Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1700

1 Wednesday, 7 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour -- Mr. President and Your

8 Honours.

9 Now doubt you have noticed that the witness who was here resembles

10 in no way the witness who was here when we finished yesterday. I assume

11 you have been informed that the witness who was started yesterday has

12 fallen ill and cannot continued today. We hope that he will be able to

13 continue tomorrow, but in the meantime we have substituted the next

14 witness.

15 Before the witness begins, I did -- because I think I'll only be

16 here during the first session today, we had intended -- we were supposed

17 to report to Your Honours with respect to agreed facts and intercepts, and

18 I believe the Defence would like to address Your Honours about it. And if

19 we could just do it briefly while I'm here, I would be grateful.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Firstly, we hope that the witness will

21 recover and will be well enough to continue his testimony tomorrow. But

22 in the event that is he not, I think it's better not to bring him. Just

23 bring him when you're fairly certain that he will be able to continue his

24 evidence to the end.

25 So, Mr. Tapuskovic, you want to address us on agreed facts

Page 1701

1 briefly.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All I can say is that we're going

3 to finalise this within a few days. There's no dispute among us there. I

4 am not going to talk about numbers, but at any rate there are a number of

5 facts that are indisputable which will be presented and submitted in the

6 course of the next few days.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is meant by "the next few days?" Today is

8 Wednesday.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By the end of this week.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you.

11 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, Your Honour, if I could just clarify that

12 that also applies to the intercepts by the end of this week, because that

13 was the other matter that was outstanding.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Do you want Mr. Tapuskovic to confirm that?

15 MR. WHITING: If he could, yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does that also apply to intercepts?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I delegated this

18 issue to my colleague, Ms. Branislava Isailovic, and before the witness

19 enters the courtroom we can state our position immediately. We can do it

20 even today.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't understand that. Before the witness?

22 Oh, you mean the intercept witness? I'm not clear as to what was meant.

23 Which witness are you talking about?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to avoid further

25 confusion, in the same spirit and sense that we said with respect to

Page 1702

1 indisputable facts, we're going to state our position regarding

2 intercepts.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes, I think that's clear enough

4 now. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 Ms. Edgerton, you're going to lead this witness. Let the witness

6 make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

12 Ms. Edgerton you may begin.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. If it's of any

14 assistance, I should note that this witness will testify about a sniping

15 incident which took place on March 6th, 1995, which we also refer to as SN

16 15.

17 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

18 Q. Could you please state your name for the record.

19 A. Tarik Zunic.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, I know you understand English quite well, so as we

21 go through the questions today, I'd like to remind you to please wait

22 until the translation into your own language is concluded before answering

23 the question just to make sure that everything is perfectly clear.

24 Could you tell us, are you working at present?

25 A. No, no.

Page 1703

1 Q. And what are you doing?

2 A. I'm finishing my studies, university studies.

3 Q. In what area?

4 A. The faculty of transport.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. EDGERTON: If we could pull up PT 2901, please. I'll be

7 referring to two documents, 2901 and then 2902. If you could make either

8 of those available on the monitor, I would be grateful.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It appears that we're having some problems with

10 the e-court system. If I could ask your indulgence for maybe 10, 15 more

11 seconds.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a hard copy?

13 MS. EDGERTON: I do have hard copies of the English language

14 versions available to me, Your Honour, and since both of those were signed

15 by the witness, we may be able to proceed with those.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We have them. The Chamber has them and I'd

17 be prepared to make at least one available to a party that doesn't have

18 one.

19 MS. EDGERTON: And I see on the monitor in front of me we have the

20 B/C/S version of 2901 available, so I think we're in fine shape, Your

21 Honours.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right.


24 Q. Mr. Zunic, on the screen in front of you, you see a copy of a

25 statement dated 10 November 1995 to officials of the OTP. Did you have an

Page 1704

1 opportunity to review this document prior to your testimony today?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, if the English language version could be

4 given back to the witness, because that's the version he signed.

5 Q. Now, on the English document, do you recognise your signature?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on the English document another signature appears immediately

8 below yours. Who's that?

9 A. That's my mother's signature.

10 Q. Do you recall whether this statement was read back to you in your

11 own language before you and your mother put your signatures to it?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Could I tender that as the first exhibit for this

14 witness, please.


16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P184, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is his mother's signature there?

18 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps, Your Honour, it's a question best asked of

19 the witness, but I note at the time he was, if my math is accurate, around

20 14 years of age.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let him say so. For the record.

22 Why is your mother's signature there as well as yours?

23 Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to offer an

25 explanation that could be helpful to the Chamber.

Page 1705

1 First of all, I would like to make a correction. The Prosecutor

2 said "around 14 years of age" and I think it's more 15 years of age.

3 According to the laws in force at the time, including in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, there was a so-called younger minor and under such

5 circumstances a parent must always be present when such a statement is

6 being made. That is what the law prescribed.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Yes.

8 Is that why your mother's signature is there? I still want to

9 hear from the witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the reason.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 And thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.

14 Could we move next to document 2902, please, an ICTY statement

15 signed by the witness, dated 21 April 2006. If it's of assistance,

16 perhaps he could be given the English language copy of that one. Thank

17 you.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, at different times on the screen in front of you

19 you've seen now the statement of 21 April 2006 in your language and an

20 English translation. Did you have an opportunity to review both those

21 documents prior to testifying today?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that second statement also read back to you in your own

24 language before signing?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 1706

1 Q. Now, with respect to both these statements, could you tell the

2 Trial Chamber whether you would answer those questions the same way if you

3 were to testify more fully today?

4 A. Yes, of course.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have the second document, 2902, marked as

6 an exhibit, please.


8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P185, Your Honours.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

10 I'd now like to move to a map which bears -- which is already in

11 evidence and bears the number P104, please.

12 I will note for Your Honours that the greater part of Mr. Zunic's

13 time here in court today will be spent dealing with the map and some

14 photographs, some illustrative photographs.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long is he scheduled for?

16 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was a little intimidated by your reference to

19 "the greater part" of his time spent here today.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps a bad choice of words, Your Honour. As

21 always, we will try to be as efficient as possible with the time allotted.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's 1.5, one and a half hours?

23 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sure we can be very efficient with that time,

24 Your Honours.

25 I see now the map in front of us. If I could have the right-hand

Page 1707

1 part of the map, the eastern part of the map, magnified, please. If you

2 could move the magnification a little further up towards the top of the

3 page, to the north, and a little bit further -- stop. And a little bit to

4 the east, please.

5 Q. Mr. Zunic, do you see the map in front of you on your monitor?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Can you find your school on this map?

8 A. It has to be moved a little bit to the left, please. Opposite

9 side. Yes, I can see my school.

10 Q. Now, using the electronic marking tool that's attached to the

11 monitor on the right, would you be able to mark your school with an X and

12 designate it with the number 1, please.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Thank you. Now, do you see your home on this map, the location of

15 your home, I should said.

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Could you please mark that and designate it with the number 2,

18 please.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Now, can you mark the route you took home from school on the day

21 you were shot, please.

22 A. Shall I mark the whole route between my home and the school, or

23 just a section thereof?

24 Q. I think it doesn't take any longer for you to mark the whole

25 route.

Page 1708

1 While you're doing that, could you tell us whether you had to

2 walk -- could you describe the walk that you took. Was it uphill,

3 downhill? Was the terrain flat?

4 A. One part of the route as far as Skenderija was flat, and towards

5 the Sedrenik neighbourhood, it was uphill.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, can you mark where you were shot.

7 MS. EDGERTON: I note for the record that the route between home

8 and school is the red line joining the numbers 1 and 2.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it possible to enlarge this map a

10 little?


12 Q. At this moment it would be done with difficulty. Can you mark the

13 approximate area with the number 3, please.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Now, with an arrow, could you mark the direction in which you were

16 walking when you were shot, to make it absolutely clear.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you. Now, was the front line, to the best of your

19 recollection, visible from the location where you were shot?

20 A. The lines at Spicasta Stijena were visible. These were Serbian

21 positions, whereas the Bosnian positions were not visible.

22 Q. All right. If the front line was visible, could you then use an

23 arrow to mark its direction from the location in which you were shot.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Now, could you mark the direction -- the arrow that marks the

Page 1709

1 direction in which you were walking with the number 4, please. That would

2 be the first arrow.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And the second arrow denoting the direction of the front line with

5 the number 5, please.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have that marked as the next exhibit,

9 please.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As P186, Your Honours.


13 Q. Now, Mr. --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the distance of the front line from the

15 place where you were shot?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say with 100 per cent

17 certainty, but it was between 700 and 900 metres, as the crow flies.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

20 If we could move now to a photograph which bears the number 2925,

21 and I will be asking Mr. Zunic to mark that photograph as well, if you

22 could remain there, please, and assist him.

23 My apologies. 2926, please.

24 Your indulgence for a moment. What I see ...

25 Can we, with this photograph, draw further back, please.

Page 1710

1 Your Honours, what seems to have been uploaded in e-court is a

2 zoomed-in version of the photograph I'd intended. However, I do have a

3 hard copy here, and perhaps we could move to the ELMO, in the interests of

4 being expeditious.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's do that.

6 MS. EDGERTON: In essence, it's the same photograph, however, a

7 cropped-off version of the centre, and I think there's an interest, again

8 for the sake of clarity and everyone's understanding, in seeing the

9 neighbourhood at this stage and then moving in somewhat closer.

10 Q. Mr. Zunic, could you look at the photograph beside you and tell

11 us, does this photo, among other things, depict the location at which you

12 were shot on March 6th, 1995?

13 A. Yes, it does.

14 Q. Is there anything different between this photo and how you recall

15 the area on that date?

16 A. Well, I can say that there are a few new houses that have been

17 built, that the trees have grown over the past 12 years, and that would be

18 it. And another thing, this photograph was taken in summertime and I was

19 wounded at the end of winter.

20 Q. Can you mark the location at which you were shot on this

21 photograph.

22 MS. EDGERTON: And can we somehow move the ELMO up a bit so --

23 thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks].


Page 1711

1 Q. Wonderful. Can you mark the location where you shot on this

2 photograph with an X and denote it with the number 1. You may need

3 another marker.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Is your family home depicted on this photograph?

6 A. Yes, you can see it.

7 Q. Would you also mark that, perhaps with the number 2.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Now, with an arrow, could you mark the direction in which you were

10 walking at the time you were shot and denote it with the number 3.

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. With an arrow, can you mark the direction of the front line.

13 A. [Marks].

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't see

16 anything on the photographs. There are no markings there.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, the first number 3 is not very

18 clear. Maybe he could remark that.

19 Have you pushed the ELMO button? Okay.


21 Q. And could you mark with the number 4 the arrow that you've just

22 used to designate the direction of the front line.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Were there any houses or other obstructions between that spot,

25 number 1, at which you were shot, and the area leading up to the front

Page 1712

1 line, to the best of your recollection?

2 A. As far as I can remember, there were no houses or other structures

3 between me and the front line while I was standing at the place where I

4 was shot.

5 Q. Do you remember during 1994 and 1995 seeing any Bosnian military

6 positions in locations around your home?

7 A. Nowhere in the vicinity were there any positions of the Bosnian

8 army.

9 Q. Do you ever recall seeing or hearing any Bosnian army or military

10 troop movements up to the front line past your house?

11 A. I heard, but I didn't see that there were troop movements mainly

12 by night but very rarely in day-time, almost never, because the army

13 avoided movements during day-time in order to avoid putting civilians at

14 risk.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have this photograph, that hard copy,

16 marked as the next exhibit, please. And I'll move on to 2926, which is

17 available electronically.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P187, Your

20 Honours.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, let's have the picture

22 back on the screen, on the ELMO.

23 Mr. Witness, when Judge Robinson asked you how far was the front

24 line from the location where you were, you said approximately 700 metres.

25 Am I correct?

Page 1713

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 700 to 900, but I'm not sure

2 because, in fact, I never saw it and I never read anything precise about

3 it.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. This front

5 line, what does it mean precisely? There was the ABiH and then on the

6 opposite side, the army of the Republika Srpska. Am I correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sorry, I didn't hear your answer,

9 Witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay. How far, approximately, was

12 the ABiH and the army of the Republika Srpska from the place where the

13 incident took place?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you perhaps put it more

15 clearly, because I really didn't understand.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Here's my question again: There's

17 a front line. There are two different warring factions. If there's an

18 army that's 700 metres away from the place where you were wounded, it

19 means that the other army, which is in the opposite side, is also at some

20 distance from you. What was that distance? Because we have two different

21 armies on the front line.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no way I can know it. I

23 have never been on that front line, nor have I ever seen it during the

24 war. I only saw it much later when I went to see those positions.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Just one question arising from this latest answer,

Page 1714

1 Mr. Zunic.

2 Q. You said that you have seen these positions much later. Do I take

3 it from that that you've, since the war, been to the location of the

4 former front line?

5 A. I only went to Spicasta Stijena because the rest was still full of

6 mines, and that area of Spicasta Stijena was cleared so you could go

7 there. I didn't see the rest.

8 Q. And your estimate of 700 to 900 metres, then, is based, to a

9 certain extent, on your having visited that location since the war; is

10 that correct?

11 A. On that basis, but also on the basis of stories I heard from

12 others, from other people.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could move now to the photograph 29 --

15 perfect, thank you. Is that 2925 or 2926? 2926. Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Zunic, on this photograph, are you able to see the location at

17 which you were shot with some greater clarity than in the previous

18 photograph?

19 A. I can see the place. It's almost the same. There's no great

20 difference.

21 Q. Again, could you mark it. With the number 1 as well, please.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. And can you mark again the direction from which the shots which

24 hit you were fired.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 1715

1 Q. With the number 2, please.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And now, again, to make things perfectly clear, as you were

4 walking, on which side of you did the front line lay?

5 A. You mean which side was I facing?

6 Q. Which side of you did the front line lay on? Where did it sit in

7 relation to your position?

8 A. It was to my left.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have this photograph marked as the next

10 exhibit, please.


12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P188, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, is the Prosecution going to bring

14 evidence as to how the front line was constituted, where the Serb position

15 was and where the ABiH position was? For example, in relation to this

16 incident, it would be important to know where the ABiH position was at the

17 time when this witness was shot. He doesn't know.

18 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honours. He doesn't know,

19 quite so, and yes, that is our intention. We will be calling that

20 evidence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 MS. EDGERTON: If we could move on now to the --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's a bit confusing, because the witness also

Page 1716

1 said that the positions were not visible from that point. So I'm just

2 waiting for your leading him to answering the question of whether he knew

3 where the positions were but just could not see them or whether he didn't

4 know where they were at all.

5 MS. EDGERTON: If I could go back to the transcript, Your Honours,

6 it's my recollection that the witness said the Bosnian army positions were

7 not visible from that point; however, he was able to see the Serb army

8 positions.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. But that would imply that he knew where the

10 Bosnian positions were but he just couldn't see them from there, and

11 there's a different.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, and we will get there at the

13 time of the next exhibit, which is PT 2716. It's a further photograph.

14 Q. Do you see this photograph on the screen in front of you,

15 Mr. Zunic?

16 A. I see the same picture as before.

17 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies. We'll be playing this photograph

18 from here.

19 Q. Do you see a new picture on your screen, Mr. Zunic?

20 A. On the other screen, yes, I see it.

21 Q. All right. Now, does the marking of the lower part of this

22 photograph accurately reflect the location at which you were shot on March

23 6, 1995?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. Do you see a new photograph on the picture

Page 1717

1 in front of you?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the previous

6 photograph, the position where he was standing was not drawn in, although

7 the Prosecutor asked the witness to mark it.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I was going to make the same point, because

9 the -- you have presented a photograph with a position marked, already

10 marked, and you have asked the witness whether that marked position

11 represents the area where he was shot. It is the witness who should give

12 the evidence as to where he was shot and then you mark the position,

13 unless some evidence was led previously that the area marked is equivalent

14 to the area in relation to which he has already testified as being the

15 place where he was shot. Otherwise, it's very leading.

16 MS. EDGERTON: If we could move back, then, to the photograph

17 immediately prior to this one.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, generally, I should say that I will not allow

19 markings which are not made by the witness to be put to the witness as

20 markings relating to his incident. The evidence must emanate from the

21 witness.

22 MS. EDGERTON: What I propose to do, then, Your Honour, is skip

23 over this photograph entirely and move on to the next one. I think that

24 might be more expeditious and take us to the point here.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, can you look at the photograph in front of you and

Page 1718

1 tell us whether this reflects the location at which you were shot on March

2 6, 1995.

3 A. Yes, with a margin of error of a metre or two.

4 Q. Is there anything different between this photo and how recall the

5 area 12 years ago?

6 A. Yes, of course. The houses have been renovated. The trees are

7 green and they have grown over the past 12 years.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.


10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let him show the place where he

11 was standing when he was shot on this photograph and let him mark it.

12 Because on the previous photograph, he showed us that he was standing in a

13 field. Let him show on this photo whether he was standing in a field or

14 on the road.


16 Witness, where were you standing when you were shot?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I first say that I wasn't

18 standing at all --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where were you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as this gentleman suggests. I

21 was moving, and at that point I was in the spot marked by 1; not in the

22 valley, not on a surface covered with grass, but on this street.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let him show that

25 spot on that photograph, the place where he was standing.

Page 1719

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please show us that spot where you were, where

2 you were moving, not standing. You were walking, I presume.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Keeping in mind, Your Honour, that this is the

4 beginning of the 360-degree panoramic photograph which has been the

5 subject, I understand, of much discussion in this courtroom already.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but all these matters are matters of

7 contention and so the witness is not to be led to evidence relating to it.

8 On the photograph that we have on the screen, can you indicate

9 where you were? If not, then we can move the photograph, because, it is,

10 as you said, a photograph of 360 degrees.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I've not made myself totally clear. , this

12 being the 360, is not a photograph he can mark. However, the previous two

13 obviously were. If there's a need, I can have a series of still

14 photographs made very quickly so that they can be marked.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what can he say about this photograph? If

16 he can't mark it, let him --

17 Can you say in words anything that is relevant to your incident?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a new photograph showing

19 this little shop and the fence. That's where I was, a metre forward or

20 backwards, but that is with 100 per cent certainty the spot where I was as

21 I was moving towards my home. That's where I was when I was shot.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us a little more specifically where

23 on the photograph? Because I see the shop and I see a fence.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of this fence, the

25 front of the picture, to the right side.

Page 1720

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What's your point?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just want him to mark that spot

4 where he says he was standing on this photograph.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not technically possible.

6 Is that so?

7 MS. EDGERTON: No. And I would have thought the two -- the

8 markings on the two previous photographs might have obviated the need at

9 this point.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you will, of course, be

11 cross-examining and you can raise this point. But from what I understand,

12 you can have a still made which could be marked.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that wouldn't take very long?

15 MS. EDGERTON: I'd have to make some inquiries, but I would hope

16 to have it -- I would hope to have it in the next session.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will require that, that you produce

20 the still.

21 MS. EDGERTON: And at the time we take the break later on this

22 morning, Your Honour, I think we can achieve that. We may ask for five

23 minutes longer to be able to make the copies. Of course, they won't be

24 electronically uploaded, but we'll have copies available for Your Honours

25 and for the parties.

Page 1721

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 MS. EDGERTON: What I propose to do, then, Your Honour, is to

3 leave this portion of my questioning with respect to this panoramic

4 photograph until after the break.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I can only observe that the witness was

7 scheduled for an hour and a half on both sides, I think.

8 Let's proceed. Let's proceed, because you have already

9 demonstrated the place where he was shot. If it can be produced, then let

10 it be produced. But we shouldn't waste time. It may be that the

11 photograph will have to be evaluated by the Chamber in light of the

12 evidence presented.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Fine. I misunderstood Your Honours. I understood

14 that I was to produce a photograph for the witness to mark. At this point

15 we will continue with the examination-in-chief for the comments of the

16 witness.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, Witness, you've already indicated a number of times that this

20 does reflect the location at which you were shot in 1995.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if I can ask that this photograph be rotated

22 to the right, slowly.

23 Q. Could you tell us, as we move through the photograph, if you see

24 the location which you've marked on the previous photographs, 188 and 187,

25 as being the direction from which the shot which hit you was fired.

Page 1722

1 A. Right there.

2 Q. Now, when you say "Right there" --

3 A. No, I meant to say stop.

4 Q. And could you describe to us what you see on the photograph at

5 this moment.

6 A. Well, approximately beyond that second pillar supporting the

7 fence, you can see the top, the peak, of the Spicasta Stijena from where

8 the shot came.

9 Q. Now, you've described earlier that the front line was visible from

10 the location at which you were shot?

11 A. Yes, of course.

12 Q. Now, do you see that location, what you believe to have been the

13 front line depicted on this photograph?

14 A. From here you can only see the Serb positions that were on

15 Spicasta Stijena.

16 Q. Based on your later visits to the front lines and your

17 observations from this day, are you able to offer any guidance as to where

18 the Bosnian positions were in relation to the Serb positions?

19 A. I could, but only roughly. I could not do it with 100 per cent

20 certainty.

21 Q. Which positions lay closer --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask,

24 in order to facilitate cross-examination, to make another freeze from this

25 photograph regarding this point so that the witness could show the

Page 1723

1 positions briefly, to make another freeze which the witness could mark.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us see where the Prosecutor is going and then

3 we'll decide on that.


5 Q. Mr. Zunic, you indicated that since the war you have been to the

6 front line, the former front line.

7 A. I said I only went to Spicasta Stijena because the other areas are

8 full of mines. It's dangerous to walk there.

9 Q. Based on your observations, which faction lay closer to the

10 location at which you were shot?

11 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

12 Q. Which of the two warring factions was closer to the location at

13 which you were shot?

14 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was closer.

15 Q. Based on your observations, do you have any idea why Bosnian army

16 positions weren't visible at the time you were shot?

17 A. Because they were at the very foot of Spicasta Stijena.

18 Q. And then in relation to them, based on your observations, where

19 were --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it observations or what he was told? When did

21 he go there?

22 When did you go to the front line?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the year 2000.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And were the front lines there then?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can see some remnants.

Page 1724

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you go by yourself?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, with friends.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: How were you able to determine where the front

4 lines was? Just by observation or was it based on what you were told, or

5 maybe by both?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I walked all the way up to the line

7 previously held by the Serb army where you can see the bunkers, the

8 trenches, and all of their positions that are now within the territory of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


12 Q. And to add on to what His Honour has been asking you, at the time

13 of the incident, at the time you were shot, did you have any knowledge of

14 where the front lines were; and, if so, what was the source of that

15 knowledge?

16 A. The first thing, you could hear on the radio that people were

17 telling; plus I could see it with my own eyes every day as I was walking.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Unless Your Honours have further questions at this

19 moment, I propose to move on.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please do.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, can we talk about the jacket you were wearing at

23 the time that you were shot, which you describe in your statements as

24 green.

25 A. Yes, that's what I said. It was not an olive-drab green. It was

Page 1725

1 just a normal green, let's say, Benetton green.

2 Q. Were you carrying anything at the time?

3 A. Yes. I had a blue rucksack with my school books and other things

4 on my right shoulder.

5 Q. Could I ask you right now to stand up and show the Court how you

6 were carrying the rucksack at the time you were shot.

7 A. I carried it over my right shoulder and I was holding it with my

8 right hand. Is this all right?

9 Q. Yes, it is. And now if you could just indicate, where, in

10 relation to you, was the front line?

11 A. I was moving in this direction and the front line was to my left.

12 Q. Thank you. Take your seat again, please.

13 Now, I note the information in both your statements that you were

14 hit in the right hand; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, I was hit in the right hand.

16 Q. Now, you also describe bullet-holes in the left front part of your

17 jacket at heart level, and I wonder if you could explain for the Trial

18 Chamber how this happened.

19 A. That happened while I was walking and carrying my rucksack on my

20 right shoulder. The bullets that came from Spicasta Stijena first entered

21 the left part of my jacket, exited through the right-hand side of my

22 jacket, then hit my hand and then exited my hand. I was lucky to have

23 walked not so fast; otherwise, I would have been dead.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Could we move to a document on the monitor,

25 please. It bears the number 00150, and it's available in two languages,

Page 1726

1 B/C/S and English.

2 Q. Mr. Zunic, on the right-hand side of the screen in front of you,

3 do you recognise the document that you see?

4 A. Yes, I do. This is the findings following my admission to

5 hospital.

6 Q. Now, could I ask you to just read in your language the sentence

7 that begins with the word "Ranjen ..."

8 A. Can I please ask for this to be a little bit enlarged. Thank you

9 very much.

10 "Civilian wounded by a sniper bullet in Sedrenik. Perforating

11 wound. Entry point in distal part of right underarm from the radial side;

12 exit point in the thenar area. Status show no abnormalities."

13 Do I have to continue?

14 Q. No, thank you.

15 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if we can have that marked as the next

16 exhibit, please.


18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P189, Your Honours.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to have the witness clarify something.

21 In answer to counsel, you said that the BiH army was nearer to

22 you, to the place where you were shot, than the Serb army, but the BiH

23 army wasn't visible. In terms of the topography, can you explain why,

24 although being nearer, the BiH army wasn't visible?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours.

Page 1727

1 First of all, it was only logical for our army to be closer to us

2 than the Serbian forces. Secondly, Spicasta Stijena is almost vertical

3 with respect to this plateau where our army was and with respect to the

4 whole topography of this area. Therefore, they were on a higher ground

5 and they could be visible with respect to our army. And they also had a

6 very good view of the whole neighbourhood.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the Serb army was on higher ground than the

8 BiH army.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And between the BiH army and the place where you

11 were shot, what was the topography like which made the BiH army not

12 visible?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That ground that reached as far as

14 the BH positions looked like a mild plateau with some lower parts, all the

15 way up to Spicasta Stijena. So there was a very mild ascent moving

16 towards Spicasta Stijena.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks very much.


19 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, after you were hit and laid down on the ground and

20 until you were rescued, do you recall whether or not there was any further

21 gun-fire?

22 A. Of course I remember. They kept shooting. And they didn't allow

23 me to escape because they knew that they had shot me and that I was lying

24 there, and they kept shooting. I could hear the bullets and the shots

25 being fired.

Page 1728

1 Q. If you could hear the bullets and the shots being fired, do you

2 remember whether those were single shots or bursts of fire?

3 A. Both. That's what I can tell you.

4 Q. Mr. Zunic, have you lived in that area the whole war?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Was this the first time you had been shot at?

7 A. Well, it wasn't the first time. It happened, I think, on two

8 occasions that I had been fired on.

9 Q. Do you recall having been fired on from any other direction than

10 what you noted as being the front line?

11 A. Well, I don't remember, actually. They shot at us, myself

12 included, from Spicasta Stijena only.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I don't have any further questions of

14 Mr. Zunic.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. As soon as you get the -- as soon as

16 you have the still, let us know.

17 Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 I will exercise due care of the fact that the period when this

20 incident happened that this witness is testifying to now as an adult, but

21 I will have to point out to him a large number of facts relating to this

22 event.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] In order to avoid any lengthy introductions,

25 Mr. Witness, I know that at the time you were a very young man. My name

Page 1729

1 is Branislav Tapuskovic, an attorney-at-law from Belgrade, and I have to

2 ask you about all these things that you have been telling us today. I

3 will do my best to pose direct questions, and whenever possible I would

4 appreciate if you can answer me with either a yes or no.

5 My first question is as follows: When the war broke out, you were

6 11 or 12 years old, and when you were shot and wounded, as you described,

7 and given that I know the year in which you were born, you were 14 years

8 and 6 months old. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Let me read now from the Prosecution exhibit already entered as

11 such - and I also will intended to tender it as a Defence exhibit, which

12 is now not necessary any longer - that is, your statement of the 10th of

13 November which you gave in the presence of your mother.

14 Let me draw your attention to what you said in this statement and

15 then what you said in the statement dated the 21st of April, 2006, when

16 you were already an adult, which is Prosecution Exhibit P185.

17 With regard to the 65 ter document entered as 00150, but as

18 Prosecution Exhibit P18, which refers to this medical paper, and in the

19 bundle of these documents there are two more under 65 ter numbers 02924.

20 Can you confirm this for me, that the first statement that you

21 made you had given at the security office without the presence of your

22 mother?

23 A. Are you referring to the statement given on the 11th of March,

24 1995, which is five days after I had been shot?

25 Q. Do you remember having this conversation?

Page 1730

1 A. No, I don't remember, but it's probably the case.

2 Q. I will remind you of that, then. Let me start with one detail

3 that you mentioned on the 10th of November, in the presence of your

4 mother.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can pull this up on the

6 screens. That's Prosecution Exhibit 184, page 1.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is actually page 2, because

9 page 1 are your personal details. So page 2.

10 Your Honours, please deduct time from my allocated time because I

11 made a mistake. What I wanted to present to the witness was P185, page

12 2. That's his statement given on the 21st of April, 2006, as an adult

13 man. And if we can have this on our screens, please. Page 2.

14 Q. Do you see your statement that you gave in April 2006? And if you

15 can look at paragraph 2.

16 A. Yes, I see it.

17 Q. I'm going to read the second passage to you.

18 "The high school that I was attending in 1995 was located in the

19 Pofalici area of Sarajevo. It was a regular school building, and it took

20 about 45 minutes to an hour to walk it."

21 Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we have on the screen

24 the photograph P187 which shows the city map. Prosecution Exhibit P187

25 with the markings of his route to and from school.

Page 1731

1 MS. EDGERTON: I think that's properly P104.

2 THE REGISTRAR: P187 is actually the hard copy that was marked by

3 the witness on the ELMO.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. P187 is the photograph. The unmarked city

5 map is P104, and P186 is the marked city mark.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, then, can we have the

7 photograph that the witness has marked, where he indicated the route that

8 he took, as he explained to the Prosecutor. Well, this is, again,

9 detrimental to my case and let this time be deduced from my allocated

10 time. Do we have this photograph?

11 Q. Can you see it?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Since you confirmed a minute ago, and you said in 2006, that you

14 had attended secondary school in 1995 in Pofalici, can you please draw a

15 line from your place of residence, a straight line without any curves, to

16 Pofalici. Can you do that for me, as you did here.

17 A. You mean as the crow flies?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Can you imagine it yourself?

20 Q. No, I am not going to imagine it.

21 A. Do you want me to draw the line from my school -- from my home to

22 Pofalici?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

25 Witness, you must observe a pause between question and answer -

Page 1732

1 Mr. Tapuskovic knows this - for the benefit of the interpreters.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'll pay attention in

3 the future.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, proceed.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me not waste time on this. I

6 wanted something else. What's important is that the witness said that the

7 school is in Pofalici. Now at this point it doesn't matter.

8 Q. I have to ask you something now about your statement that you

9 remember you gave at the security services centre in Sarajevo on the 11th

10 of March.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 02924, dated the 11th

12 of March, 1995. It has been translated. And may I kindly ask for this

13 document to be placed on the screen. 09 -- in fact, 02924, dated the 11th

14 of March.

15 Q. Do you see that document?

16 A. I don't see it.

17 Q. Official Note, dated 11 March 1995; can you see it?

18 A. I don't.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we have that document on the screen.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 3. Page 3 of that document.

21 Q. Can you see the B/C/S version?

22 A. No, not yet.

23 Q. We see the English version on the screen but not the B/C/S one.

24 A. Precisely.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have it.

Page 1733

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: There seems to be a problem with the system, but

3 the Prosecutor has a hard copy, so that can be placed on the ELMO, the

4 well-tried and ancient procedure.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Can you see it now? I'm not going to read all of it, but I'll

7 read the last paragraph. If the Court wishes me to do so, I can read all

8 of it. But the inspector received the following statement from you five

9 days after the event:

10 "On 6 March 1995, at around 1300 hours, I was returning home from

11 school and I was in Rogina Street. When I same to Sedrenik Street, I

12 heard a gunshot fired from the aggressor's positions at Spicasta Stijena,

13 followed by a sharp pain in my right hand where I sustained an entry and

14 exit wound. I immediately ran for cover and lay down on the ground

15 calling for help. Soon after, members of the UNPROFOR came up to me."

16 Is that the statement you gave five days after the tragedy?

17 A. It may be, but I don't remember it.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 I would now like to show you another document, which has the 65

20 ter number 02924, of the 11th of March, 1995, which is before the

21 statement I've just quoted from.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I know that there is an English

23 translation. I need page 3. And if we have the same problem with the

24 system, maybe the Prosecution can show the witness that document.

25 Since it's not on the screen, can I please ask the Prosecution to

Page 1734

1 give him that document.

2 Q. Do you see it, Mr. Zunic? Do you see that this document is dated

3 the 10th of March, 1995, taken in the security services? And it says:

4 "On 6 March 1995, this service was informed that in Sedrenik

5 Street, close to the supermarket, a bullet fired from the aggressor's

6 position wounded Tarik Zunic."

7 Is that what it says here?

8 A. It's not the --

9 Q. No, it's not yours. You didn't say it. But this is what I want

10 to ask --

11 A. Go ahead.

12 Q. "Bilal Sulejman, an officer from the genocide department, was

13 informed about this. But what matters is this: From the aggressor's

14 position, Tarik Zunic was hit but we could not go to the spot. Instead,

15 we went to the clinical sector where the doctor on duty at the orthopaedic

16 ward, we found out that the wounds sustained were lighter in the area of

17 the right hand. It is, in fact, an entry and exit wound through the

18 hand."

19 Was it really an entry and exit wound in the hand?

20 A. Yes. The bullet came into the palm of my hand and came out in the

21 area of my wrist.

22 Q. My other question is that there are conflicting descriptions; one

23 is that there was heavy gun-fire at Spicasta Stijena and another report

24 says there was just an individual shot.

25 A. As I was walking back, there was gun-fire when I set out, but when

Page 1735

1 I decided, as a 14-year-old, that there was a lull, I thought that there

2 would be -- that it was less dangerous to go on.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

4 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I hear a great deal of

5 overlap between Mr. Zunic and Mr. Tapuskovic, and I have some concern with

6 respect to the English translation in that case. I wonder if they could

7 be reminded to leave a space between questions and answers.


9 May I remind you again to observe a pause between question and

10 answer. It's natural, since you're speaking the same language, to

11 overlap, but you have to observe the pause so that the interpreter can be

12 accurate in the interpretation.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just want to

14 finish with the medical document and then it's time for the break. It's

15 P189; it's a medical document. It's the same document that you just had a

16 look at, the medical one. The medical document. Yes, right, that's it.

17 That is the one.

18 Q. The Prosecutor showed it to you a moment ago. It says, from the

19 spot where the Prosecutor asked you to start reading:

20 "Wounded by a sniper bullet in Sedrenik Street as a civilian.

21 Entry and exit wound. Entry point in the distal part of the right lower

22 arm from the radial side."

23 My question is, why did you, as a child, need to be specifically

24 described as a civilian, since you were 14 years old? Why was it

25 necessary to stress that you were a civilian? How do you explain that?

Page 1736

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, how is he to say why some officer

2 described him in a particular manner?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, for everybody's information,

9 copies -- still photographs representing every line of view in the 360

10 panorama that we had been dealing with earlier have been made and

11 distributed. And I should note, they appear in sequence, if one was

12 moving to the right, clockwise, in the photograph --


14 MS. EDGERTON: -- or in the panoramic video, and that's the

15 sequence of them. And I have been reminded that I failed to have the

16 panorama -- to request the panorama be marked as an exhibit during my

17 examination-in-chief.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be marked.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As P190, Your Honours.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

21 If I may, you may note two photographs rather similar --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we do.

23 MR. WHITING: -- of the wooded area. They are not identical

24 photographs, just perhaps indicating 1 or 2 metres difference, to try and

25 give Your Honours and my friends the clearest idea of the topography

Page 1737

1 possible.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

3 Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, you may, of course, utilise the stills in

4 your cross-examination.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 With your leave, I would like the registrar to admit as Defence

7 exhibits those two documents, 02924, Official Notes from the 10th of

8 March, 1995, and the 11th of March, 1995. The number I quoted was a 65

9 ter number, and these Official Notes were made by the security service of

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they are admitted.

12 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 02924 will become Defence Exhibit

13 D43, Your Honours.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge Robinson, you

15 are quite right. The question I just asked before the break is a question

16 better addressed to the doctor that I know will be coming to testify. But

17 there is a question I can ask the witness based on this medical document,

18 and that is the following:

19 Q. Mr. Zunic, you have seen this document and it says that this is an

20 entry and exit wound, whose entry point is in the distal part of the right

21 lower arm, on the radial side. Can you show us where that spot is,

22 according to you, because this is different from what you said before.

23 You said you were shot through the palm of your hand. Can you explain?

24 A. I continue to assert that I was shot in the palm of my hand, and I

25 can show it to you, but I do not understand the Latin terms in the medical

Page 1738

1 report and that's not something I can explain.

2 Q. I don't know where the radial side is, but I know what the right

3 lower arm is. The medical document says you were hit in the right lower

4 arm, in our Bosnian/Serb, whatever you want to call it, language. How can

5 you explain that?

6 A. I didn't write that; the doctor did. And I still have the scar

7 which shows exactly where I was shot. You can see the entry and the exit

8 points.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I now ask for the 65 ter

11 number 2901 to be shown. It's a document tendered by the Prosecutor under

12 number 184. It's a statement dated the 10th of November, 1995. Can we

13 see it on the screen. And I will try to be as brief as possible and ask

14 just a few questions.

15 Q. This is page 1, Mr. Tarik. Can we see page 2. Can I ask you,

16 since this document is now before you, the sixth paragraph begins with the

17 words "I believe ..." Do you see it?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. I will read it to you. "I believe that the shots were fired from

20 Spicasta Stijena because it is only from there that the snipers can reach

21 targets in the street."

22 So my question is: You said "I believe" in this statement, which

23 seems to indicate you were not sure; is that correct?

24 A. I still believe today that the shots were fired from Spicasta

25 Stijena because it was not possible for the shots to come from any other

Page 1739

1 side. And, anyway, the snipers fired all the time from that direction,

2 from Spicasta Stijena.

3 Q. Thank you. But let us read on, and I'm quoting you: "They can

4 reach targets in the street."

5 Do you assert here that only from Spicasta Stijena can shots reach

6 the spot where you were? Can there be no further spot that can reach that

7 target?

8 A. Possibly.

9 Q. You continued to say:

10 "It's possible also to fire at Trebevic, an area held by the Serbs

11 but not with small-calibre weapons. Only anti-aircraft guns can

12 efficiently fire from Trebevic."

13 My question is: Can we, if we read this, conclude that from

14 Trebevic it's not possible to fire with small-calibre weapons?

15 A. You can fire from anything you like.

16 Q. Let us not overlap.

17 A. We are not overlapping. You can fire from wherever you like.

18 Q. But you said it's possible to fire at targets in the street also

19 from Trebevic, an area held by the Serbs, but not from small-calibre

20 weapons. I'm asking you if what you said is correct.

21 A. I can say it is correct because I heard it from grown-ups who knew

22 more about weapons. And as for the area where I was hit, it was not

23 visible from Trebevic. It is clearly stated that the street where I was

24 hit is visible from Trebevic, at least a part of it. What is written here

25 reflects exactly what I said.

Page 1740

1 Q. But not by a sniper, by guns.

2 A. But not efficiently. That's what people said in view of the

3 distance and the range and the visibility.

4 Q. So from that sniping rocket, it was not possible to have a range

5 all the way up to the town.

6 A. The range was there.

7 Q. Speaking of the bullet that hit you, you said here in paragraph 5,

8 and is this correct:

9 "I immediately recognised that the shots were fired from the M-84

10 machine-gun. The sound is distinct from the sound of ordinary guns. I

11 can easily make the difference because I heard so many shots."

12 Now I'm asking you, you know very well what this automatic rifle,

13 M-84, is. Do you know what it is?

14 A. I don't know what that automatic rifle is. I've never seen it.

15 Q. I understand, but you said here that as soon as you heard the

16 shots, you recognised them as coming from an automatic rifle, M-84.

17 A. Yes, because I lived there. I survived. I listened to people

18 older than me all the time. It was on the radio all the time. There were

19 so-called sowers of death. And the automatic rifle is M-84 and I was able

20 to distinguish between the sounds.

21 Q. Very well. Four paragraphs later on:

22 "While I was there, I discovered that I had two bullet-holes on

23 the front side of my jacket at the level of my heart. I suppose that the

24 bullet made those holes when it passed through my jacket."

25 My question is: In the first days you claimed that you were hit

Page 1741

1 by only one bullet. How come you are now speaking of several bullets?

2 A. I still continue to say that only one bullet hit me, and this is

3 an error and I told them it was an error. They told me, the people who

4 drafted this, that it was not important and it would be corrected later.

5 But I see you have picked on this. There were two bullet-holes, one entry

6 on the left side and another exit hole on the right side of my jacket.

7 Q. And it continued through your hand?

8 A. Yes, through the palm of my hand.

9 Q. I'm asking you: Can it be said that you were wearing a vest at

10 the time protecting your chest and the body from bullets that can

11 immediately kill? Can we say that you had a vest that you received in

12 order to protect your life?

13 A. I don't know how you came up with that. I never had that vest,

14 nor did I ever wear it.

15 Q. I have to suggest this, because you know very well -- you knew

16 very well at the time what an automatic rifle M-84 is, and from all you

17 say here I have to conclude that you may have also taken part in defending

18 your country from the aggressor.

19 A. Concerning the M-84 automatic rifle, I knew about it from stories

20 of others, from the radio, from the sounds I heard myself. And I was not

21 involved in the army because I was too young, and it never crossed my mind

22 to take part.

23 Q. Tell me, in that territory, between the spot where you were hit

24 and where that ridge of the rock is, were the positions divided in such a

25 way that in one set of the trenches there were troops of the army of

Page 1742

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina and in another set of trenches, on higher ground,

2 there were troops of the army of Republika Srpska?

3 A. Yes, roughly speaking, and that's only normal.

4 Q. From these positions, from these trenches, when you finally went

5 to see the location ten years later, what was the distance between these

6 trenches?

7 A. They were divided only by Spicasta Stijena at this particular

8 point, because the Serbian positions were on the top and the Bosnian

9 positions were at the foot of Spicasta Stijena. I still cannot tell you

10 what the difference is. I never measured it, nor have I ever read any

11 relevant data.

12 Q. All right. You couldn't pass on the other side because of the

13 minefields, but on this side there were no minefields, in order to prevent

14 BiH army soldiers from being killed. You managed somehow to reach that

15 location later on. What is the difference between these positions in

16 metres?

17 A. I went to those positions at Spicasta Stijena from the side that,

18 during the war, was held by the Serbs, which means from down, upwards.

19 There were no mines because, of course, nobody in their right mind would

20 plant mines in their area. I didn't climb Spicasta Stijena from the BH

21 army side because it is nearly impossible.

22 Q. That makes sense. But I'm asking you the distance in metres.

23 A. I'm telling you again, I don't know. I never measured it, nor

24 have I ever read anything about it.

25 Q. In peacetime, on the other side of Stijena, who used to live? Did

Page 1743

1 you have any friends on the other side of Stijena, your peers with whom

2 you played football, who were just living behind the rock?

3 A. You mean the part held by the Serbian army?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. And there were people who had been living there for a long time.

7 A. Probably, yes.

8 Q. Were these people also defending themselves? Did these people on

9 the other side remain in trenches in order to protect their own lives?

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm just wondering at this point

11 where this is going and how the witness can possibly be expected to

12 comment on what people --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, there is merit in that.

14 Move on to another area, Mr. Tapuskovic. This is not getting us

15 anywhere.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have,

17 hopefully, enough time to tackle this again.

18 Q. I wanted to ask you, when you visited these positions many years

19 later that had been held --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could the transcript please attribute my last

21 statement to me.

22 Please continue.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. From the positions that you saw many years later that had been

25 held by the BH army also had a commanding view of the whole of Sarajevo;

Page 1744

1 is that correct?

2 A. I have to repeat it again: I never visited the positions of BH

3 army. I only visited the positions -- Serb-held positions at Spicasta

4 Stijena.

5 Q. Very well. I understand. But from the place where you were hit

6 and from the place where your house was, were you not on the hill that

7 overlooks the whole of Sarajevo; Sedrenik, in other words?

8 A. My house, you cannot see the town at all from my house. Sedrenik,

9 of course, has a good view of the whole of Sarajevo.

10 Q. Thank you very much. From your second statement, I'm going to

11 focus on a few things.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 2902, a statement given on the

13 21st of April, 2006. Just a couple of things. So let us start from page

14 2. Prosecution Exhibit 185, page 2.

15 Q. Can you see the beginning?

16 A. Not yet.

17 Q. Well, the page is there. This is page 1. Please take a look at

18 paragraph 4 from the top. Let's skip some other things. It

19 begins "Before ..." Can you see it?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. Here you say as follows:

22 "Before the UN arrived, some people tried to help me but one of

23 them was hit. I don't know whether he was killed or wounded at that time,

24 but I know that he eventually died."

25 Can you explain how come that which you hadn't mentioned ever

Page 1745

1 before but only in 2006, to be precise on the 21st of April, you are now

2 saying that there was a man who was killed next to you? First, can you

3 tell me, is this true, what you say here?

4 A. What I say here is true, but I didn't say that he was killed. I

5 said that I didn't know whether he was wounded or killed, but later in my

6 conversations with my parents I heard that this men died many years later

7 of natural causes. I think that's a sufficient explanation.

8 Q. Thank you. Yes, it is sufficient, but I have to be very careful

9 how to address you, but I have to ask you directly. So when were you

10 telling the truth, on the first day, on the fifth day after the incident,

11 or ten years later? So how come you are making these kinds of claims

12 here? Is it fair to say that you made this up?

13 A. What I said on the first day and ten years later and what I'm

14 saying now, I'm telling the truth. This information can be checked with

15 the family of this man. When I made the first statement, nobody asked me,

16 and you can see that it contains fewer details than the later one. But

17 when I made my second statement, the investigator was much more thorough

18 and asked me more questions, which you can see from the statement itself.

19 Q. So one can deduce that you spoke the truth only in 2006, the truth

20 in --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, Mr. Tapuskovic, I don't believe that is a

22 fair question, because the witness has explained that he was not asked in

23 1995 about that incident, and he even went on to say that the investigator

24 in 2006 was more thorough in the questions put to him.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am convinced that

Page 1746

1 it is true that more people even had been killed. I may suggest that even

2 though he was a young men, he was in a trench as well. But I wanted to

3 ask him something different.

4 Q. I'm putting it to you that you were in trenches as well.

5 A. You are entitled to do that, absolutely, but this is absolutely

6 not true.

7 Q. Thank you. But what I insist on is that you maintained all the

8 time here in this chamber that you heard only one bullet being fired. How

9 do you explain that?

10 A. In my first statement, that's what it says, and I read it. That's

11 what I said because I was still under the influence and in shock. And I

12 maintain that shooting was still going on. Some people were trying to

13 help me. And only after an APC came to pick me up and take me to the

14 hospital did the shooting stop.

15 Q. Before I show you a few photographs, let me ask you this: On your

16 way to school every day -- in the last paragraph on this page, you

17 say: "In the part of the town where I lived, there were no trenches or

18 military installations or barracks."

19 So you still maintain that, in spite of what we heard earlier from

20 you, there were no trenches, no guns or things of that nature; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Of course, there were trenches on the front line, because I was

23 relatively close to the front line. If you deem this to be incorrect,

24 then let it be so. But I was referring to the proper neighbourhood where

25 we lived. There were no military installations.

Page 1747

1 Q. Very well. On your way to school in 1995, did you take this route

2 often? And was there less shooting at that time and that is why you were

3 able to attend school? Is it fair to say that?

4 A. Well, I wouldn't put it like that. There was shooting, but

5 sometimes there were some lulls in order to induce the civilians to get

6 relaxed so that they can target us again.

7 Q. On this 45-minute walk or one-hour walk along the front line, did

8 you ever see any guns, weaponry, tanks, or any other heavy weaponry or

9 mortars, or didn't you?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I don't think there's ever been any

12 evidence today about this walk to and from school being along the front

13 line, as mentioned here on page 48, lines 20 to 23. I don't think that

14 characterises the evidence properly.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have to agree, Mr. Tapuskovic. It doesn't

16 reflect the evidence.

17 So the question, then, would be, on this 45-minute walk or

18 one-hour walk, did you ever see any guns, weaponry, tanks or any other

19 heavy weaponry or mortars?

20 What is your answer to that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is, on my way to school,

22 other people moved, not only students, and there was no weaponry or

23 military installations at all.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So we may deduce that military installations were only on

Page 1748

1 hilltops, or not?

2 A. I cannot tell you where the military installations were. I truly

3 don't know. And as for hilltops, I also don't know. I know that they

4 were held by the Serbian side.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the photograph

6 entered as P188 from 65 ter number 02926.

7 Q. Do you see this photograph?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have it enlarged.

10 Q. You marked the place where you were standing at the moment when

11 you were shot.

12 A. I was moving towards my house. I'm telling you again, I wasn't

13 standing. I was shot while I was walking.

14 Q. Please, yes, that's what you said. That's correct. But when the

15 Prosecutor showed this photograph to you, you indicated the place where

16 you were shot; is that true?

17 A. Yes, that's true.

18 Q. If that is true, then you were not at all on the street but you

19 were in the field in front of these trees, because if you had been behind

20 the trees you would not have been hit by a sniper.

21 A. I don't know if you can see where this X is, or are you just

22 looking at this line to the left from X that touches upon this field? But

23 X is precisely on the street. And on top of that, this picture was taken

24 12 years later and everyone knows that all these trees have grown within

25 these 12 years. In addition to that, it was March, when there were no

Page 1749

1 leaves on the branches, and everyone knows that.

2 Q. Mr. Witness, I have never mentioned leaves. You indicated the

3 place where you were standing. It's not in the street; it's in the

4 field. And you just confirmed that it's true. I'm asking you again:

5 Were you in the street or in the field? I'm not interested in trees at

6 all.

7 A. I was on the street, as I said earlier, and this X signifies

8 precisely that this is a street, not a field.

9 Q. A few seconds ago you said that you were at this place and you

10 never showed me the field.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Anyway, Your Honours, I don't

12 wish to waste any more time. We have the photograph --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The difficulty is the X is very big. Perhaps if

14 he had been asked to simply pinpoint just with a dot. But the X, as it is

15 on the photograph, covers both the road, the street, as well as a little

16 of the field.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is in front of the trees at

18 any rate. In any case, it's in front of the trees, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have his evidence and we have to make of it

20 what we will.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. In order to save

22 time, I will leave this subject and this photograph. It would be a

23 useless waste of time after everything we have heard.

24 Q. I have to put it again to you. I'm sorry that as a young person,

25 a young man of 15 years of age, you found yourself in the situation with

Page 1750

1 all the rest of the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But I'm putting it

2 again to you that, as young as you were, you were a member of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you answer this question for me?

4 A. You are just putting it to me. And second, I am saying again, and

5 there is verifiable, I was not a member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

7 Any re-examination?

8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. In light of the series of

9 questions with respect to the location at which the witness was standing

10 on page 50, page 51; about the elevations, page 45, line 20, pages 40, 41,

11 and 43, I would to ask that these series of photographs be put before the

12 witness so that we can see them on the ELMO.


14 MS. EDGERTON: In that sequence, please, because it's the sequence

15 that all the parties have received the photographs in.

16 No. Could we just have that first photograph back, please. Yes,

17 that one that is in your hand, if you could place that on the ELMO.

18 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

19 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, does this photograph depict the location at which

20 you were standing at the time you were shot in March of 1995?

21 A. Yes, I was moving there, and I was hit in the spot which I showed

22 earlier.

23 Q. Now, could you mark that location, if you see it, on this

24 photograph, keeping in mind the comments you have heard now about the size

25 of the markings, please.

Page 1751

1 A. I can show it approximately here. It was here. That's where I

2 was.

3 Q. That's the location -- the location you're marking with an X now

4 is the location where you were standing, or where you were moving, as you

5 have corrected me, at the time you were shot. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, approximately there.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,

8 please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Is he also going to show us the direction

10 from which the shots came?

11 MS. EDGERTON: That's my intention, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, okay.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P191, Your

14 Honours.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Now, from P191, if we could move to P1 -- sorry, to

16 the next photograph, please.

17 Q. Mr. Zunic, as you were walking, do you see on this photograph what

18 lay to your right-hand side?

19 A. Yes, I can see it. That's the house that was there.

20 Q. Do you know who lived in that house?

21 A. Yes, of course. They were my parents' family friends.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have that marked as the next exhibit,

23 please.


25 THE REGISTRAR: As P191, Your Honours. I'm sorry, Your Honours.

Page 1752

1 Registrar's correction: That will be Exhibit P192.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask counsel, what is the probative

3 value of this last picture?

4 MS. EDGERTON: I could ask the question now, Your Honours. If

5 Your Honours would indulge me, I would like to go through the photographs

6 and the question will become clearer at the end, please.


8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

9 Could we move to the next photograph. I don't think there's a

10 need for that one. The following photograph.

11 Q. Mr. Zunic, does this photograph depict the road you were moving

12 along at the time you were shot?

13 A. Yes, it does.

14 Q. Do you see the location at which you were at the time you were

15 shot?

16 A. Well, approximately here, or maybe lower down the street, as I

17 showed on the first picture.

18 Q. Again, could you place an X at that location.

19 A. Well, approximately here, or maybe, as in the first picture, a bit

20 lower down.

21 Q. Now, could you mark with an arrow the direction in which you were

22 moving along the street at the time you were shot, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 MS. EDGERTON: If we could have that marked as the next exhibit,

25 please.

Page 1753


2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P193, Your Honours.

3 MS. EDGERTON: And the next photograph, please.

4 Q. Mr. Zunic, what do you see on this photograph?

5 A. I see Spicasta Stijena, or, rather, a part thereof, from which I

6 was hit.

7 Q. And as you were moving along the street, to which side of you was

8 this location?

9 A. To my left side.

10 Q. Would you put an arrow on this photograph, please, indicating the

11 direction of fire.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Now, the location which you've indicated that the fire is coming

14 from, is that at a higher, lower, or the same elevation as the one at

15 which you were standing?

16 A. It was much higher than the spot where I was.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Zunic, how can you be absolutely sure, if you can, that

18 the fire came from this direction and no other?

19 A. Well, first of all, I can be sure because we were shot at all the

20 time from Spicasta Stijena; second, because of the specific features of my

21 wound, the entry and exit point; and third, because to my right-hand side

22 there was a house that you could see on the previous picture.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could have P192 put back on the screen,

24 please.

25 Q. Now, is this the house that you've just referred to?

Page 1754

1 A. Yes, that's the house.

2 Q. And why do you say that that's the reason that -- one of the

3 reasons that you could only have been shot from the direction of fire that

4 you've indicated?

5 A. Well, because, first of all, they fired all the time from up

6 there; and second, because this house was inhabited by people who were

7 close to me and we were practically one family with them.

8 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any further questions in

9 re-examination, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, counsel. Could I just ask you, in

11 relation to this last piece of evidence that you brought forward, the

12 picture of the house, P192, I understood your question as to imply that

13 perhaps there were bullet-holes in the walls that would confirm that this

14 is where the shots came from. Is that --

15 MS. EDGERTON: Well, that may have been the implication of my

16 question, Your Honour. The witness's response indicates that, given that

17 the house was inhabited by friends of his family, he doesn't believe that

18 any fire could have come from that location.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh, okay. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Zunic, that constitutes your evidence. Thank

21 you for giving it. You may now leave.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 MS. EDGERTON: With your permission, I'll take my leave now, Your

25 Honours, and turn the floor over to Mr. Docherty.

Page 1755


2 Your next witness, Mr. Docherty.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Your Honour, the Prosecution calls David Fraser.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the time allocated for Mr. Fraser?

6 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm sorry, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The time allocated for Mr. Fraser.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I believe that I will use the balance

9 of this session and all of the following one in my examination-in-chief of

10 this witness, so let's say one and one-half sessions.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

18 And you may begin, Mr. Docherty.

19 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

20 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you begin by telling us your name,

21 your rank, and the armed service of which you are a member.

22 A. I am Brigadier General David Fraser. I'm with the Canadian

23 forces, in the army, and I am an infantry officer.

24 Q. General Fraser, what is that you currently do in the Canadian

25 army?

Page 1756

1 A. I've just finished commanding Regional Command South as part of

2 the multi-national brigade in Afghanistan.

3 Q. How long have you been in the Canadian army?

4 A. I joined the Canadian forces in 1975 as a reserve soldier and then

5 transferred into the regular force in 1980.

6 Q. I want to get a summary of some of the experiences you've had in

7 your military career that may be relevant to the testimony I anticipate

8 you will be giving today.

9 Could you summarise for Their Honours the experience you have had

10 in infantry. And I know you said you were an infantry officer.

11 A. I have commanded at every rank level, lieutenant, captain, major,

12 lieutenant colonel, and brigadier general, in operations abroad in Cyprus,

13 in Bosnia a couple of times, and in Afghanistan in my trade as an infantry

14 officer, and most recently as an general for a brigade of some 8.000

15 troops.

16 Q. Can you summarise for Their Honours your experience with mortars?

17 A. As part of my experience, I have commanded a mortar platoon twice

18 in my career; and also, as a battalion commander, I had mortars working

19 for me; and also as a brigade commander, I had not only mortars but

20 artillery, air, aviation, all supporting operations.

21 Q. Could you please summarise for Their Honours the experience you

22 have had commanding formations that contained snipers?

23 A. As a battalion commander in operations in Bosnia and also, most

24 recently, as a brigade commander, I had snipers working for me and I have

25 employed them, as I said, in operations.

Page 1757

1 Q. And lastly, you mentioned that you have had command overseas. Is

2 that co-extensive with your experience with the United Nations?

3 A. I have commanded with the United Nations three times and also with

4 NATO twice.

5 Q. Did you serve in Bosnia in 1994/1995?

6 A. Yes, I did. I went over to Bosnia in April of 1994 and left in

7 May of 1995, for the first time.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Registrar, while the examination continues,

9 could I please call for ter number 02927, and could I ask - it will be a

10 map - that it be expanded to fill the monitor screen. Thank you.

11 Q. While we wait for the map to load, General, how did it come about

12 that you were sent to Bosnia the first time?

13 A. As part of my Canadian forces, from time to time we are selected

14 to go overseas to fill missions as per Canada's mandate. I was asked to

15 go to Bosnia to become the military assistant to the sector commander of

16 Sarajevo. I was selected, screened, and went over for a year.

17 Q. Now, in your last answer you said that you were the military

18 assistant to the commander of Sector Sarajevo. I'm going to ask you to

19 define two things that you said in that answer; first, military assistant,

20 and second, Sector Sarajevo.

21 A. As the military assistant to the commander, it was my

22 responsibility to run the office for the sector commander, to make sure

23 that his calendar and all of the correspondence was done in accordance

24 with his directions, and also to act as his battle adjutant in the sense

25 of when he went out into the field, I would accompany him to make sure

Page 1758

1 that the visits were done, the coordination with the units on the ground,

2 and also to take notes for any meetings that he attended.

3 And the second part of your question was Sector Sarajevo, the

4 commander. Bosnia at the time was broken down into regions -- into

5 sectors. The sector that -- I worked for two French Generals. First,

6 Andre Soubirou was the first one, and then Herve Gobillard. They were

7 responsible for Sector Sarajevo, which comprised the city and the

8 demilitarised zone just south of Mount Igman.

9 Q. And day in, day out -- the description that you have given most

10 recently is what you were doing on a day in, day out basis as the military

11 assistant to the commander of Sector Sarajevo?

12 A. Correct. It comprised, in the morning, of getting his morning

13 briefings ready, doing the correspondence, reviewing the calendar; then

14 going out with him to visit units. At the end of the day, we would also

15 regularly go and visit the commander of Bosnia at the time. It was

16 General Sir Michael Rose, followed by General Sir Rupert Smith. Again,

17 just going to visit any of the Bosnian authorities, both Muslim and

18 Serbian.

19 Q. And what rank did you yourself hold during the time that you were

20 in Sarajevo as the military assistant to the commander of Sector Sarajevo?

21 A. I was a major at that time.

22 Q. General, now turning to the map that is on the monitor in front of

23 you, a few questions. During your time in Sarajevo, did you become

24 familiar with the geography of the city?

25 A. Very familiar, as I visited and toured the region with my

Page 1759

1 commander.

2 Q. Did you also become familiar with the location of the front lines

3 or, as they're sometimes referred to, the confrontation lines?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And did you use this knowledge day in and day out in performing

6 your professional duties?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Before coming to court today, did you have an opportunity to

9 review the map, the original map, which is now on the monitor in front of

10 you?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How accurate did you find that map to be in terms of the geography

13 of Sarajevo and its surrounding area?

14 A. I thought the map was a very accurate based on what I recall of

15 the region around the city.

16 Q. And what did you find as far as the accuracy was concerned of the

17 location of the confrontation lines?

18 A. I thought the symbols on the map for the Serbian and the Bosnian

19 confrontation lines were most accurate.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Now I'm going to ask the registrar to expand this

21 map, and I'm going to ask that the city of Sarajevo, which is the brown

22 area just below the centre, be the centre of the expanded map. That will

23 be nicely done. Thank you. And if could blow it up just a little bit

24 more. Thank you.

25 Q. General, I'm going to ask you to mark some locations on this map.

Page 1760

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Before I do that, I'm going to tender the unmarked

2 map into evidence.


4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P194, Your Honours.


6 Q. General, are you familiar with the position of Lukovica?

7 A. Yes, I am.

8 Q. Does it appear on the map?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. There is a pen attached to the monitor that, if you mark with it,

11 it makes a mark on the monitor. Could you put a box at the location of

12 Lukavica and then label it with the letter L.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Was there a location in Sarajevo that was colloquially referred to

15 as ""Sniper Alley""?

16 A. Yes, there was.

17 Q. Is "Sniper Alley" on the portion of the map that's on the monitor?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Would you draw a line along "Sniper Alley" and then label it with

20 the SA, for the English words "Sniper Alley".

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Does Mount Igman appear on this map or has it been scrolled off?

23 A. It's been scrolled off.

24 Q. We'll come back to that.

25 Does the airport appear on this map?

Page 1761

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Could you draw a line around the perimeter of the airport and

3 label it with the letter A, for "airport."

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with an area called Ilidza?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. Does it appear on this map?

8 A. It's just off the map.

9 Q. All right. We'll come back to that.

10 Are you familiar with an area called Sedrenik or Sharpstone?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Does that appear on this map?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Could you circle the Sedrenik/Sharpstone area and label it with

15 the letter S.

16 A. [Marks].

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honours, I will tender the map as marked into

18 evidence.


20 But could I ask the brigadier, was there anything particular about

21 the topography of "Sniper Alley" that made it especially attractive to

22 snipers?

23 THE WITNESS: There were a number of buildings along "Sniper

24 Alley" that made it easy for snipers to get in and hide. And because of

25 the roads and the height, the area principally in the south of the city,

Page 1762

1 south of the river, it was conducive for snipers to actually get into good

2 positions and find targets of opportunity in that particular region.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General, to follow up on the

5 question asked by Mr. Robinson, when you're talking about the snipers,

6 what party do you think they belonged to? Which side? One side or both

7 sides? Which side of the warring factions did they belong to, according

8 to you? Which side used them?

9 THE WITNESS: Both sides used snipers.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] We're talking about on "Sniper

11 Alley."

12 THE WITNESS: There were snipers on both sides on "Sniper Alley,"

13 but the predominant number of snipers were on the Serbian side, firing

14 into the Muslim side.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: I was just ready to continue, Your Honour.

17 If it please the Court, we anticipate having detailed aerial

18 photographs of the "Sniper Alley" area later in this witness's

19 examination. I believe the next order of business is to get an exhibit

20 number for the map as marked.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be numbered.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P195, Your Honours.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: And now if I could please ask the registrar to put

24 up the clean map and to pull back a bit so that we can get in the features

25 that the General indicated were off the map. Thank you.

Page 1763

1 Q. General, as the map is now, does the area of Ilidza and Mount

2 Igman appear on the map?

3 A. Igman is just there and so is Ilidza.

4 Q. Let's start with Ilidza, please. On this map, could you draw a

5 box at the location of Ilidza and mark it with a capital L -- capital I,

6 excuse me.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you mark Mount Igman. And since that also starts with I,

9 let's call that MT, for "mountain."

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Lastly, was there a road that went over Mount Igman?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. Using this map, can you illustrate for us the route of that road.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. DOCHERTY: And for the record, that will be the line in the

16 lower left-hand corner of the map.

17 Your Honours, as marked, I will tender this map.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P196, Your Honours.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: And then lastly, if we could have the clean map

21 back again at about this level. Thank you.

22 Q. General, I'm now going to ask you to make a mark on the map. I'm

23 not going to ask it be admitted into evidence. Rather, once you have made

24 a mark, I'm going to ask the registrar to note that mark and zoom in close

25 on the spot that you are marking, and then we will introduce that.

Page 1764

1 Did you become familiar with some elevated positions around the

2 city the Sarajevo? And I'll give you some names: Debelo Brdo, Mojmilo,

3 and Zuc.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Let's start with Debelo Brdo. On this map, can you show us where

6 Debelo Brdo is?

7 MR. DOCHERTY: And then I will ask the registrar to zoom in very

8 close on the Debelo Brdo area as you indicate it.

9 That's a bit too close. If we could move back a bit, please.

10 That's great. Thank you.

11 Q. Now, this one we are going to try to move into evidence

12 eventually. So, General, could you start by marking on this map the

13 position of the hill called Debelo Brdo.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Were you aware from your time in Sarajevo which of the warring

16 factions controlled Debelo Brdo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us the answer, please.

19 A. The Muslims had their positions just below the pimple called

20 Debelo Brdo. The UN were right on the top of it and the Muslim trenches

21 were just below it. And if I could also say, then, the Serbs were just to

22 the south on a higher piece of ground that looked down onto Debelo Brdo.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honours, I'll move the admission -- I'm

25 sorry.

Page 1765

1 Q. Could you please mark this with a DB, for "Debelo Brdo."

2 A. [Marks].

3 MR. DOCHERTY: And now I will move it into evidence, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would he able to identify the positions held as

5 he just described them?

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, I can take him through a number of questions

7 about that, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The three positions; the Muslims, the UN and the

9 Serbs.


11 Q. General, do you see a dotted blue line on this map? It's really

12 not a line; it's a dotted blue perimeter.

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. What does that signify?

15 A. Where the Muslims were.

16 Q. Is that their most forward positions?

17 A. As far as I remember, yes, it was.

18 Q. What about the dotted red perimeter? What does that signify?

19 A. That signifies the Serbian positions, and from what I remember,

20 there is only one modification I would make.

21 Q. Could you describe that modification, please.

22 A. Can I just show it? Just where the line is, you see the road just

23 below the B?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. From what I remember, I do think the Serbs actually controlled

Page 1766

1 that piece of the road.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: And if we could mark on this, Your Honours, even

3 though it's already admitted, I would ask the General to make a mark on

4 that road. Is that permissible?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see why not, yes.


7 Q. Then would you please mark on the exhibit. Thank you, General.

8 A. [Marks].

9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please make pauses between

10 questions an answers for the sake of the interpreters.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Brigadier, I have to ask you to observe a pause

12 between the question and answer. Mr. Docherty knows that very well. The

13 interpreters are concerned about that.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: I know it very well, Your Honour, and I keep

15 forgetting.

16 Q. General, what was on the very top of Debelo Brdo?

17 A. There was a UN position.

18 Q. All right. Can you go into a bit more detail about what that

19 position was? Who was up there? Who commanded it? How many men? Things

20 like that.

21 A. From what I recall, it was an a small platoon commanded by a

22 lieutenant. Probably under 30 men were on top of that hill.

23 Q. Moving down the hill, what was the first warring faction that you

24 came to?

25 A. Just down below the hill towards the west and the east of the

Page 1767

1 position were the Muslim trenches, and they extended down into the city,

2 down into the north, right down into the city.

3 Q. And as you continue this imaginary walk down the hill, what is the

4 next warring faction that you came to?

5 A. Well, if you went south, you actually walked down a bit of a hill

6 but you were walking uphill, where, in fact, the Serbs had their

7 positions, which was slightly above Debelo Brdo. And you could look over

8 the -- sort of a little bit of a dip in the flat area where it went up

9 into the southern part of that map and up higher, and that's where the

10 Serbs were, all along the ridge line.

11 Q. And do I understand that --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then the Serbs occupied the higher position?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, they did.

14 They occupied dominating ground over this area. The UN had

15 command of this little pimple, I would call it, which was significant, and

16 the Muslims were just down a little bit below and the Serbs were a little

17 bit higher. But the UN had a key piece of ground in that region.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What you said, as you walked down the first

19 position, you would meet the Muslim trenches.

20 THE WITNESS: Right.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which led me to believe that they might have

22 been -- they might have been at the highest position, but that's not so.

23 THE WITNESS: No, sir. The UN was slightly above the Muslims and

24 the Serbs were slightly above the UN, and they had the more dominating

25 ground of the region.

Page 1768

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.


3 Q. Just so we're clear, when you say that the Serbs were slightly

4 above the Muslims, that was on a different hill.

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. And from a military point of view, what was the interrelationship

7 between this different higher hill and Debelo Brdo?

8 A. The Serbs had the better position in the region because they

9 commanded that entire ridge line to the south of the city. Debelo Brdo

10 was just this little pimple which was a significant piece of ground that

11 lay between where the Serbs' position was and the city. And the UN had

12 that and the Muslims had what was left, which was the area just on the

13 east and west of it, which was the best they could get in that particular

14 area. But the Serbs had the dominating vantage point in that region.

15 MR. DOCHERTY: And now on this exhibit, if we could please take

16 the marks away, leave the map at the current level of zoom, and then we'll

17 mark it again.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this map, as marked, will be

19 admitted as Exhibit P197.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.

21 Q. General, are you familiar with the position called Zuc, or Zuc,

22 perhaps?

23 A. Yes, I am. It's where the television tower was.

24 Q. Is the area of Zuc on this map?

25 A. Yeah, it's in the upper left corner.

Page 1769

1 Q. Could you put an X on Zuc, please.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And that's rather a big X. Is Zuc in the centre or is that all

4 Zuc?

5 A. Right there.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: And for the record, could the record please

8 indicate that the red dot to the right of the X has been indicated by the

9 witness to be the position of Zuc.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the X be deleted, then?

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Mr. Usher, could we please delete the markings

12 and we'll try again.

13 Q. Could you put a letter Z beside that, General.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. DOCHERTY: I move the admission of the map as marked, Your

16 Honours.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P198, Your Honours.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: And, again, if the marks could be taken away. This

20 is the last map marking we're going to do.

21 Q. General, are you familiar with an elevation called Mojmilo?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Does it appear on this map?

24 A. No.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Registrar, could we please pull back on the

Page 1770

1 zoom.

2 Q. Does Mojmilo now appear on this map?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Could you please mark its position with a dot and mark

5 it with the letter M.

6 A. [Marks].

7 MR. DOCHERTY: I move the admission of this map as marked.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P199, Your Honours.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Mr. Usher. We're finished with map

11 marking and SMART Boards.

12 Q. General, the two elevations we were just talking about, Zuc and

13 then Mojmilo, let's start with Zuc. Who controlled Zuc, which warring

14 faction?

15 A. The Muslims.

16 Q. Top to bottom?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the same question with regard to Mojmilo. Who controlled

19 Mojmilo?

20 A. The Muslims.

21 Q. And again, top to bottom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move now to a different topic and that's

24 the topic of sniping. Were sniping attacks on civilians a concern during

25 the time that you were in Bosnia?

Page 1771

1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. Can you tell us, please, how it was that the United Nations troops

3 in the city would learn about sniping attacks on civilians?

4 A. We would learn a number of different ways, either from our forces

5 who were on the ground as part of the anti-sniping task force or in the

6 form of protests from one of the warring factions.

7 Q. These protests from the warring factions, what form did they take?

8 Telephone, face-to-face, letters, what have you?

9 A. They could take the form of telephone, of face-to-face meetings,

10 or letters. In all cases they were investigated.

11 Q. What did that investigation consist of? Once a report came in,

12 what did the UN do?

13 A. What we would do is take the particulars of the protest, apply it

14 to the applicable battalion that was in the area, go find out as much

15 detail as we could, including from the local authorities, and then reply

16 to the protest from that specific warring faction. In many cases, it

17 would also generate further communications and discussions with the

18 warring factions, especially the ones who did the action, to tell them to

19 don't -- to cease this type of activity.

20 Q. And, in general, how effective were these discussions with the

21 warring faction that the UN concluded lay behind the particular incident

22 that was being investigated?

23 A. What would normally happen is that we would have an increase in

24 sniping incidents, which would be characterised by multiple meetings. It

25 would generate into a significant series of discussions and get to a point

Page 1772

1 where, in fact, we would be engaging at the corps commander level with the

2 sector commander, or in fact the commander of Bosnia at the time, either

3 Michael Rose or Rupert Smith. And after a significant intervention by my

4 boss, the sector commander, or the commander of Bosnia, the situation

5 would get better for a while, but then would be a slow, gradual build-up

6 of these incidents until we got to another stage where we'd have to make

7 more concerted efforts to curtail sniping.

8 Q. What does --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, it's time for the break.

10 We'll take the adjournment for 20 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We should congratulate ourselves. We did 18

14 minutes instead of 20.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if I may, for literally no more than

16 three minutes. Way off my stride this morning and I omitted to have the

17 last photograph marked by the last witness tendered as an exhibit, and I

18 would like to do that now, if you please.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P200, Your

21 Honours.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.


24 Q. General, just before the break you were talking about the pattern

25 you typically observed when a protest was made to one or the other of the

Page 1773

1 warring factions. From those observations, can you draw any conclusions

2 as to the effectiveness of command and control over the activities being

3 protested about; and, if so, what are those conclusions and what are the

4 reasons for them?

5 A. From my observation, it appeared that there was a commander's

6 intent in play around the city of Sarajevo with respect to sniping

7 incidents, illustrated by the fact that we had sniping along "Sniper

8 Alley", we had sniping around the airport, and we had sniping around the

9 Sharpstone area, which -- three separate areas, three separate

10 organisations, which would indicate to me, based on my military

11 experience, of a higher commander's intent at play here.

12 Q. I want now, General --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us, as did you in relation

14 to "Sniper Alley," whether the other two locations had sniping from both

15 sides?

16 THE WITNESS: I recall from up in the Sharpstone area that most of

17 the sniping came from the Serbian side. "Sniper Alley," it was

18 predominantly from the Serbian side, and the airport area, I think it was

19 about equal. Maybe a little bit more from the Serbian side.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So if I understand you correctly, then, in

21 relation to the Sharpstone area, you said most came from the Serbian side,

22 which I take to mean that some did come from the other side, and --

23 well, "Sniper Alley," you say, was predominantly from the Serbian side.


25 Q. General --

Page 1774

1 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm sorry.

2 THE WITNESS: That is correct.


4 Q. General, I want to take up some of these positions in turn.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm going to start with "Sniper Alley," and I'm

6 going to ask the court registrar to call up ter number 2819, an aerial

7 photograph.

8 Q. While we're waiting for that, General, are you familiar with an

9 area of Sarajevo called Grbavica?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: May I ask the registrar, is it possible to resize

13 the photograph. Thank you.

14 Q. General, looking at this photograph, do you see on it the Holiday

15 Inn?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. What colour is the Holiday Inn?

18 A. It is a yellowish colour at the top centre of the picture.

19 Q. All right. Is there a road in front of the Holiday Inn?

20 A. Yes, there is, commonly referred to as "Sniper Alley."

21 Q. And down at the -- about the middle of picture, do you see a line

22 of trees on a left-right orientation?

23 A. Yes, and that would be delineate where the river, the Miljacka

24 river, was.

25 Q. And did the Miljacka river have any military significance at the

Page 1775

1 time that you were in Sarajevo?

2 A. It delineated the division between the Muslims and the Serbs.

3 Q. At the bottom of the photograph, there is what appears to me to be

4 a dense residential area. Can you tell us which of the warring factions

5 controlled that area at the bottom of the screen?

6 A. The Serbs.

7 Q. Do you know the name of the neighbourhood that you have just

8 indicated was controlled by the Serbs?

9 A. I do believe -- I believe it was called the Grbavica area, but I'd

10 have to see a bigger map.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: And now if we could please see ter number 02930,

13 also an aerial photograph.

14 Q. General, on the monitor in front of you is an aerial photograph.

15 Do you recognise the scene that's depicted in that photograph?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Does the road that you have referred to as "Sniper Alley" appear

18 in that photograph?

19 A. It's not clear, but I know it's just on the other side of the --

20 of those big tall buildings. You can see there the trees that delineate

21 the river.

22 Q. And could you help us out by using the pen and just drawing a line

23 along the Miljacka river, please.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 1776

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Usher, I will be asking for another mark but

2 not for five or ten questions, however you want to handle it.

3 Q. General, is the area known as Grbavica in this photograph that is

4 on the monitor in front of you?

5 A. I think it's just off to the top right.

6 Q. Okay. Now, along "Sniper Alley," did you yourself ever see a

7 Serbian sniper nest?

8 A. My boss and I visited one at one stage when we were there.

9 Q. Can you tell us the approximate date of this visit?

10 A. It would have been in the spring or summer of 1995.

11 Q. Can you tell us how this visit came about?

12 A. We had been concerned with sniping throughout the time that we

13 were there. We had heard about a number of positions, and we had -- we

14 had asked the Serbians if we could actually go and visit some of the

15 buildings and they escorted us to one of the buildings.

16 Q. Is the building to which you were escorted on the photograph on

17 the monitor in front of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please put an X through the building that you visited.

20 A. Can we just zoom in; is that possible?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we take the markings away, please,

22 Mr. Registrar, and then zoom in.

23 Q. Does that help, General?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you, before you mark the building, to remark the

Page 1777

1 river.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And now could you put an X on the building.

4 A. [Marks].

5 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honours, I move the admission of the

6 photograph as marked.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P201, Your Honours.

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Usher, that concludes my marking for the

10 foreseeable future.

11 Q. General, when you went into that building, what did you see that

12 was significant to you in terms of whether that building had ever been

13 used by snipers?

14 A. It was a three- to four-storey red brick building. We walked up a

15 number of stairs, and as we walked through the building we noticed that

16 there were holes punched through the wall. Some people would call those a

17 spider hole. But you could actually look out towards the Muslim side of

18 the river. There were sandbags that could be used as positions for

19 shooters and other paraphernalia that could be used for shooters

20 throughout the building that snipers could utilise in the prosecution of

21 their task.

22 Q. And from those observations that you've just described, did you

23 draw any conclusions, as a military officer, about the uses to which this

24 red building in Grbavica had been put?

25 A. It was a good position for snipers, and from my experience it

Page 1778

1 definitely looked like it was prepared for that use.

2 Q. Did sniping occur along the whole length -- excuse me.

3 Earlier today you marked on the map "Sniper Alley." Did sniping

4 occur the whole length of the line that you drew on that map?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Did you, during your time in Sarajevo, come into possession of

7 information about sniper nests elsewhere in the city, other than the red

8 building that you have drawn an X through on the exhibit in front of you?

9 A. We had information of a number of buildings and positions

10 throughout the city, principally along "Sniper Alley," where in fact

11 actions had taken place. This was extensively mapped out by the

12 anti-sniping task force that was positioned every day along "Sniper

13 Alley," led by the French, supported by the Ukrainians.

14 Q. I'm going to get to the anti-sniping task force in just a couple

15 of minutes. But before I do that, a couple of questions on a different

16 topic.

17 Were you aware of allegations that the Bosnian Muslim side had

18 engaged in shooting its own civilians in order to generate press that

19 would be favourable to their side anti the Serbian side?

20 A. I was aware of, in fact, two incidents and also a third shelling

21 incident that was precipitated by the Serbs but finished off by the

22 Bosnians, the Muslims.

23 Q. Now, when you make that statement about two incidents plus the

24 shelling incident, could we take those up in turn, please, and in whatever

25 order makes the most sense for you. Just pick one incident, describe it,

Page 1779

1 then the next, and then the third.

2 A. The first one was, the French were in possession of a video

3 showing a Muslim sniper shooting his own people. I never saw the video.

4 I heard about it from the French officers in my office and from my French

5 boss. And it was referred to with the Muslim vice-president in one

6 meeting we had when he was trying to accuse the other side, the Serbs, of

7 doing something, when, in fact, we knew that he was culpable, which was

8 associated with the shelling incident I talked about.

9 Q. And in regards to that, let's turn to the shelling incident, since

10 they seem to lead into each other. What was the date of the shelling

11 incident that you are talking about?

12 A. The shelling incident took place, I believe, around the 18th/19th

13 of September. It started off with two mortar attacks in the span of about

14 40 minutes. The first attack hit the city, and about, as I say, about 40

15 minutes later, another mortar attack hit the same spot. And what normally

16 happens after these attacks, you do get a congregation of people and there

17 were twice the number of casualties.

18 We, as a result of that, as a result of all the shelling attacks

19 in the city, put together an investigating team, in this particular case

20 led by Lieutenant Colonel Lechevallier, a French officer. It was a joint

21 investigation with the Muslim authorities, being, in this case, the Muslim

22 police. The Muslim police actually gave us the 82-millimetre mortar

23 firing tables which we used.

24 When we conducted the investigation, the crater analysis, we

25 actually found out that the shells came from two different directions.

Page 1780

1 Because of the sensitivity of our findings, we tried to contact the Muslim

2 authorities to indicate to them that, in fact, they were culpable because

3 the second rounds actually came parallel to the river on the Muslim side,

4 when the first rounds came across the river from the Serbian positions.

5 The Muslims didn't want to talk to us initially, so we had the

6 press conference and my boss talked about how we were going to issue out

7 the press conference, and said we would not make conclusions. We would

8 explain to the public how we conducted our analysis, lay the facts on the

9 table, tell them who was part of the investigating team, and let the

10 people make their own conclusions.

11 It was pretty obvious at the end that everyone said the first

12 rounds came from the Serbian side, which we -- we just let them make their

13 own conclusions, and the second rounds came from the Muslim side, at which

14 point we were immediately summoned to the vice-president who was

15 downtown.

16 He brought into the meeting the media and everyone else, at which

17 point we said the Muslims were part of the investigating team, and that we

18 also had evidence that this was not the first time; that there was also a

19 tape that was in the possession of the French, at which point the

20 vice-president dismissed everybody out of the room and it was just my

21 boss, a few French officers and myself and the vice-president there. And

22 it became a little bit more humble, not quite as much rhetoric; when, in

23 fact, he knew then that we had the information and it was not a bluff, and

24 he became a little bit more submissive at that stage in the game.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was a very long answer. Exceptionally, I

Page 1781

1 allowed it, but, as you know, my predilection is for short answers.


3 Q. Just to pick up on a couple of the points that you just spoke

4 about, General. You yourself never did see the tape that your boss

5 possessed; is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Did your boss - that would be General Soubirou - confirm to you

8 ever that such a tape existed?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And do you know anything about the date of the incident that

11 allegedly is caught on this tape?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Turning now -- you mentioned that -- you talked about one sniping

14 and one shelling incident. Am I correct that there was one other incident

15 that you wanted to discuss in connection with this issue?

16 A. There was a third incident where, in fact, some French soldiers

17 related to us that they had come across some Muslims filming a staged

18 attack with children - no one was actually hurt; it was all staged - that

19 they were preparing to use on the TV against the Serbs.

20 Q. All right. Now, circling back to the Bosnian Serb snipers along

21 "Sniper Alley" that you have talked about, you mentioned in your

22 testimony before -- just after the break that you had drawn certain

23 conclusions about the level at which these snipers were controlled. Who

24 was the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during the 13 months that

25 you were in Bosnia?

Page 1782

1 A. There were two Serbian commanders when I was there. The first one

2 was General Galic and then the second one was General Milosevic.

3 Q. Did you ever meet General Milosevic?

4 A. I met him several times with my boss. Numerous times.

5 Q. Can you give us an approximate date for the first time that you

6 met General Dragomir Milosevic?

7 A. I believe the first time I met him would have been sometime around

8 the May/June period of the summer of 1994 when I first got there, going

9 around with General Soubirou, touring the battle space, and dealing with

10 the commanders on the ground.

11 Q. Did you meet General Dragomir Milosevic often enough to form an

12 opinion of him as a military officer?

13 A. I did. And during the meetings that we had, he appeared competent

14 as a commander, but at the same time he appeared somewhat troubled by what

15 he was doing. And notwithstanding that, he did appear to have a lot of

16 influence from Indic, who was an LO, who really spoke to the Serbian

17 higher headquarters in Pale. And on some occasions, General Milosevic

18 tried to deal with us and leave Indic out of it, which -- again, trying to

19 work with and accommodate the UN on some of the issues that he was facing,

20 principally around Sierra 4.

21 Q. You said Indic and then you used the abbreviation LO. What does

22 that stand for?

23 A. Indic was a major at the time. I think he was promoted colonel

24 by -- lieutenant colonel by the time I left. He was a liaison officer

25 from Pale, and he really did speak on behalf of the Serbian higher command

Page 1783

1 to make sure that what they were doing was being executed at the lowest

2 level -- at that level.

3 Q. You indicated in an answer a few minutes ago that at times General

4 Milosevic appeared, in your words, "troubled" by the things that he was

5 asked to do. Did you ever have a conversation with General Milosevic in

6 which he elaborated on any personal consequences to himself about the

7 things that he was doing in Sarajevo during 1994 and 1995?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted) I asked

11 him at that stage - and, again, I believe it was him - whether or not he

12 was ever going to visit his daughter, and he told me that he would never

13 be able to leave Bosnia because of what he was doing in the country and

14 how it was going to be perceived.

15 Q. Was there discussions between yourself and Dragomir Milosevic

16 concerning a checkpoint called Sierra 4?

17 A. Yes. In fact, my boss and General Milosevic had discussions about

18 Sierra 4, which was just outside of the airport on route to the PTT

19 building. It was an area of contention with the UN, that our freedom of

20 movement was severely hampered by the Serbs there.

21 General Milosevic had an agreement with my boss to improve the

22 circulation of that area. He did this through the Ilidza Brigade, I

23 believe it was, and we kept Indic out of it which we knew was going to

24 irritate the Serbian higher command, but it was designed to, A, improve

25 our freedom of movement, as we were exercising our right, and did

Page 1784

1 demonstrate the General's attempt to at least try to work with us, at

2 least at that particular point in time, a little bit more amenable.

3 Q. Now, from these discussions over the Sierra 4 checkpoint and from

4 the role that Dragomir Milosevic played in these discussions, were you

5 able to draw any conclusions as to the control over the Sarajevo-Romanija

6 Corps exercised by Dragomir Milosevic?

7 A. From my observation and dealings with him, he did have command and

8 control over the corps and over operations around the city. When we went

9 to him with concerns about sniping, the situation would normally

10 afterwards get a little bit better for a while, and then we would have to

11 re-engage with him when situations were getting a little bit more tense.

12 Q. I'm going to follow up on the question of control over the snipers

13 and anti-sniping efforts in just a minute. But before I do that, you

14 testified earlier that in your career you've commanded military formations

15 that include snipers; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. From those experiences, are you able to draw any conclusions about

18 the quality of sniper units by observing the way in which they work?

19 A. Snipers -- yes. Snipers are a highly specialised skill set that

20 is normally commanded at the higher levels. As a battalion commander, I

21 would control the snipers; as a brigade commander, I would control how we

22 would employ snipers because of the paucity of numbers; but more

23 importantly is the effect that you're looking for in the application of

24 this skill set. It's very precise, and you want to make sure you apply

25 them to very precise targets that you're looking for.

Page 1785

1 The snipers that I saw operating in Sarajevo were very competent,

2 based upon comments I received from the anti-sniping task force.

3 Q. When you talk about snipers engaged by the anti-sniping task

4 force, the anti-sniping task force engaged snipers of which warring

5 faction?

6 A. The ones down along "Sniper Alley" were mainly focused against the

7 Serbian side.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: With regard to the anti-sniping efforts, could I

9 please ask the registrar to call up 65 ter number 1917. And it's the

10 left-hand document on the split screen that I want to ask General Fraser

11 about.

12 Q. General, have you seen this before?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. All right. I regret, we don't seem to have a B/C/S translation,

15 so I'll just ask a couple of -- I'll just ask you what it is.

16 A. This is an order to the anti- -- in fact, it's an order to all the

17 battalions for anti-sniping measures for Sarajevo.

18 Q. And who is this order coming from and who is this order going to?

19 A. This order came from the headquarters under the authority of the

20 commander. It's signed off by the senior operations officer, Lieutenant

21 Colonel Peter Anthony, who was a French marine. This is the way that the

22 French conducted business. Everything that was directed by the commander

23 would be followed up by orders, fragmentary orders, and this one is

24 specifically designed for anti-sniping measures around Sarajevo.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I move into evidence 65 ter number

Page 1786

1 1917, the entire document.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P202, Your Honours.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm going to ask --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Brigadier, can you just clarify for me how the

6 anti-sniper unit was intended to carry out its work? I'm looking here at

7 the execution, although it's not very visible, and I see "Deterrence."

8 It's a little clearer now. Deterrence was one part of the strategy?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it was. For the force just to be

10 physically out there, to deter both sides, principally, though, the Serbs,

11 from shooting at civilians.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how would they do that?

13 THE WITNESS: By physically interposing themselves between the

14 Serbian side and the civilians. For example, along "Sniper Alley," we

15 would physically have vehicles and UN soldiers along that alley at the

16 principal points where, in fact, snipers would be engaging civilians, and

17 we'd put ourselves between them and the other side.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: So was that successful, the mere physical

19 presence?

20 THE WITNESS: To some degree. We also put up passive barriers.

21 But even the physical presence of those soldiers wasn't all that good,

22 because at one stage we had a -- one stage I remember, we had a French

23 soldier shot in the head from a Serbian sniper. I -- actually, we both

24 went down there and watched the soldier taken away in an ambulance.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General, let's go back to the

Page 1787

1 document we see on the screen.

2 First paragraph, "Situation." You said yourself that you had led

3 units in which there were snipers or sniper formations. I imagine that

4 this is part of regular activities within the armed forces, having

5 snipers. Am I correct?


7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at the first

8 paragraph of this document. This document reads that the activities of

9 snipers from both sides were increasing at the time.

10 Here is my question: From both sides snipers were shooting at

11 each other, or does that mean that from both sides snipers would shoot

12 civilians and possibly would fire on their own population? Because it can

13 be interpreted in different ways. Here, what is said is that Serbs could

14 shoot on other Serbs, or it could also mean that Muslims, Muslim troops,

15 could have shot on other Muslims. From that paragraph this can be

16 inferred.

17 THE WITNESS: The intent of this order was to stop Serbs,

18 principally, and Muslims from firing on civilians. The employment of

19 snipers is designed to employ legitimate military targets. If Serbs were

20 firing against Muslim soldiers, like soldier to soldier, we in the UN did

21 not intervene into those operations. That was a -- legitimate military

22 targets doing what they were doing. Where we intervened, and where this

23 order was designed to intervene, was from snipers engaging in civilians

24 who were not deemed combatants in this conflict. We were there to protect

25 the people and do whatever measures we needed to go after those

Page 1788

1 individuals who were attacking civilians, not soldiers.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I do understand this, of course.

3 But I would like to know, whether unintentionally or voluntarily, Serb

4 soldiers fired against Serb civilians, and if -- on the other side if,

5 intentionally or unintentionally, Muslim soldiers shot at Muslim

6 civilians.

7 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of Serbs firing at Serb

8 civilians, and I only have the one case where I was told about a Muslim

9 sniper firing at Muslim civilians and then the shelling incident. Those

10 are the only two examples I have of that case.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order not to waste

14 too much time, I think there is a need for a redaction in the transcript,

15 the place where our client lives. I did not realise, but maybe this

16 element of information should remain within the walls of this courtroom.

17 I don't think it is necessary to reveal the exact location where the

18 daughter lives. It was some 15 minutes ago, I believe. Maybe we can go

19 over the transcript very quickly, because I know there's a 30-minute lag

20 between what is said in the courtroom and the broadcast.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Chamber has decided that the reference

24 will be redacted.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: And I have that at page 85, line 7.

Page 1789

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. I was asking a little bit ago, General, about your evaluation of

4 the quality of these snipers. You indicated that you had received stories

5 back from the anti-sniping units that we've just been talking about. Tell

6 us, please, what stories you were hearing back from the anti-sniping units

7 and what role those stories played in you evaluating the quality of the

8 Bosnian Serbian snipers.

9 A. The French soldiers would report back, and I talked to some about

10 the quality, and they indicated to me they were very competent at what

11 they were doing. For example, at "Sniper Alley," soldiers would regularly

12 hear the incoming Serbian snipers come in, that they would fire at a

13 telephone pole to tell -- indicate to them they were there.

14 Following that, it was not uncommon for the snipers to register

15 their positions by firing a couple of shots to check on windage and

16 distance and to set themselves up for the day's activities. And then at

17 the end of the day, from time to time it was not uncommon for a sniper to

18 pop off a -- to fire a round off the side of one of our vehicles to say

19 that he was leaving for the day. It was an unwritten code, if I may say

20 that, between the snipers and the UN anti-sniping task force, and it was

21 also indicating, "I'm here. Try to find me." And we had a lot of troops

22 down there and it was hard to find these people. They were good.

23 Q. How good were the anti-sniping teams? What sort of soldiers were

24 on those anti-sniping teams?

25 A. The corps of the anti-sniping team was the French -- the French

Page 1790

1 battalion at the airport, the French battalion along "Sniper Alley." And

2 we had also special reconnaissance and special troops assigned to them.

3 They were designed to go and find the snipers, and they had a hard time

4 finding them. But when they did find them, we would engage snipers. And

5 if we received a vociferous response back from one of the warring

6 factions, we had a pretty good indication that we had gotten one of their

7 snipers. If we didn't hear anything back, we didn't get anybody. So

8 yelling meant good.

9 Q. Did any of these French soldiers lose their lives during these

10 anti-sniping operations?

11 A. We had one soldier, as I indicated to you before, who was shot and

12 wounded on "Sniper Alley."

13 We had a second soldier who was moving a passive -- a C can. He

14 was an a fork-lift operator. He was shot in the vehicle. He actually

15 fell out of the vehicle and he died on TV. In fact, that's how his wife

16 found out that he had died; she watched him die on TV. We only found out

17 in the headquarters about 15 minutes later.

18 And the third one was we had a soldier on the seventeenth floor, I

19 believe, in the Unis tower, looking through a sighting system, and he was

20 shot right through the sighting system and shot into the head. He

21 subsequently died of his wounds, and that was a very, very hard shot to

22 do.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just explain to us what that means. He is

24 looking through the sighting system, which is a hole the circumference of

25 which would be, what, or the diameter?

Page 1791

1 THE WITNESS: This French soldier was looking through what was

2 called a Milan anti-tank sighting system. It wasn't being used for any

3 tank. It was a system that actually magnified, so it was about -- a sight

4 about probably 10 -- well, the mechanism he was looking for was probably

5 about 10 inches in circumference. Back in a room, looking down "Sniper

6 Alley," and some sniper on the other side found him in a window and shot

7 him, and it must have been well over 300, 400 metres, a long shot, to get

8 him to shoot through that sighting system.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that would call for great skill.

10 THE WITNESS: That was a very, very difficult shot, and I do

11 recall that we were very, very surprised that we lost a soldier in that

12 particular case.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And did the anti-sniping unit take out any of the

14 snipers?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, they did.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many?

17 THE WITNESS: I can't remember the numbers. I know that we were

18 effective along "Sniper Alley" and we were also effective in the airport

19 and I know we did fire back at Sharpstone, Sedrenik. We were actually

20 looking for, in fact, a woman up there that was allegedly sniping against

21 the Muslims who supposedly was of Olympic quality. That was one of the

22 individuals we were looking for.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just to follow up on that. Having taken

24 out some of the snipers, would you then have been able to determine their

25 ethnicity?

Page 1792

1 THE WITNESS: We could not determine their ethnicity. We could

2 tell you from what side of the confrontation line it was fired from.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Put it that way, then. Answer that

4 question.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, we could tell from which side they were firing

6 at.

7 To answer you and further explain, I think it was around the -- in

8 April of 1995, a French soldier was coming back from the airport. He was

9 shot and killed coming through the airport, and another French soldier was

10 shot and killed by a sniper along "Sniper Alley." One of those snipers

11 was a Serbian that we determined along "Sniper Alley"; the other one we

12 determined -- we ascertained was probably a Muslim sniper, and that one

13 was at the airport.



16 Q. General, a couple of minutes ago there was a question from, I

17 believe, Judge Mindua concerning paragraph 1 of the document that is in

18 front of you, and I believe that the question indicated -- keyed off the

19 use of the phrase "snipers from both sides." Were Serbian civilians still

20 living in Grbavica at the time when you were in Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes, there were.

22 Q. And were there also Serbian military targets in the Grbavica area

23 of Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes, there were.

25 Q. Consisting of?

Page 1793

1 A. It would have been brigade line troops that were manning the line

2 down there, plus snipers. Both sides manned lines throughout the city

3 that was interspersed with civilians.

4 Q. And I think you came close to answering this question in response

5 to a slightly different question from the Bench, but to be sure, can you

6 describe to us briefly what is the proper military use of a sniper.

7 A. Snipers are typically used for high-value military targets, be

8 that military commanders, radio operators, but not, in any of my

9 experience/training, civilians. They do not constitute targets. And

10 snipers also are very good, and it's not normally possible to miss who

11 you're looking for, as a sniper.

12 Q. Now, I believe your question was regarding an individual person.

13 What about the situation of a tram, particularly a tram that is

14 articulated in the middle? Would you expect a sniper of the quality you

15 have been describing on the Bosnian Serb side along "Sniper Alley" to hit

16 a tram by mistake? And after you have answered the question, could you

17 give us your reasons for the answer.

18 A. It's unlikely that you could miss and hit a tram. From my

19 experience, trams were a favourite target of snipers inside of Sarajevo

20 because of the psychological impact it had on the people of Sarajevo. The

21 people looked to the tram, and if it was running, things were reasonably

22 good; if it was stopped, it meant that the situation was grave and that

23 sent shudders throughout the city. So shooting at a tram had a

24 significant psychological impact on the city.

25 Q. And then lastly on the question of sniping.

Page 1794

1 MR. DOCHERTY: If I could please ask the registrar to pull up ter

2 number 2009 and I'll be interested in e-court pages 2 and 7.

3 Q. While we're waiting for the document, General, did the

4 anti-sniping teams write reports about the activities in which they had

5 been engaged?

6 A. All the time. And I will say, the French were meticulous at

7 writing reports.

8 Q. On the screen in front of you now is e-court page 2 of ter number

9 2009. Is this a document that you recognise?

10 A. It appears to be a -- yes, I do recognise this. It appears to be

11 a log and from -- who it's coming from, RusBat, FreBat. It appears to

12 have come from the headquarters in the sector.

13 Q. Why do you think it has come from the headquarters?

14 A. Because we're talking about the Russian Battalion, FreBat 2, a

15 liaison officer from the Serbian side. All those individuals would have

16 reported up through the headquarters, the sector headquarters.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: And could I ask the registrar to please go to

18 e-court page 7 of this ter number.

19 Q. Do you recognise the type of document that is now on the screen in

20 front of you, General?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. What kind of a document is this?

23 A. This would be a typical summary of incidents that would happen

24 that we would produce for not only the commander but for other people,

25 including our headquarters.

Page 1795

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I move the admission into evidence of

2 65 ter number 2009.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P203, Your Honours.


6 Q. General, I want to turn now to the topic of mortars.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just before you leave that.

8 May I ask the brigadier, a sniper aiming at a moving tram - and I

9 realise this probably begs the question - would have been aiming at the

10 tram generally rather than any particular individual, any particular

11 passenger.

12 THE WITNESS: Most snipers would probably try to pick out a target

13 inside that tram.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Even though the tram is moving?

15 THE WITNESS: They're taught how to shoot moving targets.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Thank you.


18 Q. General, you've testified that on two occasions in your career you

19 have commanded -- I don't remember if it was a mortar platoon or a mortar

20 company. But based on your training and experience, are you able to watch

21 the effects of a mortar crew's work and tell how good that mortar crew is?

22 A. Based on my two command times, commanding a mortar platoon, I can

23 just a competent mortar crew, and the mortar crews that I saw in Sarajevo

24 were competent. They could hit, generally, the area they were looking at

25 firing at.

Page 1796

1 Q. Was the Serbian fire onto the city of Sarajevo ever, in your

2 opinion, responding to fire onto the Serbs by the defenders of the city?

3 A. Sometimes when the Muslims would fire out, the Serbians, in

4 general, would fire back, and normally when that happened the Serbs would

5 always fire back. A lot more came back than went out. And in one

6 particular case, the Muslims actually fired at the Lukavica corps

7 headquarters, which was completely against the convention when I was

8 there. Neither corps headquarters was attacked. And the result of the

9 Muslims firing against the Serbian corps headquarters was a huge barrage

10 coming back at the city.

11 Q. When you say coming back at the city, did this barrage come on to

12 the source of fire at Lukavica? Did it go elsewhere? Could you

13 elaborate, please.

14 A. The return fire did not go back to where the origin was. It was

15 just fired at the city. In fact, it was firing around Debelo Brdo and the

16 area just around Miljacka river, on the Muslim side. But it was -- it was

17 intense.

18 Q. In your time with the Canadian army, have you become familiar with

19 a term of art, proportionality of response? Just yes or no, please.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you summarise for the Judges the training that you have had to

22 help you under the concept, proportionality of response?

23 A. It is a foundation of the training that any Canadian soldier

24 receives, which includes rules of engagement, military justified,

25 proportionality, and collateral damage. It is a key aspect of how we

Page 1797

1 apply force in the Canadian forces.

2 Q. As a result of the training that you have had which you described

3 as a core feature of being a Canadian soldier, could you describe the

4 hallmarks or the criteria of what you would consider to be a proportional

5 response or, to put the question a little differently, without giving us

6 the answer, tell us how you would go about analysing the question, was a

7 response proportionate?

8 A. We would go through an estimate process of determining the

9 military necessity of returning fire, what type of fire we were --

10 actually had received to begin with, and normally you try to return fire

11 with the same type of fire and minimise the effects to collateral, being

12 people, places or things. And let me give you an example. If a sniper

13 shot at me, I would try to fire back with a sniper. Precise with precise.

14 And try not to overuse the force that I have in the effect that I want to

15 deliver at the other end.

16 Q. I want you now to apply those criteria or that method of analysing

17 the question of proportionality.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, before listening to the

20 question I believe that is going in the direction which is a bit -- we're

21 looking at facts only. We're busy without a job because we're looking at

22 -- you were supposed to look at facts, and I think that the direction

23 that we're taking right now is going to leave you without a job.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but one of the issues that the Chamber will

25 have to determine is proportionality and the whole question of excessive

Page 1798

1 force, and this is a witness who has had practical experience in the

2 field. I think his evidence can only be helpful, and I have already

3 identified the limits of questioning of this kind, and as far as I can

4 see, Mr. Docherty is keeping within those limits. The evidence so far

5 from the witness is that you return sniper with sniper, precise with

6 precise, and mortar with mortar.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. But again, further complicated by the

8 fact that -- for example, we could not return fire at the airport. At the

9 east end of the airport where the Serbian position was that would fire on

10 to the airport, we could not return fire because we did not have

11 precise -- enough -- a weapons system that was precise enough to get out

12 to that range without causing potential collateral damage to the civilians

13 who were around the firing unit that fired back at us.

14 So, again, we identified the target that we had to shoot back. It

15 was a military necessity. It was proportional we could use a weapon

16 system, but we didn't have a weapons system that had enough precision that

17 could ensure mitigating potential collateral damage to the people who

18 lived around that firing unit. So that -- in that case, we did not return

19 fire. So like with like. Proportionate, define military necessity, but

20 we couldn't establish collateral damage. It was too much.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation], Your Honour, please, I have one

23 thing to add with the interpretation. I'm really sorry, I know that it's

24 a difficult job, just like ours. But here what I've told you is not what

25 I meant. It was a bit -- I would never dare say this. I think the

Page 1799

1 interpreter went a bit too far. I would never have talked to you in this

2 way. So I really apologise. I -- this is not reflecting what I said.

3 This is not what I meant -- it's what I meant but I wouldn't have said it

4 this way.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


7 Q. General, could you please use the methodology that you have just

8 been describing to us and apply it to the Bosnian Serb response to the

9 Bosnian Muslim attack on the Lukavica Barracks that you were just talking

10 about.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there now, Mr. Docherty, you are going to

12 be asking him whether a particular situation -- in a particular situation

13 the response was proportional.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: And I thought, and I apologise if I'm wrong, but I

15 thought from the discussion with the Witness Nicolai that having gone

16 through the preceding questions that that question was allowed by the

17 Chamber. If I am mistaken in that, I will withdraw the question.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I'll do now is I'll take the break and we'll

19 ruminate on it.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

22 February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.