1. 1 Tuesday, 19 May 1998

    2 (In open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the

    5 registrar to call out the case number, please?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour.

    7 Case number IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Slavko

    8 Dokmanovic.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. As agreed, we

    10 will do without the appearances and we could start

    11 right away.

    12 [From the OTP: Mr. Niemann, Mr. Williamson,

    13 Mr. Waespi, Mr. Vos

    14 For the Accused: Mr. Fila, Mr. Petrovic,

    15 Mr. Kostic]

    16 Mr. Fila, our next witness is Mr. Lazarevic.

    17 MR. FILA: Yes, Lazarevic.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Lazarevic.

    19 Could you please make the solemn declaration?

    20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    22 truth.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    24 seated.


  2. 1 Examined by Mr. Fila

    2 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you speak with the

    3 investigator from the Fila office, lawyer Miroslav

    4 Vasic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Would you please look if this is your

    7 statement and whether you signed it?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D82,

    9 the English translation D82A.

    10 MR. FILA:

    11 Q. Is that the statement, Mr. Lazarevic?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. FILA: If there are no remarks, Defence

    14 suggests this is submitted as evidence, D82.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I see there is no objection

    16 from the Prosecution. Yes, it is admitted.

    17 MR. FILA:

    18 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you graduate from law

    19 school in Belgrade and when?

    20 A. Yes, 1981.

    21 Q. And then what did you do?

    22 A. Upon my arrival in Kladovo, I was employed as

    23 the Chief of the Secretariat at the Assembly of the

    24 Municipality, then I was President of the

    25 Municipality. After that, I was director of the

  3. 1 company, Termoment (phoen) near Kladovo. After leaving

    2 Kladovo, right now, I am director of the firm, Solidano

    3 (phoen) that's part of the electoral distribution

    4 network of Serbia.

    5 Q. In which period were you President of the

    6 Municipal Assembly of Kladovo?

    7 A. I was elected on November 27th, 1989, and I

    8 was at that post until June 27th of '92.

    9 Q. We're interested in the period of November

    10 20th, '91. So I would like to ask you whether, on that

    11 day, you saw Slavko Dokmanovic?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The day before, did you -- where did you

    14 sleep?

    15 A. I slept in the house of Slavko Dokmanovic in

    16 Trpinja with Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic and my driver, Dragan

    17 Ivezic.

    18 Q. So that's the night between the 19th and 20th

    19 of November?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Would you please play the tape now, which is

    22 the Defence Exhibit D2, from the start of the tape, so

    23 when you see yourself, you will say "This is me," and

    24 then we will go on to the tape.

    25 (Videotape played)

  4. 1 Do you see yourself?

    2 A. Yes, this is me.

    3 Q. Who are the people that you see?

    4 A. This is Mr. Ljoba Novakovic, President of

    5 Backa Palanka. This is Mirko Dragisic, Rade Simic,

    6 Mita Lolic, Djordje Milivojevic, Drago Ljubaliksic

    7 (phoen), Rade Simic, Visa Maletic, Tomic, Slavko

    8 Dokmanovic, Jova Cvetkovic. Slavko Dokmanovic. Mita

    9 Lolic. Slavko Dokmanovic. Mirko Dragisic. This is

    10 me. Rade Leskovac. Djordje Milivojevic, the director

    11 from Backa Palanka. Dusan Niculovic, Boris Ivaskovic.

    12 Q. I suggest that you look at the photographs,

    13 and if you tell us if you are on any of these

    14 photographs. And if you are, you will tell us which

    15 ones.

    16 The photographs are not too good, but the

    17 technical capabilities are bad in Yugoslavia. We don't

    18 have the ability.

    19 Are you on that photograph?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Where?

    22 A. Slavko Dokmanovic, Mita Lolic, Mirko

    23 Dragijic, and myself. So the four of us looking from

    24 this side, from the left to the right.

    25 Q. Thank you. Would you please tell us now how

  5. 1 you found yourself in Backa Palanka when the photograph

    2 was taken; what were you doing there? How did you get

    3 there? Why? With whom did you get there?

    4 A. The previous agreement was to make a

    5 delegation to go to Vukovar to take humanitarian aid,

    6 but since I was friends with Mr. Ljuba Novakovic and we

    7 worked in Backa Palanka and Kladovo, I set the place

    8 for where we were to meet because Backa Palanka is a

    9 place on the Danube, so that's the closest place to

    10 Vukovar.

    11 Q. Okay. How did you get there on the evening

    12 of the 19th and with whom?

    13 A. Slavko Dokmanovic. On the 19th in the

    14 evening at Slavko Dokmanovic's, I came with my driver,

    15 Dragan Ivezic, and we spent the night there.

    16 Q. When did you leave in the morning and who did

    17 you leave with and when did you arrive at Backa

    18 Palanka?

    19 A. I had to leave earlier because of a prior

    20 meeting with businessmen from Backa Palanka, so at six

    21 in the morning, I left Slavko Dokmanovic's house with

    22 my driver.

    23 Q. When did you get to Backa Palanka?

    24 A. Around eight o'clock in the morning.

    25 Q. So Slavko got there later?

  6. 1 A. Yes, later.

    2 Q. In Backa Palanka, you were until when,

    3 approximately?

    4 A. After an informal talk, it was around noon.

    5 Q. So until about noon. And then you left

    6 where?

    7 A. We went towards Vukovar.

    8 Q. So please continue the tape now.

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 MR. FILA: Stop. This picture that you saw

    11 just now, could you play it back in order to see this

    12 photograph. It's around 12 noon, from there, if you

    13 can play the tape?

    14 (Videotape played)

    15 Q. Okay. Who is in the photograph?

    16 A. Myself, Mr. Rade Leskovac, and a soldier, I

    17 don't remember his name.

    18 Q. Would you look at this photo, but only when

    19 the court sees it. Then you can say whether you are on

    20 that photograph and whether that's it.

    21 Is that the time when you are leaving and is

    22 that the place in front of the Municipal Assembly of

    23 Backa Palanka?

    24 A. Yes, this is in front of the entrance to the

    25 assembly.

  7. 1 Q. So is that about the time you're getting

    2 ready to leave?

    3 A. Yes, that's when we're getting ready to

    4 leave.

    5 MR. FILA: Okay. You can run the tape.

    6 (Videotape played)

    7 Q. What is this bridge that you are crossing?

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear.

    9 Q. From Ilok?

    10 A. No, this is on the way out from Backa

    11 Palanka.

    12 Q. This is what we're watching now.

    13 A. This is Tovarnik.

    14 Q. Who is this now? What is this?

    15 A. This is the road towards VELEPROMET.

    16 Q. So it's Vukovar?

    17 A. Yes, Vukovar.

    18 Q. The outskirts of Vukovar?

    19 A. Yes, the outskirts of Vukovar.

    20 Q. Where are we now?

    21 A. We're in the yard of VELEPROMET.

    22 Q. Who are these people here? Who is this?

    23 A. This is Mr. Kosic, Lazarevic, and Tomasevic.

    24 Q. Let the tape run. Who are these people?

    25 A. Goran Hadzic and Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan and

  8. 1 in the back Slavko Dokmanovic. This is Jaksic and

    2 Kosic, Jovan Cvetkovic.

    3 Q. This is all in the yard at VELEPROMET?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 (Videotape played)

    6 Q. Is this the yard at VELEPROMET still?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. What are we looking at?

    9 A. These are people who at that time were in the

    10 yard of VELEPROMET.

    11 Q. Were there soldiers there?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Who are they?

    14 A. Journalists, I think of Swiss television.

    15 Q. And this?

    16 A. This is Mr. Goran Hadzic, Mr. Goran

    17 Pirocanac.

    18 Q. Stop. Would you look at these photographs

    19 now and tell us if you are on them?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D85.

    21 MR. FILA:

    22 Q. Are you depicted in this photograph?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Thank you. Now it's time to ask you

    25 something. You left Backa Palanka at the time we

  9. 1 mentioned. Would you tell us what you left in, who was

    2 in which car, how many cars? What happened from Backa

    3 Palanka until you got to Vukovar?

    4 A. From the yard of VELEPROMET --

    5 Q. No, not from VELEPROMET, from Backa Palanka

    6 when you are leaving at noon towards Vukovar. What is

    7 the group?

    8 A. We left in one car. We divided ourselves

    9 into three groups. One delegation in Lada Niva with

    10 Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic, myself and Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic

    11 and Zoran Jevtovic.

    12 Q. Who was driving?

    13 A. Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic was driving.

    14 Q. Go on?

    15 A. In the other car was my driver with the

    16 municipality's official car with Mr. Mirko Dragisic and

    17 journalist Vukosav Tomasevic.

    18 Q. And the third vehicle?

    19 A. The third vehicle was Mr. Rade Leskovac.

    20 That was his private car.

    21 Q. And then what happened?

    22 A. We went towards Vukovar and we entered

    23 VELEPROMET around two o'clock.

    24 Q. So you arrived with three cars or something

    25 happened en route?

  10. 1 A. En route, Mr. Rade Leskovac had a flat tyre,

    2 so we had to stop. Mr. Rade Leskovac then came into

    3 our car with Slavko Dokmanovic, Zoran Leskovac and

    4 myself.

    5 Q. So there was five of you then. So that is

    6 how you entered into VELEPROMET then?

    7 Wait for ten seconds before you respond.

    8 We stopped the tape, as you saw in the

    9 photograph, around 14.29 where you recognised

    10 yourself. In that time, are you in the yard of


    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Describe the yard for us, where it is? When

    14 you come in, do you pass a gate?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And ...

    17 A. The car was in front of the gate. It was an

    18 iron gate, a door towards the left when you come in on

    19 the left side is the building, and then there were some

    20 hangers, so all the time, when -- in VELEPROMET we were

    21 outside. That's where we were.

    22 Q. I'm talking about the people who came?

    23 A. Mr. Mirko Dragisic, Mr. Jevtovic, Rade

    24 Leskovac, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and Jovan Cvetkovic.

    25 Q. At one moment Slavko Dokmanovic is no longer

  11. 1 there in the yard. What happened?

    2 A. Slavko Dokmanovic entered the building for a

    3 government meeting.

    4 Q. How many entrances does that building have?

    5 A. The building on the left only has one

    6 entrance.

    7 Q. And how long did Slavko stay there?

    8 A. We waited for him outside, so all the time we

    9 were there, maybe until about three o'clock, which is

    10 how long the meeting lasted.

    11 Q. Could he have left the building without you

    12 seeing him?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Around three o'clock, so later, you are then

    15 going where?

    16 A. We're going towards the centre of Vukovar.

    17 MR. FILA: Play the tape, please.

    18 Q. Explain to us what happens.

    19 (Videotape played)

    20 A. May I comment?

    21 Q. Yes, yes.

    22 A. This is outside of the building. We are

    23 going towards the centre of Vukovar.

    24 Yes. This is descending into the centre of

    25 Vukovar. These are comments in the car.

  12. 1 Q. When you hear Slavko Dokmanovic's voice, say

    2 "Now Slavko Dokmanovic is speaking," not what he's

    3 saying, just that he's speaking.

    4 A. That was his voice now. Slavko. This is

    5 Rade Leskovac. Slavko's voice now.

    6 This is Slavko. Slavko. Slavko's voice

    7 still. Slavko's voice. Slavko. Slavko is still

    8 commenting. Slavko. Slavko. Slavko still.

    9 Q. Where is this now?

    10 A. This is as far as you could pass near the bus

    11 station.

    12 MR. FILA: Continue the tape, please.

    13 A. This is Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and Vusko

    14 Tomasevic.

    15 Q. Who is speaking now?

    16 A. Slavko Dokmanovic.

    17 Q. Stop. Would you please look to see if you

    18 are on this photograph?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D86.

    20 MR. FILA:

    21 Q. Maybe it's a good time to clear up a few

    22 things, Mr. Lazarevic. When you left VELEPROMET, with

    23 which car and how did you leave?

    24 A. The car was Lada Niva with Mr. Jovan

    25 Cvetkovic as the driver, Slavko Dokmanovic, Zoran

  13. 1 Jevtovic, Rade Leskovac and myself.

    2 Q. And in the second car?

    3 A. In the second car was my driver with

    4 Mr. Mirko Dragisic and Vukosav Tomasevic.

    5 Q. You saw the photograph in front of you. At

    6 the moment, is that the group that was in the centre of

    7 Vukovar where it was taped?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Where are you sitting in relation to Slavko?

    10 A. All the time during that journey, I was

    11 directly behind Slavko Dokmanovic, so Jovan Cvetkovic

    12 sat in the front, Slavko sat in the co-driver's seat, I

    13 was sitting in the back.

    14 Q. When did you leave from the centre?

    15 A. Around 3.30.

    16 Q. When you left from VELEPROMET, all the time

    17 were you together with Slavko Dokmanovic, practically

    18 in the car behind Slavko Dokmanovic?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could he have gone somewhere without you

    21 seeing him?

    22 A. Absolutely impossible. Impossible.

    23 Q. Where did you leave later from the centre of

    24 Vukovar?

    25 A. We were going towards Sidski Banovci.

  14. 1 Q. Do you stop along the way?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. How many times and where?

    4 A. We stopped twice. The first time, it was in

    5 front of Negoslavci, and the second time near Orolik.

    6 Q. Why the first time and why the second time?

    7 A. The first time we were stopped by the police

    8 because we caught up with a column of buses and

    9 vehicles in front of us and we wanted to pass them, but

    10 the police stopped us there.

    11 Q. Wait. The first time, did you leave the car?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Okay. So the first time, you were stopped by

    14 the police, you don't leave the car?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Slavko Dokmanovic neither?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Okay. Then you go on. The second time,

    19 where were you stopped?

    20 A. This was on the barrier near Orolik where we

    21 were stopped by the military police.

    22 Q. Between those two stops, did you turn from

    23 the road, left, right?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. When you were stopped by the military police

  15. 1 in Orolik, what happens?

    2 A. There was a barrier near Orolik. We were

    3 stopped by the military police, and there was an

    4 incident.

    5 Q. Would you please describe that in detail as

    6 far as you remember?

    7 A. Simply because there was a lot of traffic, we

    8 wanted to pass. We were allowed to pass first, but the

    9 military policeman did not let us pass then. He didn't

    10 let us go further. Then, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and

    11 Rade Leskovac intervened for us to be able to pass.

    12 That didn't help. Then there was a conflict where

    13 weapons were pointed at the whole group. They took

    14 their weapons out, they pointed their weapons towards

    15 our groups.

    16 Q. This was on the side of the army?

    17 A. Yes. At that moment, we all left the car.

    18 Rade and Slavko were arguing with the police officers.

    19 I had a verbal duel on the other side with another

    20 police officer.

    21 Q. Was this a military police officer or regular

    22 police officer?

    23 A. Military police officer. At the end, later,

    24 Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic came out. We asked the Colonel if

    25 we could -- they didn't let us, then they let us. Then

  16. 1 the military police officer and several of them, when

    2 they noticed the insignia on Mr. Cvetkovic, the

    3 captain's insignia on his uniform.

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear the

    5 last question.

    6 Q. When you passed Orolik, you're going towards

    7 Sidski Banovci. When did you get there?

    8 A. We arrived in Sidski Banovci around 5.30.

    9 Q. How long did you stay there?

    10 A. My group, my delegation stayed there for

    11 maybe about an hour.

    12 Q. And during that time, Slavko Dokmanovic was

    13 with you all the time?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. What happens with him after that? What

    16 happens with you? Where did you go?

    17 A. After saying good-bye, our delegation goes

    18 toward Kladovo, goes towards home.

    19 Q. You say good-bye to Slavko Dokmanovic?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. I want to ask you now: All the time from

    22 VELEPROMET until you arrived in Sidski Banovci, was

    23 Slavko Dokmanovic with you all the time and the other

    24 four?

    25 A. Yes.

  17. 1 Q. Was there any time where he ran off somewhere

    2 to do something maybe for five, ten, or more minutes

    3 without you seeing him?

    4 A. No, I was directly behind him.

    5 Q. In the car?

    6 A. Yes, in the car.

    7 Q. Do you remember what kind of clothes he wore

    8 that day?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. What kind of clothes?

    11 A. He had a camouflage hunting uniform.

    12 Q. Is this a JNA uniform?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Could you take a look at this and could you

    15 tell us whether that's it?

    16 D48, please.

    17 Could you please take a look and tell us

    18 whether that is what Slavko Dokmanovic wore that day?

    19 If you cannot recognise something, it's all

    20 right. You don't have to recognise it.

    21 Is that what he wore that day?

    22 A. The vest, the trousers, and the shirt was

    23 similar. I can guarantee for the vest and the

    24 trousers.

    25 Q. Could you take a look at the vest?

  18. 1 A. This is a typical hunting vest.

    2 Q. Are those the colours worn by the Yugoslav

    3 army?

    4 A. No, this is camouflage huntsman's uniform.

    5 Q. Did someone perhaps wear this on another

    6 continent? Does the military on some other continent

    7 where this kind of clothes?

    8 A. No, I've never heard anything like it.

    9 Q. Could I just add something; why this is

    10 attire worn by huntsmen?

    11 A. This is pockets and this is also where

    12 ammunition is worn -- where ammunition is put. So.

    13 Q. So you cannot put a Kalashnikov in here?

    14 A. No, only ammunition for shot guns when you go

    15 hunting.

    16 Q. Can I just ask you one more thing? We're

    17 almost over. The city you can see on the pictures

    18 where you're moving -- I mean on the videotape, the

    19 centre, VELEPROMET, and all that, are you sure it's

    20 Vukovar?

    21 A. Of course I'm sure.

    22 Q. Are you sure?

    23 A. I'm positive.

    24 Q. It's not from some other continent, another

    25 town?

  19. 1 A. No, it's not.

    2 Q. It's not Dresden, for example?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Is it perhaps an American town?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Australian?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. New Zealand perhaps?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Interesting. It's interesting how you guess

    11 that this was Vukovar because there was a problem

    12 yesterday because some people could not remember that

    13 this was Vukovar. It was quite simple. Why? Because

    14 you were there?

    15 A. Yes, because I was there.

    16 Q. Thank you. Could you explain now how come

    17 this tape was filmed in the first place and why this

    18 was done, who filmed it?

    19 A. It was filmed by Mr. Zoran Jevtovic.

    20 Q. Who is that?

    21 A. That is the Director of Radio Djerdap and a

    22 journalist from Radio Djerdap. He is also a friend of

    23 mine so I asked him because I was going to Vukovar and

    24 I wanted to have a memento of this visit and I wanted

    25 to have it on film.

  20. 1 Q. Who was important then for Jevtovic at that

    2 time when he was filming it?

    3 A. The delegation from Kladovo, that was most

    4 important. I mean this is the delegation that I led

    5 from Kladovo.

    6 Q. What was the delegation from Kladovo doing

    7 there?

    8 A. We went there to take humanitarian aid.

    9 Q. In Backa Palanka, did you split up, did some

    10 people stay in Backa Palanka?

    11 A. Yes, we split up.

    12 Q. Why did you split up?

    13 A. Simply one part of my delegation went to

    14 visit our reservists.

    15 Q. Who? Who? Who? Who are these people? I

    16 mean these people who are here now in The Hague with

    17 you?

    18 A. Doran Mitsolovic (phoen), the driver, Djordje

    19 Milivojevic, Visa Maletic, Boris Ivaskovic.

    20 Q. How much time did they spend with Slavko

    21 Dokmanovic in Backa Palanka?

    22 A. An hour or two. Well, we agreed to meet in

    23 Backa Palanka after eight, so from eight until noon,

    24 about four hours.

    25 Q. You were together in Backa Palanka?

  21. 1 A. Yes, we were together in Backa Palanka.

    2 Q. Was Slavko with you all the time?

    3 A. (No answer).

    4 Q. The tape that you saw right now, how did I

    5 obtain this tape, this videotape? How did I get it?

    6 A. When Zoran Jetovic came to Kladovo, that is

    7 to say a few days after the tape was filmed, Zoran made

    8 a copy of it and gave it to me and then I sent copies

    9 of this tape to the people who are on the tape so that

    10 they would have it as a memento for their archives.

    11 Q. Did you send it to Tomasevic?

    12 A. Yes, I sent it to Jovan Cvetkovic, Vukosav

    13 Tomasevic in Prijepolje and the people who are from

    14 Kladovo, they got copies in Kladovo.

    15 Q. Was this in 1991?

    16 A. This was in 1991.

    17 Q. And of course at that time you knew that the

    18 Tribunal would be established in The Hague in '93?

    19 A. I didn't.

    20 Q. You didn't know it?

    21 A. I didn't know it.

    22 Q. And you also knew there would be some kind of

    23 Toma Fila on day, who would need this tape in 1997?

    24 A. No, I didn't know it.

    25 Q. You are saying this was an authentic tape

  22. 1 that was filmed in 1991?

    2 A. Absolutely, yes.

    3 Q. What you saw now on the screen, is that the

    4 tape that you had then?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. I just want to ask you something else in this

    7 connection. How long have you known Slavko Dokmanovic?

    8 A. I have known Slavko Dokmanovic since 1990.

    9 Q. How did you get to meet him? Where did you

    10 meet him?

    11 A. At that time, Slavko Dokmanovic was President

    12 of the Municipality of Vukovar, and I was the President

    13 of Kladovo.

    14 Q. Of the Assembly, the Municipal Assembly?

    15 A. Yes, of the Municipal Assembly. And meeting

    16 of the representatives of Danubian countries was

    17 organised in Belgrade on the 15th and 16th of May,

    18 1990, I represented Kladovo and Slavko represented

    19 Vukovar and that is the beginning of our friendship.

    20 Q. After that, did you meet him again,

    21 afterwards, in the meantime?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many times? Were there any parties, for

    24 example, or how come did you meet?

    25 A. Yes, we had a very good working relationship

  23. 1 and Slavko also came to Kladovo to stay with me as my

    2 friend. He even attended my wedding when I got

    3 married.

    4 Q. Do you know his family too?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Does he have a wife, for example?

    7 A. Yes, I know his family, I know his wife,

    8 Danuka, his daughter, his granddaughter, I know his son

    9 Vlad, I know his brother, I know the neighbourhood.

    10 Q. Where did they live?

    11 A. They live in the village of Trpinja, not far

    12 from Vukovar.

    13 Q. You're sure this is the village of Trpinja,

    14 not far away from Vukovar?

    15 A. Yes, I was there countless numbers of times.

    16 I would spend the night at that house, et cetera.

    17 Q. Did you know of the reputation that that man

    18 enjoyed?

    19 A. From many countless conversations I had with

    20 his family members, with his neighbours, with his

    21 relatives, with his associates in the municipality, I

    22 knew that everyone had a very favourable opinion of him

    23 as a man. First of all, as a person who was employed

    24 in that institution, good and caring husband, parent,

    25 grandfather, an exemplary person who lived in that

  24. 1 village. You could hear only the best about Slavko

    2 Dokmanovic.

    3 Q. What was your impression? Was this an

    4 aggressive man? Is he a man who is capable of doing

    5 something that is contrary to Yugoslav norms, our

    6 norms? I don't know about foreign norms, but our norms

    7 of friendship, of being a good person, et cetera?

    8 A. For all this time that I've known Slavko

    9 Dokmanovic, it's impossible that he could have done

    10 anything like that. He never would have thought of

    11 anything like this. I mean, he certainly is not an

    12 evil man with ill intentions. I mean, he is a quiet

    13 family man, hard-working.

    14 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, the Prosecutor of this

    15 Tribunal has indicted him for being responsible in the

    16 killing of 200 innocent people and played a key role in

    17 that. What do you say to that?

    18 A. This is absolutely untrue and impossible.

    19 MR. FILA: Thank you. Thank you.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    21 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

    22 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, who made the decision for you

    23 to go to Vukovar on the 20th of November, 1991?

    24 A. The decision to go to Vukovar and to give

    25 humanitarian aid to our assistance was passed by our

  25. 1 executive council.

    2 Q. Was this a decision that was made in concert

    3 with a number of municipalities in the area, or was it

    4 something that was unique to your municipality?

    5 A. No, this was a decision of the Municipal

    6 Assembly of Kladovo.

    7 Q. So other mayors or other presidents of

    8 Municipal Assemblies happened to attend Vukovar with

    9 similar motives, and that was simply coincidental?

    10 A. I don't know about others. I just know about

    11 my delegation and our trip to Vukovar.

    12 Q. And when you went there, you went to see your

    13 reservists; is that right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. That means people that had come from the

    16 Kladovo area?

    17 A. These were reservists from the area of the

    18 Municipality of Kladovo.

    19 Q. These are people who had been called up as a

    20 consequence of the conflict in Vukovar; is that right?

    21 A. Reservists from Kladovo up to the age of 50,

    22 I think, yes.

    23 Q. And they were members of the JNA, were they?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And you yourself weren't called up?

  26. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Now, when you went to, first of all, to Backa

    3 Palanka -- and I think you went there on the day before

    4 the 19th -- did you --

    5 MR. FILA: Objection. He never said that he

    6 went to Backa Palanka on the 19th. On the 19th, he

    7 spent the night in Trpinja at Slavko Dokmanovic's

    8 place.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: It is for the witness to say

    10 "Yes" or "No".

    11 MR. FILA: But he said that. The Prosecutor

    12 is saying that he said that he was in Backa Palanka on

    13 the 19th. That is what the Prosecutor is saying, but

    14 that is not what the witness said. The witness said

    15 that he was in Trpinja on the 19th. Play the

    16 transcript back and you'll see.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. But I think that

    18 the witness is capable of saying that he didn't say

    19 what the Prosecutor allegedly is attributing to him. I

    20 wonder whether the Prosecutor may continue.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour pleases.

    22 Q. Perhaps we'll clarify that point then. When

    23 did you set out on your journey to Eastern Slavonia in

    24 order to make the visit to the reservists? When did

    25 you start that journey from Kladovo?

  27. 1 A. I left Kladovo a day earlier with my driver

    2 on the 19th of November, and I spent the night, that

    3 evening, the 19th at Slavko Dokmanovic's place, and the

    4 other part of my delegation arrived the next morning,

    5 on the 20th, in Backa Palanka.

    6 Q. On the day, the 19th, where did you go?

    7 A. On the 19th, I went to Trpinja to Slavko

    8 Dokmanovic's house with Mr. Cvetkovic.

    9 Q. And did you meet Mr. Dokmanovic on the 19th

    10 apart from at his place in Trpinja?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Where did you meet him?

    13 A. We went to pick up Mr. Cvetkovic at Sidski

    14 Banovci, and from Sidski Banovci, we came to Trpinja in

    15 the evening by car.

    16 Q. In order to get from Kladovo to Sidski

    17 Banovci, what towns do you have to go through?

    18 A. When we leave Kladovo, we have to go through

    19 Belgrade, the Geldapa (phoen) highway to Belgrade, and

    20 then there are two or three different roads, but then

    21 we stopped in several places en route. We stopped at

    22 several places, but our destination was Sidski

    23 Banovci. First we went to Erdut.

    24 Q. Did you go via Backa Palanka?

    25 A. Yes. I stopped at Backa Palanka at one

  28. 1 point, but we just wanted to refuel there, wanted to

    2 visit a family friend.

    3 Q. Now, you went -- at the stage that you went

    4 to -- you set off on the 19th, had you made the

    5 decision then to visit Vukovar, that is before you set

    6 off on the 19th, had you made a decision to go to

    7 Vukovar?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. And why is that?

    10 A. Our task was to take humanitarian aid. We

    11 knew that fighting was still going on in Vukovar.

    12 Q. And you didn't realise at that stage that you

    13 would be able to go to Vukovar?

    14 A. No, we didn't even think about that, getting

    15 into Vukovar.

    16 Q. And where was it intended that you would take

    17 your humanitarian aid to the reservists? At what

    18 place?

    19 A. Several places where our reservists were.

    20 Q. Can you tell us where they were?

    21 A. Well, part of them were in Trpinja, another

    22 part in Ernestinovo, and a smaller part in Laslovo.

    23 Q. I think you said you went to pick up

    24 Mr. Cvetkovic; is that right? Or you did pick him up?

    25 A. Yes.

  29. 1 Q. And why did you decide to do that?

    2 A. Well, simply we had agreed to do so. I

    3 simply wanted to see my friend.

    4 Q. But how did you know to pick him up? What

    5 were the arrangements made in order to do that? Was

    6 that something that Mr. Dokmanovic had told you about

    7 on the 19th or is that something that you discovered

    8 independently of Mr. Dokmanovic?

    9 A. We had agreed on that. In Erdut, we decided

    10 to visit Jovan Cvetkovic with Slavko Dokmanovic.

    11 Q. So it was Mr. Dokmanovic's decision, was it?

    12 A. No, it was my decision.

    13 Q. And you knew, obviously, that Mr. Cvetkovic

    14 was at Sidski Banovci?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And you knew that independently of what

    17 Mr. Dokmanovic would have told you?

    18 A. I said a few minutes ago that it was my

    19 decision to go to see Jovan Cvetkovic, but I knew that

    20 Mr. Cvetkovic was in Sidski Banovci.

    21 Q. And how did you know that?

    22 A. I knew because before that, we used to see

    23 each other, and I know when he decided to go with his

    24 reservists to the war.

    25 Q. Why didn't you decide to go with your

  30. 1 reservists in the same way as Mr. Cvetkovic did?

    2 A. Mr. Cvetkovic made his own decision, and I

    3 admire him for it. But my decision at that point in

    4 time was that I could help in other ways if I stayed at

    5 home.

    6 Q. And help the reservists.

    7 A. I don't understand your question.

    8 Q. You could help the reservists in other ways,

    9 is my question. Is that what you said?

    10 A. No. My function was to be the first among

    11 equals in Kladovo, and I thought that when I would work

    12 in Kladovo and send this humanitarian aid, that I would

    13 be contributing in that way. I had not been mobilised.

    14 Q. So when you took the humanitarian aid to the

    15 reservists, this was one way of you showing your

    16 support for them being engaged in this war.

    17 A. No. No, this was simply my duty as President

    18 of the Municipal Assembly to come and see my own

    19 people, after all, these are our friends, our

    20 neighbours, our brothers. So it's not that we are

    21 expressing support for someone. This is simply a

    22 normal act. This is practice with us in the

    23 Municipality of Kladovo.

    24 Q. So you weren't trying to support them; is

    25 that what you're saying? I don't understand your

  31. 1 answer. You're either there to give them humanitarian

    2 aid in support or you didn't.

    3 A. I don't understand -- I mean, what does this

    4 mean, this kind of support? I'm sorry, but could you

    5 please explain this. What do you mean by "support"?

    6 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that you had reservists

    7 from your municipality of Kladovo who were located in

    8 the war theatre? That's a fact, isn't it?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And isn't it a fact that you wanted to show

    11 solidarity and support with them because of the tasks

    12 that they were performing? That's true, isn't it?

    13 MR. FILA: No, no.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Fila, he is saying "No, no"

    15 over there, and I think it's very distracting for him

    16 to be making comments when I'm cross-examining.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, please do refrain

    18 from indicating your position.

    19 Let us move on. Mr. Niemann?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 Q. So that isn't true. So then why, just tell

    22 us why you took this humanitarian aid to the reservists

    23 from the Kladovo area if you didn't do it in order to

    24 support them and assist them?

    25 A. Simply we took humanitarian aid, cigarettes,

  32. 1 coffee, we took parcels that their families had

    2 prepared for them, and this was simply a token of our

    3 care in every possible human way. We were trying to

    4 help our fellow citizens who were on the front. I

    5 mean, this is the way we treated our people who would

    6 go to the front or who would come back from the front.

    7 Q. The next day, that's the morning of the 20th,

    8 you went to Backa Palanka ahead of Mr. Dokmanovic and

    9 you met him at the municipal assembly building in Backa

    10 Palanka; that's right, isn't it?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Then followed a meeting of a number of

    13 gentlemen that we saw on the video who met there at

    14 that building; is that right?

    15 A. First of all, this was a gathering of

    16 friends. This was an informal meeting. I was the only

    17 one who had already had a meeting scheduled with a few

    18 directors from Backa Palanka, and this was simply a

    19 gathering of old buddies and friends.

    20 Q. Yes. Well, I'm not disputing that. What was

    21 discussed at this meeting of old buddies and friends?

    22 A. Some of these people hadn't seen each other

    23 for quite some time, some people had been absent. I

    24 had taken care of this -- these economic affairs that I

    25 had to handle because, on the one hand, I was supposed

  33. 1 to bring this humanitarian aid, and on the other hand,

    2 I was supposed to talk to these directors of various

    3 companies in Backa Palanka. So these were friends who

    4 met after quite some time. We talked about, naturally,

    5 family affairs, also what was going on in terms of the

    6 war, and also some of us, at least part of my

    7 delegation, we were discussing economic affairs too.

    8 Q. And in terms of things going on in relation

    9 to the war, what did you discuss?

    10 A. We were commenting on the situation that

    11 prevailed in those days in that area. Nothing special.

    12 Q. Was there any discussion about what would

    13 happen in Vukovar once the conflict had ceased?

    14 A. Could you please clarify your question to me,

    15 please?

    16 Q. Did you discuss -- was there any discussion

    17 about what would happen in Vukovar once the conflict

    18 was over and the matter with the place was restored to

    19 normal again?

    20 A. No, no. The fighting was still on. On that

    21 day, we found out that one could enter part of Vukovar,

    22 and we weren't really discussing the future of Vukovar,

    23 something like that. No mention was made of that.

    24 Q. And when precisely is it that you found out

    25 that you could enter part of Vukovar?

  34. 1 A. I can't say exactly, but it was during these

    2 conversations there in the assembly of Backa Palanka, I

    3 can't tell you the exact time, but during this meeting.

    4 Q. And who provided you with this information?

    5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I can't remember

    6 now, but someone brought this piece of news into this

    7 meeting room where we were sitting. Someone said that

    8 one could enter part of Vukovar.

    9 Q. Now, at this meeting in Backa Palanka, was

    10 there anyone armed?

    11 A. As far as I can remember, no.

    12 Q. May I have Exhibit D83?

    13 Just looking at the gentleman sitting at the

    14 furthest end of the table, right at the top end of the

    15 table. Does he have a weapon in his hand?

    16 A. I can't really discern faces in this picture.

    17 Q. I'm not asking you to tell us who it was, I'm

    18 simply asking whether the gentleman at the far end is

    19 holding a machine gun. I think it's a machine gun.

    20 A. No.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Well, perhaps we could have a

    22 look at the video, if we could, and could we start the

    23 video at that point, around about 10.36, I think?

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 Q. Stop. Do you see that gentleman there with

  35. 1 something in his hand?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Do you know what that is?

    4 A. Probably some kind of weapon. Could you play

    5 it back? Could you rewind it just a bit?

    6 Q. By all means, yes. If it could just be

    7 played back?

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 A. Yes, it looks like a weapon.

    10 Q. Why was it necessary for people to be armed

    11 at that meeting?

    12 A. I answered that none of us wore a weapon, but

    13 this is probably a person escorting Colonel Tomic

    14 because he was the only one who wore a uniform in

    15 addition to Mr. Cvetkovic, so I gather this is someone

    16 from Colonel Tomic's escort.

    17 Q. While we are with the tape, I think we will

    18 deal with it now, if I may?

    19 You said that the first stop that you made

    20 after you left Vukovar at the end of the day, after you

    21 left Vukovar, was at Negoslavci; is that right? That's

    22 what you said in your evidence?

    23 A. No, I said that we stopped for the first time

    24 somewhere before Negoslavci.

    25 Q. And how much before Negoslavci?

  36. 1 A. I can't say exactly, but it was directly

    2 before the entrance to Negoslavci.

    3 Q. Can you tell us in terms of metres, how far

    4 that would be before you entered Negoslavci?

    5 Approximately. I know you didn't measure it, no doubt.

    6 A. It's impossible. I can't.

    7 Q. Is it an area where there are houses or is it

    8 open fields?

    9 A. I think it's -- this is directly before the

    10 entrance to Negoslavci, so maybe there were a few

    11 houses and then you would go in, so it was directly

    12 before the entrance.

    13 Q. Thank you. And I'll just confirm this on the

    14 tape so that it's the same place that we're talking

    15 about, if I can? And might the tape be shown right at

    16 the very end, 15.36, on the 20th of November?

    17 After you leave Vukovar -- well, we're

    18 waiting for the tape. After you leave Vukovar, are

    19 there any houses between Vukovar and Negoslavci that

    20 you can remember?

    21 A. I can't remember exactly.

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 Q. Now, this is in Vukovar, is it not?

    24 A. Yes, this is going out of Vukovar.

    25 Q. And these are the last houses at Vukovar?

  37. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Now, this is -- what's this place here? Just

    3 stop there, if we may?

    4 A. This is when we met the -- caught up with the

    5 column of buses with the people who were being

    6 evacuated from VELEPROMET.

    7 Q. And just for the record tell me again where

    8 that was.

    9 A. I can't remember exactly where.

    10 Q. Well, as precisely as you can, perhaps.

    11 A. I can't tell you exactly.

    12 Q. I didn't ask you exactly. You said a moment

    13 ago it was on the outskirts of Negoslavci, didn't you?

    14 A. No, no. I said, when you asked when we

    15 stopped for the first time, this is the road to

    16 Negoslavci. Our first stop was before Negoslavci.

    17 Q. And didn't you say that that was right at the

    18 entrance to Negoslavci, your first stop, when you met

    19 the buses?

    20 A. Yes. When we were stopped by the military --

    21 no, the police, that was the first time before and --

    22 close to Negoslavci, before the entrance to Negoslavci.

    23 Q. And that last clip that we saw with the

    24 buses, was that the place that you're talking about, or

    25 is it somewhere else? This one here that we're looking

  38. 1 at. Is this the place we're talking about or was it

    2 some place else?

    3 A. I can't tell you exactly whether that was the

    4 place. Probably that was that part when we were

    5 catching up with the buses.

    6 Q. Tell us again: Where was it that you caught

    7 up with the buses?

    8 A. I said exactly at the entrance to Negoslavci,

    9 on the road to Sidski Banovci, so somewhere on the road

    10 before Negoslavci.

    11 Q. Is there some doubt in your mind that this

    12 part of the video represents that place where you met

    13 up with the buses?

    14 A. I can't tell you exactly or remember whether

    15 that was that place exactly.

    16 Q. Now, might the witness be given a copy, the

    17 court copy, of the tape, D2, I think it is?

    18 Now, Mr. Lazarevic, I'd like you to examine

    19 it closely, take it out of its cover and look at it

    20 closely. I'm asking you to look at the box in the case

    21 and the tape itself.

    22 Now, that's the videotape that you received

    23 relating to your visit to Vukovar, is it not?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Now, when did you receive it?

  39. 1 A. A few days on the return of Zoran Jetovic

    2 from Uzice, so a few days after our return to Kladovo.

    3 Q. So you returned on the 21st, you would have

    4 been back in Kladovo on the 21st, is that right, or the

    5 20th?

    6 A. It would be already the 21st, early in the

    7 morning.

    8 Q. And a few days after that, say -- what? --

    9 three days after that?

    10 A. I don't know precisely. A few days on our

    11 return. So whether that was three or five days, I

    12 don't know.

    13 Q. So it could have been as few days as three or

    14 as many as five?

    15 A. No, I didn't say -- I said a few days.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, again I protest

    17 that Mr. Fila is making comments in the course of the

    18 evidence.

    19 MR. FILA: Mr. Fila turned his back on the

    20 Prosecution. If necessary, I'll leave. I'll leave the

    21 premises. With the permission of the court, I will

    22 leave so that Mr. Niemann could ask his questions.

    23 Thank you. And I will leave the gentleman to sit in

    24 for me.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us please --

  40. 1 MR. FILA: If Mr. Niemann thinks that I am

    2 disrupting the questions when my back is turned when he

    3 made the remark, I turned my back and I will sit that

    4 way throughout the whole process because that's my

    5 protest, but I will go out for him until he finishes

    6 posing his learned questions and then I will come

    7 back. Is that okay?

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: No, please do stay here and,

    9 of course, I'm sure that you will go -- you will

    10 refrain from making any comments and remarks, it goes

    11 without saying, I am sure you will behave quite

    12 properly, and I wonder whether Mr. Niemann could

    13 continue?

    14 MR. NIEMANN:

    15 Q. So it could have been as few as three days or

    16 as many as five that you received the tape?

    17 A. No, I said it was a few days, so I don't

    18 remember. A few days upon the return of Zoran Jetovic.

    19 Q. I'm just trying to see if you could help me

    20 as being as precise as possible as to what you received

    21 the tape, that's all, and I'm just asking you if you

    22 can think back to then and tell me whether you remember

    23 it as being as few as three days or whether it was as

    24 many as five?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, I'm sorry to

  41. 1 interrupt you, but I think that the --

    2 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have to protest.

    3 This is really not okay.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: ... That the witness is not

    5 able to say how many days after his return back home he

    6 received this particular tape, so he said a few days.

    7 Can we move on to a further question? Clearly he

    8 cannot remember precisely the number of days.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: As Your Honour pleases.

    10 Q. Now, who made a copy of the tape for you?

    11 A. A copy of the tape was made by Zoran Jetovic,

    12 the Director of Radio Djerdap.

    13 Q. And this was the tape that you provided to

    14 Mr. Fila?

    15 A. Yes, this is my tape that I gave to the Fila

    16 lawyers' office, and this is my handwriting on the back

    17 of the tape here.

    18 Q. And just finally, just going back to the time

    19 you left Vukovar on that day of the 20th of November of

    20 1991, is it your evidence that after you left the

    21 centre of Vukovar, you did not stop until you reached

    22 the buses? The vehicles did not stop at any stage or

    23 make any turns or changes to your trip until you

    24 reached the buses which you believe to be somewhere

    25 near Negoslavci?

  42. 1 A. In my previous statement, I said that upon

    2 our return on our way out from the centre of Vukovar,

    3 we stopped twice: Once was shortly before Negoslavci

    4 when we were stopped by the police; the second time we

    5 stopped near Orolik. There was never any turning off

    6 from the road until Sidski Banovci.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    8 Honour.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    10 MR. FILA: I would like the witness to see

    11 the continuation of the tape on the 28th and explain

    12 how it was that the visit on the 20th and 28th is on

    13 the same tape because that was the sense of the

    14 questions, two, three, five days.

    15 Please play the continuation of the tape of

    16 the 28th so that we could see how both tapes are on the

    17 same tape because that was the sense of the previous

    18 questions.

    19 (Videotape played)


    21 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.

    22 Q. Please note this tape. What is that? What

    23 is this? When was this filmed? When did you receive a

    24 copy of that?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could the witness please

  43. 1 answer the question asked by Mr. Fila?

    2 MR. FILA: Stop.

    3 A. This recording from the 28th was made during

    4 the visit of the delegation, our delegation, from

    5 Kladovo to the workers who were temporarily working

    6 abroad who had collected humanitarian aid.

    7 Q. Did you get both of those tapes on this

    8 videotape that you have from Zoran Jetovic?

    9 A. The visit of the 28th was added to this

    10 tape. The visit on the 28th was recorded later and it

    11 was added to the tape.

    12 MR. FILA: Thank you. I think this has been

    13 clarified now.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No further

    15 questions?

    16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, it's really a question

    17 for you rather than the witness.

    18 We were given at the outset of these

    19 proceedings a transcript which related to the tape, and

    20 at some stage, it would be helpful to go through that

    21 transcript -- it may be during the evidence of your

    22 client -- and know who is speaking and when since we

    23 have an English translation of it, and at the moment we

    24 don't know who is speaking, we have had general

    25 evidence about it, but obviously it would be useful to

  44. 1 know if it is possible to identify who says what.

    2 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I would like to

    3 respond right away to that question. It was promised

    4 that the Dutch authorities would have expert testimony

    5 on this tape, they would check the accuracy of the

    6 transcript that I have given you, so in order to avoid

    7 me talking, commenting, influencing -- as we have had

    8 remarks from the other side -- I wanted the Dutch

    9 authorities which cooperate with the Prosecution and

    10 not with me to establish the accuracy of the transcript

    11 that I guarantee the accuracy. This was done by the

    12 Serbian police, the transcript by the Serb police

    13 should not be trusted. The Dutch police can be

    14 trusted.

    15 Unfortunately, Dutch -- the police, in spite

    16 of promises from the Prosecution, has done nothing. I

    17 am completing my witnesses next week because I have

    18 said that in my country, people stick to their word and

    19 not to their horns. In French and Latin, I will keep

    20 my word, if you wish. If I get this attest as to the

    21 accuracy of the tape by Monday, then I could show the

    22 transcript on Monday. But in spite of Mr. Williamson's

    23 efforts, because he did try to help -- I want to say

    24 that -- the Dutch police has still not done this.

    25 I would like to have the transcript and we

  45. 1 can show it to Mr. Lazarevic and we can play the tape.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I would just like

    3 to say that we've had nothing to do with any delay

    4 associated with this. We merely acted as a conduit to

    5 the Dutch police on behalf of the Defence. So any

    6 suggestion that there has been no cooperation isn't a

    7 consequence of anything we have done. We reject that,

    8 Your Honour.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    10 MR. FILA: If Your Honour -- if you listen to

    11 me, I thanked Mr. Williamson just now for his help, so

    12 I'm not really -- I am thanking him, but we are not

    13 expert witnesses. The Dutch police did not do what it

    14 was supposed to do, and Mr. Williamson enabled me to

    15 get in contact with them. I don't have a copy of the

    16 transcript right now.

    17 Maybe we can have a break and then after the

    18 break we can do that. I will photocopy the transcript

    19 in five copies.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. Maybe we

    21 could ask the witness to be so kind as to remain here,

    22 so that after the break as suggested by Mr. Fila, we

    23 could check the transcript.

    24 Now, I wonder whether the Prosecution could

    25 insist with the Dutch police that they should cooperate

  46. 1 and do what Mr. Fila asked for?

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we -- I am in no

    3 position to insist on anything with the Dutch police,

    4 and we have provided them with the material and they --

    5 I'll ask Mr. Williamson to address Your Honour on the

    6 specific details of it -- but as a matter of general

    7 principle, we are in no position to insist on anything

    8 of the sort. And all we can do is contact them and do

    9 it in a timely manner, which we did, and it really

    10 should be a matter for Mr. Fila to pursue, not for us.

    11 We want to distance ourselves from it and not be

    12 involved in it, frankly. It's a Defence matter. But

    13 I'll ask Mr. Williamson to give you details.

    14 JUDGE MAY: I think, to assist, it's not

    15 really the accuracy of the tape as far as I know is in

    16 dispute, unless there is some point made about it.

    17 It's merely, if it's possible to identify who is saying

    18 what, particularly what the Defendant says.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Which I assume can be done.

    20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, if I can help?

    21 Mr. Williamson gave me the contact. We called that

    22 person and we found out that he was on vacation until

    23 Wednesday. I can't do anything about that.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson?

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we made the

  47. 1 initial contacts with the Dutch laboratory just to find

    2 out the feasibility of doing these tests. They had

    3 indicated that it was a rather labour-intensive

    4 process, that they have to take voice samples, and it

    5 is not only picking out the voice of Mr. Dokmanovic but

    6 they also have to eliminate all of the other voices, so

    7 this is, as I understand it, a rather timely process.

    8 I communicated that to Ms. Lopicic, we got

    9 the tape and forwarded it to the Dutch lab. As

    10 Mr. Fila said, the technician that was doing this was

    11 on vacation at that time. When the Dutch laboratory

    12 called us back to ask questions about it, I then gave

    13 that information directly to Ms. Lopicic and suggested

    14 she continue the contact directly with them, rather

    15 than me being the intermediary and relaying information

    16 from both sides. At that time we indicated we would

    17 withdraw from the process and that the Defence could

    18 communicate directly with them and work out everything.

    19 But as Mr. Niemann has indicated, we don't

    20 have any particular influence over them, and whether it

    21 be for the Defence or the Prosecution, it is, in fact,

    22 a favour that the Dutch lab is doing, although they are

    23 charging for it so ...

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 MR. FILA: I even have funds from the

  48. 1 registrar, so we've done everything but you can imagine

    2 how much influence I have on the Dutch police. A lot.

    3 You can imagine.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: To take up a point made by

    5 Judge May, I think Judge May is right in pointing out

    6 that what is in dispute is not the authenticity of this

    7 tape, whether or not the tape is authentic. It's a

    8 question to verify -- verifying who is saying what. So

    9 we could probably -- I wonder whether, after the break,

    10 we could try to put names next to voices on the

    11 transcript.

    12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, there is no problem

    13 at all, but you will just have to go through the whole

    14 tape again. Mr. Lazarevic knows exactly who is

    15 speaking when, but you will just have to go through the

    16 whole tape again. It is inevitable we have to listen

    17 to it again.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Why not? I mean, if it is in

    19 the interests of Mr. Williamson --

    20 MR. WILLIAMSON: There is no objection from

    21 us, Your Honour.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: And could use our transcript

    23 and --

    24 MR. FILA: It's strenuous.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. So we have

  49. 1 a 20-minute break, we will take a 20-minute break now

    2 and --

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just before you

    4 do break. Might I be excused after the break?


    6 --- Recess at 10.38 a.m.

    7 --- Resumed at 10.50 a.m.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: We have a transcript of the

    9 tape in front of us. I wonder whether we could show it

    10 again?

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, before we

    12 begin, I have one brief matter that I would like to

    13 address the court on.

    14 During the break, we have had an opportunity

    15 to review the videotape of the proceedings which is

    16 made contemporaneously as court progresses. On this

    17 tape it is very clear that Mr. Fila suggested an answer

    18 to the witness. This is displayed on the tape. We

    19 understand that it is impossible to show that now

    20 because the tape is continually used for the

    21 proceedings. It would, however, be available at the

    22 end of the day.

    23 Mr. Fila took great exception when we raised

    24 this issue, but we feel that this goes to the very

    25 integrity of the proceedings and is highly

  50. 1 inappropriate behaviour; and therefore, we would

    2 suggest that the court view this tape at the end of the

    3 day's proceedings.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    5 MR. FILA: I just want to be quite clear. If

    6 this trial -- people are recording what I'm saying to

    7 my colleague, Mr. Kostic, I mean, what the Defence

    8 attorneys are discussing here, then I would also like

    9 to be in a position to see a tape to see what the

    10 Prosecutors are doing at the other end, especially when

    11 they are laughing while we are putting questions to the

    12 witness.

    13 I had my back turned to them, and it's quite

    14 obvious -- you can see it very nicely on this tape -- I

    15 turned my back to the witness when I was talking to

    16 Mr. Kostic. I sign their statements, and I don't know

    17 where they learned to behave this way. I mean,

    18 listening to what the Defence table is discussing, it

    19 is impermissible.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, would you allow us a

    21 moment, please?

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: The court has decided that

    23 both parties should be called upon to refrain from

    24 making any comments while the witnesses are being

    25 examined or cross-examined.

  51. 1 Mr. Fila, please, when you question

    2 witnesses, please don't suggest answers or try to

    3 refrain from anything which might influence the

    4 witness, and the same applies to the Prosecutor.

    5 We will move on without going into this --

    6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I just wanted to

    7 explain something. I actually engaged Mr. Kostic

    8 because I am not familiar with cross-examination and he

    9 is, and I consult him on that. So I turn my back to

    10 the witness and I talk to Mr. Kostic. I promise I

    11 shall do that in the future too. I turn my back to the

    12 witness and I talk to Mr. Kostic, and I believe that

    13 that would be sufficient for the purposes of the

    14 Prosecutor.

    15 So now let us move on --

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might just

    17 respond very briefly? I understand you have ruled.

    18 This was not a question of him speaking with

    19 Mr. Kostic. He had his back turned; the question was

    20 asked. He turned his head and said "Ne," turned right

    21 back. This is clearly evidenced on the tape. This is

    22 not a question of us listening in on his conversations

    23 or trying to interfere in any way with the carrying on

    24 of their defence.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I did understand

  52. 1 what your position was, but I'm sure that Mr. Fila will

    2 refrain --

    3 MR. FILA: Thank you.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: -- will refrain from making

    5 comments, and the same applies to the Prosecutor who,

    6 yes, should not sometimes smile or ...

    7 Thank you. Let us now try to move on and to

    8 get down to business.

    9 Could we now go through the tape, and we

    10 would ask --

    11 MR. FILA: Please, if possible, could we give

    12 the witness a transcript, a copy of the transcript, if

    13 it is possible, so that he could follow it too? This

    14 is the transcript in Serbian. I mean, there is one in

    15 Serbian and there is one in English.

    16 The Serbian, please.

    17 And, if I understood you correctly, whenever

    18 you hear someone speaking, then he says who is the

    19 person who is speaking; is that right?

    20 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, when you hear someone

    21 speaking, just say the name, please.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The Serbian transcript will

    23 be marked as D87.

    24 MR. FILA: Do you want the whole tape or only

    25 the part from Vukovar, when they were going from

  53. 1 VELEPROMET to Vukovar and then from Vukovar to Sidski

    2 Banovci? Do you want only that section, or do you want

    3 the part from Backa Palanka too? I think it's not that

    4 important, that first part.

    5 It was page 6, I think. It would be page 6,

    6 if the Prosecutor agrees only to proceed from page 6

    7 onwards.

    8 JUDGE MAY: What I had in mind, there were

    9 some comments on the way to Vukovar and going to

    10 VELEPROMET. There were some comments -- I think

    11 Tovarnik at about 12.20.

    12 MR. FILA: That's right, we start from there,

    13 I think -- not from VELEPROMET, from Backa Palanka to

    14 Vukovar. I think that. That is twenty past twelve.

    15 So please play the tape from twenty past twelve.

    16 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you heard that. This is

    17 twenty past twelve. That is when you arrive in

    18 Tovarnik. Whenever you hear a comment being made,

    19 whenever you hear someone's voice, you just say name,

    20 "Toma Fila" or whatever. I think the system is quite

    21 clear.

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 A. This is Zoran Jevtovic.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, at

    25 what point are we beginning, perhaps?

  54. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it page --

    2 MR. FILA: I'm sorry. Again, I turned my

    3 back. I wasn't looking.

    4 Page 6 of the English version, twelve

    5 o'clock. At twelve o'clock, they are in front of Backa

    6 Palanka; right?

    7 JUDGE MAY: We must establish on the English

    8 version what is being said as well as in the Serbian.

    9 I think it's somewhere near page 3.

    10 MR. FILA: If you agree, we can start at the

    11 point when they're leaving Backa Palanka. That is the

    12 road to Tovarnik.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: But we have got to trace this

    14 particular point on the transcript.

    15 MR. FILA: Transcript.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    17 MR. FILA: Perhaps we can proceed in the

    18 following way, if Your Honours agree? At 10.39, you

    19 have in the transcript our handwriting saying Slavko

    20 Dokmanovic speaking. That is page 3 of "SD: I respect

    21 that." Page 3 of the English transcript. That is

    22 10.39. Can we start from there? So please play the

    23 tape from 10.39, please?

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 A. Slavko.

  55. 1 Q. And other persons. Whoever's voice you

    2 recognise.

    3 A. That is the voice of Dragoljub Aleksic, the

    4 President of Vrsac.

    5 That's my voice.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: What we want to know is who

    7 is saying what. So if he can probably, when the tape

    8 has a few words, then he says, "This is me saying

    9 this." Could he probably say the first few words so

    10 that we can identify on the transcript the relevant

    11 parts?

    12 MR. FILA: Please rewind the tape to the

    13 beginning, and you say what you're saying.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: This, of course, applies also

    15 to what other people are saying. When he identifies,

    16 for instance, Dokmanovic, say the first few words so

    17 that we can pinpoint on the transcript the relevant

    18 part.

    19 MR. FILA:

    20 Q. You repeat the first words that he says so

    21 that they can see and then you start by what I say.

    22 Play the tape.

    23 A. "Mirko, look at this over here." Can you

    24 find it?

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe it's

  56. 1 the top paragraph of page 4.

    2 MR. FILA: Yes. Line 7 from above, line 7

    3 from above.

    4 Do you want the witness to identify only

    5 himself or everyone?

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Everyone.

    7 MR. FILA: Everyone? Play the tape further

    8 on, please.

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 A. Jova Cvetkovic.

    11 Q. Repeat what he said.

    12 A. "Reported ... the goals." Slavko.

    13 Q. What's he saying?

    14 A. "And look at what he looks like now."

    15 Rade Leskovac: "Here, we go left here."

    16 Q. Continue.

    17 A. Rade Leskovac.

    18 Q. What is he saying?

    19 A. "Well, there is, there is also ..."

    20 Q. Continue.

    21 A. "Take four soldiers and come here." I can't

    22 recognise the voice. It is someone in VELEPROMET. One

    23 of our people.

    24 Stop. Rade Leskovac.

    25 Q. What does he say?

  57. 1 A. "Look at Arkan." Zoran Jevtovic.

    2 Q. What is he saying?

    3 A. "It might be more important to record the

    4 ones down here."

    5 Q. Continue.

    6 A. Stop. Rade Leskovac: "What?"

    7 Q. Continue.

    8 A. Stop. Slavko.

    9 Q. What does he say?

    10 A. "The Captain is Jova Cvetkovic, a people's

    11 deputy from Svetozarevo." Continue.

    12 Stop. Jaksic: "From Svetozarevo?"

    13 Continue.

    14 Jaksic: "How could I not know you?"

    15 "Welcome." That was Jaksic. Continue.

    16 Stop. Slavko: "A volunteer in Banovci, will

    17 you look at that!" All right. Continue.

    18 "People's deputy." Slavko. Continue.

    19 I'm sorry. Could we just rewind the tape a

    20 bit? Please rewind the tape. Make -- rewind it. A

    21 bit more. A bit more. That's it.

    22 The previous sentence was mine: "Then we'll

    23 make pictures of them later."

    24 Q. Please play the tape further. This is page

    25 6. Page 6, paragraph 2. Play the tape.

  58. 1 A. Stop. "Slow on. Keep it a bit." That was

    2 Mirko Dragisic.

    3 Stop. Rade Leskovac: "Let's get into the

    4 car and go."

    5 Q. Stop. This is page 6, the penultimate

    6 paragraph in the English text. Go on.

    7 A. Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "This is Boro's

    8 house." Go on, go on.

    9 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "It's there." Say

    10 it. "Fuck him."

    11 Let's go -- stop. Slavko Dokmanovic a bit

    12 before that: "Well we are going to see a little."

    13 That's okay.

    14 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "We are going to

    15 see a little" -- no, Jova Cvetkovic. "Well we are

    16 going to see a little." One, two, three, four, fourth

    17 line.

    18 Slavko Dokmanovic and Rade Leskovac after

    19 him: "No, no, no. That is Paunovic's. That belongs

    20 to a Serb, a very rich man from before the war."

    21 Q. Who said that?

    22 A. Slavko and Rade Leskovac together.

    23 "No, no. A family church." Slavko

    24 Dokmanovic.

    25 Q. Go on.

  59. 1 A. Stop. "Oh, a family church." Jova

    2 Cvetkovic.

    3 Please, please. "No, no. A family church."

    4 Can we continue from that point?

    5 No, could you rewind it a bit more than

    6 that?

    7 That's okay. Just let the tape play. Stop.

    8 "These houses were Ustashe. Every last one of them

    9 Ustashe. This one here is Pivanda's." Slavko

    10 Dokmanovic.

    11 Slavko. After Slavko, "Folks, I could not

    12 imagine this in my dreams," that was Rade Leskovac. Go

    13 on.

    14 Slavko Dokmanovic's voice saying -- it's not

    15 in the transcript, but it says: "It was built without

    16 a permit."

    17 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "This man is doing

    18 his best to try to make this functional, look at it!"

    19 Stop. "Look!" And then a cuss word. That

    20 was Zoran Jevtovic.

    21 Stop. Rade Leskovac.

    22 Q. Saying what?

    23 A. "People...!!!"

    24 Q. Go on.

    25 A. Stop. "People, is that possible?!" Rade

  60. 1 Leskovac.

    2 Stop. "Well, look! Horror and terror."

    3 Cuss word. Jova Cvetkovic.

    4 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "Not even Stalingrad

    5 looked like this."

    6 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic.

    7 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "Unbelievable!

    8 This is that Jovica's house. Lukic. They killed him."

    9 Stop. "Look at this." Jova Cvetkovic. Go

    10 on.

    11 Stop. Rade Leskovac: "God Almighty!"

    12 Stop. "Look at little Zoki. My Zoki!"

    13 Slavko Dokmanovic.

    14 Stop. "This which the camera records ..."

    15 Rade Leskovac.

    16 Stop. Slavko: "And this, this is the

    17 Serbian church. They burned it and they destroyed it.

    18 Before it ..."

    19 Stop. Mr. Rade Leskovac: "Fuck their

    20 Ustashe mother a thousand times. Theirs and

    21 Tudjman's!"

    22 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic saying: "Look!"

    23 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "The world has

    24 never seen anything like this."

    25 Stop. The voice of Slavko Dokmanovic: "Not

  61. 1 even that ..." And then the voice of Rade Leskovac.

    2 Stop. "Anhajn." Slavko.

    3 Stop. "God Almighty" twice, Rade Leskovac.

    4 Stop. "There's a corpse! There's a corpse!

    5 Look, tape it!" That's Rade Leskovac.

    6 And then beneath that, "Eyes were gouged out,

    7 hey!" Rade Leskovac.

    8 Stop. "There is another one, there." Mirko

    9 Dragisic.

    10 Stop. "Their Ustashe mother!" et cetera,

    11 Rade Leskovac.

    12 Stop. "Come on, record this." That is the

    13 voice of my driver, Dragan Ivezic.

    14 Stop. "Guys, there are many corpses here."

    15 Rade Leskovac.

    16 Stop. Zoran Jevtovic: "I am coming, I just

    17 want to record how destroyed the town is."

    18 Stop. "Don't touch it. It smells!" Zoran

    19 Jevtovic.

    20 Stop. Slavko: "... one great sorrow, not

    21 only over the town, but also over thousands of dead and

    22 innocent people." Go on.

    23 Q. Whose voice is this now?

    24 A. "... that lived to see the same fate as 50

    25 years ago, to be killed, slaughtered for no reason ...

  62. 1 corpses." That's Slavko's voice.

    2 Q. That's Slavko, the entire paragraph?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Go on.

    5 A. Stop. "The others will be left with memories

    6 only." That is Slavko. And before that, all of that

    7 was Slavko. So say the whole thing.

    8 "It is all so horrible. It must be most

    9 difficult for those who lost their dearest. The others

    10 will be left with only memories."

    11 Q. That is Slavko Dokmanovic?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Go on.

    14 A. Stop. Slavko: "People are recovering from

    15 everything and we hope that Vukovar and its people ..."

    16 Go on.

    17 A. Stop, stop, stop. Slavko: " ... after 50

    18 years and not to let anything like this happen again

    19 anywhere ever." Go on.

    20 Stop. This is the voice of Slavko

    21 Dokmanovic: "It certainly will not be in Vukovar,

    22 because from this day to eternity Vukovar will be

    23 Serbian." Go on.

    24 Stop. Zoran Jevtovic: "And this is shooting

    25 that is going on over there? Pockets?"

  63. 1 Stop, stop. "Oh, fuck, what do these ..."

    2 Slavko.

    3 Stop. "This is the first time I see a man

    4 with his throat cut." Rade Leskovac.

    5 Stop. "Those are theirs. That army doesn't

    6 slaughter like that." Jova Cvetkovic.

    7 Stop, stop, stop. Could you just rewind it a

    8 little bit, if possible? More.

    9 Stop, stop. "And who knows who it is now?"

    10 Slavko Dokmanovic.

    11 Stop, stop. Rade Leskovac: "What's that,

    12 theirs?"

    13 Stop. "Yes, our guys are ..." Jova

    14 Cvetkovic.

    15 Stop, stop. "Each settlement is like this."

    16 Slavko.

    17 Rewind the tape, please. The text isn't

    18 okay. Now.

    19 Stop. Just a bit more. Just rewind it a bit

    20 more, please? Now.

    21 Stop. "What's that, theirs?" That's Rade

    22 Leskovac. And then ... now listen.

    23 "Is she alive?" That is Rade Leskovac.

    24 Q. Once again, please, before Rade Leskovac, who

    25 is speaking before Rade Leskovac?

  64. 1 A. Could you put up the volume, please?

    2 Stop. This is the voice of Slavko

    3 Dokmanovic: "Get the dredge immediately and load."

    4 Q. Go on.

    5 A. Stop. This is Zoran Jevtovic: "All of this

    6 has to be torn down."

    7 Stop, stop, stop. "Torn down? OK, that does

    8 not necessarily mean ..." Slavko Dokmanovic.

    9 Q. That is page 10 of the transcript; you know

    10 that.

    11 A. Stop. This is the voice of Slavko

    12 Dokmanovic: "This is how it was, this man just fixed

    13 it ..."

    14 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: " ... and was

    15 about to open the production and they destroyed it."

    16 Stop. "It will be fixed." Slavko.

    17 Stop. Slavko's voice: "Here, this is what

    18 the police station ..."

    19 Stop. "Here, this is what the police station

    20 in Dalj was like." Slavko Dokmanovic.

    21 Stop. Slavko Dokmanovic: "But these were

    22 all Ustashe houses." Go on.

    23 Stop, stop. "That is the International Red

    24 Cross." Rade Leskovac. Go on.

    25 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "They should not see

  65. 1 these thieves carrying the bags."

    2 Stop, stop. Rade Leskovac: "Well, let's go

    3 and see."

    4 Stop, stop. Leskovac: "Don't!... We don't

    5 want anything." Slavko Dokmanovic: "We don't want

    6 what?"

    7 Q. Stop. Well, wait for the end of the

    8 sentence. Go on.

    9 A. Stop. "Don't!... We don't want anything.

    10 We know what it looks like. What's the point?!"

    11 Slavko Dokmanovic.

    12 Stop. Jova Cvetkovic: "Look at these trees,

    13 how every tree is hit," et cetera. Go on.

    14 Stop. "And what is that there?" That is the

    15 voice of Jova Cvetkovic.

    16 Stop. That was Slavko Dokmanovic.

    17 Stop. "Did they, my mother Jovo, what do you

    18 think?" Slavko Dokmanovic. Go on. Play the tape

    19 until the end.

    20 Stop. "Well, how would they not know me?"

    21 Slavko Dokmanovic. Go on.

    22 Rade Leskovac at the end saying: "Ah, oh."

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just a quick

    25 question: What was the last thing that he said

  66. 1 Mr. Leskovac said at the very end? We didn't catch

    2 that. Perhaps you could rerun?

    3 A. Rewind the tape, please. He's saying "Ah,

    4 oh." You can't really translate that.

    5 MR. FILA: Very substantive statement. That

    6 will be all, Your Honour.

    7 I suggest that the transcript be admitted as

    8 evidence, Defence Exhibit -- I don't know the number.

    9 Transcript.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: D87, and the English

    11 translation, D87A.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 MR. FILA: We have another witness, sir.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I have just one question and

    16 then I'm afraid we have to break at a quarter to

    17 twelve.

    18 Mr. Lazarevic, at one point we saw you next

    19 to Arkan. Did you have the chance of talking to him?

    20 A. Perhaps a few sentences, "How are you? What

    21 are you doing?" when he walked up to us when we were in


    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Did you know why he was

    24 there, the purpose of his presence there at VELEPROMET

    25 in the yard?

  67. 1 A. I don't know because he showed up all of a

    2 sudden. I saw him when he walked in. Neither why nor

    3 what for.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: You didn't ask yourself why

    5 he was there?

    6 A. No.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    8 no objection to the witness being released?

    9 Mr. Lazarevic, thank you so much for coming

    10 here to give evidence in court. You may now be

    11 released. Thank you.

    12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    13 (Witness stood down)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: We will break now, and as I

    15 suggested, we will start again at 3.00. I apologise

    16 for this long break. And from 3.00 to 6.00. Thank

    17 you.

    18 --- Luncheon break at 11.40 a.m.








  68. 1 --- Upon resuming at 3.00 p.m.

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. May I ask

    5 you to make the solemn declaration, please?

    6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    8 truth.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    10 seated.

    11 Mr. Fila?


    13 Examined by Mr. Fila

    14 Q. Mr. Dragisic, did you have a conversation

    15 with the investigator from the Fila Vasic office?

    16 Would you please look at the statement and tell us

    17 whether that is yours?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D88

    19 and the English translation D88A.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Fila,

    21 please. I am having some trouble with this machine.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, you may proceed.

    23 MR. FILA:

    24 Q. Is that your statement?

    25 If there are no objections, I submit it as

  69. 1 evidence for the Defence.

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    3 MR. FILA: D88.

    4 Q. Mr. Dragisic, which university have you

    5 finished, where and when?

    6 A. I completed the university of chemistry (sic)

    7 in Sarajevo.

    8 Q. When?

    9 A. '65, '66.

    10 Q. Where were you employed later and where are

    11 you employed now?

    12 A. For the past 20 years, I've been working in

    13 Kladovo; and before that, I was working in Bosnia.

    14 Q. What are you doing in Kladovo?

    15 A. I am the director of the musical and

    16 elementary school.

    17 Q. So you're a professor, a director of a

    18 school?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Mr. Dragisic, you are under oath. You are

    21 teaching our kids, I hope, honesty and humanity?

    22 A. Yes. In any case, this is my holy or sacred

    23 pedagogic vow.

    24 Q. Everything that I'm asking you, please

    25 respond in the same way that you would be respond when

  70. 1 you are bringing up kids.

    2 A. Of course.

    3 Q. Were you in the delegation of the

    4 Municipality of Kladovo that went to visit the war area

    5 on November 20th, '91?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Why were you in that delegation?

    8 A. There are two main reasons: Because I was

    9 there to visit my former students whose director I was

    10 and, at the same time, to visit the athletes who were

    11 there as reservists because I was then the president of

    12 the soccer club.

    13 Q. The reservists, you mean the people who are

    14 mobilised in the JNA; these were not volunteers.

    15 A. No, no. These were people who were

    16 mobilised.

    17 Q. When did you arrive to Backa Palanka and why,

    18 particularly, to Backa Palanka?

    19 A. We got to Backa Palanka around 8.30, and the

    20 reason was because the President of the Municipal

    21 Assembly of Kladovo, Lazarevic, was there, and he was

    22 also the President of the Municipal Assembly of Backa

    23 Palanka, Novakovic, and he was also a partner in

    24 business, so we got there because -- based on their

    25 friendship and their acquaintance.

  71. 1 Q. Who did you arrive to Backa Palanka with, you

    2 personally, I mean?

    3 A. Personally, I came to Backa Palanka with a

    4 driver. We were driven by driver Jevtovic. I was with

    5 him in Belgrade. We picked up -- we called him Korea,

    6 we called him Korea. I can't remember his last name.

    7 Perhaps it was Tomasevic -- yes, Tomasevic. We call

    8 him Korea, so that's the usual.

    9 Q. So the three of you came together on the 20th

    10 of November in the morning to Backa Palanka?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. In Backa Palanka, did you see Slavko

    13 Dokmanovic?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you see him anywhere in the courtroom?

    18 A. I see him.

    19 Q. Where?

    20 A. In the back.

    21 Q. Point to him.

    22 How long have you known Slavko

    23 Dokmanovic?

    24 A. I know him from Lazarevic's wedding because

    25 he was at the wedding. Both of us were there at the

  72. 1 Lazarevic wedding. That's where we met one another.

    2 MR. FILA: Please play the tape.

    3 Q. Mr. Dragisic, you will see the tape from

    4 Backa Palanka, so tell us when you will be able to see

    5 yourself.

    6 I don't have any signal.

    7 There is a problem, technical problem.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, we will have to

    9 wait a few minutes, about ten minutes, to show the

    10 videotape.

    11 I wonder whether you could ask questions

    12 while we are waiting for the videotape to be repaired?

    13 MR. FILA: Yes, of course. Okay.

    14 Q. You know Slavko Dokmanovic, you said, from

    15 the wedding.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. When you saw him -- then you saw him in Backa

    18 Palanka; right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. For the second time in Backa Palanka?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And the first time in Kladovo at the wedding

    23 and the second time in Backa Palanka. How long did you

    24 stay in Backa Palanka, approximately?

    25 A. We stayed there approximately until twelve

  73. 1 o'clock.

    2 Q. Then you left there. Where did you go?

    3 A. We left towards the direction of Vukovar.

    4 Q. Can you tell us who went and how?

    5 A. It was like this: There were three cars.

    6 There was a Mercedes that Leskovac left and there was a

    7 Lada in which there was Dokmanovic, Cvetkovic, Jevtovic

    8 and Lazarevic, and also there was a driver with me,

    9 Ivaskovic and Tomasevic who we call "Korea" and myself.

    10 Q. When you left Kladovo for Backa-- when you

    11 left Kladovo for Palanka, did you plan to go to

    12 Vukovar. When was the decision made?

    13 A. The decision was made in Backa Palanka while

    14 we talked about all kinds of things, about the events

    15 that were happening in the environs, the circumstances,

    16 the situation, and I was told that Vukovar has been

    17 pretty destroyed, it's been liberated, and that even it

    18 can be seen if we wanted to, of course we wanted to, so

    19 that's where we went for these very reasons that I've

    20 stated.

    21 Q. Just one moment. Would you please repeat

    22 again who was in the car that you were in from when you

    23 were leaving from Backa Palanka in the car that you

    24 were in, who else was in that car?

    25 A. The car, Tomasevic, myself, and, of course,

  74. 1 Ivezic, yes, that's the driver, Ivezic.

    2 Q. When you left Backa Palanka, then at one

    3 point you arrive in Vukovar?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. After a certain period?

    6 A. Yes, yes.

    7 Q. Where did you get to when you entered

    8 Vukovar? Where did you stop off at?

    9 A. We stopped off at a business. As far as I

    10 remember, it was at the entrance to Vukovar, it was a

    11 business organisation on the entrance to Vukovar, it

    12 was on the left side, I think.

    13 Q. Is that perhaps called VELEPROMET?

    14 A. Yes, it's called VELEPROMET. Later I found

    15 out that it was called VELEPROMET.

    16 Q. When you got to VELEPROMET, did you all get

    17 there at the same time?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. With how many vehicles?

    20 A. Three -- no, sorry, we arrived in Vukovar

    21 with two vehicles because in the meantime, there was a

    22 breakdown of the Mercedes so that he moved to the Lada.

    23 Q. Who do you mean by "he"?

    24 A. Leskovac. He moved to the Lada so that we

    25 arrived in Vukovar in two vehicles.

  75. 1 Q. So then you arrived in VELEPROMET and you

    2 were in the yard of VELEPROMET.

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Would you please tell us where you were

    5 standing in the yard in VELEPROMET? We will see this

    6 later in the tape.

    7 A. Mostly I stood in front of the building

    8 itself, close to the entrance, close to the guard

    9 house. I was curious because I'm a pedagogue, an

    10 educator and a chemist as well, I was looking at the

    11 world, I was watching the situation, so most of the

    12 time I spent at the entrance to the gate next to the

    13 guard house.

    14 Q. Thank you. So can we play the tape now? I

    15 hear that it's been fixed.

    16 MR. FILA: The tape from Backa Palanka).

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 MR. FILA:

    19 Q. When you see yourself, please indicate that.

    20 You have the tape?

    21 A. No, I don't have the tape.

    22 MR. FILA: He is not switched on properly.

    23 Please return the tape to the beginning.

    24 Q. Okay. From there. Can you see the tape

    25 now? Run the tape. Yes?

  76. 1 A. This is me. Stop.

    2 Q. Would you be so kind and to look at these

    3 pictures and to tell me whether it is you on these

    4 photographs?

    5 A. Yes, that's me -- oh, I'm looking at the

    6 video monitor.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D89.

    8 A. Yes. That is me.

    9 MR. FILA: Play the tape, please.

    10 Q. Once again, when you see yourself, stop us.

    11 Please run the tape.

    12 A. This is me again.

    13 Q. Who is this?

    14 A. That is Korea and this is the driver who was

    15 driving us.

    16 This is me.

    17 Q. Would you please look at these photographs to

    18 see if you are depicted on them?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D90.

    20 A. Yes. That is me.

    21 MR. FILA: Would you please play the tape

    22 from the moment they enter VELEPROMET?

    23 Q. When you see yourself, if you see yourself,

    24 please point to where you are. Is that VELEPROMET?

    25 A. Yes.

  77. 1 Q. In Vukovar?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Stop.

    4 A. I saw myself a little earlier.

    5 Q. Okay. You can continue.

    6 Would you look at this photograph and tell us

    7 whether that is you? Move the tape a little forward to

    8 14.29. That's good. Is that you on the photograph?

    9 Would you look at the photograph first and then say?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D91.

    11 A. Yes, that's me.

    12 MR. FILA: Run the tape, please.

    13 Stop. Play it back -- rewind a little bit,

    14 please.

    15 Would you please ...

    16 Q. Would you please tell us whether you are on

    17 that photo?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Would you wait until everybody gets the

    20 photos?

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D92.

    22 A. Yes, that is me.

    23 MR. FILA: Would you rewind the tape to 15.05

    24 where the witness was standing so that he can identify

    25 himself.

  78. 1 Q. Where are you?

    2 A. I'm at the entrance and exit gate by the

    3 guard house.


    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. What were you doing at the gate?

    7 A. I was watching. I was watching everything

    8 that was happening. There was a lot of people. People

    9 were going in and out. That's what I was looking at

    10 from professional curiosity.

    11 Q. So that's the gate on the right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did Slavko Dokmanovic pass that way? Did you

    14 see him?

    15 A. Yes, absolutely.

    16 Q. So can we conclude that he didn't pass?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Where do you go from VELEPROMET?

    19 A. From VELEPROMET we go towards the centre of

    20 Vukovar.

    21 Q. How did you go? Which vehicle? Who is in

    22 which vehicle and so forth?

    23 A. Same composition that we arrived in. In the

    24 front is the Lada with Dokmanovic, Lazarevic,

    25 Cvetkovic, Jevtovic, and in the other car, Tomasevic,

  79. 1 Ivezic, the driver, and myself.

    2 Q. Where was Leskovac?

    3 A. Leskovac was with them.

    4 Q. In the Lada Niva?

    5 A. Yes, yes.

    6 Q. Where are you going?

    7 A. We're going towards the centre of Vukovar.

    8 Q. Why are you only leaving just then? Were you

    9 waiting for somebody?

    10 A. Yes, we were waiting for Dokmanovic. He had

    11 some obligations there so we waited until he finished

    12 with those obligations and then he joined us and went

    13 with us.

    14 Q. Where did he have those obligations

    15 physically?

    16 A. Physically in the office, on the premises

    17 which were very close to the gate.

    18 Q. Is there only one entrance door to there?

    19 A. Yes. It's a ground floor, one-storey

    20 building with one entrance.

    21 Q. So you waited for him in order to go towards

    22 the centre of town?

    23 A. Yes, yes.

    24 Q. Then you go to the centre of the town?

    25 A. Correct.

  80. 1 Q. Did you stay when you came to the centre of

    2 the town, did you leave the car?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Would you recognise your voice?

    5 A. Yes, of course. Why not?

    6 MR. FILA: Would you please play the tape so

    7 we can hear his voice?

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 Rewind the tape, please.

    10 Q. Is that you?

    11 A. A bit more. Yes, I can recognise myself

    12 there, yes.

    13 Q. Then ...

    14 A. Stop, stop. That's me. That's me, yes.

    15 Q. All right. Go on. But did you manage to

    16 hear your voice?

    17 A. No, I didn't.

    18 Q. All right. But you recognised your face?

    19 A. Oh, absolutely. That's me.

    20 Q. Now you've come to the centre of town.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And you stayed there for a certain period of

    23 time and then you set off for some other place out of

    24 the centre of town?

    25 A. Yes.

  81. 1 Q. Where did you go?

    2 A. We started moving in the direction of Kladovo

    3 where we came from.

    4 Q. In the direction of Kladovo. That's far

    5 away, you know. Before that, you went in another

    6 direction, didn't you?

    7 A. Oh, yes, yes. The same place that we came

    8 from, Backa Palanka, the direction of Backa Palanka,

    9 but we stopped at a house where Cvetkovic was staying,

    10 we all stopped there, the same group of people, the

    11 same way. We all wanted to have a glass of homemade

    12 brandy and that was it.

    13 Q. When you were leaving the centre of

    14 Vukovar --

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. -- before you reached Sidski Banovci where

    17 Cvetkovic was, did you stop somewhere in the meantime

    18 and for how long?

    19 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, two,

    20 because we encountered a column of those buses and

    21 vehicles with civilians. There were some problems

    22 there because we tried to overtake them and they

    23 stopped them and then we were stopped again by the

    24 army. At the same time, they had some kind of regime

    25 of movement of their own. We reacted a bit to that,

  82. 1 but they were a bit more energetic, they even pointed

    2 their arms at us saying that we would have to observe

    3 certain standards, certain rules. We got out there, we

    4 all smoked a cigarette -- we all smoked cigarettes

    5 respectively, then Cvetkovic got out and the whole

    6 thing was pacified --

    7 Q. Do you know what the name of this place was?

    8 A. No, it was the first time I was there ever.

    9 I have no idea.

    10 Q. Let me ask you something else. When you set

    11 out from Vukovar, when you start the first time and

    12 then the second time and then later, you arrived at the

    13 town where Jovan Cvetkovic was staying, did you make

    14 any detours from that road?

    15 A. No, no.

    16 Q. Were you driving behind the Lada Niva all the

    17 time?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. The one in which Dokmanovic, Jovan, and these

    20 other people were?

    21 A. Yes, yes, yes.

    22 Q. And that remained identical until you arrived

    23 in Banovci?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. This Lada Niva, did it manage to turn

  83. 1 somewhere else to get out of your sight?

    2 A. No, no, no, no. They were in front of us all

    3 the time.

    4 Q. Would you see if they turned somewhere else?

    5 A. Oh, definitely, yes.

    6 Q. So you went wherever they went?

    7 A. Yes, we went wherever they went.

    8 Q. So it was eight of you, if I'm not mistaken,

    9 and together you arrived in Sidski Banovci?

    10 A. Yes, exactly, some kind of village, I don't

    11 know. Probably Sidski Banovci.

    12 Q. Where Jovan Cvetkovic was?

    13 A. That's right, where Jovan Cvetkovic was.

    14 Q. Can you say approximately what time it was

    15 when you stopped for the second time when they were

    16 pointing a rifle at you and ...

    17 A. This was at dusk. The sun was setting, it

    18 was getting dark. I think it was about 5.00 p.m., it

    19 was almost dark because it was even difficult to

    20 recognise people's faces. You could only discern

    21 silhouettes.

    22 Q. At that point, when you got out of the car,

    23 when the rifle was pointed at you, did you see Slavko

    24 Dokmanovic?

    25 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

  84. 1 Q. Including Slavko Dokmanovic?

    2 A. Yes, yes, yes. We were all there together,

    3 the entire group, we were all there.

    4 Q. Okay. And then you came to this place where

    5 Cvetkovic was staying?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What time and was that the last place where

    8 you saw Slavko Dokmanovic? At what time was that?

    9 A. I don't know what time it was. I know that

    10 it was almost dark, it was dusk at any rate, and then

    11 we stayed there with Cvetkovic, everybody had a drink,

    12 whatever was available, we sat there, we talked for a

    13 while, and at the same time that is when we parted with

    14 them.

    15 Q. The videotape that I play to you now, do you

    16 have a copy?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who gave it to you and when?

    19 A. Lazarevic gave it to me. I can't remember

    20 when he gave it to me.

    21 Q. What year?

    22 A. '91, '91, but I don't know the exact time

    23 because there was no reason for me to remember the

    24 exact time because I got it as a souvenir.

    25 Q. And you have this tape until the present day?

  85. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. If the court required that tape, you could

    3 give it to them?

    4 A. Yes, I have it as a souvenir, as a valuable

    5 memento.

    6 Q. And you could give it to them?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And now I want to complete this once again.

    9 I told you that you have to speak the truth because of

    10 your oath and also I mentioned that professionally you

    11 were a teacher, that you were an educator who teaches

    12 children. So this is your -- can you swear saying that

    13 you saw Slavko Dokmanovic before your eyes when you

    14 left Vukovar and until you reached Sidski Banovci?

    15 A. That's right.

    16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone was

    17 not on for the last comments.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, did you finish?

    19 MR. FILA: I have completed. Thank you, Your

    20 Honour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?

    22 Cross-examined by Mr. Williamson.

    23 Q. Mr. Dragisic, whose idea was it to go to

    24 Eastern Slavonia from Kladovo on the 20th of November?

    25 A. The President of the Municipal Assembly,

  86. 1 Lazarevic.

    2 Q. And did he approach you and ask you if you

    3 wanted to accompany him, or how did it come about that

    4 you joined the group?

    5 A. He asked me.

    6 Q. Where were these people that you referred to

    7 as your former students and athletes, where were they

    8 serving in Eastern Slavonia; do you know?

    9 A. No, I didn't know their locations, these

    10 villages in the immediate vicinity are not that nearby.

    11 Q. Now, you indicated that when you were in

    12 Backa Palanka the decision was taken to go to Vukovar;

    13 is that correct?

    14 A. No, we agreed -- no, it wasn't a decision

    15 that was reached, we simply accommodated our views

    16 through a free discussion. This was a voluntary

    17 agreement on the part of all of us. It wasn't any kind

    18 of decision that was being passed, I mean, for some

    19 special reason.

    20 Q. I'm not trying to indicate that someone

    21 ordered you to go there. I'm saying that among all of

    22 you, you discussed this and you reached a decision --

    23 A. Yes, yes, yes.

    24 Q. -- to go to Vukovar?

    25 A. Yes.

  87. 1 Q. If your purpose had originally been to go and

    2 visit students and athletes, why did you make the

    3 change and decide to go to Vukovar instead?

    4 A. Because I thought that I would see my

    5 students, pupils, athletes, the next day, but I thought

    6 that this was a unique opportunity to see a town that

    7 was devastated. I was really interested in seeing

    8 this. So this was the motive that prevailed since I

    9 had been given this opportunity.

    10 Q. And what was the route that your group took

    11 from Backa Palanka to Vukovar?

    12 A. That is the road between Backa Palanka and

    13 Vukovar.

    14 Q. I know you're not from the Vukovar area and

    15 you have indicated that you weren't familiar with

    16 particular names of towns and villages. Do you recall

    17 any of the towns and villages that you passed through

    18 on the way there?

    19 A. No, no, no. It was the first time I was

    20 travelling in those parts.

    21 Q. Was it the same route going there as the

    22 route that you returned on?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, you've said that there were three cars

    25 that started out as you left from Backa Palanka to go

  88. 1 to Vukovar. What was the order of the cars? Who was

    2 first, who was second, who was third leaving from Backa

    3 Palanka?

    4 A. As far as I can remember, first there was the

    5 Mercedes, then the Lada, and then our car -- rather,

    6 the car that I was in.

    7 Q. And you said that Mr. Leskovac's car had a

    8 flat tyre somewhere along the route; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And do you remember where this was?

    11 A. No. I remember that a house was there,

    12 perhaps it was the beginning of some settlement, but

    13 there were some houses, as far as I can recall.

    14 Q. Was it in the same place where Mr. Cvetkovic

    15 was staying, in Sidski Banovci?

    16 A. No. I can't remember.

    17 Q. And when his car broke down, did he just

    18 immediately get into the car, in the Lada, and you

    19 continued on your way, or were all of you delayed for

    20 some time because of his breakdown?

    21 A. Very briefly, we just re-packed all of this,

    22 Leskovac went and joined them and we continued.

    23 Q. So it didn't amount to much of a delay then?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. Now, this was your first time ever to be in

  89. 1 Vukovar, you said?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And do you recall about what time it was when

    4 you arrived at VELEPROMET?

    5 A. Around noon or perhaps around 1.00, sometime

    6 after 1.00, 1300 hours and a few minutes.

    7 Q. What happened after you arrived? What did

    8 you do, if you can just describe for us what happened

    9 concerning you after your arrival until the time that

    10 you left?

    11 A. We didn't do anything. We were just

    12 watching.

    13 Q. And you were just talking to people that were

    14 in the yard?

    15 A. To some of them, yes.

    16 Q. Now, earlier the Defence showed you a

    17 photograph which was taken at 14.29 and was marked as

    18 Exhibit D91. If this could be shown to the witness

    19 again, please?

    20 A. Right. All right.

    21 Q. And in this photograph, you are standing next

    22 to Arkan, are you not?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Were you able to ascertain what his purpose

    25 was for being there on the 20th of November?

  90. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. As a director of an elementary school, it

    3 didn't concern you in any way to pose for photographs

    4 with Arkan?

    5 A. No.

    6 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. I don't

    7 understand in what context is this Arkan being

    8 mentioned? Does the Prosecutor have some objections

    9 against him? Has this person been indicted? I don't

    10 know why people wouldn't want to have their pictures taken

    11 with him? Has he been indicted? Why doesn't the

    12 Prosecutor tell us. I really have no idea about your

    13 sealed indictments, but until he is indicted in public,

    14 you cannot qualify a certain person as a person with

    15 whom one should not keep company. Sorry.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson, could you

    17 specify the sense of your question.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: That was my follow-up

    19 question, Your Honour.

    20 Q. But even in 1991, Mr. Arkan had somewhat of a

    21 notorious reputation as a criminal, did he not?

    22 Perhaps not as a war criminal but as one with a

    23 criminal past in Yugoslavia?

    24 A. I know Arkan as a sports fan of the Svezda

    25 club, and that's why it was a pleasure for me to have a

  91. 1 picture taken with him because he is a major Svezda fan

    2 and I am a sportsman myself. I wasn't interested in

    3 anything else and I really didn't know about it.

    4 Q. You indicated that there was this meeting

    5 that was taking place at VELEPROMET that all of these

    6 people went into the building. Were you aware of what

    7 this meeting was about that was inside?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. And after the conclusion of the meeting when

    10 Mr. Dokmanovic came out, there was no discussion as to

    11 what had taken place inside?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. How did it come about that your group

    14 eventually left from VELEPROMET?

    15 A. Because we wanted to see the centre, the

    16 centre of town.

    17 Q. And who suggested that you all go to the

    18 centre?

    19 A. We wanted to.

    20 Q. So again this was just a joint decision made

    21 among everyone talking among yourselves?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And who went to the town centre? Who was

    24 with you when you were there?

    25 A. The same group that came in there.

  92. 1 Q. And when you left from the centre, where did

    2 you go?

    3 A. Ah, you mean when we left the centre. Sorry,

    4 sorry. I didn't understand your question. When we

    5 left what?

    6 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. This was a follow-up

    7 question beyond that. I understood that you were in

    8 the centre with the same group. I'm now asking when

    9 you left the centre, where did you go?

    10 A. We set out in the direction of Backa

    11 Palanka -- or, rather, further on, to Kladovo.

    12 Q. And did you return on the same route that you

    13 had come in by?

    14 A. Same.

    15 Q. Now, in the statement that you gave and which

    16 has been entered as Defence Exhibit 88, you indicate

    17 that you left -- after watching the film, you said the

    18 film shows us leaving Vukovar at 15.30 by the same road

    19 by which we came. Is that your recollection?

    20 A. Yes, yes.

    21 Q. If we could show the tape from 15.30 on, if

    22 you can just look at it briefly with us?

    23 And as you're looking at the tape, if you

    24 could indicate to us the point at which you're leaving

    25 Vukovar?

  93. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 A. We left to the --

    3 Q. I'm sorry. I did not receive a translation.

    4 Could you repeat that, please, Mr. Dragisic?

    5 A. According to the recording, to the best of my

    6 recollection, these were the last -- the last scenes

    7 when we were leaving Vukovar and moving towards Backa

    8 Palanka.

    9 Q. And is that -- you're saying that this part,

    10 if we can just play it back then perhaps from 15.36 on,

    11 and if you can indicate to us where you believe you're

    12 leaving Vukovar on that tape?

    13 A. I don't know exactly. I really don't know

    14 exactly. To the best of my recollection, you know,

    15 because I don't know the details, and I didn't really

    16 pay much attention to this because I didn't have any

    17 reason to pay attention to that, so I don't really know

    18 whether it was ten minutes more or five minutes more or

    19 afterwards, but this is more or less the kind of

    20 information that I can give, that that is when we're

    21 leaving town.

    22 Q. I'm not trying in any way to trip you up,

    23 Mr. Dragisic, I'm just trying to clarify at what point

    24 you're referring to in your statement where it shows

    25 you leaving, and I understand that these times are

  94. 1 approximate. I'm not in any way trying to imply this

    2 has to be the exact time. I'm just asking at what

    3 point on this tape is it your belief that you left from

    4 Vukovar?

    5 A. I can't say that because I don't remember.

    6 Sometime ... I don't know. Forty past 15 or around

    7 1600 hours, I really don't know.

    8 Q. These buses we have just seen in this very

    9 last clip which is indicated at 1542, was that in

    10 Vukovar?

    11 A. I think that was out of Vukovar, as far as I

    12 can remember. Yes, yes, it was out of Vukovar at any

    13 rate, yes.

    14 Q. We see houses there. Is it in another

    15 village or where was it? Again without -- I know you

    16 can't say the name of a particular place.

    17 A. As long as there were houses, there must have

    18 been -- it must have been a village.

    19 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. You

    20 cannot see houses anywhere. Houses is plural. On this

    21 recording, we see one house, and that is the singular

    22 here and anywhere else in the world. So one can see

    23 one house, the roof of one house, and that is the right

    24 way of phrasing this question.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Williamson,

  95. 1 could you please be so kind as to rephrase your

    2 question?


    4 Q. Where is this located, to the best of your

    5 knowledge? Is it in a village? Is it in between

    6 villages? Is it in between towns? Is it a single

    7 house? Were there other houses around?

    8 A. I don't know, and I cannot give an accurate,

    9 concrete answer. I do not remember.

    10 Q. Now, I believe you've testified during

    11 examination-in-chief that from the time you left the

    12 centre of Vukovar until you stopped for the buses, that

    13 you and the group of cars made no turns, no stops, no

    14 changes in direction at all; is that correct?

    15 A. We didn't change direction, but we did stop

    16 by chance and because of the need, because we were

    17 stopped.

    18 Q. Where did you stop between the centre of town

    19 and these buses, or did I misunderstand you? Was this

    20 the first stop, was for the buses, or was there another

    21 stop in between?

    22 A. Yes, because of the buses.

    23 Q. So again, just to be absolutely clear, from

    24 the time you left the centre of Vukovar until you

    25 stopped for the buses, there were no other stops,

  96. 1 turns, changes in direction; correct?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. How long were you all stopped for the buses?

    4 A. Not long. Very briefly.

    5 Q. Did you get out of the car there?

    6 A. We didn't all. Some came out, but really, we

    7 didn't -- we were there next to one another and we

    8 waited and then very shortly after that, we left. We

    9 continued on further.

    10 Q. So some of the people got out, but you

    11 yourself did not; is that correct?

    12 A. I don't remember. We were car-to-car, next

    13 car -- some people maybe came out. We were

    14 all together and we maybe commented on it and then

    15 later we went on our way.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions,

    17 Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    19 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.

    20 Q. When you respond to questions whether you

    21 went out of the car here or there, do you remember

    22 today, after seven years from that event?

    23 A. Well, of course in any case, I can remember,

    24 some details I remember based on what I have just seen,

    25 but I probably wouldn't remember a lot.

  97. 1 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. That is

    2 all.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    4 no objection to the witness being released?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dragisic, thank you so

    7 much for giving evidence in court. You may be released

    8 now.

    9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    10 (Witness stood down)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Petrovic, may I ask you

    12 who is coming next?

    13 MR. PETROVIC: The next witness is called

    14 Boris Ivaskovic.

    15 (Witness entered court)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Ivaskovic, may I ask you

    17 to make the solemn declaration, please, read out the

    18 solemn declaration?

    19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    21 truth.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    23 seated.

    24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.


  98. 1 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

    2 Q. Mr. Ivaskovic, on December 8th, '97, did you

    3 give a statement to the investigator in the office of

    4 Fila to investigator Vasic? Would you please look at

    5 this statement, tell us whether that is your statement

    6 and whether that is your signature?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: Statement is marked D93 and

    8 the English translation D93A.


    10 Q. The English translation, would you look at

    11 the second part, please, that's where the Serbian

    12 language statement is.

    13 A. Yes. That is the statement.

    14 Q. That's your statement?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MR. PETROVIC: Unless there are objections, I

    17 move that this be admitted into evidence as D93.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection,

    19 Mr. Williamson?

    20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Sorry, Your Honour, no

    21 objection.

    22 MR. PETROVIC:

    23 Q. Mr. Ivaskovic, did you finish the business

    24 school in Belgrade as well as the faculty of philosophy

    25 in Belgrade?

  99. 1 A. Yes. The faculty of theology and the

    2 business school.

    3 Q. Where were you employed during your career?

    4 A. For five years, I worked as a sales

    5 representative in a tourist organisation of Djerdap.

    6 After that I worked in radio until the present time.

    7 Q. On November 20th, '91, were you a member of

    8 the delegation of the assembly of Kladovo, municipality

    9 of Kladovo, which visited the war zone?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. On November 20th, '91, did you see Slavko

    12 Dokmanovic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please play the

    15 tape, D2, Defence evidence, from the beginning,

    16 please?

    17 Q. Would you please look at the tape and

    18 indicate when you see yourself?

    19 A. Yes. This is me.

    20 MR. PETROVIC: The usher please show this

    21 photograph to the witness so that he can tell us

    22 whether he is depicted in that photograph?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D94.

    24 A. Yes, this is me on the photograph and driver

    25 Rade Ivezic.

  100. 1 Q. Would you please run the tape? When you see

    2 Slavko Dokmanovic, would you please indicate that for

    3 us?

    4 (Videotape played)

    5 Q. When you notice Dokmanovic, please indicate

    6 that to us.

    7 A. This is Mr. Dokmanovic.

    8 Q. How long have you known Mr. Dokmanovic?

    9 A. I've known -- I saw him earlier when the

    10 white fleet sailed between Kladovo, Belgrade, and

    11 Vukovar. I know that he lived in Vukovar. Later, I

    12 found out that he was the President of the Municipality

    13 of Vukovar.

    14 MR. PETROVIC: Run the tape, please. Run the

    15 tape, please.

    16 (Videotape played)

    17 Q. When you see yourself again, please indicate

    18 that to us.

    19 A. This is me on the tape.

    20 MR. PETROVIC: At this time, I would like the

    21 usher to show the photograph to the witness.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked D95.

    23 A. Yes, that's me on the photograph.

    24 MR. PETROVIC:

    25 Q. Would you please look at another document?

  101. 1 Would you please show this to the witness?

    2 And to tell us what this document is.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D96.


    5 Q. Would you please tell us what this is about?

    6 A. These are travel orders that I received to

    7 travel to visit the reservists as a journalist. This

    8 is a usual thing, to get a travel order.

    9 MR. PETROVIC: Would you, please, if there

    10 are no objections from the Prosecution, I would like

    11 the evidence -- the exhibits from 94 to 96 be accepted

    12 into the evidence.

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, Your Honour.

    14 MR. PETROVIC:

    15 Q. Before I move to the next question, could you

    16 please tell us what's the meaning of a travel order,

    17 when is it issued and so on?

    18 A. A travel order means that somebody is being

    19 sent on an official trip, he has a business task which

    20 is written in the travel orders, and then also to make

    21 a report from the war zone. This is a usual thing and

    22 it's usually issued a few days before the trip.

    23 Q. On that day, you moved -- you went from

    24 Kladovo to Backa Palanka. Why?

    25 A. The agreement was to meet with our team that

  102. 1 went to the war zone in Backa Palanka.

    2 Q. How long were you in Backa Palanka?

    3 A. The group that I was with was in Backa

    4 Palanka until 12.00.

    5 Q. Where did you go from Palanka?

    6 A. From Palanka, we went towards Bogojevo Most

    7 and then we crossed into Dalj.

    8 Q. When was the last time on that day that you

    9 saw Slavko Dokmanovic?

    10 A. Somewhere around twelve o'clock.

    11 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no more

    12 questions.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Just a few questions, Your

    15 Honour.

    16 Cross-examined by.

    17 Q. Again, Mr. Ivaskovic, what was your reason

    18 going to the Vukovar region on the 20th of November,

    19 1991?

    20 A. In my travel orders, it states that I went as

    21 a journalist in order to report from that region

    22 because we had our reservists from our area stationed

    23 there.

    24 Q. And who had asked you to go there?

    25 A. My newsroom because there were reservists

  103. 1 from our municipality, so the newsroom gave me a job as

    2 a journalist, gave me a task, assignment.

    3 Q. And who did you travel with from Kladovo to

    4 Backa Palanka?

    5 A. In the car that I was in, it was a green

    6 Peugeot, there was driver Radoslav Matevic, Radisav

    7 Simic, Viselav Maletic, and myself.

    8 Q. Approximately what time did you leave Kladovo

    9 and when did you arrive in Backa Palanka?

    10 A. I only remember that we left in the early

    11 morning hours. I can't exactly state what was our

    12 departure time, but this was early morning hours. In

    13 Backa Palanka, we got there a little before 9.00.

    14 Q. And you've indicated that at around noon the

    15 group split up and that you went across the Bogojevo

    16 Bridge to Erdut and the other group went on to

    17 Vukovar. Who made the decision as to who would go

    18 where?

    19 A. We didn't go through over the Vukovar but

    20 over the Bogojevo Bridge toward Erdut and Dalj, we went

    21 to that region in order to visit, as I said earlier,

    22 the reservists, and in order to distribute to them what

    23 their families sent us. There were sweaters,

    24 cigarettes, a little bit of food, things like that.

    25 Q. I understand that you went to Erdut and in

  104. 1 that direction, but I believe you testified that the

    2 other group, including Mr. Dokmanovic, went in another

    3 direction, they went off to Vukovar; is that correct?

    4 A. They left in a different direction. I didn't

    5 know where they were going.

    6 Q. Was there any discussion among the people as

    7 to who would go to Erdut and who would go with

    8 Mr. Dokmanovic's group in the direction of wherever

    9 they went?

    10 A. We were only told that we are going towards

    11 Vukovar, and as a journalist, I recorded a few

    12 interesting people for me.

    13 MR. PETROVIC: Whether towards Vukovar, where

    14 were you going? Maybe this was a slip of the tongue of

    15 the witness. You said you went towards Vukovar.

    16 A. No, we went towards Dalj and Erdut, Dalj and

    17 Erdut.


    19 Q. And after you left from Backa Palanka, you

    20 did not see Mr. Dokmanovic again at any point that day;

    21 correct?

    22 A. No, I didn't see him at all. We were in Dalj

    23 and Trpinja. At Trpinja, we spent the night there, we

    24 slept there, and the next day we came back. I didn't

    25 see him any more.

  105. 1 Q. You did not see him in Trpinja that night?

    2 A. No. No, I didn't see him.

    3 Q. And did you receive a copy of the videotape

    4 which has been shown in court previously marked as

    5 Defence Exhibit 2, the one that you have viewed?

    6 A. Yes, I watched that tape.

    7 Q. And did you receive a copy of that tape in

    8 1991?

    9 A. No, I didn't get a copy of that videotape

    10 because my colleague, Dr. Zoran Jevtovic, my director,

    11 had a copy, so I didn't really need one. I saw it

    12 once, so I didn't really need to have it.

    13 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Jevtovic making copies

    14 of the tape at that time and distributing them to some

    15 of the people who had participated in the trip?

    16 A. Yes. That was no secret. Anybody who got it

    17 and who saw it could make themselves a copy. It was no

    18 problem.

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no

    20 further questions.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic.

    22 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no

    23 additional questions.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume the parties will not

    25 object to the witness being released? Thank you, 1 Mr. Ivaskovic, for coming here. You may be released

    2 now.

    3 And we will take a 20-minute break now.

    4 --- Recess taken at 4.20 p.m.

    5 --- Resumed at 4.45 p.m.

    6 (The witness entered court)

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please make the

    8 solemn declaration?

    9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    11 truth.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    13 seated. Mr. Petrovic?


    15 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

    16 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, on 8th of December, '97, did

    17 you give a statement to the investigator for the

    18 Defence? Is that this statement? Would you please

    19 look, if this is your signature on the statement?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: Statement is marked D97,

    21 English translation D97A.

    22 MR. PETROVIC:

    23 Q. Is that your statement? Would you please

    24 look at the document, look on the back? That's the

    25 English translation. Is that your signature underneath

  106. 1 the statement?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. PETROVIC: I move, unless there are

    4 objections, that this be admitted as evidence for the

    5 Defence, number 97, English translation 97A.

    6 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.


    8 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, did you finish technical

    9 college?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Where were you employed?

    12 A. On the Djerdap hydroelectric power station.

    13 Q. You were a member of the delegation of the

    14 Municipality of Kladovo which visited the war zone on

    15 November 20th, '91?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Would you please show the witness the tape

    18 and around 9.00, nine and eight minutes, and then in

    19 order not to take up time, to move then to 10.39.

    20 Okay. Just 9.00. It's okay.

    21 When you see yourself, please indicate that

    22 to us.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 A. This is me.

    25 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please show the

  107. 1 witness this photograph so that the witness can

    2 identify it?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked D98.

    4 A. Yes, that is me.

    5 MR. PETROVIC: Would you please play the tape

    6 further?

    7 Q. And indicate when you see Slavko Dokmanovic

    8 on the tape and, of course, when you see yourself.

    9 A. This is me. This is Slavko.

    10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You can stop the

    11 tape.

    12 When were you in Backa Palanka? On what day?

    13 A. The 20th of November.

    14 Q. Yes, on the 20th of November. Until when

    15 were you in Backa Palanka?

    16 A. Until 12.00. We went in the direction of

    17 Erdut over the Bogojevo Bridge.

    18 Q. At twelve o'clock, did you see Mr. Dokmanovic

    19 for the last time?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. I have no further

    22 questions.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?

    24 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi

    25 Q. Mr. Milivojevic, you said just as your last

  108. 1 statement that you left Backa Palanka around midday on

    2 20th November, 1991, in the direction of Erdut; is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. Yes. Towards -- in the direction of the

    5 bridge near Bogojevo, towards Erdut. That's what I

    6 said.

    7 Q. Who was with you?

    8 A. I was in the vehicle with Dule Niculovic, the

    9 driver, and Dimitrje Vuvucic (phoen).

    10 Q. Was there another car besides the car you

    11 were sitting in?

    12 A. Yes. In that direction, yes, there was

    13 another vehicle.

    14 Q. Do you remember who were the passengers of

    15 that vehicle?

    16 A. I really couldn't say.

    17 Q. Where did you spend the night that day?

    18 A. The 20th? 20th?

    19 Q. Yes.

    20 A. In Trpinja.

    21 Q. Did you see Mr. Dokmanovic in Trpinja that

    22 night?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. So it was the last time you saw

    25 Mr. Dokmanovic when you left him in Backa Palanka; is 1 that correct?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your

    4 Honour.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?

    6 MR. PETROVIC: No more. Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I think there is

    8 no objection to the witness being released.

    9 Thank you for coming here to give evidence in

    10 court. You may be released.

    11 (Witness stands down)

    12 MR. PETROVIC: I would like to inform the

    13 court and the Prosecution that for the next two

    14 witnesses, we don't have written statements, but the

    15 investigator of the Prosecution spoke with both of the

    16 witnesses in Belgrade during the month of February.

    17 That is why we brought them, for that reason.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So the first one

    19 is Mr. Maletic.

    20 MR. PETROVIC: Yes, Maletic is the next

    21 witness.

    22 (The witness entered court)

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please stand and

    24 make the solemn declaration?

    25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

  109. 1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    2 truth.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?


    5 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

    6 Q. Mr. Maletic, would you please tell us your

    7 full name and last name and the name of your father?

    8 A. I am Maletic Viselav, father Ratibor, from

    9 Kladovo.

    10 Q. When were you born?

    11 A. I was born on the 10th of April in 1945 in

    12 Kladovo.

    13 Q. Did you finish law school in Belgrade?

    14 A. Yes, I finished law school in 1970 in

    15 Belgrade.

    16 Q. What about your work career?

    17 A. 1971, I started in the Municipal Court in

    18 Kladovo until '73 when, after passing the bar exam, I

    19 was elected as a judge in the Municipal Court where I

    20 was a judge until '87. Then, as I am also from '78 up

    21 to the present time, the Public Prosecutor.

    22 Q. Were you a member of the delegation of the

    23 municipality which visited on November 20th, '91, that

    24 region?

    25 A. Yes, I was a member of that delegation from

  110. 1 Kladovo which, on that day, left towards Dalj in order

    2 to visit our reservists.

    3 MR. PETROVIC: Since it's not in the record

    4 that the witness is a Prosecutor in Kladovo -- it does

    5 state that he's a Prosecutor but he is actually working

    6 as a Prosecutor in Kladovo.

    7 Q. So are you the Public Prosecutor in Kladovo?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. On the 20th of November, when did you leave

    10 from Kladovo, if you left from Kladovo?

    11 A. We left from Kladovo early in the morning in

    12 a passenger vehicle. There were four of us in the

    13 vehicle besides the driver. There was Simic Radisav,

    14 then myself, Rade Matovic was the driver, and the

    15 journalists, I can't remember the names at this moment.

    16 Q. When did you get to Backa Palanka?

    17 A. We got to Backa Palanka around 8.00, 8.30 in

    18 the morning.

    19 MR. PETROVIC: Please play the tape for the

    20 witness now.

    21 Q. If you see yourself on the tape, would you

    22 please indicate that to us?

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 A. Here.

    25 Q. That's you at nine o'clock and eight minutes?

  111. 1 A. Yes, nine o'clock and eight minutes.

    2 MR. PETROVIC: Please play the tape further.

    3 Q. Next segment of the tape, point to yourself

    4 and to Slavko Dokmanovic. Show us Slavko Dokmanovic

    5 and yourself.

    6 A. No, we haven't appeared yet.

    7 Q. Stop the tape, please. Is that you in the

    8 photograph?

    9 A. Yes, it's me on the photograph.

    10 MR. PETROVIC: Please show the witness the

    11 photograph.

    12 A. I am on the photograph.

    13 Q. Take a look at the photograph and then please

    14 say whether it's you on the photograph.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked D99.

    16 A. Yes, I'm on that photograph.

    17 MR. PETROVIC: I would like to have it

    18 admitted into evidence as Defence Exhibit 99.

    19 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.

    20 MR. PETROVIC: Please continue playing the

    21 tape.

    22 Q. If you see Slavko Dokmanovic, please indicate

    23 him.

    24 A. This is Slavko.

    25 Q. Thank you. That will do as far as the tape

  112. 1 is concerned. Since when have you known Slavko

    2 Dokmanovic?

    3 A. That is when I first met him. That is when I

    4 first met him.

    5 Q. I'm sorry. What were you saying?

    6 A. That was the first time we met. We were

    7 introduced there in the building of the municipal

    8 assembly.

    9 Q. Until when were you in this room in the

    10 Municipality of Backa Palanka?

    11 A. We were in that room until around 12.00.

    12 Q. And then where did you go?

    13 A. As we got out, we went to -- I mean I -- I

    14 took this vehicle and went with Simic towards Dalj and

    15 the truck did too, and the other group went to Vukovar.

    16 Q. When was the last time that you saw Slavko

    17 Dokmanovic on that day?

    18 A. Sometime after 12.00, when we set out for

    19 Dalj. After that, we didn't see each other.

    20 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further

    21 questions.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi

    24 Q. Mr. Maletic, could you please look back to

    25 the picture we just were shown, D99, please? Can you

  113. 1 be shown that picture? You have it in front of you, I

    2 see.

    3 Do you recognise, Mr. Maletic, the other

    4 gentleman on that picture? Do you know this person?

    5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand this

    6 question. Are you talking about the photograph I have

    7 in front of me?

    8 Q. Yes.

    9 A. I know this is Ljuba Tomic, Lieutenant

    10 Colonel.

    11 Q. And he's a member of the JNA?

    12 A. I know him from Kladovo. We've known each

    13 other since we were children. And that was the first

    14 time we met. He was a member of the JNA.

    15 Q. Can you tell us today what you were

    16 discussing with him? You seem to be quite sort of deep

    17 into a discussion showing -- maybe you had some papers

    18 in front of the two of you. Can you tell us what you

    19 were discussing with him?

    20 A. As I mentioned to you, we have been friends

    21 since childhood. We've known each other since then and

    22 we hadn't seen each other for quite some time. So we

    23 mostly discussed our families and general affairs;

    24 nothing special, nothing specific. We didn't look at

    25 any papers. I mean, not in any special way. We were

  114. 1 sitting at the table and we were probably looking at

    2 some kind of pictures, photographs.

    3 Q. Do you know what he was doing at that meeting

    4 or in general in that area? Do you know his

    5 assignment?

    6 A. We had an agreement to meet with our vehicles

    7 in Backa Palanka so that we could get the right papers

    8 and guides to take us further onto the front line. And

    9 sometime after we arrived, Ljuba Tomic arrived.

    10 Whether he was one of the people who provided these

    11 papers for us and made the front line accessible to us,

    12 I really don't know about that.

    13 Q. You said you were provided with a guide who

    14 would lead you through the area. Do you mean a guide

    15 who would join you in your car? Was there such a

    16 person who guided you around when you continued your

    17 way?

    18 A. I do not remember. No one joined us in our

    19 vehicle. It was all of us who were there originally

    20 and then the truck went with us too. If there was

    21 someone in the truck; that, I do not know. I think

    22 that we were simply told what is the route that we were

    23 supposed to take and where we were supposed to report

    24 because after Dalj, somebody got in touch with us and

    25 then we went on with the truck and these packages so

  115. 1 that we would distribute them. I mean these parcels.

    2 Q. You said that you knew Mr. Tomic from

    3 childhood. Do you know whether he came with you that

    4 day or was he in that area prior to the day you met

    5 with him?

    6 A. I didn't understand the beginning of your

    7 question. Please repeat it.

    8 Q. You said earlier that you knew Mr. Tomic from

    9 childhood; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And he came from Kladovo as well; is that

    12 correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. The day we are talking about, 20th of

    15 November, 1991, do you have the impression that

    16 Mr. Tomic came from Kladovo like you, the same day, or

    17 do you have the impression that he was there for quite

    18 some time?

    19 A. As far as I know, he was not with us that

    20 day. He certainly didn't leave Kladovo that day

    21 because we were the only ones who left Kladovo that day

    22 in that vehicle and then there was the truck too and

    23 the rest of the delegation joined us in Backa Palanka

    24 itself.

    25 Q. My question was whether Mr. Tomic arrived

  116. 1 with you basically, like you for one day, or are you

    2 aware whether he was already there, maybe for a month

    3 prior to meeting you incidentally, as it may be, during

    4 that meeting?

    5 A. I don't know how long he was there or whether

    6 he was there.

    7 Q. Where did he go, Mr. Tomic, after that

    8 meeting; do you know?

    9 A. I don't know that either, where he went. As

    10 I said, we went towards Dalj.

    11 Q. Mr. Tomic, is he a career officer or a

    12 reservist; could you tell us more about his status

    13 within the JNA?

    14 A. He was an active duty officer, military

    15 officer.

    16 Q. Do you know which part of the army or the

    17 armed forces Mr. Tomic was, infantry or artillery?

    18 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know exactly

    19 in which service he was.

    20 Q. Can't you judge that from his uniform, maybe

    21 his insignias?

    22 A. On these uniforms that were worn, there are

    23 no insignia or signs in terms of units, service,

    24 et cetera. I mean, that he had then.

    25 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your

  117. 1 Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?

    3 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic

    4 Q. Could the witness please say whether the

    5 person we are talking about, did he perhaps wear the

    6 uniform of an air force officer?

    7 A. No. A regular olive gray-green uniform, just

    8 like all other soldiers. That is that uniform.

    9 Q. Without any -- do you perhaps know what an

    10 air force uniform looks like?

    11 A. Oh, yes, I do. Certainly.

    12 Q. Could you describe it to us in brief?

    13 A. The air force wear blue uniforms and blue

    14 insignia.

    15 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further

    16 questions.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    18 no objection to the witness being released. Thank

    19 you. You are released.

    20 (Witness stands down)

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume we are moving on to

    22 our next witness.

    23 MR. PETROVIC: Our next witness is

    24 Niculovic.

    25 (The witness entered court)

  118. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niculovic, good

    2 afternoon. Could you please read out the solemn

    3 declaration?

    4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    6 truth.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?


    9 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

    10 Q. Can the witness please tell us his full name

    11 and surname and his father's name?

    12 A. My name is Dusan Niculovic. My father's name

    13 is Milutin.

    14 Q. When were you born?

    15 A. On the 25th of July, 1947.

    16 Q. Where do you live today?

    17 A. I live in Kladovo.

    18 Q. Your address?

    19 A. Timocka No. 8.

    20 Q. Are you employed as a driver at the Djerdap 1

    21 power station in Kladovo?

    22 A. Yes. I've been working there for the past 30

    23 years.

    24 Q. You're a driver?

    25 A. Yes, I'm a driver.

  119. 1 Q. Did you drive the delegation of the

    2 Municipality of Kladovo which went to Backa Palanka on

    3 the 20th of November?

    4 A. I drove a truck with Milivojevic and Rosic.

    5 MR. PETROVIC: Could we please play the tape

    6 for the witness, the beginning of the tape?

    7 Q. When you see yourself, please tell us that

    8 that's you.

    9 Could we please have this photograph shown to

    10 the witness and could he please indicate what is on the

    11 photograph?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked

    13 D100.

    14 A. This is where I was sitting, over there in

    15 that office in the municipal assembly with the other

    16 people.

    17 MR. PETROVIC: I suggest that this be

    18 admitted into evidence as Defence Exhibit number 100.

    19 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 MR. PETROVIC:

    22 Q. How long were you in Backa Palanka in the

    23 office we just saw?

    24 A. In that office, I think until about 12.00.

    25 We went out around 12.00, and then we set out for Dalj

  120. 1 with a truck that was taking humanitarian aid there to

    2 our reservists.

    3 Q. Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic on that day?

    4 A. Yes, I did see him. And until that, I never

    5 knew him.

    6 MR. PETROVIC: We can continue playing the

    7 tape so that the witness could identify ...

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 Could we please speed up the tape, fast

    10 forward until 10.00, approximately? Now could we play

    11 the tape?

    12 Q. When you see Mr. Dokmanovic, please tell us

    13 so.

    14 A. Here he is, Mr. Dokmanovic.

    15 Q. Do you see Mr. Dokmanovic here in this

    16 courtroom today? Where is he?

    17 A. Over there behind you.

    18 Q. Thank you. When did you last see

    19 Mr. Dokmanovic on that day?

    20 A. At 12.00 when we were parting -- when we went

    21 towards Dalj.

    22 MR. PETROVIC: Thank you. No further

    23 questions.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?

    25 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi

  121. 1 Q. Just one question, Mr. Niculovic. Why do you

    2 think Mr. Dokmanovic was attending that meeting on 20th

    3 November, 1991?

    4 A. It wasn't a meeting. He came there to see

    5 us. It wasn't a meeting, you know, like -- you know,

    6 as a driver, I was there. You know, it was more sort

    7 of like a gathering, not a meeting, a proper meeting.

    8 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Your

    9 Honour.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?

    11 MR. PETROVIC: No, thank you.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no

    13 objection to the witness being released. Thank you.

    14 You may be released.

    15 (Witness stands down)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    17 MR. FILA: Your Honour, my idea was to bring

    18 two more witnesses in, but there's a congress going on

    19 in The Hague and there weren't any hotel rooms

    20 available, so two people were sharing rooms

    21 respectively, and it really didn't make any sense to

    22 have three people per room. Therefore, we don't have

    23 any further witnesses. There will be coming in on

    24 Sunday three more of them -- three more on Monday -- on

    25 Monday, three more, and then Slavko Dokmanovic is four,

  122. 1 and the expert is five. Those are the people you will

    2 be seeing here and the video link, of course, on Monday

    3 and Tuesday.

    4 However, who does not come to the video link

    5 and who does not arrive by Tuesday to the video link, I

    6 shall not insist any longer. So the Defence will

    7 finish by the end of next week in addition to what we

    8 have we saw yesterday.

    9 I have a further question, with your

    10 permission? This evidence related to possible

    11 sentencing, does that mean that an expert can be

    12 brought in? Because according to the rules, you are

    13 supposed to bear in mind the sentencing policy in

    14 Yugoslavia at that period of time. So perhaps in that

    15 stage, should I perhaps bring in such a person?

    16 Because I do have this kind of intention, to bring in

    17 an expert in this kind of penalty policy, as we used to

    18 call it, of the SFRY. Would that be the proper time?

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, it will be quite

    20 appropriate.

    21 MR. FILA: In that case, I shall need two

    22 days in June at the most. Really, you know, even God

    23 needed seven days to create the world.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you. No,

    25 you're right. So two days in June because we're

  123. 1 thinking that the Prosecutor will need two days for the

    2 rebuttal witnesses and then one day for the closing

    3 statements for both parties.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we can

    5 certainly try to do that. At this point, since the

    6 Defence case is not yet finished, it's a bit premature

    7 for us to commit to exactly how many witnesses that we

    8 might call. We would certainly do everything we could

    9 to try to complete it in June. I think it's in

    10 everyone's interests to accomplish that.

    11 Just one other point in reference to this.

    12 We certainly have no objection to Mr. Fila calling this

    13 expert, but we would just ask that we receive a

    14 statement from him in advance as to the nature of his

    15 testimony.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Of course. I was going

    17 to ask Mr. Fila also about the statement by the expert

    18 witness Dr. Petrovic, Vera Petrovic. We have not yet

    19 received a statement.

    20 MR. FILA: The Registrar has promised me that

    21 it will be finished by tomorrow, so you will receive it

    22 tomorrow. But in the Serbian language, I have already

    23 provided copies.

    24 As far as evidence of the Defence is

    25 concerned, I want to make this quite clear. All the

  124. 1 Defence evidence will be presented by the end of next

    2 week. But what we are talking about now is something

    3 completely different. I mean, the Prosecutor has no

    4 right of rebuttal as far as this particular witness is

    5 concerned. This is an expert witness on penalties and

    6 sentencing in Yugoslavia. So by the end of next week,

    7 the Prosecutor will know exactly what the Defence has

    8 done and what the Defence intends to present.

    9 Am I clear on this? Do we understand each

    10 other on this? I need two days in June for the family

    11 of Mr. Dokmanovic, perhaps a friend or two, and that

    12 expert witness who is going to tell us about this

    13 penalty policy, sentencing policy. That's all.

    14 But as far as the evidence provided by the

    15 Defence is concerned, I told you that that would be

    16 completed by the end of next week, so the Prosecutor

    17 will know exactly what they need by then.

    18 And, of course, I am going to give

    19 Mr. Williamson the statement of that expert when I find

    20 this particular expert, because I still haven't found

    21 an expert for this, but when I find an expert, of

    22 course I'm going to provide the statement of that

    23 witness.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might just

    25 very briefly? I'm not sure that we would agree that we

  125. 1 have no right of rebuttal on this issue of sentence. I

    2 think that it's -- we have just been informed about

    3 this issue, that the court expected evidence of this to

    4 be presented during the course of the trial itself; and

    5 therefore, if evidence is presented by the Defence, I

    6 think we would have the right to rebut that.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Of course. Yes. There

    8 will be evidence from both parties. Yes. Of course.

    9 On the question of sentencing.

    10 All right. So we are grateful to Mr. Fila

    11 for his promise that he will submit both to the

    12 Prosecutor and to the court the statement of the

    13 witness expert on the sentencing in the Former

    14 Yugoslavia, the judicial practice, which will be of

    15 great interest, in any case, for the court, whatever

    16 the final decision of the court.

    17 I wonder whether I could also ask Mr. Fila

    18 about the witness statements of witnesses Miodrag

    19 Pavlovic and Radoslav Zlatic, whether we are going to

    20 get them.

    21 MR. FILA: I have also handed them in, and I

    22 think that we are going to get them next Tuesday.

    23 You see, may I remind you of what I said

    24 about the Yugoslav army. I had such trouble in

    25 convincing at least one person to come in, and I must

  126. 1 say that you have a message from the army of Yugoslavia

    2 that whatever the court wishes to have, according to

    3 the rules, if you need a document, that they're going

    4 to give it to you. But they won't give it to me

    5 because it says "Confidential." But if the court asks

    6 for it, then the head of the legal service of the JNA,

    7 Colonel Ristic, he said that he will give you whatever

    8 you ask for, but he won't give me anything.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you for this

    10 information, which is most gratifying, but we were

    11 never told that the authorities in Belgrade, the

    12 military authorities in Belgrade, would give us

    13 whatever we would ask for.

    14 Of course, if you're interested in any

    15 document, you could put in a request to us and we would

    16 be most happy to send this as a request from the court

    17 to Belgrade.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very

    19 quickly. I don't know if Mr. Fila is aware of this.

    20 We yesterday received a statement of Mr. Pavlovic, so I

    21 believe the translation of that statement is

    22 completed. The other one we have not yet received, so

    23 I suppose it's still in the process of being

    24 translated.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, turning to this

  127. 1 question of military documents, of military

    2 information --

    3 MR. FILA: I sent Pavlovic's statement in

    4 Serbian. You got a copy in English? When did you

    5 manage to get that? I mean, it is following --

    6 Mr. Pavlovic is a colonel of the JNA, and in his

    7 statement -- I mean, when he testifies before the

    8 Honourable Court, he is going to invoke certain

    9 documents, and I wanted him to bring in these documents

    10 to show them to you. And you know that according to

    11 our rules, you cannot just talk; you have to show

    12 documents in order to corroborate this. Well, he won't

    13 be able to get these documents otherwise. Only if you

    14 ask them will you be able to get them. That's it.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. That's why I'm

    16 asking you whether you could submit to the court a

    17 request for those documents which you are interested

    18 in, and tomorrow we can send a formal request to the

    19 army, the relevant authorities in Belgrade, so that

    20 they can provide us with those documents as soon as

    21 possible. Ideally, it would be --

    22 MR. FILA: It is better for him to say what

    23 are the documents when he testifies on Wednesday and

    24 Thursday, and then we are going to request them and

    25 then they will arrive before June because then we are

  128. 1 going to see what is of interest. Perhaps there is

    2 something that the Prosecutor may find interesting too,

    3 but I don't know if they are going to keep their word.

    4 I am just telling you what they have told me.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we would

    6 suggest that perhaps Mr. Fila talk to the witness

    7 beforehand and find out which documents are involved

    8 because I think if he's going to submit these, we would

    9 want the gentleman to verify them in court before we

    10 would have no objection to them being admitted into

    11 evidence.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Again, so I go back to

    13 my proposal, my suggestion, that --

    14 MR. FILA: Try. Try. I would have to see

    15 them first, but they won't let me see them. That's the

    16 problem. Because -- perhaps we know what it's all

    17 about also. It pertains to the situation in '90 and

    18 '91, attacks on JNA barracks, the ethnic structure of

    19 the JNA, how many different ethnic groups there were

    20 and how many members of each group, Serbs, Croats,

    21 Bosnians, et cetera. That is what they say is a

    22 military secret and that they cannot disclose it to

    23 me. And that's all. I mean, that is the point. That

    24 is the core of the matter, because Mr. Williamson put

    25 questions about this ethnic structure of the JNA in the

  129. 1 period that is relevant to this indictment. Witness

    2 Pavlovic is going to speak about it. He does have

    3 figures about that, and he can present them. But only

    4 you can ask for an official document, an official

    5 report on that.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    7 MR. FILA: That is the core of the matter.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, my suggestion, which

    9 was supported by the Prosecutor for other reasons,

    10 probably is the best one, but it's not realistic to

    11 expect that they will provide by next week all these

    12 documents.

    13 So I wonder whether we could go about this

    14 matter as follows: The witness will come here to

    15 testify and will indicate what sort of documents we

    16 would need. Then we will send a formal request to the

    17 military authorities in Belgrade; and if they send

    18 these documents, then in June they may or may not be

    19 admitted in evidence after they are shown to the

    20 Prosecutor.

    21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I think that

    22 would be fine. We wouldn't want to commit ourselves at

    23 this point until we have seen the documents.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Of course.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Perhaps the witness could be

  130. 1 recalled in June to identify the documents and to

    2 verify them at that time.

    3 MR. FILA: That's right. We can recall him.

    4 Because I didn't see them. It's a report. For

    5 example, they tell me that it was sent to the Tribunal

    6 God-knows-when, this report that is being translated.

    7 Perhaps it is in the OTP. I don't know. They said

    8 that they sent it way back. But whether they sent it,

    9 I don't know. I cannot claim that.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will check all

    11 that next week.

    12 One final issue: The Prosecutor may remember

    13 that some time ago we asked the Prosecution to provide

    14 the court and, of course, the Defence, with colour

    15 stills of Mr. Dokmanovic taken from the videotape. I

    16 wonder whether we could get stills in colour of

    17 Mr. Dokmanovic?

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we have some

    19 stills. I would have to check on the exact status of

    20 that. I'm not sure if we have completed it and have

    21 all of the stills that the court was asking for, but

    22 I'll certainly make every attempt to find out.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: In particular, stills from

    24 the tape we saw today and yesterday.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: From Defence Exhibit 2.

  131. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. We will check and see

    3 what we can find.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you think we could get all

    5 those documents by next Monday? No.

    6 MR. WILLIAMSON: I will see. I know that we

    7 have had some problem, and I assume that it has

    8 affected the first floor as well. We understand that

    9 they do not have paper for printing, and so this also

    10 includes the appropriate paper for printing

    11 photographs. So I'm not sure if that situation has

    12 been resolved in its entirety, but I'll endeavour to

    13 find out this afternoon.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Any

    15 other question or issue to be discussed?

    16 All right. So we will resume our hearings on

    17 Monday, next Monday, at 9.30. Yes.

    18 So we will now adjourn.

    19 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned

    20 at 5.30 p.m. to be resumed Monday,

    21 25 May, 1998 at 9.00 a.m.