1 Friday, 29th May, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 11.00 a.m.
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (In open session)
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I will ask the
6 Registrar to call out the case number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour.
8 Case number IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Slavko
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
11 Shall we start with Mr. Curtis -- honestly, I had no
12 time to check the transcripts.
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have checked it, Your
14 Honour, and I think, in all fairness to Mr. Fila, we
15 can resolve this.
16 I think what happened is, after I looked at
17 the transcript, I believe Mr. Fila and I were both
18 correct to some extent. Mr. Fila asked the question to
19 Mr. Dokmanovic, he said: "What did you talk about
20 during that meeting? What did they ask you? Well, not
21 on that day. In general. In general."
22 Then Mr. Dokmanovic replied in some detail as
23 to the substance of what was said. When I was taking
24 my notes, I wrote down what Mr. Dokmanovic said. But
25 looking at the transcript, I'm not sure that Mr. Fila
1 intended to elicit the response that he got from
2 Mr. Dokmanovic when he asked the question in the way
3 that he did.
4 So as a result, I will not go into the
5 substance of the interview with Mr. Curtis. However,
6 should Mr. Fila wish to do so, then we would feel that
7 we would be in a position to do so on re-examination.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, do you agree?
9 MR. FILA: I didn't want to speak about that
10 and I won't. I completely agree.
11 I would like to ask Mr. Williamson something
12 before we begin with Mr. Curtis. As I said, if you
13 have nothing against this -- and Mr. Curtis can stay,
14 because he is a professional, one of the professionals,
15 so to speak, from our profession -- I have come by some
16 documents that I'd like to hand around to you, which,
17 generally speaking, one is an additional addendum to
18 D1; if you remember, the meteorological report. That
19 is an addendum which helps to throw better light on the
20 picture and speaks of visibility.
21 It's nothing special. I would just like you
22 to have a look at it. It's just an addendum. That
23 document was up for translation. We've received it
24 now. So you can see it. It's nothing special, as I
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe -- we
2 have already received a copy of this previously in
3 English. If Mr. Fila is offering this for introduction
4 into evidence, we would have an objection to this as
5 being beyond the expertise of a meteorologist to reach
6 conclusions about how far away someone can see certain
7 -- see faces. I just don't believe that that is
8 within the expertise of a meteorologist, to offer
9 opinions as to that issue. So we would object to it on
10 that basis.
11 MR. FILA: As far as I am concerned, as you
12 will. I've asked for it, I've received it, and here
13 you are, because Judge Cassese asked for it. That's
14 what I asked for, I got, and you can do what you
15 like with it.
16 I just wanted to be at the service of the
17 Tribunal, if I can put it that way. Look at it
18 later on, add it to Exhibit D1. If not, never mind.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we had no
20 objection to the original report which gave the times
21 of sunset and sunrise and all of that. Our only
22 objection is to these conclusions about how far away
23 someone can see a face.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I would share the
25 views of the Prosecutor. Actually, what I had asked
1 for was --
2 MR. FILA: All right. Very well. Very
3 well. No problem.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: I too believe -- I don't need
5 to consult with my fellow Judges -- that this is a
6 matter of admissibility within certain distance --
7 MR. FILA: Your Honours, may I propose
8 something that I think we'll all agree to? If you take
9 note that you do not need this, then take it just as if
10 I hadn't put it forward. Never mind. I retract. No
11 problem. I just wanted to do it as a service to you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. It should be then
13 given back to the Registrar.
14 MR. FILA: The second document that I want to
15 give you is from the sphere of an international
16 conflict. They are new documents that I have come by.
17 It is the Sabor or Parliament of the Republic of
18 Croatia, the conclusions of the 28th of December, 1991,
19 calling for the recognition of Croatia as an
20 independent state. That is when recognition was
22 So may I tender that, please?
23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D146.
24 MR. FILA: You have the original in Croatian.
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, Your Honour.
1 MR. FILA: Thank you. So as not to encumber
2 the minutes, this is a set of documents on the
3 introduction of a new currency and the ceasing to exist
4 of the dinar. There are a lot of documents, so this is
5 a set of documents, and I propose to tender these as a
6 set into evidence. And, of course, you can look at
7 them individually. They all have to do with the dinar,
8 which will no longer be in use, and the new currency
9 that came into use after the dinar.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: These are, Mr. Fila,
11 documents relating to the issue of whether or not there
12 was an international armed conflict --
13 MR. FILA: Yes, an international armed
14 conflict. Only that. Like the previous one.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: The Republic of Croatia was
16 independent --
17 MR. FILA: Whether it was independent or not,
18 yes. But there are a lot of documents. I have
19 tendered them as a set. And they all relate to the
20 same subject, currency, the dinar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The documents are marked
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Bos, I believe each
24 paper clip --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think each paper clip had
2 all of one document because I got six copies of one
4 MR. FILA: But the one you saw -- all of them
5 are more or less the same. So if you've seen one, you
6 have more or less seen them all.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, perhaps I was
8 incorrect then. Maybe I didn't look at it thoroughly
10 MR. FILA: You are, of course, quite right,
11 Mr. Williamson. As I say, they are more or less the
12 same, mutatis mutandis.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are receiving this
14 document, I would like to apologise to Mr. Dokmanovic
15 for not asking him today whether he can follow me in
16 Serbian. Thank you, Mr. Dokmanovic.
17 MR. FILA: I would now like to put forward a
18 document when we complete this matter.
19 Would the Usher hand this document around
20 because I am sure the Prosecution will have something
21 to say against it. So I want to hand it around on
23 I would like to explain it, because I
24 referred to it in my introduction, and I would like to
25 have the court take a look at it.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe I can again profit from
2 this time, to save time, to say that we, yesterday, the
3 members of the Trial Chamber, we have met once again,
4 and I was asked by my colleagues to, in a way, warn you
5 that we have now in June five days, from the 22nd to
6 the 26th of June. On the 26th of June, the trial must
7 be over. We must finish by the 26th of June.
8 Therefore, this is particularly an appeal to the
10 If you need a lot of time for rebuttal
11 witnesses, that means that we will shorten the time
12 available to you for the closing statements.
13 Therefore, make sure that we can use our time in a
14 proper manner and that we'll finish by the 26th of
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might
17 address this just briefly?
18 We certainly will do everything that we can
19 to comply with the court's ruling. Our only concern
20 is, if Mr. Fila's evidence goes over, that we are, in
21 effect, punished for that if his takes longer than what
22 he is anticipating. As long as his is brief, I think
23 we should have no problem whatsoever completing it.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand from Mr. Fila
25 that his witnesses --
1 MR. FILA: Yes, Your Honour. That's right.
2 And if I find, and I hope to find an expert witness for
3 the system of old Yugoslavia, the Socialist Federal
4 Republic of Yugoslavia, but I'll be handing that in in
5 writing, a written expert report in English.
6 So, Mr. Williamson, I don't think I'll use up
7 even two days of our time. But let's say two days. Of
8 course, if you have questions, then I can -- what can I
9 ask his wife? What kind of a husband he was. And what
10 else can she say except that he was a good husband? I
11 don't see that that will last long.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: So you will need not more
13 than two days. And the Prosecutor?
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would anticipate that we
15 would need perhaps two and a half days at the most. I
16 think we can complete it in two. I am saying that out
17 of an abundance of caution.
18 But, for example, if Mr. Fila's witness is
19 going to be Mr. Dokmanovic's wife, I don't anticipate
20 that we would have a lot of cross-examination.
21 I think we might very well finish his
22 witnesses in one day. I think those should go very
23 quickly. If that's the case, then we certainly have
24 plenty of time to do it.
25 Your Honour, I had one other issue on this,
1 though. If, after having seen our evidence, though,
2 there were questions still in the court's mind as to
3 the locations that are depicted on the videotape, we
4 would make a motion that the court pay a visit to the
6 Again, the court may reject that out of
7 hand. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that
8 were the situation at that time -- I think it's
9 entirely up to Your Honours. After you've seen the
10 evidence, if you have questions, if you think it needs
11 clarification, and that it would help for you to pay a
12 visit to the scene, then we would certainly put that
13 out as an option.
14 I don't think that need be decided right
15 now. I just want to let you know that that is a
16 possibility, that we certainly would not oppose it, if
17 you would desire to do so having heard the evidence.
18 But, again, that may be something that you have no
19 interest in doing, and this is entirely a matter up to
20 the court, and it is your decision, and how it would
21 affect the timetable is up to you.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, let me ask
23 Mr. Fila how he would react to this suggestion by the
24 Prosecutor over a visit to the place?
25 MR. FILA: I have absolutely nothing against
1 because everything working in the interests of truth is
2 all right by me. But I would like to react to
3 something else at this point.
4 First of all, I still have not received the
5 declaration of war that Mr. Mesic mentioned. I still
6 haven't heard an explanation why opposite evidence was
7 given to me two minutes prior to the hearing, something
8 that we were to discuss yesterday but we forgot.
9 Third, why did I not get the minutes by
10 Mr. Curtis, from Mr. Curtis, and Mr. Niemann promised
11 to give me that when I was in Belgrade. I still have
12 not got the minutes of that, and I am now to hear what
13 Mr. Curtis said on the occasion. So I still haven't
14 received the minutes.
15 Fourth, will I have the possibility of giving
16 my views on the evidence presented by the Prosecution
17 in rebuttal without knowing what he is going to present
18 in rebuttal? Because, if on the 26th, I hear the
19 rebuttal by the Prosecutor, I am not a magician to be
20 able to know what he has so that I can agree on the
21 23rd whether it is correct or not.
22 And I'd like to draw the court's attention to
23 something very vital. Mr. Dokmanovic did not make the
24 tape himself, Mr. Dokmanovic did not have the tape, and
25 you can see from all the minutes and records that he
1 never mentioned the tape because he forgot all about
2 the tape.
3 It is witness Jevtovic who made the tape, as
4 he says, and witness Lazarevic had the tape, and
5 Dokmanovic never had the tape at all, never saw the
6 tape. The Prosecutor did not ask Jevtovic where and
7 when the tape was made, and witness Jevtovic just left
8 without having been asked.
9 Yes, you asked for the tape, Mr. Williamson.
10 I can just make an error by chance but not expressly.
11 You said how it was numbered, whether it was mounted,
12 and so on and so forth, but he was not told that that
13 was not the tape, to hear what the man would say.
14 Therefore, I cannot accept anything of that rebuttal
15 and to complete in a situation where I am being
17 And so, please, if you promise me something,
18 please keep your promises. I have no idea of
19 Mr. Curtis's notes, what they are. I said -- I'm
20 sorry. I am sure Mr. Curtis has his notes. He had
21 them before, so why shouldn't he have them now? But
22 the fact remains that I haven't received them. So ask
23 and you will hear.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. Before I
25 give the floor to -- I ask Mr. Williamson to answer the
1 various queries of Mr. Fila, may I say that we
2 discussed briefly this suggestion of going to Vukovar
3 to see the place, but, of course, we will decide
4 probably in that week between the 22nd and 26th of
5 June, and this, if we decide to go there, this, of
6 course, should occur after that week, in the following
7 week. I hope it would not take more than two or three
8 days. Of course, the parties should go there. And I
9 wonder whether there are any security problems, in
10 particular for the accused, because I assume the
11 accused also should be there.
12 Let us now leave aside this problem because
13 we will reconsider it in that particular week.
14 Let's go back to the various issues raised by
15 Mr. Fila. I think what he said is quite sensible, so I
16 would like to ask Mr. Williamson to reply.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, he raised a
18 number of issues, so I'm not sure that I will recall
19 all of them in addressing it.
20 In relation to this declaration of war that
21 Mr. Mesic had referred to, this is a document that
22 apparently is at the United Nations. We have put in a
23 request, we have made a follow-up request. We have not
24 yet received it. We have been told that they are
25 researching their records for it.
1 There is nothing that I can do about that.
2 We do not have it in our possession. It is not
3 something that we are holding out and not giving over
4 to him. We just simply do not have it.
5 Mr. Mesic referred to it in his testimony.
6 We have made attempts to obtain it, but we don't have
7 it at this time. As soon as we do, we will forward it
8 to the court.
9 The next issue --
10 MR. FILA: The problem is that the Defence
11 considers that that document does not exist and that
12 Mr. Mesic, quite simply, made it up. So I am quite
13 satisfied if the Prosecution can tell me that no
14 document of that kind exists, just to bear out what
15 Mr. Mesic said. General Kadijevic is a Croatian
16 General. How can a Croatian General declare war on
17 Croatia? I have never heard anything of the kind.
18 Quite illogical. Never mind.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: I asked the question on this
20 issue to the witness, and it was very clear that this
21 declaration of war was a misnomer. It was not a
22 declaration of war because -- it's not, technically
23 speaking, a declaration of war. It was a sort of
24 warning, ultimatum, which cannot be classified as a
25 declaration of war.
1 It is most likely that the document does
2 exist. You could probably, Mr. Williamson, ask again
3 the U.N., relevant U.N. office, to send us this
4 document, a copy of this document. It should be very
5 easy for them.
6 MR. WILLIAMSON: In theory, it should be,
7 yes. We all know there are some difficulties in
8 dealing with the U.N.
9 Again, Your Honour, how I reply to this, from
10 Mr. Fila's statement, is that at the end of the day,
11 the Tribunal will look at what evidence is before it
12 and will make decisions as to what we have proved and
13 what we have not proved. And if we fail to provide
14 this, then is the appropriate time to reach a
15 conclusion as to whether it exists or not.
16 It is our obligation to provide it. We bear
17 the burden of proof. If we don't do that, then you can
18 decide appropriately. But to argue these issues right
19 now and say that a decision should be reached one way
20 or another, I think that's just premature.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right.
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry. What were the
23 other points that I needed to address?
24 In reference to the notes of Mr. Curtis, this
25 gets into this bigger issue which Mr. Fila wanted to
1 discuss about our obligation to turn over materials.
2 In relation to the notes in particular, the
3 position that we took, and I still stand by this as
4 being appropriate, is that this was a work product,
5 that we have the right to go and interview any person
6 we want to. If notes are made on that, it is our
7 internal work product.
8 Rule 66A requires only that we turn over
9 signed statements of Prosecution witnesses. That is
10 the rule as it is written. It is explicit -- I
11 believe, unless it has been changed.
12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the notes are used as
13 something that will be evidence. Your Honour --
14 JUDGE MAY: Please, Mr. Fila.
15 MR. FILA: -- just one thing.
16 JUDGE MAY: Let me just try to find out
17 what's going on. What use do you want to make of the
18 notes now?
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: The use that we want to make
20 of the notes at this time is Mr. Curtis will refer to
21 them in his testimony. I am going to pose very limited
22 questions to him, only on the issues wherein
23 Mr. Novakovic's testimony differed from Mr. Curtis's
24 version of events. To that extent, I will pose the
25 questions to Mr. Curtis. If he needs to refer to his
1 notes, that's fine.
2 If Mr. Fila wishes these notes to be entered
3 into evidence, we have no objection to that at this
4 point. We feel that, however, they are largely
5 irrelevant. They cover a number of issues of which
6 there was no disagreement about; they cover some issues
7 which no testimony was offered on. It is not a signed
8 statement. It is the notes of Mr. Curtis.
9 We have no problem with Mr. Fila having a
10 chance to look at these, see what's in there, see if
11 what he is testifying to is consistent with what's in
12 the notes. If he wishes them to be entered into the
13 record for the sake of completeness, we have no
14 objection. In fact, we feel like it actually assists
16 But again, the issue that we feel is before
17 the court is what our obligations are under
18 cross-examination. We have an obligation to turn over
19 statements of our witnesses that we call. We have
20 interviewed probably 50, 70 additional witnesses in
21 relation to Vukovar that weren't called in this case
22 for a variety of reasons --
23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment now. You are now
24 seeking to call a witness in rebuttal.
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's correct.
1 JUDGE MAY: And at the moment, there is no
2 document given to the Defence or before the court
3 referring to that evidence. You are just calling him
4 blind. You may know what he is going to say, or what
5 you think he is going to say, but nobody else does.
6 That's the position, isn't it?
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think that I have laid out
8 exactly what he will say during the course of questions
9 that I put to Mr. Novakovic. Because I asked him
10 specifically and said: Did you tell Mr. Curtis on this
11 date this? Did you tell Mr. Curtis this?
12 Those are the only questions that I will put
13 to him. I am not going to go into any other areas,
14 anything else that was discussed. So I think I've
15 given adequate notice a month ago as to the questions
16 that I would address to him. We made it clear at that
17 time that anything that Mr. Novakovic disagreed with,
18 we would call Mr. Curtis in rebuttal but only on those
19 issues. So it's very limited.
20 JUDGE MAY: You've got, have you, photocopies
21 of the relevant part of the notes, or can you obtain
22 photocopies if we want them --
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: We have them in their
24 entirety, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But if we wanted a part,
1 the part that you are going to deal with, the relevant
2 part, you could give us those?
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: The problem is, there were
4 several issues and they are interspersed throughout the
5 notes. What it would require is for us to then go
6 through and redact everything else that is in the notes
7 which, I mean, we can certainly do, but you will end up
8 with probably ten pages of black Magic Marker and three
9 or four lines.
10 It's up to the court how you want to handle
12 JUDGE MAY: How many pages are there in all?
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think in relation to
14 Mr. Novakovic it's -- if I might put a question to
15 Mr. Curtis for these purposes?
16 Mr. Curtis, is this -- it's only
17 Mr. Novakovic's notes that are included here?
18 MR. CURTIS: Can I just mention that I
19 haven't been sworn in yet? But it doesn't matter.
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am just asking this, if
21 you can assist.
22 MR. CURTIS: Yes.
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. It's 15 pages.
24 JUDGE MAY: What is your objection in
25 principle to Mr. Fila having those notes?
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: We have no objection to him
2 having those notes and we are happy to give those to
3 him. Our objection was that meant that we had an
4 obligation to turn it over before cross-examination,
5 which Mr. Fila was saying that we should have given
6 over the statement of Mr. Licina before
7 cross-examination --
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, let me
9 interrupt. For the moment, that's a separate issue.
10 What we have to decide at the moment is whether
11 Mr. Fila is entitled to a copy of these notes now. At
12 least as I understand it, that's the issue.
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's fine. We have no
14 objection. I am happy to provide him with the notes.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Williamson,
16 therefore, we would like to receive the notes after
17 redaction, and also, of course, Mr. Fila should also
18 receive a copy of these notes after redaction, so that
19 you take out all the points which are not relevant.
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, Your Honour.
21 That will take some time. I can't do it right here in
22 court. It would require at least 30 minutes.
23 MR. FILA: Your Honour, we have plenty of
24 time in June to take a look at this, but I just wanted
25 to say one thing, Your Honour.
1 I got the notes from the meeting Mr. Curtis
2 had with Mr. Dokmanovic, and we are not going to use
3 that. I mean, I got that from the Office of the
4 Prosecutor. I have already been given that once.
5 But I asked, just as they gave me those notes
6 from that conversation, because -- and we did not use
7 that set of notes, Mr. Williamson and I agreed on that,
8 and the same way I got those notes, I had requested
9 these notes. So we already had a precedent, don't we?
10 So I just protested, because last time Mr. Niemann
11 said, because this is according to American procedure,
12 that if the rebuttal is used with certain -- rebuttal
13 proof is used with certain notes, the Defence should
14 take a look at it so they could prepare themselves.
15 So that is what I wish to say. And we can
16 hear Mr. Curtis in June. It is not all that important
17 if I get the notes and if I find these responses of
18 Mr. Curtis's.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might
20 respond to that?
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: First of all, I think there
23 is a clear distinction between a statement made by
24 Mr. Dokmanovic. We gave over that to Mr. Fila because
25 we felt obligated to give him any information we had
1 regarding things that Mr. Dokmanovic had said. So I
2 think there is a clear distinction between that
3 situation and the one here.
4 And in reply to what he said -- what
5 Mr. Niemann said in court, and I will quote him
6 directly from the transcript, he says: "They are not
7 matters which are discoverable under the rules and,
8 Your Honours, at the end of the day, if there are any
9 notes made by the witness which he would rely upon for
10 the purpose of his testimony, the appropriate time is
11 then for Mr. Fila to call for them and say 'I want to
12 inspect those notes,' and then they can be made
13 available at that stage. It is inappropriate at the
14 moment to be asking for them."
15 Mr. Niemann did not say at any time that we
16 would provide these in advance, he said at the time
17 that he was testifying, and we are following that as it
18 is written in the transcript.
19 MR. FILA: That is in advance, before the
20 witness starts to speak. That is what I asked for.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, all right. I think
22 now we have reached an agreement whereby Mr. Williamson
23 will kindly hand in the notes, redacted notes.
24 However, I think it would be a waste of time to put off
25 everything until June because, I mean, we still have
2 I wonder whether we could discuss other
3 matters while the redaction may be carried out. I
4 wonder whether you yourself have got to redact those
5 notes. Because if you could ask somebody else, then we
6 could move on and discuss other issues.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Sure, Your Honour. It's not
8 necessary for me to do it personally.
9 Perhaps if Mr. Curtis can step out, and he
10 knows exactly where they are in the notes, and along
11 with Mr. Vos. They can do that.
12 Again, I think that at the point that we
13 actually start taking testimony from Mr. Curtis, it
14 will only take 15 or 20 minutes. I think this will be
15 very brief.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: If I might just have a
18 moment to give instructions?
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might
22 also. There is, at the conclusion of the interviews
23 that Mr. Curtis conducted, he prepared a typed report
24 as well, which incorporates his notes. So we will also
25 redact that. But during the course of this trip he
1 interviewed, I believe, seven witnesses. So we will
2 pull out the portion that refers to Mr. Novakovic and
3 we will redact that portion alone, because some of the
4 reports refer to Defence witnesses who did not testify
5 in this matter. So we will remove everything else. We
6 will have that as well.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Now, let us now
8 use our time also to address two other issues.
9 First of all, what about the document which
10 has been given by Mr. Fila? The set of documents,
11 D147, I wonder whether the Prosecutor had a chance of
12 glancing through these documents to say whether
13 he objects to the tendering.
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I
15 don't mean to interrupt. This is the set of documents
16 that refer to the currency, the Dina. We would have no
17 objection to those documents.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So it's D147.
19 And it's a set of documents. All right.
20 What about D148, the interview with
21 Mr. Berghofer?
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: We would have an objection
23 to this one, as Mr. Fila predicted.
24 It's an interview, an alleged interview that
25 appears in a newspaper from Croatia. It's apparently
1 -- it is certainly subject to editing. We have no way
2 of knowing what Mr. Berghofer has said, and we would
3 also object on the grounds of relevance. But this
4 issue was raised in relation to an interview earlier,
5 by Mr. Fila, that Dr. Wheeler gave after testifying.
6 And after speaking with Dr. Wheeler, we determined that
7 there were gross inaccuracies in the interview, and
8 this is in the same publication. So, for that reason
9 alone, we would object to its admission into evidence.
10 MR. FILA: I think that I did not suggest
11 Mr. Wheeler. As far as Mr. Wheeler's interview is
12 concerned, let me be quite clear. I thought that it
13 was not polite towards this court, and that is what I
14 wrote, that experts make statements to the press and
15 assess the work of the court. That was the problem, as
16 far as Mr. Wheeler is concerned, not what he said.
17 He's not supposed to speak -- to say that, "I prove
18 that such and such a person is guilty and I ascertain
19 this, I ascertain that." That's the problem with
20 Mr. Wheeler, but I didn't ask for this to be evidence,
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I again will
23 take issue with that, because, I think, as we reported
24 in our response to that, Dr. Wheeler did not make the
25 statements that Mr. Fila is attributing to him. He did
1 in fact give an interview. I don't think that there is
2 anything that we can do, as an institution, to keep
3 people from giving interviews. Perhaps lawyers, and
4 certainly members of the Office of the Prosecutor, can
5 have restrictions placed on them about giving
6 interviews, but I'm not sure that there's much that we
7 can do about other persons doing that. Perhaps there
8 is, and it would probably be beneficial, but --
9 JUDGE MAY: You could tell them,
10 Mr. Williamson, not to give interviews, couldn't you?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Certainly, but we weren't
12 anticipating this. We had no way of knowing.
13 And I know, Judge May, from your jurisdiction
14 there are very strict rules in relation to publication
15 of ongoing cases, and I think that those would work
16 better in my jurisdiction, if we had some of those
17 restrictions. But, as I said, we don't have any of
18 those restrictions in place right now. This was not an
19 issue that we knew anything about in advance. The
20 first time we found out about it was when we received
21 the request from Mr. Fila.
22 As I said, when we made inquiries with
23 Dr. Wheeler, we determined that much of what was
24 reported in the article was inaccurate.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: In any case, it was
1 absolutely inappropriate of Mr. Wheeler to give an
2 interview. I think in future we will ask witnesses not
3 to say anything about what happens here in court. This
4 applies to both fact witnesses and expert witnesses, of
6 Now, as for the -- let us now discuss this
7 issue of Mr. Berghofer's interview.
8 I'm afraid we can't admit this interview into
9 evidence, because, of course, otherwise -- to check the
10 veracity of what was said here, we would have to call
11 the reporter and Mr. Berghofer. I think -- he should
12 not have given this interview.
13 MR. FILA: Your Honour, yes. But I mentioned
14 it in my opening statements, and I would have deemed it
15 unprofessional had I not done what I did, because I
16 mentioned him. And, according to our system, too, they
17 are not allowed to make statements because this
18 disqualifies them, witnesses and experts alike. So
19 none of my witnesses have opened their mouths since the
20 trial began.
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I appreciate
22 what Mr. Fila is saying, but I think this is, perhaps,
23 a little bit inappropriate coming from him. Because
24 Mr. Fila has made a number of comments to the press in
25 regard to this case, and in regard to the Tribunal, and
1 some of them which have been very critical of the
2 working of the Tribunal. We have now raised this
3 issue, but this is not a one-sided thing of our
4 witnesses. If Mr. Fila feels very strongly about this,
5 then I think the same rules should apply to him and
6 what he is saying publicly about this institution.
7 MR. FILA: What I say publicly -- I mean, you
8 will have to prove that I said it. I never gave that
9 interview, the one that you are referring to. And also
10 -- I mean, in terms of the response you gave me.
11 Never did I ever utter these words. And not even know,
12 I don't see what this is talking about. I don't even
13 know what you are talking about. What I said, on
14 television, for example, in Banja Luka and in Baranja,
15 next to me is Mr. Westendorp's censor, who would have
16 turned off my microphone, had I said anything wrong.
17 On the contrary, our opinions in Yugoslavia
18 are such, and Mr. Casesse knows this, when he was
19 President of the Tribunal, when I used to come here,
20 there was the question of the legitimacy of this court,
21 whether in accordance with the Charter of the United
22 Nations, Chapter 7, whether it was legitimate to
23 establish this court or not. But once this has been
24 done it has been done. And that is what I kept saying
25 in each and every one of the statements. The court is
1 here now, and if this court were illegitimate, the
2 members of the United Nations would have voted in
3 favour of not having it exist, and no one protested. No
4 one voted against the establishment of this court. So
5 there. So what Sona writes? I mean, this is a
6 war between news agencies and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 For example, the Sona agency says that Louise
8 Arbour calls all our people criminals, that Serbs are
9 75 percent guilty, 20 percent Croats and five percent
10 Muslims. And I know that that is incorrect, but that
11 is what it says in those papers, you know.
12 I am not complaining. I am just saying that
13 expert witnesses should not make statements to the
14 press after the trial, after testifying, and that they
15 should not speak about their testimonies. And this is
16 not allowed in my system either. Privately you can
17 have an opinion about me, about anyone, and any kind of
18 opinion you wish to have.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I think this is
20 just the inherent danger of --
21 MR. FILA: It's not nice to bring me into
22 this story, but never mind.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: May I say that -- I mean, I'm
24 sure that we all agree, first of all, that nobody
25 should give interviews. And also, and this is the
1 second point, because we all know reporters, they
2 deform our thinking, our words, they put words into
3 your mouth and so on. So this is further reason why
4 everybody, from judges, prosecutors, defence counsel,
5 witnesses and so on, must refrain from talking to the
6 media. Because the media, I mean, are very keen to --
7 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the tape that I
8 showed you as an alibi, the alibi tape, was never shown
9 on Yugoslav television, but from here it was broadcast
10 on Croatian television, you know. On Serb
11 television it was never broadcast. (redacted)
16 I mean it was so obvious, it was on television. Mr Waespipy has the
17 tape. Let him tell you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, first of all, I think
19 we have now to redact, because you should not have
20 mentioned the testimony --
21 MR. FILA: Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: -- of a particular witness.
23 All right. But I think the problem has been fleshed
24 out now sufficiently and we can move on to an important
25 matter, which is of great importance to us, namely, the
1 submission by both parties now of the statements to be
2 called in the final week. So the rebuttal witnesses
3 and those witnesses Mr. Fila intends to call. We would
4 like to give you a deadline. We would like to ask both
5 parties to submit to each other, and to the court, all
6 those statements by the 15th of June. So one week
7 before the week when we start -- we resume our
9 MR. FILA: I just wish to repeat one thing.
10 I am going to hand in everything I have, and you know
11 what you will be receiving, a few people who will be
12 speaking about his character and also the expert
13 witness. But, please, may I receive in good time
14 rebuttal evidence so that I could get prepared?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: That's why I said 15th of
16 June. 15th of June. I think -- I wonder whether the
17 Prosecutor could -- do you need all the statements,
18 witness statements in Serbian?
19 MR. FILA: No, no, no, no. It can be in
20 English. It can be in Swahili, if you wish. Just give
21 it to me. But I know what it's about, you know.
22 Please, I cannot respond on the very same morning of
23 the 15th of June. I should provide my own on the 15th,
24 or by the 15th. But I have to get that from the
25 Prosecutor before that, so that I can respond to his
1 too, because I imagine that the Prosecutor is not going
2 to respond to me, because there is nothing to respond
3 about. I mean, I imagine that that is the case, but he
4 has the right to do so.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, what do you mean by
7 MR. FILA: You know, you know, he has the
8 right to rebuttal, and in terms of the evidence that I
9 am going to present, but the evidence that I am going
10 to present are really character witnesses in terms of
11 Mr. Dokmanovic. So I don't really see, you know --
12 JUDGE CASSESE: So what is important is, as I
13 say --
14 MR. FILA: There has to be a different
15 deadline for us, you see.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: What are you suggesting,
17 Mr. Fila?
18 MR. FILA: Until the 15th we need to give
19 them to one another, and give me an additional five
20 days in respect of what the Prosecutor proposes, so
21 that then I can give possible rebuttal. So perhaps let
22 us shorten the deadline. Let it be June 10th.
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might,
24 before you go into conference. I'm sorry. I think we
25 may need until the 15th for some witnesses. We will
1 certainly hand over anything that we get in advance of
2 that. We will not wait until the 15th, if we have
3 something available prior to then. But we are just
4 concluding today, and we are going to have some expert
5 analysis done, and I am not sure that we will have all
6 of our reports available prior to then.
7 Anything we do have available, as soon as we
8 get it, we'll hand it over to the Defence, but we would
9 like to keep the date of the 15th as a final deadline.
10 Hopefully, everything can be handed over prior to that,
11 but, if necessary, to go up to that date.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, may ask you,
13 Mr. Williamson, what sort of evidence are you going to
14 call? I mean, you spoke of rebuttal witnesses. Could
15 you give us --
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I can't tell
17 you with complete specificity at this point. I mean,
18 the case has just finished. We are still trying to
19 analyze this. We will call several witnesses in
20 relation to the issue of the videotape to establish the
21 whereabouts of where that -- of exactly where we are
22 saying this part that is depicted at 15.42 actually is.
23 So the bulk of the testimony will be related to that.
24 We probably will call one fact witness in
25 relation to some of the things that were said during
1 the course of Defence testimony, and perhaps one or two
2 other experts on other areas. But, again, this is
3 something that we are discussing, we are still trying
4 to resolve.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Nothing about the possible
6 editing of the tape? No expert witness --
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: It may be, yes, Your
8 Honour. But this is something that we have not been in
9 a position to do up until now, because we had to hear
10 the testimony before we can have someone go and tell us
11 what -- whether this is consistent or inconsistent.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: We are wondering, because, I
13 mean, the tape was available to you, has been available
14 for -- and Mr. Fila, actually, asked you, many times,
15 to ask the Dutch police to make a --
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: We did, Your Honour. We
17 went to the Dutch police, and we were told that with a
18 copy of a tape, that they were not able to do any
19 analysis on it, that in fact anything could be done
20 with a copy, and they just did not feel in a position
21 to do any analysis. Since that time we have made other
22 inquiries, and at this time it appears that the FBI
23 laboratory in the United States is in a position to do
24 analysis on the tape that was not available to us from
25 someone else.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: So, therefore, we must give
2 time to the Defence to call experts and so on, if you
3 are going to produce this sort of -- I would say that,
4 in any case, we think that you should hand to the
5 Defence all the relevant material, namely, the expert
6 -- sorry, witness statements, by the 12th of June at
7 12.00 p.m.
8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, Your Honour.
9 We'll comply with that.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: So by Friday at 12. At least
11 you have some more time. Whereas you, Mr. Fila, you
12 would have until the 15th of June.
13 MR. FILA: On the 15th of June I am going to
14 respond, and I don't have to receive the statements in
15 Serbian at all. Oh, yes, yes, I can even give it
16 earlier. It's very little, you know. No problem with
17 me, you know. But, please, may this be rebuttal-proof,
18 as Judge May said? Let us not introduce new evidence
19 and let us not start giving completely new evidence once
20 again. I hope I have understood the Prosecutor
21 correctly, that this is rebuttal. I mean, not someone
22 who did not come the first time and who was on that
23 list and now introducing new witnesses. Did I
24 understand you correctly?
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, certainly, the
1 evidence that we are he presenting is largely in
2 response to the alibi. Under no system, that I am
3 aware of, would we be expected to rebut an alibi before
4 it is actually presented. The bulk of what we will be
5 presenting during this time relates to the alibi.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Curtis -- Mr. Williamson.
7 I'm sorry. With regard to what you have just said.
8 But I thought that the reason why the rules make it
9 obligatory for the Defence to give notice of the alibi
10 and all the evidence they are going to call for the
11 alibi is precisely what you said, that the Prosecution
12 should have time to investigate it and call their
13 witnesses during the time that they are giving the
14 Prosecution evidence.
15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: And on the tape -- the
17 Prosecution were handed this tape. If it was a copy,
18 you had enough time to ask for the original and things
19 like that. So one wonders why you should do it in
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: I apologise for
23 First of all, Your Honours, there is no
24 original tape. There is no original. All that we have
25 is a copy. The testimony was that the original was
1 made on a mini-cassette, so the best copy we have is a
2 first generation copy. So there was no original
3 available. We made efforts to get that, we made
4 inquiries of Mr. Fila, but he made it clear to us, in
5 all fairness to him, from the beginning, that there was
6 no original.
7 Yes, we have an obligation to investigate an
8 alibi, but I think that what this is, is so that we can
9 put questions to alibi witnesses, so that we are not
10 caught off guard completely when alibi witnesses come
11 into the courtroom; that we should be able to prepare
12 and be in a position to cross-examine them
13 intelligently and not hear about an alibi for the first
14 time when a witness sits down and we've had no chance
15 to investigate what they are saying.
16 But I don't think that the rules can be read
17 in such a way, I would respectfully suggest, that we
18 are required to rebut an alibi before the testimony has
19 already been put forward.
20 I mean, I think that if that is the case --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. To investigate the
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, Your Honour, we have
24 attempted to investigate it, and we have. And it was
25 during the course of this investigation that we have
1 determined that there were alterations made to the
2 videotape or that -- either the witnesses have been
3 untruthful. It's one or the other. As soon as we had
4 learned this, we have made efforts to then have this
5 testing done, but at the point that we have made final
6 conclusions on this, we -- until the point where we
7 have made final conclusions that this has occurred, we
8 weren't in a position to go forward with any testing.
9 I mean, we will comply with the court's order
10 to do this by June the 12th. If I can have it done
11 before that, we certainly will.
12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I simply do not think
13 so, if it is my duty to say that I should be presenting
14 alibi evidence. I have given statements to the
15 Prosecutor, and it was obvious that they were talking
16 about a tape, and at the request of this court I gave a
17 tape. And that is the only tape I have in my
18 possession. That is the one that you have now.
19 So there is not an original. There is just a
20 mini-tape, and that's been destroyed, and you heard
21 about this. So the copy that this court has is the one
22 that was identified by witness Lazarevic, the copy that
23 he gave me. So that is the original, so-to-speak, the
24 one I had in my hands. The mother of all cassettes
25 from which the others were made.
1 The Prosecutor had enough time to rebut it by
2 witnesses. I am not complaining -- let the FBI see it,
3 let everybody else see it, but this is a technical
4 matter, and I would not like to see another thing. And
5 it is against the rules, to bring in new witnesses now
6 which would prove that he was somewhere else, and
7 something that is not related to the tape. Everything
8 that is related to the tape is fine, but this other
9 business, no.
10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very
11 briefly. The issue that is here, and what determined
12 to us that there was falsification of the tape, was at
13 the point that a witness said that these buses were in
14 Negoslavci. Mr. Fila had said that approximately a
15 month ago, when he stood up and said it from the bar
16 table, but we had no testimony to that effect. We
17 determined where we thought this was. It was only at
18 the point that one of his witnesses testified under
19 oath that this was in fact in Negoslavci that we
20 realised or that we felt that they were putting forward
21 something which was not correct. And that's when we
22 initiated these efforts, to make all these
23 determinations. But we cannot be expected to
24 anticipate what his witnesses are going to say. In all
25 of their statements, not one person said that these
1 buses were in Negoslavci.
2 MR. FILA: But, Your Honour, that is not a
3 contestable point. We are not contesting that. I
4 accept what you are saying, what you are saying now. I
5 just do not want the witnesses to appear who could have
6 been used earlier. And the witness that you have
7 mentioned now, who said that they were not in
8 Negoslavci, but in Cameroon, for example, I have got
9 nothing against that. That is something new, novel.
10 And I agree, and there is no difference of opinion
11 between us. I just don't want to see a witness, for
12 example, some other Ante Markovic or Mesic or, God
13 knows, some other Mesic. That is what I don't want to
14 see or hear. That's against the rules, I feel. But
15 everything that would be evidence showing that the tape
16 was falsified, that I falsified it, or whatever you
17 want, that's all right. Of course I would never do
18 that. That's all right. There is no problem with
19 that. I am not questioning that.
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: One other point, if I might
21 make it, please. Before we closed our case,
22 Mr. Niemann expressly addressed this issue to the
23 court, and he said what had been done in the
24 Tadic case, where there were fairly liberal rules as to
25 what would be allowed under rebuttal. At that point we
1 put this issue to the court, and I think, in all
2 fairness, that if additional restrictions are being
3 placed on us now, we should then be allowed to reopen
4 our case, if that is the situation.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, let me
6 interrupt. Clearly, the position as to the tape is of
7 crucial importance, in particular the position about
8 where the buses were at 3.42. It would, therefore, be
9 helpful if you were to find what references there were
10 to that during the course, if any, of the Prosecution
11 case, and whether it's so that the first reference to
12 their being in Negoslavci came during the Defence case,
13 as my recollection is. But that should be checked.
14 But we are dealing, are we not, with an
15 hypothesis at the moment, because we don't know what
16 your evidence is going to be. It may be that we would
17 be in a better position to resolve it when we know what
18 it is, and how it is that you put the case, that this
19 is rebuttal evidence.
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I think that's
21 a very fair assessment.
22 Probably all sides here are not that far
23 apart on this. We don't intend, by any means, to abuse
24 this privilege. We want to comply with what the court
25 has said. We want to condense this as much as possible
1 and get it out. We are not planning on parading a
2 whole crowd of witnesses before the court again and
3 replaying our case. Anything that we say at this point
4 is going to be in response to things that came in the
5 Defence case. The bulk of it is addressed to the alibi
6 video, and beyond that -- again, it's not going to be
7 extensive evidence.
8 But I agree with Your Honours' position, that
9 you should see what we have, what we are going to
10 present, and then everyone can talk about this in a
11 more educated fashion, and we are not talking around
13 Honestly, at this point, I am not in a
14 position to say exactly what we will be doing. And so
15 I am at somewhat of a disadvantage, because I am trying
16 to argue for factors that are not completely known to
17 me, but not trying to put myself into a corner where,
18 if we determine we need to do something, I have already
19 ruled that possibility out, just out of ignorance of
20 the situation.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. All right. I
22 think, in any case, we will -- first of all, let us
23 stick to this deadline which I have set.
24 Again, for the Prosecutor, 12th of June at
25 12.00 p.m., everything should be turned over to the
1 Defence in English; if possible, in Serbian. Whereas
2 the Defence counsel has a deadline, the 15th of June.
3 Of course, on any matter which is questionable, we
4 reserve the right to rule on the admissibility of the
5 evidence, of the relevant evidence, and we will do so,
6 if objections are raised to the admissibility of
7 evidence, of rebuttal evidence.
8 I wonder whether we could now hear
9 Mr. Curtis.
10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe
11 Mr. Waespi went just now to check on this.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: As for the document -- the
13 interview with Mr. Berghofer, I think it is not put in
14 evidence, and so we will give it back to the Registrar.
15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I understand
16 from Mr. Waespi that they need about five more minutes,
17 at the most.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: We can't open our discussion
19 -- hear arguments from the parties about the
20 particular legal issue which we reserved for some time
21 this week, for Wednesday, the one mentioned by the
22 Defence counsel about the right of the Prosecutor to
23 hand in -- to call witnesses without previously handing
24 in statements and so on. I think we can probably put
25 it off, because it would take more than five minutes.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you agree, Mr. Fila?
3 MR. FILA: As you will, Your Honour. I would
4 just like to know -- there is the possibility, and I
5 accepted that, that the Prosecution bring witnesses
6 without statements. For example, an officer of the
7 prosecuting office who they've called by telephone has
8 come down, that's all right, or, for example, like
9 Licina and so on. But that he has the statement and
10 that I am not given the statement, that I find
11 unacceptable. That is the essence of the problem.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I don't think
13 that we have done that. I think at any point where we
14 have a statement of a Prosecution witness, we have
15 handed that over. Perhaps it's a -- I think the issue,
16 I think, is a Defence witness. It's a Defence
17 witness. It's cross-examination.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Actually, this was
19 about the --
20 (Talking simultaneously)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: -- the Defence witness, and you had
22 a statement from the Defence witness, and you produced
23 in court the statement.
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's correct, Your
25 Honour. Again, in reading the Rule, it says we have an
1 obligation to turn over witness statements of
2 Prosecution witnesses. I know you've put off this
3 argument, but --
4 MR. FILA: And when --
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think it goes to the whole
6 nature of cross-examination. If we are not going to
7 get into that at this point, I won't, but it's -- I
8 certainly have views on that, and I think the Office of
9 the Prosecutor does. And what we did is, in compliance
10 with the policy that is set forth in the Rules, and
11 what has been done in both the Tadic and the
12 Blaskic cases. We have not veered from that policy
13 whatsoever, and there was no precedent to us that we
14 should have acted in a different way.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: I know the position of now
16 both the parties. We would probably try to think it
17 over --
18 MR. FILA: May I just remind you of
19 something. Additional statements taken three years
20 ago, as with Cvetkovic, for example, I got on the very
21 morning, whereas it was taken only three years ago.
22 And three years later Prosecutor Williamson remembered
23 to find it on that particular morning, and not when the
24 indictment was raised. That's true. I want to believe
25 you or not to believe you, but it's not -- it's not all
1 right that things should be like that.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: But this again is a different
3 matter, because Cvetkovic was a Prosecution witness.
4 So what you are claiming now, what you are arguing now,
5 is that the witness statement should have been given
6 you before, not the very same day.
7 MR. FILA: Of course. Yes, of course. That
8 is the crux of the issue. Both sides. Because if it
9 is our aim here -- you know what the question is. What
10 the aim of this hearing is, of this trial is, to
11 determine the truth, or to hide things from one another
12 and to see who is more intelligent, the Prosecution or
13 the Defence, myself. That's the essence. If the
14 object is the truth, then they can be supplied on
16 JUDGE CASSESE: I take the liberty of
17 quoting. Before we started with this trial, it struck
18 me what one day Judge May told me, and I think he was
19 quite wise in saying that. "In any case, in this
20 Tribunal we should avoid trial by ambush," as he put
21 it. And I think he is quite right. I think this is
22 precisely what we should avoid. I mean, by all means.
23 So therefore, in light of this
24 basic notion, we should call upon both parties to
25 disclose their material as soon as possible. But the
1 particular technical issue we are discussing now was
2 totally different; namely, to what extent the
3 Prosecutor has the obligation to give the Defence a
4 statement taken from a Defence witness. This was a
5 different issue, and we have probably to reflect upon,
6 to ponder this issue well, and we may decide to make a
8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we would
9 certainly like to put arguments to the court before a
10 ruling is made, because we have very strong positions
11 on this. And I think that, as I said, if the court
12 rules contrary to the position that we are advocating,
13 this is a different path than what has been accepted in
14 our trials, and it has a great precedent effect.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: It may not even be -- sorry
16 to interrupt you. It may not even be important to make
17 a ruling. I was thinking, for the sake of legal
18 propriety and of proceeding in a proper judicial
19 manner, to have a clear picture of the legal framework
20 of our proceedings, but probably for our particular
21 trial --
22 MR. FILA: Your Honour, quite certainly we
23 won't be in a situation of that kind again, because
24 we've completed our witnesses. I just wanted to have
25 the same intention. It wasn't correct to do so.
1 Nothing else from me.
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: What I wanted to say, in
3 conclusion, is just that we are not accusing Mr. Fila
4 of acting in bad faith, and I can say to the court that
5 we have not acted in bad faith.
6 There are a lot of problems that revolve
7 around witnesses, that are in other countries, that
8 things get tied up in translation. You know, Mr. Fila
9 in the last few days has presented us with a lot of
10 documents at the last minute. We accept that these
11 things are going to happen and, you know, we certainly
12 try to comply with all the rules, but I think it's
13 important to recognise that everyone here is acting in
14 good faith, and this is not an intent to deceive or to
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MR. FILA: But, Your Honour, that's not what
18 I said. I just want to say that it is not the level of
19 this court to do this kind of thing to each other. As
20 a young lawyer, of course, I was used to this in the
21 common and municipal courts. I was president of the
22 chamber of lawyers and I had a lawyer who swallowed one
23 of the crucial papers in the case. We had that too.
24 But that's not our level here. That's not up to our
1 JUDGE CASSESE: I hope that we can now hear
2 Mr. Curtis.
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, Your Honour. I have
4 these here now, the redacted notes, so we would put
5 these forward.
6 First of all, the redacted notes, and then
7 the redacted report as well, which, as I indicated, is
8 part of a larger report, and we have taken out the only
9 -- the portion that refers to Mr. Novakovic and have
10 redacted all of those portions which relate to issues
11 upon which I am not going to question him.
12 THE REGISTRAR: The documents are marked
13 Prosecution Exhibit 211 and 212.
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Bos, what are
15 the numbers again?
16 THE REGISTRAR: 211 and 212.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: 211 being the notes and 212
18 being the report, the typed report?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
20 (The witness entered court)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Curtis, I'm sorry. I
22 apologise for this delay. Could you please make the
23 solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
4 WITNESS: KEVIN CURTIS
5 Examined by Mr. Williamson
6 MR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Curtis.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. I wonder whether
8 Mr. Fila needed some time. Do you need some time to go
9 through the notes?
10 MR. FILA: While Mr. Williamson is asking his
11 questions, I'll be able to read through them, I hope.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: It is very brief, Your
14 MR. WILLIAMSON:
15 Q. Mr. Curtis where are you employed?
16 A. For the Office of the Prosecutor at the
17 International Tribunal.
18 Q. Are you seconded to the Tribunal?
19 A. Yes, I have been seconded since the 1st of
20 May 1995, as an investigator.
21 Q. Where are you seconded from the?
22 A. From the Warwickshire constabulary in
24 Q. How long have you been a police officer?
25 A. Seventeen years.
1 Q. During the course of those 17 years what type
2 of work have you been engaged in?
3 A. For the past 15 I have been engaged in
4 criminal investigations, and included in that is a
5 supervisory role with serious investigations.
6 Investigations into serious crime, and also around the
7 4th intelligence bureau for a while.
8 Q. Since arriving at the Tribunal, have you been
9 involved in the investigation of events which occurred
10 in the Vukovar region of Croatia in 1991?
11 A. Yes, since 1995.
12 Q. And in that capacity did you have occasion to
13 interview Ljuba Novakovic in February of this year?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And what were the circumstances under which
16 this interview took place? Were there a series of
17 interviews conducted?
18 A. Yes. From Mr. Fila's office we were given
19 details of potential Defence witnesses, and I, with
20 others, was involved in the interviewing of those
21 witnesses in various locations in Croatia and Serbia.
22 Q. And where did you interview Mr. Novakovic?
23 A. In his office in Backa Palanka.
24 Q. And when did this occur?
25 A. On the 20th of February, 1998.
1 Q. When you interviewed Mr. Novakovic, were you
2 accompanied by an interpreter?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. And was this interpreter certified by the
5 Tribunal to translate from Serbian to English and vice
7 A. Yes. And I am aware of that, although I have
8 not worked with her before.
9 Q. Was anybody else present when you interviewed
10 Mr. Novakovic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you explain to Mr. Novakovic your purpose
13 for being there?
14 A. In no uncertain terms I explained exactly who
15 I was, the reason why I was there, and that we -- I
16 wished to talk about the statement that he gave to
17 Mr. Fila's office.
18 Q. Did he then indicate a willingness to answer
19 your questions?
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. When you were conducting this interview, did
22 you make any notes as to what was being said?
23 A. Yes. I took the notes at the time.
24 Q. And did you use these notes to prepare a
25 report, after you returned to The Hague?
1 A. I prepared the report from the notes the
2 following day, in Belgrade.
3 Q. And do you have those notes and the report in
4 court with you today?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. During the course of your interview with
7 Mr. Novakovic, did you have occasion to ask him about
8 how often he had had contacts with Slavko Dokmanovic
9 during the autumn of 1991?
10 A. Yes, I did. May I refer to my notes, Your
11 Honours? Or, in fact, the report.
12 On the second page of the report, I've put
13 down what he told me; "that from about September
14 onwards in 1991, I used to see Slavko at least every
15 other day and on those days we did not meet. We would
16 speak with each other on the telephone. I would go to
17 places like Bobota, Trpinja, Vera, or wherever they
18 needed aid. And of course I would deal mostly with
19 Slavko, because he used to be the Mayor."
20 Q. As you spoke with Mr. Novakovic, what term
21 did he use when referring to the position that he held,
22 and the position that Mr. Dokmanovic had held?
23 A. He referred to them both as the Mayor. And
24 because this term had been an issue from the outset of
25 the arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic, I clarified that through
1 the interpreter, and he used the term Mayor.
2 Q. Did Mr. Novakovic state anything to you in
3 relation to how he viewed Mr. Dokmanovic's status as
4 Mayor during the autumn of 1991?
5 A. Yes. He said that -- and again I'll quote
6 from my notes, from the report; "I still held Slavko to
7 be the Mayor and therefore I felt it was important to
8 keep him informed about what was going on in the area
9 of Ilok and the fact that some Serbs had been captured
10 by Croatian extremists."
11 Q. Did he indicate to you --
12 MR. FILA: Your Honours, just a moment,
13 Mr. Williamson. If I saw this -- if I am correct, this
14 is a report and not notes? They are not notes but a
15 report; is that correct? Why has it been crossed out?
16 I don't know what it says afterwards. This is an
17 incomplete document. You can't delete things from a
18 document. What, if on that second place it says that
19 that is not true, what is being said at the moment? I
20 did not give you a -- documents cut out with scissors,
21 three sentences snipped off the top, three snipped off
22 the bottom. This is not acceptable as a document. So
23 I should like you to give a ruling on this issue.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: We had already -- we have
25 already ruled before, and -- on this matter. We
1 authorised the Prosecutor to redact this document, both
2 the handwritten notes and the --
3 MR. FILA: The notes, he said.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: -- and the typewritten
5 report. The Prosecutor was authorized by the Trial
6 Chamber to redact, because there are references to
7 other matters which are of no relevance to the
8 particular interview with Mr. Novakovic.
9 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the Prosecutor
10 explained that he had talked -- that Mr. Curtis had
11 talked to seven witnesses, and that he would be
12 deleting that, but this is the talk with Mr. Novakovic
13 alone. Only with Mr. Novakovic. And he is crossing
14 out part of his interview with Novakovic, which relates
15 to Ilok and the rest. You did not bring in a ruling of
16 that kind, to that effect. That is not the same thing.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe I
18 offered to hand over the entire report. And I had
19 indicated that I only wished to question Mr. Curtis on
20 very limited matters where there was -- where
21 Mr. Novakovic had denied what he said. And it was at
22 the court's instruction that we redacted it. Again, I
23 am happy to put in the entire report. But I think that
24 it generally works in our favour. But the issue here
25 was only those points which Mr. Novakovic denied.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Williamson is
2 right. I mean, the ruling was that the -- since this
3 report -- you are right, Mr. Fila, in saying that this
4 report only deals with Mr. Dokmanovic.
5 However, the redaction was authorized because
6 the points which have been crossed out are points which
7 do -- which will not be raised by Mr. Williamson in
8 examination. So that's why. But if you insist, and on
9 receiving the whole report, and Mr. Williamson is
10 prepared to do so --
11 MR. FILA: I don't insist. We just began
12 with notes at the last hearing. We have come here to
13 discuss whether we are going to get the notes or not.
14 Instead of notes, I now get a report which I heard of this
15 morning. Now I see that part of the report has been
16 crossed out. But, never mind, no problem. Let's go
18 JUDGE CASSESE: As I say, Mr. Fila, we have
19 decided, so therefore, as I say, if you don't want to
20 have the whole report which the Prosecutor --
21 typewritten report which --
22 MR. FILA: It's all right, Your Honour. Let
23 it be. Let it be as it stands.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's move on, please. Yes.
25 Mr. Williamson.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I
2 lost where my place was in going through the
3 questions. If I might just have a moment.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We were discussing the issue
5 of Mayor, and the witness was quoting the second
6 paragraph on page 2, I think.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well.
8 Q. Did Mr. Novakovic indicate to you any
9 obligation that he felt, arising from the fact that he
10 still viewed Mr. Dokmanovic as Mayor, to keep
11 Mr. Dokmanovic informed of events that were occurring
12 during this period.
13 A. Yes, and simply for that reason, because he
14 felt that Mr. Dokmanovic was still responsible and
15 still felt responsible for those people.
16 Q. Was there any discussion with Mr. Novakovic
17 in relation to the events of October 17th, 1991, when
18 people left Ilok, and if so, what was said in terms of
19 Mr. Dokmanovic's role or presence?
20 A. Yes, there was a conversation regarding that
21 matter. Mr. Novakovic said that he and Mr. Dokmanovic
22 had been authorised by their two authorities to go and
23 observe the evacuation from Ilok, and to make sure that
24 things went smoothly.
25 Q. Mr. Curtis, I would like for you now to be
1 shown these documents which have been marked as
2 Prosecutor's Exhibits 211 and 212. Tell me if you can
3 identify these documents.
4 A. I don't know which they are, but both of them
5 -- the handwritten one are my notes that I took at the
6 time of the interview, and the typed one is the report
7 that I made the following day from those notes.
8 Q. And the versions that you have here in court,
9 the notes being Prosecutor's Exhibit 211, the report
10 being 212, have been redacted from the original
11 version; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. And did you make these redactions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you redact anything other than those
16 issues not pertaining to the questions that we've
17 discussed here today?
18 A. Sorry, could you repeat.
19 Q. I did not ask that very well. What was
20 redacted from this?
21 A. The matters that the court said were not
22 relevant to the questions you were going to ask today.
23 Q. And you were present when those discussions
24 were going on in the courtroom, were you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. I have no
2 further questions.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila.
4 MR. FILA: I have an objection, Your Honour.
5 I do not accept this as evidence, that this be
6 admitted, because Mr. Dokmanovic has not been accused
7 of anything relating to Ilok.
8 Second, Mr. Novakovic was not asked here by
9 me or in the cross-examination how he experienced
10 Mr. Dokmanovic, as a Mayor, or as a football player or
11 as anything else. That was not a question asked. And
12 this is rebuttal evidence which is designed to show
13 that he said something else, and that is not what is
14 present in Mr. Novakovic's statement. The witness is
15 used for something that he is not -- not being put
16 forward for.
17 And, thirdly, I would like to ask several
19 Q. Mr. Curtis, you are a member of the
20 investigating team of the Prosecution?
21 A. I am an investigator for the Office of the
23 Q. In that office are you -- is it your duty to
24 testify? I have seen you here testifying for the
25 second time. Is your role -- is it your role to
1 testify? There are other investigators, as far as I
2 know, Mr. Druro, Mr. Milner. How come that you are the
3 one testifying every time? You testified for the
4 legitimacy of the arrest. You now come here -- is it
5 your role in the Prosecution to come up and give
6 testimony, to testify every time? I claim that you are
7 giving testimony in an interested fashion.
8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I object --
9 MR. FILA: Bias fashion. I'm sorry, bias
10 fashion. You say Dokmanovic is a murderer. I never
11 raised an objection. You are speaking in that way
12 towards the accused.
13 Q. Mr. Curtis, which language did you use in
14 talking to Mr. Novakovic?
15 A. (Answer inaudible).
16 Q. And Mr. Novakovic speaks English as well,
17 doesn't he?
18 A. I don't know if he speaks English, the
19 conversation was through an interpreter.
20 Q. Who was the interpreter? Where is the
21 interpreter? What is the interpreter's name?
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would object
23 to the name of the interpreter being put forward. I
24 mean, this is a policy that has been followed
25 throughout the proceedings of this Tribunal, and these
1 are persons who are working in the field --
2 MR. FILA: Very well, very well. I withdraw
3 my objection. So an interpreter exists. No, I
4 withdraw my question as to the name.
5 Q. So, let's say, the interpreter exists,; is
6 that right? The interpreter existed? I am not asking
7 you the name or anything else? There was an
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Just one.
10 MR. FILA: Just one.
11 Q. An interpreter did exist?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. That's all I am asking, nothing else. What
14 you asked in English, the interpreter asked in Serbian,
15 Mr. Novakovic answered in Serbian, and the interpreter
16 translated for you into English, and you wrote that
17 down in your notes, and then from the notes you drew up
18 your report; is that right? Have I said that
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Did you write those notes -- the report in
22 the presence of Mr. Novakovic, or when you went
23 wherever you went, later on?
24 A. I wrote the notes in the presence of
25 Mr. Novakovic.
1 Q. Very well. And not the report?
2 A. The report was made the following day, in
3 Belgrade. Mr. Novakovic was not in Belgrade.
4 Q. Very well. That's fine. Yes. During that
5 time wherein you had talks in the presence of
6 Mr. Novakovic, was that in Mr. Novakovic's office?
7 A. The office he told me was his, yes.
8 Q. Did he have a secretary?
9 A. In an outside office.
10 Q. Yes. At some particular point did the
11 secretary bring you any alcohol, alcoholic beverage?
12 A. I think that alcohol was offered at the
13 beginning of the interview and there was a glass of
14 rakija at the end.
15 Q. Not a bottle of whiskey between you and
16 Mr. Novakovic which was full at the beginning of the
17 talk and empty at the end of your talks?
18 A. I think that it's well-known I don't drink
19 whiskey, and I didn't drink any other alcohol during
20 the course of the interview.
21 Q. Mr. Curtis, I didn't say that you drank the
23 A. I didn't. You implied that. I did not drink
24 any alcohol during the interview.
25 Q. No. I asked whether at the beginning of the
1 talk the bottle of whiskey was full and whether it was
2 empty at the end of the discussion. That's what I
4 A. There was no whiskey or any other alcohol in
5 the room during the course of the interview.
6 Q. Which means that if I bring you witnesses who
7 will confirm that they had talks with Mr. Novakovic,
8 and his secretary, and that what you are saying is not
9 correct, is not true, will that mean that that witness
10 is not telling the truth?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I object to the
12 form of the question. He is asking him to comment on
13 future witnesses and how they will testify. It's
15 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is sustained.
16 MR. FILA: I will change my question. So it
17 means that if somebody says that it is as it is, as I
18 have asked you now, that person would not be telling
19 the truth. Is that all right? Is the question all
20 right now?
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Same objection.
22 MR. FILA: Same objection. I see.
23 Q. Very well. You therefore maintain that
24 Mr. Novakovic was completely sober when you talked to
1 A. He appeared completely sober when I spoke
2 with him, yes, and he didn't drink in my presence.
3 Q. In your presence. Yes. That's what I am
4 asking you. In your presence Mr. Novakovic did not
6 A. Not alcohol, no. Coffee, yes.
7 Q. Alcohol. That's what I am referring to.
8 Yes. Coffee, water, juice, that's a different matter.
9 That's all right now. I have the right to a
10 rejoinder, and in June you will hear the real truth of
11 the matter.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Objection. That's argument
13 coming from Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: No, no, no, it's not an argument.
15 I am just telling you that I shall be having a witness
16 -- okay.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: You are announcing the
18 calling of a rejoinder witness.
19 MR. FILA: Just one more question. Yes, I
20 say that I will have a witness to discuss this
21 question. That's right. And he is going to explain
22 the question in hand.
23 Q. One last question. Do you feel any personal
24 interest in this particular case? You arrested
25 Mr. Dokmanovic deceitfully?
1 A. Mr. Dokmanovic -- (answer obscured by
3 Q. You made him cross the border, you said that
4 he would be received by Mr. Klein. You lured him
5 across the border. You lured him to cross the border;
6 is that true?
7 A. (Answer obscured by translation).
8 Q. Enticed him?
9 A. -- Across the border. He made the decision
11 Q. But you lured him into thinking that he would
12 be going to a meeting with Mr. Klein?
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, Mr. Fila --
14 MR. FILA: I withdraw the question. Very
16 Q. Do you show, therefore, any personal interest
17 in showing that you have brought the wrong man?
18 A. My personal interest is to present the facts
19 and let the judges decide on the decisions. I have no
20 bias personally.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Curtis. I only asked.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 MR. FILA: No offence meant. My objection
24 about the documents remains, is sustained.
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if Mr. Fila
1 does not want the documents in, we will withdraw them.
2 He was proposing that they be shown to the court. We
3 have no problem with withdrawing them, if he doesn't
4 want them to go in.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, are we talking about
6 both the notes and the typewritten report? Are you
7 objecting to the typewritten report?
8 MR. FILA: I am objecting to the report
9 because it was cut up and I don't know what it says,
10 really. So it's not evidence. And if he could
11 corroborate that these were his notes, then I would
12 accept them. But the report cannot be proof, some kind
13 of internal report, no.
14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, he is -- the
15 witness testified that this is the report that he has
16 prepared, and I think it corroborates his testimony.
17 So, to this that extent, we would offer it into
19 MR. FILA: I apologise, Your Honour. I
20 forgot one particular question. You mentioned
21 something about Vodicka. The Prosecutor didn't ask
22 you, but it remained here in writing, it wasn't crossed
23 out. The name of Vodicka was mentioned. So could you
24 please look at the report and say what you meant, its
25 the last page I think, I think. The Prosecutor didn't
1 ask about this, so I forgot to put a question.
2 Q. What is this about? Did Dokmanovic tell you
3 about this? I mean, sorry, Novakovic, sorry?
4 A. What's in my report Mr. Novakovic told me.
5 I'll read it.
6 Q. Please read it.
7 A. "I am also aware that Slavko used his
8 influence to arrange for a Croatian women called
9 Vodicka to escape from Ilok and cross the border into
11 MR. FILA: (redacted)
14 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone is
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, again, I must
17 raise an objection when Mr. Fila addresses the court
18 and argues his point after he asks questions. This is
19 not the appropriate time to put forth arguments to the
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. This is correct.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: So we have decided to admit
23 document P212 into evidence. The typewritten report by
24 Mr. Curtis, it is admitted into evidence, as well as
25 the other one, the handwritten notes, Prosecutor
1 Exhibit 211.
2 Mr. Williamson, any --
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very brief.
4 Q. Mr. Curtis, at the conclusion of this
5 interview, did you go out to dinner with Mr. Novakovic
6 at his invitation?
7 A. Yes. During the course of the interview,
8 just to clarify this point, I asked Mr. Novakovic if it
9 was possible to see the bridge that crosses between
10 Backa Palanka and Ilok, because, of course, it's coming
11 to our inquiries a lot but not easy to get to. He made
12 a phone call and he said that it would be arranged.
13 In actual fact, we went to a restaurant near
14 to the bridge, but two or three hundred metres away,
15 where he said he invited us for lunch.
16 Q. And during this lunch or dinner, was alcohol
17 consumed at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. This was after the interview had been
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And at that time did Mr. Novakovic, in your
23 estimation, become intoxicated?
24 A. He most certainly did. I would say that he
25 went over the top with the alcohol. And my impression
1 was in a macho way.
2 Q. Is the fact that he became physically sick?
3 A. I am aware that he was, yes.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no more
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, may I just say
7 one thing. My job, as an investigator, and all the
8 investigators here does include giving testimony before
9 the court.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if there is an
12 issue about us reconvening. If the only reason that we
13 are reconvening is for Mr. Fila to present this coat to
14 the court, we have no objection of that being done out
15 of our presence, and then it can be formally admitted
16 in June, when we reconvene.
17 If there are other matters, then, fine, but
18 if that's the only issue that is before the court, we
19 have no objection to that being done outside our
20 presence, and being done outside a formal sitting of
21 the court.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, do you think by
23 4.30 you could come here with the jacket and the
25 MR. FILA: Your Honour, that depends on God
1 and Yugoslav Airlines. If Yugoslav Airlines lands, and
2 if God permits this, then the plane should come. I
3 mean, JAT is the name of our airline, Yugoslav airlines
4 and they say this is an abbreviation for "joke about
5 time," it's spelt J-A-T.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, but in principle,
7 it should land at what --
8 MR. FILA: It should have landed already,
9 now, at 20 past 12. Now it is supposed to have
10 landed. And I am going to bring this for sure -- I'm
11 sorry. And I promise the agendas, and I told them to
12 take the agendas. Mr. Curtis saw these agendas too,
13 when he talked. I mean, this is not part of the
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Two points. First of all, we
16 want to receive this evidence in court, and with the
17 Prosecutor, with both parties present, of course. And
18 we -- since we have a hearing on a different case at
19 3.30, which should be over, but we should be through by
20 4.30, we could reconvene at 4.30, if this is convenient
21 to both parties? Is it fine with you, Mr. Fila, 4.30?
22 MR. FILA: Quite all right. But perhaps we
23 can bring it in at 3.00, so that you wouldn't be
24 bothered to stay later. Because, really, it only takes
25 five minutes. I just hand it over.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's fine, Your Honour,
2 3.00 or 4.30.
3 MR. FILA: 3.00 is perhaps better, we can
4 give it to you at 3.00 and then you can continue at
5 3.30, if it's easier for you.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: I think, for a lot of
7 practical reasons, it would be better to stick to the
8 4.30 suggestion, if you don't mind. 4.30. It will
9 take probably 15 minutes. There are practical
10 problems, otherwise. All right. 4.30. All right. So
11 we'll adjourn now.
12 Sorry. I forgot. I am a bit exhausted,
13 sir. I should ask the parties whether there is any
14 objection to the witness being released.
15 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Curtis, thank you so much
17 for your patience, also for giving evidence in court,
18 and you may now be released. And we adjourn until
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 --- Upon adjourning at 12.48 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 5.22 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. We, of
3 course, regret this delay. It is not our fault. And
4 I'm afraid that we had another case. I am sorry for
5 any inconvenience this may have caused you.
6 Let us start right away. Mr. Fila, have you
7 all the relevant --
8 MR. FILA: This is the agenda that we talked
9 about. It has the 19th. I showed the Prosecution.
10 The 19th of November, the government meeting, the
11 accused, Mr. Dokmanovic, can read out this. Then the
12 next relevant date is the 3rd of December, and the 4th
13 of December onwards.
14 I would like you personally to have a look at
15 this, and would the usher show you the agenda, and
16 Mr. Dokmanovic can read it out and identify it, or
17 anybody who can read it in Serbian.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, Mr. Fila is
19 correct. He did show it to us and we had a chance to
20 look through it.
21 MR. FILA: On the 19th, it says the
22 government meeting in Erdut. If that is relevant for
23 the Court. It says, as I say, that the 19th of
24 November is the government meeting in Erdut -- no, just
25 the government meeting on the 19th of November. It
1 doesn't say where it is, just that it is a government
2 meeting on the 19th of November.
3 The next day, on the 19th, he writes about
4 the meeting, and it says that on the next day, at 12.00
5 in Vukovar, at the VELEPROMET compound is the
6 government meeting.
7 And then the next date is the 3rd of
8 December. I don't know whether that helps you at all.
9 I don't think it does.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
11 MR. FILA: The second thing you asked for,
12 here it is. The accused is ready to put it on, if you
13 would like to see it on him. Thank you.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we call it -- are you
15 producing this as an exhibit?
16 MR. FILA: Yes. Yes, this could be perhaps
17 D2a Exhibit D2a because it was in the same --
18 THE REGISTRAR: D ...
19 MR. FILA: Your Honours, would you like
20 Mr. Dokmanovic to wear the shirt, the vest, and the
21 jacket? No?
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, might I
23 suggest, in terms of the reference number, I think it
24 was given a number 2a. I believe Exhibit D2 was the
25 videotape, maybe it would be more appropriate to be
1 48a. 48 was the other clothing, so ...
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.
3 MR. FILA: Yes, D48. I beg your pardon.
4 Yes, you're quite right.
5 (Mr. Dokmanovic puts on jacket).
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Dokmanovic,
7 thank you. I wonder whether there are any matters to
8 be discussed. May I simply then again repeat one point
9 I made this morning, I think, namely, that we intend to
10 come to an end of this trial on the 26th of June. So
11 therefore, it is in the best interests of the accused
12 and so therefore I very much urge the -- I would like
13 to urge the Prosecutor to make an effort to compress as
14 much as possible the testimony. Otherwise, we will
15 have to shorten, as I said, the time for the closing
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, one of the
18 things that we have discussed in the interim, between
19 this morning's session and now, and I discussed this
20 with Mr. Niemann when he was on break, is we will try
21 to submit as detailed reports as we can from any
22 experts that we would call, so that if it were
23 necessary to call them, we can perhaps try to limit
24 their questioning to a very short period, and perhaps
25 condense it down even more than we had anticipated.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And, of course,
2 as for the possible visit to Vukovar, we will decide
3 towards the end of that week.
4 But if you can make also an effort -- again,
5 for the sake of saving time -- if you may submit your
6 closing statements in writing. I think Mr. Fila
7 promised to do so.
8 MR. FILA: Yes, quite definitely. But
9 Mr. Niemann asked some time for something, I'm not
10 quite clear on what he wanted, but, yes, whatever you
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we will make a
13 written submission as well, though we would like to, I
14 think, have some oral argument on it.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course, of course.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: And again, it's --
17 MR. FILA: No, that was not it.
18 Mr. Niemann -- I apologise for interrupting,
19 Mr. Williamson -- but as we were discussing these
20 matters, Mr. Niemann said something we should hand
21 something in simultaneously. It was a question of
22 time. And I did not understand what he had in mind,
23 what Mr. Niemann had in mind, what the proposal is.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: It was very clear -- I mean,
25 Mr. Williamson, you made --
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, yes, I think
2 Mr. Niemann's point was, in terms of closing argument,
3 that it should be simultaneously, we should have the
4 same deadline so in effect one argument is not a
5 response to the other argument, because we both get an
6 opportunity for rebuttal and rejoinder, as I
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you think that one day
9 could be sufficient for both parties because this could
10 be Friday and then we could ask you to submit by
11 Thursday afternoon the two closing statements?
12 MR. FILA: Yes, that's all right. That's
13 agreeable. Very well. I think I'll be able to wind up
14 in one day, on Monday, my evidence. We're working all
15 day, so I think that will be enough. So I should like
16 to ask Mr. Williamson to be ready on Tuesday with his
17 evidence, if possible.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's fine. And --
19 MR. FILA: We've cleaned up all those matters
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: We will be submitting the
22 statements on Thursday. That's fine.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: So Thursday by 5.00. If the
24 two statements could be submitted simultaneously, by
25 Thursday, so on Friday you can sum up your arguments
1 and then we may ask questions.
2 All right. We can now adjourn. Again, I
3 apologise for the delay, and we will reconvene on the
4 22nd of June.
5 MR. FILA: At what time, Your Honours? At
6 what time, Your Honours?
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: At what time is the
9 JUDGE CASSESE: At what time? At 9.30, I
10 think, as usual. 9.30. I think this is the usual
12 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
13 5.33 p.m. until 22nd June, 1998, at 9.30 a.m.