1 Tuesday, 23 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, Judges.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS W-35 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Witness. This morning we shall proceed with some
12 questions that I'll ask you regarding the witness statement that you gave
13 to the Prosecution. There are, in fact, two statements; one dated the
14 21st of February, 1996, and the other on the 19th of April, 2006. Do you
15 remember clearly what you stated on both occasions, Witness?
16 A. I do. I do remember.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.
19 MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse me for interrupting, Your Honour, but if the
20 witness is going to be questioned regarding these statements, could she be
21 provided with copies to have with her.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly. Let the witness be provided with the
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask my assistant to call
25 up the statement of February 21st, 1996.
15 Do you see that passage of your declaration, Witness?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now I would like to ask you a few questions. Would you say that
18 in Sarajevo there were other means of transport, perhaps?
19 A. The trams would continue running through cease-fires. The trolley
20 buses also continued to run, those that were still roadworthy. Sometimes
21 you could notice passenger vehicles driving down streets at considerable
23 Q. Were there buses in Sarajevo at that time?
24 A. I'm telling you, the company known as Gras, G-r-a-s, that actually
25 owned the trams still kept them operating. But very few continued to
1 operate, and those that did continue to operate, at great speed, because
2 of the shooting.
3 Q. Witness, another witness testified before this Court on the 18th
4 of January, 2007, and I will quote the witness' deposition. In the
5 working version of the transcript, on page 14, line 7 -- lines 7 to 12,
6 it's a very brief passage. I will read it in English.
7 [In English] "Yes, this is parallel, and let me show you because
8 you apparently were not in Sarajevo. This was the so-called salvation
9 route parallel to the main road here, but it went behind the Marsal Tito
10 barracks and in front of the railway station. And as I mentioned
11 yesterday, at all the crossroads, there were large screens placed in order
12 to safeguard the people against sniping."
13 [Interpretation] Have you heard the translation, Witness, through
14 the interpretation?
15 A. I'm sorry, which translation were you talking about?
16 Q. Well, I was reading a passage in English. Have you heard the
17 interpretation in B/C/S?
18 A. I heard what you were saying throughout.
19 Q. Very well. Then I will ask you a question. Did you know anything
20 about this "salvation route," as the witness described, the witness who
21 appeared on the 18th of January, 2007?
22 A. All of us in Sarajevo had heard of that, but I'm not familiar with
23 any details.
24 Q. Does that mean -- then let me continue. Does that mean that you
25 never took that salvation route yourself?
1 A. The route that I took that day and the route that the trams
2 normally took during cease-fires was not called that. It was not called
3 the "salvation route." Those were just regular tram stops still called
4 the same thing today, Socijalno, Pofalici, Marin Dvor, and so on and so
6 Q. But my question was, did you ever take a bus that - well, we will
7 see this later on the map - that followed, more or less that road, the
8 "salvation road," if you know it. It is a road that is parallel to the
9 Vojvoda Putnik boulevard. It has now become Zmaja od Bosne. And that
10 road was completely protected from any possibility of firing from either
11 side of the confrontation lines between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
12 the army of the Republika Srpska. Do you agree with what I have just
14 A. I can't agree with you. I never rode on a bus. I like trams, as
15 a matter of fact. My father drove a train; he was a train driver. I like
16 trams. I still remember using them in my childhood. The street that you
17 refer to, the Zmaja od Bosne Street, at the junction where the
18 Elektroprivreda building was, it had burned down by this time because it
19 had been targeted. So that's where the confrontation line was and that's
20 where the shooting was coming from. There was a clearing there.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, remember the time constraints
22 under which we are operating. The Prosecution took about half an hour for
23 its examination.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
25 would like to clarify a few more points. That was one point among
2 Q. So now if we could please call up on the screen a map that we
3 looked at yesterday already at the end of the hearing, please. So here we
4 see a map of Sarajevo. If we could perhaps enlarge it, please.
5 On this map, we can see the part of the road, or the part of the
6 itinerary, that you wanted to take on that day, the 8th of October; do you
8 A. Yes. That is the route that the tram takes, the same direction
9 that I was headed; to my left and then towards the right-hand side. If
10 needed, I can point it out for your benefit. Down this blue path.
11 Q. Do you agree that the blue line represents Miljacka?
12 A. That's at least what I was taught in geography classes. Blue
13 stands for rivers; green stands for whether mountains or fields, I'm not
14 sure. But I suppose that this should be river.
15 Q. Yes, but since there are several rivers in Bosnia, is that the
16 river Miljacka?
17 A. I live right next to Miljacka. I don't see the name marked on
18 this map, as a matter of fact; therefore, I can hardly say. Normally, if
19 you look at maps of Bosnia and Herzegovina - and I think it's still the
20 same today in schools - back in my time, that's one thing I know for
21 certain, the river names were marked on maps.
22 Q. Yes, but my question is: Is that indeed the river Miljacka,
23 according to your knowledge, even if it's not written?
24 A. Even if it's not written, you can actually see it from the tram as
25 you are travelling. On the way to Bascarsija or the way back, passengers
1 on the tram are able to see the Miljacka river, although it is not quite
2 blue, rather muddy, I should say.
3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that the Serbs were everywhere
4 along the right bank of the Miljacka. Do you confirm that statement
6 A. What I'm talking about is the area in which I lived, in which I
7 moved about, where we had to cross obstacles, blood, pools of blood and
8 dead bodies, on our way to get water, to get bread, on our way to visit
9 other people, and we would be killed on the way there.
10 Q. So, to your knowledge, all along the right bank, that was in fact
11 the territory under the control of the army of the Republika Srpska; is
12 that true or not?
13 A. The river Miljacka runs down the right bank, if you look in that
14 direction, that part of Sarajevo, and then the left bank, if you look at
15 the other part of town. The course of the river was crisscrossed, and the
16 same applied to the city's neighbourhoods, small settlements where those
17 people lived. Some, for example, resided in Hrasno or Dolag Malta.
18 That's where we would go to fetch water. We would run across to Grbavica,
19 for example, on the left-hand side, and it is clear that the army of the
20 Republika Srpska were there. That's where we had to go to fetch water,
21 and that's where we had been shot at from.
22 Q. Can you tell us, then, for example, do you see on the map, the
23 right-hand side, the lower right, do you see, for example, Bistrik or
24 Sirokaca? Do we agree that those are areas of Sarajevo on the right bank?
25 Or, for example, you mentioned Hrasno earlier or Dolag Malta. Was that
1 the territory under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, please?
2 And would you take the pen and show us.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would ask that the map be
4 marked and then tendered as evidence.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see Hrasno, Dolag, and Malta, but
6 I can't see the streets there, and I'm hardly able to mark them for you.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I'm not asking you so specifically. I'm just asking you to show
9 the neighbourhood of Hrasno, please. Would you perhaps mark that with an
11 A. Madam, please. We were very precise in crossing to the hill of
12 Hrasno, Dolac, and Malta. We were very precise when we passed under a
13 hail of bullets. I can't show that on this map simply because the streets
14 are not there.
15 Q. Could you now show us the neighbourhood of Bistrik, perhaps?
16 A. [Previous translation continues ...] where I live. I'm not
17 familiar with that area.
18 Q. In your statement, and also yesterday, you mentioned a
19 neighbourhood and some buildings, and you say -- perhaps we could again
20 call up your statement of the 19th of April. You speak of Metalka.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I think there's a
22 problem with calling up the B/C/S version of the document, and yet it is a
23 65 ter document. So I think perhaps the registrar might help us to call
24 up the B/C/S version; 2833.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The registrar is making the effort.
1 THE REGISTRAR: I don't have the B/C/S version in e-court,
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the English
4 version. There are some technical problems, apparently, for calling up
5 the B/C/S version, so could the interpreters perhaps help us out.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear Mr. Docherty.
7 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the document on the screen has the
8 name of the witness. The witness has a pseudonym, as a protective
9 measure. Could we please go into private session while we use this, and
10 could we please redact the last few minutes before it goes out on the live
11 feed. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be done.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 Mr. Docherty, there is no need to redact anything.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no need to go into private session.
17 Do you have a view on this, Mr. Docherty?
18 MR. DOCHERTY: Only this, Your Honour. I, of course, take your
19 word that there's no need. I'm just looking at the document on the
20 monitor with the witness' name, but perhaps that's not going out of the
21 courtroom or something.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy/usher has indicated it is not.
23 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we still don't see
25 the B/C/S version on the screen, so may I just go ahead with the help of
1 the interpreters?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, do that, because we are losing time.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So it is on page 3, paragraph 9.
4 I would read it out and ask the interpreters to please interpret.
5 Q. [In English] "I'm sure that the tram in which you were travelling
6 was shot at from the Metalka building in Grbavica."
7 [Interpretation] And then there's paragraph 10, and you say the
9 [In English] "... line from the place we were shot, which was the
10 Metalka building in Grbavica, which I would say was about 200 metres
12 [Interpretation] And then to come back to paragraph 9, the fourth
13 sentence of that paragraph:
14 [In English] "There were no military institutions, military
15 vehicles or any other military equipment in the vicinity of the place the
16 tram was shot at. The closest military institution to the place the tram
17 was shot, it was the Tito barracks, which was the distance of about two
18 tram huts."
19 [Interpretation] So that was your statement, and my question is
20 whether, as you said you only really knew the neighbourhood in which you
21 lived, and in fact you didn't know precisely the military installations in
22 Sarajevo and their vicinity. Is that true?
23 A. Whenever a cease-fire was in force, during the war and before, I
24 always took the same tram lines, Socijalno, Pofalici and on to the
25 Presidency, for the simple reason that I have family living on the street
1 across the way from Skenderija. I knew those tram lines and I knew them
2 really well ever since I was a little child.
3 Q. Witness, now you're speaking about the tram lines?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yes, but my question was regarding to the confrontation lines
6 between the two armies that were fighting in and around Sarajevo and in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were you aware of that conflict?
8 A. I already told you that during cease-fire and war, we took the
9 same lines as we are taking today, and we all know all these buildings to
10 the left and to the right to this very date. However, most of them,
11 including Metalka, were demolished.
12 Q. Well, perhaps it will be third time lucky. I will try again. Do
13 you know anything about the confrontation lines between the two warring
14 factions in Sarajevo?
15 A. Are you referring to specific facilities? Can you please repeat
16 it, in which particular location you're interested in in connection --
17 with what I have in front of me.
18 Q. I can't discuss the locations with you because you said earlier
19 that you didn't know Sarajevo well enough to be able to tell us anything
20 about various neighbourhoods. So my question is: Did you know that there
21 were confrontation lines, front lines, existing between the two armies,
22 that is to say, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the
23 Republika Srpska?
24 A. Please, even small children know about that. I'm just telling you
25 about the route on which I was wounded. If I understand you correctly,
1 that's the only thing I can talk to you about; otherwise, please don't
2 bother me with that.
3 Q. And yet I heard you say, "Please don't bother me," "Don't tire me
4 out," is what I also heard in interpretation.
5 A. I apologise if you understood it literally. I'm focused only on
6 this particular tram route while I'm watching the slide in English, and
7 that is what I was focused on, and your question was whether I knew about
8 the front lines between the parties. Well, everybody knew that.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's get on with the cross-examination. You're
10 well past half an hour.
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
12 Q. Just one last question. You have been speaking about military
13 objectives, so did you know precisely where the military installations
14 were located in Sarajevo; namely, in your neighbourhood that was, I think,
15 near Grbavica?
16 A. I didn't know. We didn't have time to venture out and look where
17 these things were because most of our lives during the four years were
18 spent in cellars.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness.
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finished with my
21 cross-examination. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: And, Ms. Isailovic, you had asked all the
23 pertinent questions you wished to ask?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I hadn't finished all my
1 questions, but of course I want to comply with your ruling.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many more questions do you have that are
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that all my
5 questions are relevant, but perhaps the most relevant --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll give you another five or seven minutes. One
7 has to balance efficiency and expeditiousness with fairness. So another
8 seven minutes.
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 So I would ask that a map be called up. I asked my assistant to
11 do so. I think we already looked at this map yesterday, picture number 5
12 in the photo album offered by the Prosecution. I think this might take a
13 moment. So we will see on the screen -- could we perhaps enlarge the
14 picture a bit so that we can actually see the railroad -- the tracks.
15 Q. Witness, I still have five minutes. So you were describing the
16 fact that the incident occurred in the area of the tram line between the
17 museum and the centre of town; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And now, if you look at this picture, we see -- well, you spoke of
20 an S, something like an S, perhaps the first part of an S. Do you
21 remember approximately what the position or location of the tram was at
22 the time of impact on the tram, please? And if you could show us on the
23 screen using the pen and circling it.
24 A. I'm going to mark the line as I was approaching the place of the
25 accident. [Marks]. I was here, next to the middle door of the tram, and
1 this is where the front door of the tram was. And that's the Socijalno
2 stop. This is where I was standing, holding the pole, because I was on
3 the steps.
4 Q. If I understood you correctly, at the time when you were hit, is
5 that the area where you made -- you drew a thicker line, so to speak?
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are not getting any interpretation. Would you
8 please stop. We have had no interpretation in English.
9 Would you repeat the answer so we can have it interpreted.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived in the tram from the
11 Socijalno stop, marked with S. I put an arrow indicating the direction of
12 the tram. The front section of the tram passed, which means the front
13 door, as we call it, because each tram has three doors. I was standing at
14 the middle door, facing the pedestrian crossing, the street, the Metalka
15 and this part, and I was holding the pole at the steps of the tram when
16 the shots were fired at the tram.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question. Before
20 finishing up, I would ask the registrar to mark this picture so that it
21 may be tendered as evidence, please.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.
23 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted as Exhibit D21, Your Honours.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, any re-examination?
1 MR. DOCHERTY: No re-examination, Your Honour.
2 Before the next witness comes in, may I put briefly two things on
3 the record. They will be short.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MR. DOCHERTY: I just wanted to -- I don't think I did this
6 yesterday. But so that the pseudonym sheet matches the witness, I should
7 put on the record that this is Witness 35.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
9 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you:
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness 35, that concludes your evidence. Thank
11 you for giving the evidence, and you may now leave.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness, Mr. Docherty.
15 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution calls
16 Slavica Livnjak.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It has been suggested that we should have
18 Ms. Isailovic's map tendered into evidence, as it is a better map.
19 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I also have a copy of the same map
20 that the Defence was using yesterday. I think the Prosecution map is a
21 bit bigger and shows a bit more of the city. I should also say, though,
22 that we got this late in the afternoon yesterday. It has not yet been
23 loaded into e-court. It will be available in e-court tomorrow. I have
24 one hard copy for today.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Could the Chamber have a copy of your map,
2 Ms. Isailovic, until the Prosecution brings another one?
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can do that.
5 Please call the witness.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration. Please
8 make the declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: SLAVICA LIVNJAK
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
14 I see the time for this witness is one hour for both parties.
15 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, following up on the discussion that we
16 had yesterday, Ms. Livnjak will be giving testimony pursuant to Rule 92
17 ter. However, I will, then, be going beyond that a little bit, and that
18 will be the marking of aerial photographs and of maps that the Chamber, I
19 think, has become familiar with with these various sniping witnesses.
20 That is not in the statements that I will tender. However, I still intend
21 to conclude the direct examination of this witness in no more than 20 to
22 30 minutes.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Docherty.
24 Examination by Mr. Docherty:
25 Q. Madam, could you please begin by introducing yourself, by telling
1 us your name.
2 A. Slavica Livnjak.
3 Q. Ms. Livnjak, on the 20th of November, 1995, did you give a
4 statement to an investigator of this Tribunal?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And since arriving in The Hague a few days ago, have you read that
7 statement over carefully?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In what language did you read the statement?
10 A. In Bosnian.
11 Q. Was the report of your statement that you read accurate?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if today we went and asked all the same questions the
14 investigator asked on 20th November, 1995, would we get the same answers
15 as he got then?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I'd move for the admission of that
18 statement --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MR. DOCHERTY: -- which is ter number 2849.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P94, Your Honours.
22 MR. DOCHERTY:
23 Q. Later on, Ms. Livnjak, on the 24th and 25th of April, 2006, did
24 you give another statement to a different investigator but also from this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And since arriving in The Hague a few days ago, have you taken the
3 opportunity to read that statement over very carefully?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In what language did you read it?
6 A. In Bosnian.
7 Q. And when you read it over, did you find that report to be
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you were asked the same questions today that the investigator
11 asked you back in April of last year, would we get the same answers?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I move into evidence the second
14 statement of 24 and 25 April 2006. The 65 ter number is 2850.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P95, Your
18 MR. DOCHERTY:
19 Q. Ms. Livnjak, over and above what is in these statements, I'm going
20 to ask you some questions about where you were and where your tram was on
21 the day that it was shot, which I believe was the 8th of March, 1995.
22 First of all, is that the right date? Excuse me, the 3rd of March.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Whereabouts do you work? What do you do for a living?
25 A. I'm a tram driver.
1 Q. In Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes, in Sarajevo.
3 Q. How long have you been driving a tram in the city of Sarajevo?
4 A. It will be close to 30 years now.
5 Q. And how long have you lived in Sarajevo?
6 A. I was born in Sarajevo.
7 Q. Do you know the city quite well?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to take a look at a map.
10 MR. DOCHERTY: And unfortunately we don't have it for the monitor,
11 so if I could ask the usher's assistance.
12 Q. Did you look at this map yesterday?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it an accurate map of the city of Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 MR. DOCHERTY: For the record, Your Honours, this is another copy
17 of the map already in evidence as Exhibit D21.
18 Q. Ms. Livnjak, is there a tram line that runs along a street, and
19 forgive me if I mispronounce the Bosnian language, Zmaja od Bosne?
20 A. Zmaja od Bosne, yes.
21 Q. Do you see Zmaja od Bosne on the map that's in front of you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And could you, with the marker, just show us -- let's get our
24 bearings first. Could you show us, please, the Miljacka river.
25 A. Here it is.
1 Q. And is that indicating the blue line that is sort of winding its
2 way through the center of the map?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Above that we see a yellow straighter line. What is that yellow
5 straighter line?
6 A. That's the road, Zmaja od Bosne.
7 Q. And is that the road along which your tram -- is there a tram
8 route along Zmaja od Bosne?
9 A. Yes, there is.
10 Q. I'm going to show you some aerial photographs of this scene as
12 MR. DOCHERTY: If I could ask the court officer to please call up
13 aerial photo number 1, which is 65 ter number 2826.
14 Q. Does this photograph show you a scene that is familiar?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On the right-hand side of the monitor you'll find a silver pen,
17 and if you press on the monitor, it will make a mark. Never mind.
18 Could you take the silver pen and trace the tram line so that all
19 of us can see it.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, whether on the day in March
22 when your tram was shot, by putting an arrow on that line, what direction
23 the tram was going? So put an arrow to show the way the tram was going.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. As a tram driver, you noticed that the tram tracks
1 have a curve at the place that you have just drawn; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that is an S-curve, as we refer to it.
3 Q. And as the tram is negotiating that S-curve, what happens to the
4 tram's speed?
5 A. The tram was fired upon.
6 Q. I'm sorry if my question was unclear. My question was: When you
7 are making that S-curve, does the -- can the tram keep going at the same
9 A. No.
10 Q. What does the tram have to do in order to get round that S-curve
12 A. It has to reduce speed.
13 Q. Can you tell us, please, the last thing I want you to mark on this
14 aerial photograph, could you put a large X at the spot where your tram was
15 hit in March of 1995.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President and Your Honours, could this
19 marked-up aerial photograph please be introduced into evidence.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P96, Your Honours.
22 MR. DOCHERTY: And may I ...
23 And now may I please ask the court officer to call up aerial
24 photograph number 3. The 65 ter number would be 2825.
25 Q. This, I believe, is already in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit
1 P 93.
2 Witness, is that photograph -- can you make out that photograph
3 and the things on it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you to make a couple of marks on it. First of
6 all, just for our orient --
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I regret to say that the computer has, to use the
9 language that was used, "crashed," and it will take a minute to restart
11 MR. DOCHERTY: I would go on, Your Honour, but the balance of my
12 examination is all going to involve things with this photograph.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand. I also regret to say that, in my
14 view so far, we haven't profited from the e-court system. No doubt it
15 will improve and efficiency will be enhanced, but we'll wait for that.
16 Judge Mindua has a question in the meantime.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, while we're waiting for
18 technology to work, I have a few questions. When exactly did the tram --
19 was the tram hit? Do you remember the day?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was sometime in
21 March, March 1995. Actually, it was hit several times.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] At that moment, was there a truce
23 or a cease-fire in the city and the surroundings?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] What public or political authority
1 had announced that there was a cease-fire so that your company actually
2 decided to run the trams, thinking that it was safe?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, an agreement had been reached
4 between the Bosnian and the Serb politicians.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] One last question. Which military
6 forces controlled the city and its surroundings at that moment.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The city itself was in the hands of
8 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but once passed Miljacka - I'm talking
9 about the river bank - that particular area was being held by the army of
10 the Republika Srpska.
11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sorry, one last question, please.
12 You were driving that tram, so could you estimate where the shots that
13 actually hit your tram came from?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the right, the right-hand side.
15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We now have the photograph, Mr. Docherty.
17 MR. DOCHERTY: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
18 Q. To begin with, Witness, could you please mark the intersection -
19 we saw it more clearly on the earlier photograph - where the gunfire hit
20 your tram.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. And then, madam, as a result of living in Sarajevo all
23 of your life, have you become familiar with a building called the Metalka
25 A. Yes. I did pass it very often.
1 Q. Is the Metalka building on the photograph that's on the monitor in
2 front of you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Using the pen, would you draw an X through the Metalka building.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could this marked-up aerial
7 photograph --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Docherty.
9 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could the marked-up aerial photograph
10 be admitted into evidence?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P96, Your
14 Registrar's correction, Your Honours: That will be admitted as
15 Exhibit P97.
16 MR. DOCHERTY:
17 Q. Witness, a few minutes ago, in response to a question from Judge
18 Mindua, you testified that you were unable to recall the exact date in
19 March of 1995 on which your tram was shot at; is that correct?
20 A. The 3rd, the 5th. I don't know. I can't remember.
21 Q. Would it refresh your memory if you looked at either of the
22 statements that you gave to the ICTY investigator?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. DOCHERTY: Could I ask the court officer to please display the
25 first -- actually, it would be the second page beyond the cover page of 65
1 ter number 2849 in the Bosnian language.
2 Q. Madam, can you read what is on the screen?
3 A. Yes. I see it now. The 3rd of March, 1995, 12.15.
4 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, could we please have the
5 panoramic 360-degree view of sniping incident number 14 displayed on the
7 Q. Madam, looking at what is on the screen, is that a fair and
8 accurate picture, looking towards the Metalka building, of the location
9 where your tram was shot on the 3rd of March, 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And can you tell us on this picture from which direction the shots
13 A. From -- I'm not sure how, I can indicate that. From between the
14 museum and the Faculty of Philosophy.
15 Q. Is there a street that runs between those two buildings?
16 A. Yes. There's a zebra crossing there.
17 Q. And using that as a reference, can you tell us, did the -- did the
18 shots come down that street?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, if we could please rotate this
21 through 360 degrees.
22 Q. At the end of that, madam, I will ask you if this whole 360-degree
23 view was a fair, accurate, picture of this particular spot.
24 Would you stop there.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Stop the rotation. Do you see the building --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. DOCHERTY:
4 Q. Do you see a tall building on the screen?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in your statements you talk about pulling into the shelter of
7 a building in order to get the wounded off your tram. Is the building you
8 stopped behind on the screen now?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Which building is it?
11 A. The tall one.
12 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could continue the rotation to the end,
13 please. Thank you.
14 Q. Madam, I have three last questions and then I'll be done. On the
15 day that your tram was shot, can you tell us what the visibility was like?
16 And by that I mean, was there fog, leaves on trees, anything that made it
17 hard to see more than a few hundred metres?
18 A. Visibility was good. It was a bright, sunny day.
19 Q. Were there any Bosnian army troops or other military facilities of
20 the Bosnian army close by to the tram when it was shot?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was there any military combat going on near the tram at the time
23 it was shot?
24 A. None.
25 MR. DOCHERTY: No further questions.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
2 Ms. Isailovic.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Branislava
6 Isailovic, I'm an attorney with the Paris bar, and I represent General
7 Dragomir Milosevic, the accused in these proceedings.
8 I'm going to ask a few questions, as is usually done here, and
9 it's going to have to do with what you stated both in your written
10 statements to the Prosecution, which are introduced as evidence here.
11 You said that you remember everything you stated on November 20th,
12 1995, and on April 23 and 24, 1996. Do you still confirm that? Do you
13 still maintain that?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up the map
16 that the Prosecution used earlier, map -- the 65 ter number 2826. If
17 we're lucky, the gods of technology will be with us and the map will be
18 displayed extremely soon.
19 Q. So before looking at the display, earlier when asked by the
20 Prosecution, you said that all this occurred during a curve. The impact
21 occurred while you were taking that curve at that place that's -- well,
22 now we have the map on the screen, at the place you were shown earlier.
23 Do you confirm that? Could you please answer?
24 A. Yes. As I was entering the curve.
25 Q. Could you tell us today whether your tram was in two parts, two
1 parts connected by some kind of -- I can't find the exact word. This is
2 really technical. It's some kind of articulation, hinge. So was it a
3 tram with two cars connected together?
4 A. Yes, a so-called accordion. That's the term that we use.
5 Q. Okay. Accordion, that's the technical word I was looking for. So
6 the two cars of the tram were connected by this device?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. As the tram driver, you were in front; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is the first car longer than the second car, or are both cars --
11 or is it the other way around?
12 A. The first is slightly longer than the second.
13 Q. And the doors -- there are two doors in the front car and there is
14 a third door in the second car, after that accordion; right?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Could you please tell us where the -- how many doors there are to
17 that tram, at least in the first car, before the so-called accordion?
18 A. The first car has two and the second also has two.
19 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor asked you a question earlier. He asked
20 you what happens when you start entering into the curve, what happens to
21 the speed of the tram. I'm sure you remember this question that was put
22 to you.
23 A. Can you please repeat that.
24 Q. Yes, no problem. Earlier the Prosecution asked you a question
25 about the tram. He asked, What happens to the tram when you're going to
1 the curve? What happens to the speed of the tram? I can tell you what
2 your answer was. You said that you slow down in order to be able to
3 negotiate the curve. Is it true?
4 A. Yes, that's true.
5 Q. So this is the question that I would like to ask you: You've been
6 driving the tram for 30 years. So physically, what happens to the
7 position of that accordion and to the second car when you're negotiating
8 to take the bend? I'd like to know whether the tram really stays in a
9 straight line or whether it changes, its shape actually changes, because
10 you're negotiating the curve, or you're going to negotiate the curve.
11 A. Well, gradually, as you enter the bend, it begins to bend.
12 Q. Well, when you're in the curve, because on the photograph we see
13 that there are two actual curves -- you see that on the screen; right?
14 It's an S, so you go right and then you go left; is that it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At that very moment, can you tell us what the tram looks like?
17 Could you describe it, whether its shape actually changes. Would it look
18 like any kind of object that would be familiar?
19 A. Well, as it enters this bend, it sort of bends and it looks like
20 the moon, you know.
21 Q. The moon? You mean yesterday's moon, like it was yesterday, last
23 A. I didn't see it.
24 Q. Because it can be a full moon and then it's a circle, or it can be
25 a crescent.
1 A. Full moon.
2 Q. No, that can't be. What exactly -- what shape are you talking
3 about? I'm sure there was a little problem with translation. You
4 said "mladi mesec"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But "mladi mesec" is not full moon, it's crescent. There was a
7 translation error. So it's not like a full moon, like a circle. It's not
8 that kind of moon that you were talking about. "Mladi mesec" is not when
9 the moon is full, when it's a circle.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. That's clear now. Is it fair to say that when the
12 train has this crescent shape, both cars are exposed but in different
13 areas? Is that true?
14 A. Yes, but it really depends on its position.
15 Q. Of course. But can we agree to say that when the tram actually
16 adopts this crescent shape, the two cars are -- the two cars face
17 different sides, and they're facing two different sides.
18 A. Yes, but that's once it's reached the --
19 Q. That's in the curve. That's what we -- right into the bend. Now,
20 the day your tram was hit, there was a criminal investigation. Were you
21 involved in that? Do you remember it?
22 A. Yes, there were --
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, here again I have a
24 document that has not been introduced by Prosecution as evidence, even
25 though I obtained it from the opposite party. This is document 739 in the
1 65 ter list. It's a -- it's the criminal investigation report. I guess
2 that there is an English translation; unfortunately, we did not get it.
3 However, I wanted to use this report regarding the on-site inspection
4 after the incident, and I would like -- I would like to be granted leave
5 to use this report. It's 65 ter number 739. If I could just get
6 confirmation from the witness. On screen we have this report, and if you
7 have no objection, can I please use it?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We may be handicapped by the lack of
10 Does Mr. Docherty have this document translated?
11 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, in Bosnian, this is a several-page
12 document. I've just been looking and I found -- I have found one page.
13 That doesn't mean I don't have the others, just that I'm still looking.
14 We can proceed with the interpretation. It will be fine.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We'll break for 20
17 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue, Ms. Isailovic.
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. We were on this report, and one of its pages is displayed on the
22 screen. Witness, you told us earlier that you remember this criminal
23 investigation that was conducted after the incident.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The policemen went on site. They made a statement, and in the
1 text, in the dense part of this text, this is what we can read. We can
2 read that tram number 268, arriving towards Bascarsija, was hit in the
3 second car, between what we call this accordion and the third door from
4 the front, from the driver's seat.
5 Can you see that on the screen?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. Did you note the same thing yourself?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Earlier you said that there are two doors in the second car, after
10 the accordion, and you said that this car is shorter than the first car.
11 Could you tell us where that third door is located, the first door after
12 the accordion? What is the distance between the accordion and that third
14 A. Well, approximately, they're about 1 or 2 metres from the
15 accordion; the accordion and then the door after that.
16 Q. Would it be 1 metre or 2 metres? Is it closer to 1 metre or
17 closer to 2 metres?
18 A. Well, I didn't build the tram so I can't know that.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the victims that were in the tram? Do
20 you remember where they were sitting? Were they in the first car or in
21 the second car?
22 A. In the second car.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, could my case manager please
25 display part of the map that we saw earlier and that we presented
1 yesterday. I'm calling it our map. But on this map you see the part of
2 town where you have the place the tram was hit. Of course we need some
3 time for the map to be displayed. It is displayed now. Could it please
4 be rotated in the right direction and zoomed in a little bit.
5 Q. In your statement, Witness, you talked about other dangerous
6 areas. Do you remember that? So is it fair to say that you stated that
7 the Holiday Inn, which is the place where the incident actually occurred,
8 there's also Pofalici and Bristol.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please show us on the map these two locations, Pofalici
11 first, please, where the tram ride was dangerous. That's where the tram
12 road -- where it was dangerous. That's Pofalici. Mm-hmm.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. It's this junction, so it's right before where the red line stops.
15 It's right before the place where the incident of March the 3rd actually
16 occurred; am I right in saying that?
17 A. This is Elektroprivreda. That's it.
18 Q. This is a dangerous place. Could you please mark this with a P,
19 like Pofalici, as being a dangerous area.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And you're also talking about Bristol. Can we see that location
22 on the map?
23 A. No. This map is a small one. I can't. I can't.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I no longer have any
25 map. I have a bigger map. Could we please have it on the ELMO, maybe, in
1 order to see exactly what location we're talking about. It would be
2 interesting to see where the Bristol is actually located.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, do that.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If you could please move it around
5 slightly. Thank you. I think it's focused.
6 Q. So could you tell us exactly where Bristol is on this map.
7 A. Just a moment, please. Approximately here.
8 Q. But we also saw this on the other map. Maybe it's best to have
9 the markings on a single map. You're absolutely sure it's in that
10 location, in that area, close to Hrasno?
11 A. Yes. A little bit further from Hrasno.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If that's the case, since that
13 location can be seen on the map we used earlier, could we please display
14 the map that we saw earlier, the one that was annotated?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're now moving from map to map.
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's number D. I'm told I have to
17 give the number of this map. It's D00-02-61.
18 Q. So on this map, could you please locate Bristol. Is that the same
19 place that you already marked?
20 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
21 Q. So this is another dangerous location, at least for trams. Could
22 you please tell us what's there? We see Pofalici. That's at the foot of
23 Humsko Brdo. Do you know Humsko Brdo? It's a hill.
24 A. Yes. Pofalici is there, but it's pretty far from Hum. I mean the
25 tram tracks are pretty far.
1 Q. And on the other side, on the right bank of the Miljacka, is
2 Hrasno, which is a lot closer to that location. Do you agree with that?
3 A. Yes, but Grbavica is close as well.
4 Q. But the Hrasno neighbourhood, are there any highrises in Hrasno?
5 A. Hrasno? Yes.
6 Q. So is it fair to say that Hrasno was on a territory controlled by
7 the BiH army?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And is it fair to say that the confrontation line was between
10 Hrasno and Grbavica?
11 A. I couldn't tell you that because I didn't take part in any of that
12 in order to be able to have this knowledge.
13 Q. Witness, in your statement you say that throughout the war you
14 lived in Sulejman Filipovic Street. Is that true? And you said it was
15 very dangerous there.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Why was it so dangerous?
18 A. Because of the attacks, the shelling, the shooting, the sniping.
19 Q. Is it fair to say that your street -- I looked at the map, but
20 your street is in Dobrinja; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it fair to say that Dobrinja is in Novo Sarajevo?
23 A. No.
24 Q. No? Then will you please have the map on the ELMO.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] But first I'd like to introduce
1 the other map into evidence. We'll do that later anyway because we
2 already have the map on the ELMO. Can we move it to the right slightly so
3 we can see the Dobrinja. It's the eastern part -- no, it's the
4 south-east -- no, the other side, please, south-west. And move it up
5 slightly, if possible. A bit more. No, the other way around. The other
6 way around, please. Yes. Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, on this map now, do you see your neighbourhood, Dobrinja?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. I --
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, could you make the witness indicate the
11 place on the map, please.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. Please, Witness, could you show Dobrinja on the map, on the ELMO.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Is it true that this neighbourhood of Dobrinja was split between
16 the units of the BiH and the units of the army of Republika Srpska?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, could you please show us your street, where you lived. And
19 approximately, so we know exactly what part of the neighbourhood you lived
20 in. I'm just asking for a rough estimate. You're closer to Nedzarici or
21 closer to Lukavica?
22 A. It's closer to Nedzarici.
23 Q. Thank you. I'm sure you know that right above was a hill or a
24 mountain called Mojmilo. Do you know it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you please show us where it is, to see where it was located in
2 reference to your own neighbourhood.
3 A. Yes. Approximately here.
4 Q. Did you know that that hill or mountain was totally controlled by
5 the BiH army?
6 A. I am not meddling with these kinds of things, nor do I know
7 anything about them.
8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] An objection with the transcript.
9 The witness said "I'm not interested in military business," and on the
10 transcript this is not written.
11 Q. So did you say that you were not interested in any -- in military
13 A. I know nothing about these things.
14 Q. But in your statement you said that your tram was hit from the
15 aggressor's line. Is it true that you said that in your statement?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. So since you're not interested at all in military affairs, how did
18 you know where the aggressor was and who the aggressor was?
19 A. Well, I knew as far as this line, this part, was concerned,
20 because we had protection from UNPROFOR in order to enable us to do our
22 Q. Yes. But according to you, who was the aggressor?
23 A. The army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. And agressing whom, and agressing which territory?
25 A. The aggression conducted by them against Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Are you thinking about the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in
2 conflict with the army of Republika Srpska? Is that what you're saying?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, you had been driving a tram for 20 -- 30 years; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you're very familiar with the organisation and the running of
7 your company.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us whether there were other means of transportation
10 in Sarajevo at the time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever heard about the buses that were using the
13 so-called "salvation route"?
14 A. Yes, there were buses, but they were taking people to work, people
15 who were under work obligation.
16 Q. At the time, did you know that those buses were driving along this
17 so-called "salvation route"?
18 A. No.
19 Q. At the time, did you know what route those buses were driving
20 along? Were they driving along the same routes as the trams?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If I understood you right, they did not drive along the same
23 routes as the tram; right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I'm not too sure about your answer, about the meaning of your
1 answer, so let me make this clear. These buses did not ride along the
2 same routes as the trams; is that true?
3 A. Yes, that's true, they didn't take the same routes.
4 Q. Did you know where -- did you know what routes those buses were
5 actually taking?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Am I right to say that these buses were not owned by your own
8 transportation company?
9 A. They belonged to our company but they took workers to work, to
10 hospitals, and all those who were under work obligation.
11 Q. And as a citizen, as a worker in that company, have you ever heard
12 that these buses would have been hit, that there would have been victims
13 aboard those buses?
14 A. Yes. It happened at Mojmilo to one of the buses.
15 Q. And have you heard about something that would have happened to
16 those buses in the junction we mentioned as being extremely dangerous,
17 between Hrasno and the Holiday Inn?
18 A. Well, Hrasno is not in front of Holiday Inn.
19 Q. No, but earlier, on the map you showed us that in Hrasno, next to
20 Bristol, there was a place that was really dangerous for the tram ride.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then after that there was a whole part of the road between
23 that point and the Holiday Inn, and my question deals with that junction,
24 Hrasno, which is a dangerous point, and the other dangerous point which
25 was located at the Holiday Inn. Have you ever heard about incidents that
1 would have occurred regarding buses in that junction?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Then you just told us that you were not interested in military
4 affairs, but in your statement you say that there were no military targets
5 or objectives around the Holiday Inn where the tram was hit. But are you
6 aware of any military objectives that would have existed?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is it because you were not interested in military affairs or is it
9 because there were no such targets?
10 A. There were no such facilities because UNPROFOR was there to
11 protect us and to guarantee that nothing would happen.
12 Q. Could you please answer to my last question. According to you,
13 what exactly is a military target?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
17 Mr. Docherty, any re-examination?
18 MR. DOCHERTY: Just on one point, Your Honour, if I could.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Docherty:
20 Q. Madam, Ms. Isailovic was just asking you about military targets.
21 On the day your tram was shot and at the place your tram was shot, did you
22 see with your eyes any uniformed soldiers other than UNPROFOR?
23 A. None.
24 Q. Tanks?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Mortars or artillery pieces?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Other than UNPROFOR, did you see anything of a military nature at
4 the place your tram was shot on the day your tram was shot?
5 A. No.
6 MR. DOCHERTY: No further questions.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I forgot to ask
10 for this annotated map to get a number.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be given a number.
12 Before we do that, Judge Harhoff has a question.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Witness, I would like you to indicate on the
14 map on the ELMO with the silver pen where your tram was hit that day, on
15 the 3rd of March, 1995. If you can.
16 Madam Witness, if you can't find it on this map - because I do
17 admit it is quite small - then perhaps could you show it on the map on the
18 ELMO, the other map. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: So that's the spot?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, what's the map that you wish to
24 have admitted?
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the map that we have on the
1 screen, DD00/0261, with the annotations made by the witness, the dangerous
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And regarding the criminal
5 investigation, which is a 65 ter document, number 739, I would also
6 like -- well, maybe I can first offer it for translation, and get a
7 provisional marking. We only have a B/C/S version. I'm told that an
8 English version also exists, so could I please get a number for this
9 document, please.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please ensure that we have the English
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map marked by the witness will
13 become Exhibit D22, and the document 65 ter number 00739 will become
14 Exhibit D23.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence.
16 Thank you for giving it. And you may now leave.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next up, Ms. Marcus, I believe?
19 MS. MARCUS: The Prosecution calls Witness 62.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS W-62
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and you may begin, Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.
3 May I request the court officer to show the witness a pseudonym
4 sheet, as this witness is protected.
5 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
6 Q. Mr. Witness, can you please confirm for us that your name is as it
7 appears on that sheet?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. May I request that it be shown to the
10 Defence and to Your Honours. May I request that this pseudonym sheet be
11 entered into evidence under seal, please.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P98, Your Honours.
14 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
15 Q. Good day, Mr. Witness.
16 A. Good day to you, too.
17 Q. Could you kindly tell the Court your date of birth, please.
21 Q. How long have you lived in Sarajevo?
22 A. All my life.
23 Q. What is your training and education in?
24 A. I went to secondary school for traffic.
1 A. I work for an Italian company.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, how old were you when the war began?
3 A. Fourteen.
4 Q. Where were you living between August 1994 and November 1995?
5 A. In Sarajevo.
6 Q. In which part of --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can he just tell us what work he does for the
8 Italian company?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work with espresso coffee. I'm a
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
12 MS. MARCUS:
13 Q. What town were you living in at that time, between August 1994 and
14 November 1995?
15 A. Novi Grad.
16 Q. Between those dates - again, August 1994 and November 1995 - with
17 whom were you living?
18 A. With my mother and sister.
19 Q. How did you get access to food?
20 A. It was difficult.
21 Q. Can you explain?
22 A. There was a war on. Sarajevo was surrounded. It was difficult to
23 get any food aside from the humanitarian aid that kept arriving.
24 Q. And who was responsible for feeding your family?
25 A. I, for the most part.
1 Q. How did you get water?
2 A. That was difficult, too.
3 Q. Did you go out of your house to get food and water?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And how was that?
6 A. Water came in special water tankers and food came in shipments of
7 humanitarian aid which would then be distributed.
8 Q. Was it easy to go out and get food and water?
9 A. No, not really.
10 Q. Why was that, please?
11 A. Shellings were quite frequent and sniping, too. It wasn't really
12 that easy.
13 Q. Between August 1994 and November 1995, what did you and the other
14 civilians do to avoid snipers?
15 A. Mostly we ran.
16 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to ask the
17 witness questions relating to scheduled sniping incident number 2.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, how did the morning of the 24th of October, 1994,
19 begin for you, please?
20 A. It was dreadful.
21 Q. Let's start at the beginning. What was the first thing that
22 happened that morning, please?
23 A. My best friend was killed that morning.
24 Q. Okay. Can you take us to the beginning of the morning and tell
25 us, step by step, what happened.
1 A. It was his birthday, as a matter of fact. We were supposed to
2 celebrate his birthday, but he was off with his mother to see some
3 relatives. I was supposed to go. So we agreed that we would celebrate
4 his birthday the night before, on the evening of the 23rd. We were in his
5 flat; we were having fun, listening to the radio. We were off to bed.
6 And the next morning, at about 6 in the morning, we were outside the
7 building and we went to a department store that was part of our building.
8 It was called Vemeks.
9 Q. I just want to interrupt you. Slow down a bit please, for us.
10 We'll take it step by step. Let's go over what you've just told us.
11 First of all, can you please tell the Court the first name of your
12 friend you're referring to, whose birthday you celebrated the night before
13 the incident?
14 A. Adnan. His name was Adnan.
15 Q. Okay. And you said you were celebrating through the night, and at
16 6.00 in the morning you went out; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And when you left your house at 6.00 a.m., where did you
19 go, please?
20 A. As I pointed out, there was a small department store that was part
21 of our building. It was called Vemeks.
22 Q. And how far, approximately, from your house was the Vemeks store?
23 A. In normal circumstances, the distance ran into about 40 metres,
24 but this was wartime and we had special passages we used behind the
25 building, so it would have taken us about 5 minutes.
1 Q. How long did you stay out, please?
2 A. Between 10 and 15 minutes at the most. Not long.
3 Q. And why was your destination the Vemeks department store?
4 A. Our whole building, all the people who lived there, would use that
5 place to get out. It was considered a safe passage out of the building,
6 so to speak.
7 Q. So after you stayed out for about 10 or 15 minutes, then where did
8 you go?
9 A. We went back to my flat.
10 Q. And then how long did you remain in your flat?
11 A. We remained for a while. I think we even had breakfast. And then
12 we were off again.
13 Q. Where did you head out to this time?
14 A. Again through Vemeks, and then on to the flat.
15 Q. Okay. When you left the house -- your apartment the second time,
16 you were heading towards Vemeks. Did you actually go to the Vemeks
17 department store?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you stop to speak to anybody on your way there?
20 A. When we came to Vemeks, we saw a friend of ours, a girl who was
21 born on that same day, and we approached her to congratulate her.
22 Q. At this point when you were speaking with your friend, how many of
23 you were there?
24 A. Four of us.
25 Q. Could you please tell us who those four were?
1 A. Adnan, this girl called Natasa, Ermin and myself.
2 Q. Who was Ermin?
3 A. Ermin was a mutual friend.
4 Q. How long did the four of you stand talking with Natasa?
5 A. About two or three minutes, the time it takes to say, "Happy
7 Q. And what happened next?
8 A. Ermin, Adnan and I were off to Vemeks.
9 Q. Can you possibly describe for the Court, please, the Vemeks
10 department store. What's on its left, what's on its right, how does it
12 A. Looking at the department store, to the left there was the main
13 street and to the right there was the entrance, just outside of the
14 building, some sort of a passage, that was actually part of the building.
15 Q. So the three of you were walking away from Natasa's house and
16 towards the Vemeks department store; is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And in what sequence were you walking, please?
19 A. Ermin walked ahead of us and then Adnan and then I.
20 Q. How far did you get, please?
21 A. As far as the passage.
22 Q. And what happened?
23 A. Ermin came to the wall. He stepped over the wall. There's a low
24 wall that you need to step over. So Adnan was just about to do that and
25 at this moment I heard a shot.
1 Q. How far were you, approximately, from the passageway when you
2 heard the shot?
3 A. About 10 metres, up to 10 metres.
4 Q. What did you do when you heard the shot?
5 A. We started to panic and run, Ermin and I. We didn't know what was
6 going on. All I heard at the time was a scream, someone calling my name.
7 I turned around and I saw Adnan standing there, his face pale.
8 Q. What did you do?
9 A. I turned around to face him. I grabbed hold of him, not knowing
10 at the time what had happened. I pulled him closer to me and started
11 pulling him towards Vemeks. I realised at this point in time that Adnan
12 had been hit.
13 Q. What happened next?
14 A. I saw a friend of mine, called Fahrudin. I called him over to
15 give us a hand, since I realised that Adnan had been hit. Fahrudin came
16 with a bandage. We took off the top of the tracksuit that Adnan was
17 wearing, and we realised there was a bullet hole on his shirt.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, to clarify, did you hear one shot or two shots?
19 A. I heard one when Adnan was hit; however, when I started pulling
20 Adnan towards Vemeks, I heard another shot.
21 Q. Thank you. So you were with your friend Fahrudin and you took off
22 Adnan's jacket; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And what did you notice about Adnan?
25 A. We realised there was a hole in his chest, the right half of his
1 chest. We realised he had been hit. We took off his shirt. He was naked
2 down to the waist at this point. Fahrudin turned his body around, and we
3 realised that there was an exit wound on the left-hand side of his lungs.
4 Q. Could you please indicate for the Court, on yourself, where the
5 entry wound was on Adnan.
6 A. Right here.
7 Q. And where the exit wound was.
8 A. The other side of the shoulder blade.
9 MS. MARCUS: Could the record indicate that the witness has shown
10 the entry wound on the front right shoulder and the exit wound on the back
11 left shoulder.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MS. MARCUS:
14 Q. Did Adnan make any sound?
15 A. No. He tried to draw breath but it came out more as a gurgle. He
16 wasn't really able to breathe.
17 Q. And how did he look?
18 A. He was in a dreadful state. He was white, pale.
19 Q. What did you do next?
20 A. We placed this bandage on him. In the meantime a vehicle had
21 arrived from somewhere, some sort of a makeshift vehicle, to take him
22 away. Other people gathered. We placed Adnan in a car and then they were
23 off to the Dobrinja hospital.
24 Q. Can you describe this vehicle for us? Was this an ambulance or a
25 private vehicle? What kind of vehicle was it?
1 A. No, it was not an ambulance. It was a civilian vehicle, some sort
2 of a delivery vehicle.
3 Q. Did you have access to emergency vehicles?
4 A. Not really.
5 Q. Can you explain why not?
6 A. There was a lot of sniping around my area. It simply wasn't
7 possible for them to even go there when called. There was the hospital at
8 Dobrinja, which was sort of close, so that's where one took people,
9 generally speaking.
10 Q. Did you go with Adnan in the ambulance, in the private vehicle
11 that you were using as an ambulance?
12 A. No. It was Fahrudin who went.
13 Q. Where was Ermin during this time?
14 A. Frankly, I don't know. I was in a state of shock. I didn't see a
15 thing. I didn't see him leave, or where he left.
16 Q. When the vehicle left with Adnan, where did you go?
17 A. I stayed at Vemeks.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, did Adnan survive this sniping incident?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When did you find out that Adnan had died?
21 A. About half an hour later, when Fahrudin returned.
22 Q. What did Fahrudin tell you, exactly?
23 A. He said that Adnan died on the way to the hospital.
24 Q. How old was Adnan on that day, the 24th of October, 1994?
25 A. Fourteen.
1 Q. That was his birthday, wasn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, was there any military-related facility of any kind
4 in the area where that incident took place?
5 A. Some way off from the place where the incident occurred there was
6 a dormitory, some 50 metres away.
7 Q. And can you describe the dormitory? Was it an official military
8 facility, or what precisely was it?
9 A. No. This was not an official military installation. It was more
10 like a privately-owned flat where the military stayed during the war.
11 Q. Did the soldiers use the passageway next to Vemeks to go in and
12 out of that small dormitory?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were there -- was there any military activity in that area of any
15 kind on the 24th of October, 1994?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see any ABiH soldiers at all at that location on that day?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could you please describe for the Court how you were dressed on
20 that day.
21 A. I was dressed in a tracksuit, which means sports clothing.
22 Q. What was Ermin wearing on that day?
23 A. Ermin had blue jeans on and a T-shirt.
24 Q. And what was Adnan wearing on that day?
25 A. Also a tracksuit like me.
1 Q. What was the weather like on that date, please?
2 A. It was a pretty nice day.
3 Q. Before the 24th of October, 1994, was that passageway next to
4 Vemeks known to be a very dangerous location?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What about after Adnan was shot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you and the other residents of that block do anything to
9 protect yourselves from being shot at that passageway?
10 A. Yes. We put a blanket. We put it -- a kind of hanging blanket.
11 Q. And did the blanket assist you in protecting yourselves from being
13 A. For a couple of days.
14 Q. And then?
15 A. Since there was a lot of shooting, the blanket was torn in
16 ribbons, just -- there were just remains of it there.
17 Q. Mr. Witness, just to go back one moment to the clothing you were
18 wearing on that day. Can you tell us, if you recall, the colour of the
19 tracksuit that you were wearing on that day?
20 A. I think it was blue.
21 Q. Do you recall the colour of Ermin's clothing on that day?
22 A. I think that Ermin's T-shirt was black.
23 Q. And what about Adnan's clothing? The colour, please?
24 A. Greyish black or grey with some black pattern.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, did you meet with Prosecution
1 investigators in the summer of 2006?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And on that date, did you indicate on camera where the shot which
4 killed Adnan came from?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, as this witness is
7 protected, may I request we move into private session simply for the
8 showing of the video where he himself appears.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Witness, do you confirm today the information that you
6 provided to the ICTY investigator, as we have seen in this video clip?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you provide that information to the investigator of your own
9 free will?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you please tell the Court anything about any differences
12 between how this area looked on the day of the incident and how it looked
13 on this video.
14 A. Yes. There's one difference. The trees have grown and are full
15 of leaves.
16 Q. The blanket that you mentioned earlier, was that blanket put up to
17 block the passageway before Adnan was shot or after Adnan's incident?
18 A. It was put up afterwards.
19 Q. At the end of the video clip we just watched, a building was
20 zoomed in on. Can you identify for the Court what that building was?
21 A. That's the centre for blind children and children with impaired
23 Q. And what was the area of town called where the school for the
24 blind was located?
25 A. Nedzarici.
1 Q. To your knowledge, who was in control of the area known as
3 A. The army of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. Was there anything obstructing the view from Nedzarici, where you
5 say the shots came from, to where your friend was standing, where you and
6 your friend were standing?
7 A. No.
8 MS. MARCUS: I'd now like to ask the court officer, please, to
9 pull up a photograph of the location where Adnan was killed. It's 65 ter
10 number 2862.
11 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, but I don't have that image in e-court.
12 MS. MARCUS: May I have one moment, please, to confer with the
13 case manager.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry, I'm informed by the case manager that it
16 is there and that she's released it. No? You don't have it?
17 Mr. President, Your Honours, the reason that we wanted to have the
18 one that was submitted in e-court is so that the witness could actually
19 mark some locations on it. We do have the same photograph as part of the
20 DVD, with the 360-photograph, so we could show him that one but it will --
21 he won't be able to mark it.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's do that, then.
23 MS. MARCUS: Okay. So I request the case manager to please pull
24 that up.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, can you see an aerial view of the location of that
1 incident on the 24th of October, 1994?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you please tell us what is identified by the three red circles
4 that we see?
5 A. This passage is marked with these circles.
6 Q. Can you tell us which side of the passageway is marked with those
7 circles? Is it the side from which the shots came from or the side where
8 you and Adnan were standing when Adnan was shot?
9 A. That's where the bullet came from.
10 Q. I'd like you --
11 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, Court Officer, is it possible for the witness
12 to use any kind of implement to indicate -- no, it's not. Okay.
13 Q. Could you describe on the picture where the school of the blind
14 is, if possible, with words.
15 A. There are two larger buildings down there and two smaller ones in
16 between them. One has a dark red roof; the other one is grey, in the
17 bottom left corner. So this is the centre for the blind.
18 Q. Would you say that this photograph is a true and accurate
19 representation of the origin of fire and the place of the shooting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. MARCUS: May I now request the case manager to show the DVD,
23 which has the 360-degree photograph of the location. Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm going to ask the case manager to rotate the
25 photograph slowly to the right, and as she does that, would you please
1 stop us when you see the Vemeks department store.
2 A. All right.
3 MS. MARCUS: Case Manager, I'd request you to pause, please, when
4 the witness reaches that.
5 Q. Okay, please start.
6 A. You can stop now.
7 Q. Is this the Vemeks department store?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Now I'll request the case manager to continue, and please pause us
10 when we reach the passageway from which the shots came.
11 A. You can stop here.
12 Q. If we can please just continue the rotation to complete the 360
13 degrees. Thank you.
14 Mr. Witness, would you say that this photograph is a true and
15 accurate representation of the location where Adnan was shot on the 24th
16 of October, 1994?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How, if at all, does this --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence finds it
21 difficult to understand -- well, I completely agree with these -- I'm
22 impressed by these technical miracles that allow us to have a 360-degree
23 view, but would it be possible to locate specifically the point around
24 which we are rotating? What is the central point? During my
25 cross-examination, I might be able to come to that, but perhaps it would
1 be more practical to know exactly what is the central point, because we
2 saw earlier a recording or a video from an aerial view. But frankly, I
3 can't really locate exactly where we are, whether it's on one side or the
4 other of the building.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you able to identify the central point, Ms.
7 MS. MARCUS: Just to clarify, when you say "central point," are
8 you referring to the actual spot of the shooting or are you referring --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean, that if it's a circle, it must
11 have a center?
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I imagine that this
13 recording is helping us to imagine that we are on site. It's as if we
14 were on site and we were turning around to see everything that is around
15 us. But we need to know where we are. Where are we standing? What is
16 the point -- well, let's say if I were there, I would be standing to have
17 this 360-degree view, to see all that we can see on the screen - I hope
18 this is clear enough - to know exactly where I would be standing in
19 relation to which we see something. Perhaps if we could look at the map
20 of Nedzarici, one could show us that this is where you're standing and
21 this is all you can see as you look around, around this axis. So it's the
22 viewpoint of the person of -- where is the person standing?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The person taking the photograph, are we able to
24 identify that point?
25 MS. MARCUS: Yes, thank you, I've understood.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, when you saw that 360-degree photograph, can you
2 please identify for the Court from what spot was that photograph taken?
3 A. As far as I can see, the person who shot this photograph was
4 standing two to two and a half metres from the spot where Adnan was
6 Q. And is that two to two and a half metres away from the passageway
7 or two to two and a half metres closer to the passageway?
8 A. Towards the wall.
9 MS. MARCUS: Does that answer the learned counsel's request?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if she has other points, she can raise them
11 in her cross-examination.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you very much, Mr. President. May I request
13 that this portion of the DVD with this 360-degree photograph be entered
14 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P99, Your Honours.
17 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, just a few last questions. Could you tell the Court
19 a little bit about your friendship with Adnan.
20 A. We were very close. We were like brothers. We slept in each
21 other's flats. His mother was like my mother, and vice versa. That was
22 something -- we grew up together.
23 Q. Did you attend Adnan's funeral?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And can you describe for the Court how Adnan's death has affected
1 your life.
2 A. It was horrible. Horrible.
3 MS. MARCUS: No further questions, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness W-62, you clearly went
6 through an extremely painful experience, and of course the Trial Chamber
7 feels a great deal of compassion, but our concern is to establish the
8 truth, the truth of the facts, the incident, and also to determine
9 liability, to identify the author or authors in order to establish their
10 responsibility or liability. That is why I would like to ask you a few
12 You spoke of a military dormitory or soldiers in the vicinity.
13 Unfortunately, we don't see the picture anymore on the screen. Perhaps we
14 might come back to it. Perhaps it would be good to see exactly where the
15 dormitory was, where soldiers slept in the vicinity. Well, nevermind,
16 since there's no image anymore on the screen.
17 I'll come to my second question, which is more important in my
18 mind. You said that the shots were coming from the passage or the
19 building located at the end of the passageway, and that in that building
20 there was the centre for blind children. And this was in a place under
21 the control of the Republika Srpska forces. How can you know that the
22 shots were coming from there? Did you have any means, I don't know, any
23 practical means? I know you're not an expert in this field. But how do
24 you know that the shots came from that direction?
25 And my further question would be: Across from this school for
1 blind children, were there not other buildings from which the shots could
2 have originated? And in that case, if there were such buildings, by whom
3 were they controlled?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here's how it was: If you
5 were to pass by this passageway, you can see the school for the blind
6 children through the passage, where holes were made in order to shoot
7 through them. So everyone living in the neighbourhood could see that.
8 So the second question was about the buildings between the
9 passageway and the place of incident. There were garages there, but they
10 were not high enough to obstruct the view.
11 And I think there was a question about who controlled the area.
12 It was under the control of the army of BH. I'm talking about these
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The garage below the centre for
15 blind children; is that what you mean?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were between the
17 passageway. If we can have the photograph back again, you can see sort of
18 two grey squares.
19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I have actually a hard copy of the
20 photograph. Will that help, to be pointed to on the ELMO?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the garages that I mentioned, one
23 is here and the other one is here.
24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just ask you, where were the holes made in
1 this school? At what level?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I cannot show it to
3 you. They were at the front of the building, closer to the top of the
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the building would have had how many floors;
6 do you know?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe there were three floors.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And these holes were at the top, the top-most
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the floor and the roof, at
11 the very top of the building.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.
13 We have to take the break now.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Ms. Isailovic.
17 Ms. Marcus.
18 MS. MARCUS: Excuse me, Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm told now
19 that the photograph that was not markable before has now been loaded in
20 and can be marked by the witness.
21 With your permission, I'd just ask him to mark three spots on the
22 photograph and that's it.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 MS. MARCUS: May I request the court officer to please pull that
25 up. Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, can you hear me?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you please mark, with that pen that you've been given, on
4 this photograph the location of the garages that you were referring to
5 earlier. And could you mark it with a G for garage, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. Could you also please mark for the Court the area of
8 town that you referred to as Nedzarici.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. And lastly, could you please mark for the Court the
11 building that you referred to as the school for the blind. You could mark
12 it with an S for "slijepi," S for blind in B/C/S.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you very much.
15 A. You're welcome.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I put an additional question to the witness,
17 just an extension of the video that was offered by the Prosecution,
18 because I have -- I do not have a full understanding of what we saw on the
20 Now, if you suggest, Mr. Witness, that the shots came from the
21 school of the blind, then my question would be that, on the video it
22 looked as if the bullets went through the passageway and hit someone who
23 was on the other side of the building. So that means that if the shots
24 came from the location S shown on the picture on the e-court, towards the
25 direction where the three red spots are, then my question is: Is that the
1 entrance of the tunnel shown by the three red spots, and so that the
2 incident occurred on the other side of the building? Is that what can be
3 deferred from this picture? Do you understand my question, Mr. Witness?
4 I'm sorry, it was perhaps a bit awkwardly put to you, but I hope you're
5 getting the gist of what I'm asking for.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand the question.
7 This is the entrance of the passageway, and the incident occurred at the
8 other end, at the other end.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: At the other side of the building that can be seen
10 here, the tall white building?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right. Past the
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just for clarification, Mr. Witness. I'm sorry.
15 If the three red circles on the picture shown in the middle of -- a bit
16 above the middle of the picture, if that marks the entrance of the
17 passageway, then your suggestion is that the shots were fired from the
18 school of the blind upwards towards the entrance of the passageway,
19 through the passageway, and then hit Adnan on the other side of the
20 passageway, which we cannot see here because it's on the other side of the
21 building. Is that correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.
24 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm sorry. May I move
25 to admit this marked photograph?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P100, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I'm Branislava Isailovic,
7 a member of the bar in Paris, and I represent the Defence of Dragomir
8 Milosevic, the accused in this case.
9 I'm going to ask you a few questions concerning your witness
10 statements, the statements you made for the Prosecution and also today
11 before this Trial Chamber.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to start
13 out with the same picture, the picture used by the trial attorney, but
14 could we see this same picture without any annotations, a virgin copy. It
15 has been explained to me that -- it is number, I think -- the same
16 picture, the picture we already see on the screen, but might it -- perhaps
17 my learned colleagues could help me with the 65 ter number. I don't have
18 it on hand.
19 MS. MARCUS: I believe the 65 ter number is 2862.
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. So, Witness, here we have the same picture as we did earlier, and
22 what I'm interested in -- in fact, earlier I also was interested in the
23 exact location of the garage or garages, but what I'm particularly
24 interested in is whether you know what these objects are, these objects or
25 facilities between what you showed us as the school for the blind and the
1 alleged point of impact, the entrance of the passageway. There is what
2 seems to be some construction, some facilities. Could you tell us exactly
3 what it is, what these are, and to annotate the picture as you did
4 earlier; for example, the building that is nearest to the centre for the
5 blind, and so on and so forth.
6 A. There's one thing I would like to say first. This photograph was
7 taken perhaps a year ago. Some of the buildings were added. When the
8 incident occurred, most of these buildings were not there.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So then my question is the following: Which of the objects that
12 you see on the -- well, between the centre for the blind and the entrance
13 to the passageway, which of those buildings already were on site at the
14 time of the incident?
15 A. Should I mark these for you?
16 Q. Yes, please.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Now, could you tell me, the first building nearest to the centre
19 for the blind, could you tell us exactly what that building was?
20 A. The square or the market.
21 Q. Is that a high building, rather high, or not?
22 A. No. A low one. Those were boxes.
23 Q. And the second building as you come closer to the passageway?
24 A. You mean the X in the middle?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. That's a garage.
2 Q. Are those garages of the same type as those that are closer to
3 your building, in other words, closer to the alleyway?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that this picture
7 be marked, the picture that has been annotated by the witness.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as Exhibit
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It has been explained to me that I
12 should proceed as follows: If I would like to explore a video sequence or
13 the 360-degree pictures tendered by the Prosecution, I must ask for their
14 assistance in order to have it called up on the screen. So I would ask
15 you, please, to call up the video sequence, and afterwards, I would like
16 to discuss it with the witness.
17 That isn't the video clip. It should be number 65 ter 27117
18 showing the investigator.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
20 MS. MARCUS: May I just request, then, that we move into private
21 session to protect the identity of the witness.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 906-907 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know, since you lived in the neighbourhood - perhaps you
9 even had friends who lived there - above the alleyway there was an
10 apartment that was about what size, approximately?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding due to interpretation.
13 I asked you if there was an apartment, but approximately what size, what
14 surface area? Was it the size of one apartment? Were there two
15 apartments? Is it a big apartment?
16 A. The answer is yes, it was as big as a flat, which means the
17 passageway's as long as the building is wide. The building has flats on
18 both sides, if you see what I'm trying to say. The area was in terms of
19 square metres. The passageway or the flat above it is really not
20 something that I can specify.
21 Q. Just a detail, because you just said on both sides, so do I
22 understand you correctly that there were "urezi", as we call them, on both
23 sides, there were entrances on both sides?
24 A. I'm sorry, entrance? What sort of entrance? To what, exactly?
25 Q. I was thinking of what we call "haustor".
1 A. It only has one entrance on one of the sides.
2 Q. So if I understand you correctly, they were only on the side -- on
3 the side where you were during the incident, there is an entrance or
4 entrances to the building?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in the video you stopped for a moment, or you held the
7 position in which your unfortunate friend was when he was mortally hit by
8 the shot. Is it true that his right shoulder was turned towards the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the alleyway was, therefore, on your right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When the trial attorney asked you questions earlier about the
14 wounds, the exit and the entry points of the bullet, I think you said that
15 the bullet entered on the right-hand side, entered straight but not on the
16 right-hand side?
17 A. The wound was on the right side, the entry wound, on the right.
18 Nearly the same.
19 Q. This may seem to be an unfortunate question, but, well, we have
20 to -- well, the issue here is the guilt of a person so I have to insist.
21 But did the bullet enter from the front or from the side?
22 A. These questions are causing quite a bit of stress; that's true.
23 The bullet entered from the front right side, from the front, on the
24 right, if you look at the direction we were headed.
25 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions regarding
1 the content of your testimony today and your witness statements of
2 November 15th, 1995, and May 22nd, 2006.
3 First of all, you say that at the time you were 16 years old, not
4 older than that.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So I suppose that at that age you were considered to be a young
7 boy, an adolescent rather than an adult.
8 A. Frankly, I'm at a loss as to what to answer. I was the man in the
9 house, as they say where I come from. I had my mother and my sister to
10 look after. It was a commitment that I had as a male, the only male in
11 the house. Frankly, I didn't really like it very much when others viewed
12 me as a small boy, a child.
13 Q. Yes, I understand quite well. That was the feeling that you had,
14 the way you saw yourself, and that's quite understandable. But, in fact,
15 my question -- well, let me explain more clearly.
16 I think it is fair to say that perhaps you were not explained
17 everything in detail with regard to all that was going on in your
18 neighbourhood, for example, the soldiers that you mentioned earlier.
19 Perhaps you were not told extensively what they did at the time, and you
20 did not take part in what they did.
21 A. Of course I was too young to be involved in any form of military
22 activity. But we did know everything about what was going on.
23 Q. And what was going on was that there were many soldiers in that
24 area, the area where your building was located.
25 A. The soldiers were a little bit downwards.
1 Q. You know, however, that the confrontation lines were quite nearby,
2 the confrontation lines between the two warring parties.
3 A. Which specific point do you have in mind?
4 Q. I'm thinking about Nedzaric.
5 A. Here there was a confrontation line close to the building.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would request that another
8 map be called up on the screen, another map that we have in our atlas,
9 number -- 65 ter number 002829. May I ask the registrar to call that up
10 because we don't have it in our documents.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The registrar will find it.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Can we
13 rotate it and enlarge it a bit, if possible. Enlarge the section -- yes.
14 Q. Witness, can you see in front of you Nedzarici on the map?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. This is a map that was drawn up by the UNPROFOR that depicts the
17 confrontation lines between the warring factions; the BiH army on the one
18 hand and the Republika Srpska army on the other. Can you see this line --
19 these two lines surrounding Nedzarici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. According to UNPROFOR, part of Nedzarici - in fact you lived in
22 Nedzarici - but part of Nedzarici was within the control of the army of
23 the Republika Srpska but completely surrounded by units of the BiH army.
24 That is reflected by the yellow line.
25 So my question is as follows: According to the UNPROFOR, there
1 were military facilities around and within the yellow line, near the
2 yellow line, because that line was the confrontation line. Would you
3 agree with me in saying that the neighbourhood in which you lived was very
4 near those two lines?
5 A. I wasn't living in Nedzarici, although maybe that's a lesser
6 point. This is a rather bad map and I can only say approximately where my
7 neighbourhood was, but I cannot say it with 100 per cent surety.
8 Q. Can you tell us, well, with perhaps less certainty, exactly where
9 was located your building? Approximately where was located your building?
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we give the witness a pen so
11 he can show us on the map.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the building should approximately
13 be in front of this yellow line here. Not completely.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is it the same building where the passage or the alleyway was
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. And does this map make it possible for you to indicate the
19 location of the centre for blind children?
20 A. It's very difficult.
21 Q. But am I correct in saying that it should be rather close by?
22 A. Yes, it was close.
23 Q. Earlier you mentioned the holes in that building, the centre for
24 the blind. Do you remember mentioning that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you see those holes yourself? And when?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when did you see them?
4 A. They were there throughout the whole war.
5 Q. Did you see them with your own eyes, or were these -- was this
6 hearsay, things that you heard, that you heard the soldiers talking about?
7 A. I saw them with my own eyes.
8 Q. Could you tell us approximately where those apertures were in that
10 A. Here?
11 Q. No, no, not at all. Since you are an eyewitness, I would ask you
12 to describe them, because we've heard a great deal about this house.
13 Perhaps you could describe this house, this building, and tell us where it
14 was located at the time, and where those apertures were located that you
15 saw with your own eyes.
16 A. The hole -- the wall where the holes were can clearly be seen in
17 the video that was played with the reconstruction in which I took place.
18 So when you look at this building there's a wall, and beneath the roof
19 there were holes.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to see that again. Sorry, I'll take
21 account of that in estimating your time. Can we see that video again so I
22 can see those holes?
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I was also going to suggest that,
24 but perhaps before that, since the witness has indicated his building, we
25 could keep this as evidence, we could tender it as evidence, and have a
1 number for this map.
2 Q. Perhaps annotate it slightly with an X, for example. We see a
3 straight line. Could you perhaps put an X or a star.
4 A. Are you referring to my building? [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit D25, Your
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 Can we then have the video.
10 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, may I again request
11 private session for this.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 915-916 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And when you said "dormitory," were you thinking of a place where
13 the soldiers would sleep or where they would walk around, would come in
14 and go out?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry to interrupt. We're in open session, Your
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a privately-owned flat
18 where the soldiers were billeted.
19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And how did you know that, if it was a private apartment?
21 A. It was common knowledge.
22 Q. Could it perhaps be because you saw the soldiers entering that
23 apartment and exiting it? Is that perhaps why it was known?
24 A. It was generally known. Not that I didn't see them. I did see a
25 couple of them. But everybody knew that they were sleeping there.
1 Q. Witness, in your statement, the second statement that you made on
2 the 22nd of May, 2006, for the Prosecution - I don't know if it's really
3 necessary to pull it up on the screen; perhaps if you remember it, we can
4 just move ahead - you mention a person named Fahrudin, a friend of yours,
5 and then soldiers. And in that statement -- perhaps it would be easier if
6 it was called up on the screen, in order to refresh your memory, to make
7 things easier for you.
8 My assistant will call it up. Well, there are two versions, so
9 we'll take a moment. The fourth page, paragraph 17. We also have it in
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We see it -- we don't see it on
12 the screen. Does anyone see it on the screen?
13 Q. Witness, do you see paragraph 17?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So for the interpreters, it is paragraph 17. I will read it in
17 "When I was tending Adnan with Fahrudin at the department store, I
18 recall some soldiers coming with a stretcher and putting bandages on
19 Adnan. Adnan was trying to breathe but could not, and the soldiers tried
20 to put a lot of bandages over his wounds to close them. I know these
21 persons were soldiers because they were carrying rifles. They were all
22 wearing uniforms."
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's a problem there. In the English, it
24 says "They were not wearing uniforms."
25 Can you just read the B/C/S and let it be translated, for that
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In the statement that I have, it
3 is: "I know that these people were soldiers because they were carrying
4 rifles. They were all wearing uniforms."
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] "I know these persons were
7 soldiers --" correction. "There were a number of persons living in the
8 area who I knew as soldiers, but they did not have uniforms."
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The English translation is wrong, then. It
10 says "They were not wearing uniforms."
11 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm sorry. I'd just
12 like to point out that the procedure for taking statements is that the
13 original is the English; then the English statement is translated into
14 B/C/S. So if there was a translation problem, it was in that direction.
15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, do you see English fluently?
17 A. A little.
18 Q. Did you make your statement in English?
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe we can clarify, because if you read on,
21 further lines down in that paragraph, paragraph number 17, you can see
22 that the English text reads that "there were a number of persons living in
23 the area who I knew as soldiers, but they did not have uniforms." So the
24 same suggestion is made twice in that paragraph, that the persons were not
25 wearing uniforms. So maybe it is the B/C/S translation which is wrong.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, is there a special uniform
2 for the Territorial Defence? Because in the last sentence of paragraph
3 17, in English, it is said, [In English] "They were something like the
4 Territorial Defence."
5 [Interpretation] How would you explain that? What does that mean
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were no special uniforms. Each
8 of these men would put on themselves whatever they had. Some had
9 camouflage vests; some had trousers. I don't know. That's how it was.
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Well, then, I will ask you again the question, regardless of what
12 is written in the statement. It seems very odd to me that you would make
13 a statement in English, since your language is B/C/S. But let me come
14 back to the facts. At that time, those people who came to give you help,
15 were they dressed as you just described to Judge Mindua?
16 A. As far as I can remember, some were; some were not. Some were in
17 civilian clothes; some of them only had a vest. I was in a state of shock
18 and I didn't have either time or will to look closely at how everybody was
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, how much longer will you be?
21 Because we are beyond the time when we should adjourn. We are now
22 encroaching on the other Trial Chamber's trial time.
23 Ms. Marcus, you'll be re-examining?
24 MS. MARCUS: Yes, very briefly, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in view of the fact that we are beyond the
1 time when we should adjourn, I think we must break now.
2 So we'll adjourn, and, regrettably, you'll have to return tomorrow
3 at 9.00 a.m.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
6 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.