Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3133

          1                 Tuesday, 26 May, 1998

          2                 (In open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning.  I would like

          6  to ask the Registrar to call out the case number,

          7  please.

          8            THE REGISTRAR:  It is case number

          9  IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Dokmanovic.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Dokmanovic,

         11  can you hear me well?  Thank you.

         12            As usual, we will do without the appearances,

         13  so we can start.

         14            [For the Prosecution:  Mr. Niemann, Mr. Williamson,

         15            Mr. Waespi

         16            For the Defence:  Mr. Fila, Mr. Petrovic]

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Before we start, Mr. Fila,

         18  may I ask you to do me a favour, a favour to all of

         19  us?  To be careful and ask the witnesses to try to

         20  refrain from mentioning names of protected witnesses.

         21  Yesterday, you kindly drew my attention, our attention,

         22  to the fact that one witness had mentioned the name of

         23  a protected witness, so we had to redact the

         24  transcript.

         25            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, let's see where the

Page 3134

          1  problem lies.  I did not tell those individuals what

          2  Witness Q's name is, so if I say not to mention the

          3  witness's name, then I have uncovered the witness's

          4  identity.  Do you see where the problem lies?  And if

          5  you have a better solution, I will very readily adhere

          6  to it, but if I tell him, "Don't tell us the name

          7  because it is Witness Q," then that's a difficulty.  It

          8  is easier for him to say the name and then we can wipe

          9  it out, if you agree.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  But in that case, we

         11  can redact the name on the transcript.  However, since

         12  we are working in this small courtroom and since there

         13  is no means of delaying the broadcast of the tape which

         14  is being taken, therefore, the public in the public

         15  gallery or downstairs, they will hear the name.  So

         16  therefore, we must go out of our way to make sure that

         17  protected witnesses' names are not mentioned.

         18            I wonder whether Mr. Niemann has a better

         19  idea or any suggestion, a practical suggestion?

         20            MR. NIEMANN:  It might assist, Your Honour,

         21  if a mistake happens, rather than mentioning it in open

         22  court, to go into private session and then describe

         23  what's happened, because often, if something happens

         24  like that, it's not so much a problem -- well, it is a

         25  problem with it being mentioned -- but that can be

Page 3135

          1  exacerbated by discussing it in open court.  So if we

          2  could immediately go into private session, at some

          3  stage go into private session, resolve the matter as

          4  best we can, and then come out of private session, I

          5  think that would be a better approach to the matter.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  Good.  Thank

          7  you.  That is a good suggestion.

          8            All right.  So we may start with the first

          9  witness.  Mr. Fila?

         10            MR. PETROVIC:  Our first witness is Paja

         11  Nedic.  Can you hear me?

         12                 WITNESS:  PAJA NEDIC

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  Mr. Nedic, could you

         14  please stand and make the solemn declaration?

         15            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         16  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

         17  truth.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may be

         19  seated.

         20                 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

         21       Q.   Mr. Nedic, did you, on the 16th of September,

         22  1997, make a statement to the investigator on the

         23  Defence team, and is that the statement that we're

         24  going to show you now?

         25            May we have the statement shown here in the

Page 3136

          1  courtroom as well, please, and sent to the Prosecutor?

          2       A.   Yes, it is.

          3       Q.   Is it your signature on the statement?

          4       A.   Yes, it is.

          5            MR. PETROVIC:  If there are no objections,

          6  then I tender the statement as D108.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  There is no

          8  objection from the Prosecution, so it's D108.

          9            THE REGISTRAR:  Just one moment, please.  It

         10  is D109 and D109A.

         11            MR. PETROVIC:

         12       Q.   Mr. Nedic, did you graduate from the machine

         13  engineering faculty?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Where and when?

         16       A.   I graduated in Belgrade in 1980.

         17       Q.   Can you tell us, in the course of your

         18  working career, where you were employed?

         19       A.   The most part of my career I spent in Bor

         20  (phoen), and this was from when I started up to the

         21  rank of director of production line in the Bor factory.

         22            THE INTERPRETER:  The Borovo, I'm sorry, the

         23  Borovo factory, yes.

         24            MR. PETROVIC:

         25       Q.   Can you tell us what the Borovo plant

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          1  represented?

          2       A.   For the Vukovar region, the Borovo concern

          3  was a basic enterprise which employed 75 percent of the

          4  working population, which was the social product as

          5  well.  In the best years of that time, the profits were

          6  highest in the Borovo plant, and Borovo was well-known

          7  in Europe and the world for producing footwear and for

          8  rubber and technical goods and pneumatics.

          9       Q.   Until what time did you perform your job in

         10  the Borovo plant?

         11       A.   The last day was the 29th of April, 1991.  I

         12  worked there until that date.

         13       Q.   Why was that your last day at Borovo?

         14       A.   The day before the events that occurred on

         15  the 2nd of May in Borovo Selo, and after that, I had a

         16  series of informations given to me that I would not be

         17  able to go to Borovo and that I must not appear there

         18  because at that time unidentified individuals, as they

         19  said, could take me away from Borovo.

         20       Q.   Were you a member of the government of the

         21  Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

         22  Srem?

         23       A.   Yes, I was.  I was a member of the

         24  government.

         25       Q.   When were you elected to that function?

Page 3138

          1       A.   I was elected on the 25th of September, 1991,

          2  in Beli Manastir, at the assembly that was held there.

          3       Q.   Was Slavko Dokmanovic a member of that

          4  government?

          5       A.   Yes, he was.  At that assembly, the

          6  government was elected at the proposal of the mandater,

          7  and in addition to myself, Slavko Dokmanovic's name was

          8  put forward, and with lesser or greater problems, he

          9  was elected Minister of Agriculture.

         10       Q.   What were the problems that took place?  Who

         11  made some problems as to the election of Slavko

         12  Dokmanovic?

         13       A.   Well, Slavko Dokmanovic's election was

         14  attendant with problems.  First of all, there were

         15  individual members, delegates of the assembly, who,

         16  because of Dokmanovic's previous work in the Municipal

         17  Assembly of Vukovar, did not agree with the way in

         18  which he worked.  They considered that he was one of

         19  the people to blame for the position of the Serbian

         20  people on that territory.

         21       Q.   What was he criticised for in concrete terms;

         22  do you know?

         23       A.   Well, he was criticised because he made

         24  compromises, first of all with the HDZ, which was one

         25  of the parties in the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar,

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          1  and also for his cooperation with the organs of the

          2  Croatian State.

          3       Q.   Since when have you known Slavko Dokmanovic

          4  personally?

          5       A.   I got to know Slavko Dokmanovic in primary

          6  school.  We're of the same age, we went to the same

          7  primary school, and we went to the same secondary

          8  school in part at the same time, and so we attended

          9  various village festivities, marriages, sports events.

         10  And later on in life, we met frequently.  We met

         11  frequently at various events and for various reasons.

         12       Q.   Can you please tell us something now about

         13  the functioning of the so-called government of the

         14  Serbian district of Baranja and Western Srem?

         15       A.   Well, the government of the Serbian district

         16  after the elections, in fact, found itself in a

         17  situation where it had none of the insignias of

         18  function, of parent authority.  That is to say, it had

         19  no way of using force or the resources it needed, the

         20  instruments it needed, in order to function.  So it had

         21  to make do with what it had at its disposal.  There was

         22  no electricity at the time, water, no telephone

         23  communications.  We did not have anywhere to stay, and,

         24  in fact, we had to look for chairs to sit on.

         25            Some of us found some empty rooms in Erdut

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          1  which were in a very poor condition and, as I say, we

          2  had to bring in chairs quite literally, chairs and

          3  tables, and we remained there provisionally, trying to

          4  organise what we could under the conditions that

          5  prevailed in those days.

          6       Q.   Is it true to say that the government

          7  partially wanted to establish effective rule in the

          8  northern parts of the Serbian district around the Erdut

          9  region and that it had no contacts or competences south

         10  of the City of Vukovar?

         11       A.   Yes, that is correct, because between Vukovar

         12  and Osijek, the territory was in the Serbian villages,

         13  we were able to pass through it, and we were not able

         14  to go to the eastern part and southern part, south of

         15  Vukovar.  It was 150 kilometres of road passing through

         16  Yugoslavia.

         17       Q.   Which means that there were no territorial

         18  links between the northern sections of the Serbian

         19  district around Erdut and the part south of the town of

         20  Vukovar?

         21       A.   That's right.  We could not pass through that

         22  route on the 25th of November, that is, 1991, of

         23  course.

         24       Q.   How frequently, as a member of the

         25  government, did you meet Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic?

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          1       A.   Well, we had occasion to meet after the 25th

          2  of September occasionally in Erdut at joint -- in the

          3  rooms which we both used, the halls, and we tried to

          4  renovate them to find the chairs and tables and

          5  inventory that we needed to function, we tried to

          6  introduce a telephone and to have the basics, the bare

          7  essentials for us to be able to function.  That is

          8  where we met, usually in the morning hours.

          9            We would comment on the events of the day and

         10  we would try to do something to take action, but this

         11  was always very difficult because of the prevailing

         12  conditions.

         13       Q.   Did you perhaps notice what Slavko Dokmanovic

         14  was wearing most often in those days?

         15       A.   Well, yes, I do, because Slavko was most

         16  often wearing a sort of greenish uniform, the hunting

         17  type, and part of this clothing was intended for

         18  hunters.  It was the kind of clothing that hunters wore

         19  when they went hunting.

         20       Q.   If we were to show you that uniform now,

         21  could you recognise it, do you think?

         22       A.   I think I could, yes.

         23            MR. PETROVIC:  Would you show the witness

         24  Exhibit D48, please?

         25       A.   Yes, I think that is the clothing.

Page 3142

          1       Q.   Have a look at it.  Take it out and tell us

          2  whether that is the clothing worn by him.

          3       A.   Yes, that is the uniform.  Whether it was

          4  this one -- it was like that, yes.

          5       Q.   Is it a hunting uniform, the vest, or is it a

          6  military uniform?

          7       A.   No, this is a hunting uniform.  You see, this

          8  is intended for the shells, the bullets.

          9       Q.   Could you turn this around for the camera to

         10  see and for the Chamber to see?

         11       A.   The cartridges go in there, for example, and

         12  this is for a hunting rifle.

         13       Q.   Thank you.  On the 19th of November, were you

         14  present at the government meeting held in Erdut?

         15       A.   Yes, I was.  I was present.

         16       Q.   Was Slavko Dokmanovic present at the meeting?

         17       A.   Yes, he was.

         18            THE INTERPRETER:  We lost that, I'm sorry.

         19       A.   Why I --

         20       Q.   Could you repeat that, please?  Could you

         21  repeat the answer to the question whether

         22  Mr. Dokmanovic was present?

         23       A.   Yes, he was.  He was present at the meeting,

         24  and there was a characteristic event which helps me

         25  remember that I saw him there and that we talked before

Page 3143

          1  the meeting and at the meeting itself.

          2       Q.   What was that event; could you tell us?

          3       A.   Well, one of our colleagues --

          4            THE INTERPRETER:  We lost that.

          5       A.   -- who was -- who lost his grandparents --

          6       Q.   Once again, please, could you --

          7       A.   I remember the event because one of our

          8  colleagues had lost his grandparents, that is to say,

          9  the parents of his wife, his in-laws, they were elderly

         10  people, and we talked to him about that event.  He was

         11  in a very difficult situation having lost two people he

         12  liked, so I remember that particular meeting.

         13            MR. PETROVIC:  I should like to show the

         14  witness D53, Exhibit D53.

         15       Q.   And would you please tell us what it is?

         16            MR. BOS:  I do not have Exhibit D63 with me.

         17            MR. PETROVIC:  D53, D53.

         18       Q.   Mr. Nedic, what is that document?

         19       A.   It is the minutes from the meeting of the

         20  government meeting, number 17, of the Serbian district.

         21       Q.   Is that the minutes of the meeting that we're

         22  talking about, that is the one held on the 19th of

         23  November?

         24       A.   Yes, it is.

         25       Q.   Would you look at page 2 of the minutes,

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          1  point 5, and would you read it out and explain what it

          2  is all about?

          3       A.   "That the Serbian district be placed above

          4  the units of the JNA on its territory."

          5            I think that this formulation in point 5 is

          6  not adequate and has not been well-expressed and

          7  introduced into the text --

          8       Q.   Could you repeat what you have just said from

          9  the beginning, please?  Your comment of point 5.

         10       A.   My comment of point 5 is that this is an

         11  inadequate formulation of what is meant, and from this

         12  we can see that we are asking to be above the --

         13  superior to the units of the JNA.

         14       Q.   That means did you ask for something that you

         15  did not have at that particular time?

         16       A.   Yes.  But I don't think that we asked to

         17  supersede the JNA units at that time either.  What we

         18  wanted was that after the liberation of certain

         19  localities to establish civilian rule, civilian power

         20  and authority, and I don't think that the text reflects

         21  our ideas.  I think that Mr. Jovan Pejakovic, who wrote

         22  the minutes, did not express this adequately.

         23       Q.   Does that mean that in the places that were

         24  liberated there was no civilian rule and that it was

         25  under the control of the government of the Serbian

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          1  district?

          2       A.   Well, it was not under the control of the

          3  Serbian government district, it was a war zone, a war

          4  locality, and it was, in fact, the JNA who held power

          5  over that territory.

          6       Q.   And when were the first organs of civilian

          7  power and authority established on the liberated

          8  territories?

          9       A.   Only after the liberation of Vukovar, when it

         10  was possible for the council of Vukovar --

         11       Q.   Repeat that, please.  We lost you.

         12       A.   Only when -- only after the liberation of

         13  Vukovar when the executive board was established,

         14  executive council was established for Vukovar.  Only at

         15  that point was this established in other parts.

         16       Q.   So until the liberation of the town and the

         17  election of the executive council, what way was the

         18  town of Vukovar administered and the Vukovar

         19  municipality?

         20       A.   Well, the town of Vukovar was at the time

         21  under the control of the Yugoslav People's Army in

         22  practical terms, and the government did not have any

         23  power and authority over the town and the

         24  administration of the town.

         25       Q.   Do you know when the executive council of the

Page 3146

          1  Municipality of Vukovar was formed and when it began to

          2  function in practical terms?

          3       A.   Well, it was proposed and elected at a

          4  government meeting, I think it was on the 28th of

          5  November, 1991.  But when it began to function in

          6  practical terms, perhaps 15 days later, perhaps 30 days

          7  later, I'm not quite sure.  But the ten individuals who

          8  were proposed for the executive council had a lot of

          9  problems to contend with, and they were not able to

         10  establish civilian rule.  This took some time.

         11       Q.   May we now go back to the minutes that you

         12  have in front of you?  And on page 2, the last

         13  paragraph notes that the members of the government

         14  will, on the following day, have a meeting.

         15            Could you read out what it says and explain

         16  to us what it says?

         17       A.   "Goran Hadzic, the Prime Minister, informs

         18  the members of the government that due to the situation

         19  in Vukovar, it is necessary for the government members

         20  to be on Wednesday, the 20th of November, 1991 --"

         21            THE INTERPRETER:  We lost the name of where.

         22       A.   "-- and for Friday, on the 22nd of November,

         23  1991, a meeting, government meeting, was convened in

         24  Beli Manastir at 9.00."

         25       Q.   Could you please explain the difference

Page 3147

          1  between convening the meeting for Friday and the

          2  government members gathering on the 20th in Vukovar?

          3  Was there any difference there between the two

          4  meetings?

          5       A.   Well, yes, of course there was, because at

          6  the government meeting to which the material before me

          7  relates, we were informed that part of Vukovar had been

          8  liberated, and the proposal was that those members of

          9  the government who can and who have the necessary

         10  transport to go to Vukovar should go there, should

         11  appear there, because the government had no way of

         12  acting in Vukovar.  So this was the first appearance of

         13  the government in Vukovar, and no meeting was scheduled

         14  there.  Perhaps if the people met there, then they

         15  could have a meeting.

         16       Q.   Does that mean that it was the government's

         17  intention to demonstrate its existence by being in

         18  Vukovar on the 20th and not to hold a meeting, a

         19  regular meeting?

         20       A.   Yes, that is right, to have a show of

         21  presence for the government because the greatest

         22  portion of the government members were not in Vukovar

         23  on the 20th of November.

         24       Q.   So it follows on --

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 3148

          1       Q.   It follows on from there that the regular

          2  government meeting was convened for Friday, the Friday

          3  mentioned in the minutes?

          4       A.   Yes, that's right.  It was scheduled for the

          5  22nd of November and was held on November the 22nd in

          6  Beli Manastir.

          7       Q.   So that is the next government meeting in

          8  relation to the 17th that we mentioned.  So on Friday,

          9  it was the 18th government session; is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes, it is.

         11       Q.   Did you attend the meeting or the session

         12  that was held in Vukovar on the 20th of November?

         13       A.   No, I did not attend that meeting because at

         14  that time it was not an obligatory thing.  It was a

         15  simple visit to Vukovar which was supposed to enable

         16  people to come to Vukovar.

         17       Q.   Could you please repeat the last sentence?

         18  Please repeat the last sentence.

         19       A.   No, it was not an obligation.  Most members

         20  did not have any transport, so they did not show up

         21  there.  We had no meeting that was scheduled there.  We

         22  simply wanted to meet there at a certain point in time,

         23  if possible, and I didn't believe that it was necessary

         24  for me to go 150 kilometres and to be there because

         25  nothing special was supposed to be decided or nothing

Page 3149

          1  special was supposed to take place, so I didn't go

          2  there.

          3       Q.   So it means that there was no quorum on that

          4  meeting, no agenda, and no minutes were taken during

          5  that meeting, as far as you know?

          6       A.   As far as I know, no.

          7       Q.   Since you know Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic from

          8  your early days, could you tell us your opinion about

          9  this man?

         10       A.   He's a friend of mine from a neighbouring

         11  village which is only 2 kilometres away from my

         12  village.  We have known each other very well.  And in

         13  addition to the time that we spent together in our

         14  youth, we also worked as colleagues while he was

         15  working in the Vukovar municipality as an expert for

         16  agriculture between 1970 and 1980 -- 1980 and 1990.

         17  And during that time, he never expressed any kind of

         18  radical opinions, he never picked a fight, he never

         19  quarrelled with people.  He was always acting in an

         20  opposite way.  He was the one who was trying to make

         21  peace with people.  He was involved in the public life

         22  of the village, and I think he had a considerable

         23  influence in resolving differences between villages.

         24       Q.   Do you know the family of Slavko Dokmanovic?

         25       A.   Well, I know them now.  I've known Dan'lka

Page 3150

          1  for some time, that's his wife.  I think she's about

          2  the same age as we are.  And, yes, I know her.  I

          3  didn't spend as much time with her as I spent with

          4  Slavko.

          5       Q.   You have probably heard Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic

          6  has been charged with participating in the killing of

          7  200 people.  What do you think of that?

          8       A.   It's impossible, it's simply impossible.

          9  This is the kind of man who wouldn't be able to do a

         10  much less serious thing, he wouldn't be able to assist

         11  in such a thing, be present at such an event.  It's a

         12  simple mistake.

         13            MR. PETROVIC:  Thank you very much,

         14  Mr. Nedic.  The Defence has no further questions for

         15  you at this time.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Niemann?

         17                 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

         18       Q.   Mr. Nedic, the minutes of the meeting that

         19  you discussed, D53, have you seen those minutes before,

         20  I mean, in the witness box today?

         21       A.   No.

         22       Q.   Why was that?  Why wouldn't you have seen

         23  them before this?

         24       A.   Well, nobody offered me to see this.

         25       Q.   Yes.  Perhaps there may be some confusion.

Page 3151

          1  I'm talking about, did you see them at around about the

          2  time that they were produced back in 1991?

          3       A.   I tried to find the minutes that I took

          4  home.  This is not the one that I took home.  I haven't

          5  seen these minutes.  This is not the one I saw.

          6       Q.   Now, you said that -- expressed doubts about

          7  whether the government could have exercised control

          8  over the JNA.  There's no question, is there, that the

          9  government had authority over the Territorial Defence

         10  as opposed to the JNA?

         11            MR. PETROVIC:  What is your question,

         12  please?  I apologise.  What is the question?

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  It is clear.  Can you put it

         14  again?  But it is clear to me.

         15            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes.

         16       Q.   You said that you expressed doubts about the

         17  government's authority to exercise control over the

         18  JNA, but there is no question about your ability to

         19  exercise authority over the Territorial Defence, was

         20  there?

         21            THE INTERPRETER:  We lost the beginning.

         22       A.   And there was no possibility to control the

         23  Territorial Defence because the assembly had adopted a

         24  decision whereby they would be integrated within the

         25  armed forces of Yugoslavia as of the beginning of

Page 3152

          1  August -- that is October, I'm sorry, from October

          2  onwards.

          3       Q.   What then is intended or meant by item 2 on

          4  these minutes that refer to the Territorial Defence

          5  commander?

          6       A.   Well, practically it says here that the link

          7  that existed between the Territorial Defence and the

          8  JNA, the liaison officer should report to the

          9  government, if this is the item 2.  This is the first

         10  time, actually, that I've read it.

         11       Q.   Well, you know Miroljub Vujovic, don't you?

         12       A.   I know who that person is, but I cannot say

         13  that I know him.

         14       Q.   You know him to be a person who was in the

         15  Territorial Defence?

         16       A.   Well, I learned that only after the

         17  liberation of Vukovar.

         18       Q.   When did you learn that?

         19       A.   I learned that only at the meeting of the

         20  government on the 28th and 29th of November when we

         21  were deciding as to the membership of the executive

         22  council of the Vukovar municipality.

         23       Q.   And Miroljub Vujovic was appointed to the

         24  executive council of Vukovar by the government, wasn't

         25  he?

Page 3153

          1       A.   I think so, yes.  I mean, I don't have any

          2  kind of document that would -- to confirm, but I

          3  believe that he was on that list, yes.

          4       Q.   Now, at the meeting on the 19th of November,

          5  1991, was there any discussion about what would be the

          6  subject of the discussion at the meeting in Vukovar the

          7  next day, the 20th?

          8       A.   I have already said that no meeting was

          9  supposed to be held in Vukovar but that one part of the

         10  government was supposed to go to Vukovar just to see

         11  what the situation was, to introduce themselves to the

         12  people, to show them that there was government in

         13  place.  There was no agenda whatsoever and no meeting,

         14  no session was held.  The session was held on the 22nd

         15  of November in Beli Manastir.

         16       Q.   Members of the government had the freedom to

         17  choose, did they, whether they would want to go to

         18  Vukovar or whether they didn't?

         19       A.   Yes.  They each could decide for him or

         20  herself whether to go.  It also depended on the

         21  transport available, and I told you, between the

         22  western part of the area and Vukovar, you had to cover

         23  about 130, 150 kilometres, and at that time, it was by

         24  no means easy.  It was a difficult distance to cover.

         25       Q.   Now, this freedom of choosing whether or not

Page 3154

          1  you should attend, are you sure it had nothing to do

          2  with the contents of the discussion which you were to

          3  have at Vukovar on that day?

          4       A.   I repeat, it was not obligatory for us to go

          5  to Vukovar because no meeting of the government was

          6  convened and no agenda had been drafted, and I know

          7  very well that the President told us that those who

          8  could go should come to Vukovar just to see what was

          9  happening and to introduce themselves to the people who

         10  would by all means gather there.  We had no idea of

         11  what was happening in Vukovar at that time.

         12       Q.   During the period leading up to the 20th of

         13  November when you were a member of the government, did

         14  you wear a military uniform?

         15       A.   Well, I can claim with certainty that I never

         16  wore a complete uniform, maybe only a jacket, that is,

         17  the upper part of the uniform, and for practical

         18  reasons.

         19       Q.   And what were the practical reasons that you

         20  wore the military jacket?

         21       A.   Well, the practical reasons were, for

         22  example, because I lived in that area between Erdut --

         23  in the area between Erdut and my village, there were at

         24  least five or six checkpoints, and every civilian of my

         25  age at that time was suspicious, to say the least.

Page 3155

          1  Therefore, I had to pass these checkpoints every day,

          2  and sometimes even two times a day, and each

          3  explanation to whoever was at the checkpoint as to why

          4  I was wearing civilian clothes, let alone a tie, which

          5  I'm wearing now, this would -- this would most

          6  certainly anger the people who were there at the

          7  checkpoints.

          8            MR. NIEMANN:  Excuse me a moment.

          9       Q.   Now, this would have also applied, would it

         10  not, to other people who were travelling, for example,

         11  from Trpinja to Erdut, such as Mr. Dokmanovic's

         12  situation?

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear the

         14  beginning.

         15       A.   ... because of the checkpoints.

         16            THE INTERPRETER:  That was the latter part of

         17  the sentence.

         18       Q.   I need to repeat the question because we

         19  didn't receive it all here in The Hague, so I will

         20  repeat the question again, if I may?

         21            My question is the necessity to wear at least

         22  some part of a military uniform would have also applied

         23  to other people, such as Mr. Dokmanovic, who at the

         24  time was travelling between Trpinja and Erdut.

         25       A.   If you haven't heard me, I said yes.  I said

Page 3156

          1  that he had the same kind of problems I had, and vice

          2  versa, of course.

          3       Q.   Now, you said -- wasn't your evidence that

          4  you said there were no telephones at all in Erdut at

          5  the time?

          6       A.   At that time there was, I think, one

          7  telephone line, which was busy from time to time, and

          8  there was one telephone, of course.

          9            MR. NIEMANN:  No further questions.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Petrovic?

         11            MR. PETROVIC:  Thank you.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Nedic, I have one or two

         13  questions for you.

         14            You said, in answering a question put to you

         15  by Defence counsel, that there was no quorum at the

         16  meeting in Vukovar on the 20th of November.  How do you

         17  know that there was no quorum?  You were not there.

         18  Did somebody tell you afterwards?

         19       A.   Two days later, on the 22nd of November, in

         20  Beli Manastir, the people who had been to Vukovar, who

         21  had visited Vukovar, we knew who these people were, and

         22  as I told you, I believe that most members of the

         23  government could not go and were not there in Vukovar.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  So therefore I understand

         25  from what you say that you were told on the 22nd of

Page 3157

          1  November, at the subsequent meeting of the government,

          2  that no quorum existed in Vukovar on the 20th.  That

          3  means that those people who had participated in the

          4  meeting on the 20th reported to you and other members

          5  who had been absent on the 20th of November about what

          6  had been discussed on the 20th.

          7            What were you told about the matters

          8  discussed on the 20th of November?

          9       A.   Well, seven years later, I think it's very

         10  difficult for anyone to remember exactly what

         11  happened.  Those who were in Vukovar told us about the

         12  situation in the town.  This is something I could tell

         13  you about.  But as for the meeting, whether any kind of

         14  meeting was held, I cannot -- I cannot tell you.  It

         15  was a long time ago.  But these people went to Vukovar

         16  just to see the condition of the town itself.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  However, they did tell you

         18  about a small detail of the meeting, namely, that no

         19  quorum existed, there was no quorum in the meeting.

         20  They dwelt on a small detail and didn't report to you

         21  on the major problem of what had been discussed and

         22  possibly agreed upon on the 20th.  Don't you find this

         23  a bit odd, that there was a difference between this

         24  detail and the major matters?  Sorry.  I didn't hear

         25  your answer.

Page 3158

          1       A.   Well, first of all, nobody mentioned any kind

          2  of quorum, and this is the conclusion I made on the

          3  basis of who went there, and my conclusion was that

          4  there was no quorum.  On the other hand, I can tell you

          5  that what we discussed on the 22nd of November in Beli

          6  Manastir was just impressions that people had made

          7  during their visit to Vukovar.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  One final

          9  question:  What was the practice of your government as

         10  far as the taking of minutes was concerned?  Were

         11  minutes taken by somebody present at the meeting?  I

         12  imagine that this was so.  But were they formally read

         13  out and adopted at the meeting or at the subsequent

         14  meeting?

         15       A.   Well, usually the person who was in charge of

         16  taking minutes, it was Jovan Pejakovic, in most cases

         17  it was him, and afterwards that document would be taken

         18  to Dalj where they had a typewriter and then he would

         19  draft -- he would make a draft of the minutes; and on

         20  the following meeting, he would distribute it, if

         21  possible, to all present and all members.  We were

         22  supposed to have a look at it and to confirm whether

         23  this corresponded to the contents of the previous

         24  meeting, previous session, and we would, after that,

         25  adopt the minutes.

Page 3159

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Does this imply that on the

          2  22nd of November, the minutes of the meeting on the

          3  20th of November, were adopted, were read by all

          4  members of government and adopted by them?

          5       A.   Of the 20th of November?  Is that your

          6  question?

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry, you're right.  I

          8  apologise.  I made a mistake.  I meant to say the

          9  minutes of the meeting of the 19th of November.

         10       A.   Yes.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Were they circulated on the

         12  22nd of November to all members of government and

         13  adopted by them in that meeting of the 22nd of

         14  November?

         15       A.   No.  No, they were not distributed on the

         16  22nd of November, maybe later, maybe sometime after

         17  that, but they were not circulated on that day because

         18  a meeting of the government in Beli Manastir preceded

         19  the session, and there was a lot of materials, a lot of

         20  documents that had to be prepared, and I'm quite sure

         21  that no agenda was proposed at that time for adoption

         22  during that session of the government, the one that was

         23  held in Beli Manastir.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  I see.  This is in spite of

         25  the fact that the minutes were actually taken -- I mean

Page 3160

          1  typewritten on the 20th of November, 1991, at Dalj, as

          2  we can see from this document produced by Defence

          3  counsel, D53.  You have got it in front of you, and you

          4  may see there that it carries the date of the 20th of

          5  November.  That means that they were drafted on the

          6  20th at Dalj.  So my assumption was -- I thought that

          7  they had been therefore discussed on the 22nd.  But

          8  probably it was not so, according to you.  They were

          9  not discussed and adopted on the 22nd?

         10       A.   I believe, and I'm almost sure, that no, that

         11  they were not.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Any questions?

         13  No?

         14            All right.  There is no objection to

         15  Mr. Nedic being released?

         16            Mr. Nedic, thank you for testifying.  You may

         17  now be released.

         18            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

         19                 (The witness withdrew)

         20            MR. PETROVIC:  Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic.

         21                 WITNESS:  BOGDAN VOJNOVIC

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Vojnovic, good morning.

         23  Could you please stand and make the solemn

         24  declaration?

         25            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

Page 3161

          1  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          2  truth.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

          4                 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

          5       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, on the 26th of November, 1998,

          6  did you make a statement?  You will be shown the

          7  statement.  Is it your statement, the statement that

          8  you made and signed?

          9       A.   Yes, on the 26th I made this statement, and I

         10  remain completely in accord with the statement as I see

         11  it.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  No objection?

         13            MR. PETROVIC:  If there are no objections,

         14  then I would like to tender it into evidence.  The next

         15  number, is it 110?  I suppose it is.

         16            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, it is document D110 and

         17  D110A for the translation.

         18            MR. PETROVIC:

         19       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, can you tell us, please,

         20  something about your education, what schools you

         21  completed, where and when?

         22       A.   I graduated from the faculty of economics in

         23  Zagreb in 1970.

         24       Q.   In the course of your working career, where

         25  were you employed?

Page 3162

          1       A.   From 1972 until the end of 1989, I worked in

          2  Vupik, Vukovar, and the last ten years there, I was the

          3  financial director of Vupik, and from the beginning of

          4  1990, I formed a private business.

          5       Q.   Were you a member of the government of the

          6  Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

          7  Srem?

          8       A.   Yes, I was a member of the government.

          9       Q.   What function did you perform?

         10       A.   From the 25th of September, I held the

         11  function of Finance Minister.

         12       Q.   Was Slavko Dokmanovic a member of that

         13  government as well?

         14       A.   Slavko Dokmanovic was a member of the

         15  government, yes, and he was in charge of Agriculture,

         16  he was Minister of Agriculture.

         17       Q.   Can you tell us something about the daily

         18  functioning of that government, whether the government

         19  had everything that is understood as being part of a

         20  regular government?  Did it have its secretariats, its

         21  administrative organs, were the members given salaries

         22  and so on and so forth?

         23       A.   Well, taking into account the conditions

         24  under which the government functioned, in practical

         25  terms, for the most part, it was not able to perform

Page 3163

          1  its functions in a regular way.  There were not enough

          2  financial resources, and also the general situation in

          3  the area was such that it was not able to function, so

          4  that it was declarative in nature for the public and

          5  for the people, whereas the true functions performed by

          6  government, it was not able to do.

          7       Q.   What was the situation in the area?  You

          8  mentioned the situation.

          9       A.   Well, at the time that the government was

         10  formed, war operations were still underway.  That is on

         11  the one hand.  Secondly, the government had a rather

         12  bad image vis-à-vis the population because the greatest

         13  part of the people who were members of the government

         14  in the course of May and June had left the area for

         15  different reasons.  They had left with their families.

         16  And I think that it is this factor which is essential

         17  as well when looking at the government's image.

         18            And also it was not able to have control over

         19  the section such as Baranja, Dalj, Erdut, and so on and

         20  so forth.

         21       Q.   What locality did the government control, if

         22  we can say that?

         23       A.   Well, conditionally speaking, it controlled

         24  Baranja and the area around Erdut, Dalj, Borovo Selo,

         25  and all the Western Srem region, which means from

Page 3164

          1  Vukovar towards the border, and Ilok, towards Ilok and

          2  Sid, it had no control, no competences over that

          3  locality.

          4       Q.   You said a moment ago that Slavko Dokmanovic

          5  was also a member of the government.  Can you tell us

          6  how long you have known Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic?

          7       A.   Well, I've known Slavko Dokmanovic from the

          8  mid 1970s, because we worked in the same enterprise.

          9       Q.   You say that you worked in the same

         10  enterprise.  What kind of worker was Slavko

         11  Dokmanovic?  Can you tell us something about that?

         12       A.   Well, as I had a leading function in the

         13  firm, we very often spoke about the cadres, the

         14  personnel that we had at our disposal.  We had 120

         15  university graduates.  And Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was a

         16  highly esteemed man as a professional for the area in

         17  which he was a professional, and also he was highly

         18  respected as a man, as a personality, because it was a

         19  mixed enterprise, which means that there were Croats

         20  and Serbs employed there, but we didn't pay attention

         21  to who was what nationality.

         22            But at certain moments here and there, if

         23  some conflict situations would break out, he was always

         24  very reasonable in trying to quell passions, not only

         25  political conflicts but others as well.  So he was a

Page 3165

          1  man who was very reasonable, conciliatory, and always

          2  ready to find a way out and to help people out.

          3       Q.   Do you know the details concerning the

          4  election of Dokmanovic for Minister in the government?

          5       A.   Yes.  As I said a moment ago, I spoke about

          6  the image of the government, and as the assembly was

          7  made up of individuals mostly from the villages and the

          8  government members had fled from the area, then for

          9  certain individuals, there was problems of the

         10  elections, partially for myself as well.

         11            However, for Slavko Dokmanovic, Slavko

         12  Dokmanovic had a fairly poor image starting out from

         13  the fact that his behaviour, his conduct in 1991 was

         14  seen to be a traitor to Serbian interests, that he had

         15  betrayed Serbian interests, and he was criticised as

         16  the President of the Municipal Assembly for allowing

         17  the police station to move from Vukovar to Vinkovci and

         18  the internal affairs unit, and he was also criticised

         19  for leaving the National Council, he was criticised

         20  publicly, the council that was set up in Srb, and so he

         21  was anathema on the part of many Serbs.  So that there

         22  were considerable problems regarding his election as a

         23  member of the government.

         24            However, at the intervention of Mr. Hadzic

         25  who, on two occasions, had to take the rostrum and

Page 3166

          1  speak about his professional qualities because it was

          2  to be a government with members who did not deal in

          3  politics alone but were professionals in their own

          4  right and were respected as professionals in their

          5  particular spheres.

          6       Q.   You mentioned that you yourself had some

          7  problems in the elections for a government member.

          8  Could you tell us what that was all about?

          9       A.   Well, on the 26th of August, I left Vukovar

         10  with my family and I lived in Novi Sad, and it was only

         11  at Goran Hadzic's invitation prior to the formation of

         12  the government that I came from there and, of course,

         13  all the people who had remained in the area.  I was

         14  treated as not having protected Serbian interests

         15  sufficiently.  That was the attitude towards us and

         16  myself.

         17       Q.   Why did you, on the 26th of August, 1991,

         18  leave Vukovar?

         19       A.   On the 6th.

         20       Q.   So not August but June.

         21       A.   It was in June.

         22       Q.   No, no.  What date did you leave Vukovar?

         23       A.   The 28th of June.

         24       Q.   Why?

         25       A.   Well, the situation was common knowledge, and

Page 3167

          1  with the victory of the HDZ and HDZ coming into power,

          2  there were verbal pressures exerted, first of all, and

          3  then the media of the Republic of Croatia began to

          4  exert pressure either through the official government

          5  representatives on the position and status of the Serbs

          6  and the difficult situation that they would encounter

          7  in times to come.

          8            On the other hand, there was a lot of

          9  pressure exerted, telephone conversations, threats --

         10            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, speech is very

         11  intermittent at the moment.

         12       A.   There was obstruction by the police.  And

         13  after May the 2nd --

         14            THE INTERPRETER:  It's very difficult to

         15  follow now.  Intermittent speech.  We can't follow.

         16       A.   The National Guard members came.  There was

         17  daily shooting during the day as well as during the

         18  night.

         19            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm afraid we can't hear

         20  the speaker.

         21       A.   Serbian houses were set fire to as well as

         22  businesses.

         23                 (Pause in proceedings)

         24            MR. PETROVIC:

         25       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, I hope you can hear me now.

Page 3168

          1       A.   Yes, I can.  I can hear you perfectly well.

          2       Q.   Well, let us go back to when you left

          3  Vukovar.  When was that and why?

          4       A.   Shall I repeat?

          5       Q.   Yes, please.

          6       A.   I left Vukovar on the 28th of June together

          7  with my family.  The reason I left Vukovar -- there

          8  were several reasons.  In the course of 1990, there

          9  were verbal pressures brought to bear against the

         10  Serbian population, either on the part of the official

         11  authorities or via the media, public information

         12  media.  I considered that it was not -- the situation

         13  was not yet critical if it was only verbal pressure.

         14  However, at the beginning of 1991, there was an

         15  escalation of pressure on the Serb population.  It

         16  began with people being sacked from work, replaced from

         17  leading functions, there was gunfire in the town, both

         18  during the day and during the night.  And after the 2nd

         19  of May, Serbian facilities were shelled, blown up.

         20            Can you hear me?  Yes?

         21       Q.   Continue, please.

         22       A.   Yes.  Serbian businesses and houses, there

         23  were killings, as happened in Sotin, Brsadin, in

         24  Vukovar, and at the same time, the civilians took up

         25  arms, they were members of the HDZ, and they went out

Page 3169

          1  into the streets of Vukovar, and there was a

          2  concentration of the members of the National Guard, the

          3  Zengas, and in addition to the other historical

          4  emotional reasons that I don't want to go into at this

          5  point.

          6       Q.   Do you know how many people left Vukovar at

          7  the time that you're talking about, the Serbs, I have

          8  in mind?

          9       A.   Well, it's difficult to make an assessment

         10  because this migration began in March 1991 and went on

         11  to the middle or end of July.

         12       Q.   If you do not have the precise data, can we

         13  say that the majority of the population left Vukovar or

         14  remained in Vukovar?  I'm speaking about the Serb

         15  population.

         16       A.   Well, we must take a look at the population

         17  structure, and we must be conscious of the fact that

         18  the pressure was exerted on the prominent Serbs, for

         19  the most part, whether they had private businesses, the

         20  owners of private businesses, or those working in

         21  different firms; and over 80 percent of those people,

         22  those prominent Serbs, had left Vukovar.  It is

         23  difficult to expect pensioners, elderly pensioners to

         24  leave, and they probably did not feel that pressure.

         25  They might have felt it emotionally but not

Page 3170

          1  physically.  It was the prominent Serb citizens who

          2  felt the pressure.

          3       Q.   On the 19th of November, were you at the

          4  government meeting that was held in Erdut?

          5       A.   Yes, I was.

          6            MR. PETROVIC:  Could the witness be shown

          7  Exhibit D53, please?

          8       Q.   Would you take a look at this document,

          9  please, sir, and tell us what it is about?  What is the

         10  document before you?

         11       A.   It is the minutes from the meeting held -- it

         12  is the 17th session held on the 19th of November, 1991,

         13  in Erdut.

         14       Q.   Could you please tell us something about that

         15  document?  Can we see from the document that it was a

         16  government meeting in question?  Does it show that at

         17  the government meeting there was a set agenda?  Can we

         18  see from the document that the agenda was put forward

         19  and then adopted by the government members?  Does it

         20  show who was present at the meeting?  Could you tell us

         21  about those technical elements of the minutes, please?

         22       A.   Everything that you said can be seen in this

         23  document.

         24       Q.   So there was a set agenda which was

         25  discussed?

Page 3171

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   And how was the agenda determined?

          3       A.   The agenda was usually determined by an

          4  invitation to attend the meeting or, at the meeting

          5  itself, if the invitations were not -- could not be

          6  handed out to the majority of government members, then

          7  it was read out at the meeting.

          8       Q.   Could you take a look at page 2 of the

          9  minutes and the conclusions that were adopted?  We are

         10  particularly interested in item 5 of the adopted

         11  conclusions.  Would you read it out and tell us what

         12  you can --

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  Once again, please.  We

         14  lost that.

         15       A.   To be quite frank, I do not recall that this

         16  conclusion was brought in.  But if this is the official

         17  minutes and if the minutes state this, then it must

         18  have been, but I do not think that this conclusion

         19  could have been implemented under the prevailing

         20  conditions because the situation was quite different at

         21  the given time.

         22       Q.   Could you tell us whether there were any

         23  contacts between the government of the district and the

         24  army, command of the army units, whether they had an

         25  exchange of information between the two structures and

Page 3172

          1  whether there was a relationship of subordination

          2  between the government and the JNA, the JNA and the

          3  government?  How did all this function?

          4       A.   Well, as far as I was informed and at the

          5  meetings that I attended, there were no official

          6  contacts of this kind.  Now, whether some individual

          7  members of the government did, in fact, contact JNA

          8  units, I can't say.  I couldn't tell you that.

          9       Q.   Did the units of the JNA who were in the

         10  locality of the Serbian district, did they take orders

         11  from the government of the Serbian district?

         12       A.   No, they did not.

         13       Q.   Did the JNA units have any responsibility

         14  about informing of their plans or the actions

         15  undertaken?

         16       A.   No, they did not have this responsibility.

         17       Q.   In the areas which were liberated after the

         18  war operations had come to an end, was military rule

         19  established or was there civilian power and authority?

         20       A.   Well, for a certain time, there was military

         21  rule, military administration, but we succeeded later

         22  on in setting up an executive council in the Vukovar

         23  region; for example, this was somewhere at the end of

         24  November or the beginning of December.

         25            However, there were some major problems in

Page 3173

          1  this respect.  It was difficult -- things were

          2  difficult for civilian administration to be

          3  established.

          4       Q.   When was civilian administration established

          5  in the Vukovar municipality?

          6       A.   It was somewhere at the end of December, I

          7  believe, but only in set areas, not everywhere, and

          8  set --

          9       Q.   In set areas?  Territorially speaking or for

         10  the departments?

         11       A.   No, I'm talking about the departments and

         12  activities of the municipality.

         13       Q.   Which ones?

         14       A.   Production organisation, the organisation of

         15  supplies for the civilian population because, you know,

         16  it was winter.  There was no heating, there was not

         17  enough food.  And for the most part, in respect to the

         18  material resources that we had, we were not able to

         19  satisfy needs, fully to satisfy needs.

         20       Q.   Would you take a look at item 3 of the

         21  minutes now, please, in the document that you have

         22  before you, and tell us what item 3 is about?  What did

         23  you agree upon in item 3?

         24       A.   Item 3, in item 3, we agreed on the following

         25  day, that is to say, on the 20th of November, to hold a

Page 3174

          1  meeting of those members of the government who wanted

          2  and were able to come to Vukovar, and the basic reason

          3  for bringing in this decision, making that conclusion,

          4  was to improve the government's image vis-à-vis the

          5  public because the government image was very bad,

          6  particularly with regard to the Vukovar population, in

          7  relation to the Vukovar population.

          8            And we also wanted to discuss possibilities

          9  for organising production and supplies for the civilian

         10  population and to see how matters stood, what the

         11  situation was actually like in Vukovar.

         12            However, the meeting was not binding, was not

         13  obligatory, and it was not an official government

         14  meeting because many members did not come.  They were

         15  not able to go to Vukovar --

         16       Q.   Could you repeat?  Could you repeat the last

         17  sentence, please?  Could you repeat the last sentence?

         18  You said --

         19       A.   Not all the members of the government

         20  attended.  They could either not come because they were

         21  prevented from coming or they considered that it was

         22  not necessary for them to come because it was only at

         23  the following meeting that we were to discuss the

         24  situation in Vukovar.

         25       Q.   For a meeting of the members of the

Page 3175

          1  government to be called an official meeting, what

          2  conditions must be fulfilled for it to be a government

          3  session?

          4       A.   Well, it is -- invitations must be sent out

          5  officially, containing an agenda, because every

          6  government member was duty-bound to -- they had certain

          7  tasks with regard to the agenda; that is to say, either

          8  to determine the agenda at the session itself and keep

          9  the minutes and to get the minutes for the next session

         10  (sic) and to adopt the minutes or not adopt the agenda.

         11       Q.   That is to adopt the agenda of the previous

         12  session?

         13       A.   Yes, that's right.

         14       Q.   What is necessary for government decisions to

         15  be valid?  Do you need to --

         16       A.   You must have the members of the government

         17  present and that the proposed conclusions be adopted by

         18  the majority.

         19       Q.   Did you, on the 20th of November, attend the

         20  meeting of the government members in Vukovar?

         21       A.   Yes, I did.

         22       Q.   How many government members attended the

         23  meeting?

         24       A.   Well, I can't give you an exact figure

         25  because it was seven years ago, which is a long time.

Page 3176

          1  I can remember some of the names, such as Goran Hadzic,

          2  Vitomir Devetak, Susa Vojin, (redacted), Bogdan

          3  Vorkapic, I was there myself, and I think

          4  Mr. Koncarevic was there too.

          5       Q.   Was Mr. Dokmanovic at the meeting?

          6       A.   Yes, Mr. Dokmanovic as well.

          7       Q.   Let us begin with the 20th.  When did you

          8  arrive in Vukovar?

          9       A.   I arrived somewhere before 1.00 p.m.

         10       Q.   Where did you arrive?  Where did you come to?

         11       A.   The administrative building of the VELEPROMET

         12  in Vukovar, which is at the entrance to Vukovar from

         13  the Negoslavci route.

         14       Q.   Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic in VELEPROMET?

         15       A.   Yes, I did.

         16       Q.   You said a moment ago that Mr. Dokmanovic

         17  attended the meeting that was held in the VELEPROMET

         18  building.  Could you tell us precisely where the

         19  meeting was held?  VELEPROMET is a large compound.

         20       A.   The meeting was held in the room in the hall

         21  within the VELEPROMET enterprise of Vukovar.

         22       Q.   Which building; do you know?

         23       A.   Yes, at the entrance.  On the left-hand side,

         24  you had the porter's lodge and, on the right-hand side,

         25  the building that the meeting was held in.  The first

Page 3177

          1  door was the entrance door to the hall where the

          2  meeting was held.

          3       Q.   Was Slavko Dokmanovic present throughout the

          4  meeting that you're talking about?

          5       A.   As far as I recall, nobody left the room

          6  during the meeting, and Slavko Dokmanovic was present.

          7  I know that he even took the floor in connection with

          8  the autumn sowing season and as regards to the produces

          9  of Vukovar and sowing, harvest.

         10       Q.   Do you know if the Prime Minister, Goran

         11  Hadzic, left the meeting at any time, the government

         12  meeting, the meeting that was held?

         13       A.   Possibly, possibly he left the hall because

         14  he usually left the hall to make statements for the

         15  press during previous meetings.

         16       Q.   How long did the meeting last?

         17       A.   I think it lasted about one hour.

         18       Q.   When did the meeting end; could you remember?

         19       A.   It ended sometime after 3.00 p.m.

         20       Q.   And where did you go after that?

         21       A.   I had come from the direction of Sid, and I

         22  went -- I went back.

         23       Q.   On that day, when was the last time that you

         24  saw Mr. Dokmanovic?

         25       A.   After the meeting was completed, I saw him

Page 3178

          1  once again, we greeted each other, we said good-bye to

          2  each other and members of the government, and we also

          3  agreed as to when and where to hold the next meeting,

          4  that is the session.

          5       Q.   Do you remember how Slavko Dokmanovic was

          6  dressed on that occasion?

          7       A.   Well, most of the members of the government

          8  at that time were not wearing civilian clothes because

          9  they lived in that area and -- you know that it was a

         10  very difficult time for them, there was no electricity,

         11  no water, et cetera, so Mr. Dokmanovic was also wearing

         12  some kind of green uniform.  Whether this was a hunting

         13  uniform or something else, I don't know, but he was not

         14  wearing civilian clothes.  He wore some kind of

         15  greenish multi-coloured uniform.

         16       Q.   Since you've known Mr. Dokmanovic for quite a

         17  while, could you tell us something about him?

         18       A.   I already stated in my responses that he was

         19  very well-respected in the company as he was a good

         20  expert for agriculture and that he was also respected

         21  amongst the village population because I used to go to

         22  his village for football matches and all kinds of

         23  village festivities, meetings, meetings of the plant in

         24  Trpinja, for example.  He was a very rational,

         25  realistic man, of a conciliatory nature, both as a

Page 3179

          1  worker in his company and as a politician who carried

          2  out various functions in that period.

          3            You must bear in mind the fact that Slavko

          4  Dokmanovic was accepted as President of the Municipal

          5  Assembly of Vukovar, he was elected President, although

          6  half of the government was Croatian, there were 50

          7  percent Croats and 50 percent Serbs, so he was accepted

          8  by both of them, and if he had not been accepted by

          9  both of them, he couldn't have been elected President

         10  of the Municipal Assembly, which was not the case.

         11       Q.   Let us go back for a while, and I would like

         12  Defence Exhibit 48 to be shown to the witness, and I

         13  would kindly ask the witness to tell us what this thing

         14  is, and I would like the witness to tell us whether

         15  these were the clothes that Slavko Dokmanovic was

         16  wearing on the 20th of November and also on prior

         17  occasions that you met him and later on as well.

         18       A.   Yes, it looks like this uniform.  I cannot be

         19  100 percent sure about the pattern and colours, but

         20  this is the kind of uniform he was wearing.

         21       Q.   Thank you.  You know that before the

         22  International Criminal Tribunal, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic

         23  has been charged with participation in the killing of

         24  200 people at Ovcara.  Could you give us your comment

         25  about that?

Page 3180

          1       A.   I don't think that Slavko did that, and there

          2  are two reasons for my belief:  First of all, because

          3  of his public image, he was the kind of person that

          4  could not show up at Ovcara because I believe that most

          5  of the Serbs who happened to be there would have killed

          6  him as well.  And the second reason is his emotional

          7  and mental set-up and his character that he

          8  demonstrated in previous occasions and in connection

          9  with events that had taken place before that in

         10  Vukovar.

         11            MR. PETROVIC:  Thank you very much.  I have

         12  no further questions for this witness.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  We will now take

         14  a 20-minute recess.

         15                 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

         16                 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:  All rise.  Please be seated.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann.

         19            MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you.

         20                 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

         21       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, are you able to hear me?

         22       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

         23       Q.   When were you appointed the Minister of

         24  Finance for the government of the Serbian District of

         25  Eastern Slovenia, Baranja and Western Srem?

Page 3181

          1       A.   On the 25th of September, 1991.

          2       Q.   And who was it that actually appointed you to

          3  that position?

          4       A.   The Assembly of the government of the Serbian

          5  District of Baranja, Eastern Slovenia, Western Srem.

          6       Q.   And were you a member of that government

          7  prior to September?

          8       A.   No.

          9       Q.   Did the government operate and exist prior to

         10  September?

         11       A.   Since I lived in Novi Sad at the time, until

         12  the invitation by Mr. Hadzic to join the government, I

         13  was not aware of that.  I was not aware of its

         14  existence.

         15       Q.   After you joined the government, are you able

         16  to tell us how often the government met in order to

         17  have its meetings?

         18       A.   Well, usually every 10 to 15 days.

         19       Q.   And at these meetings were all the Ministers

         20  present or were there occasions when there were

         21  meetings of lesser than the full number of Ministers?

         22       A.   Most often not all Ministers were present.

         23       Q.   And when you had meetings, did you have

         24  people attend, who were not government ministers, to

         25  advise you on current matters, such as the general

Page 3182

          1  military situation in the district?

          2       A.   People who were in charge of military issues

          3  were not present, people who coordinated with the JNA.

          4  However, Assistant Ministers were present and

          5  Presidents of local communes were present as well.

          6       Q.   You had a Minister for military matters,

          7  didn't you, someone who was responsible for military

          8  matters, a Minister for Defence?

          9       A.   Yes, as far as I can remember, we had a

         10  person like that within the government.

         11       Q.   And the Minister for Defence, was he the

         12  person that would brief the government on the current

         13  military situation?  And I am talking generally in the

         14  autumn and late part of 1991.

         15       A.   Well, sometimes he would inform us about the

         16  situation, but most often we knew about the situation

         17  through the media.

         18       Q.   Now, you speak of attending this meeting at

         19  Erdut on the 19th of November 1991.  What time of day

         20  did the meeting take place?  Do you remember?

         21       A.   I think that it was held in the morning.

         22       Q.   And can you remember where it was held,

         23  actually, in Erdut, what part of Erdut?

         24       A.   The meeting was held in a resort in Erdut

         25  which belonged to a company, IPK, from Osijek.

Page 3183

          1       Q.   Now, you've had a look at the minutes of that

          2  meeting, Exhibit D53.  Would you look at that exhibit

          3  again for me, please.  Can I take you to the final --

          4  it's the last page on my version, but it's at the end

          5  of item 2.  There is a series of five paragraphs

          6  following item 2, starting, "The following conclusions

          7  were unanimously adopted".  Do you see that?

          8       A.   Yes, I can see it.

          9       Q.   Now, looking at paragraph numbered 1, what

         10  was the nature of the Proclamation that was going to be

         11  given to the citizens of Vukovar?

         12       A.   As far as I can remember, and again it all

         13  happened seven years ago, we had to have a Proclamation

         14  to the effect that the citizens should remain calm,

         15  that they should not destroy property, because each war

         16  implies looting and similar incidents, so in that sense

         17  we wanted to react.  The winter was approaching and we

         18  had to survive the oncoming -- the upcoming winter, and

         19  I think that the Proclamation pointed in that sense, in

         20  that direction.

         21       Q.   Now, when was it intended that this

         22  Proclamation would be made?  What day or date?

         23       A.   I couldn't remember that at this point.

         24       Q.   Do you think it may have been intended to be

         25  proclaimed on the 20th of November, the next day when

Page 3184

          1  you went to Vukovar?

          2       A.   No.

          3       Q.   You seem rather certain about that.  Why?

          4       A.   Well, because simply the Proclamation was

          5  supposed to be disseminated through the media, and at

          6  that time in Vukovar such things did not function.

          7  There were no media in Vukovar at the time.

          8       Q.   Are you saying that there was no members of

          9  the media attended Vukovar on that day, the 20th of

         10  November, 1991?

         11       A.   There were representatives of the media, yes.

         12       Q.   Well, then, this was something that would

         13  have needed to have been done reasonably --

         14       A.   Yeah, but this is one thing.

         15       Q.   The Proclamation is something that the

         16  government would have been anxious to have proclaimed

         17  rather urgently, wouldn't you, as a government?  You

         18  wouldn't have wanted to sit around on something like

         19  this?

         20       A.   Yes, but Mr. Caslavocic, Mr. Ilija Petrovic,

         21  as far as I remember, were not present at the meeting,

         22  and at the same time were not able to draft it.  So

         23  even if we wanted to make a public Proclamation, we

         24  didn't have it.  They were supposed to draft it and at

         25  the same time the Proclamation was supposed to pass

Page 3185

          1  through the government for adoption, and only after

          2  that it could be made public.

          3       Q.   Can we move onto the next item, if we can,

          4  number 2.  Now, there's a reference there to the Blue

          5  Helmets, which are UN forces.  Do you see that?  Can

          6  you see that?

          7            THE INTERPRETER:  We can't hear the witness.

          8            MR. NIEMANN:  We are having some difficulties

          9  at the moment.  We've lost the sound of your voice,

         10  unfortunately.  So if you would just bear with us for a

         11  moment.

         12       Q.   You may have sound back again.  Can you hear

         13  me now?

         14            THE INTERPRETER:  I think that the witness

         15  can hear us, but we cannot hear anything.

         16                 (Pause in proceedings)

         17       Q.   Can you hear me now, Mr. Vojnovic?  Can you

         18  hear me now Mr. Vojnovic?  Can you hear me now

         19  Mr. Vojnovic?

         20       A.   Yes, I can.

         21       Q.   Thank you very much.  Sorry about that.

         22            Mr. Vojnovic, the second paragraph relates to

         23  the government's views regarding a proposal of sending

         24  in the Blue Helmets.  Can you tell me, what were the

         25  views of the government on that, and perhaps you might

Page 3186

          1  just give us a bit of background to it?

          2       A.   Again, as far as I remember, the government

          3  did accept the arrival of Blue Helmets.

          4       Q.   This was a proposal that UN forces would be

          5  sent into the Vukovar area?

          6       A.   Such was the proposal, yes.

          7       Q.   Now, Mr. Vojnovic, it's true, is it not, that

          8  there was a distinction to be made between the JNA --

          9  at that particular time between the JNA operating in

         10  the Republic Serbia as opposed to the Republic of

         11  Croatia?

         12       A.   I don't understand your question.

         13       Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll just go to paragraph 3, if

         14  we might.  That speaks there of a range of joint

         15  meetings with the Republic -- representatives of the

         16  Republic of Serbia and the JNA.  Do you see that?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And in paragraph 5 you speak of the JNA units

         19  being subordinate to the government of the Serbian

         20  District, that is your government?  Do you see that?

         21       A.   Yes, I can.  Yes.

         22       Q.   Now, isn't it the position that you wanted to

         23  have --

         24            MR. PETROVIC:  Excuse me, when the Prosecutor

         25  is quoting paragraph 5, item 5, he said that they were

Page 3187

          1  above the JNA units, that they will be.  I would kindly

          2  ask to make the distinction between the tenses.  They

          3  are, as opposed to they will be.  Please kindly bear

          4  this in mind when you ask your questions.

          5            MR. NIEMANN:  I don't understand the

          6  objection, Your Honour.  I understand his words.  I

          7  don't understand his meaning.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  We were told by the Defence

          9  Counsel and the interpreters that actually this

         10  document in item 5 -- is it item 2.5 is mistranslated.

         11  It should read as follows, "That JNA units shall be

         12  subordinate to the Serbian District on its territory."

         13  Not "are", "shall be".

         14            MR. NIEMANN:  I wasn't aware of the fact that

         15  I suggested anything else, other than future tense.

         16  Thank you.  I may have misspoke, Your Honour.  If

         17  that's the case.

         18       Q.   In any event it doesn't matter.  The point I

         19  am making, isn't it true that the JNA units were to be

         20  subordinated to the government of the Serbian district,

         21  and in order to achieve that, you wanted to have

         22  discussions with the Republic of Serbia and the JNA,

         23  and so that the two items were linked?

         24       A.   Even if we wanted to have that kind of

         25  meeting, if the government -- in view of the functions

Page 3188

          1  that it had, I don't think that such a meeting ever

          2  took place.  This was a simple wish, for the government

          3  to be above the JNA units.

          4       Q.   Well, you had a Minister of Defence who

          5  presumably would have some sort of a military formation

          6  under his control, wouldn't he?

          7       A.   As far as I know, he did not, because the

          8  formations that were at our disposals were simply

          9  non-existent.  We did have village guards organised in

         10  Serbian villages, who had been organised on their own,

         11  and the government had no influence whatsoever over

         12  those village guards.

         13       Q.   What about Mr. Arkan's forces; were they at

         14  your disposal at the time?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   Now, when you went to Vukovar on the 21st of

         17  November, 1991, where did you leave from?

         18       A.   From Sid via Orolik and towards Vukovar.

         19       Q.   When did you see -- first see Mr. Dokmanovic

         20  when you went to Vukovar on that day?

         21       A.   I saw him sometime around 1.00 p.m.  After

         22  1.00 in the afternoon.

         23       Q.   And who was he with?  Did you remember?

         24       A.   He was with Rade Leskovac, and he was

         25  also with the representatives of the Kladovo

Page 3189

          1  Municipality, representatives of Jagodina, because

          2  before the war Vukovar and Svetozarevo had been twin

          3  cities.

          4       Q.   On that day were you dressed in a military

          5  uniform or were you in civilian clothes?

          6       A.   I was wearing civilian clothes.

          7       Q.   And can you give us -- was it a suit or a tie

          8  or can you give us a description as best you can of

          9  what you were wearing?

         10       A.   No.  I mean, it was not a suit and a tie, of

         11  course not.  I had a simple shirt, a pullover and a

         12  jacket.  And because I did not live in the area of that

         13  particular district, but in Novi Sad where conditions

         14  were much more favourable than there, yes, this was the

         15  kind of clothes I was wearing that day.

         16       Q.   And during the time that you were with the

         17  government, at all stages did you wear civilian

         18  clothes, did you?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Now, when you attended the government meeting

         21  on the 20th of November at VELEPROMET, apart from

         22  government members who were there, what military

         23  personnel attended the meeting?

         24       A.   As far as I can remember, the meeting was

         25  attended by a Colonel of the JNA who was presiding over

Page 3190

          1  the meeting, so to speak.

          2       Q.   Did you know his name?

          3       A.   I think his surname is Vojnovic.

          4       Q.   I take it, no relation to you?

          5       A.   No.  We come from different areas.

          6       Q.   And apart from Colonel Vojnovic, was there

          7  any other military person there, either from the JNA

          8  or other military personnel?

          9       A.   As far as I can remember, no, there were no

         10  other such members.

         11       Q.   What about Arkan, was he there?

         12       A.   No, he did not attend the meeting.

         13       Q.   Now, you said that the government image at

         14  that time was poor, particularly in relation to the

         15  population of Vukovar; is that correct?

         16       A.   Not quite poor, but it was not good either.

         17       Q.   And that was because people such as -- well,

         18  the government and people such as Mr. Dokmanovic hadn't

         19  adopted a hard line; is that correct?

         20       A.   Yes, that's probably one of the reasons.

         21       Q.   And so one of the objectives of this meeting

         22  that you sought to achieve was to demonstrate,

         23  especially to the people of Vukovar, that the

         24  government was now about to get tough?

         25       A.   No.

Page 3191

          1       Q.   Well, I put it to you that this was what you

          2  were trying to achieve, and that this is why you took a

          3  decision at this meeting to make sure that all the

          4  extremists from the Croatian side, as you would have

          5  called them, were dealt with summarily?

          6       A.   I don't know when I used the expression

          7  Croatian extremist.  Are you referring to me?  I mean,

          8  this is not something that was on our minds.

          9       Q.   Well, I'm just putting it to you that that's

         10  what the discussion was about; the discussion was about

         11  getting tough in dealing with people from the Croatian

         12  side who you saw as being the perpetrators of this

         13  military action?

         14       A.   But we didn't have any kind of competences or

         15  possibilities to act, because this was all within the

         16  authority, within the control of the JNA.  We could

         17  only deal with civilian issues, and even that was not

         18  possible for us to carry out in an efficient manner,

         19  let alone military issues.

         20       Q.   Did members of the government, during the

         21  time that you were at VELEPROMET, inspect or go and see

         22  Croatian persons who were being held as prisoners in

         23  any part of the VELEPROMET complex?

         24       A.   I don't remember that detail.  During the

         25  meeting nobody left the room.  I don't know whether

Page 3192

          1  anything happened after the meeting.

          2       Q.   Were you aware at the time that there were

          3  people there who were being detained by either the JNA

          4  or the Territorial Defence at VELEPROMET?

          5       A.   No, I was not aware of that, and it was not

          6  possible for us to move around freely.  We simply -- we

          7  went directly to the room from the gate, because we had

          8  to pass a number of checkpoints before the gate.  We

          9  were supposed to show documents in order to get into

         10  Vukovar.

         11       Q.   Once you were in Vukovar, though, was it

         12  possible for you to drive around and look at the state

         13  of the destruction, wasn't it?

         14       A.   This is what you are saying.  I was not able

         15  to do that, and I don't know anything about that.

         16       Q.   And why weren't you able to do it?

         17       A.   Well, simply I didn't dare to move around.  I

         18  simply stuck to VELEPROMET and I wanted to go back as

         19  soon as possible.  Whether a government member was able

         20  to do that, I don't know.

         21       Q.   You said that after the meeting on the 20th

         22  of November at VELEPROMET you then met momentarily with

         23  the members of the government and agreed on the time

         24  and venue of your next meeting; is that your evidence?

         25       A.   No.  No.  I said that we had said good-bye to

Page 3193

          1  each other because the next -- the meeting had already

          2  been agreed upon and we agreed that the meeting would

          3  be held on the 22nd in Erdut.

          4       Q.   Why wasn't there records kept of this meeting

          5  of the government?

          6       A.   Because this was not a working meeting of the

          7  government.

          8       Q.   But, surely, if the ministers of the

          9  government get together and have a meeting and there

         10  are representatives from the JNA present, that's a

         11  significant event, isn't it?

         12       A.   No.  We didn't even know that we would meet

         13  with the representatives of the JNA.  When we arrived

         14  to the room, this JNA Colonel was already there, and

         15  the government was not supposed to move around Vukovar

         16  the way they wanted.  So, as I told you, there was

         17  several controls, several check-ups already at the

         18  arrival, and at the gate to VELEPROMET we had -- there

         19  was a checkpoint, and only after we had shown them our

         20  documents we were then allowed to proceed to the room

         21  where the meeting was held.

         22       Q.   How could you possibly have hoped to make an

         23  impression upon the people of the City of Vukovar as a

         24  government, if you met in private, behind closed doors,

         25  and you kept no record of what was discussed?

Page 3194

          1       A.   We didn't even know what the situation in

          2  Vukovar was.  We saw that the situation would be more

          3  or less normal, that we would be able to move freely

          4  around the town of Vukovar.  We were rather surprised

          5  when we arrived there.

          6       Q.   Now, you said that you didn't believe that

          7  Mr. Dokmanovic would go to the Ovcara farm, because if

          8  he did the Serbs there would kill him.  How do you know

          9  that?

         10       A.   I didn't say that.  I said that he didn't

         11  dare go there, because he had a very poor image,

         12  because of all the events that had taken place

         13  beforehand, between 1980 and the take-over by the

         14  Croatian government, when he was replaced by the

         15  Croatian government as President.  So that was the

         16  reason that I offered to you, the reason as to why he

         17  didn't dare show up at Ovcara, let alone decide about

         18  anything that was happening there.

         19       Q.   Well, if he wanted to change his conciliatory

         20  image, one of the best ways he could have done that,

         21  wouldn't it, would be to go to Ovcara on that day?

         22       A.   No, because passions were running high at

         23  this time, and for him this would have been the worst

         24  possible moment to do such a thing.

         25            MR. NIEMANN:  I have no further questions,

Page 3195

          1  Your Honour.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Petrovic.

          3            MR. PETROVIC:  Just a minor thing in the last

          4  response to -- the last answer to one of the questions

          5  of Mr. Niemann.

          6                 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic

          7       Q.   A reference is made to the period between

          8  1980 and the take-over.  I presume that the witness had

          9  the year of 1990?

         10       A.   Yes, I did.  I apologise.

         11       Q.   And one more thing.  You said that the next

         12  meeting was convened, from the 22nd, Friday, in Erdut.

         13  Could you please have a look at the transcript that is

         14  in front of you.

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Item 3 of the minutes where it says where the

         17  next government -- the next meeting of the government

         18  was supposed to be convened.  I presume that you

         19  misspoke when you said Erdut instead of Beli Manastir?

         20       A.   No, I don't understand.  The minutes are from

         21  the 19th of November, so on that meeting it was agreed

         22  where the next meeting of the government would take

         23  place, that is on the 22nd of November 1991 in Erdut at

         24  9.00.

         25       Q.   Could you please read out item 3.

Page 3196

          1       A.  "Goran Hadzic, President of the government, is

          2  hereby informing members of the government that it is

          3  necessary, due to the situation in Vukovar, for the

          4  members of government to assemble on Wednesday, 20th of

          5  November, in Vukovar.  At Friday, 22nd of November, a

          6  meeting, a session of the government is being convened

          7  in Beli Manastir at 9.00."

          8       Q.   So, therefore, we are talking about Beli

          9  Manastir, not Erdut?

         10       A.   Yes, yes, you are right.

         11       Q.   So you didn't misspeak?

         12       A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

         13       Q.   One more clarification. Throughout this time,

         14  throughout the existence of the government of the

         15  Serbian District, did you live in Novi Sad; is that

         16  correct?

         17       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         18       Q.   No further questions.  Thank you.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  I gather there is

         20  no objection to the witness being released?

         21            Thank you so much for giving evidence.  You

         22  may now be released.

         23                 (The witness withdrew)

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  I suggest that maybe we start

         25  with one more witness.  Yes, we have some time left.

Page 3197

          1            MR. FILA:  This is witness Milos Vojnovic,

          2  and I asked your permission to question the witness

          3  yesterday, if you recall.

          4            THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Vojnovic, good morning.

          5  Could you please stand and read out the solemn

          6  declaration?

          7                 WITNESS:  MILOS VOJNOVIC

          8            THE WITNESS:  Good morning.  I solemnly

          9  declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

         10  and nothing but the truth.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         12                 Examined by Mr. Fila

         13       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, will you tell us your name and

         14  your surname, what school qualifications you have,

         15  where you graduated and when?

         16       A.   My name is Milos Vojnovic.  I graduated from

         17  the Faculty of Law in Belgrade in 1971.

         18       Q.   Did you live in Vukovar in the period that we

         19  are interested in, that is to say 1990 to 1991?

         20       A.   Yes, I have been living in Vukovar since

         21  1961.

         22       Q.   Do you live there now?

         23       A.   Yes, I do.  I live there now.

         24       Q.   What were you by profession in 1990, 1991?

         25  What job did you hold?

Page 3198

          1       A.   I was a judge in the Municipal Court in

          2  Vukovar.

          3       Q.   Did you leave Vukovar in 1991, and if so,

          4  why?

          5       A.   Yes, I left Vukovar on the 24th of May, 1991

          6  because I was made to do so -- persecuted.

          7       Q.   Did they try to arrest you?

          8       A.   Yes.  On that day at about 9.30 my colleague

          9  was arrested in the court.  He is Sretiac Slavoljub.

         10  He was a judge as well.  And somewhere at around on

         11  noon on the same day, the representatives of the

         12  Croatian police came to arrest me, but due to certain

         13  problems that arose as to identity, identification,

         14  this did not happen.  And in the afternoon hours of

         15  that same day I was cautioned that there would be a

         16  fresh attempt to arrest me, and then with the help of

         17  some friends and acquaintances I succeeded in fleeing

         18  from Vukovar.  And somewhere around 6 p.m. on that same

         19  day they came to my flat to arrest me.

         20       Q.   Did you and Judge Slavoljub have immunity?

         21       A.   We had immunity, as proclaimed by the

         22  Republic of Croatia, if I recall correctly, and a lot

         23  of time has gone by, usually for criminal acts related

         24  to performing our professional functions.  I do not

         25  know whether this immunity was limited to that or

Page 3199

          1  others.

          2       Q.   Did the political forces have any authority

          3  to take away this immunity?

          4       A.   No, they had nothing in writing, no written

          5  warrants or any other documents, apart from their

          6  professional ID's, which they used to identify

          7  themselves with.

          8       Q.   Did the function of President of the Court

          9  exist?

         10       A.   Yes, it did.

         11       Q.   What nationality was he?

         12       A.   He was Petar Mrksic and he was a Serb by

         13  nationality, an ethnic Serb.

         14       Q.   What happened to him?  Was he replaced?  Was

         15  he relieved of his duty?

         16       A.   Yes, he was replaced.  He was replaced

         17  sometime -- in those days after our suspension.  I

         18  don't know the exact date.  I think that it was at the

         19  end of May, but otherwise he was a very successful

         20  court president and performed his functions for more

         21  than ten years.

         22       Q.   Will you repeat the name of the president of

         23  the court, his nationality, why he was replaced?

         24       A.   His name is Petar Mrksic.  He was a Serb by

         25  nationality and he was replaced for three official

Page 3200

          1  reasons.

          2            If I recall, it was stated that he waged a

          3  bad cadres policy, personnel policy, that he did not

          4  work sufficiently in solving concrete cases before him,

          5  and that there were very poor inter-human relations in

          6  the court.

          7            Of course, none of this was correct because

          8  the Court of Vukovar under his leadership was one of

          9  the most successful courts to function in with the

         10  Republic of Croatia.  So it was his national

         11  affiliation.

         12       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, after leaving Vukovar, did you

         13  in the government of SAO, which was set up later on,

         14  did you hold a function in that government?

         15       A.   In the second half of August, I don't exactly

         16  remember the date, I think it was towards the end of

         17  August, I was called by some people to be included into

         18  some processes that were ongoing and topical at the

         19  time.  And after the so-called government, to call it

         20  that, was set up, I was given the post of assistant for

         21  jurisprudence for the Justice Department, if I recall,

         22  and I think I do because I was present.  That was on

         23  the 25th of September 1991?  In Beli Manastir.

         24       Q.   Whose deputy were you?

         25       A.   I was assistant, not deputy, but assistant.

Page 3201

          1  The assistant to Mr. Susa Vojin.  He was the Justice

          2  Minister, Vojin, Susa.  Yes, that's what it was called.

          3       Q.   What functions did you perform later on?

          4       A.   Afterwards, a short time later, I think on

          5  the 9th of October, 1991, the judges were elected for

          6  that locality and I was chosen -- elected President of

          7  the Provincial Regional Court.  It was the sort of top

          8  instance institution of justice.  And there were no

          9  more operations in that area.

         10       Q.   Can I say that it is true that there were

         11  Regional Courts and Municipal Courts?

         12       A.   Yes.  They weren't called that, but that was

         13  in fact what they were, that you had the Basic court,

         14  you had the Higher Court and the Regional Court, the

         15  Provincial Court.  And it was the judges who were

         16  elected on that day, the 9th of October.

         17       Q.   When did that Justice Department come into

         18  effect, if it ever did?

         19       A.   Well, we had to confront a series of problems

         20  right at the very start, both legal problems and

         21  technical problems, so that the process of

         22  implementation and translation into practice lasted a

         23  long time, and apart from the fact that we were formed,

         24  it was in 1992 that we began to function seriously as a

         25  court.

Page 3202

          1            But we were present there before that because

          2  it was considered that on territories where there were

          3  no war operations that an institution of this kind

          4  should exist of an exclusively civilian nation, so that

          5  we could see to law and order and for that institution

          6  to have the power of jurisprudence and jurisdiction.

          7  But it was a slow and unwieldy process.

          8       Q.   How did you perform the functions of justice

          9  in the Srpska Krajina region?

         10       A.   Well, I remained in my post until April or

         11  May of 1996 when, due to the prevailing circumstances,

         12  I left.

         13       Q.   We didn't hear you.

         14       A.   When I entered the realm of politics in 1996.

         15       Q.   What were you before that?

         16       A.   I was President of the Regional Court and

         17  afterwards of the Supreme Court, when the courts

         18  conjoined.

         19       Q.   What function do you hold at the present

         20  time?

         21       A.   I am president of the Joint Council -- we

         22  didn't hear -- of Eastern Slovenia, Baranja and Western

         23  Srem.

         24       Q.   Within the composition of the present

         25  Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

Page 3203

          1       A.   Yes, it is a component part of the Republic

          2  of Croatia and the Joint Council is an institution

          3  which was set up by the Erdut meeting as an institution

          4  by which the Serbs should articulate some of their

          5  rights and interests.  Therefore, it is not an organ or

          6  parent authority, but a political consultancy,

          7  administrative institution, and we maintain continuous

          8  contacts with the Croatian institutions.

          9       Q.   Who elected you to that post and how were you

         10  elected?

         11       A.   I was elected by the Joint Council.  It is a

         12  collective body having 50 representatives from all the

         13  municipalities of the area west -- inhabited by the

         14  Serbs.

         15       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, I have been asking you all this

         16  for one reason.  Do you know that in the course of your

         17  career, legal career, somebody has been convicted of a

         18  war crime in the area of Srpska Krajina, Beli Manastir,

         19  or was somebody charged?

         20       A.   Yes, charged and sentenced.

         21       Q.   And is he still carrying out that sentence?

         22       A.   I have for two years left this legal

         23  department and I don't know his fate, but I can't

         24  recall -- and I can't recall his name and surname at

         25  the moment, but he was sentenced to 20 years

Page 3204

          1  imprisonment, and that sentence was confirmed and is

          2  legally binding for legal -- criminal acts performed to

          3  the detriment of the people of Hungarian and other

          4  Croatian nationalities.

          5       Q.   Was there any other instances of persecution

          6  of the Serb nationality for criminal acts against

          7  Croats, Hungarians, et cetera?

          8       A.   Well, at this point in time I think there

          9  were, but I cannot recall, because I was in the Supreme

         10  Court, and this was done -- these were cases that came

         11  before the lower courts.  So I can't speak of the

         12  individual cases, but I do believe that such cases did

         13  exist.  Thank you.  But our general orientation was,

         14  for the most part, classical crimes, and of course of

         15  the civilian part of the population.

         16       Q.   Mr. Vojnovic, do you know an inhabitant of

         17  Vukovar called Berghofer, Dragutin Berghofer?

         18       A.   Yes, I do.  I have known him for many years,

         19  and I can say that I have known him on three counts;

         20  that is to say, I know him from the time that he worked

         21  in an enterprise in Vukovar to which I came.  I was

         22  head of the legal service of that particular firm.  I

         23  think it was in 1979.  And later on I met him again --

         24       THE INTERPRETER:  We lost that, I'm afraid.  We

         25  lost what he said.

Page 3205

          1       A.   He had a lot of --

          2       Q.   We heard about the first count, we heard how

          3  you first met him, but we didn't hear what you said

          4  after that.

          5       A.   We know him as somebody who came before the

          6  courts as a -- as civil parties and he appeared in

          7  these court cases.  I was a civilian judge and dealing

          8  with property cases in which he appeared as a party in

          9  cases -- alimony, cases concerning alimony and family

         10  law.

         11            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I object to any

         12  evidence -- I object to any evidence given by a judge

         13  of a litigant before that judge in relation to a

         14  witness in these proceedings, if that's what the

         15  purpose of this evidence is.

         16            I submit, Your Honours, that it's highly

         17  inappropriate and improper for a judge to come before

         18  this Tribunal and testify about proceedings that have

         19  gone on before that judge in a case that he might have

         20  dealt with in his capacity as a judge.  In my

         21  respectful submission, it demeans the Tribunal to

         22  receive and accept that evidence, especially if it's a

         23  matter that goes to the character of the witness.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  The objection is sustained.

         25            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, may I ask the witness

Page 3206

          1  in that case about what he learned about Mr. Berghofer

          2  outside his duty as a judge?  Nothing to do with

          3  himself as a judge.

          4       Q.   Well, don't speak about the lawsuits, but how

          5  do you know him on the third count you mentioned?

          6       A.   I was not going to speak about the individual

          7  lawsuits.  I just said that I met him as a party in the

          8  court.  I did not wish to speak of individual suits,

          9  because you are duty bound not to speak about lawsuits,

         10  and I will not.

         11       Q.   Yes, that is in answer to the objection

         12  raised.

         13       A.   On the other hand, I met Mr. Berghofer again

         14  as somebody who likes football, as a football fan,

         15  amateur football fan.  I played football for many years

         16  and we met on the sports fields.

         17       Q.   What kind of man was he?  What was his

         18  character?  Was he respected?

         19       A.   Well, I'm not a psychiatrist, and it is

         20  difficult for me to say.  But all I can tell you is

         21  that amongst us he was considered to be somebody of a

         22  freer conduct and behaviour and relationship towards

         23  his responsibilities.  I don't want to enter into any

         24  other qualifications which might step out of the

         25  frameworks of a general --

Page 3207

          1       Q.   We didn't hear the last part.

          2       A.   -- communications between citizens.

          3       Q.   Yes, carry on.  Do you know whether he said

          4  the truth?  Was he known as somebody who always talked

          5  and said the truth or was inclined to make things up or

          6  exaggerate matters?

          7       A.   Well, as I say, he was freer in his conduct,

          8  in his behaviour, and gave the impression of somebody

          9  who was not always serious.  He was not always a

         10  serious person.

         11       Q.   When you say he was freer in his conduct, in

         12  his behaviour, what do you mean by that?

         13       A.   Well, I don't think he was criminal in his

         14  conduct, but he was very free in going about the town,

         15  very sort of liberal.  He talked to people.  Not very

         16  serious.  For example, one detail:  When I came to the

         17  enterprise that I worked in, that he had left his job

         18  because he didn't wish to accept a more serious

         19  technological and work discipline that the new

         20  leadership and I amongst it insisted upon.

         21       Q.   You mean he wasn't a good worker?

         22       A.   Well, at the time when I came to the

         23  enterprise, he was considered to be a pretty poor

         24  worker, and as we insisted on technological and working

         25  discipline, he did not like that, and he left the

Page 3208

          1  enterprise.

          2       Q.   You said that he told various stories and

          3  that he was not always serious.  What do you mean by

          4  that that?  Were they false stories?

          5       A.   Well, they were usually humorous stories,

          6  jokes, sports topics, talk on sports topics and the

          7  like.

          8       Q.   And as a family man, can you tell us

          9  something about that?  Did he take care of his family?

         10  Was he a responsible family man?

         11       A.   Well, I don't think I am going to disclose

         12  any secrets.  It is a well-known fact that he divorced

         13  his wife.

         14       Q.   We don't want anything from court practice,

         15  just what you know privately.  Only privately.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila, to what extent is

         17  this relevant to our case?  His family life, I mean,

         18  that's nothing to do with our case.

         19            MR. FILA:  Very well.  Very well.  I withdraw

         20  the question.

         21       Q.   So let us summarise.  You have given us

         22  certain qualifications of the man?

         23       A.   As I experienced him, yes.

         24       Q.   Would you give us a definition of whether it

         25  is somebody to be believed?  Is he a man to be

Page 3209

          1  believed?  Was he a well respected man amongst you all?

          2       A.   Well, amongst us he was considered to be

          3  somebody who liked to joke.

          4       Q.   A little bit of a charlatan, perhaps.  Thank

          5  you.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  I wonder, Mr. Niemann, do you

          7  think you need to put many questions, because we could

          8  carry on?

          9            MR. NIEMANN:  I don't think I need to put any

         10  questions, Your Honour.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  No questions.

         12            All right.  Mr. Vojnovic, thank you for

         13  testifying.  You may now be released.  Thank you.

         14                 (The witness withdrew)

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  We may now adjourn and we'll

         16  reconvene at 2.00.

         17            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, we have two witness

         18  -- only two witnesses for this afternoon, so you can

         19  plan your day quite easily.  No tension there.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Do you mean only two through

         21  video link?

         22            MR. FILA:  No video links at all.  No more

         23  video links.  Just two witnesses here.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  So that both Gradina and

         25  Leskovac have dropped out.

Page 3210

          1            MR. FILA:  They haven't turned up.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  So we have Susa Vojin and

          3  Zlatic Radoslav?

          4            MR. FILA:  Yes.  And they are waiting to be

          5  heard here.  And the Colonel that I mentioned, I will

          6  be able to question only tomorrow, not before tomorrow.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  What about the expert

          8  witness?

          9            MR. FILA:  He has brought this material,

         10  these documents with him, so I would like to leave that

         11  for tomorrow.  Those are the documents that he was

         12  brought with him that I have to examine.

         13            As far as expert witnesses are concerned, we

         14  have a translation of the document, you will be

         15  receiving it in the course of the day, and he will be

         16  heard after Mr. Dokmanovic's statement.  So that the

         17  plan is as follows:  I complete the two witnesses

         18  today, if Your Honours agree, tomorrow we are going to

         19  start off with the Colonel, because he has brought

         20  documents with him that I have asked to see, and they

         21  have seen fit to give me those documents.  And then

         22  afterwards I would like to start with Mr. Dokmanovic

         23  and probably the day after the expert witness.  And

         24  that would complete my case, as I promised you.

         25            The only thing is that I have a new task

Page 3211

          1  governing the circumstances -- concerning the penalty

          2  which I was not able to complete.  So I need one extra

          3  day or a day and a half in July.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Because we may finish even on

          5  Friday at lunchtime.  I wonder whether we could use the

          6  afternoon.

          7            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, I'm sure that we will

          8  be completing on Thursday, that we will be finished on

          9  Thursday.  And on Friday, if Mr. Niemann can start with

         10  his opposite evidence, rebuttal, then that would be

         11  fine, the rebuttal on Friday.

         12            MR. NIEMANN:  We would certainly like to take

         13  advantage of Friday, if we could, call a witness, one

         14  witness.  The only thing that concerns me is coming to

         15  some arrangement with Mr. Fila, that he has actually

         16  closed his case.  We don't want to start our rebuttal

         17  evidence until he has closed.

         18            So it may be that the evidence that he still

         19  wishes to call, that he wants the day and a half for in

         20  June, is something that we can agree upon and there

         21  would be no difficulty, and if it's something that he

         22  wants to put forward.  But my only concern is that I

         23  would ask that he close his case before we present our

         24  rebuttal evidence.  But if he does that, then we would

         25  like to take advantage of Friday to at least call one

Page 3212

          1  witness.  I think we have one witness we could call.

          2            MR. FILA:  Your Honours -- well, let's make

          3  it simple.  This week I am completing my evidence,

          4  so-to-speak, which are important to determine whether

          5  Dokmanovic is guilty or not.  After that I have no

          6  further evidence.  The evidence that I am talking about

          7  for June will be the family and friends of Dokmanovic,

          8  to give a character sketch of him, and an expert.  I

          9  think we are going to have Mr. Aleksic, if I can find

         10  him, or somebody else if not, that has practised in

         11  Yugoslavia.

         12            So in practical terms on Thursday,

         13  Mr. Niemann, I am completing my Defence case.  Have I

         14  made myself clearer?

         15            MR. NIEMANN:  That, Your Honours, wouldn't be

         16  a difficulty for us, if it's limited and restricted

         17  only to character evidence and Mr. Dokmanovic, and

         18  indeed if he wants to call some evidence about

         19  sentencing, we have no problem with that either.  It's

         20  really no different than what the position was before.

         21  But we'd ask that it be restricted to that, because we

         22  don't want to have to embark upon our rebuttal case

         23  only to have it interrupted by further Defence evidence

         24  which we are going to have to then rebut again.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  That's what Mr. Fila

Page 3213

          1  promised, that in June --

          2            MR. FILA:  I'm giving you my word.  If not,

          3  shall I sign my statement for Mr. Niemann?  Do you want

          4  me to sign?

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  So we may start again at

          6  2.15?  Thank you.

          7                 --- Luncheon recess at 12.42 p.m.

          8          .

          9          .

         10          .

         11          .

         12          .

         13          .

         14          .

         15          .

         16          .

         17          .

         18          .

         19          .

         20          .

         21          .

         22          .

         23          .

         24          .

         25          .

Page 3214

          1                 --- On resuming at 2.17 p.m.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon.  Mr. Fila or

          3  Mr. Petrovic?

          4            Mr. Petrovic, our next witness is Mr. Susa

          5  Vojin?

          6            MR. PETROVIC:  Our next witness is

          7  Mr. Zlatic, Radoslav Zlatic.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, before the

          9  witness comes in, I have good news, finally, on these

         10  prints.  I understand that they have been made, and so

         11  I should be able to provide those to the court in the

         12  morning.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Tomorrow morning?

         14            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Yes, sir.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  So this is one of

         16  the witnesses for whom we have no witness statement.

         17  Am I correct in saying there is no witness statement?

         18            MR. PETROVIC:  We do have a statement, a

         19  statement had been made and it was submitted, and you

         20  will also be given one copy of the statement now, but

         21  it is a short one.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         23            MR. FILA:  It's going to be very brief, Your

         24  Honour.

         25                 (The witness entered)

Page 3215

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon.  May I ask

          2  you to read the solemn declaration?

          3            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

          4  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          5  truth.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may be

          7  seated.

          8                 WITNESS:  RADOSLAV ZLATIC

          9                 Examined by Mr. Petrovic

         10       Q.   Mr. Zlatic, do you remember that on the 28th

         11  of January, 1998, you gave a statement to the

         12  investigator of the Fila law firm?

         13            I would kindly ask this to be shown to the

         14  witness.

         15            And if this is your statement, would you

         16  please say so?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18            MR. PETROVIC:  If there are no objections, I

         19  would tender this statement into evidence as a Defence

         20  exhibit, and could this please be given the next number

         21  in order together with the English translation,

         22  please?

         23            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Defence Exhibit

         24  111.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  I see there is no objection,

Page 3216

          1  so it is submitted into evidence.

          2            MR. PETROVIC:

          3       Q.   Mr. Zlatic, did you complete secondary

          4  traffic school in Osijek?

          5       A.   Yes, I did.

          6       Q.   What kind of work did you do afterwards?

          7       A.   I worked as a driver.

          8       Q.   And where were you employed?

          9       A.   I was employed in the Panonija Osijek company

         10  and I worked there for 21 years until the beginning of

         11  the crisis in Yugoslavia when I was evicted from

         12  Osijek, that is, I was forced to flee together with my

         13  family to Belgrade, where I was accommodated in the

         14  Kasino Hotel.  This is my story.

         15       Q.   How long have you been working as a driver

         16  for the Ministry of Justice in Belgrade?

         17       A.   When I came to Belgrade, I met Mr. Susa, and

         18  at that time he was proposed Minister of the Serbian

         19  governments, Baranja, Eastern Slavonia, and Srem, and

         20  since I had a new car, a new Zastava 128, I used to

         21  drive him to the government sessions and meetings in

         22  Erdut, and I used to drive that vehicle for about six

         23  or seven months, until it was destroyed, but I remained

         24  with Mr. Susa throughout the war and I used to work for

         25  the Ministry of Administration and Justice.

Page 3217

          1       Q.   Thank you.  So you drove Mr. Susa in your own

          2  car, your private car?

          3       A.   Yes, that's correct.

          4       Q.   Do you know Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and how

          5  long have you known him?

          6       A.   I've known Slavko Dokmanovic because of the

          7  sports.  My village, the village of Cepin, and Trpinja

          8  used to play football together in the district of

          9  Osijek, and I used to know him and Mr. Trosic, and when

         10  the whole thing started, I used to see him on TV.  And

         11  after I became a refugee, I used to see him at the

         12  meetings of the government.  I was never personally

         13  introduced to him, but I used to know him by sight very

         14  well.

         15       Q.   On the 20th of November, 1991, were you in

         16  Vukovar?

         17       A.   Yes, I was.

         18       Q.   When were you told that you would go to

         19  Vukovar on the 20th of November?

         20       A.   Well, we used to meet every evening in the

         21  Kasino Hotel, me and Susa, and he told me to go to

         22  Vukovar -- that we were going to Vukovar to get some

         23  fuel because there was a shortage of fuel, and I

         24  happened to get some near the Zvezda stadium, and at

         25  7.00 a.m., Voja arrived and we set out for Vukovar.

Page 3218

          1       Q.   So you left for Vukovar from Belgrade?

          2       A.   Yes, that's correct.

          3       Q.   When did you arrive in Vukovar?

          4       A.   We arrived in Vukovar sometime after 9.00

          5  a.m., I don't know what exactly -- what time it was.  I

          6  didn't look at my watch.  The road conditions were

          7  quite bad.

          8       Q.   Where exactly did you arrive in Vukovar?

          9       A.   We went to Vukovar via Sid, Banovci, Orolik,

         10  and Negoslavci, and this is the route we took to get to

         11  Vukovar.

         12       Q.   What did you do in the compound?  Where did

         13  you stop?

         14       A.   We when we arrived there, we saw some

         15  soldiers at the gate.

         16       Q.   Could you tell us once again where exactly

         17  you stopped?

         18       A.   We stopped at VELEPROMET, which is situated

         19  at the entrance to Vukovar, from the direction of

         20  Negoslavci, at the left side.  So we introduced

         21  ourselves to the person who was at the gate, so they

         22  let us in.

         23       Q.   So you were within the compound of the

         24  VELEPROMET company?

         25       A.   Yes.  I knew the location from before because

Page 3219

          1  I used to be a driver and I used to drive goods to that

          2  area.

          3       Q.   Who did you see in the yard of VELEPROMET?

          4       A.   There were a lot of people there and most of

          5  them were members of the government:  Mr. Susa,

          6  Mr. Vojnovic.  I also saw Mr. Arkan there, Mr. Kosic,

          7  and this person -- yes, Cznevevic (phoen), he's from

          8  the area of Osijek, he used to go to school with my

          9  sister, he was Minister of Education in that

         10  government, and all members of the government were

         11  there.

         12       Q.   Did you see anyone filming the area?

         13       A.   Yes, I did.  These people came sometime after

         14  12.00, maybe around 1.00 in the afternoon, there was

         15  some kind of delegation, including Slavko, who was with

         16  them, and he was filming the area with a camera.

         17       Q.   At one point did members of the government

         18  withdraw from the area that they were staying and did

         19  they go to some kind of gathering?

         20       A.   I met several colleagues of mine, drivers who

         21  are also from Vukovar and who used to work with me in

         22  the Panonija company.  At one point I was told that

         23  they were leaving because a meeting was supposed to

         24  start, and Susa told me not to stick around, not to --

         25  go anyway.

Page 3220

          1       Q.   Do you remember how long these members of the

          2  government stayed in that room?

          3       A.   For about an hour maybe, an hour and a half,

          4  approximately.  Mr. Susa told me that they would have

          5  some short meeting of the government to show something

          6  at the deliberation of Vukovar, and this was supposed

          7  to be held in Vukovar because they did not have any

          8  better place to hold that kind of meeting.  So that was

          9  the reason why that gathering or meeting took place

         10  there.

         11       Q.   Let us just clarify.  You saw someone filming

         12  the yard in VELEPROMET.  I assume you didn't mean

         13  Mr. Dokmanovic.

         14       A.   No, no, no, it was somebody else, a plump

         15  person, same height as myself.  He had some kind of

         16  green jacket on him.

         17       Q.   After the gathering was finished, where did

         18  you go?

         19       A.   After it was finished and after they left the

         20  meeting of the government, there were a lot of people

         21  in the yard, and Voja spent some time, maybe 20 minutes

         22  or half an hour, talking to some people, and a column

         23  of vehicles had been formed in the meantime, including

         24  military trucks, and they were all civilians, nobody

         25  was wearing any kind of uniform, and they went in the

Page 3221

          1  direction of Croatia.

          2       Q.   In which direction did you go?

          3       A.   We went, we took the same road back, via

          4  Negoslavci.

          5            MR. PETROVIC:  I would kindly ask that the

          6  witness be shown a videotape of the Defence marked D2,

          7  and I think the hour is 15.26, and then -- 15.36, I'm

          8  sorry, and I would then kindly ask the witness to

          9  describe the area.

         10                 (Videotape played)

         11       Q.   Where is this?  Could you hold on a second?

         12  Could we have the monitor be switched on for the

         13  witness, please, and could you please rewind the tape a

         14  little bit to the beginning of this particular

         15  segment?

         16            Where is this?  Do you recognise this area?

         17       A.   Yes, I do.  This is the exit from Vukovar.

         18       Q.   Could you stop the tape, please?

         19       A.   Yes.  This is the road towards Negoslavci.

         20       Q.   Are these the last houses of the town?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   And the next houses are where?

         23       A.   In Negoslavci.

         24       Q.   Could we go on, please?

         25                 (Videotape played)

Page 3222

          1       A.   There used to be a huge hole here.

          2       Q.   Could we stop the tape, please?  Yes.  Thank

          3  you.

          4            Could you recognise this area?

          5       A.   Now, this is quite difficult.

          6       Q.   Could you go on with the tape just a little

          7  bit and slowly?  In slow motion, please.

          8            If you don't recognise the area, it doesn't

          9  matter.

         10       A.   No, it's really very difficult.  All I can

         11  see is this bus here and some bushes.

         12       Q.   Take a look at the right-hand side.

         13       A.   No, I mean, really, it's very difficult to

         14  see anything.

         15       Q.   Slowly I think you will be able to recognise

         16  the next segment.

         17       A.   Could you stop the tape here?  This is

         18  Negoslavci, I believe.  This is the entrance to the

         19  village after the curve.  The road from Vukovar to

         20  Negoslavci is pretty straight and then there's a curve

         21  and then it's Negoslavci.

         22       Q.   Thank you.  Did you stop anywhere on the road

         23  after Negoslavci?

         24       A.   The column was moving quite slowly, and

         25  before we entered Orolik, we stopped, and they wanted

Page 3223

          1  to know why we were waiting.  There were some people

          2  from the Red Cross there who were distributing food to

          3  the people on the buses, some cookies, juices, and

          4  things like that, and I noticed that there was a

          5  commotion at the entrance, and I remember that there

          6  used to be a military checkpoint there, a kind of swing

          7  gate, some kind of temporary swing gate, and a soldier

          8  was there all the time.  I noticed that there was a

          9  commotion there, and I wanted to see what was happening

         10  and why we were waiting.  I wanted to know why civilian

         11  vehicles couldn't be let through.

         12            When I got there, I saw Mr. Dokmanovic, who

         13  was having an argument with this soldier.

         14       Q.   When exactly was that, what time of the day?

         15       A.   It was getting dark, it was at dusk.  It was

         16  a nice day, a sunny day, but in the afternoon hours,

         17  fog settled in.  The argument was quite heated, and I

         18  was actually surprised to see Slavko to have such an

         19  argument with a soldier.

         20            But at one point, from the house which was on

         21  the left-hand side, from the direction of Vukovar, ten

         22  soldiers appeared with automatic rifles and they cocked

         23  their rifles, and at one point I thought to myself --

         24       Q.   When did you last see Slavko Dokmanovic on

         25  that day?

Page 3224

          1       A.   Well, this was around 5.00 p.m.

          2            MR. PETROVIC:  Thank you very much.  No

          3  further questions.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Niemann?

          5                 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

          6       Q.   Mr. Zlatic, I don't know whether it was a

          7  mistake in translation or not, but did you say that

          8  Mr. Susa worked for the Justice Ministry in Belgrade?

          9  Was that what you said?

         10       A.   No, no, no.  I didn't say that.  Mr. Susa was

         11  Minister of Justice and Administration -- that's how it

         12  was called at that time -- with the government of

         13  Western Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem.  No, he didn't

         14  work for the Serbian Ministry of Justice.  This does

         15  not appear in my statement and I didn't say that.  I've

         16  been with this man from the very beginning.

         17       Q.   I know it didn't appear in your statement.

         18  It's just that I saw that as something that was said in

         19  the transcripts.  Never mind.

         20            On the day that you set off to go to

         21  VELEPROMET, how did you know that you should go there,

         22  to that particular place in Vukovar, VELEPROMET?

         23       A.   Well, on the evening, Susa told me that I

         24  would be going and that there would be a session of the

         25  government in Vukovar, so I didn't have to ask where

Page 3225

          1  and why.  As we were approaching the area, the first

          2  houses and the area near VELEPROMET, at that moment I

          3  was told that the meeting would be held there.

          4            I used to know Vukovar very well from before

          5  the war.  Osijek is not very far from Vukovar.  I used

          6  to work there very often, so I knew the area and I knew

          7  where VELEPROMET was.

          8       Q.   Now, when you arrived at VELEPROMET, where

          9  did you park the car?

         10       A.   Inside the compound.  We entered the compound

         11  of VELEPROMET.

         12       Q.   Did you leave the car parked in there, inside

         13  the compound?

         14       A.   Yes, inside the compound.

         15       Q.   You were there for some time, from 8.00,

         16  9.00, right through until the end of the meeting?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Did you leave VELEPROMET at all that day?

         19       A.   No, I did not.  There was a kitchen there

         20  where they were distributing food and water to women

         21  and children.  There was even some cooked food, beans,

         22  I think I remember they had for lunch, and there was

         23  this man who was standing outside and he was

         24  distributing food from a huge pot, and I also ate there

         25  myself.

Page 3226

          1       Q.   And you didn't see vehicles or buses arriving

          2  at the JNA barracks nearby during the course of that

          3  morning?

          4       A.   No, no, I didn't.

          5       Q.   Did you see buses arriving in VELEPROMET

          6  itself?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   What time did they arrive in VELEPROMET?

          9       A.   Well, they kept coming one by one, maybe two

         10  by two.  They would enter the compound and the

         11  civilians were boarding buses, and there were also

         12  military lorries there.  As far as I heard, there was a

         13  problem, something like Croatia did not want to receive

         14  them, to have them back, and that the area was heavily

         15  mined.  This is something that I heard later on.  They

         16  went via Bosanski Samac, these women and children.

         17  This took place -- this happened for several days.

         18       Q.   Now, apart from the women and children, did

         19  you see any men that had been taken prisoner, Croatian

         20  men?

         21       A.   Yes, yes, there were some people who were

         22  there.  I mean, nobody -- as far as I could tell,

         23  nobody was captured, they were simply there, and

         24  apparently they had expressed a wish to go and they all

         25  left.  There were lots of men there, elderly men, but

Page 3227

          1  there were more women and children.

          2       Q.   When did you see, first see Mr. Dokmanovic,

          3  about what time?

          4       A.   I saw him sometime before 1.00 p.m.  I really

          5  couldn't tell you the time.  I never thought that I

          6  would be a witness here.  This all took place a long

          7  time ago.

          8       Q.   Yes, of course you can only tell us what best

          9  you can remember.

         10            Who did he arrive with?  Who did

         11  Mr. Dokmanovic arrive with?

         12       A.   As far as I could tell, they were waiting for

         13  him and he was supposed to arrive with a delegation

         14  from Serbia, some people who were involved in economic

         15  matters and things like that, people unknown to me.  I

         16  don't know how many there were, about four or five.

         17       Q.   Did you see him arrive?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   But you didn't recognise the people he was

         20  with?

         21       A.   No.  I mean, these people were unknown to

         22  me.  I had not seen them before.

         23       Q.   Now, shortly after Mr. Dokmanovic arrived,

         24  did they then have the government meeting?

         25       A.   Yes.  At one point, they withdrew to a kind

Page 3228

          1  of room which is on the right-hand side from the

          2  entrance to the compound.  They used to have their

          3  administration there.  This is where I used to report

          4  before when I would come to VELEPROMET as a driver.

          5  And this is where they went together with my Minister.

          6       Q.   Did you see any members of the government

          7  delegation set off on a tour of Vukovar at any stage

          8  either before or after the meeting?

          9       A.   I don't think they were able to leave after

         10  the meeting.  We had been there for a very short while,

         11  and it was very difficult for us.  We were waiting for

         12  our turn to join the column.  Later on I saw Slavko in

         13  Orolik at the checkpoint where this minor incident took

         14  place.  My assumption was, my conclusion was, that he

         15  had left before us.  In my opinion, there was no

         16  possibility whatsoever, no opportunity to go to

         17  Vukovar.

         18       Q.   So as best you know, they simply left

         19  VELEPROMET and went out with the convoy of buses?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   When you saw Mr. Dokmanovic at Orolik, did

         22  you hear him speaking?  Did you hear what he was

         23  saying?

         24       A.   Yes.  Why they were stopping us, why they

         25  didn't want to let us go, we were in a hurry, he had

Page 3229

          1  some visitors from Serbia, I don't know whether they

          2  were visitors or something else, we were supposed to

          3  pass, and this person was telling us that nobody could

          4  pass before they received what they needed and --

          5  anyway, this is what happened.  And I was actually

          6  surprised at the violence of the argument.

          7       Q.   Who was being violent?  Mr. Dokmanovic or the

          8  soldier or both?

          9       A.   Well, they were all quite violent, especially

         10  Mr. Dokmanovic.  He was probably very angry because he

         11  was with that delegation, he was supposed to go

         12  somewhere, and these people were members of the

         13  government of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western

         14  Srem, and soldiers wouldn't simply let anyone pass

         15  without some kind of authorisation that they were

         16  apparently waiting for.

         17       Q.   Did Mr. Dokmanovic say that he was a member

         18  of the government, if you can remember?

         19       A.   Yes, yes.

         20       Q.   When he said he was a member of the

         21  government --

         22       A.   No, it didn't help.  It didn't help.  In the

         23  meantime, these soldiers came out from that house with

         24  their rifles cocked and I was -- I started to worry

         25  about our safety.  I thought that the situation was

Page 3230

          1  quite serious because they were armed, they had cocked

          2  their rifles.

          3       Q.   How many vehicles were there held up from

          4  this delegation?

          5       A.   Well, I didn't count them.  I mean, I wasn't

          6  interested to know at the time.  We were all in a

          7  hurry.  You know, at that time it was still quite

          8  dangerous to drive along that road, especially during

          9  the night, because the road between Orolik and Sid, the

         10  Ustashas were still there some 200 metres away.  There

         11  were daily shootings.  Our soldiers were going back

         12  home and there were lots of civilians too.  So it was

         13  quite dangerous for us to pass that road during the

         14  night.  And we were in a hurry.  We wanted to leave as

         15  soon as possible.

         16            I don't know where our people went, but we

         17  went to Sid that night, we had dinner in Sid, and then

         18  after that, we left for Belgrade.  As for Slavko, I

         19  don't know where he went because -- you couldn't

         20  overtake anyone on that road.  I mean, it was a very --

         21  the road was in a very bad condition, full of holes.

         22  It was a muddy road.

         23       Q.   Did you manage to make it to Sid before it

         24  was dark?

         25       A.   No, no.  It was already getting dark in

Page 3231

          1  Orolik, and I think that we stayed there for about half

          2  an hour, even more.

          3       Q.   Now, when you left VELEPROMET, did you leave

          4  at the same time as all the buses left, the buses of

          5  all the people?

          6       A.   You know, not everyone can leave at the same

          7  time -- could leave at the same time, so we were

          8  waiting for our chance, our opportunity to join the

          9  column, and those who joined the column beforehand were

         10  able to leave before.  There were lots of vehicles at

         11  that point.  And as soon as I got my chance, I joined

         12  the column.  And probably Slavko managed to get in the

         13  column before us.

         14       Q.   Can you remember whether the buses that were

         15  in the convoy were ahead of you or behind you when you

         16  set off from VELEPROMET?

         17       A.   Both ahead of us and behind us.

         18       Q.   So you were in the middle of the convoy?

         19       A.   More or less, I think.  I don't know how many

         20  were behind me and how many were ahead of me, but I was

         21  a hundred metres away from the swing gate, and since a

         22  bus, I think, is maybe 10 or 12 metres long, there were

         23  maybe between 10 and 15 buses ahead of me and a couple

         24  of cars.

         25       Q.   Now, occasionally did you and Mr. Susa stay

Page 3232

          1  over in Erdut, overnight in Erdut, when you were there

          2  on government business?

          3       A.   Afterwards, yes.

          4       Q.   Where did you stay when you had to stay

          5  overnight rather than go back to Belgrade?  Where did

          6  you stay?  Where were you accommodated?

          7       A.   We stayed where the meeting was held.  On the

          8  top floor upstairs, there were about five or six beds.

          9  Sometimes there would be no room for us to stay there,

         10  and then we would sleep at the place that before the

         11  war used to be some kind of military training centre.

         12  There were lots of beds there, and this is where we

         13  sometimes stayed.

         14       Q.   This military training centre was the

         15  military training centre of Mr. Arkan's people, was it?

         16       A.   It's kind of pre-military.  It was used for

         17  that purpose before the war, and I don't know what

         18  purpose it served afterwards.

         19       Q.   Before the war, you mean before --

         20       A.   Yes, before the war, when I used to have that

         21  kind of training, pre-army training.

         22       Q.   But at the time that you stayed there with

         23  Mr. Susa, when you used to stay in the dormitories,

         24  that was then a training centre for Mr. Arkan's people,

         25  wasn't it?

Page 3233

          1       A.   Yes.  This is where they used to sleep, live,

          2  and work.

          3       Q.   Was there any connection that you could see

          4  between the government, the government of the Serbian

          5  district, and Mr. Arkan's military people?  I mean, you

          6  stayed in their dormitories, but was there any other

          7  connection that you observed?

          8       A.   Could you please repeat the question?  I

          9  didn't quite understand.

         10       Q.   Sure.  What I'm asking you is whether you saw

         11  any connection between the government that Mr. Susa was

         12  the Minister of Justice for and Mr. Arkan's military

         13  group that was located at these dormitories where you

         14  used to sleep occasionally?

         15       A.   No, no.  No.

         16            MR. NIEMANN:  No further questions.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Petrovic?

         18            MR. PETROVIC:  Just two short questions.

         19                 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic

         20       Q.   After Mr. Susa had left the room where the

         21  meeting was held, did you hang around in the VELEPROMET

         22  yard for a while?

         23       A.   Yes, we stayed there for a while.  He

         24  discussed things with certain people, I had started the

         25  engine, and I was waiting for my turn to leave the

Page 3234

          1  compound.

          2       Q.   But did you see Slavko Dokmanovic leave?

          3       A.   Yes, yes, I did.  We were the first ones to

          4  arrive, Voja and myself, so I was parked, I was

          5  stationed next to the gate, so I could see everyone

          6  entering and leaving the VELEPROMET compound.

          7       Q.   How did you see him leave?

          8       A.   He was sitting on the right side next to the

          9  driver, front passenger seat.

         10            MR. PETROVIC:  Thank you.  No further

         11  questions.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  I assume there is no

         13  objection to the witness being released?

         14            Mr. Zlatic, thank you for testifying in

         15  court.  You may now be released.  Thank you.

         16            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

         17                 (The witness withdrew)

         18            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, might I be

         19  excused for the rest of the afternoon?  I have a

         20  commitment in another Chamber.

         21                 (The witness entered)

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon.  Could you

         23  please read the solemn declaration?

         24            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         25  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

Page 3235

          1  truth.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may be

          3  seated.

          4                 WITNESS:  VOJIN SUSA

          5                 Examined by Mr. Fila

          6       Q.   Mr. Susa, did you make a statement to

          7  Mr. Vasic on the 14th of August -- no, on the 30th of

          8  September, '97?  Will you take a look at the document

          9  and tell us whether that is your statement?

         10            THE REGISTRAR:  It is document D112 and

         11  D112A for the translation.

         12       A.   Yes, it is.  That is my statement and my

         13  signature on the statement.

         14            MR. FILA:  If there are no objections, I

         15  tender this into evidence as D112 and D112A.

         16       Q.   Mr. Susa, did you graduate from the faculty

         17  of law and when?

         18       A.   Yes, I graduated from the faculty of law at

         19  the faculty in Osijek and I graduated in 1983.

         20       Q.   Did you, in your later career, were you the

         21  Public -- the Prosecutor in Vinkovci?

         22       A.   Yes, between 1983 and 1990, I was the deputy

         23  of the district, Public Prosecutor, and I was also the

         24  Public Prosecutor later on as well.

         25       Q.   How long did you perform that function, until

Page 3236

          1  what time?

          2       A.   Until February 1991, and officially right up

          3  to September of the same year when I was relieved of my

          4  duties.

          5       Q.   Why were you relieved of your duties?

          6       A.   I was relieved of my duties due to the fact

          7  that I had to -- I was forced to leave the Republic of

          8  Croatia.

          9       Q.   Did you have any reason to leave the Republic

         10  of Croatia?  Were you arrested or anything like that?

         11       A.   As I say, in February 1991, I was subjected

         12  to an operation, a gallbladder operation, and after

         13  that operation, I spent time recuperating at home, and

         14  on the 9th of July, 1991, within my family circle, by a

         15  special unit of the Zengara, I was arrested, and I was

         16  taken to a camp, collection camp, which was improvised

         17  at the stadium of the football club of Zupanja and

         18  Vinkovci.  I had a lot of trouble there, I was

         19  maltreated, and I was physically injured, and on the

         20  following day, in a state of that kind, I was allowed

         21  to leave the town towards Belgrade.

         22       Q.   Physical mistreatment meant you had injuries,

         23  did it not?

         24       A.   Yes, I sustained injuries of the mouth

         25  because a rifle was introduced into my mouth and it

Page 3237

          1  went right up to the right sinus channel, I lost two

          2  teeth on the occasion, and two ribs were broken on the

          3  right-hand side.  I had a dislocated shoulder and had

          4  to be treated for those injuries at the emergency

          5  centre in Belgrade.

          6       Q.   Why did they do this to you?  Why did you

          7  sustain these injuries?

          8       A.   Because the group came to our house, as I

          9  say, and my father was arrested on the occasion, and

         10  they allegedly stated that we lent our support to the

         11  insurgence in Mirkovci, it is a village near Vinkovci,

         12  and allegedly on that night there was shooting from our

         13  house in the direction of the Zengara patrol.

         14       Q.   And that of course was not true?

         15       A.   No, it was not.

         16       Q.   How long have you known Slavko Dokmanovic?

         17       A.   I met Slavko Dokmanovic for the first time on

         18  the 18th of August, 1991, at a meeting which was held

         19  in Dalj when we discussed the need to constitute an

         20  organ which should represent the government and when

         21  for Mr. Dokmanovic -- when it was stated that he was a

         22  pretender for the function of Agriculture Minister.

         23       Q.   Were you elected as Minister of Justice and

         24  Administration in the government and how were you

         25  elected?

Page 3238

          1       A.   Yes, I was elected to that function at the

          2  proposal of Goran Hadzic.  I was nominated by the Great

          3  National Assembly of the Srem district of the day,

          4  Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

          5       Q.   Who represented that Assembly and how were

          6  you elected?

          7       A.   The Assembly was represented by the deputies

          8  who, in fact, physically represented the people from

          9  the locality in such a way as in the composition of the

         10  Great National Assembly, all those were entered who at

         11  the previous elections in Croatia got the vote of the

         12  people as well as the representatives of the villages

         13  from which these people were not formally elected at

         14  the elections.

         15       Q.   Does this refer to the elections in 1990, the

         16  first multi-party elections?

         17       A.   Yes, the elections held in Croatia.

         18            MR. FILA:  I should like now to show the

         19  witness some documents that have already been accepted

         20  as Exhibits D59 -- D16 and D59, I think.  D59, please,

         21  Exhibit D59.

         22       Q.   It is the decision on the election of the

         23  President or Vice-President, Prime Minister and Deputy

         24  Prime Minister of the government of the Serbian --

         25  district of Serbia, Baranja, and Western Srem, on the

Page 3239

          1  basis of -- who wrote this decision and what was it

          2  based on?

          3       A.   The decision was written by an expert

          4  service, a professional service, that is to say the

          5  secretariat of the Great National Assembly, and noting

          6  this conclusion, I took part, I gave certain

          7  suggestions as to how it should be shaped and the

          8  formal wording, and it was adopted at the Great

          9  National Assembly, the date is stated, it is the 25th

         10  of September, 1991.

         11       Q.   It is the exact date and it enumerates all

         12  the Ministers who were elected, amongst them yourself

         13  and Slavko Dokmanovic?

         14       A.   Yes, that is correct.

         15            MR. FILA:  May we now have Exhibit D60,

         16  please?

         17       Q.   It is the law governing Ministries.  Would

         18  you look and tell us who wrote the law?

         19       A.   The law was devised in my Ministry by my

         20  associates, Mr. Milos Vojnovic and the late Mr. Nenad

         21  Stankovic.  I myself took part in it.

         22       Q.   Could you take a look at item 10, please?  It

         23  is the article which relates to the Ministry of

         24  Agriculture.  The Minister of Agriculture was Slavko

         25  Dokmanovic?

Page 3240

          1       A.   Yes, he was.

          2       Q.   Could you tell me the competencies of his

          3  activities?

          4       A.   In order to explain what his functions were,

          5  I should have to elaborate the meaning of an

          6  administration, administrative rule for the state to

          7  become a state and a region, and I must say that in

          8  that sense, Mr. Dokmanovic fulfilled his duties

          9  correctly.

         10            Therefore, first of all, he organised work on

         11  the farming collectives for the area in which we lived

         12  and the area that we controlled and he performed all

         13  the functions that meant cooperation with organisations

         14  which we did not have on the spot at the time and which

         15  dealt with the processing of farming goods so as to

         16  ensure their functioning and supplies, food supplies

         17  for the population of the area, and I must stress,

         18  which the court already knows, I'm sure, that the area

         19  we lived in was one of the best farming areas in the

         20  former Yugoslavia, agricultural areas, and therefore

         21  Mr. Dokmanovic's job was highly responsible and a

         22  highly difficult job to perform.

         23            MR. FILA:  May we show the witness Exhibit

         24  D19 now, please?

         25       A.   That is the law on Territorial Defence,

Page 3241

          1  Territorial organisation.

          2       Q.   Was that also a law which was written in your

          3  Ministry?

          4       A.   Yes, it was.

          5       Q.   And you took part in its elaboration?

          6       A.   Yes, I did.

          7       Q.   A question was raised with the Territorial

          8  organisation as to why we have municipalities which

          9  were not within your realm, for example, the

         10  Municipality of Osijek, the inhabited region of

         11  Osijek.  What do you mean by that?

         12       A.   Well, let me say that we had many people

         13  working in our various organs, bodies, who came from

         14  urban areas, from towns bordering upon us, that is to

         15  say Osijek and Vinkovci, and those individuals insisted

         16  that those two towns be incorporated into the law on

         17  Territorial organisation as something which we, at a

         18  given moment, can count on, although it was certain

         19  that at that time we were not controlling those two

         20  towns and that it was a debatable point whether we

         21  would ever succeed in controlling them.

         22            Let me stress, for example, with the example

         23  of Osijek, that a section of the town, the lower town,

         24  as it was called, was inhabited by mostly Serbs who

         25  were expelled from the area.  And that according to the

Page 3242

          1  population census of 1991, done by the organs of

          2  Croatia, that this was ascertained in that census.  So

          3  what was written was purely symbolic, which for a very

          4  brief period of time was put down on paper, whereas

          5  several months later, after we had written this down,

          6  the Municipalities of Prenj (sic) and Mirkovci was set

          7  up, which means that this symbolism ceased to exist

          8  after that.

          9       Q.   How was the territory, local self government

         10  organised?

         11       A.   The Territorial organisation was organised in

         12  pyramid form with regard to the conditions that

         13  prevailed.  At the bottom, at the base, were the local

         14  communities.  Above them, we had the municipalities,

         15  the communes, and then the government as executive

         16  power and authority which functioned.  Then you had the

         17  legislative authorities represented by the Great

         18  National Assembly and Independent Court rule at the

         19  top.

         20       Q.   Now, how did this Territorial organisation

         21  function at that level until the constitutional law was

         22  enacted; that is, since the adoption of the

         23  constitutional law?

         24       A.   Well, before that, there were elections which

         25  were held, and after the constitutional law was

Page 3243

          1  enacted, I must stress with provisional meaning, until

          2  we were able to organise elections, which, due to the

          3  conflicts that lasted, that was not possible.  We

          4  organised this in such a way as having the locals of

          5  individual villages elected their representatives.  The

          6  number depended on the size of the particular locality

          7  and number of settlements in it.  These

          8  representatives, furthermore, through meetings and

          9  joint decisions, decided, together with the government,

         10  as to who would be their representative for the

         11  municipality, and then from the municipalities, the

         12  representatives would be delegated once again,

         13  depending on the number of inhabitants, into the Great

         14  National Assembly.

         15       Q.   And that is why it is called the law on the

         16  provisional, the word is "provisional"?

         17       A.   Yes, we bore this in mind because it was

         18  truly provisional for anything to be able to function

         19  and to establish administrative rule in any way until

         20  democratic free elections could be held.

         21       Q.   And finally to conclude this, how did the

         22  system of authority function, of government function?

         23       A.   Well, unfortunately, due to the prevailing

         24  conditions, there was still armed -- there was still

         25  armed combat on both sides, it was difficult for us to

Page 3244

          1  establish the necessary discipline on this part and all

          2  this functioned very badly, I must say.

          3       Q.   In the composition of your government, did

          4  you have the Ministries for the army, the police, and

          5  did you have armed forces and a police force,

          6  particularly in November 1991, because that is the

          7  subject of our interests?

          8       A.   I must say that when we enacted these

          9  provisions, we sort of looked towards the future at a

         10  time when this would be necessary and would be able to

         11  function.  That is why formally we did have an Internal

         12  Affairs Ministry and a Defence Ministry formally.  But,

         13  unfortunately, these Ministers did not have anything

         14  much to do because neither did they have a police force

         15  which could function on the spot nor could the Defence

         16  Minister bring in any decisions because, behind him or

         17  below him, he had nobody, that is to say, he had no

         18  armed formations.

         19            MR. FILA:  Would you now take a look at the

         20  next document that we're going to show you and tell us

         21  what it purports to?  May we have a number for those

         22  exhibits, please?

         23            THE REGISTRAR:  That is document D113.

         24            MR. FILA:

         25       Q.   You have in mind the decision to conjoin the

Page 3245

          1  annexation of the territory, so three decisions.

          2       A.   I recall one particular meeting that I

          3  attended when we discussed the fact that we had a lot

          4  of problems with the armed formations which existed at

          5  the level of every inhabited region and which had no

          6  unified command.  We did not have an organ which would

          7  be able to control it, and this was necessary.

          8            First of all, because of the pilfering and

          9  looting that was taking place and it was logical, and I

         10  think that Mr. Koncarevic decided this with the

         11  military authorities, that everybody carrying weapons

         12  in our area without a uniform command be placed under

         13  the command of the Yugoslav People's Army.

         14       Q.   Did you have in mind the village watches?

         15       A.   Yes.  We only had in mind the village watches

         16  because we had nobody else carrying weapons in an

         17  organised fashion.  Had it been organised, we would

         18  have stood up against it and coming under the JNA with

         19  which we did not particularly cooperate.

         20       Q.   The date this decision was made was the 9th

         21  of October, 1990 -- was it 1991?

         22       A.   The 10th of October is the date.

         23       Q.   There must be an error.  Does that mean that

         24  after the 10th of October, the village watches had

         25  nothing to do with you?  What happened next?

Page 3246

          1       A.   Well, this need not be true in absolute terms

          2  because the village watches always found ways of

          3  retaining their autonomy with the local commanders, but

          4  this was not a problem that we were supposed to deal

          5  with but it was now a problem of the JNA.  But up till

          6  then, the local commanders, or the commanders of the

          7  village watches, found ways and means of cooperating

          8  with officers covering that particular territory so

          9  that together, strengthened by the arms they had, would

         10  enter into looting and pilfering and doing a lot of

         11  valuable stealing.

         12       Q.   Let's clear up the matter of the relationship

         13  between your government and the JNA.  What kind of

         14  relationship did you have?

         15       A.   It wasn't a good relationship because the

         16  Yugoslav People's Army did not consider us to be a

         17  serious partner, not only in military matters, which

         18  might have been true, but also in the sense of

         19  establishing administrative civilian rule which we

         20  insisted upon and which did not -- they did not agree

         21  with.

         22       Q.   Did you have any possibility of ordering the

         23  JNA anything, demanding that they perform anything?

         24       A.   No, we had to seek ways and means, each of

         25  us, as best we could, to use our friendship with

Page 3247

          1  somebody to be able to get something done, which was

          2  necessary to be able to bring life to a semblance of

          3  normality, but we did not have the possibility of

          4  calling upon one of the senior commanders and demand

          5  that something be done.  That was never the case.  We

          6  could never do that.

          7       Q.   So could I then conclude that no military

          8  forces -- that you were not an authority for any of

          9  them?

         10       A.   Yes, I'm afraid that is right.

         11       Q.   Did you, on the 20th of November, 1991, go to

         12  Vukovar?

         13       A.   Yes.  I was in Vukovar.

         14       Q.   When did you arrive?  Where did you arrive

         15  from and why did you go to Vukovar?

         16       A.   As I said, I provisionally -- temporarily

         17  lived in Belgrade, and the way in which I functioned

         18  was that I would travel from Belgrade towards Erdut,

         19  and that's what I did on that particular day.  I left

         20  from Belgrade, but not in the direction of Erdut but in

         21  the direction of Vukovar.

         22            On the previous day, that is to say the 19th,

         23  I was in Erdut, which is where the government was

         24  stationed, and Mr. Goran Hadzic informed us on the

         25  occasion that he had had talks with his associates who

Page 3248

          1  had returned from the terrain and that he was told that

          2  in the course of the following day, operations would be

          3  completed for the liberation, as we called it, the

          4  liberation of Vukovar, and that it would be a good

          5  idea, in view of our importance, which was not very

          6  great, but due to the fact that we wanted to establish

          7  quite different forms of cooperation with the Yugoslav

          8  People's Army that, on the following day, we should

          9  meet in Vukovar so as to agree upon what should be done

         10  to establish administrative civilian structures in the

         11  town and to see what the town looks like after the very

         12  long and terrible bombing that had taken place.

         13            MR. FILA:  I should like the witness now to

         14  be shown the minutes, but the minutes are in Belgrade.

         15  So can I show him my copy?  I think that the

         16  Prosecutor's office will be able to ascertain that it

         17  is the same document.  If that is possible.  It is

         18  Defence Exhibit D53, the original of which is in

         19  Belgrade.

         20            MR. WILLIAMSON:  We have no objection.

         21            MR. FILA:

         22       Q.   Is that the minutes of the meeting held in

         23  Erdut on the 19th of November?

         24       A.   Yes, it is.  Those are the minutes.

         25       Q.   Would you like to comment?  You are a lawyer,

Page 3249

          1  a legal man.  How were these meetings held from the

          2  legal aspect?

          3       A.   The government meetings were held very

          4  regularly.  As far as the government was concerned, we

          5  had the responsibility ...

          6            MR. FILA:  Ah, we found a copy, a court

          7  copy.  It's the same document.

          8       A.   Well, the members of the government had

          9  agreed not to improvise, not to take up each other's

         10  time, so we would prepare in writing all the proposals

         11  for the meetings and the conclusions of the meetings.

         12       Q.   And the agenda as well?

         13       A.   Yes.  It was always the responsibility of the

         14  government secretariat to set up an agenda, to write

         15  down an agenda.  Sometimes we had problems with this

         16  because some of the Ministers wanted to introduce items

         17  on the agenda which had not been previously written

         18  down, and we thought that we should only answer their

         19  needs sometimes when it was an urgent matter but not as

         20  standard practice.

         21       Q.   At the government meetings, was a quorum

         22  determined?

         23       A.   Yes.  No decision could be endorsed at the

         24  Great National Assembly if the proposal for a decision

         25  was made at a government meeting without a quorum.

Page 3250

          1       Q.   What do you mean by quorum?  Fifty plus one?

          2       A.   Yes, when the government takes decisions.

          3  This is so in all the systems that we have had occasion

          4  to acquaint ourselves with, the government takes a

          5  decision as a proposal for the Great National Assembly

          6  with a majority which is represented by the 50 plus one

          7  system.

          8       Q.   And the minutes that you have, was that

          9  enacted in the same way?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Were government decisions always verified by

         12  the Great National Assembly?

         13       A.   Yes, that was an obligation.  They were

         14  always verified by the Great National Assembly.

         15       Q.   I should now like to ask you to tell us, if

         16  you will, something about some of the points in the

         17  document that we're interested in.

         18            Look at page 2, please, and item by item tell

         19  us what it represents.  What does item 1 mean, that

         20  "Caslav Ocic," et cetera?

         21       A.   That is clear.  If the town has been

         22  liberated, we knew that in the town there were a large

         23  number of civilians and soldiers, regardless of whether

         24  they were Serbs or Croats, Caslav Ocic and Mr. Ilija

         25  Petrovic, who likes literary forms of expression, were

Page 3251

          1  to prepare a proclamation for the citizens of Vukovar

          2  calling upon people to respect law and order and to

          3  establish those basic elements of law and order, which

          4  would encourage people after everything that had taken

          5  place.  Mr. Caslav Ocic was to have, under item 2,

          6  prepared information about the government's views to

          7  send the blue helmets --

          8       Q.   Let's finish with item 1, please.  Was it

          9  determined when the proclamation would be given and was

         10  it to have been verified previously by the government?

         11  What does the word "preparation" mean?

         12       A.   Yes, everything that had a deadline was to

         13  have been expressed in writing.  Therefore, Mr. Ocic

         14  and Ilija Petrovic were clearly in principle in keeping

         15  with the possibilities and the time they have at their

         16  disposal, and in view of all the foregoing events,

         17  would prepare a proclamation for the citizens.

         18       Q.   And were you to verify that proclamation as

         19  the government?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Did they do that by the following day?

         22       A.   I'm not quite sure about that.  I don't

         23  remember.

         24       Q.   Let us now go on to item 2, that Caslav Ocic

         25  prepares information, what information?

Page 3252

          1       A.   At that time we discussed the need to send

          2  neutral forces of a third party to the area, and we,

          3  that is not myself but I think it was Goran Hadzic, had

          4  had preliminary talks for the establishment of a UN

          5  mission in the locality.

          6       Q.   To what aim?

          7       A.   First of all, to stabilise the region and to

          8  prevent any further conflicts from breaking out because

          9  we assessed that any war which would be prolonged, we

         10  would not be able to contend with.

         11       Q.   May we now go on to item 3?  What does this

         12  mean?

         13       A.   I have already mentioned that our work so

         14  far, in cooperation with the members of the JNA, was at

         15  a very low level.  Most of the time we said things to

         16  each other, we would agree upon certain things, but

         17  nothing was ever implemented on the ground.  There were

         18  people within the government who were close to some of

         19  the members -- some of the representatives of the

         20  Republic of Serbia and who believed that, through their

         21  mediation, a new course would set in within the JNA and

         22  that it would be allowed for the people in that area to

         23  organise themselves independently.

         24       Q.   Does that mean that until the 19th, the

         25  situation was not that way, it was not the case, before

Page 3253

          1  and after?  When was the first time you established

          2  civilian authority, first attempted and then succeeded

          3  in doing so?

          4       A.   I think that after the liberation of Vukovar,

          5  maybe a month, month and a half after the liberation,

          6  some kind of executive government was established

          7  through the executive council which was at that time

          8  presided by Mr. Rajko Bibic, until that time we had

          9  some kind of military rule that was represented by

         10  members of the Yugoslav People's Army, and before that,

         11  we had a very, very poor plan at that time for the --

         12  for the town of Ilok, which was completely under the

         13  control of the JNA.

         14       Q.   Could you please repeat that?  Neither before

         15  the 19th nor after the 19th there was no cooperation

         16  with the representatives of the Republic of Serbia?

         17       A.   Yes, I will do that.  I said that neither

         18  after the 19th was there any cooperation and nor was it

         19  the case before the 19th.

         20       Q.   I would kindly ask you to speak slowly so

         21  that we can have everything in the transcript.

         22            I would now kindly ask you to give us some

         23  explanation as to item 5.  I don't quite understand

         24  it.

         25       A.   Item 5 expresses a wish, a need, which

Page 3254

          1  unfortunately until that time or after that time was

          2  brought to life, implemented.

          3       Q.   And now, please have a look at the item 3

          4  which says that Goran Hadzic -- item 3 and under item

          5  3, Goran Hadzic hereby informs members of the

          6  government and so on.  Could you explain this to us?

          7       A.   This was more like an invitation for us to

          8  meet in Vukovar on the next day, which was perfectly

          9  clear to most of the members of the government.  They

         10  were people from Vukovar and they could hardly wait for

         11  the first possibility, first opportunity to go to

         12  Vukovar to see their houses, their friends, and I was

         13  interested in that too, although I'm not from Vukovar,

         14  but I wanted to attend, to be present at that event,

         15  which was supposed to be of a ceremonial character.

         16       Q.   As you can see, a distinction is being made

         17  here between the need for government members to be in

         18  Vukovar on Wednesday and the session of the government

         19  which is convened on the 22nd in Beli Manastir.  Are

         20  these two separate things?

         21       A.   Yes, they are.  You can see it from the

         22  text.  On the 22nd of November, a regular session of

         23  the government was held, according to the procedure

         24  which I have described.  Everybody had prepared a

         25  report on the activities, and this was not something

Page 3255

          1  that was supposed to be done in Vukovar.

          2            I think that at that time we assumed, we had

          3  some kind of idea of the situation we would find in

          4  Vukovar, and nobody thought that anything seriously

          5  could be done in Vukovar in such circumstances.

          6       Q.   Mr. Susa, would you agree with me that

          7  whatever was held in Vukovar on the 20th was not a

          8  meeting of the government?  It was not a session of the

          9  government.

         10       A.   It was not a session of the government but it

         11  was a meeting of the members of the government.

         12       Q.   Do you know whether the majority of

         13  government members were present?

         14       A.   Not all of them were there but the majority,

         15  yes.

         16       Q.   Let us see now.  When did you arrive in

         17  Vukovar?

         18       A.   I believe that we arrived in Vukovar from

         19  Belgrade around half past ten.

         20       Q.   The reason for your visit to Vukovar?

         21       A.   We wanted to be there, to gather there.  In

         22  VELEPROMET, the so-called VELEPROMET compound, around

         23  12.00.  That's what Goran Hadzic said.  And he knew

         24  that we were supposed to come from different points,

         25  but anyway, we were supposed to meet at 12.00 at the

Page 3256

          1  VELEPROMET building.

          2       Q.   At what time did you enter the VELEPROMET

          3  compound?

          4       A.   I arrived in Vukovar around 10.30 and I

          5  couldn't resist the proposal of one of our colleagues

          6  who had joined us on our trip from Belgrade to Vukovar

          7  and who insisted that we should go and see what was

          8  left of his house.  Unfortunately, nothing was left of

          9  his house, but we were supposed to move around very

         10  carefully because the town was in a horrible state and

         11  at certain points we had to bypass a number of dead

         12  bodies who were still lying around.  We had to go over

         13  some destruction, smithereens, and we also had to cover

         14  the area which was probably mined.  But although we

         15  were aware of that, we wanted to follow him, we wanted

         16  to escort him, so we reached his house and we stayed

         17  there for a while.  He was very distressed.  The name

         18  of this person is Nikola Drpa.  And after that, we went

         19  back to VELEPROMET via the same way, and I think we

         20  arrived there at about ten, quarter to twelve.

         21       Q.   At what time did you see Slavko Dokmanovic,

         22  if you did see him on that occasion?

         23       A.   I saw Slavko Dokmanovic when I got to the

         24  yard, to the compound of VELEPROMET, and he was

         25  accompanied by some people whom I had not seen before.

Page 3257

          1  These people were not members of the government, but I

          2  didn't know whether they were from Vukovar because I

          3  didn't live in Vukovar.

          4       Q.   So did Slavko Dokmanovic attend that meeting?

          5       A.   Yes, he did.

          6       Q.   Was he present there all the time, as far as

          7  you can remember?

          8       A.   I think he was present there all the time.

          9       Q.   Was there any agenda on that meeting?  Were

         10  minutes taken during that meeting?

         11       A.   Well, we thought that the meeting would be

         12  held in a much better atmosphere, and we hoped that

         13  there would be room for us for some kind of

         14  satisfaction, but the town itself and the people we

         15  found there, especially the victims that were there,

         16  made us feel really aghast at what we saw.  We were

         17  really terribly depressed with what we saw in the town

         18  and the people we ran into.

         19            So nobody -- no member of the government

         20  began the meeting.  It was some kind of low-ranking

         21  officer, maybe Lieutenant Colonel, and I believe his

         22  surname was Vojnovic, he was given to us to open the

         23  meeting.  So he formally chaired the meeting.  He was

         24  sitting at the table, or maybe he was standing next to

         25  the table in front of us, and we were sitting like

Page 3258

          1  this, the way I am sitting now facing you here in the

          2  courtroom.  So we were sitting in rows of tables.

          3            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, this might be a good

          4  time for a break or maybe -- do you want me to

          5  continue?

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  A 20-minute

          7  break?

          8                 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

          9                 --- On resuming at 3:55 p.m.

         10            THE REGISTRAR:  All rise.  Please be seated.

         11            MR. FILA:  Your Honours, I would like the

         12  tape, Defence Exhibit No. 2 be shown to the witness.

         13  The time is 15.50, VELEPROMET.  I would like to ask him

         14  whether he was there, whether he recognises some people

         15  on the video.  A very brief segment of the tape.  If

         16  you see Slavko Dokmanovic, please tell us.

         17       A.   Yes, I can see him.

         18       Q.   Who else can you see?

         19       A.   I can see Rade Leskovac, Vlado Kosic.

         20       Q.   Is this the time prior to the meeting?

         21       A.   Yes.  This is Goran Hadzic and Zeljko

         22  Raznjatovic Arkan.  This is Ljubo Mudrinic, Slavko

         23  Dokmanovic, Dusan Jaksic, Vlado Kosic.

         24       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  That would be enough.

         25  Mr. Susa, do you recognize this as the day when you

Page 3259

          1  went to Vukovar, the 20th of November?

          2       A.   Yes.  Everything that I saw on the tape tells

          3  me that this is the day.

          4       Q.   Do you want to see some more of the tape or

          5  are you sure that this was the situation on the 20th of

          6  November?

          7       A.   Yes, I am sure, the way people looked and

          8  because I saw them there.

          9       Q.   You said that the meeting was convened for

         10  12.00.  Now you can see that it's past 1.00 and the

         11  meeting has not started yet.  When did it start?

         12       A.   Well, we were supposed to gather at the

         13  VELEPROMET building around noon and the meeting started

         14  rather late because we were waiting for Mr. Hadzic.

         15  And then when he arrived, the meeting didn't start

         16  right away because we were waiting for someone to let

         17  us into the building of VELEPROMET.  So this lasted

         18  until 14.00, 2.00, when this gentleman appeared, I

         19  think it was this lieutenant-colonel by the name of

         20  Vojnovic.

         21       Q.   Can you remember the contents of the

         22  meeting --

         23       A.   Excuse me.  I apologise.  But can this

         24  monitor be turned off?  I cannot concentrate myself

         25  very well.  Excuse me, could you please repeat your

Page 3260

          1  question?

          2       Q.   When you entered the room where the meeting

          3  was held, you said before the break how the seating

          4  arrangements looked like.  Could you tell us who sat

          5  where?

          6       A.   Well, we were not put in line.  We simply

          7  entered the room and he sat next to the desk.  He was

          8  standing next to the table and then we sat on the

          9  benches, which were arranged in school-like manner.

         10  Mr. Hadzic was sitting in the first row, Zeljko

         11  Raznjatovic Arkan was also there, and I was sitting

         12  maybe also in the first row but to the right-hand

         13  side.  People sat down without any particular order.

         14  They simply took the seats that were available.

         15       Q.   Could we say that he was sitting like some

         16  kind of teacher, and would you agree with us that he

         17  conducted the meeting?

         18       A.   Yes, I agree with you, and without his

         19  approval it was impossible for us to enter the room.

         20  And that's what he said.  He said that he had some time

         21  and that he was able to talk to us, and if we had any

         22  kind of proposal or suggestions, that he was willing to

         23  listen to us.

         24       Q.   So what was discussed at the meeting?

         25       A.   Some people who thought they knew something

Page 3261

          1  about the military doctrine and who did describe -- who

          2  did say that the manner in which Vukovar was liberated

          3  was not very good, had an opportunity to confirm that,

          4  and to say it publicly.  I'm not sure, but I believe

          5  that Mr. Pajo Nedic was objecting to the shelling of

          6  Vukovar and the way it was conducted, because the town

          7  was reduced to rubble.  And for the people who are from

          8  Vukovar, were very hurt by what they said.

          9            And I can tell you for myself, after I had

         10  seen what the situation was, I was also concerned.

         11  Dr. Hadzic also talked, and he was really distressed

         12  with what he had seen, and he spoke in some general

         13  terms about the need to repair the town so that people

         14  would be able to live normally in that town.

         15            Dokmanovic also spoke.  He addressed the need

         16  to organise as soon as possible, together with the army

         17  and the people in general, to organise harvest and

         18  preparations that were necessary for the sowing.

         19            I also mentioned this when I discussed with

         20  the members of the Prosecution, and this is the

         21  impression that I had.  This speech that was made by

         22  Dokmanovic seem to me quite strange, bizarre, almost

         23  surreal, in view of what was going on around us.

         24  However, I can very well understand that at that time

         25  his attitude was very professional and he was perfectly

Page 3262

          1  conscious that without agriculture, which was the basis

          2  for life in the area, that without agriculture we would

          3  never be able to repair the town and to enable its

          4  population to live normally.

          5       Q.   Are you sure that Pajo Nedic was at that

          6  meeting?

          7       A.   I already told you that I'm not sure that

          8  that was Pajo Nedic.  Somebody spoke, several people

          9  spoke, but someone was very insistent, and he said,

         10  Mr. Vojnovic, that the army, in that action, in that

         11  operation, which had lasted for several months, had

         12  done -- excuse my language -- had done a shitty

         13  business.

         14            Mr. Vojnovic had nothing to say in that

         15  sense.  He said that that was the strategy, that was

         16  the doctrine that they had adopted and had resulted in

         17  the not very large number of casualties.  And I think

         18  he had the JNA in mind when he said that.  And he said

         19  that a grave number of people was supposed to find

         20  accommodation as soon as possible, because people kept

         21  pouring out of the shelters, out of the basements and

         22  the town.  There were Croats there, Serbs, people who

         23  had been fortunate enough to survive what was happening

         24  in the town.  And I'm not talking only about the

         25  operations carried out by the JNA.  There were lots of

Page 3263

          1  internal settling of accounts.  There were lots of

          2  people who had acted on their own, who had established

          3  their own groups, and I am referring to parts of

          4  Croatian formations, and who were terrorising the

          5  population in the town.  And the corpses that I saw in

          6  the streets were not the corpses of Croats or Serbs.

          7  They were corpses of some people who happened to be

          8  there and they were all mixed.

          9       Q.   You said that the meeting lasted for about

         10  one hour.  Where did you go after the meeting?  Did you

         11  stay for a while at VELEPROMET?

         12       A.   I stayed in the yard, the VELEPROMET

         13  compound, and most of the people who had been at the

         14  meeting stayed there, remained there for a while,

         15  because they were waiting in line to get out of the

         16  VELEPROMET compound.  Some sort of traffic jam had been

         17  created there.  There was a great number of vehicles in

         18  the street in front of the VELEPROMET compound.  There

         19  was no order whatsoever at that moment, and we were in

         20  a great hurry, and half an hour later we managed to

         21  join the convoy that was headed no Negoslavci.

         22       Q.   Mr. Susa, did you see when Slavko Dokmanovic

         23  left?  Did he leave before you or later on?

         24       A.   I did not pay attention to Slavko Dokmanovic

         25  at that moment, and I don't know whether he had left

Page 3264

          1  before me, but if you want me, I can add.  Later on I

          2  saw him ahead of me.

          3       Q.   When did you see him?  You saw him after the

          4  meeting and did after 3 p.m.?

          5       A.   Yes, the meeting ended around 3.00.  I cannot

          6  tell you the exact time, and I wouldn't commit myself

          7  in that way, but the first time that I saw him after

          8  the meeting, it was before the village of Orolik, and

          9  it was the last time I saw him on that day.  And I

         10  didn't see him again before several days.

         11       Q.   What happened in Orolik?

         12       A.   The convoy vehicles stopped before Orolik,

         13  including my vehicle.  At that moment I didn't see

         14  anything, however, my driver noticed that something was

         15  happening ahead of us, some kind of incident is taking

         16  place, and threatened to become a real conflict with

         17  casualties maybe.  And when my driver said that, he

         18  mentioned Slavko Dokmanovic, and he said that he had

         19  some kind of argument with the checkpoint control --

         20  checkpoint patrol and that they were likely to come to

         21  blows.  So he left the vehicle, he got out of the

         22  vehicle, and I got out of the vehicle after him.  And

         23  at that point I saw Mr. Dokmanovic, together with Rade

         24  Leskovac, and a number of other people unknown who were

         25  to me.  And I saw a number of military policemen who

Page 3265

          1  were quite aggressive, I assume, because they were

          2  drunk, and who had their rifles pointed towards

          3  Dokmanovic and these other people.

          4            And I believe that Mr. Leskovac acted in an

          5  inadequate manner during that incident.  I believe that

          6  he was standing behind Mr. Dokmanovic and he was sort

          7  of pushing him towards these people with whom no

          8  agreement could be reached.

          9            We were simply -- we had to withdraw, simply,

         10  and this is what I suggested to Mr. Dokmanovic.  But

         11  then an officer appeared, an army officer, and he

         12  ordered that the road should be cleared and that the

         13  convoy should be allowed to proceed.

         14       Q.   Could you be more specific as to the time of

         15  the day?

         16       A.   Well, that day was quite sunny, but it ended

         17  with some kind of mist.  And when I saw Mr. Dokmanovic,

         18  at that point the sun had already settled down, but I

         19  think you can say that it was already dusk.  After we

         20  had passed Orolik and when we reached Banovci, which is

         21  the following village, and which is maybe four or five

         22  kilometres away from Orolik, I remember that we already

         23  had our lights on.

         24       Q.   I don't assume you can remember the exact

         25  time?

Page 3266

          1       A.   Well, I presume it could have been around

          2  5.00 p.m., maybe some minutes, several minutes before

          3  that or after that.

          4       Q.   And my last question.  Do you remember what

          5  Slavko Dokmanovic was wearing that day?

          6       A.   Slavko Dokmanovic had an uniform on, which

          7  was different from my uniform and from other similar

          8  uniforms that we were wearing.  His uniform resembled

          9  the uniform that I was using before the war for

         10  hunting.  It was a two-piece hunting uniform and I

         11  believe that he had the same kind of vest.

         12       Q.   The one with front pockets for ammunition?

         13       A.   Yes, that's the kind of vest I had in mind.

         14       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Susa, that concludes my

         15  examination.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Williamson.

         17            Cross-examination by Mr. Williamson

         18       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Susa.  Do you recall

         19  giving a statement to Mr. Waespi in Belgrade on the

         20  10th and 11th of January of this year?

         21       A.   Yes, I do.  I made that statement.

         22       Q.   And was that statement taken down in the

         23  English language and subsequently read back to you in

         24  Serbian?

         25       A.   Yes, it was.

Page 3267

          1       Q.   And then did you sign the statement as being

          2  true and correct?

          3       A.   Yes, I did.

          4       Q.   Okay.  At this time I would like for you to

          5  look at this.  I'll mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit,

          6  I believe it's 206.  And this statement was taken in

          7  Mr. Fila's office; is that correct?

          8       A.   In a way, yes.  The first day we were in the

          9  building of the Federal Executive Council and then on

         10  the second day in Mr. Fila's office.

         11       Q.   And do you recognize your signature on this

         12  document?

         13            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, it is not the same as

         14  last time.  Mr. Waespi gave us that statement.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         16       A.   On all the pages of this document, which you

         17  have given me, I recognise my signature.

         18            MR. WILLIAMSON:  At this time I would tender

         19  this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 206.

         20            MR. FILA:  No objection.

         21            MR. WILLIAMSON:

         22       Q.   Mr. Susa, when was the government of the

         23  Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem

         24  formed, initially?

         25       A.   The first talks about a government began at

Page 3268

          1  the beginning of August 1991, and at that time I was

          2  still in Belgrade for treatment.

          3            A more serious meeting on that topic was held

          4  on the 18th of August, the same year, and the

          5  government was actually constituted in September of

          6  that same year, before the Great National Assembly.

          7       Q.   So the government that was constituted in

          8  September and which we have seen a little earlier,

          9  where the ministers are set out in this document, that

         10  was the first constituting of a government, is that

         11  correct, with actual ministers?

         12       A.   Yes, that's right.

         13       Q.   And during the period between September and

         14  December, did the persons who were holding these

         15  ministerial posts change, or did they remain the same?

         16       A.   I think that during that particular period we

         17  only had one situation in which we had a change, and

         18  that was after Mr. Ilija Koic was injured, and he was

         19  Defence Minister and was replaced by his deputy, Mr.

         20  Pedra Grablovic (phoen).

         21       Q.   How was Mr. Koic, the Defence Minister,

         22  injured?  What were the circumstances under which he

         23  was injured?

         24       A.   As far as I know, he was going from -- by car

         25  from Vukovar towards the village where the -- inhabited

Page 3269

          1  by Serbs and was then attacked from an ambush.  And

          2  that particular vehicle was hit by one of these Zolja,

          3  rocket launchers, and he was seriously wounded.

          4       Q.   Did you have a Deputy Minister of Justice?

          5       A.   Yes, I had a deputy and several assistants.

          6       Q.   How many assistant ministers altogether, if

          7  you recall?

          8       A.   Yes, I do recall, of course.  I had three

          9  assistants.  I don't count my deputy.  I know that it

         10  was his function to help me most directly and to take

         11  my place when I was not there.  Then we had the

         12  secretary in the ministry who dealt with all personnel

         13  problems and prepared and organised work within the

         14  ministry, and of course there were assistants for

         15  justice, for administration and for criminal sanctions.

         16       Q.   And was this true of the other ministries

         17  within the government as well, that there were deputy

         18  ministers and assistant ministers for the various

         19  offices?

         20       A.   Unfortunately, I must say that a number of

         21  ministers did not have conditions in which they could

         22  have the luxury of deputies, so usually they nominated

         23  assistants.  Some of them did have deputies, others

         24  only had assistants, because deputies were a luxury at

         25  the time.

Page 3270

          1       Q.   Do you recall what was the situation with

          2  Mr. Dokmanovic within the Ministry of Agriculture.  Did

          3  he have a deputy, assistants?  How many people did he

          4  have on his staff, if any?

          5       A.   I can't quite remember the exact organisation

          6  as to personnel, Mr. Dokmanovic's staff, but he had

          7  several professionals working with him.

          8       Q.   Now, do you know what the Serb National

          9  Council was?  What was this organisation?

         10       A.   It was an organisation, and I know as much as

         11  I've already said about it.  It was organised, set up

         12  by prominent Serbs on the territory of Croatia and some

         13  other individuals who lived in Serbia, in

         14  Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, and even in Germany,

         15  Sweden and Holland.  There were about 60 odd people in

         16  the Council.

         17       Q.   And the original Council was created in Serb,

         18  near Knin, in July of 1990, correct?

         19       A.   Let me say that at the time I was politically

         20  unengaged on the Serbian question side, because I

         21  performed my duties as deputy -- as public attorney in

         22  Croatia, District Attorney in Croatia.  So I'm not

         23  quite sure when the Serb National Council was set up

         24  and who set it up, because several people had said that

         25  they had made the vital contribution to its founding,

Page 3271

          1  but I think the date that you have mentioned was

          2  generally accepted as the date when the Council was

          3  founded.

          4       Q.   And I was mentioning the Serb National

          5  Council from Serb, from Knin.  Later on a separate

          6  Council was formed for Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and

          7  Western Srem, was it not?  If you know.

          8       A.   Yes, I heard about that, but I did not take

          9  part in the work of either Council.

         10       Q.   Did the Serb National Council have a role in

         11  the formation of the governmental bodies in the Serbian

         12  district of Slovenia, Baranja and Western Srem?  Did

         13  they have any part in the forming of the national

         14  assembly and the government?

         15       A.   In a way it did, yes, because it gave --

         16  presented the idea as to how matters should be

         17  organised.  The Serbian National Council did not

         18  function as an integral, organised body, but it was

         19  individuals who presented themselves as members of the

         20  Serb National Council and they were the promoters of an

         21  idea on the need to create an organ, a body which would

         22  organise and control the administration and life in a

         23  given locality.

         24       Q.   So it would be fair to say that they were

         25  more of an advisory body that helped create the ideas

Page 3272

          1  by which the government was formed?

          2       A.   Yes, that's right.

          3       Q.   Then you had a large role in actually the

          4  drafting of the legislation and some of the rules that

          5  we have seen by which the government operated; is that

          6  correct?

          7       A.   In a certain sense, yes, I gave some

          8  initiatives and concrete proposals which were

          9  definitely given shape to and adopted to at the Great

         10  National Assembly.  Let me also tell you that I also

         11  had very many critics at the time.

         12       Q.   But generally the government was formed in a

         13  very organised fashion and there were clearly

         14  delineated roles for the different posts; is that

         15  correct?

         16       A.   Yes, on paper.

         17       Q.   Can you tell me what was the relationship

         18  between the government and the Serbian district -- of

         19  the Serbian District and the government of the Republic

         20  of Croatia, if any?  Were there any contacts between

         21  the two?

         22       A.   At that time there were no contacts, not good

         23  contacts, but no contacts.  When we in mid-1992

         24  appeared with the wish to have the most direct possible

         25  contacts with the Croatian government, a group of

Page 3273

          1  individuals, including myself, was politically -- fared

          2  badly politically.

          3       Q.   But that was much later on; you said in 1992,

          4  correct?

          5       A.   Yes, that was after the unification of the

          6  three Serbian districts into one whole, one entity, one

          7  organisation, which was called Krajina.

          8       Q.   Now, during this period of 1991, when the

          9  conflict was going on, did your government abide by any

         10  decisions which were taken by the Croatian government

         11  in respect to the region under your control?

         12       A.   No, we did not abide by those decisions.

         13       Q.   And I take it there was no way for the

         14  Croatian government to enforce decisions in the area

         15  that was under your control?

         16       A.   In the period that you are discussing, there

         17  was no possibility for those decisions to be enforced.

         18       Q.   Now, as the battle was going on around

         19  Vukovar, the government, as I understand it, was

         20  meeting regularly in Erdut; is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes, it is.

         22       Q.   Were meetings taking place anywhere else?

         23       A.   They were taking place in two localities,

         24  either in Beli Manastir or in Erdut.  I don't remember

         25  exactly.  It is possible that one was held in Ilok, but

Page 3274

          1  I'm not sure of that.

          2       Q.   Did meetings alternate between the two, for

          3  example, one meeting in Erdut, then a meeting in Beli

          4  Manastir, and the next one in Erdut, or was it more

          5  irregular?

          6       A.   No, we could not alternate, but some people

          7  wanted to have this sort of symbolic equality between

          8  Slavonia and Srem on the one side, and Baranja on the

          9  other.  However, there were areas which were physically

         10  divided, and it was really very complicated to travel

         11  such a long way, to hold meetings alternately.

         12       Q.   And how often were the meetings occurring?

         13       A.   For the most part, once a week, sometimes

         14  more frequently, sometimes less frequently.  In view of

         15  the problems that we discussed, and if there was the

         16  Great National Assembly before that, then we would meet

         17  twice a week, but usually it was once every two weeks.

         18       Q.   Now, you indicated to Mr. Waespi in the

         19  statement that you gave to him that it was normal for

         20  local military commanders to come and give reports to

         21  the government, was it not?

         22       A.   Yes, it was, but not for everyone.  There

         23  were military commanders who were highly disciplined in

         24  organising the defence of their villages and they

         25  remained.  And they cooperated with the government in

Page 3275

          1  the sense that they came to Erdut regularly and

          2  informed us as to the situation in their village.  And

          3  the situation was very bad, if for nothing else, for

          4  health reasons, because we did not have the necessary

          5  health care necessary and medical aids for diseases,

          6  particularly Trichinella spiralis, the disease that was

          7  prevalent.

          8       Q.   When you say they came to Erdut, would they

          9  actually attend the meetings of the government itself

         10  and brief the members as to what was going on in their

         11  areas?

         12       A.   The principle was that these people would

         13  inform one of the department ministers and if that

         14  minister considers it necessary to tell the other

         15  members of the government, then they would discuss the

         16  issue.  Very frequently they would sit at the meetings

         17  and listen to what was going on, and we wanted to

         18  ensure the presence of the public at our meetings,

         19  because when they would go back to their own villages,

         20  they would inform the inhabitants of what we were

         21  discussing and what we were preparing to do.

         22       Q.   And, as I understand it, the -- these

         23  military leaders would come to you because they were

         24  having some manpower shortages as well, and were asking

         25  to you shift people who were involved in agriculture or

Page 3276

          1  industrial production to perform military functions; is

          2  that correct?

          3       A.   Yes, that's correct.  In individual villages,

          4  in some of the villages, the danger of conflicts with

          5  the opposite side was acute, and it was daily, a daily

          6  threat.  And in some of the villages, such as Mirkovci,

          7  Karadzicevo, Tenia along the border-line, people would

          8  die daily.  There were less and less people and we had

          9  to ensure that people -- safety for people who remained

         10  in their houses, adamant in defending them.

         11       Q.   You had also indicated to Mr. Waespi that the

         12  local commanders had in fact two superiors, the JNA who

         13  would supply them with food, weapons and wages on one

         14  hand and local civil authorities on the other

         15  hand. "When they were not able to come to terms with

         16  their military superiors, they would turn to us to

         17  complain about their problems."  Just for your

         18  reference, Your Honours, I am on page 4 in the middle

         19  paragraph.

         20            Is that a fair statement?

         21       A.   Yes, I remember what I told Mr. Waespi.  What

         22  I said is true, but we should have an exact

         23  interpretation of the phases in which they would come

         24  to us and what they asked to us do.  They never asked

         25  us concrete solutions, because they knew that we,

Page 3277

          1  unfortunately, did not have them at hand.  But they

          2  asked us to act as arbiters in their relationship with

          3  the representatives of the army.

          4       Q.   So the Territorial Defence saw you as someone

          5  who can mediate between them and the JNA, and to help

          6  them solve some of their problems?

          7       A.   Part of the military commanders considered

          8  this.  Some of us (sic) never asked us for anything.

          9  They didn't need us.

         10       Q.   Now, you have looked at a document earlier,

         11  which I think has been entered as Defence Exhibit 113,

         12  which was the decision to attach the Territorial

         13  Defence of the Serbian district of Slovenia, Baranja

         14  and Western Srem to the armed forces of the Socialist

         15  Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  When it refers to the

         16  Territorial Defence of the Serbian district, what does

         17  this mean?  Was there an unified command or is this

         18  just talking about all of the various TO units from the

         19  different villages?  Can you clarify that a little bit?

         20       A.   I think I can tell you quite simply.

         21  Unfortunately, there was nothing that was so well

         22  organised as to represent a whole uniform command.

         23  They were -- there were village guard, watches set up

         24  earlier, which armed themselves during that period, and

         25  depending on the size of the village, and the structure

Page 3278

          1  of the people who imposed themselves as commanding, how

          2  that Territorial Defence would function.  Sometimes,

          3  unfortunately, that Territorial Defence would mistreat

          4  the villagers in the given villages.

          5       Q.   And what role, if any, did the Minister of

          6  Defence, Mr. Koic have, in coordinating the activities

          7  of these various Territorial Defence units?

          8       A.   Just one correction.  It was Mr. Ilija Koic.

          9  He had a very difficult task and I would say

         10  unsuccessful to the very end.

         11       Q.   Now, when this decision was reached wherein

         12  the Territorial Defences were shifted over to the JNA,

         13  how was this communicated to the various Territorial

         14  Defence units?

         15       A.   Perhaps by means of the public information

         16  media.  I don't know whether at the Ministry of Defence

         17  there were any notes written to the villages.  I think

         18  that it was the radio, press and television which

         19  announced that a decision of this kind had been taken,

         20  and I suppose that later on people from the JNA began

         21  to disarm and to subject these units to themselves, who

         22  until then were in command of themselves.  Their own

         23  commanders.

         24       Q.   Now, you indicated during your examination in

         25  chief that Mr. Koncarevic, I believe Ilija Koncarevic,

Page 3279

          1  had decided with the military authorities that

          2  everybody carrying weapons would be under the command

          3  of the JNA?  Why was Mr. Koncarevic designated to carry

          4  out this discussion with the JNA?

          5       A.   Well, they were very difficult talks for two

          6  reasons.  First of all, there was the question of

          7  whether the army would agree for us to bring in --

          8  bring order into such a disorganised formation, which I

          9  suppose would be a very difficult task, a thankless

         10  task.  On the other hand, we had to explain to the

         11  people why they would be commanded by somebody from the

         12  JNA in future.  Mr. Ilija Koncarevic, in his previous

         13  life, was an active officer of the JNA.  He had some

         14  good connections there, good friends there, and by

         15  virtue of his function he was prisoned (sic) the Great

         16  National Assembly, therefore, for a political decision

         17  of this kind, a lot of strength and authority was

         18  needed so that by virtue of his function and the manner

         19  in which he was able to perform this, that was the job

         20  for him.

         21       Q.   Now, in the meeting on the 19th of November,

         22  which occurred in Erdut, do you recall if anything else

         23  was discussed other than those items that appear in the

         24  minutes of the meeting?

         25       A.   Well, to tell you the truth, all the topics

Page 3280

          1  -- I can't recall all the subjects in the minutes, had

          2  my attention not been drawn to them.  I know that the

          3  dominant discussion was about Vukovar and about

          4  everything that we came to learn of and which indicated

          5  that a great tragedy had taken place there.

          6       Q.   And you indicated that Mr. Hadzic, Goran

          7  Hadzic, had been told that military options would be

          8  concluded the following day.  Do you recall who had

          9  told him this, or where he learned this information?

         10       A.   No, I don't.  I couldn't say.

         11       Q.   And in the minutes, and I know you may not

         12  have them in front of you any more, but it indicates

         13  that it was necessary for members of the government to

         14  be in Vukovar.  This seems a little more forceful than

         15  just an invitation to attend.  It's more of an

         16  indication that everyone is expected to be there; is it

         17  not?

         18            MR. FILA:  Objection, Your Honour.  You are

         19  not reading correctly, it was not stated that it was

         20  their duty to be in Vukovar.  That is not stated

         21  anywhere.  So if we supply you with the defence exhibit

         22  --

         23            MR. WILLIAMSON:  It appears on the English

         24  translation and that's how it appears on the

         25  transcript, that it was necessary for members of the

Page 3281

          1  government to be there.  I've quoted it correctly.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  You didn't say duty, you said

          3  necessary.

          4            MR. FILA:  Necessary and indispensable.  It

          5  says "necessary" in the minutes and "indispensable" is

          6  something else again.  Necessary, you can and you

          7  needn't.  Indispensable is you must.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, I'll read my

          9  question again.  I said:  It indicates that it was

         10  necessary for members of the government to be in

         11  Vukovar.  This seems a little more forceful than just

         12  an invitation to attend.  I quoted it verbatim.

         13            MR. FILA:  Let's make one thing clear.  The

         14  original exists.  Would you please read it and have it

         15  translated exactly.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila, I think

         17  Mr. Williamson is reading from the transcript of this

         18  afternoon's hearing.  So this is what the witness said

         19  before.  It was necessary.  So I think it is quite

         20  proper for Mr. Williamson to ask this question.  So the

         21  objection is overruled.  Please -- you may proceed,

         22  Mr. Williamson.

         23            MR. WILLIAMSON:

         24       Q.   So again I would just ask you, Mr. Susa,

         25  where it indicates that it was necessary for members of

Page 3282

          1  the government to be in Vukovar, this seems to be a

          2  little more forceful than just an invitation.  Again,

          3  it seems to be implying that there is some obligation

          4  for you to be present, or an expectation that people be

          5  present.  Wouldn't you say?

          6       A.   Expectation, yes, perhaps, in a way.  All of

          7  us wanted to see the town, but I must tell you that

          8  when Goran Hadzic tells somebody that something would

          9  be necessary, very often this is not binding upon

         10  anybody.

         11       Q.   Now, when you reached Vukovar, you indicated

         12  that you got there originally around 10.30 in the

         13  morning and went with this friend to see his house and

         14  then returned to VELEPROMET.  What was the situation in

         15  VELEPROMET when you arrived back there?  What did you

         16  observe going on?

         17       A.   There was a lot of confusion everywhere.

         18  Everything was at the level of a catasic (phoen) day.

         19  Houses were still on fire.  There was a multitude of

         20  people.  Everybody was going to and fro, or at least I

         21  had that feeling, and everything gave me the picture of

         22  complete confusion.

         23            Immediately after the end of the meeting I

         24  had a strong migraine headache.  There were people

         25  moving about in military uniform.  There were women,

Page 3283

          1  men in civilian clothing.  There were people crying.

          2  There were people laughing, and this all -- it seemed

          3  like a big painting of Hieronymus Bosch.  That's what I

          4  said on the occasion.

          5       Q.   Would it be fair to say that those events

          6  left quite a lasting impression on you?

          7       A.   Yes, they did on me, a very lasting

          8  impression.

          9       Q.   Now, when this meeting started in -- at

         10  VELEPROMET, where exactly was it held?

         11       A.   I did not know VELEPROMET well enough.  I

         12  don't even know it now.  I don't know whether I visited

         13  perhaps once or twice afterwards.  But the entrance is

         14  -- you go through one entrance, one doorway, and then

         15  there is a corridor with another door and there is a

         16  room which has just that one entrance, which is both

         17  the entrance and the exit.

         18       Q.   And approximately how many people were

         19  present for the meeting altogether?

         20       A.   About 25 to 30 people, possibly.

         21       Q.   Do you recall which ministers were there?

         22       A.   More or less, yes.  Do you want me to

         23  enumerate them?

         24       Q.   Yes, if you can.  The ones that you remember

         25  being present, by their name and their post, if

Page 3284

          1  possible.

          2       A.   There was Goran Hadzic, who was the Prime

          3  Minister; Dr. Mladen Hadzic, who is no relation to the

          4  first, he performed the function of the Deputy Prime

          5  Minister; then there was Mr. Dokmanovic, he was

          6  Minister of Agricultural; Bogdan Vorkapic as the

          7  Minister for Construction and Town Planning; Mr. Bogdan

          8  Vojnovic, who was the Minister of Finance; I think

          9  Mr. Bora Bogunovic was there as well as the Minister

         10  for Internal Affairs; I myself was present; and I think

         11  there were some other individuals, Assistant Ministers

         12  and Ministers as well.  I'm afraid I can't remember.

         13       Q.   Was Mr. Leskovac a member of the government?

         14  I realise he was not a Minister.  Was he holding some

         15  other post for the government?

         16       A.   Yes, in a way he was a member of the

         17  government because he was an Assistant Minister.  As

         18  his Ministry, as I said earlier on, did not have a

         19  Deputy, then when Mr. Petrovic was absent, who was

         20  Minister for Information, Mr. Leskovac would perform

         21  his duties.  And most frequently, Mr. Petrovic lived in

         22  Novi Sad.  He was a fairly sick man, and so he was not

         23  present very often.

         24       Q.   Now, you indicated earlier that Arkan was

         25  also present in this meeting.  What was his role there?

Page 3285

          1       A.   The role of Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan was

          2  fairly clear in a sense.  Up to the beginning of the

          3  conflict in the area, his unit was first located in

          4  Tenia, and then after, some conflicts with some of our

          5  people from Tenia, they transferred to Erdut where he

          6  had ambitions of setting up a camp for the training --

          7  a training camp for people who had to know about

          8  warfare and actually knew nothing about warfare.

          9            His relationship with Mr. Hadzic was a good

         10  one and very often he would give Mr. Hadzic -- he would

         11  supply security for Mr. Hadzic when he would travel

         12  through the region where the contact with enemy forces,

         13  hostile forces, was a daily occurrence.

         14       Q.   I believe in your statement to Mr. Waespi you

         15  also indicated that Major Sljivancanin joined the

         16  meeting at some point in time.  What was the purpose

         17  for him coming to the meeting?

         18       A.   Mr. Sljivancanin was not present at the

         19  meeting.  If I remember correctly, I said on the

         20  occasion, and I'll repeat this, he turned up very

         21  briefly and left.  But I met Mr. Sljivancanin twice in

         22  my life, but I saw him on television screens generally

         23  after the meeting.  I think he just briefly entered and

         24  exited from the room.  He did not discuss joining in

         25  our discussions, nor did he address us.

Page 3286

          1       Q.   You indicated in the statement -- and I know

          2  the statement is in English.  I'm not sure how well you

          3  can read English -- but on page 10 -- I'll read it out,

          4  and you can tell me if this is correct or incorrect.

          5  You said:  "I think at that time Sljivancanin was

          6  present there too since he responded to my words saying

          7  that the army will take care of the prisoners of war

          8  exclusively."

          9       A.   That was definitely stated by Mr. Vojnovic.

         10  If I said it as you have read it out, then I probably

         11  made a mistake.  But Vojnovic spoke about that subject,

         12  and that I know full well to be a fact.  Perhaps, in

         13  all this, I mixed up the statements made by

         14  Sljivancanin before or afterwards where he spoke about

         15  the prisoners of war.

         16       Q.   When you say Major Sljivancanin was there

         17  briefly, are you indicating that he came into the

         18  meeting briefly but did not participate in discussions,

         19  or he was just outside at VELEPROMET?

         20       A.   I have the feeling that he did not come to

         21  the meeting at all, that he just came in to see who was

         22  there and went out again.

         23       Q.   So this discussion in relation to prisoners

         24  of war took place with Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic

         25  exclusively?

Page 3287

          1       A.   I repeat, I think that his surname was

          2  Vojnovic, and if so, then that is the person in

          3  question.

          4       Q.   And do you remember exactly what was

          5  discussed with him and who participated in the

          6  discussion?

          7       A.   Not exactly, but basically, yes.  As I said,

          8  Goran Hadzic took part in the discussion, Mladen

          9  Hadzic, Slavko Dokmanovic, myself.  I think two or

         10  three other people took the floor.

         11       Q.   But you can't recall exactly what was said?

         12       A.   Not exactly, no.

         13       Q.   Were Territorial Defence commanders also

         14  present in this meeting on the 20th of November?

         15       A.   I did not know all the Territorial Defence

         16  commanders, particularly the ones from Vukovar whom I

         17  met after Vukovar's liberation.  It is possible that

         18  some of the commanders were there.  There were several

         19  people in uniform whom I did not know.

         20       Q.   Did you know Miroljub Vujovic or Stanko

         21  Vujanovic?

         22       A.   I met both of them after the operation to

         23  liberate Vukovar.

         24       Q.   As far as you can recall, neither one of them

         25  was present at this meeting on the 20th?

Page 3288

          1       A.   I don't think they were there, no, not at the

          2  meeting.  My acquaintance with them date to a later

          3  date, when they were cases brought to my court, before

          4  my court.

          5       Q.   And in the meantime, Mr. Vujovic was

          6  appointed to the executive council which governed the

          7  City of Vukovar, was he not?

          8       A.   I'm not sure that he was in the first team,

          9  but if he was, that would be no strange matter because

         10  he had exceptionally great authority in the area.  We

         11  did not meddle in these matters too much, that is to

         12  say, who the people who had liberated Vukovar would

         13  send to the executive council.  The only thing we

         14  wanted was that the President be Mr. Bibic of the

         15  executive council, who is a very calm elderly man whom

         16  we thought would have good organisational

         17  capabilities.  He was a successful director, and we

         18  felt that a man of this kind would help us in achieving

         19  some good cause.

         20       Q.   Now, as I understand it, after you came out

         21  of the meeting, you saw Mr. Dokmanovic again briefly

         22  outside; is that correct?

         23       A.   No, I didn't say that I saw him for a brief

         24  moment outside.  But it is possible that we passed each

         25  other.  But that detail was such a minor detail that I

Page 3289

          1  don't think I can say when he left the courtyard,

          2  whether he stood in the courtyard, stood about for some

          3  time.  I think that perhaps he did, but I can't quite

          4  remember where he was standing and when he left because

          5  all of us at one time left the courtyard, and, of

          6  course, all these people went through my line of

          7  vision.

          8       Q.   So you are not aware of exactly when he left

          9  VELEPROMET or whom he left with?

         10       A.   I don't know who he left with.  He might have

         11  left a little before me because the crowd started to

         12  thin at the time, and my driver took advantage of this

         13  occasion to introduce us into the column.  And I think

         14  that his driver or anybody else driving did the same

         15  thing.

         16       Q.   But you did not see him again until you

         17  reached Orolik; correct?

         18       A.   That's correct, yes, I didn't see him.

         19       Q.   And when you saw him, you said that

         20  Mr. Leskovac was with him.  Was anybody else in his

         21  immediate company at that time?

         22       A.   There were several other individuals whom I

         23  was not acquainted with.  I know Leskovac well, and so

         24  I saw him and took note of him immediately.  Dokmanovic

         25  was in the forefront whereas Leskovac was a little

Page 3290

          1  behind.

          2       Q.   Did you see who Mr. Dokmanovic left Orolik

          3  with?

          4       A.   No, I didn't.  No.  When this incident was

          5  over, and I hoped that I helped prevent it, we returned

          6  to the column, Dokmanovic was in front of us, and he

          7  left that place before us and turned towards Sid in the

          8  direction of Belgrade where we went too, but we didn't

          9  come across them anymore.

         10       Q.   When you say he was in front of you, he was

         11  not immediately in front of you but, rather, he was far

         12  enough away that you weren't able to see what type of

         13  car he was in or who he was with or ...

         14       A.   I couldn't say, no.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Thank you, Mr. Susa.  I have

         16  no further questions, Your Honour.

         17            THE WITNESS:  Mr. President, could I say

         18  something, please?

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

         20            THE WITNESS:  Perhaps just as a piece of

         21  information as to what we did during that period.  I

         22  must say here before you today that the first case of

         23  trials for criminal cases was done in our court in Beli

         24  Manastir for war crimes where Boljevic was sentenced to

         25  a maximum sentence of 20 years' imprisonment, and I

Page 3291

          1  must also say that in the majority of cases we know

          2  exactly how people behaved on the terrain, and that my

          3  contact with the Croatian side was almost regular, and

          4  I am getting ready to go to Croatia next week to

          5  perform my duties.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  May I then ask you one

          7  question?  These are cases brought before this court in

          8  Beli Manastir about crimes committed in the area of

          9  Vukovar in this particular period, '91, war crimes

         10  or ...

         11       A.   The case that I mentioned was a war crime and

         12  it was committed in the Beli Manastir locality.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  When?

         14       A.   In the period between 1991 and '92, and the

         15  case was brought to trial in 1993 and '94.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         17            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, just based on

         18  this statement, I would just have a couple of follow-up

         19  questions, if I might?

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

         21            Cross-examined further by Mr. Williamson

         22       Q.   Mr. Susa, this case that you are referring

         23  to, this was a man and his wife that lived in Beli

         24  Manastir; is that correct?  And both of them were

         25  prosecuted in that case?

Page 3292

          1       A.   Yes, you are right.

          2       Q.   How many other prosecutions were brought,

          3  that you are aware of, against people for war crimes in

          4  the area?

          5       A.   I'm not quite sure that there were many cases

          6  of war crimes, but I must tell you that over 30 cases

          7  were tried for individual murders, and all these cases

          8  were conducted against Serbs for the crimes that they

          9  committed against Croats.  But we had other cases as

         10  well, cases which we conducted against Croats.

         11       Q.   This case that you are referring to in Beli

         12  Manastir, what were the names of the accused in that

         13  matter?

         14       A.   I have to tell you that I did not follow all

         15  this in a direct manner because I never meddled with

         16  the affairs of the court, but the surname of the

         17  gentleman is Boljevic.  I cannot remember his first

         18  name.  Maybe I don't want to remember it.

         19            Anyhow, we have informed the international

         20  community in general, and Mr. Klein and his legal unit,

         21  we informed them about this particular case.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Before I turn to Mr. Fila, I

         23  wonder whether the parties or the witness could provide

         24  the court with the judgements delivered in these

         25  particular cases, of course to the extent that they

Page 3293

          1  deal with war crimes.  I think what the witness said is

          2  extremely interesting.  I mean, if you may try to dig

          3  out all judgements and to provide a copy to the court.

          4            MR. FILA:  I think it would be much easier

          5  for the Prosecution to get that, and I think that this

          6  man is still doing his time in Beli Manastir.  He is

          7  still in prison.  And my former chief of prison is

          8  still chief of prison there in Beli Manastir.  And most

          9  of these people have remained and are still working for

         10  the judiciary in Croatia.  It would be very easy for me

         11  to get that verdict, the judgement through Mr. Vasic or

         12  maybe through Judge Jelovac who was the President of

         13  the Trial Chamber, Presiding Judge.  The Trial Chamber

         14  worked on this particular case.

         15            But this is a very known case, and I think

         16  that we informed there of all the -- all the important

         17  international entities, and I think that his sentence

         18  was confirmed by them as well.

         19            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, I can say, if

         20  this is of some interest to the court, we can try to

         21  assist anyway we can, but the gentleman that he is

         22  talking about is not related in any way to any of the

         23  incidents which we have dealt with in this case, nor is

         24  he an individual whose name has come up at any point

         25  during our case.

Page 3294

          1            MR. FILA:  No.  If you have the 20th of

          2  November in mind, no, he has nothing to do with it.

          3  No, I didn't say that.

          4                 Re-examined by Mr. Fila

          5       Q.   Were there any other investigations carried

          6  out for war crimes?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Such as -- I don't want to state -- I don't

          9  know whether I am defending any of them.

         10       A.   Well, I don't know who you are defending, but

         11  we conducted  an investigation against a person by the

         12  name of Jurisic.  There were several proceedings that

         13  were conducted, but not many of them reached the stage

         14  of, you know, war crimes trials.  At that time, we were

         15  gathering facts that pointed to certain individual

         16  murders, and there were attempts to present these

         17  murders as some kind of revenge, as in attempts to gain

         18  some unlawful material again and things like that.

         19            This was very difficult for us to collect all

         20  the necessary facts and to prove the existence of a war

         21  crime, but we did complete all the work that was

         22  possible, and I can claim here on behalf of my

         23  colleagues as well that we worked professionally.

         24       Q.   Let me explain your status.  You are now an

         25  attorney at law in Belgrade.  Can you move freely in

Page 3295

          1  Croatia?  Are there any proceedings that are being

          2  conducted against you in Croatia?

          3       A.   Not that I know of.  I went to Croatia

          4  several times and I still have very good contacts in

          5  Croatia and I am still on good terms with people there,

          6  and I go there without any fear and I will continue to

          7  do so in the future.

          8            MR. FILA:  Thank you.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Susa, as a former

         10  Prosecutor and former Minister of Justice, of course

         11  you have special knowledge and you may be of great

         12  assistance to our court because I am sure that you have

         13  deep sensitivity to legal and institutional problems;

         14  so therefore, you can probably clarify some points.

         15            Let me ask you, first of all, about the

         16  relations between your government and the Republic of

         17  Serbia on one side and the central authorities in

         18  Belgrade between September '91 and January '92.

         19       A.   I think that something has been

         20  misinterpreted.  You spoke about Serbia, and the

         21  interpretation I got was the Republic of Serbia.

         22            Anyhow, I must tell you that my people found

         23  themselves in a very difficult position, and many

         24  people didn't know, didn't realise what was going on

         25  until a real tragedy befell them.  At the beginning, it

Page 3296

          1  was the wish of the Republic of Croatia to create a

          2  sovereign and independent state and, on the other hand,

          3  there was the wish of Serbia to preserve Yugoslavia,

          4  and we were the ones who fared the worst in that kind

          5  of situation.  We did not want to wage war together

          6  with the Republic of Croatia against our population,

          7  our people in Serbia.  You can see that from a great

          8  number of people who had gone to Yugoslavia now want to

          9  go back to Croatia.  This is not a time or place that I

         10  could enter into details which have nothing to do with

         11  my profession, but this was a great tragedy, and it is

         12  very difficult for people to live through such

         13  circumstances.

         14            These war crimes were committed by everyone.

         15  I do not wish to be more specific as to who these

         16  elements or people are.

         17            As for our relationship with the government

         18  in Belgrade, with the authorities in Belgrade, as long

         19  as we believed that Belgrade really wished to support

         20  us and that we had any realistic chances of remaining

         21  within Yugoslavia, although it was to be around

         22  Yugoslavia, our battle, our fight had some kind of

         23  meaning, and we wanted to prove our constitutional

         24  right that we had at that time within Yugoslavia.

         25            After Yugoslavia had established another

Page 3297

          1  state through the Zabljak constitution, everything

          2  became clear to us.  I was aware of that even before.

          3  And people like myself experienced a lot of bad

          4  things.  At that time we were not supposed to say

          5  publicly our opinion.  I was not supposed to talk about

          6  things that were happening, and I couldn't permit

          7  myself such kind of behaviour.

          8            This situation is now perfectly clear.  There

          9  are no longer Serbs in Croatia, and in Yugoslavia these

         10  people have not managed to find their place under the

         11  sun.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry to interrupt you.

         13  Actually, let me explain why I asked you this

         14  question.

         15            In the minutes of the meeting of your

         16  government held on the 19th of November, it was stated

         17  at one point that one of the decisions was to set up a

         18  sort of meeting between the Republic of Serbia and the

         19  JNA, or to come to some sort of negotiations within the

         20  Republic of Serbia -- I'm saying Republic -- and the

         21  JNA.

         22            So I was interested in what sort of

         23  institutional relations your government had at that

         24  time with the Republic of Serbia, with the central

         25  authorities of the Republic of Serbia on the one side

Page 3298

          1  and with the authorities in Belgrade, of Yugoslavia.

          2  What sort of relations?  Because, after all, you set up

          3  a government.  You were a Minister of Justice in a

          4  government, and this government was an entity.  I don't

          5  know whether it was an international entity, but it was

          6  an entity with Ministers, with a staff and so on, and

          7  functions, official functions.  You were the Minister

          8  of Justice.

          9            So my query was about, as I say, the

         10  institutional relations between your government and two

         11  other governments, the government in Serbia and the

         12  government of the whole state, Socialist Federal

         13  Republic of Yugoslavia.

         14       A.   At the beginning of 1991 our ambition was,

         15  first and foremost, to have the competences of the

         16  federal authorities still present in the area where we

         17  lived.  When we realised that this was not happening in

         18  a way that would provide us with some sort of

         19  protection, we did everything that's been discussed

         20  here for months; and in most aspects, it was the basic

         21  kind of self-protection.

         22            Later on, after we had established these

         23  bodies, when we were no longer within Yugoslavia, we

         24  wanted these bodies to be treated seriously and to be

         25  connected in an institutional manner, to have

Page 3299

          1  counterparts, to have discussions between governments,

          2  and this, unfortunately, never took place.

          3            I will mention my own example.  The way I

          4  worked was, thanks to a number of people that I knew in

          5  the Ministry, and here I have the Ministry of Serbia in

          6  mind, who helped me with various kinds of material

          7  assistance and they would often invite me to their

          8  meetings where professional issues were discussed.  But

          9  this was never brought to an official level of

         10  relations between two governments and two Ministries.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Now, again I tried to rely on

         12  your legal background and experience.  I wonder whether

         13  any objection was raised when you met in Vukovar on the

         14  20th to the fact that the meeting was being presided

         15  over by somebody who was not part of your government,

         16  namely, a Colonel of the JNA, and I wonder whether you,

         17  as a Minister of Justice and as a lawyer, you felt that

         18  this was inappropriate for a meeting or an informal

         19  discussion of the government of this regional district

         20  of Slavonia and so on, to be presided over by a member

         21  of the JNA, of the army sent by Belgrade?  Did anybody

         22  object to -- did you feel anything, that there was

         23  something inconsistent or odd in -- as I say, in a

         24  meeting not being presided over by the Prime Minister

         25  who, institutionally, should be the one who presides

Page 3300

          1  over a meeting of the whole government?

          2       A.   Well, it was -- I was able to understand the

          3  fact that the conflict in Vukovar had just finished and

          4  the JNA had an active role in that conflict and it was

          5  still a war area, and I could understand that the army

          6  would play an important role.

          7            However, what I did not understand was the

          8  fact that we were discussing things with a man whom we

          9  had not known from before and who had a very low level

         10  within that structure, and my impression was that we

         11  were somehow being told about what our position was.

         12            I didn't want to attack this gentleman

         13  personally because I could tell that he was really

         14  embarrassed, and this I had in mind all the time.  But

         15  in view of the situation in general, I think that

         16  Hadzic raised some kind of objection, and he said that

         17  he had a different idea of what that meeting should

         18  look like, and he said that he thought that we would be

         19  discussing some serious issues, and everything boiled

         20  down to the question of cleaning -- of the operations

         21  at the end of the conflict.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  Thank you.  You

         23  just said -- I am quoting your words:  "I had the

         24  impression we were being told what our position was."

         25  May I infer from these words that you had the feeling

Page 3301

          1  that you were actually -- you, yourself, as the

          2  Minister of Justice, and the whole government, was

          3  under the control of military people, namely the JNA,

          4  and this was symbolically expressed by the fact that a

          5  Colonel of the JNA was presiding over the meeting, that

          6  in a way he was in charge of the meeting, he was

          7  controlling the meeting?

          8       A.   Even if we could agree that on that day

          9  everything remained within the realm of symbolism, I

         10  think that during those days it was perfectly clear and

         11  obvious, because on the roads that were controlled by

         12  the army, I had to have a written authorisation issued

         13  by military authorities for free movement.  It is true

         14  that later on this was somehow simplified and I didn't

         15  have to have my pass every day.  I could simply get an

         16  authorisation for movement for about five or six days.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE: To the best of your

         18  recollection, was there any discussion in that meeting

         19  on the 20th of November about the plight of the

         20  civilians in the area of Vukovar, in Vukovar in

         21  particular, and with particular reference to all those

         22  civilians who had been detained by the army?  Was there

         23  any discussion, what to do with those civilians,

         24  whether to take them away, whether to take them

         25  somewhere or to put them in camps?  Was the issue

Page 3302

          1  discussed by the government?

          2       A.   The issue was discussed, yes, but not by

          3  using the terms that you have just used.  I don't know,

          4  and I didn't know at that time that civilians were

          5  being detained by the army.  We were told that the army

          6  had under its control members of the Croatian National

          7  Guard, and that these people were supposed to be

          8  transported to Yugoslavia, which was okay, because we

          9  had no accommodation for these people.  The only thing

         10  that was not right, and what we heard and which was

         11  confirmed later on, was that these people, without any

         12  proper criteria and prior determination as to their

         13  responsibility for crimes that were committed, whether

         14  they would be released and surrendered to the Croatian

         15  side.  I'm sure that most of these people would fit

         16  that category, but it was also proved that in at least

         17  10 cases there were war criminals within that group.

         18            As for the civilians, Dr. Mladen Hadzic, who

         19  is a very responsible doctor and a humanist, and I

         20  myself, we mentioned several times the need to evacuate

         21  women, children and elderly, so that the town would be

         22  liberated and so that we could start working on

         23  repairing the town itself.

         24            It was getting dark and I could not

         25  understand -- I could not accept the idea that people

Page 3303

          1  would spend the night in the open.  It was already very

          2  cold, in spite of the fact that they had been -- the

          3  day had been quite sunny.

          4            Mr. Vojnovic kept convincing us that this was

          5  being taken care of and that this was the reason why

          6  buses were coming, and that people would be put in

          7  these buses and that they would be transported to one

          8  of the big sports halls which could accommodate a great

          9  number of people.  Or that they would continue on their

         10  way to Croatia.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Tell me, is there

         12  any particular legal or psychological reason why you as

         13  a former Prosecutor and Minister of Justice were

         14  wearing a military uniform?  You said on the 20th you

         15  were wearing a military uniform?

         16       A.   Yes, I was.  I was wearing a uniform.  First

         17  of all, I was not able to wear anything better.  My

         18  clothes had remained in Croatia and I did not want to

         19  wear clothes that are -- received from the Red Cross.

         20  Many of my friends and relatives were fighting and this

         21  was a sign of solidarity on my part, and in the area

         22  where I was, where I was staying, that uniform, believe

         23  me, is the most suitable type of clothing.  Our life at

         24  that time seemed like a big adventure, and it was

         25  common for us to spend the night in the open at that

Page 3304

          1  time.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  My final

          3  question, which is more general.  It's about whether or

          4  not you felt during that meeting on the 20th of

          5  November, or afterwards that there was a sort of rift

          6  or dissension between extremists and moderates, whether

          7  somebody was putting pressures on one of the groups --

          8  one of these two groups, whether extremists in

          9  particular were putting pressure on moderates to be

         10  tough because of public opinion, because of the shock,

         11  terrible shock, because you were all outraged by what

         12  you had seen in Vukovar, destruction, corpses lying

         13  everywhere, and of course this was terribly shocking to

         14  you.

         15            So I wonder whether, because of this shock,

         16  the extremists were putting some pressure on the

         17  moderates so as to prompt them to become tough and

         18  react in a different way to what had happened?

         19       A.   Whether people before that meeting, or after

         20  the meeting, discussed that amongst themselves, I

         21  cannot tell.  I myself did not discuss with anyone the

         22  need of undertaking any radical measures to eliminating

         23  anyone.  This was not discussed at the meeting.  Nobody

         24  ever mentioned the way in which this whole thing would

         25  end and how the truth would be established as to what

Page 3305

          1  had happened during the past year.

          2            However, I myself was amongst those people

          3  who were in favour of establishing facts and finding

          4  out who committed crimes.  And I did not make any

          5  distinction between Croats and Serbs at that time, nor

          6  am I making any distinction now.  There were people on

          7  the Croat side who committed crimes against the Serbs.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  You have not replied to my

          9  question.  My question was whether or not you felt that

         10  there was some sort of pressure being put by the

         11  extremists on the moderates within the government,

         12  because I understand there were moderates, people who

         13  --

         14       A.   Are you referring to the extremist within the

         15  government or extremists -- well, on that day during

         16  the meeting of the government, you couldn't find a

         17  single extremist who would go so far -- whether anyone

         18  at that time claimed that he was a Serb, and that this

         19  was very important for him at that time, yes I am one

         20  of them, but this is nothing to do with extremism.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  I assume there is no

         22  objection to the witness being released, Mr. Susa.

         23  Thank you so much for coming to give evidence here in

         24  court.  You may now be released.  We may adjourn now

         25  and --

Page 3306

          1            MR. FILA:  Your Honours, the expert opinion

          2  that I promised to you is now ready, and I hope that

          3  you have received it.  You have?  Thank you.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  You mean the expert

          5  assessment by Dr. Petrovic?

          6            MR. FILA:  Yes, that's correct.  And I also

          7  have a statement for the witness who is scheduled for

          8  tomorrow.  However, we don't have enough copies to give

          9  them -- to give it to you now.  We'll have them

         10  tomorrow.  The Prosecution has a copy of that

         11  statement.  Yes.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  May I ask you, who will come

         13  first tomorrow, the Colonel, Mr. Miodrag, first.

         14            MR. FILA:  Yes, Pavlovic followed by Mr.

         15  Dokmanovic, and I would kindly ask you -- for you to

         16  allow the presence of a psychiatrist during his

         17  testimony.  And after that the psychiatrist will also

         18  testify.  And this will conclude my case, as I

         19  promised.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  Yes.  I had only a few

         21  minutes to quickly glance through the English text of

         22  the expert assessment by Dr. Petrovic, but I realise

         23  that there were quite a few pages about other

         24  witnesses.  I assume Dr. Petrovic will only testify

         25  about the accused, not about the other witnesses?

Page 3307

          1            MR. FILA:  What I have entrusted her with,

          2  she has responded to that.  I don't know what you want

          3  to accept from her testimony and whatever we agree upon

          4  will be used during her testimony.  In our system, when

          5  we request an expert assessment, I don't know how it

          6  works in your system, we have to provide her with a

          7  complete file, case file, so Dr. Petrovic has seen the

          8  indictment, everything that is not confidential,

          9  transcripts, videotapes of the interview with the

         10  accused, the detention unit, on the plane, statements

         11  of all witnesses who have been heard so far, and who

         12  are not under any protection order.  And on the basis

         13  of that she provides her opinion about the accused,

         14  about nothing else.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Of course we are not going to

         16  apply other Italian or British or some other law.  We

         17  are applying International law, International criminal

         18  law.  We discussed -- had a very brief discussion

         19  before entering the --

         20            MR. FILA:  Yes, but there was no other way

         21  for me to request for this expert analysis.  That's

         22  what I am trying to explain.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  We want you to confirm -- to

         24  make it clear to Dr. Petrovic that of course her expert

         25  assessment must be confined to a psychological or

Page 3308

          1  psychiatric evaluation of Mr. Dokmanovic.  That's all.

          2  Nothing to do with --

          3            MR. FILA:  That's fine with us, yes.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Because she cannot -- she is

          5  not authorised to say anything about witnesses who have

          6  been heard by the court.  So only, therefore -- and

          7  probably we will accept only the statement to the

          8  extent that it deals with Mr. Dokmanovic.

          9            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, that is the reason

         10  why I have provided you with this beforehand, because

         11  you are creating a new system here and if I were to

         12  give this to you a minute before the hearing, we

         13  wouldn't accomplish anything.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Thank you so

         15  much.  Any comments?  All right.  So we will now

         16  adjourn and we'll start again tomorrow at 9.30 sharp.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:  All rise.

         18            --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

         19                5:25 p.m., to be reconvened Wednesday,

         20                27th May, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.