Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13633

 1                           Tuesday, 20 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  I understand that before the

 6     witness comes in, there's a matter that you wish to raise, Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Yes, I

 8     would like to inform the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution of our

 9     intentions in the further leading of our case.  As you have noted, and I

10     believe that the Prosecution has already observed this, there was no

11     notification yesterday for our upcoming witnesses, for the witnesses two

12     weeks from now.  In our prior notification, we notified the five

13     witnesses, and the Trial Chamber approved one of those witnesses to

14     testify via videolink, I believe, after the 12th of -- the week of the

15     12th of May, but we are now faced with a problem in finding the right

16     time for an expert witness who dealt with the problems of the role of the

17     chief of the security -- state security department.

18             We have been unable so far to establish a time when he would be

19     able to appear.  As things stand now, that is either going to be in the

20     week of the 10th or the 17th of May, but I cannot actually confirm either

21     date.  What I can say is that the remaining witnesses on that list will

22     not be called by the Defence.  We have decided not to call them.

23             And I believe both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution need to

24     be informed of this because of further Scheduling Orders and

25     arrangements.  And if the Trial Chamber wants me to tell you, I can name

Page 13634

 1     the witnesses that will not be called by the Defence, or do you feel that

 2     it's sufficient that what I've already said so far, namely the witnesses

 3     who will appear is sufficient?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, just to be certain in our minds, I

 5     see your intension after the present witness to call Mr. Stalevic,

 6     Mr. Misic, Mr. Cankovic.  Beyond that, your expert.  Is there somebody

 7     else that you will be calling?

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  The videolink

 9     witness, Spasic, will be testifying.  And you've named all the others.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  And what you are advising is that beyond the

11     witnesses that I have read off from your notifications of witnesses for

12     the week of the 19th and the 26th, and the witness Spasic, you will not

13     be calling any other witness on the list, the 65 ter list?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let me be even more specific.  I

15     only meant the witnesses who were on the list.  We've also submitted a

16     request to the Trial Chamber to reconsider your decision regarding the

17     expert Pavic, so that witness will depend on the Trial Chamber's

18     decision.  And as for the other witnesses, we propose to tender via bar

19     table their statements.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not sure what you have in mind there, but

21     let's take this at one step at a time.  After the present witness,

22     Stalevic, Misic, Cankovic, Spasic, and your motion about Pavic is to be

23     determined.  Are they the witnesses whom you now intend to call?

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I believe I misspoke.  What I

25     meant was that I would submit evidence via bar table.  So we have

Page 13635

 1     Mr. Simovic who is testifying now, then we have Stalevic, Misic,

 2     Cankovic, Pasic.  Our expert witness, Mr. Milasinovic, and depending on

 3     the Trial Chamber's decision on our motion, we'll also have the expert

 4     witness Mr. Pavic.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  And there could be an expectation that

 6     apart from the expert Spasic, or sorry, the ill man Spasic and

 7     Milasinovic, all the others will be called this week or next week.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have another

 9     request, namely, yes, we plan all of these witnesses to be heard by the

10     end of the week, provided that the air traffic returns to normal.  As

11     things stand now, one of these witnesses is supposed to appear on

12     Thursday.  As for the other one, we don't know when he will show up, but

13     we hope that he can be brought in as well, but we would appreciate if we

14     could start their testimony, their questioning next week because we are

15     not sure how much time we will have to proof them.  But as -- from what

16     we what we know now, they cannot -- neither of them will be here before

17     Thursday.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  We are speaking there of Misic and Cankovic, very

19     well.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Cankovic.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  At the moment then, either this week

22     or next week, we will complete the evidence of those witnesses, leaving

23     just Spasic, Milasinovic, and the question mark of the motion concerning

24     Pavic.  Is that correct?  Clearly, it would be desirable to hear both

25     Spasic and Milasinovic in the one week.  It would be more efficient use

Page 13636

 1     of everybody's time and of this courtroom if that could be done.  So if

 2     you could concentrate your efforts on trying to get those two witnesses

 3     to be available to be dealt with in the one week.  It's not so critical

 4     at this point which of the two weeks you've mentioned that will be as

 5     long as they are both able to be heard in the one week, if that can be

 6     arranged.

 7             I would expect that in the course of this week you will have a

 8     decision concerning Mr. Pavic and you will be able to take steps

 9     accordingly depending on the outcome of that decision.

10             Is there any observation, Mr. Stamp, that you feel you need to

11     make at this time?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  I first would like to express my

13     gratitude to counsel for informing us of the anticipated schedule at this

14     stage.  It will assist us in making our own plans.

15             The first issue is the -- in respect to the witnesses Misic and

16     Cankovic.  Can I take it that the Court has accepted the request of the

17     Defence that they not start, none of them start this week?

18             JUDGE PARKER:  I have yet to consult the two other members of the

19     Court on this.  I was trying to get clear what it is we need to look at

20     before we consult.

21             MR. STAMP:  Very well.  That will have something to do with how

22     we relocate our sources between now and next week.  The other thing is a

23     matter that I was considering raising before, it's a housekeeping matter.

24     Since we now know that the case for the Defence will probably close on

25     the week beginning the 10th or the next week, I was wondering, and it's

Page 13637

 1     really a matter for the Court, if a Scheduling Order could issue in

 2     respect to our considerations of applications for rebuttal evidence,

 3     and --

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you have such applications?

 5             MR. STAMP:  We are considering it, and I could indicate to the

 6     Court that our anticipation is that there will be none, but we still have

 7     it open.  We are considering persons, but we have to make a final

 8     decision based on any schedule the Court makes.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  You will understand from the point of view of the

10     Chamber unless there's a motion, there's nothing for us to consider.

11             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, but I was wondering if an order as

12     to the latest when such a motion could be filed could be issued, because

13     we want to consider it on the basis of all the evidence we hear.  I just

14     could indicate now, we don't anticipate to file with respect to the three

15     or so witnesses we are thinking about.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Are these affected by the evidence of Spasic,

17     Milasinovic, or Pavic?

18             MR. STAMP:  They will probably be affected by the evidence of

19     Misic and Milasinovic.  I do not want to say too much, Your Honour,

20     because we have not made a --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying you cannot make a decision until

22     those witnesses have given their evidence, or are you able to make a

23     decision in light of your expectations about the evidence of Spasic and

24     Milasinovic?

25             MR. STAMP:  A decision could be made before these persons

Page 13638

 1     testify, but it would be more convenient to the Prosecution if we hear

 2     them before.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The point is one of expedition and delay.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I know, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Because if it is that you do move to hear rebuttal

 6     evidence and if your arguments were persuasive and you were to call it,

 7     clearly we would want to move on quickly to that evidence.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  If it's the position that there's no consideration

10     of that issue until after you file a motion after the evidence of Spasic

11     and Milasinovic is heard, we could well be into June before we come to

12     hear any rebuttal evidence, if that is the course which is to be taken.

13             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, that is a why I raise it because now I

14     understand it seems to me that the Court's position is that the earlier

15     any such motion is filed, the better.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

17             MR. STAMP:  Very well.  And one consideration, of course, is the

18     availability, if at all, we move the Court in this regard, the

19     availability of the witnesses.  We have only spoken to one person to put

20     that witness on standby.  But I could take it then, subject to the

21     Court's consideration, that we -- the earlier the better.

22             The next issue before the Court considers anything is re-opening

23     of the Prosecution's case to call one witness.  There was an issue in

24     respect to K-87 who had the serious medical problems.  We received a

25     medical report this week, I think it's yesterday or probably this

Page 13639

 1     morning, indicating that he is able to testify, but not to travel.

 2             I have not seen the report, I have not been able to consult with

 3     the doctors or the persons who are reviewing it, but it may well be that

 4     the Prosecution may want to move that the case be re-opened just to take

 5     in his evidence formal and give the Defence an opportunity to

 6     cross-examine him by videolink in the same week as their application.  I

 7     just inform the Court of that.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The evidence of Mr. -- at the same time as the

 9     evidence of Mr. Spasic; is that what you are saying?

10             MR. STAMP:  The same week, yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  They would both be from Belgrade?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  I understand that the medical

13     report is that he should not travel but he could testify.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  We, of course, have not seen any such medical

15     report at this stage.

16             MR. STAMP:  It will be filed as soon as possible this week.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber would indicate that first we thank

21     you, Mr. Djurdjic, for your raising of this matter at this stage, which

22     is a very convenient stage for planning purposes.

23             We accept that because of the difficulties at the moment of air

24     travel, that the evidence of Mr. Misic and Cankovic should be heard next

25     week, rather than this week, so we will hear the present witness and

Page 13640

 1     Mr. Stalevic this week, and then adjourn, assuming we finish before the

 2     end of the week, to resume on Monday of next week for the evidence of

 3     Mr. Misic and Cankovic.

 4             That will leave, then, the evidence of Mr. Pavic to be determined

 5     according to a decision, which I believe we can expect this week.

 6     Leaving Mr. Pavic aside, that will leave the witness Mr. Spasic and the

 7     witness Milasinovic, clearly if those two can be heard in the one week,

 8     one is by videolink and one is not, it would be much more practical for

 9     court use and for the attendance of counsel and convenience.

10             And we would leave it with you, Mr. Djurdjic, subject to a matter

11     I'll mention in a moment, to resolve whether that can be arranged for the

12     week commencing the 10th of May, or failing that, the week commencing the

13     17th of May.

14             The Prosecution has raised two matters.  First, whether there

15     should be leave to lead rebuttal evidence or whether there will be a

16     motion for leave.  And the second is whether there should be a recalling

17     of the witness K-87, who although called earlier was not in a state of

18     health to attend, and his evidence was received by way of statement.

19             In the Chamber's view, Mr. Stamp, it would be practical if by

20     Friday, I think it's the 30th of April, that is the end of next week --

21     that's the holiday.  By Thursday the 29th of April, you just lost a day,

22     Mr. Stamp, the -- any motion that the Prosecution may consider it should

23     bring, if any, with a view to re-opening your case, or with a view to

24     calling rebuttal evidence should be filed.  If that is done, we would

25     allow the Defence a week in which to respond, if it wishes to that.  That

Page 13641

 1     would take us to the end of the first week of May, and the Chamber will

 2     then be -- to the Thursday evening at the end of the first week of May.

 3     That will then enable the Chamber to consider whether any motion that is

 4     moved by the Prosecution should or should not be granted.

 5             We would draw attention to the fact that if a videolink is to be

 6     organised for Mr. Spasic, and if it is that K-87 is to be called by way

 7     of videolink, it clearly would be, again, in the practical interest of

 8     everybody if those could be arranged either on the same day or on

 9     successive days from Belgrade.  And the Chamber would certainly try to

10     facilitate that.  But that will require some liaison between Prosecution

11     and Defence, as well as some speedy attention to these motions, if it is

12     to be the case that K-87 is to be recalled and if he is to give evidence

13     at about the same time as Mr. Spasic by videolink from Belgrade.

14             Having, therefore, posed this possible outcome of what we've been

15     talking about today, can we leave it initially with counsel for the

16     Prosecution and the Defence to discuss whether there is a date that would

17     be convenient to both for the purposes of videolink from Belgrade, if it

18     is that K-87 is to be called by way of videolink.

19             Now, we don't know he whether there will be a motion for him to

20     be called either by Prosecution or given the terms of our decision about

21     him, it could be a motion by the Defence.  But if there is to be a motion

22     for him to be recalled to actually give oral evidence and if that is to

23     be by videolink, it's clearly an opportunity not to be missed for him to

24     give evidence at the same time, give or take a day, as Mr. Spasic.

25     Discussion with the Chamber's Legal Officer is urged at any time if in

Page 13642

 1     the course of the discussions between counsel it appears that we are

 2     headed toward calling both Mr. Spasic and K-87 by videolink so that we

 3     can make appropriate orders and get administrative arrangements into

 4     place.  And if that should happen, that will be either the week of the

 5     10th of May, or the week of the 17th of May, depending on the

 6     arrangements that Mr. Djurdjic will initially be making concerning the

 7     witness Spasic and the witness who will give evidence here, Milasinovic.

 8             Have we left enough guidance to counsel for these matters to be

 9     pursued in an orderly fashion?  We hope so.  We don't want to be too

10     prescriptive.  Counsel in this case have been very good at discussing

11     issues and reaching practical outcome, we think it convenient to leave

12     this matter on that basis for the moment.  Thank you for that.  We,

13     therefore, can look forward to close of Defence evidence either by the

14     end of the week of the 10th or the end of the week of the 17th of May.

15     And it may be that there could be some Prosecution evidence to follow,

16     but the Chamber would hope that if that is to be the case, that that can

17     be immediately following the evidence of the witnesses we have mentioned

18     so that we can be well clear of all evidence by the end of May.

19             We thank counsel for that useful discussion, and if there's

20     nothing else we should have the witness in.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Mr. Simovic.  Our apologies for

23     keeping you waiting.  We had matters that had to be dealt with, but we

24     are now back in normal session for the continuation of your evidence.  If

25     you could please sit down.

Page 13643

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon and thank you.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  I remind you the affirmation you made to tell the

 3     truth continues to apply today.

 4             Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           WITNESS:  ZORAN SIMOVIC (Resumed)

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:  [Continued]

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Simovic.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   If we could proceed where we left off yesterday and return to the

11     document 65 ter 6118, and while it's brought up, I'd like to just read to

12     you what you said yesterday.  And this is at page 13619, lines 4 to 9:

13             "These reservists" -- this is a question.  "The reservists at the

14     time when you escorted them to Podujevo they were under your command,

15     were they not?"

16             Your answer is:  "Not yet.  I had only taken them over."

17             "Q. So when you say you took them over, can I take it that it

18     means that you were responsible for giving them orders?"

19             And you said:  "No."

20             MR. STAMP:  So if we could go back to this document and the same

21     place we were yesterday, it's at the bottom of the page in English, about

22     line 12 on the page in B/C/S.

23        Q.   And in the penultimate sentence of that page in English, the

24     Judge recorded you as saying, and this in Prokuplje:

25             "This is why I immediately called the commander of the Skorpions,

Page 13644

 1     Slobodan Medic and ordered him to gather his unit and return to Prolom

 2     Banja."

 3             The first question is:  Did you say that to the magistrate or to

 4     the investigating -- to the trial judges, actually, at the Prokuplje

 5     district court?

 6        A.   I said what I said yesterday.

 7        Q.   No, no, just for the record let's start.  The part I read you

 8     from the court record, and I'll reread it again, and the question is:

 9     "Did you say this?"

10             "I immediately called the commander of the Skorpions, Slobodan

11     Medic, and ordered him to gather his unit and return to Prolom Banja."

12             Did you say that?

13        A.   I didn't say that the commander was Medic.

14        Q.   Did you say that you ordered him, Slobodan Medic, to gather his

15     unit and return to Prolom Banja?

16        A.   You are insisting on the fact that this is Medic's units.  I said

17     it was the reserve composition of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia and

18     that the commander Trajkovic had just told me that the contact was Medic.

19     That is to say that that was the man he talked to and in a way told him

20     that he would be in charge of them.  He wasn't their commander.  They

21     were still under the command of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia because

22     they were reserve force of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, and that's

23     why I've been saying this all the time non-stop.

24        Q.   Did you tell the Judges in Prokuplje that you ordered Medic to

25     gather his unit and return to Prolom Banja?  That is the question.

Page 13645

 1     Simply, did you tell the Judges that?

 2        A.   I ordered Medic, not Commander Medic.  You are insisting on

 3     saying Commander Medic.  I ordered Medic, but not Commander Medic.

 4        Q.   Very well.  You still seem not to understand the question.  I

 5     just want to get your answer as to whether or not the judges made a

 6     proper and accurate record.  So before I come to the truth of your

 7     comments, can you just tell us if this record is accurate?  Did you say:

 8             "I immediately called the commander of the Skorpions, Slobodan

 9     Medic, and ordered him to gather his unit and return to Prolom Banja?"

10        A.   I say again, I said I ordered Medic.  Not Commander Medic.

11        Q.   Very well.  Who was the commander of this group of men that you

12     took over in Prolom Banja?

13        A.   They were the reserve force of the MUP, and nobody had taken them

14     over yet, so I'm stating once again that it was only Commander Trajkovic

15     who orally talked to Medic and told him to be in charge of them until

16     they were taken over by someone else.

17        Q.   Mr. Simovic, I just read the record to you.  You said yesterday:

18     "I had only taken them over."  This is at 13619 at line 6.  Didn't you

19     testify yesterday actually on more than one occasion that you went to

20     Prolom Banja and took them over?

21        A.   You don't understand.  I went to fetch them, but I didn't take

22     them over as a unit.  I could have taken them over as a unit only at the

23     point in time when they were attached to my own unit and when I report to

24     the staff that they had been joined to the unit.  They had not been

25     attached to the unit.  I brought them in as the reserve force and

Page 13646

 1     returned them as members of the reserve force, and please allow me to

 2     finish my sentence.  Don't interrupt me, please.

 3        Q.   You are not answering my question, and, Mr. Simovic, you are not

 4     here just to speak whatever you want to say.  Just answer the questions.

 5             You told us yesterday on more than one occasion, and I read the

 6     record again, you are asked:  "These reservists at the time when you

 7     escorted them to Podujevo they were under your command, were they not?"

 8     And you said:  "Not yet.  I had only taken them over."  Is that evidence

 9     which you gave yesterday not correct?  Is it not true?

10        A.   I said that they weren't under my command, and that is my final

11     answer.  They were not under my command.  They were the reserve force of

12     the MUP, and I'm trying to explain this to you.  If they were to come

13     under the -- I'm trying to explain when they came under the SAJ command.

14             MR. STAMP:  Mr. Djurdjic is on his feet.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I am aware of that, but I'm also aware that you

16     are in a point of some significance on this issue, and I was waiting

17     until you had asked your question and got your answer before turning to

18     Mr. Djurdjic.  Is there more you are going to ask about this?  It's

19     not -- very well, Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Two points.  Why I'm on my feet is

21     the primary point.  I think the witness is trying to answer and respond

22     but that --

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, sorry, I don't want you to start

24     interpreting his evidence.  If there's a point of difficulty about

25     translation --

Page 13647

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, I won't.  That's all I wanted

 2     to say.  I think that he answered the question, but I think the Trial

 3     Chamber and I understand each other.

 4             Now, with respect to the interpretation and translation in the

 5     text read out by Mr. Stamp, it says, the word is "nalozia," that is to

 6     say, instructed.  Is there this nuance between instruction and order?

 7     "nalozia" is to instruct, "narediti" is to order; whereas, we keep

 8     getting a different interpretation.  So that's the distinct I wish to

 9     make and to state.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   There's evidence before the Court -- or let me just put this in

13     the form of a question.  Did you know whether or not these so-called

14     reservists that you picked up at Prolom Banja or took over at Prolom

15     Banja had a commander amongst them?

16        A.   They could not have a commander because they were the reserve

17     force of the MUP.  Reservists cannot ...

18        Q.   Your answer is you don't know.

19        A.   No, my answer is that they don't have one and cannot have one

20     because they are the reserve force of the MUP.  A reserve MUP force

21     cannot have a commander because in the reserve force you can never take a

22     unit, just an individual as a physical entity.  Do you understand me?

23     Whereas you keep insisting on me telling you what you want to hear, that

24     it's a unit.  It's not a unit, and they haven't got a commander, and they

25     are the reserve force of the MUP.

Page 13648

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is a great deal of

 2     background noise and it's very difficult to hear.  Thank you.

 3             MR. STAMP:

 4        Q.   Mr. Simovic, I keep insisting because I have here a record from a

 5     district court in a murder trial of your evidence, and I keep asking you

 6     whether you said something and you keep refusing to answer, that's all.

 7     So I'll ask it one last time.  Did you tell the Court that you call the

 8     commander of the Skorpions Slobodan Medic?  Either you told them or you

 9     didn't tell them that.

10        A.   It's not that I called them.  I just told Mr. Medic and from

11     Commander Trajkovic he was in charge of them --

12        Q.   Mr. Simovic, you refuse to answer my question.  I'll move on.

13        A.   I'm not refusing to answer.  You are not accepting the answer I'm

14     giving you.

15        Q.   Was it not your duty, Mr. Simovic, to gather the evidence in

16     respect to the massacre, to the murders that had been committed at

17     Podujevo that day?

18        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I said yesterday that in my unit I did not have

19     any experts who would conduct an investigation --

20        Q.   Mr. Simovic --

21        A.   I informed the OUP of Podujevo who -- which was in charge of

22     that.  That is to take steps.

23        Q.   Can I take it then that your answer is that you -- your view is

24     that you had no responsibility to gather any evidence?  Is that your

25     answer?

Page 13649

 1        A.   My answer is this:  I undertook everything in order to ensure

 2     that proceedings be undertaken to arrive at the perpetrators of the

 3     crime.  First of all, on site I asked people if anybody had seen anybody

 4     shooting.  The answer I received was no.  I could not just at random

 5     select somebody who did the shooting, so I informed the organ in charge

 6     of that to conduct an investigation, an on-site investigation, to uncover

 7     the perpetrators of the crime, and those perpetrators were indeed

 8     uncovered and brought to justice in due course.

 9        Q.   And this is the last time I'm going to ask you the same question

10     again.  Did you consider that you had a responsibility on the spot to

11     gather evidence in respect to this crime?

12        A.   Everything that was in my power I undertook.  That is to say, I

13     undertook what I could immediately, which was to report the case to the

14     competent authorities so that they could initiate further steps.

15        Q.   Were you the most senior MUP personnel on the scene at the time

16     when you arrived there?

17        A.   I was not an official of MUP.  At the time, I was the commander

18     of my own unit of the SAJ, and as on the spot, there was the reserve

19     force and my unit.  As far as my unit is concerned, I had the highest

20     rank.  But there were others, other members of the regular police, the

21     army, in the vicinity.  So I don't know whether there was anybody of

22     higher rank there or not.  As far as my SAJ unit, I was the commander

23     and, therefore, highest in rank at that given point in time, only in the

24     SAJ.  I can't speak for other units because I don't know.

25        Q.   Okay.  I put the question this way:  As far as you knew and at

Page 13650

 1     the time you arrived at the scene of this murder, mass murder, you were

 2     the most senior policeman there; is that correct?

 3        A.   Of my members, yes, but only my members.  Now, I don't know

 4     whether 50 metres away there might have been a colonel of the regular

 5     police, for example.  But for my unit, I had the highest rank, as far as

 6     my unit was concerned.

 7        Q.   You are saying it's possible a colonel of the police might have

 8     been on the scene of that murder and you didn't know?

 9        A.   I say on the scene, on the scene of the crime.  50 or 100 metres

10     away is not on site.  I'm talking about on site and among my unit members

11     I was -- had the highest rank.

12        Q.   If we look on this record we see a statement I read to you

13     yesterday, and I'd just like to get your answer for the record, so please

14     listen to the question and give me a direct answer so I could move on.

15     The record of the court is that you said:

16             "I did not enter the area where the civilians were killed because

17     professional medical care was being provided there."

18             The question is, did you tell the Court that?

19        A.   At this point in time I cannot remember whether I said that to

20     the Court or not.  If that's what it says there, then most probably

21     that's what I said.

22        Q.   Do you know whether any medical attention was provided to anybody

23     inside the courtyard where these persons were shot?

24        A.   I don't understand what you mean by medical attention.  That

25     could be taking someone's temperature.  If you are asking about first aid

Page 13651

 1     to those who were injured, the first aid was provided, and when I arrived

 2     on site, I saw Dr. Dragan administering professional medical assistance

 3     to the injured persons, but I cannot say with certainty whether this was

 4     happening in the courtyard or on the side of the road, and that is what I

 5     said yesterday, and that's how it was.

 6        Q.   So I get back to the question ...

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do not wish to waste anyone's

 9     time, but I believe we are still here at the same problem where we left

10     off yesterday.  I've been trying to read the portion of the court

11     records, and I can't see where any reference is made to the courtyard.  I

12     don't see that the witness said that he mentioned the courtyard anywhere

13     because we keep getting this term "courtyard" in our translation.  So I

14     would appreciate if Mr. Stamp could tell us what line is it where this

15     word "courtyard" is mentioned in his statement.

16             MR. STAMP:  The last two questions I asked in reference to the

17     courtyard was not about the statement.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp quoted his statement and

19     mentioned the courtyard, and he was trying to point out the

20     contradictions in his statement when compared to the court records of

21     those proceedings, so could Mr. Stamp please tell us exactly what it is

22     that he is quoting when he is putting a question to the witness, and that

23     should help both me and the Trial Chamber to know exactly which portion

24     he is referring to and then I wouldn't have to stand up -- be up on my

25     feet all the time to interfere.

Page 13652

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  That matter was dealt with often yesterday in the

 2     transcript both in questions from Mr. Stamp and in quoting from the

 3     transcript of the Serbian court proceedings.  And "courtyard" was

 4     mentioned in the course of that several times, Mr. Djurdjic.  So you

 5     might care to either look again at the transcript or at yesterday's

 6     record and you will find the answers to your questions.

 7             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Just to make it clear, Mr. Simovic, now I'm moving off this

10     document temporarily and asking you now a more general question.  And

11     it's simply this:  Do you know whether any type of medical assistance,

12     whether first aid, triage, or whatever, any type of medical assistance

13     was provided to anybody in the courtyard?

14        A.   All the injured were provided medical assistance.  First aid.

15     When I arrived there, I cannot say with certainty whether what I saw was

16     happening in the courtyard or on the side of the road, but I am saying

17     that everyone who needed professional medical assistance was provided

18     assistance and then transported to Pristina where they were further

19     treated and the best professional care was provided.

20        Q.   Mr. Simovic, I suggest to you that you participated in a coverup

21     of this gross crime?

22        A.   I can state with full responsibility before this Trial Chamber

23     that I did not take part in covering up any crime because the minute I

24     found out about this incident, I informed the competent authorities in

25     Podujevo and the staff, and the competent organs then took all the

Page 13653

 1     investigative measures required.  So I claim with full responsibility

 2     that I did not even try, let alone cover up any crime.

 3        Q.   You say the competent authorities took all the necessary

 4     measures.  On what basis do you say or did you become aware that the

 5     competent authorities took all the necessary measures?

 6        A.   I say that because I informed the Podujevo OUP which had the

 7     territorial jurisdiction for that area, and then I informed the

 8     Podujevo -- the Podujevo staff informed the investigating judge, which

 9     was within their competence, who then undertook investigative measures as

10     provided for their service.

11        Q.   Did you check at any time to see that the measures taken by the

12     Podujevo OUP or by the investigating judge at that time when the massacre

13     was committed were, in fact, adequate?  And I ask that question because

14     you say that the competent authorities took all measures.  Did you check

15     to ensure that they did?

16        A.   They had to do it ex officio.

17        Q.   Can I take it that although you haven't answered the question I

18     asked, your answer really is that you did not, but you assume that they

19     did ex officio?

20        A.   No, they were duty-bound to do that ex officio.  They were

21     duty-bound.

22        Q.   Well, can you just answer my question.  Did you, as a senior, I

23     put it the senior police officer coming on the scene of that massacre,

24     did you check to ensure that they took all the necessary measures?  Can

25     you answer that question directly, please.

Page 13654

 1        A.   The measures had to be taken ex officio, but I already said

 2     yesterday before this Court that after informing the Podujevo OUP and the

 3     staff and the chief of department, I set off for Belgrade, so at the time

 4     when I was leaving the territory of Podujevo, that was the time when the

 5     investigative measures would have been undertaken.

 6        Q.   But I think you agreed with me that when you left Podujevo, no

 7     investigating judge and no prosecutor arrived.

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   You told us yesterday, I think, that you did not know

10     approximately how many were killed on the day in question, and I think

11     you said it's because you did not look into the courtyard to count.  Is

12     that your evidence?

13        A.   I did not know on that same day how many victims there were in

14     Podujevo.

15        Q.   That day did you tell anybody that there were more than a dozen

16     killed?  A dozen civilians killed, more than a dozen civilians killed?

17        A.   I reported to the Podujevo OUP of the incident.  I informed the

18     staff and the chief of the department.

19        Q.   Focus on the question I asked, please.  Did you tell anybody that

20     day that more than a dozen civilians were killed?

21        A.   Well, the chief of the Podujevo OUP was there so he would have to

22     take all the measures.  In other words, if I informed the Podujevo OUP,

23     that means that I did inform someone, but I can't recall exactly by name

24     who it was, but when you report an incident, you report it to the

25     competent authorities who then have to take all the necessary measures.

Page 13655

 1        Q.   I ask you a third time but more precisely this time, and please

 2     answer the question.  Did you report to Mr. Djordjevic that more than a

 3     dozen civilians had been killed?

 4        A.   When I informed the Podujevo OUP and the staff on the measures

 5     that I was taking to return --

 6        Q.   Mr. Simovic --

 7        A.   -- the reserve force, I called the chief -- please, I am trying

 8     to answer your question.  So when I informed why I was returning these

 9     men, I also told them why it was that I wanted them sent back because the

10     MUP reservists had fired at civilians and that was the reason why I

11     wanted to send them back.

12        Q.   Mr. Simovic, did you on that day report to Mr. Djordjevic that

13     more than a dozen people had been killed by -- or simply, just did you

14     report to Mr. Djordjevic that more than a dozen people had been killed?

15        A.   I informed Mr. Djordjevic of the reasons why I was sending these

16     men back, in other words, that they had fired at civilians.  But I don't

17     recall that I mentioned the number of victims or even -- or even a random

18     number of victims.

19        Q.   Well, on the day of this incident at the time when you made your

20     report to Mr. Djordjevic, were you aware that more than a dozen civilians

21     had been killed?

22        A.   I was aware that civilians had been killed, but I was not aware

23     of the number.

24        Q.   In any case, Mr. Djordjevic told us that you told him that.  Do

25     you have any reason to doubt that evidence?  That you, in fact, told him

Page 13656

 1     that more than a dozen had been killed?  This is 9703.20 of the record.

 2             The question is, do you have any reason to doubt Mr. Djordjevic's

 3     evidence that you told him that more than a dozen had been killed?

 4        A.   Well, I can say and stand by only the statement that I provide

 5     myself.  I stand by what I've already said that I did inform them of the

 6     incident, but I don't know that I mentioned the number of fatalities.

 7        Q.   I'm going to just ask you to explain something to the Court, how

 8     it is that you were aware that this massacre had occurred?  You had

 9     policemen under your command on the scene helping, as you say, and you

10     did not find out how many people were killed that day.  You went to the

11     scene, your policemen were there.  You said that you for whatever reason

12     you did not look into the courtyard to count, but your men were there.

13     How is it that you did not find out how many people were killed by the

14     Skorpions?

15        A.   I did not find out on the site how many fatalities there were,

16     the fatalities in the aftermath of what the reservists of the Serbian MUP

17     committed because I did not have any experts in my unit who could conduct

18     an on-site investigation, and they could only do more harm than good.

19     That is why we could not establish who had committed it, but we informed

20     the OUP so that they could take professional measures, collect the

21     evidence, and uncover the perpetrators of the crime and bring them to

22     justice.

23        Q.   You are not really answering the question.  I'll ask it one more

24     time.  If you don't answer, I'll move on, but please try to answer.  Your

25     men were on the scene, and I remind you the doctor, the physician for the

Page 13657

 1     SAJ was on the scene.  You were on the scene, the senior policeman, at

 2     least amongst your men.  How is it that you did not know how many people

 3     were killed that day?

 4        A.   I have already answered your question a minute ago.  In other

 5     words, I did not have professional officers in my unit who could conduct

 6     an investigation.  I said that whatever they might have done could have

 7     been more harmful than beneficial.  They would have had to be

 8     professional people who would take the evidence, collect the evidence

 9     there, and conduct an on-site investigation.

10        Q.   Let's move on.

11             MR. STAMP:  If you could bring back 06118.  And this is a record

12     of your evidence at the first trial in Prokuplje.  We could go to the

13     same place where we were in B/C/S, and on the bottom in English.  And we

14     could remain on this page in English, but I'll read the last sentence

15     that's down at the bottom and move on to the next page in English.  The

16     record says that you stated:

17             "On the same day, practically immediately after this, I had to go

18     to Belgrade for the funeral of Aleksic Radovan, a member of my unit who

19     had been killed, so I did not conduct any further investigation at the

20     scene.  Anyway, the case was officially taken over by the local police,

21     and they were to establish who had committed these murders.  Precisely on

22     the day when this incident happened, as I have already mentioned, I had

23     to go to the funeral of one of the members of my unit, but he was not

24     just an ordinary member of my unit.  He was a man to whom I owed so

25     much ..."

Page 13658

 1             And later on, and this is on the same page in B/C/S you said:

 2             "For the third or fourth time now, the Court insists that I give

 3     my final opinion about who or whose member fired at the civilians.  I

 4     must repeat again what really happened, which is that on that day I was

 5     in a particularly difficult psychological state."

 6             Do you recall saying all of what I just read, or?

 7        A.   Yes, I've been reading it for myself as well, and --

 8        Q.   Did you say that?

 9        A.   Beg your pardon?

10        Q.   Did you say what is in the record?

11        A.   Well, let me just read it through.  Yes, I did say that.

12        Q.   So you see here from this record that the Court was insisting, as

13     I insist in asking the question, that as a senior man, senior policeman

14     present, you should have had more to offer to tell them about this

15     massacre of women and children.  You were there on the shortly after it

16     happened.  And the explanation you gave the Court for leaving was to

17     attend the funeral of your friend.  Was that evidence, Mr. Simovic,

18     untrue?  Your friend was not buried on the 28th.  There was no funeral on

19     the 28th.

20        A.   Well, I'll say it again.  Before I left Prokuplje -- Podujevo

21     rather, I did everything that I could.  In other words, I informed the

22     competent authorities, I informed the staff, and the chief of department

23     and only then I set off for Belgrade.  Now, you were asking me whether I

24     had to go to Belgrade.  I had to go to Belgrade.  I had to go there and

25     stand next to the body of one my members, and now you are actually

Page 13659

 1     insulting me here by sort of feeling that I shouldn't have been present

 2     at this funeral of one of my members.

 3        Q.   I'm not insulting you.  I take the same attitude as the Court,

 4     that you need to explain what you were doing as a senior policeman

 5     present at the scene of a massacre committed by so-called reserve

 6     policemen.  And my attitude is no different from the attitude of the

 7     Court in Prokuplje.

 8             The question is this, I repeat:  There was no funeral of your

 9     friend on that day; isn't that correct?  He was not buried on the 28th?

10        A.   On that day the remains -- his remains were supposed to arrive in

11     Belgrade.  Now, when you have the remains, they lie in state, and we

12     provide the honour guard and I was supposed to be one of the members of

13     that honour guard.  Now, I repeat it again, I had to be in Belgrade on

14     the 28th because one of my members had died.  Even when your pet dies,

15     the whole household is in sorrow let alone when one of your members, one

16     of the members of your unit dies.

17        Q.   What you told the Court here on more than one occasion that you

18     left the scene to attend your friend's funeral is not true.  And that's a

19     simple question.  There was no funeral on the 28th?

20        A.   After taking all the measures that I could, in other words, when

21     I took all the measures that were within my powers, I left Podujevo and

22     went to Belgrade.  I could not exert any kind of influence over the

23     pathologist as to when they would conduct their forensic investigation

24     and when the late Aleksic would be transferred to Belgrade, but we all

25     thought that this would be on the 28th so I had to be there.  And even if

Page 13660

 1     his remains had not been already brought to Belgrade, we had to see and

 2     visit their family, his wife, his children.  We had to inform his parents

 3     that they no longer had a son.

 4        Q.   Mr. Simovic, I think you testified before that Mr. Trajkovic had

 5     gone to Belgrade to do that, to make those arrangements.  Is that so?

 6     Mr. Trajkovic made arrangements in respect to Mr. Aleksic?

 7        A.   Mr. Trajkovic left on the 27th to make those arrangements, that's

 8     true.

 9        Q.   Very well, that's all.

10        A.   But you had to provide, to find a grave and of course Trajkovic

11     could not on my behalf express his condolences to his wife, his children,

12     his mother and his sister.

13        Q.   Anyway --

14        A.   And he could not be with them at their most difficult hours.

15        Q.   Yes, let's get back to the point though, and my point is that

16     what you told the Court in order to explain why you did no

17     investigations, that you left to go to a funeral of your dear friend is

18     not true.  So I'll just ask the question this way:  What was the date of

19     the funeral?

20        A.   As I said yesterday, I do not recall exactly whether it was on

21     the 29th or the 30th.  In other words, I cannot recall the exact date,

22     whether it was on the 29th or the 30th.

23        Q.   And when you told the Court in Prokuplje that you didn't do an

24     investigation because you were leaving to go to a funeral on the 28th,

25     you'll agree with me that that was not true?

Page 13661

 1        A.   Sir, I'm not an investigating judge.  I am a police officer.  I

 2     informed the authorities to take all the measures in that respect.

 3        Q.   I think we have to move on.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time?

 5             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours, it is.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn now and resume at ten past 4.00.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we move on to another

15     document.  This is 06119.

16        Q.   Mr. Simovic, you recall that you were interviewed in respect to

17     the events of the 28th of March, 1999, on the 15th of February, 2002 by a

18     Working Group of the MUP?

19             MR. STAMP:  If we could go to the last page of this document.

20        Q.   Do you recall that, Mr. Simovic?

21        A.   I can't remember the date when the Working Group interviewed me,

22     but at the time I did give an interview for three hours.  Where it says

23     here just five minutes of it.

24        Q.   Well, we are at the last page.  Did you sign this record of this

25     interview?

Page 13662

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can I take it that you read the record before you signed it?

 3        A.   I can't remember now.

 4        Q.   Well, as a senior police officer, are you in the habit of signing

 5     statements in murder investigations without reading them?

 6        A.   You don't know the circumstances under which this statement was

 7     taken, that's why you say that.  It was a Working Group, I don't know how

 8     many of them.  I can't remember whether I read this document before I

 9     signed it, but I did sign it.

10        Q.   Well, it's only two pages long in Serbian.  Is it possible that

11     you might have signed this without reading it?

12        A.   This interview lasted for three hours, roughly three hours.  And

13     the Working Group dictated, typed so, no, I really don't know whether I

14     actually read it, but as I say, I did sign it.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             MR. STAMP:  If we could go back to the first page.

17        Q.   This interview was conducted at your office, wasn't it?

18        A.   I can't see where it was conducted.

19        Q.   Do you remember maybe?

20        A.   It says here in the official premises of the gendarmerie command,

21     but it wasn't in my office.

22        Q.   That was at that time in 2002 February, the 15th of February,

23     2002, where your office was located; isn't it?

24        A.   Under that roof, yes.

25             MR. STAMP:  If we could go to the third paragraph of the

Page 13663

 1     statement on the first page in the B/C/S and on the second page in the

 2     translation.  You have to scroll down in B/C/S.

 3        Q.   You are recorded here as having said that while you were in a

 4     meeting, while the meeting was in progress, "I heard two bursts of

 5     automatic fire and rushed outside to see what was going on.  About 500

 6     metres from the Podujevo OUP, I came across members of the SAJ.  Among

 7     them was Spasoje Vulevic, also known as Vuk, commander of the SAJ platoon

 8     Belgrade, who was holding one member of the Skorpion unit and shouting

 9     'what have you done, fool?'" Did you say this in your statement?

10        A.   I don't remember saying this, but I say with full responsibility

11     that the member Vulevic, Spasoje saw who did the shooting to arrest him.

12        Q.   When did you become aware that Spasoje saw who did the shooting?

13        A.   When I arrived on the spot and when I encountered a group of my

14     members giving assistance to the wounded, and while Dr. Dragan was doing

15     that, Vulevic, my commanding officer of the 3rd Platoon said, Boss,

16     members of the third composition were shooting at the civilians, the ones

17     that were supposed to be in the buses.

18        Q.   Did you see him holding on to one of them saying, according to

19     this statement, "what have you done, fool?"

20        A.   No, I didn't see him.

21        Q.   Well, you are saying now contrary to, I believe, what you were

22     saying yesterday, that Spasoje saw who did the shooting to arrest them,

23     and you said that with full responsibility today.  Did you cause Spasoje

24     to give a statement that day?

25        A.   On the spot Vulevic, and I repeat this once again, and not only

Page 13664

 1     Vulevic, but any of my members of the regular SAJ, the active members of

 2     the SAJ unit, had they seen anybody shooting, they would have arrested

 3     them.  That's what I said yesterday and that's what I am repeating today.

 4        Q.   Okay.  What I have here on the record at line 16 of page 31 is:

 5             "I say with full responsibility that the member Vulevic, Spasoje

 6     saw who did the shooting to arrest him."

 7             Is that what you said or what you meant to say?

 8        A.   That Vulevic or had Vulevic saw -- had Vulevic saw somebody

 9     shooting, he would certainly have arrested him.  Had he seen that.  So

10     any active member of the SAJ and authorised person belonging to the SAJ,

11     had they seen somebody using fire-arms and shooting at civilians, they

12     would have certainly arrested that person.

13        Q.   Did you ascertain from Vulevic how it is he became aware that it

14     was a Skorpions or members of the people who were on the bus who had done

15     the shooting?

16        A.   On the spot, on that site, there were only the members of the

17     reserve force there and somebody said that they had been shooting, but

18     nobody actually saw who had done the shooting.  Had somebody seen the

19     shooting, then the person doing the shooting would have been arrested

20     straightaway.

21        Q.   Mr. Simovic, you said just now Vulevic, and this is at page 31,

22     line 21, Vulevic, my commanding officer of the third platoon, said:

23     "Boss, members of the third composition were shooting at the civilians,

24     the ones that were supposed to be in the buses."  Did you ascertain from

25     Mr. Vulevic how he became aware of who was shooting at the civilians?

Page 13665

 1        A.   Let me just say Vulevic wasn't the commander of the 3rd Platoon.

 2     Vulevic was a komandir of the 3rd Platoon and --

 3        Q.   I'm just reading to you what you said earlier.  Maybe it's just

 4     that you were not answering the questions, why the record of your

 5     testimony is this.  You said that Vulevic said that members -- that

 6     certain members were shooting the civilians.  Did you find out from him

 7     why, on what basis he determined who was shooting the civilians?

 8        A.   I just said, and I was following on from what you said, I said

 9     that Vulevic wasn't the commander of the 3rd Platoon but the komandir of

10     the 3rd Platoon and that had -- he told me that members of the reserve

11     force had shot but he didn't know who.  If he had known who had been

12     doing the shooting, he would have taken measures right away.  That's what

13     I said yesterday, that's what I said just a moment ago, and that's what

14     I'm saying again now.

15        Q.   Did you -- let's move on.  Did you cause Mr. Vulevic to give a

16     statement about what he witnessed?

17        A.   I say with full responsibility no.  It was in my interest as the

18     senior officer that this should be established on the spot.

19        Q.   Do you know if Vulevic gave a statement in respect to these

20     murders that day?

21        A.   Yes, Vulevic did give several statements about this event.

22        Q.   That day, that day.  Do you know of him giving a statement that

23     day?

24        A.   On that day he didn't make a statement of any kind.

25        Q.   Now, if --

Page 13666

 1        A.   Your Honours, just a moment, please.  Can I say this:  On that

 2     day while I was present, on the territory of Podujevo, he did not give

 3     any statement.  So while I was there on the Podujevo territory, he didn't

 4     give a statement.  That's all I'm saying.

 5             MR. STAMP:  If we could go to page 3 of the English, and I think

 6     we have to go to the top of page 2 in the Serbian version.  I think this

 7     is, if my Cyrillic does not abandon me, this is the first paragraph on

 8     that page.  And on to the first paragraph of the English, if we could

 9     scroll up.

10        Q.   You said:  "Members of the SAJ prevented members of the Skorpioni

11     reserve unit, whose immediate commander, Boca, was at a meeting in the

12     building of the Podujevo OUP at the time, from using fire-arms again."

13     Did you say this?

14        A.   No, I did not say that, because if they had prevented the further

15     use of fire-arms, they would have seen who was doing the shooting.

16        Q.   Indeed.  So you signed to this, but you you didn't say it?

17        A.   The Working Group didn't sign it either.  None of them signed.

18        Q.   You also refer to Boca as immediate commander.  Did you tell them

19     this, that's immediate commander of the Skorpions?

20        A.   I really can't remember now what I said at the time, and tell me

21     what paragraph that's in so that I can read it for myself.

22        Q.   I think it's the last paragraph on the page in front of you.

23        A.   No, it says members of the SAJ prevented the further use of.

24        Q.   Yes, and it refers to Boca or Boca as immediate commander of the

25     Skorpion unit.  Did you say that?

Page 13667

 1        A.   I still maintain that Boca was not an officer of the Skorpions.

 2        Q.   So is your evidence that you didn't say this, that this record is

 3     not correct?

 4        A.   I really don't know from the context of my three-hour long

 5     interview who compiled all this.  If I knew who wrote this and signed

 6     it -- well, I did sign it, that is my signature, but I really don't

 7     remember whether I actually said what it says here.  I know that

 8     Mr. Medic was never the commander of the Skorpions on the territory of

 9     Serbia.  He could only have been a member of the reserve force of the MUP

10     of Serbia.  I don't know if he was a commander anywhere for that matter.

11             Mr. Trajkovic, before I set out to Prolom Banja to fetch them, he

12     told me to report to Boca, but nothing more than that.  Whether Trajkovic

13     knew, I can't say.  I don't know myself.

14        Q.   Mr. Simovic, you are not answering the questions.  I just wanted

15     to know if this record is correct, if you said this or if you didn't say

16     that.  And I understand your answer is that you didn't say that.

17             MR. STAMP:  If we go to the next page in Serbian, I think we want

18     the second paragraph.

19        Q.   "According to my information, the incident took place when

20     somebody from the police provoked members of the Skorpioni reserve unit

21     and because of the provocation they caused the incident in question."

22             Did you say that?

23        A.   I really can't remember whether I said that then or not.

24        Q.   Well, do you recall now whether or not you learned on that day or

25     received information about the circumstances in which these women and

Page 13668

 1     children were murdered?

 2        A.   What day?  Could you just give me a date, please.  You mean the

 3     28th?

 4        Q.   The 28th.  While you were on the scene.

 5        A.   I have said several times here that when I arrived on the scene,

 6     my 3rd Platoon commander Vulevic told me that the members who came by bus

 7     and were supposed to be in the bus shot at the civilians, but under what

 8     circumstances, I don't know.

 9        Q.   And the next paragraph, and the third paragraph, that is just

10     composed of one sentence, can you just read that aloud so we can get a

11     translation of that directly?

12        A.   Who, which?

13        Q.   The third paragraph on that page.

14        A.   You mean "according to my knowledge"?

15        Q.   The one after that.

16        A.   "According to my information, the commander of the SAJ Zivko

17     Trajkovic."  That one, that paragraph?

18        Q.   No.  The one before that.

19        A.   "After the incident," is that the paragraph you are referring to?

20        Q.   Yes, that's the one.

21        A.   "Until this event," that's how it starts.  "According to my

22     information," is that what it says, it's rather illegible.  I'm not sure

23     what you are referring to.

24        Q.   Mr. Simovic, the third paragraph on that page.  And it is one

25     sentence.

Page 13669

 1        A.   Yes.  You mean the fourth.

 2        Q.   No, the third.

 3        A.   "According to my information, the commander of the SAJ, Zivko

 4     Trajkovic, on the specified day at around 1400 hours was wounded and

 5     transferred to the hospital."

 6        Q.   The paragraph immediately before that one.

 7        A.   "Up until this event," is that the one you mean, that paragraph?

 8        Q.   The paragraph immediately before the one you started to read.

 9        A.   Very well.  "According to my information, this event came about

10     because one of the policeman provoked members of the reserve unit of the

11     Skorpion unit and because of that provocation they carried out the

12     specific incident."

13        Q.   Now, can you read the next sentence.

14        A.   "After this event, following my order, on my orders" -- "after

15     the incident, on my orders, members of the unit boarded the buses and

16     returned to Prolom Banja."

17        Q.   Did you order the members of the unit to board the buses and

18     return to Prolom Banja?

19        A.   I have repeated this a number of times.  When I reached the scene

20     and when I saw what had happened there, I told my members, the ones who

21     were on the scene, that all the members of the reserve force should be

22     returned to the buses and that they should wait to be sent back or

23     returned to Prolom Banja.

24        Q.   In this statement and in your testimony to the Court, you said

25     you ordered them.  That's what I want.  Did you order them on the buses

Page 13670

 1     and back to where you had brought them from?

 2        A.   I told the members of my unit, I ordered them, to send back all

 3     the Skorpion members on the buses and to send them to Prolom Banja, and

 4     if these -- if there were any members of the reserve force of the Serbia

 5     MUP, then certainly that order would have applied to them too because I,

 6     as a senior officer, can -- could order subordinates.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'm not asking you about the people that you referred to

 8     as members of your unit.  I'm asking about the Skorpion members.  And for

 9     the third time, I ask you again, it's simple, it's a simple question:

10     Did you, as you said in the trial in Prokuplje and as you said in this

11     statement, order the Skorpion members, order the Skorpion members, to

12     board the buses and return to Prolom Banja?

13        A.   To all those who were there, members of the reserve force.

14        Q.   Very well.  That is your answer.  Did you cause any statements to

15     be taken from any of the Skorpion members?

16        A.   I have told you that following this incident when I sent them

17     back to Prolom Banja I left for Belgrade.  The investigative authorities

18     remained there and they were the ones who were supposed to conduct an

19     on-site investigation.

20        Q.   Very well.  Could we just have a look at the Criminal Code for

21     Serbia.  I just want to ask you if you are aware of something.

22             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, while we move to that document, could I

23     ask that this document before the Court be received in evidence.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01590.

Page 13671

 1             MR. STAMP:  And the previous document, Your Honours, 06118, that

 2     part which is the testimony, the record of the testimony of Mr. Simovic

 3     before the Prokuplje district court, if that part could be received as

 4     well.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we hesitated about that yesterday, Mr. Stamp,

 6     but in view of the further extent to which you've used it and the

 7     responses of the witness, I think it would be useful to have the

 8     statement in the record, so it too will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01591.

10             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could the Court Officer --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, before Mr. Stamp gets going with his

12     question.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If I may seek an explanation.  The

14     1591, P1591, that is the statement by Mr. Simovic that he provided at the

15     trial on the 9th of October, 2001 before the Prokuplje court on pages 30,

16     31, and 32 of the transcript.  Was my understanding correct, that's all I

17     wanted to check?

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Can you help us there, Mr. Stamp?

19             MR. STAMP:  I can in respect to the -- if it pleases Your

20     Honours, I hope I can in respect to the --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I understood Exhibit P1591 as it now is that part

22     of the transcript of the proceedings in the court in Serbia.

23             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  That relates to the testimony of this witness.

25             MR. STAMP:  And I think that is in the English the second part of

Page 13672

 1     the exhibit, pages 1 to 5.  And I think in Serbian it starts at page 32.

 2     Pages 30 to 32.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Does that resolve the problem for you,

 4     Mr. Djurdjic?  Thank you.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Could we also, I'm sorry, have the first page.  The

 6     witness had looked at that to identify what the record was.  That is the

 7     page indicating who the Judges were and how the Tribunal was set up.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  You want pages 1 and pages 30, 31, 32.

 9             MR. STAMP:  In Serbian.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  In Serbian.  And it's pages 1 to 5 in English; is

11     that correct?

12             MR. STAMP:  And it's page 1, and I think the English is broken in

13     two parts because there are separate translations done, so it's page 1 of

14     the first part in English and page 1 to 5 of the second part.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It's suggested to me by the Court Officer that it

17     may avoid confusion if at a convenient time today or tomorrow there was

18     uploaded separately those pages in English and Serbian which you seek to

19     tender.

20             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  If that is correct and if there is no difficulty

22     with what we understand, that will be received.  If there is a

23     difficulty, the matter can be raised in court tomorrow.

24             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

25        Q.   I don't think we need to look at the -- or we might not.  Are you

Page 13673

 1     aware that the Criminal Code of Serbia provides that any official who

 2     fails to report a crime or the perpetrators of a crime would be guilty of

 3     an offence?

 4        A.   I think that this offence, this crime was reported.  It was

 5     reported to the competent authorities, to the Podujevo OUP to take

 6     further steps.

 7        Q.   But you know that that is the legal position, that any official

 8     person who had any knowledge had a responsibility to make a report?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And I think you also said that you informed Mr. Lukic, the head

11     of the staff?

12        A.   No.  I said that I informed the staff, not Mr. Lukic.

13        Q.   I see.  Who in the staff did you inform?

14        A.   I really can't remember now who was at the headquarters.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at D296.

17        Q.   This is one of the daily report summaries of important events

18     sent by the MUP staff to, among other people, the minister and also to

19     Mr. Djordjevic.  And this is dated the 29th of March, 1999.  And if you

20     look at the beginning there, the summary, it relates to security related

21     events, incidents and information registered between 0600 hours on the

22     28th of March and 0600 hours on the 29th of March, 1999.  That's the day

23     of this incident.

24             MR. STAMP:  Could we go to the last page, please, in both.

25        Q.   It's from Major Lukic and in paragraph 5, or section 5, in

Page 13674

 1     respect to serious crimes, there is no reference to this mass murder.  Do

 2     you know why it is that the MUP staff did not record in its daily

 3     reporting this mass murder when they reported it to Mr. Djordjevic and to

 4     the minister?  When they sent the report to Mr. Djordjevic and the

 5     minister?  Do you know why it's not there?

 6        A.   I know that on the 28th I reported to Podujevo OUP and informed

 7     the staff of this, and as to why it was not reported in this daily

 8     report, I really don't know.

 9        Q.   Very well.  On the day of the incident when you reported it to

10     Mr. Djordjevic, did he give you any instructions as to any further action

11     you should take?

12        A.   I informed the chief of the department that I had sent the unit

13     back to Prolom Banja and that they should organise someone to receive

14     them there, and because I could not reach Mr. Trajkovic, and I did not

15     know where the other administrations were that I could inform, so that

16     they could take measures against members of the reserve force.  I only

17     informed the chief of the department that I had sent them back and why I

18     had sent them back, and then I went on to travel to Belgrade.

19        Q.   That is not focused on the question I asked at all.

20             Do you remember the question I asked you last?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What was it?

23        A.   Well, you asked me whether I had informed the chief of

24     department --

25        Q.   No, I didn't.

Page 13675

 1        A.   That I had sent the Skorpions back.

 2        Q.   I didn't ask you that.  Please, please, listen to what I --

 3        A.   Then I did not understand you.

 4        Q.   Listen to what I'm asking you.  Did Mr. Djordjevic give you any

 5     instructions as to any further action you should take?

 6        A.   At that point no.  I just informed him of what had happened, that

 7     I had sent them back.

 8        Q.   Did Mr. Djordjevic give you any instructions as to any further

 9     action you should take at any point?

10        A.   I told General Djordjevic on that occasion that I was going to

11     Belgrade so that I couldn't take any steps in Belgrade, and there

12     couldn't be any specific action that I should take, and he knew where I

13     was going.

14        Q.   Did Mr. Djordjevic at any point, give you any instructions as to

15     any further action you should take?

16        A.   In respect of what, this incident?

17        Q.   Yes, in respect to what you reported to him.

18        A.   Not to me.

19        Q.   Incidentally, Mr. Trajkovic said that when he got involved in the

20     accident on the 27th, it was you who informed Mr. Djordjevic about the

21     accident.  Is that correct?

22        A.   No, that is not correct.  I informed the chief of the department

23     on the 28th that I was sending the reserve force back.

24        Q.   Yes.  I'm not asking about that now.  I'm only asking you now

25     about the 27th.  I think Mr. Trajkovic said that when Mr. Djordjevic was

Page 13676

 1     informed that he was injured, you agreed with Mr. Djordjevic to introduce

 2     the Skorpions, to take them over into Kosovo.  Do you recall that?

 3        A.   I really don't know what Mr. Trajkovic might have said and who he

 4     had a conversation with.

 5        Q.   I'm just asking you -- forget about Mr. Trajkovic, what

 6     Mr. Trajkovic said.  When Mr. Trajkovic was injured on the 27th, did you

 7     speak to Mr. Djordjevic about it?

 8        A.   I told you yesterday, and I repeat, on the 27th when he returned

 9     from the hospital in Pristina and from the staff, Mr. Trajkovic told me

10     to go and fetch the reserve force, the MUP reserve force.  I don't know

11     what conversation you are referring to.

12             Around 1700 hours on the 27th, I received instructions from

13     Mr. Trajkovic to go to Prolom Banja.

14        Q.   Did you speak to Mr. Djordjevic on the 27th?

15        A.   I've already told you that I did not.  Not on the 27th.

16        Q.   Mr. -- one moment.  We had a former member of the Skorpions who

17     testified before the trial and he said that when they returned to Banja

18     Luka -- to Prolom Banja, no one questioned any of the Skorpions about the

19     event in Podujevo.  No one was arrested and taken into custody.  No

20     internal investigation was carried out.  Were you aware that none of

21     these things were done when the Skorpions, the perpetrators that you sent

22     back went to Prolom Banja?

23        A.   This is the first time that I hear about that, but on the same

24     evening, on the 28th Prokuplje OUP inspectors were in Prolom Banja.

25     Someone mentioned this to me.  I can't remember who.

Page 13677

 1        Q.   Well, I'm not asking you about where police inspectors from

 2     Prokuplje might be and what they were doing.  I'm asking you specifically

 3     about these Skorpions, the perpetrators of a mass murder that you sent

 4     back.  Do you know that no one questioned them about this mass murder in

 5     Prolom Banja?

 6        A.   I don't know that.

 7        Q.   Do you know that while they were in Prolom Banja the perpetrators

 8     were known but nobody was arrested or taken into custody?

 9        A.   I really don't.  I told you that on the 28th I left for Belgrade

10     and I have no further information as to what was happening with them, and

11     I've repeated this on several occasions.  After I left for Belgrade, I

12     don't know what was happening with them because competent authorities

13     took over and they were working on this.

14        Q.   That is what I'm asking you.  I'm asking you about the work of

15     the competent authorities.  You sent back these mass murderers with their

16     weapons without taking even a statement.  Do you know that while they

17     were in Prolom Banja, there was no investigation?

18        A.   I know that measures were taken to conduct all investigative

19     measures, but after I left for Belgrade, I don't know what transpired nor

20     could I have any impact on the course of the investigation.

21        Q.   When did you return to Kosovo from Belgrade?  How many days after

22     the 28th?

23        A.   Well, I've already said that I don't remember exactly on what

24     date, but it was immediately following the funeral that I returned to

25     Kosovo and Metohija.

Page 13678

 1        Q.   At some time around the 29th, 30th, 31st March?

 2        A.   I really don't know the date.

 3        Q.   Now, you went to Kosovo Polje where the SAJ had established its

 4     base when you returned to Kosovo?

 5        A.   No, on that occasion I went to Gracanica where the forward

 6     command post of the Pristina SAJ was because the NATO air-strikes had

 7     begun, and we could not remain at the base in Ajvalija.  I was informed

 8     there that the new base of the SAJ was in Kosovo Polje, and then I went

 9     to Kosovo Polje.

10        Q.   Now, is it correct that sometime in about -- I think this is your

11     evidence, so just tell me yes or no -- sometime in about the middle of

12     April or after the 15th or 16th of April the Skorpions were bused, were

13     taken back to the SAJ base, this time at Kosovo Polje?

14        A.   No.  I said that in late April they arrived and the

15     then-Commander Trajkovic then took over control of them.

16        Q.   Couldn't it be on or about the 15th -- sorry, on or about the

17     18th of April?  Could that qualify as an approximate time when the

18     Skorpions returned?

19        A.   No, I said it was in late April, the end of April, that could be

20     the 28th, the 29th, or the 30th.  Not the 18th.  The end of the month,

21     not mid-month.

22        Q.   And Stoparic he said that he was re-recruited on the 15th or

23     16th, and a couple of days later he was taken to Kosovo Polje where

24     Mr. Trajkovic had his headquarters in a large house.  Did Mr. Trajkovic

25     have headquarters in a house in Kosovo Polje?

Page 13679

 1        A.   That was the SAJ headquarters or staff.

 2        Q.   And he said that when he and the remainder of the Skorpions

 3     returned there, you were still one of Mr. Trajkovic deputies, or you were

 4     still commander of the Belgrade SAJ; is that correct?

 5        A.   I was never deputy commander to Commander Trajkovic.  I was never

 6     his deputy.  I was never the deputy to Commander Trajkovic.  I was the

 7     commander of the Belgrade SAJ.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Stoparic testified that -- well, before we get to that,

 9     the Skorpions who rejoined you in late April, as you say, were they

10     assigned to both of the SAJ units at Belgrade and the Pristina unit, or

11     were they assigned to only one?

12        A.   I've already said, when Mr. Trajkovic took them over, members of

13     the reserve force were sent or were divided, and one group was sent to

14     the Pristina SAJ and the other group to the Belgrade SAJ.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic also testified that all of the men but one who

16     shot these civilian women and children were returned armed and given

17     high-powered weapons and put on their command again.  Were you aware of

18     that?

19        A.   I really don't know what Stoparic or Stoparevic, as you call him,

20     I don't know who the man is who you are referring to, what statement he

21     gave.  I said when they were returned at the end of April, when they were

22     taken over by Mr. Trajkovic, that they were divided, the SAJ in Pristina

23     and the SAJ in Belgrade.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us and

Page 13680

 1     the witness to be shown parts of the statement by the witness referred to

 2     by Mr. Stamp.  Now, the last piece of interpretation I received about

 3     these weapons, and I don't know what strength the weapons were and

 4     everything else, I don't know that this is mentioned and the name

 5     Stoparic mentioned, so I think it would be a good idea if we were to see

 6     what it is that Stoparic is saying so that we can read it and then we can

 7     go on to asking the witness questions and see whether it's right or

 8     wrong.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  You do need, at least, to give a reference if you

10     are quoting from statements so that Mr. Djurdjic can follow you up,

11     Mr. Stamp.

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  Page 2844, lines -- well, I'll

13     just read the answer, line 22 to 25.  Answer of Mr. Stoparic:

14             "First let me correct you.  We were not redeployed to Podujevo

15     but rather to Kosovo Polje.  Of the man that I claimed have taken part in

16     the execution of a civilian, only Cvjetan Sasa didn't return.  All the

17     rest returned."

18        Q.   Anyway, Witness, forget Stoparic.  The question is this:  Do you

19     know at the time of the redeployment of any measures that had been taken

20     to weed out, so to speak, or purge, or discover those persons who were

21     responsible for the massacre?

22        A.   Commander Trajkovic said, told me and Commander Stalevic, that he

23     would again ask the minister that the reserve MUP composition be assigned

24     to us but in a sifted version.  What he meant, I don't know, but all I

25     know is that none of the reserve forces could come and be part of the

Page 13681

 1     reserve forces without being checked out, their criminal records checked

 2     out and so on.

 3        Q.   So are you saying that you know that their criminal records were

 4     checked out?  You know that?

 5        A.   That's the duty of the police, when they engage somebody to

 6     become a member of the reserve force, they have to check that person out.

 7     That's their duty.

 8        Q.   Anyway, you are telling me about what is supposed to happen.  I'm

 9     asking you if you know if that happened?

10        A.   They couldn't have been engaged in the reserve force in the first

11     place without having been checked out by the police.

12        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Back to the question.  Do you know of any

13     measures that had been taken by late April when the Skorpions returned to

14     be re-engaged with the SAJ, to weed out those who had committed the crime

15     at Podujevo?

16        A.   I knew that the procedure was underway, but nothing more than

17     that.

18        Q.   So I take it that at that time you didn't know whether or not you

19     were re-engaging mass murderers?

20        A.   I did not know the members of the reserve force by name.  They

21     were returned as the reserve force of the MUP attached to the SAJ, and

22     they were supposed to come previously having been checked out by the

23     police.  It was the police that were supposed to have done the checks.

24     We don't select MUP reservists.  They are assigned to us.  The SAJ does

25     not have a reserve force, and I've said that any number of times.

Page 13682

 1        Q.   But you are saying things which are not related to my question.

 2             Having not done anything or having -- or not knowing what steps

 3     had been taken, you were re-engaging persons who -- that you did not know

 4     whether or not they had committed crimes; is that true?  When I say

 5     crimes, committed the crime at Podujevo.

 6        A.   It's not true that I didn't undertake anything.  When that

 7     unfortunate event took place, I reported it to Podujevo.  I informed the

 8     staff about it and the OUP of Podujevo informed the investigating judge

 9     and the proceedings went on from there, so I don't make the decision

10     about whether the reserve force would be attached to me or not.  It comes

11     from a proposal from Commander Trajkovic and the people that were -- the

12     reserve force added on to us attached to us were returned, according to

13     Mr. Trajkovic, that they had been checked out.

14        Q.   You said yesterday that, and I'll find it to read it.  At page

15     13594, page 18 [sic], and this is in respect to these Skorpion members or

16     members of the reserve force that came back to Kosovo Polje:

17             "Some of them were assigned to the SAJ in Belgrade and some to

18     the SAJ in Pristina.  Once they were attached to my unit, and this was in

19     Kosovo Polje, I organised a meeting with these men.  I hadn't -- I

20     didn't -- I didn't identify any of them as being the participant in the

21     incident in Podujevo."

22             On what basis, Mr. Simovic, could you identify or not identify

23     any of these men as participants in the murder, if you didn't follow the

24     investigation?

25        A.   I said that I didn't recognise anybody who was on the scene in

Page 13683

 1     Podujevo.

 2        Q.   No.  I just read what you said.

 3        A.   I said when Commander Trajkovic took them over in Kosovo Polje

 4     and when a certain number attached to me, and when I talked to them, that

 5     I didn't recognise anybody from the scene in Podujevo.

 6        Q.   That's what you say now.  But the record indicates that you

 7     didn't identify any of them as being a participant in the incident in

 8     Podujevo.  So the question is:  On what basis could you determine who was

 9     a participant and who was not?

10        A.   I say again, I didn't recognise anybody from the scene as having

11     been there.

12        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Simovic, I represent to you that the record is a

13     record of what you said yesterday, and I'll move on.

14             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at D441.  This is the on-site

15     investigation report.  Could we move to page 2.

16        Q.   One page in Serbian, is it, or two pages?  Did you see this

17     on-site report, on-site investigation report before you reincorporated

18     these men on your command?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   In one paragraph -- well, you said you haven't seen it.

21             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at 65 ter 1841.

22        Q.   That, Mr. Simovic, I want to recall for the time being is the

23     on-site investigation report in this massacre.

24             MR. STAMP:  Sorry, Defence 65 ter.  This is a document on the

25     Defence list which we got yesterday.  And I think I'm told that it should

Page 13684

 1     be referred to at this point in time by the e-court ID, identification

 2     number, which is D003-1454 in English and D003-1452 in Serbian.

 3        Q.   This is ruling to conduct an investigation and to order the

 4     detention of suspects by the investigating Judge Mijat Bajovic of the

 5     Prokuplje district court, and it's dated the 24th of May, 1999.  This was

 6     more than -- well, approximately a month after the Skorpions are

 7     re-engaged.

 8             And if you look at it in the ruling it relates to Sasa Cvjetan

 9     and Dejan Demirovic, and you can see that they were taken into custody on

10     the 21st of May, 1999.  Did you know that that is when these men were

11     arrested, these two men were arrested?

12        A.   No, I did not know of the date.

13        Q.   In respect to the charge section where it says "For" and then

14     "Suspect Sasa Cvjetan," it reads:

15             "Reasonable grounds suspect that on the 28th of March, 1999 in

16     Podujevo, as a member of the reserve force of the SAJ (special

17     anti-terrorist unit) with premeditated intent, while participating in

18     operative processing of the terrain, killed several persons..."

19             Do you know on what basis did the investigating magistrate refer

20     to Cvjetan as a member of the reserve force of the SAJ?

21        A.   I really don't know.  I don't know.  Perhaps it's Cvjetan's

22     statement.  I know nothing about that.

23        Q.   Well, you know that this is done, this order is issued before the

24     magistrate interviews the witness -- interviews the accused, don't you

25     know that?

Page 13685

 1        A.   I really don't know nothing about that -- anything about that.

 2        Q.   If you look at the next page in respect to Dejan Demirovic, he is

 3     also described -- and we only need to move in English forward to the next

 4     page.

 5             He is also described as a member of the reserve force of the SAJ.

 6     I take it you don't know about that either?

 7        A.   I don't know about that, no.

 8        Q.   Are you aware -- well, if you go back to the first page, we can

 9     see that they were arrested on the 21st of May, 1999.  I think we have

10     pointed that out before, so maybe I could move to another document.

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could this document be received in

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01592.

15             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look at document B/C/S e-court ID

16     D003-1452.  English D003-1454.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  That seems to be the reference, Mr. Stamp, to the

18     document that has just become an exhibit.

19             MR. STAMP:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?  If the

22     other document is under a D number, then it is 003-1431.

23             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's what the Prosecutor had in

25     mind.

Page 13686

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  You are better at reading his mind

 2     than I am, Mr. Djurdjic.

 3             MR. STAMP:  And in English it's D003-1433.

 4        Q.   While that is coming up, Mr. Trajkovic testified that for some

 5     reason this massacre received a lot of attention in the press in Serbia.

 6     Do you recall that happening in 1999 during the war?

 7        A.   I don't know.  Who said that, did you say?  I did not understand

 8     the name, who said that.

 9        Q.   It doesn't matter who said it.  Do you recall that --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have to intervene.  In the

12     interpretation it said that some -- that a man called Cekovic [phoen]

13     said something to the media.  That's what the witness heard and that's

14     what I heard, but in the transcript the name is quite different as you

15     can see here.  So through our headsets we heard Mr. Cekovic, that it was

16     Mr. Cekovic who said what Mr. Stamp said about the public information

17     media.

18             MR. STAMP:  Very well, I'll ask the question without referring to

19     the name.

20        Q.   During the war in May, did this massacre become a feature of some

21     notoriety in the media in Serbia and elsewhere?

22        A.   I remember the note in the media, but I can't remember the date

23     because in May I was elsewhere.  I was in Kosovo and Metohija.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at this document quickly.  This is a criminal

25     report charging Mr. Cvjetan and Mr. Demirovic.  Your copy is probably not

Page 13687

 1     the most legible, but if we look at the -- at paragraph 2.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  While you are sorting that out, Mr. Stamp, yes,

 3     Mr. Djurdjic.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a document which

 5     is to be found in hard copy.  It exists in hard copy, so it is number 5,

 6     document number 5, and perhaps the witness could be provided with a hard

 7     copy to look at.  It might be easier for the witness to see if in front

 8     of him rather than looking at the screen and e-court.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   Would that help, Witness?

11        A.   But anyway, yes.

12        Q.   Found it, Mr. Simovic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It's the criminal report against these two men, Dejan Demirovic

15     and Sasa Cvjetan.  On the 23rd of May, 1999.  If we go to the last page,

16     you'll see that it was signed by Captains Klikovac and Oparnica, and they

17     were from the OUP Podujevo?

18        A.   I really don't know which OUP they were from.

19        Q.   Well, you have the document in front of you.  If you go to the

20     first page, you will see who the document is from.

21        A.   It doesn't say where they were from here.  It just says Dusko --

22     it just says Captains Dusko Klikovac and Milos Oparnica, authorised

23     officials.

24        Q.   Go to the first page.  It was sent by the department of the

25     interior of Podujevo, 23rd of May.  KU Number 6599 is the serial number.

Page 13688

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it refers to both of them, and this is the third paragraph of

 3     section 2, that:

 4             "Sasa Cvjetan and Dejan Demirovic, with several other

 5     unidentified perpetrators, as members of the reserve force of the SAJ."

 6             Why would these two captains in the Podujevo OUP characterise

 7     them as members of the reserve force of the SAJ; do you know why?

 8        A.   I really don't know, and I repeat again, SAJ did not have its own

 9     reserve force, nor did it ever have one.  We received our reserve forces

10     from the MUP of the Republic of Serbia only as an attachment, but we

11     didn't have an SAJ reserve force.  The SAJ never had a reserve force of

12     any kind.

13        Q.   If we go back to the last page quickly.  We'll see that the --

14     this is -- again I remind you of a date.  This is late May, two months

15     after the incident.  This is the police report charging two people, and

16     you see the attachments, on-site investigation report, KR Number 21 of

17     1999, which is the on-site investigation report of one page, which I

18     showed you five minutes ago; written statements by the reported persons,

19     that is the two accused; decision on remand in custody; a record of a

20     search of Sasa Cvjetan; forensic documentation of the scene.  Upon until

21     that time they hadn't taken any statements from any of your policemen,

22     any of the Skorpions except these two persons who are now being arrested.

23     Were you aware of that?  Two months later these are the state of the

24     investigation?

25        A.   I really don't know how the competent authorities organised this

Page 13689

 1     work.  They did the best they could and I really don't know because I

 2     didn't take part in the identification and other matters.  I was in

 3     charge of my unit, and this was conducted by the investigating judge in

 4     Prokuplje.

 5        Q.   Are you aware that as a result of this, that Cvjetan and

 6     Demirovic, although they were arrested, they were released within ten

 7     days?  Are you aware of that?

 8        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.

 9        Q.   When they were tried, when you testified at the trial in

10     Prokuplje in 2003, they had been re-arrested, and this was after this

11     Tribunal became involved, at least at the trial.  They had been

12     re-arrested for that trial; were you aware of that?

13        A.   I became aware of that when I was summonsed by the Court to

14     appear as a witness.

15        Q.   And you are aware of that that even at that stage because of the

16     investigation that had proceeded, the case against these men had to be

17     dismissed and to be recommenced two years later in Belgrade; are you

18     aware of that -- or withdrawn, I'm not sure how long after.  This case in

19     Prokuplje had to be dismissed and was later recommenced in Belgrade; do

20     you know that?

21        A.   I don't know that.  All I know is that they were convicted,

22     sentenced, and that I'm glad that they were actually meted out a decision

23     or actually a punishment that they deserve.

24             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, the document before the Court, I tender

25     it and ask that it be received in evidence.

Page 13690

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01593.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it a convenient time?

 4             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours, it is.  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the second adjournment now and resume

 6     at 6.15.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit down.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Mr. Simovic, were you deployed with the SAJ in Eastern Slavonia

16     in the period 1991 to 1994?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Were you deployed as a policeman in Croatia at any time?

19        A.   I already said no.

20        Q.   You said yesterday at -- and I'm moving on to something else --

21     at 13594, if I could quote you, in respect to these reservists:

22             "What is important was that they had all served in the army

23     because there was a requirement for all members of these reserve force.

24     They would have had to serve in the army.  And based on what military

25     specialty they had served in while they were in the army, they would be

Page 13691

 1     used in order to establish groups or teams that were -- that would be

 2     capable of carrying out certain tasks."

 3             Would the requirement, what you said was the important

 4     requirement that they had served in the army, did that apply to every one

 5     of these Skorpion, these members of the units, the Skorpion unit, to your

 6     knowledge?

 7        A.   I know that every member of the reserve force of the MUP in order

 8     to qualify to become a member of the reserve MUP force would have had to

 9     serve in the army.

10        Q.   Right.  If we look at the Law on Internal Affairs for the

11     Republic of Serbia.  That's P66, Article 27, I think there's a provision

12     for that.  If you go just very quickly to remind us of what the law says.

13     While it's coming up, can you answer me precisely, did you, of your own

14     knowledge, become aware that the members of this unit, which I refer to,

15     the Skorpion, had -- were members of the army had done their military

16     service, or are you assuming this because this was a requirement of the

17     law?

18        A.   The police administration had to comply with the legal

19     provisions, and members of the reserve MUP forces had to have served in

20     the army.

21        Q.   So basically you assume this on the basis of the legal

22     requirements?

23        A.   It is understood that they would have served in the army.

24        Q.   And that's Article 27, providing:

25             "In case of an imminent threat of war or war, the Ministry of the

Page 13692

 1     Interior shall be brought up to strength with conscripts to the reserve

 2     force of the ministry."

 3             There's a slight error in that translation.  But that is the

 4     relevant legal provision, is it not?

 5        A.   Only conscripts may be deployed, those who also meet the legal

 6     requirements to work in the Ministry of the Interior.  In other words,

 7     those who have served in the army can be actually engaged to work in the

 8     reserve force of the Ministry of the Interior.

 9        Q.   Were you aware that many of these members of the Skorpions had no

10     military service?

11        A.   I only knew that the police administration had to comply with the

12     procedure whereby the reserve MUP force members had to have served in the

13     army.  Whether the police administration actually did comply with this

14     legal provision, I really don't know.

15        Q.   Okay.  We've had evidence on this, the question is slightly

16     different, not what ought to have been done.  We understand that the law

17     is that for war time engagement of a reservist of the MUP, they would

18     have to be conscripts and pass other requirements.  I am asking you now,

19     when these men were re-engaged to you at Kosovo Polje, were you aware or

20     did you become aware that many of them were not conscripts?

21        A.   In Kosovo Polje they were received by Commander Trajkovic, and he

22     actually assigned them to the Pristina SAJ and to my unit.  I did not

23     question the commander's decision and I didn't know that there were among

24     them those who were not conscripts, because in order to qualify to become

25     a member of the reserve force of the MUP, they would have had to serve in

Page 13693

 1     the army.

 2        Q.   Mr. Stoparic testified that as much as 50 per cent of the 120

 3     Skorpion members had no previous combat experience.  Some didn't even

 4     know how to handle weapons.  Were you aware of that?

 5        A.   I really don't know what Mr. Stoparic said.

 6        Q.   Were you aware that approximately 50 per cent of the Skorpions

 7     had no combat experience, some couldn't even handle weapons properly?

 8        A.   All I knew was that they were members of the reserve force and

 9     that the requirement was for them to have served in the army and if they

10     hadn't, then that was an omission committed by the police administration

11     and not an error on my part.

12        Q.   I'm not -- I'm just asking about what you knew at the time.  I'm

13     not saying that you made an error.

14        A.   I didn't know at that time.

15        Q.   We had the testimony of General Aleksandar Vasiljevic who said

16     that he asked for a check to be made of who these Skorpions were, and the

17     report he got back was that "there were many persons with criminal

18     records and that they had a general reputation of being criminals.  There

19     were many criminal types in their ranks.  They were problematic people."

20     That's quoting him.  During the war that never came to your attention,

21     that you were co-mingling with -- well, that these Skorpions that were

22     engaged with you included persons who were criminals or criminal types?

23        A.   What General Vasiljevic said, I don't know.  What I do know is

24     that the member of the reserve MUP force could not be admitted as a

25     member of the reserve force unless they went through background checks.

Page 13694

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would appreciate the reference

 3     where Mr. Vasiljevic said this, that he actually said this of members of

 4     the reserve MUP force who were attached to the SAJ unit, and could he

 5     please tell us where this reference is coming from, which part of his

 6     statement.

 7             MR. STAMP:  What I put was that General Vasiljevic said he made a

 8     check on the Skorpions who were attached to the MUP and that the

 9     Skorpions included persons who were criminals and criminal types, and

10     this is 5666 and 5667 of the record.  Those are transcript pages.

11        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic [sic] said at 5666 from lines 13:  What is stated

12     in the report was that the group was headed by Slobodan Medic and that

13     the group he organised [indiscernible] himself comprised 120 to 150

14     people, that there were practically two groups who went to Kosovo, one

15     that was organised by Slobodan Medic, aka Boca, at the initiative of

16     Mrgan Denanovic [phoen] who in 1991 had been appointed as [indiscernible]

17     Slavonia minister of defence, and that the other group was organised and

18     led by Dalibor Novakovic.  The report also said that in essence, these

19     persons had experience in the battle-field in the former Yugoslavia, that

20     among them there were persons who had criminal records, but no names are

21     named, that they had returned to Kosovo a couple of days earlier.  So

22     since we are there, did you know of another group of reservists that were

23     organised around somebody by the name of Dalibor Novakovic?

24        A.   This is the first time that I hear that.

25        Q.   Anyway, Mr. -- General Vasiljevic said, among the persons, there

Page 13695

 1     were many persons who had criminal records.  You weren't aware -- well,

 2     were you aware of this?

 3        A.   I don't know what Mr. Vasiljevic said, but I know that one could

 4     not become a member of the reserve force in the MUP if that person had a

 5     criminal record, and without background checks.  So they would have to be

 6     a conscript to have served in the army, and in order to become a member

 7     of the reserve force of the MUP.

 8        Q.   Later on at page 5667, Mr. Vasiljevic was asked:

 9             "Briefly, in maybe a sentence or two, did your operative report

10     indicate what the reputation was in respect to what they had been up to

11     in the battle-fields in the former Yugoslavia?

12             "A. I don't know specifically what they had done there.  I know

13     they were paid as an organised group in the so-called Bihac operation.

14     Simply there were some MUP units, JSO to be more precise, in that area.

15     The general classification was that there were criminal types in their

16     ranks, problematic people, which was written in the dossiers of those

17     people who had returned from the battle-fields."

18             That is Mr. Vasiljevic's testimony.  Are you aware that this was

19     the sort of people that you were recruiting into the police force?

20        A.   Well, I'm saying again I don't know what Mr. Vasiljevic said.  I

21     don't understand this.  All I can say, and I have to repeat it, is that

22     every member of the reserve force in the MUP had to be a conscript, and

23     they had to not have a criminal record.

24        Q.   Yes, but to recruit police officers, don't you also check their

25     backgrounds to see what their reputation is?

Page 13696

 1        A.   The reserve forces of the MUP, the people who actually applied to

 2     become members were being checked by the police administration in charge

 3     of that.  As for members of the SAJ, I personally conducted the

 4     background checks and all the other necessary checks.  An active member

 5     of the SAJ could become an active member only if he or she was already an

 6     employee of the Ministry of the Interior and had a good record as an

 7     employee of the Ministry of the Interior, one of the better workers.  And

 8     of course, they had also had to qualify, they had to meet all the

 9     requirements for admittance into the special unit.

10        Q.   You remember we were speaking earlier about the charges against

11     Demirovic and Cvjetan, they were two people who were charged in 2002 and

12     2003, but I represent to you, Mr. Simovic, that there were more than two

13     people who were shooting during the incident.  And I'd like to show you

14     the last indictment, the 2008 indictment, against some of the remaining

15     people who have now been charged in Serbia.

16             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at document 06116.

17        Q.   Are you aware that in the latter part of 2007 or 2008 four other

18     persons were charged in respect to this massacre in Serbia?

19        A.   I heard it in the media, and I was pleased that the investigation

20     uncovered the other participants in this massacre.

21             MR. STAMP:  If we could pause there to see where we are at.  This

22     is an indictment of the 14th of April, 2008.

23        Q.   The first person charged --

24             MR. STAMP:  If we could scroll down to the bottom in B/C/S.

25        Q.   -- is a Zeljko Djukic, and if we could move on in English to look

Page 13697

 1     at the second person charged, Dragan Medic.  We'll see in his description

 2     in this indictment, he had no military service, no military record, no

 3     criminal record.  So you note here that we have here somebody with no

 4     military service at all?

 5        A.   I see that now, and that was an omission by the police

 6     administration unit that mobilised these reserve force members.

 7        Q.   The third person charged, Dragan Borojevic, you could look at

 8     this one, and if you could just read -- just read to yourself -- the

 9     criminal record dating back to before 1996.

10        A.   I've read it.

11        Q.   It seems that on the -- if we move to the next page in English so

12     that we could look at it.  It seems that prior -- it seems that on the

13     25th of November, 1996, he was sentenced to imprisonment for extortion,

14     and we can see that prior to that he was also sentenced imprisonment for

15     unauthorised possession of weapons.

16             So how is it that an interested person like General Vasiljevic

17     could make one inquiry for these people to be checked out and he could

18     immediately and quickly receive information that this group was composed

19     of many criminal and criminal types, yet you didn't know about that,

20     Mr. Trajkovic didn't know about that, Mr. Djordjevic didn't know about

21     that?  All you senior policemen didn't know about it, yet Mr. Vasiljevic

22     on one inquiry could discover it.  Could you explain that to the Court?

23        A.   The police administration was duty-bound to do a background check

24     on each individual and it did so.  How this omission occurred, I really

25     don't know.

Page 13698

 1        Q.   If we look at the next one, Miodrag Solaja.  You see that he has

 2     a criminal record as well, two or three offences here for which he was

 3     sentenced imprisonment.  They were subsequent to 1999, but this is the

 4     type of persons that you are working with, Mr. Simovic.

 5        A.   I did not co-operate with them.  The reserve forces of the

 6     Republic of Serbia MUP was taken over by Trajkovic, and he assigned it to

 7     the special units of the SAJ Pristina and SAJ Belgrade.

 8        Q.   If we look at the judgement against Sasa Cvjetan, we would also

 9     see that he was a criminal, notwithstanding that his offence, his other

10     offence, apart from the massacre that he was convicted of, was committed

11     subsequent to the massacre.

12             MR. STAMP:  That is P40, and it's on the first page, and that is

13     the judgement against Sasa Cvjetan in the Belgrade court.

14        Q.   Did you know about that conviction?  Or maybe we should just look

15     at it.

16             MR. STAMP:  Could you bring P40 before the Court.  And go to the

17     first page.

18        Q.   If we look at the judgement, so that is the part on the second

19     heading.  Crimes in 2001, 2004.  This is after he had been released

20     because the Podujevo massacre wasn't investigated, he still continued

21     along a criminal career.  You see that?  Mr. Simovic?

22        A.   Yes, I see that.

23        Q.   And you know -- you know Boca, Slobodan Medic, he is serving a

24     40-year term for another massacre that was committed in the mid-1990s,

25     about five years before the Podujevo incident in Bosnia, where he and

Page 13699

 1     some other of his Skorpion members lined up a group of boys and young men

 2     and executed them?  You know that?  Do you know that?

 3        A.   I learned of that in the media, also during the trial of Slobodan

 4     Milosevic before this Tribunal.  I know that some footage was shown of

 5     this crime committed by the Skorpion unit in Bosnia.  That was the first

 6     time that I heard of it.  And as for Mr. Medic, I've already told you, I

 7     told you yesterday, that I met him for the first time and saw him for the

 8     first time when I went to Prolom Banja when Mr. Zivko Trajkovic told me

 9     that he would be there.  Before Podujevo, I had never seen Mr. Medic.

10        Q.   Again I ask you, Mr. Simovic, you see, any time we see in the

11     record of these persons, almost all of these records show the character

12     of these persons who were incorporated to the police and given

13     high-powered weapons and put in positions where they are amongst

14     civilians.  This is what we are seeing.  General Vasiljevic upon hearing

15     about them made an inquiry and he learned that these were criminals who

16     had been incorporated in the police.  How is it, Mr. Djordjevic, who was

17     responsible or participated in engaging them in the police force did not

18     know about these men?  You are a senior policeman.  Tell us, how could it

19     have escaped him in Belgrade?

20        A.   I state again, reception into the MUP, there's special department

21     in the police administration dealing with that.  And it was up to them to

22     take people in.  And we read an article of the Law on Internal Affairs.

23     Only those people who had completed their military service and who didn't

24     have a criminal police file could be admitted.  So I really don't know

25     what you are asking, how this was done, because I didn't do it.  I don't

Page 13700

 1     know why that hadn't been done.

 2             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at 06113.  Before we do that, Your

 3     Honour, could the document before the one on e-court now, 06116, be

 4     received in evidence.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01594.

 7             MR. STAMP:  And if we could now look at 06113.

 8        Q.   This is a military document.  I think earlier that you did your

 9     military service.  Are you familiar with documents like this?

10        A.   I didn't do my military service, and this is the first time that

11     I see a document of this kind.

12        Q.   This is the 16th of May supplement to a report from the 3rd Army

13     security department.  And in the penultimate paragraph -- can you read

14     it?  It says that:

15             "Major-General verified information Major-General Djakovic,

16     operative officer in command of the 3rd Army, recognised in this group a

17     certain Slobodan Medic, aka Boca, and asked what sort of task had brought

18     him there.  To which the other replied that he had come under the order

19     of the MUP General Roda."

20             Who is normally referred to as -- who is General Roda?  Who is

21     that referring to?

22        A.   I've never seen this document before.  This is the first time I'm

23     looking at it.  Now, what Mr. Djakovic wrote here, I really can't comment

24     on.

25        Q.   Who is MUP General Roda, that's all I'm asking now?

Page 13701

 1        A.   All I can tell you all the MUP generals, give you their names,

 2     their first name and last name, but I don't know their nicknames.

 3        Q.   You don't know that General Djordjevic is referred to as General

 4     Roda, or that Roda is his nickname or Radja?

 5        A.   I never addressed him by his nickname.  I was a professional

 6     myself and I always addressed my superiors by rank or position.

 7        Q.   Yes, I know, but this document refers to Boca speaking.  Boca is

 8     a different quality of person.  Do you know what General Djordjevic's

 9     nickname was?

10        A.   I've already said, as far as my superior officers are concerned,

11     I always addressed them by name and surname or by rank.  As to nicknames,

12     I know that Commander Trajkovic was Zile because we were close, but as

13     for the others, I really don't know.  They might have any one of

14     thousands of nicknames.

15        Q.   Were you present when the Skorpions received their weapons in

16     Prolom Banja on the 27th?

17        A.   No, I was not.

18             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I want to move on from this document

19     but I wouldn't tender it.  I would just ask that it be marked since it

20     was shown to the witness.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01595 marked

23     for identification.

24             MR. STAMP:  And the last document that I'd like to show you,

25     Mr. Simovic, is 06111.  This is a report to the investigation department

Page 13702

 1     of the district court of Prokuplje dated the 11th of March, 2002.  I can

 2     just indicate that on the English translation, there's an error in that

 3     the date is not included in the top left-hand column as it is in the

 4     original in B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And it is in respect to a request from the district court, and if

 6     we just move to the end of the document to see who it's from, it's from

 7     the chief of administration, Major-General Knezevic.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Page 2 in the B/C/S, page 3 in the English.

 9        Q.   And if we go back to page 2 -- the first page, we see that Major

10     Knezevic is from the administration for prevention of organised crime,

11     and it says:

12             "The administration for prevention of organised crime acted upon

13     your request to collect the required information in order to successfully

14     conduct an investigation against the accused persons, Sasa Cvjetan and

15     Dejan Demirovic for a criminal offence of war crimes against the civilian

16     population under Article 142."

17             And in the first bullet point it says:  "Accused Cvjetan and

18     Demirovic were members of the Skorpion units."  And the second bullet

19     points it says:  "The Skorpions was founded as a volunteer unit of 128

20     members."  Was it lawful to incorporate volunteers into the police?

21        A.   Volunteers were never incorporated into the police, nor could

22     somebody volunteer to join up.

23        Q.   It was not lawful?

24        A.   What did you say?

25        Q.   What was not lawful?

Page 13703

 1        A.   The reserve force was recruited into the police by the department

 2     for the reserve force in the police administration.

 3        Q.   And if you look at the second page in English, I think it's the

 4     bottom of the first page in B/C/S, it says:

 5             "On the 25th of March, 1999, the Skorpions unit was transferred

 6     to the reserve formations of the MUP SAJ with the approval of

 7     Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic..."

 8        A.   I don't know about this piece of information.  I'm not aware of

 9     it, and this is the first time that I see it.

10        Q.   But this is a document emanating from the MUP; you would at least

11     agree with that?

12        A.   I really don't know who wrote this document, but as I say, this

13     is the first time that I'm hearing about this.  I know that the police

14     administration, or rather, the department of the reserve force, took in

15     members of the reserve force into MUP.  Admitted members of the reserve

16     force into MUP.

17             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could this police report be received in

18     evidence and given an exhibit number.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two

21     objections.  The first is that this document has nothing to do with this

22     witness.  He did not draft it, nor did he take part in its drafting, nor

23     does he know anything about this document.  And the second point is this,

24     the document has a number of pages and everything that is contained in

25     this document and which is on e-court is not a component part of the

Page 13704

 1     document to which Mr. Stamp refers.  But if you wish, I can explain why

 2     or we can carry on tomorrow morning in view of the time.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, maybe I could check and sort out

 4     whatever it is overnight.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we'll leave it overnight, and if you want

 6     to pursue that, do so.  And the matter can be taken up again when we

 7     resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We must adjourn overnight now to resume at 9.00

10     tomorrow morning.  The Court Officer will assist you.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st of April,

14                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.