1. 1 DAY 8 Friday, 6th February 1998

    2 (9.15 am)

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I would like

    5 the Registrar to call out the case number, please.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And the

    9 appearances?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name

    11 is Niemann and I appear with my colleague Mr. Williamson

    12 and Mr. Vos for the Prosecution.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 MR. FILA: Your Honours, my name is Toma Fila

    15 and I appear with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic as the

    16 Defence for Mr. Dokmanovic.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear

    18 me? Thank you.

    19 All right. I understand you have called

    20 a witness.

    21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour, just

    22 a brief preliminary matter before that.

    23 We have completed the preliminary list of

    24 witnesses that we intend to call for next week, and we

    25 have also included the statement of a witness Dzuka

  2. 1 Radici which was the only statement, I believe, which

    2 your Honours had not received previously in relation to

    3 witnesses to be called next week. I have already

    4 provided copies of both of these documents to the

    5 Defence, and in the course of the morning I will be

    6 providing a Croatian translation of this statement to

    7 the Defence as well. But at this time I can give these

    8 to the usher and they can be presented to your Honours.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 Are you going to call only seven witnesses?

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, it appears at

    12 this time that that is all that we are going to have

    13 available. We are still in the process of working on

    14 this issue, but there may be one additional witness

    15 other than that, but right now I believe that is all

    16 that we have, and we would then be prepared when we

    17 return in March to present all of the evidence in

    18 regard to the exhumation and a couple of other

    19 witnesses. And that should be the end of our case.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: So you think we can finish in

    21 March?

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: With the Prosecution case,

    23 yes, sir.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. Now, as you know, in

    25 March, we only have, I think, five days.

  3. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir. There will be

    2 relatively few witnesses in March, although the

    3 witnesses that will be testifying, I think, some of

    4 their testimony will be fairly lengthy because it deals

    5 with some technical issues and again the results of the

    6 exhumation, but it is our belief that we should be able

    7 to finish our case in March.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And when do you

    9 think you may be able to interview the 45 defence

    10 witnesses in Belgrade? Remember, we agreed that you

    11 would try to interview them.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir. It would be our

    13 intention to do that in the break between the

    14 February and March sessions, so we should be in

    15 a position in March to notify the court and the Defence

    16 of which witnesses upon which we have reached

    17 agreement.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. So in theory, in

    19 April, we could start with the Defence witnesses. Yes?

    20 Good. Thank you.

    21 MR. FILA: Your Honour, if I may be of

    22 assistance, the Defence will not have a single question

    23 for any of the witnesses we are hearing today, but

    24 I would like you to convey on behalf of the Defence our

    25 condolences for their losses in this unfortunate war.

  4. 1 Regarding the Ovcara questions, the Defence

    2 is not denying at all the findings there and that those

    3 people were killed at Ovcara. I said yesterday too, and

    4 last time, that I am not disputing that there was an

    5 armed conflict. What I am disputing is an international

    6 armed conflict. I am not disputing that there were 200

    7 bodies found. I am just trying to establish which

    8 bodies they were. Therefore, things will proceed very

    9 expeditiously as far as I am concerned.

    10 And a last point, I should like to make;

    11 I have agreed with the Prosecution, in yesterday's

    12 statement of Mr. Cakalic it is stated that he was shown

    13 a photograph of the accused, Dokmanovic, wearing

    14 a camouflage uniform. Through the kindness of the

    15 Prosecution I will be shown the photographs. I wish to

    16 draw the attention of the court to the fact that those

    17 photographs need to be seen for us to establish whether

    18 that was an uniform or the kind of clothing that

    19 I showed you here at a closed session, if you recall,

    20 that we had once.

    21 That is all I had to say and I will be of no

    22 further bother to the court until the end of today's

    23 hearing.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: You do not bother the court,

    25 you help the court, of course.

  5. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I could point

    2 out one other small factor in relation to the witness

    3 list that I have provided, the last witness that is

    4 indicated on that list, Mr. Peter Kiper is a Czech

    5 diplomat who was an ECMM monitor at the time of the

    6 conflict in Yugoslavia. He will be testifying on

    7 Wednesday, 11th, and he has requested to be able to

    8 testify in the Czech language so we have made

    9 arrangements for interpreters who are having to be

    10 brought from another country so we had to specify an

    11 exact date on which he would testify and we have stated

    12 that for the 11th, so if we finish with the other

    13 witnesses prior to that, it still would be necessary to

    14 reconvene on the 11th to hear his testimony.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: If your Honours please, I can

    17 proceed with the witness at this time.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes please.

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Could you state your name for

    20 the record, please?

    21 I am sorry, I do not believe the witness has

    22 made the solemn declaration.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. May I ask the witness to

    24 make the solemn declaration?


  6. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    2 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

    3 Q. Sir, could you state your name for the

    4 record, please?

    5 A. My name is Veber, Leopold Vladimir.

    6 Q. And, sir, where are you from originally?

    7 A. I was born in Vukovar.

    8 Q. How long has your family been in Vukovar?

    9 A. My family has been in Vukovar to the best of

    10 my knowledge since the days of my father. My father was

    11 born in 1915, and according to the book of births, my

    12 grandfather, Anton, was also born in Vukovar, so that

    13 is all I know. I do not know exactly what year my

    14 grandfather was born in but both my grandfather and my

    15 father were born in Vukovar.

    16 Q. And until 1991 was your whole life spent in

    17 Vukovar?

    18 A. Yes. I spent my entire life in Vukovar.

    19 I completed my apprenticeship there in 1958. I am

    20 a hairdresser, so that is also where I finished

    21 elementary school and this secondary school for

    22 hairdressing and then I worked in Bor for some time,

    23 for some years, that is a hairdressing salon, and in

    24 1964 I went to Vukovar and I opened a hairdressing

    25 salon for women, one of my own, and I worked there

  7. 1 until 1985, until 31st December 1985. Then I re-trained

    2 to do something else. I closed down the shop for

    3 justified reasons, and I passed the necessary exams in

    4 order to be in charge of central heating because in the

    5 town of Vukovar a home for the elderly was opened. At

    6 that time it was called, "the home of veterans and

    7 retirees". They needed a person who would be in charge

    8 of central heating.

    9 I got this job, so in 1986, on 1st October,

    10 I got this job and until the outbreak of the war

    11 I worked in that home for retired persons.

    12 Q. How many children did you have?

    13 A. I had two children. I had a daughter who was

    14 born in 1967 and a son who was killed during the war.

    15 He was born in 1969. I only had the two of them.

    16 Q. And what was your son's name?

    17 A. My son's name was Veber, Sinisa. He was born

    18 on 22nd February 1969.

    19 Q. Did your son Sinisa attend school in Vukovar?

    20 A. Yes. My son completed elementary school in

    21 Vukovar, and then he enrolled in secondary school, and

    22 he completed it, thus becoming I would call a "tjrol"

    23 technician at Pik, Vukovar. He finished his

    24 apprenticeship but he did not get a job because he went

    25 to the army and then he came back from the army, he did

  8. 1 not have a job, so he went to Verona, to Italy to work

    2 for a spell with someone from Borovo, a painter, an

    3 artist. He was selling paintings there, so he worked

    4 there for about two months, and then he came back for

    5 some kind of vacation, just before the war broke out,

    6 and he sent another colleague to go there and he said

    7 that he would be coming back to continue, but then he

    8 did not. He stayed on in Vukovar.

    9 Q. As your son was growing up and as a young

    10 man, was he involved in any kind of sports activities?

    11 A. Sinisa was involved in sports. He rowed, and

    12 I cannot tell you exactly what year he started to row.

    13 I do not know exactly. When he was very young, and he

    14 rowed in the Vukovar club. Their young team achieved

    15 some very good results. He rowed in eight- and

    16 four-member teams. These young people were so good, and

    17 they were even better than their older fellow

    18 sportsmen, and at a championship that was held in

    19 Vukovar the president of the club said that that had

    20 never happened before, that such a young team of rowers

    21 would win the title even before the championship

    22 actually began. They were better than the older team.

    23 So, the ex-champions from Zadar were

    24 defeated, so the Vukovar club became the champions.

    25 I know that this man said -- the diploma went into the

  9. 1 hands of the sweet ones from the salty ones, you see.

    2 They lived on the banks of the River Danube and Zadar

    3 is on the banks of the Adriatic coast by the sea.

    4 So, before the war, before the army, he

    5 actually went to the army in 1978. He went to the army

    6 in 1978, and before that --

    7 Q. I am sorry, if I can interrupt you for

    8 a moment, are you saying he went to the army in 1978?

    9 Is that correct?

    10 A. Oh, 1988. 1988. Oh, you see... 1989, yes,

    11 yes. I got carried away. In 1989, in February 1989 he

    12 came back from the army, that is to say that he went to

    13 the army in 1988. That is to say that he had won all

    14 those medals before the war, before he went to the

    15 army. So six years before that they were the champions

    16 of then Yugoslavia, of the entire country.

    17 They were the only team consisting of eight

    18 young men to have won the title in that way. All eight

    19 of them belonged to the same club and they were

    20 champions, and also for three times they won the

    21 European championship, that is to say that twice they

    22 defended their European championship title.

    23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Veber, if I can stop you

    24 at that point, I would like at this point to show you

    25 a photograph and if you can tell me who is portrayed in

  10. 1 this photograph, please, and we will mark this as

    2 Prosecutor's exhibit...

    3 THE REGISTRAR: 59.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: 59. Can you tell the court

    5 who is depicted in that photograph?

    6 A. That is my son.

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this point I would like to

    8 tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 59.

    9 A. I cannot understand you.

    10 Q. That is all right. It was not a question for

    11 you.

    12 In 1991 did your son suggest to you that

    13 maybe you should leave Vukovar?

    14 A. Yes. My son suggested that his mother and

    15 I and sister leave Vukovar, because I worked in this

    16 home for the elderly. From May 1st I was mobilised

    17 with the civilian defence, and I was supposed to stay

    18 at that home only during the night, because most of the

    19 other staff members were women and they were afraid to

    20 be on their own so I could not leave the place because

    21 of that. They told me that I could even spend the night

    22 there, that I would be paid a special bonus because

    23 a nurse would be there on night duty and she would --

    24 she was afraid of being on her own and she did not feel

    25 safe, so...

  11. 1 Q. Did Sinisa also stay in Vukovar?

    2 A. Yes. Yes. Sinisa also stayed in Vukovar.

    3 Q. Did he join in the defence of the city?

    4 A. He joined the defence of the city. Also

    5 through these local communes, as the place was

    6 organised then, and they were all supposed to go on

    7 duty, as it was called then, so he stayed on in our

    8 local community which was called Vladimir Nazor.

    9 Q. And do you have any idea what his

    10 responsibilities were with the defence of the city?

    11 A. His duties? I do not know exactly what he

    12 was. I do not know but it was like I know that he had

    13 night duty, and that he would come back. Since I was at

    14 this other place we would see each other from time to

    15 time. I do not know. Until August.

    16 Q. What was the condition of the home for the

    17 elderly where you were working during the course of the

    18 battle?

    19 A. The conditions there were very difficult

    20 because there were quite a few people there who were

    21 immobile, who were handicapped, and there were about

    22 120 people staying there. The situation was such that

    23 there was hardly any electric supply because of the

    24 shelling of Vukovar and there was no water. The home

    25 was shot at quite a lot and we were among the first to

  12. 1 have casualties among these old people who were

    2 incapable of going downstairs. There was not a proper

    3 shelter there, though.

    4 I do not know what kind of arms these were,

    5 were they launchers or mortars or cannons, but it was

    6 a new building and everything was bursting all over the

    7 place. There was no heating, and when this first attack

    8 occurred, we had two or three dead and seven or eight

    9 wounded people, and Radio Vukovar had broadcast that,

    10 that the home for the elderly was shelled, and that

    11 there were casualties there.

    12 Q. Mr. Veber, was the home for the elderly used

    13 for any kind of military purposes?

    14 A. No. The home for the elderly was such that

    15 there were only civilian people there when we did not

    16 have any water, then they would come and bring us water

    17 because these people did not have any drinking water,

    18 and I had a boiler room downstairs for heating where

    19 there were about 3,000 litres for heating, so I opened

    20 that, so that we could use this water for washing our

    21 faces and we used it for the toilet, so that is it.

    22 So, the army would only come after the

    23 shelling. They would come very quickly to give aid to

    24 the wounded and take them to the hospital.

    25 Q. Mr. Veber, where was your house located in

  13. 1 Vukovar? Which section of the city?

    2 A. My house was near the water tower, near, in

    3 Slavija, a mill. It was the first electric mill after

    4 the Second World War. I do not know. It is about

    5 500 metres away from the water tower. That is to say,

    6 close to Mitnica.

    7 Q. Now, at some point in time as the battle was

    8 coming to a close did you leave your home and go

    9 somewhere else?

    10 A. We did not leave our home because I was up

    11 there all the time, and my mother and my aunt and some

    12 other neighbours who were elderly, since we had a good

    13 basement, stayed at home quite a lot. I do not know,

    14 until...

    15 Q. I am sorry, I was talking about near the end

    16 of the battle. At some point in time did you, in fact,

    17 leave and move to someplace else?

    18 A. Yes. We left the house. I was up there at

    19 Mitnica and my family was taken to the shelter. My

    20 mother and my sister had to -- to the centre of town

    21 near the bus station, there is a shelter there, and

    22 that is where they were until the very fall of Vukovar

    23 and I was at Mitnica, together with a few of these

    24 women because before this shelling we managed to

    25 evacuate half of these people who were badly wounded

  14. 1 and who were mobile anyway and we were supposed to

    2 evacuate the remaining 60 persons too but it was not

    3 safe any longer so I had to stay until the very end,

    4 together with these old people up there in this home

    5 for retirees.

    6 Q. And at the end where did you go?

    7 A. In the end my Sinisa was at the hospital

    8 because he was wounded, and before that he was not even

    9 wounded and he was in the centre of town and he went up

    10 there to see me and we went to Olajnica and we spent

    11 a few days there. We were there a few days before

    12 Vukovar fell. He was wounded then. He was in hospital

    13 because he had a concussion, and he was not wounded by

    14 the actual bullet, but from the pebbles and rocks that

    15 hit him as a result of this shell that had fallen. He

    16 could not hear very well and in the hospital when he

    17 heard about this evacuation he came to pick me up. It

    18 was a Sunday. It was the 17th -- between the 17th and

    19 the 18th, so it was already around 12.30, the beginning

    20 of the 18th, Monday. I know that it was raining, and we

    21 went to the hospital. That is where we were.

    22 Q. And how were you accommodated at the

    23 hospital? Where did you stay there?

    24 A. When we came there we entered the hallway. It

    25 is a big hallway and there were a lot of civilians

  15. 1 there. We were in a hallway first and then we went to

    2 this other place where these other people were, and we

    3 found ourselves a small space there and that is where

    4 we sat until the morning. The next day we walked around

    5 a bit.

    6 This was the 19th by then, yes, yes, it was

    7 the 19th because Monday was the 18th. So I was there.

    8 I did not leave that place. This is the very entrance

    9 to the hospital. I mean, not into the compound, the

    10 yard, but into the building itself. Upstairs the

    11 shelling had damaged the building quite a bit but

    12 downstairs it was all right.

    13 Q. And was Sinisa staying with you in the same

    14 place in the hospital?

    15 A. Sinisa was there with the other wounded. He

    16 came to see us a couple of times to see how we were. It

    17 was a short period of time. It was Monday, and then

    18 Tuesday I was with him at 12.30. I saw him. We kissed

    19 each other, and they had already started leaving that

    20 day. It was Tuesday, and he said, "see you in Zagreb",

    21 and I said, "are you coming with us?", and he said,

    22 "no, I have my own company here and I was staying with

    23 them here so I will stay on with them", so my wife was

    24 there too, and she said, "I was with Sinisa now", and

    25 I said, "I saw him at 12.30", so I was with him at

  16. 1 12.30. My wife saw him about an hour and a half later,

    2 and after that the room was emptied. These buses came

    3 that took them to Velepromet.

    4 I was among the last, perhaps, to leave. My

    5 wife and I, that is, and they returned us a few times.

    6 The army was all around, tanks were there, they were

    7 saying, "you are going", "you are not going". All the

    8 buses had left, and I cannot tell exactly how many of

    9 us stayed on, not too many, about 20, all of us

    10 civilians.

    11 Then they say, "you are leaving". So then we

    12 got out and some kind of a military truck came, not the

    13 big one, a wide one. I do not know what it is called.

    14 I cannot remember the vehicle, but I just know it was

    15 a military vehicle, grey, olive green, and a soldier

    16 gave us some hot tea, a piece of bread, and a can, and

    17 we took it with us. We entered the vehicle, and we went

    18 up there towards the military barracks. We reached the

    19 barracks before dark. I was not looking at my watch.

    20 I did not know what time it was, so we were in front of

    21 Velepromet for some time, and it was getting dark and

    22 then they turned the war lights on, you know, the

    23 lights on the car that are not really glaring lights,

    24 but the ones they put down, so we got out, and they put

    25 us someplace on the right-hand side. We were waiting

  17. 1 there, I do not know how long, but quite long, and we

    2 waited.

    3 Q. And this was on the 19th that you were taken

    4 from the hospital to Velepromet. Is that correct?

    5 A. Yes. On the 19th.

    6 Q. And your son Sinisa remained at the hospital

    7 at that time. Is that correct?

    8 A. Sinisa stayed at the hospital, yes.

    9 Q. And so this was the last time that you had

    10 seen him, was this occasion at 12.30. Is that correct?

    11 A. That was the last time I saw him, yes, the

    12 last time I saw him.

    13 Q. And what did he have with him at that time?

    14 A. Sinisa had a small bag and in it he had his

    15 passport, he had those medals that he had won, his

    16 rowing medals, exactly 38 medals. Obviously he was so

    17 pleased that he took them along with him. He also had

    18 some underwear, and I do not know what else. Some very

    19 small things. It was a very light bag.

    20 Q. Now, how long were you held at Velepromet?

    21 A. In Velepromet that evening when we arrived we

    22 stayed there for quite a long time. It was night-time,

    23 and it gets dark early and I was not really looking at

    24 my watch, and I just know when we came we were told to

    25 stand there, not to go anywhere. This was in the yard,

  18. 1 two APCs got in. They had their lights on. They turned

    2 around, towards the exit of Velepromet. They turned on

    3 these lights and they were actually lighting the exit.

    4 I do not know those people. I do not know who those

    5 people were, if you were to ask me now I have no idea.

    6 I stayed there because a captain told me that I should

    7 not move and I was standing there, and a bus was

    8 supposed to come and -- in front of these APCs, and it

    9 stood there.

    10 Boys were passing by, men, two by two in

    11 pairs, their hands were tied to one another, and they

    12 were boarding the bus and when the bus was full then it

    13 left Velepromet and went out to the main road. Then

    14 another bus came and I cannot say exactly when, but

    15 I think there were eight buses for sure, perhaps even

    16 more than that.

    17 Q. Mr. Veber, if I can stop you right there, what

    18 was going on at Velepromet on the day of the 20th, if

    19 you recall?

    20 A. On the 20th I remember exactly. It was

    21 a Wednesday. My wife and I and the rest of us who had

    22 spent the night in the carpenter's shop there, someone

    23 said to us, I do not know what rank he had, he was

    24 a reservist, to go out. And we stood there, and my

    25 wife, because my mother, sister and daughter were also

  19. 1 in Velepromet and they were in a bus that was about to

    2 leave, and then my wife went over to give them some

    3 addresses. At that moment, when she left, I stayed

    4 behind alone. Somebody I had never seen before came up

    5 to me wearing an olive green uniform, asking, "who is

    6 Vader Veber", and I said, "I am", and he said, "come

    7 here". So I asked someone next to me to look over this

    8 little bag. We also had a few of our personal things,

    9 underwear and that sort of thing in it. Then he said,

    10 "Well, come here", and he started pushing me. Then

    11 I was going back again to this carpenter shop.

    12 It was not a big hall, it was a place where

    13 the woodworking was done. Then there were three

    14 persons, also people I did not know. One of them was

    15 very tall and strong, and he said, "give me that MUP

    16 number". I was never in MUP. When I got in I had to

    17 spread out my arms and my legs. I had a winter

    18 wind breaker on me. He took it off. He threw it away, to

    19 the side. He searched me in case I had any weapons. He

    20 did not find anything. He opened the door, and he

    21 shoved me inside. There was a room to the left, and

    22 another one to the right. I entered the one in the

    23 middle. That morning I was in the right one, and then

    24 he moved me to the left one, so I fell over some other

    25 people. I saw the faces, they were all scared.

  20. 1 I recognised quite a number of people. We kept quiet.

    2 We stayed there from Tuesday, that was -- you said the

    3 20th -- no, no, that was Wednesday, was it not? The

    4 20th was a Wednesday. And I stayed there until the

    5 21st, the Thursday, in the evening, about 9.30.

    6 Q. And, Mr. Veber, on the 21st, did you have

    7 a chance to meet up with some other people who

    8 indicated to you that they had come from Ovcara?

    9 A. Not there but in Mitrovica, when we were in

    10 Mitrovica, two persons, and another one later on, that

    11 we happened to get together. Actually they were in

    12 Velepromet as well, and they told me that my son had

    13 ended up in Ovcara. Actually, that they had seen my son

    14 in Ovcara, so I asked how did they know, and then they

    15 said that somebody had taken them out of there, they

    16 had known my son and they had seen him there.

    17 Q. Now, you said that you were in Mitrovica.

    18 When did you go to Mitrovica? What was the date, if you

    19 recall?

    20 A. That evening, Thursday evening, I knew the

    21 ranks well. I do not know the new ones. He was captain,

    22 first class. He came in. There were just a few of us

    23 left inside in this kind of -- probably a small

    24 warehouse, storage room, and he came in, and he said,

    25 "come on quickly if, we manage to save you". There was

  21. 1 a bus outside, and he could not get it started, so he

    2 asked us to push it. I was just wearing my jogging suit

    3 and he said, "Well, have you not got anything else?",

    4 and I said, "no"; "Well, how could you have come just

    5 wearing that", and then I told him that someone had

    6 taken it off me and thrown it away. Then he found

    7 a pullover for me. He gave it to me, I put it on, on top

    8 of my jogging suit, because it was rather cold. I was

    9 shivering. There was no heating, so we went out into

    10 the yard. There was a drizzle. This was Thursday

    11 evening, 21st, or was it the 22nd? No, the 21st, no,

    12 the 21st in the evening, a Thursday.

    13 So we pushed this bus, it got started. We

    14 jumped onto it quickly, the driver and this captain,

    15 and they transported us from Velepromet. They did not

    16 even switch on the lights. This was during the night,

    17 and they took us to the Vukovar barracks where we got

    18 out, and again, after those two days, they gave us --

    19 we were thirsty, they gave us water and we were hungry.

    20 We were given another can of food and half a loaf of

    21 bread they gave us. So we ate that, we drank some

    22 water. We were given a packet of cigarettes each for

    23 two days we did not have any, and then they listed us,

    24 and on Friday, so that means the 22nd in the morning,

    25 they transferred us to Mitrovica which means that on

  22. 1 Friday 22nd I was in Mitrovica. Not just me, but

    2 a busload of us. More than 30. We could not count, but

    3 there were more than 30 people inside. I know there are

    4 that many seats.

    5 Q. And where were you taken in Mitrovica?

    6 A. I was not familiar with Mitrovica. They said

    7 we were at the -- at the prison and we were in the bus

    8 outside. We were not allowed to go out and we waited.

    9 We did not know what we were waiting for, but they said

    10 they had to wait for the interrogation that we would be

    11 interviewed, and then released home.

    12 I cannot remember what time it was. I know

    13 that some people were passing by. They were spitting at

    14 the windows, saying, "those are Ustashas inside". Then

    15 one of the officers inside told us not to react, just

    16 to bend our heads and not to get upset about it. Then

    17 we went inside the bus. All of us got off. There was

    18 a large yard with high walls. We were lined up there

    19 against the wall with our hands up, facing the wall,

    20 and we heard someone behind us, "target -- aim", and

    21 then I wondered why had they brought us all this way

    22 and wasted so much fuel?

    23 There were two buses and there were two APCs

    24 escorting us, probably to protect us, one in front of

    25 the bus and one behind us, when we were being taken

  23. 1 from Vukovar to Mitrovica, and there we were standing

    2 facing the wall, hearing this order, "aim", and we were

    3 waiting for them to fire. However, no one did. One of

    4 ours turned around, and somebody hit him on the head

    5 saying, "what are you turning around for?", but he

    6 wanted to see whether they were going to fire or not.

    7 So we stood there. Nobody fired, then we

    8 turned around, and I saw that there were quite a number

    9 of them. I do not know how many, but they no longer had

    10 olive green uniforms, but the blue police uniforms, the

    11 uniform of the policemen in the former Yugoslavia was.

    12 We used to call them, "the blue ones".

    13 Then we were passing from that yard into

    14 another. They were standing on both sides. We passed

    15 between them, they hit us with the batons, some people

    16 on the head, some people on the stomach. We had to run

    17 through. It depended how quickly one passed to avoid

    18 the blows. And then we entered a hall, a sports hall

    19 like a gym. We had a take all our clothes off,

    20 absolutely, we had to strip, they examined us to make

    21 sure, whether we had any weapons or I do not know what

    22 else, then we put back on our clothes again, then we

    23 went out.

    24 We all had to lie down, and we lay there.

    25 I do not know for how long.

  24. 1 Q. Mr. Veber, if I could stop you now, where is

    2 Sremska Mitrovica located?

    3 A. Sremska Mitrovica is when you are going from

    4 Vukovar, you would go to Sid, as far as I remember you

    5 follow the highway and then you turn to the right.

    6 Q. It is in the Republic of Serbia, is it not?

    7 A. Yes, yes, it is. It is situated in the

    8 Republic of Serbia, yes, because Sid, too was all part

    9 of Serbia. In fact, I think they had the same licence

    10 plates.

    11 Q. Now, you indicated that you met up with some

    12 of the people that had been at Ovcara. This was in

    13 Sremska Mitrovica; correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Approximately how many people from Vukovar,

    16 to your knowledge, were held at this prison in Sremska

    17 Mitrovica?

    18 A. There were many people. For a long time we

    19 did not know how many there were until a list was made

    20 at the International Red Cross that was visiting, gave

    21 us some of these lists and according to those lists, we

    22 learned that more than 1,000, I think it was 1,200

    23 people were there in Mitrovica.

    24 Q. And were these people civilians, soldiers or

    25 a mixture?

  25. 1 A. You see, they were all in civilian clothes,

    2 the people I saw, with the exception of a couple of

    3 them who had stayed behind wearing a police uniform.

    4 A couple of them that I knew I saw in the cell that

    5 I was in.

    6 Q. And was Mr. Cakalic also held in this prison

    7 with you?

    8 A. Yes. I cannot say for sure. I arrived on the

    9 22nd. That morning when I arrived they brought I do not

    10 know how many more people, and among them was Cakalic.

    11 I remember that. Drago Berghofer on that same day, that

    12 must have been, I suppose, 21st, the Wednesday.

    13 And I remember also Ljubo Vagar.

    14 Q. That is all right, Mr. Veber.

    15 Was there one occasion when Mr. Cakalic

    16 assisted you and you felt like, in effect, he had saved

    17 your life when you were at this prison?

    18 A. Yes. As he was taken out of Vukovar at the

    19 same time as me, he also was taken to the barracks. We

    20 were transported together to Sremska Mitrovica. He was

    21 also badly beaten, like me, only they had a little more

    22 clothing, so the blows did not hurt them so badly,

    23 because after all those beatings, I did not tell you

    24 everything that the blue ones did to us. It was dark

    25 already, and we were so exhausted that we could no

  26. 1 longer stand, and they told us to go to what we learned

    2 was the third pavilion in Mitrovica, so I went.

    3 I was the first or the second, I cannot

    4 remember, among the first, and Cakalic was behind me.

    5 We reached the second floor. I remember that. I entered

    6 this corridor, and then I felt something bursting in my

    7 head, so then after that I do not know what happened,

    8 but I know that when I came to I was lying on my back

    9 looking up and I saw faces looking at me, saying, "he

    10 has come to. He is better". So they gave me water, they

    11 lifted me up. I recognised one of them. I thought his

    12 name was Bozo but it is not, it is Ante. He used to

    13 work in Pik.

    14 I saw him, so I even thought that he belonged

    15 to their army. I did not know where I was because I was

    16 surrounded and they were looking at me, and I said,

    17 "Bozo, what have I done to anyone to be beaten like

    18 this?", and he said, "now calm down. It will be all

    19 right", and then when I calmed down a bit I said,

    20 "where am I?", and he said, "Well, you know where you

    21 are, here we are", but I was rather lost and then

    22 I realised that those were my people from Vukovar

    23 because some people were already there before we

    24 arrived.

    25 Half the bus came to this particular room.

  27. 1 Others were distributed to other rooms, and then I saw

    2 that Emil was there, Ljubo Vagar in that cell -- one

    3 could call it a cell, probably, what else -- then they

    4 lifted me up. I could not stand because I had been

    5 kicked in the backbone and in the neck. My nose was

    6 broken, some people did not even recognise me, people

    7 who knew me well, so they took me to wash up a bit.

    8 Then Drago Berghofer came up to me and they did

    9 everything to revive me, and they told me that they had

    10 seen my son at Ovcara.

    11 Q. Did you have any other discussions with them,

    12 with Mr. Berghofer, Mr. Cakalic about what had gone on at

    13 Ovcara?

    14 A. We talked a little. They did not know much,

    15 or they did not want to tell me. I do not know. Judging

    16 by what Emil said, and Drago Berghofer who had been

    17 there, I saw that something was wrong. However, someone

    18 else, I do not know how he got there, he told me too

    19 that he had been at Ovcara. He comes from Sotin. That

    20 somebody he knew and who was wearing the other side's

    21 uniform, they were distributing people into groups, and

    22 he said that he was put in a group to wait. However,

    23 I thought that that was not a good place to be, so

    24 I moved to this other group, and then again he saw me

    25 in this other group and he ordered me to go back, and

  28. 1 this happened three times.

    2 He tried a fourth time to move to this other

    3 group and he stayed alive. He does not know what

    4 happened to those others in the other group. So how he

    5 got out with some civilians, or whether somebody had

    6 saved him, I do not know.

    7 Q. Now, at some point in time you were

    8 eventually released from the prison in Sremska

    9 Mitrovica, were you not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. When did that occur?

    12 A. It occurred on the 27th March 1992.

    13 27th March 1992.

    14 Q. During the time that you were held in

    15 Mitrovica were you ever charged with any crimes or told

    16 that you were being held because of the commission of

    17 crimes?

    18 A. I was asked how many people I had killed, but

    19 I was not charged with any offence. No. I was not

    20 charged at all.

    21 Q. And when you eventually left in March, where

    22 did you go at that time? Back to Croatia?

    23 A. Yes. I went to Croatia. We went to Zagreb in

    24 the Vinko Bek hall. We saw the situation was very bad

    25 there. They took us around the hospitals to examine us.

  29. 1 They established the injuries we had, so I was sent to

    2 a couple of places because I had several blows on my

    3 head. My spine had been injured, my shoulder too had

    4 suffered a lot of blows. I could not move my arm, so

    5 that I was taken around by our people from one doctor

    6 to another. I was still really lost, so I could not get

    7 around on my own.

    8 Q. Now, in February of 1997 did you get some new

    9 information about Sinisa?

    10 A. Yes. Ever since I left people were asking me

    11 where Sinisa was, what happened to him. Some people

    12 even said they had seen him in Sremska Mitrovica in

    13 a bus, but they said they did not know which direction

    14 he went, whether the bus went towards Aleksinac, or Nis

    15 or Belgrade or Novi Sad, but apparently he was seen.

    16 One person told me that, that this person had enquired

    17 about my son. He came to visit me.

    18 (10.15 am)

    19 That was the first news I got, so I felt

    20 consoled, "thank God, that he managed to survive

    21 Ovcara", because he asked me what was the last I had

    22 heard of my son and I said that he had been seen at

    23 Ovcara and I did not know what had happened to him. So

    24 when I got back from Mitrovica this person visited me

    25 at Vinko Bek. Whether he wanted to console me or

  30. 1 something...

    2 Thank you, I was told that he was seen in

    3 Mitrovica so until last year I had hope that maybe he

    4 was captured somewhere, that he is working somewhere,

    5 because I heard from some other people that some people

    6 had been taken to Aleksinac, several buses of them,

    7 that only a couple of buses had gone to Nis, that they

    8 had selected the stronger ones and as he was strong, he

    9 was 1 metre 92 centimetres tall. You see? You can see

    10 how well-built he was, so I thought perhaps he was

    11 taken to the mine to work as a miner so I would prefer

    12 if he had been captured and he was working there, then

    13 if they kill him like that for nothing.

    14 So, until last year I had a shred of hope

    15 that he was alive.

    16 I gave his particulars to the International

    17 Red Cross, the national Red Cross, the descriptions,

    18 everything I knew concerning him. I went to enquire and

    19 they said, "as soon as we learn anything we will let

    20 you know",.

    21 I was notified last year in February,

    22 I cannot remember exactly the date, I think it was

    23 mid-February, when they exhumed the 200 bodies at

    24 Ovcara, as I had given a description, and on the basis

    25 of that description they saw it was Sinisa. First they

  31. 1 notified me when I should report to the hospital.

    2 I cannot remember the name of the hospital. Salata, at

    3 Salata, at such and such an hour -- as my daughter was

    4 in Austria I informed her immediately so that my

    5 daughter and son-in-law came and my wife was with them

    6 because I had a little granddaughter, she was looking

    7 after her, and they came for the identification.

    8 When we got to Salata they took us to the

    9 room upstairs where the doctors, specialists for these

    10 things were. We were introduced and then according to

    11 our statements they asked us whether we accept or we do

    12 not accept.

    13 Then they showed us photographs for, after

    14 all, five years had gone by. So, you could only really

    15 see the bones, and then they brought a piece of

    16 pullover. It was greenish in colour. My wife noticed,

    17 although it was faded in colour by then, she recognised

    18 the pullover. That was one thing, and then the daughter

    19 knew which teeth had fillings, which were missing, and

    20 which had fillings, and the most important of all for

    21 identification, I think that they said that he must

    22 have been a very top quality athlete because of the

    23 muscles which were so well-developed, and this was seen

    24 from the bones, that only a really top-level sportsman

    25 could have such a body.

  32. 1 What else? Oh yes. They asked us whether he

    2 had been wounded. No, he had a surface injury here.

    3 They were not real wounds that required any sewing up.

    4 And on his legs he had suffered a blow. Then my

    5 daughter remembered, "daddy, you know which leg that

    6 was". He had a motorbike as a young boy and he fell,

    7 and that was what they were able to notice on the

    8 bones.

    9 So there you are. We accepted that, and on

    10 the 7th March last year, he was buried at Mirogoj in

    11 Zagreb.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no further

    13 questions.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions?

    15 Mr. Veber, you heard before the kind words of

    16 the Defence counsel, Mr. Fila, who wished to express his

    17 human feelings of sorrow and regret for what happened

    18 to your son, and convey to you his condolences.

    19 Mr. Veber, the court is fully aware of the

    20 appalling ordeal you went through. On behalf of my

    21 colleagues and on my own behalf, I wish to express to

    22 you our full understanding for your plight, and our

    23 deep appreciation for your decision to come here to The

    24 Hague to testify before the International Criminal

    25 Tribunal. Thank you. Thank you so much.

  33. 1 Are there any objections to the witness being

    2 released?

    3 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: You may now be released.

    5 Thank you.

    6 A. Thank you. Thank you.

    7 (The witness withdrew)

    8 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, your Honours. The

    9 next witness will be Ljubica Dosen and she has not

    10 requested any kind of protection.

    11 (The witness entered court)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you

    13 please make the formal declaration?

    14 LJUBICA DOSEN (sworn)

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    16 Examined by MR. WAESPI

    17 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, from this witness

    18 we have an English version of the statement, and

    19 I believe that you have not yet received it -- oh, you

    20 have it. Oh, that is just perfect. Thank you very much.

    21 Good morning, Ms. Dosen.

    22 A. Good morning.

    23 Q. Do you feel comfortable?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were you interviewed by an investigator from

  34. 1 this Tribunal on 22nd August 1995, and did you sign

    2 a document which was the English translation of that

    3 interview?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. I will now show to you a document, and would

    6 like to ask you whether that was this very document

    7 which you have signed.

    8 A. Yes. That is the document.

    9 Q. Thank you very much. Do you see your

    10 signature on that document?

    11 A. Yes, I do.

    12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Your Honours, I would

    13 like to tender that as the next Prosecution exhibit.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 60.

    15 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. It should be -- we

    16 have no Croatian version so far, and it should be under

    17 seal.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. No objection?

    19 MR. FILA: No, but there is

    20 a misunderstanding. We got a translation into the

    21 Croatian language from the Prosecution, so there is

    22 a translation. Here it is.

    23 MR. WAESPI: Perfect. Thank you very much.

    24 I will enquire and we will then tender it as Exhibit A.

    25 Thank you.

  35. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you Mr. Fila.

    2 MR. WAESPI: Were you again, Ms. Dosen,

    3 interviewed by an investigator from this Tribunal on

    4 17th March 1996, and did you again sign a document

    5 which was the English translation of the second

    6 interview?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. I would also like to show you this document.

    9 I would like to ask you whether you again see your

    10 signature on the bottom of that document, on the pages.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. I would

    13 again like to tender that as the next Prosecution

    14 exhibit.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 61 under

    16 seal.

    17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, and I will look

    18 for the Croatian version as well.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Waespi, we have not

    20 received this second document, the second interview

    21 taken on the 17th March 1996.

    22 MR. WAESPI: Okay. Thank you, your Honours.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: At least I cannot find it.

    24 I have only one.

    25 MR. WAESPI: It might be attached to it. The

  36. 1 first one has eight pages and then there is an

    2 additional three pages, but I would have three copies

    3 for you, your Honours, if you...

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    5 MR. FILA: The Defence has not received it

    6 either.

    7 MR. WAESPI: I apologise, your Honours, for

    8 this inconvenience, and to the Defence as well, my

    9 apologies.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we give the Defence

    11 a few minutes so that they can go through the -- all

    12 right. Thank you. All right. So you may proceed.

    13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, your Honours.

    14 Will you please state to the court your full

    15 name?

    16 A. Ljubica Dosen.

    17 Q. And what is the place and date of your birth?

    18 A. Luzani, Slavonski Brod, on 9th March 1949.

    19 Q. What is your profession?

    20 A. I am a skilled worker and I make rubber

    21 footwear.

    22 Q. Is it Vukovar your home town? Have you always

    23 been living in Vukovar?

    24 A. I came to Vukovar as a two-month baby.

    25 Q. And you have most of your life been living in

  37. 1 Vukovar; is that correct?

    2 A. All my life from then onwards. I lived in

    3 Vukovar.

    4 Q. Where did you live in summer 1991?

    5 A. In Vukovar, in the street of Mose Pijade.

    6 Q. Who did you live with?

    7 A. With my husband, Martin Dosen and my

    8 daughter, Tanja Dosen.

    9 Q. What was the profession of your husband?

    10 A. My husband is a fisherman, a private

    11 fisherman.

    12 Q. Was he involved in politics? Was he a party

    13 member?

    14 A. My husband was never involved in politics,

    15 but he was a member of the HD.

    16 Q. Was your husband also involved in the defence

    17 of the town?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Can you tell us the reason why he was

    20 involved?

    21 A. He was involved in the defence of the town

    22 because the shelling had already started then and he

    23 simply wanted to protect his family.

    24 Q. Was your house also destroyed by shelling?

    25 A. Yes.

  38. 1 Q. Do you remember the date?

    2 A. This was at the beginning, but it was not

    3 fully destroyed. It had only been shelled, because we

    4 were right next door to the theatre that was shelled

    5 very quickly and destroyed.

    6 Q. Was your husband wounded in the course of the

    7 summer 1991?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Can you describe the events which led up to

    10 those wounds?

    11 A. My husband went to our then Territorial

    12 Defence to see what would happen and how they should be

    13 organised, and since those who were attacking us were

    14 on the other side of the Danube, and they knew where

    15 this was, and they shelled the Territorial Defence, and

    16 as he came in front of the Territorial Defence

    17 building, a shell fell and a fragment wounded his leg.

    18 Q. Was he treated in hospital because of these

    19 wounds?

    20 A. Yes, he was. He stayed in the hospital and

    21 then he was sent home for treatment because he did not

    22 have to stay as an in-patient because it was only the

    23 leg tissue that was wounded.

    24 Q. Was he then again seriously wounded in

    25 November 1991 when he fell from the third floor

  39. 1 balcony?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was he then again hospitalised?

    4 A. He was then. He stayed on in the hospital. He

    5 did not come back home.

    6 Q. When was that? -- excuse me, I withdraw that.

    7 Did you and your daughter get the permission

    8 to join your husband to go to the hospital?

    9 A. Yes. Because my husband was immobile and he

    10 expressed his wish to have us with him so that I could

    11 help him because the staff was too busy with the other

    12 wounded people.

    13 Q. When did you join your husband? When did you

    14 move yourself into the hospital?

    15 A. My husband went to the hospital on November

    16 16th, and we came between 17th and 18th to the

    17 hospital. I mean my daughter and I.

    18 Q. Do you recall how many nights you did spend

    19 in the hospital alongside your husband?

    20 A. Well, two nights, and another day before the

    21 evacuation took place.

    22 Q. So, you might have left the hospital either

    23 on the 19th or the 20th November. Is that correct?

    24 A. During the night of the 19th they came to the

    25 hospital, and we were evacuated on the morning of the

  40. 1 20th.

    2 Q. Can you describe to us very briefly in

    3 general the overall situation in the hospital during

    4 these three, four days you stayed in the hospital?

    5 A. It was terrible for me. First of all, there

    6 were very many wounded people, there was no water,

    7 there was no food, there was not any medicine. The

    8 shelling was very frequent. Civilians were coming in

    9 because they had nowhere else to go, because of all the

    10 shelling. You could feel blood everywhere. Doctor

    11 Bosanac feared an epidemic. There were people who were

    12 dying, they could not be buried because no one could go

    13 out because of the shelling. All of these people,

    14 really tormented. They did not have any cigarettes.

    15 They were hungry. They got some kind of food aid

    16 packages. They were hungry. They were exhausted. They

    17 were in pain. It was awful.

    18 Q. Were these civilians evacuated to Velepromet

    19 at one point in time?

    20 A. Yes, because very many civilians came from

    21 basements, from shelters, from houses where they were,

    22 because they knew that the convoy was coming and

    23 everybody wanted to get out of that hell. So Dr. Bosanac

    24 asked if they could be away from the wounded, if they

    25 could stay at Velepromet because the convoy would come

  41. 1 there too, so it was mostly women and children who went

    2 to Velepromet.

    3 Q. Do you recall when these civilians were

    4 evacuated, or rather transported to Velepromet?

    5 A. This entire procedure started in the morning

    6 and went on until late in the afternoon, and evening

    7 between 18th and 19th. A day before the convoy came,

    8 they had already reached Velepromet.

    9 Q. Now, where did you spend the last night in

    10 the hospital, the night before your evacuation?

    11 A. I spent the last night by my husband's side,

    12 because he asked for me to be with him during

    13 evacuation because immobile, so that I could give him

    14 water, whatever else he needed. So I slept by his feet

    15 on his bed.

    16 Q. What was the condition your husband was in

    17 during that night?

    18 A. It was awful. He was terribly afraid. He was

    19 a sportsman and his work also kept him very active, and

    20 he simply could not reconcile himself to immobility and

    21 depending on someone else and he cried a lot. So he

    22 always asked for me to be by him to give him something,

    23 to bring him a bit of water, juice or something, but to

    24 be next to him and to talk to him because he was

    25 terribly frightened as to how he would live after that,

  42. 1 in that state, immobile, so I was with him during those

    2 last days, all the time.

    3 Q. Was there a medical record with him at that

    4 time?

    5 A. The morning before we were to be evacuated,

    6 Nurse Biba gave every wounded person his medical

    7 record, if they were to be transported further,

    8 although we had all assumed that we were going to

    9 Zagreb, especially the wounded who needed further

    10 treatment and further care because our hospital was not

    11 in a position to do so, so every patient, every wounded

    12 person had his medical record with him so that his

    13 treatment would be continued at another hospital. I do

    14 not know where.

    15 My husband was wounded so badly that he could

    16 not hold these papers, this medical record, so it so

    17 happened that I took this bag with his medical record

    18 and I still have it with me.

    19 Q. Do you have this record now, here in court?

    20 A. Yes. I have it with me.

    21 Q. Thank you. Did you later in 1992 ask two

    22 doctors who have treated or had treated your husband in

    23 Vukovar to confirm that medical record in two separate

    24 letters?

    25 A. Yes, I did. One of the doctors is Dr. Nejarvo

  43. 1 and the other is Dr. Aleksijevic, who in the hospital

    2 treated my husband.

    3 MR. WAESPI: I would now like, your Honours,

    4 to show the witness a copy of the record she showed to

    5 us in the days before today, and I would like to ask

    6 her to tell us whether the copy we have is, in fact,

    7 the copy of the original of hers.

    8 The Defence is already in possession of this

    9 record of both the Croatian original and the English

    10 translation, and I have here again copies here of the

    11 translation and the original for the judges.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Waespi, are you tendering

    13 these documents in evidence?

    14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There is no

    16 objection.

    17 MR. WAESPI: Now, Ms. Dosen, is that copy the

    18 copy of the original you have with you today in court?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us briefly,

    21 lead us through these pages of the document just

    22 referring quickly, what do you see, what do you see

    23 written on that document.

    24 A. This is the medical record of my husband's

    25 illness. It is a document that says his name and

  44. 1 surname, Dosen, Martin, born in 1952, residence,

    2 Vukovar, Mose Pijade, sex, male. On 16th November 1991

    3 he was admitted to the Vukovar medical centre.

    4 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. If you now

    5 turn to the second page, and could tell us, not to read

    6 everything, but just to tell us in your language what

    7 we have.

    8 A. On the second page there is an anamnaesis and

    9 the medical findings of his wounds and the illness of

    10 my husband. It is written in Latin. That is why I asked

    11 Dr. Aleksijevic to translate this for me to know what it

    12 says.

    13 Q. Thank you very much. The third page --

    14 A. The third page is a list of my husband's

    15 temperature because it was taken every day. That is to

    16 say that it is a very important document for me because

    17 it says that on the 16th November, the 17th November,

    18 and the 18th November, his temperature was taken. On

    19 the 19th and 20th it was not. That is when they were

    20 being prepared for evacuation. That document is

    21 important for me, because it shows that my husband was

    22 at the Vukovar hospital and he has never been seen

    23 since.

    24 Q. Thank you very much. If you could please keep

    25 the next pages in your original, because they are

  45. 1 empty, they are only forms, and come to the two letters

    2 we were referring to earlier. The first letter is

    3 a letter by whom, Ms. Dosen?

    4 A. The first letter is a certificate by Dr. Juraj

    5 Njavro, a surgeon at the Vukovar hospital who treated

    6 my husband's leg when he was first wounded and he

    7 wrote:

    8 "Dosen, Martin, hurt in August, wounded by

    9 a grenade. His right leg was wounded. He was treated as

    10 an out-patient. He regularly came for check-ups. The

    11 certificate is being given at the request of his wife."

    12 Q. Thank you very much. I think we can skip the

    13 last letter because it confirms just what you have told

    14 us; if you agree, Ms. Dosen?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Thank you very much. I am tendering that --

    17 A. You are welcome.

    18 Q. -- as the next Prosecution exhibit.

    19 MR. WAESPI: THE REGISTRAR: That will be

    20 Exhibit 62 and the English translation, 62A.

    21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much.

    22 Now, Ms. Dosen, were you told in the morning

    23 of the 20th November that you would be evacuated?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Who told you so?

  46. 1 A. Well, that day in the morning a soldier in

    2 uniform came. He looked special. We did not know who he

    3 was then. At least on that occasion he was decent. He

    4 said, "I am Major Sljivancanin. From now on I am in

    5 command here. We are now going to read out a list of

    6 names to you and please, as we call out your name, get

    7 out of the hospital".

    8 Q. Can you, briefly, describe to us the

    9 appearance of the person you described as,

    10 "Sljivancanin"?

    11 A. I personally think I shall never forget him,

    12 particularly because his looks were special. You rarely

    13 see such people in our parts, because he is very tall

    14 with a big black moustache. You would remember him

    15 anyway, if you saw him, and he has a Montenegrin

    16 accent.

    17 Q. What happened next? Were you taken out of the

    18 hospital?

    19 A. Next to him were two other soldiers whom I do

    20 not know, and in their hands they had a list, and they

    21 were reading it out. It so happened that my husband,

    22 Martin Dosen, was the first on the list and Tadija

    23 Dosen, Ivan Dosen, Ivan Vulic and all of them, and

    24 they were told to go out as their names were called

    25 out. My husband was immobile so I stayed on waiting for

  47. 1 him to be transferred from his bed onto a stretcher.

    2 So the wounded who could move were walking by

    3 me as they were getting out. I still was not aware of

    4 what was going on outside. Then two nurses came and

    5 they were supposed to carry my husband. However, he was

    6 a man who weighed 120 kilos and it was not all that

    7 easy to carry him, so it was hard for them so Major

    8 Sljivancanin ordered two soldiers to carry him out on

    9 a stretcher. When they took him, my daughter and

    10 I followed the stretcher and it is only then that

    11 I went out in front of the hospital. To my left there

    12 were other civilians, women, children, who were already

    13 standing out there. I am sorry, on the right-hand side,

    14 civilians were on the right-hand side, and at the

    15 left-hand side we had to pass by two lines of soldiers

    16 that were standing on the left- and the right-hand side

    17 but then I realised that we were not moving towards the

    18 main entrance, but that we were going behind the

    19 hospital.

    20 Q. I am sorry, Ms. Dosen, I have a little

    21 problem with my earphones. I cannot really hear any

    22 translation. (Pause). Let me just change the

    23 earphones, maybe that helps. Do you hear me?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Thank you very much. Now it works again.

  48. 1 You are now out of the hospital in the yard

    2 of the hospital, and were you then taken further after

    3 we have seen these lines of soldiers?

    4 A. Yes. Yes. We had to walk between the two

    5 lines and we came to a road behind the Vukovar hospital

    6 where four buses were parked, two civilian buses and

    7 one military bus and behind it yet another civilian

    8 bus. And I saw that my husband was being carried

    9 precisely to this military bus which was very unusual

    10 to me because if this was a convoy, and if we were all

    11 supposed to be evacuated, then how come they were

    12 taking him to the military bus? And there were armed

    13 soldiers standing next to this bus, four of them

    14 outside the bus and two inside.

    15 This seemed a bit unusual to me, and not

    16 a single wife or child were there. It was only myself

    17 and my daughter Tanja who were there. They brought my

    18 husband to the bus and they put him next to it because

    19 he could not board the bus, because he was incapable of

    20 sitting, and they could not carry the stretcher onto

    21 the bus. I stood in front of the bus, I looked inside,

    22 and then I saw that on that bus it was not two people

    23 who were sitting next to each other, two by two, but

    24 one by one. Then Ivan, my husband's younger brother and

    25 Tadija, my husband's older brother, the young Kozul,

  49. 1 Sinisa Glavasevic, I know them all because we grew up

    2 together, so I told my husband, "I do not understand

    3 this. What is this?", and he said, "I do not understand

    4 it too. Something strange is going on here".

    5 Q. You said that you were now standing in front

    6 of the military bus. Which bus in the line of these

    7 buses you saw and you described was this bus? In what

    8 position?

    9 A. There were two buses, one next to another,

    10 civilian, normal buses that used to drive us to work or

    11 wherever people had to go, but I immediately noticed

    12 and I shall never forget, the military bus because

    13 I was wondering why a military bus. I turned to

    14 a soldier, and I said, "young man, please. Where are

    15 these buses going to?", because I saw that it was not

    16 a convoy. The European Community was there. No one was

    17 there. Only a bit further on Major Sljivancanin was

    18 standing by the first bus and issuing orders who was

    19 supposed to go where and who was supposed to sit where,

    20 and I saw that something was wrong. And he said, "I am

    21 sorry, but I really do not know. Ask someone else".

    22 At that moment a soldier in uniform from the

    23 bus, a reservist, got my younger brother-in-law out, my

    24 husband's younger brother, and they pushed him so hard

    25 towards the fence of the hospital and said that he

  50. 1 should get everything out of his pockets, whatever he

    2 had, and he said, "you Ustasha, now we are going to

    3 show you", and Martin was lying out there but was

    4 looking at this other man with an automatic rifle, was

    5 standing there pointing it at him. My daughter started

    6 crying, my husband started crying, I did not know what

    7 to do, and he said, "do something! Take my child away

    8 from here!", and I said, "how do you think I am going

    9 to do that? I have a Kalashnikov pointed at my back? How

    10 do you think I am going to take her?", and he said,

    11 "I do not know what you are going to do, but do

    12 something. Take my chain off my neck and take my ring

    13 and take off my watch and I promised my ring to my

    14 son". I mean, it was awful. I can never forget that and

    15 my child can never forget it.

    16 I thought that it was all over, that they

    17 would kill this youngest brother in front of us all

    18 there on. On the other side they were bringing his

    19 niece, Ruzica Markobasic, who was pregnant, five months

    20 pregnant. They were also pulling her by her fur coat

    21 and her handbag and they were throwing her things

    22 around, and they were saying, "you whore, you Ustasha

    23 whore, where are your pictures, where are your pictures

    24 of your husband cutting off children's finger and

    25 making necklaces out of them?". These are such banal

  51. 1 things. We did not kill anyone, let alone children.

    2 On the contrary, we fed them and we gave them

    3 food and my husband helped them. I had a restaurant of

    4 my own. I gave them milk and food and oil and sugar and

    5 if they were fair and honest. They should have said

    6 that, that not a single Croat mistreated children there

    7 or beat children there, least of all we, the women,

    8 Croat women. On the contrary. In my building where

    9 I lived, those who lived next door got wheat flour and

    10 bread and yeast and everything from me, and my daughter

    11 also baked sweets and she gave them to their children.

    12 It is not that we would shut ourselves into the room

    13 and not give them anything, and this was a very ugly

    14 thing because we did not do that to them.

    15 Q. Can you tell us, Ms. Dosen, what happened to

    16 the woman you just described, Ruzica Markobasic? Was

    17 she led into the bus eventually?

    18 A. Yes. She was also brought there by a young

    19 man. He is not from Vukovar, but I would recognise him.

    20 And as they were getting onto the bus, he took my hand

    21 and he squeezed my hand. I was wondering what it was.

    22 Perhaps it was a message or something. He took her on

    23 to the bus and automatically, I opened my hand and

    24 there were 2,000 Yugoslav dinars in my hand and I said,

    25 "sorry, young man, but what do I need this far?", and

  52. 1 he said, "madam, you might need this, but she certainly

    2 will not any more".

    3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Ms. Dosen. Maybe your

    4 Honours, that is a convenient time for the break.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So we stand in recess

    6 for twenty minutes.

    7 (11.05 am)

    8 (A short break)

    9 (11.30 am)

    10 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour, I would like to show

    11 the witness Prosecution exhibit number 43. That is

    12 a still picture from the video about the patients in

    13 the hospital we have seen the other day:

    14 Can you please put it onto the ELMO?

    15 Thank you. It is only one picture so I think

    16 we can have the lights like this.

    17 Ms. Dosen, do you know a person on this

    18 picture?

    19 A. Yes. I know him. This is my husband's nephew,

    20 his sister's son Martin Jakubovski Dosen.

    21 Q. Can you please describe him, what is he

    22 wearing, what does he look like on this picture?

    23 A. He is wearing hospital pyjamas, but as he was

    24 wounded, he had a high fever, and he was always cold,

    25 so I gave him this pullover that he is wearing. He was

  53. 1 wounded in the arm. He had a serious wound. His hand

    2 was to be amputated but Dr. Aleksijevic did all he could

    3 to save his hand, so that he used screws and surgery to

    4 sew it on, and he had an injury of the pelvic bone.

    5 Q. Thank you. Just for clarification, what is

    6 the colour of the pullover you were just mentioning?

    7 A. The pullover is pinkish. You can see that it

    8 is a lady's pullover. It was mine, and I gave it to

    9 him.

    10 Q. So, it is the person on the right side you

    11 were referring to.

    12 A. Yes. This young man with a sling and his hand

    13 in a sling.

    14 Q. Perhaps you could point to him on the ELMO.

    15 A. This is him. (Indicated).

    16 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

    17 Ms. Dosen, did you see this person,

    18 Mr. Jakubovski that morning, 20th November?

    19 A. Yes. Exactly on this bench that he is sitting

    20 on, we sat there together, gave him a cigarette,

    21 because he also smoked, and when they started calling

    22 out the names as he was a mobile patient he went out

    23 before us. However, when I reached the bus, he was

    24 still not there. He was held up somewhere.

    25 In the meantime, while I was standing by the

  54. 1 bus, another soldier brought him. He stood in front of

    2 the bus. He turned around towards me and Tanja, and he

    3 said, "bye aunty, and you cousin, take care", and then

    4 he boarded the bus.

    5 Q. Have you ever seen this person again?

    6 A. No. He was exhumed from Ovcara and buried in

    7 Vinkovci. He was 21.

    8 Q. Do you know a person called Darko Vuk?

    9 A. Yes. I know him personally, because he was

    10 a little older than Martin, but he was very bad. I do

    11 not know what we did to him, for him to suddenly become

    12 such a big Serb. I thought he was a friend, and I asked

    13 him, "Darko, could you save any one of mine, my

    14 family?", and he looked at me ironically and said, "you

    15 Dosens have done a lot of harm so you just keep quiet".

    16 Q. Can you describe his appearance that day?

    17 What was he wearing?

    18 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He was

    19 rather arrogant, he behaved like a great liberator.

    20 I do not know who he was liberating me from. I thought

    21 that if he was a man from Vukovar, a native of Vukovar,

    22 I cannot accept that he was in jeopardy because he was

    23 not, at least there was no threat from any one of us,

    24 and he did not need to liberate me, but I thought that

    25 the situation was such that it was not good for us

  55. 1 Croats, that the people around us were very arrogant,

    2 they were celebrating.

    3 There were some who carried Chetnik insignia.

    4 They wore long beards. One of them was so brazen as to

    5 lick a knife, threatening to slaughter Croats, that is

    6 terrible, that is something I never thought would

    7 happen. At least I did not expect it from people I grew

    8 up with, I went to school with, with whom I went out,

    9 that I went to weddings to, and that they should behave

    10 in that way now was terrible. I do not know. I will

    11 probably never forget that the same Darko would sit in

    12 my restaurant on the Danube with my husband. He was

    13 a friend of his, and that it should end up like this,

    14 I do not know. I thought he would be a man and that he

    15 would assist us, but he behaved as a great liberator

    16 and he celebrated.

    17 Q. If we may turn back to your husband, Martin,

    18 you said that he was laying on his stretcher in front

    19 of the bus. Did you have now a conversation with

    20 Sljivancanin with regard to your husband?

    21 A. Yes. Since my husband was fearful for our

    22 daughter who was 14, the two of us were alone there and

    23 he could not help us in any way, then he told me that

    24 I should try and do something. So I realised that our

    25 locals, the people of Vukovar could not help us so

  56. 1 I told my husband, "I am going to go to the major and

    2 ask him what I and my daughter were doing there".

    3 So I went up to him next to the other bus and

    4 I said, "excuse me, may I ask you something?", and he

    5 said, "yes, please". I said, "I do not understand what

    6 I and my daughter are doing here. There is not a single

    7 other woman or child", and he asked me, "are you

    8 arrested?". I said, "no. I think it is a convoy that

    9 is going to take me out of Vukovar somewhere", and he

    10 said, "what are you doing here then?". I said, "I am

    11 here because of my husband", and he said, "where is

    12 your husband?", and I said, "there he is, next to the

    13 bus", and he said, "who is he?", and I said, "he is

    14 Martin Dosen"; "oh, Dosen. Why is he not in the bus?".

    15 I said, "he cannot, because he is immobile. He is on

    16 a stretcher and he cannot get into the bus with the

    17 stretcher".

    18 He looked at me, turned around and told two

    19 soldiers to go back for Martin and to take him back

    20 towards the hospital, and that we should follow. While

    21 walking I asked him, "excuse me, but what shall I do

    22 with my husband's things?", because I thought that

    23 since he was in the hospital, he had a long, "dzeta",

    24 so he could not wear anything except a pullover and

    25 I thought he would be cold and if we get to Zagreb or

  57. 1 somewhere else, can I give him his clothes, a change of

    2 clothes, and he had a bag with his things inside.

    3 He looked at me and he said, "what does he

    4 need that for?", so I was surprised. Because I wondered

    5 what he was asking me and I said, "I beg your

    6 pardon?". Probably he realised that he had indicated

    7 that my husband would no longer need those things, and

    8 then -- so he corrected himself and said, "who is going

    9 to carry those things?". Then I said, "if there is no

    10 one to carry them I will carry it", and then I pushed

    11 my daughter in front of me and told her to go forward

    12 because I just wanted to join the other women and

    13 children, because my husband kept telling me that we

    14 should always be where there are lots of other people,

    15 where everyone is together, because he was afraid they

    16 might kill us if we were alone, and he was especially

    17 fearful for Tanja.

    18 So, I headed towards the other women and

    19 children to the left. However, they did not take Martin

    20 back into the hospital, they left him there at the

    21 entrance to the hospital because for the immobile

    22 patients who were on stretchers who did not have a limb

    23 or who were wounded so badly that they could not walk,

    24 military trucks came to pick them up, and as far as

    25 I was able to see, because I bent down and covered my

  58. 1 husband up with a blanket and I stroked his face, and

    2 I told him, "take care", and we went off, and they were

    3 then carried into those trucks.

    4 Q. Just before you left, as you said, you left

    5 your husband, did you ask Sljivancanin, where these

    6 buses, the third one especially, the military bus you

    7 referred to before was going to?

    8 A. Yes. When we were talking about those things,

    9 I myself reached the conclusion that some kind of

    10 execution was pending, because especially that military

    11 bus, I heard people saying that it was a bus for

    12 liquidation, and then I asked the major, "please excuse

    13 me, could you tell me where those buses are going?",

    14 and he said, "which bus interests you?", and I said,

    15 "my whole family is in the military bus so I am

    16 interested in that particular bus", because I saw that

    17 soldiers were standing around that bus watching over

    18 it. He said, "that bus, that bus will not go far

    19 because the people in that bus, darkness will swallow

    20 them up in broad daylight".

    21 Q. Have you ever seen one of the persons you saw

    22 boarding that bus again?

    23 A. I never saw any one of them again, though we

    24 had all hoped and expected that perhaps they were in

    25 captivity somewhere because we took with us in that

  59. 1 convoy only 74 wounded whom they wanted to take off at

    2 Mitrovica. However, we women and children rebelled,

    3 would not let them get off, so they went with us to

    4 this infirmary where we spent the night and then they

    5 drove us on in the morning.

    6 But again, we did not want to move on until

    7 the wounded joined us, because they told us we could

    8 not go to Croatia, that Croatia does not want us, that

    9 we would have to go through Orasje, that in Orasje the

    10 bridge had been destroyed, that buses cannot go that

    11 way. Then we women said, "never mind, we will carry

    12 the wounded but we will not leave them there in the

    13 infirmary", so we waited for another hour or two, and

    14 then the wounded were brought into the convoy and they

    15 were the only ones that we took with us from the

    16 Vukovar hospital.

    17 Q. I have only a few more questions. You just

    18 said that you left with those wounded in a convoy. Do

    19 you recall about the time this convoy left the Vukovar

    20 hospital?

    21 A. We thought that in the morning at 8 o'clock

    22 we would be moving, as they had said. However, later

    23 we realised that they had their own list on the basis

    24 of which they took away the people, all the men and the

    25 wounded from the hospital, because the European

  60. 1 Community representatives had still not arrived in the

    2 hospital, and those wounded had not been registered.

    3 The European Community people came only about 11, and

    4 it was then that they started registering the other

    5 wounded who were in the hospital and who were evacuated

    6 with us so that we set off some time after 11. We

    7 passed through the city centre because they told us

    8 that we should go to Velepromet, and then from

    9 Velepromet, through Bogdanovci to Vinkovci. That was

    10 the agreement reached between Dr. Bosanac, the European

    11 Community and the liberators.

    12 However, when we reached Velepromet they told

    13 us that we could not go through Bogdanovci because

    14 apparently there were mines there and they could not be

    15 held responsible for us, that Croatia did not want us,

    16 but that they would take us through Negoslavci to

    17 Mitrovica in Serbia.

    18 Again, we reacted. We said that we had

    19 nothing to do in Serbia, that we wanted to go to

    20 Croatia where we belonged, to Zagreb, to any other

    21 place, but that we did not want to go to Serbia.

    22 However, they had their own plan. In my personal

    23 opinion, we realised that they wanted these 74 wounded

    24 as well, and that is why they took us to Mitrovica,

    25 because most of our people ended up in Mitrovica, Nis,

  61. 1 and all over the place.

    2 However, those four buses, not one of them

    3 ever reappeared again. Only now at Ovcara have they

    4 been found where that terrible massacre was carried

    5 out, and this is disgraceful. I would forgive them,

    6 perhaps, if my husband had taken up arms and if that

    7 same Serb had a weapon and if they had shot at one

    8 another, but to kill the wounded that cannot defend

    9 themselves who have no arms, it is terrible. It is

    10 a crime that has to be punished, and I appeal to you on

    11 behalf of my husband, my mother, and the children, that

    12 they be punished.

    13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Ms. Dosen.

    14 Just to conclude my examination, I would like you to

    15 show a picture of the hospital building and the

    16 surroundings, and I would like to ask you, briefly

    17 just to show us the locations. That would be

    18 Prosecution exhibit number 8. It is the photo album

    19 titled, "Vukovar hospital", if I may ask the usher...

    20 And if you could, please, show her the fifth

    21 picture, picture number five? Yes, that is the very

    22 one.

    23 Can you please show us where the entrance or

    24 rather exit to the hospital building is, where you and

    25 your husband on the stretcher were taken out of the

  62. 1 building on the morning of November 20th, and please

    2 indicate it -- yes -- with a stick.

    3 A. Here is the exit just underneath this cover,

    4 this roof, and then you go out of the hospital this

    5 way, and then you go to the left, and this is the main

    6 exit. This is where the women and children were, and

    7 the civilians. This is the driveway through which we

    8 passed, and on the left- and the right-hand side were

    9 soldiers, and then we would pass through this driveway,

    10 and reach the street and here is the rear side of the

    11 hospital and behind the hospital were the buses, here.

    12 (Indicating).

    13 The two civilian ones then a military one

    14 then another civilian one and then here behind these

    15 buildings were the trucks.

    16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Ms. Dosen.

    17 That concludes my examination, your Honours.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    19 Cross-examination by MR. FILA

    20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the reason that I will

    21 have a few questions is the statement that I have just

    22 received from the Prosecutor that was taken from

    23 a child here in The Hague in the hotel.

    24 I am very sorry that all this happened to

    25 you, and believe me, I had no intention to

  63. 1 cross-examine you, except to express my condolences.

    2 While you were waiting to be taken away by

    3 the buses, did you see Ms. Katica Zera?

    4 A. Do I not know Ms. Katica Zera in person.

    5 I have never had any contact with her. I know her now,

    6 but there were so many people in the hospital, that we

    7 may have come across one another, but I simply did not

    8 know her name.

    9 Q. Could you please explain to me the time when

    10 you left the hospital, and how much time you spent

    11 outside until you boarded the bus and left with the

    12 other women and children?

    13 A. I came out of the hospital at 8 o'clock in

    14 the morning. All these things that were happening took

    15 place during that one and a half to two hours, next to

    16 the buses outside the -- behind the Vukovar hospital.

    17 Then I went back among the women and children

    18 and civilians who were in the hospital, and we all left

    19 together through the main exit, the other side, where

    20 the convoy was with the European Community and we left

    21 with them. This was after 11 o'clock.

    22 MR. FILA: Thank you. That is all, your

    23 Honour.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

    25 No re-examination? No.

  64. 1 Ms. Dosen, this court is very grateful to you

    2 for coming here to testify. You may now be released.

    3 A. Thank you too.

    4 (The witness withdrew)

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I call Tanja

    6 Dosen.

    7 (The witness entered court)

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you

    9 to make the solemn declaration, please?

    10 TANJA DOSEN (sworn)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    12 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    13 Q. Is your name Tanja Dosen?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And when were you born? What was your date of

    16 birth?

    17 A. On 10th January 1977.

    18 Q. Do you remember on the 6th September of 1995

    19 Mr. Milner from the Office of the Prosecutor came to see

    20 you and took from you a statement about the events that

    21 occurred in Vukovar in 1991?

    22 A. Yes. I remember.

    23 Q. And do you remember that the statement was

    24 taken down in the English language, and translated back

    25 to you in the Croatian language?

  65. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And do you remember at the time being asked

    3 to put your signature on the bottom of each page of the

    4 statement?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at this document

    7 that I now show you, please?

    8 Perhaps it might be given the next number in

    9 order, your Honours. There is no translation into the

    10 Croatian language.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be number 63.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Can you see your signature

    13 appearing on the foot of each page of that statement?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, any objection? Thank

    17 you.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Dosen, where did you spend

    19 your life, where you grew up before 1991?

    20 A. In Vukovar.

    21 Q. And did you live there with your parents?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And what was your parents' name?

    24 A. Martin and Ljubica Dosen.

    25 Q. And in 1991, I think you would have been

  66. 1 about 14 and a half years of age. Is that right?

    2 Towards the end of that?

    3 A. Yes. In January 1995 I was 15.

    4 Q. Now, even though you were quite young at the

    5 time, do you have a good recollection of the events

    6 that occurred in Vukovar, in particular in the latter

    7 part of 1991?

    8 A. Yes, I remember clearly.

    9 Q. And were you in Vukovar during the siege of

    10 Vukovar?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And were you with your mother and father

    13 during that time?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Now, in the latter part of November of 1991,

    16 did you have occasion to -- did your father leave you

    17 and your mother?

    18 A. Yes, because he was wounded and he was taken

    19 to the Vukovar hospital.

    20 Q. I have just had it pointed out to me that

    21 I think -- I do not know whether you said it or whether

    22 the translation made an error, but apparently you said

    23 you were 15 in 1995. I think you meant 1992. Is that

    24 right?

    25 A. Sorry, yes. 1992. I am sorry.

  67. 1 Q. Now, can you tell us how it was that your

    2 father became separated from you and your mother in the

    3 latter part of November 1991?

    4 A. After his second wounding, he was

    5 hospitalised for a short period of time, but he came

    6 home because there was not enough room at the hospital.

    7 When the building was on fire, since the second and

    8 fourth floor were burning, he could not take the -- he

    9 could not go down by the staircase, he tried to go down

    10 by a rope from the third floor balcony and his right

    11 hand was in plaster, so he was going down the rope, he

    12 fell and he injured his backbone and his arm and he was

    13 taken to the hospital.

    14 Q. And can you tell us when this was,

    15 approximately, that he went to the hospital?

    16 A. On the 14th or 15th November 1991, five or

    17 six days before the fall of Vukovar.

    18 Q. Now, did you then go to the hospital with

    19 your father and mother?

    20 A. No, I did not. My mother and I stayed behind

    21 and my father was taken away by some people who were

    22 there in front of the building.

    23 Q. I see. And did you then later go to the

    24 hospital? When did you go to the hospital?

    25 A. We went afterwards when the shelling had

  68. 1 subsided a bit. My mother and I went to the hospital

    2 then. However, they would not let me come to see my

    3 father because they did not want to tell me that he was

    4 immobile, so they took me back home and my mother

    5 stayed on.

    6 Q. I see. Now, did you then later go up to the

    7 hospital yourself?

    8 A. My father told my mother that evacuation was

    9 to take place from the Vukovar hospital and that we

    10 should go back to the Vukovar hospital together, so on

    11 18th we came to the hospital together.

    12 Q. And where did you stay when you got to the

    13 hospital?

    14 A. First we stayed next to my father, but since

    15 there was not enough room for sleeping there we were

    16 sent to the floor above the basement, but my father

    17 would not let my mother leave him, so I went with my

    18 granny.

    19 Q. Where were you and your granny staying?

    20 A. At the basement. That is actually the floor

    21 above the basement underneath the ground floor.

    22 Q. And how long were you there with your granny?

    23 A. I stayed that night and then Dr. Bosanac came

    24 and said that, "you cannot stay there", because there

    25 were very many people at the hospital because they

  69. 1 heard that there would be an evacuation and she said

    2 that who wanted to go to Velepromet could go there

    3 because there would be a convoy going to Croatia from

    4 there too, but then my mother came and said that

    5 I should not go because my father would not let us go.

    6 Q. So what did you do?

    7 A. Then I went to see my father and we were

    8 waiting there to see what would happen to us. My father

    9 was immobile and he wanted my mother and I to help him

    10 because there were not enough medical staff available.

    11 Q. So did you do that?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And what was the next thing that happened?

    14 A. The next day the Yugoslav army entered the

    15 hospital, and also the reservists, or rather people who

    16 lived in Vukovar before, but who were of Serb

    17 ethnicity.

    18 Q. And how could you tell the difference between

    19 the Yugoslav army and the reservists?

    20 A. The Yugoslav army were mostly young people,

    21 and they had five-pointed stars on their caps and

    22 reservists were older, unshaven, with long hair. They

    23 had four Ss on their caps or cockades.

    24 Q. And can you remember the date it was when

    25 these people came, the JNA and the reservists?

  70. 1 A. 19th November 1991.

    2 Q. What did they do when they came to the

    3 hospital?

    4 A. When they came into the hospital they first

    5 looked around to see who was there, then they walked

    6 around the hospital, they gave some people cigarettes,

    7 they provoked other people, especially the locals. Not

    8 the Yugoslav People's Army.

    9 And after that two soldiers stood at the

    10 entrance and did not allow any of the locals to get in

    11 any more and what happened after that in the hospital

    12 itself and in the room I was, there were not any army

    13 people left there. The door was closed and we could not

    14 see anything after that.

    15 Q. And what happened then, after that?

    16 A. Then on the morning of November 20th,

    17 a soldier came into the hospital. He had a list, and he

    18 was calling out the names of people who were wounded

    19 and who were staying at that hospital, saying that they

    20 should get out.

    21 My father, he was immobile, he was on the

    22 first on the list. They could not carry him out because

    23 they had to wait for a stretcher to be brought so that

    24 they could carry him out, rather.

    25 Q. And were you with your father at this time?

  71. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And what about your mother? Was she there

    3 too?

    4 A. My mother was also there.

    5 Q. And what happened?

    6 A. Then two nurses came who were supposed to

    7 carry my father. However, they were not strong enough

    8 because my father was rather heavy and then two

    9 soldiers came and they carried him to the back door of

    10 the hospital, to the road. They put him in front of the

    11 third bus, which was a military bus, and that is where

    12 they left him, and then we stood there and waited, what

    13 would happen next.

    14 Q. And what did happen next?

    15 A. I saw that in the first two buses, and in the

    16 fourth bus they put as many people as they could;

    17 however, the third bus was a military bus and only

    18 arrested people went into that one.

    19 Q. Now, the people that you saw going into the

    20 third bus, did you know any of those people by name?

    21 A. Yes, I did, because most of them were my

    22 relatives. Two brothers of my father, then also two

    23 cousins, my aunt.

    24 Q. And are you able to tell us now the names of

    25 any of those people?

  72. 1 A. Ivan Dosen, Tadija Dosen, Zvonko Vulic, Josip

    2 Kozul, Sinisa Glavasevic, Martinja Dosen, Ruzica

    3 Markobasic.

    4 Q. Now, what was the next thing to happen?

    5 A. While we were standing there, my mother asked

    6 a soldier where these buses were going, and he answered

    7 that he did not know, but since my father did not have

    8 any clothes on, she asked why they did not take him

    9 anywhere because it was rather cold, and then a soldier

    10 said that a stretcher could not get on the bus.

    11 Then they said that they would bring a truck,

    12 and Major Sljivancanin ordered a truck to be brought

    13 then.

    14 Q. Now, you mentioned Major Sljivancanin. How

    15 did you know it was Major Sljivancanin?

    16 A. When the Yugoslav army entered the Vukovar

    17 hospital, Major Sljivancanin came to the entrance and

    18 he introduced himself.

    19 Q. Thank you. And were you there when he did

    20 this?

    21 A. Yes, I was, because my father's bed was the

    22 first one by the door.

    23 Q. Okay. Now, what happened next? What was the

    24 next thing that happened?

    25 A. Then first they brought my aunt who was

  73. 1 pregnant. They brought her to this third bus and they

    2 started searching her, and they threw her things out of

    3 her handbag and then a soldier, as he led her into the

    4 bus, he put something into my mother's hand and my

    5 mother opened her hand and she said, "what is this?".

    6 It was money and she said, "why are you giving it to

    7 me? I do not need it", and he said, "you might need it

    8 and she will never need it again".

    9 Q. And what was your aunty's name, the one that

    10 was pregnant?

    11 A. Ruzica Markobasic.

    12 Q. And what happened then?

    13 A. Then two soldiers brought Martinja Jakubovski

    14 from the hospital in front of the third bus too. He was

    15 telling them something. I did not exactly hear what he

    16 was saying. I was just asking what was happening and he

    17 told me that I should stay calm and that everything

    18 would be all right and he boarded the third bus too.

    19 They took him into it.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Now, just look at this photo

    21 I show you:

    22 I would ask that the photograph be put on the

    23 ELMO machine beside you.

    24 Could you look now beside you there and do

    25 you recognise that photograph?

  74. 1 A. Yes. That is my aunt's son, Martin

    2 Jakubovski. He was also brought to the third bus and he

    3 was identified at Ovcara.

    4 Q. And he is the one that spoke to you when you

    5 were standing there outside the hospital, that you have

    6 just mentioned.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 64.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Now, after Martin

    11 Jakubovski-Dosen spoke to you, what was the next thing

    12 that happened?

    13 A. Then my mummy went to Major Sljivancanin and

    14 she asked him why my father was not taken away from

    15 there. Then he ordered two soldiers to take a stretcher

    16 and to take him to the truck, because the stretcher

    17 could not get onto the bus, and then my mummy said,

    18 "Well, would you take these things too?", and he said,

    19 "Well, he will not be needing those things". Then he

    20 probably realised what he had said, and then he turned

    21 to my mummy and said, "who do you think is going to

    22 carry these things of his?"

    23 Q. And what happened then?

    24 A. And then they put him down because the truck

    25 had not arrived yet, and then Major Sljivancanin told

  75. 1 me and my mummy that we should join the other women and

    2 children. We have never seen him after that.

    3 Q. Did your father say anything while this was

    4 all happening?

    5 A. While we were standing in front of the bus,

    6 he told my mummy to get me out of there and did she not

    7 see what was going on, and then he took off his

    8 wristwatch and he gave my mummy that wristwatch and in

    9 the hospital, in Vukovar, on 18th November, he gave me

    10 the chain he wore around his neck.

    11 Q. And what happened after that?

    12 A. After that, when we were sent to join the

    13 other women and children, for some time we stood in

    14 front of the main hospital building and then we were

    15 told to board the buses because the evacuation was

    16 starting.

    17 Q. And when you boarded the buses, where did you

    18 go?

    19 A. Then we went through the centre of town and

    20 we came to Velepromet. We just stood there for perhaps

    21 ten or fifteen minutes and then we were taken to

    22 Negoslavci. We also stood there for a short period of

    23 time and then finally we went to Sremska Mitrovica

    24 where we spent a few days.

    25 Q. And what happened after a few days in Sremska

  76. 1 Mitrovica?

    2 A. After that we went to Croatia. We went to

    3 Jakovo. We only spent a few hours there, then we went

    4 to Djurdjovac. We only spent the night there and then

    5 mummy and I came to Zagreb.

    6 Q. And have you seen your father since?

    7 A. Never seen him since, and I never heard

    8 anything about him.

    9 Q. And what of your cousin, Martin

    10 Jakubovski-Dosen. Have you ever heard or seen him

    11 since?

    12 A. Only when he was buried after having been

    13 identified at Ovcara.

    14 Q. And what about your aunty?

    15 A. She has not been identified yet. Nor has she

    16 been found.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your

    18 Honour.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    20 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    21 Q. Your Honour, first of all, I wish to express

    22 my condolences, because of the fact that this tragedy

    23 occurred, and the only question I have is about the

    24 time, if you know, when you went out. Were there other

    25 people there, I mean in front of the hospital, women

  77. 1 and children?

    2 A. We went out early in the morning.

    3 Q. At what time?

    4 A. I cannot exactly tell, around 7 o'clock,

    5 because the European Community arrived only around 11.

    6 I know exactly because I had my watch on my wrist and

    7 when I boarded the bus I looked at the watch and it

    8 was --

    9 Q. 11 o'clock?

    10 A. Yes, 11 o'clock.

    11 Q. And my last question, at what time did you

    12 last see Major Sljivancanin?

    13 A. I do not know exactly what time it was, but

    14 I just know that it was on the 19th November, before

    15 the evening began.

    16 Q. I am asking about the 20th. When did you

    17 first see him? You went out at 7 o'clock?

    18 A. Yes, we went out at 7.

    19 Q. And when did you see him?

    20 A. Well, how much time is needed to get from the

    21 basement to the street? Perhaps about 10 or 15 minutes,

    22 and then we stood there for about fifteen or twenty

    23 minutes when he came, then my mother talked to him.

    24 M FILA: So about half an hour, so perhaps

    25 around 7.30. Thank you very much and I apologise once

  78. 1 again for having questioned you.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions. Is there any

    5 objection to the witness being released?

    6 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. Well, thank

    8 you, Ms. Dosen, so much for coming here to testify.

    9 You may now be released.

    10 I wonder whether the Prosecutor feels that we

    11 may be able to hear the next two witnesses before

    12 lunch?

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I am not sure whether they are

    14 available, your Honour, but I would certainly call the

    15 next witness, and if an enquiry can be made, I am ready

    16 to proceed, put it that way, at least with the next

    17 witness.

    18 They may not be here though, your Honour.

    19 (Pause).

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the

    21 witness, I would like to ask both parties -- whether

    22 they are in a position to provide, whenever possible,

    23 to the court a copy, if possible in English, of any

    24 international agreement entered into by the Republic of

    25 Croatia between, say, June and December 1991. If they

  79. 1 happen to know of any such agreement, it would be most

    2 helpful to the court.

    3 (Witness entered court)

    4 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, we will

    5 make enquiries.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 MR. FILA: Your Honour, when you say,

    8 "agreement", do you mean agreements with Yugoslavia

    9 too, perhaps, or with some other states?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, not only with

    11 Yugoslavia, any international agreement. We have

    12 already been given an agreement.

    13 MR. FILA: Agreements with Yugoslavia are in

    14 the documents I provided to you.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I would like to ask the

    16 witness to make the solemn declaration.

    17 KATICA ZERA (sworn)

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    19 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    20 Q. Would you please state your full name?

    21 A. Katica Zera.

    22 Q. Ms. Zera, if you would like to have a drink

    23 of water at any time, there is a glass there for you

    24 for that.

    25 A. Thank you.

  80. 1 Q. Can you tell us your date of birth?

    2 A. 20th November 1960.

    3 Q. Ms. Zera, could you speak up a little bit?

    4 I know this is hard for you, so... but just move in

    5 a little bit. That is the idea.

    6 A. Do you want me to repeat it?

    7 Q. Yes, if you would not mind.

    8 A. 20th November 1960.

    9 Q. And where were you born?

    10 A. Bodjani, which is in Vojvodina.

    11 Q. And where did you spend the majority of your

    12 adult life?

    13 A. In Vukovar.

    14 Q. And did you -- were you married in Vukovar,

    15 and I am talking the period prior to 1991?

    16 A. Yes, yes. Yes I was. Yes.

    17 Q. And what was your husband's name?

    18 A. Mihajlo Zera.

    19 Q. And what did he do for a living? What was his

    20 job?

    21 A. A driver, a professional driver.

    22 Q. And who did he drive for?

    23 A. He drove for Cazmatrans, that is a company,

    24 and during the war, because he could not get out of

    25 Vukovar, he stayed in the town and the hospital needed

  81. 1 a driver, so he took the job.

    2 Q. And what did he drive? What sort of vehicle

    3 did he drive for the hospital? Can you remember?

    4 A. Well, at the beginning it was an ambulance,

    5 then a combi-van. It depends. When the vehicles were

    6 destroyed, then he drove whatever was left. Civilian or

    7 any other vehicles.

    8 Q. Now, did you and your husband have any

    9 children?

    10 A. Yes, two.

    11 Q. And what children do you have? What were the

    12 sexes of the children?

    13 A. Boy and a girl. A son and a daughter.

    14 Q. And when was the girl born?

    15 A. In 1981.

    16 Q. And when was the boy born?

    17 A. In 1978.

    18 Q. And can you remember your husband's birth

    19 date?

    20 A. Yes. 7th August 1955.

    21 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about

    22 the siege of Vukovar, and picking up at about in

    23 September of 1991 through to November 1991, now, during

    24 that time, where were you staying when the siege was

    25 on?

  82. 1 A. In September we came to the hospital because

    2 I am a diabetic and I take insulin and my husband

    3 worked in the hospital, and they worked all day and all

    4 night so he could not take care of us. So he brought us

    5 there, and our part of town had fallen. It was under

    6 the JNA, so we could not stay in our own house, so we

    7 spent all that time in the hospital from September

    8 until the fall of Vukovar.

    9 Q. And what part of the hospital did he stay in?

    10 A. In the old building in the basement.

    11 Q. During the time you were in the hospital, did

    12 you come to learn of the fact that there would be an

    13 evacuation of the people from the hospital?

    14 A. Yes, yes. When Vukovar fell, this was the

    15 17th, we heard that there would be an evacuation the

    16 next day, but it did not happen. It was postponed, day

    17 after day until the 20th, finally.

    18 Q. Who told you that there was going to be an

    19 evacuation?

    20 A. My husband.

    21 Q. And perhaps going back to about 18th November

    22 1991, were you still in the hospital at that stage?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And what happened? Did anything happen on

    25 18th November?

  83. 1 A. Well, the army came. This was the regular

    2 army, and after that others came too.

    3 Q. And when you say, "the regular army", are you

    4 referring to the Yugoslav People's Army?

    5 A. Yes. Yes.

    6 Q. And how did you determine that they were the

    7 Yugoslav People's Army that came?

    8 A. They were young, young men, tidy, and they

    9 had five-pointed stars on their caps.

    10 Q. Now, when they came to the hospital on

    11 18th November what did they do?

    12 A. They lined up. They were standing there in

    13 the corridors. It is hard for me to tell now. And they

    14 were outside too.

    15 Q. And did anything else of note happen on

    16 18th November, that you can now remember?

    17 A. I remember that others also came, as I said.

    18 I think that these are paramilitaries, locals from

    19 Vukovar.

    20 Q. And what made you think that they were

    21 paramilitaries as opposed to the JNA?

    22 A. On their caps they had four Ss. They were

    23 unkempt, beards, long hair, they even had cockades,

    24 some of them, and they were older.

    25 Q. And did they do anything that you could see

  84. 1 or remember now?

    2 A. Well, I saw that they were walking around the

    3 corridors, that they were looking at the wounded, and

    4 I know that they would recognise them. They would

    5 recognise people.

    6 Q. Okay. Now, what was the next thing to happen,

    7 after these soldiers had came?

    8 A. Some came in, others went out. There was

    9 always someone around.

    10 Q. Now, if we can take you to the morning of

    11 20th November, 1991, did you see your husband on that

    12 day, on that -- in the morning of that day?

    13 A. Yes, I did, in the morning.

    14 Q. And what did he say to you?

    15 A. He said that he would come to fetch us

    16 because we were in a small room in the basement. Myself

    17 with the children, and another woman with her children,

    18 her husband was my husband's colleague. He was also

    19 a driver.

    20 They told us not to go out until they came to

    21 fetch us.

    22 Q. What was the name of your husband's colleague

    23 who was also a driver?

    24 A. Ilija Asazanin.

    25 Q. About what time in the morning was it when

  85. 1 your husband told you this?

    2 A. I did not have a watch, and I do not know.

    3 I cannot tell you.

    4 Q. Okay. And did you then -- did your husband

    5 come back as was planned?

    6 A. Yes. Yes. Both he and Ilija came back to

    7 fetch us, and we went out together. We went as far as

    8 the exit.

    9 Q. And when you got to the exit, what happened

    10 then?

    11 A. Next to the door was Major Sljivancanin, and

    12 a lot of soldiers. He told us that the men should go to

    13 one side and the women and children to another.

    14 Q. How did you know it was Major Sljivancanin

    15 that said this?

    16 A. He introduced himself. He delivered a speech.

    17 He introduced himself.

    18 Q. And then did you have a conversation with

    19 your husband at that point?

    20 A. Yes. When he said that we should separate my

    21 husband stopped for a while. I asked him whether he

    22 needed any money. He did not want anything. He just

    23 wanted to congratulate me on my birthday because it was

    24 my birthday that day, and while we were standing there

    25 for a moment, Major Sljivancanin came up and said,

  86. 1 "come on, hurry up, you have to separate now".

    2 Q. And what happened next?

    3 A. My husband and his colleague joined the group

    4 that was already there. I just stood and watched, and

    5 then we went to the side where the women and children

    6 were and we joined them.

    7 Q. And did you see your husband after that?

    8 A. No. Never again.

    9 Q. Now, what happened to the women and children?

    10 A. We waited for the buses, and after quite some

    11 time, I cannot say how long it was, the buses came, and

    12 we were evacuated.

    13 Q. On the last day that you saw your husband,

    14 can you remember how he was dressed?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Can you tell us how he was dressed?

    17 A. Yes. He had a sweat suit, a sweater, and

    18 a white coat and on his feet he was wearing sports

    19 shoes.

    20 Q. And do you remember whether he had any

    21 tattoos on his body at all?

    22 A. Yes, he did.

    23 Q. Can you describe the tattoos he had on his

    24 body?

    25 A. He had the date when he joined the army, the

  87. 1 date when he served in the army, and a heart with an

    2 arrow through it. Those were tattoos.

    3 Q. Do you remember whether he had ever broken

    4 a part of his leg?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. When did he do that?

    7 A. As a child.

    8 Q. And do you know whether or not it was the

    9 right or left leg? You may not remember.

    10 A. I do not remember, and when I was giving this

    11 statement his mother told me which leg it was.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Now, I want to you look at

    13 a photograph I am about to show you, and might this

    14 photograph be placed on the ELMO? I have a copy for

    15 Mr. Fila, and it be given the next number in order.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Number 65.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Please can that be placed on the

    18 ELMO? Thank you.

    19 A. Yes. That is my husband.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I tender that, your Honour.

    21 Now, after you and your husband separated,

    22 the women and children went off in one direction, and

    23 your husband went and you did not see him again. Where

    24 did you go?

    25 A. We were evacuated in a convoy. We spent one

  88. 1 night in Mitrovica in a sports hall. After that we went

    2 to Croatia.

    3 Q. Did you make enquiries as to what had

    4 happened to your husband after you left, after you

    5 arrived in Zagreb?

    6 A. Yes. Yes. I did. Along the way too in

    7 Mitrovica. There were people who had got to the

    8 barracks and then they joined us in the convoy. There

    9 was Mr. Simunovic, Jakob.

    10 Q. And what did you find out about your husband,

    11 as you made these enquiries?

    12 A. Not much, just that they got as far as the

    13 barracks and the compound there, then they were taken

    14 back to the hospital, and all the others stayed.

    15 Q. And what happened then? What did -- was that

    16 the only thing that you found out about your husband,

    17 right up until the present moment?

    18 A. Yes. I did not know anything else. I heard in

    19 Zagreb from Mr. Simunovic that he had been beaten in the

    20 barracks.

    21 Q. And did you hear any more? Did you make any

    22 other enquiries?

    23 A. Yes, I did make enquiries but I did not learn

    24 anything.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Okay. I have no further

  89. 1 questions, your Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    3 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    4 Q. Your Honour, as for the previous witnesses,

    5 I wish to express my regrets for what happened. I only

    6 have a few questions.

    7 Who spoke to you and when about this case

    8 among the Tribunal's investigators?

    9 A. Ms. Mira Draskovic. What do you mean, "when"?

    10 Q. On behalf of the Tribunal, the Prosecutor's

    11 Office. You said that you asked your mother about the

    12 leg and who was talking to you? Who was interviewing

    13 you and when?

    14 A. No, we were filling in a form for a --

    15 a search form in 1992, actually, and they wanted us to

    16 describe the body, whether there were any fractures,

    17 tattoos, or diseases.

    18 Q. We still have not understood one another. Did

    19 anyone, on behalf of the Prosecution, come to see you

    20 and talk to you and when?

    21 A. Among the Prosecutors? Yes, they visited us

    22 at home and asked us whether we would be willing to

    23 testify.

    24 Q. And who was it? And when?

    25 A. I cannot remember the date exactly. I know

  90. 1 that Ms. Mira Draskovic was there, and I cannot recall

    2 the name of the Prosecutor.

    3 Q. Which year was this? Last year? This year?

    4 A. Last year.

    5 Q. In 1997, then?

    6 A. Yes. After the identification of my husband.

    7 Q. Did you sign any statement?

    8 A. Not at the time.

    9 Q. When, then?

    10 A. Yes, I beg your pardon, I did. Yes. They came

    11 to our house and both I and my son signed the

    12 statement.

    13 Q. So this was last year, was it?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 MR. FILA: We do not have those statements,

    16 your Honour. Especially the son's.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: So far as I am concerned,

    19 neither do we, your Honour.

    20 MR. FILA: Do you not have one either. Oh.

    21 Never mind. Let us continue then, shall we?

    22 May I please take you back to the worst day

    23 in your life, but I have to do it. I do apologise. How

    24 did you leave the hospital on the 20th, all four of

    25 you?

  91. 1 A. All eight of us.

    2 Q. No, I am talking about your husband and your

    3 two children.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. When you were separating from your husband

    6 were you still altogether? All four of you?

    7 A. He went off with the group with the men

    8 whereas I and the children went in the opposite

    9 direction.

    10 Q. I would not have asked you if you had not

    11 omitted to mention your children.

    12 A. Yes. Myself and the children. You see,

    13 I stopped for a moment and was looking at the group, my

    14 husband and Ilija joining that group.

    15 Q. And the children?

    16 A. The children may have made two steps in the

    17 direction of the group in front of me.

    18 Q. Could you please tell us what time it was

    19 when you left, and how much time later did you see

    20 Major Sljivancanin, who introduced himself?

    21 A. I have already said I did not have a watch at

    22 the time. It was the morning. Maybe about 8 o'clock. It

    23 may have been before or a few minutes after.

    24 Q. I did not expect you to tell us the exact

    25 minute. So it was about 8 o'clock, and it was then that

  92. 1 you saw Sljivancanin?

    2 A. Yes, he was standing there.

    3 Q. When you came out, so when you came out you

    4 saw Sljivancanin straight away?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Thank you. When you were talking to

    7 Sljivancanin, was your son present?

    8 A. I did not talk to him.

    9 Q. No, when he was making the speech.

    10 A. Maybe they were a step or two away from me.

    11 My husband came up to me, he kissed me, he wished me

    12 a happy birthday and then Major Sljivancanin came up

    13 and said, "there is no hesitating, you have to

    14 separate. Each one to his side".

    15 MR. FILA: And your two children were there,

    16 a metre or two away from you? Thank you very much, and

    17 I apologise for having to ask you these questions.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing, your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 Ms. Zera, thank you so much for coming here

    22 to testify. I see that there is no objection to the

    23 witness being released so she is released. You may be

    24 released.

    25 Mr. Niemann, do you think we can call the last

  93. 1 witness?

    2 MR. NIEMANN: We are not in a position to call

    3 the last witness, your Honour, and I think we need to

    4 have a discussion with Mr. Fila about another matter, so

    5 I think it might be convenient if we could do that.

    6 I should indicate that after the conclusion of the next

    7 witness we will be making an application in closed

    8 session, so if that could be -- I just alert the

    9 Registrar to that so that if we could be in that

    10 position, so at the conclusion of the next witness, if

    11 your Honours please. I am sorry, this witness is not

    12 available just at the moment.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. So we --

    14 Mr. Fila? All right. We stand now in recess until 2.30:

    15 2.15. Is that all right? 2.15? Yes, 2.15.

    16 (12.45 pm)

    17 (Luncheon adjournment)









  94. 1 (2.15 pm)

    2 (The witness entered court)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Stand up, and make the solemn

    4 declaration

    5 DRAGAN ZERA (sworn)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    7 Examined by MR. WAESPI

    8 Q. Would you please state to the court your full

    9 name?

    10 A. Dragan Zera.

    11 Q. How old are you today?

    12 A. 20.

    13 Q. So in 1991 you were just 13 years old?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Where did you go to school?

    16 A. I went to school in Vukovar, and in Zagreb.

    17 Q. What is your profession?

    18 A. I am a salesperson.

    19 Q. Where were you living in 1991?

    20 A. Vukovar.

    21 Q. What was the profession of your father?

    22 A. Professional driver.

    23 Q. And who was his employer?

    24 A. He worked in Cazmatrans and in 1991 he got

    25 a job at the Vukovar hospital.

  95. 1 Q. Was there a time when you left your home and

    2 went to live at the hospital in 1991?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Can you indicate what time that was, if you

    5 recall?

    6 A. On 17th September 1991.

    7 Q. Did somebody else from your family move with

    8 you to the hospital, or was already there at that time?

    9 A. Yes, my mother and my sister went with him --

    10 with me and since my father was already working there

    11 he was there.

    12 Q. How many nights did you spend at the Vukovar

    13 hospital?

    14 A. The nights from 17th September until

    15 20th November.

    16 MR. WAESPI: I would like now to show you

    17 a picture, and that would be Prosecution exhibit number

    18 8. It is again the fifth photograph. Thank you.

    19 Dragan, do you recognise this building?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Can you now explain to us what you have seen

    22 on the morning of 20th November 1991 when you were

    23 taken out of the hospital, and if you may, you could

    24 refer to this picture. That would assist us, and if

    25 I may ask you, you have to indicate that on the ELMO.

  96. 1 A. On 20th November in the morning we got out

    2 here. This is where they separated us from my father.

    3 They said that the men should go to the left-hand side

    4 and the children and women to the right-hand side, then

    5 we were standing here for about two hours, next to the

    6 buses. (Indicated).

    7 Major Sljivancanin addressed us there. He

    8 introduced himself to us and he made a speech. We stood

    9 there for some time after that, and then we moved

    10 towards the buses that were waiting here. We were

    11 sitting on the buses for some time.

    12 Q. Yes. Can I quickly interrupt you? You said

    13 that you were taken out of the hospital and you

    14 indicated on the picture the exit. Can you tell us who

    15 told you to leave the building?

    16 A. The soldiers of the JNA army told us to leave

    17 the building.

    18 Q. You mentioned Sljivancanin. Did you know him

    19 at that time?

    20 A. No, I did not know him until he addressed us

    21 and until he introduced himself to us.

    22 Q. You said later that you left your father at

    23 the -- close to the exit of the hospital. Is that

    24 correct?

    25 A. At the exit of the hospital.

  97. 1 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you tell us the name of

    2 your father, and the name also of your mother?

    3 A. Mihajlo Zera and Katica Zera.

    4 MR. WAESPI: I would like now to show you

    5 another picture and this is the most recent Prosecution

    6 exhibit, I believe it is number 65.

    7 Can you tell us who this person is?

    8 A. That is my father.

    9 Q. And can you tell us when this picture was

    10 taken?

    11 A. This picture was taken in 1991 in front of

    12 the old Vukovar hospital.

    13 Q. Thank you very much. Last question, after you

    14 have boarded the buses, where were you taken to? Do you

    15 remember the route the buses took?

    16 A. We went towards the fairgrounds, next to

    17 Velepromet and then we went to Negoslavci where we

    18 stood for about half an hour and then we went to

    19 Mitrovica. We spent the night there and then we went to

    20 Croatia.

    21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. No further

    22 questions, your Honour.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    24 MR. FILA: No questions, thank you very much.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I assume there

  98. 1 is no objection to the witness being dismissed.

    2 Mr. Zera, thank you so much for coming here to

    3 testify. You may now be released.

    4 A. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the

    6 Prosecutor has anything to add.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, that is the

    8 evidence that we have available for this week, but we

    9 now wish to make a submission in closed session, if the

    10 court could go into closed session, your Honours, and

    11 my colleague Mr. Williamson will make the submission.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila? Any objection? Any

    13 comment? No?

    14 MR. FILA: No thank you, your Honour, no.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move on to our

    16 closed session, may I, for one second, take a few

    17 seconds of your time? I would like to take this

    18 opportunity to point out that we are now coming to the

    19 end of a good week of hard work, and on behalf of my

    20 colleagues and myself I would like to express to both

    21 parties, to the Defence and the Prosecution our sincere

    22 appreciation for their cooperative and helpful

    23 attitude. I think it is indeed gratifying to note that

    24 we all share the same concern, namely to ensure the

    25 accused an absolutely fair, effective and expeditious

  99. 1 trial. So thank you so much. I hope that the same

    2 atmosphere will continue also in the next weeks.

    3 I now suggest that we move to the closed

    4 session.

    5 (In closed session)

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    18 (redacted)

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    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  100. 1











    12 Pages 1099 to 1105 redacted - in closed session


    14 (2:40 pm)

    15 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 Monday morning)