Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13705

 1                           Wednesday, 21 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit down.  The affirmation you made to tell

 9     the truth continues to apply, and Mr. Stamp is finishing his questions.

10             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11                           WITNESS:  ZORAN SIMOVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Simovic.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Did you participate in any meeting with either Mr. Djordjevic or

17     Mr. Milanovic, or Mr. Trajkovic in respect to the engagement, the

18     original engagement or re-engagement of the Skorpions?

19        A.   No, I did not.  Only with Mr. Trajkovic, I had the one meeting.

20        Q.   So the circumstances in which they were -- in which the decisions

21     were made to engage them and to re-engage them are matters which you know

22     only by hearsay being a non-participant?

23        A.   Everything I heard, I heard from Commander Trajkovic about the

24     reserve force being engaged.  I didn't know who was to be engaged

25     precisely.  During a regular SAJ command meeting, Trajkovic proposed that

Page 13706

 1     a reserve force be brought in.  That's all I can tell you.

 2        Q.   Can you say when this meeting was?

 3        A.   That meeting took place in February.

 4        Q.   Was this early February or towards the latter part of February;

 5     do you remember?

 6        A.   In the second half of February.  I can't tell you a precise date,

 7     but in the second half of it.

 8        Q.   Did you attend a meeting, a MUP staff meeting, on the 17th of

 9     February, 1999, that was attended by the minister, Mr. Djordjevic;

10     Mr. Rado Markovic, the head of the state security sector; Mr. Stevanovic,

11     in Pristina; Mr. Lukic, the entire leadership of the MUP in Pristina?

12        A.   I was not a member of the staff, and I did not attend a single

13     staff meeting in Pristina.

14        Q.   Okay.  Whether you call it a staff meeting, do you remember

15     attending a meeting in mid-February in Pristina, attended by the

16     minister, Mr. Djordjevic; Mr. Rade Markovic; assistant minister,

17     Stevanovic; General Lukic; do you recall attending any meeting like that?

18        A.   I repeat, I did not attend a single meeting of the MUP staff in

19     Pristina, and I was not its member.  I could not have participated in

20     such meetings.

21        Q.   That's not exactly what I asked the last time.  Do you remember

22     ever attending a meeting where Mr. Djordjevic, and the minister, and

23     Mr. Rade Markovic were both -- where all three were present in February

24     1999?

25        A.   No, I don't.

Page 13707

 1        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  So these decisions were made at a level above

 2     your position, that is what I take your last few answers to mean?

 3        A.   What decisions do you have in mind?

 4        Q.   The decisions to engage paramilitaries and volunteers and groups

 5     like the Skorpions.

 6        A.   It happened without my knowledge.  I could not have known or

 7     influenced any decisions of that nature, only the SAJ commander could

 8     make such proposals.  I couldn't.

 9        Q.   Very well.  If I may show you another document quickly.  This is

10     P356.  I represent to you, sir, that there was a meeting of the -- a

11     meeting involving the minister, Mr. Djordjevic, Mr. Markovic, Mr. Lukic,

12     the entire leadership of the MUP in Pristina.  You didn't attend, but I

13     represent to you that there was such a meeting.  And following on from

14     this meeting on the next day, this is a dispatch issued by

15     Mr. Djordjevic.  If we could just look at the front.  Can you recall if

16     you ever saw this dispatch?

17        A.   No.  I have never seen this dispatch.  I can see in the heading

18     that there is no mention of SAJ.

19        Q.   One moment.  I think I might have misstated something.  Very

20     well.  If we could go to paragraph 7.  Well, first, let's just confirm

21     who sent it.

22             MR. STAMP:  If we go to the last page in B/C/S and the

23     penultimate page in English.

24        Q.   This was a dispatch of Mr. Djordjevic.  And if we go to item 7,

25     there was this order issued in respect to compiling lists and

Page 13708

 1     establishing control of volunteer and paramilitary units and their

 2     members.  Did you -- were you familiar with this order?

 3        A.   No, I was not.  This dispatch was not sent to the special unit at

 4     all.

 5        Q.   Very well.  If we could move on to something else then,

 6     Mr. Simovic.  You said that in May, early May 1999, the Skorpions along

 7     with the regular SAJ were engaged in activities in Jezerce Planina.  Can

 8     you tell us where that was?  Do you recall the nearest municipal seat to

 9     where your activities were?  Or where the combat operations were

10     undertaken?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you repeat the name of the mountain for

12     the interpreters.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area of mount Jezerce.

14             MR. STAMP:

15        Q.   Right.  Thank you.  Jezerce Planina; is that the area?

16        A.   Yes.  Or Jezerce Planina, or you can say mount Jezerce, whatever

17     suits you best.

18        Q.   Where is this?  Can you --

19        A.   In Kosovo and Metohija.  I don't know how to explain it any

20     better, in what area.

21        Q.   Which was the nearest municipal capital to where this operation

22     took place?

23        A.   Well, we can say Strpce.

24        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  In that period of time or on or about the 1st

25     and 2nd of May, 1999, were your units engaged in operations in the area

Page 13709

 1     north-east of Vucitrn?

 2        A.   No, they were not.

 3        Q.   At that time in early May 1999, were the two side attachments

 4     acting in -- together as one unit?

 5        A.   SAJ Pristina and SAJ Belgrade always took part as a single unit.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Do you recall participating in operations in the

 7     vicinity of a town called Skrovna and Slakovci in the Vucitrn

 8     municipality in May?

 9        A.   I don't recall that.  We were assigned tasks all over Kosovo;

10     however, at that point in time, my unit was not in that particular area.

11        Q.   Very well.  If we could move on to another topic.  I think you

12     said that the commander of the SAJ premises at Batajnica told you that

13     there were bodies that had been buried there, at the 13 May training

14     range.  Can you recall about when it was that he told you this?

15        A.   It wasn't the commander of the SAJ premises who told me.  It was

16     Mr. Djokovic, commander of the security squadron of the SAJ.  Once we

17     returned there after the war, he told me that at the 300-metre firing

18     range, some bodies had been buried just behind the breastwork.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Instead of squadron

20     it should have been SAJ platoon.

21             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I wish to ask just two questions in

22     private session.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 13710











11  Page 13710 redacted. Private session.















Page 13711

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. Simovic.  Thank you, Your Honours.  I

13     have nothing further for this witness.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

15             Mr. Djurdjic.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

18        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Simovic.

19        A.   Good morning.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

21     be asked to approach the microphone.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Stamp asked you a moment ago about the SAJ meeting with

24     Mr. Trajkovic and the Pristina SAJ commander.  You said that it happened

25     in the latter part of February, you omitted the year though.

Page 13712

 1        A.   I had 1999 in mind.

 2        Q.   The usher is trying to indicate to you that you should approach

 3     the microphone because the interpreters cannot hear you properly.

 4        A.   I am certain that it was in 1999.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Simovic, tell me this, please, who is responsible

 6     for the overall situation and ability of the SAJ unit in order to execute

 7     its tasks?

 8        A.   The SAJ commander.

 9        Q.   Who was that in 1998 and 1999?

10        A.   Commander Trajkovic.

11        Q.   Was Commander Trajkovic familiar with the staffing levels of the

12     units as well as the level of training and equipment provided?

13        A.   Yes, we kept him always informed, that is to say, Commander

14     Stalevic who commanded the Pristina unit and myself who was in charge of

15     the special unit in Belgrade.

16        Q.   Did the chief of the sector, could he [Realtime transcript read

17     in error "we"] have been familiar with the needs of the SAJ unit?

18        A.   No, unless he had previously been informed by the SAJ commander.

19        Q.   In your knowledge did Commander Trajkovic towards the end of

20     February 1999 acquaint the sector chief with the needs of the SAJ?

21        A.   At one of the meetings we had, Commander Trajkovic, Mr. Stalevic,

22     and myself attended it.  He did tell us that he informed the chief of the

23     sector about our staffing levels problems and that he had told him we

24     were in need of a reserve force, as well as that Mr. Trajkovic had the

25     people for that.  The chief of the sector needed to clear that with the

Page 13713

 1     minister, that they be admitted into the reserve force and engaged.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1594.  Your

 4     Honours, page 8, line 16, instead of "we" it should be "he."

 5        Q.   Mr. Simovic, you can see the front page where it says

 6     "indictment."  The date is 14 April 2008.  The document of the

 7     Prosecutor's Office for war crimes in Belgrade.  The first accused is

 8     Zeljko Djukic.  Can you tell us whether you can see here if he had served

 9     his military service?

10        A.   Yes, he had.  It also says that he is an invalid of war.

11        Q.   What about his previous criminal record, what does it say?

12        A.   Could you please scroll up so that I would be able to see the

13     rest of the text.

14        Q.   I don't think there's anything else on that page.

15        A.   Well, there's no mention of any criminal record.

16        Q.   Thank you, could we now move to page 2, item 2 of this

17     indictment.  Number 2 is Medic, Dragan.  What does it say about prior

18     convictions?

19        A.   No prior convictions.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Look at number 3.  It says Dragan Borojevic.  Can you

21     see whether he had any prior convictions, and if so, in which year?

22        A.   In 1996 in Beli Manastir.

23        Q.   Where is Beli Manastir?

24        A.   In the Republic of Croatia.

25        Q.   What about the next one, can you tell us in which year and where?

Page 13714

 1     Do you see the next --

 2        A.   Yes, I see Miodrag Solaja.

 3        Q.   No, not the next name.  What are the next convictions for the

 4     person we were discussing?

 5        A.   It was in Donji Miholjac.

 6        Q.   And where is Donji Miholjac, Mr. Simovic?

 7        A.   I think in the Republic of Croatia.

 8        Q.   And further below?

 9        A.   Yes, it says the court in Vukovar.

10        Q.   Which year?

11        A.   1998.

12        Q.   The court in Vukovar, please.  Which year was this conviction?

13        A.   15 May, 2005.

14        Q.   Where is Vukovar?

15        A.   Republic of Croatia.

16        Q.   He was sentenced to how many years?

17        A.   12 years imprisonment.

18        Q.   From what you see here, were these convictions made in the

19     presence or the absence of the accused?

20        A.   Towards the end of 1995, all the Serbs from that area moved to

21     Serbia, and many of them were tried in their absence, not because they

22     had committed any crimes, but just because they were Serbs.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, did this man serve in the army?  Did he do

24     his regular military service?

25        A.   He did, in Sarajevo.

Page 13715

 1        Q.   What about Miodrag Solaja, number 4, did he have any convictions,

 2     and if so, where and when?

 3        A.   In 2003 he was convicted before the court in Vinkovci.

 4        Q.   Will you read it out?

 5        A.   In 2003 he was convicted by a judgement of the municipal court in

 6     Vinkovci, K number 631/03 dated 18 April 2004 for the crime stipulated in

 7     Article 177, paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code of Croatia, sentenced to,

 8     et cetera.

 9        Q.   Now, tell me, did any of these persons get any convictions in

10     1999 or for 1999 in the Republic of Serbia?

11        A.   None of them were convicted in Serbia.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up P40.

13        Q.   We will see on the screen a judgement of the district court in

14     Belgrade K number 1803 against the accused Sasa Cvjetan, dated 13

15     February 2004.  Can you tell us whether this person had any prior

16     convictions?  And if so, when?

17        A.   He was convicted in 2001 in Bijelo Polje and in 2004 in Novi Sad.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was he convicted in 1999?

19        A.   He was not convicted before 1999.

20        Q.   Mr. Simovic, can you tell us how the MUP of Serbia checks people

21     for prior convictions?

22        A.   The Ministry of the Interior does the checks through the

23     secretariat of Internal Affairs in the place of residence.

24        Q.   Who keeps records of convictions?

25        A.   The Secretariat of the Interior, they keep them.

Page 13716

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can the MUP ask for reports for records of

 2     convictions outside of the Republic of Serbia?

 3        A.   Only through the courts, otherwise it cannot.

 4        Q.   Can somebody's prior convictions be established on the basis of

 5     witness statements or citizen statements?

 6        A.   No, no, certainly not.  Only from the records of convictions, not

 7     from hearsay or statements.

 8        Q.   Mr. Stamp showed you yesterday part of the evidence given by

 9     General Vasiljevic where he stated that members of certain units had been

10     convicted to multiple years in prison.  I'd like to ask you if you had

11     ever seen any document corroborating this statement of General

12     Vasiljevic?

13        A.   I have never seen such a document nor do I know of any.

14        Q.   Has ever a document been shown to you that would indicate when

15     General Vasiljevic became aware of prior convictions of concern members

16     of the reserve unit?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that.

18        Q.   Mr. Stamp asked you yesterday whether members of the reserve unit

19     must have combat experience.  Could you tell us what you understand

20     combat experience to mean?

21        A.   Combat experience is understood to mean experience in an actual

22     war, not experience gained through military service because out of 100

23     per cent of those who served in the army, only perhaps 9 or 10 per cent

24     had combat experience.

25        Q.   When men are admitted into the reserve force of the MUP, is the

Page 13717

 1     regular military service the only requirement?

 2        A.   Under the law, the person must have done their regular military

 3     service and must have no prior convictions.

 4        Q.   When the members of the reserve unit came for the second time to

 5     Kosovo Polje and when a certain number of them were seconded to you,

 6     would you tell me how you assigned them?

 7        A.   I told you, I held a meeting with them and based on their

 8     military specialty they gained during their regular military service, I

 9     assigned them.

10        Q.   What did you actually do?

11        A.   Based on their military specialty, I formed certain groups that I

12     could use as required.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?  The microphone

14     is switched on.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter can't hear counsel.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now we can hear one another.

17     I have here certain documents shown to you by Mr. Stamp earlier.  We are

18     all able to read them, I won't show them to you.  Your Honours, I have no

19     further questions for Mr. Simovic.  Thank you, Mr. Simovic, for giving

20     evidence as a Defence witness.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Simovic, I have a couple of questions, and I

24     would like to take you back to your evidence two days ago, especially to

25     the events in Podujevo.  Could you please explain the size of the unit

Page 13718

 1     you were the commander of?  How many members did this unit have?

 2        A.   You mean my SAJ unit?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

 4        A.   At that time around 80 men.  Between 70 and 80 because one of my

 5     platoons remained in Belgrade to secure the base that had been relocated.

 6     There were several men who were injured and were absent from the unit.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many of them were present in Podujevo when

 8     you arrived in this village?

 9        A.   My entire SAJ unit, I don't know the exact strength, but around

10     70, 80 men.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And do you know how many, as you call it, reserve

12     police members were present at that time in Podujevo?

13        A.   Your Honours, do you mean only members of the reserve unit that I

14     brought?  Because in the area of Podujevo, there were many reservists who

15     had been seconded to the police station of Podujevo.  They also had their

16     own reserve.  If you mean the reserve unit of the MUP that I had brought

17     from Prolom Banja, there were two bus loads of them.  That means over

18     100, perhaps 115 or 120.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You explained that this unit of reserve police

20     force didn't have a commander.  Who was responsible for them?  Who could

21     issue orders to them?

22        A.   They were a reserve unit of the MUP, and a reserve force of the

23     MUP is seconded normally to some active duty force.  And when that is

24     done, they fall under the responsibility of the one to whom they are

25     seconded.  Mr. Trajkovic told me that when I come there, I should meet

Page 13719

 1     with Mr. Medic because he was in charge of them.  Now, in which way he

 2     was in charge of them, whether based on a verbal agreement with Trajkovic

 3     or otherwise, I don't know, but in any case, on the orders of

 4     Mr. Trajkovic, I made contact with Mr. Medic.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very sorry, but I didn't understand you.

 6     Could you explain again.  Those members of the police force, the reserve

 7     police force, you have taken to Podujevo.  Who on the spot could issue

 8     orders to them, to those you personally have brought to Podujevo?

 9        A.   They were brought there, and they were supposed to be seconded to

10     the special unit, the command of the special unit.  The then commander,

11     Trajkovic, was not in Podujevo.  They were supposed to be seconded to SAJ

12     Belgrade and SAJ Pristina.  If I had actually introduced them, absorbed

13     them into my unit, then the commanders of SAJ Pristina and SAJ Belgrade,

14     that is myself, would have been responsible for them.  However, as soon

15     as they came, they did what they did, and I just returned them to Prolom

16     Banja.  At that time, they were under the command of the MUP of Serbia.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said that several timings, but in Podujevo

18     when these reserve police force members were present in Podujevo, who

19     could issue orders to them on the spot in this moment in Podujevo?  Who

20     was responsible for them?  I'm not asking you who was responsible present

21     in Belgrade or in Pristina or somewhere else.  On the spot in Podujevo,

22     who was responsible for them?

23        A.   On the spot in Podujevo up to the moment they are absorbed, only

24     once they are absorbed into our units then Commander Trajkovic, Commander

25     Stalevic, and I would have been be responsible.  Trajkovic was absent.

Page 13720

 1     Stalevic and I were there.  But they were never absorbed into our units

 2     because they had already done what we discussed.  They were turned back.

 3     I just received an order from Commander Trajkovic to bring them, and I

 4     brought them under my authority, but they had by that time not yet been

 5     seconded to the command of the SAJ.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, are you saying that there was nobody

 7     present who could issue orders to them in that moment they were present

 8     in Podujevo?

 9        A.   At that moment when they were there, when they were just brought

10     there, and if they had been seconded to us, from that moment of

11     secondment they would have been under our command.  They were still

12     undergoing the procedure of admission, but that procedure was never

13     completed because they had done what they had done and at my own

14     initiative and on my own authority, I turned them back.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I understood you correctly, you took them to

16     Podujevo; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And from that moment on, there was nobody in the

19     command of these reserve police force members because they were not

20     subordinated to you?  I don't understand that.  Somebody must have been

21     in command.

22        A.   I can only tell you what I know and what actually happened.  I

23     received from Commander Trajkovic an order to go and get them.  At that

24     time they were still reservists of the MUP of Serbia until the moment

25     they are resubordinated, seconded.  From the moment of resubordination,

Page 13721

 1     they would have been the responsibility of the person who took them over,

 2     but the procedure of resubordination had never been completed because of

 3     what they had done.  They were turned back.  They were supposed to wait

 4     on the buses until accommodation is found for them, until the procedure

 5     of their admission and secondment is completed, and from the moment of

 6     completion of that procedure, they would have been the responsibility of

 7     the one who accepted and admitted them.  At that time they were not

 8     responsible to me because I only brought them on my authority and turned

 9     them back on my authority when they had perpetrated that crime.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you didn't hand over them to anybody else, to

11     another commander?  You brought them there without turning over them to

12     the command of somebody else?

13        A.   No, they were supposed to be under the command of the SAJ.  Since

14     the SAJ Commander Trajkovic was not there, once the procedure is

15     completed they would have been admitted by the commander of SAJ Pristina

16     and myself.  However, that procedure was never completed because of what

17     they had done, and I turned them back.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Some minute ago, you told us that your unit

19     comprised of around 80 policemen of the SAJ unit.  How many of them did

20     you ask who was responsible for the crime committed in the courtyard?

21     How many of them you personally asked?

22        A.   I asked those who were around on the spot.  I mean, the regular

23     members of the SAJ.  There were some of my own unit members, there was

24     Dr. Dragan, who belonged to SAJ Pristina, and all of those present I

25     asked if they had seen who had committed the crime.  One of my COs

Page 13722

 1     Vulevic was also there, and him I also asked.  Nobody had seen who had

 2     committed the crime.  All they knew was that these men were members of

 3     the reserve force who had been -- supposed to stay on the bus, but they

 4     left the bus.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you how many of them did you personally

 6     ask.  You answered those around.  How many have been present to whom you

 7     put this question?

 8        A.   Really at this moment, Your Honour, I can't remember how many.

 9     There were several of them, a number of them.  I told you how many things

10     happened in such a short time.  All the members of my regular unit, I

11     asked all of them.  They didn't see.  If they had seen, they would ex

12     officio arrested these people on the spot because the SAJ is the most

13     professional unit within the MUP.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you only asked those who were present and

15     around you at that moment, it can't be 80.  How could you say that nobody

16     of your unit, nobody among those 80 did see the crime?

17        A.   Your Honour, the members of my unit were resting.  They were in

18     various buildings in Podujevo.  Just a certain number of them happened to

19     be on the spot who heard the shooting and ran out.  So it was not my

20     entire unit was on the spot.  There was just a certain number of them who

21     were around.  It's not a large number.  I asked all of those who were

22     present out of my regular unit members.  They didn't know who had

23     committed the crime.  If they had known, they would have certainly

24     arrested the people concerned on the spot.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You told us something about how you secured the

Page 13723

 1     site, the crime site.  Can you explain that any further, how was the

 2     crime site secured?

 3        A.   I never said I secured the crime scene.  I just didn't go there

 4     not to trample on the evidence.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  I try to find the relevant part.

 6     Two days ago in the transcript page 56, line 15 you said:

 7             "In order not to" -- you were asked why you didn't enter the

 8     courtyard and then you said, I quote:

 9             "In order not to trample on the trace evidence.  So I was really

10     trying hard, and that's why I went to Podujevo immediately in order to

11     ensure that the site was secured."

12             How was the site secured, and what had you done and ordered?

13        A.   I informed the competent authority, and that was the OUP

14     Podujevo, about what had happened.  They were supposed to go out to the

15     crime scene immediately and secure the crime scene so that an on-site

16     investigation can take place.  After informing the OUP Podujevo, the

17     staff, and General Djordjevic, I did not return to the scene.  Instead, I

18     left for Belgrade very soon afterwards.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I take it that you didn't secure the crime

20     site personally, you just informed the OUP; is that correct?

21        A.   All authorised official are familiar with the procedure.  They

22     know that after an incident, they are not to go to the crime scene so as

23     not to tamper with any evidence.  That is why I only informed the OUP in

24     Podujevo so that they could take measures as soon as possible in order to

25     preserve evidence.

Page 13724

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the transcript of the same day, page 60, line

 2     10 and the following, you said, I quote:

 3             "That I organised the providing assistance to these people and

 4     also to make sure that the trace evidence was not displaced and to secure

 5     the crime scene."

 6             To secure the crime scene.  Again, you left Podujevo with your

 7     unit and informed the OUP.  How can you say that you secured the crime

 8     scene?  What measures to secure the crime scene did you take?

 9        A.   The members of my unit who were on the spot as well as the

10     physician who was there administering first aid, that is what I had in

11     mind when I said that I took care that assistance be provided.  I made

12     sure that an ambulance arrived there so that those in need could be

13     transported.  When I say that we secured the spot, I meant that my

14     members were there but that no one could actually go to the crime scene

15     so as not to destroy any evidence.  That is why I went to Podujevo to

16     inform the OUP there, which was the competent body.  They had the

17     necessary personnel such as scene-of-crime officers who were there to

18     properly secure the location pending arrival of investigative

19     authorities.  Any authorised official knows that after an incident one

20     should not move about the crime scene so as not to destroy any evidence.

21     This is what you learn in the police high school as well as at any police

22     course.  We have the subject called scene-of-crime techniques where the

23     policemen are taught the basic measures so as not to destroy evidence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'd like to stop you here.  That was not my

25     question, what you learned in theory.  I would like to know the situation

Page 13725

 1     on the spot.  When you left the area around this courtyard, the crime

 2     scene, who was present from the OUP?  Which person was present to be able

 3     to secure the crime scene?

 4        A.   I left the crime scene for the Podujevo OUP informing them of

 5     what had taken place.  They were supposed to send out an expert team

 6     immediately to do their work.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Could you explain how the situation

 8     around this courtyard was when you and your unit and the reserve police

 9     force members entered the buses and left.  What -- how was the situation

10     in that moment?

11        A.   I can't remember everything precisely.  Right after Podujevo, I

12     boarded the bus and went for Belgrade.  I don't know what the situation

13     was at that point in time.  I know what the situation was when I left the

14     place though because I left some of my members behind to secure the scene

15     awaiting those from the OUP Podujevo to arrive.  However, what the

16     situation was like at the moment I started for Belgrade, that is

17     something I don't know.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is very interesting that you tell us now

19     that you left some members of your unit behind to secure the scene.

20     That's the first time that I hear it.  Can you tell me how many members

21     of your unit you left behind and which orders did you issue to them?

22        A.   I believe I said so a moment ago.  It was those members whom I

23     had encountered at the crime scene when I went there for the first time.

24     They remained there.  No other members.  Only those who had been there

25     when I came there before going to Podujevo, the same people stayed.

Page 13726

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When did they leave?  When did you see them

 2     again?

 3        A.   I don't understand.  When I left and came back, or?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just want to know when you saw them again after

 5     you have left them back?

 6        A.   My members?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we are talking about them.

 8        A.   As I've said already, my unit members who were at the location

 9     were still there.  I went to the Podujevo OUP informing them and telling

10     Medic that he should join the rest of the reserve members on the bus to

11     go back to Prolom Banja.  After I arrived in the Podujevo OUP, I no

12     longer went back to the crime scene.  Together with my driver, I went to

13     Belgrade.  On the way, we escorted the bus boarded by the reserve

14     members.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the members of your SAJ unit, where were they

16     at that moment?

17        A.   At that moment they were resting save for a few of them who were

18     still at the crime scene.  The rest of them were in our facility.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yesterday you were asked by the Prosecutor if you

20     were the police officer of the highest rank present in -- at the crime

21     scene, and you answered that you didn't see all of the members of the

22     other units and you don't know.  Did you try to find out if there's

23     another high-ranked police officer at the crime scene?

24        A.   At the location where I was and where my unit members were, I was

25     the most senior person in terms of rank.  I was lieutenant-colonel at the

Page 13727

 1     time.  After that, I went to Podujevo.  As for whether there were any

 2     officials there equal to my rank or senior to me in the immediate

 3     vicinity or the general area of the crime scene, that is something I

 4     don't know.  At that point in time there were regular police in Podujevo

 5     as well as the army and special unit of the police, hence I don't know.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about the army, but about the

 7     police.  You said you were the police officer of the highest rank present

 8     directly on the spot outside the courtyard where the crime was committed;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   It is correct.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Another topic, you said that Dr. Markovic tried

12     to assist all those who were injured at that place.  How do you know that

13     he could give first aid to all injured people?

14        A.   At that moment at the scene there were three or four wounded

15     people, that is what I know.  Dr. Dragan administered first aid expertly

16     to all of them and ensured that they be transported to the hospital in

17     Pristina.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How did you know if these 19 people, these dead

19     bodies were really dead or still alive?

20        A.   At that moment I didn't know what the number of people was and

21     whether there were any other wounded among them.  I'm only telling you

22     what I know.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You knew that there was a killing at the

24     courtyard and there were dead bodies.  How did you establish the fact

25     that these are really -- these people are really dead or still alive?

Page 13728

 1        A.   When I was informed by my unit members that there had been a

 2     crime committed at that location and that there were some wounded people

 3     as well as that Dr. Dragan was administering first aid to them, I didn't

 4     know what the number of those killed was among the people in the

 5     courtyard and whether there were any other wounded.  I can only tell you

 6     what I recall and what is true to the best of my knowledge.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have no further questions.  Thank you very

 8     much.

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Simovic, I have a few questions for you, but

10     let me say this straightaway, I fully appreciate that you have been

11     testifying for quite sometime, and I will try my endeavour best to be as

12     brief as possible.  But there are matters that I would like you to assist

13     me with.  Fair enough?

14        A.   Fair enough, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much.  Now, in the transcript of the

16     day before yesterday, you reported as saying that once the men of the

17     reserve force had been attached to your unit, you held a meeting with

18     them.  You said -- you did not identify any of them as being participants

19     in the incidents in Podujevo.  Yesterday you said, however, that you did

20     not say "identify," you said "recognise."  You said you did not recognise

21     any of the men as being participants in the incident at Podujevo.  Do you

22     agree with that yesterday?

23        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

25        A.   I said that I did not -- I had recognition in mind the first time

Page 13729

 1     around, not identification.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  My question to you now is this:  For you to be able

 3     to recognise whether or not the men were participants in the incident at

 4     Podujevo, you had to know who the participants were beforehand, wouldn't

 5     you not say so?  Otherwise, how could you recognise them?

 6        A.   Your Honour, when I was at the scene and when I saw several

 7     reservists there, this is what I meant when I said that I didn't

 8     recognise any of them.  It's not that I knew that someone had committed

 9     the crime and that I wasn't able to recognise them afterwards.  I only

10     meant those whom I had seen there.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  But, therefore -- but if you had seen them and you

12     now would have been in a position to recognise them when you interviewed

13     them; is that what you are saying?

14        A.   Had I seen anyone committing the crime at the location, I would

15     have detained that person immediately.  I said that those from the

16     reserve force who were at the scene who appeared during re-engagement, it

17     is among that group that I couldn't recognise any of them from Podujevo.

18     That was what I meant.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  I'm not following you.  You were able to recognise

20     the faces of all those men so that you could have concluded that they

21     were not participants in the incident at Podujevo, were you not?

22        A.   No.  At the scene I saw several members of the reserve force.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.

24        A.   What I said was that when they arrived in Kosovo Polje, out of

25     the people I saw there, there were none of those whom I had seen before.

Page 13730

 1     Commander Trajkovic did say that the reserve force was to be returned

 2     although --

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much.

 4        A.   -- purged of certain members during re-engagement.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, you said you did not look to see the bodies in

 6     the courtyard because you did not want to interfere with the trace

 7     evidence, did you not?

 8        A.   Yes, I said --

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.

10        A.   -- that I didn't want to go to the crime scene so as not to

11     interfere with any evidence.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  But your men were moving about there, were they

13     not?

14        A.   Several people were there with Dr. Dragan before I came there in

15     order to pull out those wounded.  However, when I arrived there, there

16     was no one moving about the crime scene anymore.

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  But tell me, you did say in the court at Prokuplje

18     that the scene was really crowded with members of different units all

19     mixed together; did you not say that, at the court in Prokuplje?

20        A.   Your Honour, let me explain.  At the scene where it had taken

21     place, there were some of my unit members helping.  In the general area

22     of the scene in the street and around the houses, there were some other

23     members of the regular police and the reserve police of the OUP.

24     However, at the crime scene itself, there were some of my members, Dr.

25     Dragan, one of my officers, and a few members of the reserve force.  This

Page 13731

 1     is what I had in mind.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  So, therefore, when you said "the scene was really

 3     crowded with members of different units all mixed together," what scene

 4     were you referring to?

 5        A.   I had in mind the general area, not the crime scene itself, but

 6     within the perimeter of 20 to 40 metres.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much.  Now, tell me, how long did

 8     the incident at Podujevo last?  How long did it last?

 9        A.   Time-wise I really can't say.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  An idea, a rough estimate?  Any idea at all?

11        A.   Very very briefly.  When I heard bursts, I went immediately to

12     the location.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now then, so you ran outside directly after you

14     heard the two long volleys?

15        A.   I was some 300 metres away.  Having heard the volleys, I knew

16     immediately that something unforeseen had happened.  I ran outside to

17     identify the direction and move towards there.  Some of my members who

18     had also heard those bursts of gun-fire who were closer to the scene ran

19     out too and came to the scene itself.  It was my officer by the name of

20     Vulevic and a number of others.  When I arrived there, they had already

21     been there at the scene.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  When you got on the spot, there were members of the

23     reserve force there, were there not?

24        A.   There were both my unit members, those of the active force, and

25     some reservists.

Page 13732

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Right.  So there you are, you are on the scene, you

 2     ran outside after hearing the volleys of fire, you had this feeling that

 3     something bad had happened, and as it turned out, something bad had, in

 4     fact, happened.  You are also satisfied that the shooting was not done by

 5     your men.  So did you go to the reservists and say to them, Look here,

 6     what is going on, who did this shooting?  Did you as a man in authority

 7     call for an explanation at all from these men?

 8        A.   All those who were at the scene -- well, I put a question to all

 9     of them and everyone was silent.  It was only my unit members who were

10     there, told me, Boss, we didn't see who did this.  If they had seen

11     anyone, we would have detained that person immediately.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  So are you saying that you also made inquiries of

13     the reservists?

14        A.   Of the reservists whom I saw there who were at the scene.  This

15     is what I stated in my statement as well.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  Well, you spoke of speaking to your men, but we

17     didn't hear you say speaking to the reservists.

18        A.   I did say, Your Honour, that I also asked the reservists who were

19     outside the bus who were on the location who had done that, and I stated

20     that they were all silent.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  To this Chamber?  To this Chamber?

22        A.   I believe it was on day one.  Perhaps it should be

23     double-checked.  I think I said that I asked the reservists who were

24     there what had happened, but that no answer came my way.

25             JUDGE BAIRD:  It will be checked, thank you.  Now then, tell me,

Page 13733

 1     Mr. Witness, you said the engagement of the special unit outside the

 2     territory of Kosovo was something only the minister could decide, outside

 3     Kosovo.  Agreed?

 4        A.   I do not understand.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  You said earlier in your evidence that the

 6     engagement of the special unit outside of Kosovo was something only the

 7     minister could decide.  But at the same time, in the territory of Kosovo

 8     and Metohija from the time the MUP staff was established in 1998, the

 9     minister transferred power to the MUP staff so that this staff set up by

10     the minister was able to engage SAJ in KiM without informing the

11     minister.  Yes?

12        A.   That is correct.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

14        A.   The MUP staff of the Republic of Serbia -- please bear with me.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  I want to know if you agree or not because I have

16     another question to follow.  Now this applied to all the units --

17        A.   In the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, the staff was

18     responsible for all units.  It is the MUP staff established by the

19     minister.  They were responsible for all the units in Kosovo.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.  It applied to all units in Kosovo because the

21     minister set up the staff by his own decision, and this staff had all the

22     power to the minister.  Now, Mr. Stamp asked you what you meant when you

23     said, "the staff had all the powers of the minister," and you replied

24     that you were trying to say that if the minister could engage the SAJ

25     outside of Kosovo and Metohija, then the MUP staff was equally able to

Page 13734

 1     engage the SAJ in Kosovo.  Yes?

 2        A.   The staff established by the minister, the staff to counter

 3     terrorism in KiM.

 4             JUDGE BAIRD:  My question to you is this:  Were you aware of any

 5     occasion when the MUP staff engaged the SAJ without informing the

 6     minister?

 7        A.   Outside the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, oh, you mean the

 8     Pristina staff?  The Pristina staff established by the minister could

 9     engage the SAJ without prior notification to the minister.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Were you aware of any instance when this was done?

11        A.   Well, the staff issued tasks to all units in Kosovo and Metohija

12     without ministers approval.  It doesn't matter whether it was the PJP or

13     the SAJ --

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  It happened across the board.  Yes, all right.  But

15     one thing I would like you to help me with here, and perhaps -- now, the

16     staff could have engaged the SAJ without informing the minister, but

17     chief of sector could not engage the SAJ without the permission of the

18     minister.  Can you explain that?

19        A.   I don't understand the chief of the sector.  Who do you have in

20     mind?

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  I'm quoting what you said.  You said the chief of

22     sector could not engage the SAJ without the permission of the minister.

23     Did you not say that?

24        A.   No one could engage the SAJ without the minister's approval.  No

25     one.  Only the staff in the territory of KiM after it was established

Page 13735

 1     could do so.  Otherwise, outside Kosovo, it was only the minister.  In

 2     the territory of Kosovo, it was the staff without informing the minister.

 3     But also the minister could do it, of course.

 4             JUDGE BAIRD:  You have made that quite clear.  Thank you.  Now,

 5     I'm coming to the end of my questions.  I shouldn't be very long.  Now

 6     you said that during the war in 1999, you and Stalevic did not submit

 7     written reports, but upon the completion of each operation, you would

 8     analyse the operation together with Trajkovic, and he would then report

 9     to the staff.  Now, my question to you is:  When you and Stalevic

10     analysed the operation with Trajkovic, did Trajkovic take notes of what

11     was being discussed?

12        A.   Your Honour, I said that after each action, after each operation,

13     we analysed the operation, the three of us together.  Trajkovic, Stalevic

14     and I.  Now, after that, Trajkovic went to the staff.  Whether he

15     informed the staff in writing or orally, I don't know.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  But my question is:  As you all were there

17     analysing the work, did you see Trajkovic taking any notes at all?

18        A.   I really don't remember.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Very well.  Was there any reason for you and

20     Stalevic not submitting written reports?  Was there a reason for that?

21        A.   We did not submit written reports, but instead we met with

22     Trajkovic after every operation and made an analysis; whereas, Trajkovic

23     as member of the staff went to the staff to inform them, whether in

24     writing or verbally, I don't know.  But during the war, we really did

25     not.

Page 13736

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  But there was no reason for --

 2        A.   No, there was no reason.  It was just accepted that a SAJ

 3     commander -- the SAJ commander report to the staff whether in writing or

 4     orally, I don't know.  Stalevic and I did not write any reports.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Whose idea was it not to have written reports?

 6        A.   It was not an idea.  Trajkovic as the commander informed the

 7     staff.

 8             JUDGE BAIRD:  He informed the staff?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, but Stalevic and I didn't.  The commander of SAJ

10     Pristina or I did not inform the staff.  That was done by Trajkovic who

11     was himself a staff member.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  That seems the end of my questions for you,

13     Mr. Simovic.  Thank you very much, indeed.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the second break now and resume at

15     five minutes past 11.00.  It's the first break, I believe.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Your Honour.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Before we start, I would I like to introduce and

22     ask for permission our intern, Mr. Dobrica Stefanovic, he would like to

23     be present to the trial with your permission, and also, you know other

24     member of the team.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Familiar faces, but many of them.

Page 13737

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we welcome the new intern to your team.  He

 3     may, of course, be present.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Sit down again, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm still unclear about one area of your evidence,

 9     and I hope that we can clear that up fairly quickly.  This concerns again

10     the members of this reserve force that came with you to Podujevo.  I

11     think you told us that it was Commander Trajkovic who had given you

12     instructions to collect this force from Serbia and bring it to Podujevo;

13     is that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.  On the 27th around 1700 hours when he returned

15     from Pristina, he had been for a check-up at the hospital, then he

16     returned back to the headquarters and came to Podujevo.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Was he then going to go to Belgrade?

18        A.   If he had not been injured, he would not have gone to Belgrade.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  On the 27th, was he going to Belgrade after he had

20     spoken to you?

21        A.   Yes.  After we had that talk, he went to Belgrade.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Was that for medical treatment or because of the

23     funeral?

24        A.   He went to organise the funeral.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  At that stage, the dead member of your unit was

Page 13738

 1     still -- his body was still in Kosovo; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was transferred from Bradas to the hospital to the

 3     forensic department.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  And do I correctly understand that there were

 5     still uncertainty whether the body could be released to be conveyed to

 6     Belgrade on the 28th or whether that might have to wait until the 29th

 7     for the completion of the forensic examinations?

 8        A.   We did not know with any certainty when the body would be

 9     transported to Belgrade.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  You went yourself to Serbia to where this reserve

11     force had been assembled; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, I went to Prolom Banja.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Was that on the 27th or the 28th?

14        A.   On the 27th I went on the instructions of the commander to see

15     where they were stationed, that's the first time I saw Mr. Medic and told

16     them that early the following morning between 4.00 and 5.00 a.m. I would

17     come to fetch them.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  So you were able to see Mr. Medic on the 27th at

19     Prolom Banja; is that correct?

20        A.   I saw him on the 27th when I came to Prolom Banja.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you see him on the 28th at Prolom Banja?

22        A.   Yes, on the 28th as well.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Did he travel with the reserve force to Podujevo?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  There were two buses, as I understand you, for

Page 13739

 1     conveying this force?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you travel in one of those or in a separate

 4     vehicle?

 5        A.   No, I was in my car, the car I had arrived in.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Medic, did he travel with you or in the buses

 7     or in some other way?

 8        A.   I really can't recall whether he was in my car or in one of the

 9     buses.  I can't remember.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  At Podujevo you left to go to the OUP building; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Was Mr. Medic with you?

14        A.   Yes.  He came with me.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  What was to happen to the two bus loads of the

16     reserve force when you went to the Podujevo building, the OUP building?

17        A.   They were supposed to stay on the buses until accommodation is

18     found for them and then be placed in their accommodation in Podujevo.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  In what way were they told of this?

20        A.   I told Medic to tell them not to get off the buses until

21     accommodation is found for them.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Did he do that?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  When you and Medic went into the OUP building,

25     were the men still on the buses?

Page 13740

 1        A.   They should have been on the buses but it later turned out that

 2     some of them got off.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  When you left the buses, were the men still on the

 4     buses?

 5        A.   Yes, when the buses arrived, they were inside the buses.  When I

 6     went inside the OUP, in the time it took me to get to the OUP building,

 7     some of them had got off.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Where were the buses parked?  At the OUP building

 9     or somewhere else?

10        A.   They were parked, I don't know at which distance from the OUP

11     building, so that when I went inside the OUP building, I don't know what

12     happened meanwhile.  It later turned out that a few of them got off the

13     bus, did what they did, and you know the rest.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  You say a few of them got off the buses.  Do you

15     know whether all of them got off, some of them got off?

16        A.   Some, not a large number.  I don't know the exact number.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  How do you know that?

18        A.   I know that because when I got to the scene, I saw a few of them

19     and later my unit members who were on the spot told me that there were

20     some of them outside the buses.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you see the buses when you left the OUP

22     building?

23        A.   Yes, yes, I saw them.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you see whether there were some men still in

25     the buses or not?

Page 13741

 1        A.   Yes, there were people on the buses.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, in the OUP building, what were you doing?

 3        A.   The commander of the Pristina SAJ Stalevic was there, and we were

 4     supposed, on the orders given by Trajkovic before he had left Podujevo,

 5     to find accommodation for the reservists to absorb them into our units,

 6     and after these actions, to report back to the staff.  However, in the

 7     meanwhile, they had committed what they had committed, and I took the

 8     decision to return them to Prolom Banja.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  You say they -- there was to be a report back to

10     the staff.  Is that the staff at Pristina responsible for terrorist

11     action, anti-terrorist actions, or is that the SAJ staff or some other

12     staff?

13        A.   When I say "staff," I mean the staff for combat against terrorism

14     in Pristina.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  And who was to make that report?

16        A.   Well, once we had completed the accommodation of the personnel,

17     then either Stalevic and I would have made the report.  It didn't matter

18     who.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  One or other of the two lieutenant-colonels; is

20     that correct?

21        A.   Stalevic was a colonel at that time, a higher rank than mine.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  What was the time that you were in the OUP

23     building?  Are you able to give us an estimate of that?

24        A.   I really can't say with any certainty how much time we were

25     inside because after all that happened, I lost the sense of time.  I

Page 13742

 1     can't say whether it was half an hour or an hour.  I can't be sure.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Could it have been longer?

 3        A.   Longer than what?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Than an hour?

 5        A.   No, it couldn't have been longer than an hour.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And what was the reason for that delay?  Was there

 7     some problem about accommodation?

 8        A.   Well, it was necessary to find appropriate premises where people

 9     could be stationed.  That place had to be safe, secure.  It had to be

10     close so that they are not scattered around.  First of all, we had to

11     find that accommodation and then place them, that's why we told them to

12     stay on the buses until they are accommodated.  However, in the meanwhile

13     if -- some of them left the buses and after that you know what happened.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Had you found accommodation?

15        A.   No, in the meanwhile, they were returned.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  What about the task that you and Stalevic had of

17     dividing this reserve force between your two units, had you made any

18     progress with that?

19        A.   No, we did not have time because they were returned in the

20     meantime.  We were supposed to divide them after finding accommodation.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Who was looking for the accommodation then?

22        A.   I told my unit members to see if there was any available

23     accommodation anywhere and to report back to me when they find it.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  And I take it from what you say that there had

25     been no report back to you about accommodation?

Page 13743

 1        A.   Because they didn't find accommodation.  They were only about to

 2     look for it because we had also arrived on a territory that was strange

 3     to us, new to us, and we didn't know the situation there.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  What did you, Stalevic, and Medic do while your

 5     men were looking for accommodation?

 6        A.   We gathered in OUP Podujevo.  We were not taking any steps yet.

 7     We needed to rest a bit, have some coffee, and then go forward with

 8     carrying out the instructions of Commander Trajkovic.  In the meantime,

 9     the shooting was heard and we had not had time to do anything.

10     Immediately afterwards, I made my decision and turned them back.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  What was Medic doing with the two of you, Stalevic

12     and yourself?

13        A.   Commander Trajkovic designated Medic as a liaison man with those

14     men.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Your instructions then had been to go and collect

16     these men, bring them to Podujevo, to accommodate them, to divide them

17     between the two SAJ units, that we've heard.  What was to happen to them

18     after that?

19        A.   After that if the procedure had been completed, they would have

20     been seconded to us, and if they hadn't committed what they had

21     committed.  So if the situation was regular, if there had been no

22     problems, if we had accommodated them, if we had divided them, informed

23     the commander of the SAJ, although he was in Belgrade, and if we had

24     reported to the staff, then they would have become part of the SAJ units.

25     Since none of this happened, I took them back.

Page 13744

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  So you felt that they would not in any way be part

 2     of the SAJ until you had actually divided them between the two units

 3     along with the commander of the Pristina unit, they had been

 4     accommodated, and you had made a report both to Commander Trajkovic and

 5     to the MUP staff in Pristina; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Either Commander Stalevic or I would have taken care of

 7     that.  We would have informed the staff that the procedure of admission

 8     had completed.  We would have had lists, and they would have been

 9     seconded attached to us.  However, this procedure never occurred, and you

10     know the reasons.  So on the authority that Trajkovic gave me, I as the

11     one who brought them --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I stop you because you are going on with a long

13     recitation.  I'm asking you, as so many others have done, shorter

14     specific questions and you want to tell the whole story again.  Why is it

15     that you considered it necessary before these men became part of your

16     unit or some of them became part of your unit, that they be accommodated,

17     that you have lists, and that you make two reports, one to Commander

18     Trajkovic in Belgrade, and one to the staff in Pristina?

19        A.   I had to inform Commander Trajkovic that I had executed his

20     order.  And I would have reported to the staff in Pristina because in the

21     territory of the entire Kosovo and Metohija, that staff was responsible

22     for all units sent there or attached to a unit there, so any unit that

23     had arrived from Serbia to Kosovo and Metohija had to be notified to the

24     staff because from that moment on, the staff would have been responsible

25     for them.

Page 13745

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  I can well understand that the staff in Pristina

 2     needed to know that this force was now in Podujevo and divided between

 3     your two units and as it were ready for action, but why is it that a

 4     report had to be made before they became part of your SAJ unit and part

 5     of the Pristina SAJ unit?  What was there about the report that made that

 6     necessary?

 7        A.   I don't know which report you mean.  I just said that once they

 8     arrived they were supposed after being accommodated and assigned to

 9     units, the staff and the commander had to be informed.  However, that did

10     not happen because before accommodation was ever found, they left the

11     buses without anyone's permission, they did what they did, and

12     afterwards, I did whatever was in my power, I actually took them back.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm exploring the processes that you have not

14     spoken about.  We'll leave the report to the staff in Pristina.  Let's go

15     to the report to Commander Trajkovic.  Is it your evidence that these men

16     would not have become part of your unit and part of the Pristina unit

17     until you had actually spoken to Commander Trajkovic and reported that

18     you had completed his instructions?

19        A.   If everything had been all right, even if I hadn't been able to

20     reach Trajkovic, I would have informed the MUP staff in Pristina because

21     they were in charge of and responsible for all units in Kosovo and

22     Metohija, because I report to the SAJ commander as my direct superior and

23     then I go on to the higher instance and the MUP staff was above Commander

24     Trajkovic.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It seems to me that it would be a very strange

Page 13746

 1     circumstance if you weren't able to reach Commander Trajkovic in

 2     Belgrade, say he was around with some members of the grieving family or

 3     something, that there could be no completion of the action with respect

 4     to the subordination of these men to your unit and to the Pristina unit,

 5     everything held up until such time as you could find where Commander

 6     Trajkovic was and actually tell him.  Do you agree that if you hadn't

 7     been able it to reach Commander Trajkovic, you could have gone on and

 8     simply reported to the staff in Pristina that you had completed what was

 9     required and these men were now divided between your unit and the

10     Pristina SAJ unit?

11        A.   If I had not been able to reach Commander Trajkovic, Stalevic and

12     I would have informed the staff that we had executed the order of

13     Commander Trajkovic our direct superior, because he had received

14     instructions from the staff that we may receive the reserve force if

15     everything had been all right.  However, since all of that happened, I

16     made the decision to turn them back because I thought that was the most

17     rationale thing do at the moment.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we understand each other clearly there.

19     Your instructions that had been given you by Commander Trajkovic were

20     that you were to bring these men to Podujevo, find them accommodation,

21     and with the other commander divide them between your two units; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  If you had sat down with the other commander when

25     you arrived in Podujevo and divided the list of the men in two with each

Page 13747

 1     unit to find accommodation, what more would you have needed to do to

 2     complete the subordination of these men to your units?

 3        A.   We were supposed to accommodate them, to hold a meeting, to

 4     inform higher levels, and once we had informed the staff to make the

 5     staff aware that they were now under our command, that they had been

 6     attached to us, and we disposed of them, then that would have been the

 7     end of the procedure.  So if everything had gone as it had been supposed

 8     to, the staff would have been informed and then it would have been

 9     considered that they had been attached to us.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it really that it was because you and Stalevic

11     had relaxed and had a cup of coffee together that this process had not

12     been completed?

13        A.   This process had not been completed because there was a war going

14     on and because of many other circumstances.  Another factor that came

15     into it was that we had lost a member just before that.  So all the

16     circumstances came together, the bombing, the war, what happened in

17     Bradas.  None of those factors played in our favour.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Let's focus again on Mr. Medic.  You mentioned

19     today for the first time that Commander Trajkovic designated him as the

20     liaison officer; is that what you meant to say?

21        A.   Your Honours, I said the first day that Commander Trajkovic

22     directed me to find Mr. Medic, also known as Boca, there, who was the

23     contact person for them, the liaison.  So when I arrived in Prolom Banja,

24     I first laid eyes on Mr. Medic, I had a talk with him, the first thing he

25     asked me was, where is Zile, meaning Commander Trajkovic, and I explained

Page 13748

 1     what had happened, that Commander Trajkovic had to go to Belgrade, I

 2     conveyed the order of Commander Trajkovic that they were to be ready by

 3     the next day, and then I returned to Podujevo.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you go back overnight on the 27th to Podujevo?

 5        A.   Yes, I went back to Podujevo, and the next morning very early, I

 6     came to collect them.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Where were these men housed overnight on the 27th,

 8     28th?

 9        A.   Prolom Banja is a spa.  There is a hotel there.  And they were in

10     the hotel of the spa.  That's where they were housed.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  And it was to Medic that you turned to ensure that

12     they would be ready for transport early the next morning?

13        A.   Commander Trajkovic had told me that he would be there.  Now,

14     whether Mr. Trajkovic had spoken to him in the meantime, I really don't

15     know whether he had any understanding with Mr. Medic, I don't know.  All

16     I know is that Mr. Trajkovic told me that I should go there on the 27th,

17     and that he would be there as a sort of liaison, and that the following

18     day I should bring them to Podujevo.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  And it was Medic, whom you told on the 27th, that

20     the men should be ready for transport the following morning?

21        A.   On the orders of Commander Trajkovic and in that room where Medic

22     was, there were some other reservists present, so I told everyone in that

23     room that they should be ready early the next morning.  I didn't speak to

24     all of them individually to convey the order of Commander Trajkovic.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  You say you issued a general order to anybody who

Page 13749

 1     heard, or that you spoke to Medic about the arrangements for transport

 2     the next morning?

 3        A.   I only told them that they should be ready the next morning to

 4     board the buses.  I also told them that I would be there the next morning

 5     to take them over, and I did so.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And was it not Medic who was responsible for them

 7     to be ready?

 8        A.   Medic was only a go-between.  To repeat, Mr. Trajkovic told me

 9     that Medic was there to liaise with them.  As for what kind of

10     relationship Mr. Trajkovic had to Mr. Medic, that is something I don't

11     know.  And whether Mr. Trajkovic orally appointed Medic to liaise with

12     them, that's something I'm not familiar with.  I only know that the

13     reserve force cannot have an officer of their own.  They can only have

14     officers upon being attached to an official unit and then the unit they

15     were attached to takes care of all that such as the issuing of orders,

16     logistics, et cetera.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it your evidence then that nobody commanded

18     these men on the 27th or the 28th?

19        A.   No one from the MUP was with them when they arrived.  Only the

20     reservists were in Prolom Banja.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  You haven't answered my question.

22        A.   Whether Mr. Trajkovic -- well, I don't know that.  If Trajkovic

23     had issued orders or had spoken to Medic to be with them pending my

24     arrival, well, that may have been as well, but I'm not familiar with

25     that.

Page 13750

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, who was their commander?  Are you able to

 2     suggest an answer to that?  On the 27th and the 28th.

 3        A.   I cannot presume that.  I can only say to you what Commander

 4     Trajkovic told me about the way to liaise with them.  That's all.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  What about Commander Trajkovic, had he command

 6     authority over them?

 7        A.   I don't know that.  On the 27th, Commander Trajkovic left the

 8     territory of Podujevo having issued the order to me, which I implemented.

 9     He told me who to contact, who was supposed to liaise with them.  Whether

10     he had spoken to Mr. Medic telling him that I would arrive and that he

11     was there to liaise with them, that is something I don't know.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  We have heard all of that several times.  I'm

13     asking you more specifically, is it your evidence that commander

14     Trajkovic could not have given them orders?

15        A.   Commander Trajkovic could not have given them orders unless they

16     were attached to us.  Only after their attachment, he would be able to do

17     so.  Whether he had an oral arrangement made with Trajkovic, that is

18     something I'm not familiar with --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  With Medic.

20        A.   That is something I don't know.  But without any attachment to

21     the SAJ, orders could not be issued.  There was standard procedure that

22     needed to be followed for the SAJ command to assume authority over them

23     as reservists.  That is all I know about that.  For example, the second

24     time around when they arrived in Kosovo Polje, the procedure was followed

25     and they were properly attached to us.

Page 13751

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  You made it clear that Medic had no command

 2     authority over them.

 3        A.   As far as I know, yes.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, what command authority could he have over

 5     them in Serbia as members of the MUP reserve?

 6        A.   I don't know that.  I really don't.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  You say now that Commander Trajkovic had no

 8     command authority.

 9        A.   In my opinion, Mr. Medic was just another reservist.  I didn't

10     know him, and I met him then for the first time.  It was for the first

11     time that I could see the reserve unit in Prolom Banja.  Before that when

12     Commander Trajkovic told me that he had the right men for us, he just

13     said that he had men whom he had met in a different area.  That is all I

14     know.  Anything else I would tell you now would not be the truth of it.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Was Medic an officer of the MUP?

16        A.   Of the active or reserve force?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Either.

18        A.   Yes, he was a member of the reserve force.  As of the moment when

19     they were received individually into the reserve force following

20     minister's orders.  Having become members of the reserve force, they were

21     issued with the regular police uniform used at the time and with weapons.

22     They were the MUP's reserve force, as I said in my testimony the day

23     before yesterday.  The MUP reserve force could only be engaged following

24     an approval of the minister.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  And Trajkovic could not give them any order?

Page 13752

 1        A.   Not before their attachment to the SAJ.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  And Medic was not an SAJ officer?

 3        A.   He never was.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  If those two buses on the way to Podujevo had been

 5     ambushed by a KLA force, are you saying that there is nobody who could

 6     command them?  Those reserve force members?

 7        A.   At that point in time when they were --

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  No one; is that your answer?

 9        A.   No, no, that is not what I'm trying to say.  I really don't know.

10     I never thought about such a situation being possible.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Right.  But you are very adamant that you couldn't

12     have commanded them?

13        A.   I could only command them following their attachment to my unit,

14     not before that.  I merely followed my superior's orders.  He could have

15     ordered anyone else to go and pick them up, and that person would have

16     done the same.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  On what authority could he pick them up and bring

18     them to Podujevo if they were not SAJ and not subject to his command?

19        A.   As I said, on the 27th, before arriving in Podujevo,

20     Mr. Trajkovic went to the staff.  He informed them that someone was to go

21     to take them over and that he had been told that there were reservists in

22     Prolom Banja.  Had he not been wounded, he would have been the one to

23     collect them after the operation to execute the attachment process to the

24     SAJ command and our units.  However, given that the things developed the

25     way they did, on his return, the SAJ commander assigned me the task to do

Page 13753

 1     so.  The task was not implemented for reasons you are familiar with, the

 2     procedure was not followed through, and following my decision to have

 3     them returned, I informed the staff because I wasn't able to get in touch

 4     with Commander Trajkovic by phone.  I informed the sector chief and that

 5     is all I could have done under the circumstances.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  The assignment you were given by Commander

 7     Trajkovic, with respect to these men collecting them as you say, bringing

 8     them to Podujevo, you did not see that in any way as giving you authority

 9     to command these men?

10        A.   No.  I could only have authority following their attachment

11     because in that case, that reserve unit would have been attached to the

12     SAJ.  In absence of that --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  We've gone over that same thing.  You didn't

14     understand that you in any way were to command these men and bring them

15     to Podujevo?

16        A.   On commander's orders, I was merely a liaison officer who was

17     supposed to receive them until the entire procedure is followed through.

18     Had they been attached to my unit, I would have been responsible for

19     them.  This is the way I understood it.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  And you can't suggest on what lawful authority

21     Commander Trajkovic could have done what you did?  That is, bring the men

22     to Podujevo?

23        A.   Commander Trajkovic, even if he had gone to pick them up and had

24     standard procedure been followed, they would have been considered part of

25     the regular MUP force, provided, of course, that the procedure I

Page 13754

 1     mentioned was followed.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Not only followed, but completed, as I understand

 3     you?  It's only after you had finished your coffee, found accommodation,

 4     divided up the men between the two units, and reported to the MUP staff

 5     in Pristina, only after completion of that would these men have been part

 6     of the SAJ unit; is that correct?

 7        A.   They would have been attached to the SAJ.  They would have not

 8     been SAJ's reserve force.  I've been trying to explain that the SAJ has

 9     never had a reserve force.  This SAJ, as it exists now even, in Belgrade

10     has no reserve force.  We don't have one.  Our staffing levels are

11     brought up based on the MUP reserve force numbers.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  On what basis did you act when you said that the

14     men should stay in the buses in Podujevo on the morning of the 28th?  Was

15     that just a social suggestion, or was that an order of a

16     lieutenant-colonel of the SAJ?

17        A.   I merely executed the order of my superior, the SAJ commander

18     pending the whole procedure being complete.  Before that, they were

19     supposed to stay on the buses so as to avoid any problems.  They did not

20     obey --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Was that an order of Commander Trajkovic that they

22     must stay on the buses, or is that something you decided?

23        A.   It was something I told them to do based on my own authority

24     awaiting the completion of the procedure.  Had that been done, everything

25     else I have been explaining would have taken place.  We would have

Page 13755

 1     informed the MUP staff that things were in order and that the reserve

 2     force members were attached to the SAJ and that as of that moment they

 3     were under our command.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, there's one matter I haven't asked.  Are you

 5     saying that there had been no arrangements made to accommodate this force

 6     of over 100 men in Podujevo before they arrived?

 7        A.   The entire SAJ command with both units in the afternoon on the

 8     27th arrived in the area of Podujevo.  We had difficulties finding

 9     accommodation ourselves.  Once they arrived they were supposed to stay on

10     the buses until such time when accommodation was found for them.  I have

11     explained why, we tried to find accommodation close by so that they

12     wouldn't disperse and that proper security measures were followed.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Simovic, I just have one inquiry to make.  Now,

15     in answer to Judge Parker awhile ago, you said that the first day, you

16     said that the first day that Commander Trajkovic directed you to find

17     Medic who was the contact person for the reserve men, the liaison?  Did

18     you tell that to Judge Parker awhile ago?

19        A.   I told His Honour that Commander Trajkovic told me that once I

20     was in Prolom Banja to seek out Mr. Medic and get in touch with him.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  He was the contact person?

22        A.   Yes, that is what I was told by my commander, Mr. Trajkovic.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Okay.  Now, I want to direct your mind to the

24     evidence you gave on that first day, and I shall read it for you:

25             "When I arrived in Prolom Banja, I was instructed by

Page 13756

 1     Mr. Trajkovic to look for a certain Boca, his name is Slobodan Medic.

 2     And that he was with this reserve force of the MUP but that in an oral

 3     agreement between him and Mr. Trajkovic he was in a way responsible for

 4     them, for this force."

 5             Do you recollect saying that on the first day?

 6        A.   If I did say so, then I have no reason to question what you have

 7     just said.  I wasn't trying to hide anything.  This is what I was told by

 8     Commander Trajkovic.

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  No, no, the question I'm asking you now, and I

10     would like to hear from you, when you say he was in a way responsible for

11     this force, what do you mean by in a way responsible for this force?

12        A.   I meant what I said, that he was the contact person.  Whether he

13     had any arrangements with the command, that is something I don't know.

14     But I didn't mean to suggest that he commanded them.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  I see.  When you say responsible, you mean he was

16     the contact person?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, that is what I had in mind.

18             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much, indeed.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Simovic, I have another question related to

20     the question of finding accommodation.  What did you have in mind when

21     you ordered your unit to find accommodation?  How could that happen?

22        A.   When I refer to finding accommodation, my men, that is to say,

23     active duty members of the SAJ, since the bombing campaign was already

24     underway, and given that many Serbs and Albanians who lived in Podujevo

25     had left because of the danger of being bombed seeking shelter with

Page 13757

 1     friends in safer areas, hence there were empty houses there.  I had in

 2     mind that they should find empty houses where there were no occupants at

 3     the same time trying to stay together in one location.  We couldn't

 4     accommodate all of them in Podujevo though because any MUP facility would

 5     have become a target, hence we could not accommodate them there.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was your estimation how many days you would

 7     stay in this area with your unit?

 8        A.   I really can't say.  It turned out that on the 28th, the rest of

 9     the unit left Podujevo.  One never knows.  That very much depends on the

10     subsequent task.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Unusually, the Chamber has asked a number of

13     questions of the witness.  Mr. Stamp, is there anything that you would

14     want to ask arising from what the Chamber has asked?

15             MR. STAMP:  No further questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Never after your questions, Your

18     Honour.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  You will be pleased to know, Mr. Simovic, that

20     that concludes the questions for you.  We would thank you for your

21     attendance and for your assistance, and you may, of course, now return to

22     your normal activities, and a Court Officer will assist you out.  Thank

23     you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you

25     for the patience you exhibited.

Page 13758

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             MR. STAMP:  If it pleases, Your Honours, there's the outstanding

 3     matter I'm just reminded of the document 0611.

 4             MR. PARKER:  Yes.

 5             MR. STAMP:  There had been an issue as to some of the pages and,

 6     in fact, there were some pages which did not belong, which have now been

 7     removed from the document in e-court, so I ask that it be received in

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  So this now is something that's done by

10     arrangement with Mr. Djurdjic?

11             MR. STAMP:  Well, we --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Not so.  I see he shake his head but very sternly.

13     So I will turn to Mr. Djurdjic.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We stopped when Mr. Stamp

15     introduced a document.  I objected then waiting further use of the

16     document, but Mr. Stamp did not put questions to the witness concerning

17     the document today.  First of all, that document has nothing to do with

18     the witness, and the witness cannot confirm any of its contents.  That

19     was the basis of my objection, and I believe it could not be admitted on

20     that basis.

21             The second thing is that the contents of the document as they are

22     in e-court are incorrect.  Only the first two are, whereas the other

23     three have nothing to do with the previous document.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

25             MR. STAMP:  In respect to the contents of the document, as in

Page 13759

 1     e-court now the contents I see are correct.  There was before that an

 2     attachment at the end of the document which did not belong to it and that

 3     has been removed.

 4             In respect to the admissibility of the document, the witness --

 5     although the witness had not seen the document before, this document is a

 6     document which on the face of it is a document from the Ministry of

 7     Internal Affairs of Serbia, the administration for organised crime, and

 8     bears the stamp of that ministry, and it relates to an official

 9     investigation of that ministry, and an attachment includes a list of the

10     Skorpion unit members.  This is an attachment that is referred to at the

11     end of the document, and if one looks at the list, it mentions names of

12     Skorpion members that have been mentioned in court.  It mentions

13     Mr. Slobodan Medic at number 1, Mr. Dragan Borojevic at number 14.  He is

14     the named accused in the indictment that is before the Court, another

15     exhibit, number 43, Dejan Demirovic, another Skorpion member whose name

16     the witness has testified to.  Zeljko Djukic at number 49.  At number 65

17     Dragan Miric [phoen].  Goran Stoparic at number 99 who testified before

18     the Court.  Sasa Cvjetan, number 110.  So the document not only purports

19     on its face and bears a stamp of the minister of interior, it has the

20     indicia -- many indicia that it's a reliable document, and it's an

21     official document from the ministry.  The contents of the document, as I

22     indicated in respect to that one attachment, is something that is in

23     evidence, or is corroborated by the evidence before the Court.

24             The other attachments would be the statement of Mr. Zoran Simovic

25     and the statement of Mr. Radislav Stalevic.  The statement of Mr. Simovic

Page 13760

 1     has already been received in evidence.  That is a previous statement that

 2     he gave to the investigators, the organisation that was involved in the

 3     investigation on behalf of the Prokuplje court in 2001, 2002.  And the

 4     other statement is a statement of Radislav Stalevic that we propose to

 5     tender separately as well in the course of that forthcoming evidence.

 6     Probably if the document is brought up, much of what I say would become

 7     quite clear.  0611.  06111.

 8             So the objection basically is the witness has not accepted some

 9     of what was put to him.  The main thing that was put to him was that the

10     unit was founded as a volunteer unit and that it was transferred to the

11     reserve formation of the MUP SAJ with the approval of General Djordjevic.

12     However, there are other elements of this document, which is supported by

13     the evidence, even the evidence of Mr. Simovic as to what happened at

14     Podujevo, and the document on its face is -- and based on the

15     representations I have, is an official document from the administration

16     for the prevention of organised crime.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  This is a July 2001 document; is that correct?

18             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honours.  It is the 11th of March, 2002.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             MR. STAMP:  I had indicated earlier that the date is on the

21     official, to the left of the official stamp in the original B/C/S

22     document but for some reason it was omitted from the translation.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And the nature of the document is a request from

24     the administration for the prevention of organised crime to the district

25     court, to a district court requesting an investigation.

Page 13761

 1             MR. STAMP:  It is a report from the administration for the

 2     prevention of organised crime to the Prokuplje district court to provide

 3     information to the court in respect to the investigation which the court

 4     was then conducting.  And these are investigations that the witness

 5     testified about and referred to.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  So this is the actual response of the ministry's

 7     organised crime administration?

 8             MR. STAMP:  Indeed it is.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  To a request from the court?

10             MR. STAMP:  From the court, yes.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, were you going to go to attachments or not?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  The only attachment on the document, if we look

13     at the third page of the document of the English, it refers to three

14     attachments, four attachments.  One of the attachments is the statement

15     of Zoran Simovic was used with the witness and was tendered separately.

16     The next attachment of statement of Radislav Stalevic, we propose,

17     depending on whether it becomes relevant for the purpose of

18     cross-examination, to tender that later on.  And so -- and there's a

19     third attachment of the statement of Srdan Manojlovic, which we don't

20     propose to tender at this stage but we tender if becomes relevant

21     depending on the cross-examination of the witness Stalevic.  So the only

22     other attachment is a list of Skorpion members, and that is attached to

23     the exhibit as it is now in court.  So if we move to the next page of the

24     document in both English and B/C/S, we would see the list of the Skorpion

25     members, and it lists in four pages 130 of them.  One could see that the

Page 13762

 1     first name on the list is Slobodan Medic.  Number 14 is Borojevic, as I

 2     indicated.  So this list is quite consistent with the testimony of the

 3     witness, that these were members of the group.

 4             I won't go through it, but there are names that the Court will

 5     quite readily recognise as members of the group.  One of them did testify

 6     before the Court.  So this again supports the authenticity of this

 7     document.  What had happened is that there was an additional document

 8     that had been attached to the exhibit which did not belong as part of the

 9     exhibit, and that additional document has now been removed, so the only

10     attachment on the exhibit as it is now is the list.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  And it is the Prosecution's submission that this

12     should be admitted for proof of its contents, not merely as proof of the

13     fact that there was such a report made?

14             MR. STAMP:  As proof of the fact of the report and as proof of

15     the contents.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             MR. STAMP:  Of course -- thank you very of, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Is there anything further, Mr. Djurdjic?

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I -- there is.  Overnight

20     without prior notification to the Defence, the document that is not

21     contained as an attachment was removed.  Second, apart from the first

22     page of the document, and none of it is confirmed by the witness, the

23     list that follows what Mr. Stamp is showing now has not been shown to the

24     witness at all, and he made no comment at all.  All the comments he made

25     were to the effect that he doesn't know what they were doing and how they

Page 13763

 1     were doing it.  That document has been known to the Prosecution for a

 2     long time.  There have been other witnesses to whom this document would

 3     have been familiar.

 4             On the other hand, if there had been any mention of this at the

 5     outset, that is at the beginning of today's session, we have another

 6     document of this kind that is regularly on the 65 ter list under the

 7     number 05220, it contains certain information that this document does

 8     not, and I would have presented it.  And I would have had questions to

 9     put to the witness about it.  If the intention is to admit the document

10     through this witness, I would have certainly had questions.  But since

11     the witness knows nothing about this document, he was unable to confirm

12     anything, and now Mr. Stamp is mentioning a list that has not been shown

13     to the witness at all.  As for what was shown, the witness said I have no

14     idea about this.

15             So if the witness is still here and if you intend to have the

16     document admitted, then I would kindly ask you to bring the witness back

17     to let me show him the document that I have that contains very relevant

18     points, the contents is almost the same but a bit more complete.

19             However, this document that the Prosecution introduced

20     subsequently, 0611, I don't see any reason why they are trying to have it

21     admitted now.  We have a similar document in a different version.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  In the view of the Chamber, Mr. Stamp, the

25     document should not be received.  The document may be an official

Page 13764

 1     document, and that is it's apparent condition, but no witness has been

 2     able to speak to the reliability or truth of the contents of the

 3     document, and no witness has spoken about the list and the second and

 4     third statements, which are said to be attachments to it, and as you have

 5     indicated, the other attached statement is separately and properly

 6     already an exhibit.  So in the Chamber's view, it would not be in the

 7     interest of justice in this case to receive this document.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Well, Your Honours.  Could it be marked nonetheless?

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It certainly can be marked for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01596 marked

11     for identification.

12             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  In view of the time, that seems a convenient

14     moment for the break.

15             MR. STAMP:  It is, Your Honours.  But there's another thing that

16     was -- I was a little bit remiss.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Have you got another procedural matter?

18             MR. STAMP:  A very important procedural matter, Your Honour.  I

19     should have introduced to the court Ms. Jessica Jones, who is assisting

20     the Prosecution with these two witnesses.  I was a little bit negligent

21     earlier.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  We also welcome Ms. Jones, yes.

23             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             MR. PARKER:  We will have the adjournment now and resume just

25     before 1.00.

Page 13765

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic, your next witness is.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Stalevic, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Will you please read aloud the affirmation that's

10     shown to you now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, I think Mr. Popovic has some questions for

16     you.

17             Mr. Popovic.

18             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           WITNESS:  RADISLAV STALEVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:

22        Q.   Mr. Stalevic, good afternoon.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   Mr. Stalevic, before we begin with the examination, I will ask

25     you since we both speak the same language to hear out each of my

Page 13766

 1     questions and then only begin with your answer to facilitate the work of

 2     the interpreters.

 3             Can you tell us your name?  Your full name.

 4        A.   My name is Radislav Stalevic.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When were you born and where?

 6        A.   I was born on the 20th October, 1961 in Babici village, Pec

 7     municipality in Kosovo and Metohija.

 8        Q.   Are you a member of the Ministry of the Interior, and if so,

 9     since when?

10        A.   I've been a member of the Ministry of the Interior since 1981

11     when I began to work there.

12        Q.   Could you tell us briefly about the positions you occupied within

13     the Ministry of the Interior in your career?

14        A.   When I finished primary school, I went to the secondary school of

15     Internal Affairs in Vucitrn, and after graduating, I began to work as a

16     police officer in OUP, the police department of Djakovica.  Two months

17     later in 1981, I transferred to the unit for special operations in the

18     provincial secretariat of Kosovo and Metohija, which was just formed.  I

19     worked as a police officer until 1983 and then at the proposal of my

20     superior officers, I was sent to the military academy for land forces in

21     Belgrade.

22             I graduated from that academy in 1987 and began to work as an

23     instructor in the school for Internal Affairs in Vucitrn.  One year later

24     in 1988, I was transferred from the secondary school of Internal Affairs,

25     I was re-assigned, in fact, to the unit in which I worked before the

Page 13767

 1     school, that is the unit for special operations of the provincial

 2     secretariat for Internal Affairs as a commander.  As the commander.

 3             Until 1990, or rather, 1992, I was commander of this unit, and

 4     when -- then that unit was taken over by the republic secretariat for

 5     Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia.  I was then appointed

 6     commander of the special anti-terrorist unit, and that unit was based in

 7     Pristina.  I remained commander of that unit until 2000.

 8             After year 2000, I was appointed deputy commander of the special

 9     anti-terrorist unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, the SAJ

10     Belgrade.  In 2001, I moved to a gendarmerie unit, and I was assigned as

11     assistant commander of the gendarmerie of the MUP.  In 2004 I was

12     assigned to the newly established detachment of the gendarmerie of Novi

13     Sad within the Ministry of the Interior, and I'm still there.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stalevic.  I'd like to go into more detail about

15     your positions and assignments in 1998 and 1999.

16        A.   In 1998 and 1999, I was commander of the special anti-terrorist

17     unit based in Pristina.  I was the commander of that special unit.

18        Q.   Before we go further into the organisation of the special

19     anti-terrorist unit, I would like you to briefly describe when this unit

20     was established, how it was established, and how it developed to the best

21     of your knowledge.

22        A.   This special anti-terrorist unit, SAJ, was established in 1992 as

23     a special unit for anti-terrorism.  It had its base, its seat, and the

24     command of the special anti-terrorist units.  That command was in

25     Belgrade at the Ministry of the Interior.  And the commander at this

Page 13768

 1     command was Zivko Trajkovic at the time.

 2        Q.   Before you continue with that answer, you told us you were the

 3     commander of the unit of the provincial secretariat which was taken over

 4     in 1992 by the Ministry of the Interior.  Can you clarify that a bit?

 5        A.   Yes, I said already that I began to work as a police officer in a

 6     special unit, in fact, a unit for special operations which belonged at

 7     the time to the province secretariat.  And after finishing the school

 8     that I mentioned, I was appointed commander of that unit in 1998.  More

 9     exactly, on the 14th of June, 1998, when I received my letter of

10     appointment from the then-provincial secretary Rrahman Morina.

11        Q.   Which year was that?

12        A.   1988.  The 14th of June, 1988.  That was the day when I received

13     my letter of appointment and began to work.  Later on that unit for

14     special operations did not function within the MUP.  It was a provincial

15     province unit.  In 1990 when the police officers, and there were

16     Albanians, Montenegrins and Croats, et cetera, when all of them or most

17     of them left the unit in 1990, the unit continued to operate with a

18     smaller number in 1992.  It was still at that time the unit of the

19     province secretariat, and in 1992, it became part of the republic

20     secretariat of Internal Affairs.  It became part of special

21     anti-terrorist units.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stalevic.

23             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] To clarify a bit further the mode

24     of operation of this unit, I'd like to call D401.

25        Q.   This document will appear on your screen, and I will put to you

Page 13769

 1     you some questions related to the document.

 2             Mr. Stalevic, this document is dated 5 April 1996.  It's a

 3     decision establishing special anti-terrorist units adopted by the

 4     then-minister Zoran Sokolovic.  In item 1 of this decision, it says that

 5     special anti-terrorist units are hereby established as separate units of

 6     the public security sector of the Ministry of the Interior of the

 7     Republic of Serbia with headquarters in Belgrade, Novi Sad, and Pristina.

 8     Could you give us a brief comment.

 9        A.   I can't see much on the screen.  I don't know if we could make

10     the letters larger.  Yes, I can see, paragraph 1, that special

11     anti-terrorist units are established with headquarters in Belgrade, Novi

12     Sad, and Pristina.

13        Q.   Were there indeed units in Belgrade, Novi Sad, and Pristina?

14        A.   Yes, these three units existed.  One in Novi Sad, one in

15     Pristina, one in Belgrade.

16        Q.   You were commander of which one?

17        A.   As I said earlier, I was commander of the special anti-terrorist

18     unit in Pristina.

19        Q.   Who is the commander of the entire special anti-terrorist unit in

20     1998 and 1999?

21        A.   The commander of the special anti-terrorist unit in 1998 and 1999

22     and earlier was Zivko Trajkovic.

23        Q.   How many men did the SAJ Pristina number?

24        A.   The SAJ had around 100 men.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how many members the other two units, the

Page 13770

 1     one in Belgrade and the one in Pristina had?  You can give us a rough

 2     estimate.

 3        A.   We had approximately the same number of men, about 100 men.  The

 4     Belgrade, the Novi Sad, and Pristina units.

 5        Q.   So how many men in total did the entire special anti-terrorist

 6     unit have?

 7        A.   Around 300.  100 per unit.

 8        Q.   And the command of the entire special anti-terrorist unit was

 9     where?

10        A.   The command was in Belgrade in the Prince Milos Street where the

11     Ministry of the Interior building is as well, and among these 300 men, we

12     also had each one deputy commander, one analyst, and a driver.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now look at paragraph 2 of this decision.  I

14     don't want to read it, it's a long paragraph.  You can read it for

15     yourself.  Those are the tasks and duties of the special anti-terrorist

16     units.  Just tell us whether they are correctly listed, whether these

17     were indeed the duties of special anti-terrorist units?

18        A.   Yes, these were the tasks and duties of special anti-terrorist

19     units.

20        Q.   Thank you.  How was a special anti-terrorist unit organised?

21     What did it have within its complement that is stipulated in paragraph 3,

22     but I suppose you can describe it briefly?

23        A.   My special anti-terrorist unit, SAJ Pristina, had a command and

24     three platoons.  In the command of each unit, there was a command deputy,

25     assistants, the record keeper, a physician, and a driver.  There were

Page 13771

 1     also platoons.  The 1st Platoon in the SAJ was a close quarter combat

 2     platoon, and the 2nd Platoon was a support platoon.  The 1st Platoon had

 3     30 men, the 2nd also around 30 men.  And the 3rd Platoon was a security

 4     platoon practically a technical service, so the total number was 100, 105

 5     men.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, turn to the next page of the document, please,

 7     in both versions.  And I'll ask you, Mr. Stalevic, to look at paragraph

 8     7.  Paragraph 7 reads:

 9             "With the adoption of this decision, the decision of the Ministry

10     of the Interior number 1752/92 of 30th June, 1992, and DT 01 number

11     4185/93 of 1st January, 1994, I rendered null and void."

12             Tell me, did these decisions mentioned here have any relevance to

13     the special anti-terrorist units, and what?

14        A.   Yes, these decisions were in place and the special anti-terrorist

15     unit existed in 1992 and the decisions made in 1992 were rendered null

16     and void when the new decision was made in 1996.

17        Q.   All right.  What were your powers as the commander of the special

18     anti-terrorist unit Pristina?

19        A.   What do you mean by "powers", competencies?

20        Q.   What were your powers regarding this SAJ Pristina?

21        A.   I was the commander of that unit, the SAJ Pristina unit.  I

22     conducted training for police officers in that unit.  I trained,

23     commanded, and controlled them in all our duties and tasks.

24        Q.   Who decides about the engagement, the employment of a special

25     anti-terrorist unit?

Page 13772

 1        A.   Decisions about the employment of a special anti-terrorist unit

 2     are made by the minister of the interior.

 3        Q.   And who was your direct superior who issued you with orders in

 4     1998 and 1999?

 5        A.   In 1998 and 1999 I and my unit were directly subordinated to

 6     Commander Zivko Trajkovic who issued me with orders.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know who gave orders to Zivko Trajkovic

 8     regarding anti-terrorist actions that the unit carried out in Kosovo and

 9     Metohija in 1999?

10        A.   I do know.  I do know about 1999.  Commander Trajkovic received

11     his orders for the staff for the combat against terrorism of the province

12     of Kosovo and Metohija, that was the MUP staff.

13        Q.   You mentioned the staff for combat against terrorism in Kosovo

14     and Metohija.  Where do you get your knowledge about the activities of

15     that staff in 1999?

16        A.   Sometime in the latter half of 1998 Commander Trajkovic came to

17     my base, the base where we were stationed, and that was Ajvalija and

18     informed me that the ministry had set up a staff, a MUP staff for combat

19     against terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija, and he informed me that he

20     learned the staff was headed by Sreten Lukic and David Gajic.  He too was

21     a member of the staff, and Milorad Legija was the commander of the unit

22     for special operations.  Milorad Lukovic, also known as Legija.

23        Q.   So did Zivko Trajkovic specifically receive orders for

24     anti-special operations from the MUP staff for Kosovo and Metohija?

25        A.   Yes, he did.

Page 13773

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that your unit was directly

 2     subordinated to the MUP staff in Kosovo and Metohija when executing

 3     anti-terrorist operations in Kosovo?

 4        A.   At that time our unit was subordinated to the staff for

 5     combatting terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija.

 6        Q.   When you say it was subordinated to it, could you please clarify.

 7     First of all, do you know in what way Zivko Trajkovic received his orders

 8     from the staff for combatting terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija?

 9        A.   Zivko Trajkovic was a member of the staff.  Whenever he returned

10     from the staff to the command in Ajvalija, he brought excerpts from

11     topographic maps, and he would acquaint me and Simovic with the axes and

12     movements necessary to be made in the course of the operations.

13        Q.   Was such a topographic map excerpt the only thing you could see

14     on such occasions?

15        A.   As I said, I was shown only the topographic maps excerpts.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how Trajkovic received such excerpts, if

17     you know, of course?

18        A.   Such excerpts needed to implement operations were given to

19     Trajkovic directly.  Or someone would bring them from the staff to him.

20     In other situations he could also send a courier to pick up such an

21     excerpt from the staff.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Stalevic, after operations were completed, did

23     you submit reports, and if so, to whom?

24        A.   After operations were complete, we always conducted analyses with

25     our commander Mr. Trajkovic.  On such occasions we pointed out any

Page 13774

 1     problems we had in the course of the operations, and then he, in turn,

 2     informed the MUP staff for combatting terrorism in Pristina about that.

 3        Q.   In order to provide a more comprehensive answer, did you submit

 4     any written reports to Commander Trajkovic concerning your operations?

 5        A.   No, I did not.  We only conducted analyses, and the commander

 6     submitted reports to the MUP of Serbia staff in Kosovo.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did Commander Trajkovic take part in your operations?

 8        A.   Commander Trajkovic participated basically in all of the

 9     operations.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is there a difference in organisational terms between

11     the SAJ as it existed in 1998 and 1999?

12        A.   Yes, there was a difference.  In 1998 in the special

13     anti-terrorist units of the Ministry of the Interior, well, there were

14     three such units; the one in Novi Sad, the one in Belgrade, and the one

15     in Pristina.  Towards the end of 1998, the minister of the interior, the

16     then-minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic, disbanded the SAJ unit of Novi Sad,

17     hence the difference.  Up to that point in 1998 towards the end, we had

18     had three SAJ units with their seats in Novi Sad, Pristina, and Belgrade,

19     and upon disbandment of the third, we were left with only two, the ones

20     in Pristina and Belgrade.

21        Q.   Concerning the number of unit members, what did that mean in

22     terms of overall numbers?  How many members were there in early 1999?

23        A.   As I've said already, all the three units were approximately

24     equally strong.  When the third unit was disbanded, we had one-third of

25     the men of special policemen less in relation to 1998, which

Page 13775

 1     significantly decreased our operational ability, the ability of the SAJ.

 2        Q.   To be precise in terms of numbers, how many members of the SAJ

 3     were there in 1999?

 4        A.   In 1998 we had a number of casualties, those wounded and killed.

 5     The number was between 50 and 60.  Similar to the number of the unit of

 6     the Belgrade unit.

 7        Q.   How many approximately would that be?

 8        A.   Well, we had between 100 and 110 that year.

 9        Q.   As opposed to the 300 back in 1998?

10        A.   In 1998 there had been 300.  And when that unit was disbanded,

11     the two units were left with about 100 men each in 1998, which

12     significantly decreased our operational ability.

13        Q.   When speaking of those remaining in early 1999, were you able to

14     efficiently meet the requirements posed before you with the number of men

15     you were left with?

16        A.   Given that our operational ability decreased, we had great

17     difficulty in responding to the requirements and tasks put before us in

18     1999.

19        Q.   Did you have any reservists in your SAJ unit?

20        A.   No.  An SAJ unit never had its reserve force.  People are

21     selected individually to the SAJ.  They are cherry-picked from schools

22     and active-duty personnel, and we never had a reserve force as a unit.

23     We never had any reserve force of the SAJ since it was an elite unit, and

24     as such, it could not have reservists.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were any additional tasks issued to the SAJ in early

Page 13776

 1     1999?  Did you have any such information, or were you informed about it,

 2     were you ordered to do something to that effect?

 3        A.   In early March at one of the meetings I attended alongside

 4     Simovic, Zivko Trajkovic informed us that he had attended a meeting in

 5     mid-February when Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic attended as well.  He required

 6     that the SAJ be more engaged and more involved because by that time the

 7     NATO aggression was looming.  He informed us that given -- that our

 8     operational ability was reduced, we were supposed to come up with a

 9     reserve force of the MUP.

10        Q.   Thank you.  When Zivko Trajkovic informed you of the need of this

11     greater engagement, did he also propose how to deal with the situation

12     especially in view of the fact of the number of people you had?

13        A.   At that meeting, he told us that he would see to it that a

14     reserve force be found.  Indeed, later on he told us that he had spoken

15     to Mrgud whom he had known from Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Sermia [as

16     interpreted] about that reserve force.  Apparently Mrgud told him he knew

17     of the people who could make part of that MUP reserve force.

18             After that, Trajkovic informed the chief of the sector about the

19     fact that he located a number of reservists who could be made part of the

20     unit.  He also said that Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic, the sector chief, told

21     him that the minister's decision still awaited on the issue of joining

22     the MUP by the reserve force.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You said this was in early March.  What was otherwise

24     regular length of time one would need to become a member of the SAJ, say,

25     in peacetime?

Page 13777

 1        A.   As I've already said, I believe, those people were screened.  We

 2     had very good co-operation with the interior high school in Sremska

 3     Kamenica and the best and ablest men were chosen from that high school.

 4     They were either assigned to various secretariats and SUPs, and then in

 5     time we would test them as the best.  We would test their physical

 6     prowess and carry out medical checks to have them selected.  The process

 7     lasted quite a while, but at that point in time, we could not embark such

 8     a process in view of the looming NATO aggression.  It was expected, not

 9     necessarily looming, but we believed it would take place nonetheless.

10        Q.   You said that he had spoken with someone named Mrgud who told him

11     he knew of some men who could comprise a reserve force of the MUP.  Did

12     Zivko Trajkovic tell you whether he personally knew any of those people

13     Mrgud referred to?

14        A.   In Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Sermia [as interpreted] in

15     1992, Trajkovic was there in the area.  He knew Mrgud as well as a number

16     of other people, probably some of those who were to be included into the

17     reserve force.

18             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, we seem

19     to have two minutes left, and I'm about to embark upon a lengthy topic.

20     Do you think it would be better to stop now, otherwise I can go on, if

21     you deem it necessary?

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll adjourn now, Mr. Popovic.  We

23     resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.  A Court Officer will assist you during

24     the break.  We resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 13778

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

 3                           April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.