Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1189

1 Tuesday, 30 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, you are to continue with your

7 examination.

8 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.

9 Before I do so, I just want to request if possible that the witness

10 statements for Witness number 36 be given exhibit numbers.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those witness statements, document

13 ID number DD00-0362 and 0363 will be admitted as Exhibits P117 and P118

14 respectively.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]

18 Q. Madam Witness, good afternoon.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. I just have very few more questions for you today.

21 First, I'd like to ask you, do you recall if the tram stopped when

22 it was fired upon, or did it keep going after you were shot?

23 A. It kept going. Further down the street it turned around and

24 stopped behind a building. It was a sheltered place, so those of us who

25 had been wounded could get off the tram.

Page 1190

1 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to request the case manager now to show the

2 360-degree photograph of the location.

3 Q. Madam Witness, we're going to see a photograph now, and I'm going

4 ask you, please, to stop us when we reach the location from which the

5 shots were fired.

6 A. Stop.

7 Q. Thank you. And now I'll ask the case manager, please, to continue

8 to complete the circle. Thank you.

9 Madam Witness, is this a true and accurate representation of the

10 location where you were on the tram when you were shot?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'd like, please, to tender this particular 360-degree photograph

13 into evidence.


15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P119, Your Honours.


17 Q. Can you tell the Court if you have any lasting medical

18 consequences to your injury?

19 A. Yes, I do. I have an 80 per cent handicap. My hand is not mobile

20 enough. I can't drive a car. I can't write properly, and I have

21 difficulty eating. Since I'm right-handed, I have trouble eating, feeding

22 myself.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MS. MARCUS: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

Page 1191

1 Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Could

3 we please have that image back, the last picture that was shown and

4 tendered.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, I would like to ask you something

7 based on the statements that you provided to the Tribunal's investigators

8 and a number of other documents as well. First of all, though, I would

9 like to ask you to show me exactly what the distance was between the tram

10 and the traffic light where the shadow falls, as it were. Where exactly

11 was the tram? Was it rather close to the traffic light? Or perhaps you

12 should tell us what the distance was.

13 A. It was roughly in the same area. I can't specify in terms of

14 metres.

15 Q. Right next to the traffic light then; right?

16 A. Yes. There's the shadow and there's the tracks.

17 Q. Can you show me where the Metalka building lies since allegations

18 have been made that the shots had been fired from over there?

19 A. It's over there. Maybe I even saw a part of roof.

20 Q. Where exactly?

21 A. There. Right there.

22 Q. In relation to this building across the way from the traffic

23 lights you mean?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus is on her feet.

Page 1192

1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours. I have three copies, hard copies,

2 of this exact photograph. If it would assist the Court, perhaps we could

3 enter one unmarked, and then I don't know if the witness is able or

4 comfortable to mark, but it might be of assistance.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it may be of assistance.

6 I'm to say that the e-court problems that we have experienced,

7 that we experienced yesterday, I'm informed are resolvable and will be

8 resolved, particularly after tomorrow when the -- there's a meeting

9 between the court deputy and the parties.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, something

11 about the meeting. We would be glad to have the meeting any time after

12 trial. Today perhaps. However, it would be very difficult for us to

13 manage 11.00 in the morning. You must understand that we are doing a lot

14 of work to prepare for our cross-examinations. It would be very difficult

15 to manage 11.00 in the morning. Right after our trial anytime.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We've been advised that the court deputy

17 will make a separate arrangement with your team, Mr. Tapuskovic. So you

18 need not be worried.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't have anything

20 on my screen right now.

21 Q. All right. The tram was near the traffic light. I'm not asking

22 you to be dead accurate. Can you, please, show me how one can see the

23 Metalka building from this position. The Metalka building is behind these

24 buildings; right?

25 A. Yes, the Metalka is right there after this passage.

Page 1193

1 Q. Quite far behind; right?

2 A. Yes. The Metalka building is not that far behind.

3 Q. I wanted to ask you when things were going in a circle here, you

4 saw those two skyscrapers; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The two skyscrapers are on the side where the BH army was?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The two tallest ones?

9 A. You go behind -- across the river and the river was the

10 borderline.

11 Q. The two tallest skyscrapers are in the Serbian territory?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the speakers are constantly

13 overlapping. It is impossible to interpret. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that? The interpreters complain

15 that you are both overlapping and that often happens when you speak the

16 same language. So you must observe a pause between question and answer.

17 That applies to both Mr. Tapuskovic and the witness.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. What I mean is the two really tall skyscrapers, the UNIS

20 skyscrapers that were right near the tram, that was in territory

21 controlled by the BH army; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are those the two tallest skyscrapers in that particular area of

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes, but they have nothing to do with the fact that I was wounded.

Page 1194

1 Q. I won't be going into that now, but one thing I could ask you is

2 this: Did you ever notice, looking at those two tallest skyscrapers that

3 are as high as some hills, did you ever notice members of the BH army

4 firing shots at their own citizens?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were shots ever fired from those positions at positions held by

7 the army of Republika Srpska?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. You answered a number of questions by the Prosecutor

10 yesterday, and you said -- you had known immediately where you'd been shot

11 from. That was my understanding of your answer. Am I right?

12 A. Yes. I pressed my right hand against it, so that told me where

13 the bullet had come from. It had to be from the right.

14 Q. We tried to reconstruct the setting, and you tried to show us

15 which direction the bullet had come from. What about the police inspector

16 who was in charge of the investigation? Why did they not try to

17 reconstruct this event in the tram itself? You were on a tram when you

18 were hit; right?

19 A. I don't understand.

20 Q. You were hit. You were injured. I don't doubt that for a second.

21 You were on a tram.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. A reconstruction was made, but this was done on the pavement and

24 not inside a tram.

25 A. Simply because no tram could stop there. The tram continued to

Page 1195

1 drive further down the street. It took a turn, turned behind the building

2 and stopped there.

3 Q. You weren't even in the same place where you were probably hit at

4 the time, were you?

5 A. I was on a tram and that's when I was hit.

6 Q. Thank you. I will have to ask you some questions now about the

7 statement that you made on the 15th of November, 1995. The document

8 number, the 65 ter number, is 02875. This is page 1 that I'm looking at.

9 Rather, page 2. The second page. I will do my best to ask you very

10 specific questions.

11 This was on the 23rd of November, 1994; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You say, "To my right was the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica." Is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right. That was to my right.

16 Q. I believe you also said that you'd been hit from there. I think

17 that's what you testified yesterday.

18 A. I meant the neighbourhoods over there.

19 Q. But you did say yesterday that -- not right here, but yesterday

20 you said you'd been hit from the Metalka building. How come?

21 A. What I said yesterday is that I'd been hit from that direction.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus is on her feet. No doubt a

23 mischaracterisation?

24 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Yes. Thank you, Mr. President and Your

25 Honours. I do not believe that the witness identified the Metalka

Page 1196

1 building. Perhaps learned counsel can point to the page and the line in

2 the transcript from yesterday where the witness actually said that.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say she said?

4 MS. MARCUS: She said from the direction of the Jewish cemetery

5 and Grbavica.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I suggest you accept that -- accept that,

7 Mr. Tapuskovic, that you have mischaracterised the evidence. Not

8 intentionally, no doubt.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that. What you suggest

10 is entirely possible. I will have an opportunity to analyse this though

11 and I'll be glad to accept my mistake for what it is. It is certainly not

12 my intention to mislead anyone.

13 Q. Further down, paragraph four of your statement you say: "The

14 confrontation line is quite near this area. I assume about 500 metres."

15 That's paragraph 4. "I told her that she needn't worry," to your

16 sister, I suppose, "because UNPROFOR, regarding that spot, they had an

17 armoured vehicle there." Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You go on to state, "I heard no shots. I just heard people

20 screaming." Is that right?

21 A. Yes, precisely. People screaming and an impact against my

22 shoulder.

23 Q. Down towards the very last portion of your statement you say: "At

24 the hospital they told me that six persons had been injured on that tram

25 and that one person had been killed. The police told me that the bullet

Page 1197

1 that had struck me was not a direct hit but, rather, a bullet that had

2 ricochetted." Is that correct?

3 A. No, that's not correct. The police told me nothing. When I was

4 injured, we all ran down the tram. I tried to stand up and I asked my

5 sister to come and help me because my arm was hanging loose. Then we got

6 off the tram. There was a dead man there. I saw two other persons who

7 were injured, and later I found out that six of us had been injured.

8 Q. You gave this statement on the 15th of November, 1995, a mere year

9 after this tragic incident that you were a victim of. How do you explain

10 that in the light of what you're claiming now? Can you explain that to

11 the Chamber?

12 A. I gave a statement at the time, but it wasn't the police who told

13 me what to say. It was only what I had seen. It was only what I had

14 experienced.

15 Q. So you didn't say what we can read here?

16 A. No, not the way you've just read it.

17 Q. I'm not reading something that I'm making up as I go along. I'm

18 reading your own statement. Is that your statement or not?

19 A. Yes, I did give that statement.

20 Q. Thank you. I was going to ask you something about the other

21 statement. Perhaps I'll just ask you this: In the other statement you

22 make no reference at all, the 20th of November, 2006, that's 11 years

23 later, you make no reference to what you originally stated a mere year

24 after the incident. How do you explain that, what you said at the very

25 end? Is this something that somebody told you to address?

Page 1198

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. I have DD00-0376. I have no English translation of

3 this document. However, it's a document that I was given by the OTP.

4 This is an Official Note.

5 If you could please have a look, and then perhaps you could answer

6 two or three of my remaining questions, and that's about all I have. This

7 is DD00-0376.

8 Do you have that? As you can see, this is an Official Note, that

9 incident on the 23rd of November. This was compiled on the 15th of

10 December, 1994, by Kemal Buco. He's not a protected witness, is he?

11 Kemal Buco is one of our next witnesses. I'll be asking him questions

12 specifically about this, but I would like to read out a portion of this

13 Official Note just to see whether this is something that was discussed

14 with the present witness.

15 Down the middle of the page -- can you see that Official Note in

16 front of you, Witness?

17 A. You're asking me, are you?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes, I can see it.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a translation of this document?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Not that I could find.

22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm sorry. I'm told that the number

23 for the English translation, the 65 ter number is 0059. If that will

24 assist.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I hope it does.

Page 1199

1 Mr. Tapuskovic, you must come with the translation, and you know

2 that.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I got this from the

4 OTP, and I -- I thought all along that there had to be a translation. I

5 looked high and low. My translations will only start to trickle in

6 slowly. I have submitted a number of documents, a huge number of

7 documents for translation. I'm not sure if those will ever see the light

8 of day even until the end of this trial. Perhaps we will have a chance to

9 review those later on. I was hoping all along that this would be

10 translated. A witness will be coming soon who will be addressing this

11 issue. I won't be dwelling on this. I have a single question to ask and

12 the rest I'll be discussing with our next witness.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask your question, Mr. Tapuskovic. Let us move

14 on.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a single question. I'll be

16 tendering this document that was compiled on the 15th of December, 1994.

17 Down the middle of the page the police inspector seems to have

18 written this, "Given the fact that the tram was hit just there where the

19 two of them where, her sister and she herself, and that the bullet had

20 passed through an open window, there was no sound of glass being

21 shattered. The passengers were hit by a single fragmentation bullet that

22 splintered and Afeza was hit to the upper part of her right shoulder, the

23 bullet exiting through her right upper arm."

24 Q. Is this something that you were shown when you spoke to the

25 police?

Page 1200

1 A. I didn't understand your question.

2 Q. In other words, did the police show you what you had previously

3 stated, that this had been a ricochet, not a direct hit?

4 A. I don't know about these military terms. I only know what

5 happened to me.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be wrapping up

7 my cross-examination because this is something that I'll be asking other

8 witnesses about. There are several other statements, but I don't think

9 there's any need to tire this witness with any further questions about the

10 note that the police compiled based on this interview.

11 This concludes my cross-examination. Madam Witness, thank you

12 again.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness --

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. My apologies.

15 DD00-0376, I would like to tender this document into evidence. And, if

16 possible -- dated November 1995. Well, that's been admitted. That's 65

17 ter 02875 -- or, rather, I'm tendering -- rather, it's among the 65 ter

18 documents, 02875, but I'm tendering this into evidence. This is the

19 statement dated the 15th of November, 1995. I'm tendering this as

20 possible evidence, those two documents.


22 THE REGISTRAR: The 65 ter number 02875 will be admitted as

23 Exhibit D29. And the document ID DD00-0376 will be admitted as D30.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please. I'd like to go

Page 1201

1 back to the question I asked yesterday. I believe that the Defence

2 counsel went pretty much in the same direction as I did. Of course you're

3 not a specialist. You're not a ballistic expert. You don't know much

4 about shooting. But this is what I'd like to know: Yourself, did you

5 have any concrete elements, concrete facts that could help us know where

6 the shot came from? We must establish the facts, the fact that you were

7 wounded, but we must also find who was liable, who is responsible for

8 this. Experts will come, of course, to help us, but yourself, you know,

9 you know what police told you at the hospital. You know what the

10 physicians told you. But did you hear any shots? Did you hear any sound

11 that could help us know where the shots came from, which direction and

12 where it came from?

13 A. No. I didn't hear the shot being fired. I just felt a very

14 powerful impact, as I said in my statement, and I heard other passengers

15 screaming and everything else that occurred just after. However, trams

16 had been shot at before in that same place, and those were the comments

17 predominantly being made by the people there. Those were the two

18 buildings that were the closest to the museum, and those were under the

19 control of the Serb forces.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?

22 MS. MARCUS: No thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

24 for giving it. You may now leave.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 1202

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to take a 20-minute break to allow for

2 some technical matters to be attended to in relation to the next witness,

3 and the Chamber has some matters to deliberate on. So we'll take a half

4 an hour break now.

5 --- Break taken at 2.49 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 3.37 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber had to spend some additional time in

8 deliberation, and the Chamber apologises, therefore, for the lateness of

9 the resumption.

10 The witness is here. The witness must make the declaration.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

16 And you may commence.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Might

18 I just state just for advance notice, I'm going to be showing this witness

19 various documentation, and it might necessitate the Chamber -- or it might

20 necessitate my asking for leave to go into private session intermittently.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We note that.

22 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. The Trial Chamber has granted you -- Witness, I was just saying

Page 1203

1 that the Trial Chamber has granted you protection in the form of face and

2 voice distortion, so I will refer to you as Witness 138. Before we start,

3 I'd like the court usher to hand you a document folded and I have copies

4 for counsel and for Mr. President and Your Honours.

5 Witness, do you see your name, your date of birth, your place of

6 birth, and your father's name on that piece of paper in front of you?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Can you confirm to the Court that those details are correct?

9 A. The details are correct.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I would like to

11 offer that into evidence.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P120 under seal, Your Honours.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm going to be asking

15 some questions about the witness's personal background. I would ask if we

16 could move into private session for that part of the examination.


18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1204











11 Page 1204 redacted. Private session.















Page 1205

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


20 Q. Now, Witness 138, during your time as a crime technician, from the

21 period you joined the force up until November 1995, did you investigate

22 incidents of shelling and sniping?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber roughly how many incidents

25 of shelling and sniping did you investigate in that period?

Page 1206

1 A. During that period I had 52 on-site investigations that concerned

2 those incidents.

3 Q. And are you able to say, within the 52 on-site investigations,

4 roughly, how many pertained to shelling and how many pertained to sniping

5 incidents?

6 A. I can't give you the exact breakdown. I took notes in my diary,

7 but in terms of percentages, it would be about 75 to 80 per cent of the

8 incidents were shellings and the rest were incidents involving rifle fire.

9 Q. Now, I want you to concentrate on the period August 1994 through

10 to November 1995 for this question. Again, how many incidents of shelling

11 did you -- and sniping did you investigate in that particular period?

12 A. I think that altogether, when you count both sniping and shelling

13 incidents, there may have been 20 or 25 of such incidents. I'm not sure.

14 This is just off the top of my head.

15 Q. And again the same question. Within those 25 or so incidents, how

16 many related to shelling and how many related to sniping?

17 A. Well, the same statistics apply here. Many more incidents of

18 shelling than of sniping.

19 Q. Now I'm going to concentrate on shelling. We will get to sniping

20 at a later stage.

21 Just take the Trial Chamber through a typical shelling

22 investigation that you would undertake. Just describe the steps that you

23 would have to take conducting an on-site investigation.

24 A. Before coming to the scene, an investigating team was established

25 and I was part of it. Upon arrival on the scene, every member had his or

Page 1207

1 her specific task. It was my task to examine the scene, to photograph it,

2 to make a sketch of the scene. Of course, prior to photographing I had to

3 mark every piece of evidence that I was able to locate, and then if it was

4 in my job description to do so on that particular occasion, I was to take

5 samples or to collect that evidence and to send it for further forensic

6 analysis.

7 When it came to shelling, it was not my task to collect evidence;

8 in other words, fragments of the explosive, of the rounds. It was done by

9 my colleague, and he would send those fragments on for further forensic

10 analysis.

11 Q. You said that a team would be established before, as you said,

12 coming to the scene of investigation. Please tell the Trial Chamber

13 who -- who was in that team and what roles did each person typically play?

14 A. Well, depending on the actual case, the composition of the teams

15 varied. Sometimes there would be more people on the team, sometimes less.

16 In essence, this was decided by the investigative judge who was in charge

17 of the whole proceedings.

18 The investigative judge would go to the scene, one or more

19 inspectors from the security services centre that were working in the

20 crimes against person section. Then there would be an inspector from the

21 local police station, depending on the actual area. Member of the bomb

22 squad from the security services centre would also be there. I was there,

23 and possibly some experts that investigative judge requested to be present

24 on -- at the scene.

25 Q. Now, in addition to what you told the Court about examining the

Page 1208

1 scene and photographing the scene, did you undertake any investigation as

2 to direction of fire when it comes to shelling incidents?

3 A. Yes. That was indeed one of my tasks, of course, in consultation

4 with the entire team. I was one of the persons tasked with establishing

5 the direction on the basis of the round that had exploded there; so the

6 direction from which the round had come.

7 Q. Did you establish direction of fire for mortar weapons and air

8 bombs?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Again depending on the actual evidence and traces on

10 the site. Sometimes it was possible to do so, to determine this direction

11 of fire on the basis of the traces on the scene.

12 Q. How would you determine the direction of fire from a mortar

13 explosion? Just briefly take the Trial Chamber through that process.

14 A. It was the easiest to determine that when mortar shells exploded

15 on hard surfaces. In the Novi Grad area, this happened quite often

16 because in most cases there was a concrete surface.

17 A mortar shell leaves a specific -- specific impact site, impact

18 print, and sometimes it was in the form of a ring and sometimes we

19 referred to it as a paw. When a mortar shell impacts, there is an

20 explosion and the actual shell itself fragments into a thousand pieces and

21 the shrapnel leave their trace on the ground.

22 It is now perhaps difficult to describe that. If you look at it,

23 if you make a drawing, then it's easy to determine the direction of fire

24 for that particular shell.

25 Q. And what do you -- what about modified air bombs?

Page 1209

1 A. Modified air bombs had a completely different shape and

2 destructive power. Their body was not the same as that of a mortar shell.

3 In other words, they did not fragment into many pieces of shrapnel. They

4 simply made a very strong detonation, and they destroyed everything in a

5 certain radius.

6 On the basis of the marks left by the explosion, if such a bomb

7 hit the side of a building and if there was a lot of ricochet, then you

8 would be able to determine the direction from which this modified air bomb

9 had been fired.

10 Q. I just want to pick up on something you said about the destructive

11 power. Can you describe the difference between the destructive power of a

12 mortar and an air bomb, a modified air bomb?

13 A. I lived in Sarajevo, and I could hear the sound that mortar shells

14 made and the modified air bombs made. Unfortunately, I can tell you that

15 the difference in the sound they make is immense.

16 Second, when I would come to a scene and if it involved mortar

17 shell impact, mortar shells caused less damage to the physical structures,

18 quite unlike the modified air bombs which sometimes could destroy two or

19 three apartments at once.

20 Q. When you speak about the sound, are you talking about the

21 explosion sound or the sound in flight?

22 A. No. I was talking about the sound of the explosion that I was

23 able to hear on several occasions.

24 Q. Are you able to put into words -- or are you able to describe the

25 difference in the sounds of both mortars and modified air bombs?

Page 1210

1 A. Well, modified air bomb explosions were much louder than the

2 mortar shell explosions. And the damage that the modified air bomb could

3 cause, you could see from the damage just how powerful those blasts were.

4 When I carried out on-site investigations in case -- in the case

5 of air bomb explosions, on some occasions mortar shells would land 150

6 metres from where we were doing our job, but to me it sounded like

7 firecrackers going off when you compare that sound with the sound of the

8 modified air bomb exploding.

9 Q. Yes. I will actually elaborate on your last -- on the last part

10 of your answer in a moment, but I want to go back to the -- the

11 destruction of physical structures that you spoke about. How about the

12 destruction of -- let's say, the human destruction? How does it differ

13 between a mortar and a modified air bomb?

14 A. Mortar shells are made in such a way that they have a body made of

15 cast metal which is made in such a way that it fragments into thousands of

16 pieces, and it's purpose is to kill personnel. The shrapnel have a large

17 range, the shrapnel generated by the explosion. Only the other hand, the

18 air bombs do not generated any fragments, but the fragments would be

19 generated if it hit a hard surface, and then the pieces of concrete would

20 in themselves become deadly fragments. But in our work we always

21 encountered many more casualties if we were dealing with mortar shell

22 impacts than with modified air bombs.

23 Q. When you talk about fragments, is there another term that one

24 could use to describe fragment?

25 A. Shrapnel.

Page 1211

1 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the difference between a modified air

2 bomb and a mortar in terms of its accuracy. Are you able to talk about

3 that?

4 A. Indeed I am. The mortar shell is fired from a mortar which can be

5 adjusted accurately for the shell to land in an area that is normally

6 about 10 square metres large. That is normally the targeted area.

7 When you use a modified air bomb, the -- such targeting is not

8 possible. When I say "modified," it means they weren't serially produced.

9 They had special rocket launchers with special charges that they would

10 attach to the tip of these modified air bombs.

11 Q. How do you know that?

12 A. We took a number of specialised courses. We worked on this. We

13 worked with ballistic and forensic experts. We read literature on this

14 and so on and so forth.

15 Q. In your investigations of modified air bomb incidents, did you

16 ever find rocket launchers on the site or parts of rocket launchers on the

17 site of the investigation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, we've just been talking about your -- your role in

20 determining the direction of fire of mortars and modified air bombs. Was

21 it your role to determine the origin of fire of modified air bombs and

22 mortars?

23 A. That wasn't my job. There were other people who were in charge of

24 that.

25 Q. What about determining the angle of descent of the projectile?

Page 1212

1 A. We're talking about mortar shells, because they would have an

2 angle of descent and then they would impact against a certain surface. I

3 didn't measure the angle and I didn't establish what the angle was. There

4 was a ballistics expert there who was in charge of those measurements, and

5 that was his job, not mine.

6 Q. Now, I want to move to some specific incidents. First of all, do

7 you remember an incident at Geteova street number 12?

8 A. Geteova street.

9 Q. Excuse me. That was my terrible pronunciation. Geteova street

10 number 12.

11 A. Yes, I do remember that explosion. 22nd of June, 1995. Geteova

12 street number 12.

13 Q. On that day, did you conduct an on-site investigation?

14 A. Yes, I did. There had been an explosion, and I came there with a

15 team and I carried out an on-site investigation.

16 Q. Who was on that team?

17 A. There was an inspector from the security services centre. There

18 was an inspector from the Novi Grad station. There was an inspector from

19 the bomb squad. I was there, and I think there was a judge with us. I'm

20 not certain, but I think that's what my report reflects.

21 Q. Actually, that leads into my next question. Do you remember

22 producing a report from your on-site investigation on that day?

23 A. Yes. I produced one as soon as I was back at the police station.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I would like to

25 show Witness 138 Exhibit -- well, 65 ter number 02465, and I suspect it's

Page 1213

1 of assistance to the court deputy, but the ERN is 00375077 to 00375078.

2 And I understand that is pages 3 and 4 of the composite exhibit.

3 And, Mr. President and Your Honours, I would like to, if possible,

4 move into private session since there could be features that identify the

5 witness.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1214

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 1215


2 Q. Okay. Witness 138, do you have a sketch on the ELMO?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you complete this sketch?

5 A. Yes. This sketch comprises this sketch itself and another, an A4

6 sketch. There is a brief explanation of this sketch and a brief

7 description of events. On the front page you have my name, the date of

8 the incident and the file number.

9 Q. Right. What I would like you to -- at this stage, with the sketch

10 in front of you -- first of all, can you explain the figures -- well,

11 figure number 1, first of all? What does that denote?

12 A. Number 1 marks the place of the explosion. That is the exact

13 place where the projectile went off.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I now find myself

15 in a little bit of difficulty because I would like Witness 138 to mark

16 this -- this sketch. I guess it can be done on the monitor now.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, he can mark it on the ELMO.


19 Q. You said that point number 1 marks the exact place where the

20 projectile went off. Well, firstly, when you say "went off", do you mean

21 exploded?

22 A. That's where it exploded.

23 Q. Can you, beside the number 1 on the right, just put the letter E.

24 A. [Marks]. Yes.

25 Q. Can I just inquire --

Page 1216

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't see

3 anything at all. Thank you.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: I apologise for being difficult, but is the letter

5 E in the same colour as the figure number 1? I would prefer it if it

6 could be done in a different colour. I'm grateful for the indulgence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]


9 Q. Now, do you see the figure 2 there?

10 A. I see all the numbers quite clearly.

11 Q. What does the figure 2 denote?

12 A. The figure 2 marks the place where a part of the explosive device

13 was found, and we used this number to mark that.

14 Q. Perhaps you can mark that with an F for "fragment." Is that an

15 accurate reflection when you talk about part of explosive device?

16 A. Yes. We can say that, F for "fragment." F1 perhaps? Would you

17 like that, because there are more fragments.

18 Q. Well, do you see a position there where there was another fragment

19 found and, if so, which number is that?

20 A. This is number 3. Another fragment was found there.

21 Q. Very well. Can you mark that with the letter F and the figure 1.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Now, on that sketch, do you see the place where the damage was

24 caused?

25 A. No. Apart from the place of the explosion, you can't see that on

Page 1217

1 the sketch, with the exception of number 4, which is blood marks. That's

2 the place where we found blood marks.

3 Q. Why did you find blood marks at number 4?

4 A. In addition to other marks that I found, I also found blood marks.

5 Someone was probably hit there and left bleeding, hence the blood marks.

6 When we arrived to carry out an inspection, there were no injured or dead

7 at the scene itself.

8 Q. Did you find out later whether anybody had been injured or killed

9 in this incident?

10 A. Yes. It's in my report. I found out from my colleagues who were

11 part of the investigation team. They were in charge of finding out who

12 had been injured and who had been killed. I later got the names from

13 them.

14 Q. Do you remember who was killed on that incident?

15 A. In this particular case, a two-year-old girl was killed, and her's

16 is the only name I remember. Her name was Elmedina Burek.

17 Q. Looking at this sketch, are you able to say where the girl was

18 located when she was killed?

19 A. The girl was in a cot inside a flat. The piece of shrapnel tore

20 through the wall of this building and killed the little girl in her cot.

21 Q. Is the wall of the building depicted on this sketch?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you mark it with the letter B, please?

24 A. I'll mark the middle point, but it runs the entire length, and I

25 mean both sheets. It's right underneath the mark where it says P16. That

Page 1218

1 is the wall I'm talking about.

2 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Now, I just want to ask you about the

3 figures that are on the sketch in the middle. Do you see those figures?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what do they represent?

6 A. These are elevation marks marking the distance between certain

7 pieces of evidence that were inspected and marked, so that if the

8 investigation was to go on the next day, these pieces of evidence could be

9 returned exactly to the same spots where they were found or else, in order

10 for us to be able to tell the distance between these traces, pieces of

11 evidence, and the corner of the building.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I'd like to offer

13 that into evidence.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P122, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm sorry, but I have a

17 question. On this graph, the figure 2 that's at the bottom of the page

18 means fragment number 1, but what is the figure 2 that is on top of the

19 page? There's also figure number 4. Could you tell us what that is, the

20 ones that are on the top of the page? There's a 2 and a 4 on the top of

21 the page.

22 A. Certainly. Number 4 marks the blood, the blood that was found in

23 that spot. The number 2 marks the distance between that and the corner of

24 the building. You see this curving line right here and the corner. So

25 this is the corner of that residential building. At a distance of two

Page 1219

1 metres from there, you find the blood marks. And the 15.4 metres is the

2 distance from there to the other opposite corner of the building. So

3 that's what the number 4 marks both in the sketch and in the photographs

4 that I actually took.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.


7 Q. I'd like to now, sticking with the -- the same exhibit number,

8 which is 2465, could we move to page 00375086. Before we do that, excuse

9 me, can we move into private session?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1220











11 Page 1220 redacted. Private session.















Page 1221

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


24 Q. Witness 138, sticking with this incident, finally, I'd like to

25 show you Exhibit 65 ter 2466. And the ERN is 00375110 to ERN 00375114,

Page 1222

1 and I hope that these are photographs.

2 Witness 138, do you see a photograph on your screen?

3 A. Yes, I can see this photograph.

4 Q. Did you take this photograph?

5 A. Yes, upon arrival at the scene and once we've marked everything.

6 Q. Just to -- just to confirm, this photograph relates to the

7 incident that we're currently talking about, that is, on the 22nd of June,

8 1995 at Geteova number 12; is that right?

9 A. That is correct. This is an impact site on the asphalt surface

10 next to a building in number 12 Geteova Street.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, just for the sake

12 of completeness, I'd like to -- to interchangeably use the sketch that has

13 been admitted with the photographs so Witness 138 can present -- help

14 present the sequence to Your Honours if that's possible.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be done.


17 Q. Witness 138, do you see the sketch on the ELMO beside you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Now, looking at the photograph, do you see a figure number 2

20 there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does that figure number 2 correspond to a marking on the sketch,

23 and if it does, please indicate that.

24 A. Yes, it does correspond. This is in fact marked accurately both

25 in the photo file and on the sketch.

Page 1223

1 Q. Well, just to be clear, there are, as I can see, two figure number

2 2s on the sketch. Can you point out the figure number 2 on the sketch

3 that corresponds to the number 2 on the photograph?

4 A. The one that we're looking at on this photograph is the one that

5 I'm pointing at right now. This might be a bit confusing because I put

6 number 2 here and I didn't write this down here, but the point where --

7 that I'm pointing at where these two lines intersect, this is the location

8 of this fragment that you can see here on this photograph.

9 Q. For the --

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 MR. SACHDEVA: For the benefit of the record, in answer to my

12 question whether the figure number 2 on the photograph corresponds to a

13 figure on the sketch, Witness 138 pointed at the figure number 2 that is

14 on the bottom left-hand corner of the sketch closest to the figures

15 00375088.

16 Can we now move -- keeping the sketch on the ELMO, can we now move

17 to the second page of the photographs, and that is 00375111. Can we for

18 the moment just concentrate on the top picture. Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, do you have a picture on your screen with the figure

20 number 1?

21 A. Yes, I can see it.

22 Q. What is depicted on that picture?

23 A. On this photograph we can see the impact site, the explosion site,

24 in other words, and the remnants of the projectile.

25 Q. Now again for the sake of completeness, does the photograph with

Page 1224

1 the figure number 1 correspond to a mark or a figure on the sketch on the

2 ELMO, and if it does, please, can you indicate that?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. We have the same number both on the sketch

4 and on the photograph. It is the same mark.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: For the record, the witness is -- the witness has

6 pointed to the figure number 1 on the right-hand side at the bottom of the

7 sketch.

8 May we move back to the top picture, please.

9 Q. Witness 138, while we're on this picture, since you've said this

10 is the explosion point, were you able to determine the direction of fire

11 from this explosion point?

12 A. Yes, we were, because on the basis of the explosion and the fact

13 that this tube got stuck in the concrete, we were able to determine the

14 direction from which this projectile had come, and in fact I marked this

15 on the drawing that I made.

16 Q. Well, firstly, what was the direction that you concluded it came

17 from?

18 A. Well, you can see here that it came from the west.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry, Counsel. Could you, please, ask the

20 witness to show this again, because I didn't get it.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely, Your Honour. I was just trying to get

22 back to the ELMO. I noticed that the witness was marking on the ELMO.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. This arrow here marked with

24 number 5 indicates that the shell had come from this direction and that it

25 exploded at this point here that is marked with number 1.

Page 1225

1 MR. SACHDEVA: For the record, the witness is pointing to the

2 arrow on the bottom right-hand page of the sketch that is just above the

3 markings 1, E. Perhaps, actually, to make it easier, could the witness

4 put the letter W at the end of the arrow.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you. Can we now move to the same page of the

7 photograph but to the bottom photograph on the picture.

8 Q. Do you see a photograph on your screen, Witness?

9 A. Yes, I can see it.

10 Q. What is that photograph?

11 A. This is a fragment that we found on the site. It is marked with

12 number 2. It was photographed together with a scale ruler.

13 Q. And actually, I forgot to ask you, but this photograph and the one

14 before that and the words on top of this one, did you personally take

15 these photographs?

16 A. Yes, that's right. I took those photographs. I photographed the

17 fragment that is marked both on the sketch and in the photo file with the

18 number 2.

19 Q. Now, again, the same exercise. Looking at the sketch on the ELMO,

20 does the figure number 2 here on this photograph correspond to a figure on

21 the sketch, and if it does, please, indicate that for the Court.

22 A. Yes. This is the fragment that I'm pointing here on my drawing.

23 I first approached it, then I placed a scale ruler next to it, then I

24 photographed it from above.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: For the purposes of the record, the witness pointed

Page 1226

1 to the -- the marking -- the area of the marking F, 2 on the bottom

2 left-hand corner of the page.

3 May we please move to the next page of the photographs.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Counsel. Could you ask the witness

5 what are the small signs that look almost like, I don't know, pigeon feet

6 just south of the point on the map marked as 3, between the -- marked 3

7 and the wall. There are two groups of small marks, and what are they?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indicates]

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Exactly, Mr. Witness. What are they?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is our mark indicating that

11 this is grassy area. This is an area where there's grass, whereas all the

12 rest is actually asphalt, and you can see that on the photographs. So

13 this was a convention that we used.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Did we arrive at 00375112, the next page of the

16 photographs? I see that we did.

17 Q. Witness 138, do you see a photograph on your screen?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I do. I see a photograph.

19 Q. Did you take that photograph?

20 A. Yes, I did. I took this photograph.

21 Q. And what is depicted in that photograph?

22 A. This is where one of the larger fragments was found. It was

23 marked with number 3. And you can see behind it the explosion site.

24 Q. Just for the benefit of the Court, when you said you could see the

25 explosion site behind it, can you point to it, and is it possible to mark

Page 1227

1 this with an E?

2 A. You can see in the photo file, behind number 3, you can see a dark

3 area on the road. This is the explosion site, and this number 3 is the

4 fragment that we marked with this number. And the explosion site in

5 relation to the number 3, this is the direction from which I took this

6 photograph. I wanted to get the location where fragment number 3 was from

7 this direction, and then in the background you can actually see the

8 explosion site.

9 I don't quite understand. What is it that you want me to mark?

10 Q. Yes. We will get to the same exercise with respect to the sketch

11 in a moment, but I actually -- since you mentioned, you could see the

12 explosion site on the photograph behind, as you said, the figure number

13 3. I would like you to mark that on the photograph, and I understand it

14 can be done.

15 A. So this is the explosion site, and this is the fragment that is

16 marked with number 3. You told me to put a letter next to the explosion

17 site?

18 Q. I didn't, but I am now, please.

19 A. Which letter do you want me to put?

20 Q. The letter E.

21 A. [Marks]

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I think that that

23 particular photograph needs to be -- I'd like to tender that individually

24 into evidence.


Page 1228

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P123, Your

2 Honours.


4 Q. All right. You mentioned in your initial answer to my question

5 that -- that you could see the corresponding figure from this photograph

6 on the sketch, and again I'd like you to go to the sketch on the ELMO and

7 indicate that for the Court.

8 A. The fragment that can be seen on this photograph marked with

9 number 3 is here on the sketch where you can see these two lines with

10 arrows intersecting, and it is marked with this number here, F1.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: For the record, the witness is pointing to the spot

12 just beside the figure number 3, the letter F, and the figure number 1.

13 Now, if we can scroll down to the second photograph on the page.

14 Q. So, Witness, do you see a photograph on your screen with a big,

15 large figure number 3?

16 A. Yes, I can see this photograph.

17 Q. And -- and what is depicted in this photograph?

18 A. This is a photograph of the fragment that is marked with the same

19 number on the previous photograph but close up and again with the scale

20 ruler.

21 Q. So can I just confirm so as to save us going back to this sketch

22 that this figure number 3 corresponds to the figure number 3 that you just

23 indicated a moment ago?

24 A. Do you want me to point to something on the sketch or ...

25 Q. No. I think it's fine. If you can confirm that this figure

Page 1229

1 corresponds to the figure number 3 on the sketch.

2 A. Yes, that is correct. This is the fragment that we saw on the

3 previous photograph, and on the sketch of the scene, it is marked with the

4 number 3 or with the letter F1 which I put next to it a little while ago.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Okay. Can we now move to the next page of the

6 photographs, and that is 00375113.

7 Q. So, firstly, Witness 138, did you -- do you see a photograph on

8 your screen?

9 A. Yes, I can see a photograph.

10 Q. Did you take that photograph?

11 A. Yes, I took this photograph.

12 Q. And what is in that photograph?

13 A. On this photograph we can see a section of the northern facade of

14 the skyscraper or a high-rise building located at number 12 Geteova

15 Street. And you can see on it, on the sandy area here, you can see the

16 red stains. That's actually blood.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may ask the

19 Prosecutor, this is not marked with any number, this photograph. So far

20 we've had numbers for each of the photographs, and that's been very

21 useful. Do we have a number on this photograph?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a number on this photograph?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Mr. President, at the moment there isn't, but

24 I'm going to ask Witness 138 to provide some more explanations which

25 should make everything clear.

Page 1230



3 Q. Now, on that photograph that we see here, do you see an impact

4 point on the wall in the photograph just above the sandy area?

5 A. Yes. I can see the damage to the facade which occurred when a

6 projectile or part of a projectile hit the building.

7 Q. Did that damage to the facade that you speak about, was it caused

8 by the projectile that exploded at the impact point that you have

9 indicated with the figure 1 on the sketch?

10 A. That's right. This damage was caused by a fragment of the

11 projectile that tore through the wall and hit the little girl who was

12 lying in her bed.

13 Q. So behind the wall where you see the impact point, is there a

14 residence at that -- at that place, an apartment there?

15 A. Yes, that's right. There's a residential building.

16 Q. Perhaps, Witness, you can mark the -- the area of the wall where

17 you see damage with the letter D for "damage."

18 A. This is the damage.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I'd like to offer

20 that into evidence as an individual photograph.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let it be admitted.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P124, Your Honours.


24 Q. Now, again, I'm sorry. This may appear laborious, but I submit

25 it's ultimately helpful. Can you look at the sketch that you have and put

Page 1231

1 a -- or indicate -- indicate on the sketch where the damage on the

2 photograph occurred, if you can do that?

3 A. You can't see that particular piece of damage on the sketch

4 because this is the flank of the building, the flank of the wall, but it

5 should be hereabouts. So what you see on the sketch is a bird's-eye view

6 as it were, and this sketch was taken from one of those sides. Therefore,

7 that damage can't be seen.

8 Q. Very well. But taking that it is a bird's-eye sketch, you have --

9 where you have put the letter B -- do you see where you put the letter B

10 there?

11 A. Yes, I see the letter B. This damage would be to the right of

12 where the letter B is. Which means in the photograph, too, you can see

13 that it's closer to the left-hand corner of the building.

14 Q. Well, if you can, I'd like you to mark where you say it's closer

15 to the left-hand corner of the building. I'd like you to mark on the

16 sketch where that place is with the letter D.

17 A. [Marks]. I've just done it.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President and Your Honours, I'd like to tender

20 that sketch as it now appears into evidence. I -- I have lost count,

21 actually, as to how many times it's been admitted with different markings

22 on there, but I'd be grateful for some --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we've admitted this sketch with the

25 first series of witness markings as Exhibit P122.

Page 1232


2 THE REGISTRAR: And it will remain Exhibit P122.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we are going to have to take a

4 break now. We'll break for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.06 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.24 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Sachdeva.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, can I just put a question to you to

9 address to the witness. I'm just a little unsure about the date when this

10 took place, because I think according to my recollection that the witness

11 said that this happened on the 22nd of June. That's in my notes. But at

12 a later point he -- the witness said that it took place on the 25th of

13 June. So please check whether this took place on one or the other date.

14 And secondly, we have seen on some of the photographs that were

15 shown to us that there was a bloodstain that looked to me as if that had

16 occurred outside the building, but I was confused because I thought that

17 the person who dropped this blood had been inside the building. So if you

18 can please ask the witness to clarify how the bloodstains got there.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely, Your Honour.

21 Q. First of all, Witness 138, please just tell the Trial Chamber the

22 date of this incident.

23 A. The 22nd of June, 1995.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Does that clarify it for Your Honour?

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Counsel.

Page 1233


2 Q. And secondly, Witness 138, if we could go to the photograph on --

3 again, I'm sorry to be reading out the ERN number, but it is 00375113. Do

4 you have the photograph with the letter D on there?

5 A. Yes, I see the photograph.

6 Q. Now, when I first put this photograph up you were -- you explained

7 that there could be seen some blood traces in the -- in the sand part of

8 the yard. Do you remember that, firstly?

9 A. Yes, I remember that. It can be seen clearly in this photograph,

10 although no numbers were used to mark it.

11 Q. The question is, do you know where -- how that blood got to be at

12 that location?

13 A. As far as I know, when the projectile exploded, a girl was killed,

14 but several other persons were injured. Therefore, the blood probably

15 comes from one of the persons who were injured.

16 Q. So from your answer, just to confirm, it is not the blood of the

17 little girl that you have given evidence about that was killed?

18 A. No. The girl came to grief inside the flat. This blood is not

19 her blood.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness 138. Now, if we could move to the last two

21 photographs, and that would be on the next -- actually, excuse me. If we

22 can just go down to the lower photograph. I'm sorry.

23 Okay. Witness 138, do you see a photograph there with the figure

24 4 on it?

25 A. Yes, I see it.

Page 1234

1 Q. Did you take that photograph?

2 A. Yes, I took that photograph.

3 Q. And what's depicted in that photograph?

4 A. You can see blood from the previous photograph which was not

5 marked with the number 4. It was first marked and then subsequently

6 photographed.

7 Q. Is that the blood that you were referring to in the previous

8 photograph just in front of the building?

9 A. Yes, that's right. It's the same blood as in the previous

10 photograph under the letter D that I placed on the previous photograph.

11 Here it is marked with the number 4, and you can see the exact spot. And

12 the distance between this spot and both corners of the building was

13 specified on the sketch.

14 Q. And does that 4 on the photograph correspond to the figure 4 on

15 the sketch?

16 A. Yes, that's it.

17 Q. Okay. If we can move to the last two photographs, please.

18 Witness 138, do you see those two photographs on your screen?

19 A. I see both photographs, one after the other.

20 Q. Can you tell the Court what are those photographs?

21 A. The first photograph you can see the entire body of the child who

22 was killed. In the other photograph you see the head injury, which was

23 photographed using a scale ruler.

24 Q. And are those photographs of the child who you mentioned as

25 Elmedina Burek?

Page 1235

1 A. Yes. And underneath the photographs you have explanations that I

2 provided and typed up.

3 Q. Now, did you take these photographs?

4 A. No. I wasn't the one who actually took them.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we get away from this photograph now.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. That can be removed.

7 Q. Now, you've just said that you weren't the one who actually took

8 the photographs. Who took them then?

9 A. These photographs were taken in the morgue of the Kosevo Hospital

10 by one of my colleagues who does the same job as I do.

11 Q. Why didn't you take these photographs in the morgue of the

12 hospital?

13 A. When I arrived at the scene at the outset of the investigation, I

14 had nothing to indicate who had been injured or who had been killed in

15 this incident. Therefore, throughout my duties, which includes the moment

16 when this incident, this shelling happened, I had been transferred to the

17 Novi Grad police station from my original place of work. When we arrived

18 at the scene, we found no dead bodies, and we found no injured persons.

19 All we found were the pieces of evidence that I marked in the photograph.

20 With the exception of these last two photographs that were taken by one of

21 my colleagues, workmates, in the morgue of the Kosevo Hospital, they

22 submitted the photographs to me so that I could attach them to the file

23 that I was working on. At the time, this was standard procedure used to

24 reduce the risk of physically going to the hospital and back.

25 Q. When you say that this was standard procedure, was this something

Page 1236

1 that occurred on a regular basis, that is, you produced a photo

2 documentation report with photographs, but photographs of casualties would

3 be taken by other officers and included in your final photo documentation

4 report?

5 A. Specifically, as regards this particular case, my bosses had

6 agreed to do it this way. In all my other cases, I would photograph the

7 scene, and I would photograph the bodies, the bodies that there were in

8 the morgue wherever I happened to be. However, prior to our arrival,

9 someone, and I don't know who it was, had taken this body to the Kosevo

10 Hospital morgue. I wanted to avoid the risk inherent in -- by journey to

11 the hospital and back, so my boss sent another forensic technician who

12 then photographed the body of Elmedina Burek. He sent a messenger over to

13 me with the photographs so that I might attach them to the relevant file.

14 Q. How -- well, put it this way: How was it established that this

15 child was killed as a result of this incident?

16 A. I didn't conduct the investigation on my own. The team comprised

17 several people who were in charge of taking witness statements, the

18 statements of those injured in the incident, and so on and so forth. So

19 this is something that they learned, and they passed this information

20 along to the investigating magistrate. The investigating magistrate or

21 judge then gave an order for the forensic technician to go and photograph

22 the body, do his job. They had probably found out that the body was

23 inside that flat. I didn't take any photographs of the flat myself simply

24 because back then I was not even aware of what had occurred. Later on we

25 weren't even able to access the flat since the parents never came back.

Page 1237

1 Q. When you say that the team was comprised of several people who

2 were in charge of taking witness statements, are you saying that the

3 information about the deceased child was established by other officers

4 speaking to witnesses at the scene?

5 A. This was something that was done by inspectors of the security

6 services centre and those belonging to the Novi Grad station. So yes,

7 that's a fair summary.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: I'd like to show Witness 138 a third document. It

9 is part of the same -- the same 65 ter number, being 2465, and it

10 starts -- it starts 00375075. And, Mr. President, Your Honours, might we

11 move into private session since --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: -- it might -- thank you.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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Page 1238











11 Page 1238 redacted. Private session.















Page 1239

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23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 1240

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Might I just very briefly seek some clarification?

2 I have -- I intend now to show the witness further materials from that

3 35-page exhibit, that composite exhibit, for the purpose of offering it

4 into evidence. If, however, it's been admitted into evidence, then I can

5 move on. I just want to clarify that.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The answer is yes. Yes. However, Judge Mindua

7 has a question.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Counsel, before we move on to

9 another question, I would like the witness to answer a question regarding

10 the sketch, the sketch which he has drawn fairly well.

11 Witness, on the sketch where we have figure number 1, that is the

12 point of impact; is that right? And on the photograph on which we have

13 the figure number 1 is a photograph of the impact, the point of impact. I

14 don't have it on the screen, but I remember.

15 So you conclude by saying that the shell came from the west. Your

16 sketch shows that the south is at the bottom and the north at the top.

17 The west is therefore on the left-hand side of your sketch. Is that

18 right? Could you spell this out a little bit. I'd like to understand

19 more clearly. On the basis of the facts you have provided here, you infer

20 that the shell came from the west. In other words, from the right-hand

21 side of your sketch. That's it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I've marked with an arrow was

23 the direction of the incoming shell. The arrow in the lower part of the

24 sketch, if that's the one you mean, that doesn't mark south. It actually

25 marks north. We use the letter S to indicate north in our language. It's

Page 1241

1 not the letter S as it is in English. The letter S stands for "sjever",

2 which means north in our language. Does that explain it?

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] That's fine. That's fine.

4 I understand much more clearly now. Thank you.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Before I move on, I'd like to offer into evidence

6 the set of photographs that we've just been going over, and the exhibit

7 number is a different one, being 2466.


9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P125, Your

10 Honours.


12 Q. Now, Witness 138, I want to talk to you about some other

13 incidents. You've just been talking about an incident at Geteova number

14 12. Did you at any time undertake another investigation at that same

15 street?

16 A. Yes. I undertook other investigations on this same street but at

17 a different house number.

18 Q. Well, firstly, what was the house number, if you remember that?

19 A. The building on Geteova Street, the house number is 5.

20 Q. And when was that?

21 A. On the 28th of June, 1995.

22 Q. Now, in addition to this incident on the 28th of June at Geteova

23 Street number 5, did you undertake another investigation on that same day?

24 A. Yes. I was on duty that day, and I was at the Novi Grad police

25 station. I had to perform several investigations following explosions on

Page 1242

1 that day.

2 Q. You said several investigations on that day. What was the first

3 investigation that you undertook on that day?

4 A. On that day there was several explosions. The first investigation

5 I conducted was near the radio television building.

6 Q. What happened at the radio television building on that day?

7 A. There was an explosion in the -- in a courtyard of the TV building

8 between studio C and the building across the way from the studio.

9 Q. Do you know what type of projectile exploded in the courtyard of

10 the TV building on at that day?

11 A. It was one of those modified air bombs.

12 Q. Okay. I will show you some documentation regarding this incident,

13 but just very briefly, can you tell the Trial Chamber how did you come to

14 get involved in that investigation of the TV building?

15 A. Word reached us that an explosion had occurred or, rather, I had

16 actually heard the explosion myself. The duty officer in charge of

17 passing information along to the security services centre informed us of

18 what had occurred. A team was set up headed by an investigative judge and

19 including an inspector from the security services centre. There were one

20 or two of them. I can't quite remember, but you should be able to find

21 that in the report. There was a member of the bomb squad from the

22 security services centre and a number of other experts. I can't remember

23 who specifically, but there must be a list of the people who were actually

24 involved in the original report.

25 I was a member of the team myself. I had to wait up for them to

Page 1243

1 reach the Novi Grad police station from the downtown area first.

2 Q. When you say that you actually heard the explosion yourself, at

3 the time you heard the explosion, did you know that the explosion was at

4 the radio television building?

5 A. At first I didn't know because I was in a room and I couldn't hear

6 from the walls. When you have an explosion like that, it's difficult to

7 say exactly where it comes from, the direction. But the sound was clear,

8 and after awhile we had received word from the policemen who were on the

9 ground about this explosion and the duty officer who was in charge of the

10 station at the time also subsequently told us that an explosion occurred

11 at the TV building.

12 Let me say something else. In addition to this explosion, there

13 were another two roughly at the same time. This was sometime in the

14 morning and I can't say right now with certitude whether this was the

15 first, whether this one occurred before the other two that occurred on

16 that same day. However, if you go back to the original reports, the exact

17 times and the entire time line is stated accurately.

18 Q. Very well. Just for organisation's sake, let's stick with the

19 incident at the TV building. When did you eventually get to the TV

20 building to conduct your on-site investigation?

21 A. I'm sure that an hour and a half or two hours had passed. It's

22 specified in the report when the on-site investigation started. I had to

23 wait for the investigating team to arrive from the town, and when we all

24 met up there we went to the radio television building to conduct an

25 investigation. It may have been an hour and a half, two hours after the

Page 1244

1 actual explosion. I can't tell you with any certainty now.

2 Q. Sticking to what you did when you got to the incident side,

3 briefly take us through the steps that you took in your investigation.

4 A. We went into the radio television building. This happened behind

5 the main building. It is a multi-storey building. The first thing we saw

6 in this inner courtyard was that there was a great deal of damage. It was

7 clear at first sight that this was not a mortar shell.

8 After arriving there we approached the impact site of this

9 projectile, and it was right next to the wall of the studio C. It caused

10 a great deal of damage to the wall itself, and the wall is 60 centimetres

11 thick or so, and it's made of reinforced concrete.

12 This was the first case that I encountered of this kind of damage

13 caused by an explosion of this strength.

14 As for the walls facing this wall where the explosion actually

15 took place, you could see other damage caused by concrete fragments from

16 the wall and broken glass. And there was also a burn mark there. It's

17 difficult for me to explain now, but you would be able to see that on the

18 photograph.

19 We determined at a later stage, because we could not -- we could

20 not figure out how this explosion occurred, how this projectile hit the

21 inner courtyard, but when we went up to the roof and when we were able to

22 find some other marks there, indicative of how the projectile flew in,

23 that made us conclude how the explosion actually occurred.

24 Q. All right. I'm going to get to the -- to the diagrams and the

25 photographs in a moment. I just want to ask one or two questions from

Page 1245

1 your answer just to clarify.

2 When you said that you were not used to this kind of -- this kind

3 of damage caused by an explosion of this strength, what do you mean by

4 that?

5 A. Up until that time I mostly dealt with mortar shells or maybe

6 shells fired from artillery. That kind of shell did not cause this kind

7 of damage. The damage caused to this call was too great to have been

8 caused by a mortar shell or a small-bore cannon. It was a 60-centimetre

9 thick wall made of reinforced concrete.

10 Q. Okay. At the conclusion of your investigation, that is the team's

11 investigation, did you establish a sequence of how the explosion occurred

12 at the TV building? First, tell the Trial Chamber if you were able to

13 establish that.

14 A. Yes. On the basis of the evidence we were able to locate during

15 our investigation, we actually found enough evidence to determine where

16 the projectile had come from, and of course it was quite obvious where it

17 had impacted.

18 Q. At this point just -- just briefly tell the Trial Chamber the

19 sequence of the -- the incident, and then we'll move to the visual aids.

20 A. The projectile flew in from the same direction as the one in the

21 previous case, the number 12 Geteova Street. In its trajectory, the

22 projectile probably -- or, rather, definitely lost some energy, and it

23 fell on the roof of the radio and television building. It ricochetted off

24 it and continued along its trajectory. It flew over a low wall on the

25 roof of studio C building, hit the building opposite this wall. It was

Page 1246

1 actually taller than studio C building. It ricochetted off this wall and

2 fell right next to the wall where it actually exploded.

3 Q. When you say that the projectile flew in from the direction as the

4 one in the previous case, what direction is that?

5 A. It flew in from a westerly direction approximately.

6 Q. Upon completion of your investigation, did you produce a report

7 for this incident?

8 A. Yes. I produced a forensic report, and then I also produced a

9 photo file and the sketch of the scene.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Might the witness be shown 65 ter number 185 and

11 the ERN is 00358713 to 8714. And, Mr. President, may we move into private

12 session?


14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

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Page 1247











11 Pages 1247-1250 redacted. Private session.















Page 1251

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 1252


2 Q. Now, Witness 138, do you see a sketch on your screen?

3 A. Yes, I do. The sketch, it is a sketch that I myself made.

4 Q. Now, I want to try and take you through this sketch and explain a

5 few things for the Court.

6 On the upper left-hand side of the sketch there is a -- a circle

7 with an arrow just behind it. Do you see that there?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Can you just point to that with the -- with the stick, please,

10 just to be clear.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. That's fine. You've marked it. That's okay. So what is that

13 marking? What does that marking depict?

14 A. This is a mark indicating the damage to the roof caused by the

15 impact and the ricochet of the projectile.

16 Q. Now, in terms of the sequence, was that the -- well, where does

17 that impact point come in the sequence of this -- in the sequence of the

18 explosion in this incident?

19 A. This is the damage to the roof of one section of the radio

20 television building. I don't know what's underneath this roof, but the

21 projectile flew in from the left-hand side, and you can see this arrow

22 that's marked here. This is where it ricochetted off, and then it

23 continued along this trajectory, which is a little bit hard to see on this

24 photograph. And then it hit here, flew other studio C and hit right here

25 at this wall, ricochetted off, fell down to the floor, and that's marked

Page 1253

1 with AA on this drawing.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness 138. Please don't mark the sketch unless I ask

3 you to, because I want to get through this as clearly as possible.

4 So that red -- that circle that you have made on the left-hand

5 side of the -- on the left-hand side of the picture of the impact point,

6 does that represent the first impact point of the projectile on the

7 building?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. As I've already said, the projectile flew

9 in from the left-hand side. This is the first point of contact with the

10 RTV building. It ricochetted off right back into the air and continued

11 along a new trajectory.

12 Q. Very well. Can you please mark -- can you please write on top of

13 that circle the letters F, I for India, and P for Papa.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And just to be clear, is that first impact point on the roof of

16 the building?

17 A. Yes. That is the first impact on the building. It first hit the

18 roof.

19 Q. Did it explode at that point?

20 A. No, it did not explode here. It just ricochetted off and then

21 continued on.

22 Q. Where did it ricochet off to? In other words, try and follow

23 the -- follow the sequence of the projectile. Where did it go from this

24 first impact point?

25 A. You can see it quite clearly on this sketch. There's this broken

Page 1254

1 line with the arrows on it, and that's the trajectory that this projectile

2 took. The broken line continues to the right from the first impact point,

3 and you can see the arrows indicating the direction in which this

4 projectile was moving.

5 Q. Can you please with your red pen follow the line of the --

6 indicating the direction in which the projectile was moving up until the

7 second point of impact.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Now, where the line has stopped on the -- on the wall, what

10 happened there?

11 A. After it had ricochetted, the projectile continued its trajectory.

12 It hit the wall here. It bounced off the wall and continued on to the

13 wall of studio C.

14 Q. Just to be clear, when you said, "It hit the wall here," please

15 mark that position.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And is that the second impact point?

18 A. That's right. This is the second impact point.

19 Q. Can you please put the letters SIP next to that circle?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And just to be clear, did the projectile explode at that point?

22 A. No, it didn't. It ricochetted yet again.

23 Q. Where did it go after that?

24 A. The spot that I marked with the letters SIP, you can see an arrow

25 there leading back to the left. It's a broken line. There's an arrow

Page 1255

1 pointing at the wall of studio C, and that's where the projectile

2 eventually came to a halt and exploded.

3 Q. Very well. Please continue with the -- with your marker and mark

4 the direction after the ricochet on the second -- from the second impact

5 point to where the explosion occurred.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And just beside where the explosion occurred, can you please put

8 the letter E.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Now, on the right-hand corner of the sketch there's a circle

11 there, a large circle. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, I see that. I drew it.

13 Q. Please explain what that is.

14 A. Sure. Right here you can see the arrows, and it says AA. So that

15 is a view from here to the place where the damage is apparent on the wall.

16 Since this was drawn as a bird's-eye view, and you can't actually see

17 the shape or the dimensions of the damage to the wall, I call this view

18 AA, and I drew separate sketch of this.

19 What you see in the upper-right corner of the sketch is a view of

20 the damage to the wall of studio C and its dimensions.

21 Q. And when you say damage to the wall of studio C, do you mean where

22 the explosion occurred?

23 A. That's right. The damage occurred as a result of the projectile

24 exploding. This is the spot where the explosion occurred.

25 Q. And where the explosion occurred, what -- how would you describe

Page 1256

1 that area where the explosion occurred, that -- that physical structure?

2 A. It's a courtyard. It's an open area between the two buildings,

3 and it didn't have a roof. This is where the projectile landed, and it

4 eventually exploded next to the wall of studio C. There was a hole in the

5 ground 2.4 metres deep. That was the hole in the ground.

6 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to show you some photographs, and we'll try

7 and conduct the same exercise so as to get a clear picture of what

8 happened.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: If the witness can be shown --

10 JUDGE MINDUA: One minute, Mr. Prosecutor.

11 [Interpretation] Witness, please. I would like things to be

12 clear. On the same picture, on the same sketch, we have studio C that's

13 on the left. In the middle there's another room, and on the right another

14 room again. So you're saying that the bomb exploded in studio C, but how

15 did it enter there, because there's a wall. So did it go through the wall

16 after having ricochetted elsewhere? It went -- it went through the

17 studio's wall and then exploded in the wall, or how exactly did it happen?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My sketch clearly shows studio C.

19 So that's a bird's-eye view.

20 To the right there is the building of which the projectile had

21 ricochetted. Part of the building is drawn. Between the two buildings

22 there's an area with no roof. This building and studio C do have a roof.

23 The projectile flew over the roof, ricochetted off the roof and

24 handed in this area. This is not a separate building with a roof such as

25 studio C or the building to the right of studio C. This is an empty lot,

Page 1257

1 an empty area, a courtyard, if you like.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but how did the

3 bomb enter into the studio to explode in the studio? It went through the

4 roof of studio C? Is that what happened?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right. I did not answer your

6 other question.

7 Once it had ricochetted off the wall of the other building across

8 the way, it did not enter studio C. It hit the outer wall of studio C and

9 that's where the explosion occur. The damage was outside, but also an

10 opening was created on the wall of studio C. I put the letter A there,

11 and I put it inside the studio, but I only did that in order to avoid

12 obscuring any of the other features that are marked. The letter E should

13 actually be outside studio C because the explosion occurred against the

14 outer wall.

15 Therefore, the explosion did not occur inside the studio, inside

16 studio C; it occurred outside.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Before I move to the photographs, might that still

19 be -- I'd like to offer that into evidence, Mr. President.


21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P127, Your Honours.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Now, for the purposes of this exercise, could I --

23 could I do what I did last time and keep a copy of the sketch on the ELMO

24 so that we can see the sketch in conjunction with the photographs?


Page 1258

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I just ask for 30 seconds to

2 inquire of the 65 ter number of these photographs?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.

4 [Prosecution confer]

5 MR. SACHDEVA: It's Exhibit number 65 ter 194.

6 Q. Witness 138, while that's being put on the screen, just tell the

7 Trial Chamber, did you take photographs of the incident in your

8 investigation?

9 A. Yes. I took the photographs, I compiled a file, I sketched the

10 scene, and I produced the report.

11 Q. Now, do you see a photograph on your screen right now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you take that photograph?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And what is that photograph?

16 A. This photograph shows the view that I found when I came to the

17 courtyard, and it shows the scene of the explosion.

18 Q. And that wall that you see on the left-hand side of the

19 photograph, is that the wall that -- that is on the side of studio C that

20 we saw on the sketch?

21 A. Yes. That's the left half of the photograph. There's the damage

22 to the east wall of studio C.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: If we can move to the next page of the photographs,

24 please. May we please stay at the lower photograph for the moment.

25 Q. Do you see that photograph, Witness?

Page 1259

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you take this photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what is that photograph?

5 A. This photograph shows the damage caused by the first time the

6 projectile ricochetted.

7 Q. Does that photograph show the roof of the building?

8 A. Indeed it does. The damage that occurred on the roof of the

9 building. I drew a circle around it on the sketch a while ago.

10 Q. And does that -- that mark on this photograph correspond to a mark

11 on the sketch that you have on the ELMO, and if it does, please point to

12 it.

13 A. The damage in the photograph is exactly what I'm pointing at on

14 the sketch right now. This is how the photograph was taken. I was

15 standing facing the damage. I'm showing you the spot on the sketch. That

16 was my vantage point when I took the photograph.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: For the record, the witness has marked -- not

18 marked, has indicated the small circle on the left-hand side -- upper

19 left-hand side of the sketch that corresponds to the photograph that is

20 being shown on the monitor right now.

21 Okay. If we move back to the photographs and go to the upper one.

22 Q. 138, did you take that photograph?

23 A. Yes, I did, while I was on the roof.

24 Q. And do you see the entrance -- do you see the -- well, the

25 entrance of the courtyard or the atrium in that photograph?

Page 1260

1 A. Well, it's difficult to see it in this particular photograph.

2 This is where it is. This photograph was meant to show the damage that

3 occurred as a result of the explosion, damage to the other parts of the

4 radio and TV building wall.

5 Q. On this still, are you able to mark with an arrow the -- the

6 direction in which the projectile went into the atrium, if you can do this

7 on this photograph?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And where did it go down into the atrium? Can you mark that with

10 an A.

11 A. It's quite difficult. It flew over the wall and landed inside the

12 courtyard. You can't see the inside of the courtyard from this particular

13 vantage point, or, rather, the wall that the projectile later hit and

14 ricochetted off. This is just the general direction. This was behind me.

15 I was facing the other way when I took this photograph, the direction from

16 which the shell came. But the purpose of this photograph was to show all

17 of the other damage that occurred when the projectile exploded. If you go

18 back to the previous photograph, it may be easier to actually see where

19 the courtyard is located.

20 Q. Very well. Let's go back to the lower photograph.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we -- sorry. Can I tender that into evidence.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P128, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, yes.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I might have

Page 1261

1 missed something. What about the previous photographs? Those have not

2 been tendered, have they, the photographs with the large-scale damage?

3 Those have not been tendered yet, have they? Is this the first photograph

4 that is tendered for admission?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so, Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct. Since this one has been marked,

7 I'm tendering it as a separate exhibit, and I intend to offer into

8 evidence the series of photographs once the witness has commented upon

9 them.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes.


12 Q. Okay, Witness 138, do you see that photograph on the seen where

13 the impact point on the roof is?

14 A. Yes, I do. You can see the courtyard much better than in the

15 previous photograph.

16 Q. Now, are you able to mark with your pen the direction in which the

17 projectile took once it impacted on the roof?

18 A. This is the path. Here it is where it flew over the edge of the

19 wall and continued down to eventually land inside the courtyard.

20 Q. Can you see on that photograph the roof of studio C, and if you

21 can, can you mark it with a C?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Perhaps if you just put the letter P by the -- by the first arrow

24 that you drew and then I will tender it into evidence.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 1262

1 Q. That's P or "projectile." Your Honour, I offer that into

2 evidence?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's accepted.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P129, Your Honours.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we move to the third page of the photographs,

6 please.

7 If it assists, I'm looking for page 00392144.

8 Actually, it's the page before that.

9 I apologise, Mr. President. That's not the one. I have hard

10 copies available if it is more efficient.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's coming up to 7.00. Can we get through

12 it?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's coming up to 7.00 p.m. Can we get through

15 this in a minute or two?

16 MR. SACHDEVA: The series of photographs, no.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The series. Then we'll adjourn.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I say that we'll resume tomorrow at 2.15.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day

22 of January, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.