1 Tuesday, 19 May 1998
2 (In open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the
5 registrar to call out the case number, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour.
7 Case number IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Slavko
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. As agreed, we
10 will do without the appearances and we could start
11 right away.
12 [From the OTP: Mr. Niemann, Mr. Williamson,
13 Mr. Waespi, Mr. Vos
14 For the Accused: Mr. Fila, Mr. Petrovic,
15 Mr. Kostic]
16 Mr. Fila, our next witness is Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. FILA: Yes, Lazarevic.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Lazarevic.
19 Could you please make the solemn declaration?
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
25 WITNESS: NEBOJSA LAZAREVIC
1 Examined by Mr. Fila
2 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you speak with the
3 investigator from the Fila office, lawyer Miroslav
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you please look if this is your
7 statement and whether you signed it?
8 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D82,
9 the English translation D82A.
10 MR. FILA:
11 Q. Is that the statement, Mr. Lazarevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. FILA: If there are no remarks, Defence
14 suggests this is submitted as evidence, D82.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: I see there is no objection
16 from the Prosecution. Yes, it is admitted.
17 MR. FILA:
18 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you graduate from law
19 school in Belgrade and when?
20 A. Yes, 1981.
21 Q. And then what did you do?
22 A. Upon my arrival in Kladovo, I was employed as
23 the Chief of the Secretariat at the Assembly of the
24 Municipality, then I was President of the
25 Municipality. After that, I was director of the
1 company, Termoment (phoen) near Kladovo. After leaving
2 Kladovo, right now, I am director of the firm, Solidano
3 (phoen) that's part of the electoral distribution
4 network of Serbia.
5 Q. In which period were you President of the
6 Municipal Assembly of Kladovo?
7 A. I was elected on November 27th, 1989, and I
8 was at that post until June 27th of '92.
9 Q. We're interested in the period of November
10 20th, '91. So I would like to ask you whether, on that
11 day, you saw Slavko Dokmanovic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The day before, did you -- where did you
15 A. I slept in the house of Slavko Dokmanovic in
16 Trpinja with Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic and my driver, Dragan
18 Q. So that's the night between the 19th and 20th
19 of November?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you please play the tape now, which is
22 the Defence Exhibit D2, from the start of the tape, so
23 when you see yourself, you will say "This is me," and
24 then we will go on to the tape.
25 (Videotape played)
1 Do you see yourself?
2 A. Yes, this is me.
3 Q. Who are the people that you see?
4 A. This is Mr. Ljoba Novakovic, President of
5 Backa Palanka. This is Mirko Dragisic, Rade Simic,
6 Mita Lolic, Djordje Milivojevic, Drago Ljubaliksic
7 (phoen), Rade Simic, Visa Maletic, Tomic, Slavko
8 Dokmanovic, Jova Cvetkovic. Slavko Dokmanovic. Mita
9 Lolic. Slavko Dokmanovic. Mirko Dragisic. This is
10 me. Rade Leskovac. Djordje Milivojevic, the director
11 from Backa Palanka. Dusan Niculovic, Boris Ivaskovic.
12 Q. I suggest that you look at the photographs,
13 and if you tell us if you are on any of these
14 photographs. And if you are, you will tell us which
16 The photographs are not too good, but the
17 technical capabilities are bad in Yugoslavia. We don't
18 have the ability.
19 Are you on that photograph?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where?
22 A. Slavko Dokmanovic, Mita Lolic, Mirko
23 Dragijic, and myself. So the four of us looking from
24 this side, from the left to the right.
25 Q. Thank you. Would you please tell us now how
1 you found yourself in Backa Palanka when the photograph
2 was taken; what were you doing there? How did you get
3 there? Why? With whom did you get there?
4 A. The previous agreement was to make a
5 delegation to go to Vukovar to take humanitarian aid,
6 but since I was friends with Mr. Ljuba Novakovic and we
7 worked in Backa Palanka and Kladovo, I set the place
8 for where we were to meet because Backa Palanka is a
9 place on the Danube, so that's the closest place to
11 Q. Okay. How did you get there on the evening
12 of the 19th and with whom?
13 A. Slavko Dokmanovic. On the 19th in the
14 evening at Slavko Dokmanovic's, I came with my driver,
15 Dragan Ivezic, and we spent the night there.
16 Q. When did you leave in the morning and who did
17 you leave with and when did you arrive at Backa
19 A. I had to leave earlier because of a prior
20 meeting with businessmen from Backa Palanka, so at six
21 in the morning, I left Slavko Dokmanovic's house with
22 my driver.
23 Q. When did you get to Backa Palanka?
24 A. Around eight o'clock in the morning.
25 Q. So Slavko got there later?
1 A. Yes, later.
2 Q. In Backa Palanka, you were until when,
4 A. After an informal talk, it was around noon.
5 Q. So until about noon. And then you left
7 A. We went towards Vukovar.
8 Q. So please continue the tape now.
9 (Videotape played)
10 MR. FILA: Stop. This picture that you saw
11 just now, could you play it back in order to see this
12 photograph. It's around 12 noon, from there, if you
13 can play the tape?
14 (Videotape played)
15 Q. Okay. Who is in the photograph?
16 A. Myself, Mr. Rade Leskovac, and a soldier, I
17 don't remember his name.
18 Q. Would you look at this photo, but only when
19 the court sees it. Then you can say whether you are on
20 that photograph and whether that's it.
21 Is that the time when you are leaving and is
22 that the place in front of the Municipal Assembly of
23 Backa Palanka?
24 A. Yes, this is in front of the entrance to the
1 Q. So is that about the time you're getting
2 ready to leave?
3 A. Yes, that's when we're getting ready to
5 MR. FILA: Okay. You can run the tape.
6 (Videotape played)
7 Q. What is this bridge that you are crossing?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear.
9 Q. From Ilok?
10 A. No, this is on the way out from Backa
12 Q. This is what we're watching now.
13 A. This is Tovarnik.
14 Q. Who is this now? What is this?
15 A. This is the road towards VELEPROMET.
16 Q. So it's Vukovar?
17 A. Yes, Vukovar.
18 Q. The outskirts of Vukovar?
19 A. Yes, the outskirts of Vukovar.
20 Q. Where are we now?
21 A. We're in the yard of VELEPROMET.
22 Q. Who are these people here? Who is this?
23 A. This is Mr. Kosic, Lazarevic, and Tomasevic.
24 Q. Let the tape run. Who are these people?
25 A. Goran Hadzic and Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan and
1 in the back Slavko Dokmanovic. This is Jaksic and
2 Kosic, Jovan Cvetkovic.
3 Q. This is all in the yard at VELEPROMET?
4 A. Yes.
5 (Videotape played)
6 Q. Is this the yard at VELEPROMET still?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What are we looking at?
9 A. These are people who at that time were in the
10 yard of VELEPROMET.
11 Q. Were there soldiers there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who are they?
14 A. Journalists, I think of Swiss television.
15 Q. And this?
16 A. This is Mr. Goran Hadzic, Mr. Goran
18 Q. Stop. Would you look at these photographs
19 now and tell us if you are on them?
20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D85.
21 MR. FILA:
22 Q. Are you depicted in this photograph?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now it's time to ask you
25 something. You left Backa Palanka at the time we
1 mentioned. Would you tell us what you left in, who was
2 in which car, how many cars? What happened from Backa
3 Palanka until you got to Vukovar?
4 A. From the yard of VELEPROMET --
5 Q. No, not from VELEPROMET, from Backa Palanka
6 when you are leaving at noon towards Vukovar. What is
7 the group?
8 A. We left in one car. We divided ourselves
9 into three groups. One delegation in Lada Niva with
10 Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic, myself and Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic
11 and Zoran Jevtovic.
12 Q. Who was driving?
13 A. Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic was driving.
14 Q. Go on?
15 A. In the other car was my driver with the
16 municipality's official car with Mr. Mirko Dragisic and
17 journalist Vukosav Tomasevic.
18 Q. And the third vehicle?
19 A. The third vehicle was Mr. Rade Leskovac.
20 That was his private car.
21 Q. And then what happened?
22 A. We went towards Vukovar and we entered
23 VELEPROMET around two o'clock.
24 Q. So you arrived with three cars or something
25 happened en route?
1 A. En route, Mr. Rade Leskovac had a flat tyre,
2 so we had to stop. Mr. Rade Leskovac then came into
3 our car with Slavko Dokmanovic, Zoran Leskovac and
5 Q. So there was five of you then. So that is
6 how you entered into VELEPROMET then?
7 Wait for ten seconds before you respond.
8 We stopped the tape, as you saw in the
9 photograph, around 14.29 where you recognised
10 yourself. In that time, are you in the yard of
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Describe the yard for us, where it is? When
14 you come in, do you pass a gate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And ...
17 A. The car was in front of the gate. It was an
18 iron gate, a door towards the left when you come in on
19 the left side is the building, and then there were some
20 hangers, so all the time, when -- in VELEPROMET we were
21 outside. That's where we were.
22 Q. I'm talking about the people who came?
23 A. Mr. Mirko Dragisic, Mr. Jevtovic, Rade
24 Leskovac, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and Jovan Cvetkovic.
25 Q. At one moment Slavko Dokmanovic is no longer
1 there in the yard. What happened?
2 A. Slavko Dokmanovic entered the building for a
3 government meeting.
4 Q. How many entrances does that building have?
5 A. The building on the left only has one
7 Q. And how long did Slavko stay there?
8 A. We waited for him outside, so all the time we
9 were there, maybe until about three o'clock, which is
10 how long the meeting lasted.
11 Q. Could he have left the building without you
12 seeing him?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Around three o'clock, so later, you are then
15 going where?
16 A. We're going towards the centre of Vukovar.
17 MR. FILA: Play the tape, please.
18 Q. Explain to us what happens.
19 (Videotape played)
20 A. May I comment?
21 Q. Yes, yes.
22 A. This is outside of the building. We are
23 going towards the centre of Vukovar.
24 Yes. This is descending into the centre of
25 Vukovar. These are comments in the car.
1 Q. When you hear Slavko Dokmanovic's voice, say
2 "Now Slavko Dokmanovic is speaking," not what he's
3 saying, just that he's speaking.
4 A. That was his voice now. Slavko. This is
5 Rade Leskovac. Slavko's voice now.
6 This is Slavko. Slavko. Slavko's voice
7 still. Slavko's voice. Slavko. Slavko is still
8 commenting. Slavko. Slavko. Slavko still.
9 Q. Where is this now?
10 A. This is as far as you could pass near the bus
12 MR. FILA: Continue the tape, please.
13 A. This is Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and Vusko
15 Q. Who is speaking now?
16 A. Slavko Dokmanovic.
17 Q. Stop. Would you please look to see if you
18 are on this photograph?
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D86.
20 MR. FILA:
21 Q. Maybe it's a good time to clear up a few
22 things, Mr. Lazarevic. When you left VELEPROMET, with
23 which car and how did you leave?
24 A. The car was Lada Niva with Mr. Jovan
25 Cvetkovic as the driver, Slavko Dokmanovic, Zoran
1 Jevtovic, Rade Leskovac and myself.
2 Q. And in the second car?
3 A. In the second car was my driver with
4 Mr. Mirko Dragisic and Vukosav Tomasevic.
5 Q. You saw the photograph in front of you. At
6 the moment, is that the group that was in the centre of
7 Vukovar where it was taped?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where are you sitting in relation to Slavko?
10 A. All the time during that journey, I was
11 directly behind Slavko Dokmanovic, so Jovan Cvetkovic
12 sat in the front, Slavko sat in the co-driver's seat, I
13 was sitting in the back.
14 Q. When did you leave from the centre?
15 A. Around 3.30.
16 Q. When you left from VELEPROMET, all the time
17 were you together with Slavko Dokmanovic, practically
18 in the car behind Slavko Dokmanovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could he have gone somewhere without you
21 seeing him?
22 A. Absolutely impossible. Impossible.
23 Q. Where did you leave later from the centre of
25 A. We were going towards Sidski Banovci.
1 Q. Do you stop along the way?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many times and where?
4 A. We stopped twice. The first time, it was in
5 front of Negoslavci, and the second time near Orolik.
6 Q. Why the first time and why the second time?
7 A. The first time we were stopped by the police
8 because we caught up with a column of buses and
9 vehicles in front of us and we wanted to pass them, but
10 the police stopped us there.
11 Q. Wait. The first time, did you leave the car?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. So the first time, you were stopped by
14 the police, you don't leave the car?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Slavko Dokmanovic neither?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Then you go on. The second time,
19 where were you stopped?
20 A. This was on the barrier near Orolik where we
21 were stopped by the military police.
22 Q. Between those two stops, did you turn from
23 the road, left, right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When you were stopped by the military police
1 in Orolik, what happens?
2 A. There was a barrier near Orolik. We were
3 stopped by the military police, and there was an
5 Q. Would you please describe that in detail as
6 far as you remember?
7 A. Simply because there was a lot of traffic, we
8 wanted to pass. We were allowed to pass first, but the
9 military policeman did not let us pass then. He didn't
10 let us go further. Then, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and
11 Rade Leskovac intervened for us to be able to pass.
12 That didn't help. Then there was a conflict where
13 weapons were pointed at the whole group. They took
14 their weapons out, they pointed their weapons towards
15 our groups.
16 Q. This was on the side of the army?
17 A. Yes. At that moment, we all left the car.
18 Rade and Slavko were arguing with the police officers.
19 I had a verbal duel on the other side with another
20 police officer.
21 Q. Was this a military police officer or regular
22 police officer?
23 A. Military police officer. At the end, later,
24 Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic came out. We asked the Colonel if
25 we could -- they didn't let us, then they let us. Then
1 the military police officer and several of them, when
2 they noticed the insignia on Mr. Cvetkovic, the
3 captain's insignia on his uniform.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear the
5 last question.
6 Q. When you passed Orolik, you're going towards
7 Sidski Banovci. When did you get there?
8 A. We arrived in Sidski Banovci around 5.30.
9 Q. How long did you stay there?
10 A. My group, my delegation stayed there for
11 maybe about an hour.
12 Q. And during that time, Slavko Dokmanovic was
13 with you all the time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happens with him after that? What
16 happens with you? Where did you go?
17 A. After saying good-bye, our delegation goes
18 toward Kladovo, goes towards home.
19 Q. You say good-bye to Slavko Dokmanovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I want to ask you now: All the time from
22 VELEPROMET until you arrived in Sidski Banovci, was
23 Slavko Dokmanovic with you all the time and the other
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was there any time where he ran off somewhere
2 to do something maybe for five, ten, or more minutes
3 without you seeing him?
4 A. No, I was directly behind him.
5 Q. In the car?
6 A. Yes, in the car.
7 Q. Do you remember what kind of clothes he wore
8 that day?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What kind of clothes?
11 A. He had a camouflage hunting uniform.
12 Q. Is this a JNA uniform?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Could you take a look at this and could you
15 tell us whether that's it?
16 D48, please.
17 Could you please take a look and tell us
18 whether that is what Slavko Dokmanovic wore that day?
19 If you cannot recognise something, it's all
20 right. You don't have to recognise it.
21 Is that what he wore that day?
22 A. The vest, the trousers, and the shirt was
23 similar. I can guarantee for the vest and the
25 Q. Could you take a look at the vest?
1 A. This is a typical hunting vest.
2 Q. Are those the colours worn by the Yugoslav
4 A. No, this is camouflage huntsman's uniform.
5 Q. Did someone perhaps wear this on another
6 continent? Does the military on some other continent
7 where this kind of clothes?
8 A. No, I've never heard anything like it.
9 Q. Could I just add something; why this is
10 attire worn by huntsmen?
11 A. This is pockets and this is also where
12 ammunition is worn -- where ammunition is put. So.
13 Q. So you cannot put a Kalashnikov in here?
14 A. No, only ammunition for shot guns when you go
16 Q. Can I just ask you one more thing? We're
17 almost over. The city you can see on the pictures
18 where you're moving -- I mean on the videotape, the
19 centre, VELEPROMET, and all that, are you sure it's
21 A. Of course I'm sure.
22 Q. Are you sure?
23 A. I'm positive.
24 Q. It's not from some other continent, another
1 A. No, it's not.
2 Q. It's not Dresden, for example?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is it perhaps an American town?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Australian?
7 A. No.
8 Q. New Zealand perhaps?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Interesting. It's interesting how you guess
11 that this was Vukovar because there was a problem
12 yesterday because some people could not remember that
13 this was Vukovar. It was quite simple. Why? Because
14 you were there?
15 A. Yes, because I was there.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you explain now how come
17 this tape was filmed in the first place and why this
18 was done, who filmed it?
19 A. It was filmed by Mr. Zoran Jevtovic.
20 Q. Who is that?
21 A. That is the Director of Radio Djerdap and a
22 journalist from Radio Djerdap. He is also a friend of
23 mine so I asked him because I was going to Vukovar and
24 I wanted to have a memento of this visit and I wanted
25 to have it on film.
1 Q. Who was important then for Jevtovic at that
2 time when he was filming it?
3 A. The delegation from Kladovo, that was most
4 important. I mean this is the delegation that I led
5 from Kladovo.
6 Q. What was the delegation from Kladovo doing
8 A. We went there to take humanitarian aid.
9 Q. In Backa Palanka, did you split up, did some
10 people stay in Backa Palanka?
11 A. Yes, we split up.
12 Q. Why did you split up?
13 A. Simply one part of my delegation went to
14 visit our reservists.
15 Q. Who? Who? Who? Who are these people? I
16 mean these people who are here now in The Hague with
18 A. Doran Mitsolovic (phoen), the driver, Djordje
19 Milivojevic, Visa Maletic, Boris Ivaskovic.
20 Q. How much time did they spend with Slavko
21 Dokmanovic in Backa Palanka?
22 A. An hour or two. Well, we agreed to meet in
23 Backa Palanka after eight, so from eight until noon,
24 about four hours.
25 Q. You were together in Backa Palanka?
1 A. Yes, we were together in Backa Palanka.
2 Q. Was Slavko with you all the time?
3 A. (No answer).
4 Q. The tape that you saw right now, how did I
5 obtain this tape, this videotape? How did I get it?
6 A. When Zoran Jetovic came to Kladovo, that is
7 to say a few days after the tape was filmed, Zoran made
8 a copy of it and gave it to me and then I sent copies
9 of this tape to the people who are on the tape so that
10 they would have it as a memento for their archives.
11 Q. Did you send it to Tomasevic?
12 A. Yes, I sent it to Jovan Cvetkovic, Vukosav
13 Tomasevic in Prijepolje and the people who are from
14 Kladovo, they got copies in Kladovo.
15 Q. Was this in 1991?
16 A. This was in 1991.
17 Q. And of course at that time you knew that the
18 Tribunal would be established in The Hague in '93?
19 A. I didn't.
20 Q. You didn't know it?
21 A. I didn't know it.
22 Q. And you also knew there would be some kind of
23 Toma Fila on day, who would need this tape in 1997?
24 A. No, I didn't know it.
25 Q. You are saying this was an authentic tape
1 that was filmed in 1991?
2 A. Absolutely, yes.
3 Q. What you saw now on the screen, is that the
4 tape that you had then?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I just want to ask you something else in this
7 connection. How long have you known Slavko Dokmanovic?
8 A. I have known Slavko Dokmanovic since 1990.
9 Q. How did you get to meet him? Where did you
10 meet him?
11 A. At that time, Slavko Dokmanovic was President
12 of the Municipality of Vukovar, and I was the President
13 of Kladovo.
14 Q. Of the Assembly, the Municipal Assembly?
15 A. Yes, of the Municipal Assembly. And meeting
16 of the representatives of Danubian countries was
17 organised in Belgrade on the 15th and 16th of May,
18 1990, I represented Kladovo and Slavko represented
19 Vukovar and that is the beginning of our friendship.
20 Q. After that, did you meet him again,
21 afterwards, in the meantime?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many times? Were there any parties, for
24 example, or how come did you meet?
25 A. Yes, we had a very good working relationship
1 and Slavko also came to Kladovo to stay with me as my
2 friend. He even attended my wedding when I got
4 Q. Do you know his family too?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does he have a wife, for example?
7 A. Yes, I know his family, I know his wife,
8 Danuka, his daughter, his granddaughter, I know his son
9 Vlad, I know his brother, I know the neighbourhood.
10 Q. Where did they live?
11 A. They live in the village of Trpinja, not far
12 from Vukovar.
13 Q. You're sure this is the village of Trpinja,
14 not far away from Vukovar?
15 A. Yes, I was there countless numbers of times.
16 I would spend the night at that house, et cetera.
17 Q. Did you know of the reputation that that man
19 A. From many countless conversations I had with
20 his family members, with his neighbours, with his
21 relatives, with his associates in the municipality, I
22 knew that everyone had a very favourable opinion of him
23 as a man. First of all, as a person who was employed
24 in that institution, good and caring husband, parent,
25 grandfather, an exemplary person who lived in that
1 village. You could hear only the best about Slavko
3 Q. What was your impression? Was this an
4 aggressive man? Is he a man who is capable of doing
5 something that is contrary to Yugoslav norms, our
6 norms? I don't know about foreign norms, but our norms
7 of friendship, of being a good person, et cetera?
8 A. For all this time that I've known Slavko
9 Dokmanovic, it's impossible that he could have done
10 anything like that. He never would have thought of
11 anything like this. I mean, he certainly is not an
12 evil man with ill intentions. I mean, he is a quiet
13 family man, hard-working.
14 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, the Prosecutor of this
15 Tribunal has indicted him for being responsible in the
16 killing of 200 innocent people and played a key role in
17 that. What do you say to that?
18 A. This is absolutely untrue and impossible.
19 MR. FILA: Thank you. Thank you.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.
22 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, who made the decision for you
23 to go to Vukovar on the 20th of November, 1991?
24 A. The decision to go to Vukovar and to give
25 humanitarian aid to our assistance was passed by our
1 executive council.
2 Q. Was this a decision that was made in concert
3 with a number of municipalities in the area, or was it
4 something that was unique to your municipality?
5 A. No, this was a decision of the Municipal
6 Assembly of Kladovo.
7 Q. So other mayors or other presidents of
8 Municipal Assemblies happened to attend Vukovar with
9 similar motives, and that was simply coincidental?
10 A. I don't know about others. I just know about
11 my delegation and our trip to Vukovar.
12 Q. And when you went there, you went to see your
13 reservists; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That means people that had come from the
16 Kladovo area?
17 A. These were reservists from the area of the
18 Municipality of Kladovo.
19 Q. These are people who had been called up as a
20 consequence of the conflict in Vukovar; is that right?
21 A. Reservists from Kladovo up to the age of 50,
22 I think, yes.
23 Q. And they were members of the JNA, were they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you yourself weren't called up?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, when you went to, first of all, to Backa
3 Palanka -- and I think you went there on the day before
4 the 19th -- did you --
5 MR. FILA: Objection. He never said that he
6 went to Backa Palanka on the 19th. On the 19th, he
7 spent the night in Trpinja at Slavko Dokmanovic's
9 JUDGE CASSESE: It is for the witness to say
10 "Yes" or "No".
11 MR. FILA: But he said that. The Prosecutor
12 is saying that he said that he was in Backa Palanka on
13 the 19th. That is what the Prosecutor is saying, but
14 that is not what the witness said. The witness said
15 that he was in Trpinja on the 19th. Play the
16 transcript back and you'll see.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. But I think that
18 the witness is capable of saying that he didn't say
19 what the Prosecutor allegedly is attributing to him. I
20 wonder whether the Prosecutor may continue.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour pleases.
22 Q. Perhaps we'll clarify that point then. When
23 did you set out on your journey to Eastern Slavonia in
24 order to make the visit to the reservists? When did
25 you start that journey from Kladovo?
1 A. I left Kladovo a day earlier with my driver
2 on the 19th of November, and I spent the night, that
3 evening, the 19th at Slavko Dokmanovic's place, and the
4 other part of my delegation arrived the next morning,
5 on the 20th, in Backa Palanka.
6 Q. On the day, the 19th, where did you go?
7 A. On the 19th, I went to Trpinja to Slavko
8 Dokmanovic's house with Mr. Cvetkovic.
9 Q. And did you meet Mr. Dokmanovic on the 19th
10 apart from at his place in Trpinja?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where did you meet him?
13 A. We went to pick up Mr. Cvetkovic at Sidski
14 Banovci, and from Sidski Banovci, we came to Trpinja in
15 the evening by car.
16 Q. In order to get from Kladovo to Sidski
17 Banovci, what towns do you have to go through?
18 A. When we leave Kladovo, we have to go through
19 Belgrade, the Geldapa (phoen) highway to Belgrade, and
20 then there are two or three different roads, but then
21 we stopped in several places en route. We stopped at
22 several places, but our destination was Sidski
23 Banovci. First we went to Erdut.
24 Q. Did you go via Backa Palanka?
25 A. Yes. I stopped at Backa Palanka at one
1 point, but we just wanted to refuel there, wanted to
2 visit a family friend.
3 Q. Now, you went -- at the stage that you went
4 to -- you set off on the 19th, had you made the
5 decision then to visit Vukovar, that is before you set
6 off on the 19th, had you made a decision to go to
8 A. No.
9 Q. And why is that?
10 A. Our task was to take humanitarian aid. We
11 knew that fighting was still going on in Vukovar.
12 Q. And you didn't realise at that stage that you
13 would be able to go to Vukovar?
14 A. No, we didn't even think about that, getting
15 into Vukovar.
16 Q. And where was it intended that you would take
17 your humanitarian aid to the reservists? At what
19 A. Several places where our reservists were.
20 Q. Can you tell us where they were?
21 A. Well, part of them were in Trpinja, another
22 part in Ernestinovo, and a smaller part in Laslovo.
23 Q. I think you said you went to pick up
24 Mr. Cvetkovic; is that right? Or you did pick him up?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And why did you decide to do that?
2 A. Well, simply we had agreed to do so. I
3 simply wanted to see my friend.
4 Q. But how did you know to pick him up? What
5 were the arrangements made in order to do that? Was
6 that something that Mr. Dokmanovic had told you about
7 on the 19th or is that something that you discovered
8 independently of Mr. Dokmanovic?
9 A. We had agreed on that. In Erdut, we decided
10 to visit Jovan Cvetkovic with Slavko Dokmanovic.
11 Q. So it was Mr. Dokmanovic's decision, was it?
12 A. No, it was my decision.
13 Q. And you knew, obviously, that Mr. Cvetkovic
14 was at Sidski Banovci?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you knew that independently of what
17 Mr. Dokmanovic would have told you?
18 A. I said a few minutes ago that it was my
19 decision to go to see Jovan Cvetkovic, but I knew that
20 Mr. Cvetkovic was in Sidski Banovci.
21 Q. And how did you know that?
22 A. I knew because before that, we used to see
23 each other, and I know when he decided to go with his
24 reservists to the war.
25 Q. Why didn't you decide to go with your
1 reservists in the same way as Mr. Cvetkovic did?
2 A. Mr. Cvetkovic made his own decision, and I
3 admire him for it. But my decision at that point in
4 time was that I could help in other ways if I stayed at
6 Q. And help the reservists.
7 A. I don't understand your question.
8 Q. You could help the reservists in other ways,
9 is my question. Is that what you said?
10 A. No. My function was to be the first among
11 equals in Kladovo, and I thought that when I would work
12 in Kladovo and send this humanitarian aid, that I would
13 be contributing in that way. I had not been mobilised.
14 Q. So when you took the humanitarian aid to the
15 reservists, this was one way of you showing your
16 support for them being engaged in this war.
17 A. No. No, this was simply my duty as President
18 of the Municipal Assembly to come and see my own
19 people, after all, these are our friends, our
20 neighbours, our brothers. So it's not that we are
21 expressing support for someone. This is simply a
22 normal act. This is practice with us in the
23 Municipality of Kladovo.
24 Q. So you weren't trying to support them; is
25 that what you're saying? I don't understand your
1 answer. You're either there to give them humanitarian
2 aid in support or you didn't.
3 A. I don't understand -- I mean, what does this
4 mean, this kind of support? I'm sorry, but could you
5 please explain this. What do you mean by "support"?
6 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that you had reservists
7 from your municipality of Kladovo who were located in
8 the war theatre? That's a fact, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And isn't it a fact that you wanted to show
11 solidarity and support with them because of the tasks
12 that they were performing? That's true, isn't it?
13 MR. FILA: No, no.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Fila, he is saying "No, no"
15 over there, and I think it's very distracting for him
16 to be making comments when I'm cross-examining.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, please do refrain
18 from indicating your position.
19 Let us move on. Mr. Niemann?
20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. So that isn't true. So then why, just tell
22 us why you took this humanitarian aid to the reservists
23 from the Kladovo area if you didn't do it in order to
24 support them and assist them?
25 A. Simply we took humanitarian aid, cigarettes,
1 coffee, we took parcels that their families had
2 prepared for them, and this was simply a token of our
3 care in every possible human way. We were trying to
4 help our fellow citizens who were on the front. I
5 mean, this is the way we treated our people who would
6 go to the front or who would come back from the front.
7 Q. The next day, that's the morning of the 20th,
8 you went to Backa Palanka ahead of Mr. Dokmanovic and
9 you met him at the municipal assembly building in Backa
10 Palanka; that's right, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then followed a meeting of a number of
13 gentlemen that we saw on the video who met there at
14 that building; is that right?
15 A. First of all, this was a gathering of
16 friends. This was an informal meeting. I was the only
17 one who had already had a meeting scheduled with a few
18 directors from Backa Palanka, and this was simply a
19 gathering of old buddies and friends.
20 Q. Yes. Well, I'm not disputing that. What was
21 discussed at this meeting of old buddies and friends?
22 A. Some of these people hadn't seen each other
23 for quite some time, some people had been absent. I
24 had taken care of this -- these economic affairs that I
25 had to handle because, on the one hand, I was supposed
1 to bring this humanitarian aid, and on the other hand,
2 I was supposed to talk to these directors of various
3 companies in Backa Palanka. So these were friends who
4 met after quite some time. We talked about, naturally,
5 family affairs, also what was going on in terms of the
6 war, and also some of us, at least part of my
7 delegation, we were discussing economic affairs too.
8 Q. And in terms of things going on in relation
9 to the war, what did you discuss?
10 A. We were commenting on the situation that
11 prevailed in those days in that area. Nothing special.
12 Q. Was there any discussion about what would
13 happen in Vukovar once the conflict had ceased?
14 A. Could you please clarify your question to me,
16 Q. Did you discuss -- was there any discussion
17 about what would happen in Vukovar once the conflict
18 was over and the matter with the place was restored to
19 normal again?
20 A. No, no. The fighting was still on. On that
21 day, we found out that one could enter part of Vukovar,
22 and we weren't really discussing the future of Vukovar,
23 something like that. No mention was made of that.
24 Q. And when precisely is it that you found out
25 that you could enter part of Vukovar?
1 A. I can't say exactly, but it was during these
2 conversations there in the assembly of Backa Palanka, I
3 can't tell you the exact time, but during this meeting.
4 Q. And who provided you with this information?
5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I can't remember
6 now, but someone brought this piece of news into this
7 meeting room where we were sitting. Someone said that
8 one could enter part of Vukovar.
9 Q. Now, at this meeting in Backa Palanka, was
10 there anyone armed?
11 A. As far as I can remember, no.
12 Q. May I have Exhibit D83?
13 Just looking at the gentleman sitting at the
14 furthest end of the table, right at the top end of the
15 table. Does he have a weapon in his hand?
16 A. I can't really discern faces in this picture.
17 Q. I'm not asking you to tell us who it was, I'm
18 simply asking whether the gentleman at the far end is
19 holding a machine gun. I think it's a machine gun.
20 A. No.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Well, perhaps we could have a
22 look at the video, if we could, and could we start the
23 video at that point, around about 10.36, I think?
24 (Videotape played)
25 Q. Stop. Do you see that gentleman there with
1 something in his hand?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know what that is?
4 A. Probably some kind of weapon. Could you play
5 it back? Could you rewind it just a bit?
6 Q. By all means, yes. If it could just be
7 played back?
8 (Videotape played)
9 A. Yes, it looks like a weapon.
10 Q. Why was it necessary for people to be armed
11 at that meeting?
12 A. I answered that none of us wore a weapon, but
13 this is probably a person escorting Colonel Tomic
14 because he was the only one who wore a uniform in
15 addition to Mr. Cvetkovic, so I gather this is someone
16 from Colonel Tomic's escort.
17 Q. While we are with the tape, I think we will
18 deal with it now, if I may?
19 You said that the first stop that you made
20 after you left Vukovar at the end of the day, after you
21 left Vukovar, was at Negoslavci; is that right? That's
22 what you said in your evidence?
23 A. No, I said that we stopped for the first time
24 somewhere before Negoslavci.
25 Q. And how much before Negoslavci?
1 A. I can't say exactly, but it was directly
2 before the entrance to Negoslavci.
3 Q. Can you tell us in terms of metres, how far
4 that would be before you entered Negoslavci?
5 Approximately. I know you didn't measure it, no doubt.
6 A. It's impossible. I can't.
7 Q. Is it an area where there are houses or is it
8 open fields?
9 A. I think it's -- this is directly before the
10 entrance to Negoslavci, so maybe there were a few
11 houses and then you would go in, so it was directly
12 before the entrance.
13 Q. Thank you. And I'll just confirm this on the
14 tape so that it's the same place that we're talking
15 about, if I can? And might the tape be shown right at
16 the very end, 15.36, on the 20th of November?
17 After you leave Vukovar -- well, we're
18 waiting for the tape. After you leave Vukovar, are
19 there any houses between Vukovar and Negoslavci that
20 you can remember?
21 A. I can't remember exactly.
22 (Videotape played)
23 Q. Now, this is in Vukovar, is it not?
24 A. Yes, this is going out of Vukovar.
25 Q. And these are the last houses at Vukovar?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, this is -- what's this place here? Just
3 stop there, if we may?
4 A. This is when we met the -- caught up with the
5 column of buses with the people who were being
6 evacuated from VELEPROMET.
7 Q. And just for the record tell me again where
8 that was.
9 A. I can't remember exactly where.
10 Q. Well, as precisely as you can, perhaps.
11 A. I can't tell you exactly.
12 Q. I didn't ask you exactly. You said a moment
13 ago it was on the outskirts of Negoslavci, didn't you?
14 A. No, no. I said, when you asked when we
15 stopped for the first time, this is the road to
16 Negoslavci. Our first stop was before Negoslavci.
17 Q. And didn't you say that that was right at the
18 entrance to Negoslavci, your first stop, when you met
19 the buses?
20 A. Yes. When we were stopped by the military --
21 no, the police, that was the first time before and --
22 close to Negoslavci, before the entrance to Negoslavci.
23 Q. And that last clip that we saw with the
24 buses, was that the place that you're talking about, or
25 is it somewhere else? This one here that we're looking
1 at. Is this the place we're talking about or was it
2 some place else?
3 A. I can't tell you exactly whether that was the
4 place. Probably that was that part when we were
5 catching up with the buses.
6 Q. Tell us again: Where was it that you caught
7 up with the buses?
8 A. I said exactly at the entrance to Negoslavci,
9 on the road to Sidski Banovci, so somewhere on the road
10 before Negoslavci.
11 Q. Is there some doubt in your mind that this
12 part of the video represents that place where you met
13 up with the buses?
14 A. I can't tell you exactly or remember whether
15 that was that place exactly.
16 Q. Now, might the witness be given a copy, the
17 court copy, of the tape, D2, I think it is?
18 Now, Mr. Lazarevic, I'd like you to examine
19 it closely, take it out of its cover and look at it
20 closely. I'm asking you to look at the box in the case
21 and the tape itself.
22 Now, that's the videotape that you received
23 relating to your visit to Vukovar, is it not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when did you receive it?
1 A. A few days on the return of Zoran Jetovic
2 from Uzice, so a few days after our return to Kladovo.
3 Q. So you returned on the 21st, you would have
4 been back in Kladovo on the 21st, is that right, or the
6 A. It would be already the 21st, early in the
8 Q. And a few days after that, say -- what? --
9 three days after that?
10 A. I don't know precisely. A few days on our
11 return. So whether that was three or five days, I
12 don't know.
13 Q. So it could have been as few days as three or
14 as many as five?
15 A. No, I didn't say -- I said a few days.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, again I protest
17 that Mr. Fila is making comments in the course of the
19 MR. FILA: Mr. Fila turned his back on the
20 Prosecution. If necessary, I'll leave. I'll leave the
21 premises. With the permission of the court, I will
22 leave so that Mr. Niemann could ask his questions.
23 Thank you. And I will leave the gentleman to sit in
24 for me.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us please --
1 MR. FILA: If Mr. Niemann thinks that I am
2 disrupting the questions when my back is turned when he
3 made the remark, I turned my back and I will sit that
4 way throughout the whole process because that's my
5 protest, but I will go out for him until he finishes
6 posing his learned questions and then I will come
7 back. Is that okay?
8 JUDGE CASSESE: No, please do stay here and,
9 of course, I'm sure that you will go -- you will
10 refrain from making any comments and remarks, it goes
11 without saying, I am sure you will behave quite
12 properly, and I wonder whether Mr. Niemann could
14 MR. NIEMANN:
15 Q. So it could have been as few as three days or
16 as many as five that you received the tape?
17 A. No, I said it was a few days, so I don't
18 remember. A few days upon the return of Zoran Jetovic.
19 Q. I'm just trying to see if you could help me
20 as being as precise as possible as to what you received
21 the tape, that's all, and I'm just asking you if you
22 can think back to then and tell me whether you remember
23 it as being as few as three days or whether it was as
24 many as five?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, I'm sorry to
1 interrupt you, but I think that the --
2 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have to protest.
3 This is really not okay.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: ... That the witness is not
5 able to say how many days after his return back home he
6 received this particular tape, so he said a few days.
7 Can we move on to a further question? Clearly he
8 cannot remember precisely the number of days.
9 MR. NIEMANN: As Your Honour pleases.
10 Q. Now, who made a copy of the tape for you?
11 A. A copy of the tape was made by Zoran Jetovic,
12 the Director of Radio Djerdap.
13 Q. And this was the tape that you provided to
14 Mr. Fila?
15 A. Yes, this is my tape that I gave to the Fila
16 lawyers' office, and this is my handwriting on the back
17 of the tape here.
18 Q. And just finally, just going back to the time
19 you left Vukovar on that day of the 20th of November of
20 1991, is it your evidence that after you left the
21 centre of Vukovar, you did not stop until you reached
22 the buses? The vehicles did not stop at any stage or
23 make any turns or changes to your trip until you
24 reached the buses which you believe to be somewhere
25 near Negoslavci?
1 A. In my previous statement, I said that upon
2 our return on our way out from the centre of Vukovar,
3 we stopped twice: Once was shortly before Negoslavci
4 when we were stopped by the police; the second time we
5 stopped near Orolik. There was never any turning off
6 from the road until Sidski Banovci.
7 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
10 MR. FILA: I would like the witness to see
11 the continuation of the tape on the 28th and explain
12 how it was that the visit on the 20th and 28th is on
13 the same tape because that was the sense of the
14 questions, two, three, five days.
15 Please play the continuation of the tape of
16 the 28th so that we could see how both tapes are on the
17 same tape because that was the sense of the previous
19 (Videotape played)
21 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.
22 Q. Please note this tape. What is that? What
23 is this? When was this filmed? When did you receive a
24 copy of that?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could the witness please
1 answer the question asked by Mr. Fila?
2 MR. FILA: Stop.
3 A. This recording from the 28th was made during
4 the visit of the delegation, our delegation, from
5 Kladovo to the workers who were temporarily working
6 abroad who had collected humanitarian aid.
7 Q. Did you get both of those tapes on this
8 videotape that you have from Zoran Jetovic?
9 A. The visit of the 28th was added to this
10 tape. The visit on the 28th was recorded later and it
11 was added to the tape.
12 MR. FILA: Thank you. I think this has been
13 clarified now.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No further
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, it's really a question
17 for you rather than the witness.
18 We were given at the outset of these
19 proceedings a transcript which related to the tape, and
20 at some stage, it would be helpful to go through that
21 transcript -- it may be during the evidence of your
22 client -- and know who is speaking and when since we
23 have an English translation of it, and at the moment we
24 don't know who is speaking, we have had general
25 evidence about it, but obviously it would be useful to
1 know if it is possible to identify who says what.
2 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I would like to
3 respond right away to that question. It was promised
4 that the Dutch authorities would have expert testimony
5 on this tape, they would check the accuracy of the
6 transcript that I have given you, so in order to avoid
7 me talking, commenting, influencing -- as we have had
8 remarks from the other side -- I wanted the Dutch
9 authorities which cooperate with the Prosecution and
10 not with me to establish the accuracy of the transcript
11 that I guarantee the accuracy. This was done by the
12 Serbian police, the transcript by the Serb police
13 should not be trusted. The Dutch police can be
15 Unfortunately, Dutch -- the police, in spite
16 of promises from the Prosecution, has done nothing. I
17 am completing my witnesses next week because I have
18 said that in my country, people stick to their word and
19 not to their horns. In French and Latin, I will keep
20 my word, if you wish. If I get this attest as to the
21 accuracy of the tape by Monday, then I could show the
22 transcript on Monday. But in spite of Mr. Williamson's
23 efforts, because he did try to help -- I want to say
24 that -- the Dutch police has still not done this.
25 I would like to have the transcript and we
1 can show it to Mr. Lazarevic and we can play the tape.
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I would just like
3 to say that we've had nothing to do with any delay
4 associated with this. We merely acted as a conduit to
5 the Dutch police on behalf of the Defence. So any
6 suggestion that there has been no cooperation isn't a
7 consequence of anything we have done. We reject that,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
10 MR. FILA: If Your Honour -- if you listen to
11 me, I thanked Mr. Williamson just now for his help, so
12 I'm not really -- I am thanking him, but we are not
13 expert witnesses. The Dutch police did not do what it
14 was supposed to do, and Mr. Williamson enabled me to
15 get in contact with them. I don't have a copy of the
16 transcript right now.
17 Maybe we can have a break and then after the
18 break we can do that. I will photocopy the transcript
19 in five copies.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. Maybe we
21 could ask the witness to be so kind as to remain here,
22 so that after the break as suggested by Mr. Fila, we
23 could check the transcript.
24 Now, I wonder whether the Prosecution could
25 insist with the Dutch police that they should cooperate
1 and do what Mr. Fila asked for?
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we -- I am in no
3 position to insist on anything with the Dutch police,
4 and we have provided them with the material and they --
5 I'll ask Mr. Williamson to address Your Honour on the
6 specific details of it -- but as a matter of general
7 principle, we are in no position to insist on anything
8 of the sort. And all we can do is contact them and do
9 it in a timely manner, which we did, and it really
10 should be a matter for Mr. Fila to pursue, not for us.
11 We want to distance ourselves from it and not be
12 involved in it, frankly. It's a Defence matter. But
13 I'll ask Mr. Williamson to give you details.
14 JUDGE MAY: I think, to assist, it's not
15 really the accuracy of the tape as far as I know is in
16 dispute, unless there is some point made about it.
17 It's merely, if it's possible to identify who is saying
18 what, particularly what the Defendant says.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Which I assume can be done.
20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, if I can help?
21 Mr. Williamson gave me the contact. We called that
22 person and we found out that he was on vacation until
23 Wednesday. I can't do anything about that.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson?
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we made the
1 initial contacts with the Dutch laboratory just to find
2 out the feasibility of doing these tests. They had
3 indicated that it was a rather labour-intensive
4 process, that they have to take voice samples, and it
5 is not only picking out the voice of Mr. Dokmanovic but
6 they also have to eliminate all of the other voices, so
7 this is, as I understand it, a rather timely process.
8 I communicated that to Ms. Lopicic, we got
9 the tape and forwarded it to the Dutch lab. As
10 Mr. Fila said, the technician that was doing this was
11 on vacation at that time. When the Dutch laboratory
12 called us back to ask questions about it, I then gave
13 that information directly to Ms. Lopicic and suggested
14 she continue the contact directly with them, rather
15 than me being the intermediary and relaying information
16 from both sides. At that time we indicated we would
17 withdraw from the process and that the Defence could
18 communicate directly with them and work out everything.
19 But as Mr. Niemann has indicated, we don't
20 have any particular influence over them, and whether it
21 be for the Defence or the Prosecution, it is, in fact,
22 a favour that the Dutch lab is doing, although they are
23 charging for it so ...
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 MR. FILA: I even have funds from the
1 registrar, so we've done everything but you can imagine
2 how much influence I have on the Dutch police. A lot.
3 You can imagine.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: To take up a point made by
5 Judge May, I think Judge May is right in pointing out
6 that what is in dispute is not the authenticity of this
7 tape, whether or not the tape is authentic. It's a
8 question to verify -- verifying who is saying what. So
9 we could probably -- I wonder whether, after the break,
10 we could try to put names next to voices on the
12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, there is no problem
13 at all, but you will just have to go through the whole
14 tape again. Mr. Lazarevic knows exactly who is
15 speaking when, but you will just have to go through the
16 whole tape again. It is inevitable we have to listen
17 to it again.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Why not? I mean, if it is in
19 the interests of Mr. Williamson --
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: There is no objection from
21 us, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: And could use our transcript
23 and --
24 MR. FILA: It's strenuous.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. So we have
1 a 20-minute break, we will take a 20-minute break now
2 and --
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just before you
4 do break. Might I be excused after the break?
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
6 --- Recess at 10.38 a.m.
7 --- Resumed at 10.50 a.m.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: We have a transcript of the
9 tape in front of us. I wonder whether we could show it
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, before we
12 begin, I have one brief matter that I would like to
13 address the court on.
14 During the break, we have had an opportunity
15 to review the videotape of the proceedings which is
16 made contemporaneously as court progresses. On this
17 tape it is very clear that Mr. Fila suggested an answer
18 to the witness. This is displayed on the tape. We
19 understand that it is impossible to show that now
20 because the tape is continually used for the
21 proceedings. It would, however, be available at the
22 end of the day.
23 Mr. Fila took great exception when we raised
24 this issue, but we feel that this goes to the very
25 integrity of the proceedings and is highly
1 inappropriate behaviour; and therefore, we would
2 suggest that the court view this tape at the end of the
3 day's proceedings.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
5 MR. FILA: I just want to be quite clear. If
6 this trial -- people are recording what I'm saying to
7 my colleague, Mr. Kostic, I mean, what the Defence
8 attorneys are discussing here, then I would also like
9 to be in a position to see a tape to see what the
10 Prosecutors are doing at the other end, especially when
11 they are laughing while we are putting questions to the
13 I had my back turned to them, and it's quite
14 obvious -- you can see it very nicely on this tape -- I
15 turned my back to the witness when I was talking to
16 Mr. Kostic. I sign their statements, and I don't know
17 where they learned to behave this way. I mean,
18 listening to what the Defence table is discussing, it
19 is impermissible.
20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, would you allow us a
21 moment, please?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: The court has decided that
23 both parties should be called upon to refrain from
24 making any comments while the witnesses are being
25 examined or cross-examined.
1 Mr. Fila, please, when you question
2 witnesses, please don't suggest answers or try to
3 refrain from anything which might influence the
4 witness, and the same applies to the Prosecutor.
5 We will move on without going into this --
6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I just wanted to
7 explain something. I actually engaged Mr. Kostic
8 because I am not familiar with cross-examination and he
9 is, and I consult him on that. So I turn my back to
10 the witness and I talk to Mr. Kostic. I promise I
11 shall do that in the future too. I turn my back to the
12 witness and I talk to Mr. Kostic, and I believe that
13 that would be sufficient for the purposes of the
15 So now let us move on --
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might just
17 respond very briefly? I understand you have ruled.
18 This was not a question of him speaking with
19 Mr. Kostic. He had his back turned; the question was
20 asked. He turned his head and said "Ne," turned right
21 back. This is clearly evidenced on the tape. This is
22 not a question of us listening in on his conversations
23 or trying to interfere in any way with the carrying on
24 of their defence.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I did understand
1 what your position was, but I'm sure that Mr. Fila will
2 refrain --
3 MR. FILA: Thank you.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: -- will refrain from making
5 comments, and the same applies to the Prosecutor who,
6 yes, should not sometimes smile or ...
7 Thank you. Let us now try to move on and to
8 get down to business.
9 Could we now go through the tape, and we
10 would ask --
11 MR. FILA: Please, if possible, could we give
12 the witness a transcript, a copy of the transcript, if
13 it is possible, so that he could follow it too? This
14 is the transcript in Serbian. I mean, there is one in
15 Serbian and there is one in English.
16 The Serbian, please.
17 And, if I understood you correctly, whenever
18 you hear someone speaking, then he says who is the
19 person who is speaking; is that right?
20 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, when you hear someone
21 speaking, just say the name, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The Serbian transcript will
23 be marked as D87.
24 MR. FILA: Do you want the whole tape or only
25 the part from Vukovar, when they were going from
1 VELEPROMET to Vukovar and then from Vukovar to Sidski
2 Banovci? Do you want only that section, or do you want
3 the part from Backa Palanka too? I think it's not that
4 important, that first part.
5 It was page 6, I think. It would be page 6,
6 if the Prosecutor agrees only to proceed from page 6
8 JUDGE MAY: What I had in mind, there were
9 some comments on the way to Vukovar and going to
10 VELEPROMET. There were some comments -- I think
11 Tovarnik at about 12.20.
12 MR. FILA: That's right, we start from there,
13 I think -- not from VELEPROMET, from Backa Palanka to
14 Vukovar. I think that. That is twenty past twelve.
15 So please play the tape from twenty past twelve.
16 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you heard that. This is
17 twenty past twelve. That is when you arrive in
18 Tovarnik. Whenever you hear a comment being made,
19 whenever you hear someone's voice, you just say name,
20 "Toma Fila" or whatever. I think the system is quite
22 (Videotape played)
23 A. This is Zoran Jevtovic.
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, at
25 what point are we beginning, perhaps?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it page --
2 MR. FILA: I'm sorry. Again, I turned my
3 back. I wasn't looking.
4 Page 6 of the English version, twelve
5 o'clock. At twelve o'clock, they are in front of Backa
6 Palanka; right?
7 JUDGE MAY: We must establish on the English
8 version what is being said as well as in the Serbian.
9 I think it's somewhere near page 3.
10 MR. FILA: If you agree, we can start at the
11 point when they're leaving Backa Palanka. That is the
12 road to Tovarnik.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: But we have got to trace this
14 particular point on the transcript.
15 MR. FILA: Transcript.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
17 MR. FILA: Perhaps we can proceed in the
18 following way, if Your Honours agree? At 10.39, you
19 have in the transcript our handwriting saying Slavko
20 Dokmanovic speaking. That is page 3 of "SD: I respect
21 that." Page 3 of the English transcript. That is
22 10.39. Can we start from there? So please play the
23 tape from 10.39, please?
24 (Videotape played)
25 A. Slavko.
1 Q. And other persons. Whoever's voice you
3 A. That is the voice of Dragoljub Aleksic, the
4 President of Vrsac.
5 That's my voice.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: What we want to know is who
7 is saying what. So if he can probably, when the tape
8 has a few words, then he says, "This is me saying
9 this." Could he probably say the first few words so
10 that we can identify on the transcript the relevant
12 MR. FILA: Please rewind the tape to the
13 beginning, and you say what you're saying.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: This, of course, applies also
15 to what other people are saying. When he identifies,
16 for instance, Dokmanovic, say the first few words so
17 that we can pinpoint on the transcript the relevant
19 MR. FILA:
20 Q. You repeat the first words that he says so
21 that they can see and then you start by what I say.
22 Play the tape.
23 A. "Mirko, look at this over here." Can you
24 find it?
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe it's
1 the top paragraph of page 4.
2 MR. FILA: Yes. Line 7 from above, line 7
3 from above.
4 Do you want the witness to identify only
5 himself or everyone?
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Everyone.
7 MR. FILA: Everyone? Play the tape further
8 on, please.
9 (Videotape played)
10 A. Jova Cvetkovic.
11 Q. Repeat what he said.
12 A. "Reported ... the goals." Slavko.
13 Q. What's he saying?
14 A. "And look at what he looks like now."
15 Rade Leskovac: "Here, we go left here."
16 Q. Continue.
17 A. Rade Leskovac.
18 Q. What is he saying?
19 A. "Well, there is, there is also ..."
20 Q. Continue.
21 A. "Take four soldiers and come here." I can't
22 recognise the voice. It is someone in VELEPROMET. One
23 of our people.
24 Stop. Rade Leskovac.
25 Q. What does he say?
1 A. "Look at Arkan." Zoran Jevtovic.
2 Q. What is he saying?
3 A. "It might be more important to record the
4 ones down here."
5 Q. Continue.
6 A. Stop. Rade Leskovac: "What?"
7 Q. Continue.
8 A. Stop. Slavko.
9 Q. What does he say?
10 A. "The Captain is Jova Cvetkovic, a people's
11 deputy from Svetozarevo." Continue.
12 Stop. Jaksic: "From Svetozarevo?"
14 Jaksic: "How could I not know you?"
15 "Welcome." That was Jaksic. Continue.
16 Stop. Slavko: "A volunteer in Banovci, will
17 you look at that!" All right. Continue.
18 "People's deputy." Slavko. Continue.
19 I'm sorry. Could we just rewind the tape a
20 bit? Please rewind the tape. Make -- rewind it. A
21 bit more. A bit more. That's it.
22 The previous sentence was mine: "Then we'll
23 make pictures of them later."
24 Q. Please play the tape further. This is page
25 6. Page 6, paragraph 2. Play the tape.
1 A. Stop. "Slow on. Keep it a bit." That was
2 Mirko Dragisic.
3 Stop. Rade Leskovac: "Let's get into the
4 car and go."
5 Q. Stop. This is page 6, the penultimate
6 paragraph in the English text. Go on.
7 A. Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "This is Boro's
8 house." Go on, go on.
9 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "It's there." Say
10 it. "Fuck him."
11 Let's go -- stop. Slavko Dokmanovic a bit
12 before that: "Well we are going to see a little."
13 That's okay.
14 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "We are going to
15 see a little" -- no, Jova Cvetkovic. "Well we are
16 going to see a little." One, two, three, four, fourth
18 Slavko Dokmanovic and Rade Leskovac after
19 him: "No, no, no. That is Paunovic's. That belongs
20 to a Serb, a very rich man from before the war."
21 Q. Who said that?
22 A. Slavko and Rade Leskovac together.
23 "No, no. A family church." Slavko
25 Q. Go on.
1 A. Stop. "Oh, a family church." Jova
3 Please, please. "No, no. A family church."
4 Can we continue from that point?
5 No, could you rewind it a bit more than
7 That's okay. Just let the tape play. Stop.
8 "These houses were Ustashe. Every last one of them
9 Ustashe. This one here is Pivanda's." Slavko
11 Slavko. After Slavko, "Folks, I could not
12 imagine this in my dreams," that was Rade Leskovac. Go
14 Slavko Dokmanovic's voice saying -- it's not
15 in the transcript, but it says: "It was built without
16 a permit."
17 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "This man is doing
18 his best to try to make this functional, look at it!"
19 Stop. "Look!" And then a cuss word. That
20 was Zoran Jevtovic.
21 Stop. Rade Leskovac.
22 Q. Saying what?
23 A. "People...!!!"
24 Q. Go on.
25 A. Stop. "People, is that possible?!" Rade
2 Stop. "Well, look! Horror and terror."
3 Cuss word. Jova Cvetkovic.
4 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "Not even Stalingrad
5 looked like this."
6 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic.
7 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "Unbelievable!
8 This is that Jovica's house. Lukic. They killed him."
9 Stop. "Look at this." Jova Cvetkovic. Go
11 Stop. Rade Leskovac: "God Almighty!"
12 Stop. "Look at little Zoki. My Zoki!"
13 Slavko Dokmanovic.
14 Stop. "This which the camera records ..."
15 Rade Leskovac.
16 Stop. Slavko: "And this, this is the
17 Serbian church. They burned it and they destroyed it.
18 Before it ..."
19 Stop. Mr. Rade Leskovac: "Fuck their
20 Ustashe mother a thousand times. Theirs and
22 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic saying: "Look!"
23 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "The world has
24 never seen anything like this."
25 Stop. The voice of Slavko Dokmanovic: "Not
1 even that ..." And then the voice of Rade Leskovac.
2 Stop. "Anhajn." Slavko.
3 Stop. "God Almighty" twice, Rade Leskovac.
4 Stop. "There's a corpse! There's a corpse!
5 Look, tape it!" That's Rade Leskovac.
6 And then beneath that, "Eyes were gouged out,
7 hey!" Rade Leskovac.
8 Stop. "There is another one, there." Mirko
10 Stop. "Their Ustashe mother!" et cetera,
11 Rade Leskovac.
12 Stop. "Come on, record this." That is the
13 voice of my driver, Dragan Ivezic.
14 Stop. "Guys, there are many corpses here."
15 Rade Leskovac.
16 Stop. Zoran Jevtovic: "I am coming, I just
17 want to record how destroyed the town is."
18 Stop. "Don't touch it. It smells!" Zoran
20 Stop. Slavko: "... one great sorrow, not
21 only over the town, but also over thousands of dead and
22 innocent people." Go on.
23 Q. Whose voice is this now?
24 A. "... that lived to see the same fate as 50
25 years ago, to be killed, slaughtered for no reason ...
1 corpses." That's Slavko's voice.
2 Q. That's Slavko, the entire paragraph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Go on.
5 A. Stop. "The others will be left with memories
6 only." That is Slavko. And before that, all of that
7 was Slavko. So say the whole thing.
8 "It is all so horrible. It must be most
9 difficult for those who lost their dearest. The others
10 will be left with only memories."
11 Q. That is Slavko Dokmanovic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Go on.
14 A. Stop. Slavko: "People are recovering from
15 everything and we hope that Vukovar and its people ..."
16 Go on.
17 A. Stop, stop, stop. Slavko: " ... after 50
18 years and not to let anything like this happen again
19 anywhere ever." Go on.
20 Stop. This is the voice of Slavko
21 Dokmanovic: "It certainly will not be in Vukovar,
22 because from this day to eternity Vukovar will be
23 Serbian." Go on.
24 Stop. Zoran Jevtovic: "And this is shooting
25 that is going on over there? Pockets?"
1 Stop, stop. "Oh, fuck, what do these ..."
3 Stop. "This is the first time I see a man
4 with his throat cut." Rade Leskovac.
5 Stop. "Those are theirs. That army doesn't
6 slaughter like that." Jova Cvetkovic.
7 Stop, stop, stop. Could you just rewind it a
8 little bit, if possible? More.
9 Stop, stop. "And who knows who it is now?"
10 Slavko Dokmanovic.
11 Stop, stop. Rade Leskovac: "What's that,
13 Stop. "Yes, our guys are ..." Jova
15 Stop, stop. "Each settlement is like this."
17 Rewind the tape, please. The text isn't
18 okay. Now.
19 Stop. Just a bit more. Just rewind it a bit
20 more, please? Now.
21 Stop. "What's that, theirs?" That's Rade
22 Leskovac. And then ... now listen.
23 "Is she alive?" That is Rade Leskovac.
24 Q. Once again, please, before Rade Leskovac, who
25 is speaking before Rade Leskovac?
1 A. Could you put up the volume, please?
2 Stop. This is the voice of Slavko
3 Dokmanovic: "Get the dredge immediately and load."
4 Q. Go on.
5 A. Stop. This is Zoran Jevtovic: "All of this
6 has to be torn down."
7 Stop, stop, stop. "Torn down? OK, that does
8 not necessarily mean ..." Slavko Dokmanovic.
9 Q. That is page 10 of the transcript; you know
11 A. Stop. This is the voice of Slavko
12 Dokmanovic: "This is how it was, this man just fixed
13 it ..."
14 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: " ... and was
15 about to open the production and they destroyed it."
16 Stop. "It will be fixed." Slavko.
17 Stop. Slavko's voice: "Here, this is what
18 the police station ..."
19 Stop. "Here, this is what the police station
20 in Dalj was like." Slavko Dokmanovic.
21 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "But these were
22 all Ustashe houses." Go on.
23 Stop, stop. "That is the International Red
24 Cross." Rade Leskovac. Go on.
25 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "They should not see
1 these thieves carrying the bags."
2 Stop, stop. Rade Leskovac: "Well, let's go
3 and see."
4 Stop, stop. Leskovac: "Don't!... We don't
5 want anything." Slavko Dokmanovic: "We don't want
7 Q. Stop. Well, wait for the end of the
8 sentence. Go on.
9 A. Stop. "Don't!... We don't want anything.
10 We know what it looks like. What's the point?!"
11 Slavko Dokmanovic.
12 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "Look at these trees,
13 how every tree is hit," et cetera. Go on.
14 Stop. "And what is that there?" That is the
15 voice of Jova Cvetkovic.
16 Stop. That was Slavko Dokmanovic.
17 Stop. "Did they, my mother Jovo, what do you
18 think?" Slavko Dokmanovic. Go on. Play the tape
19 until the end.
20 Stop. "Well, how would they not know me?"
21 Slavko Dokmanovic. Go on.
22 Rade Leskovac at the end saying: "Ah, oh."
23 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just a quick
25 question: What was the last thing that he said
1 Mr. Leskovac said at the very end? We didn't catch
2 that. Perhaps you could rerun?
3 A. Rewind the tape, please. He's saying "Ah,
4 oh." You can't really translate that.
5 MR. FILA: Very substantive statement. That
6 will be all, Your Honour.
7 I suggest that the transcript be admitted as
8 evidence, Defence Exhibit -- I don't know the number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: D87, and the English
11 translation, D87A.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 MR. FILA: We have another witness, sir.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: I have just one question and
16 then I'm afraid we have to break at a quarter to
18 Mr. Lazarevic, at one point we saw you next
19 to Arkan. Did you have the chance of talking to him?
20 A. Perhaps a few sentences, "How are you? What
21 are you doing?" when he walked up to us when we were in
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Did you know why he was
24 there, the purpose of his presence there at VELEPROMET
25 in the yard?
1 A. I don't know because he showed up all of a
2 sudden. I saw him when he walked in. Neither why nor
3 what for.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: You didn't ask yourself why
5 he was there?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
8 no objection to the witness being released?
9 Mr. Lazarevic, thank you so much for coming
10 here to give evidence in court. You may now be
11 released. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 (Witness stood down)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: We will break now, and as I
15 suggested, we will start again at 3.00. I apologise
16 for this long break. And from 3.00 to 6.00. Thank
18 --- Luncheon break at 11.40 a.m.
1 --- Upon resuming at 3.00 p.m.
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (Witness entered court)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. May I ask
5 you to make the solemn declaration, please?
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
11 Mr. Fila?
12 WITNESS: MIRKO DRAGISIC
13 Examined by Mr. Fila
14 Q. Mr. Dragisic, did you have a conversation
15 with the investigator from the Fila Vasic office?
16 Would you please look at the statement and tell us
17 whether that is yours?
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D88
19 and the English translation D88A.
20 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Fila,
21 please. I am having some trouble with this machine.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, you may proceed.
23 MR. FILA:
24 Q. Is that your statement?
25 If there are no objections, I submit it as
1 evidence for the Defence.
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.
3 MR. FILA: D88.
4 Q. Mr. Dragisic, which university have you
5 finished, where and when?
6 A. I completed the university of chemistry (sic)
7 in Sarajevo.
8 Q. When?
9 A. '65, '66.
10 Q. Where were you employed later and where are
11 you employed now?
12 A. For the past 20 years, I've been working in
13 Kladovo; and before that, I was working in Bosnia.
14 Q. What are you doing in Kladovo?
15 A. I am the director of the musical and
16 elementary school.
17 Q. So you're a professor, a director of a
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Dragisic, you are under oath. You are
21 teaching our kids, I hope, honesty and humanity?
22 A. Yes. In any case, this is my holy or sacred
23 pedagogic vow.
24 Q. Everything that I'm asking you, please
25 respond in the same way that you would be respond when
1 you are bringing up kids.
2 A. Of course.
3 Q. Were you in the delegation of the
4 Municipality of Kladovo that went to visit the war area
5 on November 20th, '91?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why were you in that delegation?
8 A. There are two main reasons: Because I was
9 there to visit my former students whose director I was
10 and, at the same time, to visit the athletes who were
11 there as reservists because I was then the president of
12 the soccer club.
13 Q. The reservists, you mean the people who are
14 mobilised in the JNA; these were not volunteers.
15 A. No, no. These were people who were
17 Q. When did you arrive to Backa Palanka and why,
18 particularly, to Backa Palanka?
19 A. We got to Backa Palanka around 8.30, and the
20 reason was because the President of the Municipal
21 Assembly of Kladovo, Lazarevic, was there, and he was
22 also the President of the Municipal Assembly of Backa
23 Palanka, Novakovic, and he was also a partner in
24 business, so we got there because -- based on their
25 friendship and their acquaintance.
1 Q. Who did you arrive to Backa Palanka with, you
2 personally, I mean?
3 A. Personally, I came to Backa Palanka with a
4 driver. We were driven by driver Jevtovic. I was with
5 him in Belgrade. We picked up -- we called him Korea,
6 we called him Korea. I can't remember his last name.
7 Perhaps it was Tomasevic -- yes, Tomasevic. We call
8 him Korea, so that's the usual.
9 Q. So the three of you came together on the 20th
10 of November in the morning to Backa Palanka?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In Backa Palanka, did you see Slavko
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you see him anywhere in the courtroom?
18 A. I see him.
19 Q. Where?
20 A. In the back.
21 Q. Point to him.
22 How long have you known Slavko
24 A. I know him from Lazarevic's wedding because
25 he was at the wedding. Both of us were there at the
1 Lazarevic wedding. That's where we met one another.
2 MR. FILA: Please play the tape.
3 Q. Mr. Dragisic, you will see the tape from
4 Backa Palanka, so tell us when you will be able to see
6 I don't have any signal.
7 There is a problem, technical problem.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, we will have to
9 wait a few minutes, about ten minutes, to show the
11 I wonder whether you could ask questions
12 while we are waiting for the videotape to be repaired?
13 MR. FILA: Yes, of course. Okay.
14 Q. You know Slavko Dokmanovic, you said, from
15 the wedding.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you saw him -- then you saw him in Backa
18 Palanka; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For the second time in Backa Palanka?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the first time in Kladovo at the wedding
23 and the second time in Backa Palanka. How long did you
24 stay in Backa Palanka, approximately?
25 A. We stayed there approximately until twelve
2 Q. Then you left there. Where did you go?
3 A. We left towards the direction of Vukovar.
4 Q. Can you tell us who went and how?
5 A. It was like this: There were three cars.
6 There was a Mercedes that Leskovac left and there was a
7 Lada in which there was Dokmanovic, Cvetkovic, Jevtovic
8 and Lazarevic, and also there was a driver with me,
9 Ivaskovic and Tomasevic who we call "Korea" and myself.
10 Q. When you left Kladovo for Backa-- when you
11 left Kladovo for Palanka, did you plan to go to
12 Vukovar. When was the decision made?
13 A. The decision was made in Backa Palanka while
14 we talked about all kinds of things, about the events
15 that were happening in the environs, the circumstances,
16 the situation, and I was told that Vukovar has been
17 pretty destroyed, it's been liberated, and that even it
18 can be seen if we wanted to, of course we wanted to, so
19 that's where we went for these very reasons that I've
21 Q. Just one moment. Would you please repeat
22 again who was in the car that you were in from when you
23 were leaving from Backa Palanka in the car that you
24 were in, who else was in that car?
25 A. The car, Tomasevic, myself, and, of course,
1 Ivezic, yes, that's the driver, Ivezic.
2 Q. When you left Backa Palanka, then at one
3 point you arrive in Vukovar?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After a certain period?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Where did you get to when you entered
8 Vukovar? Where did you stop off at?
9 A. We stopped off at a business. As far as I
10 remember, it was at the entrance to Vukovar, it was a
11 business organisation on the entrance to Vukovar, it
12 was on the left side, I think.
13 Q. Is that perhaps called VELEPROMET?
14 A. Yes, it's called VELEPROMET. Later I found
15 out that it was called VELEPROMET.
16 Q. When you got to VELEPROMET, did you all get
17 there at the same time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. With how many vehicles?
20 A. Three -- no, sorry, we arrived in Vukovar
21 with two vehicles because in the meantime, there was a
22 breakdown of the Mercedes so that he moved to the Lada.
23 Q. Who do you mean by "he"?
24 A. Leskovac. He moved to the Lada so that we
25 arrived in Vukovar in two vehicles.
1 Q. So then you arrived in VELEPROMET and you
2 were in the yard of VELEPROMET.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you please tell us where you were
5 standing in the yard in VELEPROMET? We will see this
6 later in the tape.
7 A. Mostly I stood in front of the building
8 itself, close to the entrance, close to the guard
9 house. I was curious because I'm a pedagogue, an
10 educator and a chemist as well, I was looking at the
11 world, I was watching the situation, so most of the
12 time I spent at the entrance to the gate next to the
13 guard house.
14 Q. Thank you. So can we play the tape now? I
15 hear that it's been fixed.
16 MR. FILA: The tape from Backa Palanka).
17 (Videotape played)
18 MR. FILA:
19 Q. When you see yourself, please indicate that.
20 You have the tape?
21 A. No, I don't have the tape.
22 MR. FILA: He is not switched on properly.
23 Please return the tape to the beginning.
24 Q. Okay. From there. Can you see the tape
25 now? Run the tape. Yes?
1 A. This is me. Stop.
2 Q. Would you be so kind and to look at these
3 pictures and to tell me whether it is you on these
5 A. Yes, that's me -- oh, I'm looking at the
6 video monitor.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D89.
8 A. Yes. That is me.
9 MR. FILA: Play the tape, please.
10 Q. Once again, when you see yourself, stop us.
11 Please run the tape.
12 A. This is me again.
13 Q. Who is this?
14 A. That is Korea and this is the driver who was
15 driving us.
16 This is me.
17 Q. Would you please look at these photographs to
18 see if you are depicted on them?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D90.
20 A. Yes. That is me.
21 MR. FILA: Would you please play the tape
22 from the moment they enter VELEPROMET?
23 Q. When you see yourself, if you see yourself,
24 please point to where you are. Is that VELEPROMET?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In Vukovar?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Stop.
4 A. I saw myself a little earlier.
5 Q. Okay. You can continue.
6 Would you look at this photograph and tell us
7 whether that is you? Move the tape a little forward to
8 14.29. That's good. Is that you on the photograph?
9 Would you look at the photograph first and then say?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D91.
11 A. Yes, that's me.
12 MR. FILA: Run the tape, please.
13 Stop. Play it back -- rewind a little bit,
15 Would you please ...
16 Q. Would you please tell us whether you are on
17 that photo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you wait until everybody gets the
21 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D92.
22 A. Yes, that is me.
23 MR. FILA: Would you rewind the tape to 15.05
24 where the witness was standing so that he can identify
1 Q. Where are you?
2 A. I'm at the entrance and exit gate by the
3 guard house.
4 Q. Of VELEPROMET?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What were you doing at the gate?
7 A. I was watching. I was watching everything
8 that was happening. There was a lot of people. People
9 were going in and out. That's what I was looking at
10 from professional curiosity.
11 Q. So that's the gate on the right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did Slavko Dokmanovic pass that way? Did you
14 see him?
15 A. Yes, absolutely.
16 Q. So can we conclude that he didn't pass?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where do you go from VELEPROMET?
19 A. From VELEPROMET we go towards the centre of
21 Q. How did you go? Which vehicle? Who is in
22 which vehicle and so forth?
23 A. Same composition that we arrived in. In the
24 front is the Lada with Dokmanovic, Lazarevic,
25 Cvetkovic, Jevtovic, and in the other car, Tomasevic,
1 Ivezic, the driver, and myself.
2 Q. Where was Leskovac?
3 A. Leskovac was with them.
4 Q. In the Lada Niva?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Where are you going?
7 A. We're going towards the centre of Vukovar.
8 Q. Why are you only leaving just then? Were you
9 waiting for somebody?
10 A. Yes, we were waiting for Dokmanovic. He had
11 some obligations there so we waited until he finished
12 with those obligations and then he joined us and went
13 with us.
14 Q. Where did he have those obligations
16 A. Physically in the office, on the premises
17 which were very close to the gate.
18 Q. Is there only one entrance door to there?
19 A. Yes. It's a ground floor, one-storey
20 building with one entrance.
21 Q. So you waited for him in order to go towards
22 the centre of town?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Then you go to the centre of the town?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Did you stay when you came to the centre of
2 the town, did you leave the car?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you recognise your voice?
5 A. Yes, of course. Why not?
6 MR. FILA: Would you please play the tape so
7 we can hear his voice?
8 (Videotape played)
9 Rewind the tape, please.
10 Q. Is that you?
11 A. A bit more. Yes, I can recognise myself
12 there, yes.
13 Q. Then ...
14 A. Stop, stop. That's me. That's me, yes.
15 Q. All right. Go on. But did you manage to
16 hear your voice?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. All right. But you recognised your face?
19 A. Oh, absolutely. That's me.
20 Q. Now you've come to the centre of town.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you stayed there for a certain period of
23 time and then you set off for some other place out of
24 the centre of town?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where did you go?
2 A. We started moving in the direction of Kladovo
3 where we came from.
4 Q. In the direction of Kladovo. That's far
5 away, you know. Before that, you went in another
6 direction, didn't you?
7 A. Oh, yes, yes. The same place that we came
8 from, Backa Palanka, the direction of Backa Palanka,
9 but we stopped at a house where Cvetkovic was staying,
10 we all stopped there, the same group of people, the
11 same way. We all wanted to have a glass of homemade
12 brandy and that was it.
13 Q. When you were leaving the centre of
14 Vukovar --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- before you reached Sidski Banovci where
17 Cvetkovic was, did you stop somewhere in the meantime
18 and for how long?
19 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, two,
20 because we encountered a column of those buses and
21 vehicles with civilians. There were some problems
22 there because we tried to overtake them and they
23 stopped them and then we were stopped again by the
24 army. At the same time, they had some kind of regime
25 of movement of their own. We reacted a bit to that,
1 but they were a bit more energetic, they even pointed
2 their arms at us saying that we would have to observe
3 certain standards, certain rules. We got out there, we
4 all smoked a cigarette -- we all smoked cigarettes
5 respectively, then Cvetkovic got out and the whole
6 thing was pacified --
7 Q. Do you know what the name of this place was?
8 A. No, it was the first time I was there ever.
9 I have no idea.
10 Q. Let me ask you something else. When you set
11 out from Vukovar, when you start the first time and
12 then the second time and then later, you arrived at the
13 town where Jovan Cvetkovic was staying, did you make
14 any detours from that road?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. Were you driving behind the Lada Niva all the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The one in which Dokmanovic, Jovan, and these
20 other people were?
21 A. Yes, yes, yes.
22 Q. And that remained identical until you arrived
23 in Banovci?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This Lada Niva, did it manage to turn
1 somewhere else to get out of your sight?
2 A. No, no, no, no. They were in front of us all
3 the time.
4 Q. Would you see if they turned somewhere else?
5 A. Oh, definitely, yes.
6 Q. So you went wherever they went?
7 A. Yes, we went wherever they went.
8 Q. So it was eight of you, if I'm not mistaken,
9 and together you arrived in Sidski Banovci?
10 A. Yes, exactly, some kind of village, I don't
11 know. Probably Sidski Banovci.
12 Q. Where Jovan Cvetkovic was?
13 A. That's right, where Jovan Cvetkovic was.
14 Q. Can you say approximately what time it was
15 when you stopped for the second time when they were
16 pointing a rifle at you and ...
17 A. This was at dusk. The sun was setting, it
18 was getting dark. I think it was about 5.00 p.m., it
19 was almost dark because it was even difficult to
20 recognise people's faces. You could only discern
22 Q. At that point, when you got out of the car,
23 when the rifle was pointed at you, did you see Slavko
25 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes.
1 Q. Including Slavko Dokmanovic?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes. We were all there together,
3 the entire group, we were all there.
4 Q. Okay. And then you came to this place where
5 Cvetkovic was staying?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What time and was that the last place where
8 you saw Slavko Dokmanovic? At what time was that?
9 A. I don't know what time it was. I know that
10 it was almost dark, it was dusk at any rate, and then
11 we stayed there with Cvetkovic, everybody had a drink,
12 whatever was available, we sat there, we talked for a
13 while, and at the same time that is when we parted with
15 Q. The videotape that I play to you now, do you
16 have a copy?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who gave it to you and when?
19 A. Lazarevic gave it to me. I can't remember
20 when he gave it to me.
21 Q. What year?
22 A. '91, '91, but I don't know the exact time
23 because there was no reason for me to remember the
24 exact time because I got it as a souvenir.
25 Q. And you have this tape until the present day?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If the court required that tape, you could
3 give it to them?
4 A. Yes, I have it as a souvenir, as a valuable
6 Q. And you could give it to them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And now I want to complete this once again.
9 I told you that you have to speak the truth because of
10 your oath and also I mentioned that professionally you
11 were a teacher, that you were an educator who teaches
12 children. So this is your -- can you swear saying that
13 you saw Slavko Dokmanovic before your eyes when you
14 left Vukovar and until you reached Sidski Banovci?
15 A. That's right.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone was
17 not on for the last comments.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, did you finish?
19 MR. FILA: I have completed. Thank you, Your
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Williamson.
23 Q. Mr. Dragisic, whose idea was it to go to
24 Eastern Slavonia from Kladovo on the 20th of November?
25 A. The President of the Municipal Assembly,
2 Q. And did he approach you and ask you if you
3 wanted to accompany him, or how did it come about that
4 you joined the group?
5 A. He asked me.
6 Q. Where were these people that you referred to
7 as your former students and athletes, where were they
8 serving in Eastern Slavonia; do you know?
9 A. No, I didn't know their locations, these
10 villages in the immediate vicinity are not that nearby.
11 Q. Now, you indicated that when you were in
12 Backa Palanka the decision was taken to go to Vukovar;
13 is that correct?
14 A. No, we agreed -- no, it wasn't a decision
15 that was reached, we simply accommodated our views
16 through a free discussion. This was a voluntary
17 agreement on the part of all of us. It wasn't any kind
18 of decision that was being passed, I mean, for some
19 special reason.
20 Q. I'm not trying to indicate that someone
21 ordered you to go there. I'm saying that among all of
22 you, you discussed this and you reached a decision --
23 A. Yes, yes, yes.
24 Q. -- to go to Vukovar?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If your purpose had originally been to go and
2 visit students and athletes, why did you make the
3 change and decide to go to Vukovar instead?
4 A. Because I thought that I would see my
5 students, pupils, athletes, the next day, but I thought
6 that this was a unique opportunity to see a town that
7 was devastated. I was really interested in seeing
8 this. So this was the motive that prevailed since I
9 had been given this opportunity.
10 Q. And what was the route that your group took
11 from Backa Palanka to Vukovar?
12 A. That is the road between Backa Palanka and
14 Q. I know you're not from the Vukovar area and
15 you have indicated that you weren't familiar with
16 particular names of towns and villages. Do you recall
17 any of the towns and villages that you passed through
18 on the way there?
19 A. No, no, no. It was the first time I was
20 travelling in those parts.
21 Q. Was it the same route going there as the
22 route that you returned on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you've said that there were three cars
25 that started out as you left from Backa Palanka to go
1 to Vukovar. What was the order of the cars? Who was
2 first, who was second, who was third leaving from Backa
4 A. As far as I can remember, first there was the
5 Mercedes, then the Lada, and then our car -- rather,
6 the car that I was in.
7 Q. And you said that Mr. Leskovac's car had a
8 flat tyre somewhere along the route; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you remember where this was?
11 A. No. I remember that a house was there,
12 perhaps it was the beginning of some settlement, but
13 there were some houses, as far as I can recall.
14 Q. Was it in the same place where Mr. Cvetkovic
15 was staying, in Sidski Banovci?
16 A. No. I can't remember.
17 Q. And when his car broke down, did he just
18 immediately get into the car, in the Lada, and you
19 continued on your way, or were all of you delayed for
20 some time because of his breakdown?
21 A. Very briefly, we just re-packed all of this,
22 Leskovac went and joined them and we continued.
23 Q. So it didn't amount to much of a delay then?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, this was your first time ever to be in
1 Vukovar, you said?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you recall about what time it was when
4 you arrived at VELEPROMET?
5 A. Around noon or perhaps around 1.00, sometime
6 after 1.00, 1300 hours and a few minutes.
7 Q. What happened after you arrived? What did
8 you do, if you can just describe for us what happened
9 concerning you after your arrival until the time that
10 you left?
11 A. We didn't do anything. We were just
13 Q. And you were just talking to people that were
14 in the yard?
15 A. To some of them, yes.
16 Q. Now, earlier the Defence showed you a
17 photograph which was taken at 14.29 and was marked as
18 Exhibit D91. If this could be shown to the witness
19 again, please?
20 A. Right. All right.
21 Q. And in this photograph, you are standing next
22 to Arkan, are you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you able to ascertain what his purpose
25 was for being there on the 20th of November?
1 A. No.
2 Q. As a director of an elementary school, it
3 didn't concern you in any way to pose for photographs
4 with Arkan?
5 A. No.
6 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. I don't
7 understand in what context is this Arkan being
8 mentioned? Does the Prosecutor have some objections
9 against him? Has this person been indicted? I don't
10 know why people wouldn't want to have their pictures taken
11 with him? Has he been indicted? Why doesn't the
12 Prosecutor tell us. I really have no idea about your
13 sealed indictments, but until he is indicted in public,
14 you cannot qualify a certain person as a person with
15 whom one should not keep company. Sorry.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson, could you
17 specify the sense of your question.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: That was my follow-up
19 question, Your Honour.
20 Q. But even in 1991, Mr. Arkan had somewhat of a
21 notorious reputation as a criminal, did he not?
22 Perhaps not as a war criminal but as one with a
23 criminal past in Yugoslavia?
24 A. I know Arkan as a sports fan of the Svezda
25 club, and that's why it was a pleasure for me to have a
1 picture taken with him because he is a major Svezda fan
2 and I am a sportsman myself. I wasn't interested in
3 anything else and I really didn't know about it.
4 Q. You indicated that there was this meeting
5 that was taking place at VELEPROMET that all of these
6 people went into the building. Were you aware of what
7 this meeting was about that was inside?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And after the conclusion of the meeting when
10 Mr. Dokmanovic came out, there was no discussion as to
11 what had taken place inside?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How did it come about that your group
14 eventually left from VELEPROMET?
15 A. Because we wanted to see the centre, the
16 centre of town.
17 Q. And who suggested that you all go to the
19 A. We wanted to.
20 Q. So again this was just a joint decision made
21 among everyone talking among yourselves?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And who went to the town centre? Who was
24 with you when you were there?
25 A. The same group that came in there.
1 Q. And when you left from the centre, where did
2 you go?
3 A. Ah, you mean when we left the centre. Sorry,
4 sorry. I didn't understand your question. When we
5 left what?
6 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. This was a follow-up
7 question beyond that. I understood that you were in
8 the centre with the same group. I'm now asking when
9 you left the centre, where did you go?
10 A. We set out in the direction of Backa
11 Palanka -- or, rather, further on, to Kladovo.
12 Q. And did you return on the same route that you
13 had come in by?
14 A. Same.
15 Q. Now, in the statement that you gave and which
16 has been entered as Defence Exhibit 88, you indicate
17 that you left -- after watching the film, you said the
18 film shows us leaving Vukovar at 15.30 by the same road
19 by which we came. Is that your recollection?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. If we could show the tape from 15.30 on, if
22 you can just look at it briefly with us?
23 And as you're looking at the tape, if you
24 could indicate to us the point at which you're leaving
1 (Videotape played)
2 A. We left to the --
3 Q. I'm sorry. I did not receive a translation.
4 Could you repeat that, please, Mr. Dragisic?
5 A. According to the recording, to the best of my
6 recollection, these were the last -- the last scenes
7 when we were leaving Vukovar and moving towards Backa
9 Q. And is that -- you're saying that this part,
10 if we can just play it back then perhaps from 15.36 on,
11 and if you can indicate to us where you believe you're
12 leaving Vukovar on that tape?
13 A. I don't know exactly. I really don't know
14 exactly. To the best of my recollection, you know,
15 because I don't know the details, and I didn't really
16 pay much attention to this because I didn't have any
17 reason to pay attention to that, so I don't really know
18 whether it was ten minutes more or five minutes more or
19 afterwards, but this is more or less the kind of
20 information that I can give, that that is when we're
21 leaving town.
22 Q. I'm not trying in any way to trip you up,
23 Mr. Dragisic, I'm just trying to clarify at what point
24 you're referring to in your statement where it shows
25 you leaving, and I understand that these times are
1 approximate. I'm not in any way trying to imply this
2 has to be the exact time. I'm just asking at what
3 point on this tape is it your belief that you left from
5 A. I can't say that because I don't remember.
6 Sometime ... I don't know. Forty past 15 or around
7 1600 hours, I really don't know.
8 Q. These buses we have just seen in this very
9 last clip which is indicated at 1542, was that in
11 A. I think that was out of Vukovar, as far as I
12 can remember. Yes, yes, it was out of Vukovar at any
13 rate, yes.
14 Q. We see houses there. Is it in another
15 village or where was it? Again without -- I know you
16 can't say the name of a particular place.
17 A. As long as there were houses, there must have
18 been -- it must have been a village.
19 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. You
20 cannot see houses anywhere. Houses is plural. On this
21 recording, we see one house, and that is the singular
22 here and anywhere else in the world. So one can see
23 one house, the roof of one house, and that is the right
24 way of phrasing this question.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Williamson,
1 could you please be so kind as to rephrase your
3 MR. WILLIAMSON:
4 Q. Where is this located, to the best of your
5 knowledge? Is it in a village? Is it in between
6 villages? Is it in between towns? Is it a single
7 house? Were there other houses around?
8 A. I don't know, and I cannot give an accurate,
9 concrete answer. I do not remember.
10 Q. Now, I believe you've testified during
11 examination-in-chief that from the time you left the
12 centre of Vukovar until you stopped for the buses, that
13 you and the group of cars made no turns, no stops, no
14 changes in direction at all; is that correct?
15 A. We didn't change direction, but we did stop
16 by chance and because of the need, because we were
18 Q. Where did you stop between the centre of town
19 and these buses, or did I misunderstand you? Was this
20 the first stop, was for the buses, or was there another
21 stop in between?
22 A. Yes, because of the buses.
23 Q. So again, just to be absolutely clear, from
24 the time you left the centre of Vukovar until you
25 stopped for the buses, there were no other stops,
1 turns, changes in direction; correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How long were you all stopped for the buses?
4 A. Not long. Very briefly.
5 Q. Did you get out of the car there?
6 A. We didn't all. Some came out, but really, we
7 didn't -- we were there next to one another and we
8 waited and then very shortly after that, we left. We
9 continued on further.
10 Q. So some of the people got out, but you
11 yourself did not; is that correct?
12 A. I don't remember. We were car-to-car, next
13 car -- some people maybe came out. We were
14 all together and we maybe commented on it and then
15 later we went on our way.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
19 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.
20 Q. When you respond to questions whether you
21 went out of the car here or there, do you remember
22 today, after seven years from that event?
23 A. Well, of course in any case, I can remember,
24 some details I remember based on what I have just seen,
25 but I probably wouldn't remember a lot.
1 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. That is
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
4 no objection to the witness being released?
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dragisic, thank you so
7 much for giving evidence in court. You may be released
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 (Witness stood down)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Petrovic, may I ask you
12 who is coming next?
13 MR. PETROVIC: The next witness is called
14 Boris Ivaskovic.
15 (Witness entered court)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Ivaskovic, may I ask you
17 to make the solemn declaration, please, read out the
18 solemn declaration?
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 WITNESS: BORIS IVASKOVIC
1 Examined by Mr. Petrovic
2 Q. Mr. Ivaskovic, on December 8th, '97, did you
3 give a statement to the investigator in the office of
4 Fila to investigator Vasic? Would you please look at
5 this statement, tell us whether that is your statement
6 and whether that is your signature?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Statement is marked D93 and
8 the English translation D93A.
9 MR. PETROVIC:
10 Q. The English translation, would you look at
11 the second part, please, that's where the Serbian
12 language statement is.
13 A. Yes. That is the statement.
14 Q. That's your statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. PETROVIC: Unless there are objections, I
17 move that this be admitted into evidence as D93.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection,
19 Mr. Williamson?
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Sorry, Your Honour, no
22 MR. PETROVIC:
23 Q. Mr. Ivaskovic, did you finish the business
24 school in Belgrade as well as the faculty of philosophy
25 in Belgrade?
1 A. Yes. The faculty of theology and the
2 business school.
3 Q. Where were you employed during your career?
4 A. For five years, I worked as a sales
5 representative in a tourist organisation of Djerdap.
6 After that I worked in radio until the present time.
7 Q. On November 20th, '91, were you a member of
8 the delegation of the assembly of Kladovo, municipality
9 of Kladovo, which visited the war zone?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On November 20th, '91, did you see Slavko
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please play the
15 tape, D2, Defence evidence, from the beginning,
17 Q. Would you please look at the tape and
18 indicate when you see yourself?
19 A. Yes. This is me.
20 MR. PETROVIC: The usher please show this
21 photograph to the witness so that he can tell us
22 whether he is depicted in that photograph?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D94.
24 A. Yes, this is me on the photograph and driver
25 Rade Ivezic.
1 Q. Would you please run the tape? When you see
2 Slavko Dokmanovic, would you please indicate that for
4 (Videotape played)
5 Q. When you notice Dokmanovic, please indicate
6 that to us.
7 A. This is Mr. Dokmanovic.
8 Q. How long have you known Mr. Dokmanovic?
9 A. I've known -- I saw him earlier when the
10 white fleet sailed between Kladovo, Belgrade, and
11 Vukovar. I know that he lived in Vukovar. Later, I
12 found out that he was the President of the Municipality
13 of Vukovar.
14 MR. PETROVIC: Run the tape, please. Run the
15 tape, please.
16 (Videotape played)
17 Q. When you see yourself again, please indicate
18 that to us.
19 A. This is me on the tape.
20 MR. PETROVIC: At this time, I would like the
21 usher to show the photograph to the witness.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked D95.
23 A. Yes, that's me on the photograph.
24 MR. PETROVIC:
25 Q. Would you please look at another document?
1 Would you please show this to the witness?
2 And to tell us what this document is.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D96.
4 MR. PETROVIC:
5 Q. Would you please tell us what this is about?
6 A. These are travel orders that I received to
7 travel to visit the reservists as a journalist. This
8 is a usual thing, to get a travel order.
9 MR. PETROVIC: Would you, please, if there
10 are no objections from the Prosecution, I would like
11 the evidence -- the exhibits from 94 to 96 be accepted
12 into the evidence.
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, Your Honour.
14 MR. PETROVIC:
15 Q. Before I move to the next question, could you
16 please tell us what's the meaning of a travel order,
17 when is it issued and so on?
18 A. A travel order means that somebody is being
19 sent on an official trip, he has a business task which
20 is written in the travel orders, and then also to make
21 a report from the war zone. This is a usual thing and
22 it's usually issued a few days before the trip.
23 Q. On that day, you moved -- you went from
24 Kladovo to Backa Palanka. Why?
25 A. The agreement was to meet with our team that
1 went to the war zone in Backa Palanka.
2 Q. How long were you in Backa Palanka?
3 A. The group that I was with was in Backa
4 Palanka until 12.00.
5 Q. Where did you go from Palanka?
6 A. From Palanka, we went towards Bogojevo Most
7 and then we crossed into Dalj.
8 Q. When was the last time on that day that you
9 saw Slavko Dokmanovic?
10 A. Somewhere around twelve o'clock.
11 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no more
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Just a few questions, Your
16 Cross-examined by.
17 Q. Again, Mr. Ivaskovic, what was your reason
18 going to the Vukovar region on the 20th of November,
20 A. In my travel orders, it states that I went as
21 a journalist in order to report from that region
22 because we had our reservists from our area stationed
24 Q. And who had asked you to go there?
25 A. My newsroom because there were reservists
1 from our municipality, so the newsroom gave me a job as
2 a journalist, gave me a task, assignment.
3 Q. And who did you travel with from Kladovo to
4 Backa Palanka?
5 A. In the car that I was in, it was a green
6 Peugeot, there was driver Radoslav Matevic, Radisav
7 Simic, Viselav Maletic, and myself.
8 Q. Approximately what time did you leave Kladovo
9 and when did you arrive in Backa Palanka?
10 A. I only remember that we left in the early
11 morning hours. I can't exactly state what was our
12 departure time, but this was early morning hours. In
13 Backa Palanka, we got there a little before 9.00.
14 Q. And you've indicated that at around noon the
15 group split up and that you went across the Bogojevo
16 Bridge to Erdut and the other group went on to
17 Vukovar. Who made the decision as to who would go
19 A. We didn't go through over the Vukovar but
20 over the Bogojevo Bridge toward Erdut and Dalj, we went
21 to that region in order to visit, as I said earlier,
22 the reservists, and in order to distribute to them what
23 their families sent us. There were sweaters,
24 cigarettes, a little bit of food, things like that.
25 Q. I understand that you went to Erdut and in
1 that direction, but I believe you testified that the
2 other group, including Mr. Dokmanovic, went in another
3 direction, they went off to Vukovar; is that correct?
4 A. They left in a different direction. I didn't
5 know where they were going.
6 Q. Was there any discussion among the people as
7 to who would go to Erdut and who would go with
8 Mr. Dokmanovic's group in the direction of wherever
9 they went?
10 A. We were only told that we are going towards
11 Vukovar, and as a journalist, I recorded a few
12 interesting people for me.
13 MR. PETROVIC: Whether towards Vukovar, where
14 were you going? Maybe this was a slip of the tongue of
15 the witness. You said you went towards Vukovar.
16 A. No, we went towards Dalj and Erdut, Dalj and
18 MR. WILLIAMSON:
19 Q. And after you left from Backa Palanka, you
20 did not see Mr. Dokmanovic again at any point that day;
22 A. No, I didn't see him at all. We were in Dalj
23 and Trpinja. At Trpinja, we spent the night there, we
24 slept there, and the next day we came back. I didn't
25 see him any more.
1 Q. You did not see him in Trpinja that night?
2 A. No. No, I didn't see him.
3 Q. And did you receive a copy of the videotape
4 which has been shown in court previously marked as
5 Defence Exhibit 2, the one that you have viewed?
6 A. Yes, I watched that tape.
7 Q. And did you receive a copy of that tape in
9 A. No, I didn't get a copy of that videotape
10 because my colleague, Dr. Zoran Jevtovic, my director,
11 had a copy, so I didn't really need one. I saw it
12 once, so I didn't really need to have it.
13 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Jevtovic making copies
14 of the tape at that time and distributing them to some
15 of the people who had participated in the trip?
16 A. Yes. That was no secret. Anybody who got it
17 and who saw it could make themselves a copy. It was no
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no
20 further questions.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no
23 additional questions.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume the parties will not
25 object to the witness being released? Thank you, 1 Mr. Ivaskovic, for coming here. You may be released
3 And we will take a 20-minute break now.
4 --- Recess taken at 4.20 p.m.
5 --- Resumed at 4.45 p.m.
6 (The witness entered court)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please make the
8 solemn declaration?
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
13 seated. Mr. Petrovic?
14 WITNESS: DJORDJE MILIVOJEVIC
15 Examined by Mr. Petrovic
16 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, on 8th of December, '97, did
17 you give a statement to the investigator for the
18 Defence? Is that this statement? Would you please
19 look, if this is your signature on the statement?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Statement is marked D97,
21 English translation D97A.
22 MR. PETROVIC:
23 Q. Is that your statement? Would you please
24 look at the document, look on the back? That's the
25 English translation. Is that your signature underneath
1 the statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. PETROVIC: I move, unless there are
4 objections, that this be admitted as evidence for the
5 Defence, number 97, English translation 97A.
6 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.
7 MR. PETROVIC:
8 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, did you finish technical
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where were you employed?
12 A. On the Djerdap hydroelectric power station.
13 Q. You were a member of the delegation of the
14 Municipality of Kladovo which visited the war zone on
15 November 20th, '91?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you please show the witness the tape
18 and around 9.00, nine and eight minutes, and then in
19 order not to take up time, to move then to 10.39.
20 Okay. Just 9.00. It's okay.
21 When you see yourself, please indicate that
22 to us.
23 (Videotape played)
24 A. This is me.
25 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please show the
1 witness this photograph so that the witness can
2 identify it?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D98.
4 A. Yes, that is me.
5 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please play the tape
7 Q. And indicate when you see Slavko Dokmanovic
8 on the tape and, of course, when you see yourself.
9 A. This is me. This is Slavko.
10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You can stop the
12 When were you in Backa Palanka? On what day?
13 A. The 20th of November.
14 Q. Yes, on the 20th of November. Until when
15 were you in Backa Palanka?
16 A. Until 12.00. We went in the direction of
17 Erdut over the Bogojevo Bridge.
18 Q. At twelve o'clock, did you see Mr. Dokmanovic
19 for the last time?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no further
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi
25 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, you said just as your last
1 statement that you left Backa Palanka around midday on
2 20th November, 1991, in the direction of Erdut; is that
4 A. Yes. Towards -- in the direction of the
5 bridge near Bogojevo, towards Erdut. That's what I
7 Q. Who was with you?
8 A. I was in the vehicle with Dule Niculovic, the
9 driver, and Dimitrje Vuvucic (phoen).
10 Q. Was there another car besides the car you
11 were sitting in?
12 A. Yes. In that direction, yes, there was
13 another vehicle.
14 Q. Do you remember who were the passengers of
15 that vehicle?
16 A. I really couldn't say.
17 Q. Where did you spend the night that day?
18 A. The 20th? 20th?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. In Trpinja.
21 Q. Did you see Mr. Dokmanovic in Trpinja that
23 A. No.
24 Q. So it was the last time you saw
25 Mr. Dokmanovic when you left him in Backa Palanka; is 1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
6 MR. PETROVIC: No more. Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I think there is
8 no objection to the witness being released.
9 Thank you for coming here to give evidence in
10 court. You may be released.
11 (Witness stands down)
12 MR. PETROVIC: I would like to inform the
13 court and the Prosecution that for the next two
14 witnesses, we don't have written statements, but the
15 investigator of the Prosecution spoke with both of the
16 witnesses in Belgrade during the month of February.
17 That is why we brought them, for that reason.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So the first one
19 is Mr. Maletic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: Yes, Maletic is the next
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please stand and
24 make the solemn declaration?
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
4 WITNESS: VISELAV MALETIC
5 Examined by Mr. Petrovic
6 Q. Mr. Maletic, would you please tell us your
7 full name and last name and the name of your father?
8 A. I am Maletic Viselav, father Ratibor, from
10 Q. When were you born?
11 A. I was born on the 10th of April in 1945 in
13 Q. Did you finish law school in Belgrade?
14 A. Yes, I finished law school in 1970 in
16 Q. What about your work career?
17 A. 1971, I started in the Municipal Court in
18 Kladovo until '73 when, after passing the bar exam, I
19 was elected as a judge in the Municipal Court where I
20 was a judge until '87. Then, as I am also from '78 up
21 to the present time, the Public Prosecutor.
22 Q. Were you a member of the delegation of the
23 municipality which visited on November 20th, '91, that
25 A. Yes, I was a member of that delegation from
1 Kladovo which, on that day, left towards Dalj in order
2 to visit our reservists.
3 MR. PETROVIC: Since it's not in the record
4 that the witness is a Prosecutor in Kladovo -- it does
5 state that he's a Prosecutor but he is actually working
6 as a Prosecutor in Kladovo.
7 Q. So are you the Public Prosecutor in Kladovo?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On the 20th of November, when did you leave
10 from Kladovo, if you left from Kladovo?
11 A. We left from Kladovo early in the morning in
12 a passenger vehicle. There were four of us in the
13 vehicle besides the driver. There was Simic Radisav,
14 then myself, Rade Matovic was the driver, and the
15 journalists, I can't remember the names at this moment.
16 Q. When did you get to Backa Palanka?
17 A. We got to Backa Palanka around 8.00, 8.30 in
18 the morning.
19 MR. PETROVIC: Please play the tape for the
20 witness now.
21 Q. If you see yourself on the tape, would you
22 please indicate that to us?
23 (Videotape played)
24 A. Here.
25 Q. That's you at nine o'clock and eight minutes?
1 A. Yes, nine o'clock and eight minutes.
2 MR. PETROVIC: Please play the tape further.
3 Q. Next segment of the tape, point to yourself
4 and to Slavko Dokmanovic. Show us Slavko Dokmanovic
5 and yourself.
6 A. No, we haven't appeared yet.
7 Q. Stop the tape, please. Is that you in the
9 A. Yes, it's me on the photograph.
10 MR. PETROVIC: Please show the witness the
12 A. I am on the photograph.
13 Q. Take a look at the photograph and then please
14 say whether it's you on the photograph.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked D99.
16 A. Yes, I'm on that photograph.
17 MR. PETROVIC: I would like to have it
18 admitted into evidence as Defence Exhibit 99.
19 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.
20 MR. PETROVIC: Please continue playing the
22 Q. If you see Slavko Dokmanovic, please indicate
24 A. This is Slavko.
25 Q. Thank you. That will do as far as the tape
1 is concerned. Since when have you known Slavko
3 A. That is when I first met him. That is when I
4 first met him.
5 Q. I'm sorry. What were you saying?
6 A. That was the first time we met. We were
7 introduced there in the building of the municipal
9 Q. Until when were you in this room in the
10 Municipality of Backa Palanka?
11 A. We were in that room until around 12.00.
12 Q. And then where did you go?
13 A. As we got out, we went to -- I mean I -- I
14 took this vehicle and went with Simic towards Dalj and
15 the truck did too, and the other group went to Vukovar.
16 Q. When was the last time that you saw Slavko
17 Dokmanovic on that day?
18 A. Sometime after 12.00, when we set out for
19 Dalj. After that, we didn't see each other.
20 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi
24 Q. Mr. Maletic, could you please look back to
25 the picture we just were shown, D99, please? Can you
1 be shown that picture? You have it in front of you, I
3 Do you recognise, Mr. Maletic, the other
4 gentleman on that picture? Do you know this person?
5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand this
6 question. Are you talking about the photograph I have
7 in front of me?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I know this is Ljuba Tomic, Lieutenant
11 Q. And he's a member of the JNA?
12 A. I know him from Kladovo. We've known each
13 other since we were children. And that was the first
14 time we met. He was a member of the JNA.
15 Q. Can you tell us today what you were
16 discussing with him? You seem to be quite sort of deep
17 into a discussion showing -- maybe you had some papers
18 in front of the two of you. Can you tell us what you
19 were discussing with him?
20 A. As I mentioned to you, we have been friends
21 since childhood. We've known each other since then and
22 we hadn't seen each other for quite some time. So we
23 mostly discussed our families and general affairs;
24 nothing special, nothing specific. We didn't look at
25 any papers. I mean, not in any special way. We were
1 sitting at the table and we were probably looking at
2 some kind of pictures, photographs.
3 Q. Do you know what he was doing at that meeting
4 or in general in that area? Do you know his
6 A. We had an agreement to meet with our vehicles
7 in Backa Palanka so that we could get the right papers
8 and guides to take us further onto the front line. And
9 sometime after we arrived, Ljuba Tomic arrived.
10 Whether he was one of the people who provided these
11 papers for us and made the front line accessible to us,
12 I really don't know about that.
13 Q. You said you were provided with a guide who
14 would lead you through the area. Do you mean a guide
15 who would join you in your car? Was there such a
16 person who guided you around when you continued your
18 A. I do not remember. No one joined us in our
19 vehicle. It was all of us who were there originally
20 and then the truck went with us too. If there was
21 someone in the truck; that, I do not know. I think
22 that we were simply told what is the route that we were
23 supposed to take and where we were supposed to report
24 because after Dalj, somebody got in touch with us and
25 then we went on with the truck and these packages so
1 that we would distribute them. I mean these parcels.
2 Q. You said that you knew Mr. Tomic from
3 childhood. Do you know whether he came with you that
4 day or was he in that area prior to the day you met
5 with him?
6 A. I didn't understand the beginning of your
7 question. Please repeat it.
8 Q. You said earlier that you knew Mr. Tomic from
9 childhood; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he came from Kladovo as well; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The day we are talking about, 20th of
15 November, 1991, do you have the impression that
16 Mr. Tomic came from Kladovo like you, the same day, or
17 do you have the impression that he was there for quite
18 some time?
19 A. As far as I know, he was not with us that
20 day. He certainly didn't leave Kladovo that day
21 because we were the only ones who left Kladovo that day
22 in that vehicle and then there was the truck too and
23 the rest of the delegation joined us in Backa Palanka
25 Q. My question was whether Mr. Tomic arrived
1 with you basically, like you for one day, or are you
2 aware whether he was already there, maybe for a month
3 prior to meeting you incidentally, as it may be, during
4 that meeting?
5 A. I don't know how long he was there or whether
6 he was there.
7 Q. Where did he go, Mr. Tomic, after that
8 meeting; do you know?
9 A. I don't know that either, where he went. As
10 I said, we went towards Dalj.
11 Q. Mr. Tomic, is he a career officer or a
12 reservist; could you tell us more about his status
13 within the JNA?
14 A. He was an active duty officer, military
16 Q. Do you know which part of the army or the
17 armed forces Mr. Tomic was, infantry or artillery?
18 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know exactly
19 in which service he was.
20 Q. Can't you judge that from his uniform, maybe
21 his insignias?
22 A. On these uniforms that were worn, there are
23 no insignia or signs in terms of units, service,
24 et cetera. I mean, that he had then.
25 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
3 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic
4 Q. Could the witness please say whether the
5 person we are talking about, did he perhaps wear the
6 uniform of an air force officer?
7 A. No. A regular olive gray-green uniform, just
8 like all other soldiers. That is that uniform.
9 Q. Without any -- do you perhaps know what an
10 air force uniform looks like?
11 A. Oh, yes, I do. Certainly.
12 Q. Could you describe it to us in brief?
13 A. The air force wear blue uniforms and blue
15 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
18 no objection to the witness being released. Thank
19 you. You are released.
20 (Witness stands down)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume we are moving on to
22 our next witness.
23 MR. PETROVIC: Our next witness is
25 (The witness entered court)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niculovic, good
2 afternoon. Could you please read out the solemn
4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
8 WITNESS: DUSAN NICULOVIC
9 Examined by Mr. Petrovic
10 Q. Can the witness please tell us his full name
11 and surname and his father's name?
12 A. My name is Dusan Niculovic. My father's name
13 is Milutin.
14 Q. When were you born?
15 A. On the 25th of July, 1947.
16 Q. Where do you live today?
17 A. I live in Kladovo.
18 Q. Your address?
19 A. Timocka No. 8.
20 Q. Are you employed as a driver at the Djerdap 1
21 power station in Kladovo?
22 A. Yes. I've been working there for the past 30
24 Q. You're a driver?
25 A. Yes, I'm a driver.
1 Q. Did you drive the delegation of the
2 Municipality of Kladovo which went to Backa Palanka on
3 the 20th of November?
4 A. I drove a truck with Milivojevic and Rosic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: Could we please play the tape
6 for the witness, the beginning of the tape?
7 Q. When you see yourself, please tell us that
8 that's you.
9 Could we please have this photograph shown to
10 the witness and could he please indicate what is on the
12 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked
14 A. This is where I was sitting, over there in
15 that office in the municipal assembly with the other
17 MR. PETROVIC: I suggest that this be
18 admitted into evidence as Defence Exhibit number 100.
19 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 MR. PETROVIC:
22 Q. How long were you in Backa Palanka in the
23 office we just saw?
24 A. In that office, I think until about 12.00.
25 We went out around 12.00, and then we set out for Dalj
1 with a truck that was taking humanitarian aid there to
2 our reservists.
3 Q. Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic on that day?
4 A. Yes, I did see him. And until that, I never
5 knew him.
6 MR. PETROVIC: We can continue playing the
7 tape so that the witness could identify ...
8 (Videotape played)
9 Could we please speed up the tape, fast
10 forward until 10.00, approximately? Now could we play
11 the tape?
12 Q. When you see Mr. Dokmanovic, please tell us
14 A. Here he is, Mr. Dokmanovic.
15 Q. Do you see Mr. Dokmanovic here in this
16 courtroom today? Where is he?
17 A. Over there behind you.
18 Q. Thank you. When did you last see
19 Mr. Dokmanovic on that day?
20 A. At 12.00 when we were parting -- when we went
21 towards Dalj.
22 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi
1 Q. Just one question, Mr. Niculovic. Why do you
2 think Mr. Dokmanovic was attending that meeting on 20th
3 November, 1991?
4 A. It wasn't a meeting. He came there to see
5 us. It wasn't a meeting, you know, like -- you know,
6 as a driver, I was there. You know, it was more sort
7 of like a gathering, not a meeting, a proper meeting.
8 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
11 MR. PETROVIC: No, thank you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no
13 objection to the witness being released. Thank you.
14 You may be released.
15 (Witness stands down)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
17 MR. FILA: Your Honour, my idea was to bring
18 two more witnesses in, but there's a congress going on
19 in The Hague and there weren't any hotel rooms
20 available, so two people were sharing rooms
21 respectively, and it really didn't make any sense to
22 have three people per room. Therefore, we don't have
23 any further witnesses. There will be coming in on
24 Sunday three more of them -- three more on Monday -- on
25 Monday, three more, and then Slavko Dokmanovic is four,
1 and the expert is five. Those are the people you will
2 be seeing here and the video link, of course, on Monday
3 and Tuesday.
4 However, who does not come to the video link
5 and who does not arrive by Tuesday to the video link, I
6 shall not insist any longer. So the Defence will
7 finish by the end of next week in addition to what we
8 have we saw yesterday.
9 I have a further question, with your
10 permission? This evidence related to possible
11 sentencing, does that mean that an expert can be
12 brought in? Because according to the rules, you are
13 supposed to bear in mind the sentencing policy in
14 Yugoslavia at that period of time. So perhaps in that
15 stage, should I perhaps bring in such a person?
16 Because I do have this kind of intention, to bring in
17 an expert in this kind of penalty policy, as we used to
18 call it, of the SFRY. Would that be the proper time?
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, it will be quite
21 MR. FILA: In that case, I shall need two
22 days in June at the most. Really, you know, even God
23 needed seven days to create the world.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you. No,
25 you're right. So two days in June because we're
1 thinking that the Prosecutor will need two days for the
2 rebuttal witnesses and then one day for the closing
3 statements for both parties.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we can
5 certainly try to do that. At this point, since the
6 Defence case is not yet finished, it's a bit premature
7 for us to commit to exactly how many witnesses that we
8 might call. We would certainly do everything we could
9 to try to complete it in June. I think it's in
10 everyone's interests to accomplish that.
11 Just one other point in reference to this.
12 We certainly have no objection to Mr. Fila calling this
13 expert, but we would just ask that we receive a
14 statement from him in advance as to the nature of his
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Of course. I was going
17 to ask Mr. Fila also about the statement by the expert
18 witness Dr. Petrovic, Vera Petrovic. We have not yet
19 received a statement.
20 MR. FILA: The Registrar has promised me that
21 it will be finished by tomorrow, so you will receive it
22 tomorrow. But in the Serbian language, I have already
23 provided copies.
24 As far as evidence of the Defence is
25 concerned, I want to make this quite clear. All the
1 Defence evidence will be presented by the end of next
2 week. But what we are talking about now is something
3 completely different. I mean, the Prosecutor has no
4 right of rebuttal as far as this particular witness is
5 concerned. This is an expert witness on penalties and
6 sentencing in Yugoslavia. So by the end of next week,
7 the Prosecutor will know exactly what the Defence has
8 done and what the Defence intends to present.
9 Am I clear on this? Do we understand each
10 other on this? I need two days in June for the family
11 of Mr. Dokmanovic, perhaps a friend or two, and that
12 expert witness who is going to tell us about this
13 penalty policy, sentencing policy. That's all.
14 But as far as the evidence provided by the
15 Defence is concerned, I told you that that would be
16 completed by the end of next week, so the Prosecutor
17 will know exactly what they need by then.
18 And, of course, I am going to give
19 Mr. Williamson the statement of that expert when I find
20 this particular expert, because I still haven't found
21 an expert for this, but when I find an expert, of
22 course I'm going to provide the statement of that
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might just
25 very briefly? I'm not sure that we would agree that we
1 have no right of rebuttal on this issue of sentence. I
2 think that it's -- we have just been informed about
3 this issue, that the court expected evidence of this to
4 be presented during the course of the trial itself; and
5 therefore, if evidence is presented by the Defence, I
6 think we would have the right to rebut that.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Of course. Yes. There
8 will be evidence from both parties. Yes. Of course.
9 On the question of sentencing.
10 All right. So we are grateful to Mr. Fila
11 for his promise that he will submit both to the
12 Prosecutor and to the court the statement of the
13 witness expert on the sentencing in the Former
14 Yugoslavia, the judicial practice, which will be of
15 great interest, in any case, for the court, whatever
16 the final decision of the court.
17 I wonder whether I could also ask Mr. Fila
18 about the witness statements of witnesses Miodrag
19 Pavlovic and Radoslav Zlatic, whether we are going to
20 get them.
21 MR. FILA: I have also handed them in, and I
22 think that we are going to get them next Tuesday.
23 You see, may I remind you of what I said
24 about the Yugoslav army. I had such trouble in
25 convincing at least one person to come in, and I must
1 say that you have a message from the army of Yugoslavia
2 that whatever the court wishes to have, according to
3 the rules, if you need a document, that they're going
4 to give it to you. But they won't give it to me
5 because it says "Confidential." But if the court asks
6 for it, then the head of the legal service of the JNA,
7 Colonel Ristic, he said that he will give you whatever
8 you ask for, but he won't give me anything.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you for this
10 information, which is most gratifying, but we were
11 never told that the authorities in Belgrade, the
12 military authorities in Belgrade, would give us
13 whatever we would ask for.
14 Of course, if you're interested in any
15 document, you could put in a request to us and we would
16 be most happy to send this as a request from the court
17 to Belgrade.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very
19 quickly. I don't know if Mr. Fila is aware of this.
20 We yesterday received a statement of Mr. Pavlovic, so I
21 believe the translation of that statement is
22 completed. The other one we have not yet received, so
23 I suppose it's still in the process of being
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, turning to this
1 question of military documents, of military
2 information --
3 MR. FILA: I sent Pavlovic's statement in
4 Serbian. You got a copy in English? When did you
5 manage to get that? I mean, it is following --
6 Mr. Pavlovic is a colonel of the JNA, and in his
7 statement -- I mean, when he testifies before the
8 Honourable Court, he is going to invoke certain
9 documents, and I wanted him to bring in these documents
10 to show them to you. And you know that according to
11 our rules, you cannot just talk; you have to show
12 documents in order to corroborate this. Well, he won't
13 be able to get these documents otherwise. Only if you
14 ask them will you be able to get them. That's it.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. That's why I'm
16 asking you whether you could submit to the court a
17 request for those documents which you are interested
18 in, and tomorrow we can send a formal request to the
19 army, the relevant authorities in Belgrade, so that
20 they can provide us with those documents as soon as
21 possible. Ideally, it would be --
22 MR. FILA: It is better for him to say what
23 are the documents when he testifies on Wednesday and
24 Thursday, and then we are going to request them and
25 then they will arrive before June because then we are
1 going to see what is of interest. Perhaps there is
2 something that the Prosecutor may find interesting too,
3 but I don't know if they are going to keep their word.
4 I am just telling you what they have told me.
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we would
6 suggest that perhaps Mr. Fila talk to the witness
7 beforehand and find out which documents are involved
8 because I think if he's going to submit these, we would
9 want the gentleman to verify them in court before we
10 would have no objection to them being admitted into
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Again, so I go back to
13 my proposal, my suggestion, that --
14 MR. FILA: Try. Try. I would have to see
15 them first, but they won't let me see them. That's the
16 problem. Because -- perhaps we know what it's all
17 about also. It pertains to the situation in '90 and
18 '91, attacks on JNA barracks, the ethnic structure of
19 the JNA, how many different ethnic groups there were
20 and how many members of each group, Serbs, Croats,
21 Bosnians, et cetera. That is what they say is a
22 military secret and that they cannot disclose it to
23 me. And that's all. I mean, that is the point. That
24 is the core of the matter, because Mr. Williamson put
25 questions about this ethnic structure of the JNA in the
1 period that is relevant to this indictment. Witness
2 Pavlovic is going to speak about it. He does have
3 figures about that, and he can present them. But only
4 you can ask for an official document, an official
5 report on that.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
7 MR. FILA: That is the core of the matter.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, my suggestion, which
9 was supported by the Prosecutor for other reasons,
10 probably is the best one, but it's not realistic to
11 expect that they will provide by next week all these
13 So I wonder whether we could go about this
14 matter as follows: The witness will come here to
15 testify and will indicate what sort of documents we
16 would need. Then we will send a formal request to the
17 military authorities in Belgrade; and if they send
18 these documents, then in June they may or may not be
19 admitted in evidence after they are shown to the
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I think that
22 would be fine. We wouldn't want to commit ourselves at
23 this point until we have seen the documents.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Of course.
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Perhaps the witness could be
1 recalled in June to identify the documents and to
2 verify them at that time.
3 MR. FILA: That's right. We can recall him.
4 Because I didn't see them. It's a report. For
5 example, they tell me that it was sent to the Tribunal
6 God-knows-when, this report that is being translated.
7 Perhaps it is in the OTP. I don't know. They said
8 that they sent it way back. But whether they sent it,
9 I don't know. I cannot claim that.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will check all
11 that next week.
12 One final issue: The Prosecutor may remember
13 that some time ago we asked the Prosecution to provide
14 the court and, of course, the Defence, with colour
15 stills of Mr. Dokmanovic taken from the videotape. I
16 wonder whether we could get stills in colour of
17 Mr. Dokmanovic?
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we have some
19 stills. I would have to check on the exact status of
20 that. I'm not sure if we have completed it and have
21 all of the stills that the court was asking for, but
22 I'll certainly make every attempt to find out.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: In particular, stills from
24 the tape we saw today and yesterday.
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: From Defence Exhibit 2.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. We will check and see
3 what we can find.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you think we could get all
5 those documents by next Monday? No.
6 MR. WILLIAMSON: I will see. I know that we
7 have had some problem, and I assume that it has
8 affected the first floor as well. We understand that
9 they do not have paper for printing, and so this also
10 includes the appropriate paper for printing
11 photographs. So I'm not sure if that situation has
12 been resolved in its entirety, but I'll endeavour to
13 find out this afternoon.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Any
15 other question or issue to be discussed?
16 All right. So we will resume our hearings on
17 Monday, next Monday, at 9.30. Yes.
18 So we will now adjourn.
19 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned
20 at 5.30 p.m. to be resumed Monday,
21 25 May, 1998 at 9.00 a.m.