Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1983

1 Tuesday, 13 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I understand there's a matter

6 that you wish to raise. We'll hear you.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this is a matter

8 that I should respond to in private session, I can do so.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes. Private session.

10 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

11 [Private session]

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Page 1985

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit and you may continue with the

15 examination-in-chief.


17 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Knustad.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. Now, we left yesterday and you had told the Court that you arrived

22 in Sarajevo in June 1995, and you said that you were positioned with the

23 Sector Sarajevo, UNMO Sector Sarajevo. And you said that you had --

24 before you were transferred to Sarajevo, you underwent some training in

25 Zagreb?

Page 1986

1 And I just wanted to ask you, what kind of training did you

2 undertake?

3 A. Well, first of all, it was ordinary administrative checking; but

4 besides that and based on the knowledge that UNMO headquarters in Zagreb

5 had about the situation, we were also given some lectures in especially

6 crater analysis after impacts. So we had some lectures on that as well in

7 Zagreb before we went out.

8 Q. How long did that training last for?

9 A. Six days.

10 Q. Now, let's move to Sarajevo, and please tell the Court how many

11 UNMOs teams were there in Sarajevo at the time you arrived there?

12 A. In Sector Sarajevo, there were four UNMO teams, each of them

13 consisting of ten military observers from various countries. In addition

14 to that, it was UNMO Sector headquarters in the PTT building in Sarajevo.

15 So, in all, it was around 630 military observers, four teams; one team in

16 the eastern part, Stari Grad area of Sarajevo; two teams in the middle

17 part; and one team in the western part, west of the airport.

18 Q. Which team were you assigned to?

19 A. I was assigned to the team at eastern part of Sarajevo, at that

20 time named Kilowatt Charlie 1, which had a team base in Sedrenik, and our

21 area of responsibility was Stari Grad, the eastern part towards the

22 Presidency and to what is now the American embassy.

23 Q. When you say Stari Grad, do you know the old town?

24 A. That is the old part of the city, yes.

25 Q. Now, how many UNMO members were in your team?

Page 1987

1 A. In my team, we were most of the time ten UNMOs; but at all times,

2 there were at least one UNMO on leave.

3 Q. Who was your team leader, if you had one?

4 A. My team leader, when I arrived, was Dutch Lieutenant-Colonel Harry

5 Konings.

6 Q. Within your team base, did you have any observation points in and

7 around -- well, within your area of responsibility?

8 A. The team had the responsibility to man observation post at the

9 southern part of the city, south of the district area, more specific, the

10 Colina Kapa. And our team manned that observation post 24 hours a day.

11 Q. For the benefit of the court, we will -- I will ask you to mark

12 these positions on a map. But you said observation post, was there a

13 shorthand term used to describe observation post while you were there?

14 A. Sorry, I didn't understand.

15 Q. Was the term "observation post" shortened in a way?

16 A. Well, it wasn't shortened. I mean, we had the responsible to man

17 that 24 hours a day, and we shifted duties every 48 hours.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think what he meant was whether there was

19 another term that was used to describe "observation post" as maybe an

20 abbreviation.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. It was named in military

22 terms, OP1.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm grateful for your guidance, Mr. President.

24 Q. The team based in Sedrenik, what was that called?

25 A. That was called Kilowatt Charlie 1, KC1, in the Sedrenik area?

Page 1988

1 Q. And the observation post in Colina Kapa, what that was called?

2 A. That was called OP1.

3 Q. At the time that you arrived Sarajevo, were there any United

4 Nations military observers in the Republika Srpska?

5 A. At that time, there were no military observers in Republika

6 Srpska, and the reason for that was that UN withdraw all military

7 observers under Serb-held territory after the hostage crisis in May 1995.

8 Q. As an UNMO in your team, describe briefly the tasks that you would

9 undertake?

10 A. The main purpose of much UN Military Observer is obviously to

11 supervise a cease-fire. At this point, there was no real cease-fire, at

12 least not in Sector Sarajevo. Our main task, as military observers, is to

13 observe, investigate, and report. And as the situation was in Sarajevo, a

14 lot of our duties went to observation and investigation of shelling and

15 sniping incidents.

16 Q. And in your approach, generally, in the UNMO's approach to their

17 work, were you guided by any the principles or standards in your work?

18 A. Well, the most important principle was that we had to be 100 per

19 cent impartial, and for a profession officer that is not a very difficult

20 task. Even at the stage, we were only on the -- on the Bosnian government

21 side as military observers.

22 Q. Did the thoroughness or the rigour of your investigations depend

23 upon the ethnicity of the victims in any way?

24 A. As the situation in Sarajevo was in 1995 and even before that,

25 it's a mixed of ethnicities. There are both Bosnian Muslims, there are

Page 1989

1 Serb Orthodox, and there are Croat Catholics, all mixed. And there were,

2 at the time I was in Sarajevo from June 1995 until December 1995, also

3 mixed marriages. And as I can recall, the people of Sarajevo mainly

4 considered themselves Sarajevo people and were not at that point very

5 concerned about which ethnicity they belonged to, to use that term.

6 Q. So I take it that in your investigations, it did not matter

7 whether the victims were Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat, or Bosnian Muslim?

8 A. For us, in our investigation, it certainly didn't matter. But an

9 important part of our task was to confirm casualties, and we quickly

10 learned how we could identify the different ethnicities by the name. So

11 it was not difficult to see whether it was Serb, Croat, or Bosnian Muslim;

12 that was a casualty in that sense.

13 Q. In your investigations, did you also determine, at least with

14 respect to shelling, the direction of fire?

15 A. The direction of fire was probably one of the most important

16 aspects of our investigation, and the way we did that was based on our

17 training in crater analysis and the crater that is caused by an impact

18 from either artillery or mortar. And based on that, we could tell with

19 quite a good certainty which direction it was fired from.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned mortars. Do you know what a modified air bomb

21 is?

22 A. Yes. I know what a modified air bomb is, and we were briefed

23 about that from Sector Sarajevo. That is mainly a bomb meant to be

24 dropped from aircraft; but in this case, the Bosnian Serb modified those

25 bombs with a propulsion device so that it could be fired from the ground.

Page 1990

1 Q. Given your experience with artillery pieces that you told the

2 Court in the beginning, what can you say about the accuracy or inaccuracy

3 of these modified air bombs?

4 A. These modified air bombs are highly inaccurate, and that's because

5 there is no really steering device on them. You can only direct them in a

6 certain direction. I can't see any certain military purpose of these kind

7 of weapons. They also were very slow in flight and had a considerable and

8 very noticeable sound during the flight.

9 Q. Are you able to give a figure as to the -- well, let's say the

10 impact, the radius of impact of a modified air bomb?

11 A. Well, it's very difficult to say, because they are -- well, let me

12 use the term, homemade devices. But I wouldn't think that it would be

13 possible to -- to have the impact in anything less than one kilometre

14 accuracy as a diameter of the impact.

15 Q. Was there a term or a phrase that the UNMOs gave to these modified

16 air bombs while you were in Sarajevo?

17 A. I don't recall any special term.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was their limit? How far could they travel?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends on the propulsion

20 device on them, but the knowledge we had at the moment was that they

21 couldn't be fired from -- from more than maximum six, 7.000 metres and,

22 as I said, highly inaccurate. I would say it's mainly a weapon to create

23 fear and not for any particular military purpose, based on my knowledge as

24 an officer.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you also said that they were very

Page 1991

1 slow-moving.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On one occasion, I witnessed

3 myself a modified air bomb fired from an area we called Sharpstone, which

4 was just a few hundred metres from our team base; and we could see it

5 during the first part of the flight, but we didn't see where it impacted.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: But are you able to say anything about the speed

7 at which it travelled?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is very difficult to determine,

9 but it was certainly a lot slower than, for example, a 120-millimetre

10 mortar grenade. But I can't be more accurate about the speed.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, just to continue

13 with the President's question. Many expert witnesses told us about these

14 modified air bombs, and you also are saying that they were quite slow.

15 What was the propulsion system like? Was it a rocket? A drone? How did

16 they -- how high did they go into flight?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The propulsion system was a rocket

18 that was detached to the bomb itself, and I don't have any details, but

19 are placed on a launching device so that it could be just fired out in the

20 air.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.


23 Q. Mr. Knustad, based on your previous answers and also your

24 experience, what can say about the appropriateness of -- of the use of

25 modified air bombs in an urban environment like Sarajevo?

Page 1992

1 A. Well, to put it mildly, it's highly inappropriate because, as I

2 stated, this is not a weapon that has any the direct military purposes.

3 And any forces deployed around Sarajevo would have to know that they there

4 would be a lot of collateral damage, as we call it, a lot of civilian

5 inflicted by the use of these kind of modified air bombs.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean when you say it was not a weapon

7 that had a direct military purpose?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Normally, in military terms, you

9 would have a specific target. If you fire artillery or a mortar, you do

10 it towards a target which has a position. With the inaccuracy of the

11 modified air bombs, there couldn't possibly be more than an area target.

12 And in a populated city, full of civilian houses very close to

13 each other, it's obvious that the use of such a weapon would also cause a

14 lot of destruction and damage on the civilian population and

15 infrastructure.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: It may be more accurate to say it had no proper

17 military purpose, but that's just a nicety. I understand what you what

18 you have said.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: May I proceed, Your Honour?



22 Q. Now, with respect to modified air bombs and mortars, can you tell

23 the Trial Chamber roughly how many incidents did you investigate?

24 A. Well, it's a fairly high number of incidents. I arrived in Sector

25 Sarajevo on the 21st of June; and on a normal day, there would be more

Page 1993

1 than 100 impacts around the city, both from artillery and from mortar and

2 from rockets. Due to this, it's obvious that four teams of UNMOs wouldn't

3 be able to conduct investigation of all those impacts, so we had to

4 prioritise; and in that sense, we had to make hard priorities and the

5 priorities were impacts that inflicted casualties.

6 Q. So just sticking to the incidents that you yourself investigated

7 with your team, what can you say about the character of targets that you

8 investigated?

9 A. At the first glance, the targets might seem random; but after

10 being there a while and getting some experience on the -- on the

11 investigations, it was obvious that some of those areas that were targeted

12 were areas where people would gather. That would be like areas to pick up

13 food, areas where you could collect water, areas where there was narrows

14 in the roads that people had to do go through. It was also a lot of

15 investigations in -- in parks, in cemeteries, and also around the Kosovo

16 Hospital.

17 Q. Now, I want to move to a specific incident. Firstly, do you

18 recall an incident on the 28th of August, 1995?

19 A. I do recall this -- this special incident on the 28th of August.

20 Q. And where did that incident occur?

21 A. That was one impact in the Markale area in the middle of Sarajevo

22 city, and in our team's area of responsibility.

23 Q. Where were you on that day?

24 A. On the 28th of August, I assumed duty on the mentioned OP1, around

25 9.00 in the morning; and during the morning, which was a very clear and

Page 1994

1 bright morning, without very much wind, I was on duty together with an

2 UNMO colleague from OP1.

3 Q. Who was your UNMO colleague?

4 A. That was Major Paul Conway from Ireland.?

5 Q. Was there anybody else with you and Mr. Conway?

6 A. There was also an interpreter since we always brought an

7 interpreter with us, both on the OP for 24 hours and when we went on

8 parole in the city.

9 Q. And you had assumed your duty at the OP1, for how long was that

10 duty to be for?

11 A. We were there for 48 hours, so we relieved two UNMOs that had been

12 there for 48 hours.

13 Q. Now, you earlier told the Court that the OP1 was in Colina Kapa;

14 do you recall that?

15 A. Yes, I recall that.

16 Q. What kind of view did you have over the city and in particular the

17 old town from that area?

18 A. From a military point of view, this is sort of a perfect place to

19 have an observation post. Because covering the old part of the city, you

20 had a very good view towards the front line on the northern end of the

21 city and, of course, all the streets, houses, and everything happening

22 down in the city from the old part, from Bascarsija in particular and

23 towards Skenderija and the western part of the city.

24 Q. You got there at 9.00 on the morning of the 28th; and during that

25 time, during the morning, was there anything significant that you heard or

Page 1995

1 viewed while you were there?

2 A. Well, on the 28th, there had been actually for a couple of days

3 less intensity of shelling. I noticed it was a fairly quiet day, but

4 still we could hear a lot of noises, like the activity in the -- in the

5 city. And -- yeah.

6 Q. So while you were on the observation point, did you see anything

7 happen in the city?

8 A. Well, around 11.00, as I recall it, I first saw a smokestack

9 coming up from the -- what I immediately identified to be the area of the

10 market-place, Markale, and that is approximately 2.000 metres from the

11 observation post. And with a sound of speed, five, six, seconds after, I

12 heard an impact from that area that I understood came from -- from the

13 smokestack that I observed.

14 Q. Just so we're clear about the term that you used, what is a

15 smokestack, please?

16 A. Smokestack is the smoke that would develop from an impact of, for

17 example, a mortar grenade or an artillery grenade, mainly grey towards

18 black of colour.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would apologise. I would just ask

20 my learned friends if they're conferring, to at least keep it quiet

21 because it is sometimes off putting.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, did you hear that, Ms. Isailovic and Mr.

23 Tapuskovic? Your whispering is being seen as a campaign against the

24 Prosecution.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: That is not quite what I said.

Page 1996

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was being light-hearted there, but the

2 Prosecutor was complaining about the consistent and persistent talk there.

3 There is no need to explain anything. Just be quiet, Mr. Tapuskovic. We

4 know that you didn't mean any disrespect.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't speak

6 English, unfortunately, and this makes my job quite difficult. I can't

7 read the transcript, and I wanted to consult with my colleague to check

8 whether the witness first heard the sound and then saw the smoke or vice

9 versa. And I was merely trying to confirm that with my colleague.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, please do so in a manner that is not

11 audible.

12 Yes, please continue.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Well, let me ask you that. With respect to what you saw and what

15 you heard, what was the sequence?

16 A. Well, as I said, the OP1 position is approximately 2.000 metres

17 from the market-place area. I observed, first, the smokestack; and since

18 the speed the sound of speed is around 300 metres per second, it took

19 approximately five, six seconds until I heard the impact after I saw the

20 smokestack.

21 Q. Did your colleague, Mr. Conway, also experience what you

22 experienced?

23 A. Actually, Paul Conway was manning the OP itself. I observed this

24 in the front of the house that we used as a base for our OP, which has

25 very good view above the city as well. I knew that I had more experience

Page 1997

1 as a military observer than Paul Conway; so immediately after I observed

2 the smokestack and heard the impact, I went approximately 150 metres to

3 the OP position, where Paul Conway was, to confirm whether he had heard

4 and seen the same. And he confirmed to me that he had seen the same as

5 me.

6 Q. Once it was established that you had both seen the same, did-- was

7 this reported?

8 A. Yes. First of all, it was written in the log that we kept on the

9 observation post, and then it was reported by radio directly to the UNMO

10 headquarters in the PTT building, as was the procedure for these kind of

11 impacts.

12 Q. Who actually reported it to the headquarters?

13 A. Paul Conway reported it to the headquarters via radio.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would like to show the witness 65

15 ter 2632, and I'm interested in showing page 11 of that document.

16 Q. Mr. Knustad, do you see a document on your screen there?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Now, on the left-hand side, do you see a reference to your

19 observation point?

20 A. Yes, I do. On the first line with the day-time group, the

21 28/11.10, Bravo reported from OP1.

22 Q. Do you see where it says, "105th BBD BiH?"

23 A. Yes. That is additional information that is put in from the UNMO

24 headquarters to describe in a readable way actually where the impact was.

25 And this refers to the headquarters of the army of BiH and 105th Brigade,

Page 1998

1 which we used as a reference point in our reports to the UN.

2 Q. In this -- this reference point, does this mean that the -- the

3 target was in fact the 105th Brigade headquarters?

4 A. No, it does not mean that was the target. We can't imagine what

5 could have been actually the target for this impact. It's simply a name

6 that refers to a known place, and it's a description instead of just a map

7 reference.

8 Q. Now, you earlier said that your team leader was Mr. Konings; do

9 you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he involved in any way in an investigation of this incident?

12 A. Well, since I listen into, of course, the communication on the

13 radio that also my team leader Harry Konings had, I was informed that he

14 was task to go to the place of the impact and do the investigation.

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would also like to bring up 65 ter

16 891, pages 37 to 42. Actually, the first three pages of this document

17 have also been admitted as P0085, if that helps.

18 May we go to the third page of this, please. All right. That is

19 the chart I want to have shown. Is it possible to move it, so it can be

20 seen? Thank you.

21 Q. Mr. Knustad, do you see a chart on your screen there?

22 A. Yes, I do. With the heading "crater analysis."

23 Q. At the first line of that chart, what does that refer to?

24 A. That refers to the time of the investigation that was done.

25 Q. When you say "the investigation that was done," are you referring

Page 1999

1 to the investigation at the Markale market?

2 A. Yes. I'm referring to the investigation on the Markale market,

3 which -- and this is the same analysis of the impact that I stated that I

4 observed from OP1.

5 Q. The fourth column from the left, do you see where it says

6 "bearing."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you see it's figures there?

9 A. It shows 170 degrees plus/minus 5 degrees.

10 Q. And what does that indicate?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just did not understand whether

13 the witness himself worked on this document. Is this document a result of

14 his own research? Could the Prosecutor perhaps clarify this with the

15 witness so that I can follow.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ask the witness.


18 Q. Mr. Knustad, did you produce this document?

19 A. I didn't produce that document itself, but this document is from

20 the UNMO team that I was a part of. And we conducted our duties as a

21 team, but, obviously, this was made by Lieutenant-Colonel Konings, who was

22 actually the UNMO at the impact site.

23 Q. You were just -- you were just about to -- I asked what the 170

24 degree, plus/minus 5 degrees indicated meant. You were about to answer,

25 so could you please proceed?

Page 2000

1 A. Yes. In this case, as it is written above the bearing, meaning

2 from which direction, they determined where the impact came from. So that

3 means that from the impact, the direction of fire, it came from 170

4 degrees.

5 Q. If I was to ask you to -- to indicate this on a map using a ruler

6 and a protractor, would you be able to do that?

7 A. Yes, I can do that.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I have copies of maps that I want to

9 show the witness, and I have copies for Your Honours and counsel. I think

10 counsel already has a copy.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, is this a 92 ter witness?

14 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Mr. President, he is a live witness.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: He is a live witness. Okay.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: But I expect to be finished with him in the next 15

17 minutes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.


20 Q. Mr. Knustad, first of all, on that map, can you please mark the

21 location of OP1.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Can you just put beside that the letters "OP" and the figure "1."

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. To the -- well, can you mark the front lines --

Page 2001

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor. Is there a chance that you can

2 reduce the light on the ELMO a bit, because it's almost unreadable on --

3 on our screens.

4 Yes, that's better. That's better. Thanks.


6 Q. Firstly, from OP1, how far were the confrontation lines from your

7 position?

8 A. Well, I know that the front part of the army of BiH confrontation

9 line was approximately 200 metres to the south of OP1; and then,

10 obviously, you would have some no man's land, and I would estimate and we

11 were briefed that the Bosnian Serb front line was approximately 1500

12 metres south of OP1, directly to the south.

13 Q. Can you mark on the map the position of the Bosnian government

14 confrontation line?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. So it's correct that everything beyond that line, as we're looking

17 in this picture to the bottom, was territory -- was territory of the VRS?

18 A. That's correct. That was VRS territory.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has said that

21 the positions of the army of Republika Srpska were 1800 [as interpreted]

22 metres away from this line, did I understand that correctly? Could he

23 draw a line to show the direction. He said that the army of Republika

24 Srpska positions were 15 or 1800 metres away from these positions here.

25 Could he just draw a line to show us graphically what he meant.

Page 2002

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, please remember that you will have your

2 turn to cross-examine. But if this is something which will be useful to

3 the Chamber, I see no harm in the witness doing it. Let him do it.

4 Yes, let the witness draw that line.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

7 I would just know, though, for the record that the witness spoke

8 of 1500 metres, not 1800.

9 Is that correct?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct, Mr. President, and also from the

11 1500 metres south of OP1.

12 Q. Witness, just to be clear, can you mark beside those lines "ABiH"

13 and "VRS."

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Now, with -- if it's possible with a finer pen, can you use a

16 protractor a ruler -- well, first of all, let me ask you to identify

17 Markale market.

18 A. I marked it with a cross.

19 Q. Very well. Can you now with the protractor and ruler draw the

20 direction 170 degrees, plus/minus 5.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, before my next set of questions, I just

23 want to the ask you, in your experience, how many times have you heard a

24 mortar being fired?

25 A. As I stated yesterday, my branch in -- in the navy was artillery,

Page 2003

1 coast artillery. I was trained with the artillery, and I --


3 Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know

5 whether this will be benefit you as well, but why doesn't he draw a line

6 from their observation post to Markale. I don't understand the purpose of

7 this line. Why isn't a line drawn from the location where they had their

8 observation post to Markale market, so that this map really serves a

9 purpose.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you can ask the witness to do

12 that in cross-examination.


14 Q. Yes, Mr. Knustad, you were saying, in the navy coast artillery I

15 was trained with..." If you could please continue?

16 A. Yes. I have a lot of experience in observing impacts from my

17 service as an artillery officer in the coast artillery. Part of the coast

18 artillery was also mortars. It's very difficult to determine the exact

19 number, but I have seen, observed, and heard probably a lot more than 100

20 mortar rounds, specifically 81-millimetre during my duty before 1995.

21 Q. What about 120-millimetre mortars?

22 A. We didn't have 120-millimetre mortars in our navy, but,

23 unfortunately, I got to see a lot of 120-millimetre impacts during my

24 service in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Is the sound of a 120-millimetre mortar being fired louder or

Page 2004

1 softer to a sound of a 82-millimetre [sic] mortar being fired?

2 A. 120-millimetre is louder as well softer than an 81-millimetre.

3 81-millimetre will have a sharper noise than a 120-millimetre.

4 Q. Well, when you say louder, what do you mean by that?

5 A. Well, there is more decible when a 120-millimetre mortar is fired

6 than when an 81-millimetre is being fired. I would, based on my

7 experience, say that it's easier to hear a 120-millimetre mortar being

8 fired on long distance than an 81-millimetre.

9 Q. What is the maximum distance one can be at from the place of

10 firing the mortar where you could hear that firing sound?

11 A. Well, I have been on all kind of distances referred to -- mortar

12 fire. Everything from two metre behind to at least five, six kilometres

13 away from the mortar. And depending on the weather conditions, the wind,

14 and other variables, I would say it would at least be possible to hear a

15 120-millimetre mortar being fired, at least, let's say from a four to five

16 kilometres distance.

17 Q. Let me ask you this: On the day that you saw the plume of smoke,

18 from your position, did you hear a mortar being fired from within the

19 confrontation lines?

20 A. I did not hear any mortar being fired until I saw the smokestack

21 or heard the impact on the market-place.

22 Q. If the mortar had been fired from within the confrontation lines

23 along the direction of fire as you have indicated here, would you from

24 your position have heard that mortar being fired?

25 A. I would certainly have heard any 120-millimetre mortar being fired

Page 2005

1 from within the confrontation line and, in particular, in the -- direction

2 of fire that I have indicated on the map.

3 Q. Behind your position at OP1 in VRS territory, is the land -- is

4 there a hill, is it elevated, or is it flat?

5 A. The OP1 is located on a slope going down towards the city, with a

6 hill behind to the south on the map. There is a ridge on the top, and

7 behind that it's going down, again, towards the Serb-held territory.

8 Q. If the mortar had been fired from the just behind the VRS lines,

9 would you have heard that being fired?

10 A. I would say that it's very possible that a mortar could have been

11 fired from behind the VRS line, but I wouldn't hear it due to the

12 configuration of the terrain and the way the sound would move behind the

13 hill, behind my position.

14 Q. So can we put it this way: Are you able to exclude the

15 possibility of the mortar being fired from within the confrontation lines

16 along that flight path?

17 A. I can exclude the possibility that any mortar was fired from

18 within the -- the ABiH territory. And I want to add to this that we, as

19 military observers, were aware of the fact that there were speculations

20 that the Bosnian government forces were actually firing at their own

21 people from within the confrontation line, so these conspiracy theories

22 and allegations we were very aware of and very observant for those kind of

23 things when being on a duty within the confrontation line.

24 Q. I will get to that in a moment. I asked you whether you could

25 exclude the possibility of it being fired from within the confrontation

Page 2006

1 line. Can you exclude the possibility that it was fired from outside the

2 confrontation line; that is, in VRS territory?

3 A. I cannot exclude the fact that it was fired from VRS territory and

4 mainly because of the configuration of the terrain as I explained.

5 Because in that case, it would have been fired from behind the hill where

6 I was located.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure whether I missed, but did he explain

8 why he can exclude the possibility that the mortar was fired from within

9 the ABiH territory?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I submit that he did, on account

11 of -- on account of the fact that he would have been in a position to hear

12 it, if it had been fired.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is, as you can see on the map,

15 only one kilometre of distance from my position in OP1 towards the west

16 and it's angle that I draw and where that crosses the front line of the

17 ABiH army. So within that short distance, I can state that I would have

18 heard any mortar fired from within that area of my position towards the

19 angle indicating the direction of fire.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


22 Q. Mr. Knustad, you gave an answer just a moment ago about

23 accusations or conspiracies theories the Bosnians were shelling

24 themselves. Did you in your time in Sarajevo ever come to a conclusion or

25 perform an investigation where this indeed took place?

Page 2007

1 A. We did a large number of investigations, and I personally myself

2 did a large part of those investigations within the confrontation line,

3 and we were never able to determine that any of those investigations that

4 we did were actually as -- an impact as a result of fire from -- from

5 inside the confrontation line.

6 Q. The fact that you did not hear the mortar being fired from within

7 the confrontation lines, was that reported or relayed to the persons doing

8 the investigation of the Markale incident?

9 A. Yes. I reported that to my team leader, Harry Konings, on the day

10 after the incident, on the 29th of August. And I reported that to him,

11 because I knew that would be very vital information in all the information

12 covering this particular incident. And I told my team leader, Colonel

13 Konings, that I did not hear any outgoing mortar rounds from within the

14 confrontation line.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The answer which you gave previously to the

16 Prosecutor, was that confined to investigations that you were personally

17 involved in with others?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That refers to both investigations

19 that I personally did and investigations that my team but other observers

20 in the team did. So during my time in the team in Sarajevo, we were never

21 able to -- to determine that any mortar or artillery was actually fired

22 from within the confrontation line on those investigations we did.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


25 Q. Mr. Knustad, just upon your answer where you said you reported the

Page 2008

1 fact that you did not hear the mortar being fired from within the

2 confrontation lines to Mr. Konings, can I just -- if we go back to the

3 e-court and the exhibit that is currently on the screen. If we can go two

4 pages forward from that, please.

5 Do you see a page there on your screen?

6 A. Yes, I see a page with a point for a meeting.

7 Q. Can you go down to the paragraph which has the 2 beside it. Do

8 you see that there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you see where it's the letter A?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you just read that paragraph, if you can, please?

13 A. "In the time frame of the five impacts UNMOs in the [indiscernible]

14 team working on OP1," I can't read the next two words, "heard no outgoing

15 mortar rounds neither from Bosnian army territory."

16 Q. I think it says, "general area."

17 A. "General area Bistrik and Colina Kapa nor from Bosnian Serb army

18 territory."

19 Q. Does that reflect report that you gave to Colonel Konings?

20 A. Yes, it was. Neither myself or Paul Conway heard any outgoing

21 mortar rounds, and that is correct what is stated here. That is what we

22 reported, we did not hear any outgoing round.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, can I just inquire as to how long

24 I've taken?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's good to see that you are being

Page 2009

1 sensitive to the time.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President that is the examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 Mr. Tapuskovic, you would, of course, have the same time as the

5 Prosecutor, which is one hour. But if you need additional time, you can

6 apply for it.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will decide about that later.

8 I believe that I will need a bit more, given the examination-in-chief.

9 But bear with me for one moment, please.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] We will have our break soon, and I will be able

12 to prepare myself over the break.

13 I have several questions, but, first of all, thank you, Your

14 Honours.

15 I really am not versed in technology.

16 Mr. Witness, could you please explain certain matters that were

17 the subject of the examination-in-chief. Rest assured, I will not be

18 mentioning any conspiracy theories; however, I will ask you to honour the

19 basic principles of mathematics and other sciences which are relevant to

20 the events in Sarajevo. I never contemplated conspiracy theories, but I

21 will ask you to be guided in your answers by the basic scientific

22 principles.

23 You said that you completed training in Zagreb over the course of

24 six days; is that right?

25 A. I said that and that's correct, but that is in addition to the

Page 2010

1 three weeks military observer course that I attended in Finland during the

2 spring/winter of 1995.

3 Q. You also said that on the eve of your departure, your speciality

4 were craters. Is that right? And I'm speaking of the month of June 1995?

5 A. The UNMO headquarters in Zagreb were very aware of the number of

6 impacts that were in Sarajevo and other parts of the city, and that's why

7 they consider it important that we got a refreshments of our knowledge in

8 the conduct of crater analysis, which is the process where you determine

9 from which direction the weapon was fired and what kind of weapon that was

10 used based on the fragments that you would find resting on the impact

11 site.

12 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you said that you took up your duties in

13 Sarajevo, firmly believing that you would be doing your job in the most

14 impartial of manners; is that what you said?

15 A. Yes. Impartiality is the basis. Impartiality the basis of the

16 conduct of a military observer; and as I also stated, the main purpose was

17 to supervise a cease-fire. But in this way, there was no cease-fire to

18 supervise. But as professional officers, we would have to stick to the

19 rule about impartiality.

20 Q. As I understand it, you arrived in the middle of the offensive

21 launched by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the Republika Srpska

22 army. For several day, perhaps ten days even, you did not leave the

23 premises or could not leave your premises to attend to your duties; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That is correct. In fact, we had a troubled trip by car from

Page 2011

1 Split to Sarajevo, and we were held up in one area which is Konjic, just

2 south-west to Sarajevo. And due to our own safety, we had to take cover

3 over there because there was lot of fighting going on between Bosnian army

4 forces and Serb forces in the area between ourselves and Sarajevo.

5 Q. Witness, that was not my question. I asked you something else,

6 and I would like you to answer that. As you arrived in Sarajevo, you were

7 unable to carry out your duties for several days due to the fierce

8 offensive raging at the time between the two warring parties?

9 A. No, that is not correct. I arrived in Sarajevo on the 21st of

10 July, and we arrived from Igman and had support from French battalion as

11 protection to travel down Igman and into -- to Sector Sarajevo.

12 Q. Very well. In view of the fact that you arrived at the time when

13 there was ongoing fighting and your purpose being to impartially analyse

14 craters, did you throughout your stay in Sarajevo examine any craters

15 caused by the Bosnia-Herzegovina side to prove your impartiality, or did

16 you only go out into the area held by the Republika Srpska army to examine

17 the craters there?

18 A. We did not have to prove any impartiality. But as I stated

19 before, we had to make strong priorities as a way which impacts we would

20 investigate. All those impacts were within the confrontation line on

21 ABiH-held territory because, as I mentioned earlier, we as military

22 observers were not allowed to go to the Bosnian Serb-held territory.

23 Q. In the early days of your stay in Sarajevo, I don't have time now

24 to show you a document because it's in the language you don't understand.

25 It was authored by Bosnia-Herzegovina. At the time that you arrived, did

Page 2012

1 you hear up to 100.000 bullets fired by the side of the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm not exaggerating.

3 I will in due time show this document to the Trial Chamber. I

4 just wanted to know whether you had heard that at the time of the

5 offensive of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it would so happen that from

6 the side of Sarajevo, you would hear as many as 100.000 rounds upon the

7 areas held by the army of Republika Srpska.

8 A. Well, I have no comments as to the number of rounds. It's,

9 obviously, impossible to count 100.000 rounds fired, but what I do confirm

10 is that there was fighting going on along the front line around Sarajevo.

11 That I can confirm, but not the number of sounds.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: . Yes, but did you hear any rounds at all, never

13 mind how many, fired by the Bosnian Muslim side?

14 THE WITNESS: There were rounds of small arms fired from both

15 sides. We went to sleep on small arms fire, and we woke up -- on small

16 arms fire. It was continuous small arms fire in -- in the whole area

17 surrounding our team base in Sedrenik.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know what

22 your decision will be, what your ruling will be, but let us use this

23 several minutes that we have before the break. The map that I showed you

24 in private session, yesterday, will be used by the Defence with every

25 witness, save for the victim witnesses. I ask for your leave to use it.

Page 2013

1 I delivered a copy to the OTP already.

2 By your leave, can I put several questions to this witness in

3 relation to the map? I'm sure it is admissable. I delivered the map

4 today. I didn't do so yesterday because I didn't have copies available.


6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just fetch it.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: First, Mr. Sachdeva is on his feet.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President I apologise, but I would -- while

10 this is being set up, I inadvertently forgot to tender the map that the

11 witness marked in my examination.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: If I might tender that as an exhibit.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be admitted.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P209, Your Honours.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with the assistance

18 of the interpreters, I will be going through this and speaking slowly.

19 At the top, it says, "The decision by the SRK commander," do you

20 see that?

21 Can the interpreters -- did you hear interpretation of what I was

22 saying.

23 A. No. Can you please repeat that.

24 Q. At the top of the map, it says, "The decision by the SRK

25 commander."

Page 2014

1 A. Okay. I understand.

2 Q. But you can't confirm that, of course.

3 On the left-hand side, it says -- or, rather, on the right-hand

4 side it says, "Military secret, strictly confidential." Do you see that

5 on the right-hand side?

6 A. I see there are Cyrillic letters there, But I'm not an expert in

7 Cyrillics. I can't read what is written.

8 Q. But the interpreters have interpreted the text for you.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. At the bottom, it says, "Commander, Major-General Dragomir

11 Milosevic." Do you agree with this, now that the interpreters have told

12 you that this is what it says?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We cannot see what

15 Mr. Tapuskovic is saying.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. , And now hear it says, in the left-hand side corner that, "The

18 commander, Lieutenant general, or rather, Colonel-General Ratko Mladic is

19 confirming this decision."

20 A. I understand enough Cyrillic letters to see that that is what is

21 written in the upper left-hand corner, yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It says,"I approve

23 this decision..."

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let me ask you this: As you arrived in Sarajevo, and I will show

Page 2015

1 this to you after the break, you said that you dealt with the

2 confrontation lines between the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the army of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that you were to mark them off. Is this what you

4 were doing?

5 A. I don't understand what it means "mark them off."

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's time for the

7 break any way. I will try to specify my question after the break.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, because I don't understand it either, so

9 find another way to reflect what in English has been interpreted as "mark

10 them off."

11 We'll take the break for 20 minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We were waiting on the technician from the

15 audiovisual booth but I decided not to wait any longer, since the

16 20-minute break it expired.

17 I just wanted to very briefly give two decisions. One relates to

18 two motions filed on the 23rd and 24th of January by the Prosecution for

19 admission into evidence of three written statements: W 19, W 28, and W

20 136. The Defence doesn't challenge the admissibility of the statements

21 under Rule 92 ter, but it objects to the statements stating that it does

22 not have time to cross-examine the witness.

23 The Trial Chamber will allocate reasonable time for

24 cross-examination based on, among other factors, the length of the

25 examination-in-chief, the length of the 92 ter statement, and it's

Page 2016

1 significance of the witness' testimony. The Trial Chamber, therefore,

2 grants the Prosecution's motion and admits the statements of Witness 19,

3 28, and 36 into evidence upon fulfilment of the request.

4 Next I wanted to refer to the Prosecution motion filed on the 5th

5 of February, 2007, pursuant to 92 ter. And this concerns the witness John

6 Jordan who is due to testify on Monday, the 19th of February. The Defence

7 response is due on the 19th of February, 2007 and the Trial Chamber would

8 like to find out from the Defence whether it will be in a position to

9 respond by Thursday, the 15th of February to this motion. Let us know

10 what your position is.

11 In that event, we will then issue our decision on Friday, the

12 16th.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's a witness who

14 will be taken by my colleague, so she will respond on behalf of the

15 Defence and explain the problems involved.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. I am not getting any interpretation.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologizes, but the microphone

19 was not on.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please, start again.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. So we're taking

22 into account the decision that you just made. Now, regarding John

23 Jordan's testimony, according to Article -- Rule 92 ter, the Defence has

24 no objection towards that at all. Everything is fine for us.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

Page 2017

1 Let us then proceed with the cross-examination of this witness.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

3 managed to regroup during the break and to organise myself, selecting only

4 the most essential matters for cross-examination.

5 Q. First of all, I would like to ask the witness this: I have taken

6 all material that I received from the OTP concerning this witness,

7 including two maps, in fact, two aerial maps. I believe that the

8 Prosecution has them in various formats, but this format can hardly be

9 placed in e-court; and before I ask the witness anything concerning these

10 maps, I would like them distributed to the Trial Chamber so that you can

11 follow. These maps are part of the material that I received for this

12 witness.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: I have the copies, Mr. President.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Knustad, you know very well what these maps depict. Did you

16 take these photographs from an air plane, from a helicopter? Can you

17 explain this to the Trial Chamber?

18 A. Well, it's not me who has provided those images, so I can't answer

19 that.

20 Q. Well, but in addition to these photographs, did you see other

21 photographs that cover a larger area, not only the centre of Sarajevo. On

22 this image, we do not see anything outside this narrow area of Sarajevo.

23 Do you know if you have made other images that include a broader area of

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. I have no other images. But the maps that we used as military

Page 2018

1 observers were in the scale 1:50.000, and it covered as well areas outside

2 of the city of Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question was: "Do you know if you have made

4 other images, that include a broader area of Sarajevo."

5 THE WITNESS: I personally haven't made any images, no.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have to ask

7 the Prosecutor to clarify this. Do they have any maps that show a broader

8 area? If they do, I believe it was their obligation to disclose to me all

9 of them, not only the centre of Sarajevo. I'm taking the liberty to ask

10 you, Your Honours, to clarify this with the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have any maps which show a broader area of

12 Sarajevo.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, indeed, we did and I handed over to

14 counsel -- I recall about two or three days ago. In other words, this is

15 a large-scale map -- it's a large inset of a full map of Sarajevo, which I

16 I gave to counsel in a A3 format. I had intended to use this with the

17 witness; but in the interests of efficiency, I did not. But counsel -- I

18 gave him three or four more copies of this --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's move on. Mr. Tapuskovic, they have

20 been handed to you.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I'm

22 asking. I want them to show you that map as well, because this one shows

23 a very narrow area. Can they also show the small map of Sarajevo that

24 they had given me? I am certain that they have a copy in a large format

25 of that small map. Could they show the small map to the witness, so that

Page 2019

1 I can ask him questions of it?

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is it exactly that you want?

4 Because I'm not clear and my colleagues are not clear either.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, never mind. There will be

6 other opportunities, Your Honour.

7 We can use the small map, but it is in a very small format and

8 it's very difficult to things on it. Those are aerial photographs. If

9 this were an A3 format, it would be much easier to examine the witness on

10 it.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have the small map in a larger format,

12 Mr. Prosecutor?

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, actually, what counsel is holding up

14 is, in fact, the complete map of Sarajevo, from which this inset has been

15 taken. And counsel asked for that and I provided it to him. So I didn't

16 use it in my examination-in-chief. If counsel wants to use it in

17 cross-examination, then maybe counsel should have made copies for that;

18 but If not, I can do that.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on, please.

20 He has given you his all.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have to clarify this with

22 the Trial Chamber in writing in order not to take up much more time on

23 this problem, but I will have to explain this in writing, once we have

24 finished hearing this witness, of course.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's move on.

Page 2020

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Knustad, you had this training in Zagreb that you referred to,

5 and, anyway, it's your profession. Can you tell us about the shell of

6 120-millimetres? What does it weigh? I asked many experts, mainly

7 generals, and my information is it weighs two and a half kilos. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. No, that is not correct at all. It's far more than two and a half

10 kilos. You would have to specify whether you referring to a

11 120-millimetre mortar shell or a 120 millimetre artillery shell, but it's

12 the far more than two and a half kilos.

13 Q. I heard in my headphones "kilometres. "

14 A. I meant kilos for kilograms?

15 Q. So a mortar shell of 120-millimetres weighs how much.

16 A. Well, I would only be able to give an estimate, but a mortar shell

17 of 120-millimetre would be somewhere between 20 or 30 kilos.

18 Q. Did I hear you correctly, 20, 30 kilos? That's the interpretation

19 I got.

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Are you aware that such shells, if they weigh as much as you say

22 they weigh, must be picked up by radars, at least high-quality radars?

23 State of the art radars pick them up after they take off. Already ten

24 metres above the ground, radars pick up everything in the area. Are you

25 aware of that?

Page 2021

1 A. In general, as an officer, I know that there are equipment that

2 are able to -- to track artillery grenades during the flight, yes.

3 Q. Anything that is ten metres and over above the ground, above

4 surface?

5 A. I don't know the specifics of those radars because that is not

6 within the -- my area of competence, and we were certainly not dealing in

7 that during my service in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Do you know that British units as well as Dutch units and some

9 other country's units had very high quality radars at the time of the

10 tragic event at Markale on the 28th of August. Are you aware of that as a

11 member of the team which investigated this?

12 A. I'm aware that British forces --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Sachdeva is on his feet.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just a small point for

15 clarification. The witness has not said that he was a member of the team

16 that investigated this, in other words, the 28th of August incident.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you for that clarification.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think he did say that. I'm not

19 going to pinpoint him on any of his words, but I think he said he was a

20 member of that team.

21 Q. Is that correct or not?

22 A. It's correct that I was a member of the military observer team

23 that conducted the investigation on the 28th of August on the

24 market-place. My position was on the OP1.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that clarification.

Page 2022

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, is it the case that it's almost impossible, in view of

3 the equipment positioned in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo, that the sound

4 of any projectile not be picked up? Do you know that?

5 A. No. I have heard so many mortar and artillery rounds firing

6 during my career, so I would have heard if there was any outgoing round

7 from the area within my observation post, referring to the incident on the

8 28th of August.

9 Q. I asked you something else. There were devices to monitor the

10 sounds of incoming and outcoming projectiles. Not a single sound

11 monitoring instrument registered that projectile, that shell as it was

12 coming in. Are you aware of that?

13 A. I was a military observer. I didn't have access to any other

14 devices other than my eye, my ears, and my binoculars, so I can't comment

15 on any other kind of equipment.

16 Q. But if you participated in this work by observing everything that

17 happened on that tragic day, did you come across this piece of

18 information; namely, that not a single instrument picked up the sound of

19 that shell as it was coming in?

20 A. I was not aware of that information, no.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask the

22 Registrar to show DD0-05-10 [as interpreted]; namely, the statement of

23 Mr. Knustad dated 21st of May, 1996 [as interpreted], to show it on the

24 screens. I want to confront the witness with some of the passages from

25 his statement of the 21st of May, 1999 [as interpreted]. DD00-0510.

Page 2023


2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. May I ask the witness to focus on the fourth paragraph on page 3

4 in English. It begins with the words: "On the morning of 28th August."

5 A. Yes, I can see that.

6 Q. I'm not going to read it all. But just one sentence in the middle

7 of that paragraph: "Then I heard the sound of an impact explosion

8 somewhere in the city; and from my experience, my first thoughts were that

9 it sounded like a mortar impact."

10 Is that correct? Is that correctly reflected?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. In the next paragraph, you say: "I heard only one impact, and I

13 know that the mortar had not passed close to our position because I would

14 have heard it. I can also say that if the mortar had been fired from

15 within the confrontation line, I would have heard that, too. All the area

16 surrounding the confrontation line was controlled by Serbs."

17 Does that correctly reflect what you said?

18 A. Yes. It does and that reflects what is I said, that I didn't hear

19 any outgoing mortar rounds from within the confrontation line.

20 Q. And, finally, the reason I'm asking all this is the last

21 paragraph: "Paul and I filled out the UNMO incident which explained fully

22 what we had observed. We then reported the same incident by radio to the

23 duty officer at the military observers headquarters for Sector Sarajevo.

24 That was the end of my involvement with that particular incident, as I was

25 not called upon to investigate the site of the impact."

Page 2024

1 Is that correct, that you had no longer any involvement in that

2 investigation, as I understand from this?

3 A. Well, this refers to the actual incident that occurred on that

4 day. And the whole meaning about the last sentence is that I was not

5 called to go down from the OP1 to the impact site and contribute in the --

6 in the investigation on the site.

7 Q. Witness, sir, we can, therefore, conclude that you saw the shell

8 impact and that you didn't know anything else and you reported to the

9 headquarters accordingly. You only saw the smoke and the shell impact; is

10 that right?

11 A. That's correct, and that's what I have stated earlier. I saw the

12 smokestack, I heard the sound of the impact, and I was able to confirm

13 which area that impact was. And we reported that according to the

14 procedures to our UNMO headquarters and as well logged it as -- as I

15 stated in -- in this report.

16 Q. Thank you. In order for us not to go back to the statement again,

17 I would like to call up page 2 of your statement to our screens; namely,

18 of your statement.

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I see that.

21 Q. There you speak of Sedrenik, and you say exactly what you told us

22 today.

23 You said that one can see the entire town clearly from Sedrenik;

24 the centre of town and everything there, because the vantage point is on

25 the hill.

Page 2025

1 A. No, I did not say that. I said that referring to the OP1 and not

2 about the team base we had in Sedrenik, and Sedrenik is on the total

3 opposite side, to the northern side of the old part of the city. The OP1,

4 that I was referring to regarding the good visibility, is on the southern

5 part of the old part of the city.

6 Q. Yes, my mistake. But from that vantage point, one can clearly see

7 downtown Sarajevo and all the different points can easily be controlled

8 this way; is that right?

9 A. Are you referring to the team base in Sedrenik or the OP in Colina

10 Kapa?

11 Q. I'm asking about Colina Kapa, not the place that you were at that

12 you drew on the map a moment ago.

13 A. Well, what I drew on the map was Colina Kapa and the observation

14 point. I think that's quite clear on the -- the map. It shows Colina

15 Kapa, and there is nothing mentioned there about Sedrenik. I do not

16 understand the question.

17 Q. It seems that I was mistaken myself, but let's talk about Colina

18 Kapa. It's some 940 metres high; is that right?

19 A. Yes. And the city of Sarajevo is approximately only 600 metres

20 above sea level.

21 Q. And Colina Kapa lies at 940 metres above sea level.

22 A. That's correct. That's on the top of Colina Kapa; but as I have

23 stated, the OP itself was a bit further north from the top of Colina Kapa,

24 down on the -- on the slope towards the city.

25 Q. Can it be said that Colina Kapa, which is part of Trebevic and is

Page 2026

1 940 metres high, was under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. That's correct. That was under control of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 army, as I stated, and we had the front line of the Bosnian army

4 approximately 150 to 200 metres south of us.

5 Q. And from that vantage point, you have Sarajevo as if it were on

6 the palm of your hand, as we say in our language, and many witnesses

7 testified to that effect here.

8 A. That's correct. It's a magnificent view especially of the old

9 part of the city from that observation point. And from a military

10 perspective, of course, there was no coincidence that the UN observation

11 point was placed exactly there.

12 Q. Nonetheless, it is at a somewhat lower level to that where the

13 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had its positions?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you. I wish to direct you to paragraph 5 now, and that's

16 the reason why I called up this map. You say that Kevin Curtis from ICTY

17 has shown you a map of the Sarajevo area in two parts, and now I'm

18 quoting. "On those maps, I have drawn, to the best my recollection, in

19 green ink, the confrontation line as it was then."

20 Can you tell us which confrontation line did you, indeed, draw as

21 you arrived Sarajevo toward the end of the war? Can you show the line to

22 us on this map here? Which were those lines?

23 A. Well, they are confrontation line that we had on our maps that we

24 used during our duty as military observers. It showed the middle of the

25 confrontation line between the Bosnian army and the Serb army. As -- as

Page 2027

1 stated, there is a no man's land in between, and we would, for our

2 knowledge, draw the confrontation line as the middle of the no man's land.

3 Q. Can you please show us the line on the map here? Just indicate

4 it, please.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Where was Colina Kapa? Can you show it to us. It was within the

7 area of responsibility? What does the blue line stand for?

8 A. Well, I assume that blue line is the army of ABiH-held territory

9 and -- on the outskirts of that one. So to my understanding, this blue

10 dotted line shows the front line of the army of BiH, and the red dotted

11 line shows the front line of the Republika Srpska army.

12 Q. Can you, at least, roughly show us the place where you were

13 stationed, Colina Kapa.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just so I can easily follow, could

17 the camera be focussed on the map while the witness is pointing to it,

18 because it's difficult for me here to look at it.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the camera be focussed so that we can all see

20 it.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You said that Colina Kapa was within the area of the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If indeed it was within the area of control of the

24 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then it should be behind that blue line there.

25 Is that right?

Page 2028

1 A. I can't validate the correctness of this map, and I don't know

2 when it's dated because the confrontation line, it changed. But I knew

3 understand that the end station of the cable car going up to Colina Kapa

4 was Bosnian Serb-held territory, and that's just to the east of our

5 position on Colina Kapa.

6 Q. Witness, mountains are never small affairs. I asked you about the

7 top of Colina Kapa a moment ago, and you said that the tip of Colina Kapa

8 was indeed within the area controlled by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Is that right?

10 A. Yeah. The knowledge that I had was that the Bosnian government

11 army was at the top of Colina Kapa and that Bosnian Serb army was further

12 south than that. Yeah.

13 Q. Very well. Since you arrived in Sarajevo only in the month of

14 June, you perhaps cannot tell you [as interpreted] that, but do you know

15 of any other confrontation lines between the two armies in addition to

16 this one. Could you tell us what these blue and red lines stand for? Did

17 you learn this information during your time there?

18 A. I certainly know what blue and red lines indicate on this map, and

19 I just explained that in previous answer. On our maps in -- that we used

20 as military observers, we had one line, indicating the middle between the

21 two front lines.

22 Q. Do the blue lines represent the positions of the army of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina and the red lines those of the army of Republika Srpska?

24 A. That is correct, as I see it on this map, yes.

25 Q. A moment ago, you extensively spoke of aerial bombs. There is no

Page 2029

1 need to repeat your words. Firstly, I'm interested in the following:

2 You said that they are quite slow. Would -- were they so slow that the

3 people seeing the bomb arriving would have enough time to take shelter, a

4 minute or two later, before the impact that took place a minute or two

5 later?

6 A. No. That would hardly be possible. You would be able to see it

7 if you were on a close distance and you saw it fired and then you would

8 see it pass by in front of you on the distance, let's say, up to a few

9 hundred metres, between 4 and 700 metres.

10 Q. If a bomb came from the positions of the army of Republika Srpska,

11 which were some two to three kilometres away, then they were quite visible

12 as they were quite noisy and flying quite slow. People would have enough

13 time to take shelter, yes or no?

14 A. No, they wouldn't. And I have seen myself one of these weapons

15 fired from Sharpstone. I saw it being prepared. My position was at the

16 team based in Sedrenik. I saw it being prepared on Sharpstone and fired

17 towards the centre of the city.

18 Q. Therefore, you do not allow for the possibility that the bomb

19 could have been fired by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in view of the

20 confrontation lines as you drew them. You do not allow for this

21 possibility?

22 A. Are we now talking about the aerial bombs from Sharpstone, or are

23 we talking about anything fired from within the vicinity of OP1?

24 Q. My question is: As you are quite familiar with these aerial

25 bombs and you observed them, do you exclude the possibility that this

Page 2030

1 aerial bomb was, in fact, launched from the Sharpstone where the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina was stationed?

3 A. Yes. I conclude that completely since I witnessed this with my

4 own eyes, and it was very easy to know actually where the confrontation

5 lines were in the Sharpstone area. And we had very good control of the

6 Bosnian Serb sniper position on the Sharpstone, and we knew it was Bosnian

7 Serb territory since they always made sure that the Bosnian Serb flag was

8 on the top.

9 Q. Are you aware of the following: This is a document that I will

10 be showing to someone else, but it is authored by UNPROFOR, wherein,

11 UNPROFOR had insisted on the setting up of an observation post on

12 Sharpstone and that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina continuously refused to

13 allow that. Are you aware of this?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of that at all.

15 Q. You are categorical in claiming that the army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina never, ever fired one such bomb during your time there?

17 A. Well, I'm not categorical. I'm just referring to what I observed

18 and what we reported, and I have stated that I did not see any mortars or

19 any other weapons fired from the Bosnian government forces within the

20 confrontation line. Besides that, we were very well aware of the fact

21 that government army did not have very much heavy weapons at all.

22 Q. And you state that categorically?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask that DD00-0510 be

Page 2031

1 admitted into evidence.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D57, Your Honours.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the UNPROFOR

5 document that I referred to but did not quote from, I will need to show

6 the entire document to Mr. Knustad. That is DD00-0463, which is listed

7 as, or rather, as admitted as D31. This is a report by the UNMO

8 headquarters for Sector Sarajevo concerning the events taking place on the

9 28th of June, 1995, and the TV building related events in Sarajevo. This

10 is just one document in addition to two others that I will be using. Can

11 I ...

12 THE REGISTRAR: The document I have listed as DD00-0463 is -- is

13 not listed as D31. What I have list as D31 is a different document. Can

14 counsel clarify, please?

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I want to call DD00-0463 then,

17 because it is in e-court. I think it's been admitted.

18 Q. Witness, do you see the document? I would like to show it to you

19 in its entirety. It was sent by UNMO headquarters, Sector Sarajevo. You

20 see the date there 1995, prepared by Captain T. Hansen, operations

21 officer, and release by Lieutenant-Colonel Alan, a deputy officer. Is

22 that right? Deputy commander; is that right.

23 A. That's correct. That's correct. Deputy commander of the military

24 observers. That is something else other than UNPROFOR.

25 Q. My apologies. I have never been a soldier, myself. I was even

Page 2032

1 relieved from duty.

2 To inform UNPROFOR in Zagreb. Subject, special report on impact

3 in TV building in June 1995.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I see that.

6 Q. Can you please give me yes or no answers, so we go through this

7 quickly. It goes on to say, "In June, an UNMO coming into the PTT

8 buildings parking his car on the lower parking place observed the

9 following."

10 Is this correctly reflected? Am I saying what is written here?

11 A. Yes, you are. I haven't seen this report before.

12 Q. Please answer with a yes or no. There is no need for to you give

13 any explanations.

14 Heard and saw an outgoing projectile across the parking place and

15 road, from grid such-and-such a number. The place is on the BiH

16 territory, approximately 1800 metres from the nearest confrontation line.

17 A. That's correct. That's what the report says.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction: Not confrontation

19 line but cease-fire line.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. The dust was seen and a low flying projectile heading towards the

22 TV building.

23 Yes or no?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The projectile was following a low trajectory, travelling directly

Page 2033

1 from firing point to target, and hit the TV building on the northern side

2 facing the British Cymbelline building; that is to say, equipment for

3 monitoring mortar fire. Is that right?

4 A. That's what the report says, yes.

5 Q. The projectile was a short one. The width was quite big, 20

6 centimetre or more. The length was approximately 60 centimetres or more.

7 Is that right? Is that the text you see there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There was no smoke observed whilst the low trajectory object was

10 in flight. The velocity speed was quite sluggish.

11 A. That's correct. That is what the report says.

12 Q. The explosion was a few seconds after the impact. It looked quite

13 heavy.

14 Yes?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, this is a report prepared by

17 somebody else. He is merely confirming what is in the report.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will finish quite soon, and I

19 wish to tender this into evidence. One other military observer saw some

20 other matters that completed the picture, but never mind.

21 This was described in the indictment, and we've had people

22 testifying here that this was this Krmaca bomb that hit the TV building.

23 Q. Having seen this, does the witness deny the fact that the army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina had these launchers that could have been used to fire

25 such a projectile such as an aerial bomb, or does he stand by his

Page 2034

1 categorical assertion even after seeing this report. This is my question

2 for him.

3 A. I can only confirm and state what I have seen and heard, and my

4 statement was that I never saw any rounds being fired with heavy weapons

5 from within the confrontation line.

6 Q. Did you see the one that arrived from Sharpstone for which you

7 categorically claimed that it was fired from the positions of the army of

8 Republika Srpska, whereas, both sides had their positions there? Do you

9 now still exclude the possibility that the projectile may have been fired

10 by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes. I exclude that because we were well aware of where the

12 confrontation lines were in the vicinity of Sharpstone. And, as I stated,

13 I saw it with my own eyes, and the Bosnian Serb army had the territory on

14 the top of the Sharpstone. The government army had the area below,

15 towards Grdonja, the hill just south-west of Sharpstone.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see on the screen

17 another two documents, and I will be through with this. DD00-0506.

18 That's a report on a telephone --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment, please, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, just so I

21 understand things better, this report that you just read and that had been

22 drafted by other witness. According to you, this report means that an air

23 bomb had been launched by the ABiH army from that building. Is that how

24 you understand this report?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You recall quite correctly that I

Page 2035

1 have shown this report to a protected witness, and on that occasion I

2 presented an assertion that this Trial Chamber will judge on, in due

3 course. It was indeed fired from a distance of several hundred metres

4 from the TV building, according to that document, but I'm not going to go

5 into the details now.

6 As for what happened at the TV building, I can even go as far as

7 to say that an explosive device had been set in that building that created

8 all the havoc we've seen. If that is what you are asking, I can even say

9 that the explosion that created so much damage without wounding anyone,

10 apart from the corpse of the man who died, God knows where. I do assert

11 that it was fired from several hundred metres of the target. It

12 ricocheted three times without exploding, so not that the explosive device

13 was set up within the building. It flew in and it was seen by none other

14 than a high ranking officer of the UNPROFOR.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So you would like the witness to

16 confirm what you have understood? It seems that that is the problem,

17 right?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. No, Your Honour. I'm

19 just saying that the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina used those large bombs

20 that we call "sows" in our language, that they were in possession of the

21 same kind of bombs and represented their own act as a misdeed of the army

22 of Republika Srpska. This witness is saying that the army of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina never fired a bomb of this kind. So I'm asking you if he

24 continues to believe that, after having seen this document.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just clarify this.

Page 2036

1 Is it your evidence that the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina never

2 fired an air bomb called a "sow," or is it your evidence that you never

3 witnessed such a firing by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My statement is that I never

5 witnessed it. I wouldn't be able to -- to confirm whether it was used, and

6 I did not witness it. So I am not categorically that it was never fired,

7 but I never witnessed it myself.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Did you ever hear any reports of such a

9 firing by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not hear of that either.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And my final question regarding

12 this. Maybe he did not hear about it before, but he is hearing about it

13 now. Does he allow the possibility that this sow bomb from Sharpstone

14 was fired by somebody other than the army of Republika Srpska. The Court

15 will, of course, deliberate on this.

16 Q. Do you, Witness, absolutely exclude the possibility that the army

17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina used projectiles of this kind?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the witness has already answered

20 this question, in as much as it relates to the general proposition that

21 ABiH fire these projectiles. I don't know whether the question relates

22 specifically to the incident at Sharpstone, which the witness has been

23 given about. Perhaps that could be clarified. But if it is the former,

24 then I submit that the witness has answered the question.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will allow the question.

Page 2037

1 What is your answer?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have stated, we were very well

3 aware of where the confrontation lines were in the Sharpstone area. We

4 knew that the Sharpstone, the top of the hill was Bosnian Serb-head army

5 territory, and I have stated that I saw modified air bomb being fired from

6 that position.

7 I only state what I observed and what I heard. I also stated that

8 I observed a Bosnian Serb flag on the top of the hill.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it is necessary to

10 carry on with this issue. The witness has said what he said, and it is

11 ultimately up to the Trial Chamber.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 Tell me, Mr. Sachdeva, the report which was just shown to the

15 witness and which is marked for identification, you know it's marked for

16 identification.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President, I'm aware of that.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: D31. Is it the intention of the Prosecution to

19 call the person who prepared that report, the army officer who prepared

20 that report?

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the person who prepared the report

22 is not currently on the Prosecution witness list.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I would imagine, then, that the Defence will

24 want to call that person. If neither side is calling the person who wrote

25 that report -- let me finish. If neither side is going to call that

Page 2038

1 person who wrote that report, then I will call that person as a witness of

2 the Court because we must hear from him.

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I just add that he was on the

4 Prosecution witness list. However, upon our review of the military

5 records in Banja Luka, wherein, we -- we identified the document that was

6 tendered through witness 138 a couple of weeks ago, a document of the

7 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and of, allegedly, the accused stating that his

8 troops had hit the TV building, it was decided that we would move with

9 that evidence.


11 Have you completed your cross-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did abbreviate a

13 lot, but I have a couple of matters outstanding, a couple of more

14 questions.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I understood correctly, this

17 document is D31, isn't it? I mean marked for identification.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I don't know what document you are

19 referring to, but D31 is marked for identification.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's correct. I have indictment

21 DD00-0463, marked for identification, is D31 on the 1st of February.

22 However, just a point of clarification. That is marked for

23 identification and not admitted into evidence.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I never received from the

25 Prosecution the information report regarding Mr. Knustad dated 2nd

Page 2039

1 October, 2003. It was marked DD00-0506. But since it is already on the

2 screen, I would like to examine the witness on the paragraph titled,

3 "impact."

4 Q. It reads: "Knustad was in the post with an Irish army officer,"

5 who is named. "They compared their observations and came to the conclusion

6 that the mortar round had impacted the area of Markale and that neither

7 had detected the sound of the round being fired within the area that they

8 could see and here."

9 Thus, neither Mr. Conway, the Irish officer, nor you heard the

10 sound; is that correct.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Is it also true that neither of you heard the sound of another

13 four or five shells and that neither of you noticed them or could see

14 their impact and their effect?

15 A. If we had heard or seen, observed, another impacts, we would have

16 reported it. In this case, we observed and heard one impact.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have document DD00-0506

18 also exhibited.


20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D58, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just to clarify, counsel appeared to

23 suggest that this information report had not been disclosed, when in fact

24 the English was disclosed on the 25th of May, 2006 and the B/C/S was

25 disclosed on the 6th of February, 2007, just for the record.

Page 2040

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is possible that I made that

3 mistake, but that's the document.

4 Actually, I don't understand what this is about.

5 May I proceed?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please proceed, yes.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

8 another exhibit that was admitted a long time ago, one of the most

9 important for Markale. DD00-0010. It's a report from the 28th of August

10 addressed by General Janvier to the competent representatives of the

11 command of the UN Peace Corps and to Secretary-General Annan himself.

12 Can we see the English page number 3? UNPROFOR, Sector Sarajevo.

13 Q. Could the witness please read this passage, so that my following

14 questions will not confuse him. Until the end of that first paragraph.

15 Have you read it?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. This is the report from the 28th, day one, and it says,

18 "Concerning mortar shells. Definition of firing positions for mortar

19 rounds is very difficult because it is impossible to determine the level

20 charge used to fire the projectiles."

21 Can you confirm that this indeed very difficult?

22 A. Yes, it is and that is as well in line with the -- my statement.

23 We can only indicate from which direction we evaluated that it was fired,

24 and it is difficult to say at what distance. But in this case, we -- I

25 have already stated that nothing was fired as we observed from within the

Page 2041

1 confrontation line and that sector that I drew on the map.

2 Q. You neither heard it nor saw it? I mean, you didn't hear or see

3 anything but what you described.

4 A. No. I have stated what I have saw and what I heard already, one

5 impact.

6 Q. I was waiting for the opportunity to ask you this. Below it says:

7 "For the most part, in Ilidza, Butmir, Dobrinja, the maximum

8 concentration of impacts was reported in the area of Debelo Brdo and

9 Grbavica. An exchange of shelling took place downtown in the afternoon of

10 28th August. Most of it from the BSA side and this shelling ended with

11 another five rockets towards downtown in the evening. One incident

12 involving the security of UN personnel was reported."

13 Now my question is: How come there is an exchange of mortar

14 fire? You are following the incoming and outcoming rounds and you follow

15 all that, but you did not register at all what happened that same morning?

16 A. Well, that I did not talk about anything what was registered that

17 morning, I don't understand. I already stated that fact, and I can only

18 state what I what I observed and what I heard. I -- I'm sorry. I don't

19 understand the question.

20 Q. How is it possible that all these shells are suddenly both heard

21 and seen and they produce very bad effects on both sides, whereas,

22 everything that transpired the same morning was neither seen nor heard.

23 My question is: Is it possible that explosions were set up in those five

24 locations and that you could only hear the sound of explosions, nothing

25 else? That's what I'm putting to you?

Page 2042

1 A. That would be a speculation from my side, so I can't answer that.

2 Q. One of the ranking officers of NATO, and I have to put it to you,

3 said that they have also wondered about the possibility of the BH army

4 abusing their own troops. I'm not talking conspiracy now, but that

5 possibility was also taken into account by one of the NATO ranking

6 officers. What could you say to that?

7 A. Well, with all respect to General Janvier, I can neither confirm

8 or not confirm that statement, because I keep very strictly to what I

9 recall that I have observed and what I have reported, and I want to stick

10 to that.

11 Q. I don't understand why you are mentioning General Janvier. Maybe

12 he referred to that possibility, too. But what I was referring to was a

13 witness we heard sometime ago here, Nicolai, who speculated that this

14 could have been done also by the BH army, to the detriment of their own

15 people?

16 A. What is the question?

17 Q. Have you heard about that idea, that possibility in the thinking

18 of your personnel.

19 A. I have already answered that question, but I can repeat it,

20 repeat it, if that's wanted, to be aware of the fact that there were

21 speculations about rounds being fired from the Bosnian government army

22 within the confrontation line. We were briefed about that, and we were

23 also on our meetings with the Bosnian government army confronted with that

24 fact. But I -- during my service in Sarajevo, I was never able to

25 determine or confirm that anything was fired within the confrontation line

Page 2043

1 by the Bosnian government army that impacted within the confrontation

2 line.

3 Q. Not even the snipers who fired on their own people? You didn't

4 hear about that either?

5 A. We heard speculations about that as well, so that's one more fact

6 that we were very aware of. And this goes again to the impartiality. We

7 had to report what we observed, but I never confirmed that there was any

8 fire from a sniper towards a target inside the confrontation line, and

9 fired by a Bosnian government soldier.

10 Q. And you never heard of official UNPROFOR reports on the matter?

11 A. No, I didn't either.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did have more

13 questions, but I will end here. Thank you very much.

14 Q. Thanks, Witness. This concludes my cross-examination.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just about this -- the

17 question of Mr. Tapuskovic concerning the line. I would like to call upon

18 your military experience. You said that you drew on this map which I'm

19 looking, and for the moment I'm keeping it with me. Unfortunately, it

20 can't be put on the -- on the ELMO. You drew the impact of the mortar

21 round on the market of Markale, and the direction whence it came from.

22 And you also showed where OP1 was, your post, OP1.

23 I'm asking you, indeed, because Mr. Tapuskovic tells you that on

24 the same day you heard a lot of other detonations and explosion, if I

25 understood correctly, that shell which arrived on the market you did not

Page 2044

1 hear it nor see it. Therefore, owing to the place where you were and

2 according to your experience, is it possible that this shell might have

3 gone through without being either seen or heard? Taking into account its

4 direction and the impact point, from a strictly military point of view, is

5 it possible, can it be envisaged or not?

6 A. I'm not quite sure I understand the question, if it was possible

7 to see it during the flight. But I can only refer to the fact that I

8 observed something that I identified as an explosion, a detonation from an

9 incoming round in the area of Markale. I saw it, and I heard the sound

10 from the impact. And besides that, of course, there was a lot of other

11 rounds coming in and impacting in the city during that day and other days.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. All

13 right.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any

15 questions. I just want to state the following: I myself did not make any

16 claims. I only referred to what was stated in the report addressed to

17 Kofi Annan that the shells detonated throughout the afternoon and that

18 there was an exchange of shells from both sides, and this is the document

19 that I wanted to use before the Trial Chamber.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. I think there is no problem.

21 All I wanted was to have some clarifications about the situation.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have two question for you; one relates to your

23 investigation of the Markale incident, and another question which relates

24 in more general terms to the confrontation line.

25 My first question is this: Did you apply your skills in crater

Page 2045

1 analysis to determine that the shell that hit the Markale market that day,

2 that noon on the 28th of August came from that direction 170 degrees,

3 plus/minus 5 degrees?

4 A. I was not on the impact site that day. Our team leader was the

5 one who actually did the crater analysis and it's investigation at the

6 point of impact, so my contribution to this what I observed from my

7 position in OP1.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. So you did not yourself

9 analyse the craters that landed in the area of Markale that day.

10 A. I did not, that's correct.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. That exhausted my first question.

12 My second question is then regarding the confrontation lines,

13 because we have heard during this trial so far a number of witnesses who

14 have testified about how the confrontation lines were visible. And my

15 question to you is exactly this: If you came to a confrontation line,

16 would you then be able to see it? Were there trenches dug or were there

17 soldiers or combatants posted all along the confrontation line, or how --

18 how was it possible to demarcate the confrontation lines with such a

19 degree of precision, as we see on this map and as we have seen on others?

20 A. Well, it varied actually on the different parts of the city. On

21 some areas, you could actually see what was the forward positions on the

22 both sides, while in other areas --

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry. How could you see that?

24 A. Well, for example, we could see, from OP1, Serb artillery

25 positions on the hill on the eastern-most part of the city. We observed

Page 2046

1 them every day with the binoculars from our observation post. I can't now

2 remember the name of that hill, but it's the eastern-most hill above the

3 valley of Vasin Han that is in eastern part of Sarajevo. So that was one

4 example.

5 In other parts, it was more unclear and the confrontation line was

6 closer between the -- the forces especially in the urban areas, like

7 Grbavica, for example. So it's very difficult to give a precise answer on

8 that. The only thing I can say is that it was different in different

9 parts of -- of the surrounded city.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: How close would the front lines be to each other.

11 That would depend on the map. It's still unclear to me how one would be

12 able to determine where exactly the front line was and the confrontation

13 lines.

14 A. Well, I can use Sharpstone as an example, since I know that area

15 very well and that was close to our team base. And in that area, it was

16 less than, well, say, 200 metres from the forward Bosnian government

17 soldier to the forward Serbian army soldier. And it was very clear.

18 While in other areas, they -- they were farther apart from each other.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Knustad, the map that we are looking at,

22 which is behind you and which I presume it will be tendered into evidence,

23 does it accurately reflect the confrontation lines?

24 A. Well, I can't state the accuracy of it, because on a lot of those

25 areas I haven't physically been myself when the confrontation line was

Page 2047

1 like to this. But to my best recall, it fits very well with the image

2 that I had of the confrontation line, especially surrounding Sarajevo at

3 the time that I was in the sector.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: For the most part, I observe that the line is

5 continuous and unbroken. Does that mean that there were troops throughout

6 the entirety of what is represented by those lines? Do you understand

7 what I mean?

8 A. Yes, I do understand. But I wouldn't be able to give an answer on

9 that, since I didn't go personally myself through all the trenches on both

10 sides.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I imagine we might hear more about that

12 from other witnesses.

13 Mr. Tapuskovic, without giving any evidence?

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I forgot to tender

15 this into evidence. Let me tell you this: When it comes to victim

16 witnesses, they will be the only ones with whom I will not be going

17 through the map. Mr. Knustad, of course, himself cannot speak to that

18 effect, because he only arrived Sarajevo in the month of June of 1995.

19 However, those who were on the front lines and also around Sarajevo

20 will -- and in Sarajevo will be able to talk to this map. I will be

21 presenting the map to every non-victim witness.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll admit the map into evidence. --

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: As we do this, can I ask Counsel Tapuskovic, does

24 the map have a date? When was this map or -- drawn, or rather, the lines

25 that are shown on the map, when were they drawn?

Page 2048

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another map,

2 a similar one, that I will be tendering quite soon dated the 7th of July

3 during the time of Galic. This map here is the map that dates from the

4 time when General Dragomir Milosevic took up his position, from the 10th

5 of August up until the end of the indictment period. And as you can see

6 here, it bears also it's approval of General Mladic.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it's large format colour military

9 map will be admitted as Exhibit D59.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. But I was wondering if we

12 could take the break at this moment, since it is time.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll take the break now.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva, re-examination.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, very briefly, Mr. President, thank you.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

19 Q. Mr. Knustad, I just wanted to ask you one question in

20 clarification to His Honour Judge Mindua's question to you a moment ago.

21 If a round had been fired from within the confrontation lines along the

22 flight path of the direction of fire that you indicated on the map, would

23 you have heard that?

24 A. Yes, I would have heard that.

25 Q. At that time on that date, did you hear a round being fired from

Page 2049

1 within the confrontation lines?

2 A. At that time, I did not hear a round being fired from within the

3 confrontation line.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: That's the re-examination, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Knustad. That concludes your

6 evidence. We thank you for giving it, and you may now leave.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the next witness is going to be

8 taken by Ms. Edgerton. May I please be excused?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Call the next witness.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, I thought my colleague had gone to get the

13 witness. That would be Mr. Agovic, Your Honours.

14 And Mr. Agovic is going to testify about a sniping incident dated

15 3rd of March, 1995; sniping incident 14, SN 14. And he's a 92 ter

16 witness.

17 MS. EDGERTON: And would it save any time, Mr. Registrar, if I

18 gave you the first ter number to deal with? That would be 2894.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.

Page 2050

1 And you may begin, Ms. Edgerton.

2 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

3 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please tell us your name for the record.

4 A. Azem Agovic.

5 Q. What is your present occupation, Mr. Agovic?

6 A. Architect.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now, if I could, I'd like to have PT

8 2894 on the screen for Mr. Agovic, a statement dated 21 November 1995.

9 Q. Mr. Agovic, could you have a look at the documents on the screen

10 in front of you and tell us whether you had an opportunity to review these

11 prior to your testifying here today?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With respect to the English document on the left-hand side of the

14 screen, do you recognise your signature on the document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you recall whether the document was read back to you in

17 your own language before signing it?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Could we then move to the next document, PT 2895.

20 That would be a statement dated 21 April 2006.

21 Q. Mr. Agovic, do you have an opportunity to review both of these

22 documents prior to testifying today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And with respect to the English one on the left-hand side of the

25 screen, do you recognise your signature?

Page 2051

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall whether this document was read back to you in your

3 own language before signing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. EDGERTON: If we could move to one further and final PT

7 number. That would be 00739 at page 10 of that document. Yes, if we

8 could move to page 10, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The page that is on the screen is our e-court page

10 10.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could scroll further and identify the

12 page number. Could you go to the preceding page, please. I think in the

13 interests of time, Your Honours, we're able to do without this document,

14 in fact, and we'll just move on.

15 Q. Mr. Agovic, omitting the document that is on the screen in front

16 of you and referring to your statements to representatives of the OTP in

17 1995 and 2006, do those two documents constitute an accurate record of

18 what happened to you on March 3rd, 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have any additions, deletions, or alterations to make to

21 the information contained in those documents?

22 A. No.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Could we then have 2894 and 2895 marked as

24 exhibits, please.


Page 2052

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter number 02894 will become

2 Exhibit P 210. 65 ter number 02895 will become Exhibit P 211.


4 Q. Now, I have only very few additional questions for you, Mr. Agovic

5 with respect to the information contained in those statements.

6 Do you recall what the weather was like on the day that you were

7 shot?

8 A. It was a sunny and clear day.

9 Q. As you rode on the tram, were you able to see or did you any

10 military activity at all in the area in which you were travelling?

11 A. On that day, just as one month before, there were no activities.

12 It was a peaceful day. You could hear the birds chirping.

13 Q. Now, in your statement, in particular your 1995 statement, you

14 indicated that the tram you were riding on was headed towards Bascarsija

15 and you were sitting facing the rear of the tram. Now, perhaps you could

16 tell us, as you were sitting, which area of Sarajevo lay to your left-hand

17 side?

18 A. To my left, there was the Grbavica neighbourhood. I was facing

19 Ilidza.

20 Q. And what colour of clothes were you wearing that day?

21 A. I was wearing this very jacket I'm wearing today, 12 years on.

22 MS. EDGERTON: That concludes the examination-in-chief, Your

23 Honours. I don't have any further questions.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 Cross-examination.

Page 2053

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] I'm the Defence counsel for Dragomir Milosevic.

4 I will try to clarify some matters with you with reference to your

5 statement.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, indeed, I'm ready

7 to cross-examine. However, I heard something that is quite new to me;

8 namely, that Mr. Agovic was wearing this very jacket on the day he was

9 hit. There is something I didn't know. Can he show us where the bullet

10 that wounded him entered his body and where it exited his body? Can he

11 with see that on his jacket? I'm sorry to have to ask this, but having

12 heard this just now I feel duty-bound do ask him that. I'm sure the

13 jacket must show traces of the bullet entering and exiting his body in the

14 hip area.

15 Q. Can the witness please show this for us?

16 A. Here you can see -- may I stand up? You can see where the bullet

17 entered and it exited here. Here you can see where the bullet entered and

18 passed through here and came out through here. If need be, I can also

19 show it on my person, where the bullet entered and where it exited.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wouldn't consider that to be necessary. We

21 have -- the witness has indicated where the bullet entered through his

22 jacket and his person.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Did not the police who were involved in the investigation take the

25 jacket as corpus delecti in order to present it before the courts seized

Page 2054

1 of the matter in Bosnia-Herzegovina or elsewhere. How do you explain the

2 fact that the police did not take the jacket? Did they take any

3 photographs at the time they were taking your statement? Did the police

4 any shots of your jacket at the time, and are there any photographs,

5 contemporaneous photographs indicating that you were hit?

6 A. The police did not take any photographs of either my jacket or me.

7 I was wounded and I was in intensive care. There was no opportunity for

8 them to carry out that on-site investigation.

9 Q. Well, I've -- I almost feel like not asking anything any further.

10 In fact, I will not put a single question to this witness. Thank you very

11 much.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's a matter for you decide.

14 Any re-examination?

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, the problem for

16 us Judges here is to establish the reality of the wound and the shot, as

17 well as the origin and therefore the perpetrator. So I admire how concise

18 you have been in putting all of this to us, but unfortunately, I don't

19 have if my colleagues have a medical report at hand regarding the wound

20 inflicted to this witness.

21 But for the moment, we have no elements to establish the wound and

22 the origin of the shot, the shot that happened while the witness was

23 sitting in the tram. I'm sure you wanted to save time and maybe that is

24 why the counsel for Defence has such a hard time with the

25 cross-examination.

Page 2055

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please allow Ms. Edgerton to speak.

3 MS. EDGERTON: If it would assist Your Honours in clarification of

4 the extent of the injuries that this witness suffered, we certainly do

5 have medical reports available. However, the witness made it clear in

6 both of his statements that the shot entered the left side of his hip and

7 passed through his body, as he was sitting with his left side facing

8 Grbavica. However, again, as -- if it clarifies the matter for Your

9 Honours, we're happy to provide the parties with the medical documentation

10 for this witness.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have the medical reports here,

13 Ms. Edgerton.

14 MS. EDGERTON: I would be able to make them available first thing

15 tomorrow morning, Your Honours.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe to help, we already had two

17 witnesses regarding this incident, so we have already tendered this

18 evidence, this report. The police report has already been tendered, and

19 the medical report is included in all of this.

20 MS. EDGERTON: I thank my colleague, Ms. Isailovic. That is

21 absolutely correct Your Honours. If it would assist Your Honours to

22 clarify matters, we could deal with this matter perhaps quite briefly

23 tomorrow and indicate the relevant documentation that has been introduced

24 to date. And at the same time, Your Honour, of course, I would refer to

25 the witness' statements which have now been tendered as exhibits and

Page 2056

1 admitted, in particular paragraphs which deal specifically with the points

2 of origin the fire, the points, landmarks he was passing in Sarajevo at

3 the time he was injured. But I think if --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you suggesting, then, that the witness be

5 brought back tomorrow.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, he would be here in any case because

7 he would not able to travel until tomorrow afternoon. We're in afternoon

8 Court tomorrow, and I was thinking that he would be able to make the

9 afternoon flight tomorrow. I was thinking we were in morning court. I

10 would suggest, Your Honours, you could leave it with us, and I'll make the

11 documentation available to the party, my colleague, tomorrow morning. And

12 we may be able to deal with it quite expeditiously, and we will be able to

13 determine then whether the witness should be brought back.

14 Your Honours, I certainly have no further questions of this

15 witness, keeping in mind what has been put before this Chamber to date

16 about this incident and the origin of fire.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's the evidence that you would present?

18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Together with the medical records which may

19 assist His Honour Judge Mindua.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no intention

22 whatsoever to be calculating matters in any way. It was my learned

23 friend's right to ask of him only a couple of questions. I could have

24 been examining him for an hour. I have completed my cross-examination and

25 I will not have any further questions of this witness.

Page 2057

1 If the Trial Chamber will proceed pursuant to the rules of

2 Procedure and Evidence as you have been so far, I don't think there will

3 be any reason for to us be belabour the point. I had not be belabouring

4 it myself as I do not see any reason for it.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to dismiss the witness.

8 Mr. Agovic, your evidence is concluded. We thank you for giving

9 it and you may now leave.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness.

13 MR. WHITING: Next witness, Your Honours, is Mr. Bodgan Vidovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If this examination-in-chief also

17 takes three minutes, I will have to go home and bring the file because I

18 did not reckon --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have a procedure here 92 bis and 92 ter, and

20 its purpose is expeditiousness. In no case should a 92 bis or the 92 ter

21 witness take more than 20 minutes, 25 minutes, or half an hour at the most

22 in examination-in-chief. Are you not familiar with the practices here?

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may our case manager

25 leave the courtroom for a moment to go to the Defence room and bring

Page 2058

1 something?


3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Thank you.

4 MR. WHITING: If it is of assistance, my examination -- Is this is

5 not a 92 ter witness. My examination will take -- my guess it will take

6 us close if not beyond the end of day. I don't expect Mr. Tapuskovic to

7 have to start his cross-examination.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not inviting you to be overly long.

9 MR. WHITING: I am going to be as concise as I can, Your Honour. I

10 just need immediate a moment to log-in here.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

15 And you may begin, Mr. Whiting.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Good evening, sir. Could you please state your name for the

21 record.

22 A. Good evening. My name is Bodgan Vidovic.

23 MR. WHITING: If I could ask the assistance of the court officer.

24 If the ELMO could be lowered, it is blocking my view of the witness.

25 Thank you.

Page 2059

1 Q. Sir, when were you born?

2 A. 27th May, 1972.

3 Q. How are you presently employed?

4 A. I work in the MUP of the Sarajevo Canton, the Department of Crime

5 Scene Officers.

6 Q. When did you join the police?

7 A. December 1992.

8 Q. When you joined on that date, did it have the same name, or did

9 you join a different force with a different name?

10 A. At the time, it was called the Security Services Centre. Again,

11 it was the Criminal Forensics Department of the KDZ, that was the full

12 name.

13 Q. When you joined, what position did you have?

14 A. I worked as a scene of crime officer.

15 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber very briefly what your training

16 was.

17 A. Well, we had a six-month training that included basic training in

18 fingerprinting, criminal investigation of crime scenes, forensic

19 photography, sketching, lectures and courses in biology, chemistry

20 ballistics, and all of the other forensic skills.

21 Q. After that six-month training, did you receive any on-the-job

22 training while you were working?

23 A. Well, when we started actual downsite investigations, at first we

24 were accompanied by senior colleagues who shared their knowledge about the

25 skill of finding clues, traces, and anything that might be useful.

Page 2060

1 Q. After you started working, which would have been after the

2 training, and so I take it would have been in 1993; is that correct? When

3 you actually started working on the job?

4 A. Yes. It was in the end August 1993 when I first started working

5 as an as a scene of crime officer when I already had my diploma.

6 Q. Did you have occasion to investigate sniping and shelling

7 incidents?

8 A. Yes. At the beginning, when I just started working during the war

9 in Bosnia, I attended scenes of shelling and sniping incidents that were

10 common at the time.

11 Q. Did you continue to live and work in Sarajevo from -- during the

12 entire period from 1992 to 1995?

13 A. Yes. For the entire duration of the war, I was in Sarajevo

14 working on the same job, which I continued after the war, to date.

15 Q. When you went to a scene where a sniping or a shelling had

16 occurred, could you describe for the Trial Chamber briefly what were your

17 specific duties?

18 A. Well, my duties in a on-site investigation were to find traces; if

19 any; photographs; collecting clues and traces; bagging them; and taking

20 them for further forensic examination, if that was necessary.

21 Q. Did you right reports about your on-site investigations?

22 A. After each on-site investigation was performed, a report would be

23 written and a photographic file would be prepared, including a sketch of

24 the scene of the crime.

25 Q. In terms of sniping -- the degree or volume of sniping and

Page 2061

1 shelling, could you compare for us the period of 1992 until August of

2 1994, compare that period to the period August 1994 to November of 1995?

3 A. There was no great difference in the degree of shelling, although

4 perhaps the worst shelling was during 1995, especially the summer of that

5 year.

6 It's hard to say, really. It was bad throughout. But I believe

7 1995, the spring and summer of that year were the worst in terms of

8 shelling.

9 Q. What about sniping? Was sniping the same throughout or were there

10 periods - let me finish the question - or were their periods that were

11 worse than other periods?

12 A. Throughout that time, there was sniping incidents, but, again, the

13 end of spring and the summer of 1995 were the hardest for Sarajevo, in

14 terms of shelling and sniping.

15 Q. Where did you live in Sarajevo?

16 A. I lived and I still live in an apartment in the centre of

17 Sarajevo, Radiceva Street.

18 Q. In October of 1992, did you live with your father there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did something happen to him in October of 1992?

21 A. Yes. He was killed on the 6th of October, 1992 as a result of

22 shelling.

23 Q. Where was he when that happened?

24 A. Some 25 to 50 metres away from our flat.

25 Q. What was he doing at the time he was killed?

Page 2062

1 A. He was coming back from getting water from a water-tank parked

2 close to our apartment.

3 Q. How old was he when he was killed?

4 A. Fifty-six.

5 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately how many shells fell on your

6 street during the war?

7 A. Well, if we take only the area around my apartment building,

8 around 50 shells fell in the vicinity of that single location, maybe more.

9 That's as far as I was able to count.

10 Q. When you say during -- when you described those 50 shells, is that

11 during the entire period of the war from 1992 to 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was there any military facility or installation on your street or

14 near your street?

15 A. Well, from my workplace, the Security Services Centre was close to

16 my building, currently the MUP of the Sarajevo Canton.

17 Q. And were this period of times when there were members of the

18 police that were engaged in fighting, in military activity?

19 A. That was happening at the beginning of the war in 1992 until I

20 can't say exactly when it stopped, but I believe it was sometime in 1993,

21 in fact, until the establish am of the BH army as it existed later on in

22 the war. After that, they were withdrawn to their regular duties they

23 continued to perform until the end of the war.

24 Q. And after that occurred, that you say occurred in 1993, did shells

25 continue to fall on your street?

Page 2063

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was there any neighbourhood in Sarajevo

3 where sniping was more of a problem than other neighbourhoods?

4 A. Well, it's hard to single out a single neighbourhood, expect maybe

5 for the line from Marindvor, which was constantly under fire, and there is

6 a crossroads, an intersection about 100 or 150 metres from Marindvor which

7 was known in Sarajevo was the Hygienic Institute intersection, and that

8 whole line from Marindvor to that was under constant sniping fire.

9 Q. Do you know where this constant sniping fire was coming from?

10 A. It came from positions that, as I heard from others, were held by

11 the army of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Do you know where those were located?

13 A. Well, speaking of Marindvor, they were in a part of town called

14 Grbavica.

15 Q. Did you learn specifically any -- of any locations where snipers

16 were known to have be firing from, from Grbavica?

17 A. There was a building known as Metalka, and there were also

18 sky-scrapers from the top of which sniper fire came.

19 Q. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber how did you learn this

20 information? How did this information come to you about where the sniper

21 fire was coming from?

22 A. Mainly from eye-witnesses who were shot at from those buildings

23 and from my personal experience also, because one had to be very careful

24 passing through those areas. You could always hear shooting from that

25 direction, from the direction of those two -- of those buildings.

Page 2064

1 Q. This information, are you able to tell us if this is information

2 that was known only to the police, like yourselves, or was this

3 information that was commonly known?

4 A. No, that was commonly known. I don't think there's a single

5 resident of Sarajevo who would not be aware of those locations.

6 Q. Were there any measures that were taken to protect against

7 snipers?

8 A. Yes. Large metal containers were propped up at those

9 intersections that would allow people to have some cover when passing

10 through, because there was no other way to go from one part of the town to

11 another.

12 Q. These containers, did they face the Serb positions or the Bosnian

13 army positions?

14 A. They were at intersections providing cover to civilians passing

15 through and their other side faced Serb positions.

16 Q. Were they effective?

17 A. Well, sometimes they were; sometimes not. Sometimes a bullet

18 would go right through the container and hit somebody. Sometimes they

19 also shot over them and pedestrians were protected only to some extent.

20 Q. I want to ask you about your investigations of sniper cases. Are

21 you able to tell us, approximately, how many sniping cases you

22 investigating during the war? Is that something you're able to tell us?

23 A. Well, quite a few, but I couldn't give you an exact number now;

24 approximately, 20 cases which I worked on myself and maybe more, because

25 some of my colleagues did the same kind of work.

Page 2065

1 Q. And how many of those cases occurred after August of 1994,

2 approximately?

3 A. After August 1994, well, I really don't know the exact number. I

4 believe I did five on-site investigations, or maybe between five and ten,

5 but I'm not quite sure.

6 Q. During the period August 1994 to November of 1995, did you have

7 occasion to investigate shootings on trams, sniping shootings on trams?

8 A. Yes, I did such investigations as well.

9 Q. On those occasions, were you able to determine the direction of

10 fire?

11 A. Well, if the tram was on its rails when it was hit, then it was

12 possible to determine the direction of fire. If the tram was abandoned,

13 then based on eye-witness reports and the direction in which the tram had

14 been moving, we would try to establish the direction of fire. It turned

15 out to be mostly from the cemetery above Grbavica and from Grbavica

16 itself.

17 Q. Was the -- did you ever have occasion to investigate a sniping

18 incident where you determined that the direction of fire was from Bosnian

19 army forces?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Did you ever have occasion -- I'll put the same question about

22 shelling, even though I'm going to ask you some questions about shelling.

23 Did you ever have occasion where you investigating a shelling incident

24 where you determined that the direction of fire was from Bosnian army

25 forces?

Page 2066

1 A. No.

2 Q. Let's move to -- let's move to shelling incidents.

3 Are you able to estimate after -- from -- in the period of August

4 1994 to November of 1995 how many shelling incidents you investigated?

5 A. A lot. I could not even approximate the number. In one day --

6 there were days when we did six or seven on-site investigations of

7 shelling incidents.

8 Q. Was there a month, any particular month that had more shelling

9 investigations than any other that you recall?

10 A. Sorry. I think the summer of 1995 was the period of the greatest

11 number of shelling incidents.

12 Q. And is that when you would sometimes have days with six or seven

13 on-site investigations? Was that also in the summer of 1995?

14 A. Yes, yes. That's approximately in that period, although such

15 things could have happened even before.

16 Q. When you're talking about the summer of 1995, are you able to tell

17 us more specifically what months you're thinking of?

18 A. July and August.

19 Q. Now, regarding the shelling and the sniping incidents, can you

20 tell us -- and, again, stay focussed on this period of August of 1994

21 until November of 1995, can you tell us approximately what percentage of

22 them this casualties?

23 A. I could not really state a percentage, but there were many such

24 cases.

25 Q. Are you able to say whether it was most of the cases or some of

Page 2067

1 the cases, give us an idea?

2 A. I really can't -- let's say it was half, half.

3 Q. That's fine. To the best of your recollection, was there ever an

4 occasion when a casualty of a sniping incident or of a shelling incident

5 that you investigated was that of a uniformed soldier? Do you ever

6 remember that happening?

7 A. Well, maybe there were some casualties who were in uniform, but

8 whether they were civilians at that particular moment or soldiers, it's

9 hard to say. In most cases, though, the casualties were civilians, or

10 maybe the person just happened to wearing a uniform at the time when they

11 were in the street. At the time, there was a deficit of everything and

12 people were running short of clothing, and they put on anything that

13 could -- they could lay their hands on.

14 Q. When you say that "in most cases, though, the casualties were

15 civilians," does that -- are those most cases where -- in those most

16 cases, were the civilians wearing civilian clothes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you ever investigate a shelling of a military location?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did your team, your investigation team, ever come under fire while

21 you were conducting an investigation?

22 A. It happened several times, although for the most part there was

23 shooting, from everywhere, everywhere, all the time, and it was never

24 certain whether we would be able to conduct the investigation or not.

25 Q. Do you remember any specific occasions when you came under fire

Page 2068

1 during an investigation?

2 A. Yes. When a shell hit the Holiday Inn hotel and we went out onto

3 the roof of the so-called National Restaurant, that was part of the hotel,

4 to collect the evidence, and then a sniper started shooting at us.

5 Fortunately, no one was hurt.

6 Q. When did that occur?

7 A. It was, I think, in Autumn of 1994.

8 Q. My final question before we take the break for the evening. Were

9 you able to tell where the sniping was coming from?

10 A. Yes. We were fired at from Grbavica.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, I think it's a convenient time.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is.

14 We'll break until tomorrow afternoon, 2.15.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00

16 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th

17 day of February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.