1. 1 Thursday, 18th June 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 10.23 a.m.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: I will turn to the Prosecutor

    7 and ask him to continue with the witness.

    8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, the first thing

    9 that I would like to do that I neglected to do at the

    10 end of the day yesterday, is to tender the map which

    11 would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 223 to which we've been

    12 referring.


    14 Examined by Mr. Williamson:

    15 Q. Mr. Dzuro, at the point where we left off

    16 yesterday, we were talking about this trip that you had

    17 gone on to Vukovar in February of this year to

    18 investigate scenes that were depicted in the videotape.

    19 When you were on this visit to Vukovar, did

    20 you take any photographs of locations that you visited?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. At this time, I would like for you to view

    23 the first photograph, which I will mark as Prosecutor's

    24 Exhibit 224, and if you can explain to us what is

    25 depicted in this photograph?

  2. 1 I would ask you, Mr. Dzuro, if you could

    2 display this on the ELMO, please?

    3 Can you explain what is depicted in this

    4 photograph, please?

    5 A. I photographed this area. This is the spot I

    6 depicted on the map as well, which I marked as the

    7 location at 15.42. This is the house with the gable

    8 facing the road, the tree in front of it, the

    9 branches. Also, the electric post, the grass area on

    10 the right side of the road, the shed, and then in the

    11 background here is this tree with the very specific top

    12 (indicated). I will talk about that later.

    13 Q. I would like for you to view the next

    14 photograph which we will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    15 225, and if you can, please identify this photograph?

    16 What is shown in this photograph?

    17 A. This is the same house which I photographed

    18 from the front side, and I took this picture for one

    19 particular reason, is the angle of the roof. You can

    20 see that the angle of the roof is different than the

    21 one on the video. If I can -- can I show the other

    22 photograph, the previous one? I can't remember the

    23 number.

    24 Q. It's 224. Yes, if you can.

    25 A. You can see, if you take the picture from a

  3. 1 different angle towards the building, the shape of the

    2 roof is different. So if you go a little bit further

    3 down south, the angle will be more steep.

    4 The second photograph I took from here

    5 (indicated) looking directly toward -- to facing the

    6 building, so the angle of the roof, see, is not so

    7 steep.

    8 Q. Now I would like for you to look at the next

    9 photograph which we will mark as Prosecutor Exhibit

    10 226. Can you identify this photograph, please?

    11 A. Yes. This is the same house, and again I

    12 took this picture to show to the court the different

    13 angle of the roof if you photographed it from the

    14 different location. Again, you can see the tree in

    15 front of it is very close to the building and then the

    16 boarded window in the upper part of the gable.

    17 Q. I would like for you now to look at the next

    18 photograph which we will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    19 227. Can you explain what is depicted in this

    20 photograph, please?

    21 A. Yes. This is the grass area on the right

    22 side of the road. If you look from that location

    23 towards Vukovar -- if I may use the first photograph

    24 again?

    25 Q. Which was 224. Yes, please.

  4. 1 A. This is the area right here in front of the

    2 shed (indicated). If you look on this photograph and

    3 the still I took from the video, it is obvious there is

    4 something missing. There is a traffic sign in this

    5 area -- there is a traffic sign in this area on the

    6 still which is not on this photograph, so I did an

    7 investigation into this, and I thoroughly walked in

    8 that area around, and I discovered the concrete base

    9 with the metal bar which is the same one which is used

    10 in that area for the traffic signs. So I took a

    11 photograph of that and the exact location where I

    12 discovered that, and this is the photograph.

    13 Q. Now I am going to show you the next

    14 photograph which we will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    15 228, and if you can indicate what is depicted in this

    16 photograph, please?

    17 A. So what I did afterwards, I -- I wanted to

    18 reconstruct the scene. For that reason, first I took

    19 the picture of the scene the way it looked, which is

    20 the photograph -- the first one I presented.

    21 Q. Which was marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 224;

    22 correct?

    23 A. That's correct. And then I went to the

    24 UNTAES and asked for their assistance because I needed

    25 to obtain a traffic sign, this traffic sign which shows

  5. 1 to the drivers that you are driving on the main road.

    2 The UNTAES, they weren't able to provide me with that,

    3 but they were happy to assist, so we went to the local

    4 police and asked them to provide a traffic sign, but

    5 unfortunately, the conditions in Vukovar the way they

    6 are, they also were not able to assist us with the

    7 traffic sign. So I asked for the police, traffic

    8 police car, the patrol car, and we went together back

    9 to the scene.

    10 What I didn't want to do, I didn't want to

    11 remove the traffic sign from the other direction

    12 because it could cause some traffic problems, so I

    13 asked the Croatian police for their assistance. You

    14 can see the car parked here (indicated). What we did,

    15 we removed the traffic sign from that side of the road,

    16 put it on the metal bar, and then just placed it where

    17 it used to be, or it appears it used to be, and this

    18 photograph showed the scene now with the electric post,

    19 the traffic sign, the white shed, the tree in the

    20 background, the building with the gable facing the

    21 road, and then the tree with the branches in front of

    22 that.

    23 If you allow me in my next -- when I will

    24 testify about the videotapes, I will explain the reason

    25 why the traffic sign is actually here. I wanted to

  6. 1 have the traffic sign here. There is a particular

    2 reason for that. But if I can explain a little bit

    3 later?

    4 Q. Perhaps that would make more sense, yes.

    5 Now, as I understand it, just to make this

    6 absolutely clear, this photograph is identical to the

    7 one that has been presented as Prosecutor's Exhibit 224

    8 except for the fact that you have attempted to

    9 reconstruct what was seen in the videotape by putting

    10 the sign back in place; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, that's correct. I wouldn't call it

    12 identical because I'm not sure I managed to take the

    13 same angle because it is very difficult to find the

    14 same angle if you do two photographs. But this is the

    15 photograph of the same location. The only difference

    16 is that on this one, I put the traffic sign back.

    17 Q. Very well. At this time, I would also like

    18 to show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 222 which was the

    19 video still, I think which depicts somewhat the same

    20 view, and if you can indicate, showing that, the

    21 similarities between that and what we see in

    22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 228?

    23 A. Are we able to display both photographs at

    24 the same time, or it wouldn't fit?

    25 Q. I don't know that it is possible. We may

  7. 1 lose so much detail in doing that that it's going to be

    2 difficult to see. Maybe if you try to cover up the

    3 buses, put those underneath, because I don't think

    4 those are crucial to what we're talking about.

    5 All right. Again, if you can just go through

    6 this and point out the items that you found to be

    7 similar between the video still and the photograph that

    8 you have taken in this reconstruction where you've

    9 added the sign?

    10 A. Electric post here and here, the white shed

    11 here and here, so the traffic sign here and here

    12 (indicated).

    13 Q. Do you also see the tree that you talked

    14 about earlier?

    15 A. The top of the tree here and then it's here

    16 (indicated).

    17 Q. At this time, I would tender these

    18 photographs as Prosecutor's Exhibits 224 through 228.

    19 A. May I add something to this, please?

    20 Q. Yes.

    21 A. I would like -- I mean, if you could focus on

    22 this area, on the right side of the road; it is very

    23 important for my further testimony as far as Negoslavci

    24 is concerned.

    25 Q. What is the importance or the significance of

  8. 1 this area that you've just pointed out?

    2 A. You will see, this is flat land, there is no

    3 ditch. There are no reinforced bridges anywhere in

    4 this area. It's just grass.

    5 Q. Again, at this time, I would tender these

    6 exhibits as 224 through 228?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, any objection?

    8 MR. FILA: No.


    10 Q. At some point in time, Mr. Dzuro, did you

    11 also take a set of measurements between various

    12 locations that you have discussed during this trial?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. Did you record these in your report?

    15 A. That's correct.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, if Your

    17 Honours please, if Mr. Dzuro could refer to his

    18 report?

    19 Q. I would like for you to go through these

    20 various measurements with the court and discuss the

    21 travel times between the locations you have indicated.

    22 A. Your Honours, can I use the map as well,

    23 please?

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.


  9. 1 Q. The map is Prosecutor's Exhibit 223.

    2 Mr. Dzuro, do you have a copy of your report at hand?

    3 A. Yes, I do.

    4 Q. Very well. If you could proceed and just,

    5 perhaps pointing out on the map, explain to the court

    6 the measurements that you took?

    7 A. The first measurement I made was in between

    8 the JNA barracks in Vukovar and the VELEPROMET

    9 facility, which I marked also on the map, the JNA

    10 barracks. This is the facilities here. There are

    11 basically two entrances, one from this side and one

    12 from this side (indicated).

    13 Q. The one that you've pointed out which you're

    14 saying is on this side where the pointer is now, based

    15 on the knowledge you have, is that the location where

    16 the buses had entered to the barracks on the 20th of

    17 November when the men were taken from the hospital?

    18 A. Yes, that's correct. So I measured the

    19 distance from the JNA barracks to VELEPROMET, and it's

    20 425 metres, and if you drive a vehicle at a speed of 50

    21 kilometres per hour, you need about 30 seconds to get

    22 from one location to the other location.

    23 Q. Mr. Dzuro, if I could ask you, maybe you

    24 could slide this over just a little bit so we can see

    25 the -- yes, I think that's perhaps a little better --

  10. 1 where you can see the locations you have indicated.

    2 What was the next measurement that you took?

    3 A. Next measurement was in between the

    4 VELEPROMET facility and the location depicted at 15.36

    5 (indicated).

    6 Q. What was the distance there?

    7 A. The distance is about 1.080 metres. You need

    8 approximately 80 seconds to drive in a car at a speed

    9 of 50 kilometres per hour.

    10 Q. What next after that?

    11 A. The next measurement is in between VELEPROMET

    12 and the location depicted at 15.42. This is VELEPROMET

    13 again and this is the location at 15.42, and the

    14 distance is 715 metres. You need about 50 seconds at

    15 the same speed.

    16 Q. Additional measurements that you made?

    17 A. Yes. I continued measuring from VELEPROMET

    18 to the hangar at Ovcara. I will point on the map the

    19 route -- I'm not sure --

    20 Q. You can perhaps slide the map up a little bit

    21 or maybe the focus can come out a little bit, include

    22 more of it? I think that's fine.

    23 A. So I will show you again on the map. This is

    24 VELEPROMET. Here I go to the turn where the road --

    25 there's an intersection between the field road towards

  11. 1 Ovcara and the main Vukovar-Negoslavci road. You drive

    2 in the field (indicated). The distance between

    3 VELEPROMET and the hangar at Ovcara is 7.800 metres.

    4 You need approximately 9 minutes to drive at a speed of

    5 50 kilometres per hour.

    6 Q. Based on your work in this investigation and

    7 having talked to survivors from the incident at Ovcara,

    8 is this the same route that they were taken on on the

    9 20th of November, to your knowledge?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct.

    11 Q. Did you make any other measurements?

    12 A. Yes, I did. I measured the distance between

    13 the location depicted at 15.36 and turned towards

    14 Ovcara from the Vukovar-Negoslavci road, which is from

    15 here to here, and it's 2.100 metres (indicated). You

    16 need approximately 2 minutes of driving again at the

    17 same speed, 50 kilometres per hour.

    18 Q. Was that the last measurement that you took?

    19 A. No. I made more measurements. The next one

    20 was the location depicted at 15.36 and the hangar at

    21 Ovcara. Using the same road like previously, up to the

    22 turn point, through the fields, this way, and to Ovcara

    23 (indicated). The distance is 7.000 metres, needing

    24 approximately 8 minutes of driving.

    25 The next measurement I did is in between the

  12. 1 location depicted at 15.36 and Negoslavci. I have to

    2 move the map again a little bit.

    3 Q. That's fine, I think, if you can --

    4 A. So it's from here, and I measured the

    5 distance to the main crossing, it's in the middle of

    6 the village, there's a main crossing, this distance

    7 (indicated), and it's 5.000 metres, and you need

    8 approximately 6 minutes to drive at a speed of 50

    9 kilometres per hour.

    10 I continued further, in between this

    11 location, 15.36 and Orolik, which, unfortunately, is

    12 not on this map, but it goes further down past

    13 Negoslavci, continues on this road, and the distance is

    14 about 11.000 metres. You need 13 minutes to travel at

    15 the same speed.

    16 Q. So it's 13 minutes from the location depicted

    17 at 15.36 to Orolik going at 50 kilometres an hour?

    18 A. Yes, that's correct.

    19 Q. And then did you continue on past Orolik?

    20 A. Yes, I did. I finished my measurements at

    21 Sidski Banovci, so I measured the distance from 15.36,

    22 from the location depicted at 15.36, to Sidski

    23 Banovci. It's 18.300 metres. You need approximately

    24 22 minutes to drive at a speed of 50 kilometres per

    25 hour.

  13. 1 Q. Now, when you were in Vukovar doing this

    2 investigation, did you also make several videotapes

    3 which showed locations you believe that might be

    4 relevant to this investigation?

    5 A. Yes, I did.

    6 Q. In one of these videotapes, did you film the

    7 route from VELEPROMET to the Ovcara hangar?

    8 A. Yes, I did.

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would ask

    10 that this videotape be shown.

    11 Your Honours, the tape takes, all together,

    12 approximately 12 minutes, so I'm not sure if you wish

    13 to view it in its entirety. We can perhaps fast

    14 forward through some of it or scan through it. It's up

    15 to you. But we will ...

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, in its entirety, please.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. We will mark

    18 this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 229, and if this can now

    19 be shown?

    20 Q. Mr. Dzuro, perhaps you can just explain what

    21 we're seeing as we view the videotape?

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 A. I start filming at VELEPROMET, which is on

    24 the right side of the road.

    25 Q. At this point in time, which direction are

  14. 1 you travelling?

    2 A. I'm travelling south from the centre of

    3 Vukovar and the road from the centre of Vukovar towards

    4 Negoslavci.

    5 (Videotape played)

    6 A. Freeze it here now, please.

    7 Q. If you can stop there?

    8 A. A little bit backwards, please. A bit more.

    9 Yes, that's okay.

    10 Q. You can't use the pointer --

    11 A. Unfortunately. On the left side of this

    12 road, you can see the shed which I photographed, and

    13 it's shown on some of these photographs which I

    14 presented in my previous testimony, and on the right

    15 side -- this is the traffic sign I had to remove to be

    16 able to put it on the other side of the road, and I was

    17 also talking about -- I tried to explain what was the

    18 legitimacy of this traffic sign to be there. You can

    19 see just behind this traffic sign on the right side,

    20 there is an intersection, so the traffic sign was on

    21 this side of the road going from Vukovar to Negoslavci,

    22 and obviously there should be a traffic sign on the

    23 other side of the road where I discovered the base, the

    24 concrete base, and the bar which was lying on the

    25 grass. Somebody removed it for some reason. But

  15. 1 there's a legitimate reason for this traffic sign to be

    2 there.

    3 Q. What is the reason for the sign to be there?

    4 A. It shows that when the car is driving on the

    5 road from Vukovar to Negoslavci or from the Negoslavci

    6 to Vukovar, it's on the main road. It means that the

    7 car coming from the side road has to give way.

    8 Q. If the tape can continue now, please?

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 A. Can you freeze it, please, here? So the

    11 building which is on the right side now --

    12 unfortunately, the sun was against the camera so it's

    13 not so good to see -- but the building on the right

    14 side is the building which I identified to be depicted

    15 at 15.42, but there will be a better video from the

    16 other side later on.

    17 You can continue the tape, please.

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 A. Would you freeze it, please? A little bit

    20 back? No, that's too much. Forward. Stop it. Stop,

    21 please.

    22 Now, on the right side of the road, you can

    23 see the tree, and behind the tree is the traffic sign

    24 which shows the end of Vukovar. This is the same which

    25 is depicted on the Defence video at the location 15.36.

  16. 1 Q. If you can play the video again now, please?

    2 A. Yes, please.

    3 (Videotape played)

    4 A. You can see that there are no buildings on

    5 the right side or the left side of the road; there are

    6 just fields.

    7 Would you freeze it now, please? Okay, on

    8 the right side, on the left side of the road, you can

    9 see there's a small intersection. This is the road

    10 that leads towards Ovcara, and I would like if I can

    11 show it on the map as well.

    12 Q. That's fine. If we can switch to the ELMO,

    13 please, briefly? Perhaps, if you can, just indicate

    14 where we've travelled all the way through very

    15 quickly.

    16 A. (Indicating). I start filming at the

    17 VELEPROMET, continue south. First we passed the

    18 location at 15.42, then the tree, the location at

    19 15.36, and we travel on this road. And now we are

    20 here, this turn.

    21 Q. Okay. And if we can, again, start the video,

    22 please.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 A. Here I turn left towards Ovcara. It's very

    25 difficult to film it because the quality of the road is

  17. 1 very bad.

    2 Q. Has the condition of this road deteriorated

    3 since you have been travelling to Vukovar?

    4 A. Yes. As I said yesterday, for the first

    5 time, it was August 1996 when we did the exhumation,

    6 and it's clear to see that the quality of the road

    7 is -- there's no maintenance and the quality of the

    8 road is worse than it was in 1996.

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 A. You can see again here there are no buildings

    11 on the right or the left side of the road, fields on

    12 the right and left. So if you can freeze it now,

    13 please, for a second, and show the map, please? Just

    14 for the orientation, I was driving on this road from

    15 the turn, and now I'm here, turning right on this

    16 road. I'm just in the turn here.

    17 Could you continue, please?

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 A. So, again, if you can freeze it here, please,

    20 and show the map? I was driving on this field road,

    21 and now I'm here in this turn. I'll make a left turn

    22 now towards the village of Ovcara.

    23 Can you continue, please?

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 Q. Mr. Dzuro, looking at this videotape, this

  18. 1 appears to be a very isolated location; is that fair to

    2 say?

    3 A. Yes, that's correct. I'm entering the

    4 village of Ovcara. The village is just several

    5 buildings. It's not a really big village. They have

    6 just a farm and a few buildings.

    7 Can you freeze it, please, here? So I

    8 arrived on this T-junction here, and I will make a

    9 right turn towards the hangar.

    10 Can you continue, please?

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 A. So the building on the right side, this is

    13 the hangar. Can you stop the tape, please?

    14 Q. Now, did you make a second videotape starting

    15 back on the road from Vukovar to Negoslavci at the

    16 turnoff to Ovcara?

    17 A. That's correct.

    18 Q. And did you return to the Vukovar-Negoslavci

    19 road on the same route that we have just seen in this

    20 video clip?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. If we could now view the next video, which we

    23 will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 230? What does this

    24 video record, if you can just describe it briefly at

    25 the beginning, what we will be seeing?

  19. 1 A. Can I see the map, please? I returned from

    2 Ovcara on the same route, this way, and then the video

    3 starts here. I turn left and I drove on this main

    4 road, the Vukovar-Negoslavci road, towards Negoslavci,

    5 drove through to the very end. There, I turned the

    6 vehicle and drove back on this road, back towards --

    7 excuse me, back towards Vukovar.

    8 Q. At this time, if we can show this videotape,

    9 please? Again, we will mark this as Prosecutor's

    10 Exhibit 230.

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 A. Now, I'm back on the road. This is the

    13 Vukovar-Negoslavci road, continuation from the turn

    14 which I depicted on the map. Now, you see the first

    15 building in Negoslavci. It's actually the first

    16 building on the road from Vukovar to Negoslavci.

    17 There's nothing in between that.

    18 Q. If you can freeze it for just a moment here,

    19 perhaps go back a little bit.

    20 Now, you've testified early there were

    21 ditches on the side of the road with reinforced

    22 bridges. Is that visible in this part of the video as

    23 we enter into Negoslavci? Perhaps if you go forward a

    24 little more I think it's clearer.

    25 (Videotape played)

  20. 1 A. Yes, you can see it on the right side of the

    2 road now. I will show it to you when I travel back

    3 from Negoslavci to Vukovar on this -- from this point

    4 on the left side, but it's much better seen from the

    5 other direction.

    6 Q. Very well. Continue, please.

    7 (Videotape played)

    8 A. From this point on, you start to have this

    9 mixed evergreen trees and leafed trees. And the

    10 further you continue in the village, more of these

    11 evergreen trees you have on both sides of the road.

    12 Freeze it now, please. Go back, please.

    13 Yes, stop here.

    14 Just on the left side behind these trees,

    15 it's not really visible, but there's a church. And I

    16 would just like for your orientation on the map, if you

    17 can display the map, please? This is the red spot on

    18 the map. There's an intersection, the main

    19 intersection in Negoslavci, and this is the church, the

    20 red dot.

    21 Continue the tape, please.

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 A. From this point further south of Negoslavci,

    24 there are almost only evergreen trees on both sides of

    25 the road, which are not only one line, but there are

  21. 1 two or three lines planted in the grass area, the grass

    2 area.

    3 Can you freeze it now, please, here and show

    4 the map?

    5 This is the end of the village of

    6 Negoslavci. Here I made a turn and travelled back

    7 towards Vukovar.

    8 Can you continue the tape, please?

    9 Q. At that point, we're looking down the road in

    10 the direction of Orolik; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, that's correct.

    12 Q. And now you've turned around and you're now

    13 headed north back toward Vukovar; correct?

    14 A. Yes, that's correct. The reason I made this

    15 filming from the other direction is that this is the

    16 same direction that the cameraman filmed the location

    17 at 15.42. So you get the same view as the cameraman

    18 had on the Defence video.

    19 Q. Just to make that absolutely clear,

    20 Mr. Dzuro, what you're saying is that when the

    21 cameraman filmed, he was facing north; correct?

    22 A. Yes, that's correct.

    23 Q. And you are now travelling in a northerly

    24 direction, correct, and filming in that same way?

    25 A. Yes, that's correct. Could you freeze it,

  22. 1 please, here? This is the same spot as my intersection

    2 in the village, the one I depicted, showed you on the

    3 map travelling south.

    4 Can you continue, please?

    5 Q. And, at this point, the church would now be

    6 on the right-hand side; correct?

    7 A. Yes, that's correct. Still you can see on

    8 both sides of the road the evergreen trees which are

    9 not depicted on this 15.42 recording of the Defence

    10 videotape.

    11 Can you freeze it now, please? If you could

    12 go a little bit backwards, a little bit more, okay.

    13 So this is the end of Negoslavci, actually,

    14 the northern part of Negoslavci. And there's the one

    15 scene where you have this electric post on the right

    16 side of the road, but you can see the trees are much

    17 closer to the road. The buildings are much further

    18 from the road. In particular, you can very clearly see

    19 the reinforced bridges over the ditch which is not on

    20 the video depicted at 15.42.

    21 Can you continue, please? If you just focus

    22 your attention to the right side of the road, because

    23 this is the one you can see on the Defence video.

    24 Q. What do you mean it's the one you can see on

    25 the Defence video?

  23. 1 A. Because the other side is covered by the

    2 buses, so you can see just the grass on the right side

    3 of the road.

    4 Q. So in the Defence video, you see only the

    5 right side of the road; correct?

    6 A. Yes, that's correct. You can see there's

    7 just grass. It's flat land. Here you have a very

    8 distinctive ditch and reinforced bridges towards the

    9 driveways.

    10 (Videotape played)

    11 A. Will you freeze it, please, here? You can

    12 see the power lines crossing the road. If you can show

    13 the map, please, this is just for orientation on the

    14 map. At this moment, I'm here. You can see these are

    15 the power lines crossing the road.

    16 Can you continue, please?

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 A. Can you freeze it here, please? Just a

    19 little bit back or forward, okay, that's fine. So this

    20 is the tree and the traffic sign. Now it's on the left

    21 side of the road, which is depicted at 15.36 on the

    22 Defence video.

    23 Can you continue, please?

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 A. Now I'm approaching the car, the building,

  24. 1 which is on the left side of the road, which is the

    2 building, I believe, that's depicted at 15.42. Would

    3 you freeze it, please, here? So you got this telegraph

    4 or electric post on the right side with the white shed

    5 building, again, on the right side. The building on

    6 the left side. The gable facing the road with the

    7 trees directly in front of it, you can see it's very

    8 close to the road. In Negoslavci, the buildings are

    9 much further.

    10 And then on the left side of the road, a

    11 little bit further down, you can see this tree, the

    12 top, which is very specific. You will see it better if

    13 you go further. Can you play the tape, please?

    14 (Videotape played)

    15 Q. I think if you can freeze it there, perhaps.

    16 A. Yes, there, a little bit back. That's fine,

    17 yes. You can clearly see the top of the tree.

    18 Q. Very well. Now, did you also take two other

    19 additional very brief segments of video which show the

    20 locations at 15.36 and 15.42?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. At this time, if we could show the brief

    23 segment from 15.36, which we'll mark as Prosecutor's

    24 Exhibit 231. Can you explain what you're doing in

    25 these video segments?

  25. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 A. Can you freeze it, please, here? Freeze it.

    3 You can see the traffic sign showing the end of

    4 Vukovar. And then as the camera goes to the right, you

    5 can see the tree which is depicted at 15.36 on the

    6 right side of the road. Now, I'm looking from the

    7 camera from the direction of Vukovar south towards

    8 Negoslavci. Can you play it, please?

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 A. Yes, this is the tree I'm talking about.

    11 Q. Is this the tree that, in the video at 15.36,

    12 appears to have a hole in it?

    13 A. Freeze the video, please. Yes, that's

    14 correct. Can you go back a little bit, please? Yes,

    15 this is the last building of Vukovar on the road from

    16 Vukovar to Negoslavci.

    17 Q. And, at this point, you're looking north, is

    18 that correct, back towards the centre of Vukovar?

    19 A. Yes, that's correct.

    20 Can you continue the video, please?

    21 (Videotape played)

    22 A. Could you freeze it, please? So now I'm

    23 standing almost in front of the building which I

    24 believe is depicted at 15.42 looking south again

    25 towards Negoslavci.

  26. 1 Continue the tape, please.

    2 (Videotape played)

    3 A. So this is the building, the gable facing,

    4 the road, and the tree in front of it.

    5 (Videotape played)

    6 A. So would you freeze it now, please? And

    7 again, this is the road which is leading toward the

    8 centre of Vukovar with an electric post on the right

    9 side, and now again, because it is much clearer on this

    10 video, you can see that there is flat land, flat grass,

    11 on the right side of the road; and in Negoslavci, there

    12 is a very distinctive ditch with reinforced bridges in

    13 the driveways.

    14 Can you continue the tape, please?

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 A. If you can again freeze it? Yes. So we can

    17 see now from the better focus the electric post on the

    18 right side, the building, the shed on the right side of

    19 the road, the flat land on the right side, and this

    20 tree on the left side in the distance with the specific

    21 top.

    22 Continue the tape, please?

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 A. Again -- that's okay.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would mark both of these

  27. 1 brief segments as one exhibit, that will be

    2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 231, and I would tender these

    3 three videotape segments: 229, the route from

    4 VELEPROMET to Ovcara; 230, the route from the turnoff

    5 to Ovcara to Negoslavci and back to Vukovar; and 231,

    6 the brief segment at the locations that Mr. Dzuro

    7 identified as being shown at 15.36 and 15.42 on the

    8 Defence video.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? Thank you.


    11 Q. In viewing these videotapes, Mr. Dzuro, the

    12 times to go between the various locations are not

    13 identical to the travel times that you talked about a

    14 few moments ago when you went through your measurements

    15 to the court. Why is that?

    16 A. Yes, you're right, the time is not the same.

    17 But for the purpose of making the video, I really had

    18 to drive very slow. You can see even with the slow

    19 driving, the quality of the video is not what I want it

    20 to be, but you just need more time to travel at a very

    21 slow speed; and the measurements I did for my report,

    22 there I was driving about 50 kilometres an hour. It

    23 was much, much faster than the one I did when I filmed

    24 the video.

    25 Q. Now, subsequent to this trip, did you have an

  28. 1 opportunity to return to the Vukovar area with Mr. Paul

    2 Tabbush, I believe in May of this year?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. What was the purpose of Mr. Tabbush's visit?

    5 A. There were a number of trees and, of course,

    6 I'm not an expert on trees, so Mr. Tabbush was asked to

    7 go to Vukovar and identify these trees.

    8 Q. Did Mr. Tabbush have an opportunity to visit

    9 the entire area between Vukovar, Negoslavci, and

    10 Orolik?

    11 A. Yes, that's right. Mr. Tabbush had a chance

    12 to go anywhere he wanted in Vukovar, and I drove him to

    13 Orolik, to Negoslavci, and to Sidski Banovci, to show

    14 him the whole route.

    15 Q. To your knowledge, did he recognise any trees

    16 that were depicted on the videotape during the course

    17 of his visit?

    18 A. Yes, he did.

    19 Q. Were you present when Mr. Tabbush examined

    20 these trees in detail?

    21 A. Yes, I was.

    22 Q. Are you aware if Mr. Tabbush used any of the

    23 photographs or video stills that you took to assist him

    24 in his identification of the trees?

    25 A. Yes, he did. The reason for that was that in

  29. 1 May, there were already leaves on the trees, so he took

    2 some photographs but they were not the same like during

    3 the wintertime, so he had to use my photographs, and I

    4 offered him all the video stills I made from the video,

    5 and then he chose the ones that were needed for his

    6 expertise.

    7 Q. I'm going to show you at this time what I'm

    8 going to mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 232 and ask if

    9 you can identify this, please?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson, may I ask you

    11 whether you have many more questions?

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think we can finish in

    13 five minutes, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Then we will have a break

    15 before cross-examination. Thank you.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: We do have one other brief

    17 video segment. I think that's going to take the

    18 longest part of the time.

    19 Q. Can you identify this photograph now which is

    20 being displayed on the ELMO?

    21 A. Yes. This is a still I took from my video

    22 recording. This is the location which matches the

    23 location depicted at 15.36 on the Defence videotape, in

    24 particular the tree with the distinctive hole on the

    25 top part and then the traffic sign which is right

  30. 1 behind that tree on the right side of the road.

    2 Q. In the Defence video, is that traffic sign

    3 visible?

    4 A. No, the traffic sign itself is not visible,

    5 it is not there, but you can clearly see these white

    6 posts which I used to hold the traffic sign.

    7 Q. In the Defence video, there are two posts

    8 that are located at that spot; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, that's correct. We can view this, if

    10 it's important for the court. We can match these two

    11 photographs.

    12 Q. That's all right. I think it's relatively

    13 clear.

    14 I would like for you now to view the next

    15 photograph which I'll mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 233,

    16 and if you can please identify what this is?

    17 A. Again, this is the same area. You can better

    18 see here the traffic sign itself and then, in the

    19 distance, the electric posts. These branches are from

    20 the tree which I showed on the previous photograph.

    21 This is the road from Vukovar towards Negoslavci and to

    22 Vukovar.

    23 Q. And we're looking south towards Negoslavci at

    24 this point; is that correct?

    25 A. Yes, that's correct.

  31. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would tender these as

    2 Prosecutor's Exhibits 232 and 233.

    3 Q. Now, Mr. Dzuro, at the conclusion of the last

    4 session of court in May, did you obtain the videotape

    5 marked as Defence Exhibit 2 from Registry Officer

    6 Roeland Bos?

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 Q. What was the purpose of you obtaining this

    9 videotape?

    10 A. I took the videotape to the FBI laboratories

    11 in Quantico, Virginia, in the United States of America,

    12 for their expertise.

    13 Q. Are you aware if any analysis was done on the

    14 videotape at the FBI laboratory?

    15 A. Yes. I handed over the tape to Mr. Herold,

    16 Noel Herold, excuse me, Noel Herold, he is the video

    17 expert of the FBI. He works at the Quantico

    18 laboratories in Virginia, and he did an analysis of the

    19 tape.

    20 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Herold prepare a

    21 report in which he indicated his findings?

    22 A. Yes, he did.

    23 Q. Are you aware of any video excerpts which

    24 were made at the FBI laboratory?

    25 A. Yes, I am.

  32. 1 Q. What was done at the FBI laboratory?

    2 A. I asked Mr. Herold to record the last -- this

    3 segment depicted at 15.42 in very slow motion because

    4 it's very difficult to take the stills of the video and

    5 to keep the same quality, so I asked him to record this

    6 segment, 15.42, in very slow motion.

    7 Q. Is this then played at normal speed, though?

    8 Perhaps that's not a very good question. But when it

    9 is played at normal speed, does it appear to be in slow

    10 motion?

    11 A. That is correct.

    12 Q. At this time, I would ask that this video be

    13 shown, and this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 234.

    14 MR. FILA: I have no objection whatsoever. I

    15 told Mr. Dzuro that as well. But could I have a copy

    16 of that tape, please?

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Certainly, a copy can be

    18 provided.

    19 (Videotape played)

    20 A. I'm sorry. I don't know whether you can view

    21 it, but I don't have anything on my monitor.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: It's already gone through.

    23 A. Okay. So here you can see the building with

    24 the gable facing the road.

    25 (Videotape played)

  33. 1 A. The segment, original speed takes about 20

    2 seconds, so we had to really slow -- slow it down.

    3 (Videotape played)

    4 A. Can you freeze it, please? This is the point

    5 when I took the still off of the video. You saw when

    6 the buses are coming, the camera goes out of focus and

    7 then focus and goes out of focus. It is very

    8 difficult, when you're taking stills of that, to catch

    9 exactly the point when the camera focuses.

    10 So you can see again the flat land, the flat

    11 grass on the right side of the road, the traffic sign,

    12 the electric pole, and then above the third bus in the

    13 row, in the corner of the bus on the top, you can see

    14 the branches of the tree.

    15 Continue the tape, please?

    16 (Videotape played)

    17 A. Stop it, please.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, at this time, I

    19 would tender that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 234.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Fila. I

    22 would tender that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 234, and

    23 during the course of the lunch break, we will make a

    24 copy of it for Mr. Fila and provide it to him

    25 thereafter.

  34. 1 I have no further questions for Mr. Dzuro.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will rise then

    3 for 20 minutes.

    4 --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.

    5 --- Upon commencing at 12.14 p.m.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Before I ask Mr. Fila to

    7 start the cross-examination, let me say that we would

    8 like to stop at 1.00 sharp and, with the permission of

    9 the interpreters, resume at 2.00 until 5.00, because at

    10 5.00 we must leave, at 5.00 sharp; is this agreeable?

    11 Yes.

    12 Mr. Fila?

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

    14 Q. Mr. Dzuro, I have seen that you have worked

    15 at a speed of 50 kilometres per hour. You counted the

    16 time necessary to go from one point to another; is that

    17 true?

    18 A. Yes, that's correct.

    19 Q. I don't want to go back to this question

    20 again. We imply the speed of 50 kilometres per hour

    21 without any take-overs or stops, so continuously, 50

    22 kilometres per hour.

    23 A. In fact, it's difficult to maintain the same

    24 speed, 50 kilometres per hour, but that's the average

    25 speed. Yes, that's correct.

  35. 1 Q. Yes, you understand why I'm asking this. If

    2 you were taking over, that would require an increase of

    3 speed; and then if you stopped, you had to slow down.

    4 In fact, you had a speedometer. That's implied, of

    5 course?

    6 A. Yes, that's correct. As I said, I did not

    7 maintain the speed 50 kilometres an hour, but that's

    8 the average speed.

    9 Q. Yes, I agree. But what I mean, that's

    10 looking at the watch in the car. It's not a stopwatch,

    11 is it?

    12 In your report which I received, you say that

    13 you and Mr. Milner had received orders to identify

    14 places shown in the videotape in Vukovar. Excuse me,

    15 these are my translations. If I make a mistake, you

    16 should still look at your translation.

    17 A. Mr. Fila, it wasn't written in my report. As

    18 far as I remember, what I wrote down was that I was

    19 present during the interview in the prison and then I

    20 was tasked by the Prosecutor to do an examination of

    21 the tape.

    22 Q. Just a moment. It is there. Do you have

    23 this report?

    24 A. Yes, I do.

    25 Q. Here, look here.

  36. 1 A. If I can read it, what I wrote down,

    2 hopefully we have the same document. I wrote down:

    3 "As soon as the OTP obtained a copy of the tape, my

    4 colleagues and I had an opportunity to view it. I was

    5 tasked by the Prosecutor to identify places shown on

    6 the video in Vukovar."

    7 Q. That's what I was asking. That's what I

    8 said.

    9 A. It was I and not Mr. Milner who was tasked to

    10 do that.

    11 Q. I don't see the difference, but it's okay.

    12 Oh, you mean to say that Mr. Milner did not go with

    13 you? That's of no interest to me any way. Dennis

    14 Milner is mentioned somewhere here.

    15 What the Prosecutor asked you about, and what

    16 we have been working with you on yesterday and today,

    17 refers to the quadrant of 15.42, the video still

    18 15.42. What we are discussing is the place found on

    19 the video at the point 15.42 before or after the place

    20 indicated at 15.36. That's what we've been doing these

    21 past two days?

    22 A. Can I ask the technician to put a little bit

    23 more sound in my earphones, because I understand quite

    24 a bit of Serbian, and it's disturbing my -- sorry for

    25 that. Can you ask the question again, Mr. Fila?

  37. 1 Q. Yes, of course. What we have been discussing

    2 and what Mr. Williamson had been asking questions about

    3 yesterday and today is the question of the videotape

    4 between 15.36 and 15.42?

    5 A. Yes, that's correct.

    6 Q. What I want to know before I go on to this

    7 question is whether you, as investigator, when you have

    8 passed that road, is the tape until the point of 15.36

    9 okay in terms of distances, places shown, et cetera?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct.

    11 Q. Can I then conclude, and will you agree with

    12 me if I conclude, that the only controversial thing is

    13 where the place shown at 15.42 is located, before or

    14 after 15.36?

    15 A. The examination that I made, it was not only

    16 about this time, but the whole tape, but the dispute is

    17 whether the 15.36 is in Vukovar -- sorry, 15.42 is in

    18 the south direction from the 15.36 or north direction

    19 from 15.36. It means whether it's towards Vukovar or

    20 towards Negoslavci.

    21 Q. 15.42, yes.

    22 A. Okay.

    23 Q. 15.42 is what I was asking, in fact, not

    24 15.22. The translation seemed to be incorrect. Now

    25 it's okay. So 15.42, investigating, you came to the

  38. 1 conclusion that 15.42 comes before 15.36 in terms of

    2 place, in terms of location. In other words, to cut a

    3 long story short, after 15.36, they made a U-turn and

    4 re-entered Vukovar and came to the place where you found

    5 15.42; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, my evidence is that 15.36 is the

    7 outskirts of Vukovar and 15.42 is north from that

    8 point, that if somebody travelled out of Vukovar, he

    9 had to make 180-degrees turn and go back towards

    10 Vukovar.

    11 Q. If my translation was correct -- so if the

    12 interpretation was correct, the place you identified is

    13 370 metres backwards towards Vukovar?

    14 A. Yes, that's correct.

    15 Q. Good, that's it. In the following part of

    16 your report, you said at one point: "After having

    17 established that the scene from 15.42 was where it was,

    18 I made an effort to examine all the other locations,"

    19 et cetera, "... direction for approximately six

    20 minutes."

    21 On what basis did you determine that the

    22 vehicle kept driving, if the translation was correct?

    23 Will you please look at your original? What did you

    24 mean by this, by this paragraph?

    25 A. The fact is that there's a gap between

  39. 1 15.32 -- 15.36, excuse me, 15.36 and 15.42 of six

    2 minutes.

    3 Q. Yes.

    4 A. So the difference between the location 15.36

    5 and 15.42, so this is the six minutes' difference.

    6 Q. I understood that much. But on which basis

    7 do you maintain that the vehicle continued travelling

    8 and in which direction? Could the cameraman go back on

    9 his own and go on filming?

    10 A. Yes, the cameraman -- I wasn't present in

    11 1991, the day, so the cameraman could do what he wants

    12 to do.

    13 Q. Exactly. But on which basis then do you

    14 maintain that the vehicle drove at that time? It could

    15 have stopped or travelled without the cameraman. The

    16 cameraman could have gone out and away from the

    17 vehicle. In fact, this sentence is the main point of

    18 my interest.

    19 A. I don't know what the translation said, but

    20 my sentence reads: "I made an effort to examine all

    21 other locations which could have been reached if the

    22 vehicle had, in fact, continued travelling straight in

    23 a southerly direction for approximately six minutes."

    24 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I apologise in advance

    25 if it's a matter of translation. So you did not

  40. 1 maintain that the vehicle continued driving?

    2 A. No, my sentence, I'll repeat it. My sentence

    3 reads: "I made an effort to examine all other

    4 locations which could have been reached if the vehicle

    5 had, in fact, continued travelling straight in --"

    6 Q. That's a completely different matter from

    7 what I read here in my copy.

    8 There's another point I wish to straighten

    9 out. You said in your report that on the 5th of May,

    10 '98, you went to Vukovar with Mr. Tabbush. And what

    11 your report is based on happened in February '97; is

    12 that correct?

    13 A. Yes, that's correct.

    14 Q. Why did you wait from February to the 5th of

    15 May to go with Tabbush? What are the reasons for your

    16 waiting for the leaves to grow or whatever? Why did

    17 you wait that long?

    18 A. In my examination of the tape, I established

    19 several things which I highlighted in my report, but it

    20 had no significance until the witnesses for

    21 Mr. Dokmanovic testified. Because only them, they

    22 brought evidence that they continued travelling from

    23 Vukovar, they didn't stop, and they continued driving

    24 to Negoslavci. Before, it would have had no

    25 significance whatsoever.

  41. 1 Q. Sir, you maintain that if witnesses of

    2 Mr. Dokmanovic testified before the 5th of May, you

    3 would have done that; correct?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. You filmed and showed us stills of those

    6 houses. Did you attempt to find out who the owners of

    7 those houses were, of this house?

    8 A. No, I did not, because the appearance of the

    9 house was sufficient for me. I didn't need to talk to

    10 the owner.

    11 Q. No. On what basis did you establish that

    12 this house existed at all in 1991?

    13 A. My evidence is not based only on appearance

    14 of the house, but there are a number of other things

    15 which I tried to show to the court. It's not only the

    16 house itself.

    17 Q. But also the tree, the traffic sign, et

    18 cetera; is that what you mean?

    19 A. Yes, that's correct.

    20 Q. The place where you find this traffic sign,

    21 the broken sign, 227, I didn't understand this point.

    22 Where is it compared to the location where it should

    23 have been, where you later put it yourself? This sign

    24 you found here shown on this picture.

    25 A. Yes, I mean, what I wanted to -- what I

  42. 1 testified about is that, first, I made a photograph of

    2 the scene the way it looked. It means on the distance,

    3 I photographed the place before I touched anything.

    4 Then I walk in the grass on the right side and the left

    5 side of the road in order to try to find whether there

    6 will be some traffic sign or anything which will

    7 indicate that a traffic sign used to be there.

    8 And then on the right side of the road

    9 heading north towards Vukovar, I did find this concrete

    10 base and the post. And this is exactly what I

    11 discovered, that this was the way when I discovered it,

    12 and I photographed that. And then later on, I moved

    13 it.

    14 Q. And how far is that from the other place?

    15 How far is this from the place where you restored the

    16 sign?

    17 A. It's approximately two metres. I mean, I

    18 have more photographs. These photographs on the other

    19 side will show it enough. I took 36 photographs in

    20 this location so...

    21 Q. Mr. Dzuro, I told you, and I repeat, I trust

    22 you. It's enough for you to just answer. You don't

    23 have to prove anything to me. That's the only matter I

    24 wish to clarify because it did not feature in your

    25 report.

  43. 1 Now, I would like you to look at the

    2 photograph that you made, 228 or 224, whichever; it

    3 makes no difference. How far is this post from the

    4 edge of the road, I mean, this post here? In your

    5 photo, it has a wire. And other wires, there is none.

    6 A. I understand what you are saying. I don't

    7 have these photographs here, but I can answer that. I

    8 did not measure that. I told you about the house as

    9 well. It's very difficult to maintain the angle of

    10 everything if you don't know exactly from which area

    11 the cameraman took the pictures.

    12 So what I did, in fact, I walked backwards

    13 from the house, and I tried to take the photograph of

    14 this area which would be similar to the one which is

    15 depicted at 15.42. So measurements on that location

    16 wouldn't tell you anything. It wouldn't tell you

    17 anything, because what you have on the still, you

    18 wouldn't know how far from the road the post is in

    19 1991, which is depicted in 15.42. So the measurement

    20 itself wouldn't give you any indication of anything.

    21 Q. Not the post. I mean the electric post.

    22 A. The electric post, yes. I'm talking about

    23 that, yes.

    24 Q. Yes, then it's okay. So you did not measure

    25 the distance between the electric post and the edge of

  44. 1 the road, if I understood you correctly?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. On the house that you've filmed, we see that

    4 there is a chimney on top; right? Do you remember

    5 that? Is that on your video stills?

    6 A. I've seen the video still a hundred times.

    7 I'm not sure that it's correct. I would be more than

    8 happy to view this still.

    9 Q. We can -- not photographs, on your video. On

    10 your video made by yourself, there is a chimney?

    11 A. Okay, yes, that's correct.

    12 Q. But on the Defence video, there is no

    13 chimney. Do you agree with me, that there is no

    14 chimney to be seen on the Defence video in the exact

    15 place where we find it in your video?

    16 A. You're asking about the exact place. It's

    17 very difficult to maintain the exact. I mean, on the

    18 segment which is depicted 15.42, you can see part of

    19 the roof, and on that part of the roof, there is no

    20 chimney.

    21 Q. We are discussing only 15.42. Since you said

    22 that the entire tape until 15.36 is consistent, there

    23 is no need to discuss that bit.

    24 So two things matter in this story, that on

    25 the Defence video, at this point, there is no chimney;

  45. 1 and on your video, there is a chimney clearly seen. If

    2 you wish to play your video at the point of 15.42, we

    3 can do that.

    4 What is the distance of the electric post on

    5 your video still, and let's see what distances are on

    6 our video?

    7 A. Your Honours, I didn't have a chance to

    8 answer all those questions which I was asked. I mean,

    9 if I can comment back on this roof. Okay, I'm sorry,

    10 the roof on the Defence video, there is just a part of

    11 the roof which is displayed on this video. And on my

    12 video, you can see the whole roof.

    13 Q. Yes, but the place where the chimney is

    14 located is somewhere halfway on the roof. If we can

    15 play again Exhibit 234, the FBI video. So we will see

    16 whether there is the entire roof or not, I mean,

    17 whether there's a chimney, or maybe I'm just missing

    18 it, and how far the electric post is from the road.

    19 While we are waiting, just another question:

    20 On your video still 228 where you restored the sign, we

    21 see the road ahead of the traffic sign. Is there any

    22 road before the sign? You see this sign here. Ahead

    23 of it, there is the road, but the sign should be

    24 before, not ahead. Do you agree with me? Is there any

    25 road ahead of this point, because signs are always

  46. 1 located, everywhere in the world, before the road. Do

    2 you understand what I mean?

    3 A. Yes, I understand. I'd like to answer

    4 because the translation came. If you inspect the map,

    5 if you're travelling towards Vukovar on the south end

    6 of Vukovar where this 15.42 is located, according to

    7 me, there are two side roads going to the left. And

    8 from the direction of Vukovar on them both, you have a

    9 traffic sign; this one I call main road. If you travel

    10 from the south towards Vukovar, you have this -- yes.

    11 Q. I understood. These signs are facing each

    12 other directly; right?

    13 A. No, no, no, because --

    14 Q. No?

    15 A. -- in between you have the road. You have

    16 the road in between those two signs; I understand

    17 that. If you travel from the south to the north, you

    18 have a traffic sign, then you have a road to the left.

    19 And then on the other side of the crossing, you have a

    20 traffic sign which shows the driver coming from the

    21 other direction. So this traffic sign physically could

    22 be -- can be next to each other.

    23 Q. Maybe we don't understand very well. How

    24 many signs are there on each side? There are two side

    25 roads, so there should be two signs. If we look at

  47. 1 this road from Vukovar -- from Negoslavci to Vukovar

    2 and the other way around. You put one sign here. How

    3 many signs are there on each side?

    4 A. There should be two signs of the same kind on

    5 both sides of the road.

    6 Q. There's only one.

    7 A. There's only one. Excuse me. There are two

    8 on the way from Vukovar towards Negoslavci, and there

    9 is none on the way from Negoslavci towards Vukovar, to

    10 be precise.

    11 Q. Yes, but on the existing Defence video, there

    12 is, the sign is there.

    13 A. That is correct.

    14 Q. Let's wait for the tape and clarify this

    15 point.

    16 Can I have the tape, the FBI tape, played?

    17 The tape 234.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    19 (Videotape played)

    20 A. You can see just the -- not even half of

    21 that.

    22 MR. FILA:

    23 Q. There is another tape as well.

    24 On the video still of the Prosecution 220, we

    25 see more than half of the house; in fact, we see

  48. 1 sometimes the entire house.

    2 (Videotape played)

    3 MR. FILA: Would you please play it back a

    4 little? Stop. Just a little more backwards, please?

    5 Play it a little more back, to see the electric post.

    6 Just a little more. Rewind it a little bit more.

    7 You see the electric post -- rewind it a

    8 little more, until we see the electric post. Now.

    9 Still a little further back. Slowly, slowly. Stop

    10 now.

    11 Q. Mr. Dzuro, will you look at this still now?

    12 How far is the electric post from the road, and then on

    13 the ELMO, let us see -- here is Exhibit 224. You can

    14 take it and put it on the ELMO. Prosecution Exhibit

    15 224. Look at it, please, on the ELMO. As you see,

    16 between the electric post on the Defence video still,

    17 if you should put back the tape -- let us see the tape

    18 again -- an entire trailer fits in here, whereas on

    19 your video still, a tyre wouldn't fit. How do you

    20 explain that?

    21 A. I tried to explain it before. It depends

    22 very much on the angle you are taking the picture

    23 from. This is the same thing with the roof. If I

    24 stayed directly in front of the building --

    25 Q. Leave the roof, please. At this moment --

  49. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would

    2 object. He is using the roof to explain his answer,

    3 and I think he should be allowed to finish answering

    4 the question.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think the Prosecutor

    6 is right.

    7 MR. FILA: Okay. That's no problem. I just

    8 wanted to clarify the matter of the electric post and

    9 then go on to the roof.

    10 A. What I tried to explain is that you can't

    11 take the same angle as the cameraman did. First, you

    12 don't have the same lenses on the camera; second, you

    13 can't depict the exact spot on the road, so you always

    14 get a little bit slight -- little bit angles which are

    15 not the same. You just can't match it. You can do it

    16 as much as you can, but you will never match it 100 per

    17 cent. You have to look at other features on the

    18 picture to determine whether the location looks the

    19 same or not, but you just can't say this was two metres

    20 or two and a half metres because it depends on the

    21 distance you are filming that from. It's not just the

    22 fact of the post itself.

    23 Q. The basic question is: On the videotape

    24 which we've seen, we see an entire trailer fitting in

    25 between the electric post and a trailer or a truck or

  50. 1 whatever. On the videotape, point 15.42. You see

    2 where the electric post -- the entire lane, and you've

    3 been filming from -- you filmed from the same position.

    4 A. No, that's not correct. I filmed it from the

    5 same direction but not from the same position. That's

    6 what I tried to explain to the court.

    7 Q. Well, approximately. Can a trailer fit in

    8 here between the electric post and the road, as we saw

    9 on the other shot?

    10 A. Can you turn it?

    11 Q. Well, that's your still, yes.

    12 A. Yes. I believe that if this trailer was

    13 right next to this building here. Just imagine -- I

    14 mean, just look at how far you can go here on this

    15 one. If you park the trailer here, the traffic sign in

    16 front of it, you still have quite a place. If I took

    17 the picture from further down on this road, you will

    18 get much bigger gap between the post and the road. On

    19 my photograph, actually, I took a little bit more what

    20 is behind this post towards --

    21 Q. Mr. Dzuro --

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. -- please, look at the photograph closely.

    24 We will see the road behind the trailer, the white spot

    25 on the road, like a driveway, between the shed and the

  51. 1 electric post. You can see it. Like beside the

    2 driveway. On the still 15.42, we see that behind the

    3 trailer, which means that the trailer was standing

    4 ahead of it, not as you say, because the road is behind

    5 the trailer. Look at this small driveway --

    6 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just for

    7 clarification purposes, the still for 15.42 is marked

    8 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 222. Just to be helpful.


    10 MR. FILA: That's right. That's what we've

    11 been discussing all this time.

    12 Q. On 222, we see the trailer and then the small

    13 driveway behind the electric post here in your

    14 picture. Between the shed and the electric post, there

    15 is whitish sort of driveway or a trail. So the trailer

    16 was between the electric post and the road, and there

    17 is still some leeway left. How do you explain that?

    18 A. My explanation is that I believe -- can you

    19 just leave it there, please? -- I believe that the

    20 trailer in -- I mean, on the video depicted at 15.42 is

    21 behind the traffic sign and in front of the shed. It's

    22 here (indicated).

    23 Q. Behind the traffic sign and in front of the

    24 shed.

    25 A. Yes.

  52. 1 Q. But then you would see the traffic sign. You

    2 can see that the traffic sign is behind the trailer

    3 because you don't see the actual pole of the traffic

    4 sign. So the trailer is in front of it. So please

    5 have a look. Check. You would be able to see the pole

    6 of the traffic sign, yet you only see the trailer. The

    7 trailer is in front of the traffic sign, and between

    8 the traffic sign and the trailer, there is the road.

    9 You can see that here. Please, have a look at the

    10 left-hand side corner. There is a whitish area.

    11 Between the electric post and the trailer, there is the

    12 road.

    13 A. Can I ask for -- to play the slow motion, the

    14 FBI video, please, the same location? Would you mind

    15 that?

    16 Q. Sure. Go ahead. Of course, I have nothing

    17 against that.

    18 A. If you can go just to the very end of that?

    19 I don't have it on my --

    20 Q. Well, we made a still of that particular part

    21 of the video. We stopped it here. You can see very

    22 clearly that the trailer is in front of the sign. It's

    23 perfectly clear.

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 Q. See? The trailer and the sign and then the

  53. 1 shed and then the electric post. Please. Gauge the

    2 distance.

    3 A. Stop it now, please? Yes. I mean, as I

    4 could see it, I saw that the traffic sign was in front

    5 of the trailer, not behind the trailer. Maybe I can

    6 see something different but ...

    7 Q. Well, let's have another look. This is the

    8 first time that I see this particular video in this

    9 form.

    10 A. I can see that the traffic sign, the post of

    11 the traffic sign, is in front of the trailer. This is

    12 the one I can see that. This is my --

    13 Q. I'm not sure. I'm not perfectly sure. I

    14 will check the tape later. It's possible. Well, this

    15 is the first time that I see the tape. I apologise to

    16 the Judges.

    17 Can we see it once again? Let's play it

    18 again.

    19 (Videotape played)

    20 Q. But regardless of all that, be it as it may,

    21 even if you are right, again, if the electric post was

    22 closer -- were closer to the traffic sign and on your

    23 picture, 228, the traffic sign is much further down

    24 from the electric post. Please check. What's the

    25 distance between those two items? How can you fit a

  54. 1 truck between those two locations because the truck

    2 would then be right inside the shed? It would be

    3 hitting the shed. And the shed would not be seen, at

    4 any rate, in that case, if the traffic sign is in front

    5 of it. I can't see that there is enough room for it to

    6 fit here. The way that you photographed this location,

    7 there is not enough space between the sign and the

    8 shed.

    9 A. Mr. Fila, I think this is the problem with

    10 the photographs. This just depends on the angle. I

    11 believe that there is plenty of room between the

    12 electric post, the traffic sign, and the shed. There

    13 is actually a driveway --

    14 Q. Between the shed and the traffic sign,

    15 between the shed and the traffic sign, there is enough

    16 space for a trailer to fit in; is that what you're

    17 saying? If I understood you correctly, that's what

    18 you're saying.

    19 A. I believe that's correct, yes.

    20 Q. All right. And you also claim that this

    21 distance depends on the angle from which the photograph

    22 was taken.

    23 I have another question. Opposite this house

    24 that you're claiming, that's the Prosecutor's Exhibit

    25 228 or 224, are there any buildings here, because you

  55. 1 can't see that from the photographs? So here, where

    2 the traffic sign is, and then from the ditch further

    3 down, in this area that you photographed.

    4 A. Okay. On the right side of the road, there

    5 are buildings, yes, that's correct. On the right side

    6 of the building facing Vukovar. Yes, there are

    7 buildings, yes.

    8 Q. Thank you. Now we will go back to the

    9 chimney and the roof. You saw your photograph,

    10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 218.

    11 I would like photograph 220 to be displayed,

    12 to be shown to the witness.

    13 Can you see the chimney?

    14 A. No, on the top part of the roof, which one is

    15 displayed -- which is depicted on this still, there is

    16 no chimney. I'm not talking about the whole roof, I'm

    17 talking about the part which is depicted on this still.

    18 Q. Which one? Which photograph? This one?

    19 A. I am talking about --

    20 Q. That's the still from the tape, Prosecutor's

    21 Exhibit 220. Yet on your videotape, you can see it.

    22 A. Mr. Fila, I am talking about that part of the

    23 roof --

    24 Q. Yes, that part. That's right. On your tape,

    25 you think that there is no chimney on that part of the

  56. 1 roof, on your tape, the one that you filmed. Maybe we

    2 should look.

    3 A. Please.

    4 Q. So please play the tape. But you know where

    5 it is. I don't know. You have to guide us on which

    6 part of the tape this is depicted, so I would like to

    7 ask you for your assistance, if you could guide the

    8 technical service?

    9 A. Yes, this is the second tape, and if I can

    10 refer to my papers?

    11 Q. Yes. I'm afraid that without your

    12 assistance, I won't be able to find it.

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: I believe it's going to be

    14 in the tape marked as either Prosecutor's Exhibit 230

    15 or 231. I'm not sure if it is the continuously-running

    16 tape or the segment where it was filmed 360 degrees.

    17 If it's in that segment, it would be Prosecutor's

    18 Exhibit 231.

    19 A. Just technically, it's on the first tape --

    20 I'm not talking about numbers of the court. It's on

    21 the first tape.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: It's being --

    23 MR. FILA: Where you can see the stairway.

    24 Just explain -- yeah, that's the one. Stop, stop.

    25 That's it. Stop.

  57. 1 Q. As you can see, it's right in the middle of

    2 the roof. So now let's look at 220, and if you can

    3 superimpose it, and then we can check. If you can

    4 compare it?

    5 A. If you look at the building, there's steps

    6 and the door on the side of the building. I look at

    7 the roof -- actually, I wouldn't agree with you that

    8 the chimney is in the middle of the roof. I think it

    9 is actually on the -- further than half, towards the

    10 back of the building.

    11 But I'm sure that there must be more of this

    12 on my videos. Maybe we can try to find some better

    13 view of that? Because there was a video I made --

    14 actually, I am driving towards Vukovar, and the

    15 building will be seen from a much better angle.

    16 Q. All right. But at any rate, there is a

    17 chimney on that location.

    18 One other thing. The photograph that you

    19 have there, number 220, the windows seem to be a bit

    20 different or maybe, again, there is something wrong

    21 with the film itself. Does it look to you that the

    22 windows on 220 are different from the tape that you

    23 made? That's Prosecutor's Exhibit 225, if you can

    24 compare these two?

    25 A. I don't have them. Can I get these

  58. 1 photographs, please?

    2 Q. You have 220 and 225. These are your

    3 photographs.

    4 A. Mr. Fila, but I don't have them here. The

    5 court has them.

    6 Q. No, I'm just trying to explain, to make it

    7 easier.

    8 A. For my answer, can I use other photographs

    9 which I took that --

    10 Q. 220 you have. Of course, sure, sure. Go

    11 ahead.

    12 A. May I have the photographs back, please?

    13 Q. On this photograph, 225, there is a terrace,

    14 a metal terrace, as far as I can see. There is a

    15 window and there is a terrace. Yet on the videotape,

    16 there is no terrace. How do you explain that? On the

    17 Defence video, if I can see correctly, there is a

    18 terrace here.

    19 A. I think it is quite brave to say that on this

    20 terrace, you can see a terrace or anything on this

    21 video, because the cameraman did not focus it. It's

    22 pretty hazed. What I was talking about in my testimony

    23 was just the upper part of the building, and if you

    24 look on this, which is Exhibit 226, I believe, you are

    25 getting a different angle of the building.

  59. 1 Q. Let me just find it, 226. 226. Which one is

    2 that? All right.

    3 Yes, I can see that the angle is different,

    4 but I see the terrace on this house; yet here you can't

    5 see the terrace. Do you think it's hazy, that that's

    6 part of the problem? I don't see the terrace.

    7 A. Yeah, I believe it's hazed.

    8 Q. Yet on 225, there is a terrace, Your

    9 Honours. 225, you can see it, right here.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: A balcony.

    11 MR. FILA: Balcony, yes, all right. In our

    12 parts, it's the same. A balcony, anyway.

    13 A. Mr. Fila, we did our best to enhance the

    14 quality of this video as much as we could. But

    15 unfortunately, the tape itself doesn't give us any more

    16 option, yes.

    17 But the fact is -- what I wanted to explain,

    18 if you look on this other photograph which is marked

    19 226, you can see the top window is much closer to the

    20 window which is on the bottom. If you go further down,

    21 if you go further down, you get an even sharper angle,

    22 and then the windows will look like they are almost one

    23 under -- the top one, which is under the gable of the

    24 building, to appear to be almost directly under -- the

    25 left one will be on the top -- sorry, my explanation

  60. 1 maybe is not clear. But what I want to say, if you go

    2 further --

    3 Q. No, I understood.

    4 A. -- the angle will be like that. You get it

    5 actually in one line (indicated).

    6 MR. FILA: I think it's time for our recess

    7 and then we can continue, but I think I will have one

    8 or two more questions, maybe a couple more.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will rise now, and we

    10 will reconvene at 2.00 sharp.

    11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.















  61. 1 --- Upon commencing at 2.03 p.m.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    3 MR. FILA: Yes.

    4 Q. On the tape depicting the time of 15.42 with

    5 all the remarks, all the objections to the haziness of

    6 the picture, there seems to be an evergreen tree to one

    7 side of the building, evergreen -- I mean a pine of

    8 some sort. Is there a tree like that or not, or maybe

    9 it's just on that particular picture?

    10 A. Can I see the picture, please?

    11 Q. Yes, sure. We're talking about 222, that's

    12 the Prosecution Exhibit. It would be somewhere here

    13 between the electric post and towards you. You will

    14 see it now. So it can be either an evergreen tree or

    15 there's something wrong with the picture?

    16 A. Yes, that's correct.

    17 Q. Which is correct? There is an evergreen tree

    18 or the picture is bad?

    19 A. I believe both. It could be the evergreen

    20 tree or it could be just a bad image. It's very

    21 difficult --

    22 Q. But do you have something like that on any of

    23 your pictures? That's what I would like to know.

    24 A. Can I have a look?

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would refer you to the one

  62. 1 that's, perhaps, 224, Prosecutor's Exhibit 224.

    2 A. On this picture, there's no evergreen tree on

    3 this one, but the thing is that, as I told you

    4 before --

    5 MR. FILA:

    6 Q. Maybe if you have a closer picture, a

    7 close-up, there should be something.

    8 A. Mr. Fila, can I respond to that? Previously,

    9 I said that I took a number of pictures, and I chose

    10 those ones because I thought it would be more than

    11 enough to explain my testimony. The existence of the

    12 rest of the photographs which are in the album, we

    13 didn't present them before, but they are in existence.

    14 Q. No, no problem. I just asked you if you have

    15 it or not. If you can't remember, it's okay.

    16 I have two more questions. First, a poplar

    17 tree is mentioned. We have another problem with

    18 translation. There's a poplar -- okay, so this is

    19 clear. So there's no difference. They are one in the

    20 same term in English. So what's the distance between

    21 that tree, poplar tree, from the house that you were

    22 talking about? So the distance between the poplar and

    23 the house, 15.42, what's the distance? Did you measure

    24 the distance?

    25 A. Your Honours, can I use my notes, please, for

  63. 1 this?

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    3 MR. FILA:

    4 Q. Mr. Dzuro, use whatever you want, as long as

    5 you give us the correct answer.

    6 A. Yes, the distance in between the poplar tree

    7 and the house depicted at 15.42 is 370 metres, 370

    8 metres in between the poplar tree --

    9 Q. What direction?

    10 A. I mean, the distance, it is still the same,

    11 but the poplar is north. It means towards the centre

    12 of Vukovar.

    13 Q. Towards Vukovar?

    14 A. Yes, that's correct.

    15 Q. I apologise. Just a moment. Would you agree

    16 with me that this poplar is located halfway between

    17 15.36 and 15.42? So it's 370 metres both ways from

    18 15.42?

    19 A. From the house --

    20 Q. The house being built and to -- is the same

    21 distance from the poplar and from 15.36. That's what

    22 I'm asking.

    23 A. Let me just count it. The distance between

    24 the house depicted in 15.42 and the poplar is 370

    25 metres. And the distance between the house and the

  64. 1 location depicted at 15.32, it's 263 metres.

    2 Q. 15.32? You mean 15.36.

    3 A. I'm sorry, 15.36. I'm apologising for the

    4 mistake.

    5 Q. The tree, is that the tree that Professor

    6 Tabbush is talking about?

    7 A. I'm sorry. I don't know which one you mean.

    8 Could you describe it a little bit more, because

    9 Mr. Tabbush is going to probably testify about more

    10 trees than one.

    11 Q. All right. That tree, is it visible on the

    12 shot taken at 15.42? Let's try it this way.

    13 A. I'm confused now. I'm sorry, I'm really

    14 confused now.

    15 Q. This tree, is it visible on the videotape at

    16 15.42, the one that we took?

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, which tree? Mr. Fila,

    18 could you specify which tree you're referring to?

    19 MR. FILA: A tree that Mr. Dzuro talks about

    20 in his report stating that it's 370 metres away from

    21 the house, and that this poplar --

    22 Q. Please, take Prosecutor's Exhibit 222. We're

    23 talking about this tree probably. This will be

    24 easier. Take Prosecutor's Exhibit 222. Here at the

    25 left-hand corner behind the bus, that's the tree I'm

  65. 1 talking about.

    2 A. That's clear now. So I can tell you that

    3 that --

    4 Q. That's the one that I'm asking you about.

    5 A. Yes. The tree in Vukovar which, I believe,

    6 is a poplar tree which you can see on this still is a

    7 distance of 370 metres from the house, which I believe

    8 is depicted at 15.42, in the north direction, direction

    9 to the north. It means to the centre of Vukovar.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Dzuro, so there's no mistake

    11 about this, would you look at the still which we've got

    12 in front of us, which I think is, in fact, 222? Would

    13 you point again to the tree, the poplar tree, is that

    14 right, that you're referring to? Could you point to

    15 it?

    16 A. (Indicating).

    17 JUDGE MAY: So that we have it described, it

    18 is, in fact, the tree which is somewhere towards the

    19 centre of the photograph. And of those on the left of

    20 the photograph, it's the one on the right?

    21 A. Your Honour, in my testimony, I was asked

    22 about this tree. (Indicating).

    23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    24 A. And this tree is --

    25 MR. FILA: That's the tree I'm talking about

  66. 1 too.

    2 A. -- 370 metres north from the house, which you

    3 can't see on these photographs, which is somewhere

    4 hidden behind the buses.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    6 A. I'm talking about the direction north. It

    7 means from the house towards the centre of Vukovar,

    8 which is on the left side of the road. And if I can

    9 use -- Your Honour, if I can use the map I prepared, I

    10 could actually depict that on the map as well.

    11 MR. FILA:

    12 Q. How far is from the tree until 15.36? What's

    13 the distance between the location 15.36 to the tree?

    14 What's the distance --

    15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, before we go on, let us

    16 get this marked on the map. Yes, let the witness mark

    17 it, please.

    18 A. Your Honour, I measured the distance between

    19 the house, which I believe is depicted at 15.42, and I

    20 marked it on the map here. (Indicating). And the

    21 distance between this location and the tree, which is

    22 somewhere right behind this railway tracks which cross

    23 on the road, I did not mark it on my map, because I did

    24 not consider it as an -- I'm not an expert on trees,

    25 but the tree is there. It's right across these railway

  67. 1 tracks which are crossing the road. And the distance

    2 in between this tree and the house depicted in 15.42,

    3 which I believe is there, is 370 metres.

    4 MR. FILA:

    5 Q. What's the distance between 15.36 and 15.42?

    6 It's 370 metres, isn't it, between the point at 15.36

    7 and 15.42?

    8 A. Mr. Fila, the distance between the tree,

    9 which is depicted in the video, the one with the hole

    10 in the top, I can show it on the still I took from the

    11 video --

    12 Q. No, no, that's the mulberry tree. I'm

    13 talking about the very same poplar that we were

    14 discussing earlier. You said that this poplar was 370

    15 metres away from the house?

    16 A. That's correct.

    17 Q. That house, 15.42, according to you, down to

    18 the point depicted at 15.36, what's the distance

    19 between those two points?

    20 A. Mr. Fila, I'm talking about the distance

    21 between the house depicted in 15.42 and the tree which

    22 is depicted at --

    23 Q. No, no, no.

    24 A. Can I --

    25 Q. No, this is the misunderstanding, obviously.

  68. 1 We showed that this tree was some distance away from

    2 the house. What's the distance between the house

    3 depicted at 15.42? How far is it from the place

    4 depicted at 15.36 on the videotape?

    5 A. That's what I'm trying to answer. If you can

    6 see the still which was made out of the same video,

    7 this Defence video, is it a Prosecution exhibit?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: It's 215.

    9 THE WITNESS: Can I see both of them, please?

    10 A. Mr. Fila, did you mean this place? I put it

    11 on the ELMO.

    12 MR. FILA:

    13 Q. Yes, 15.36, that's the last shot. That's the

    14 last shot, is that correct, at 15.36?

    15 A. I'm sorry. It is actually not the last shot

    16 because the car continues driving in a south

    17 direction. So this is just about three seconds before

    18 the tape stops. And this tree with the hole on the top

    19 part and the house is 263 metres. So now to make it

    20 clear, I'll show it on the map, if I could, please?

    21 Q. All right.

    22 A. Just to make it clear, this is the house

    23 depicted at 15.42, which I believe is there, and the

    24 mulberry tree is here. This distance is 263 metres.

    25 Q. And where is the tree, the poplar? Where is

  69. 1 the poplar tree?

    2 A. The poplar tree, I explained before, is

    3 somewhere here. (Indicating).

    4 Q. So 15.36 is halfway down to the poplar?

    5 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Fila, but it confuses me.

    6 Q. No, no, no, no, no, no. I withdraw the

    7 question.

    8 My last question, just to add something to

    9 your report, if I'm correct, it is your claim that from

    10 15.36, instead of continuing on to Negoslavci, the car

    11 made a U-turn and went back towards Vukovar; is that

    12 correct? That is your contention.

    13 A. My testimony is that the 15.36 is south from

    14 15.42. It means that if somebody drove the vehicle on

    15 that road from Vukovar towards Negoslavci and he wanted

    16 to get from the 15.36 to 15.42, he had to make a turn

    17 and return back to Vukovar.

    18 Q. That's what we're saying. Was he, by doing

    19 that, going further away from the turnoff for Ovcara?

    20 A. Yes, that's correct.

    21 Q. Please, since you made all the calculations,

    22 and I take it for granted that they are all correct,

    23 the distances from VELEPROMET, the only thing we missed

    24 is if you can calculate for us the time, of course,

    25 approximately, how far is the place that you claim is

  70. 1 15.42 to Ovcara? In terms of time, how long will it

    2 actually take you, actually, either to the turnoff or

    3 the hangar in Ovcara? It should be easy for you to

    4 calculate that using your report. So what is the time

    5 necessary?

    6 A. If you would just give me a little more time

    7 for that?


    9 MR. FILA:

    10 Q. Not a lot. If I was able to calculate that,

    11 and I had really great difficulties passing my math

    12 exam, then you should do it too. You have VELEPROMET,

    13 the distance from VELEPROMET to the hangar in Ovcara,

    14 about 1.000 metres. So you should subtract the 715

    15 metres and that should do the trick. Not in seconds;

    16 we don't need to be that precise.

    17 A. Your Honours, I did a quick calculation here,

    18 and I could be wrong by seconds, but it's about 8

    19 minutes, because the distance is less. 713 metres from

    20 VELEPROMET to the house, it's about 713 metres. So I

    21 had to deduct that from the 800 metres which is the

    22 distance between VELEPROMET and Ovcara, it's about

    23 7.000 metres remains, 7 kilometres, yes. And then the

    24 speed --

    25 Q. 7,100, yes.

  71. 1 A. And if I use the speed 50 kilometres per

    2 hour, it means that it's 14 metres per second.

    3 Q. About eight minutes, yes, that's what I

    4 calculated myself. Another thing that I'm interested

    5 in: How far is it from the Ovcara turnoff to the

    6 hangar in Ovcara, so from the turnoff from the

    7 Vukovar-Negoslavci road to the hangar? How many

    8 minutes, of course, always bearing in mind that you are

    9 not stopped and that you're driving at the speed of 50

    10 kilometres an hour and that the road is clear.

    11 A. The distance between the turn from the

    12 Negoslavci turnoff towards Ovcara and the hangar in

    13 Ovcara is 4.800 metres.

    14 Q. You drove that way, so that's why I'm asking

    15 you. How long did it take you to get to the hangar

    16 from the turnoff at the Vukovar-Negoslavci road where

    17 you said that the road was really bad, how long did it

    18 take you?

    19 A. In real time, it took me six minutes to

    20 drive, six minutes to drive in a speed 48 kilometres

    21 per hour. So I didn't want to use in different speed

    22 limits in a different direction. That's why I

    23 calculated that on the 50 kilometres an hour because it

    24 would give you a fair assessment on the time. In an

    25 actual situation which I drove, I drove on average 48

  72. 1 kilometres an hour and it took me six minutes to get

    2 from the Negoslavci turnoff to the hangar.

    3 Q. All right.

    4 MR. FILA: Thank you, Your Honours. I have

    5 no further questions.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?

    7 Re-examined by Mr. Williamson:

    8 Q. Mr. Dzuro, early on in the cross-examination,

    9 Mr. Fila asked you if you had determined if everything

    10 on the tape was accurate up to 15.42, did he not?

    11 A. Yes, that's correct.

    12 Q. And what were you checking for accuracy?

    13 A. My task was to find out --

    14 MR. FILA: We have a problem in

    15 interpretation. I asked up to 15.36, not 15.42. I

    16 apologise but that was my question.


    18 Q. Very well. He asked you up to 15.36, did he

    19 not?

    20 A. I believe that's correct.

    21 Q. And what were you checking for accuracy?

    22 A. My task was to find out whether the location

    23 depicted on the videotape corresponded with the

    24 locations in reality in Vukovar.

    25 Q. Are you in a position to say anything about

  73. 1 the authenticity or accuracy of other aspects of the

    2 videotape?

    3 A. No, I'm not.

    4 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. You have

    5 witnesses, the FBI witness for that, I hope.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: But why are you objecting? I

    7 don't understand why.

    8 MR. FILA: Well, this is not a witness

    9 qualified to answer questions about the accuracy of the

    10 videotape.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: This is exactly what

    12 Mr. Williamson is asking you.

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's correct. My question

    14 to the witness was, are you qualified and he said no.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.


    17 Q. You indicated also in cross-examination that

    18 you took a number of other photographs of the location;

    19 is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, I did.

    21 Q. At this time, I would like to show you four

    22 more photographs, the first one which we'll mark as

    23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 235. And this appears very

    24 similar to some of the other photographs that we've

    25 already seen, does it not?

  74. 1 A. That's correct. That's why I selected only

    2 the ones I thought would be descriptive for the court

    3 and these others are repetitive. They are from

    4 slightly different angles. As I testified, I tried to

    5 get a good angle of the roof and other features to

    6 match them with the still from the video. So these are

    7 just repetitive photographs.

    8 Q. Now, I would like for you to see the

    9 photograph I'm going to mark as Prosecutor's

    10 Exhibit 236. If you can examine this and then contrast

    11 it with the photograph, Prosecutor's Exhibit 235, and

    12 just explain what differences, if any, there are

    13 between the two photographs in terms of perspective.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson, may I ask you

    15 whether your questions are, to some extent, linked to

    16 the questions asked by Mr. Fila in cross-examination?

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, it is. This is in

    18 relation to the distance between the telephone pole and

    19 the road and just explaining the perspective here. All

    20 of these photographs, I think, will help to clarify the

    21 questions that Mr. Fila was asking about distances and

    22 the capability of getting a truck into certain places

    23 and all of that. There's four photographs all

    24 together.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


    2 Q. Mr. Dzuro, looking at these two photographs,

    3 the ones identified as 235 and 236, do you notice any

    4 difference in the location of the telephone pole in

    5 relation to the road between the two photographs or

    6 what appears to be a difference in location?

    7 A. Yes, you can see what I tried to explain to

    8 Mr. Fila. If you stand on the road and take the

    9 picture, you get a different angle, and then the

    10 distance between the electric pole and the road looks

    11 different. If you go to a different location and take

    12 the same picture of the same location, you get, again,

    13 you get a different position. That's why I actually

    14 didn't measure this, because if I tell you it's three

    15 metres away from the road, it will not give you any

    16 help, because we can't compare that. We can't compare

    17 the factual position of the pole with the pole which is

    18 depicted in the video. We don't have any comparison.

    19 That's why I tried to do the photographs from a

    20 different angle and match it with the still.

    21 Q. And, in fact, also in this photograph, there

    22 appears to be a difference in distance between the shed

    23 and the telephone pole, does there not?

    24 A. It does appear on the photo, of course.

    25 Q. Now, I would like to show you what I'm going

  76. 1 to mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 237, and if you can

    2 identify this, please?

    3 A. May I?

    4 Q. Please. Go ahead.

    5 A. If I may use this other photograph, which is

    6 227, at the same time? This is just for the

    7 beginning. I took this photograph, which is marked as

    8 227, from somewhere here on the road, looking in this

    9 direction towards the wall, and this is the position

    10 where I found the base and the metal bar, metal post,

    11 okay? Then I walked around and I took a picture from a

    12 different angle.

    13 Can you focus it, please? A little bit

    14 more? Okay.

    15 Now, you still see the base and this metal

    16 post, and you can see the distance between the shed.

    17 Q. Finally, I would like for you to look at a

    18 photograph I'll mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 238, and

    19 if you can identify what's depicted in this photograph?

    20 A. This is the shed which you can see on the

    21 previous photographs on the right side of the road.

    22 Maybe I can use this photograph which is marked 223 --

    23 I'm sorry, 236, to show what I am talking about.

    24 This is this shed here on the side of the

    25 road, and then this photograph, the second photograph,

  77. 1 is taken from the road in the direction of the

    2 building, so we can see the driveway here. This is the

    3 place where I believe was parked this trailer.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would tender

    5 these Exhibits 235 to 238.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Mr. Fila?

    7 MR. FILA: No, but I have a question. This

    8 is again something new being introduced.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. That is precisely why I

    10 asked the Prosecutor about the sense, the meaning of

    11 his questions, but he rightly explained that these are

    12 questions related to those you put in

    13 cross-examination, to clarify the issues --

    14 MR. FILA: All right.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: -- you raised in

    16 cross-examination, so it's quite proper to, through

    17 this exhibit, clarify the position.

    18 MR. FILA: I do not object to these being

    19 admitted. I agree. But since I haven't seen those, I

    20 just want to ask one question: Where is the sign? And

    21 then when I get this answer, everything is okay. I

    22 don't object to the admission of these.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: You may ask a question, of

    24 course.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, Your Honour,

  78. 1 before these are tendered, if that's fine. If he has

    2 some questions in relation to these photos, we would

    3 have no objection to him asking them at this point.


    5 MR. FILA: One.


    7 Re-cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

    8 Q. My question is as follows: Mr. Dzuro, since

    9 you can see very clearly on these photographs -- if you

    10 had given me those photographs earlier, there would be

    11 no question. Where is the traffic sign on Exhibit

    12 237? Where is the traffic sign? Where did you put the

    13 traffic sign, if you can just show it? No, no, the

    14 other one. This is the only one where we can see

    15 something. On the other one, we won't be able to see

    16 anything.

    17 A. Mr. Fila, it is difficult for me to show it

    18 on that one because it doesn't appear there. I

    19 placed -- I placed the traffic sign -- no, I placed the

    20 traffic sign somewhere here, in almost the same line,

    21 90 degrees to the road. It was just further down from

    22 the road.

    23 Q. Is this the place where it was broken?

    24 A. I removed it from here, I put it closer to

    25 the road, but it is approximately the same area, here

  79. 1 (indicated).

    2 Q. That's what I'm saying. I wasn't asking for

    3 this direction but the other one.

    4 So approximately where it was felled but

    5 closer to the road, right?

    6 A. Yes, that's correct.

    7 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. That's what

    8 I wanted.

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: And, Your Honour, just one

    10 other brief matter that I would like to show to

    11 Mr. Dzuro.

    12 Continued re-examination by Mr. Williamson:

    13 Q. If we can show the portion of the videotape

    14 which has been marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 230, and

    15 I want to show the portion where it is approaching the

    16 house where you've identified as the one at 15.42, and

    17 in particular, if you can describe anything that's

    18 depicted on this videotape in relation to the location

    19 of the chimney on the house?

    20 (Videotape played)

    21 A. Can you freeze it, please? A little bit

    22 back, please. Backward. That's too much. That's

    23 enough.

    24 So you see the roof of the building -- I

    25 mean, the whole roof of the building, which I believe

  80. 1 is the one depicted at 15.42, and then the chimney is

    2 actually in the second half of the building coming from

    3 the street, from the road, which is not close to the

    4 road but further, the second half of the roof, and if

    5 you go slowly towards the building, you will see it

    6 much more clear. I just wanted to point it out because

    7 here you can see the whole roof.

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 A. Stop it. Now we can see the chimney there.

    10 So it's more than half of the roof coming from the

    11 direction of the street. So that's the reason why it

    12 wasn't depicted on the video, because on the video you

    13 can see just the first -- not even half of the roof.

    14 Q. If we can continue with the video, I think

    15 that perspective might be clear.

    16 (Videotape played)

    17 A. Stop here.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. Okay. I have no

    19 further questions, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No questions?

    21 Thank you. I assume there is no objection to

    22 our witness being released. Thank you so much for

    23 giving evidence for such a long time. Thank you.

    24 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: And you may be released.

  81. 1 (The witness withdrew)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the Prosecutor

    3 whether he is now going to call both Mr. Tabbush and

    4 Witness R?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: As long as time allows, we

    6 will. I think Mr. Tabbush's testimony will not --

    7 hopefully will not be nearly as long as Mr. Dzuro's,

    8 and again, I think one of the things that lengthened

    9 his was having to view the videotapes and all of this

    10 which took us approximately 30 minutes, so we're going

    11 to make every effort to complete both of them this

    12 afternoon. We have already spoken with Witness R, and

    13 if, for some reason, we cannot get to him today, he is

    14 available to return next week, and so we would be able

    15 to do that.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: If it is possible, Your

    18 Honours, and if we need to, we certainly have no

    19 objection to working past 5.00 if we can, if that can

    20 be arranged with the other parties but ...

    21 JUDGE MAY: No.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry, we can't. So we

    23 are going to hear the Witness R next week, so there

    24 will be five witnesses for the Prosecution?

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: I believe there would be six

  82. 1 altogether if Witness R testifies next week. I believe

    2 we would have Witness R, Witness S, Mr. Corwin,

    3 Mr. Herold, Professor Wagenaar, and Dr. Gudjonsson, and

    4 I don't think that any of these witnesses will be

    5 nearly as long as Mr. Dzuro has been. I think that

    6 this will have been our lengthiest witness.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. This is fine with you,

    8 Mr. Fila? There will be no rejoinder witnesses? Are

    9 you going to call any? No. There will just be closing

    10 statements after. First of all, six witnesses, and the

    11 closing statements.

    12 MR. FILA: No, Your Honour. There will be

    13 two witnesses of mine then, but I believe that all this

    14 will go forward fairly quickly.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: It's rejoinder witnesses --

    16 on the personality of the accused or as a rejoinder?

    17 MR. FILA: No. According to the Rules of

    18 this court, I have the right to rejoinder. One is a

    19 psychologist and another is my investigator who has

    20 been to Vukovar in the meantime, and I have no idea

    21 what he saw there.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well. So could you call

    23 your witness?

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, Your Honour. At this

    25 time, we would call Mr. Tabbush.

  83. 1 (The witness entered court)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Could you

    3 please make the solemn declaration?

    4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    6 truth.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    8 seated.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson?

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Your Honour.


    12 Examined by Mr. Williamson:

    13 Q. Mr. Tabbush, what is your occupation?

    14 A. I'm a silviculturist.

    15 Q. What is a silviculturist?

    16 A. Silviculturist is a scientist who deals with

    17 the science and art of managing trees, woodlands, and

    18 forests.

    19 Q. Is this commonly referred to as forestry?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. How long have you been engaged in work in the

    22 field of forestry?

    23 A. I graduated in forestry in 1972 and have been

    24 professionally engaged in forestry ever since.

    25 Q. Where did you receive your education?

  84. 1 A. At the University College of North Wales.

    2 Q. Where are you currently employed?

    3 A. I am currently employed by the UK Forest

    4 Services, Forestry Commission Research Station, at

    5 Alice Holt not far from London.

    6 Q. How long have you been employed with this

    7 organisation?

    8 A. I've been employed by the Forestry Commission

    9 for 24 years. More than half of that time I've spent

    10 in research.

    11 Q. Do you have a certain field or fields of

    12 specialisation?

    13 A. Well, my job title is Head of Silviculture

    14 and Seed Research at Alice Holt, but there are a number

    15 of specialisms which fall under that hat. For

    16 instance, I am personally involved in research on

    17 poplar trees' coppice, and also I have a number of

    18 positions which involve me with tree collections

    19 and arboreta.

    20 Q. Do you also have specialisation in the field

    21 of dendrology?

    22 A. Yes. Dendrology is the study of individual

    23 trees, and that falls within my responsibilities.

    24 Q. Are you affiliated with any professional

    25 organisations?

  85. 1 A. I'm a member of the UK Institute of

    2 Chartered Foresters. I am also a member of the

    3 International Poplar Commission, which is a United

    4 Nations organisation.

    5 Q. Have you been involved, in the past, in work

    6 abroad as a consultant for the United Nations?

    7 A. Yes. I have been engaged in missions for the

    8 food and agriculture organisation of the United Nations

    9 in China.

    10 Q. Were you seconded to the UN by the British

    11 government for this work?

    12 A. Yes, I was.

    13 Q. Have you done other work abroad?

    14 A. Yes. I have worked in -- well, immediately

    15 after graduation, I worked in southern Africa in

    16 forestry research. I've also attended the

    17 International Poplar Commissions meetings in Hungary

    18 and dealt with the conservation of black poplar also in

    19 Hungary.

    20 Q. Have you been engaged in studies in the past

    21 wherein you have had to investigate and identify

    22 certain characteristics of particular trees?

    23 A. Yes. I've published two papers on the ageing

    24 of individual Yew trees in English churchyards and in

    25 ancient woodland.

  86. 1 Q. Have you had any other works published?

    2 A. Yes. I have published 45 papers.

    3 Q. Have you provided a list of these

    4 publications to the Office of the Prosecutor?

    5 A. Yes, I have.

    6 Q. At this time, I would like to show you a

    7 document which will be marked as Prosecutor's

    8 Exhibit --

    9 THE REGISTRAR: 239.

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Bos.

    11 Q. -- 239. Is this a copy of your curriculum

    12 vitae and the list of publications you have authored?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would tender

    15 this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 239.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, no objection?

    17 MR. FILA: No.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


    20 Q. Mr. Tabbush, in April of this year, were you

    21 contacted by the Office of the Prosecutor in regard to

    22 identifying some trees which were depicted on a

    23 videotape?

    24 A. Yes, I was.

    25 Q. As a result of work done in this regard, did

  87. 1 you prepare a written report which was submitted to the

    2 Prosecution?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. At this time, I would like to show you this

    5 report which we'll mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 240.

    6 Is this the report you prepared?

    7 A. Yes, it is.

    8 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would tender this as

    9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 240.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No objection.


    12 Q. During the course of the initial consultation

    13 with the Prosecution in April, did you have an

    14 opportunity to view some photo stills which had been

    15 made from a videotape?

    16 A. Yes, I did.

    17 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to view

    18 portions of that videotape that had time displays of

    19 15.36 and 15.42?

    20 A. Yes, that's correct.

    21 Q. Based on what you saw, did you feel that

    22 there was sufficient material available which would

    23 allow you to positively identify the trees which were

    24 depicted?

    25 A. Yes. Some of the video stills were of

  88. 1 sufficient quality to make out major branch angles and

    2 the positions of major branches.

    3 Q. Now, subsequent to that time, in May of this

    4 year, did you have occasion to travel to the Vukovar

    5 area in order to personally examine the trees that were

    6 in question?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. At this time, I would like to show you a map

    9 of the Vukovar-Negoslavci area which I will mark as

    10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 241.

    11 Mr. Tabbush, have you seen this map before?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. In fact, you have indicated three particular

    14 locations on this map -- or identified three locations

    15 on this map which are so indicated, have you not?

    16 A. Yes, that's correct.

    17 Q. We won't refer to the map again for a moment,

    18 but just -- I think it would be good to have it in so

    19 that if you do need to refer to it at any point, please

    20 feel free to do so.

    21 When you were in the Vukovar region, did you

    22 have an opportunity to travel the route from the centre

    23 of Vukovar to Negoslavci to Orolik?

    24 A. Yes, I did.

    25 Q. During the course of travelling this route,

  89. 1 did you recognise a tree which is depicted in the

    2 segment of the video with the time display of 15.36?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. I would like for you at this time to view

    5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 215, and also I'll ask him to view

    6 232, so if you could perhaps provide that at the same

    7 time, Mr. Bos?

    8 Looking at this exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit

    9 215, is this the same tree that you recognised?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. Now, I would like for you to view

    12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 232. Is this the way that the

    13 tree appears today?

    14 A. Yes, that's correct.

    15 Q. What is different, if anything, between the

    16 two photographs?

    17 A. Based on the time line on the video, six

    18 growing seasons have passed between these two images,

    19 and therefore, the fine branch tracery has extended and

    20 become thicker.

    21 Q. What kind of tree is this?

    22 A. It's a mulberry tree.

    23 Q. How did you recognise this tree?

    24 A. By inspecting it on site and taking away

    25 samples of foliage and fruits for identification.

  90. 1 Q. Is there anything distinctive about this

    2 tree?

    3 A. It is distinctive in this region. There are

    4 no other trees like this along the road between Vukovar

    5 and Orolik. The tree is a pollard, which means that

    6 it's been cut at above chest height probably several

    7 times during its life, and that then causes the fine

    8 branch tracery to appear.

    9 Also, its two main branches here leave a hole

    10 between them, what appears to be a hole between them,

    11 which is very characteristic.

    12 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that this

    13 tree is the same one as depicted in the video segment

    14 marked 15.36?

    15 A. None at all.

    16 Q. As you travelled this route, were you also

    17 able to recognise any of the trees which you believe

    18 might have been depicted in the video segment marked

    19 15.42?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. What kind of tree did you initially recognise

    22 there?

    23 A. Well, the original one was a Lombardy poplar

    24 I had seen on the video still, segment 15.42, what

    25 appeared to be the outline of a Lombardy poplar or a

  91. 1 tree of similar appearance.

    2 Q. Is there something distinctive about this

    3 Lombardy poplar?

    4 A. Yes. It's a very distinctive tree with

    5 upswept branches.

    6 Q. I would like for you at this time to view

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 222, and if this can be displayed

    8 on the ELMO as well, and if you would point out the

    9 tree you're talking about?

    10 A. I'm referring to the very upswept branches of

    11 this tree here with a very straight central stem and

    12 then upswept branches with a very tight angle between

    13 those branches and the main stem.

    14 Q. Now, after spotting the Lombardy poplar, did

    15 you recognise another tree in that immediate area?

    16 A. Yes, I did.

    17 Q. How did you recognise this tree?

    18 A. This tree bears a certain spatial

    19 relationship with the building behind it.

    20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to examine the

    21 tree more closely?

    22 A. Yes. In fact, I had a video still with me of

    23 the building and of this particular tree, and I

    24 examined the branch angles and the arrangement of the

    25 main branches of that tree in relation to the image on

  92. 1 the video.

    2 Q. What did you look for in trying to determine

    3 if this tree that you were examining was the same one

    4 depicted in the videotape at 15.42?

    5 A. Firstly, there is the spatial relationship

    6 with the Lombardy poplar. It had to be some distance

    7 from it because of the way in which it appears in the

    8 video. Also, it bears a relationship with a building

    9 which has its gable close to and facing the road.

    10 Q. At this time, I would like for you to look at

    11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 218. Is this the tree that we're

    12 talking about?

    13 A. Yes, indeed. This is the tree I inspected.

    14 Q. What kind of tree is this?

    15 A. It's a walnut tree.

    16 Q. What was your conclusion after examining this

    17 tree as to whether it was the same one seen in the

    18 video segment at 15.42?

    19 A. Yes, I recognised this tree immediately.

    20 Q. Now, after you located these various trees

    21 from the videotape, did you document their locations on

    22 this map which we have marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    23 241?

    24 A. Yes, that's correct.

    25 Q. The tree that you identified from the video

  93. 1 segment at 15.36 is located at where on the map?

    2 A. That's the mulberry tree at point C.

    3 Q. And the Lombardy poplar seen in the video

    4 segment?

    5 A. Is at point B.

    6 Q. And that's from 15.42; correct?

    7 A. Yes, that's correct.

    8 Q. And the walnut tree, which is also seen in

    9 the video segment from 15.42, is located where?

    10 A. At point A.

    11 Q. At this time, I would like you to also look

    12 at Prosecutor's Exhibit 223, which has already been

    13 entered into evidence, which is a map that Mr. Dzuro

    14 prepared, and can you tell me if the locations you've

    15 marked as point C and point A correspond to locations

    16 that Mr. Dzuro had marked on his map?

    17 A. Yes, they do. Shall I point them out?

    18 Q. Yes, if you would, please, and explain what

    19 the correspondence is?

    20 A. The mulberry tree here is at point C. Sorry,

    21 I must put my glasses on. Point B is here.

    22 Q. Is that point B or point A?

    23 A. Sorry, yes, that's point A. You can tell by

    24 this little patch of green here this is point A.

    25 Q. Very well, thank you.

  94. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would tender

    2 the map as Prosecutor's Exhibit 241.

    3 Q. Now, you've indicated that you travelled the

    4 entire route from Vukovar to Orolik. As you went

    5 through these areas, did you attempt to rule out other

    6 trees which might be similar in some way?

    7 A. Yes, I started by looking for other Lombardy

    8 poplars.

    9 Q. Did you locate any other Lombardy poplars in

    10 the region?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did you photograph them?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. At this time, I'd like to show you a

    15 photograph which I'll mark as Prosecutor's

    16 Exhibit 242. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. If I can

    17 have that one back, I think I've got these confused as

    18 to order. I apologise. This would be what we mark as

    19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 242.

    20 Can you tell us what is depicted in this

    21 photograph?

    22 A. Yes, this is the Lombardy poplar which I

    23 located at point B and photographed.

    24 Q. I'd like to show you the next one which I'll

    25 mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 243. Can you tell us what

  95. 1 is depicted in this photograph, please?

    2 A. This is another Lombardy poplar along this

    3 road, but it doesn't bear the same relationship to a

    4 walnut tree and a building, as does the Lombardy poplar

    5 in the first photograph, the previous photograph.

    6 Q. Is there also something different about the

    7 growth at the top of this tree as opposed to the one

    8 that we saw in the previous exhibit?

    9 A. Yes, it doesn't have the same branching

    10 pattern at the top as the one on the video segment or

    11 the one that I have photographed at point B.

    12 Q. I'd like to show you the next one which I'll

    13 mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 244. What is shown in

    14 this photograph?

    15 A. This tree here is a poplar, but it's an

    16 ordinary hybrid poplar and not one of the Lombardy

    17 poplars. I included it to show that this is the most

    18 common poplar found among this road. The Lombardy

    19 poplars are much fewer.

    20 Q. And, finally, Prosecutor's Exhibit 245, what

    21 is shown in this photograph?

    22 A. This is another Lombardy poplar. As you can

    23 see in this case, it doesn't look like the one in the

    24 video and is no where near any buildings.

    25 Q. Did you have any difficulty distinguishing

  96. 1 the poplars that are depicted in the last three

    2 photographs from the one that was in the first

    3 photograph and the one that was seen in the videotape?

    4 A. No, I didn't.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would offer

    6 these four photographs as Prosecutor's Exhibits 242

    7 through 245.

    8 Now, as you travelled around the area in

    9 Negoslavci, particularly, did you notice other

    10 characteristics which were present and which were

    11 different from what is seen in the video segment at

    12 15.42?

    13 A. Yes. Generally speaking, in Negoslavci,

    14 there is a bigger gap between the buildings and the

    15 road. And very often there are two lines of trees

    16 between the buildings and the road taking up this

    17 greater space.

    18 Q. After returning from Vukovar, did you do any

    19 follow-up work to further confirm your assessment that

    20 the walnut tree you've marked as point A on the map

    21 was, in fact, the tree depicted in the video segment

    22 from 15.42?

    23 A. Yes, I did.

    24 Q. Did you use any photographs or video stills

    25 to assist you in this process?

  97. 1 A. Yes, I did.

    2 Q. How did you use these photographs?

    3 A. My objective was to identify patterns of

    4 branching on the video stills which were also present

    5 on photographs taken at point A on the map. I did this

    6 by examining areas of video still where the main branch

    7 angles were clearly visible, where there was a

    8 reasonably good definition in the video still.

    9 Q. Did you use these photographs to create a set

    10 of photographic overlays?

    11 A. Yes, I did.

    12 Q. How did you go about doing this?

    13 A. I used imaging software and a flatbed scanner

    14 to scan the images and the photographs in such a way

    15 that I was able to scale them to the same scale. And

    16 then I cropped the image taken from the photograph so

    17 that it was small enough to fit over the video still

    18 image. This then, because it's at the same scale,

    19 allows you to see whether the branches coincide.

    20 Q. And the first overlay that you did was

    21 referred to in your report as compilation 1, was it

    22 not?

    23 A. That's correct.

    24 Q. At this time, I would like for you to view

    25 this.

  98. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: I will mark this as

    2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 246, please.

    3 Q. Can you identify these set of photographs?

    4 A. Yes, this is compilation 1 that you've just

    5 referred to.

    6 Q. In creating this compilation, you relied on

    7 two photographs that have been marked as Prosecutor's

    8 Exhibit 220 and Prosecutor's Exhibit 228, did you not?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: And, perhaps, if those

    11 photographs could be shown to Mr. Tabbush.

    12 Q. Now, if you can explain to the court how

    13 you've created this compilation, please?

    14 A. All right. The reason I chose this one first

    15 was because, as a tree grows, it gross from its tips.

    16 And although this will alter the structure of the

    17 branch tracery, it doesn't alter the major

    18 relationships between the trunk and the main branches

    19 and the angles between those. These will only grow in

    20 girth and they won't change their relative positions

    21 with time.

    22 This particular video still here shows the

    23 position very briefly between the buses where you can

    24 actually see the main trunk and the main branch angles

    25 coming from it. I, therefore, scanned this image

  99. 1 first.

    2 Q. Which appears as image 1A on the compilation;

    3 correct?

    4 A. That's correct. I then examined this

    5 photograph, which appears to be taken from a similar

    6 angle, and looked for major points of commonality

    7 between the two images, for instance, this point where

    8 two branches fork and this point here. I then used

    9 that reference point to drag the image of this onto the

    10 image here and scaled it so that the major points of

    11 commonality and the roof gable matched.

    12 Q. After doing that, did you see some

    13 correspondence between the branches in the photograph

    14 marked as 228 and the still from the video marked as

    15 Exhibit 220?

    16 A. Yes, I did.

    17 Q. I would now like for you to look at the next

    18 overlay, which is identified as compilation 2 in your

    19 report, and we will mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    20 247, please.

    21 Can you explain to the court what you did in

    22 regard to this compilation?

    23 A. This compilation was built in exactly the

    24 same way as compilation 1, except using these different

    25 images.

  100. 1 Q. And I believe those are Prosecutor's Exhibits

    2 218 and 226, if you can see those, please? I'm sorry,

    3 224; it's 218 and 224.

    4 A. 224, it should be a video still.

    5 Q. I apologise to Mr. Bos and the usher. I know

    6 we're going through a lot of different photographs here

    7 back and forth.

    8 In any event, Mr. Tabbush, perhaps if you can

    9 just explain what you have done here, and maybe it is

    10 not necessary to have both of the photographs, but,

    11 again, if you can just explain what you have done in

    12 creating this compilation which we have now marked as

    13 Prosecutor's Exhibit 247.

    14 A. I have here Exhibit 218, which I think may be

    15 the one.

    16 Q. I believe that's correct, yes.

    17 A. I went through exactly the same process as

    18 with compilation 1. And you can see here the scanned

    19 image of the photograph 224, which I have scaled to fit

    20 in this position here. In image 2C, it's overlaying,

    21 over image 2A, and you can see very clearly the

    22 correspondence of branches.

    23 Q. Now, in looking at this compilation, the

    24 angles on the house do not seem to match exactly.

    25 A. No.

  101. 1 Q. Why is that?

    2 A. The angles of the house, of course, depend on

    3 the exact position of the camera. If the camera is

    4 slightly to one side, it will make this angle smaller.

    5 So I don't think that this photograph was taken at

    6 precisely -- although it's a very similar angle, it

    7 wasn't taken at precisely the same angle as the video.

    8 Q. Now, I'd like to show you the next item,

    9 which I'll mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 248, and I

    10 believe this was the third compilation also created

    11 using these same photographs, 218 and 224; was it not?

    12 A. That's correct. I think you were referring

    13 to the two compilations, 3 and 4 together there.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, if I can also get

    15 compilation 4, please. Compilation 4, I'll mark as

    16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 249.

    17 Q. Can you explain to us what is shown in these

    18 two items, Prosecutor's Exhibit 248 and 249; 248 being

    19 compilation 3, and 249 being the one you've labelled

    20 compilation 4? What is shown in these two documents?

    21 A. For the sake of clarity, I'll just show

    22 compilation 3 first. With the software, it's possible

    23 to drag the corners of these images to make them bigger

    24 or smaller without altering the relative positions of

    25 anything within them and also to move them to one

  102. 1 side. So, in this case, this image originally covered

    2 the page, and I then dropped straight lines on

    3 significant lines. In this case, A/B is this roof line

    4 and B/C is the other roof line defining the gable end.

    5 I then dropped the other straight lines over

    6 the main branches in each case. This was in order to

    7 make an objective comparison between the two images. I

    8 then moved the image to one side, which reveals the

    9 lines, which I could then use to measure the angle. In

    10 each case, I measured the acute angle between the

    11 branch access and the roof, which I use as a reference,

    12 B/C.

    13 Q. Now, did you also create -- I'm sorry, if you

    14 can, then go on to compilation 4.

    15 A. Yes. Okay, compilation 4 is exactly the same

    16 exercise done but using the photograph instead of the

    17 video still. This is the photograph taken by Vladimir

    18 Dzuro in February of this year.

    19 Q. So when it says on here "1997," that's

    20 incorrect?

    21 A. I think the --

    22 Q. At the bottom where it says, "Compilation 4,

    23 angles taken from photo 7 taken in 1997" --

    24 A. I believe that's incorrect. It should be

    25 19 -- because I think the dates actually appear on the

  103. 1 photographs.

    2 Q. What did you do in terms of comparing

    3 compilation 4 and compilation 3?

    4 A. I tabulated these angles in each case,

    5 firstly from compilation 3 and then from compilation 4,

    6 and then I compared the two sets of angles

    7 mathematically.

    8 Q. I'd show you now what I'm going to mark as

    9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 250, and if you can explain what

    10 this is, please?

    11 A. This is the table of the angles. You'll see

    12 here that A/B -- since B/C was the reference, A/B is

    13 the other roof line. So the difference here is the

    14 difference between the two roof angles, which was

    15 caused by a difference in positions of the camera. But

    16 I then related -- because I'd used the edge of the roof

    17 as the base line, the rest of the numbers here are

    18 comparisons between major branch angles subtended at

    19 the roof from the still and from the photograph. At

    20 the bottom of this table, you can see the regression

    21 coefficients which are very high.

    22 Q. Now, finally, I would like for you to look at

    23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 251 and, if you can, please

    24 identify what this shows.

    25 Mr. Tabbush, if I can just go back a moment,

  104. 1 this table that you've just seen, that you've talked

    2 about, which was marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 250,

    3 you said that these numbers here are very high at the

    4 bottom. Can you explain a little further what you

    5 mean? What do these numbers mean and what do you mean

    6 when you say that they are very high?

    7 A. Right. I can explain this best by reference

    8 to this figure 1, which is --

    9 Q. Marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 251; this is

    10 the graph?

    11 A. It's the graph. And it compares the branch

    12 angles on the video still with the branch angles on the

    13 photograph. If there were no relationship between

    14 these two, you would expect a random shotgun blast of

    15 points just dotted across this graph. But because

    16 there is, in fact, a very close relationship, you get

    17 the points clustering around a straight line. The

    18 mathematical technique used to describe that is called

    19 linear regression, and the regression coefficient

    20 should approach 1 if there is a close relationship

    21 between the two; and the linear regression is, in fact,

    22 very close to 1.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tabbush, help me with

    24 something. What does "subtended" mean?

    25 A. I'm sorry, yes. I mean that when a branch

  105. 1 angle, for instance, this one, is made to meet this

    2 line, so you can extend this using parallel lines, it's

    3 the acute angle between this line and, in every case,

    4 roof line B/C. So it's bringing everything to a common

    5 basis.


    7 Q. And so all of these angles were done in

    8 reference to the line B/C which is the house. That's

    9 your static figure; correct?

    10 A. Yes, in both images.

    11 Q. Now, the mathematical calculations that you

    12 have done and arrived at these numbers, would you

    13 consider this to be almost a perfect match?

    14 A. It's a very close match, indeed, yes.

    15 MR. WILLIAMSON: So I would, at this time,

    16 tender these various charts and photographic overlays

    17 as Prosecutor's Exhibits 246 through 251.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from Mr. Fila?

    19 MR. FILA: No.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


    22 Q. Mr. Tabbush, are there certain

    23 characteristics unique and distinctive to a particular

    24 tree which would differentiate it from other trees and

    25 allow you to positively identify it?

  106. 1 A. Yes. The arrangement of the major branches

    2 on a tree are caused by a combination of genetic and

    3 environmental factors so that no two trees will be

    4 exactly the same.

    5 Q. In this regard, trees are somewhat like

    6 people, are they not, except perhaps even more unique,

    7 since environment also affects their appearance?

    8 A. That's right. Not only environment, of

    9 course, but they are -- people are symmetrical about a

    10 central access. Trees aren't symmetrical about any

    11 access. So if two identical trees were rotated through

    12 ten degrees, you would see a different image of

    13 branching.

    14 Q. If you have two trees that are genetically

    15 identical planted next to each other, would their

    16 appearance be the same?

    17 A. It would be extremely unlikely. Even if

    18 there were no environmental factors, it would be

    19 extremely unlikely that they were both planted in the

    20 same radial orientation. In other words, one is more

    21 likely to be rotated around its vertical access with

    22 respect to the other one. It would be very unlikely

    23 that they would both be planted in the same

    24 orientation.

    25 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that this

  107. 1 walnut tree that you examined and on which you have

    2 done these comparisons is the same one that is depicted

    3 in the videotape at 15.42?

    4 A. None at all.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no

    6 further questions.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We may now take a

    8 15-minute break and then we will reconvene in 15

    9 minutes.

    10 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 3.48 p.m.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila.

    13 MR. FILA: Your Honour. I will ask a few

    14 questions related to the arithmetic, as Mr. Williamson,

    15 he perhaps understands that part about compilations. I

    16 don't.

    17 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

    18 Q. But I want to ask: Professor, if I

    19 understood you correctly, you were in Vukovar at the

    20 time of full vegetation whereas your compilations and

    21 analysis were based on the photographs and the video

    22 stills made by Mr. Dzuro; did I understand that

    23 correctly?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

    25 Q. Then my second question would be: Does this

  108. 1 tree which we see in front, Prosecutor's Exhibit 218,

    2 you said that after a certain time, it grows wider,

    3 not -- it doesn't grow upwards. I mean the walnut.

    4 A. Yes. Can I explain?

    5 Q. Yes. That's what I would like you to

    6 explain.

    7 A. Trees extend from their tips, they don't

    8 grow, as it were, in the middle of branches, so they

    9 leave behind them the major branch angles which

    10 represent where buds were set as the tree grew.

    11 Q. Not there, on the other one. Please show

    12 that.

    13 A. For instance, this major branch angle here

    14 would remain once it was formed by the terminal bud, as

    15 it grew upwards, it would remain behind as a major

    16 branch position and would not change its height with

    17 time (indicated).

    18 Q. Well, in which -- so I understand you

    19 correctly, in which period of growth does the tree

    20 reach its maximum height above which it doesn't grow

    21 any longer? How many years does it take?

    22 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I don't think I've made

    23 myself clear. The tree grows in height throughout its

    24 life, but as it grows, it leaves behind it the

    25 significant pattern of branching which doesn't change

  109. 1 with time, but, of course, the height of the tree

    2 changes continuously throughout its life.

    3 Q. So am I correct in my understanding that, for

    4 instance, relative to this roof or the bus, the

    5 widening of the angle is not the same, but in the

    6 course of growth, this changes?

    7 A. The angles remain as they are. What changes

    8 as the tree grows is that the branches get fatter, they

    9 increase in girth, but the bud positions remain as they

    10 were when they were laid down throughout the life of

    11 the tree.

    12 Q. But the height, but the height growths, so

    13 this bud is not always in the same position relative to

    14 a fixed point?

    15 A. As this -- if I may point at this branch

    16 here? At the end of a certain year, the tree was at

    17 this height. It then produced two buds. One bud

    18 produced a side branch and the other one produced a

    19 more vertical branch. At the end of the next year,

    20 this branch was here and this branch was somewhere

    21 around here (indicated). I can't see exactly. So the

    22 tip is extending, but the position left behind remains

    23 as it was at the time that this node, i.e. this

    24 branching position was formed during the development of

    25 the tree.

  110. 1 Q. I understand that. I understand that much,

    2 yes. But this part of the tree which you've just shown

    3 us, this branching position, does it grow relative to

    4 the ground? Do I make myself clear?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Does it grow in height like a person grows?

    7 A person, for instance, has a big nose, but he grows in

    8 height. Is it the same with trees?

    9 A. No. No, it's not the same. It's not the

    10 same with trees. Trees -- this point here does not

    11 progress up the tree as the tree grows; it's left

    12 behind. The bud then extends from here for a year,

    13 sets another bud, and then continues to extend, but

    14 this angle will always be at the same height above the

    15 ground as it was when it was formed (indicated).

    16 Q. I see. Look, for instance, at the edge of

    17 the bus and then look at this lower part, the first

    18 branching position, above the bus. That's it. And a

    19 bit to the right. That's it.

    20 Up to which year did this grow and when did

    21 it stop growing relative to the roof? I don't know

    22 which way to explain it better. Does it always have

    23 the same parallel or does it grow, because the house

    24 doesn't grow. At least that much we can assume.

    25 A. I can't tell exactly in which year this fork

  111. 1 formed, but let us say --

    2 Q. That's exactly what I'm asking.

    3 A. Yes. But when it was formed, which was

    4 several years ago, you can tell that from the growth

    5 rate of the tree, it formed in this exact position

    6 above the ground and then remained there as the tree

    7 grew above that point.

    8 MR. FILA: I apologise, Your Honour. I feel

    9 a little stupid, like a parent explaining something to

    10 a child and then starting with butterflies, but I'll

    11 try to make myself as clear as possible.

    12 Q. In the eight or seven years since the event

    13 and the pictures made by Mr. Dzuro, did this ratio

    14 change between the tree and the house, just in terms of

    15 height, not in terms of angles, not in terms of

    16 anything else?

    17 A. The height -- this is six --

    18 Q. That's exactly this part which I'm interested

    19 in, relative to the house. Please draw a line to the

    20 house, to the left. Did that remain the same for the

    21 past seven or eight years, or is it lower or higher

    22 than it used to be at the time of the event?

    23 A. The same.

    24 MR. FILA: It remained the same for the past

    25 seven years. That's what I wanted to know. Thank

  112. 1 you. No more questions.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing further, Your

    4 Honour.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no

    6 objection to the witness being released.

    7 Mr. Tabbush, thank you for coming here to

    8 give evidence. You may now be released.

    9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    10 (The witness withdrew)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: So I think the Prosecutor may

    12 wish to call Witness R. I understand you only request

    13 the use of a pseudonym.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: That's correct, Your Honour,

    15 yes. I call Witness R, Your Honour.

    16 (The witness entered)

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Could you

    18 please make the solemn declaration?

    19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I shall

    20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    21 truth.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    23 seated. Mr. Niemann?

    24 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honour pleases.

    25 WITNESS R.

  113. 1 Examined by Mr. Niemann:

    2 Q. Witness, their Honours have agreed to permit

    3 you to use a pseudonym rather than your name during the

    4 course of testimony, so during the testimony, you will

    5 be referred to as "Witness R," so you shouldn't mention

    6 your name during the course of your testimony.

    7 But for the purposes of identification, would

    8 you please look at the piece of paper that is now shown

    9 to you, and without reading out the name there, can you

    10 tell me whether the name that appears there is, in

    11 fact, your name?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps that could be shown to

    14 Mr. Fila, and I tender that, Your Honours, under seal.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 252.

    16 MR. NIEMANN:

    17 Q. Witness R, on the 8th and 9th of May of this

    18 year, were you interviewed by an investigator from the

    19 Tribunal, Mr. Kevin Curtis?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. During the course of that interview, did he

    22 take down a statement from you in the English language

    23 which was read back to you in your own language?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. After the statement had been read back to

  114. 1 you, did you then affix your signature to the foot of

    2 each page of that statement?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Would you please look at the document now

    5 shown to you and tell me whether or not, in the English

    6 version of that document, you can recognise your

    7 signature on each of the pages of it?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 253,

    9 Serbo Croatian translation 253.

    10 MR. NIEMANN:

    11 Q. Just look through each page, if you would for

    12 me, Witness R? Does your signature appear on each page

    13 and is that the statement that you gave to Investigator

    14 Curtis?

    15 Could you speak up so we can hear you,

    16 please, if you don't mind, so we can get a record of

    17 what you say?

    18 A. Yes, that is my signature.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, if Your Honours

    20 please.

    21 Q. Witness R, are you, by profession, a medical

    22 practitioner?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings,

    25 Slavko Dokmanovic?

  115. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How well do you know him?

    3 A. I've known him fairly well. We worked

    4 together in the same sports club, soccer club.

    5 Q. Did you work in that capacity as a medical

    6 practitioner?

    7 A. Yes, I worked there as a doctor.

    8 Q. For approximately how long have you known

    9 him?

    10 A. Since 1983.

    11 Q. At one stage, would you have considered

    12 yourself to be on friendly terms with Mr. Dokmanovic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did you know members of his family?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did members of your family also happen to

    17 know members of Mr. Dokmanovic's family?

    18 A. Yes. We used to visit. We used to call on

    19 them.

    20 Q. Approximately how often would you have seen

    21 them in the years leading up to 1991, on an average?

    22 A. In '83 and '84, we saw them every week, and

    23 at work, we saw each other daily, and also, in the

    24 soccer club, every time there was a need for treatment

    25 of one of the players.

  116. 1 Q. Now, in the years immediately preceding 1991,

    2 were you familiar with the types of uniforms, military

    3 uniforms, worn by military persons in the former

    4 Yugoslavia?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Why is it that you were familiar with these

    7 uniforms?

    8 A. On several occasions, I, as a doctor, was on

    9 duty at practice of the soccer club -- I was in the

    10 reservists force serving there as a doctor.

    11 Q. Did you actually serve in the reserves as a

    12 doctor?

    13 A. No, because I was not a Yugoslav citizen.

    14 Q. I see. Can you describe the types of

    15 uniforms that were worn by reservists at that time?

    16 Are you able to give us a description?

    17 A. Yes, I could. It was a grey-olive colour,

    18 shirt, trousers. They had a different uniform for the

    19 winter with a warm lining.

    20 Q. Did you know a person called Goran Hadzic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. How well did you know that person?

    23 A. Superficially. Not very well.

    24 Q. Did you know members of his family?

    25 A. Yes, his brother, Dr. Mladen Hadzic, and

  117. 1 Mladen Hadzic's father.

    2 Q. Why is it that you knew his father?

    3 A. In September of 1991, he was wounded, and I

    4 helped him and treated him until the end of the war.

    5 Q. In May of 1991, were you called to carry out

    6 an examination of some policemen, on the bodies of

    7 policemen that had been killed in Borovo Selo?

    8 A. No, I was not summoned. I went there

    9 voluntarily. There were many wounded. And I went

    10 there on my own initiative, and later I went to Vukovar

    11 to summon help.

    12 Q. Did you, in fact, ultimately carry out a

    13 medical examination of the bodies of these policemen?

    14 A. I was an observer assisting the pathologist

    15 and other doctors.

    16 Q. Where did you do this examination?

    17 A. In the General Hospital of Vukovar.

    18 Q. What did you observe about the bodies?

    19 A. Except being dead, the bodies showed signs of

    20 abuse. Their throats were cut and their eyes were slit

    21 out.

    22 Q. Had there been anything else done to the

    23 bodies? Had there been any sexual assaults on the

    24 bodies that you could see?

    25 A. On two bodies, the genitals were cut off.

  118. 1 Q. Did you know or ascertain the ethnic

    2 background or nationality of these policemen?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Now, prior to the actual outbreak of

    5 hostilities in the Vukovar region, did you have

    6 occasion to see Mr. Dokmanovic in the town of Trpinja?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Can you describe the circumstances of how it

    9 is that you came to see him there?

    10 A. In the beginning of August, I received an

    11 invitation from a family whose son was an invalid, a

    12 six-year-old, and I was called to treat him. So I

    13 went, and my wife accompanied me, and also because I

    14 had many friends there. So I reached the barricades at

    15 the entrance to Trpinja and I was allowed to pass. I

    16 went to examine the boy, and many citizens of Trpinja

    17 found out -- learned that I was there and invited me to

    18 help them too.

    19 On my way back, I dropped in on a friend, and

    20 on my way back from Trpinja, I met Dokmanovic, who was

    21 escorted by other persons, several other persons.

    22 Q. Now, where did you see him? Where did you

    23 see Mr. Dokmanovic?

    24 A. It was right in central Trpinja.

    25 Q. When was this? What date, approximately, as

  119. 1 best you can remember?

    2 A. It was the first week of August.

    3 Q. What was Mr. Dokmanovic doing, anything in

    4 particular?

    5 A. No, I think he was together with four or five

    6 people who were armed but in civilian clothes.

    7 Q. How was Mr. Dokmanovic dressed at the time?

    8 A. He was dressed in drab olive trousers and a

    9 shirt of a slightly lighter colour.

    10 Q. Did you recognise these clothes as being of

    11 any particular type?

    12 A. They were usually worn by the reserve force,

    13 the reservists. The reservists keep these uniforms,

    14 keep this clothing at home.

    15 Q. Was this uniform a plain colour or was it

    16 what is often known as camouflage?

    17 A. It was plain, plain olive in colour.

    18 Q. Was Mr. Dokmanovic armed at the time?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Now, what do you mean when you said that he

    21 was being escorted? What did you mean by that

    22 statement?

    23 A. Well, these were people from Trpinja, armed.

    24 Some were dressed in civilian clothes, some wore

    25 military clothes.

  120. 1 Q. Did you ascertain what the relationship

    2 between them and Mr. Dokmanovic was?

    3 A. Well, the relationship, those people were

    4 escorting him because he was the president of the local

    5 community there. And later on, he was the president of

    6 the municipality, the municipal assembly in Vukovar.

    7 Q. So when you say "escorted," you're not

    8 suggesting he was their prisoner or anything of that

    9 nature?

    10 A. No, no. He came to talk to me. We exchanged

    11 hellos. I recognised one of those people and I said

    12 hello to him as well.

    13 Q. Who appeared to be the person in charge of

    14 the group, as such, if I could put it that way?

    15 A. I think he was in charge.

    16 Q. What discussion did you have with him? Was

    17 it just a social discussion or can you recall?

    18 A. He asked me how I was. He told me to say

    19 hello to my wife. I asked him about the conditions of

    20 life and so forth.

    21 Q. Had you seen Mr. Dokmanovic dressed in this

    22 way before?

    23 A. No, never. He was always in civilian

    24 clothes, a suit and a tie. He was never dressed like

    25 that before.

  121. 1 Q. And did you ask him why he was dressed this

    2 way or have any conversation with him because he was --

    3 about this matter?

    4 A. No, I never had any discussions about

    5 politics.

    6 Q. Now, during the course of the war, where did

    7 you stay? This is during --

    8 A. In Borovo Naselje.

    9 Q. Did you stay there for how long, right up

    10 until what date?

    11 A. I remained in Borovo Naselje from July '82

    12 until the end of the war when I was captured on the

    13 19th of November, 1991.

    14 Q. Now, when were you captured in November of

    15 1991? My question is: What date in November 1991 were

    16 you captured?

    17 A. 19th of November.

    18 Q. Where were you captured?

    19 A. In the factory.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter

    21 apologises. I didn't hear the name.

    22 A. The New Shoes factory.

    23 MR. NIEMANN:

    24 Q. And where is the New Shoes factory? Where is

    25 it located?

  122. 1 A. In the centre of Borovo Naselje.

    2 Q. Who captured you?

    3 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

    4 Q. When you say they captured you, why did they

    5 capture you; do you know?

    6 A. They captured everybody there, the entire

    7 population.

    8 Q. When they captured you, what did they do with

    9 you?

    10 A. They separated the men from the women. Then

    11 all the men above the age of 14 were put on buses and

    12 we were all taken to Vojvodina.

    13 Q. And where is Vojvodina? In what republic?

    14 A. In Serbia.

    15 Q. What part of Vojvodina were you taken to?

    16 A. Near the town of Zrenjanin. It was a farm.

    17 It was a farm in the woods.

    18 Q. When you got to this place, Zrenjanin, what

    19 happened then?

    20 A. We were there. There were about 20 buses.

    21 The buses stopped about 20 metres away from the

    22 entrance. And as we got out, we had to pass through

    23 a gauntlet of people who beat us all the way to the

    24 entrance to the cattle barns.

    25 Q. Who were the people that beat you as you ran

  123. 1 through the gauntlet to the entrance?

    2 A. The military police, civilian police,

    3 civilians who were armed.

    4 Q. The military and civilian police of where?

    5 A. Of Serbia.

    6 Q. When you ran through the guantlet, what

    7 happened then?

    8 A. They beat us from both sides with rifle butts

    9 and batons.

    10 Q. What happened then?

    11 A. Then we were all gathered at the entrance and

    12 we had to sit down on the floor, put our heads down,

    13 hands behind our backs, and they beat us again.

    14 Q. Now, how long did you stay in this place,

    15 this farm?

    16 A. We arrived at around 9.00 p.m. until 3.00

    17 a.m.

    18 Q. What happened at 3.00 a.m.? What happened to

    19 you then?

    20 A. Among us who were captured there, there were

    21 people of Serbian ethnic background who had remained in

    22 Borovo Naselje throughout the war. When we were being

    23 beaten, one of the captives, a Serb, started shouting

    24 "Why do you beat me? I'm a Serb just like you are."

    25 He was then asked to say his name and then he was

  124. 1 allowed to go in. Then the other people also gathered

    2 courage. There were several more Serbs, and so it

    3 lasted until 3.00 a.m. Then nobody else said that they

    4 were Serbs.

    5 I thought that as a non-Yugoslav citizen, as

    6 a foreigner, I also thought that I should try my luck.

    7 I said, "I am a foreign citizen. I'm not a Yugoslav.

    8 I'm not a Croat." Then they asked me where I was from,

    9 and (redacted) that I lived

    10 (redacted). They said, "No, you are a mercenary."

    11 So they separated me from the group, put me

    12 in the other part of the shed, and five or six people

    13 started to beat me really hard. It lasted for about 20

    14 minutes. Then they left me alone.

    15 After about 15 minutes, I saw a civilian. I

    16 only saw his legs and they were dressed in denims. I

    17 was unable to look up. He told me, he asked me,

    18 "Doctor, are you being beaten as well?" And he said,

    19 "Come with me. They will not beat you anymore." I

    20 thought that was a joke because he was in civilian

    21 clothes.

    22 Then he took me below my armpits and he

    23 mentioned my name, and he said, "Doctor, nobody is

    24 going to beat you anymore." I looked at him. He was a

    25 young man, about 25. And he looked at the major who

  125. 1 was in charge, and he said that I should not be beaten

    2 anymore. And he took me inside the shed. That's where

    3 the Serb captives were held. I stood there until the

    4 morning.

    5 Q. And then you were taken ultimately to another

    6 place?

    7 A. I was there until the morning, and then the

    8 camp commander arrived, Colonel Zivanovic. The

    9 civilian talked to him, approached me, and said that

    10 there was a mistake, they didn't know who I was and, if

    11 possible, I should help them in the camp because there

    12 were quite a few wounded people among the prisoners,

    13 and they did not have any medical personnel.

    14 I said, "No problem, but I can't do it

    15 alone. There are other doctors among the captives."

    16 And he allowed me to look for them. (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 nurses. So we were put in a separate part of the shed,

    19 given five blankets, and they said that this should be

    20 the medical unit, that we should be helping the

    21 detainees. That's how I started to work there.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may seek a

    23 redaction at line 17.

    24 Q. After about five days, after you had been in

    25 this camp -- no, I withdraw that, Your Honours.

  126. 1 What was the nature of the camp that you

    2 worked at as a doctor?

    3 A. It was an old farm, and it seems that it was

    4 out of use for a long time. We were in the shed where

    5 pigs used to be kept. There were throws still there

    6 but there was no water. There were no windows, no

    7 electricity. When we arrived, the electricity was

    8 installed. We were there for seven days and we were

    9 unable to leave the room. There were about 1.500 of us

    10 and 200 more arrived later.

    11 There was no wire around. It took them seven

    12 days to put up the wire fence and to install

    13 a latrine. Until that time, we used a place behind the

    14 wall for our physical needs. For the first two days,

    15 nobody ate anything. A soldier brought some water on

    16 his shoulders, and then if a guard was in a good mood,

    17 would give the water to those people who were thirsty.

    18 If he was in a bad mood, he wouldn't give you any

    19 water. We slept on the floor.

    20 Q. Who was running this camp?

    21 A. Lieutenant Colonel Zivanovic.

    22 Q. With what organisation was he involved and

    23 with what organisation was he attached to?

    24 A. Military police of the JNA.

    25 Q. This was the JNA police establishment, was

  127. 1 it, a military police establishment?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. After four or five days, did you see someone

    4 at the camp that you knew?

    5 A. The third day, that was the first time when I

    6 was brought in for questioning, there was a small

    7 building outside the shed. It was probably some kind

    8 of an office while the farm was in operation. There

    9 were several offices there. I went there three days in

    10 a row to be questioned. I think on the fourth or on

    11 the fifth day when I was in the camp, after the

    12 interrogation at around 11, when I was brought into the

    13 corridor, I met Mr. Dokmanovic and four other people

    14 who were in his escort.

    15 Q. How was Mr. Dokmanovic dressed on this

    16 occasion?

    17 A. He was wearing a military -- a pair of

    18 military trousers, dark green, and on top, he had some

    19 kind of a jacket, a military jacket of a plain colour.

    20 It was short.

    21 Q. Again, was the whole uniform of a plain

    22 colour or was there any part of his uniform which was

    23 of the camouflage sort?

    24 A. It wasn't a camouflage. It was a plain

    25 colour uniform.

  128. 1 Q. Was he armed on the occasion that you saw

    2 him?

    3 A. The jacket was zipped up so I couldn't see

    4 any arms or weapons.

    5 Q. Now, the people that were with him, how were

    6 they dressed?

    7 A. They wore camouflage.

    8 Q. Did you recognise whether or not they were a

    9 part of any military establishment, as such, from the

    10 way they were dressed?

    11 A. They did not have any insignia on their caps.

    12 Q. Were they wearing caps?

    13 A. Some, some had caps.

    14 Q. Did they have arms? Were they carrying any

    15 arms?

    16 A. Yes, rifles.

    17 Q. Were the rifles of the military type or the

    18 civilian type of hunting rifle?

    19 A. No, automatic weapons.

    20 Q. Again, when you saw these people with

    21 Mr. Dokmanovic, did they, again, appear to be escorting

    22 him?

    23 A. Yes, they walked behind him. He was right at

    24 the front, the first.

    25 Q. Did you gain any impression as to his

  129. 1 position vis-à-vis or with respect to the other people

    2 that he was with?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What impression was that?

    5 A. Well, that he was in charge, that he was the

    6 boss.

    7 Q. Now, when you saw Mr. Dokmanovic, did you get

    8 a clear view of him?

    9 A. Yes, the corridor was about a metre and a

    10 half wide, and we passed each other by. I was getting

    11 out of the corridor; he was getting in. When he saw

    12 me, he turned his head away, as if I didn't exist.

    13 Q. Do you think that he saw you?

    14 A. 100 per cent sure.

    15 Q. Why are you 100 per cent sure that he saw you

    16 on that occasion?

    17 A. Because at that moment, I was there with my

    18 guard leading me out, and he was getting in. There was

    19 no other choice. This was a rather narrow corridor.

    20 Q. Did you attempt to speak to him? I'm afraid

    21 your answer hasn't appeared on the transcript, so could

    22 you answer that question? Did you attempt to speak to

    23 him? You need to speak up.

    24 A. No, I did not.

    25 Q. Why didn't you attempt to speak to him?

  130. 1 A. I was a detainee and I was not allowed to do

    2 anything without permission, because we were beaten

    3 when we disobeyed.

    4 Q. How did you feel when you saw

    5 Mr. Dokmanovic? What was your reaction?

    6 A. I was disappointed, sorely disappointed.

    7 Q. Why were you disappointed?

    8 A. I was disappointed because, as a friend, he

    9 knew that I was a foreign national. He knew that I had

    10 remained there purely in the capacity of a doctor, and

    11 he could have helped me.

    12 Q. Why do you say that he could have helped you?

    13 A. Well, as the mayor of Vukovar, he must have

    14 had some influence, if nothing else.

    15 Q. Did you know whether or not he was the mayor

    16 of Vukovar at that time, that particular time?

    17 A. From the very first day when we arrived in

    18 the camp, they let us listen to Serbian news on the

    19 radio. So when I was in the camp, I heard who was the

    20 mayor.

    21 Q. And who was that? Who was it that you heard

    22 was the mayor of Vukovar?

    23 A. Mr. Dokmanovic.

    24 Q. Now, I want you to have a look at some still

    25 photographs that are taken off a video that's been

  131. 1 tendered as an exhibit in these proceedings.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is an

    3 extract from video D2. Perhaps one of the photographs

    4 could be placed on the overhead projector.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked

    6 254.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Could I have one copy back,

    8 please? I think I've given up my only copy. Oh, I'm

    9 sorry, it's okay.

    10 Q. Witness R, just looking at the photograph

    11 beside you there, you see two gentlemen; one which

    12 appears, obviously, I think, in civilian clothes; you'd

    13 agree? Just look beside you there.

    14 Do you recognise the uniform worn by the

    15 gentleman on the left-hand side of the photograph,

    16 looking at the photograph?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. What is that uniform that you recognise?

    19 A. It's a military drab olive uniform,

    20 grey/olive colour, worn by the JNA officers.

    21 Q. Now, I'd ask you to look at this photograph.

    22 Just leave that one there for the moment and look at

    23 this photograph which is shown.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Again, Your Honours, this is an

    25 extract of D2.

  132. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph is marked 255.

    2 MR. NIEMANN:

    3 Q. Now, Witness R, would you just quickly look

    4 for a moment, please, at the photograph that's

    5 displayed beside you there? Do you see the gentleman

    6 in the photograph which is closest to you on the

    7 left-hand side of the photograph, looking at the

    8 photograph?

    9 Is that the sort of uniform that you saw

    10 Mr. Dokmanovic in on two occasions that you saw him,

    11 one in Trpinja and then ultimately in the camp?

    12 A. No, the top was a plain colour, olive.

    13 Q. Of the two uniforms that I've shown you, both

    14 on Exhibit 254 and 255, what was the uniform most like

    15 the one that you saw him wearing in Trpinja in August

    16 and ultimately in the camp when you were there at the

    17 end of 1991?

    18 A. The first picture, with the exception of the

    19 top, because the top was -- he wore a short coat on

    20 top. It was a plain colour with a zipper front.

    21 Q. Thank you. Did you, during the course of

    22 time that you knew Mr. Dokmanovic, ever have occasion

    23 to hear him speak about political views and his views

    24 of Croatian people and other nationalities during the

    25 period leading up to 1991?

  133. 1 A. Yes, I did have occasion, mostly 1990. I was

    2 invited to the celebration of the anniversary of the

    3 club. And certain songs, nationalistic songs, were

    4 being sung.

    5 Q. Did you gain any impression as to

    6 Mr. Dokmanovic's views on nationalistic matters?

    7 A. Serbian, because the songs were Serbian, and

    8 they were about greater Serbia and the king and so on.

    9 Q. Would you have any view about or any opinion

    10 about his views? Were they moderate, reserved, or were

    11 they extreme?

    12 A. Extreme.

    13 Q. Doctor, I think that during the course of the

    14 war, your wife tragically died; is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. I understand that very recently her body has

    17 been exhumed.

    18 A. Fifteen days ago, I was in Vukovar, and we

    19 found her in the mass grave.

    20 Q. Approximately how many bodies were in this

    21 mass grave?

    22 A. 1.300.

    23 Q. Finally, could you look around the courtroom

    24 and see if you can see Mr. Dokmanovic in the courtroom

    25 today?

  134. 1 A. I can see him.

    2 Q. Would you please point to him and describe

    3 where he is located?

    4 A. He's wearing a grey suit, a white shirt, and

    5 he's sitting way back there.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: I think the witness was

    7 identified, Your Honours. No further questions.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila? Take

    9 your time. We can go on on Tuesday.

    10 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

    11 Q. Witness R -- is it R? Yes. Witness R, you

    12 said that on two occasions, you saw Mr. Dokmanovic

    13 wearing a uniform.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In your statement, you said that he had the

    16 same uniform both times.

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. It says that in your statement.

    19 A. I said in August he was wearing the shirt and

    20 the trousers. That's correct. In the camp, he was

    21 wearing a jacket, a plain-coloured jacket with a

    22 zippered front.

    23 Q. Was it a military jacket?

    24 A. Yes, that's the Che Guevara type of jacket,

    25 the field marshall type of jacket. American officers

  135. 1 still wear that kind of jacket.

    2 Q. Yes, but was it the uniform of the reservists

    3 that you were familiar with?

    4 A. The first one was the reservist uniform. The

    5 second one was just in addition because it was cold.

    6 Q. So the first time, you saw him in a reservist

    7 uniform?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And in December?

    10 A. It was the same thing. The same trousers,

    11 dark green, and then on top he had this jacket.

    12 Q. That's not the reservist JNA uniform.

    13 A. No, it's not.

    14 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.

    15 Did I understand you correctly that you said that this

    16 reservist uniform was the kind of uniform that was

    17 issued after serving national service, to take home?

    18 A. There were two kinds. I was very much

    19 familiar with it. There was a first type with the long

    20 overcoat, and then later on, instead of the overcoat,

    21 there was a plain-coloured uniform with pockets on the

    22 sides. It was green for soldiers, and for officers --

    23 for policemen it was bluish.

    24 Q. That's not what I asked you. The question

    25 is: Is that the kind of uniform that we were issued

  136. 1 after doing our national service to take home?

    2 A. Yes. Yes, but it was not the full uniform

    3 because it was summer.

    4 Q. So he only had the shirt and the trousers.

    5 You said that you were a family friend of

    6 Mr. Dokmanovic.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Who are the members of his family?

    9 A. Brother, who used to work for me; his wife, I

    10 was her doctor; his brother's wife, I used to visit his

    11 house, and in '85, when he started building his house,

    12 I was there every week. He was the President of the

    13 Sindelic soccer club. I was there as a doctor every

    14 Sunday, every week. After the matches, we would go to

    15 celebrate. We sat together.

    16 Q. Did you visit him at home?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Was he a good host?

    19 A. Yes, of course.

    20 Q. When you saw him in the village that time,

    21 was it inside Trpinja?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Could you please describe it in more detail?

    24 He was in a uniform, as you described, a shirt and

    25 trousers, and he was there with some other people who

  137. 1 were dressed in a different manner. What does it mean,

    2 "in a different manner"?

    3 A. Some had some parts of uniform and others

    4 were in civilian clothes.

    5 Q. What was he doing with them?

    6 A. They were walking around. He was talking to

    7 them. In the centre of the city, in the town.

    8 Q. Were they in his escort as bodyguards or were

    9 they simply accompanying him as friends? What use did

    10 he have about the guards in the centre of the village?

    11 A. I don't think he needed bodyguards there, but

    12 those were his boys.

    13 Q. His friends. What were they, his countrymen

    14 from Trpinja?

    15 A. Yes, from Trpinja. Some of them were soccer

    16 players from his club, and I can mention one of them

    17 who talked to him and his name was Savo Prodanovic. I

    18 also knew him, but I can't remember. He was from the

    19 club of Luzani, he was also with them, this other

    20 person whose name I don't recall.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Will you please speak more

    22 slowly? Please tell the counsel and the witness to

    23 make pauses.

    24 Q. Do you make a difference between people who

    25 are accompanying somebody like president of the club

  138. 1 with his players or you with your patients and the

    2 situation when somebody is escorting somebody like the

    3 entourage of a statesman?

    4 A. I understand.

    5 Q. Please answer.

    6 A. I think they were escorting him.

    7 Q. In which sense?

    8 A. As his army. They were armed.

    9 Q. But he did not have arms?

    10 A. No, he did not.

    11 Q. Do you know what was the business of Savo

    12 Prodanovic in Trpinja?

    13 A. I don't know.

    14 Q. Do you know if he was from Trpinja or from

    15 the village of Dalj?

    16 A. I don't know exactly where he came from. I

    17 know that he played in Trpinja and that's where I met

    18 him.

    19 Q. In that club in Trpinja, did Croats play

    20 soccer there?

    21 A. Yes. I already mentioned that.

    22 Q. How did he ever come to accept Croats if he

    23 was extreme?

    24 A. That was '83-'84.

    25 Q. He was not extreme then?

  139. 1 A. Yes, they were. They sang songs --

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please slow down,

    3 both of you?

    4 MR. FILA: Okay.

    5 Q. Do you mean the song, "Who says that Serbia

    6 is small?"

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. You believe that is a nationalist song?

    9 A. It was not pro-Yugoslav anyway.

    10 Q. And when Croats sang such songs, national

    11 songs, you thought they were extreme?

    12 A. They were nationalistic.

    13 Q. You, as far as I understood, believe that

    14 because the corridor is narrow, he must have seen you.

    15 You did not exchange glances.

    16 A. He must have seen me because each of us had

    17 to move to avoid the other.

    18 Q. So that's your conclusion?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You knew that in a certain period he became

    21 president of the Municipal Assembly, in other words,

    22 mayor of Vukovar?

    23 A. I don't know.

    24 Q. You know he was mayor, but you don't know

    25 whether he was president of the Municipal Assembly?

  140. 1 A. Maybe before the war. I didn't follow

    2 politics very much.

    3 Q. When was he president of the local community?

    4 A. While I was in the soccer club, '83-'84.

    5 Q. When did he become mayor of Vukovar?

    6 A. I don't know. Don't ask me. I know that

    7 after the war, he was mayor.

    8 Q. So you know that he became mayor after the

    9 war, and you don't know whether he was mayor before the

    10 war.

    11 A. I didn't follow that.

    12 Q. What did you hear on the radio when you found

    13 out that he was mayor?

    14 A. We heard about the complete government.

    15 Q. You heard about the government. Did you hear

    16 that he was Minister?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. You heard about some government?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. What was he on that government?

    21 A. He was mayor.

    22 Q. On the government?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Was he on that government?

    25 A. No.

  141. 1 Q. During your friendship, did he say anything

    2 bad to you because you're obviously not a Serb?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Did he display any hostilities towards you?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Except for singing those songs in the soccer

    7 club, as far as I understood. Did you notice anything

    8 else about him?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Did he say anything bad to anybody else in

    11 your presence?

    12 A. No. Well, you know that we were in Trpinja,

    13 which is 100 per cent Serbian.

    14 Q. But you say that Croats played soccer.

    15 A. Yes, but villages played between them.

    16 Q. My question is simple: Did Slavko Dokmanovic

    17 ever, in your presence, say anything bad about somebody

    18 who was not a Serb?

    19 A. Yes. In 1990. I was invited to the

    20 anniversary of the club and I received some sort of

    21 token of gratitude from the club, and on that occasion,

    22 they sung very nasty songs against Croats, et cetera.

    23 Q. We understood that much. But did he

    24 personally say anything?

    25 A. If he was the one who organised those

  142. 1 celebrations and if he allowed them to sing such songs,

    2 then he must have held such views. He was the

    3 organiser.

    4 Q. I understand. You mean that he was president

    5 of the club, and during the celebration of the

    6 anniversary, somebody sang nationalist songs?

    7 A. Not anyone but everybody.

    8 Q. But apart from that singing, did you ever

    9 hear him, in your presence, say anything bad?

    10 A. What do you mean? To whom could he say that

    11 if they -- they were mostly Serbs?

    12 Q. On that anniversary; that was the only

    13 occasion?

    14 A. To them, I'm a foreigner. I'm not a Croat

    15 and I'm not a Serbian either.

    16 Q. Did you see Dokmanovic, did you meet with

    17 Dokmanovic ever outside Trpinja?

    18 A. No, only in Trpinja.

    19 Q. Then I apologise because I thought you saw

    20 him outside Trpinja.

    21 A. I met with Slavko every week or every other

    22 week but in Trpinja.

    23 Q. Do you know who Pavle Maric is? Was he

    24 president of that club?

    25 A. I don't know.

  143. 1 Q. In 1991, who was president?

    2 A. The last five years, I did not spend in that

    3 club, and I didn't even work there as a doctor.

    4 Q. You mean you were just at the anniversary?

    5 A. Yes. I was there to receive that token of

    6 gratitude.

    7 Q. Do you know whether Pavle Maric was then

    8 president of the club?

    9 A. I don't know. While I was there as a doctor,

    10 he was president.

    11 Q. So you don't know who was president in 1990?

    12 A. No. I saw only Dokmanovic. He thanked me as

    13 a doctor.

    14 Q. Do you know what he said in his speech? Did

    15 he thank you?

    16 A. Yes, he thanked me for my efforts and my

    17 contribution to their success.

    18 Q. In that speech, there were no nationalist

    19 notes?

    20 A. No.

    21 MR. FILA: Could I have, please, Prosecution

    22 Exhibit D2 -- no, 48, please? Could you just show him

    23 the shirt and the trousers? Does he recognise any of

    24 those clothes as worn by Slavko Dokmanovic on those

    25 occasions?

  144. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: It's a Defence Exhibit. All

    2 right.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

    4 MR. FILA: I've been asking questions and

    5 mentioning exhibits all day long, so I'm confused.

    6 Q. Witness, of all these things I'm going to

    7 show you, did Mr. Dokmanovic wear any of these things

    8 on the first or on the second occasion?

    9 A. [Shown item of clothing] No.

    10 [Shown item of clothing] No.

    11 [Shown jacket] On the second occasion, he

    12 wore something similar but shorter and lighter in

    13 colour with a zipper. It was the second occasion, when

    14 it was winter.

    15 Q. Finally, the last question: On the second

    16 occasion you saw him, that was outside the building of

    17 the camp?

    18 A. No. Outside the casualty shed, there was a

    19 building serving as offices, and there they held the

    20 interrogation of captives. I was leaving the

    21 interrogation through the corridor, one metre and a

    22 half wide, and he was facing me coming into the

    23 corridor.

    24 Q. On that occasion when you saw him, did he

    25 ever make an utterance, a command or anything to

  145. 1 others?

    2 A. No. He just looked the other way and people

    3 behind him kept talking.

    4 Q. So he did not talk to people who were behind

    5 him?

    6 A. No. They talked between themselves.

    7 Q. How did you then conclude that they were

    8 escorting him? Perhaps they were just there by chance

    9 behind him.

    10 A. They were following him. He was leading the

    11 way. The distance between them was so small that they

    12 could not have been separate.

    13 Q. So that's your conclusion?

    14 A. Well, you see it's not a promenade. Not

    15 anyone can enter simply and walk around.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any

    17 re-examination?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no -- yes,

    20 Mr. Fila?

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

    22 MR. FILA: I am tired. Please don't mind my

    23 lapses.

    24 Your Honour, I received information from the

    25 Dutch police that perhaps the forensics of the tape

  146. 1 will be finished by Saturday -- sorry, by Wednesday.

    2 If that is so, will that report suffice, or shall I

    3 bring the person in charge of the forensic analysis?

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: I turn to the Prosecutor.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we would have to

    6 read it, but subject to reading it, being satisfied

    7 that we have no problem with it being tendered that

    8 way, certainly we would be happy to do that, if we can.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us, first of all, read

    10 the --

    11 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I would like to read

    12 it as well if I receive it. Thanks.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: But I was about to ask

    14 whether there is an objection to the witness being

    15 released. There is no objection.

    16 So, Witness R, we thank you for coming here

    17 to give evidence, and you may now be released.

    18 (The witness withdrew)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will now rise and we

    20 will reconvene on Tuesday, next Tuesday, at 9.30.

    21 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    22 5.03, to the reconvened on Tuesday,

    23 the 23rd day of June, 1998, at 9.30

    24 a.m.