Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11578

 1                           Friday, 19 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Please sit down.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation that you made to tell the truth

 9     still applies.  Mr. Behar.

10                           WITNESS:  MILUTIN FILIPOVIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Behar:

13        Q.   Good morning, sir.  My name is Eliott Behar.  I'm counsel for the

14     Prosecution, and I have a number of questions for you this morning.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness's microphones were off, the

16     interpreters did not hear what the witness said.

17             MR. BEHAR:

18        Q.   Sir, just before we get into more detailed questions, I want to

19     make sure that I'm understanding the extent of your evidence.  Both from

20     Wednesday and from when you testified in the Milutinovic trial, and we

21     will have a chance to go through things in more detail.  Right now I

22     would just like to see briefly if I understand your position.

23             You are saying, sir, first of all, there were no roadblocks or

24     check-points, certainly no barbed wire in Pristina; is that correct?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, what I said for the most part was what

Page 11579

 1     you said just now, or rather, I said that there was no barbed wire around

 2     Pristina or any check-points that prevented the unhindered movement of

 3     the population towards Pristina, outside Pristina, and within the town

 4     itself.

 5        Q.   That's right, sir.  I think, in fact, you were quite clear in

 6     your testimony there were no check-points, no barbed wire.  And you were

 7     also clear there was no destruction of any Albanian religious

 8     institution, correct?  Certainly no destruction of mosques; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes, that is absolutely correct.  Not a single Islamic place of

11     worship in the territory of Pristina had been destroyed or damaged

12     throughout the aggression, or rather, up until the moment when the

13     Kumanovo agreement was signed.

14        Q.   You were also clear, sir, there were no deportations conducted by

15     any of the Serb forces, correct?

16        A.   I said that I did not see any such deportations and also I did

17     not observe myself that anyone was deporting someone else by force.  I'm

18     not aware of any such thing, and I don't know about it.

19        Q.   You were also clear, sir, and you spoke in some detail about

20     this, the Prosecution witness Nazalie Bala couldn't possibly have made

21     any of the observations she made, just to be clear cover those, you said

22     she certainly couldn't have seen Dragodan from where she was, correct?

23        A.   What I said was that she could not see the Orthodox cemetery in

24     Pristina near Dragodan.  As for parts of the Dragodan neighbourhood,

25     perhaps it is possible to see them, some of them, but not the Orthodox

Page 11580

 1     cemetery.

 2        Q.   We can go through that in more detail, sir, but before we move

 3     on, you were also clear that she couldn't have seen from Vranjevac

 4     towards Kojlovica; correct?

 5        A.   Kojlovica, yes, towards Kojlovica, I mean, but she could not see

 6     the village of Kojlovica itself.

 7        Q.   And you said the same thing about Lukare, she couldn't have seen

 8     it, and you also added there were no tanks or armoured vehicles there in

 9     any case, correct?

10        A.   There was a military depot in Lukare of the Pristina Corps, and

11     in that part of the area, she could not see anything.  She could only

12     hear detonations from there because part of Lukare was bombed every day

13     during the aggression.

14        Q.   And, in fact, sir, despite the evidence that we've heard in this

15     case from a number of different witnesses about the events that took

16     place in Pristina after the outbreak of the war and what took place at

17     the hands of the Serb forces, your testimony is that things in Pristina

18     essentially were fine, life went on as normal; is that fair to say?

19        A.   That's not correct.  Everything was not fine in Pristina.  I said

20     that life went on in a relatively normal way in keeping with war-time

21     conditions though.  Supplies were as normal as possible.  I mean, there

22     were sufficient quantities of bread, and it was roughly as it was before

23     the war, the bread situation.

24             I said that cultural life functioned more or less as normal.

25     There was TV and radio in the Siptar language, in the Serbian language,

Page 11581

 1     in the Turkish language, and in the Roma language.  I also said that

 2     other things were going on as well in Pristina, things that are part of

 3     normal life.  The market, then the hospital.  Irrespective of war,

 4     children were born, people died, got married.  Before the aggression,

 5     during the aggression practically there was no difference.  Babies were

 6     born at the maternity ward of the Pristina hospital, and the staff there

 7     was of Siptar, Serb, Turkish ethnicity, and I know all of their names,

 8     and all of the population in Pristina was aware of that.

 9             Then in Pristina there were religious services in practically all

10     mosques, even during the NATO aggression.  Even in the three mosques that

11     were in the immediate vicinity of my command post.  That would be it in

12     the briefest possible terms.

13        Q.   I think we have your position on that.  Sir, it would appear on

14     the whole of your testimony that in short you are denying that any of the

15     allegations that have been made against the Serb forces who were

16     operating in Pristina were true, and that would involve deportations,

17     certainly murders, the use of armoured vehicles, tanks?  Essential sir,

18     none of the allegations that have been made against the Serb forces in

19     this case are accurate in your testimony; is that a fair

20     characterisation?

21        A.   No, I don't agree with what you said just now.  It is correct

22     that there were killings in Pristina, and it is true that there were dead

23     among the Serbs and Siptars and other ethnicities, but for the most part,

24     they were victims of the NATO bombing, and also of the Siptar terrorist

25     forces.

Page 11582

 1        Q.   But not by the Serb forces, sir, which is what I asked you?  The

 2     Serb forces --

 3        A.   I'm not aware of any civilian victims at the hands of the Serb

 4     forces.  I'm particularly not aware of anyone being harmed from the -- or

 5     rather by the command group or the personnel that I commanded.  As you

 6     know, I have already said that we had not fired a single bullet.  We did

 7     not point any barrels of our weapons at anyone all the way up until the

 8     end of the NATO aggression.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, I'd like to go through your evidence on

10     each of these points in more detail.

11             To begin, sir, you testified in the Milutinovic case and again

12     here that you saw columns of Kosovo Albanians fleeing Pristina, moving en

13     masse through the city, and your testimony was that these people in the

14     columns were pretending that they were faking.  As you put it, sir, this

15     was a "imitation of migration."  Do you recall saying that?

16        A.   I recall saying that, I recall that very well.  And that is,

17     indeed, what I had seen.  I actually saw this imitation several times.  I

18     can give you the details as well, what I said then and new ones that I've

19     remembered in the meantime.  Several times they passed right by my

20     command post where I was.  I even talked to certain individuals from

21     these columns.  These were fellow citizens of mine with whom I'd lived

22     for many years, I knew many of them personally.  I saw them passing by me

23     and then coming back from another direction.  I can even give you the

24     exact directions.  And that's what happened on several occasions.

25             A part of them really did move out of town.  Whereas others were

Page 11583

 1     involved in this imitation, as I called it.  Very well.

 2        Q.   We'll go step by step, sir.  You are also clear, sir, that the

 3     purpose of this fake migration was essentially an elaborate ruse by the

 4     population to help terrorists flee the country.  If we can, I'd like to

 5     look at your exact words in Milutinovic in that respect.

 6             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see D712, please.  That's at page 44.  So

 7     if we can look at line 18.

 8        Q.   The transcript is in English, sir, so I'll read it to you and

 9     you'll receive the translation.  You said:

10             "The aim" in other words the aim or the point of having these

11     columns.  "The aim, especially in the area from Ljubce to Grastica was to

12     have terrorists join those columns who threw away their weapons and fled

13     before the forces fighting them and shooting at them."

14             Do you recall saying that, sir?

15        A.   I recall having said that.

16        Q.   Now, sir, I'm going to suggest to you that there are a number of

17     problems with this claim, and I'd like to go through a number of the

18     issues as I see them, one by one.  To start with, this reason you've

19     given, you've essentially said that the reason for this enormous

20     production is false convoys that are moving through the city was so that

21     the Albanians could help terrorists to flee the country.  But, in fact,

22     sir, according to your evidence, terrorists acts were continuing and, in

23     fact, even intensifying.  Do you agree with that?

24        A.   I wouldn't agree with that as a whole.  That was just one of the

25     reasons.  One of the important reasons was to create a picture of a

Page 11584

 1     humanitarian catastrophe and migration.  As for these columns especially

 2     when they were coming from Grastica and Kacikol, they wanted the

 3     terrorists to join these columns, or rather, the terrorists would throw

 4     away their weapons and then they would join these columns.  That was a

 5     very important reason too, and it was established several times, even

 6     before the aggression but also during the aggression.

 7        Q.   But, sir, to focus on my question, do you recall in your previous

 8     testimony discussing in some detail that terrorist attacks were

 9     continuing and even intensifying throughout that time?

10        A.   Yes, very intensive terrorist attacks, both during the aggression

11     and before the aggression.  It went on all the time in the broader area

12     of Pristina, and there were many acts of terrorism committed in Pristina

13     itself by the Siptar terrorists at that.

14        Q.   So even just on your own evidence, sir, the terrorists weren't

15     fleeing the country at all, their operations were continuing, and yet

16     you've described these convoys to operate for the purpose of moving

17     terrorists out of the country?  That doesn't fit together, does it?

18        A.   No, no, that's not what I said to you.  You keep saying that I've

19     said that, but that's not what I said.  It was not to have the terrorists

20     leave the country.  It was to have the terrorists become part of those

21     columns so that they could infiltrate town again and that territory again

22     so that they could continue carrying out their terrorist activities.  So

23     it wasn't the terrorists' aim to move out of Kosovo and Metohija, rather

24     it was their aim to hide in the areas where they had been operating until

25     then to become part of the columns, leave out of town, operate out of

Page 11585

 1     town, and then operate yet again with weapons both inside town and

 2     outside town.  That is the point of what I've been trying to say.

 3        Q.   Okay, sir, well, then let's take that position and let's explore

 4     it a little bit.  If you had actually seen these large convoys that you

 5     knew to be smuggling terrorists on mass from one location to another,

 6     surely, sir, that's something that you would have had to duty to support

 7     to your superiors, correct?  You would have had an obligation to report

 8     that?

 9        A.   It's not only that it would have been my duty, I did that anyway.

10     Even if I had not done that, my Superior Command knew about this from the

11     previous period before the aggression too.  That was the method applied

12     by the Siptar terrorists.  Similar methods were applied by them earlier

13     on, too, like in 1990 when they pretended to fall dead because they had

14     been allegedly poisoned by the Serbian forces.  An entire class of school

15     children would fall in the middle of the classroom, Siptar school

16     children; whereas, Serb school children would just look at them and

17     wonder what on earth was going on, so the methodology is very similar.

18        Q.   Let's try to stay focused on the questions here, sir.  You've

19     agree, I think, that you would have had an obligation certainly to report

20     on this massive terrorist activity, so I ask you, sir, where are those

21     reports?

22        A.   There are many reports of mine that are devoted to that.  I

23     reported to the corps commander about that orally as well.  I also

24     reported to the corps command during the aggression.  I also remember

25     that I filed written reports several times, and I really do wonder where

Page 11586

 1     these reports may be.

 2        Q.   Well, I can tell you, sir, we certainly haven't seen a single one

 3     of those reports here.  Before we move on --

 4        A.   I couldn't find these reports either.  I tried to find some of

 5     them, but I couldn't because my access to archives became impossible

 6     because of the lack of care for these archives in Belgrade.  And because

 7     of the attitude of the authorities that organise these archives and treat

 8     them in a certain way.  To this day, I cannot get a single document that

 9     I signed during the aggression.  For example, I signed a document

10     allowing the establishment of a bathroom in Grmija so that all members of

11     the military could take baths.  I also signed a document stating how mail

12     should be received at the Pristina garrison.  That document isn't there

13     either, and there are eye-witnesses to that.

14        Q.   Well, sir, there may certainly be differences in obtaining

15     documents relating to the establishment of a bathroom as compared to

16     documents establishing a massive large-scale operation to move terrorists

17     throughout Pristina, but let me move on.

18             Another point, sir, and I'll put this to you directly, it seems

19     problematic --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   On the one hand, sir, you are saying that these were fake convoys

22     that were moving back and forth throughout Pristina, but you've also said

23     repeatedly in your testimony that the Kosovo Albanians did, in fact,

24     leave Pristina but they only left in order to escape the NATO bombing.

25     We can go through this step by step, sir.  Let me ask you first, do you

Page 11587

 1     recall testifying that the Kosovo Albanians left Pristina because of the

 2     NATO bombing?

 3        A.   Yes, it is quite certain that they were leaving just like the

 4     Serbs.  Siptars were leaving Pristina and the broader region because of

 5     the NATO aggression, but Serbs were leaving it too.  Also, I indicated

 6     this other very important reason.  This imitation, this false

 7     representation of immigration.  So there were examples of both.  And then

 8     there were also examples of a third and fourth kind of emigration, but I

 9     also said that there were examples of immigration into Pristina, that is

10     to say, Siptars and Serbs moving into Pristina.

11             There are many diverse reasons and types of emigration and

12     immigration.  However, the most massive movements of both Serbs and

13     Siptars were due to NATO bombings and many casualties among the Siptars

14     and Serbs due to these attacks and everything that happened due to panic

15     and propaganda in the town of Pristina.  Especially attacks against

16     infrastructure, waterworks, the telephone exchange in Pristina, the

17     transformer station, there were power cuts every day, and especially the

18     human casualties that were suffered, then --

19        Q.   Sir, if you can, let's try to keep your answers focused and

20     you'll have a chance to expand on the aspects of your answers that focus

21     on my question.  Just very briefly, sir, you've said that these large

22     movements out of Pristina began on the eve of the aggression and

23     continued and, in fact, intensified through the aggression.  Very

24     briefly, sir, is that fair, is that correct?

25        A.   Briefly put, there was immigration out of Pristina and the

Page 11588

 1     general area of Pristina before the aggression, during the aggression, as

 2     well as after the aggression.  The same goes for people moving in.

 3        Q.   And, sir, perhaps we'll just deal with this by looking at your

 4     brief testimony in the Milutinovic case.

 5             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see D712 again at page 43.  Beginning at

 6     line 12.

 7        Q.   You were quite focused here, sir, in discussing the population

 8     moving out of Pristina and you say:

 9             "It grew in intensity," as in the migration, "grew in intensity

10     especially after the air-strikes of the very centre of town, which was on

11     the 7th of April.  After that, this migration increased, especially

12     because some crucial facilities, such as the transformer station in

13     Pristina were bombed."

14             You essential repeated that on Wednesday, sir.  Do you recall

15     making that statement?

16        A.   Everything that was recorded then and everything I said then is

17     something I cannot deny now, and I don't want to.  I recall this.  I know

18     that people were moving out of Pristina in greater numbers after the 7th

19     of April including Albanian, Serbs and others because there were many

20     victims.  There were many Serbs and Siptars killed during the bombing.

21     Telephone lines were interrupted and people were in panic.

22        Q.   So, sir, your position is that somehow you were you able to tell

23     that some of the Albanians were putting on a fake show and pretending to

24     leave in large convoys while others were actually leaving in convoys, but

25     those others were only leaving because of the NATO bombing.  Does that

Page 11589

 1     make sense, sir?

 2        A.   It was a synchronised process.  Some of them were imitating the

 3     existence of a column by going around Pristina in circles.  Others moved

 4     out because of the fear of NATO bombardment and the casualties they had

 5     suffered trying to bring their children to safety.  There were also cases

 6     of people moving out of Pristina for fear of the Siptar terrorists

 7     activities, as well as losses they had experienced in particular because

 8     of their activities.

 9             But there were also great numbers of Siptars moving into Pristina

10     because the terrorists were particularly active in the general area of

11     Pristina, especially in the area of Drenica and Malisevo.  They were

12     moving into Pristina seeking refuge.  Some of that Albanian population

13     was received by the Red Cross in Pristina as well as by other local

14     authority organs in charge of that.  People were received and given

15     assistance.

16             Some of them were even received in the area of Kisnica, only 1-

17     to 200 metres away from the corps command building.  Those Siptars had

18     come from Drenica and Malisevo.  They were received there together with

19     the Serbs in the refugee centre.  They were given the same assistance

20     they -- that was accorded to the Serbs who had previously arrived from

21     Croatia and elsewhere.

22        Q.   Sir, please try, if you can, to focus on my questions and what

23     you are actually being asked.

24             Sir, you've described what is no doubt an extremely complicated

25     state of affairs that it appears you were able to discern from watching,

Page 11590

 1     perhaps even from just watching out your window.  But, sir, I'm going to

 2     suggest to you that what, in fact, took place and the explanation for

 3     what you are saying was, in fact, much simpler.  My suggestion to you,

 4     sir, is that you essentially adopted the position that was taken in the

 5     Milutinovic Defence, which was that the Albanians left because of the

 6     NATO bombing, and that you've added, as well, your own explanation, which

 7     is that the Albanians didn't leave at all, they essential just walked

 8     back and forth in the same convoys but that you found now, sir, that

 9     those positions don't fit together so you've come up with what is a

10     rather complicated and hard-to-fathom state of affairs.

11        A.   You have said quite a lot here.  I'm trying to analyse that

12     because you put a number of questions as well as a number of assertions.

13     I'll try to be concise.

14             I agree with you that the situation was complex and that the

15     reasons for people of moving in or moving out were as complex, including

16     those who tried to imitate a process of moving out.  What is the gist of

17     it all?  Part of the Serb and Albanian population had moved prior to the

18     aggression as well as during the aggression.  Parts of the population

19     moved out because of the fear of NATO bombardment.  I have explained that

20     in length.  There were many casualties, entire Albanian families were

21     killed by NATO bombs as well as many Serbs in Pristina.

22             Next some of them were moving out because they feared the Siptar

23     terrorists.  Thirdly, a number of families of Siptar terrorists as well

24     as those related to them from the general area of Pristina moved out

25     because they feared retaliation since their family members were members

Page 11591

 1     of the terrorist forces.

 2             Fourthly, some people were moving out because the situation in

 3     town was difficult.  There were power cuts, there were no telephone

 4     lines, and they could not speak to their nearest and dearest.  There were

 5     many other reasons for people moving out as well as moving in, as I've

 6     said.

 7             When we are talking about emigration, one should always bear in

 8     mind that Serbs, Roma, Albanians, the Turks, and everyone else was moving

 9     out in different ways, on foot, in vehicle, on buses, and I've already

10     explained my role in --

11        Q.   You've covered that already.  Sir, if I can just get back again

12     to the core of my question, which is the inconsistency between these two

13     basic claims, in fact, the inconsistency was first pointed out to you by

14     His Honour Judge Bonomy when you testified in the Milutinovic case, and

15     perhaps we can look at that.

16             MR. BEHAR:  It's at again D712.  It's at page -- I only have the

17     transcript reference for this, it's T-19194.  If we can have that up.

18        Q.   If we just look here at line 18, sir, I think we'll see that your

19     explanation here is relatively more straightforward, and it appears to

20     have become more and more complex.  At line 18 Judge Bonomy asks you:

21             "Are these different columns from the ones that were migrating to

22     escape the bombs?"

23             And he appears to be have been somewhat surprised by your

24     position there, and you responded:

25             "Well, my answer is as follows:  Some of those columns behaved in

Page 11592

 1     the way I have just described.  Some citizens really fled to escape the

 2     bombs.  They were concerned and frightened of the bombing.  Some had had

 3     relatives killed or wounded by the bombs.  And these were civilians

 4     fleeing."

 5             Then you said:

 6             "However, there were many of those that I've just described who

 7     were simply pretending to migrate, and these were more numerous than the

 8     former category.  At least as far as the town of Pristina is concerned."

 9             Do you recall that exchange with Judge Bonomy, sir, that answer?

10        A.   I fully recall this answer.  I see nothing that would be in

11     dispute in it.

12        Q.   And so your answer when you were first met with this

13     inconsistency was a simple one, there were different columns of Albanians

14     moving throughout the city, some of those you were able to tell were fake

15     convoys but others were real convoys, and you were apparently also able

16     to tell that those people were only leaving because of the NATO bombing.

17     Is that accurate?

18        A.   Everything I said is correct for sure.  There's no reason for it

19     to be any other way other than the way I described it and the way I

20     experienced it.  I can confirm the same thing now.  I used to see

21     citizens in columns who would move about Pristina in the morning and then

22     in the afternoon they would pass by me again.  I recognised among them

23     Adem Demaci as one of those escorting those columns, he was a famous

24     terrorist.  He was always part of that column and always came back.  He

25     didn't leave Pristina for a single day.  He moved about safely.  He did

Page 11593

 1     not flee; whereas, I saw many others who did pass by and never returned.

 2     That's the essence.  I see nothing in dispute or anything contradictory

 3     in my answer.

 4        Q.   I think we have your position on that point, sir.  Let's move to

 5     a slightly different topic.

 6             Sir, you came here on Wednesday and on your own you went into

 7     detail about depleted uranium.  And if we can, let's look at one of those

 8     passages.

 9             MR. BEHAR:  If we could look at the testimony from Wednesday from

10     this case, that's T-11559.  I'm told that we can actually bring that up.

11        Q.   If we just look at beginning at line 19, you were asked, the

12     question was a simple one:

13             "Did you have any information about -- about what was used in the

14     bombing?  What kind of equipment?"

15             Your answer was:

16             "I had a lot of information.  I had practically daily insight."

17     And then you went on to say, "I can document many things from that field,

18     particularly the fact that the broader area of Pristina was bombed with

19     projectiles that contained depleted uranium."

20             Do you recall saying that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Sir, you had, in fact, never mentioned anything before about

23     depleted uranium, had you, in this court, when you testified in the

24     Milutinovic trial, you never used the words "depleted uranium," had you?

25        A.   I don't recall everything I said, but it must be recorded.  What

Page 11594

 1     is on the record is something I must have said.  And let me tell you

 2     this:  I haven't uttered many a thing and I won't even today because

 3     there is simply no time.  I could go on and on about the methods and

 4     means used against the population of Kosovo, Serbs, Albanian, Turks, Roma

 5     and others.  The plight was so great that it is difficult for me to go

 6     through all of the reasons.

 7        Q.   I know you can't sir, and let's just focus on my question.  I

 8     think tell you that you, in fact, never mentioned the words "depleted

 9     uranium."  You certainly never mentioned it in the Milutinovic case, but

10     you did, in fact, discuss the NATO bombing at great length during your

11     testimony.  Would you agree with that, sir, you did, in fact, go into

12     great detail about the NATO bombing, correct?  Just yes or no?

13        A.   I spoke extensively about NATO bombardment.  In the last case,

14     the Milutinovic case, I didn't mention any planes that were shot down,

15     but that could have been seen by many inhabitants of Pristina.  There are

16     many things I didn't mention but nonetheless, they took place in Pristina

17     and its broader area.  I didn't even mention many chemical incidents,

18     although such things occurred, many inhabitants of Pristina suffered from

19     such attacks.

20        Q.   And yet, sir, despite not having mentioned this when you

21     testified in detail about people fleeing the city because of NATO

22     bombing, you are now saying that you had firsthand knowledge of depleted

23     uranium use and, in fact, sir, you've testified that you were personally

24     handling and dealing with depleted uranium projectiles out in the field,

25     correct?

Page 11595

 1        A.   Yes, it is correct.

 2        Q.   Did you discuss this issue about depleted uranium with anyone

 3     before you testified here today, sir?

 4        A.   As far as I recall, I discussed that topic a few years ago

 5     constantly with other citizens, friends of mine from the army and outside

 6     the army about depleted uranium.  There were many entities that undertook

 7     checks about the effects of such ammunition.  There were many of them

 8     handling that issue before and now there are less and less because

 9     unfortunately it seems to be the policy now.

10        Q.   Just to focus again on the very specific question, sir.  Before

11     you testified here on Wednesday, before you began your testimony, did you

12     discuss the issue of depleted uranium with anyone, I can be specific, did

13     you discuss it with anyone who had an interest in this case?

14        A.   No, not that.  I did not discuss it that way, and there was no

15     need for me.  I was not trying to gain additional information.  I'm only

16     talking about what I could see and observe myself.  Many people suffered

17     the consequences of such attacks, and many people are still being treated

18     for consequences of that type of ammunition including the military,

19     medical clinic, and other health institutions.

20        Q.   Are you aware, sir, that issues surrounding depleted uranium seem

21     to now have become an issue in this case?  Is that something that you are

22     aware of or that you were aware of before you began your testimony on

23     Wednesday?

24        A.   Even before my arrival here, I heard that depleted uranium was

25     discussed here among other things.  It was used, it is a generally known

Page 11596

 1     thing, and I don't think that needs to be proven separately.

 2        Q.   Sir, how did you hear that depleted uranium was being discussed

 3     here?

 4        A.   I heard of depleted uranium being discussed here in the

 5     Milutinovic case.  As far as I recall, it was a topic then as well.  As

 6     well as later.  I could read in our press about that.

 7        Q.   Sir, we've already covered the fact that you didn't mention

 8     depleted uranium once when you testified in the Milutinovic case.  What

 9     I'd like to know is that you mentioned "before my arrival here, I heard

10     that depleted uranium was discussed here among other things."  What I

11     would like to know is, how did you hear that, who did you speak to?

12        A.   As I've said, from the media.  I heard of the use off uranium

13     from the media.  I also had that information during the aggression

14     because our units tasked with providing anti-nuclear and chemical

15     security measures were familiar with that.  I knew about that at the time

16     as well.

17        Q.   I know that, sir, what I'm trying to focus on is how you

18     discovered that it was an issue in this case before you testified.  You

19     are saying that you heard that in the media.  Do you mean, sir, that you

20     read in the media that the use of depleted uranium was being used in the

21     Djordjevic case?  Am I understanding that correctly?  This was being

22     discussed, this was now an issue?

23        A.   I didn't go much into it the Djordjevic case.  I was here for

24     other tasks and duties as well.  I'm not particularly interested in this

25     case.  I could follow the media just as any other citizen.  As for the

Page 11597

 1     use of depleted uranium in Kosovo, I received information from the media.

 2     I think it was carried by the world press as well.

 3        Q.   Well, sir, it doesn't seem like I'm going to get an answer from

 4     you with respect to where you heard this information or if you spoke to

 5     anyone before coming here on Wednesday, but I'll put to you, sir, the

 6     suggestion that, in fact, what has happened here is that you've received

 7     information somehow that depleted uranium, the use of depleted uranium,

 8     is a live issue in this case, and you've therefore come and testified in

 9     detail about your personal experience with depleted uranium on the ground

10     in Kosovo in order to further that line of defence.  Do you agree with

11     that, sir?

12        A.   I don't.  There's no reason to back anyone up in particular or

13     further anything.  I told you that I had information of such missiles

14     myself.  There are many witnesses to that, I even organised an exhibition

15     in front of my command building to the north-west of the Pristina mosque.

16     All citizens could see that there were Tomahawk stabilisers, cluster

17     bombs stabilisers, and parts of cluster bombs.  There were signatures of

18     personnel who put their signatures on parts of those ammunitions.  The TV

19     Belgrade took footage of that.  Magoci [phoen] was the cameraman, and the

20     reporter was another Albanian.  The whole world could see that.

21        Q.   Sir, while we were on the topic of depleted uranium, let me take

22     you to particular portion of your testimony on this point.

23             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see again from the Djordjevic trial,

24     T-11560.  And we'll look beginning at line 17.

25        Q.   You were asked, sir, of the question:

Page 11598

 1             "I asked you about the location where you were where depleted

 2     uranium was used and how come you know?"

 3             And you answered:

 4             "I caught these projectiles with my own hands in the area of

 5     Donja Grmija.  That is the untoward thing that I did.  And I brought them

 6     to Pristina so that all citizens could see them.  And, to this day, I

 7     suffer the effects of that."

 8             Now, unless you are a truly remarkable man, sir, I'm assuming

 9     that you didn't actually catch a projectile with your hands, perhaps that

10     was an error of interpretation, but if I understand what you are saying

11     correctly, you are testifying that you picked up a depleted uranium

12     projectile with your own hands; is that correct?

13        A.   It is not.  I don't know what you gathered from that, but I would

14     very much like you to understand what I'm trying to say.  I took parts of

15     those projectiles, there's nothing in question there.  There are

16     countless witnesses to that.  There seems to be a mistake, though, and I

17     stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, I don't think it was in the area of

18     Grmija.  Even if it was, there is no problem there.  I think it was

19     Brnjica, although in the general area of Grmija there were parts of such

20     missiles found.  So the general area of Pristina, Gornja Brnjica , Donija

21     Brnjica, the general area of Devet Jugovica, and other parts of on the

22     outskirts of Pristina.  We collected such missile parts.  I even wanted

23     to present you with a list of those parts.  We put up an entire

24     exhibition in front of the building command, both Siptars and Serbs could

25     see it.  At the time it served as an encouragement to the citizens in

Page 11599

 1     order to convince them not to move out.  We were trying to tell them,

 2     well, if we are holding these pieces in our hands, then they are not a

 3     danger to you, but it seems that we were wrong believing they wouldn't

 4     leave no matter what.

 5        Q.   So if I understand correctly, sir, your testimony is that you

 6     picked up a projectile or at least parts of a projectile that had fallen

 7     from a plane and presumably not exploded, and you not only carried it

 8     around yourself but you brought it back to show to civilians; is that

 9     accurate?

10        A.   My primary intention was not to show it to the civilians.  We put

11     them there in front of the building so that we could see them and whoever

12     would pass by, Serb, Siptars, whoever would pass by.  Let the population

13     see them, that's why we brought them there.  You say unexploded, I don't

14     know how come you said that because I never said that.  I guess that I

15     have enough military training to know not to take any unexploded

16     projectiles.

17        Q.   Well, perhaps it's a simple question, sir, but if it had

18     exploded, then would you have anything to bring back?

19        A.   Of course, of course I would.  Do you know of the theory that

20     there is no perpetuum mobile so you can find scattered about pieces on

21     the ground.  Even when aircraft exploded, there were parts scattered

22     about in a wide area.  To this day, there are some parts of that aircraft

23     at the museum in Surcin near Belgrade.  There's always something left.

24        Q.   Sir, just before we move on, there's something I'm having trouble

25     understanding.  You just testified that your primary intention was not to

Page 11600

 1     show it, these projectiles, to civilians, but if we look up to line 15 of

 2     page 21, you in fact, said something to the effect that at the time you

 3     put these, used these projectiles as an encouragement to the citizens.  I

 4     see I've lost the reference on the page, but it appears, sir, that you

 5     just testified that you put these pieces of projectiles in front of your

 6     building in order to show to civilians?

 7        A.   Viewed from this distance, that's exactly the way it seemed.  If

 8     we are standing by them, then there's no reason for civilians to run away

 9     from them.  Let them see what was thrown on all of us, irrespective of

10     ethnicity.  That was done from submarines in the Mediterranean, from the

11     Adriatic Sea, from the air.  Let them see what was being thrown at all of

12     us together, so now what is in dispute there?  The fact that they saw it?

13     That we all saw it?  That there is television footage showing that?  TV

14     Belgrade recorded that, and then it was broadcast by media all over the

15     world.

16        Q.   I think your position is clear, sir, and what you've said is

17     that, just to back this up, sir, you've spent your career in the

18     military, you certainly understand and know projectiles well, and you

19     know what would be dangerous and what would not, and you took these

20     projectiles and you, in fact, put on a display to show the civilians of

21     Pristina that there was nothing to fear here.  Is that fair to say, sir,

22     I think I just repeated your evidence back to you?

23        A.   Well, no, no, I said what I said, and now the way you recounted

24     it doesn't really turn out exactly the way I had put it, but the point is

25     that it wasn't only me.  My associates as well were involved in this.  I

Page 11601

 1     didn't go to pick all of this up by myself.  It's not that I just

 2     happened to know that these projectiles were found somewhere.  I was -- I

 3     received information that there were pieces in various parts and then I

 4     went there with my officers and NCOs and also the British KFOR troops saw

 5     that because they came there, they took up the area around the mosque.

 6     When I left, as I was leaving, I saw them see the projectiles too.

 7        Q.   So sir, what you've said, again just to sum this up and put it

 8     back to you, you, sir, as a man who spent a career in the military,

 9     picked up and handled parts of a projectile that you say contained

10     depleted uranium, you then brought that back, and you bought on a display

11     to show to the civilians that there was nothing to be feared here.  So

12     surely then, sir, civilians, Albanian civilians, would not be fleeing

13     because of depleted uranium fragments that had been dropped on Kosovo.

14     Do you agree with that?  Is that fair to say?

15        A.   All I do not agree with you that that is the way you can put it.

16     There were areas because they were marked or rather, our units had the

17     duty to mark certain areas especially units that were in charge of PN

18     HBO, that is to say, anti-nuclear chemical warfare focused on the 52nd

19     Battalion, the ABHO Battalion that was commanded by then Captain 1st

20     Class Aleksic Andric.  Areas were marked, then the possibility was

21     indicated, or rather, before the aggression there was certain knowledge

22     of that possibility, I'm not sure now, but I think that the media also

23     reported about that possibility.  Not only in our country in Serbia or

24     rather, in Yugoslavia but also worldwide, the projectiles with the

25     depleted uranium could be used, and after all 30.000, over 30.000

Page 11602

 1     projectiles were used in Kosovo and Metohija or rather, our country that

 2     was established later on.  That is the figure as far as depleted uranium

 3     is concerned.

 4        Q.   Let's not engage in a wild speculation here, sir.  What I'm

 5     saying very simply is, at first, you a trained military man, someone who

 6     knows projectiles well and is surrounded by people with expertise, you

 7     even talk about chemical units, you are saying you went and picked up

 8     fragments that contained depleted uranium, so obviously you are not

 9     fearful and had apparently no reason to be fearful at that time given

10     what you knew, correct?

11        A.   Well, I would not agree with all of that that you said because I

12     mean, well, I'm not much of an expert for that.  I'm an expert in a great

13     many other things in the military, but I knew that in addition to other

14     things.  I expressed an interest, and after all, I passed a test in that

15     area.  I even took tests in the field of the air force in general in the

16     navy, et cetera, so this is an auxiliary thing as far as I'm concerned,

17     but there's no doubt that I know a great deal.  Irrespective of that

18     knowledge, I did what I did, and it wasn't my first time.  I knew that

19     explosives were dangerous, but once in 1972 I had a small accident in

20     respect of that and after all, many people do things against their actual

21     knowledge and then they suffer the consequences.  And I don't see

22     anything that is questionable in all of this that I've said.

23        Q.   Very well, sir.  Let's of move briefly now, if we can, to a

24     different topic.  You testified, sir, about some leaflets that were found

25     in Pristina that had asked the Albanians to leave the country.  Do you

Page 11603

 1     recall testifying to that effect?

 2        A.   I do recall that.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see P419.  Also actually if we could see

 4     it in the original Albanian.

 5        Q.   Sir, is this the leaflet you were referring to?  It appears to be

 6     the same in content as the exhibit you referred to in Milutinovic, but

 7     perhaps you can tell us?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, that's the leaflet.  That's it.  You can see the red

 9     colour now as opposed to earlier on, so yes, that is the leaflet.

10        Q.   And, I just want to be clear, sir, before we move on, on

11     Wednesday when us testified you mentioned that NATO had dropped leaflets

12     from a plane, but that wasn't this KLA leaflet which -- that you

13     discussed in your Milutinovic testimony, was it?  Let me restate the

14     question.  It wasn't this KLA leaflet that was dropped from a NATO plane,

15     correct?

16        A.   Most probably it wasn't.  I cannot confirm whether that was or

17     was not the case, but most probably that was not the case because when

18     these leaflets were found, at that time I have no information to the

19     effect that they were seen in the air or found in the air.  They were

20     found on the ground, as opposed to the leaflets or flyers that were

21     dropped from planes because you could see them falling after NATO

22     aircraft would fly by especially B-52s.

23        Q.   Right.

24             MR. BEHAR:  And perhaps if we could see, this is again from the

25     Djordjevic trial, T-11378.

Page 11604

 1        Q.   This is the testimony of Milos Dosan.  Sir, you may be familiar

 2     with him.  He states, this is at line 22, looking at the same leaflet:

 3             "Yes, I'm familiar with this leaflet, but it was not dropped from

 4     aircraft."

 5             Again he reiterates that a couple of times.  Is that consistent

 6     with your understanding as well?

 7        A.   I know General Milos Dosan, he is a good friend of mine from the

 8     days of the aggression and later on as well.  As for this particular

 9     statement, I would like to ask you to repeat it to me so that I could

10     give you a more precise answer.

11        Q.   Certainly, sir.  I'm really just showing you Mr. Dosan's

12     testimony.  He had indicated on several occasions that he was familiar

13     with this leaflet but that it was not dropped from an aircraft.

14     Actually, if we can scroll down to 11379, line 19.  He says there:

15             "These leaflets were found across town, they were not dropped

16     from aircraft, and an officer brought them to the command."

17             Again, is that consistent, sir, with your experience?  These were

18     not leaflets that were dropped from aircraft and were, in fact, found

19     throughout town?

20        A.   My experience should be similar to that, or rather, I assume that

21     it had not been dropped from aircraft because the persons who brought

22     this leaflet to me, and I have already said that I had found a leaflet

23     like that by myself in Pristina, so the persons who found this one told

24     me that they found it on the ground.  I never looked up and I did not see

25     it falling from an aircraft.  So it is my assumption, therefore, that it

Page 11605

 1     had not been dropped from an aircraft, and I think that the assumption is

 2     well-founded.

 3        Q.   Now, it was, in fact, a practice that the MUP sometimes used to

 4     distribute leaflets to the population, correct?

 5        A.   Well, I'm not aware of that practice.  I didn't observe it, at

 6     any rate.  If you have some information, well, I cannot go into that.  I

 7     do not remember that because that was not within my job description to

 8     register that and remember that.  Even if that did happen, I personally

 9     do not remember it.

10        Q.   For example, sir, in late 1998, the MUP used leaflets asking

11     certain Kosovo Albanians to return to their villages.  Do you recall

12     that?

13        A.   I do recall that, but my memory is hazy.  As for the

14     concentration of my thoughts, I did not focus on that.  My preoccupations

15     were different, within my own line of work, that is.

16             MR. BEHAR:  Can we see P483, please.

17        Q.   Perhaps this may be familiar to you, sir.  If we just look at

18     page 2 at the bottom, it's the first bullet point under the third section

19     there.  It says -- this is actually diplomatic correspondence from the

20     Austrian embassy, sir, but they're addressing the point that we just

21     discussed that you recall but you said your memory is a bit hazy.  It's a

22     comment that they say:

23             "Text of MUP flyer and way of distribution not the right way to

24     encourage the return of IDPs."

25             And what that's referring to is the MUP's use of flyers, as we've

Page 11606

 1     discussed, to communicate with the Albanian populace.  Perhaps that may

 2     not refresh your memory too much, but does that assist you in any way in

 3     remembering anything about this flyer, or this practice?

 4        A.   Thank you for this guidance.  However, as regards this document,

 5     I can hardly be of any assistance to you.  It's not for lack of wanting.

 6     I mean, I would really like to help you, you but objectively speaking I

 7     cannot hardly say anything to you about this document because I haven't

 8     got a lot of information about it or rather, I have no information.  I

 9     told you that I was involved in a different line of work.  Irrespective

10     of that, I have no recollection of this.  I am available to you to answer

11     all your questions that have to do with things that I do know, but I

12     don't think that I can be of much use in this particular regard.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I think you've told us what you recall, and I

14     appreciate that.  As someone who has extensive experience in the army,

15     sir, would you agree that propaganda is a tool that's sometimes or often

16     used in times of war?

17        A.   Yes, I fully agree with you on that.

18        Q.   And, in fact, sir, we've had specific evidence in this case that

19     the Serb forces distributed these leaflets, the KLA leaflet that you were

20     looking at, as part of a propaganda campaign to have the Albanians leave

21     Kosovo.  I'll take you to a specific passage.

22             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see, this is again from the Djordjevic

23     case, it's T-2232.  So just to be clear, it's the transcript reference

24     from Djordjevic T-2232.  It's witness -- it's the testimony of Adnan

25     Merovci.

Page 11607

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is Adem Demaqi [as

 2     interpreted], is he a well-known terrorist.  He was convicted on several

 3     occasions and served over 20 years in prison in Yugoslavia.

 4             MR. BEHAR:  I'll give you a chance to comment on that.  What I'm

 5     interested, sir, is a comment on the content of what he said, not on his

 6     general reliability.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thought that the

 9     interpreter had indicated to us that there was a mistake.  We heard that

10     that was the witness Adem Demaqi who was heard in these proceedings.  I

11     would just like to tell my colleague Mr. Behar to know that I mean, so

12     that he could tell us exactly what the name of the witness was, because

13     obviously it wasn't heard properly.

14             MR. BEHAR:  I appreciate that, for my learned friend.  It was

15     Adnan Merovci is the witness.

16        Q.   Sir, this is the testimony of Mr. Merovci.  You may know him, he

17     lived in Pristina, and he worked closely with Mr. Rugova.  I'd like to

18     have your comment on this passage, just on the content of what he is

19     saying.  If we look at line 20, he's asked:

20             "Did you have the opportunity to see any of these pamphlets that

21     were distributed?"

22             And he answers that he saw them in the hallway before the

23     entrance to his flat.  And he goes on to say:

24             "I took it -- took a copy of it and saw that it was mere

25     propaganda, both in terms of its content and the way it was formulated,

Page 11608

 1     general layout of the pamphlet.  It contained many errors, and there was

 2     a discrepancy between what it said and the insignia and the person who

 3     had signed it.  On top, there was a KLA insignia and then signed below it

 4     was signed by Mr. Rugova.  When, as you well know, Mr. Rugova led the LDK

 5     and the Kosovo liberation army was led by other people.  This shows that

 6     it was a way to strike fear and panic among the population, because that,

 7     the text was full of mistakes in Albanian which shows it was not done by

 8     professionals."

 9             And he goes on somewhat in that vein but he is asked just below:

10             "And at the time did Mr. Rugova have any sort of contact with the

11     KLA?"

12             And he responds:

13             "No, he did not."

14             Now, sir, I wanted to invite your comment on Mr. Merovci's

15     testimony in that regard.  First, that this was a document of propaganda.

16     Second, that there's a discrepancy between the KLA heading and a

17     signature by Mr. Rugova when, in fact, Mr. Rugova was not even in contact

18     with the KLA at that time.  Can you comment on that, sir?

19        A.   Well, since you are putting this question to me, I shall try to

20     be of assistance to you and to give you some comments.

21             First of all, this mistake that happened, the name I heard in

22     interpretation was Adem Demaqi, later on it was correct, so it's Adnan

23     Merovci, no problem whatsoever.  As for that flyer or leaflet, I cannot

24     deal with it in depth in terms of which way this analysis is going,

25     whether it is this or that type of propaganda.

Page 11609

 1             At any rate, it is propaganda.  Now, what kind of mistakes are

 2     involved and whether there are any, I cannot really help you very much on

 3     that either.  However, as to whether it is contrary to the ideas of the

 4     so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, in fact, these are terrorists forces

 5     and somebody called named them the liberation army or named them the

 6     liberation army because that's what suited their purposes, and

 7     Mr. Rugova, well, I really could not speak about that.  That is a

 8     generally known thing, that there were different lines involved, a soft

 9     line and a hard-line, part of the movement, but all of these wings and

10     fractions were aimed in the same direction, and that direction is

11     terrorist activity, and the main objective was the cessation of Kosovo

12     and Metohija from Serbia contrary to international law and contrary to

13     the constitution, laws, et cetera.  So these were wings that had some

14     views that differed but their objective was the same.  By way of

15     assistance to you, that would be my comment.

16        Q.   Sir, I know that you don't know who produced the leaflet, but

17     does it not seem clear to you that material like this would have been

18     produced by the Serb forces, because it was the Serb forces, if anyone,

19     who wanted the Albanians to leave the territory, not the Albanians.  Do

20     you agree with that?

21        A.   I do not agree with that.  I completely disagree because, first

22     of all, this was never produced by the Serb forces, nor would have the

23     Serb forces ever produced that kind of thing.  Especially not for the

24     purpose of moving the Siptars out of Kosovo and Metohija.  The Serb

25     forces produced many things in order to have a larger population in

Page 11610

 1     Kosovo and Metohija, not to have the population move out.  The

 2     authorities of Serbia built infrastructure in Kosovo and Metohija,

 3     promoted health care, education, population levels.  As a matter of fact,

 4     they did their best to have the Serbian population move out and the

 5     Siptar population remain there.  That is tellingly demonstrated by

 6     statistics and a whole lot of other things and after all, you have all

 7     that information available to you here.

 8        Q.   Sir, you have already been clear that your position is that the

 9     KLA wanted Kosovo to be an independent state for the Kosovo Albanians.

10     You just, in fact, said a couple of minutes ago that the main objective

11     was the cessation of Kosovo from Serbia.  Given that state of affairs,

12     sir, why on earth would the KLA or anyone else on the Albanian side be

13     trying to get the Albanians to flee the country and leave it to the

14     Serbs?  Does that make any sense?

15        A.   It makes all the sense there is.  You also put a question a

16     minute ago to that effect.  Of course it makes sense.  When you were

17     putting a question, you said that many in the world use propaganda, and I

18     confirmed it to be true.  If it were not, Hitler would not have burned

19     down Reichstag and accused someone else for it.  I guess you are familiar

20     with that.  It's basic literature.  That's what propaganda is for, to

21     accuse someone else for one's own benefit.  And to twist the reality.

22             Such propaganda was used by the NATO Alliance as well, because

23     they were delivering pamphlets from the B-52 airplanes.  Many lies were

24     contained there, for example, the name of Zeljko Pekovic, a major, is

25     stated as the commander of the 52nd Military Police Battalion.  Whereas

Page 11611

 1     it is obvious that this leaflet was drafted in NATO before the aggression

 2     because that major in question handed over that battalion in June 1998 to

 3     Major Zeljko Kopanja.  He was the newer commander, whereas the old

 4     commander went to attend the staff school and yet we had this leaflet

 5     with his name dropped from a plane.  Go ahead.

 6        Q.   I think I'm losing track of you a little bit, I think we may have

 7     gone a little far off base.  What I'm trying to understand, sir, is how

 8     it would make any sense if the intention of the KLA was to create an

 9     independent Kosovo, a state essentially as you are saying, for Albanians

10     and how did does it make sense for the KLA to be asking or demanding that

11     all the Albanians leave Kosovo?  Those two things seem antithetical to

12     me.

13        A.   I don't think these are two contradictory things.  They are in

14     close relation in order to put up an appearance of a humanitarian

15     catastrophe so that the NATO Alliance can have justification for their

16     actions.  And I believe you also know how close the co-operation was

17     between the NATO Alliance and Siptar terrorist forces.  You saw the

18     photographs in which Clark and Jackson and Tachi are shaking hands and

19     kissing.  It's a generally known thing, those pictures toured the world.

20        Q.   Sir, these leaflets were distributed -- I know I'm running

21     slightly over, maybe I'll just try and wrap up this area.  These leaflets

22     were distributed at the outset of the bombing, correct?

23        A.   Not correct.  Whose leaflets were found all across the territory

24     of Pristina and the general area of it?  That's what I know.  Later on I

25     heard that they could be found elsewhere as well.  However, I'm only

Page 11612

 1     talking about Pristina and its general area, in the areas which were

 2     bombed and in others which were not.

 3        Q.   But the leaflets that you were talking about, sir, that you found

 4     or that were given to you, those were distributed after the bombing, as I

 5     understand it, correct?  I'm not sure we picked up the interpretation,

 6     but your answer was yes?

 7        A.   No.  Many leaflets were found.  However, these leaflets, this red

 8     one signed by Rugova and the so-called KLA or the Siptar terrorist

 9     organisation, such pamphlets were found in Pristina.  I've already told

10     you that I found one and brought it in.  There were other leaflets that

11     were found thrown out of airplanes with the picture of the flying

12     fortress B-52.  All unit commanders were called to surrender otherwise

13     they would be flattened by carpet bombing.

14        Q.   Sir, I think we are going off topic here.

15        A.   And after such a threat --

16             MR. BEHAR:  Let me stop you.  I do want to follow that up, but I

17     see we are already over our time for the break.  Perhaps this is a good

18     time, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have our first break.  We will resume at

20     five minutes past 12.00.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

Page 11613

 1             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Sir, just before we begin again, I'm going to ask if you can

 3     really make an effort to focus on my questions and answer as briefly as

 4     possible.  I will give you a chance, as we go forward, to answer other

 5     specific areas, but we do only have a limited amount of time.

 6             When we left off before the break, sir, you had said that the KLA

 7     may have distributed these leaflets or that they may have been

 8     distributed, I suppose, by anyone to put up an appearance of a

 9     humanitarian catastrophe to justify NATO getting involved.  But, in fact,

10     sir, by the time these leaflets were distributed and certainly by the

11     time you encountered them, the NATO bombing had already started, correct?

12        A.   I'll try to be concise in my answers so that we may save some

13     time together.  I always try not to have to mention the abbreviation KLA,

14     and even if I do, you should bear in mind that I mean the Siptar

15     terrorist forces.  It is true that they used any available means to

16     influence the population, depending on their goals.

17        Q.   Sir, let me stop you again, I don't want to get off on the wrong

18     track here.  My question is a very specific one.  At the time that you

19     found this leaflet, had the NATO bombing already commenced?

20        A.   The period when I found that leaflet, although I don't recall the

21     date, but it was definitely after the 24th of March, 1999, to the best of

22     my recollection, that is.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, when we had looked earlier at the KLA

24     leaflet, you could see that it purports to be from Ibrahim Rugova, signed

25     by Mr. Rugova as president of the Republic of Kosovo.

Page 11614

 1             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see P286, please.

 2        Q.   Sir, I can tell you that Mr. Rugova, in fact, testify about this

 3     issue in the Milosevic trial, he was asked about this leaflet by

 4     Mr. Milosevic himself.

 5             MR. BEHAR:  If we look at page 141.  At line 9.

 6        Q.   Mr. Milosevic asks him:

 7             "You are appealing to the population of Kosovo to go to Albania

 8     and to Macedonia?"

 9             Mr. Rugova responds:

10             "This is not true.  This was issued in the first days of the

11     bombing, so as you can see in the document, here is the stamp of the KLA

12     and the signature of the president of Kosova, but it's not my document

13     and it's clearly not of the KLA.  I don't know who did it, but it was

14     circulated in Prishtina.  It was a forged document of some kind, either

15     the police, or Belgrade, or the troops, or other people, they did it."

16             So, sir, Mr. Rugova has been clear that he had no part in

17     drafting this leaflet, that it was not from the KLA.  Were you aware of

18     that?

19        A.   I was not, but judging by the words of Mr. Rugova, there is

20     nothing in question here.  He may well be right.  He probably said the

21     truth, that he was not behind it.  But as far as I could see, at least

22     from what I could hear you said, was that Mr. Rugova said "or some other

23     people."  This phrase is very important.  I don't know who created it,

24     but I can suppose.  It is quite certain that it was created by the Siptar

25     terrorist forces.

Page 11615

 1        Q.   Sir, we've heard already evidence that these leaflets were

 2     distributed to several parts of the city.  The people who could circulate

 3     freely within Pristina at the beginning of the bombing were, in fact, the

 4     military, the police, possibly paramilitary groups and no one else.  Do

 5     you agree with that, sir?

 6        A.   I don't.  Not at all.  And this is why, I will be very brief.

 7     Please bear with me.  Take the example of Ms. Nazalie Bala and Miomir

 8     Irovci [phoen].  These two witnesses appeared here, they freely moved

 9     about town in Pristina itself and its general area.  One day after

10     another.  And one of them even left Kosovo and returned on a number of

11     occasions completely freely, and they could speak of what they saw in the

12     entire town, and Ms. Nazalie Bala even said that she went to work

13     regularly crossing the Dragodan bridge on the way.  This is in brief

14     terms.  One would freely move about Pristina and its environs.

15        Q.   Sir, that was certainly not Ms. Bala's testimony.  This Court has

16     heard that evidence, and I will return to that topic.  Let me move to a

17     different topic.  Sir, we discussed that one of your claims was that the

18     Albanians left Kosovo, and in particular left Pristina because of the

19     NATO bombing, we know that was part of what you said.  Sir, you testified

20     that Gracanica was very close to Pristina, correct?  Was about 8 or 9

21     kilometres away?

22        A.   Yes, Gracanica is quite close to Pristina.  Well, we can discuss

23     the term "relative," but I used to live there.  I went to school to

24     Gracanica.  In any case, one could say it's close.

25        Q.   I know that you know the village well, sir, and I know that you

Page 11616

 1     told us as well that is where your father from, but Gracanica is

 2     essentially a Serbian village, correct?

 3        A.   For the most part in Gracanica, there has always been the Serbs

 4     in the majority.  There is a number of Roma families and a single Siptar

 5     family.  It is the Lekaj family, Nikola Lekaj's family.  He lived there

 6     before the aggression and continued working there during and after the

 7     aggression baking bread.  It is the only family there.

 8        Q.   I think you were just about to say it was the -- perhaps we'll

 9     leave that, sir, but it was, in fact, the largest -- had the largest

10     Serbian population in Kosovo, correct?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  In terms of the number of Serbs, that village had the

12     greatest number of Serbs in Kosovo.

13        Q.   And you told us on Wednesday that you had, in fact, toured that

14     town during the war and you were there several times, correct?

15        A.   Yes, I did tour it and pass through it.

16        Q.   You were also very clear in your testimony on Wednesday that

17     Gracanica was bombed very heavily by NATO, in fact, you said they were

18     essentially bombed every single day by NATO; is that also correct?

19        A.   When I said that I had in mind the general area of Gracanica.

20     That is correct.  Many citizens of Gracanica could feel the consequences.

21     Even the Gracanica monastery was damaged.  Many walls cracked.  It is an

22     ancient monastery from 1250.

23        Q.   Sir, you're also very clear in your testimony that life in

24     Gracanica went on as usual, and I can quote back to you here.  You

25     said -- this reference for my friend is at T-11539, line 16.  You stated:

Page 11617

 1             "So life went on in Gracanica just as usual although the area

 2     around Gracanica was bombed practically every day by NATO."

 3             And you repeated again at line 20:

 4             "Detonations were heard every day but life went on unhindered as

 5     much as possible."

 6             So in fact, sir, this Serbian village was being bombed heavily by

 7     NATO every day but life went on as usual, people weren't fleeing town,

 8     they certainly weren't streaming across the borders, correct?

 9        A.   That is partially true.  Many inhabitants of Gracanica moved out,

10     but a lot of people remained living there.  In Gracanica there was even a

11     post office which covered the general area.  In that post office

12     throughout the aggression all citizens came to collect their pensions

13     there.  Among others, the Siptars from the village of Mramor, Slivovo,

14     Ajvalija, Suskovac [phoen], Dragovac, so even Siptars came there on mass

15     to collect their pensions throughout the aggression in the centre of

16     Gracanica unhindered, and Nikola Lekaj was baking bread there, he is a

17     Siptar from Gracanica, and he was never bothered whatsoever.

18        Q.   I think we have your answer, sir, which is that people remained

19     living there, and we have your prior testimony that life went on as

20     usual.  But, sir, it would seem a little backward to me that NATO was

21     fighting against Serb forces not against the Albanians certainly, one

22     would think that if anyone would flee the NATO bombing, it would have

23     been those Serbians -- those Serb civilians living in the Serb village

24     that's being bombed every day, but they did not flee, correct?

25        A.   No, it's not.  Part of the population fled, the other part

Page 11618

 1     stayed.  Well, they didn't flee, they simply moved away.  Although, most

 2     of them remained, some left though.

 3             Secondly, Siptars as well as Serbs suffered from NATO

 4     bombardment.  One needs to bear in mind, there were casualties in both

 5     groups, dead and wounded.  There is statistical data and you could easily

 6     get by that although I don't think that's the goal here.

 7        Q.   I know that, sir, and I certainly don't dispute it.  If we could

 8     move to another topic, sir.  There were a couple of interesting slips or

 9     what appeared to me to be slips that you made when you testified in the

10     Milutinovic case.  I'd like to give you a chance to address them.

11             MR. BEHAR:  If we could look at page 31 of your Milutinovic

12     testimony.  It's D712.  Page 31.  Is that page 31?

13        Q.   Sir, you were asked by counsel for the Defence about the

14     suggestion that Serbian artillery had fired from a position in Vranjevac

15     to Kojlovica village.  And you responded that the army couldn't have

16     fired from there but you went on to say this, and this is at line 24 just

17     after the comma.  You said:

18             "... And even if they had fired, if they could have fired, it

19     would never have used artillery against civilians, especially since

20     Kojlovica is a mixed village populated by both Serbs and Albanians --"

21             At that point you were interrupted by counsel.  Do you recall

22     saying that, sir?

23        A.   I recall having said so.  I see nothing in question there, and I

24     certainly cannot any detect any slips.  I can explain that in further

25     detail if you are interested to know.

Page 11619

 1        Q.   I'll --

 2        A.   There's no slip of the tongue.

 3        Q.   I'll ask you specifically, sir, but it would appear that what you

 4     were saying in that line is that the Serb forces might have used

 5     artillery against Albanian civilians but they would certainly not fire on

 6     Serb civilians; is that accurate?

 7        A.   It's not.  You say would or would not.  I said what I said.  It's

 8     in the transcript.  What is true is the following:  Our artillery was

 9     never there, and it never opened fire on Kojlovica.  Such fire could not

10     have been seen by Nazalie Bala because it simply didn't happen, and even

11     if it had, she would not have been able to see it.  From Lapska Street

12     Number 30, you cannot see that.

13             Let's move on.  I also said that ultimately there is a Serb

14     population living there as well, that's yet another possibility.

15     Otherwise, they would never have opened fire on civilians.  They never

16     did.

17        Q.   Sir, let's follow that up.  You've been clear in your evidence

18     that from the outbreak of the war there were no tanks or combat units in

19     Pristina at all, correct?

20        A.   As far as I know there were none.  I didn't see them, and I had

21     no such information.  There were no tanks in Pristina, and especially

22     not -- especially not similar to what I said about Kojlovica in the

23     locations for which it is claimed they were seen.  And I insist on the

24     word "especially" so that you wouldn't turn this against me and try to

25     show it as a lie.  There were none and especially not where people would

Page 11620

 1     have you believe.

 2        Q.   Well, regardless of the use of the word "especially," sir, or any

 3     other qualifying terms you were very clear when you testified in

 4     Milutinovic that there was not a single combat unit deployed nor a single

 5     tank anywhere in Pristina.  And we can just very briefly look at that.

 6             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see D712, page 28.

 7        Q.   You say there, sir, at line 15.  You say:

 8             "As for the second, from the start of the aggression until the

 9     end, not a single combat unit was deployed there, especially not with a

10     tank ..."

11             And you go on to reference the 15th Armour Brigade leaving town

12     and you go on in that sentence to say:

13             "... From that time on there were no tanks in Pristina."

14             And if we look at well, perhaps I won't take you to it, but at

15     page 4 of that same transcript, sir, you again had reiterated:

16             "There was not a single combat unit there," meaning in Pristina.

17     "... all combat units were relocated when the aggression began from the

18     town of Pristina."

19             Do you recall saying that, sir?

20        A.   I do, I do.

21        Q.   And you had referenced specifically the 15th Armoured Brigade and

22     you stated that they had moved out before the aggression, correct?

23        A.   Yes, before the aggression.

24             MR. BEHAR:  Can we see P928, please.

25        Q.   You see at the top there, sir, it says "Pristina Corps Command?"

Page 11621

 1        A.   All right.

 2        Q.   If we look at the bottom of page 1, the final paragraph under

 3     number 2, I'll just indicate the date on this document, sir, is the 1st

 4     of April, 1999.  It states:

 5             "The 15th Armoured Brigade using part of the forces, secure

 6     control of the territory in" names a number of villages, continuing on to

 7     the next page in the English, and says, "the 15th Armoured Brigade deploy

 8     part of the forces to the general area of Pristina and put on standby for

 9     anti-landing combat in Kosovo plateau."  And then it says:  "Established

10     control of the territory and law and order in the general area of

11     Pristina."

12             Do you see that, sir?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   So it would appear, sir, that on the 1st of April, 1999, that

15     15th Armoured Brigade was ordered to deploy to the general area of

16     Pristina, correct?

17        A.   Well, there's nothing for me to interpret here, that's the way

18     it's written.  I can say neither yes or no.  They deployed as written

19     here.

20        Q.   And their orders were to establish control of the territory and

21     law and order in the general area of Pristina, correct?

22        A.   The task they were given was the one that is written here.

23        Q.   And they are an armoured brigade, sir, certainly they could well

24     have used a tank or two or more if that was thought necessary, correct?

25        A.   No, no.  I said that in Pristina there weren't any tanks, and I

Page 11622

 1     don't believe that the commander of the 15th Armoured Brigade at that

 2     time was Colonel Mladen Cirkovic could have used those tanks outside the

 3     zone that the corps commander ordered him to use them in.  The corps

 4     commander did not order him to use them in Pristina.  That can be seen

 5     from this document.

 6        Q.   Well, that's not what it appears to say to me, sir.  It appears

 7     that they were, in fact, specifically ordered to establish control of the

 8     territory and law and order in the general area of Pristina.  I believe

 9     you already answered that was correct.

10        A.   Yes, the most problematic word here is the one that says

11     "beyond."  If it did not say "beyond," you would probably be right, but

12     this way you are not right.

13        Q.   I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying, sir.  Are you

14     saying that they were not empowered and, in fact, ordered to establish

15     law and order in Pristina generally?

16        A.   It doesn't say generally, in the general area of Pristina, beyond

17     Pristina.  Please, if the interpretation is not right, may it be

18     corrected.

19        Q.   Well, sir, I'm asking if you can tell us what you understand it

20     to mean.

21        A.   I understand it -- well, now I'm going to tell you how I

22     understand it.  I understand it in this way:  The commander should deploy

23     his units in the general area, in the broader area.  That is to say, at a

24     distance from the city centre, from the town proper.  In locations that

25     lend themselves to his implementation of the tasks given to him by the

Page 11623

 1     commander.  So that is the area that goes beyond the town itself.  That

 2     is indeed the way it was.

 3             Now, where he exactly deployed them and what is the general area,

 4     the area beyond town, perhaps it's the commander or somebody from his

 5     staff who could explain that best to you.  This is how I understand it.

 6        Q.   And that's fine, sir.  I'm not sure that we're at odds.  I'm not

 7     suggesting that the order required him to roll tanks down main street.

 8     I'm just saying that their order was to establish control and ensure that

 9     law and order was in place in the territory of Pristina, in that area.  I

10     don't think we're at odds, but let me show you another document.

11             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, but we are at odds.  Again you

13     uttered the word Pristina, and you avoided using the word "beyond" as in

14     broader area.  That word should always accompany the word Pristina as is

15     stated in this document.  So in the broader or general area of Pristina.

16     It's the adjective that's problematic here, or rather, it's not

17     problematic, it means that it wasn't in Pristina itself.  That means

18     outside, beyond Pristina.

19             MR. BEHAR:

20        Q.   And yet their orders, sir, were to maintain law and order,

21     presumably not by sitting outside in an isolated area.  Sir, I don't want

22     to go back and forth on this, I think we have your position.

23        A.   Your assumption is right on that.  And there is nothing

24     controversial about that that they maintained law and order, because law

25     and order needs to be maintained for all citizen:  Serbs, Siptars, Romas,

Page 11624

 1     everybody.  That is general interest and that is probably the way the

 2     commander understood it as well.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  Very well, if we could see 6D1470.  If I can just

 4     have a moment's indulgence.  I think it may be P896.  I apologise for

 5     that.

 6        Q.   Sir, this is an order from the Pristina military district from

 7     the 27th of March, 1999.  And let's start by looking at Tasks under

 8     number 2 at the bottom of the page.  You can look at the first two items.

 9     Very first thing it says, sir - and we'll go on to look at the next page

10     in a moment - the first thing it says is:  "To protect the Serbian

11     population."  Do you see that?

12        A.   I see that.

13        Q.   Then underneath that it says:  "To guard roads, military

14     installations, and other features."  Do you see that as well?

15        A.   I see that.

16        Q.   And one would think, sir, that in order to guard roads, might

17     also involve the use of roadblocks, might it not?

18        A.   Is that your question?  May I answer?

19        Q.   Yes, please.

20        A.   Well, this is my answer to that question:  First of all, this is

21     a document, as you can see it as well, was not written by me.  I cannot

22     see the signature down here.  Could you please tell me who signed this

23     document?

24        Q.   Let's actually look to the second page, sir, and we can actually

25     go through the document in more order.  Perhaps we can jump to the last

Page 11625

 1     page so you can see the signature.  It's Colonel Pesic.

 2        A.   I see it.  I see it.  I understand.  That is the commander of the

 3     Pristina military district Colonel Zlatomir Pesic.  So it is his

 4     document.  In relation to this, I can just tell you what my opinion is,

 5     otherwise, I cannot interpret what it was that the commander -- very

 6     well.

 7        Q.   I want to give you a chance to look at the document in a bit more

 8     detail, I think that's fair.

 9             MR. BEHAR:  If we could look at page 3.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MR. BEHAR:

12        Q.   It's at number 5.4.  You can read that, sir, but I'll read it in

13     English as well, it says:

14             "The 50th Military Territorial District shall guard military

15     facilities in Pristina and in co-ordination with forces of the MUP and

16     internal security shall protect features of importance (hospitals, post

17     offices, TV, and radio stations)."  And it also says:  "It shall protect

18     the Serbian population in the southern part of the town of Pristina."

19             Do you see that, sir?

20        A.   I see that.

21        Q.   So here the 50th Military Territorial Detachment is tasked not

22     only with guarding facilities in Pristina but with protecting the Serbian

23     population in the southern part of Pristina, correct?

24        A.   I see what is written there, and I hear what I hear.

25        Q.   Sir, these are just a couple of the orders that we have in our

Page 11626

 1     possession.  But in fact, I put to you that as of the end of February of

 2     1999, the VJ had already begun deploying large numbers of tanks, APCs,

 3     and troops surrounding Pristina; do you agree with that?

 4        A.   I do not agree with that.  And it's not correct.  It's not a

 5     question of me disagreeing or not agreeing, it is simply not correct.

 6        Q.   Sir, you have testified yourself that there were many KLA attacks

 7     after the war started, correct?

 8        A.   Yes, there were many attacks.

 9        Q.   And one would think that with KLA attacks taking place in and on

10     Pristina generally, and given the taskings, just the two taskings you've

11     already seen, that the VJ would need to be ready to respond, correct?

12        A.   Yes.  The VJ was ready to respond, and it was supposed to

13     respond.  The problem is that in many such terrorist attacks neither the

14     army nor the police responded.  You may recall that I told you when

15     Colonel Nikolic was wounded and when the composites got killed and four

16     policemen were killed in one and three policemen were wounded in another

17     neighbourhood in Pristina and the police did not kill a single terrorist

18     when all of that happened.

19        Q.   But the problem, sir, is that it's not just that you said that

20     they didn't respond.  It's that you were clear and you repeatedly said

21     that there was not a single combat unit there, and that's obviously not

22     the case.

23        A.   I said what I said, and I stand by it.  It depends on who means

24     what under the term "combat unit."  You know that in relation to that,

25     what is not combat is sometimes combat.  I know full well on the basis of

Page 11627

 1     the doctrine of our army and law and regulations what combat units are.

 2     Somebody else does not understand it that way.  Just like there is the

 3     problem of excessive use of force.  Some people assess it in one way and

 4     others assess it in another way.  Some people assess excessive use of

 5     force when a single machine-gun is used; whereas, others do not consider

 6     excessive use of force even when you use an atomic bomb.  So from the

 7     point of view of our doctrine in Pristina, there was not a single combat

 8     unit, and that is what I stand by.

 9        Q.   I think we have your position, sir.  Let's move on.

10             You testified very directly again, sir, in the Milutinovic case

11     that there was no destruction of Albanian religious buildings.  You

12     repeated that again today.  No destruction of Albanian religious

13     buildings, certainly no destruction of mosques.  Do you recall that, sir?

14        A.   I do.  And indeed there was no destruction.

15             MR. BEHAR:  Can we see P01136, please.  Page 9.

16        Q.   The building depicted here, sir, on the screen, that's the

17     Emperor's Mosque, correct?

18        A.   That is the Emperor's Mosque.  It's probably the Emperor's

19     Mosque.  There were discussions as to which mosque this was, if it's near

20     the high school Ivo Lola Ribar and near the watch-tower in Pristina then

21     it is the Emperor's Mosque.

22        Q.   And, in fact, sir, you went to high school 10 metres away from

23     that mosque on that site, correct?

24        A.   Well, if that's it, I saw it all the time.  Before the

25     aggression, and during the aggression.  I had occasion to see it many

Page 11628

 1     times and to participate in securing it from Siptar terrorists.

 2        Q.   It was also close to your command post, correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, it was.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, you did identify this mosque in the Milutinovic case

 5     and you at that time were also able to describe it.

 6             MR. BEHAR:  If we look at D712.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

 8             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see page 116, please.

 9        Q.   At line 18, you said:

10             "As for the right-hand part of the picture where the flames are,

11     that's not the mosque."

12             And Judge Bonomy asked you:

13             "Well, is it the historical archive of the Islamic community?"

14             And you responded:

15             "Possibly.  That's where a similar building was, and close to it

16     is Sahat Kula, the watch-tower."

17             And you pointed out that that adjoining building wasn't the

18     mosque.  And Judge Bonomy then asks you --

19             MR. BEHAR:  Actually if we can go to the next page at the top.

20        Q.   He asks you:

21             "Can you not say whether this was the Islamic community's

22     historical archive?"

23             Your answer was that you weren't sure precisely whether that was

24     the archive but you knew the building very well.  Do you recall that,

25     sir?

Page 11629

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   And you've obviously seen from that photograph, sir, that the

 3     building was engulfed in flames, correct?

 4        A.   On the picture you can see flames.

 5        Q.   So it would appear, sir, that your claim that not a single house

 6     of worship or religious building was either damaged or destroyed was in

 7     fact not correct, do you agree?

 8        A.   I disagree with you.  Quite fully.  That is absolutely not true.

 9     And please allow me to explain why it is not true.  If you allow me then

10     I may start now.

11        Q.   You may explain, sir, but please if you can, keep your answer

12     concise.

13        A.   I'll do my best to be very brief, and I'm sure that I will keep

14     my answer shorter than your question.

15             I asked Judge Bonomy then when that building was set on fire.

16     And he said, and you can read it there, that that was on the 15th of

17     June.  I said that I was in Pristina then as well, and that I did not

18     notice that.  If it was on the 15th of June, then it is certain that it

19     wasn't set on fire by the members of the police or the members of the VJ.

20     Then I went on to say that that mosque, the Emperor's Mosque at that time

21     just like the mosque near my command post, this one was nearby as well,

22     it was secured by English KFOR troops who entered it then.  They put sand

23     bags in front of all the mosques and guarded them with weapons.  And I

24     said that they took such good care of it that even a car of a friend of

25     mine, Dragan Lazic, that was parked right in front of the their eyes and

Page 11630

 1     Siptar terrorists stole that car.  Well, that is exactly how they

 2     protected that mosque from the Siptar terrorists.

 3             It is possible that they did it together and they allowed it to

 4     be set on fire.  The army and the police would never have allowed that

 5     kind of thing to happen.  While we were providing security there, not a

 6     single place of worship was destroyed, and I continue to stand by that

 7     that during the aggression not a single Islamic place of worship in the

 8     town of Pristina was damaged or destroyed, and that is the truth.

 9        Q.   Sir, I see that now you seem to be acknowledging that this mosque

10     was damaged or destroyed, or certainly the adjoining building was

11     destroyed.  But that's not even what you said before.  Maybe that you are

12     trying to --

13        A.   The mosque was not destroyed.  And none of what I said is in

14     dispute.  After the English KFOR troops entered, then it was under them

15     that this mosque was set on fire, if it was set on fire at all.  I said

16     that I did not see it.  If that did happen, it happened only when the

17     English KFOR forces entered.  After the entrance -- entry of the English

18     KFOR troops, the entire provincial library in the centre of Pristina was

19     set on fire for days it was ablaze, and all of the citizens of Pristina

20     saw that the library was burning for days, and all of this while English

21     KFOR was providing security.  Now, that's the truth, sir.

22        Q.   There's a couple of problems with that, sir.

23             MR. BEHAR:  I see my friend is on his feet.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I waited for the

Page 11631

 1     witness to complete his answer.  It seems to me that my learned friend,

 2     Mr. Behar, is making assertions that cannot be derived from the witness's

 3     answer.  The witness said that he never saw the mosque that is in the

 4     picture on fire.  And I think that that can be seen in the transcript as

 5     well.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Continue.

 7             MR. BEHAR:

 8        Q.   Sir, the problem is that it's not that you said that the Serb

 9     forces didn't destroy any mosques, it's that you said generally as

10     regards the city of Pristina, I can say not a single house of worship or

11     religious building was either damaged or destroyed.  So even if you had,

12     in fact, believed that somehow it was a co-operation between --

13     [Overlapping speakers] ... and the Albanians, you said, sir, that not a

14     single house of worship or religious building was damaged or destroyed,

15     and that's not the case, is it?

16        A.   I don't agree with you.  I said that, namely, that not a single

17     mosque or any Islamic place of worship in the territory of Pristina was

18     destroyed or damaged during the aggression.  I hope that you know until

19     when the aggression lasted.  It was up until the Kumanovo agreement.

20     This building that is next door to the mosque, so it's not the mosque

21     itself, I didn't see when that was set on fire either.  But it was

22     probably set on fire and if it was, it was after the English KFOR entered

23     Pristina.

24             There is not any information to the effect that they killed a

25     single terrorist, whereas in the centre of Pristina, English KFOR killed

Page 11632

 1     a few Serb civilians who were just walking by.  They killed a few

 2     innocent civilians.  In front of the theatre, they killed an innocent

 3     civilian who was just walking there, and there was blood all over in the

 4     street.  They didn't even kill or do anything to the terrorists that then

 5     set this mosque on fire.  Nothing.  Now, that is the truth, sir.  The

 6     army or the police had no powers there whatsoever.  Had we had authority

 7     there then, the mosque would not have been set on fire, if it had been

 8     set on fire, but that is something that I don't know.

 9        Q.   I think we have your position, sir.

10             Sir, when you testified in the Milutinovic case you used the term

11     "Siptar" repeatedly to refer to the Kosovo Albanians, and you, in fact,

12     did so throughout your testimony.  Do you recall that having done so you

13     then engaged in a relatively lengthy exchange with the Chamber over the

14     question of whether the term had a derogatory or an inappropriate

15     connotation?

16        A.   I recall having discussed that.  There's no doubt about that.  In

17     relation to that question, I see nothing in dispute.  One uses that term

18     to describe most of the population at that time in Kosovo.  You saw

19     hundreds and thousands of documents before this Tribunal where you could

20     see that even my command and Supreme Command used the same term.  I see

21     no reason for me to do otherwise, especially because it is not derogatory

22     and especially in view of the fact that the very population living there

23     call themselves that.

24             I always took into full account every single person living in

25     that territory.  I never distinguished between them on the grounds of

Page 11633

 1     religion or ethnicity, the then-constitution of the FRY and Articles 43

 2     and 45 --

 3        Q.   That's fine, we don't need to get into the constitution.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5        Q.   I noticed again, sir, you use the term "Siptar" repeatedly on

 6     Wednesday to refer to Kosovo Albanian civilians.  I think you have been

 7     quite clear then in your position that neither then nor now do you see

 8     anything wrong with you using that term; is that fair?

 9        A.   It is correct, I use that term.  It is true that I use that term

10     because that population calls themselves that.  In the waiting room, just

11     before I entered the courtroom, I saw that a part of Albania has the same

12     name, so even at this Tribunal there is such a word, "Siptar."  I don't

13     see what the question is here.  It's not derogatory whatsoever.  I don't

14     know where you get this idea that it is.  I use that word with deep

15     respect for the population that calls itself that.

16        Q.   Let's go step by step then, sir.  First the Serb word for an

17     Albanian is Albanac or Albanci, correct?  I see you're nodding, if you

18     can just verbalise, are you saying yes?

19        A.   I can't say what you want me to.  I can tell you what I think is

20     true.

21        Q.   Just yes or no.

22        A.   Therefore, this is your answer.

23        Q.   That's fine.  Sir, I don't need a long explanation.  I just

24     actually asked you that, I saw you nodding your head, but because we have

25     a transcript here, we actually need to write down an answer yes or no.

Page 11634

 1     So do I take it your answer since you were nodding was yes, and I can

 2     move to the next question?

 3        A.   I didn't say yes.  I didn't say no either.  Please put your

 4     question and listen to my answer.  I'll briefly provide you with one.  I

 5     think that's only fair.

 6        Q.   So let me ask again, sir.  Is the Serb word for an Albanian

 7     Albanac or in plural Albanci; is that correct?

 8        A.   There's no problem about the words "Albanci" or "Siptar."  Serbs

 9     call the inhabitants of Albania the way they call themselves.  In the

10     area of Kosovo and Metohija, Serbs call the Siptar population as the

11     population calls itself.  I've explained already that I have nothing

12     against what they call themselves.  This is what they call themselves.

13     It's in their dictionaries, in their documents.  I don't see what the

14     dispute is.  There's no pejorative or derogatory connotations to it.  If

15     it is in any way related or disputed concerning the aggression or

16     terrorism, well, then I don't see it.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar, I think you can take it that the answer

18     to your question was yes.

19             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you.  Your Honour.

20        Q.   And, sir, if I can cut right to the point then, let me just

21     suggest it to you as directly as I can.  I'm going to suggest to you,

22     sir, that the word "Siptar" when used in the Serbian language by a Serb

23     person speaking Serbian, assumes a very negative connotation and that

24     specifically, sir, it has a cultural connotation of referring to someone

25     as a second-rank citizen.  Is that something, sir, that you are aware of

Page 11635

 1     because I might have thought that having grown up in Pristina you would

 2     be well aware of that connotation?

 3        A.   That is not true.  I'm amazed that you came to that conclusion.

 4     It is incorrect.  Why would that mean that they were second rate?  People

 5     I worked with always believed Siptars and other people were fully equal

 6     in every aspect.  This is what we abided by in our daily work and

 7     practice.  I have many friends among Albanians in Pristina and Kosovo and

 8     further afield.  I'll always have such friends, and I'll always like them

 9     irrespective of what they are called.  If they call themselves Albanians,

10     I will call them so.  If they call themselves Siptar, I will call them

11     that way.  That's my answer.

12        Q.   That's fine, sir.  And to be clear, I wasn't asking if you had

13     Albanian friends, I was asking about the term.

14             Sir, are you familiar with Zoran Andjelkovic?  Do you know who he

15     is?

16        A.   Certainly.  I know who Zoran Andjelkovic is.  And I know what his

17     role was during the aggression.

18        Q.   And he was, in fact, a president of the temporary Executive

19     Council for Kosovo-Metohija, correct?

20        A.   Yes, he also commanded the civilian protection of Kosovo and

21     Metohija.  He had his own Chief of Staff, et cetera.

22             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see Defence 65 ter 1673, please.  I'll need

23     page 58.  I think, if it assists, it's D010-3011.  Page 58, please.

24        Q.   Sir, this is Mr. Andjelkovic's testimony from the Milutinovic

25     trial, that's the same trial that you testified in.  He will again be a

Page 11636

 1     witness in this trial.  And I'll read out part of this to you, sir, but

 2     the context is that Mr. Andjelkovic is taking great issue and great

 3     offence to the suggestion that as a Serb he might have referred to the

 4     Albanians as Siptars.  And if we look at line 4, he states:

 5             "Whenever I called the Albanians Siptars, all those who know me,

 6     both Albanians and Serbs, know that I would never say anything like that.

 7     I had a member of the temporary Executive Council replaced because he did

 8     not agree with me that Albanians and Turks and so on and so forth should

 9     be called members of ethnic communities, not even ethnic minorities, and

10     there's this insinuation being made in these documents to the effect that

11     I called the Albanians Siptars."

12             He goes on, sir, to say:

13             "This is just not true, this is an outrage both against me and

14     against my Albanian friends, people that I still see on a regular basis."

15             And then if we look down at line 23, just in case that wasn't

16     clear enough, Judge Bonomy asks:

17             "Are you saying that for you to refer to an Albanian by the use

18     of the word "Siptar" is offensive?"  And he states:  "Yes, in my

19     opinion."

20             And he, in fact, continues to go on about how that term is

21     derogatory, sir, but I won't take you through all of it.  Having seen

22     that, sir, do you recognise that the term "Siptar" as used in Serbian is

23     derogatory?

24        A.   May I answer now?

25        Q.   Please do.

Page 11637

 1        A.   A moment ago you heard me what I said, and I stand by it.  I also

 2     stand by what I said in the Milutinovic case.  As for what

 3     Mr. Andjelkovic said, there's no need for me to comment on it.  That's

 4     his opinion, and there's really no need for me to comment.  I stand by

 5     what I said.  I don't want to change my testimony in that respect.  I'm

 6     deeply convinced that what I said is true.  This is what I felt, this is

 7     what I still think, and I think it is correct.

 8             In any case, you know people change statements, testimonies.

 9     Those same Siptars hold me in much higher regard, I believe, than they do

10     Mr. Andjelkovic, but that's also a hypothesis of mine.  He is quite a

11     newcomer.  He shared much less of their good or bad faith with them than

12     I ever did.  So much for Mr. Andjelkovic and his testimony.

13        Q.   Well, sir, I understand your point, you seem to be reiterating

14     that you believe that this term is not offensive.  And we've dealt with

15     that.  But even putting that aside, sir, surely if Kosovo Albanians are

16     offended by your use of that term, then the term is offensive, do you

17     agree?

18        A.   Well, if one wants to insult them or themselves, but what if they

19     are not exchanging insults?  When I was there, when I spoke with them and

20     when I was exposed to NATO bombing, they were never insulted by that.  I

21     associated with them.  I shared good and evil with them.  And they were

22     never insulted.  And I was never insulted on their part.  I did tell them

23     if they wanted me to call them anything else, I could do so if they found

24     that of their liking.  Why not?  And why would I have to change my

25     previous conduct?  I would still be doing that if I were down there.  As

Page 11638

 1     for how they feel after the aggression and whether this is now an insult

 2     or not is something I don't know.  I'm now completely outside that area.

 3     I have no knowledge of their feelings nowadays.

 4        Q.   Just before we move on, sir, I'm not sure I understood part of

 5     what you had said earlier.  You said that the -- some Siptars hold you in

 6     a higher regard and that they don't hold Mr. Andjelkovic in a high

 7     regard.  Can you explain that?  Why don't they hold Mr. Andjelkovic in a

 8     high regard?

 9        A.   I don't think they don't hold him in any regard, but I just said

10     that I believe they think better of me than of him for the simple reason

11     because he spent shorter time with them than I did.  He didn't share as

12     much good and evil with them than I did.  He only lived there for a short

13     while before the aggression and after the aggression.

14             Secondly, I make a distinction between myself and Mr. Andjelkovic

15     on several levels.  First and foremost, I am a soldier who hails from

16     that area whereas he is a politician.  You know that politicians have a

17     different view of some things nowadays than they did before.  I, however,

18     cannot do that.

19        Q.   Okay, sir, let's try to keep this moving.  Sir, you've made a

20     number of observations and comments about the evidence of Nazalie Bala.

21     I notice you discuss her evidence in some length again unprompted earlier

22     today.  I want to ask you some questions about the comments that you've

23     made both in the Milutinovic trial and on Wednesday and here again today.

24             First, sir, you have never been inside of Nazalie Bala's house, I

25     take it; is that correct?

Page 11639

 1        A.   I have never been there, although I would like to.  Even if I had

 2     been, there would have been nothing in dispute there.  I did go down that

 3     street, and I think I know where her house is.  Well, or I'm not actually

 4     sure whether I would be able to recognise her house or not.

 5        Q.   Right.  Just to focus again sir, you've never been inside her

 6     house, of course then you haven't been on her roof-top, correct?  Where

 7     she says that she made these observations?

 8        A.   That is absolutely correct.  I have never been inside her house

 9     and especially not on her roof.

10        Q.   And, in fact, sir, you have told us, and I think this is clear

11     from your previous testimony, you couldn't even recognise her house?

12        A.   I couldn't really recognise her house because I had never seen

13     it, but I can guess the location of it because I know Lapska Street quite

14     well.  And it's not too long of a street.

15        Q.   I know that you know the street, sir, and we'll come to that in a

16     moment.  But you've provided testimony, sir, detailed testimony to this

17     Court that Ms. Bala could not possibly have seen what she saw from that

18     roof-top, correct?

19        A.   She could not have seen it, what she says she did, from the roof

20     of that house.  And especially not the village of Kojlovica.  As I said

21     in the Milutinovic case, she would not have been able to see it even with

22     a telescope, that's what I said.

23        Q.   Well, in fact, sir, she had binoculars.  Let me take you through

24     this step by step.  First if we can look at your testimony in chief on

25     Wednesday.

Page 11640

 1             MR. BEHAR:  And if we could see D717.

 2             Sorry, Your Honours, before I proceed, my colleague here observed

 3     that I hadn't tendered the transcript of Zoran Andjelkovic, which I took

 4     the witness through.  I expect it will probably be tendered in the course

 5     of the Defence case, but I think in terms of good record-keeping it would

 6     probably be best to seek to tender it now.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

 8             MR. BEHAR:  That was the exhibit, that was D010-3011.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01541.

12             MR. BEHAR:

13        Q.   Sir, we are looking at the map that you marked on Wednesday, we

14     can see where it's marked number 1 there, perhaps we could zoom in where

15     it says number 1.  But you, in fact, just identified a wide swathe of

16     Ms. Bala's street on the map.  And, in fact, that street which you can

17     see from that is quite a long street, in fact, continues not just in the

18     wide area that you circled but even on the other side of the cross street

19     to the east.  Do you see that, sir?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   So, in fact, sir, that street goes on for many a blocks, in fact,

22     continues past a couple of major streets there, major intersections, and

23     it's a fairly long street, would you agree?

24        A.   I wouldn't agree that it's a pretty long street.  It's all

25     relative.  For example, look at Proatoska [phoen] Street, it is much

Page 11641

 1     longer than Lapska, then we have Gavrila Principa Street, much longer.

 2     This is one of the shorter ones.  And as for the difference between short

 3     and long, it's a relative thing.

 4        Q.   Would you agree, sir, the part of the street you've circled

 5     essentially a wide swathe of that street, do you agree?  Is that fair?

 6        A.   When I circled it, I wasn't asked to circle the whole of it, but

 7     to circle a part of that street, and I did.  And you can see clearly on

 8     the map how far it goes.  Lapska Street is a whole street.  And when

 9     Nazalie Bala was circling it, she didn't circle the whole street either,

10     just a part of it.  That's what I could read on that part of the map.

11     That's not in dispute.  Lapska Street is where it says it is.

12        Q.   I understand, sir.  Let me see if I can be more specific.  Sir,

13     you've made a broad declaration that from this street, Lapska Street,

14     that runs the whole distance that we can see in front of us, from that

15     street, Ms. Bala could not possibly have seen any of the places that she

16     described, correct?  From nowhere along that street is what you've said.

17        A.   You asked me that a moment ago and I said that from Lapska

18     Street, from her house and from her roof-top especially could not have

19     been able to see the village of Kojlovica, not from her house and with

20     the binoculars from the roof of her house.

21        Q.   Sir, that's what you are saying now, but, in fact, it's already

22     been made quite clear, I think, you don't know where her house is, you've

23     never been inside it, you've never been on the roof.  And what you've

24     said repeatedly in your observations is that one couldn't see these

25     places from that street, correct?

Page 11642

 1        A.   I said something that you are obviously trying to take note of.

 2     I said that it is in a flat area.  I explained that in relation to the

 3     street's position and Vranjevac, it is in a flat area.  That's not in

 4     dispute.  Is there a problem for anyone to go to Pristina to get up on

 5     the roof and see whether Kojlovica can be seen or not, and that person

 6     can tell you that and then you can call me to task about my testimony.

 7     Someone goes there, takes a look, if you can see it you know.  Milutin

 8     Filipovic was not telling the truth as a witness.  If you can -- if you

 9     can't see it, then he was telling the truth.  Why waste time?  Although,

10     I'm more than ready to co-operate with you on that.  Let's take as much

11     time as you have on your hands, and I'll give you my time.

12        Q.   But, sir, the problem is, and let me put this to you again

13     because I'm not sure that I'm getting an answer to it, you don't know

14     where the house is but you've been very certain in your claims, your

15     repeated claims in the Milutinovic case and again here in the Djordjevic

16     case, that she could not have seen the things she saw.  But what I'm

17     saying to you, sir, is that you do not know where on that street, and you

18     have not known where on that street her house even is; is that correct,

19     sir?

20        A.   It's not.  Her house is determined or its location was determined

21     precisely.  Her street is not just anywhere along Lapska Street, it is at

22     number 30 and nowhere else.  It is in Lapska Street and only there.  From

23     that street, from that house, one cannot see Kojlovica.  I was in

24     Kojlovica 40 years ago, 30 years ago, on the eve of the aggression, and I

25     know where it is.  I couldn't see that part of Pristina from Kojlovica,

Page 11643

 1     and I could not see Kojlovica from Lapska Street.  Also, I couldn't see

 2     the house where he she lived in.  40 years ago my teacher in Kojlovica,

 3     Angelina Saranovic in Nusiceva Street, Number 7, in Belgrade, I used to

 4     go to see her and I would see her at school in Kojlovica, so you cannot

 5     see it.  We should go to Nazalie Bala's house.  Let's take a pair of

 6     binoculars, let's see if we can see Kojlovica or not.  Let's clear that

 7     up once and for all.  If you can see it, I'm wrong.  If you can't, I'm

 8     right --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... understands the answer

10     to be that from nowhere in the street can that village be seen.

11             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I appreciate that.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Sir, we are becoming impatient with your answers.

13     You do not seem capable of giving a short answer to a question.  If you

14     listen to the answer, you can answer shortly.  You are spending a very

15     great deal of time talking about matters that have nothing to do with

16     this case.  That is not helping us to hear and understand what you want

17     to say.  Please carry on, Mr. Behar.

18             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Sir, I see that you have again tried to assert or now, in fact,

20     for the first time have tried to assert that you knew where her specific

21     house was and I see that you know it's number 30 no doubt from having

22     looked at her statement, but, in fact, sir, that's not what you said all

23     along and, in fact, I put to you it's been very clear all along that

24     you've only known the location of this street and that's what you've

25     referred to.  Let me take you through that just so it's clear.

Page 11644

 1             MR. BEHAR:  If we can look at your testimony from Wednesday which

 2     is T-11568.

 3        Q.   Sir, if we look at line 16 there you were asked:

 4             "From Lapska Street can you see Kojlovica?"

 5             Your answer was:

 6             "The village of Kojlovica cannot be seen from Lapska Street."

 7             MR. BEHAR:  If we can scroll down to 11570, line 25.

 8        Q.   Again there the question is whether from the location number 1,

 9     which was you circling a large swathe of the street, a person can see the

10     village of Lukare.  You say, No, it's not possible, and again you say,

11     "from Lapska Street, you cannot see Lukare."  And if you scroll down

12     again to 11572, line 20.  Again, sir, "it is impossible.  It is

13     impossible," you say.  "From Lapska Street, can you not see the Orthodox

14     cemetery."

15             Now, sir, clearly there is a significant difference between

16     different locations that a house may occupy along a long street, but

17     without belabouring that point, let's look, sir, at the specific reason

18     that you gave why it would be impossible to see these places.

19             MR. BEHAR:  If we can scroll back T-11568, line 16.

20        Q.   You were asked there, we just looked at this, but I'll draw your

21     attention to it again.  Sorry, actually if we look at line 20, that's

22     easier.  You say:

23             "The reason you can't see it is because between Lapska Street and

24     Kojlovica there is no line of sight because of the lie of the land and

25     buildings."

Page 11645

 1             So, sir, you are talking about line of sight, lie of the land,

 2     and buildings.  But, sir, surely there is a significant difference to

 3     line of sight or lie of the land or the manner in which buildings might

 4     block your view depending where you are on that a long.  Do you agree or

 5     disagree?

 6        A.   I would not agree with that.  Independently of all of that, can

 7     you not see Kojlovica from that place.  I said very nicely that there is

 8     no optical visibility.  Please if necessary can experts go and establish

 9     that, I claim that that is impossible and I claim that because I went

10     through that area and I'm convinced of that.

11        Q.   Very well, sir.

12             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I do have perhaps five to ten minutes

13     left, but I see we are at the time for the second break.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the second break.  This will be a

15     break of an hour, and we would resume at 2.30.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 1.34 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

21             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Sir, just to finish off with this topic, I'd like to look at one

23     more map.  It's a rather simple map.

24             MR. BEHAR:  65 ter 06049.

25        Q.   Sir, this is a very simple map made by using Google maps, and it

Page 11646

 1     shows the basic topography and the elevations of the area that you've

 2     been discussing and that Ms. Bala discussed.  And letter A on that map

 3     shows us the rough location of Ms. Bala's house.  Now, sir, do you see

 4     Kojlovica on that map?

 5             MR. BEHAR:  I see my friend is on his feet.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now we have a map on

 8     the screen, but we don't know who entered things onto the map and by what

 9     means and by what standard.  It says here that already some markings were

10     made and that, for example, A should be witness Bala's house, but I don't

11     think that is customary.  We should have a pristine map.  Perhaps the

12     witness can answer, but I don't think it's been our practice so far.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Fortunately, Mr. Djurdjic, we don't often need to

14     Google.  This is a fairly standard form Google map, and even I can see

15     from the indication of main streets of the town, that the circle with A

16     in the middle is in the approximate position of Lapska Street.  The town

17     or village names appear to be a standard part of the Google map.  So I

18     think accepting that there may be no particular proof of details at the

19     moment, nevertheless this has a sufficient appearance of normality and

20     authenticity to allow the questioning to continue.

21             Please do so, Mr. Behar.

22             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   And, sir, I can indicate that actually on the map itself we put

24     in the address, you can see it at the top of the screen, of 30 Lapi or

25     Lapska Street, and that's the A that's come up, but would you agree, sir,

Page 11647

 1     that the A is the approximate location of Lapska Street; does that seem

 2     right to you?  I see you're nodding, sir, I take that as a yes?  Okay.

 3     Sir, just to return to my question, do you see Kojlovica on that map?

 4             MR. BEHAR:  Perhaps the witness could be provided with a pen to

 5     make some markings.

 6        Q.   If you could just circle Kojlovica.  Put a number 1 next to that.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Now, it would seem clear from this map, sir, that Kojlovica is at

 9     elevation, correct?  In other words, it's up on a hill, in a hilly area?

10        A.   Can you tell me what is it that you are asking me precisely?

11        Q.   Well, I'm just asking you, sir, and you can see it from the map,

12     but I'll ask you the question in any event, Kojlovica is at elevation, in

13     other words, it's not at sea level, it is up high on a hill or in a hilly

14     area; is that correct?

15        A.   It is not.  And we can't see that on this map.  Kojlovica, or at

16     least most of it, is in a flat area, and as for the names, you can put it

17     above, slightly under, or to the east, west, north, or south.  The name

18     does not necessarily have to be in the same spot where the location is.

19     Just take a look at where it says "Pristina," it's in one place only of

20     the town.  Topographic markings are slightly different to locations

21     themselves.  They are usually placed next to a location.  If we want to

22     have a centre of town marked precisely it has to be marked with a dot.

23     Otherwise on this map we have places at a higher altitude than --

24        Q.   I think we have your position, and I'm not really concerned about

25     where the letters are on the map, sir.  But you can see that that whole

Page 11648

 1     area, it appears quite clear, is at elevation as compared to Pristina

 2     which is flat.

 3             My question for you is, are you saying, sir, that Kojlovica is

 4     not at elevation, that general area?

 5        A.   Just above Kojlovica on several sides there are hills.  Kojlovica

 6     itself is not on the same altitude.  Another thing that is important and

 7     that is in colour on this map is as follows:  Between Kojlovica and

 8     Pristina and Lapska Street, there are obstacles that are higher than

 9     Kojlovica and Pristina themselves.  That is very important to note.

10        Q.   We've covered the issue of obstacles, sir, we don't need to

11     return to that and if you can just stay focused on my questions.  Let's

12     look -- I think we have your position there, sir.

13             Let's look at Dragodan.  Can you indicate where Dragodan is there

14     on this map?  I'm not sure that it's actually marked.

15        A.   You can see it approximately here.  That should be it although

16     I'm not positive.

17        Q.   You agree, sir, that Dragodan is at elevation?  In fact --

18        A.   Most of Dragodan is, or at least a part of it, but not all of it.

19        Q.   In fact, sir, there's an area called Dragodan hill, correct?

20        A.   It is likely.  Dragodan does exist but whether there is an

21     elevation or a hill, I can't tell you exactly.

22        Q.   In fact, sir, it was Dragodan hill that Ms. Bala referred to.  I

23     won't take you there, but I can leave this site, it's T-2289, line 14.

24             Now and how about Vranjevac, sir, can you indicate where that

25     would be on the map?

Page 11649

 1             Sorry, actually before I do that, you did just circle an area,

 2     Dragodan.  The area that you circled, for Dragodan, can you just put a

 3     number 2 next to that.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I'd asked if you could mark the area that

 6     Vranjevac is in, if you could put a circle there and a number 3.

 7        A.   Vranjevac is quite large, and this map is not very good for me to

 8     mark it.  If you insist, I will, but one cannot establish exactly where

 9     Vranjevac is.  In terms of area size, Vranjevac is quite large.  This map

10     is not very good for that.  I marked it on the previous map.  I think it

11     should be enough to compare.  If you press me into marking it here, that

12     may not be so convenient not because of my lack of knowledge, but because

13     of the type of map this is, and it is not very -- a very good means to

14     mark such an area.

15        Q.   That's fine, sir.  It doesn't need to be pin-point accurate

16     marking, but if you can just indicate the general area that Vranjevac is

17     in on this map.  Put a number 3.  I won't hold you to it being exactly

18     correct.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   If you can put a number 3.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And that is also at elevation, is it not, sir?

23        A.   Not all of it.  Part of it is.  The rest is not.

24        Q.   Let me be specific then, sir.  Both you and Ms. Bala refer to the

25     Vranjevac hill.  I'm presuming that a hill is at elevation and is above

Page 11650

 1     the things surrounding it, correct?

 2        A.   For the most part, yes.

 3        Q.   Sir, can you indicate Taslixhe on the map.  Circle that area

 4     broadly and perhaps mark it with a 4.  It is actually labelled on the

 5     map.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Again it would appear clear from that map that that area is at

 8     elevation just judging from the ridges which indicate elevation, do you

 9     agree with that, sir?

10        A.   The way it is shown here it appears to be, yes.

11        Q.   And finally, sir, if you could indicate the location of Lukare or

12     Lukare on this map?  If you can circle that and put a number 5.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Would you agree, sir, that Lukare and certainly parts of Lukare

15     are also at elevation?

16        A.   They are not.  Lukare is not at elevation.

17        Q.   Well, in fact, sir, Ms. Bala stated that she saw a tank firing

18     from a hill in Lukare.  Do you recall that?

19        A.   I do.  Lukare itself has no hills.  Further afield there are some

20     though.  This road goes through Lukare and the military warehouse is

21     right next to the road.

22        Q.   Well, sir, if someone is --

23        A.   The road between Pristina and Medvedje.

24        Q.   Sir, if something is on a hill, then obviously it's at elevation,

25     correct?

Page 11651

 1        A.   Lukare is not at elevation.  And the warehouse is not at

 2     elevation.  It is in a flat area next to the road.  Around that, though,

 3     there is a number of hills.

 4        Q.   Well, let's look then very briefly at what you said.

 5             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see - this is again from Wednesday's

 6     testimony - T-11575.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you wanting anything done with this map?

 8             MR. BEHAR:  Oh, yes, sorry.  Yes, I would seek to tender the map

 9     at this time.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received, but we do bear in mind the

11     points made by Mr. Djurdjic in his objection, so don't overlook that

12     reservation.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the map will be Exhibit P01542.

14             MR. BEHAR:

15        Q.   And if you look, sir, this is actually in your testimony in

16     chief, in fact, this is how it was put to you when you were asked to

17     describe the Lukare firing and what Ms. Bala said.  The question is

18     beginning at line 11, Ms. Bala says on page 2341 of the transcript, line

19     22 and 23 and 24 and 25 that she saw a tank firing in the village of

20     Lukare firing from a hill there towards the hill of Kojlovica.  So just

21     to be clear, there, sir, even as it was put to you, you are talking about

22     hills in that area.  Is that consistent with your understanding of the

23     topography?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Now, generally speaking, sir, would you agree that it's easier to

Page 11652

 1     see something, certainly something at a distance when it's up on a hill

 2     above you?

 3        A.   Yes, provided that between that elevation and the place she says

 4     could be seen there are no obstacles.  The village of Lukare is not on a

 5     hill, do bear that in mind.

 6        Q.   You have already told us today, sir, that Lapska Street was in a

 7     flat area, correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Now, sir, in a more general respect with respect to

10     your testimony, I've noticed that in a number of respects you've claimed

11     not just that you observe something happened, but that you had a very

12     direct and personal connection to it.  So you spoke personally, according

13     to your evidence, to Albanians who told you that they were leaving

14     because of the NATO bombing, correct?  You recall saying that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You testified that you looked out your window and saw people

17     moving in fake convoys, you recall saying that?

18        A.   I don't recall looking out my window.  If I said so, and I

19     believe there are audio recordings to double-check that, then I guess you

20     are right, but I really don't recall having said that I was looking out

21     my window.

22        Q.   Well, we can look at that, sir, but you did certainly say that

23     you saw personally people moving in these fake convoys, correct?

24        A.   I did say that, and it is correct.

25        Q.   You say that you personally saw and handled depleted uranium

Page 11653

 1     projectiles, correct?

 2        A.   Yes, I said that too.

 3        Q.   You said that you yourself were with General Lazarevic on April

 4     27th and 28th, correct?

 5        A.   Yes, I said I was with him.

 6        Q.   As we've just discussed, you say that you personally know that

 7     Nazalie Bala could not possibly have seen those observations that she

 8     described and that you commented on, correct?

 9        A.   I said that from Lapska Street Number 30 or from anywhere in

10     Lapska Street, one cannot see the village of Kojlovica, and I repeat that

11     for the umpteenth time, that is correct.

12        Q.   Very well, sir.  I put to you, sir, that in making all of these

13     claims that you've, in fact, specifically tailored your evidence and

14     fabricated your evidence in order to assist the Defence case however

15     possible on each of those specific points.  Do you agree, sir, or do you

16     disagree?

17        A.   Why would I specifically tailor anything?  I see this as an

18     insult.  I declare that I will tell the truth, and this is what I did.

19     And nothing else.  I didn't make up anything.  I only told you what I saw

20     or heard at the time it happened.  End of story.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             MR. BEHAR:  Those are my questions for you.  I know my learned

23     friend may have some follow-up questions.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Behar.

25             Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 11654

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

 3        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, my learned friend insisted repeatedly on the claim

 4     that from the Lapska Street you could see Lukare and Kojlovica and you

 5     claimed that there's no line of sight.  So can you explain to the Trial

 6     Chamber why there is no line of sight from Lapska Street to Kojlovica and

 7     Lukare?

 8        A.   Well, my answer to your question is very brief.  There's no line

 9     of sight for several reasons.  One of the reasons is because there are

10     obstacles, natural and man-made obstacle between the two.  So there is

11     not an optical line of sight, you cannot see you from one to the other.

12     And another reason is, well, despite the fact that it says there that the

13     events were observed from the attic of a house that has five stories, it

14     is indicated that two stories are underground and three are above ground.

15     As far as I know, two plus two makes four, not five, so if you have two

16     stories that are underground, then you can only watch something, observe

17     something from the second floor and not from the fifth floor, but the

18     basic key reason is that there are man made and natural obstacles.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, if you were to stand in

20     Lapska Street and there's a straight line from there to the point above

21     Kojlovica, how far is it, what is the distance?

22        A.   Well, I said at the time that it was about 5 kilometres.  That's

23     likely the case.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, from Lapska Street if you look to Lukare in a

25     straight line, what would the distance be there?

Page 11655

 1        A.   I think it would be more than 3 kilometres, but I can't really

 2     tell you.  I took that road to Medvedje and Kacikovo, and I went there to

 3     a visit the depot more than 3 kilometres.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You are an officer, a military officer.  If you could

 5     see something at that distance using a pair of binoculars, could you see

 6     an object the size of a tank, see it and recognise it?

 7        A.   Well, I don't think that you could do that with a fair of

 8     ordinary binoculars, but it's not the key thing here.  There are man-made

 9     and natural obstacles which prevent you from looking and seeing from the

10     point where the person claims was observing to the place where this

11     person claims the tanks were and where fire was opened from and so on, so

12     that is the key thing.

13             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you.  Now, I would like us

14     to look at P1542.  It's just been admitted.  If we could look at it on

15     the screen.

16        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, you marked under number 2, Dragodan.  Could you

17     tell us where would the cemetery be?

18        A.   The cemetery is not as high up as Dragodan itself, the village.

19        Q.   Just a moment.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the witness go on

21     and make some additional markings on this map and then we can perhaps

22     admit is in that form?  No?

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It can be done as a separate exhibit.  It would be

24     perhaps helpful if there was a another colour pen.  You may have a blue

25     pen now, I believe.

Page 11656

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Just a moment, Colonel.  Do you have a blue pen?

 3        A.   I have this pen here.  I don't know what colour it is.

 4        Q.   Yes, you can go ahead.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Very well.  Could you please mark it 6, with 6.  Yes, thank you.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Now, let me quote from Ms. Bala's statement at page 2341, lines

 9     12 through 17:

10             "When I looked towards Dragodan from the terrace, I observed the

11     area close to the cemetery, and I could see the police forces moving in

12     armoured personnel carriers, trucks and other vehicles."

13             So if this is A and we know that this A, it's the house in Lapska

14     Street, this new technology is very accurate, what are the obstacles

15     preventing the witness Bala from seeing the cemetery?

16        A.   Man-made and natural obstacles between Lapska Street, her house

17     in Lapska Street, and the site where the Serbian Orthodox cemetery is

18     located in Pristina.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like us to look at

20     D50.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you wanting this as an exhibit?

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Of course

23     that's why we made those markings.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00719.

Page 11657

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, can you see this marking number 1?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is that Lapska Street?

 5        A.   No, unfortunately not.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Now, tell me, if we look at where Lapska Street is on

 7     this map, can you see the Dragodan cemetery?

 8        A.   This is not Lapska Street, but that doesn't change anything.  You

 9     cannot see the Dragodan cemetery either from this location or from where

10     Lapska Street really is.  You cannot see the village of Kojlovica either

11     because of those obstacles.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The presiding judge, His Honour Judge Parker asked

13     the witness to circle the railway station, and it's marked with number 4

14     here.  To the best of your knowledge, can you tell us where the railway

15     station actually is, if you can indeed see it on this map?

16             MR. BEHAR:  I have an objection, Your Honour.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not the railway station.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

19             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honour, this is not, in my submission, a proper

20     scope of re-examination.  This is something that could have been explored

21     in chief, but this is not anything that arises out of my examination.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it is in the context of physical

23     obstructions to views, so I would allow Mr. Djurdjic to continue.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Could you tell us now where the railway station is.  First tell

Page 11658

 1     us.

 2        A.   The location marked with number 4 is not the railway station in

 3     Pristina.  The railway station is at a different location.  It's to the

 4     south-west of that location.  If you allow me, I will mark the location

 5     of the railway station on this map.

 6        Q.   But let us first explain that in words.  If you go south-west of

 7     this circle here, can you read on the map?

 8        A.   I can circle the location where the railway station is if you

 9     allow me.

10        Q.   All right.  Go ahead.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  With the blue pen.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that the blue pen?

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And I think you should mark it with number 5.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, yes, you can see some buildings here where you

17     made this marking.  Is it possible to see the cemetery from Lapska Street

18     given its position?

19        A.   No, you cannot see the cemetery because there are natural and

20     man-made obstacles which make it impossible to see anything.  And in

21     particular, this location marked with number 4, it's an overpass which is

22     higher than the rest of the structures there, and this is the overpass

23     that Bala used every day as she went to work in Dragodan.

24        Q.   Now I would like to ask you something about Vranjevac.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at D717.

Page 11659

 1     I would actually prefer to see D011-2339.  And I would like to tender

 2     this into evidence, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00720.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could zoom in a little bit

 6     from the middle of the page up.  Yes.  A little bit further up, if you

 7     can.

 8        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, can we see now the whole of Vranjevac, or should

 9     we scroll down a little bit?

10        A.   Yes, you can see most of it, but you could scroll down perhaps a

11     little bit.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we then scroll down a little

13     bit.  No, no, the other way.  Down.  A little bit more.

14        Q.   I think that now we can see the whole of Vranjevac?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you this, and I don't want to lead you

17     here.  We can see a railway line which almost bisects this map going

18     north/south.  Now, does this railway line skirt Vranjevac?

19        A.   Yes.  That's the railway line that goes from Pristina through

20     Podujevo to Kursumlija and then further down.

21        Q.   Yes.  Now, please take the pen and can you just mark the borders

22     of Vranjevac.  And on the other side, north-west.  Do we have it or not?

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, could you please place a number 1 next to those

25     borders.  Just write number 1 so that we know that this first line that

Page 11660

 1     you drew in marks the borders of Vranjevac?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Filipovic, is the whole of Vranjevac located on a hill?

 4        A.   Vranjevac is on a hill on the slopes and then it also extends

 5     into the plain next to the railway line.

 6        Q.   My question to you is this:  You've shown us where the railway

 7     line is.  Can you tell us approximately where the top of the Vranjevac

 8     hill is?

 9        A.   It's a little bit more to the north.

10        Q.   More to the north than what we see here?

11        A.   Well, at the edge.

12        Q.   Of the map that we have here?

13        A.   Yes, at the edge of this map next to the cattle market.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, from Lapska Street to the top of the

15     hill to the highest elevation, how far is it?

16        A.   As the crow flies it's more than 2 kilometres, the straight line

17     is more than 2 kilometres.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to know this:  Can you now draw in

19     where Lapska Street is?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   That's number 2.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   You mentioned that there was a barracks that was relocated on the

24     eve of the war.  Now, the barracks, was it here on the hilly side, or was

25     it beyond the hills on the other side?

Page 11661

 1        A.   The barracks was in the plain there where the

 2     Pristina-Kosovo-Polje Road is.  So if you leave Pristina and head towards

 3     Kosovo Polje, you take what used to be Lenjinova Street, and to the right

 4     right next to the Pristina-Kosovo-Polje railway line, that's where the

 5     barracks was and that's where it is, in fact, to this day.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does it have anything to do with the part of

 7     Vranjevac that was attacked?

 8        A.   Topographically speaking, no, no, there's no connection

 9     whatsoever.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Here if you could just mark at the bottom, if you

11     could just mark the Vranjevac overpass.

12        A.   Yes, I can see it, and I can mark it if you allow me.

13        Q.   Please go ahead.

14        A.   I marked the Vranjevac overpass, the one that goes over the

15     railway line, and I marked it with number 3.

16        Q.   Now, from the beginning of the war until the end, did you ever

17     see on that overpass any armoured vehicles or tanks?

18        A.   There were no armoured vehicles or tanks there ever and for

19     several reasons and I explained that.

20        Q.   Yes, thank you very much.  Please just focus on the questions

21     that I'm asking you and answer just to those questions.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

23     tender this map into evidence.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D00721.

Page 11662

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My learned friend asked you about the term "Siptar" used for

 3     Albanians, and you have given us your explanation.  I, myself, call

 4     Albanians, Albanians, but I want to know what name did you use for

 5     Albanians from the time when you were born until today?

 6        A.   I always called them Siptars because I found that in the

 7     textbooks.  I was taught by Siptars and that's what they taught me.

 8        Q.   And were these schools that you attended ethnically mixed?

 9        A.   Yes, my high school had seven classes in the fourth grade; four

10     in Serbian, two in Albanian, and one in Turkish.  That was in 1967.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P869.  Or

12     rather, P896, I'm sorry.

13        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, this is an order of the command of the military

14     district dated the 27th of March, 1999, and it was shown to you during

15     the cross-examination.  I wanted to ask you whether this unit, or rather,

16     these units of the military district had armoured combat vehicles?

17        A.   Not a single one.  The formation that was called the military

18     district of Pristina did not have a single one.  That can be seen from

19     its book of establishment, and everyone knows that there was no such

20     vehicle.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My learned friend said that this order shows that

22     roads were supposed to be secured, so tell us what kind of security was

23     provided along roads by these detachments?

24        A.   These detachments or rather, these military territorial units

25     carry out in-depth security activities for various roads, buildings,

Page 11663

 1     et cetera.  It's done in the following way:  They will be deployed along

 2     a road, and they will be at a certain distance but by their very

 3     disposition they will make it impossible for Siptar terrorist forces to

 4     attack these roads, et cetera.  They had to be deployed in such a way

 5     also because of NATO action against roads.  If they were to be directly

 6     on roads, they would be a direct target.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do they have anything to do with the regulation of

 8     traffic on the roads that they secured?

 9        A.   They had nothing to do with that at all.  And that was not part

10     of their duties either.  It was the police units that were in charge of

11     that, and they did that in accordance with regulations.  They asked

12     citizens to show IDs and during these ID checks many policemen were

13     killed by Siptar terrorists throughout Pristina.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have P982.

16     No, 928 actually.  Again, I'd like to ask if we could have a map.

17     D011-2339.  Could we please zoom in on this little box or square.  That's

18     right.

19        Q.   Can you find your way here, can you see or --

20        A.   I can orient myself for the most part.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this box we have

22     the town of Pristina marked with the surrounding area.

23        Q.   From the document that I asked for previously, P928, paragraph 2

24     was shown to you concerning the 15th Armoured Brigade.  So it says --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

Page 11664

 1     document now in e-court any longer.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Goles, Obilic, and Gracanica.  Could you please underline Obilic,

 4     Gracanica, and Goles?

 5        A.   Gracanica, number 1.  Obilic, number 2.  And Goles, Goles I

 6     cannot find it exactly, but it should be roughly in this area.  That

 7     would be number 3.  Number 3, Goles, the map is not very legible, but

 8     Goles would be in that area roughly.

 9        Q.   So in number 2, in that area, or rather, the broader area of

10     Pristina, that is where forces had to be on the ready for anti-sabotage

11     fighting on this elevation, and you describe these three points to us,

12     that those were the points that were being defended.

13             Could you draw a line in terms of how you understand this broader

14     area of Pristina.

15        A.   The broader area of Pristina would mean outside these features.

16     I will try to explain it by way of a circle, if you allow me to do so.

17     Everything outside this line is the broader area of Pristina.

18        Q.   Could you please put number 4 on that circle.

19        A.   The broader area is marked with a number 4.

20        Q.   Let us try to make it as clear as possible.  In relation to this

21     circle that you drew, where is the broader area?

22        A.   In relation to the circle, the broader area is outside that

23     circle.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I'd like

25     to tender this document.

Page 11665

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00722.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P928, and

 4     have a look at paragraph 4, and it's page 5 in the English version.  It

 5     is page 2 in the B/C/S.  Could we have the end of the page, please.

 6        Q.   Could you please read paragraph 4 to yourself, Mr. Filipovic, and

 7     could we please have your comments once you've read it?

 8        A.   Yes.  "In all" --

 9        Q.   Not aloud.  To yourself.

10        A.   Thank you.  I have read it.

11        Q.   Could you please give us your comments?  What does paragraph 4

12     mean?

13        A.   In my view, it is basically clear, namely, that in all garrisons

14     and garrison posts and deployment areas, deployment areas first and

15     foremost, and areas of responsibility in co-ordinated action with MUP

16     forces, the military territorial units and the military investigating and

17     judicial organs, ensure the control of the territory and the functioning

18     of the authorities, prevent looting, theft, and other forms of crime, war

19     profiteering, protect the civilian population from robbery and establish

20     law and order.  That was the task, very clear.  It is put rather

21     generally, but it is very clear, and that was done throughout the

22     aggression.  Of course, along with all the difficulties caused by the

23     activity of Siptar terrorists and the NATO air force.

24        Q.   Tell me, are there any combat activities in these actions that

25     are ordered in paragraph 4?

Page 11666

 1        A.   No, there are just tasks that are spelled out in general terms.

 2     In order to control the territory, ensure the functioning of the system

 3     of government, protection of the civilian population, and that is what

 4     the MUP did together with military units in a dignified and honourable

 5     manner throughout the aggression.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 3 now in

 8     the Serbian version.

 9        Q.   Could you please read the first paragraph on page 3 to yourself.

10        A.   Yes, I can.  I have read it.

11        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, what are garrisons and garrison posts?

12        A.   In accordance with the rules of service of the Army of

13     Yugoslavia, there were garrisons and garrison posts, and that is what the

14     regulations said, that there was this classification.  Now, on the basis

15     of this, we can see that the military police were supposed to be of

16     involved as well.

17             I omitted to say a few moments ago that for checking roads and

18     securing roads, in addition to the police units carrying out checks there

19     was also the military police who have their own line of work.  So they

20     co-operated there in that field, and they provided for unhindered traffic

21     and checks.

22        Q.   One more question.  You were the temporary commander of the

23     Pristina garrison during the war.  I would be interested in one

24     particular thing.  The area of responsibility of a unit is one thing, I'm

25     referring to the brigade, and the place where it is is a different

Page 11667

 1     matter.  In every brigade was there also a company of the military

 2     police?

 3        A.   Yes.  In units at brigade level as far as I can remember at

 4     regimental level as well there were military police units that had their

 5     specific tasks especially in this period of aggression.  They had the

 6     task of providing law and order and checking traffic, providing security

 7     for the commander, and the forward command post and carrying out other

 8     tasks in accordance with the rules of service and the military police.

 9     Also they were supposed to safe-guard scenes of crime, they were supposed

10     to be involved in investigations of crimes and so on.

11        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to these tasks and the military police

12     units as such, did they carry out any kind of combat tasks?

13        A.   No, as far as I know, they were not engaged in any kind of combat

14     tasks.  Only the tasks that I referred to.  They did that every day and

15     in that area there was no abuse whatsoever.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In your own garrison, during the course of the war in

17     Pristina, did the military police carry out these functions that you

18     mentioned?

19        A.   The military police carried out these functions and that

20     primarily pertains to the 52nd Battalion of the military police that was

21     deployed in the broader area outside the central part of the town of

22     Pristina, and they carried out these tasks and also this was done by the

23     15th Brigade, the 243rd, and other units who are our neighbours.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Filipovic, I would be interested in the

25     following:  During the war apart from Mr. Demaqi, who you mentioned, did

Page 11668

 1     you perhaps see in Pristina some other leaders of the Albania separatist

 2     movement?

 3        A.   Certainly.  There were many.  I've already mentioned Adem Demaqi.

 4     There was Veton Surroi and many others who were in favour of Kosovo

 5     becoming a republic.  There were also people there who had had been

 6     sentenced to prison terms for terrorist acts and after leaving the prison

 7     they lived unhindered in Pristina or elsewhere.  They could stroll about

 8     town without any problem.  The Siptar members, I mean.

 9        Q.   My learned friend asked you about the village of Gracanica and

10     its function during the war.  What about Ajvalija, where is it?

11        A.   Ajvalija is along the road between Pristina and Gracanica.

12     Approaching to Gracanica one needs to turn to the east from the road.

13        Q.   Thank you.  What was the ethnic makeup of that village?

14        A.   I completed two years of elementary education there, and during

15     the aggression, in Ajvalija there were some 4.000 Siptars and between 2-

16     and 300 Serb inhabitants.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you go to Ajvalija during the war?

18        A.   I did.  The population there mostly lived in harmony.  There were

19     no disputes or problems.  There is a whole line of examples that can be

20     used of the two ethnic groups helping each other.  I remember the Jocic

21     and Mitic families who were assisting the Siptars and vice-versa.  They

22     used to shop in the Vitija family shop, as well as the shops of the Drela

23     and the Berisha families.  The church operated throughout.  That's was

24     life was like in Ajvalija.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you go to the village of Maticane during the war?

Page 11669

 1        A.   I was in the general area of Maticane and in Maticane itself.  It

 2     is a large neighbourhood on the outskirts of Pristina.

 3        Q.   What was the ethnic makeup?

 4        A.   There were only some 30 Serbs from the Vasic, Simic, and Kostic

 5     families.  The other 4- to 5.000 inhabitants were Siptar.

 6        Q.   During the war, as far as you know, did anyone move out of the

 7     village of Maticane?

 8        A.   Yes, the Kostics, Simics, Vasics.  There were many people with

 9     slit throats, many people kidnapped from Maticane.  The Serbs moved out,

10     whereas the known terrorists remained living in Maticane, and I can

11     enumerate them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  My question is this, rather:  Do you know whether any

13     Albanians were moved out of Maticane during the war?

14        A.   Some of the Albanians did leave Maticane, but most of them

15     remained.  There were even two terrorists groups which clashed in

16     Maticane.  As a result of that, there were two killed.  To date there is

17     a cemetery containing their graves.

18        Q.   Did you go to Kisnica during the war?

19        A.   A few times.  Especially when the corps command was deployed

20     there in the broader area of Pristina.  As far as I know there were

21     Siptars mostly as well as several Serb families.  The Kisnica mine

22     operated properly and the employees were under work obligations so both

23     Serb and Siptars came there to work.  Many Siptars attended their work

24     regularly.  That would be it for the most part regarding Kisnica.

25        Q.   Thank you, Colonel, Filipovic.  I have no further questions for

Page 11670

 1     you?

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, this

 3     concludes my redirect.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

 5                           Questioned by the Court:

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I have a question to the obstacles you

 7     mentioned the man-made and natural obstacles between Lapska Street and

 8     the cemetery.  You just said obstacles, man-made and natural, can you

 9     describe them in more detail, please?

10        A.   I can describe them for you.  Between Lapska Street and the

11     Orthodox cemetery, I can tell you a few obstacles even though it's been

12     quite a long time since I left the area.  Let's start with the man-made

13     buildings.  There's the invest bank building in close proximity to the

14     Municipal Assembly building.  Next there is the Municipal Assembly

15     building.  Then the building in the former JNA street which is now called

16     Kralja Milutina Street.  There is the management building of the Kisnica

17     mine close to number 46 where I attended military academy.  There is

18     another building close to Marko Isak Street which has five, six, or seven

19     floors.  There is a building close to the Omladina movie theatre.  Then

20     there are buildings close to the former Ljubljanska bank and the centre

21     where William Walker was, which has eight or nine floors.  Those are all

22     obstacles en route to the Orthodox cemetery.  Lapska Street and the

23     Orthodox cemetery are approximately at the same attitude -- altitude.

24     These obstacles alone prevent any visibility.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about the natural obstacles in that

Page 11671

 1     direction?

 2        A.   As for the natural obstacles, there is a part close to the

 3     railroad which is higher than Lapska Street and this Orthodox cemetery.

 4     I don't know what the altitude is, but it is higher.  Since the whole

 5     Pristina is at an altitude of some 570 metres above sea level, but it

 6     varies between 520 and 650 metres.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I would like to have a detailed explanation

 8     of the obstacles between the Lapska Street and Lukare, you said the same

 9     man-made and natural obstacles.

10        A.   They are both man-made and natural obstacle, but there are more

11     of the natural ones.  Those are tall trees and lie of the land.  However,

12     there are some man-made obstacles.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Then I have another question, just a

14     moment.  This morning you spoke about -- I would like to take you back to

15     a page 21, line 12.  And I would like to quote:

16             "I think it was Brnjica, although in the general area of Grmija

17     there were parts of such missiles found.  So the general area of

18     Pristina, Gornja Brnjica," and so on.  "The general area of Devet

19     Jugovica and the other areas of Pristina.  We collected such parts."

20             Then you continue:

21             "I even wanted to present you with a list of those parts."

22             The last sentence I really didn't understand in this context.

23     Could you explain that a little more detailed.

24        A.   I mostly had in mind different parts of missiles.  There were

25     cluster bomb parts, there were parts of projectiles with uranium charge,

Page 11672

 1     then there were parts of Tomahawks.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Excuse me, perhaps you didn't understand my

 3     question.  You said, so it's written in the transcript:  "I even wanted

 4     to present you with a list of those parts."  Did you mean that you wanted

 5     orally to present such a list, or what did you mean?

 6        A.   You are right.  I wanted to enumerate them orally, that's what I

 7     mean by list, and I've already done so partially.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  You may be able to help me with one matter.  If we

10     could have Exhibit D722 on the screen, please.

11             Do you remember that you were shown this map of the Pristina area

12     and you marked three locations:  Gracanica, Obilic, and Goles, I think.

13     You then drew the circle number 4, and you said that outside of that

14     circle was the broader area of Pristina.  What made you decide that the

15     broader area of Pristina was outside the circle you had drawn?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is off.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you mind repeating, the microphones were

18     turned off.

19        A.   When I circled this, what I had in mind was the constructed part

20     of Pristina, that is to say where the buildings are and the territory of

21     the municipality of Pristina.  The circle does not represent the

22     territory of the municipality.  It is far bigger.  In diameter it's about

23     50 kilometres.  And it goes from the north-east from Kobila and

24     Kacikovski [phoen] then down south to the municipal border with the

25     Lipljan municipality and Kosovo municipality and Obilic.

Page 11673

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Kosovo Polje

 2     municipality and Obilic.

 3        A.   I circled this believing that this was the general area of

 4     Pristina, however, the municipality of Pristina is a much bigger area

 5     outside the circle I drew.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  So this was really your own general description of

 7     what might be a broader area of Pristina, is that it?

 8        A.   This should be it more or less, but no one ever determined the

 9     exact borders.  It is usually believed that the general area is what is

10     outside the constructed, the urban part of the town itself.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The area you have circled though is much more

12     extensive than the actual built-up area, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes, it is quite bigger.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.

15             We wish to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague again,

16     for the assistance that you've been able to give, and you are now, of

17     course, able to return to your normal activities.  And a Court Officer

18     will show you out.  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you and greetings to

20     everyone.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It's probably a bit late, Mr. Djurdjic to call

23     your next witness now?  We want to draw attention once more to the slow

24     progress.  This is just, I believe, the 13th of your Defence witnesses

25     that has been completed.  It has taken us over four weeks, that's

Page 11674

 1     excluding, of course, the evidence of the accused.  And what we notice is

 2     that in the original estimate where you thought you might take until the

 3     end of May, times were allowed for each of these witnesses.  And you are

 4     now providing revised time estimates which are double or longer the time

 5     in the original estimate.  That seems to have been the clear pattern to

 6     date.

 7             Thankfully, the Prosecution is generally being very brief in its

 8     cross-examination.  If it was taking anything like the time you have been

 9     taking and your colleagues, with your examination-in-chief and

10     re-examination our progress would be lamentably slow.  It is the case

11     that you have indicated that five witnesses on your original list will

12     not be called, but even so, we are well behind the original timetable.

13             Now, this can't just be allowed to carry on or we will be hearing

14     witnesses in June and July, and that's not going to be in anybody's

15     interests.  It is our observation that you appear to be dealing with many

16     matters that are not central to this case, and that the

17     examination-in-chief could be much shorter.  If you concentrated on what

18     are the allegations in the indictment and concentrated your evidence on

19     those, that is especially so in the case of witnesses that are Rule 92

20     ter witnesses where there has been a clear tendency to have the witness

21     go over lots of the evidence that has been tendered by way of statement

22     or transcript, to have a repeat canvassing of that evidence.

23             This has been raised with yourself and Mr. Djordjevic and I think

24     Mr. Popovic on more than one occasion so far, but there seems to be no

25     significant change in the rate of progress.  Is there any encouragement

Page 11675

 1     you can give us at this point, Mr. Djurdjic, about the time taken with

 2     witnesses and the rate of progress?  We would indicate that if there

 3     isn't really some significant change, the Chamber will have to consider

 4     imposing arbitrary time-limits on you and that, of course, is something

 5     we've tried to avoid doing to give you the greatest opportunity to

 6     present your case in the best way.

 7             I'll stop speaking and see if you are in a position to offer us

 8     something at this point, Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must underline once

10     more that this Defence is particularly pleased with the way this Chamber

11     has proceeded in this case and that you have not adhered to some

12     procedures we were witness to in other cases.  I am sorry for our

13     inability to assess correctly the time we would need for certain

14     witnesses given that we lacked any previous experience in that regard.

15     And we wanted to shed some light on certain aspects which have not been

16     in the focus of previous Defence teams.

17             Despite all that, I assure you that our Defence case will last

18     significantly shorter than what you said, and that the time that we will

19     use in excess will be compensated for by not calling certain witnesses,

20     and I don't believe I said initially it was supposed to be the end of

21     May, but until the end of April.  However, it is my objective assessment

22     at this moment that our case should rest by mid-April because if we have

23     a witness here covering a certain aspect or area, we will remove from the

24     list all other witnesses that were supposed to address the same issue.

25     We distributed our witnesses into several categories and we are now

Page 11676

 1     closing the first category.  Although, initially, I believe there would

 2     be more in that category.  What is left now is the police and the

 3     political category of witnesses, if I may say so, and some expert

 4     witnesses in the end.

 5             I can assure you that we will not waste time unduly.  I believe

 6     my assessment about the close of our case is quite realistic in these

 7     terms.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that, Mr. Djurdjic.  There are a

 9     couple of comments I would make at the moment.  You have earlier

10     indicated, you and Mr. Djordjevic, that it is anticipated that some

11     witnesses on the list would not be called beyond the five that have

12     already been specified.  It's going to save a great deal of effort by the

13     Chamber and by the Prosecution if we are given some indication of the

14     witnesses you will not be calling.

15             Now, I appreciate that you may not be able to do that for every

16     witness because a lot will depend upon how a particular witness goes or

17     whether there is difficulty with one witness and you have to call a

18     substitute and so on, but there will no doubt be a number of witnesses

19     which you can identify now and that will save us a deal of preparation

20     time, and also the Prosecution if they can be identified now and if as

21     soon as others become clear we are progressively told of those.  If you

22     could give that thought over the weekend, we may be able to shorten your

23     list somewhat.  And that will help us see a little more clearly what lies

24     ahead.

25             The second comment I want to make is that we are conscious that

Page 11677

 1     you will have been fairly pressed with witnesses, and we were thinking of

 2     having a shorter break over Easter, a short break over Easter, so that

 3     you could expect not to have to call witnesses immediately after Easter

 4     or the week following that.  That could mean that your programme may

 5     extend toward the end of April to finish rather than be finished by

 6     mid-April, but one of the objects of that will be enable Mr. Djordjevic

 7     and yourself to review your evidence and be sure that, A, you haven't

 8     overlooked some witness or matter, and that, B, you really do need to

 9     call any witnesses that remain on your list.  So if you would keep that

10     in mind as well.  In due course we'll fix the clear dates when we won't

11     sit so that you can make the plans for the travel of your witnesses that

12     are necessary.  But if you and the Prosecution will keep in mind that we

13     will have a short break over the Easter period, which we hope will be of

14     benefit to yourself in the finalisation of the shape of your Defence

15     case.

16             So if we could ask you then over the weekend to look at your

17     witness list and you may be able to be a little more clear and positive

18     early next week about the shape of your future list.

19             We will adjourn now until Monday.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.09 p.m.

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

22                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.