1 DAY 6 Wednesday, 4th February 1998
2 (9.15 am)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Morning, may I ask the
4 Registrar to call out the case number, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a,
6 Prosecutor versus Dokmanovic.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, and the
8 appearances, please?
9 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name
10 is Niemann and I appear with my colleague Mr. Williamson
11 for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Defence counsel?
13 MR. FILA: Good morning your Honours. I am
14 Toma Fila appearing together with colleague Lopicic and
16 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the accused
17 whether he can hear me. Can you? Thank you. All right.
18 I will ask the Prosecutor whether he can call the first
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, before calling
21 the first witness I have a couple of preliminary
22 matters. Perhaps we can address those.
23 In relation to the discussions we have had in
24 the last couple of days, I have prepared a revised
25 witness list which indicates some additional witnesses
1 that we would call this week, and I can supply that to
2 the court at this time.
3 We have included four additional witnesses,
4 which I am afraid is the maximum number that we would
5 have available for this week. There are a number of
6 reasons for this, but apparently the Victims and Witnesses
7 Unit has some constraints on the number of witnesses
8 that they can accommodate at any one time, for security
9 reasons and just logistics. In order to get witnesses
10 here, it requires almost a week's advance notice
11 because we have to make application to the Dutch
12 government to get visas for persons, we have to make
13 travel arrangements and in most cases witnesses have to
14 arrange to take time off work.
15 So, we have proceeded at a pace which is much
16 faster than any other trial up until now, and even we
17 anticipated somewhat of a quicker pace and we have had
18 as many witnesses here as we could get but I think that
19 this is all that we would have available for this week.
20 So I think this will take us through Friday
21 but it may not go until 5 o'clock on Friday.
22 Additionally, I am providing to the court
23 a brief summary of the subject matter of the testimony
24 of the witnesses who have not provided witness
25 statements, and these are five witnesses that we have
1 discussed in the last couple of days. All of these are
2 family members of victims from Ovcara and these are the
3 statements of Vladimir Veber, Katica Zera, and Irina
4 Kacic which I believe was the ones that you had not
5 received statements for.
6 Finally, your Honours, I am providing to the
7 court a brief supplementary statement of Emil Cakalic
8 which was taken in April of 1996. When the statements
9 were provided to the Defence and to the Trial Chamber
10 the original statement of Cakalic was provided but this
11 supplemental statement was inadvertently omitted.
12 I discovered this error yesterday when I began
13 reviewing his file in preparation for his testimony. As
14 soon as I discovered this error I provided a copy to
15 the Defence in English and I immediately submitted it
16 for translation which will be completed at
17 approximately 10 am this morning. The statement, as
18 I indicated, is very brief, it is approximately two
19 pages of text and it is for the witness Emil Cakalic
20 who is anticipated to testify tomorrow and I believe
21 the Defence would like that time so that they have an
22 opportunity to review the statement and prepare for it
23 before he does testify.
24 The other two documents I have already
25 provided to the Defence, but I can now provide all of
1 these items to the Chamber.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. (Handed).
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the
5 witness to make the solemn declaration?
6 WITNESS P (sworn)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
8 May I ask the Prosecutor whether the
9 protection of this particular witness also includes the
10 voice distortion?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, it does not, your
12 Honour. It is image alteration and just before the
13 witness testified he had asked that he be able to use
14 a pseudonym in relation to his testimony, so I would
15 refer to him as Witness P, and at this time I would
16 like for him to review this document.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we start, may I ask
18 the Prosecutor, on behalf of the court, whether,
19 generally speaking, he can refrain from asking leading
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Certainly.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON
24 Q. Sir, I would like for to you review this
25 piece of paper I have just handed you and, without
1 saying the name, can you tell me, is that your correct
2 name? You have to answer orally.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would mark
5 this as Prosecutor's exhibit...
6 THE REGISTRAR: 26.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: ... 26, and provide that to
8 the court and the Defence and this would be submitted
9 under seal.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I presume the
11 Defence counsel does not object to...
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness P, do you recall at
13 some point in 1995 speaking with an investigator from
14 the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And on that occasion did you give a statement
17 to that Prosecutor which was taken in the English
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was that statement read back to you in
21 Croatian by a translator?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would like to show the witness this exhibit
24 now, please, which we will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit
25 27. Do you recognise this document?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And is that your signature that appears on
3 the document?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would like to
6 offer this, tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 27.
7 Statement of Witness P, and to tender this under seal.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection from the
9 Defence counsel?
10 MR. FILA: No objection.
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Sir, can you tell the court
12 where you are from?
13 A. I am from Vukovar.
14 Q. And did you live your whole life in Vukovar?
15 A. Yes. Until the war, until 1991.
16 Q. And were you educated there as well?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. When did you complete your secondary school
19 studies in Vukovar?
20 A. I completed my secondary school on 19th June
22 Q. Going back a little bit, were things
23 relatively peaceful in Vukovar in the early part of
25 A. Until the end of April I did not notice
1 anything. Returning from the Easter holidays we were
2 supposed to take some food to Borovo Selo and we were
3 intercepted on the way by some armed men and they would
4 not let us pass. A few days after that the incident
5 occurred in Borovo Selo on 2nd May, and after that the
6 situation became very tense.
7 Q. Are you aware of what happened on 2nd May in
8 Borovo Selo?
9 A. Personally I learned from the media, but
10 I heard the story going around town as to what had
11 happened, and tension was extreme.
12 Q. You indicated that after that tension
13 increased even more in the area. Are you aware of any
14 other incidents which were an indication of the
15 increasing tension?
16 A. The situation was rather tense, and it
17 reached a peak as far as I can remember on -- around
18 26th June in a cafe bar close to my house, two members
19 of the guards were killed. They did not do anything.
20 They just came to have a drink and two men walked in
21 and simply killed them.
22 Q. When you say, "two members of the guards",
23 what guards are you talking about?
24 A. The Croatian guards wearing camouflage
25 uniforms and the insignia of the Croatian army.
1 Q. And do you know who killed them?
2 A. I do. The owner of the house in which the
3 cafe bar was situated, Slobodan Jurisic is his name,
4 and he was accompanied by Mike Stojkovic.
5 Q. To your knowledge were Mr. Jurisic and
6 Stojkovic Serbs?
7 A. Yes. They are.
8 Q. As the summer wore on, did you see any
9 decrease in tension, or did it get worse?
10 A. Until the 10th July when I left Vukovar, one
11 could increasingly frequently hear fire during the
12 night. The town was virtually deserted. People had left
13 either on holiday or they had fled, and then on
14 10th July I left.
15 Q. What was the reason that you left in July?
16 A. I simply went on my summer holidays, as I did
17 every year. I went to stay with relatives in Bjelovar.
18 Q. You indicated that people had left either on
19 holiday or they had fled. What were they fleeing from?
20 A. I do not know. Probably they were afraid
21 because of the incidents, so they left. They did not
22 move out. They simply went away.
23 Q. To your knowledge were people being forced to
24 leave or were they doing this of their own accord?
25 A. No. Simply people were afraid. When somebody
1 knows that somebody was killed in a cafe bar in cold
2 blood, then that probably causes fear among people.
3 Q. Did this include Croats as well as Serbs?
4 A. The Croats were mostly going on summer
5 holidays, whereas the Serbs had their stories about
6 this. They started leaving already at the beginning of
7 May. They went to Serbia in an organised fashion. They
8 would go for three days and then they would come back,
9 so this became a farce so with my friends, Serbs that
10 I socialised with, I knew that when they left they
11 would be back soon, and they would arrange it that this
12 visit should coincide with the time that Savezda, the
13 football club had its matches in Belgrade.
14 Q. You indicated that you went to Bjelovar on
15 10th July. Did you go back to Vukovar at some later
16 point in the summer?
17 A. On 18th August I went back to Vukovar.
18 Q. Had the situation changed any since the time
19 that you had left in July?
20 A. From 18th until 24th it was relatively
21 peaceful. Only one could hear sporadic shooting, as
22 before. However, in town, there were even less people.
23 Q. You mentioned the 24th August. What happened
25 A. On 24th and onwards I was in the basement
1 because the shelling started. Planes were bombing the
2 town, and the shells were falling and it was no longer
3 safe outside the cellar.
4 Q. What was the frequency of the shelling or the
5 air attacks?
6 A. In those days in comparison with what
7 happened later, it was not very high, the frequency,
8 but it was occasional, and actually that is even worse
9 because it surprises you. One relaxes and then suddenly
10 a couple of shells are fired and people get killed.
11 Q. You said that you had gone into the cellar
12 when this started. Where was the cellar located?
13 A. In the basement of my house.
14 Q. And did you remain at your house throughout
15 this period?
16 A. I left my house on 15th or
17 16th September when the Serbs and the army reached
18 about 100-200 metres from my house.
19 Q. Up until that time who had you been with in
20 the house, if anyone?
21 A. I was in the basement with my mother and
23 Q. When you left the house, where did you go?
24 A. I went to the nuclear shelter in the district
25 of Olajnica.
1 Q. Did you join in the defence of the city?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Why?
4 A. I simply felt the need to join in the defence
5 of my city, and the main reason was the large number of
6 civilians that nobody could take care of.
7 Q. Did you consider yourself an Ustasha?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did the other men who were defending the town
10 appear to you to be Ustasha?
11 A. No. Just Croatian soldiers defending their
12 city and their territory.
13 Q. Were there Serbs among the defenders, to your
15 A. Yes there were, quite a number.
16 Q. Were most of the defenders local people?
17 A. Most of them, yes.
18 Q. What were your duties or responsibilities
19 during the battle?
20 A. To get supplies of food, water, to transport
21 the wounded, to keep watch duty in this area, because
22 we had a large number of civilians. We had four water
23 cisterns with 1,000 litres of water each, so we would
24 transport food from one place to another, then fuel
25 wood for cooking.
1 Q. Where were you located most of the time
2 during the battle?
3 A. Our base was the nuclear shelter in Olajnica
4 and from there we went on assignment.
5 Q. Did you carry a weapon during this time?
6 A. Yes. When we kept guard duty, we were armed.
7 Q. And did you remain at Olajnica throughout the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As the battle was coming to an end in
11 November did you go someplace else?
12 A. I stayed in Olajnica until 19th November in
13 the morning when a woman with a white flag came and
14 said that, who wanted to go towards the Serbs and the
15 army should go to the piazza, the market, and those who
16 wanted to go to Croatia should go to the hospital. So
17 I went towards the hospital, and there were very many
18 civilians there. Only a couple of us men, so that we
19 drove them to the hospital.
20 Q. Did your mother go there as well?
21 A. No, my mother was wounded on 8th November
22 when she was going to give her blood at the hospital so
23 that she was in hospital at the time, undergoing
25 Q. What were the circumstances under which she
1 was wounded?
2 A. A lady from the hospital came and said that
3 they needed a lot of blood because they had many
4 wounded and she was looking for donators, so we got
5 into a car, a very small car. It is a Fica, as we call
6 it, a small Fiat. There were five of us and we heard
7 firing from the hill behind Olajnica, an area we called
8 Hollywood. My mother was the only one to be wounded on
9 that occasion in the car. So we just speeded up and
10 drove to the hospital. She was immediately operated --
11 the bullet was taken out. It was a 7.62 calibre bullet.
12 That is how she was wounded.
13 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit on what the
14 situation was at the hospital when you arrived there on
16 A. On the 19th when we arrived at the hospital,
17 according to my estimate, there were more than 1,000
18 civilians. I went to see my mother. She was lying
19 there, and all these wounded and civilians and doctors
20 were gathered there. They were standing on the steps
21 and in the ground floor. It was very crowded.
22 Q. When you arrived at the hospital on 19th, to
23 your knowledge was the JNA already there?
24 A. I arrived, I only saw one soldier standing
25 there, but I went inside immediately to see my mother.
1 So that I did not see them. But later on, around 1 or 2
2 in the afternoon, the rumour spread that some JNA
3 officers had come.
4 Q. Did you see these officers personally at that
6 A. On 19th? No. I did not see any in person.
7 Q. During the night between 19th and 20th, what
8 was going on in the hospital?
9 A. In the evening of 19th some Chetniks barged
10 in. Among them was one who was looking for his brother.
11 This was on 19th at night and I heard some shots being
12 fired around the hospital. Our people were sitting on
13 chairs, sleeping, talking and so on.
14 Q. Where were you throughout that night?
15 (9:45 am)
16 A. I spent the night either talking to my mother
17 or a couple of metres away from her, sitting on a chair
18 and drowsing.
19 Q. On the morning of 20th, what happened at the
21 A. On 20th in the morning some JNA officers came
22 in and called out names from a list to be taken out.
23 There was an officer with a bag, and he stuck a biro
24 into the wound of one of the soldiers who was wounded
25 in the leg so he cried out in pain and then he was
1 taken out as well. When they were taken out they said
2 that all the men from 16-60 and all those who were
3 mobile, including the wounded with crutches, had to go
5 When we got out we stood up against the wall,
6 we formed two lines against the wall and Sljivancanin
7 spoke to us, saying that none of this should have
8 happened. We were searched, I was searched three
9 times, and then we boarded the buses.
10 Q. At this time, I would like to show the
11 witness an item which has previously been marked
12 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 8, admitted as Prosecutor's
13 Exhibit 8.
14 If you can, I would like for him to display
15 this on the ELMO, please.
16 If you could turn to the second photograph,
17 do you recognise this photograph?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And using the projector which is to your
20 right side, if you can point out any items which may be
21 relevant to what you have testified about in regard to
22 where you were taken out of the hospital?
23 A. We came in this side. This is -- and then we
24 were lined up against this wall, Sljivancanin was
25 standing here somewhere, next to him was Radic, and
1 then the buses were parked here in this street,
2 Gunduliceva Street. (Indicated).
3 Q. Now, if you would turn to the second
4 photograph from the rear, do you recognise this
6 A. Yes. That is the area we were led to. I was
7 standing somewhere here. Sljivancanin was here, and
8 Radic here, and all this was full of soldiers and
9 Chetniks, and we were searched here, and then we went
10 over there to climb the buses. (Indicated).
11 Q. When you use the term, "Chetniks", what are
12 you referring to?
13 A. Well, they have mixed uniforms, they have
14 beards, they carry the insignia either of the White
15 Eagles, Kokades, and fur hats, those are the Chetniks.
16 Q. Do people that you refer to as, "Chetniks",
17 have a certain political ideology?
18 A. Yes. Nationalists. They are Serb nationalists
19 and extremists.
20 Q. Is this a term that you use to refer to all
22 A. No, under no circumstances.
23 Q. Now, when you were outside and you were made
24 to assemble along this wall, what happened?
25 A. Sljivancanin spoke to us, saying that we
1 should not have done this and that. He issued orders to
2 Captain Radic, and then he carried out those orders, or
3 rather passed them on to soldiers who were searching
4 us. We were on the right-hand side, and the women were
5 on the left.
6 Q. And how was that search conducted?
7 A. We were searched thoroughly. Any hard object
8 was taken away, even pens and pencils. Anything that
9 was hard was taken away from us.
10 Q. Who was conducting the searches?
11 A. JNA soldiers were searching us.
12 Q. Were they armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you or the other men that were assembled
15 in this driveway armed?
16 A. No. We were all wearing civilian clothes and
17 without any weapons.
18 Q. Among this group of people that were out
19 there, were there wounded?
20 A. Yes. There were, quite a number.
21 Q. Were there members of the hospital staff?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you indicated that the buses were
24 located on Gunduliceva Street. How many buses did you
25 see there?
1 A. I am sure that there were five. I am not sure
2 about the sixth.
3 Q. How did you come to get on the bus? What were
4 the circumstances under which you did that?
5 A. After having been searched we got on the
7 Q. Were you told to get on the buses?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Were you directed to any particular bus or
10 just told to get on the buses in general?
11 A. No. They told each one of us which bus we
12 should get on to.
13 Q. And which bus did you get on?
14 A. I think it was the one but last and I went to
15 the back. I got in at the back door.
16 Q. Can you describe the buses at all?
17 A. They were ordinary buses. They were all
18 coloured in olive green.
19 Q. Did they appear to be civilian buses to you?
20 A. No, military buses. Military, military buses.
21 Q. Did you know any other persons that were on
22 the bus with you?
23 A. I knew quite a few of them.
24 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those
1 A. In my bus there was Franjo Nadj, Mikalic,
2 there were a number of Simunovics, and so on. I did not
3 know many people by name, but rather by sight.
4 Q. Was there a guard on the bus?
5 A. Yes, there was a driver and a JNA soldier
6 under arms as a guard.
7 Q. Where did the buses go from the hospital?
8 A. They passed the market across the bridge to
9 the children's infirmary, then in Kras Street, then
10 straight to the fairground, to the JNA barracks.
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would request
12 that we show a video to the witness which is -- excuse
13 me just a moment, your Honour. (Pause).
14 Your Honour, I do not believe that this has
15 previously been tendered. It is the video which was
16 shown in part during Mr. Niemann's opening statement. It
17 is the videotape which is entitled, "Vukovar, Ovcara
18 incident", and which tracks the route from the
19 hospital. So I would like to show that at this time.
20 The portion from the hospital to the JNA barracks, if
21 we can.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? Thank you.
23 (Video played)
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness P, if you can, as
25 this tape is playing just describe for the court what
1 you are viewing on your screen.
2 A. Very well.
3 Q. I believe this is the incorrect portion. If
4 we can... it would be at the very beginning of the
6 How long did you wait on the buses before
7 leaving the hospital after you got on?
8 A. About half an hour. In fact, we were waiting
9 for these five or six buses to be filled. So that
10 everybody would be searched and then board the bus.
11 Q. Once you got on the buses, did anything
12 happen to you at the hospital before you left?
13 A. No. As far as I could see they only searched
14 people and took them to the buses.
15 Q. Okay. At this time I believe the video is
16 ready, and so if you can, again, just comment on this
17 as it plays and indicate to the Chamber exactly what we
18 are viewing.
19 (Video played)
20 A. This is the main entrance to the Vukovar
22 Q. Is this located on Gunduliceva Street?
23 A. No, no. This is -- I forget what the street
24 name is.
25 Q. But it is the opposite side from Gunduliceva?
1 A. Correct, yes, the opposite side.
2 This is the inside of the compound. That is
3 the yard.
4 This is the wall and the driveway where we
5 stood and where we were searched and then from there
6 boarded the buses.
7 This is the interior of the hospital.
8 Q. Which floor of the hospital is this, if you
10 A. I believe this is in the basement of the
12 Q. And at the time that you were there on 19th,
13 what parts of the hospital were being used?
14 A. Only the ground floor and the basement
15 because the upper floors were either shelled or
17 This is again the interior of the hospital.
18 This is the door by which we exited.
19 This is the same door from the other side.
20 This is where we came out. This is where the soldiers
21 and the Chetniks stood and we stood against a wall.
22 That is where they took us to the buses.
23 This is the view from Gunduliceva Street.
24 That is where they brought us out. Then we took that
25 street for the...
1 This is Gunduliceva Street.
2 Q. Is this the direction in which you travelled
3 on the 20th November?
4 A. Yes. Yes. This is the direction in which we
5 travelled. This is where the buses drove us.
6 Here we passed a marketplace and then across
7 the bridge.
8 Q. And this bridge crosses what?
9 A. It crosses the Vuka River.
10 Then we crossed the bridge, and here we
11 turned right into Kraseva Street. We continued on
12 Kraseva and up. Then we arrived at the intersection
13 with Ognjen Prica Street and then continued on towards
14 the fairgrounds. This is the fairgrounds street.
15 Yes. This is a bird's eye view of the
17 Q. And what is indicated by the rear entrance is
18 the place where you exited. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes. Correct.
20 Q. If we can stop the video and just go back
21 just a little bit and pause there, if you can go back
22 just a little bit... okay, at that point, that is good.
24 Looking at that, can you see the area of
25 Oranica displayed?
1 A. Yes, that is right next to the bus station.
2 Q. Can you describe where it is perhaps a little
3 better, because unfortunately we are not able to see
4 with the pointer on that. In relation to the river,
5 perhaps, and where it appears on the screen.
6 A. In relation to the Vuka River, let us say
7 from the bottom bridge, that was the former SDK
8 building and then the bus station and then the Olajnica
9 neighbourhood. On the left-hand side of the Vuka River
10 there is this green patch and then the buildings of
12 Q. And there does appear to be rather tall
13 buildings. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. There were seven or eight storey
16 Q. Okay, and if we can just run the tape again.
17 (Video played)
18 If we can stop the tape here just for
19 a moment, do you see indicated on here where your home
20 was located in Vukovar?
21 A. It is hard for me to point to it but I know
22 where it is.
23 Q. Okay. We can go ahead and run the tape, then.
24 (Video played)
25 A. That is the entrance through which we entered
1 the JNA barracks.
2 Q. If we can stop it right there for a moment,
3 do you recognise this location that is indicated here?
4 A. Yes. This is the inside the compound of the
5 JNA barracks and the buses came to be parked in
6 a semicircle over here.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: And at this point we can stop
8 the tape for a moment.
9 And your Honours, at this time I would like
10 to tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 28.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Right. Thank you.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Can you tell us what
13 happened when the buses arrived at the JNA barracks?
14 A. They were parked in a semicircle and there
15 were a lot of Chetniks and military, different
16 uniforms. And the Chetniks had taken the shovels and
17 there were -- would break off the handles. Then
18 I heard them sharpening their knives. They were walking
19 around, they were taking pictures with their -- with
20 knives between their teeth and sometimes some of them
21 would try to board the buses but the guards would not
22 let them go past the stairwell.
23 Q. Were there any threats made to the people on
24 the buses?
25 A. Yes. They entered and threatened. One of them
1 came on and he said, "do not worry. I only cut off ears
2 and noses", another one came on and said, "what did you
3 need all this for", and such.
4 Q. What were you feeling at this time?
5 A. I was frightened, naturally. I felt fear.
6 Q. What did you think was going to happen to
8 A. Not think that anything bad would happen to
9 us, but I was in fear of these savages around me.
10 Q. How long did the buses stay at the JNA
11 barracks, to the best of your knowledge?
12 A. Two or three hours. That was my sense.
13 Q. Were you checking your watch during this time
15 A. I did not have a watch.
16 Q. Do you have any idea of what time of day this
18 A. It was around 12 o'clock or 1 o'clock, maybe
19 even later. I did not have a clear sense.
20 Q. Are you familiar with a place called
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where is it located in relation to the JNA
25 A. Across the road. Maybe diagonally across.
1 Q. It is in close proximity to the JNA barracks?
2 A. Yes. Less than 3 minutes on foot.
3 Q. At some point in time did the buses leave the
5 A. This Captain Radic boarded the buses and read
6 out the names from some list that he had, then these
7 people would get off the buses and would enter another
8 bus. Meanwhile, they were savagely beaten by the
10 Q. You have made reference a couple of times to
11 Major Sljivancanin and Captain Radic. How did you know
12 their names?
13 A. I do not know about Sljivancanin, how I knew
14 who he was, but I knew immediately. I think that he
15 introduced himself, and Sljivancanin addressed Radic
16 as, "Captain Radic".
17 Q. And when had this occurred?
18 A. At the hospital. At the hospital Sljivancanin
19 addressed Radic as, "Captain Radic", and Radic entered
20 the buses at the barracks.
22 Q. Now, you said that Captain Radic had read
23 names and people got off the buses. How long was it
24 after that, if you have any idea, before the buses left
25 the barracks?
1 A. Maybe about half an hour to an hour is when
2 we left.
3 Q. And where did the buses go when they left the
5 A. We went in the direction of Negoslavci, and
6 turned to the left on an asphalt road through the
7 tilled fields towards Ovcara and there we arrived in
8 front of the hangar at Ovcara.
9 Q. During this part of the trip from the JNA
10 barracks to Ovcara, did you still have guards on the
12 A. Yes. The same guard.
13 Q. At this time I would like to show the witness
14 the video from the barracks to Ovcara, please. This is
15 the exhibit that we have previously tendered as
16 Exhibit 28.
17 Again, Witness P, if you can just describe
18 what we are seeing as the video runs.
19 A. Very well.
20 (Video played)
21 This is an aerial shot, and this is the road
22 to Negoslavci. That is where the arrow is pointing.
23 Then we went along that road and then there will be
24 a left turn coming up. Yes. We turned to the left. This
25 is the asphalt road among the fields. We turned here
1 and then there was a quick turn to the right and to the
3 Q. And if we can stop the tape at this point,
4 and then we will pick up with the next segment,
5 I believe.
6 I am sorry, that is all we need of the tape.
7 Now I would like for the witness to be shown
8 a series of maps which we will mark individually, if
9 these can be pulled up on the computer monitor, which
10 also depict the same route. The first map that I would
11 like to display, I believe, is, for the purposes of the
12 technical crew, is identified as B31. We would mark
13 this map as Prosecutor's Exhibit 29.
14 Witness P, can you indicate what is depicted
15 on this map?
16 A. This is a map of Vukovar. We see that along
17 the Danube River there is the hospital, then the JNA
18 barracks, and then the road to Negoslavci. This is the
19 road through the fields and then this small
20 intersection that -- turn in the road and then the
22 Q. If we can display the next map, which is
23 identified as B37 for the technical crew, and we would
24 mark that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 30.
25 Can you tell us what this map shows?
1 A. It is also a map with marked sites of the
2 hospital, the bridge, the Vuka River which we crossed,
3 and then through the streets until we turned into the
5 Q. Okay, now, if we can see B36 which we will
6 mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 30?
7 A. This is a diagram showing the Vukovar
8 hospital. We left by the rear entrance. This is where
9 the buses were parked in Gunduliceva Street and then we
10 left by that street to the barracks and this is -- yes,
11 the main entrance to the hospital at Jevola Street.
12 Q. I believe I made an error, I think that
13 should be Prosecutor's Exhibit 31.
14 We now move to map B35 which I will mark as
15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 32: can you describe what is shown
16 on this map?
17 A. Yes. This is a section of the road between
18 the hospital and just across the bridge past the
19 marketplace. What you can see there is this settlement
20 of neighbourhood of Olajnica.
21 Q. And again, you are unable to point there
22 where we can see. Can you describe where Olajnica is
23 located on here, approximately?
24 A. Here we have the hospital, and the yellow
25 line is the road that we took. When the yellow line
1 reaches the blue area, that is the Vuka River and the
2 bridge across the Vuka River. Across from it is the SDK
3 building, the former SDK, and just above there is the
4 bus station and to the left of it the two larger framed
5 areas is the Olajnica settlement.
6 Q. Would it be fair to say that it was located
7 between the Vuka River and the green square park area
8 up in the left-hand side?
9 A. Yes, yes, I agree with that.
10 Q. And this Olajnica area is where you were
11 living; correct? Or this is where you were in the
12 shelter during the battle?
13 A. During the war, yes. Yes. During the war.
14 Q. And do you have any idea how far
15 approximately that is from the hospital?
16 A. If you take the small streets in normal
17 conditions, less than five minutes. In a straight line,
18 maybe 200 metres, tops.
19 Q. Okay. At this time I would like to display
20 map B34, which I will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 33.
21 Can you describe what this depicts?
22 A. Right. Yes. Here we cross the river -- the
23 bridge on the Vuka River. Then we pass the workers'
24 hall, the old bank, the children's infirmary and then
25 to the Josip Kras Street. Then we follow this street
1 all the way until the intersection with the Ognjen
2 Prica Street and we continue along the fairground
3 street, or Sajmiste Street.
4 Q. Okay, if we can now see number B33 which is
5 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 34.
6 A. This is the Sajmiste or fairground street
7 until we turn off into the JNA barracks.
8 Q. And I know that it is not clearly depicted on
9 this map, but can you describe where the Velepromet
10 facility is located in relation to the barracks ?
11 A. Across the street -- I do not know exactly,
12 whether it is a little bit up the street or down the
13 street where this yellow circle is, it would be right
14 across from there.
15 Q. Okay, and if we can now see B37, please --
16 I am sorry. I think we have already seen that one. It
17 would be B32. I would mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit
19 A. Here we have the barracks, then the road to
20 Negoslavci, then the turn off through the fields, the
21 asphalt road, and that is where we turn to the small
22 intersection and then in the direction of the hangar.
23 MR WILLIAMSON: And at this time, your
24 Honour, I would tender these exhibits as numbers 29
25 through 35, and I have hard copies of these if it is
1 necessary to enter those for evidentiary purposes.
2 For the assistance of the Registry, they are
3 in the same order in which we went through.
4 Now, when the buses arrived at the Ovcara
5 hangar, what did you observe occurring there?
6 A. There people were taken out of the bus one by
7 one and he would have to pass a gauntlet of people and
8 that is where the Chetniks would beat them and were
9 taking their jackets, away their documents, money.
10 Q. Can you describe a little more what you mean
11 by, "a gauntlet"?
12 A. At the front of the bus or next to the
13 entrance there would be about 10 Chetniks on one side
14 and about 10 Chetniks on the other side, so he had to
15 pass by them and as he was doing so he was being beaten
16 by them.
17 Q. Were you able to observe this from the bus
18 that you were on?
19 A. Yes. When I approached I saw it very clearly.
20 Q. Did all of the buses unload the men at the
21 same time?
22 A. No, no. The buses were going one by one and
23 the men were also walking one by one.
24 Q. Now, you have indicated that everyone had to
25 run through this gauntlet. Did this happen to you as
2 A. Yes, yes. Just like everybody else I had to
3 go through it and they beat me and before I entered the
4 hangar I had to turn over the money, the documents in
5 my jacket. Then I entered the hangar and there another
6 group of Chetniks waited for us there and they
7 continued to beat us.
8 Q. What were they beating you with?
9 A. With all kinds of things. With the handles
10 that they prepared there, with the chains, with batons;
11 they were even taking away crutches from the wounded
12 and they beat people with them.
13 Q. Were you injured as a result of these
15 A. I was hit in the eyebrow. A Chetnik wanted to
16 break my glasses so he hit me with a police baton.
17 I still have a scar from it.
18 Q. Were your glasses broken?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. What else was going on in the hangar while
21 you were in there? Can you describe what the general
22 situation was?
23 A. I was standing in an area where there was hay
24 and each one of us was beaten as we went in, and then
25 the local Chetniks went around saying things, making up
1 things, saying that the younger boys had killed
2 children, so they would beat them. Then they would
3 say, accuse someone of having been a sniper and beat
4 him, then a Montenegrin Chetnik came and asked whether
5 there were any Albanians. One person answered and he
6 beat him so badly until he almost died.
7 Q. To your knowledge was anyone else seriously
8 injured or killed as a result of the beatings?
9 A. Except for this Albanian, another man was
10 brutally beaten who also did not give any signs of life
12 Q. Who was beating the people in the hangar?
13 A. All of them, whoever were there, but the
14 Chetniks were the most brutal. Both local ones and
15 those from the outside.
16 Q. Did you see any JNA soldiers at the hangar?
17 A. There were some JNA soldiers, and a number of
18 JNA officers.
19 Q. Did you know many of the people who were in
20 the hangar being beaten?
21 A. I knew most of them, as I said, by sight, and
22 I knew quite a number by name as well.
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, at this time
24 I would like to show another video to Witness P and
25 I would mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 36, and this
1 is a video which was made in the hospital on the night
2 between 19th and 20th, and just see if he can identify
3 any of the persons that are depicted on this video that
4 he saw later at Ovcara.
5 This is a tape of several minutes, and so
6 again, if you can just describe what we are seeing as
7 we see it? And if you see anyone that you know, if you
8 would point them out and we can stop the tape at that
10 (video played)
11 Can you describe what this is showing?
12 A. This is the interior of the hospital, and the
13 wounded. Stop. This man was taken out when I said that
14 they read out names, several names from the list.
15 I did not see him at Ovcara. His name is Stipo Sotinac.
16 Q. Can you describe which man you are talking
17 about, because again, unfortunately, you are not able
18 to point.
19 A. Yes. There are three of them in the bed. He
20 is wearing a white shirt with a moustache and a bandage
21 on his eye. He is bald. He is on the left-hand side of
22 the screen.
23 Q. All right, if we can roll it again, please.
24 A. Stop please. Here, where the sign is, so one
25 cannot see very well, the sign of the ICTY, if you can
1 move that sign which is in the right-hand corner --
2 there. Yes. That man in a white coat, he was the other
3 person, Damjan Samardzic, who was beaten to death at
5 Q. If we can proceed, please.
6 A. Stop. Can you stop? This young man, to the
7 left, the one who is sitting and who is holding onto
8 the bench, in a black jacket with a white lining, his
9 name is Damir Kovacic. He was wounded in the chest and
10 he was brutally beaten.
11 Q. Do you see anyone else in that photograph
12 that you know?
13 A. There is Kacic, Igor. We can play the tape
14 until I see his face better. Will you play the tape,
15 please, for his face to show? Stop. That is Igor Kacic.
16 He was 16 years old at the time.
17 Q. Can you indicate which person he is?
18 A. Yes. He is just next to Kovacic. He is the
19 tallest in this shot. He is standing up. He is the
20 tallest there. He has a purple-ish jacket with a white
21 T-shirt underneath and he has a fringe over his
22 forehead, so the tallest man standing on the left-hand
23 side of the screen.
24 Q. Okay, if we can roll the tape some more. I am
25 sorry, Igor Kacic you did see at Ovcara?
1 A. Yes, I did. I saw him at Ovcara.
2 Q. Continue on, please.
3 A. There we can see Igor again.
4 Q. Do you know where you were in relation to
5 where he was standing?
6 A. At the time when this was being filmed?
7 Q. Or during that evening, yes. If you recognise
8 any of these places where you might have been, and if
9 we can stop it here for just a moment, if you can
10 answer my question.
11 A. I spent the night with them with Damir and
12 Igor. Nearby there was a chair where I slept that
14 Q. Okay. Again, at this point, do you know this
16 A. Yes. That man was seen at Ovcara as well.
17 I do not know his name.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, it can run again.
19 Your Honours, there is some commentary
20 involved in the tape as well as some interviews so we
21 have taken the sound out of the tape.
22 A. I saw this young man too at Ovcara.
23 Q. Do you know his name?
24 A. No, I do not.
25 Q. Okay. We can start again please.
2 A. Stop please. I saw this man, the one in the
3 white coat, and the one in a lilac sweater with his arm
4 in a sling. His surname is, "Popovske". I do not know
5 his first name and I do not know the name of the man in
6 the white coat.
7 Q. You indicated the man in the lilac sweater,
8 his surname is Jakubovski? Is that correct?
9 A. I think he had two surnames. Dosen,
11 Q. And you indicated that the man in white, you
12 are not aware of his name; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. If we can begin again.
15 Do you know who this man is?
16 A. I do not know him. I think he got burned at
17 Olajnica because during the last couple of days they
18 had used incendiary bullets and napalm to hit those
19 buildings, of course the Chetniks.
20 Stop, please. This young man in a white coat
21 in the middle, his name is Damir Polhert is his
22 surname, so I saw him too.
23 Q. Okay. It can run again.
24 A. There. We can see him again in the left-hand
25 corner of the screen.
1 Q. And this is the person with the white coat
2 and the glasses on; correct?
3 A. Yes. Damir. Polhert.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: And I believe we can stop the
5 tape at this point.
6 At this time I would like to tender the tape
7 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 36, and in relation to the
8 individuals that he has identified, we will provide
9 still photos of those taken from the video and those
10 would be Exhibits 37 through 45 inclusive and we will
11 sort this with the Registry and make it clear which
12 ones are which. The times match up and are reflected
13 on the photographs.
14 Your Honour, at this time I would suggest,
15 perhaps, if you are so inclined we can take a brief
16 recess and then...
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Right: we stand in
18 recess for twenty minutes.
19 (10.50 am)
20 (A short break)
21 (11.20 am)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Can I ask the Prosecutor to
23 resume the examination?
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, your Honour.
25 Your Honour, just to perhaps make things bit
1 clearer, I have spoken with Mr. Vos and I think in order
2 to make it absolutely clear which photographs were
3 discussed when he went through, I would like to show
4 each of them to the witness very quickly and just have
5 him identify those and we will give it a number as we
6 go through.
7 So if I could have the usher bring it
8 through, and just take all of these to him and copies
9 have already been made, so...
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, while I have
11 still got this matter in mind, can you help us as to
12 the distance between the JNA barracks and Ovcara?
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe it is
14 around 4-5 kilometres.
15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: We will have an investigator
17 who will testify later and probably at the conclusion
18 of our case and he can give you the precise distance at
19 that time.
20 Witness P, I would like for you to examine
21 each of these photographs in turn. The first one we
22 will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 37, and just indicate
23 whether these are the photographs, that these
24 photographs depict the scenes from the video that you
25 identified earlier in your testimony.
1 A. I am afraid I cannot hear very well. Could
2 the interpreter speak a little more loudly, please?
3 Q. And as you examine each one of these
4 photographs, if you can identify the name of the person
5 if you know it, or just state that you are unable to
6 identify the person by name, and then any location
7 where you saw them later.
8 A. This first photograph on the left-hand side
9 of the photograph, the man in a white shirt with
10 a bandage across his left eye, is Stipo Sotinac.
11 MR WILLIAMSON: And at this time I would ask
12 that you perhaps display this on the -- I am sorry,
13 just a moment. (Pause).
14 Your Honour, in order to expedite this and go
15 through this as quickly as possible, if perhaps the
16 witness can display each photograph on the ELMO and
17 then just hand it to the usher in quick succession and
18 we can move through this.
19 If you can just wait one moment until the
20 ELMO is turned on. This is the exhibit we are marking
21 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 37. Can you just briefly state
22 what this is, please?
23 A. This man here is Stipo Sotinac. His name was
24 called out before all the others had left the hospital
25 and he was in that group.
1 Q. The next photograph, please, which we will
2 mark -- which will be marked as Prosecutor's
3 Exhibit 38?
4 A. This man here is Damjan Samardzic, who was
5 beaten to death in the hangar in Ovcara.
6 Q. And did this man have a nickname that you are
7 aware of?
8 A. His nickname was "veliki bojler", or, "big
10 Q. The next photograph, please? And this is
11 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 39?
12 A. This young man is Damir Kovacic. He was
13 wounded in the chest and he was brutally beaten at
15 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be
16 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 40.
17 A. This boy here is Igor Kacic aged 16. I saw
18 him at Ovcara as well.
19 Q. The next photograph, please, marked as
20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 41.
21 A. I do not know this man's name, but I saw him
22 at Ovcara as well.
23 Q. The next photograph, which will be marked as
24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 42.
25 A. Also, the same applies to this man. I do not
1 know his name but he was there.
2 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be
3 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 43.
4 A. I do not know this man's name either.
5 Q. Is there anyone else in that photograph?
6 A. Yes. This is Dosanja Jakubovski. I think his
7 first name is Ivan or something like that. Dosanja
8 Jakubovski. Those are surnames.
9 Q. And did you see both of these men at Ovcara?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. The next photograph, please. And this will be
12 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 44.
13 A. Those are the same two men. Jakubovski and
14 this other one.
15 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be
16 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 45.
17 A. This is Damir Polhert wearing glasses. And
18 I saw him at Ovcara.
19 Q. Okay, and the last photograph, please, which
20 I do not believe you indicated on the videotape, did
21 you have an opportunity prior to seeing this videotape
22 in court to go through it with an analyst from the
23 Prosecutor's office?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And at that time, did you pick out this scene
1 as depicting someone that you know?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Can you explain what this is, and again
4 this is marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 46.
5 A. This man was at Ovcara as well. I do not know
6 his name.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. At this time, your
8 Honour, I would like to tender these to the court as
9 Exhibits 37 through 46 inclusive.
11 Witness P, before we broke and started
12 viewing this videotape, you were describing what was
13 transpiring inside the hangar. How long did you remain
14 in the hangar?
15 A. I was there for about -- I do not know, half
16 an hour, 45 minutes in the hangar when a local Chetnik,
17 a soldier, came up to me, and asked me what I was doing
18 there. I just shrugged my shoulders. He asked me
19 whether I was in the army. I said, "no". I said that
20 I was in the nuclear shelter at Olajnica. Then he took
21 me aside, left from the door, next to Jekoslav Sindl,
22 who was also there with me. We were guarded there by
23 a JNA soldier with a sniper. He was three steps removed
24 from us, and he watched over us.
25 Q. In 1991 did you know who Slavko Dokmanovic
2 A. I knew that he was the town mayor of Vukovar,
3 that he was a Serb, that he had left some time in June,
4 but I did not know his face.
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Were you aware of him being
6 at Ovcara on 20th November 1991?
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, I am not sure
8 that that is a question which is admissible. I think
9 you had better rephrase that. You can ask him whether
10 he saw the witness, that is one thing, but being aware,
11 of course, could allow in all sorts of other evidence.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, your Honour,
13 I will rephrase it.
14 Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic there on
15 20th November 1991?
16 A. Probably, but I did not recognise him because
17 I did not know who he was.
18 Q. What were the circumstances under which you
19 were taken outside of the hangar?
20 A. The soldier took me out after having spent
21 some time left of the door, I was taken outside the
22 hangar. Kacic Igor was there, me, and gradually they
23 brought some others and at the end there were nine of
24 us. Then we went back to the hangar and they took down
25 our names in two copies. One copy was given to a JNA
1 soldier, a JNA officer who said he was a member of the
2 military security in the JNA.
3 Q. You indicated that nine of you were taken
4 outside. Did all nine of you remain together?
5 A. When we were about to go towards the van to
6 take us to Vukovar a Chetnik came up, who beat Damir
7 Kovacic and asked, "what is Igor Kacic doing there?".
8 One of the soldiers had put him aside because he was
9 young. He was only 16. Then this one said, "he has to
10 go back into the hangar. His father is an Ustasha".
11 Then we set off towards the van and a Miroluub ran up
12 to us, a Chetnik. I had the impression that he was some
13 kind of commander there, and a man with a stick was
14 with us. He was an invalid from before the war, his
15 name was Ivan Najasmic. And Miroluub asked the
16 Chetniks who were escorting us why they were taking
17 him. He is the HDZ secretary, so he was taken back as
18 well so that seven of us remained.
19 Q. How long did you remain outside the hangar,
20 to the best of your knowledge?
21 A. Right. About one hour, perhaps. As we were
22 leaving it was already growing dark.
23 Q. And you have indicated you were leaving.
24 Where did you go from there?
25 A. While we were still in front of the hangar we
1 heard the sound of heavy machinery in the distance.
2 I do not know what -- they were earth-moving equipment
3 or something like that, but we heard the sounds of this
4 heavy equipment.
5 We were first taken to the Velepromet, and
6 they would not take us in there. There was no space
7 there. So they took us to Modateks.
8 Q. How were you transported from Ovcara to
9 Velepromet and then to Modateks?
10 A. In a van. We were in a van in the luggage
11 area. We sat on some kind of crates.
12 Q. Who else was in this combi-van with you?
13 A. There were seven of us altogether, and some
14 Chetniks were with us, but I cannot recall their faces
15 because it was dark and I did not have my glasses on.
16 Q. How long did you remain at Modateks after you
17 arrived there?
18 A. We arrived there at around 7 o'clock in the
19 evening, and we spent the night on a marble table that
20 was used for stretching cloth, and that is where we
21 spent the night. In the morning the Chetniks arrived
22 and questioned us, who we were and what we did. Then
23 a Chetnik came and took me with him.
24 Q. How did you come to be released from
25 Modateks, after this Chetnik came and got you, where
1 did he take you?
2 A. I was not released. He took me to a private
3 house where there were mostly elderly people whose sons
4 were in the Croatian army, that is in the guards, and
5 the mother of this Chetnik was there. This was a house
6 that he took and -- or made his own.
7 Q. How long did you remain at this house?
8 A. Until 14th December 1991.
9 Q. And so you remained in Vukovar during this
10 entire period; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. During this time, did you ever have an
13 opportunity to talk with any of the local Serbs about
14 what had happened at Ovcara?
15 A. They came to me daily and among them there
16 were about four or five who were at Ovcara. I did not
17 there ask anyone except for that one called Savic, and
18 he told me, "they are all under the grass".
19 Q. On 14th December where did you go?
20 A. I went to Sid and I was there for five days
21 and then I went to Belgrade. I was there until
22 12th January and then I went through Bosnia on to
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions
25 of this witness, your Honour.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
2 MR. FILA: Before I start my questioning,
3 I would like to object for the record to this mode of
4 questioning. This witness has twice given statements
5 and has never mentioned Dokmanovic, including the Rule
6 61 hearing.
7 I am trying to be tolerant. I am trying to
8 accept that I was not given the additional statement of
9 the witness, but if I do not react, I may be put in
10 a similar situation in the future and this is why
11 I want to raise this objection.
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, the evidence which the
13 witness gave about your client -- I fully support what
14 you say, that there was no indication that such
15 evidence was going to be given, and before such
16 evidence is given, there should be some indication so
17 that you are aware of it. I am sure the Prosecution
18 will bear that in mind in future.
19 As for the evidence, in effect, what he said,
20 analysing it, was that he did not know your client,
21 asked if he was aware, or had he seen, and that was my
22 suggestion, he said he could not -- he probably was
23 there, but he could not say because he did not know
24 him. So, in effect, that evidence is of no worth at all
25 because he was not able to recognise him and clearly,
1 it would not amount, I think I could say, to any form
2 of identification. I hope that assists.
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I may reply,
4 that was our position, that this was no identification
5 whatsoever, and the way that the witness stated it was
6 perhaps not what we expected, but in any event, he made
7 no identification of Mr. Dokmanovic.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That must be the solution,
9 but if a question of that sort is going to be asked,
10 there should be some prior warning that it is intended
11 to ask the witness such a question because it is such
12 a direct matter, going to identification.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
14 Cross-examined by MR. FILA
15 Q. You mentioned that on 19th you were at the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know whether anybody was taken out on
19 19th on the part of the Chetniks, paramilitary,
20 soldiers, anyone? I mean of the people who were at the
22 A. Yes, on 19th most people left the hospital.
23 Q. Sorry, we did not understand each other. Were
24 they taken out forcibly by anyone?
25 A. When somebody tells you to climb on a truck
1 and take -- go to Velepromet, that is forcible, to me.
2 Q. I am talking about the 19th.
3 A. Very well.
4 Q. Do you know whether any one of them ended up
5 in Ovcara?
6 A. Of those who were taken out on 19th? No, I do
7 not know.
8 Q. Among the JNA personnel who came, did they
9 have the five point stars on their hats? Sljivancanin
10 and the rest of them?
11 A. I do not recall any five point stars. I only
12 recall seeing --
13 Q. What? White Eagles?
14 A. No, white -- red flags without a star.
15 Q. So that would... very well, there is no
16 problem. There is a tape that exists. Were also among
17 them some local Serbs among the paramilitary?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were these the local Serbs who know Vukovar
20 as, for instance, you know Vukovar?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did they need any other assistance so that
23 the JNA would move through Vukovar or were the Serbs
24 enough in order for them to be shown things around?
25 A. Was it -- I did not understand the question.
1 Q. You said that they knew Vukovar. All these
2 local people would be able to show them where the bus
3 station was, where everything else was.
4 A. As far as I knew, the military had very
5 precise maps. They did not need anyone to guide them.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Just another thing,
7 since you took part in the battle in some way, it does
8 not matter how, who was in the area between Negoslavci
9 and Vukovar during the battle? Let us say in September,
10 October, November, while you were -- how shall
11 I express it -- free?
12 A. There was the barracks there from a while
13 back. I do not know who was there. I cannot claim, but
14 it is certain that shells were coming from that area.
15 So, the military and probably the Chetniks. I have some
16 information that there were also Chetniks, some local
17 ones and some that came from the outside.
18 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor, you said what
19 you meant by the word, "Chetnik". What do you mean by the
20 word, "Ustasha"?
21 A. For me, "Ustasha", is the historical army of
22 the independent state of Croatia.
23 Q. Were there such people in 1991?
24 A. No, I refer to the history.
25 Q. I understood that, but, were there any
1 contemporary ones?
2 A. No, it was the 1941 through 45.
3 Q. Were there any paramilitary formations in
5 A. I am sorry, I did not see any.
6 Q. Was this also historic thing, or, for
7 instance, what power did they have?
8 A. I do not know about -- oh, you mean as
9 a historic person or somebody who had some paramilitary
11 Q. Were they armed formations?
12 A. I did not see a single "paraga" there. I do
13 not know if they were armed.
14 Q. When you were going from the hospital to the
15 JNA barracks, did you go directly or did you go to the
16 Velepromet and then around, if you can recall?
17 A. No. We went directly to the barracks.
18 Q. Velepromet is across or a little further up?
19 A. A little up.
20 Q. How far up?
21 A. About 100 metres.
22 Q. I understand that you did not have a watch,
23 but -- so it is difficult for you to orientate yourself
24 in time, but what time of the day was it approximately
25 when you arrived at Ovcara, and approximately, of
2 A. When we arrived at Ovcara?
3 Q. Yes. When all these five or six buses, as you
4 stated, arrived there.
5 A. Between 2 and 3 o'clock.
6 Q. You mean 2 or 3 in the afternoon?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when did you leave?
9 A. Between 5 and 6.
10 Q. Okay. Between 5 and 6 in the afternoon, just
11 to avoid confusion. Thank you.
12 You mentioned the same Jurisic. He killed
13 those two guardsmen?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This person -- is this a person who has some
16 fingers missing?
17 A. No. It is a neighbour of mine. I know him
18 quite well.
19 Q. What is his name?
20 A. Slobodan. He killed -- he executed a man who
21 he had first wounded and then he stepped over him and
22 executed him. That was on 26th or 27th.
23 Q. If I understood correctly, you are -- or were
24 left without your glasses when you were hit with the
25 baton on your eyebrow.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How strong are your glasses?
3 A. About 2:25.
4 Q. You -- after you left without your glasses
5 you recognised some persons pretty well.
6 A. Well, it is not such a bad sight.
7 Q. Yes, I know, I have very similar. The reason
8 I ask you is because later in a van, when you were
9 seven, who did you recognise? Who did you know among
10 these people?
11 A. I knew -- I have answered that question.
12 Q. Yes. If you do not want to -- if there is any
13 kind of danger you can just write them down on a piece
14 of paper. They do not have to be revealed.
15 A. Excuse me, your Honours, do I need to answer
16 this question?
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Why are you hesitating?
18 May I ask you whether there is any particular reason?
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, some of these
20 people are going to be testifying and are protected
21 witnesses, so perhaps that is the concern of the
22 witness, that he is aware that these other people have
23 requested protection.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you object to his
25 writing on a piece of paper as suggested by the Defence
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Could you please
3 write them on a piece of paper? (Pause).
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Could I see that before it
5 is tendered, please? We would have no objection to that
6 being tendered.
7 MR. FILA: You said that you did not see the
8 stars in the hospital on 19th and 20th?
9 A. Yes. That is what I said.
10 Q. Very well. How about at Ovcara? Did you see
11 anybody wearing these five-pointed stars? Did you serve
12 the army, by the way?
13 A. No, because of my eyes.
14 Q. Yes. Me too. So do you recall anyone?
15 A. I do not recall anybody at Ovcara.
16 Q. So you do not recall seeing them? Do you
17 remember in which bus you were there?
18 A. The last.
19 Q. Were any of these people that you wrote down
20 with you on that bus?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All of them or some of them?
23 A. Some of them.
24 Q. Would you please mark the ones who were there
25 for me?
1 A. So this was the next to last.
2 Q. Which one was it?
3 A. If there were six it was the fifth, if there
4 were five it was the fourth.
5 Q. Very well. So fourth or fifth. Please just
6 put a mark on each one that was on the bus with you.
7 Excuse me, are you done?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well. I only have one last question,
10 then. You said that there was some hay in this hangar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is the last question, I apologise.
13 I will not keep you much longer.
14 Would that have meant that somebody slept on
15 this hay or that somebody had stayed there before?
16 A. This was an agricultural farm so I do not
17 know what it was for.
18 Q. Did you see any machinery there like
19 combines, tractors, or earth movers?
20 A. I think that there was something there but in
21 the very back of the hangar.
22 Q. You mean inside the hangar? I am referring to
23 the outside.
24 A. I only heard some heavy machinery outside.
25 Q. Did you see any?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. I have no
3 further questions and I agree that the witness may be
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Just a moment, your Honour,
8 please. (Pause). Your Honour, did Mr. Fila intend to
9 tender this into evidence? Was it? Has it been tendered
10 and given a number?
11 MR. FILA: Yes, because I thought that maybe
12 later I would confirm this list with others who may
13 testify. No other reasons.
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions,
15 your Honour.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So this would be
17 Defence exhibit number?
18 THE REGISTRAR: D3.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
20 I am sorry, I have a few questions. I am not
21 clear about one or two points. First of all, you said
22 nine persons -- you saw nine persons who were beaten.
23 When and where were they beaten? The nine persons you
24 indicated you saw in the picture? In the hangar or
25 before entering the hangar? I did not understand you
1 correctly so I am just asking for a point of
3 A. I do not know how many people I identified on
4 this tape. If it is nine, then it is nine. They beat
5 them before entering the hangar and inside the hangar.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Also inside the hangar. Yes.
7 Tell me, so you -- they took off your glasses before
8 you entered the hangar or in the hangar?
9 A. When I entered the hangar. They did not take
10 away my glasses but the Chetnik broke them with
11 a baton.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: As soon as you entered the
13 hangar they were broken.
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: And so I understand it, you
16 are short-sighted?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: What sort of light was there
19 in the hangar? How could you see the other people
20 moving around in the hangar? How could you recognise
21 the faces of other people? Was it daylight, because it
22 was in the afternoon? In the afternoon, it was not yet
23 dark. I understand what you said.
24 A. There was daylight. There was daylight and
25 close-up I can recognise people I know, and men I knew
1 them. Even if they were further away from me I could
2 recognise them by their voices.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. So the light came in,
4 entered the hangar from where? I am asking from where.
5 A. Through the door, and there were some kind of
6 windows up there.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. Can you remember how
8 many windows?
9 A. Along the edge of the ceiling there is one
10 window next to another, just below the roof in a line,
11 the whole length of the ceiling.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Did I understand you
13 correctly? Did you mean to say that there were two
14 windows, therefore, in the roof? One next to the other
16 A. No. No. There is the roof, and then below
17 that the whole length of the wall, there are windows.
18 One next to another. I do not know how many.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: And in addition, how many
20 doors were there in the hangar?
21 A. Two on one side, two large ones, and I think
22 there were another two on the other side.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: While you were in the hangar
24 were the doors open or were they shut by the people who
25 took you inside?
1 A. One door was open to the front.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: If you do not mind I would
3 like to ask you a question relating to the -- what
4 happened in June 1991. You spoke of the murder of two
5 people who were murdered somewhere, I think, in
6 Vukovar. Then at one point you mentioned that some
7 soldiers were wearing the -- and I quote what you said,
8 "the insignia of the Croatian army". Do you know when
9 soldiers, Croatian soldiers started wearing the
10 insignia of the Croatian army?
11 A. Those two men were wearing the uniforms of
12 the Croatian army and they came to the coffee bar to
13 have a drink and these two came and killed them.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but if I, again, have
16 understood you correctly, that means that those two
17 soldiers were not members of the JNA, at that stage.
18 In June 1991, there were already soldiers wearing the
19 uniform and the insignia of the Croatian army as
20 distinct from the JNA.
21 A. Yes, yes. That is the end of June. Somewhere
22 around 27th June.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I understand
24 there are no objections -- oh yes. Prosecutor?
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, perhaps for
1 clarification, we have some photographs of the hangar
2 and this might elucidate a little further on the
3 questions you are asking, so if these could be showed
4 to the witness and placed on the ELMO, perhaps this
5 would help to answer your questions.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection?
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: This would be Prosecutor's
8 Exhibit 20. I would ask that it be turned to the fourth
9 photograph from the rear. I am sorry, the fifth
10 photograph from the rear and then to go forward from
11 that point.
12 If the usher could bring it over here I can
13 pinpoint the page.
14 Witness P, if you can indicate to the court
15 what is depicted in this first photograph?
16 A. This is the hangar where we were brought.
17 This is one door, and windows below the roof. This is
18 the hangar. (Indicated).
19 Q. Perhaps if the overhead lights could be
20 dimmed a little bit, I think there is quite
21 a reflection on here. It might make it a little
23 That is fine. Thank you.
24 If you can, could you just indicate one more
25 time what you have just pointed out?
1 A. This is one of the doors. All of this is the
2 hangar. These are the windows, just below the roof that
3 I was talking about. This is the other door that was
4 shut, and on the rear side I think there were also two
5 doors but they were closed and there were also windows
6 parallel to these on the other side.
7 Q. Which door were you and the other men brought
8 in on 20th November?
9 A. This way, the buses were lined up here and
10 then one by one they would park here. The Chetniks were
11 standing on both sides of this drive. We had to pass
12 between them. On the one side they collected the
13 documents, and the group of us nine and afterwards
14 seven were lined up here.
15 Q. Now, if you would turn to the next page,
16 please, and if the view can be brought out a little bit
17 to show the whole photograph?
18 A. This is the door. The men were standing
19 alongside the walls. The Chetniks were here, and I was
20 standing right here when I was separated, together with
22 Q. Again, if you would turn to the next
23 photograph, please?
24 A. This is the interior of the hangar. This was
25 taken from the entrance. This is the other door that
1 I mentioned. Here are the windows. Roughly here was the
2 hay. This is where they killed one man. I was here.
3 I was standing somewhere here. This is where they beat
4 Damir Kovacic. All this is very close. Kemo was dragged
5 out from here and beaten here and as I knew him, and
6 regardless of my eyesight, I knew his figure, I knew
7 his clothing, so it was easy to see, and especially
8 here when Kovacic was being beaten. (Indicated).
9 Q. And if you would turn to the next photograph,
11 A. It was roughly from this spot that the
12 photograph was taken, that the guard stood. I was here,
13 and roughly in the middle somewhere here, was a JNA
14 officer. (Indicated).
15 Q. You have indicated early in your testimony
16 that at the time that you were in there there was no
17 machinery in the hangar, though. Is that correct?
18 A. If I could go back to the previous
19 photograph, something like this may have been here at
20 the back, but this is not a machine, it is an
21 accessory. So it was somewhere here in the back. One or
22 two of these things. These accessories. They are not
23 machines themselves.
24 MR WILLIAMSON: Very well. Your Honour,
25 I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
2 MR. FILA: No, only he forgot to describe the
3 officer. I do not know whether that has any
5 JUDGE CASSESE: What do you mean, "describe
6 the officer"? He said that there was a JNA officer
7 standing in the middle of the hangar. Do you want to
8 ask him a question about the officer?
9 MR. FILA: I thought perhaps it might be
10 interesting to hear what he looked like, what rank he
11 had, and that sort of thing.
12 A. I do not know the rank because I never served
13 the army. He was in a regular uniform of the JNA. He
14 had a cap on his head. He was rather fat, about 170,
15 and with grey-ish hair.
16 Q. Did he have a moustache?
17 A. I think he did not.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection to
19 the witness being released?
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you so much
22 for coming here to testify. You may now be released.
23 Are you going to call...
24 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, your Honours.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you going to call
1 Witness K?
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. It is Witness K.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask you
4 what sort of protection you intend to provide to the
6 MR. WAESPI: This witness would like to have
7 his face protected as well, but his voice will be his
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. Thank you.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you
12 to make the solemn declaration?
13 WITNESS K (sworn)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
15 Examined by MR WAESPI
16 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I would like to
17 show the witness now a piece of paper and I would like
18 to ask him whether the name of this piece of paper is
19 his name, and I would ask him to say, "yes", or, "no".
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. WAESPI: I would tender that as our next
22 Prosecution exhibit under seal. It might be 46 or 47.
23 THE REGISTRAR: 47.
24 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.
25 Now, I will refer to you as, "Witness K",
1 from now on.
2 Are you feeling comfortable, Witness K?
3 A. Yes, thank you.
4 Q. Do you recall that you were interviewed on
5 7th September 1995 by an investigator from this
7 A. Yes, I do recall.
8 Q. And did you recall that you signed a document
9 which was the English translation of this interview?
10 A. Yes, I remember.
11 Q. Thank you. Can I ask the usher to show him
12 both the English original and the Croatian translation
13 and ask him whether he sees his signature at the bottom
14 of the English original.
15 Is that your signature?
16 A. Yes, that is my signature.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Thank you very much.
18 I would like to tender that as the next
19 Prosecution exhibit, that is 48, and the Croatian
20 translation would be 48A. Both under seal.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection, Mr. Fila? No
22 objection? Thank you.
23 MR. WAESPI: Witness K, where were you born?
24 A. In Zagreb.
25 Q. Is that the place where you lived most of
1 your life?
2 A. My whole life.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please outline quickly
4 for us your educational background?
5 A. I completed elementary school then secondary
6 school for transportation and I am now studying
7 physical education and I also went to some military
9 Q. What is your profession now?
10 A. I am a professional officer of the Croatian
12 Q. Did you ever serve in the JNA?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you serve in another army?
15 A. No. Only in the Croatian army.
16 Q. When did you join the Croatian army?
17 A. On 10th August 1991.
18 Q. Why did you decide to join the Croatian army?
19 A. I was about 20 at the time. My homeland,
20 Croatia, was in danger. There was war in the air, and
21 I thought it was necessary for me to join in the
22 defence of its sovereignty.
23 Q. Where did you register for going into the
24 Croatian army?
25 A. In Zagreb. In the settlement of Rakitje.
1 Q. Did you sign a piece of paper, a contract?
2 A. Yes. I signed a contract joining the guards,
3 the People's Guards.
4 Q. Did you sign any type of oath on that paper?
5 A. Yes. One could call it that, yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us approximately what the
7 wording was on that contract?
8 A. I pledged to protect the interests of the
9 Croatian state, its sovereignty, its people and
10 citizens living in it, and if necessary, that I would
11 be willing to lay down my life in defence of those
12 goals. That was the most important thing, and then also
13 some rights and duties were indicated of me as a member
14 of the People's Guards.
15 Q. Were you paid for rendering these services?
16 A. Yes, I received a salary.
17 Q. Who did pay you that salary?
18 A. The Croatian state.
19 Q. For how long did this contract last?
20 A. We signed for three years.
21 Q. Did you get any training?
22 A. Yes. Brief, basic training.
23 Q. Where did you receive this training?
24 A. In a place called Kumrovec.
25 Q. Is it in Croatia?
1 A. Yes, yes, in the Zagorje region of Croatia.
2 Q. Did you wear any uniforms?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was there any indication on the uniform or
5 coat or hat that this was a uniform of the Croatian
7 A. There were Croatian coat of arms and the
8 Croatian flag.
9 Q. Did there come a time when you went to
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you recall the date?
13 A. 30th of September, 1st October. I entered
14 Vukovar on 1st October at 3.30 am.
15 Q. Who gave you the command to go to Vukovar?
16 A. I personally was given the command by my
17 commander, Perkovic.
18 Q. Is he also in the Croatian army?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. What was your unit composed of?
21 A. My unit had 20 men. It was divided into two
22 detachments of ten men each.
23 Q. Were you the leading of one of those two
25 A. I led the second detachment with 10 men in
2 Q. What kind of unit was that?
3 A. An infantry unit.
4 Q. Who were your subordinates, the ten people
5 you mentioned?
6 A. They were soldiers, just like me.
7 Q. Are they also from Zagreb, from the area you
8 are coming from?
9 A. Most of them.
10 Q. What kind of weapons did you have?
11 A. Mostly infantry weapons and anti-armoured
13 Q. Now, what happened when your unit arrived in
14 Vukovar that night in the morning of October 1st?
15 A. First, we replaced a unit that was already in
16 Vukovar at the silo. We took up those positions there,
17 and we protected those positions from attack from the
19 Q. So this location you were positioned at was
20 located at the Danube. Is that what you are saying?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You protected those positions against attacks
23 from the Danube, you just said. Who was on the other
24 side of the Danube?
25 A. On the other side was the Yugoslav People's
2 Q. Can you tell us what weapons the soldiers of
3 the JNA had?
4 A. In view of the weapons they fired at us, they
5 had artillery, aeroplanes, so they targeted us with
6 shells, cannon, and aircraft. They had all the weaponry
7 that they had at their disposal.
8 Q. At your position at the Danube, did you ever
9 have any contacts with the enemy? I mean, did you have
10 any infantry contacts with the enemy? You mentioned
11 shelling before.
12 A. No. We did not have any infantry contact. On
13 one occasion they tried to cross the Danube but one
14 could not really call it an operation or an action.
15 There were no infantry contacts with them at the silo.
16 Q. After you left the position at the Danube,
17 did you move to another location in the city of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us where this location was?
21 A. It was mostly in the Prvomajska Street, or
22 1st May Street.
23 Q. Here at this location, do you have any
24 infantry contacts with the JNA?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Did you also have infantry contacts with
2 other forces apart from JNA, like paramilitaries?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us the difference between those
5 two groups, between the JNA and the paramilitaries?
6 A. The difference is in the clothing, their
7 insignia, that is the greatest difference.
8 Q. From your impression in combat, can you tell
9 us whether you thought they acted in concert, they
10 acted together?
11 A. Well, since they were attacking us together,
12 it is logical to conclude that they were acting in
13 concert. Logic tells you that you cannot engage in an
14 operation unless you have co-ordination and agreement.
15 Q. Did you have the impression that one of those
16 two groups, the paramilitaries and the JNA forces was
17 superior to the other?
18 A. Well, in view of the fact that the JNA had
19 the weaponry and the logistics, so I can only draw the
20 logical conclusion that the paramilitary formations
21 were subordinated to the Yugoslav People's Army and of
22 course they had the educated people so probably they
23 were in control. That is my conclusion.
24 Q. You are a professional soldier. When you
25 looked at those two forces, at the soldiers from the
1 JNA and the ones from the paramilitaries, was there any
2 difference in terms of behaviour in combat, their
3 appearance, the way they were fighting?
4 A. Mostly in the front-lines were the JNA
5 soldiers. That is as far as I was able to observe. The
6 others were a little bit in the rear. At least in the
7 area in which I operated there was the Yugoslav
8 People's Army, mostly.
9 Q. Now, was there a time when you went to the
10 Vukovar hospital?
11 A. I went to the Vukovar hospital on several
12 occasions and that is where I was at a time of the
14 Q. When did you surrender? Do you recall the
17 A. To me the surrender was on 20th November when
18 the army took over and when they put us on buses. For
19 me that marks the date of surrender.
20 Q. When was the time when you entered the
21 hospital and remained there for a couple of days? Can
22 you recall that date?
23 A. You must understand that six and a half years
24 have passed, and I will say that perhaps it was the
25 17th but it could have been 18th as well.
1 Q. Can you tell us the reason why you
3 A. In those moments I saw no other solution.
4 I had no choice and I had no way out.
5 Q. Were you the only unit that surrendered?
6 A. No. We were not.
7 Q. So there were many units that surrendered?
8 A. Yes. The entire town surrendered, so all the
9 military who were there at the time had to surrender.
10 Q. So the effect of that mass surrender was that
11 the fighting had stopped in those days?
12 A. Yes. You could say that in the last two days
13 there were no -- there was no fighting because the
14 Yugoslav People's Army saw that everything was gone,
15 that there were no positions left, that there was no
16 resistance, so that was logical.
17 Q. Can you describe the situation you
18 encountered in the hospital when you entered it on
19 a date which might be 16th or 17th?
20 A. At that time there was already a big crowd at
21 the hospital because everybody was pulling back towards
22 the area of the hospital. There were a lot of civilians
23 in there and a lot of children, a lot of wounded.
24 Everybody gathered there, whoever was leaving their
25 shelters would be retreating towards the hospital. So
1 there was a big mess, there was panic and a lot of
3 Q. Did you take your weapons into the hospital?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How many people, how many subordinates of
6 your unit did surrender together with you?
7 A. I cannot give you the exact number, but about
8 seven or eight people.
9 Q. Did they have weapons when they entered the
11 A. No. Most of them were wounded so they went to
12 the hospital and there they did not bring their
14 Q. Were you personally wounded?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you wear a uniform in the hospital?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you become aware that on November
19 19th the JNA entered the hospital?
20 A. Yes. I saw them in the evening hours of 19th.
21 It may have been close to midnight. I do not remember
23 Q. Turning now to the 20th November, were you
24 some time in the morning told to get out of the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you recall after all this time what time
3 you were called out of the hospital?
4 A. I will try to remember. I think that the time
5 was between 9 and 10.
6 Q. What did you see outside the hospital
8 A. First I saw a lot of our people in civilian
9 clothes. I saw the JNA soldiers. I saw their local
10 forces, the paramilitaries. I also saw some military
11 vehicles. I saw the APCs.
12 Q. What happened to you personally when you left
13 the hospital building? Were you stopped at some point?
14 A. Yes. We were all stopped there at the
15 entrance to the hospital, and we were searched by the
16 JNA soldiers.
17 Q. Were there more JNA soldiers around other
18 than the ones who were conducting the searches?
19 A. Yes. There were others as security.
20 Q. How many soldiers were there in total?
21 A. I do not know the number, but there was
22 enough of them to protect themselves from some
23 potential reaction of ours which obviously was not
24 coming. There were a lot of them.
25 Q. Were those soldiers armed?
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. You described JNA soldiers and also others,
3 paramilitaries. Is that correct? Are you talking about
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said there were many soldiers. Can you
7 tell us whether there were more JNA soldiers or more
8 paramilitary soldiers?
9 A. There were more JNA soldiers.
10 Q. Did you see only soldiers or were there also
11 officers with a rank?
12 A. I did not look at it personally, nor did I
13 see -- look, but based on a rank, and everything I saw
14 that they were issuing commands, the way they spoke.
15 Q. In your opinion at that time, was your
16 impression that this scene was organised or was it
18 A. No. It was not chaotic. Everything was
20 Q. Did you see a person called Sljivancanin?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When did you see him?
23 A. As I was leaving the hospital.
24 Q. Can you tell us his appearance? How was he
1 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, and he
2 had the five-pointed star on his head. He had moustache
3 on. He was tall, taller than me. He also stood out
4 because he was yelling at some soldiers to move along.
5 As I was coming out of the hospital, there was
6 something stopped and so as I remember him, yelling at
7 his soldiers at that time.
8 Q. How many minutes or how long did you see
10 A. My -- I guess I saw him for no more than five
11 minutes. That is my best recollection.
12 Q. After these searches you described, where
13 were you then taken to?
14 A. They put us on buses.
15 Q. Can you tell us what kind of buses? Colour,
17 A. I think they were civilians. Maybe there were
18 some military there as well, but at that time it was
19 not very important to me.
20 Q. Do you recall how many buses there were
22 A. Five.
23 Q. Do you recall on which of those five buses
24 you were boarded?
25 A. I also do not have a full recollection but it
1 was probably fourth or fifth. I was one of the last
2 ones to board.
3 Q. Were these buses parked inside the hospital
4 yard or outside?
5 A. No. Outside in the street behind the back or
6 the rear entrance to the hospital.
7 Q. Were there guards on your bus?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were they armed?
10 A. Yes, yes they were.
11 Q. These guards, were they JNA or paramilitary
13 A. JNA guards.
14 Q. How many people were with you on that bus?
15 A. Since there are 50-55 seats on a bus, I guess
16 that was about the number of people who were on the
18 Q. Did you know one or the other of those
19 passengers on the bus?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Can you give us the name or the names?
22 A. I knew Zeloko Majer, and I think Ivan Gruber
23 and I knew some other people from sight, but since
24 I was not from Vukovar I did not know their names.
25 Q. Those two persons, were they members of your
2 A. Yes. Zeloko Majer came to Vukovar together
3 with me and Gruber arrived a bit earlier, but we were
4 all in the same unit.
5 Q. Were there also women or kids on the bus, or
6 only men?
7 A. There were no children, there was one woman
8 with his -- with her husband on the bus. Later they
9 were made to get off the bus. There were no other
11 Q. Do we know what time of day you entered the
13 A. I can only estimate it. The search did not
14 last more than half an hour, between fifteen minutes
15 and half an hour, so between 10 o'clock, 10.30, we
16 boarded the buses and moved on.
17 Q. Were you told where the trip went to?
18 A. The JNA soldiers and their superiors did not
19 tell us where we were going.
20 Q. And where did the trip go to, in fact?
21 A. We went through the city and then we came to
22 the Vukovar barracks.
23 Q. Did you go slow or fast with this bus? Do you
24 remember that?
25 A. Relatively slow through the city.
1 Q. Did it go slow because there was still
2 fighting going on?
3 A. No, no. There was no fighting anymore.
4 Q. How long did it take for you, for the bus to
5 arrive at this new destination?
6 A. I will attempt again to estimate. I think
7 about half an hour.
8 Q. What happened at the barracks? First of all,
9 did you see any soldiers around?
10 A. Well, yes. I saw soldiers because part of
11 these soldiers was escorting these buses that we were
12 on. I saw a tank, I saw an APC, buildings, JNA
13 soldiers, Chetniks.
14 Q. In your impression you had at that time, do
15 you think that the soldiers you met now around the
16 barracks were part of the same organisation like the
17 ones you have seen at the hospital?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What makes you have this impression?
20 A. They were there together, they spoke
21 together, they drove together, inspected the same
22 vehicle. They were mixed but you could tell that the
23 JNA had a leading role. They all carried weapons.
24 Q. Did those soldiers you just described enter
25 your bus?
1 A. There were two JNA guards on our bus and did
2 not allow anyone to board it. The Chetniks would come
3 to the door. They would make noise, they would curse,
4 but they were not coming onto the bus.
5 Q. Did at one point the JNA soldier came on
6 board of the bus with a list of names?
7 A. Not a soldier. There was a captain who got on
8 the bus and he read out some names and these people got
10 Q. Can you tell us the appearance of this
12 A. He looked to me to be pretty -- well, tall
13 and strong. He had a hat with a -- a blue beret with
14 the five-pointed star on it. I think he had a dark
16 Q. Thank you. Did you see what happened to the
17 people who were taken out of the bus, according to that
19 A. They were taken to another bus which was
20 parked off to the side and was empty.
21 Q. Did you see what happened to those people
22 when they entered the bus?
23 A. I only saw Chetniks beating one person. The
24 soldiers were taking him somewhere and then the
25 Chetniks ran over there and beat him. He was the only
1 one that I saw being beaten and the rest were just
2 boarding the bus and sitting down.
3 Q. How long did you remain in the vicinity of
4 these barracks?
5 A. To me it seemed very long, 2-3 hours in the
6 compound of the barracks.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us what time in the day
8 the buses left again?
9 A. I think it was about 2 o'clock, 2.30 in the
10 afternoon when we moved on.
11 Q. Into which direction did you move on?
12 A. At that time, I did not know the direction in
13 which we were going, but when we arrived at Ovcara
14 I knew that I was at Ovcara so that is where we were
15 going. At that time I actually did not know that this
16 was Ovcara.
17 Q. Were there still guards on the bus?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And were these guards the same as had entered
20 the bus already in the hospital?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did the other buses which had started with
23 you at the hospital, were still following you, your bus
24 now, or were in front of your bus?
25 A. Yes. It was a convoy, and the bus in which
1 they later separated some people out joined the convoy
2 in which we were.
3 Q. Now, you just mentioned that you arrived at
4 the place you later learned was called Ovcara.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long did it take to arrive at Ovcara?
7 A. I will give my estimate. Again it may not be
8 accurate. I think it should not have taken more than
9 half an hour.
10 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit more about the
11 location. What did you see? Were there buildings?
12 A. We first arrived at a compound. I think that
13 there were two or three structures there after the
14 left, and then we made a right turn, maybe 1, 2,
15 300 metres. That is not so important. Off to the right
16 there was this hangar where buses came to a stop.
17 I think that my bus was next to the last in this
19 When we arrived there I saw JNA soldiers,
20 Chetniks. The ones who were in front of the hospital
21 who went with us to the barracks, they were there
22 again. I saw some military vehicles, APCs, a couple of
23 civilian vehicles, and after that when we came to stop
24 people slowly started getting off the buses one by one.
25 Q. What did you see then when you personally had
1 to get off the bus?
2 A. I saw that in front of the hangar a gauntlet
3 or was -- was created by the Chetniks and people were
4 passing through there. Everything of value was -- they
5 were stripped off, and we were wearing -- the
6 Catholics, we were wearing crowns and that was all
7 taken away from us and then we would get beaten and as
8 we were passing through and entering the hangar, a pile
9 of all these valuables and belongings was growing.
10 Q. Were you personally taken from the bus and
11 then you had to run through this -- what you described
12 as, "gauntlet", or were you -- did you meet somebody?
13 A. When we got off the buses, we did not run. We
14 had to first stand there and then move slowly towards
15 the gauntlet and as I was approaching it, that is about
16 20-30 metres before you reach this gauntlet. These
17 young soldiers, the JNA soldiers would ask us, "who are
18 you, where are you from?". I guess they were
19 interested in that at that time, who we were and where
20 we were from so a soldier approached me and asked me
21 where I was from. I told him I was from Zagreb. He
22 shook his hands, and he said, "Well, you have really
23 got stuck here. I have a couple of days and I am off to
24 Ruma". I said, "Oh, I have a friend in Ruma", and he
25 asked me, "who is your friend? Where does he live?".
1 I remembered that he was somewhere near to the JNA hall
2 and I remembered the address more or less. I told him
3 the name of my friend in Ruma. He told me that he knew
4 this man.
5 I was already approaching this gauntlet, and
6 I told him, "could you please save me, if you can?",
7 and he sort of shrugged his -- he shrugged and he said,
8 "God will save you", so then at that point I reached
9 this gauntlet.
10 Q. After you had to go through this gauntlet,
11 where did you arrive at?
12 A. I arrived at a door to the hangar. I remember
13 that to the right I heard, "there is Sinilsav
14 Slovakovic, he is an Ustasha", and so they beat him and
15 I passed by and then I started getting a beating. There
16 were three soldiers who beat me. I do not recall how
17 they looked like, what they were wearing, whether they
18 were JNA, whether they were Chetniks, I do not recall
19 any of that.
20 Q. How long were you beaten? How long did this
21 time last of beating with regard to you, yourself?
22 A. Unlike the others who were beaten, I cannot
23 call what I received a big beating because it did not
24 take more than five minutes.
25 Q. What happened after those five minutes?
1 A. The young man with whom I had established
2 contact outside came as an escort of the JNA officers,
3 and there was also another soldier which is what
4 I figured out later. His friend, I guess, and now I am
5 going to try to quote as close as I remember. He
6 pointed at me, he said, "do not beat him any longer",
7 and then he turned to his officer and he said,
8 "Captain, can I save this man? He is a good man.
9 I know him from before. Can I take him out of the
10 hangar?", and the captain at that time said, "take him
11 out and keep him there so that the Chetniks would not
12 do anything". After that, I was taken out.
13 MR WAESPI: Maybe that is the right time,
14 your Honours, to have the break.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time do you need to
16 complete your examination?
17 MR. WAESPI: Maybe quarter of an hour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Then let us have
19 a break now and we will resume the hearing at 2.30
21 (1.00 pm)
22 (Luncheon adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, your Honours. I would
4 like to continue examination of Witness K.
5 Witness K, you said just before the lunch
6 break that you were taken out or rather saved, as you
7 have stated it, by this solder from Ruma who was
8 together with somebody you described as a captain. Now
9 can you first tell us what the solder from Ruma looked
10 like? His appearance.
11 A. He was of my height, about 1.75 metres. He
12 had light brown hair. He had a green jacket on him,
13 something like a Spitfire jacket, like a pilot's
14 jacket. As for arms, we called it a pump gun, and he
15 looked young. He was not more than twenty, for sure. He
16 looked as if he did not even shave yet.
17 Q. Would you describe him as a JNA soldier?
18 A. He said himself that he was a JNA soldier,
19 and that he was due to go home any day now, in two or
20 three days' time.
21 Q. Now, turning to the other person you
22 described as a captain, can you describe him?
23 A. He was taller than me, heavier build. He had
24 a blue beret on him with a five-cornered star on it,
25 and almost certain that he is the same captain that
1 appeared at the Vukovar barracks who entered the bus
2 with a list of names.
3 Q. So you have seen this person before, the same
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Now, where were you taken outside the hangar?
7 A. I was taken to the side outside the hangar,
8 next to the hangar wall by the door.
9 Q. And what did you do there and for how long?
10 A. We stood there, this group, all of us who had
11 been set aside, I did not do anything. I just stood
12 there. I was guarded by the soldiers. That is all.
13 Q. Was the door open, the one you just left, who
14 led into the hangar?
15 A. Yes. The door was open, but I should like to
16 go back for a moment. You asked me how much time
17 I spent there. In my view, it was at least an hour and
18 a half that I stood there outside the hangar.
19 Q. Was this soldier from Ruma all the time with
20 you during that hour?
21 A. Most of the time and when he was not there
22 then this other friend of his who was also a soldier.
23 Q. Was there a lot of coming and going out of
24 that door to the hangar, in the time you have been
25 waiting outside?
1 A. Yes. Mostly the soldiers, the JNA soldiers
2 were coming in, going out, and the Chetniks.
3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that there were
4 other people who have been waiting with you and who
5 have been guarded also by the one or the two soldiers.
6 Can you name us these people who were with you?
7 A. (redacted), Perkofer, Zakalic, Perkovic,
8 that is it. I know that there were seven of us. I do
9 not know all the names.
10 Q. Did you see Sljivancanin at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know what happened to those two
13 persons you mentioned earlier who were with you on the
14 bus? Gruber Mijor?
15 A. When we entered the hangar I did not see
16 Gruber, but I saw Mijor because he was close to me, and
17 he had his head and arm bandaged, and I saw him and he
18 was being beaten, so they stayed behind in the hangar.
19 Q. During the time you were waiting outside the
20 hangar, did you see a woman who was crying and who
21 approached one of the officers?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Can you describe to us what that incident
25 A. I do not know where she came from, but she
1 suddenly appeared. There were several officers there
2 and she was crying. She was crying and begging that her
3 son be brought from the hangar because her son had
4 nothing to do with the army or the war, because he was
5 retarded from birth. In response to this, this JNA
6 officer went inside to the hangar and brought this
7 young man out and I remember that he told her, "go away
8 now and you must know that it was Colonel" -- now I am
9 not sure whether he said Ivankovic or Ivanovic, "who
10 saved your son".
11 Q. And your impression was that this officer who
12 was together with this woman, he was addressing himself
13 as a Colonel Ivankovic or Ivanovic. He was not talking
14 about somebody else but himself.
15 A. He went with her inside and he brought the
16 young boy out, so probably he was talking about
18 Q. Can you describe to us his appearance?
19 A. I will try. He was taller than me, between
20 1.80 and 1.85 metres in my assessment. He had some grey
21 hair, he was of a strong build, he had male voice, and
22 I know he was wearing a long soldier's coat.
23 Q. The woman you just described, was she the
24 only woman you have seen at this farming location?
25 A. Yes. She was the only woman that I saw.
1 Q. After this waiting period of approximately
2 one hour, were you taken back into the hangar?
3 A. Yes. We were all briefly taken back to the
4 hangar for our names to be listed, registered.
5 Q. Do you recall just before you entered the
6 hangar, was it already dark at that time or was it
7 daylight? How would you describe the situation?
8 A. It was already getting dark. It was dusk. One
9 might say it was dark.
10 Q. How did this registering proceed? Was there
11 a table, and who was putting down the names, if
13 A. I cannot remember whether there was a table
14 or some boxes. I cannot remember that, but I know that
15 two or three soldiers, JNA soldiers were sitting at
16 that improvised table and taking down the names. It was
17 quite dark inside. There was a low light, a dim light.
18 Q. Were there also other sources of light except
19 those bulbs or this low light you were referring to?
20 A. I remember that the JNA soldiers parked
21 a vehicle in front of the door and switched on the
22 lights so as to light up the interior of the hangar.
23 Q. Now, if you looked around the hangar, did you
24 still see people being beaten at that time?
25 A. They did not beat them any more then.
1 Q. Can you tell us how the scene looked? Were
2 the people standing or lying on the ground?
3 A. Some people were sitting down. Others were
4 moving around, lying on the floor and there were some
5 who were lying without any movement.
6 Q. How many people were in the hangar at that
8 A. There were all of our people who had come to
9 the hangar, and about 100 of their soldiers, though
10 I beg the court not to take me by my word when I give
11 this number because I am not sure.
12 Q. The people who were lying around on the
13 ground, what was your impression? Were those injured?
14 A. Since it was cold, they probably were not
15 lying there for no reason. They were probably injured
16 and that is why they were lying down.
17 Q. Did you hear any sound coming from them? From
18 those people?
19 A. There were no loud cries or screams as were
20 heard during the beating but one could hear subdued
22 Q. What did the soldiers do at this time? Were
23 they standing around? Can you describe this scene?
24 A. They were inside in the hangar with weapons
25 making sure that no one tried to escape. Some of them
1 were outside in front of the hangar. I am referring to
2 all of them, including the JNA soldiers and the
4 Q. When you were taken out, again, of the
5 hangar, did you again have an opportunity to talk to
6 this JNA soldier, the young one?
7 A. We got into a van, a combi, and we were able
8 to talk. I did talk to him.
9 Q. Did you ask him what was happening to those
10 people inside the hangar?
11 A. I asked him what would happen to them. He
12 said, "Well, they will probably all be executed".
13 Q. Was there a moment when you heard some sounds
14 like machinery?
15 A. I heard that before entering the hangar for
16 the registration. When the beating subsided, when it
17 became quite silent, I heard some sounds from maybe
18 half a kilometre away. I thought at first that they may
19 be tanks, though at that point in time there was no
20 longer any need for tanks.
21 Q. My last question to this part at Ovcara, your
22 impression, again, also as a soldier of this scene at
23 Ovcara farm; was it organised, was it quite calm,
24 people were just doing their jobs, whatever they were
25 assigned to, or was it just a chaotic situation? Can
1 you describe your impression?
2 A. I shall tell you what my reflections are
3 because everything was known; that we would go to such
4 a such a place, we would get out in such a way, there
5 would be this gauntlet. It was known exactly where our
6 people would be put, that is their prisoners, within
7 the hangar. There was probably an officer of theirs
8 with a whistle and every few minutes, I do not know how
9 often, he would whistle which was a sign for those to
10 take over for another shift, to take over with the
11 beating, because then one group would have a rest while
12 the others took over. Then this registration of people,
13 therefore, in my view, all of this was organised and it
14 was known in advance what would be done with us and
15 what their intentions were. That is my judgment.
16 Q. This person with the whistle, did you see
17 this person?
18 A. I did see him, but I could not try to
19 describe him because I really can no longer remember.
20 Q. Only a few questions to what happened
21 afterwards. You were taken away from Ovcara in a kind
22 of vehicle. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where were you taken to?
25 A. They took us to Velepromet. We stayed there
1 for a couple of minutes. At Velepromet they would not
2 take us in, as far as I can remember. Allegedly there
3 was not any room for us.
4 Q. Where were you transferred to after
6 A. After Velepromet we were taken to a textile
7 factory, Modateks.
8 Q. How far away is that from Velepromet?
9 A. Not far. We got there very soon. Maybe
10 a kilometre, but I think it is even less. I do not know
11 the town well, so I cannot really tell.
12 Q. Did you spend the night in Modateks?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was there a moment when the paramilitary
15 soldiers or Chetniks, or whatever you call them,
17 A. Yes. They arrived in the evening, and then
18 they came in the morning as well, the next day, to
20 Q. Did they tell you anything?
21 A. In the evening they shouted, "what are men
22 doing here", who had brought them, that they would kill
23 us as well as those who had brought us, because at
24 Modateks there were elderly people, women and children,
25 and they were supposed to be transferred to Croatia.
1 Q. After you had spent the night at Modateks,
2 were you transferred to another location the next day?
3 A. In the morning, the next day we were
4 transferred to Velepromet.
5 Q. How long did you stay in Velepromet?
6 A. I stayed that day until about midnight.
7 Q. And the next day?
8 A. The next day in the morning on 22nd December
9 we were driven to Sremska Mitrovica but before that we
10 were transported to the barracks.
11 Q. The same barracks you have been a couple of
12 days ago, the JNA barracks. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Do you recall, were there again beatings at
15 those JNA barracks?
16 A. I personally was not beaten at all. What
17 I could -- as far as I could see, no one was beaten, as
18 far as I could see. In fact, they gave us water, they
19 gave us some canned food to eat. That was it.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, your
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
23 Cross-examined by MR. FILA
24 Q. Your Honours, in your previous statement,
25 witness, you did not remember exactly all the persons
1 you were with, those seven people. You now mention the
2 names. When did you learn of the names of those people?
3 A. I remembered Perkovic and Berghofer. Maybe
4 I did not mention this in the statement. Perkovic? Did
5 I mention Perkovic? Am I talking too quickly?
6 Q. Yes. We are speaking the same language, you
8 In your statement, among the six of us I only
9 remember the surname Berghofer or Berkhofer. You now
10 said that there were seven and you remembered the other
12 A. I learned later who they were.
13 Q. Very well. At the moment you were taken, the
14 seven of you, in front of the hangar. Was it daytime
15 when you were taken out of the hangar outside, where
16 you stood for an hour and a half? So before the
18 A. Yes. It was daylight. Only we did not all
19 seven come out at the same time. We came out gradually,
20 one by one. We did not all six or seven of us go out
22 Q. I understand, but when the last of you came
23 out, was it still daylight?
24 A. I think it was, yes. I think.
25 Q. After you came out of the hangar was any one
1 of you beaten?
2 A. As far as I can recall, no.
3 Q. My question is in the hangar, not in front of
4 the hangar.
5 A. Just a moment, please. Could you repeat the
6 question, please?
7 Q. After all seven of you were outside it was
8 daylight, in front of the hangar. From that moment
9 until you left in the combi-van when dark fell, was
10 anyone beaten in the hangar or outside out, of you
12 A. I think not, but it need not be the proper
13 answer. I know that I personally was not beaten by
15 Q. You are a soldier, so it is easier for me to
16 ask you. What colour were the uniforms you saw in the
17 hangar? What types of uniforms?
18 A. I saw the uniform, the olive green uniform of
19 the JNA, I saw camouflage uniforms, and I saw Chetniks
20 who were dressed in various ways. They had parts of
21 uniforms, some of them were in civilian clothes, some
22 of them are camouflage sweaters, and they had their
23 typical hats, the fur hats that they wore.
24 Q. The JNA officers, and generally the officers.
25 What colour uniforms were they wearing?
1 A. This captain had a camouflage uniform, for
2 instance, and these others, the one who was a colonel,
3 Ivanovic or Ivankovic, he had an olive green uniform
4 and there were a couple of other officers with him who
5 also had the same uniform.
6 Q. You said earlier on in your statement that
7 you had the impression that this Ivanovic or Ivankovic,
8 some others mention him as, "Jovankovic", that he was
9 the commander-in-chief at that moment. Can I read it
10 from your statement if you do not remember?
11 A. That was my impression. I can explain why
12 I had that impression.
13 Q. No, I am just checking whether you still
14 abide by what you said in your statement.
15 Any defenders like yourself, defenders of
16 Vukovar, did they surrender and remain in uniform?
17 A. I think not. I did not see any one of them.
18 Maybe there were some but I never saw them.
19 Q. What colour was your uniform? Similar to the
20 JNA? No?
21 A. No, I am sorry. Let me explain. We had
22 camouflage uniforms and it was a different uniform from
23 the JNA camouflage uniforms.
25 Q. But in camouflage colours, right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Concerning the weapons that the defence units
3 had in Vukovar, did they have any mortars?
4 A. In the areas where I was, that is the only
5 one that I can speak of, no, there were not.
6 Q. In the area where you were, were you at any
7 time in the front-line from where you could see the road
8 and Vukovar, Negoslavci?
9 A. I do not know. I think I probably did not.
10 Q. Could you explain to me why did you feel the
11 need to take off the uniform even though you were part
12 of the regular units?
13 A. Very simple. I thought that this was just --
14 I wanted to survive, so I thought that I would be
15 killed -- it was more likely that I would be killed if
16 I had stayed on.
17 Q. What about the Zengers? Would you not have
18 been better protected as a soldier?
19 A. That may be your opinion.
20 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor you said that it
21 was Chetniks and the paramilitary formations and
22 perhaps they were not just Chetniks. They went with you
23 from the hospital to the barracks, to the Ovcara?
24 A. I did not say that all of them went there.
25 Q. That is not what I said either.
1 A. I called them Chetniks because they called
2 themselves that.
3 Q. They are all the same in my opinion too. But
4 my question was, did that mean that they escorted the
5 JNA throughout this travel, some of them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you answered the -- you know, I am
8 trying to slow down.
9 When you said that this was all prepared,
10 that they were acting together, you think that they
11 were part of the preparation together with the JNA?
12 A. I do not think that they were preparing it
13 together but I think that they just wanted part of the
15 Q. So, your impression was that they were
16 following, escorting the JNA so that they would have
17 their piece of the action?
18 A. Yes, that was my impression.
19 Q. Since you took part in a battle, did the JNA
20 know the configuration of terrain around Vukovar?
21 A. Since they took it, I guess they knew it well
23 Q. Do not take it wrong, I am just trying to ask
24 you, because you are competent for that, you are
25 a soldier.
1 A. Very well. As a soldier I can give you
2 certain answers and not some others, but in principle
3 I did not understand what your question was, so could
4 you please repeat it?
5 Q. Well, just what you asked them, if an army is
6 about to take a town, do they know the terrain? That
7 was the military question.
8 A. Yes, I understand that, and the answer is
10 Q. This Basinger, who is he?
11 A. He was a member of our unit who changed his
12 name into Harlan Von Basinger.
13 Q. Do you know what his name was before the war?
14 You do not have to answer that.
15 A. No, I would rather not.
16 Q. Did you perhaps see a Serb with you, and
17 a gentleman that looked like a professor?
18 A. He may have been, I do not remember.
19 Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.
20 A. Thank you too.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Any re-examination from the
23 MR. WAESPI: No.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: I have a couple of questions.
25 One point. You said that you joined the Croatian army
1 on 10th August 1991. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: You said you signed
4 a contract for three years.
5 Now, I wonder whether you may remember when
6 you first engaged in some sort of fighting against the
7 adversary after joining the Croatian army, fighting or
8 military encounters with enemy soldiers, enemy
10 A. In September of 1991. 10th September,
11 8th September, somewhere around there.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: And do you remember when the
13 adversary or enemy combatants consisted of JNA members
14 or so-called what you called Chetniks, paramilitary
15 groups, or both, or were they together, fighting
16 together against your unit?
17 A. At that time I did not see them. They
18 attacked us. They shelled us and then withdrew from
19 this position. That was the way we engaged for the
20 first time. I could not say whether it was Chetniks or
21 the JNA. It was the enemy who attacked us. So maybe it
22 is not important, even, right now.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: But was there any time when
24 you had any fighting against paramilitary groups only?
25 I wonder whether you had any opportunity to -- any
1 occasion to fight against only these groups, or were
2 you unable to make any distinction between the various
3 people making up the enemy combatants?
4 A. My first real war, or fighting was in
5 Vukovar. All the rest to me was not war. We were
6 shelled at one point and we withdrew and I had no
7 contact with them until Vukovar.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I have another
9 question. You said that you entered the hospital on
10 17th or 18th November and you -- the hospital in
11 Vukovar -- because you had decided to surrender.
12 I wonder why you went to the hospital. Normally for
13 a member of a military unit wishing to surrender the
14 normal way out would be to simply to surrender to the
15 enemy combatant, so for what particular reason did you
16 go to the hospital?
17 A. Because of my entire unit which came with me
18 from Zagreb. I was the only one left who was not
19 wounded. When I went to visit my fellow combatants in
20 the hospital, I was considering whether to flee the
21 city, try to break through, or not. That was chaotic
22 times and many of the commanding officers were not to
23 be found, so the defence was not organised any longer.
24 There were some small groups that were wandering around
25 town in those last days, so my assessment was that
1 I would be the safest at a hospital, together with my
2 fellow comrades and that I would share the fate with
3 them, so that was my assessment.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No further
5 questions. I wonder whether there is any objection to
6 the witness being released. Yes, Mr. Waespi?
7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I have one last
8 question if you will allow me.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
10 MR. WAESPI: Was there any reason you were
11 reluctant to surrender directly to the enemy troops?
12 You said it was safer in the hospital. Can you...
13 A. It was a simple reason. I was afraid to just
14 simply walk out of a house into the street. I was
15 afraid of that kind of surrender. If I were in a larger
16 crowd, in a group of people, I felt safer that way.
17 That was the reason. Is that clear enough?
18 Q. Thank you. Yes. No further questions.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So no objection?
20 MR. WAESPI: Not from the Prosecution.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much for coming
22 to testify. You may be released.
23 A. Thank you too, your Honours.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 MR. NIEMANN: The next witness is Dragutin
1 Berghofer, if your Honours please. He does not request
2 any protective measures.
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Berghofer, would you
5 please make the solemn declaration?
6 A. Yes.
7 DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER (sworn)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
9 A. Thank you.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?
11 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
12 Q. Would you please state your full name?
13 A. Dragutin Berghofer.
14 Q. And what is your date of birth?
15 A. 29th October 1940.
16 Q. And where were you born?
17 A. In Osijek.
18 Q. And where did you live for the most part of
19 your life?
20 A. In Vukovar, as of 1946.
21 Q. And what was your occupation?
22 A. Since the age of 18 I was an upholsterer, an
23 assistant, apprentice to an upholsterer and that is
24 what I did all the time, decoration, interior
1 Q. Did you do that in the city of Vukovar and
2 the surroundings?
3 A. Yes, yes, all the time.
4 Q. And did you have a business in Vukovar?
5 A. I did, for the last fifteen years. Now it is
6 sixteen. To be precise, as of 1979.
7 Q. Mr. Berghofer, do you recall being visited by
8 Mr. Kevin Curtis from the Office of the Prosecutor of
9 the International Tribunal on 16th and 17th June 1995
10 when you were interviewed by him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember that the interview being
13 conducted actually in the English language and taken
14 down in the English language, but it being interpreted
15 to you as it progressed?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember at the end of the interview
18 the document, the statement being read back to you and
19 did you affix your signature to each page of the
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at what I now
23 show you, please? If you could just look at the top
24 copy of the documents that I am now giving you and
25 perhaps they could be allocated the next exhibit number
1 in order, if your Honours please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 49.
3 MR. NIEMANN: And there is a translation of
4 that document, if that could -- into the Croatian
5 language and if that could be allocated a number, too.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 49A.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, looking at the
8 document that is now in front of you, do you see
9 affixed to the bottom of each page of that document
10 your signature?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that statement.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? Thank you.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, in addition to the
15 statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor
16 in relation to the events in Vukovar and Ovcara, did
17 you also give a statement to officers of the Croatian
18 Ministry of the Interior, the Vukovar police section of
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall that you gave this
22 statement on or about 1st June 1992?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And was that statement given at a place in
1 A. Yes, it was.
2 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at what I now
3 show you, please? I am aware of the fact that,
4 I apprehend that Mr. Fila is going to object, but I will
5 certainly stop in time for him to argue it at the
6 appropriate moment, your Honours.
7 Now, in respect of this document that you now
8 have, have you had an opportunity to read through the
9 Croatian version of the document previous to coming
10 into court; this document is not signed by you, is it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. It does have a signature appearing at the end
13 of the statement. Do you know whose signature that
14 relates to? You can look at the document.
15 A. I think it was a policeman's signature.
16 I think he was a uniformed policeman.
17 Q. And the circumstances of you giving this
18 interview, can you just explain them briefly to the
19 court as to how this document that came into existence,
20 so far as you know?
21 A. When I was released from Sremska Mitrovica on
22 27th March 1992, we arrived in Zagreb, and immediately
23 they took down our personal information, who we were,
24 where we were, what did we experience, and this is how
25 the whole story started. Then we were put up at one
1 place as refugees and then they sent this policeman and
2 I gave a statement.
3 Q. And from reading through this statement are
4 you satisfied that it is the statement that you gave to
5 this police officer in Zagreb on that day?
6 A. Some things are correct, but some things are
7 a little bit... I do not know. Either he was a bit
8 confused or I was a little bit confused.
9 Q. And perhaps, if you can -- I think you know
10 what that relates to and if you can just tell us in
11 general terms, what parts of it you feel may be
12 slightly inaccurate.
13 A. I am most confused about the timetable at
14 Ovcara. Can I look at this? Yes, well, here, right
15 here. Your Honour, we were leaving Ovcara at around
16 5 o'clock in the evening. It was already getting dark,
17 but -- so the times indicated for Ovcara are not really
19 Q. That is the time that you left Ovcara?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. But otherwise than that, from your
22 reading of the statement does it appear to be correct?
23 A. Well, yes. Usually, whatever interpreter...
24 maybe the interpreters were confused here and there
25 a little bit, but for the most part this is it.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Now, at this stage I would seek
2 to tender it, but I understand that Mr. Fila wishes to
3 raise an objection.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Fila?
5 MR. FILA: Before I raise the objection, just
6 to refer to this time. What time, if it was not 5 pm,
7 what time was it there?
8 A. May I answer this, please?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. The real time was 1700 hours, so 5 o'clock,
11 5.15 in the afternoon because when we got into the
12 van --
13 MR. FILA: I am sorry, that is not what the
14 question was. I think you said 5 pm for when you left,
15 but what time did you put down there?
16 A. The correct time was 1700 hours when we left.
17 But what was written down is that it was 5 o'clock when
18 we arrived at Ovcara.
19 MR. FILA: Very well. Your Honours, this is
20 the objection. This is not a statement of the accused.
21 Sorry, not the accused. The witness statement. This is
22 not a witness statement. If you look at the document,
23 at the bottom right corner, in small letters, it is
24 pursuant to Article 151, paragraph 2 of the Criminal
25 Code of the Republic of Yugoslavia. This is what the
1 police officers take and it is never used in the court.
2 For us it was what we used to call, "the pretrial
3 proceedings". You have a copy of the law on criminal
4 procedure there. This was in the case of the General
5 Djukic, so a long time ago. You can double-check that.
6 I do not see any need to provide this as evidence,
7 a document that is not used in this kind of procedure
8 in Yugoslavia and we have a live witness who is going
9 to testify to what actually happened. Why would we
10 learn about these things indirectly when we have
11 a witness who can give a live testimony?
12 At the same time, I would submit that I am
13 not going to oppose if the Prosecution calls this
14 policeman as a witness. That is fine by me.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask
16 Mr. Niemann whether this document had been disclosed to
17 the defence?
18 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Not to the court, however.
20 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, it is not an
21 OTP statement.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So you do not
23 object to the -- you do object to this document being
24 tendered into evidence.
25 MR. FILA: Yes, because it is a second-hand
1 piece of evidence, and I do not understand what the
2 purpose of it is, anyway.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is sustained.
4 We cannot accept that document in evidence.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Well, I will have it marked for
6 identification, if your Honours please. May it be
7 marked for identification, and allocated the next
8 number in order, thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Bos, did you
10 comply with the request?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, that will be done.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, I wish to take you
14 now to the events in Vukovar in 1991 and in particular,
15 around 24th August 1991. Can you recall back then at
16 that time and date?
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. What happened?
19 A. I would just like to request to go back to
20 about 24 days before 24th August because I was the
21 owner of two businesses. I would -- I was at that time
22 still working, though the shells, a few shells were
23 falling in the town. We, the locals in Vukovar believed
24 that nothing would happen. We did not even consider
25 that such catastrophe would take place. So two or three
1 days I was loading coal into my cellar and my house is
2 about 20 metres away from the JNA barracks and there
3 was a 90 millimetre barrelled gun pointed and
4 anti-aircraft machine-gun pointed while I was unloading
5 this, shovelling this coal. This was just a few days
6 before this 24th, and I had no clue as to what would
7 happen to me on the night of 24th and this is right
8 after midnight, five minutes after midnight, so I came
9 into my bedroom, I turned on the lights, just to see
10 whether I had made the bed, and I turned it off
11 immediately, and a tank was pointing at me, just about
12 where you are, at that distance, and as I lay in bed
13 they opened fire and you can -- I am ashamed to say how
14 I felt. It was a terrible thunder and a big noise. I do
15 not know how to say this, but it was -- I was lucky.
16 There was a little retaining wall there. Actually the
17 wall below the window, and so I was not hit. So,
18 I crawled out of my bed and I crawled into another room
19 and I stayed in the -- in there until the morning of
20 25th when I heard some voices and then I looked around.
21 I see my neighbour, Mile Latinovic and he was
22 talking to a soldier who was on a guard duty, on this
23 tank. I said, "Mile, who praised me so well that they
24 did this to my house?". Then he said, "Drago, look.
25 They did that to me too", and I looked, and his house
1 was intact.
2 They targeted several houses between me and
3 my neighbour Slavko Posonjak, so they targeted his
4 house, then they spared one and then two other houses
5 they did it to, and then Ms. Segavac's, and then they
6 took turns between mine, Slavko Posonjak and
7 Ms. Segavac and they took turns for a couple of hours
8 they kept shooting at the house, these houses. And
9 a little later after around 4 o'clock the fire subsided
10 a little bit, and in the morning, when I heard this
11 voice, it was as if nothing had happened. I took
12 a little motorcycle, I left my elderly mother in the
13 backyard and I set off to where my shop was.
14 When I speak of my businesses I had
15 five properties. I had a big house next to the barracks
16 about 110 square metres. The rest did not have upper
17 floors, but they had bathrooms and they had amenities.
18 So, I had these two shops. That was not strictly in the
19 centre of town, and -- but these houses were built
20 well, and they had basements that were made there
21 during Austro-Hungarian times, if not the Turkish
22 times so I decided to stay there.
23 We all had believed that nothing like this
24 could happen and then, starting on -- with that 24th,
25 these shells kept coming from the direction of
1 Negoslavci, Backa Palanka, all directions, so that
2 I took shelter in my basement which, during the war,
3 also had 40 women and children staying there.
4 Q. Now, just stopping you for a moment, did you
5 have any members of the family, your family with you in
6 the basement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who did you have?
9 A. Later on my mother joined me because my house
10 was blown up with a mortar, so I no longer had a roof,
11 then she came, then my daughter, my wife, as well,
12 though we were not married but we were living together,
13 and my other daughter, with two grandsons.
14 Q. And what were your daughters names?
15 A. Vesna. Vesna and Jasna.
16 Q. And what happened to Vesna?
17 A. They took Vesna by the so-called JNA and
18 I never saw her again.
19 Q. Who took her?
20 A. I have learned now who took her away and if
21 I have to tell I will, but she was taken away by
22 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army and some people
23 who we called Chetniks.
24 Q. And have you ever seen her since?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. And --
2 A. I have had contact with a man who took her
3 away but he says that he had to do it. He is in
5 Q. And I think you said your wife was with you
6 in the shelter as well.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did anything happen to her during the
10 A. She is -- she was the only victim among the
11 40 women who were in this basement of mine. She
12 was killed on 6th November 1991.
13 Q. How was she killed?
14 A. Your Honour, shall we say that the Danube is
15 behind my back and the shell fell in front of my shop.
16 It fragmented, and the shrapnel flew in through the
17 window and hit the wall of the shop which is the wall
18 linked to the basement, and at that very moment she was
19 smoking in the doorway, so as not to bother the
20 children and the elderly people. She was smoking there,
21 and she was hit here in the neck.
22 Q. Now, were any of the people with you in the
23 shelter during this period of time armed?
24 A. As far as I know, no, but I cannot claim that
25 out of all of us that were around there, 2,000, 1,500,
1 one could not count and perhaps some of them were armed
2 and some of them may have come to have lunch with us.
3 I personally have never fired a shot.
4 Q. And were women and children in the shelters
5 as well as men?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how were the people fed during the period
8 of the siege?
9 A. You see, Vukovar was quite a well-off town,
10 and as I have already said we never thought that such
11 a disaster would occur. Well, it was possible to pass
12 through Marice and Bogdanovci, that was the only open
13 way out of Vukovar, because on all the other sides were
14 the locals and the JNA army, so we received aid from
15 Jakovo which was brought in by truck, then there were
16 some stores that had been abandoned. Meat was not
17 a problem, but there was no electricity so there was no
18 point in slaughtering an animal when you cannot eat it
19 immediately and by next day it is no longer good. It
20 goes bad. So, we only had one big cauldron, and we were
21 eating. There were Serbs and Hungarians and Skipotars
22 with us, representatives of various ethnic groups. We
23 never asked who was what; when the shells fell we were
24 altogether in the basement.
25 Q. And in addition to having food for yourself,
1 did you also have occasion to supply food to other
3 A. Yes. I did. Potato was very much in demand.
4 There was a monastery there and a church. There was not
5 a single potato. Then there was no sugar. Everything
6 stopped working but still, as I said, there were
7 abandoned grocery shops, so we would carry food to the
8 hospital and to the monastery and in the centre, to the
9 old people's homes where some old women were very cold
10 because they had no heating, so roughly 3,000 people
11 would go from this building, the so-called, "Borovka",
12 to -- they would cover 50 metres to get to my basement
13 and my shop.
14 Q. Did there come a time during the siege of
15 Vukovar when you and some others attempted to escape?
16 A. Well, we kept thinking about fleeing, but
17 whenever we made such a decision we would hear over the
18 transistor radio that a truce had been signed, that
19 there would not be no fire any more, and as soon as
20 dark fell about 7 pm, the shells started falling again
21 on that poor city of Vukovar. And since I had a certain
22 amount of money, some capital, you know how things are.
23 I had to save it for as long as I could save it up.
24 Afterwards, everything was -- all our houses were
25 without roofs, everything was destroyed.
1 One of my houses burned for three days. At
2 first, some fire brigades tried to extinguish the fire
3 but you know what happened to them? They never did it
4 again because high up in some buildings there were
5 snipers of the so-called JNA and they would target them
6 very easily. So that there were about 15 fire brigade
7 men who were killed in Vukovar. Some of them were even
8 killed in hospital when the cistern truck was hit when
9 it was bringing water to the hospital.
10 Q. I asked you, did you recall a time when you
11 tried to actually leave Vukovar, to try and force your
12 way out.
13 A. Yes, I did. I remember this was somewhere
14 around the end of September. Food, we were running
15 short of food for the children. I had a five month old
16 grandson in a carrier. I would never have found him.
17 Q. Did you succeed in escaping?
18 A. I did not manage to escape. Afterwards, when
19 I wanted to escape, it was already too late.
20 Q. Now, then later did you then go to the
21 hospital in Vukovar in order to leave the city?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And when was that? Can you remember?
24 A. This was on 17th November 1991. I think that
25 all the remaining people from Vukovar congregated
1 towards the municipality building which is 300 metres
2 from the hospital and someone decided, they called it
3 a breakthrough, but there is no breakthrough with the
4 two or three automatic rifles and 150 men, so I tried
5 to go with them but a shell fell. Two men were killed
6 on the spot. I panicked, and I went back to the
7 hospital. Around 11.30 at night on 17th November it was
8 night-time, and there was a drizzle.
9 Q. When you got to the hospital, were there
10 other people there as well as yourself?
11 A. There was no room for a fly in the hospital.
12 There were so many people cramming those corridors, not
13 counting the wounded. There were up to three to a bed.
14 It was packed full. I cannot really judge, but there
15 was not room for anyone else.
16 Q. Where did you stay when you went to the
18 A. I was in the new hospital building because
19 upstairs it was totally shelled, so I was not on the
20 floor, on the top floor, but on the ground floor. That
21 night I never slept at all. I was hungry in the
22 morning. The hospital had no food to give any more, so
23 I had some, "Babyveta", and, "Laktovit", in the
24 infants' department because though it was destroyed,
25 there was some of this powder milk and that is how
1 I spent the night between 17th and 18th and the
2 19th and the 20th.
3 Q. And did you stay in any particular room,
4 anyone's room in the hospital?
5 A. Yes, I did. From 18th until 19th I found
6 a little children's bed and I spent the night in it,
7 crouching in it until the 19th in the morning, and then
8 around 11 o'clock in the morning Dr. Ivankovic saw me
9 and asked me what I was doing there. I said, "where
10 everyone else is, I am", so he said, "come over here to
11 my office and sit with me".
12 Q. And did anything happen when you were sitting
13 in Dr. Ivankovic's office?
14 A. I was not alone with him. Perkovic was there
15 too, Tomislav. I think it was Tomislav, something like
16 that. Perkovic, anyway. Then there were some nurses,
17 then two other doctors, there were about eight or ten
18 of us in that room.
19 Q. Now, what was the next thing that happened?
20 A. I think it was around the 19th in the
21 afternoon when I was already with the doctor and these
22 other nurses and Tihomir Perkovic, the doctor's son
23 came. His name is Goran. He kissed him, but also some
24 reservists of the JNA, local people who were working in
25 the hospital. They were exchanging greetings, kissing
1 some people, so I saw, I just cannot recall this moment
2 the surname, but I will remember later on, during my
3 testimony, and they immediately started questioning
4 some of the wounded.
5 Q. Now, who are, "they"? Who was questioning
6 some of the wounded?
7 A. He was, he was the porter in the hospital.
8 His name was Bogdan, Kuzmic Bogdan.
9 Q. And was he dressed in a uniform of any sort?
10 A. He was a reserve. He belonged to the... how
11 shall I put it... paramilitary of the JNA.
12 Q. And did Dr. Ivankovic's son have
13 a conversation with his father when he was there?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. What did he say to his father?
16 A. Once they had hugged each other he extended
17 his hand to me as well and to everyone else, and then
18 he said, "why did you not leave when I told you? We
19 wanted to set Vukovar on fire with napalm bombs and
20 where is the granny", his father said, "a bomb fell on
21 the hospital and she got killed", referring to the
22 mother-in-law of Ivankovic and the young boy's
23 grandmother and he said, "I am sorry that she has not
24 lived to see me wearing this hat with a cockade",
25 though he was actually wearing a helmet with a five
1 cornered star.
2 Q. When you say, "she", is that a translation
3 error or did you mean "he"?
4 A. He was talking and referring to his
5 grandmother who got killed. I do not quite understand
6 what you are asking me.
7 Q. I think that clears it up. What did the
8 father, Dr. Ivankovic then say to his son?
9 A. "Keep quiet Goran, keep quiet and go out. Go.
10 Go", because Dr. Ivankovic stayed in the hospital until
11 the bitter end doing his work.
12 Q. Had you seen any reservists, paramilitaries
13 or JNA soldiers at the hospital prior to this time?
14 A. No, maybe half an hour before that, shall we
15 say it was 3.30 in the afternoon. That was the first
16 time that the reservists, JNA reservists appeared.
17 Q. And I think you said that -- earlier in your
18 evidence -- that they then started to ask people
19 questions. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes. It was roughly at the same time when
21 this young boy came to see his father, then Bogdan
22 Kuzmic went off and this was happening within a time
23 span of 10 or 15 minutes. It all happened quickly.
24 Stanko Duvnjak was questioned and he was sitting in the
25 corridor. I remember Stanko saying, "what could I do?",
1 and they questioned some others, but believe me, I know
2 the person, but if I cannot remember his name and
3 surname it is of no good, is it.
4 If you are at all interested, by then it was
5 already dark, the 19th, it was evening. And we spent
6 that whole night sitting in that room and then I may
7 again be wrong by about half an hour, well, you know
8 when one is afraid and one does not take notes, but
9 roughly, it was about 1.15 or 1.30. Pistol shots were
10 heard. Six. Six of these shots. They were quite far
11 away, but were clearly audible. And then there was
12 a pause of about 40 minutes and then again we heard
13 shots, but from the same pistol. So, within a span of
14 two hours that pistol fired 18 shots. It all ended
15 about quarter past three in the morning.
16 Q. I would just like to take you back just
17 a little bit through what you were saying about the
18 people being questioned. Do you know why they were
19 being questioned? The purpose for this questioning by
20 these reservists? JNA reservists?
21 A. Well, you see, Stanko Duvnjak was a policeman
22 in Yugoslavia, and Bogdan Kuzmic was a porter in the
23 hospital. Now, why they were being questioned -- I just
24 heard him saying, "what could I do?". That is all
25 I know about that, about Stanko Duvnjak and I did not
1 see him. He is not around any more.
2 Q. Now, what happened the next morning, that is
3 20th November 1991?
4 A. In the course of that night when I heard
5 those pistol shots, I could not really tell you exactly
6 how many trucks and buses were driven out of the
7 hospital with people on board, but all night one could
8 hear these trucks and buses. You could hear them
9 roaring off, and later I learned about this at
10 Velepromet which is about 4 or 5 kilometres from the
11 hospital, 4 kilometres in the direction of Negoslavci,
12 outside of town.
13 Then morning came, and about 7 am a tall,
14 moustached officer walked in with a flak jacket,
15 Tito-ist cap, a five-cornered star. I cannot remember
16 the name, because I left that army ages ago, so I could
17 no longer recognise the ranks, and he was shouting out
18 aloud, "doctor, what are you waiting for? It is a state
19 of war! The lightly wounded and the civilians should go
20 to the left and the left, for us, the people of
21 Vukovar, was known as the Sapudl. On one side was the
22 Ivalolarejpa Street and on the other, the Sapudl.
23 Q. Perhaps we could stop there. Would that be
24 a convenient moment?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will reconvene in
1 twenty minutes.
2 (4.00 pm)
3 (A short break).
4 (4.20 pm)
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, just before the
7 afternoon break, you were speaking of how this officer
8 came into the room, whose rank you could not recognise,
9 but started to speak to Dr. Ivankovic about getting
10 a move on with sorting out the people in the hospital.
11 And I think you said that he issued certain
12 instructions as to where people were to go. Did you
13 know the name of this officer or did you subsequently
14 come to know the name of this officer?
15 A. I think I am not going to exaggerate, but
16 a year and a half later I still did not know what his
17 name was because I spent about four and a half months
18 in prison and then, you know, I eventually came back
19 and I was a refugee. I was in some make-shift shelter,
20 I did not have a television. So it took me a year and a
21 half before I found out that it was Major Sljivancanin
22 because at that time in the hospital, he did not have
23 any rank. He only wore this Tito-type hat. He was tall,
24 he had a moustache, he wore a flak jacket, and I only
25 learned later from television what his name was.
1 Q. And did you, in fact, recognise him on
3 A. Yes. He was very characteristic type of
4 person. You could not make a mistake about him.
5 Q. And what did you find out his name to be?
6 A. Major Veselin Sljivancanin.
7 Q. Now what happened then, after he had given
8 this order that people were to be sorted in this way?
9 This was on 20th November 1991 in the morning.
10 A. Yes, yes. Around 8 o'clock. It may have been
11 later than 8 o'clock. Well, we lined up the way he
12 ordered. There was also a reservist there, about 45
13 years, old, rather stocky. I do not think that I could
14 recognise him any more and I do not know his name.
15 There were also some assistants there, somebody. They
16 took all metal objects from us. They did not touch our
17 wallets or jewelry or money, but only some things that
18 were not supposed to be there, like small knives or
20 Q. What about watches? Did they leave you with
21 your watch?
22 A. Yes. Yes. No, they did not touch any -- no
23 personal valuables were touched.
24 Q. Now, about how many people were lined up in
25 this way?
1 A. It is hard for me to give you a figure, but
2 later on those six buses were pretty full. You know,
3 they had been ready in the street, already sitting
5 Q. The people that were put into the buses by
6 the reservists and the JNA, were they men, women and
7 children or were they hospital staff or can you explain
8 who they were?
9 A. Those who were going into the buses or those
10 who had ordered people to go?
11 Q. The people that were put into the buses from
12 the hospital.
13 A. Right. Those -- of those some had their arms
14 bandaged, some were wearing slippers, and as the man
15 himself put it, the lightly wounded and civilians, and
16 some hospital staff. They had like badges, and they did
17 not -- they were not told to go into the buses, but
18 some remained, even though they had those badges. When
19 we climbed onto the buses we were taken in the
20 direction of the barracks.
21 Q. Now, what bus did you get on to? Can you
23 A. As far as I can recall, I was in the fourth
25 Q. Now, was there anyone on that bus that you
1 could remember that was not a JNA officer, or soldier,
2 but was there anyone on the bus such as yourself that
3 had come from the hospital that you can remember?
4 A. Yes. I remember some very clearly. For
5 instance, Emil Cakalic was there. He was a sanitary
6 inspector of the Vukovar municipality, even during the
7 war he was visiting civilians. Also, assistant, then my
8 neighbour, Drago Gavoric who would carry water to the
9 hospital and then a number of young men, older people.
10 There were a number of people that I knew.
11 Q. Now, apart from the people that were taken
12 out of the hospital, was there any JNA soldiers or
13 reservists on the bus there with you?
14 A. Yes. In my bus, there were two regular JNA
15 soldiers, and I think it was similar in the other buses
16 too, that were travelling together with us.
17 Q. Now, where did they take you on the bus when
18 you left the hospital?
19 A. I cannot tell you the exact minute, but about
20 9 o'clock, 9.30, we arrived to the barracks, over there
21 at the fairgrounds. That is where we ended up.
22 Q. Now when you say, "the barracks", do you mean
23 the JNA barracks?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And this was the JNA barracks in Vukovar?
1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. And the same place which was near your home
3 when you described earlier in your evidence.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you arrived at the JNA barracks what
6 happened then? Can you tell us what happened?
8 A. Different things happened, because I believe
9 we were there for over four hours, standing. Then these
10 good friends of ours and neighbours, the reservists
11 with automatic weapons were going around the buses,
12 threatening. For instance, a neighbour of mine who was
13 in the school of my -- with my daughter, was slapping
14 himself in the back, in his behind where he kept his
15 knife, and making signs like he was going to slit my
16 throat. Some were screaming with joy, as if you were
17 watching a movie and some Indians capture a white man
18 and then you do not know what they would do to him.
19 Then some were lucky. Some were fortunate.
20 Some people came to get some people out, and they even
21 got on to the bus. I remember a mathematics professor
22 named Licina. Then there was Hidek, who
23 had a watchmaker, and another called Kolesar, and then
24 I saw that from some other buses there were people
25 being taken out, and I thought, "lucky them, they are
2 However, up front there was a military bus
3 where people were -- they were placing people on that
4 bus and I saw that people were being beaten as this was
5 done, and then I immediately revised my opinion and
6 I thought well, they are not so lucky.
7 Then some people were being taken aside to
8 stay at the barracks, so a little while later, this
9 bus started in the direction of Negoslavci. I did not
10 know where they were taking them, but while they were
11 putting them on this bus some of these young men, these
12 reservists, had broken the anti- -- or the fire
13 extinguishers and they were breaking down some tools
14 like pickaxes and shovels and breaking off the handles
15 with screams and such.
16 Q. Okay. Well, just during the period of four
17 hours that you said that you were at the JNA barracks,
18 were you inside the bus? Did you stay inside the bus
19 all that time or did you get out at any stage yourself?
20 A. No. You could not leave at all. I spent the
21 entire time on the bus.
22 Q. Now, these were reservists who were making
23 these threats and were carrying on outside of the bus.
24 Did any of them enter the bus or attempt to enter the
1 A. They threatened and they actually tried to
2 get on to the bus, but as I recall, those three men
3 quietly got off the bus. There was no violence, because
4 there were these three soldiers at the door of the bus.
5 Q. And when you say, "soldiers", do you mean JNA
6 soldiers or reservists?
7 A. JNA soldiers.
8 Q. And did they protect the people on the bus
9 from these others that were outside?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. Now, you then moved on and said in your
12 evidence that the buses then moved off, headed towards
13 Negoslavci. What happened then? Where did you go?
14 A. First was the military one that set off and
15 then followed by this other bus, one by one by one, and
16 the other one, with screens and everything, so we set
17 off in the direction of Negoslavci but we did not know
18 where we were going.
19 Instead of going to Negoslavci they turned to
20 the left. I am a local from Vukovar and I spent 50
21 years there. I was never at this Ovcara in Jakobovac.
22 I was never in agriculture so I did not know where we
23 were going. I did not know this place. And then we
24 arrived at Ovcara. Some people on the bus said so, and
25 so that is what I learned, that this place was.
1 Q. Now, when you first arrived at Ovcara, was
2 your bus still the number 4 bus, fourth bus back in the
3 row or had it changed positions after leaving the JNA
5 A. As far as I can recall, the buses remained in
6 their positions. I do not recall them changing
8 Q. Now, when they pulled up at Ovcara where did
9 they pull up?
10 A. They pulled up next to a building, a hall of
11 sorts, and as these buses were unloading people, they
12 would move off all in the same direction.
13 Q. So the buses would line up one after the
14 other, were they?
15 A. Yes, yes, they were.
16 Q. Now, did the people on the buses on all of
17 the buses get out at once or did they get out at one
18 bus at a time?
19 A. One bus at a time. I remember that Goran
20 Mogosa, my neighbour three doors away from me, his
21 nickname was Kustra, he was the one that we had to
22 report to first so that he would take everything from
23 you. Bags, wallets, jewellery. He would strip you of
24 everything. I am not sure that he was able to search
25 everyone. When my turn came, he did not take much from
1 me. He took my watch and he took some German marks. But
2 around him there were a lot of bags, suitcases,
3 briefcases; personal documents, jackets, strewn
4 clothes. He was standing next to a ditch. So there
5 were -- it was about 3 square metres, this area, and
6 this was all filled with -- piled with things.
7 Q. Now, when people got off the buses, what
8 happened to them apart from having to surrender their
9 wallets and watches and things of that nature.
10 A. Then you had to go about 5, 6 or 3 metres,
11 depending on the person where people were coming from.
12 He did not have the time to strip people of all these
13 belongings and then you had to step into what I would
14 call hell.
15 They beat you from all sides, kicking, fists,
16 hands, boots. I remember they got to Damjan Samardzic
17 with these sticks and everything and they beat him up.
18 He never moved again after that. And there was another
19 one. I think it was his nephew, Gaso. In any event, two
20 bodies remained there lying for over two hours.
21 I personally, I received two blows. Once in the crotch
22 and once in the stomach then once a fist in my jaw and
23 then there was a man from Negoslavci. He said, "do you
24 know him?", and I turned around and one hit me so hard
25 with a stick, actually, you know, it is like a crutch
1 that one has or one uses when wounded, and he hit me so
2 hard that I immediately started bleeding.
3 Then I went, and then I -- fortunately I was
4 not felled by this blow, so I went into the hangar.
5 Q. Now, the people that were doing the beating
6 outside of the hangar, did you recognise any of those
8 A. In front of the hangar, as I said, there was
9 this Goran Mogosa, called Kustro, who was taking these
10 things and my neighbour, Stevan Zoric. He lived in
11 Dalmatinska Street. He is a neighbour of mine from the
12 house in -- near the barracks. I am not sure about his
13 sons because they were younger, but later I learned
14 that they were also at Ovcara, so I assumed that they
15 were there too but I cannot guarantee.
16 Then it was Milos Bulidza. He was a butcher
17 from the hospital. He was also one of the most
18 prominent there. And the others I do not know. I said
19 there were about 12 or 13 of them.
20 Q. And how were these people dressed? Did you
21 see? Were you able to see?
22 A. They were also wearing the olive
23 green uniforms, the JNA reservists, like the JNA
24 reservists were.
25 Q. Now, during this beating did you at any stage
1 lose consciousness ?
2 A. Fortunately for me, not. I did not.
3 Q. Were you hit in the eyes at all?
4 A. I was not hit in the eyes. The blow came
5 across the shoulder and over the head on my right-hand
6 side. Sort of behind my ear.
7 Q. Was your vision otherwise -- in any way
8 otherwise impaired as a result of being beaten?
9 A. No. No. In fact, you start -- you become more
10 alert in a way. You can see more than you normally see.
11 In other words, I was not bothered in any way, but
12 I was fortunate that they were too busy with Damjan
13 Samardzic so that I fared rather well.
14 Q. I think you said that you managed to make
15 your way into the hangar. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that is correct. I ran inside. I did not
17 walk inside, I ran inside. When I came inside,
18 I immediately saw many men, you know, I knew some of
19 them, some of them were my friends. Some I made
20 furniture for, they had arrived at Ovcara before us.
21 That was Ante Podruzjo, Zeljko Begov, Stanko Posavec,
22 the Kolak brothers. They were so beaten up, they were
23 so swollen that Zeljko Begov, who was next to me,
24 fainted several times, and we tried to revive him
25 several times. These were the men who had arrived
1 before us in that military bus.
2 Q. Did you recognise any of the JNA or reservist
3 persons inside the hangar when you went inside?
4 A. That at that moment everybody was still
5 wearing the JNA uniforms and I already said whom I saw
6 outside, but five or six minutes later some people were
7 still coming inside. The president of the municipality,
8 Slavko Dokmanovic, there was a young wounded man who
9 was crouching facing the entrance and Slavko Dokmanovic
10 hit him. He kicked him fully in the face and five or
11 six minutes after that, another young man ran inside.
12 He was about 18, 17, 19, I do not know how old.
13 A friend of mine was looking for a son of
14 his, Tomislav Panis. He looked like his father but I am
15 not sure that I could say that that was him. Whoever
16 knows about Sokar, he know what scissors are. He came
17 in and, following Slavko Dokmanovic.
18 Q. And did you, did Slavko Dokmanovic say
19 anything to anyone when he came into the hangar?
20 A. As far as I can recall and my memory still
21 serves me, after me, Emil Cakalic showed up and his
22 employee, he was the sanitary inspector --
23 Q. When you say, "his employee", whose employee
24 did you mean by that?
25 A. At first I did not say -- well, I said Slavko
1 Dokmanovic was president of the assembly, so how should
2 I put it, he was the major of the city. And Emil
3 Cakalic worked for the municipality together with
4 Slavko Dokmanovic.
5 Q. Yes. And tell us; what happened?
6 A. Since Cakalic too entered, then he sort of
7 ironically said, "Oh, Mr. Inspector, you are here too".
8 So that those who were inside, you know, the
9 reservists, that is -- surrounded him and fell upon him
10 and he again had gotten quite a bit -- he had received
11 some beatings outside but now he received more.
12 I forgot to say that first Cakalic got beaten
13 and then he took this -- then he hit this young one
14 with this scissor type of kick.
15 Q. Now, who hit the young one with the
16 scissor-type kick? Who did that?
17 A. President of the municipality, Slavko
19 Q. And who used the words, "Oh, Mr. Inspector,
20 you are here too"? Who said that?
21 A. Also Slavko Dokmanovic.
22 Q. Okay. Now, how far away from Mr. Cakalic were
23 you when Mr. Dokmanovic spoke to him? How far in
25 A. Approximately 4 metres.
1 Q. And were you able to hear the conversation
3 A. As far as I could tell, that is what he said.
4 He did not speak quietly. He also told him something
5 later, but there was confusion around so I could not
6 hear it all.
7 Q. In all, how long in periods of time was
8 Mr. Dokmanovic in the room, in the hangar there where
9 you could see him yourself?
10 A. I would just like to add that Sinisa
11 Glavasevic was there too. He was a reporter from
12 Vukovar for Zagreb. I could not see him. He was quite
13 far away, but they fell upon him so much that I could
14 not see him so I did not give any statement, but when
15 they found him at Ovcara, now I am rewinding the tape,
16 and I am saying that was him.
17 In terms of time, timewise, Slavko Dokmanovic
18 was there for about 20, 25 minutes.
19 Q. During the time that Slavko Dokmanovic was
20 there, did you have a good view of him? Were you able
21 to see him clearly?
22 A. Very clearly. Very clearly.
23 Q. What was the lighting like in the hangar at
24 that time when he came in, when Slavko Dokmanovic came
25 in? What was the lighting like in the hangar?
1 A. Very good. Very good.
2 Q. Were you able to see Slavko Dokmanovic in the
3 full facial view of him or did you only see him on the
4 side or did you see both?
5 A. At that moment I saw him very clearly facing
6 me because there were not that many people yet inside.
7 I am not one of the shortest people, I am not one of
8 the tallest people, but I saw him at a distance of
9 about 4 or 5 metres.
10 Q. Prior to that time, how long had you known
11 Slavko Dokmanovic?
12 A. I could not give you a precise answer. Now it
13 has been six or seven years, but I have known him for
14 over 20 years, because he used to play soccer. He
15 played soccer, and he also went to soccer games and
16 I knew him from sight. I know about 20,000 people in
17 Vukovar. I do not know everybody's last name. I also
18 saw him later at Pik because, you know, I also had
19 carpet stamping business as well and there is some
20 curtains I once put up there in Pik. So I knew him from
22 Q. What was Pik?
23 A. It is an agricultural, industrial
24 corporation. It is a very large company. I do not know
25 how much land they had, how much livestock, hogs, pigs
1 they had, so it was a food industry company, so it was
2 all part of this Pik.
3 Q. And where was this located, this Pik?
4 A. I will make it easier for you. If we are
5 here in The Hague, let us say seven kilometres to the
6 east, seven kilometres to the west, 10 kilometres to
7 the south, there were villages of Negoslavci, so the --
8 Ilok, Ilok was 35 kilometres away from Vukovar.
9 Trpinja, from where Slavko Dokmanovic is, Bobota, so
10 those are a large stretches of land. So from Vukovar
11 you could go 35 kilometres in each direction and that
12 would be all part of the Pik. Even some vineyards were
13 there, and they belonged to the Pik.
14 Q. Now, why was it that you saw Slavko
15 Dokmanovic at the Pik?
16 A. This was just by chance that I saw him. I was
17 hanging up curtains or maybe washing carpets. He came
18 by. As far as I know he worked there.
19 Q. And apart from seeing him previously at the
20 Pik, did you see him from time to time when he became
21 mayor of the municipality of Vukovar?
22 A. Not so frequently, but it would happen that
23 I would go to the town hall to settle an account or
24 something, so one would come across him. I cannot say
25 that I saw him once in three weeks. Sometimes I would
1 not see him for six or seven months.
2 Q. Now would you look around this courtroom and
3 see if you can see Slavko Dokmanovic in the courtroom,
4 and if you can, would you point to him, please?
5 A. Yes, I have seen him. He is in the last row
6 on the left.
7 Q. Now, going back to the time when you saw
8 Slavko Dokmanovic at the hangar in Ovcara, did you
9 notice at all how he was dressed?
10 A. He was the only one who was dressed in a blue
11 pilot uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.
12 Q. And did he have a coat or anything above the
13 uniform or was it just the plain uniform?
14 A. He had some kind of a jacket but it was not
15 buttoned up, like a wind jacket or something to protect
16 him from the rain.
17 Q. And what colour was that?
18 A. Are you referring to this jacket, or his suit
20 Q. No, the jacket.
21 A. It was more like navy blue or close to black.
22 But navy blue. A bit lighter. The suit was a bit
23 lighter but that was also dark blue.
25 Q. And the clothes that he had on, did you see
1 whether or not there was any insignia or military
2 markings on these clothing?
3 A. I did not see that.
4 Q. Did you see whether or not Slavko Dokmanovic
5 was armed?
6 A. As far as I saw him, no. He was not armed. He
7 did not have any weapons.
8 Q. And now I think you have already touched in
9 your evidence upon some of the things that you saw
10 Slavko Dokmanovic do, but what was he doing for that
11 period of 20 minutes that he was in the hangar? Can you
12 tell us? You have already told us some of the things
13 that he was doing.
14 A. He was walking up and down rather nervously
15 for as long as there was some room inside, and in those
16 twenty minutes he hit those two men. He gave Cakalic
17 a rather hard slap, and I cannot say for sure what he
18 said about Sinisa Glavasevic, who was to the right when
19 you go into the hangar. I was quite far away so I could
20 not really see but I saw somebody being beaten. I did
21 not know who it was, I just saw that there was a crowd
23 Q. Now, what happened next? What happened --
24 what was the next thing to happen after you observed
25 what Slavko Dokmanovic was doing?
1 A. There was a reservist of some 40, quite
2 strong -- and he had a whistle like the judges have at
3 football matches. Some people were getting beaten
4 inside, and after about 10 minutes the door was opened
5 a little. They were not closed. This reservist came in
6 and whistled, and said, "that is enough. Let us go".
7 I can tell you that I personally was glad. However, one
8 set went out and another set came in. I was not beaten
9 again, but others did get some beatings. There were two
10 women in that hall too. I know one of them. Dragica
11 Tuskan. I do not know the other one.
12 Q. Now, did you subsequently become separated
13 from the rest of the group in the hangar?
14 A. Yes. After a while, roughly, shall we say
15 about an hour and a half later of what I would describe
16 as hell, I do not think hell is like that, though
17 I have never been to hell.
18 I do not really know whom I should thank for
19 staying alive, because Ivankovic was there, then my
20 neighbour Stevan Zoric. I got on well with Puric, even.
21 We played soccer together. In any event, I was taken
22 out with, I would say, about ten others. (redacted)
2 (redacted) I do not know his surmame.
3 Then somebody called Joakim Dudas, around --
4 I cannot recall any more names. I think there were
5 about 10 of us.
6 Q. Now, when you were separated, where did you
8 A. When they took us out, after about 20 minutes
9 we were outside. Suddenly it became dark, and then we
10 entered a kind of combi Polo. I remember well that the
11 lights had to be turned down because as we started
12 there was another vehicle coming towards us with its
13 lights on.
14 They took us as far as Velepromet and there
15 was no room there. So, then they took us to a knitwear
16 plant known as Modateks. It is on the road between
17 Petrovci and Vukovar. We got there, shall we say, about
18 6.30, 7 o'clock. I do not know exactly, because I no
19 longer had my watch on me and believe me, I had
20 forgotten that I had a pocket watch as well.
21 The only thing that the Mogosa did not take
22 from me. You know how it is, it was the winter time,
23 I was wearing a jacket so I had several pockets and he
24 simply did not find that watch. And so, about
25 7 o'clock, 7.30, we reached Modateks.
1 At the door was George Japavlovic. Until
2 yesterday, a bricklayer who had been -- who had worked
3 on my house or rather my son-in-law's house, and
4 talking to him was a woman. As far as I know she is
5 Croatian, Nevenka, just now I cannot recall the
6 surname, but I will remember later on in my testimony.
8 And there was a light from the left, a rather
9 dim light, and below that light I would say there were
10 about 120 or 140 women to the left, so we entered this
11 big factory hall straight ahead, and no more than five
12 minutes later a man, somebody called Dusko,
13 a good-looking young man, a Serb, who used to work in
14 the iron works and as it was quite dark, he asked
17 you. We will talk in the morning". And that was all
18 that happened that evening on 20th November 1991.
19 Q. And then what happened after that?
20 A. In the morning, so by now it is 21st
21 November, about 5 am, I am not quite sure, three buses,
22 I think, and the women were taken away. Again, I do not
23 know where to, and we stayed behind alone. In the
24 morning, some regular JNA soldiers appeared. There were
25 some reservists as well, and the most important among
1 them was somebody known as Deda. I know him well but
2 I do not know his name. I cannot say anything bad about
3 him. You will hear later on about him in my testimony.
4 But about 8.30 it was raining outside, and I know
5 I must have done -- I do not know, I must have done
6 something wrong, since they told me to go and collect
7 the rainwater because it was raining, in a can. I did
8 not even have time to feel afraid, and this young
9 soldier took out a pistol and fired behind my back.
10 I did not bat an eyelid, so I started washing
11 this large hall and about 10 o'clock, 10.30, a young
12 girl, not more than fifteen, sixteen, shall we say,
13 appeared dressed in an olive green uniform with a coat,
14 a JNA overcoat, with two soldiers and she pointed her
15 finger at me and then the two of them took me against
16 the wall. They spread my arms. She had a knife of some
17 20 centimetres long, and she put it against my neck.
18 I did not know who she was.
19 The first question was, "who did you vote
20 for?"; do not expect me to be brave. I said,
21 "Ivica Racen". He was the Communist, because
22 Yugoslavia was a Communist country. "Who else did you
23 vote for?", she said. I said, "for Milicovic", I think
24 he is from Bobota. He was director of the Post Office.
25 He was the municipal delegate. And another one of ours
1 who was also a local from Vukovar, and then she said,
2 "how many Serbs have you killed?", "how many old women
3 have you killed?", "where is your uniform?". And,
4 "where is your automatic rifle?". Believe me, I was
5 not that scared as I was at Ovcara. So I said, "what do
6 you mean?". Then she shouted at me. She took
7 a cigarette from this soldier. She approached four
8 centimetres to my eye, and she wanted to put out the
9 cigarette in my eye. I do not know whether she would
10 have succeeded but the young soldier would not let her
11 do it.
12 After that, the situation calmed down
13 a little. But I wish to emphasise on 21st of
14 November while those women were still there, some
15 women, because I do not think all of the women were
16 there. This particular soldier, using an anti-aircraft
17 gun, fired so much in the yard so that the other one
18 told us, "do not be afraid, it is my friend's patron
19 saint's day". I never knew what day that was.
20 So, the situation calmed down a little.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I interrupt
22 the evidence for one moment and ask that there be
23 a redaction of page 149, lines 12 and 13? Thank you.
24 Mr. Berghofer, were you subsequently taken,
25 imprisoned in Sremska Mitrovica?
1 A. Mr, Doctor, this is still 21st. We have not
2 reached Velepromet yet.
3 Q. I see. Well, perhaps you could, in a summary
4 form, tell us how it is that you ultimately ended up in
5 Sremska Mitrovica.
6 A. I shall speed it up. Around 2 o'clock
7 (redacted)-- he cursed my
8 mother and said, "who brought you here?". Perkovic
9 said, "Ivankovic", and I do not know who else he
10 mentioned. He cursed his mother again, and ours and
11 said he was going to kill him first and then us. I am
12 not sure, and I did not hear well. I have already fixed
13 the number of them, but I am not sure about that. In
14 any event, this Deda gave us some bread and then Jesda,
15 Mistankovic appeared and he too is a neighbour who
16 never hurt me and accompanied by Deda, Jesda
17 Mistankovic and another one, they took us to
19 In Velepromet they separated Perkovic,
20 Tihomir. One of them kicked him in the face, took him
21 out, cursed his mother, threatening to cut his ear.
23 (redacted)and about 2300 hours,
24 two young soldiers came and said, "do not be afraid,
25 the captain wants to save you, so get on the bus", and
1 we went off to the barracks somewhere just before
2 midnight on 21st.
3 Q. And where did you go then?
4 A. You mean from the barracks? So it is already
5 22nd now. Yes. They registered our names. They put us
6 on the buses, and we were driven off direct to Sremska
8 Q. And how long were you imprisoned there?
9 A. Four and a half months.
10 Q. And were you then subsequently exchanged?
11 A. I was. I was exchanged on 27th March 1992.
12 Near Osijek at Nemetin.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I have no further
14 questions, your Honour, but before cross-examination,
15 might I ask for another redaction at page 154, line 11?
16 That has been notified to the Registry.
17 If your Honours please.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: May I turn to Mr. Fila and ask
19 whether he would like to start because it is rather
20 late. It is twenty past five. We should, in principle,
21 stop at 5.30.
22 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I cannot finish by
23 5.30 under no circumstances.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: But do you prefer to start
25 tomorrow morning at 9.15? Probably it is better.
1 MR. FILA: It would be better, but if you
2 wish, I can take advantage of the remaining ten
3 minutes, but it would be better to start tomorrow.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: No, I think it is better to
5 adjourn until tomorrow at 9.15 sharp. So we stand in
7 (5.20 pm)
8 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)