Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12525

 1                           Tuesday, 9 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Please be seated.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

11     applies, and Mr. Popovic is continuing with his questions.

12             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  BRANKO MLADENOVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:  [Continued]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mladenovic.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D009-0943.

19        Q.   It is number 20 in your binder, Mr. Mladenovic.  Yes, that's the

20     document, Mr. Mladenovic.  Before we start with a brief analysis of this

21     are report, could you please look at the second page and tell me whether

22     that is your signature?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So this is a report about a contact with verifiers of

25     the OSCE Mission.  The date is the 2nd of February, 1999.  I would like

Page 12526

 1     to ask you to focus on the middle of the first page of this report where

 2     you say:

 3             "In response to my comment that we don't know what this was all

 4     about but the citizens often do not know enough and, therefore, due to

 5     misinformation or lack of information on the part of citizens, there is a

 6     tendency of misinterpreting events" et cetera.

 7             Could you please tell us what you meant when you wrote this in

 8     that report?

 9        A.   I meant that propaganda that was aimed at the citizens

10     incessantly.  It caused great fear among the citizens, and it is due to

11     that fear that they moved out of the area.  So we made every conceivable

12     effort to alleviate that fear and not to have false stories spread

13     because people kept repeating these stories and that caused even greater

14     fear and horror which led to people moving out of their homes.

15        Q.   I'm also going to ask you to look at the last paragraph on page 1

16     of this statement where it says:

17             "I raise my objection and criticised the behaviour of verifiers

18     who on the 1st of February, 1999, went to the crime scene in the village

19     of Gornje Godance ahead of an on-site investigation team."  Could you

20     please give us your brief comment.  Did that kind of thing happen often?

21        A.   Yes.  This was the beginning when we had these contacts.  Tom

22     Olofsson, I told you, he was the commander of the verifiers in Stimlje,

23     and sometimes citizens would directly report crimes to the verifiers, so

24     they went to the crime scene before we did and therefore disrupted it.  I

25     drew their attention here to the fact that no one was allowed to do that.

Page 12527

 1     They can receive that information, but it's the police that has to go

 2     there to secure the scene and the investigation organs have to go and

 3     carry out an on-site investigation, and all of that can be watched from

 4     the side, as it were.

 5             That was our objection.  He accepted that, and in the future,

 6     that kind of thing did not happen again.  They did not go to the scene

 7     ahead of us.  The police would secure the scene, and they would monitor,

 8     observe what the investigation teams did.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted into

10     evidence, Your Honours?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00822.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please have

14     D010-0799.

15        Q.   It's 21 in your binder, Mr. Mladenovic.  First of all, can you

16     confirm to us that you signed this document?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  This is a report on sighting of or contact with

19     members of the OSCE Mission.  The date is the 9th of March, 1999.  Could

20     you please look at number 2, or rather, let us look at the first

21     paragraph.  Subject of interest and questions that were put in relation

22     to the security barrier.  Could I please have your comment?

23        A.   This is a report on a contact that was established.  I cannot

24     remember who was present.  Yes, Olofsson again, Sweden.  Masi Mammadov

25     from Azerbaijan, and an interpreter from Urosevac.  This is what we

Page 12528

 1     suggested yet again.  Namely that we noticed that there was some strange

 2     behaviour on the part of the OSCE verifiers and the members of the KLA.

 3     At the house where they stayed, the house that they rented, during the

 4     night they had suspicious individuals coming to see them from the forest

 5     so they even asked why we put that barrier there in Racak.  I think

 6     that's what it was all about.  Whether there were any objections, so on

 7     and so forth.  And now whether we placed that check-point or barrier at

 8     Cesta for security reasons, and I said that we had not placed that

 9     barrier, it was the KLA that placed that barrier there while they were on

10     that locality.

11             Again my comment in respect of this report is that attacks were

12     incessant from that village against our check-point that protected the

13     remaining part of town from incursions from the forest, terrorist

14     incursions.  I think that I gave you an appropriate answer.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this please be

17     admitted into evidence.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00823.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have D009-0910.

21        Q.   Number 22 in your binder.  This is a dispatch dated the 14th of

22     March, 1999.  We see down here that it says, Stimlje police station

23     commander, senior warrant officer Branko Mladenovic.  That's you, right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please give us your brief comment with

Page 12529

 1     regard to the content of this dispatch?

 2        A.   It had to do with information provided to the duty service at the

 3     Urosevac SUP to the effect that a terrorist attack had been launched

 4     against a vehicle that was moving along the road that we were securing.

 5     The vehicle was hit, and a soldier who was in the vehicle was wounded,

 6     and it explains what happened to him.  Members of the police holding the

 7     position the PPO in Crnoljevo Stimlje responded to the attack.  I mean,

 8     that security check-point had been attacked too.  This was a dispatch

 9     that was sent to the Urosevac SUP in accordance with that instruction to

10     report and inform on everything significant that happened.

11        Q.   Thank you.  For the transcript, please, could you repeat -- first

12     of all, PPO Crnoljevo, what is PPO, what is the task of that PPO in

13     Crnoljevo?

14        A.   As I said yesterday, that is "privremena policijaska stanica"

15     temporary police station.

16        Q.   Could you please speak slower.

17        A.   This is a temporary police squad in Crnoljevo.  That is a squad

18     that was established in order to secure the road between Pristina and

19     Prizren going via Stimlje and the Crnoljevo gorge.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this please be

22     admitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00824.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] D143, please.

Page 12530

 1        Q.   It's 23 in your binder.

 2        A.   Could you please put a question to me.

 3        Q.   Just a moment, please, we'd like the documents to appear on the

 4     screens.  The date of the document is the 1st of April, 1999.  Could we

 5     please have a brief comment as to what the purpose of this document was?

 6        A.   This is a dispatch of the MUP staff for APKM from Pristina that

 7     was sent to all secretariats.  As you can see here, inter alia the

 8     secretariat in Urosevac, and the police stations in relation to the new

 9     situation caused by NATO bombing that started on the 24th of March, 1999,

10     and in order to provide an effective and timely information, it is

11     necessary that you submit a daily summary of important incidents and

12     events for the period from 0600 hours to 0600 hours on the following day

13     to the staff of the ministry of the Republic of Serbia for the AP KiM and

14     fax it to the MUP staff and then the number of the fax by 7.00 a.m.  This

15     summary should include the following:  Bombing of the NATO forces, date,

16     time, place.  Bombing by NATO forces, date, time, place, type, and manner

17     of bombing from aircraft cluster bombs, cruise missiles, et cetera,

18     results, human casualties and material damage.  Number 2, terrorist

19     attacks against MUP and Yugoslav Army personnel and facilities, again,

20     date, time, place, type and manner.

21        Q.   You don't have to read everything that the document says.  We can

22     see that.

23        A.   It's signed by General Sreten Lukic.  This is a standard dispatch

24     that was sent in relation to our obligation vis-a-vis the staff.

25        Q.   Very well.  Thank you, I would particularly be interested in

Page 12531

 1     paragraph 4 of this document, that is to say, persons of Albanian

 2     ethnicity who fled from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  First of

 3     all, did you keep records of these persons in the period when this

 4     dispatch was sent, the 1st of April, 1999?

 5        A.   We did not keep records because it was impossible to keep records

 6     of that kind.  It was impossible for a simple reason, because practically

 7     everybody was fleeing from the theatre of war.  Serbs, Albanians, Roma,

 8     Turks, everybody else.  Especially women and children.  Everyone sought

 9     shelter.  Some went in the direction of Serbia, others went in the

10     direction of Albania, yet others in the direction of Macedonia.  They all

11     went to stay with their relatives or wherever else they could stay.  I

12     mean, I sent my own family to Serbia.

13             So that was the situation.  In all that panic, it was impossible

14     to keep accurate records of the number of persons who had fled from the

15     area.  There were columns moving all time in different directions.  If we

16     were to do that at check-points then we would actually be keeping the

17     columns too long.  They would be delayed, and the bombing was

18     indiscriminate.  A bomb could fall anywhere at any point in time, so that

19     was the reason why that was impossible.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take this in the right order.  First of all,

21     tell me, were you born in the province of Kosovo and Metohija?

22        A.   Yes, I was born in Urosevac.

23        Q.   Did you have friends among Albanians and other ethnic groups

24     living in Urosevac?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  I had many Albanian friends, Sadri Sulja [phoen]

Page 12532

 1     was my next door neighbour, and we lived as if we were all one family,

 2     one household.  I had lots of friends.

 3        Q.   Do you speak Albanian?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Did you see columns of refugees going through Stimlje or in the

 6     territory of the police station of Stimlje, and if so, how big were these

 7     columns and which direction were they moving?

 8        A.   I saw columns of refugees.  They were ethnic Serbs and Albanians,

 9     and I had occasion to talk to them.  Our appeal was for them to stay,

10     however, as I said, I sent my own family away, so it's not that we could

11     insist.  Columns were moving in the direction of Albania, Serbia,

12     Macedonia, wherever people thought that they could find shelter.

13        Q.   When you talked to these people, did you ask them what the

14     reasons were, why they were leaving their homes?

15        A.   Well, it was the bombing that was the main reason, the danger of

16     bombing.  Then there was another very important reason.  They didn't want

17     to be caught in cross-fire between members of the police or the army, and

18     the members of the KLA.  These were two important reasons.  There were

19     other reasons as well.  There was the danger of using -- of having

20     depleted uranium bombs used.  A lot of people were talking about that.

21     Everybody knew how dangerous uranium was, then also cluster bombs were

22     used.  So that would be about it, those would be the reasons involved.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, do you have any information percentage-wise

24     as to how many ethnic Serbs left the territory of Stimlje in March,

25     April, and May, 1999, that is to say, before June?

Page 12533

 1        A.   Could you please repeat your question, you mean ethnic Serbs?

 2        Q.   Yes, ethnic Serbs.  How many ethnic Serbs left the territory of

 3     Stimlje in the period of March, April, and May, 1999?

 4        A.   I wouldn't know what the exact figure was, but I think that

 5     practically the entire population left.  Only the men stayed behind

 6     taking care of their homes.  At first, the women and children were there

 7     seeking shelter in basements and the like, but ultimately they all left.

 8     Just very few people stayed, and everybody left by the 12th of June.

 9        Q.   Was there a mosque in Stimlje?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When you left Stimlje on the 12th of June, as you said, what

12     happened it to that mosque?

13        A.   The mosque remained intact.  Wherever the police was deployed and

14     where the police station.

15             MR. STAMP:  Can I just intervene here.  I should have done this

16     from yesterday, but it goes on and on.  I don't think this is in the 65

17     ter of the -- that was presented to us.  This is what I'm told.  I also

18     know that much of evidence led yesterday in respect to what happened at

19     the Stimlje police station on the 15th was not in the 65 ter.  I

20     desisted, I did not intervene at that time.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

22             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness is

23     speaking about the situation of the territory of the Stimlje police

24     station during the NATO bombing.  The question sought to elicit

25     information about the mosque in Stimlje under the jurisdiction of the

Page 12534

 1     police station there, and I don't see how this goes beyond what was

 2     announced as the contents of this witness's statement.  Why should

 3     matters relating to the mosque be special as opposed to everything else

 4     in the territory of the Stimlje police station in March, April, and May,

 5     1999?

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  The problem arises, Mr. Popovic, because your

 7     summary is so short and general.  Words like a witness will testify about

 8     the situation in Stimlje and the territory of Urosevac, full stop.  Now,

 9     that gives no indication of the nature of the evidence to be led, the

10     issues to be covered, and that is the sort of thing that you put here as

11     a summary.  The problem is a failure to comply reasonably with the

12     requirements of the rule as to notice.

13             Carry on with what you are doing, but if it is the case that the

14     Prosecution is not in a position to deal with all aspects that have been

15     covered in the evidence in chief, inevitably a request by them for an

16     adjournment of their cross-examination will be met, and it may mean the

17     witness will have to stay here until such time as the Prosecution have

18     been able to prepare adequately to deal with the range of matters that

19     are dealt with in the evidence.

20             Now, that position is being taken today in respect of this

21     witness.  Can we suggest that you look at the summaries of witnesses to

22     come to see whether they really are giving a reasonable warning of the

23     nature of the evidence and the matters to be dealt with in the evidence.

24     If they are not, the summary should be supplemented to give the

25     Prosecution adequate warning.

Page 12535

 1             Carry on for the moment, and you've heard Mr. Stamp and our

 2     position about that.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We will

 4     certainly act in accordance with your instructions.  Should we receive

 5     any request from the OTP, we will certainly also give them the

 6     information they want.  I have no more question about this topic.  I will

 7     continue in connection with the mosque.  If there should be subsequent

 8     situations, such situations with witnesses, we will inform the OTP

 9     accordingly if the summary should not have been detailed enough.

10             Let us now please look at Exhibit D698.

11        Q.   That is tab 24, Mr. Mladenovic.  Mr. Mladenovic, this is a flyer,

12     and here is my question:  Did you have an opportunity to see such flyers?

13        A.   Yes, I was able to see this flyer.  It was red with black print

14     on it.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was this the only kind of flyer that you were able to

16     see in the territory of KiM during the NATO bombing, or were there

17     others?

18        A.   No.  This was not the only flyer.  There were various flyers.

19     Some were dropped from planes, others were glued on houses and lamp

20     posts, et cetera.  There were various flyers with different content.  All

21     of them were meant to instill fear, all these flyers.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   And I believe that the consequence was exactly as intended.

24             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Let us now look at D007-122.

25        Q.   That's tab 27, sir.  Yes, this is the document.  Mr. Mladenovic,

Page 12536

 1     please take a look at page 6 first, and I would also like for page 6 in

 2     the B/C/S version to be displayed.  I suppose the page reference is the

 3     same for the English language version.

 4             Mr. Mladenovic, do take a look at the last paragraph here which

 5     starts with "on the 5th of April, 1999."  I don't want to read it out to

 6     you, so read it to yourself and tell us what this is about.

 7        A.   This is about an incident at the beginning of the bombing when

 8     total chaos broke out.  There were many broken shop windows and much

 9     damage everywhere.  There was theft from shops and for abuse of official

10     position, we also arrested some police officers.  It says here, On the

11     5th of April, 1999, and all the way through the paragraph, or rather, in

12     the -- to the beginning of the next page in the original, the names are

13     mentioned here.  Can I read out the names?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   Zoran Stanojevic; Canovic [phoen], Miomir; Mitrovic, Slavisa.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Some names escaped us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then Slavisa Stakic from

18     Stimlje also.  All those who had broken the law during the bombing.

19     Although they were police officers at such difficult times in the war

20     when we needed every single police officer we had, we launched a criminal

21     proceedings or misdemeanour proceedings or disciplinary proceedings

22     against them.  I know about this case because I gave orders that

23     proceedings be taken against them.  They were detained for awhile, I

24     don't know exactly how long, and there were criminal reports filed

25     against them, what they -- Prosecution office in charge, and the -- our

Page 12537

 1     superior authority at Urosevac was informed.

 2             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I seek to tender this

 3     document into evidence.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00825.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

 7     see a document which is under seal now.  I believe that we can see it the

 8     same way as we proceeded yesterday.  It's D142.  I only have two

 9     questions about some sentences in that document, and it is important that

10     only we in the courtroom see it and nobody outside.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The document is only to be displayed in the

12     courtroom.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   This is tab 26, Mr. Mladenovic.  It's an Official Note.  You can

15     see the date.  Please read the last paragraph of this Official Note, and

16     comment it for us, especially the mention of cluster bombs.

17        A.   This is an Official Note which was made during the bombing on the

18     11th of May, 1999.  This was standard procedure.  The event in question

19     was registered with the Stimlje police station, and it is about an attack

20     carried out by NATO airplanes.  They attacked the security check-point of

21     Kostanje in Stimlje, and they dropped cluster bombs.  Four persons were

22     seriously wounded and four members of the VJ who after first aid was

23     administered to them were transferred to the Pristina hospital.  Only on

24     the following day when we were able to get there in the afternoon, we

25     found another soldier who had been killed.  So this document speaks about

Page 12538

 1     an event during the NATO bombing, and it is -- it proves that cluster

 2     bombs were dropped.  Those wounded were wounded very badly by these

 3     bombs.

 4             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] All right.  D146, please.

 5        Q.   That's tab 29, sir.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] This document is not under seal, so

 7     it can be displayed.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, this is an Official Note dated the 27th of May,

 9     1999, and it says that certain persons were brought to the Stimlje police

10     station for an interview.  Was that regular procedure, and what happened

11     to those persons after that?

12        A.   This was regular procedure, standard procedure.  All units in the

13     area of the Stimlje police station were duty-bound to apprehend every

14     person that threatened them and take them to the Stimlje police station.

15     So this document speaks about the VJ which was in the area, I cannot tell

16     exactly where, yes, Gornje Godance that they found some persons that they

17     thought were suspicious and brought them to Stimlje police station.  An

18     Official Note was drafted about that by Dragan Gojkovic who at the time

19     was a police officer at Stimlje police station.  One such note with this

20     list was also forwarded to the OKP of the Urosevac SUP.  They treated

21     these persons additionally, and if there was no reason to detain them,

22     they were released.

23        Q.   Take a look at the following page, please.  We see that on the

24     28th of May an interview was conducted with Salih Nuredini, and if you

25     look at the previous page you will see that under 16 his name is

Page 12539

 1     mentioned.  This is the English version so we see under 16 Salih

 2     Nuredini.

 3             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can you go back one page, or

 4     forward.  All right.  No, this is the first page.  In English we need the

 5     following page.  We need Salih Nuredini's statement.  While we are

 6     waiting for that, you take a look at the statement, Mr. Mladenovic, and

 7     tell us what this is about.

 8        A.   As we can see here in the first paragraph it says this statement

 9     was taken on the 28th of May, 1999, from Salih Nuredini from the village

10     of Zborce in the Stimlje municipality where he has permanent residence.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic, this document, statement appears not

12     to be in e-court.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that there is no

14     translation of the statement which is part of the original document.

15     Although this document is already an exhibit, but it was admitted as is,

16     I move that the Defence should make a translation of this statement of

17     Salih Nuredini who was also on the list of the persons apprehended on

18     page 1.  Since there is no English translation available, I will now

19     refrain from asking the witness questions about that statement.  It

20     was -- he was only meant to be corroborate that this was the same person

21     anyway, and I will contact the translation service and apply for a

22     translation, which we will submit.

23        Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, in 1998 and 1999 did you ever see or hear of the

24     existence of a plan or agreement in the framework of the MUP under which

25     the Albanian population was to be expelled from Kosovo?

Page 12540

 1        A.   No, never.  I have never heard of it, I have never seen it.

 2        Q.   Did you ever in 1998 or 1999 see or hear that there was a plan or

 3     an agreement in the framework of the MUP to the effect that the ethnic

 4     structure of Kosovo should be changed by expelling the Albanian

 5     population?

 6        A.   No, I've never seen or heard of such a thing.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I

 8     conclude with my examination-in-chief.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

10             Yes, Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

13        Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, can you tell us, please, what position do you

14     occupy now in the MUP?

15        A.   Now I am chief of the department for foreign nationals

16     suppressing illegal immigrations and --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the rest.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the police administration in

19     Smederevo.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all other microphones please be switched

21     off while the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

22             MR. STAMP:

23        Q.   Can you just please repeat what your job is?

24        A.   I am head of the department for foreign nationals for suppressing

25     illegal immigrations and human trafficking at the police administration

Page 12541

 1     in Smederevo.

 2        Q.   Do you have a rank in the police?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes, we have ranks in the sense of titles now, so it

 4     used to be the rank of major, but now I'm senior chief inspector.

 5        Q.   You told us in your evidence yesterday that there were reserve

 6     branch police stations, and you described what these were.  And you said

 7     they had no base, no physical base, I think you meant.  When you referred

 8     to these reserve branch stations, did you mean the reserve police squads?

 9        A.   I meant that they didn't have a separate office of their own or a

10     facility where they had to come and report, and then leave.  That's what

11     I meant.  They had weapons they had received as members of the reserve

12     police force and they kept these weapons at home.  So members of this

13     reserve police squad were at their homes.  We had them in Muzicane and

14     Godance, specifically.

15        Q.   Okay.  Just please try to confine yourself to what I've asked

16     you.  So we are talking about the reserve police squads then?

17        A.   Reserve police squads.  [B/C/S spoken], that's what it was

18     called.

19        Q.   I see.  And you told us that they were organised by reserve

20     police officers, and you also told us that these were villagers who were

21     self-organised.  Can you explain what might apparently be a conflict?

22        A.   In addition to that number of reserve policemen who were engaged

23     in the police station in Stimlje, there were others whose obligation was

24     to be reserve policemen, but they were not engaged in the police station.

25     They had their weapons that they had been issued with, they kept these

Page 12542

 1     weapons at home, and they guarded their own homes, their own villages.

 2     That's it.  That's the core of the matter.

 3        Q.   So these were not policemen, these were villagers who had been

 4     organised to protect their homes?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You said they were armed.  Who armed them?

 7        A.   As military conscripts, they were armed at the police department

 8     or the Ministry of the Interior through the inspector or rather, officer

 9     who was in charge of the reserve force.  They were all military

10     conscripts.

11        Q.   So they were armed as far as you know by the relevant officials

12     of the police department of the Ministry of the Interior?

13        A.   At the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac for our area.

14        Q.   Do you recall what type of arms or weapons they were issued?

15        A.   Well, I remember that they just had light infantry weapons,

16     rifles and pistols, that is.  Nothing else apart from that.

17        Q.   In the exercise or the discharge of your responsibilities as

18     chief of the police station in Stimlje, did you have to work with any of

19     these squads?

20        A.   I'm sorry.  I was not chief of the police station, I was

21     commander of the police station.

22        Q.   Sorry.  As commander of the police station, did you in the -- in

23     your work have to deal with these squads?

24        A.   Yes, we kept them under control because we sent police patrols,

25     regular police patrols every day to see them.  And their duty was as

Page 12543

 1     follows:  If they were attacked or in jeopardy, they were supposed to

 2     notify us via radio transmitters that they received from the police about

 3     such an attack so that we could help them on time.

 4        Q.   Did the MUP also provide them with these radio station

 5     facilities?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And when you said you kept them under control, could you explain

 8     a little bit more.  What was the responsibility of the MUP to keep these

 9     reserve police squads under control?

10        A.   Well, it meant that persons who had weapons should not abuse them

11     in any way, so we monitored that.  We were vigilant so that there would

12     be no abuse.

13        Q.   So it was the responsibility of the active MUP officers to ensure

14     that these civilians who had received these weapons use them according to

15     the law?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And who, if you can recall, was the MUP official in the area of

18     your police station that was responsible for exercising control, or most

19     responsible for exercising control over these RPOs in 1999?

20        A.   It was Gradimir Zivic, a police officer.  I think that was his

21     name.  He belonged to the police department of the Urosevac SUP.  Not the

22     police station of Stimlje.

23        Q.   I see.  Can you spell his name, please?

24        A.   Z, with a diacritic, i-v-i-c with a diacritic G-r-a-d-i-m-i-r.

25        Q.   You also said that they were composed, that is reserve police

Page 12544

 1     squads, of both Serbs and Kosovo Albanians?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I think you said, if I can find where I noted it, that in respect

 4     to the Albanians, and I'll quote:

 5             "I now cannot remember everybody's names, but I remember the

 6     families Qeremi and Olluri, they were all of them practically involved.

 7     I didn't have the list nor did I keep a register."

 8             Can you tell me or tell the Court approximately many Kosovo

 9     Albanians were engaged in these reserve police squads?

10        A.   I'm sorry, I don't think I said Karimi, I said Qeremi.

11        Q.   My fault, I'm sorry.  Qeremi.  And Olluri, is that the right

12     pronunciation?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How many Kosovo Albanians, can you recall, approximately were

15     involved in these reserve police squads in 1998, 1999?

16        A.   Well, I cannot remember the exact numbers.  For example, from the

17     Olluri family, there was Hysen Olluri with his three brothers, Nazmi, I

18     can't remember the names of the rest of them.  I know it was the four of

19     them, four brothers.  From the Qeremi family, Bedri was an active

20     policeman, his father, I can't remember his exact name now, and another

21     brother, I think.  Fatmir worked at the police station in Lipljan as an

22     active policemen, so it was from these families.  I cannot give you the

23     exact numbers just off the cuff because I don't know exactly how many of

24     them there were, but I know that they were there.

25        Q.   And the villages that you remember in your area that had the bulk

Page 12545

 1     of these reserve squads, and pardon my pronunciation, I may get it wrong,

 2     you said Muzicane?

 3        A.   Muzicane, that's the name of the village.

 4        Q.   Rasince?

 5        A.   Rasince.

 6        Q.   I think I might get this one right, Gornje Godance, right?  Is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Donje Godance.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   These were Serbian villages, were they not?

12        A.   These were multi-ethnic villages, they were not purely Serb

13     villages.  The majority population in these villages was Albanian.  There

14     were a few ethnic Serbs in these villages.

15        Q.   But it was the ethnic Serbs who were armed; am I not correct?

16        A.   Most of the Serbs were armed, but there were also Albanians who

17     were, that is to say that there were Albanians too, but most of the armed

18     persons were Serbs.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's see if we can -- the reserve police squads were

20     created in the middle of 1998; do you recall that?

21        A.   I cannot recall the exact date.

22        Q.   About the middle, approximately 1998?

23        A.   I really cannot remember the exact date, and I don't want to

24     engage in guess-work.

25             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at P901.

Page 12546

 1        Q.   The document from General Pavkovic who at the time was the

 2     commander of the Pristina Corps, and the time is the 26th of June, 1998.

 3     And it is about the arming of these RPOs.  Do you recall that the RPOs

 4     were armed by both the VJ and the MUP?

 5        A.   This is the first time I see this document.

 6        Q.   I'm just -- I'm not asking about the bona fides of the document

 7     right now.  You recall that the RPOs were armed by both the VJ and the

 8     MUP?

 9        A.   I don't know about that at all.  I really don't know what this is

10     all about.

11        Q.   You know that the MUP, I think you said that before, was involved

12     in arming the RPOs.  Do you know that the VJ also was involved in arming

13     the RPOs?

14        A.   I don't know about that.  I just know that what I said a few

15     moments ago, that the police had as its reserve force, it's reservists,

16     and that they armed them.  As for what the army did, I really don't know.

17     Maybe they did do this, but I really don't know.  I cannot testify to

18     that.

19        Q.   You told us yesterday, I think, that these reserve police squads

20     were composed of persons who were both military and police conscripts.

21        A.   Maybe I've been misunderstood.  Everybody is a military

22     conscript, including us, members of the police.  That's what I meant.

23        Q.   Well, you said that these persons were reserve police officers or

24     reserve soldiers, and they were armed as all of the members of the

25     reserve forces of either the police or the army.  This is at 12463, line

Page 12547

 1     13 to 16 yesterday.  You recall, Mr. Mladenovic, that some of the members

 2     of these RPOs were military conscripts who had not been mobilised as yet?

 3        A.   You see what this is all about, I have to explain this.

 4     Obviously you don't understand me.  All persons who had served their

 5     military service after doing that become military conscripts.  Part of

 6     the military conscripts belong to the reserve police force, whereas the

 7     rest are military conscripts and have military duty vis-a-vis the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia.  The reserve police force was armed by the police whereas

 9     this other part, the military conscripts, now, whether the army armed

10     them or not, that, I don't know.  And in which way they did that or they

11     were just military conscripts without weapons, just like the reserve

12     force that is unarmed.  I really cannot go into that.

13        Q.   Well, let's look at this document at paragraph 6.  Can you see

14     paragraph 6 there?  I'll read it because paragraph 6 on the English copy

15     goes from page 1 to page 2.  Do you have paragraph 6?

16             MR. STAMP:  If we could just move a little bit to the left on the

17     B/C/S copy so we could be able to see the paragraph number.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  We need to see the paragraph numbers in the B/C/S.

19             MR. STAMP:

20        Q.   He says in respect to the distribution of the weapons, and we'll

21     get back to that, "After completing distribution, prepare and organise

22     inhabited places for defence.  The military department commanders are

23     responsible for organising this -- move on to page 2 in the English --

24     for organising this in their zones of responsibility in co-operation with

25     the MUP and local self-government organs.  Form units in each village

Page 12548

 1     according to the military structure:  In squads, platoons, and

 2     companies."

 3             Now, does this help you, Mr. Mladenovic, that these squads were

 4     formed in co-operation with the VJ?

 5        A.   I do not remember at all that there was this kind of thing.  I'm

 6     telling you that I've never seen this document.  I never had an

 7     opportunity to meet someone from the army and agree on matters of this

 8     nature.  At my station, I never received this kind of document, I've

 9     never seen any such thing or did I have anything to do with any such

10     thing.  The army, that is.  They had their own chain of command, their

11     own command, I don't know what this is.

12        Q.   Yes.  You have told us already that you haven't seen the document

13     before.  Let me ask you this:  In the organisation of the RPOs, as you

14     know them, do you know of any VJ involvement in your area?

15        A.   I have not heard of that, not in my area.

16        Q.   Were some of the members of the RPOs in your area issued with

17     automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifles, light machine-guns, sniper

18     rifles?

19        A.   Yes, I've already said that they received infantry weapons as

20     prescribed.  I meant rifles.  I don't know exactly which kinds, but there

21     were automatic and semi-automatic rifles, and that would be it.

22        Q.   Machine-guns?

23        A.   I don't think so.  I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

24        Q.   How many RPOs, reserve police squads, were in the area of the

25     jurisdiction of the Stimlje police in 1999, let me narrow it down a bit?

Page 12549

 1        A.   I think there were two in Muzicane with Rasince and the village

 2     of Godance, Gornje Godance and Donje Godance that is, and Petrovic.  That

 3     was one police squad.  I think it was only those two.  I don't think that

 4     there were any more in the territory of the police station of Stimlje,

 5     that is.

 6        Q.   Do you know how many were in Urosevac?

 7        A.   Urosevac is a big city, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Do you know how many were within the SUP of Urosevac?

 9        A.   I don't know.  This was roughly the information that I had at the

10     police station of Stimlje.  It was only for the police station of

11     Stimlje.  I don't know about the rest because in the territory of the SUP

12     of Urosevac, there was the police station of Urosevac, OUP Kacanik, and

13     the Strpci police station.  These are big areas.

14             MR. STAMP:  Let's look a P1055.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Before we

17     move on to the next document, I simply have to react since when this

18     document was being introduced P901, my learned friend Mr. Stamp said that

19     it had do with arming reserve police squads.  I think -- it's not that I

20     think, I'm sure, there is no mention whatsoever of such squads in this

21     document anywhere.  I simply think that this is an unfair line of

22     questioning.  I think the answer doesn't matter any more whether it works

23     in favour of the Defence or the Prosecution.  I simply think that dealing

24     with matters in this way is not in the interest of these proceedings not

25     going into the witness's answers at all.  There is no mention whatsoever

Page 12550

 1     of reserve police squads in this document, not in a single place, and I

 2     think that that is so unfair.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, the Prosecution's case is based on this

 4     document and many others is that this document refers to the formation of

 5     the reserve police squads and that can be substantiated by a lot of

 6     evidence from the witness.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Does the document suggest that?

 8             MR. STAMP:  The document itself does not say reserve police

 9     squads.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Right.  It was put to the witness without any

11     qualification, Mr. Stamp.  You didn't get him to comment on whether it

12     was a document referring to reserve police squads, and the questions you

13     put about it suggested that it was.  Now, you can see the basis for the

14     objection of unfairness in that, so would you please bear that in mind in

15     future.  Thank you.

16             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will just, without making

17     much of it, I think my question and the introduction is at page 21 of the

18     record.

19             If we could look at P1055.

20        Q.   This is a document dated the 16th of February, 1999 to the Chief

21     of Staff, to the MUP staff for Kosovo and Metohija.  Do you recall in

22     mid-February there was -- there were visits from members of the MUP staff

23     in order to audit the work of the RPOs in the various secretariats?

24        A.   I don't remember any audits by the staff in my police station.  I

25     had no opportunity to see this document, this is some sort of dispatch,

Page 12551

 1     but it has to do with Pristina.  The Pristina secretariat is sending a

 2     dispatch to the staff in Pristina as far as I can see here.  I really

 3     know nothing about this.  At Stimlje police station there was no meeting

 4     involving both the staff and the reserve police squads.  That is what I

 5     can tell you for certain.

 6             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at page 2 in B/C/S, page 2 in

 7     English.  I'm sorry, it is page 1 in B/C/S and the page in English is

 8     correct, page 2.  It would seem to be the middle of page 1 in B/C/S.

 9        Q.   Just to see if you remember, it indicated the purpose of the

10     meetings or the purpose of the visits was to hold meetings with the

11     commanders of the reserve police squads, I think this should be, that

12     were also attended by the chiefs of the secretariats of the interior,

13     police department chiefs, police department officers, and police

14     department's deputy commanders in charge of organisations and functioning

15     of the reserve police squads in their respective areas as well as VJ army

16     officers in charge of defence of towns and villages with the Serbian and

17     Montenegrin population.  Do you see that paragraph?

18        A.   Yes.  I see the paragraph, but I don't know what your question

19     is.

20        Q.   I'm about to ask it.  Well, firstly, does this remind you that

21     these reserve police squads were monitored and armed by the VJ as well as

22     the MUP?

23        A.   What I can say based on what I see here in this document, this

24     says that such a meeting was held at the Urosevac MUP and that the chiefs

25     of the departments of police were present and other people, but no

Page 12552

 1     commander of any police station.  I'm not familiar with this.  I don't

 2     know these details so I cannot answer.

 3        Q.   It also indicates that the meetings were in respect to RPOs that

 4     were responsible for the defence of towns and villages with Serbian and

 5     Montenegrin population.  Do you recall that that was the purpose of

 6     [indiscernible] of the RPOs?

 7        A.   I don't remember that.  I know that the main reason why they were

 8     armed was to enable them to protect their families, no more than that.  I

 9     don't remember this.

10             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go to page 7, I think, in the English

11     and 3 in B/C/S.

12        Q.   You see a chart here with a breakdown of weapons that had been

13     issued in the various municipalities to these RPO members.  In item 6 for

14     your secretariat Urosevac, there were 1.928 weapons issued by the MUP and

15     3.023 weapons issued by the VJ.  Are you aware that this -- that this

16     number of weapons had been issued to these persons within the Urosevac

17     secretariat?

18        A.   I've never seen this document.  This is the first time.

19        Q.   Are you aware that any number approximating to this, any number

20     of weapons approximating to this had been issued to these civilians in

21     the Urosevac area, at the SUP Urosevac area?

22        A.   I don't know the number.  I don't know how many weapons were

23     distributed in the territory of the Urosevac SUP.  I never had the

24     opportunity to see anything relating to it, nor did I hear anything about

25     it.

Page 12553

 1        Q.   And if we look at the bottom of your page and go to the next page

 2     in B/C/S.  Sorry, the bottom in B/C/S, the bottom of that page in B/C/S

 3     and the next page in English, the first bullet point, about the

 4     conclusions reached at the meetings, that they were to urgently hold

 5     meetings in all RPOs with the presence of representatives of the MUP, VJ,

 6     and municipal staffs.  You have told us, Mr. Mladenovic, that your SUP

 7     chief would communicate many orders and decisions to you.  Did he

 8     communicate this conclusion or decision to you?

 9        A.   He never communicated this order to me or a report like this, so

10     I cannot really comment this document.  This concerns the Urosevac SUP.

11     I never had the chance to see it or know anything about this.  This

12     document was never forwarded to me.

13        Q.   Yes, but I'm just trying to use it to see if I can jog your

14     memory, because you are saying that you had SUPs within -- sorry, you had

15     RPOs within your jurisdiction, and many times you received decisions in

16     respect to the areas within your competence from your SUP chief.  I am

17     just asking you if in respect to the second bullet point, "to urgently

18     activate regular services in exclusively Serbian communities, as well as

19     reconnaissance, monitoring, and ambush setting services in ethnically

20     mixed communities," if that decision was communicated to you by your SUP

21     chief?

22        A.   I don't remember any such decision.  I was never informed of

23     this, and I don't know anything about it.

24        Q.   Incidentally who was your immediate superior in 1999?

25        A.   The chief of the department of the police Radomir Mitic.  And the

Page 12554

 1     chief of the SUP was Bogoljub Janicijevic.

 2        Q.   Could both of them be described as your immediate superiors, or

 3     is there one that you were directly answerable to?

 4        A.   I said that the chief of the SUP was chief for the entire

 5     secretariat, and the chief of the department of the police was in charge

 6     of police squads and police stations.  All orders went through the chief

 7     of the department of the police.  If I were to receive an order, it would

 8     have gone through the chief of the department of the police.  That was

 9     the chain of command, and I reported to the chief of the department of

10     police, and he would inform the chief of the SUP.  Sometimes I would get

11     information directly at meetings that I attended, or sometimes the chief

12     would forward some information about some tasks, but not what we are

13     talking about now.  And with regard to this document --

14        Q.   We know you haven't seen it before, I'm just trying to see if you

15     can remember what happened on the basis of this.  During the war, the

16     NATO intervention in 1999, the RPOs were sometimes were used to guard

17     important routes or facilities, were they not?

18        A.   Reserve police squads never secured any facilities.  They only

19     guarded their own homes and themselves, no more than that.

20        Q.   When there were joint operations -- or before I get to that, you

21     know that during the war there were many times joint operations with the

22     VJ and the MUP acting in co-ordination?

23        A.   I don't know that the MUP and the VJ acted in co-ordination.  I

24     know that the MUP had its own command through the MUP staff for the AP

25     KiM in Pristina, and there was a chain of command that went down, but I

Page 12555

 1     know nothing about a joint command.  I never saw a document about it, nor

 2     do I know anything about such a thing.

 3        Q.   I wasn't asking about a joint command, Mr. Mladenovic.  Are you

 4     saying, though, that during the course of the war, there were no

 5     anti-terrorist operations where MUP forces acted in co-ordination with

 6     the VJ that you know of?

 7        A.   I know that PJPs carried out operations under the command of the

 8     staff in Pristina, nothing else.  I'm not aware of any joint operations.

 9     My police station never carried out such assignments.  I believe that

10     this question should be asked to somebody else.  My police station only

11     went about its regular jobs and tasks, and I mentioned them, the

12     protection of the lives and the personal security --

13             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at P767 very quickly.  Or maybe we could

14     take the break and do that after the break.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well, we'll have the first break now and

16     resume at 20 past 4.00.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit down.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

24             MR. STAMP:

25        Q.   Last time you were here -- thank you, Your Honours.

Page 12556

 1             Last time you were here, Witness, you said that the reserve

 2     police squads never guarded any facilities, they only secured their own

 3     homes and their own lives, and that was all?

 4             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at D824.

 5        Q.   You were shown this also earlier today.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I think you just agreed with me that the reserve police squads,

 8     your evidence is that the reserve police squads never guarded any

 9     facilities, only their own homes and their own lives; does that remain

10     your testimony?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If you look at this document, especially the last sentence, is it

13     referring to the reserve police squads?

14        A.   No.  This document refers to temporary police squads.

15        Q.   What is the distinction between these temporary police squads and

16     these reserve police squads?

17        A.   A temporary police squad is established based on the minister's

18     order.  At that time it was in line with the Milosevic-Holbrooke

19     Agreement for the purpose of controlling the road from Stimlje, or

20     rather, from Pristina through Stimlje and Suva Reka to Prizren and all

21     the way to the Crnoljevska gorge.  So a temporary police squad is

22     established pursuant to the minister's order.

23        Q.   They are composed of active duty policemen?

24        A.   Both active duty and reserve policemen, as in all police stations

25     and squads.

Page 12557

 1        Q.   They didn't have civilians in their ranks as the RPOs?

 2        A.   No, they didn't have any armed civilians.  They were all

 3     uniformed police officers.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.  Could we look at P767.

 5        Q.   This one is, on the face of a document is an order of a Joint

 6     Command for Kosovo and Metohija.  Earlier without any prompting from me,

 7     you volunteered to us that you didn't know anything about any Joint

 8     Command.  Nonetheless, I'd like you to have a quick look at this

 9     document.  Have you ever seen orders in this format before?

10        A.   No, I haven't.  This is a military document of sorts.  I haven't

11     seen it.

12             MR. STAMP:  If we look at -- well, let's look at the date first.

13     This is in respect to the 15th of April, 1999, and if we could look at

14     page 4 of the English, and I think that's just about page 2 in the B/C/S.

15     In any case, we want to see item 5 and the sentence -- the two bullet

16     points before item 5.

17        Q.   If you look at the bullet point before item 5 it's for routing

18     their terrorist forces in the area of Jezerce on the 23rd of April, 1999.

19     If look at item 5 you can see that the task of the units of the Pristina

20     Corps is to support MUP forces in routing and destroying the STS along

21     the axis of Dulje, and you can read on to see the other villages.  Were

22     these areas, Dulje in particular, within or close to the area of your

23     police station?

24        A.   The village of Dulje belongs to the Suva Reka municipality.  The

25     village of Petrovo is part of the Stimlje municipality.  Budakovo belongs

Page 12558

 1     to Nerodimlje.  Jezerce, Budakovo, Plesina, they all belong to Urosevac.

 2     Nerodimlje, Budakovo, Jezerce, Plesina, all these villages are in the

 3     municipality of Urosevac.

 4        Q.   Very well, so the axis would have included areas in Urosevac as

 5     well as an area in the Stimlje police area of responsibility.  Now, do

 6     you recall this joint military police operation?

 7        A.   I don't remember any joint military police operation.

 8        Q.   During the war, were there any anti-terrorist operations at all

 9     that came to your notice?  I mean, within your evidence, Mr. Mladenovic

10     you told us a lot about what your SUP chief told you, what your staff

11     told you, what your department head told you.  Did it come to your notice

12     at any time during the war that there were anti-terrorist operations

13     within Urosevac?

14        A.   No, and it was not in my sphere of interest because I was busy

15     doing other work at the Stimlje police station.  I didn't have such

16     information.

17        Q.   Did the Stimlje police station have an obligation to provide

18     members of the PJP for joint -- well, not necessarily joint, but for

19     anti-terrorist operations conducted by the 124th PJP Brigade?

20        A.   I can only repeat that the PJP unit, the company at Urosevac

21     carried out its tasks and reported to its command.  I as commander of the

22     police station had no communication with the PJP, so I don't know what

23     they did or what kind of work they did in the field.  My police station

24     had 11 police officers who were also members of the PJP unit of the

25     Urosevac SUP.  I don't know if you understand me.

Page 12559

 1        Q.   Yes, I understand.  But when you had to deploy them to be engaged

 2     with the Urosevac brigade, that's the 124th Brigade, didn't you know what

 3     your 11 men were going to be up to?  You didn't know what tasks they were

 4     going to perform?

 5        A.   Exactly.  I never knew what they were doing.  I only had to

 6     provide logistical support, that is inform the persons in question, make

 7     sure that they come and place them at the disposal of the unit to which

 8     they belong.

 9             MR. STAMP:  If we look at item 2 of this document, it is page 2

10     in the English.

11        Q.   First paragraph, the task of the VJ, the Pristina Corps with

12     reinforcements and armed non-Siptar population of Kosovo and Metohija,

13     support the MUP forces in routing and destroying the STS in the area of

14     responsibility.  Were you not aware, Mr. Mladenovic, that the VJ, the

15     MUP, and civilians described as armed non-Siptars were engaged in

16     operations within the zone of your police station?

17        A.   I had no reports or information about that.  There were military

18     units in the territory of the municipality of Stimlje, but they had their

19     own command, and they answered to their own command.  They had no points

20     in common with us, our police station.  We had nothing in common.  They

21     did their work, we did our work.  I really don't know who was within

22     their composition.  We didn't even see each other, as a matter of fact.

23     We knew where everyone was, but they knew that the police station was

24     carrying out its own work, so we did not interfere in each other's work,

25     ever.

Page 12560

 1        Q.   I'm not talking about interference.  There is a war going on, you

 2     are chief of the police station for the municipality -- sorry, commander

 3     of the police station for the municipality, and we have here what on the

 4     face of it seems to be a major operation along a major axis that cuts

 5     into your municipality in Petrovo.  Yes, I was right, Petrovo.  And you

 6     are saying you just did not know at all that this operation was carried

 7     out?

 8        A.   The village of Petrovo is in a forested area to the south-west of

 9     Stimlje.  It is certainly not on the road where the police was, or did

10     police patrols during the war go to the village of Petrovo Selo, they

11     could not.  That part was under the control of the terrorists for awhile

12     and then other units, so we did not go into that forest.

13        Q.   Yes, but remember I'm not asking you if your police or the police

14     that you were commanding directly, were participating in it.  I'm just

15     asking you if you as commander even knew about it, and you are saying you

16     never even knew about it?

17        A.   That's right.  I didn't know about it.

18        Q.   Very well.  Let's turn to your police station.  There were

19     inspectors of police that sometimes were engaged at your police station.

20     One was Jasovic.  Can you tell us his full name?

21        A.   You see, at the Stimlje police station there was no crime police

22     department.  Dragan Jasovic is an employee of the crime police department

23     in Urosevac, not in Stimlje.

24        Q.   But did he go down to Stimlje sometimes to conduct investigation

25     and work?

Page 12561

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And was there another one by the name of Sparavalo from Urosevac?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And he also would attend at Stimlje to conduct investigations?

 5        A.   That's right.  Momcilo Sparavalo, that was his name, was also an

 6     employee of the crime police department.  They conducted all crime police

 7     work in the territory of the police station of Stimlje.

 8        Q.   And as a matter of fact, do you recall that during your testimony

 9     when you were being asked questions by counsel for the Defence, you

10     referred to quite a few statements that had been taken by either one or

11     both of them?

12        A.   That's correct.  I remember quite a few things that had happened.

13     I cannot remember individually all the persons there, but every person

14     that was brought into custody to the police station on any grounds and

15     that had anything to do with crime, well, an Official Note would be

16     compiled, and it would be recorded in the daily log-book at the duty

17     service station, and the person would be handed over to the OKP

18     inspectors.  That was standard procedure that was in force during the

19     bombing and before the bombing throughout my work as commander of the

20     police station.

21        Q.   Did you ever in your work as commander of the police station hear

22     of allegations that Jasovic was involved in torturing prisoners, persons

23     who had been detained?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did you ever hear any allegations --

Page 12562

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you ever hear any allegations that he had been involved in

 3     applying electricity to persons who were in the custody of the police?

 4        A.   I have never heard of any such thing.

 5        Q.   In particular, do you -- have you ever heard of any allegation

 6     that both Jasovic and Sparavalo beat and tortured including the

 7     application of electricity to Kosovo Albanian civilians, suspects on a

 8     regular basis?  You never heard any allegations like that?

 9        A.   I do not recall any such allegations.  They had their own

10     superior and their office at the Urosevac SUP, so these persons that we

11     handed over to them they took them over and they conducted interviews at

12     the building of the secretariat in Urosevac, in their offices.  They were

13     there under their own superiors, not the police station.  I've never

14     heard of all these things that you are talking about, nor did any such

15     thing ever happen at the police station in Stimlje.

16        Q.   Was there at some point before the NATO intervention a police

17     officer, also a lawyer, who was employed within the Urosevac police SUP

18     by the name of Hebib Koka, K-o-k-a?

19        A.   I personally know Hebib Koka.  You are referring to Hebib Koka

20     who was an employee of the OUP of Kacanik.  As far as I know he was not a

21     police chief, he was an inspector, he was a colleague, he belonged to the

22     OUP of Kacanik.  So from Stimlje, that's about 100 kilometres away.

23     Well, perhaps it's not 100, it's about 70, I don't know exactly.

24        Q.   At some point this police officer worked in Urosevac with

25     Mr. Jasovic and Mr. Sparavalo.  Do you not know that?

Page 12563

 1        A.   I think that they never worked together in the same office, as

 2     far as I know.  Hebib Koka worked at the OUP Kacanik, and Jasovic and

 3     Sparavalo worked at the Urosevac SUP.

 4        Q.   Do you know or have you ever heard of any allegations from your

 5     former colleague Mr. Koka about the brutality that had been inflicted on

 6     the Kosovo Albanians civilians by Mr. Jasovic and Mr. Sparavalo in the

 7     course of their work for the police?

 8        A.   As far as I know, I knew Hebib Koka personally.

 9        Q.   Did you hear of that from him?

10        A.   Never.

11        Q.   Did you become aware that he had said or made those allegations?

12        A.   I hadn't heard about that either.

13        Q.   How about the OSCE, did they ask the questions about allegations

14     of police torturing Kosovo Albanian civilians?

15        A.   I don't remember all the things that we discussed with the

16     verifiers.  However, everything that we discussed with them is contained

17     in the reports that I submitted.  If it is in the report, then that is

18     the case, but I cannot remember right now.  As for each and every one of

19     the contacts I had with the verifiers, I compiled a report, so there is a

20     record of what we had discussed.  So if there were such questions, that

21     has to be in the report.

22        Q.   I take it from your answer that it is possible but you don't

23     remember; is that what you are saying?  It is possible that the OSCE

24     representatives raised the issue of beatings and torture of Kosovo

25     Albanians with you?

Page 12564

 1        A.   It is possible that they raised such questions, but I don't

 2     remember, and I don't remember any specific case.  There has to be a

 3     report about such contacts between myself and them and then that would

 4     have to be written there.

 5             MR. STAMP:  If we could probably look briefly at P1029.  It's an

 6     OSCE document.  The Blue Book.  Page 17 in English, which is page 19 in

 7     B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Last sentence:

 9             "The KLA commander reported that villagers trying to get to

10     Stimlje or Urosevac are regularly arrested and tortured with electricity

11     in an attempt to get information about the KLA from them."

12             Can you recall the KVM monitors raising these matters with you?

13        A.   It is possible that that was the case, but right now I cannot

14     remember.

15        Q.   And since we are on this page, you note that in the second

16     sentence it refers to the presence of VJ tanks and artillery close to KLA

17     positions.  Were there VJ tanks and artillery, and I'm now directing you

18     to Racak, close to KLA positions in Racak on the 13th of January, which

19     is the date of this report?

20        A.   As far as I can see from this document, there is no reference to

21     Racak or to a place where there are tanks.  It only says in the area of

22     Stimlje, it said that the tanks and the artillery are within 200 metres

23     of KLA positions.  I really don't see where these tanks were, and I don't

24     know what particular place this is referring to.  Stimlje is big, 22.000

25     inhabitants, and then these villages that I mentioned.  I cannot really

Page 12565

 1     say.  And also when --

 2        Q.   Yes, I know that the document doesn't refer to Racak, but since

 3     we were on this page because I'm going to get to that later, and we are

 4     going to get to this page, can you recall VJ tanks being in the vicinity

 5     of Racak in the days leading up to the operation that began on the 15th

 6     of January?

 7        A.   What I know is that in accordance with the agreement between

 8     Milosevic and Holbrooke, the road between Stimlje, Crnoljevo, Dulje, that

 9     according to that agreement, the army had some authority over that road.

10     They were located in two places.  I don't know how to explain this to you

11     now.  It's a forest on the right-hand side.  Quite opposite in relation

12     to Racak.  And they were also in Dulje.  Their task was just like of the

13     temporary police squad, to protect the road.  That's in accordance with

14     the agreement.  And these are small military units at that.  I don't even

15     know who they belonged to.  So they had their own work there, and that is

16     probably it.  And I'm not aware of the tanks and the rest that are

17     mentioned here.

18        Q.   How far were these units from Racak on or about the 13th, 12th of

19     January?

20        A.   Well, I don't know exactly how far away as the crow flies, but I

21     could show this to you on a map if you have a map.  If you have a map of

22     the area of Stimlje, I can show it to you, but I really wouldn't know

23     what the exact distance is.

24        Q.   Can you estimate it?

25        A.   Well, roughly 5 or 6 kilometres further from Racak, but then

Page 12566

 1     there's this hill in front of Racak, so Racak is in a valley and then the

 2     hill after that, and the army was here on the other side, on the side

 3     opposite in relation to that.  And in a forest, in a pine wood at that.

 4     And Dulje was in the direction of Suva Reka 20 or 30 kilometres away, so

 5     behind the second hill, they were along the road on the other side from

 6     Stimlje all the way to Dulje via Petrastica and Zborce.  That was where

 7     their zone was, so it really had nothing do with our positions.

 8        Q.   Sir, 5 to 6 kilometres from Racak you said, approximately.  And

 9     the second unit at Dulje in the direction of Suva Reka was 20 to 30

10     kilometres away from Racak?

11        A.   Approximately, that's what I can say, but I'm telling you, I'm

12     not sure, I don't have a map in front of me, and I never measured the

13     actual distance.  The verifiers knew about that.  They perhaps know

14     better what the exact distance was.  That was always there from the

15     signing of the agreement until the end of the war.

16        Q.   Let's get back to the treatment of the civilians.  And before we

17     do that, can you just clear up one thing for me.

18             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at D137.

19        Q.   You were shown this document by the attorney for the Defence, and

20     you are explaining that it referred to Kosovo Albanian who you had

21     relayed this story of his treatment by the KLA to the KVM monitors.  If

22     you -- you are familiar with this document, I think you wrote it.  I just

23     noticed, if you look -- if we look in the middle of the first paragraph,

24     which is about 11 lines up in the English, I see that you refer to this

25     person as a victimised citizen of Albanian nationality.  A few lines

Page 12567

 1     down, you refer to Siptar terrorists.  Two further lines down, you refer

 2     to Siptar terrorists.  And two lines down in the English copy when you

 3     are talking about loyal citizens of the Republic of Serbia, you refer to

 4     them as members of the Albanian ethnic community.  I just wanted to ask

 5     if there's a reason for this distinction between the expression Siptar

 6     and the members of the Albanian community?  Are you referring to the same

 7     ethnicity there?

 8        A.   You see what this is, in Albanian one says "shqiptar," that is

 9     Siptar as translated, Albanian, it's all one in the same thing.  So the

10     Albanians themselves say I'm a Siptar.  He says "une jam shqiptar."  The

11     only difference is in expressing oneself.  I'm using both terms because I

12     speak both languages.  Sometimes I say Siptar, sometimes I say Albanian.

13     So the translation can be I'm an Albanian, but in Albanian you don't use

14     that actual word.

15        Q.   Okay.  So if we turn to the next page, we see the same theme,

16     like five lines down in the English you refer to Siptar terrorists, in

17     the middle of the page discussing terrorist activities you refer to

18     Siptar terrorists, but then near the end about 10 or 11 lines up in the

19     English, you refer to the citizen of Albanian nationality.  That's the

20     one that the police had speaking to the KVM monitors.  Your explanation

21     is that you were basically using the two expressions interchangeably,

22     that is the expressions Albanian and Siptar.

23        A.   I'm telling you, when the Albanians speak themselves, that's what

24     they say.  They cannot say it that way.  They say Siptar.

25        Q.   I understand that the Albanian word is "Siptar" but you wrote a

Page 12568

 1     report in Serbian, and I just asked you, you use it interchangeably in

 2     this report without any special meaning attached to the word "Siptar"?

 3        A.   I meant one in the same thing here.  We in Kosovo who speak both

 4     languages often mix expressions from both languages.  Many words that we

 5     use in Kosovo are not used in Serbia.  I can give you some examples.

 6        Q.   Thanks, but I've heard your explanation.

 7             MR. STAMP:  If we look at D140.

 8        Q.   This is another report you wrote and you use the same interesting

 9     language.  This was where you were reporting that the KVM observers were

10     indicating that a situation in the area of Stimlje municipality had

11     turned from calm to tense.  You recall that was evidence of the person

12     you spoke about spoke about yesterday -- question withdrawn.  I will get

13     to that when we are in private session.

14             Let us get to the language here.  You see in the first paragraph

15     here, line 11, you use an interesting expression, "armed attacks by

16     Siptar terrorists targeting their fellow Albanians."  In that phrase, you

17     are again using the two expressions interchangeably, meaning the same

18     thing.

19        A.   You may not have noticed, but I often use the original

20     abbreviation that they themselves used, the Serbs use, UCK, rather than

21     KLA.  I know what it stands for in Albanian, it means translated, Kosovo

22     Liberation Army.  It's along the same lines as what I've been explaining

23     for the term Siptar.  I've always used the term that was adequate in the

24     context.

25             MR. STAMP:  Okay.  While we are on this document, could I just,

Page 12569

 1     Your Honour, go into private session to I may just mention one thing.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

 3                           [Private session]

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Page 12570











11 Page 12570 redacted. Private session.















Page 12571

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

10             MR. STAMP:

11        Q.   You said that the Albanians left because of bombing being caught

12     in a potential cross-fire between the security forces and the KLA, and

13     you mentioned also the use of depleted uranium in the bombing.  Can

14     you -- before I ask that question, did you discuss the issue of depleted

15     uranium before you came here to testify?

16        A.   I don't understand, discuss with who?  With who could I have

17     discussed that?

18        Q.   Did you have any discussion in relation to your testimony

19     particularly in relation to depleted uranium before you came here to

20     testify?

21        A.   No, I didn't.  Depleted uranium, I had an exam at the civil

22     protection faculty.  There was a subject of nuclear biologic chemical

23     defence, so I'm informed about depleted uranium.  There was absolutely no

24     need.

25        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... about whether you discussed it in

Page 12572

 1     relation to your testimony.

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Do you know if there are any strikes using depleted uranium in

 4     Stimlje area that came to your attention in 1999?

 5        A.   I don't know whether such weapons were used, but the propaganda,

 6     when I spoke about it yesterday, I meant that the propaganda was such

 7     that bombs containing depleted uranium would be dropped, and that after

 8     that, 4.000 years the area would be uninhabitable.  That was propaganda,

 9     and of course the intention was to get the population leave the area.

10        Q.   My mistake, I thought that perhaps you were saying that there

11     were depleted uranium strikes in Stimlje.

12             When you met these columns of Kosovo Albanians --

13        A.   No one of us saw that, so we don't know whether there were bombs

14     containing depleted uranium and the rest.  That was part of the

15     propaganda.  And I said that in the area of Drenica there was a radio

16     station which from 3.00 p.m. to 5.00 p.m. I believe daily broadcast

17     propaganda in Albanian.  Probably it was an illegal radio station.

18     That's what I spoke about.  And there were also flyers that were being

19     scattered to that effect.  So this was propaganda.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  I think you are going a little bit beyond.

21     I'm trying to move quickly as well.

22             You said that when you spoke to these Kosovo Albanians who were

23     leaving in the columns during the war, they mentioned the bombing

24     possible cross-fire, and depleted uranium.  Did any of them, even one of

25     them, mention that they were afraid of Yugoslav security forces?

Page 12573

 1        A.   You know something, they never contacted me to say that they were

 2     afraid of our forces.  But they were saying to the Serbs that they were

 3     afraid of NATO's bombs and the Albanians.  Those were the Serbs that were

 4     saying that.  And the Albanians were saying that they were afraid of the

 5     Serbs.  But everybody was equally afraid, Serbs and the Albanians alike.

 6     And they all were leaving the area.  Even my family and the neighbourhood

 7     in Urosevac where we lived also had -- left for fear --

 8        Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, if you confine yourself to answering my

 9     questions, we'd spend a much shorter time here.

10             You said that Albanians were saying that they were afraid of the

11     Serbs?  Is that what you said?  Serb -- well, that is what the record

12     says you said.  Did they say that they were afraid of Serbs in general or

13     the armed Serbs and the Serb security forces?

14        A.   You misunderstood me again.  It's because of the question you put

15     to me.  I wanted to explain that no Albanian ever said to me that they

16     were afraid of Serbs, but rather that they were afraid of the Albanians

17     who were standing up against the Serbs.  And they were also afraid of the

18     bombs that were being dropped from planes.  That was's what they were

19     saying to us -- to me.  And I also -- and I believe that they spoke --

20     what they were saying to the Albanians was that they were afraid of the

21     Serbs, but I can only assume what they were saying to the Albanians.

22        Q.   You believe that they were telling their fellow Albanians that

23     they were afraid of the Serbs.  How did you come to that conclusion?

24        A.   That's what I assume.

25        Q.   Why, what caused you to conclude that they would be telling their

Page 12574

 1     fellow Albanians that they were afraid of the Serbs?

 2        A.   Because in these reports the verifiers related such information.

 3     We got different information from the verifiers.  I believe that they

 4     were being lied to, that they heard statements such as the Serbs

 5     terrorising people rather than the Albanian terrorists terrorising.

 6        Q.   I see.  Is it not possible, Mr. Mladenovic, that they would be

 7     telling this to the verifiers and to their fellow Albanians, but not to

 8     you because you were a member of the Serbian security forces, and they

 9     were afraid of you?

10        A.   I'm telling you that at the police station they -- we also had

11     Albanians who reported that they were -- had been mistreated.  I

12     mentioned Ibish Qari, and there were other instances of abductions.

13        Q.   Don't you agree with me that it is possible that the reason why

14     they would be saying to their fellow Albanians and to the KVM monitors

15     that they were afraid of the Serbs but they would not say to you is

16     because you were a police officer and they were afraid of the police;

17     isn't that a possibility?

18        A.   I disapprove of this question of yours, and I cannot answer it.

19     I said that this was by assumption.  You are now putting this question

20     back to me as my answer.

21             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at the flyer again.  D6 -- Your Honours, I

22     think I'm reminded that we were supposed to take the break early?  Oh,

23     I'm sorry, we haven't reached that point yet.

24             D698, I think.  Yes, it is D698.

25        Q.   Now, I want you to understand, Mr. Mladenovic, that I don't for a

Page 12575

 1     moment accept that this was a document issued by Mr. Rugova, but it

 2     states particularly in the last paragraph or the last two sentences that:

 3             "The forces of the KLA are unable to offer resistance to the Serb

 4     forces and to defend the Albanian people, and we invite all Albanians

 5     threatened by the attack of Serb occupation forces temporarily to

 6     evacuate in the direction of Macedonia and Albania."

 7             And it is your evidence that this document caused a lot of fear.

 8     Wasn't that fear, fear of the Serb forces?

 9        A.   I said that when we were discussing one of the reasons that in

10     those days propaganda was widespread, and this flyer is evidence of such

11     propaganda that was disseminated among the civilian population, that they

12     would be caught in cross-fire, and that the KLA was unable to protect

13     them, and that they should evacuate toward Macedonia or around Albania,

14     but the Albanians also went in the direction of Bujanovac and Presevo.

15     So --

16        Q.   Please, I'm going to stop you there.  The flyer says the KLA is

17     unable to offer resistance.  And they invite people threatened by the

18     attack of the Serb occupational forces to temporarily evacuate, and you

19     said that this flyer, the purpose of this was to instill fear.  Wasn't

20     this fear of the Serb security forces?  Isn't that what you meant?

21        A.   I was speaking about the propaganda as it was at the time, and

22     this flyer was disseminated in yards and everywhere as propaganda, and I

23     said that I knew this -- I knew this flyer and that it caused a fear and

24     panic in the civilian population.

25             And the consequence of that was not only that the Albanians were

Page 12576

 1     leaving, but also Serbs.

 2        Q.   But my question to you on the basis of this flyer is that the

 3     flyer, if it caused fear in the Albanian population, it would be because

 4     the Albanian population was afraid of the Serb security forces, because

 5     that is what the flyer referred to as a threat?

 6        A.   I'm saying that this propaganda caused the fear and not what this

 7     flyer says.  It wasn't just this.  There was also the KLA radio that

 8     disseminated propaganda, there were planes dropping flyers where the --

 9        Q.   No, no, no, let's move on to talk about K-86.

10             MR. STAMP:  And I think we should do that in private session,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

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Page 12577











11 Pages 12577-12578 redacted. Private session.















Page 12579

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 6                           [Open Session]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I am afraid we need to return to private session.

 8     I don't think Mr. Stamp has finished with questions in private session,

 9     have you?

10             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honours, I have not.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Will you be very long in private session?

12             MR. STAMP:  I hope not, but I think I will be 15, 20 minutes in

13     private session.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I see.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12580











11 Pages 12580-12594 redacted. Private session.















Page 12595

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   I don't understand you to be saying that Mr. Sainovic did not

 6     call the police station that morning, so let me ask you now, do you know

 7     about that?  Do you know about whether or not Mr. Sainovic called, or are

 8     you not aware of it?

 9        A.   Here is what I can say.  I don't know nor did I ever hear that

10     Mr. Sainovic called up the police station at Stimlje.  Nobody ever told

11     me so.  That's what I said.  I was not going into the issue whether or

12     not he could have called or not.  I only said that Sainovic never called

13     up the police station, at least I as commander was never informed of

14     that.  If I wasn't there on the 20th, it was either the deputy commander

15     who could have informed me because he was there, he was responsible for

16     the station, and there were two assistants.  Nobody ever told me that

17     Mr. Sainovic had called.  They only informed me on the 20th that General

18     Djordjevic was present on the 18th.  And that's all I know.

19             Whether or not Mr. Sainovic called that morning or whether he

20     called anybody else, that's not a piece of information I ever had.

21             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I think I am finished, but there is

22     some dissent on the Prosecution side as to whether I'm finished.  And

23     therefore, I wonder if we could take it now --

24             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

25             MR. STAMP:  Yes, sir.

Page 12596

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  We adjourn overnight again.  Mr. Stamp may have

 2     more questions for you, Mr. Popovic will, I anticipate.  So we must ask

 3     you to return again tomorrow.  A Court Officer will assist you overnight.

 4             We now adjourn.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

 8                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.