1 DAY 9 Monday, 9th February 1998
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5 JUDGE CASSESE: And you will call witness...
6 MR. NIEMANN: Irina Kacic.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
8 I would like to thank the legal officers of
9 the Registry for kindly helping us; I wonder whether
10 you feel that we should now have the appearances again,
11 or can we do it without that? Not necessary. All right.
12 So we move on.
13 While we are waiting for the witness, may
14 I take this opportunity to ask the Prosecution whether
15 the Witness C has dropped out?
16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
19 Good morning, Ms. Kacic. I would like to ask
20 you to make the solemn declaration.
21 IRINA KACIC (sworn)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
23 A. Thank you.
24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN.
25 Q. Is your full name Irina Kacic?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. And where were you born?
3 A. In Moslavena in Slavonia.
4 Q. And that is in the Republic of Croatia, is
5 that right?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. And what is your date of birth?
8 A. 21st December 1951.
9 Q. Where did you do most of your schooling?
10 A. In Vukovar.
11 Q. And prior to 1991 where did you live during
12 your adult life?
13 A. In Vukovar.
14 Q. Is your nationality Croatian?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. And what is your religion?
17 A. I am Catholic.
18 Q. Prior to 1991 were you married?
19 A. I was.
20 Q. When were you married? What year?
21 A. In 1973.
22 Q. And who did you marry?
23 A. Petar, Petar Kacic.
24 Q. And as a result of that marriage did you have
25 any children?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. And how many children did you have?
3 A. Three.
4 Q. And what were the sexes of the children?
5 A. A son and two daughters.
6 Q. During the siege of Vukovar in 1991, where
7 were you staying?
8 A. First we were in the basement in our house,
9 and after that in a shelter.
10 Q. How long did you stay in the basement of your
11 house?
12 A. Until 15th September.
13 Q. And why did you leave the basement of your
14 house?
15 A. Because our flat was hit during the heaviest
16 raid at the time.
17 Q. And where did you move to?
18 A. We moved to a public nuclear shelter in the
19 centre of town.
20 Q. And how long did you stay in the public
21 nuclear shelter?
22 A. Until Vukovar fell, that is 19th November.
23 Q. And on 19th November, what did you do?
24 A. We left the shelter and headed towards the
25 hospital.
1 (12.30 pm)
2 Q. Why did you go to the hospital?
3 A. Because the army was in the town.
4 Q. And what did you expect to happen at the
5 hospital?
6 A. We were expecting that that would be the
7 safest way to leave town.
8 Q. And who did you go to the hospital with?
9 A. I went with my children and the other people
10 from the shelter.
11 Q. And when you say your children, do you mean
12 your three children?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What about your husband?
15 A. My husband was killed on 2nd October.
16 Q. That is of 1991?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. And how was he killed?
19 A. He was killed in battle. He was a commander
20 in Vukovar.
21 Q. And when you went to the hospital, where did
22 you go? What part of the hospital did you go to?
23 A. We had to enter the building and we climbed
24 to the first floor, though it was all damaged.
25 Q. And was this on the day of the 19th of
1 November 1991?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At about what time did you get there on that
4 day?
5 A. Around midday. Maybe in the early afternoon.
6 Q. And after you arrived there what happened?
7 A. When the army arrived at the building in the
8 yard the order was issued that all the civilians had to
9 leave the hospital.
10 Q. And was it said where they had to go, if they
11 left the hospital?
12 A. To Velepromet, yes.
13 Q. Now, did you go to Velepromet on that day?
14 A. No. I stayed in the hospital with the
15 children.
16 Q. And why did you stay?
17 A. Because Dr. Bosanac sent a message to say that
18 we could stay.
19 Q. Now, did anything else happen on that day
20 that you can recollect now? That is the 19th.
21 A. Nothing in particular. We had to go
22 downstairs where the wounded were, and we were expected
23 to stay there and wait to see what would happen next.
24 Q. And what happened next?
25 A. When we got there it was already night, and
1 then gradually people in uniform came in and called out
2 the names of our men, Croats, mainly soldiers. They
3 banged on the door. It was dark. We could not see
4 exactly who it was, but anyway, they were calling out
5 these people by name, because they thought that they
6 were hiding in the hospital.
7 Q. Now, these people that were in uniform, were
8 they on the Serb side or the Croatian side?
9 A. On the Serb side.
10 Q. And did you know -- you said they were in
11 uniform. What uniforms were they wearing?
12 A. Mostly uniforms of the Yugoslav army, the
13 grey uniform.
14 Q. Were there other uniforms other than uniforms
15 of the Yugoslav army?
16 A. They also had some of their own camouflage
17 uniforms, some of the soldiers.
18 Q. And when people were called out, do you know
19 what happened to them?
20 A. No, I did not see, but I think that they did
21 not find any of those whose names they called.
22 Q. Now, did this occur during the evening,
23 during the night-time?
24 A. Yes, during the night.
25 Q. And this is the night of 19th?
1 A. Yes. Yes. The night between 19th and 20th.
2 Q. Now, what happened on the next day, the
3 20th of November?
4 A. The next day in the morning we were given
5 orders to abandon the hospital, or rather to go out,
6 and we headed towards the exit.
7 Q. Now, who gave you those orders?
8 A. I do not know exactly who gave the orders,
9 but in any event, that was the message that we received
10 in our room, and people suddenly started moving towards
11 the exit.
12 Q. And when you say, "we moved towards the
13 exit", was it you and your family, your three children,
14 as well as the other people in the hospital?
15 A. Yes. Other people as well. Myself and the
16 children and other people of course, those who were
17 mobile, not the wounded.
18 Q. And where did you move to with your children?
19 A. I headed towards the exit with the children
20 and then we saw that something was happening there,
21 that they were separating the men from the women, and
22 when I got to the door I saw Mr. Sljivancanin. We stood
23 in front of him. He just pointed that I and the
24 daughters had to go to one side, and that my son had to
25 go to another.
1 Q. How did you know it was Major Sljivancanin?
2 A. At that moment I did not know, but I later
3 learned his name.
4 Q. And what happened when your son was separated
5 from you and your two daughters?
6 A. I just managed to address myself to
7 Sljivancanin. I said that he was a child, and that he
8 should not be separated, and he said that he would
9 check everything. I just managed to give him his
10 documents and take from him his bag and we were
11 separated.
12 Q. And when you say, "give him his documents and
13 take from him his bag", you are talking about your son,
14 are you?
15 A. Yes, yes. Yes. My son.
16 Q. What happened after your son -- after this
17 was -- after Sljivancanin said that he would check it?
18 A. Nothing happened. They did not check
19 anything.
20 Q. Where did you go? Where did you and your two
21 daughters go?
22 A. I and my two daughters went to the right
23 where I was told to go, and then we waited to be sent
24 somewhere. We had to wait. They said we should form
25 groups, one group that wanted to go to Croatia, another
1 group that wanted to stay in the hospital, and a third
2 group that wanted to go to any third countries. We
3 chose Croatia.
4 Q. Could you see what was happening to your son
5 at this point in time?
6 A. Very briefly. We just saw that they were
7 standing against the wall and they were probably being
8 searched to see whether they had any objects. This was
9 very briefly. After that we did not see them because
10 they went towards the exit to the other side.
11 Q. And was your view obstructed then, once he
12 went to the other side, the exit on the other side?
13 A. No, no, we could not see.
14 Q. So you could not see him after that.
15 A. No. Did I not see him after that.
16 Q. And what then happened to you? What was the
17 next thing that happened to you?
18 A. We waited for several more hours in this
19 small group in the hospital compound, and then buses
20 came to fetch us.
21 Q. And where were you taken by the buses?
22 A. The buses drove us in the direction of
23 Negoslavci, from Vukovar to Negoslavci. That direction.
24 Q. And what happened? Where did you end up
25 ultimately?
1 A. At the end we arrived in Sremska Mitrovica.
2 We spent the night there, and then the second day we
3 went to Croatia through Bosnia.
4 Q. Now, after you left the hospital in these
5 buses, did you see your son again?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And did you make enquiries about where your
8 son was after you got back to Croatia?
9 A. Yes, immediately. As soon as we got to
10 Croatia we asked where the people who had been taken
11 away from the hospital were.
12 Q. And did you -- were you able to find anything
13 out about his whereabouts?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What was your son's name?
16 A. Igor.
17 Q. And what was his date of birth?
18 A. 23rd August 1975.
19 Q. So at the time he was 16, was he?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How tall was he?
22 A. He was tall, about 1 metre 90.
23 Q. Now, on the last day that you saw him there
24 at the hospital, can you give us a description of how
25 he was dressed?
1 A. Yes, I can. He had jeans on, a jacket which
2 was then called a college jacket, an American
3 wind breaker. He had a T-shirt underneath. That is all.
4 Q. What about his shoes? What sort of shoes did
5 he have on?
6 A. Tennis shoes. White tennis shoes.
7 Q. And did he have any other items in his
8 possession that you knew of?
9 A. He had bits and pieces, like all children do.
10 He had a little teddy. It was not a teddy, it was
11 something like a mouse, actually, a brown mouse, and
12 that is what we found on him, and he had another small
13 dolphin that he had made by himself in wood and he
14 always held it in his pocket, thinking it would bring
15 him luck.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Now, I would like you to look at
17 the photograph that I am now going to show you, and
18 might this be placed on the ELMO, please? There is one
19 copy for the Defence.
20 Now, just looking at the photograph that is
21 now on the screen beside you --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?
24 A. I do. That is my son.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I tender that, your
1 Honours, and might it be given the next exhibit number
2 in order?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 69.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Kacic, would you now please
5 look for me at the next photograph that I show you, and
6 it is copied for the Defence. Perhaps that could be
7 placed on the overhead screen too, please.
8 Ms. Kacic, I am wondering if you would look
9 at the photograph on the machine there, actually look
10 at the machine itself, and if you could pick up that
11 little pointer that is there on the witness table, do
12 you see that brown pointer? That is right. Now, on the
13 machine, if you could look at that photograph and if
14 you point to the things that you recognise, can you
15 tell us what you recognise, please, in that photograph?
16 A. Yes. This is his key ring that we bought in
17 Senj. This is another key ring. This is a nail cutter.
18 These are little leather strings on which he wore
19 a bullet, and this is his silver chain, and I do not
20 know about the other objects. (Indicated).
21 Q. And do you recognise these as items that
22 belonged to your son?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when did you first see these items as
25 depicted on this photograph?
1 A. When we went for identification purposes in
2 Zagreb.
3 Q. And were you able to then make that
4 identification in Zagreb?
5 A. Yes. Yes we, were.
6 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your
7 Honours.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 70.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Kacic, I am now going to ask
10 you to just look at a very short piece of video, and
11 I might ask the technicians to hold the video in place
12 when it is played. I will just ask you if you are able,
13 to identify anything -- any of the things that are
14 depicted on this video. You do not need to point to
15 them, Ms. Kacic, because they will be on your
16 television screen, and if you could just tell us when
17 you see it so if that could now just be played and once
18 we get to the scene that you identify we will then hold
19 the screen for a moment. Can we do that?
20 A. Yes.
21 (Video played)
22 This is the soft little mouse that he had,
23 and this is the dolphin that he made in wood.
24 Q. Okay. Perhaps we could just go back to the
25 little mouse to start with just to start over again,
1 just the mouse, and would you just hold on the
2 mouse? Thank you. Was that a little soft toy that
3 belonged to him?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Yes. Thank you.
6 I have no further questions, your Honours.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
8 MR. FILA: Your Honour, except for my
9 condolences before this -- for the tragic loss of this
10 witness, I have no questions.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
12 no objection to the witness being released.
13 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours.
14 MR. FILA: No, your Honours.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Ms. Kacic, the court is most
16 grateful to you for coming to The Hague to give
17 evidence in court. You may now be released.
18 A. Thank you.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: May I propose that we will
20 now stand in recess until 2.30?
21 MR NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.
22 (1.00 pm)
23 (Luncheon adjournment)
24
25
1 (2.30 pm)
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I just thought
3 that I would indicate at the moment what our position
4 is regarding witnesses. We have two witnesses available
5 for this afternoon and tomorrow we anticipate calling
6 three witnesses, and then on Friday there is one
7 witness, sorry, on Wednesday, so today -- two more
8 today, three on Tuesday, and one on Wednesday and I can
9 give your Honours the names of those but I think you
10 probably have the list already.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, so today we would hear
12 witness number two and three.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. It is two and three on the
14 list, and four... no, that is wrong. I have not --
15 I can give you the names, your Honour, which is
16 a better -- it is the present witness in the court,
17 Ljubas, than Radocaj, than Schou, Witness A, and then
18 Brletic, and then Kypr. And that concludes the evidence
19 for this week, your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 MR. NIEMANN: This witness will be taken by
22 Mr. Waespi.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. First of all
24 I would ask the witness to stand up and to make the
25 solemn declaration.
1 ANICA LJUBAS (sworn)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
3 First of all I understand there is a problem with
4 the -- yes. Usual technical problem. There is some
5 noise. I gather that we would need a few minutes,
6 probably fifteen-twenty minutes to remedy this, to cure
7 this problem and I wonder whether the interpreters may
8 go on? I mean, is it really disturbing? Is it really
9 impossible for you to work with the --
10 THE INTERPRETER: It is very disturbing.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: So therefore we will have to
12 take a recess of ten minutes and -- it has stopped. Oh,
13 wonderful. So, all right. Wonderful, so you may
14 proceed.
15 Examined by MR. WAESPI
16 Q. Thank you, your Honours.
17 Ms. Ljubas, could you please state to the
18 court your full name?
19 A. My name is Anica Ljubas.
20 Q. And what is the place and date of your birth?
21 A. 2nd October 1948, Tomislavgrad.
22 Q. And Tomislavgrad -- and that is in which
23 republic?
24 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Could you tell us your nationality and your
1 ethnic background, please?
2 A. I am a Croat.
3 Q. Do you have a family?
4 A. I do. Three daughters and five grandchildren,
5 and I had a son.
6 Q. Can you give us the name of your son and when
7 he was born?
8 A. My son's name was Hrvoje Ljubas. He was born
9 on 26th January 1971.
10 Q. What is your profession?
11 A. Now I am a housewife.
12 Q. Where did you live in summer 1991?
13 A. In the village of Sotin, near Vukovar.
14 Q. How close to Vukovar is Sotin?
15 A. 10 kilometres away.
16 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the
17 village of Sotin?
18 A. The majority population was Croat.
19 Q. Now, turning to the events in summer and fall
20 1991, on August 24th 1991, did you hear on the radio
21 that Vukovar was attacked?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what was the effect of this news? Did
24 young men from Sotin go to Vukovar to join the defence
25 of the town?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was your son going as well?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What was the reason that your son did not
5 join?
6 A. Because his friend had gone, and he stayed on
7 in the village to help these people in Vukovar.
8 Q. Can you tell us the name of his friend who
9 went instead of him to Vukovar?
10 A. Drazen Luketic.
11 Q. What happened to this person in Vukovar?
12 A. He was killed on 24th when Dom Technike in
13 Borovo was attacked.
14 Q. Was there a funeral held in commemoration of
15 Drazen Luketic in Sotin?
16 A. Yes. On 26th. On 26th August 1991.
17 Q. Do you remember when this funeral took place,
18 when in the day of this 26th August 1991?
19 A. I remember very well. The funeral was
20 supposed to be at 4 pm, and at five minutes after five
21 aircraft bombed the funeral and the entire village.
22 Q. Did you personally see any impacts of those
23 attacks by the planes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us what you saw?
1 A. I saw parts of concrete strewn about, broken
2 glass. On the left-hand side there was a store. It was
3 destroyed then. Trees were uprooted, two women were
4 wounded.
5 Q. What was your impression? Were these planes
6 in any way associated with the JNA?
7 A. Those were JNA aeroplanes. Those of the
8 Yugoslav army.
9 Q. For how long did this attack, this air
10 bombing last?
11 A. There was one sortie and then they bombed us
12 and then they came back again and after that I did not
13 see them.
14 Q. Do you have an idea why the JNA attacked your
15 village? Was there any provocation from the side of the
16 people of Sotin, towards the JNA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was there any warning given by the JNA to the
19 people in Sotin before they attacked the village?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was there any defence in the village?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What happened then, after the bombing you
24 just described? Where did you sleep that night?
25 A. We were staying at our neighbour's basement.
1 Q. How was the night? Was it quiet or were there
2 further attacks?
3 A. Afterwards it was quiet. There were not any
4 further attacks that evening.
5 Q. What happened the next day, August 27th? Did
6 you again see presence of the JNA?
7 A. The next day we only went through the village
8 to see what had happened, where we were, whether
9 someone was killed, but the entire day this following
10 day was a quiet one.
11 Q. Did you see that day, this one or the
12 following, any tanks who had circumvented your village?
13 A. The next day we saw tanks. I personally saw
14 them -- 60, 80 tanks, I counted once.
15 Q. Now, what happened in the course of the
16 following night? Was there a time when you decided to
17 leave?
18 A. The next night we were informed by our
19 neighbours and those who were guarding us, women,
20 children, and the entire village, that they could not
21 take care of us any longer, that we had to get ready
22 and get out of the village because it was getting
23 dangerous. The army was already there, so we could not
24 stay on any longer, we had to go.
25 Q. Did most of the people in Sotin decide to
1 leave that night?
2 A. Yes. The entire village was evacuated that
3 night at 3 o'clock. The night between 28th and 29th.
4 Q. You said that the majority of the people in
5 the village of Sotin were of Croatian nationality, so
6 there were also Serbs living in that village. Can you
7 tell us what the reaction of those Serb people was? Did
8 they join you in leaving the village that night?
9 A. As far as I could see it was night-time. Some
10 had left, others had not. We did not know that, because
11 in the neighbouring village we saw that there were
12 Serbs also who got out together with us that night, who
13 were in the same group.
14 Q. Can you tell us exactly why you left the
15 village, your home village?
16 A. We left it because we were afraid. We saw
17 what was happening, that the army was there. They were
18 bombing us, and we were frightened and we did not dare
19 stay any longer.
20 Q. When was it the last time you saw your son?
21 A. 28th August 1991.
22 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more? Where did
23 you see him? In a car? What was your position at that
24 time?
25 A. I was also in a car, in a column. We joined
1 up with them at Ilaca on the highway towards Zagreb and
2 I found him there and I asked him to come with me to
3 Zagreb and he said, "mummy, no. I am going to Vukovar".
4 And that is when we parted.
5 MR. WAESPI: I would like to show you now
6 a picture. There are samples, also, for the Defence and
7 your Honours.
8 Ms. Ljubas, can you tell us, what is that
9 person on the picture?
10 A. My son. He was only 20.
11 Q. Have you seen him ever again?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I would like to tender that as the next
14 Prosecution exhibit. That is probably number 71, if
15 I am correct.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is 71.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Ms. Ljubas, can you
18 tell us where your convoy went to after you had left
19 Sotin that night?
20 A. It headed towards Zagreb and some people came
21 back because they thought that these times would pass
22 by and that we could stay on in the village. We still
23 had no idea what would happen to us.
24 Q. Did you arrive at the village of Opatovac at
25 a certain time in the next days?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you again see JNA soldiers forces
3 arriving at that place?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what was the reaction from your side? Did
6 you leave again this village?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And where did you go to afterwards, after
9 Opatovac?
10 A. We went towards Sotin, along the Danube
11 because we did not dare show up anywhere. We went
12 through the forest all night until we reached Sotin
13 because we knew that the army was in the village.
14 Q. Did you go back to your home?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Where did you stay? Outside Sotin?
17 A. In the forest down there at Orerada.
18 Q. For how long did you stay there?
19 A. Three days and three nights.
20 Q. Was there a time afterwards that you crossed
21 the Danube and went on to the other side?
22 A. Yes. A man took us to the other side of the
23 Danube on a boat.
24 Q. Was there somebody who told you to surrender
25 to the JNA?
1 A. Yes. The man who took us by boat. He said
2 that we should surrender and that we should not go to
3 the forest on our own because the forest was full of
4 soldiers.
5 Q. Did you surrender in fact?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. And can you tell us briefly how that went
8 along?
9 A. When they brought us in front of a building
10 there was some concrete and there was also something
11 green. There were a lot of people in uniform and some
12 in civilian clothes and we did not know who was who,
13 but we had suspected who that was, and they were
14 teasing us a lot, and who brought us should take us
15 back, and I started crying and I said that I had four
16 children and I said that if they wanted to they could
17 kill me right there and then and I said, "I hope you
18 will be fair and let my children go", but there was
19 a lot of quarrelling going on, they were getting us off
20 into a big vehicle where the army came, two soldiers
21 came, and they put us into this big vehicle and they
22 took us to Bac for questioning.
23 Q. After being questioned, were you returned to
24 Backa Palanka at a certain point. Is that correct?
25 A. After questioning they put us up in
1 a village, some village out there and we stayed there
2 until 21st or 22nd, I am not too sure what date it was,
3 and then the next day, the day after that, we were
4 wondering how long we would stay there on our own. No
5 one was coming to see us after that, so we thought that
6 we would go back to Bac to ask what would happen to us
7 and that is exactly what happened.
8 We went to Bac one morning and we asked how
9 long we would be staying there and a man showed up who
10 recognised my husband. Actually, my husband recognised
11 him, and said, "what are you doing there?", and he
12 said, "I do not know what we are doing here. We are
13 here", and he invited us to his office. He offered us
14 coffee and all that, and we asked, "what is going to
15 happen to us now? What about us?", and he said, "as far
16 as I am concerned you are free", and we said, "we do
17 not dare go out because if we do not have any kind of
18 certificate somebody will catch us again", and he said,
19 "you can go", and he said, "where do you want to
20 go?". We said, "we will go to Belgrade". We did not
21 dare mention that we wanted to go to Zagreb. So we
22 went to Bac, Backa Palanka, Pajo, Novi Sad, Sremska
23 Mitrovica, Sid, Bijeljina, Doboj, so we reached Mostar.
24 Q. Did you reach Zagreb at a certain point in
25 time?
1 A. We reached Zagreb on 16th November 1991.
2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. I have no further
3 questions.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
5 MR. FILA: Thank you. No questions.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 I assume there is no objection to the witness
8 being released. No objection.
9 Ms. Ljubas, I would like to express to you
10 the gratitude of this court for coming to The Hague to
11 give evidence in court. Thank you so much. You may be
12 released.
13 (The witness withdrew)
14 MR. NIEMANN: I call Duka Radocaj.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, I think you said
16 before that this afternoon you would call only
17 Ms. Ljubas and Ms. Radocaj?
18 MR. NIEMANN: Duka Radocaj.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Only two witnesses. We were
20 wondering whether you could also call a third witness,
21 because we have plenty of time.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think he is ready, your
23 Honour. Mr. Williamson is going to take -- Mr. Williamson
24 is going to take that witness but I do not think we
25 will be ready, your Honours. Whatever happens, we are
1 going to be short today and short tomorrow and short on
2 Wednesday, your Honour. It has been moving much faster
3 than we anticipated.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very
6 briefly, Witness A, who would be the next witness to
7 come, is ill today. He is suffering from the 'flu which
8 unfortunately I think he caught from me, but anyway he
9 is not here today.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes, and so you
12 cannot call the witness -- who on my list is number 6, on
13 the the confidential list which was
14 distributed to us on -- I think on Friday, last Friday.
15 I do not know whether --
16 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, that witness is
17 not ready to be called.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. Thank you.
19 I would like to ask the witness to make the
20 solemn declaration.
21 DUKA RADOCAJ (sworn)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
23 Mr. Niemann?
24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
25 Q. Is your full name Duka Radocaj?
1 A. Duka Radocaj.
2 Q. And Mr. Radocaj, what is your date of birth?
3 A. 12th October 1952.
4 Q. Mr. Radocaj, on 4th February 1996 did Mr. Kevin
5 Curtis from the International Criminal Tribunal visit
6 you and obtain from you a statement of your evidence?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And was that statement taken down in the
9 English language but translated to you in the Croatian
10 language?
11 A. It was.
12 Q. And after it was translated to you were you
13 asked to sign at the bottom of each page of that
14 statement?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 MR. NIEMANN: I now ask you to look at the
17 document that is shown to you, and might it be given
18 the next exhibit number in order, please?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 72.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Radocaj, can you see your
21 signature at the bottom of each page of that document?
22 A. I can.
23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I tender that, your
24 Honours.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Radocaj, where were you born?
2 A. I was born in Lovas.
3 Q. And up until 1991, where did you live for the
4 most part of your life?
5 A. In my place of birth.
6 Q. And that is in Lovas?
7 A. Lovas, yes.
8 Q. Now, during the hostilities in 1991 was Lovas
9 affected by the war at that time?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. Around the end of August and early September
12 of that year, where were you -- were you still living
13 in Lovas at that time?
14 A. I was.
15 Q. And did you observe that tensions were rising
16 considerably in and around Lovas?
17 A. I did, I did.
18 Q. And what did you observe?
19 A. Well, there was a lot of military people,
20 vehicles, in the surroundings, movement was not allowed
21 for certain periods of time, one was not allowed to go
22 to, or travel to Vukovar.
23 Q. And you mentioned military vehicles. Military
24 vehicles of what army?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the army that the vehicles belonged
2 to?
3 A. The JNA.
4 Q. And you also mentioned the town of Sotin.
5 What was the position in that town, which is near
6 Lovas, I understand.
7 A. The inhabitants of Sotin, somewhere in August
8 were evacuated. It may have been the beginning of
9 September, but they were evacuated and some of them
10 came to Lovas.
11 Q. Now, around about 22nd and 23rd of September
12 1991, were there further refugees passing through that
13 came to the village of Lovas from another town in the
14 area?
15 A. Yes. On 22nd, quite a number of people,
16 a large number of people from Tovarnik came to Lovas,
17 but there were people from other places as well, but
18 especially from Tovarnik.
19 Q. And what had happened in Tovarnik to require,
20 to have those people come to Lovas?
21 A. On that day the JNA attacked Tovarnik.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Now, just to assist their
23 Honours in locating these towns, might the witness be
24 shown Exhibit P4, which I understand is a yellow map
25 like that. (Handed).
1 (3.00 pm)
2 Thank you. Could that map be placed on the
3 overhead projector? Mr. Radocaj, I would like you to
4 look at the map that is in front of you on the
5 projector there and to pick up the small wooden pointer
6 on the desk in front of you and I wonder if you would
7 help us by pointing to some of the towns that you
8 mention in your evidence.
9 Firstly, can you tell us -- point to us the
10 village of Lovas? Can you find that there?
11 A. Here it is. (Indicated).
12 Q. Yes. And perhaps just so everyone can be
13 directly orientated, can you just point to the city of
14 Vukovar?
15 A. Vukovar is here. (Indicated).
16 Q. And Ilok?
17 A. Ilok is here. (Indicated).
18 Q. Okay. And one of the towns that you
19 mentioned, Sotin?
20 A. Here it is. Sotin. (Indicated).
21 Q. And that is -- perhaps we could close in
22 a bit on the -- can we project in a bit on that? Thank
23 you.
24 And another village that I believe you will
25 mention, Mohovo. Mohovo. Thank you.
1 A. It is here. (Indicated).
2 Q. And Tovarnik, that you were just referring
3 to.
4 A. This is Tovarnik. (Indicated).
5 Q. I think that will do for the moment. Thank
6 you very much.
7 Now, was there a very large increase in the
8 population of Lovas after the attack by the JNA on
9 Tovarnik?
10 A. At that point in time, actually, on that day
11 or the following few days, in my view the population
12 doubled in relation to the normal situation.
13 Q. Now, on the 10th October 1991, did you hear
14 certain news which was likely to affect Lovas?
15 A. Exactly on the 10th of October. You are
16 interested in that day only. On that day we heard news
17 that some kind of an attack was under preparation
18 against Lovas.
19 Q. And how did you come to hear this news?
20 A. We heard of it because a local person from
21 Tovarnik who was arrested allegedly fled from the
22 military unit that was pursuing him, and then he
23 brought this news from Tovarnik, or rather he alerted
24 us across the radio, by means of the radio.
25 Q. And what did you do when you heard this news
1 of the imminent attack on Lovas?
2 A. At that moment, since there were no defences
3 or anything, people gathered and discussed the issue,
4 and shortly after that the shelling started.
5 Q. From what direction was the shelling coming
6 into Lovas?
7 A. The shelling was coming from the direction of
8 Tovarnik.
9 Q. Now, what did you do when this happened?
10 A. I was there in the local community offices,
11 and since there was no one I headed back home.
12 Q. And what did you do when you went home? What
13 did you discover?
14 A. When I got home there were my wife's parents
15 and her brother, his wife, and two children staying
16 with me, so I talked to them and I wanted to go and see
17 my mother, who was living a little way from my house.
18 Q. And so did you then proceed to do that?
19 A. I started off and part of the way, maybe some
20 100 metres or even less, from the opposite direction,
21 or rather from the direction that I was heading for,
22 the firing started, that is in the direction of
23 Opatovac. Therefore -- my street is called Mlinska, and
24 the shooting started from the mlin, or the mill, and
25 that mill is on the road to Opatovac.
1 Q. And did you then return to your home as
2 a result of that?
3 A. After that I had to go back home because
4 I felt it was not safe to proceed, so I went back home.
5 Q. Did you then subsequently decide that you
6 would try and escape from Lovas?
7 A. My wife's late father said to me and my
8 brother-in-law that we should flee.
9 Q. And to where were you going to flee?
10 A. We were going to the village of Mohovo.
11 Q. And did you do that?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Now, when you arrived at Mohovo, what
14 happened then?
15 A. When I arrived in Mohovo from the direction
16 of my village there was daily shooting, which means
17 from the actual village of Lovas. Then I looked for my
18 brother-in-law, because we had got lost through the
19 fields of corn on the way to Mohovo.
20 Q. Now, once you had been in Mohovo, did you
21 decide that it would be better for you to return to
22 your house in Lovas?
23 A. I stayed briefly in Mohovo, and I went to
24 Ilok at one point to look for my brother-in-law who was
25 in Ilok, because I heard that he was there, and I went
1 to look for him because I had decided to go back to see
2 how the people who were in my house were faring.
3 Q. And did you then do that?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And how did you get back to your house in
6 Lovas?
7 A. I went back through the fields again in which
8 mostly maize had been planted so I thought that would
9 be the best way to get back.
10 Q. Now, when you got back there, what did you
11 discover?
12 A. Well, when I got back I did not find my wife
13 and the other people at home, but my neighbour told me
14 that my father-in-law had been killed but apparently my
15 wife was in the village. However, that same day
16 unfortunately she had been taken to Sid because they
17 were mistreated in Lovas, and they tried to save
18 themselves by staying with relatives in Dobanovci where
19 my father-in-law had a sister.
20 Q. And Dobanovci is in Serbia, is it?
21 A. Yes. That is correct, near Zemun.
22 Q. Now, what was the next thing that happened?
23 What did you do then when you discovered your wife had
24 gone?
25 A. That was the 13th, that was the date. On that
1 day I spent the night outside, near the house, hiding
2 in the maize fields which was also next to the house,
3 and during the night I felt very cold, so I climbed
4 into my own attic because at the time I did not know
5 that my wife had left that same day, so I spent the
6 night there, and in the morning, the next morning on
7 14th, in the direction of this village that I had
8 mentioned, Opatovac, a convoy of military vehicles went
9 by, tanks, trucks, jeeps, and all those other things
10 whose names I do not know.
11 Q. Were these military vehicles of the JNA?
12 A. To judge by the markings and the colour,
13 rather, yes, the JNA because they were just one street
14 away and I was watching from the attic and I saw that
15 they were olive green/grey in colour.
16 Q. Now, did you subsequently decide to go to the
17 co-operative building in Lovas and to, in effect, turn
18 yourself in?
19 A. No. A soldier picked me up because in the
20 meantime my mother had reached my house and a soldier
21 saw me there talking to my mother, and he picked us up
22 and took me to a house in the neighbourhood.
23 Q. What happened then?
24 A. He took me to a local person and asked this
25 local man whether he knew me, and then they took me to
1 the local co-operative where I had to register and
2 I was ordered to come tomorrow at 7 o'clock, to come to
3 work in that co-operative, the next day.
4 Q. And did you do that the next day?
5 A. I was forced to do that.
6 Q. And what sort of work did you perform?
7 A. All kinds of jobs, from feeding livestock,
8 harvesting the corn, and similar jobs, depending on
9 what the person in charge told me to do. Of course,
10 these jobs and all other local people were done by us
11 under the watchful eye of the soldiers, or armed people
12 or some local people under arms. There were some local
13 people as well.
14 Q. And did you continue this until the
15 17th October?
16 A. Exactly. Until 17th October. That is what
17 I did until then, and on that day orders were issued to
18 the effect that no one was allowed to go home, that
19 there would be some kind of a meeting within the
20 compound of the co-operative.
21 Q. And was there a meeting?
22 A. The meeting unfortunately was not held. It
23 was not held because the gentleman who were supposed to
24 hold the meeting, his name is Ljuban Devetak, he did
25 not show up that day for the meeting. However, a day or
1 two later I heard that he was in Ilok, that is what his
2 driver told me, that he was escorting the convoy
3 because on 17th October a convoy of citizens of Ilok
4 had left, heading towards Croatia, Zagreb.
5 Q. Now, when you went to this meeting where
6 Mr. Devetak did not turn up or did not arrive, were you
7 addressed by a person in military uniform?
8 A. There were several persons. One was called
9 "Captain", and there were several soldiers. They put
10 weapons in front of us and I saw a submachinegun among
11 these weapons and there were also automatic rifles
12 there, the ones they had.
13 Q. Did this person called "Captain" tell you why
14 you had been locked up? Did this person called
15 "Captain" say to you why you had been locked up?
16 A. That captain said to us that allegedly some
17 of the locals were shooting at his soldiers, and if
18 there would be no shooting that night, at us, that then
19 he would know that it was us who did the shooting, and
20 that we would be in trouble then and then he added,
21 "even if that does not happen you are going to be in
22 trouble, definitely".
23 Q. And so what happened? What did they do?
24 A. That night on 17th, we had to sit on wooden
25 benches all night with our hands on our backs like
1 this. (Indicated). Very often people were not even
2 allowed to move, because one of these people were
3 walking around, and if anyone would move they would hit
4 him with their hands and with other objects.
5 Q. Now, what did they do to you the next
6 morning?
7 A. I did not even underline that. That night
8 they did not even allow people to go to the toilet or
9 anything, and in the morning at one point, it seemed --
10 well, they had given us a few packs of cigarettes, so
11 we lit a cigarette or two, those people who were
12 smokers, and after that Devetak came with a group of
13 bodyguards or soldiers or paramilitary soldiers,
14 whatever they may be, and they started beating up all
15 the people.
16 Actually, before that, they had separated
17 a group that was supposed to be some kind of work
18 group. They were in charge of the electricity, but
19 there was not any electricity, and also the waterworks
20 were down.
21 Q. Now, when you say they started beating you,
22 what did they beat you with?
23 A. With everything that was available. That is
24 to say, starting from rifles, that is to say rifle
25 butts, various bars, then batons, their hands, some
1 kind of wooden sticks, et cetera, and they would even
2 put their knives into people's thighs.
3 Q. Now, a little later did they bring in a group
4 of four or five people who -- villagers -- who they
5 said had failed to attend a meeting?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did they do to them?
8 A. They put those people in front of a wall, in
9 front of us -- but I should have said before this, that
10 a group of some 20 people were put aside compared to
11 the place where we had spent the night and they brought
12 these people in front of this wall of this workshop
13 that was within this co-operative, and they were
14 beating them in particular because allegedly they did
15 not respond to the invitation to come to this meeting,
16 so these people were especially mistreated. I do not
17 know how to put this. These people were really
18 tortured. They stuck knives into them, they beat them
19 up, this wall was all bloody.
20 Q. A little later on were you then picked out
21 and told that you would be taken to a vineyard to pick
22 grapes?
23 A. Yes. Yes. That came afterwards. They said
24 that we would go to pick grapes, and they lined us up
25 as we were supposed to leave the village, we were
1 supposed to go to the farm that was at the outskirts of
2 the village.
3 Q. Did they say anything to you about land
4 mines?
5 A. No one had told us a thing about land mines.
6 Only on the way they said that if it was mined, that we
7 had laid those mines and that we would lose our lives.
8 They said something to that effect.
9 Q. Now, where did you go?
10 A. Unfortunately we were forced into this
11 minefield, and in my opinion we only had dear God to
12 thank for the fact that a military vehicle came by and
13 in it was some kind of officer, JNA officer. It was
14 a jeep or something of the sort, some kind of military
15 vehicle, but unfortunately too late, because several
16 people were already killed in this minefield, and they
17 were shot in the back from automatic rifles.
18 Q. Did anyone actually fall upon mines when you
19 were in the field?
20 A. We were spread out as far as my arms can
21 stretch. I mean, that far. And a boy was killed by
22 a mine, allegedly, but later people who were standing
23 closer to this boy told me that one of the soldiers had
24 pushed him onto that mine.
25 Q. Did they tell you to do anything with your
1 feet when you were in the minefield?
2 A. Yes. They said that we should move our legs
3 like when you are cutting the grass or clover, that we
4 should make it that kind of movement with our feet as
5 we were moving along.
6 Q. Now, you say this JNA jeep arrived with an
7 officer. What happened? What did they do when they
8 arrived?
9 A. I do not know to what extent you can imagine
10 all of this, because we were all confused, frightened.
11 They were quarreling between themselves and this
12 officer ordered these people to be taken out. I mean,
13 these people who were still alive or those who were
14 wounded, to get them out of the field. Actually, I was
15 the first one, and other people also de-mined the
16 field, according to the orders issued by a soldier who
17 was acting upon orders of that officer who was in the
18 vehicle. We had to de-mine -- we had to take these
19 mines away by hand.
20 Q. And how were you told to do that? Did they
21 tell you how to do that?
22 A. This officer ordered this soldier and since
23 I was the first one there who had to de-mine, the
24 soldier gave me instructions how I was supposed to do
25 it.
1 Q. And what did he tell you to do?
2 A. Since I am no soldier, no expert in this
3 field, I mean, I had only served in the previous army,
4 he told me that, to come to some kind of stick that was
5 there in the minefield in that field, and to pull it
6 towards myself, and to get this little wire off this
7 stick, and then we went to another one and then we cut
8 this wire because in the meantime somebody had given me
9 that nail cutter which I used to cut that wire.
10 Q. Now, where were the soldiers standing when
11 you were cutting through the wire of the mine?
12 A. The soldier was standing up on the road,
13 above this field.
14 Q. Now, the soldiers that had taken you out from
15 Lovas to the minefield, were they regular JNA? Did you
16 recognise them as regular JNA soldiers, or were they
17 some other force?
18 A. I did not. I did not know any of these
19 people, and now whether it was regular army or... how
20 do you put this... whether they were reservists, I do
21 not know, but they all had uniforms on. Those who were
22 forcing us into the field, we are talking about that,
23 right?
24 (3.30 pm)
25 Q. Did they have any insignia on them to
1 indicate that they were JNA?
2 A. They had those five-pointed stars, red
3 five-pointed stars embroidered, some of them.
4 Q. And the people that arrived in the jeep, were
5 they dressed similarly, in a similar way?
6 A. The soldier was wearing an olive green/grey
7 uniform whereas the previous ones had that light green
8 camouflage uniform on.
9 Q. Now, once you had finished de-mining and you
10 had de-mined a mine yourself, what happened then? What
11 was the next thing that happened?
12 A. Then one of the soldiers who had stayed on
13 with us ordered me to go and have a look at the people
14 who remained lying dead in the field, to go and check
15 whether any one of them was still alive.
16 Q. And did you do that?
17 A. I did, and I went from one to another, and
18 I did that.
19 Q. Now, what happened then?
20 A. After that the few of us who were left were
21 taken back to the yard where we had set out for this
22 minefield in the first place. These soldiers escorted
23 us to that yard, and when we came, the other ones who
24 had massacred those people before we went out to the
25 minefields reappeared and I remember one of them even
1 by name, his name was Petronije and he had an axe, and
2 he wanted to kill all the rest of us who had remained.
3 Q. But that did not happen. You were taken --
4 you ultimately went back to the co-operative building.
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes, because then there was a man who gave
7 them orders that they were not allowed to do anything
8 to us, because, on the other side was a kitchen and
9 a dining room for these people who were employed at the
10 co-operative and they were quarreling out there and
11 this man hid us there in the workshop and he did not
12 allow these men to come up to us any more.
13 Q. Now, I think after that you continued to do
14 forced labour from the co-operative building until 22nd
15 December 1991. What happened on 22nd December 1991?
16 A. On that 22nd of December in the morning we
17 were going to work, how should I put this, there was
18 a policeman there, a military policeman, and one of
19 these volunteers of Devetak was there and they took us
20 to the local police there, that they had set up. That
21 is where I was searched as soon as I arrived.
22 Of course, I forgot to say this, they had
23 tied my hands in the back. When they arrested me they
24 brought me there, they searched my pockets, and one of
25 these people there who was some kind of commander of
1 this police, he started beating me up, and he kicked me
2 with his boot up here in the face, and then he kicked
3 me between the legs and in various other ways, and this
4 military policeman was there too who had brought me
5 there with those two other guys.
6 After that I was taken to the basement where
7 they beat me all day. They tied my hands up this way,
8 they were stretched out, they beat me in different
9 ways, they put salt in my mouth, they beat me with
10 different objects, with their batons, with their hands,
11 they kicked me with their feet, they cut my teeth. At
12 one point, as it was getting dark, that is to say I was
13 there from the morning until late in the afternoon, it
14 was already getting dark, they wanted to use a drilling
15 machine in order to drill a hole through my leg but
16 they did not have the right kind of power to do that,
17 because something was wrong with their power generator,
18 so they did not drill through my foot. They only
19 drilled through my shoe, and the drilling machine had
20 only touched my flesh very little, and of course they
21 continued to beat me up until sometime during the
22 night, and then this Milosevic, I think, that was the
23 name of this commander, Milosevic, he gave orders to
24 have my mother brought in, and that my mother would
25 have to watch me being cut up, and when they went to
1 pick her up these policemen said that she would have
2 to -- that -- or rather that they told her that I would
3 have to watch her, you know, I mean the other way
4 around, that I would be watching my mother being cut up
5 and they told my mother that she would be watching me
6 being cut up.
7 Q. Did they do anything to your teeth with
8 pliers?
9 A. Yes. I said a moment ago, they tried to cut
10 my teeth. They cut about five teeth with pliers.
11 Q. How did they do that?
12 A. Those are pliers used to cut the teeth of
13 pigs. These are small pliers which have special
14 cutters.
15 Q. Now, what happened then?
16 A. I do not know where I should begin now. From
17 this cutting of my teeth or this situation with my
18 mother?
19 Q. Yes, sorry, did they bring your mother to the
20 police station?
21 A. They did. They brought my mother and they
22 tied her up, also with handcuffs.
23 Q. Now, what did they do then?
24 A. After a while -- there was no electricity, as
25 I said. Something had gone wrong with the generator.
1 I heard some crying or moans, I do not know how to put
2 it, because they were bringing another man to this same
3 cellar where I was throughout that day, and this man
4 was Manojlo Filic. After that they brought in two other
5 men, Mato Madarevic, and Vjekoslav Balic. They
6 continued to beat us all that night until the morning.
7 There were four men there and my mother, so
8 they beat us until the morning. It had already dawned.
9 They took away my watch so I did not know what time it
10 was, but it was daylight already, one could see
11 a little through the windows of the cellar. Then they
12 let my mother go, and they continued to beat us that
13 day, and that was already 23rd December.
14 Q. Now, did you then -- did your cousin's
15 husband, a Serb, come to the police station?
16 A. During the night my cousin's husband was
17 apprehended because he did not agree with them
18 torturing me, because he had heard I was being
19 tortured, and so he disagreed and then they locked him
20 up too, and then one of his friends who were in the
21 army went to find his brother in Tovarnik as we knew
22 each other through football connections, and so he came
23 to see me and said that he would save me.
24 Q. And were you subsequently saved as a result
25 of that?
1 A. Not straight away, but on 26th, because after
2 these events of 22nd and 23rd, we were released in the
3 night of the 23rd. I stayed home. I could not move. I
4 could not eat, I could not do anything, so this man
5 came on 26th, and he drove me to Bijeljina.
6 Q. And from Bijeljina, did you then manage to
7 get to Sarajevo?
8 A. From Bijeljina I managed to reach Sarajevo.
9 The road that was covered by my wife as well, as I had
10 heard, this man who saved me gave me a telephone
11 number, the number of the people where my wife was
12 staying, and these people, since I arrived at night in
13 Sarajevo, in the morning they immediately took me to
14 see a doctor.
15 Q. And then ultimately did you manage to get to
16 Zagreb?
17 A. The next day I arrived in Zagreb, and I was
18 treated at the clinical centre in Rebro, Zagreb, and as
19 a consequence of this beating my eardrum had been
20 pierced from the blows, so I was also operated on in
21 March 1992.
22 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your
23 Honour.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
25 MR. FILA: Thank you, your Honour. I have no
1 questions for this witness.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
3 no objection to the witness being released. Thank you.
4 Thank you so much for coming here to testify. You may
5 be released. Thank you.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 So I understand that -- tomorrow we will
8 hear three witnesses, and one on Wednesday. Is that
9 correct?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. The witness on
11 Wednesday has to be heard on Wednesday because we have
12 to book Czech interpreters. That has been --
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, but may I just
14 take a few minutes of your time? I wonder whether you
15 intend to call other witnesses in March, because we
16 have here a list which was distributed on the
17 29th January, and there are about -- more than six
18 witnesses listed for March.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand all of them
21 relate to exhumations.
22 MR. NIEMANN: The exhumation part of the case
23 your Honour, yes. There may be one witness on
24 international armed conflict, but other than that, they
25 all relate to the exhumation, and the investigator,
1 which will be the concluding witness.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. That means that
3 probably in March you may also be able to make your
4 closing statement, in that week of March. We have five
5 working days in March.
6 MR. NIEMANN: No, we will not make our closing
7 statement until the end of the case, your Honour, not
8 until the end of the Defence case.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes. You are right.
10 Sorry, I was wrong.
11 MR. NIEMANN: But we can close our case.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Close your case, that is
13 what I meant. Thank you for correcting me. So you may
14 close your case in, therefore, in that week of March.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. That is our
16 intention, your Honour.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: So therefore we can start
18 with -- I wonder whether Mr. Fila will be ready to start
19 in April. In April I think we have eight working days.
20 MR. FILA: I will be ready, your Honour.
21 I would like to say that I would finish in April, but
22 just in case something might happen, so I would like to
23 have some days in reserve, but judging by the number of
24 witnesses I should be able to complete my case.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. If
1 there are no other questions, we may now stand in
2 recess until tomorrow morning at 9.15.
3 (4.50 pm)
4 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)
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