1 Wednesday, 28 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue. Is the witness here?
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.
7 Before the witness comes in, I just have two -- three matters to
8 raise which will take four or five minutes.
9 The first relates to an application pursuant to Rule 73 to vary
10 the Prosecution's exhibit list. The witness who will be testifying this
11 afternoon, when I met her yesterday for proofing, brought with her some
12 DVD, two DVDs, with excerpts of news footage; one from German television
13 and one from the Bosnian television studios. I have disclosed them to
14 Defence yesterday and I have asked the Defence -- I have basically
15 explained to the Defence that I would use them in examination of the
16 witness, and I understand they have no objection to that. But officially
17 I have to seek your leave to vary the exhibit list, put them on the
18 exhibit list.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it's more than officially; you have to
20 show good cause. But we'll consider it.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we grant it. We grant the application.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 The second issue relates to Witness 66, who is testifying
25 tomorrow, and it's essentially a minor application pursuant to Rule 75;
1 that is, when I ask him about his current employment, he would ask that
2 that be done in private session; in other words, just one question,
3 because his current employment involves travel to Republika Srpska, and
4 for that one question he ask that be done in private session. Again, I
5 mentioned this to Defence counsel and they have no objection to that.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We grant that.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: And the third minor matter is with respect to
8 Exhibit P00256. I understand that there was a MFI -- actually, it hasn't
9 been admitted because there was a translation pending. I have been
10 informed that a translation is now available and therefore I seek to move
11 that MFI into evidence, as an exhibit, with your leave.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Have we seen the translation?
13 It's P00256. Yes, we admit it.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And your turn now, Mr. Waespi, with the witness
16 to continue his examination-in-chief.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. In fact, it's a new
18 witness; it's W-50. Pursuant to your oral ruling of yesterday, the person
19 has image distortion and also a pseudonym.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness be brought in.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS W-50
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you may begin, Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Examination by Mr. Waespi:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. Do you feel okay?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. WAESPI: If the witness can be shown a piece of paper with her
13 name on it.
14 Q. Witness, can you confirm that this is your name on this piece of
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 MR. WAESPI: If that could be tendered under seal, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P289, under seal, Your Honours.
20 MR. WAESPI: If the exhibit -- ter number 02988 could be prepared,
21 please, to be shown on the screen.
22 Q. Now, Witness, I will be referring to a witness number this
23 afternoon. I will not mention your name, but I will be referring to you
24 as Witness W-50.
25 A. I understand.
1 Q. Now, if you look at this screen - and that should not be
2 broadcast, please - do you remember that you gave a witness statement to
3 investigators of the Tribunal on the 16th of November, 1995?
4 A. The 16th? Yes, I do remember that.
5 Q. And do you remember that I showed you this statement yesterday in
6 my office?
7 A. I remember that, too.
8 Q. And do you remember that you told me you would like to make two
9 corrections in this statement?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. And the first correction relates to the second page - I think that
12 is the only page, substantive page, in this statement - and it's the
13 second line of the second page, and it says: "I am from Foca originally."
14 Can you tell Their Honours where you were from originally?
15 A. Originally, I'm from Masline, a village that is part of Foca
17 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Witness.
18 The second clarification relates to a sentence in the third
19 paragraph, and I'll quote the English version: (redacted)
22 What is the comment or correction or clarification you would like
23 to make in relation to this sentence?
24 A. There is one thing I'd like to clarify. I'm not sure about this,
25 whether it came from the left side or the right side, east or west. One
1 thing I do know for certain is that the shot came from Zecija Glava, from
2 that direction.
3 Q. And I think you will be able to show us on a photo where -- the
4 direction the shots were fired from was, in your opinion.
5 A. I hope that I will be able to help you, yes.
6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Now, with these two corrections or
7 clarifications, is this witness statement a true and accurate record of
8 what had happened on that day, as far as you recall?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And if you were to answer the same questions today, would these
11 answers be the same as recorded in your statement of November 1995?
12 A. Indeed, they would.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
14 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this statement could be tendered.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P290, Your Honours.
17 MR. WAESPI:
20 A. (redacted)
21 Q. And do you remember the weather on that day?
22 A. No, not really. It was a long time ago.
23 Q. Now, what were you doing on that morning, on that day? (redacted)
4 Q. And did you carry canisters with you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how did you carry the canisters?
7 A. We used a length of rope.
8 Q. And did you carry the canisters in your hands or over your
9 shoulders or somewhere else?
10 A. My shoulders.
11 Q. Were your hands free or did you hold something else in your hands?
12 A. My hands were free.
15 Q. And how was she hit?
16 A. Because the bullet had come from Zecija Glava, she was hit in her
17 left arm.
18 Q. What did you do after she was hit?
19 A. I called her to come behind a holiday cottage that was there, and
20 I administered first aid to her right there.
21 Q. And what were her injuries?
22 A. Serious ones. She was bleeding profusely and I helped as much as
23 I could, on the spot.
24 Q. And on which body parts were her injuries?
25 A. On her arm, the fist specifically.
1 Q. Do you know which arm it was, left or right?
2 A. The left one.
3 Q. And was there only one shot or were there several shots?
4 A. There were two shots at the time, the time she was wounded.
5 Q. And at whom were these shots directed to, if you can tell us?
10 A. No, none.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. WAESPI: If a video could be played. This is ter number
13 02717. And the last exhibit should also be tendered under seal because
14 the statement carries the witness's name.
15 It should be played in private session, though, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
17 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, could you please ask the witness
17 to show again which fist was hit, because it looked to me on the video
18 clip as if she was pointing to her right hand and I think she just said it
19 was her left hand. So which was it?
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
24 A. It was the left hand, the fist. What I showed in that video clip
25 was me trying to show which way she was facing when the bullet hit her,
1 and that's why I used that hand. So I tried to use my own hand -- my
2 right hand when I was showing that, but as a matter of fact the wound that
3 she received was to her left fist.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness, and thank you, Your Honours.
5 I would like to show you two or three photos taken from that
6 video, and we'll start with --
7 MR. WAESPI: First of all, I would like to tender this video under
8 seal, please.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As P291, under seal, Your Honours.
11 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could be shown ter number 02993.
12 Q. Do you see a photo on your screen, Witness?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us the direction of the house where you were
15 departing that morning? And perhaps you could mark it with the help of
16 the usher.
17 A. Yes. I don't understand your question. Can you repeat it,
19 Q. Yes. Can we see the house you were leaving?
20 A. Yes. Behind this house, the one behind this one. You can't
21 actually see it.
22 Q. Thank you for the marking. Can you attach a letter to your mark,
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. So that morning, you were using that path to come down
1 to the bigger road; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, the path.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness.
4 MR. WAESPI: If we could move to the next picture; this is 02990.
5 And this exhibit, this photo, should be tendered.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P292, Your Honours.
8 MR. WAESPI:
9 Q. Do you see another photo on the screen, Witness?
10 A. Yes.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. And please attach a letter A to it.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And can you indicate the direction you wanted to walk towards the
16 water point?
17 A. Sure. We were supposed to cross this road right here where she
18 was wounded.
19 Q. And would you go left or right? Would you go past the red car or
20 would you go to the right?
21 A. Where the police officer is standing, the red car. We were
22 supposed to walk past them and then continue in this same direction down
23 the road.
21 Q. Did you take her to a doctor or a hospital thereafter?
22 A. Yes. I first took her to see the nearest doctor who then helped
24 Q. And how far away was the nearest doctor?
25 A. It's difficult to say with any degree of precision, but it was
1 quite far away.
2 Q. And in relation to this house here, was it on the right side or on
3 the left side?
4 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. What exactly do you
6 Q. I apologise. You said you went to see the doctor and it was quite
7 far away. Into which direction did you have to walk from this point, to
8 the right side or to the left side?
9 A. To the left, this way.
10 Q. Yes. Can you indicate with a cross, perhaps, the direction you
11 were walking to?
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. Thank you. And if you could add the letter D to the cross,
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Thank you, Witness.
17 MR. WAESPI: If this photo could also be tendered as an exhibit,
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As P293, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, excuse me, before we
22 remove this picture from the screen.
23 Witness, you have told us that the shooting came from the
24 direction you indicated with a C on the photograph; is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] My question is as follows: How did
2 you come to that conclusion? Is it because you heard the shot, or did you
3 hear the bullet whistle past, or is it because the police told you after
4 the incident, or the investigators, after the incident?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bullet came and we clearly heard
6 it flying.
7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You mean the whistle or the actual
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, I was referring to this
10 whizzing or whistle.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because when I was taking her
15 to the doctor from this weekend cottage, while we were walking together,
16 although I know nothing about weapons, there was firing. You could hear
17 the sound of weapons.
18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Judge Mindua.
20 Mr. President, I know I'm beyond the 15 minutes allotted for this
21 witness. With your leave, I would like to show just one document to this
22 witness. It will take no longer than two or three minutes.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
24 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 If we could show ter number 00894, an investigative file, to the
1 witness, please.
2 Q. Now, Witness, do you remember that I have shown you this document
3 in my office?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. And did you have a chance to go through it?
6 A. Yes, I had the chance.
7 Q. If we can go to page number 5, please.
8 MR. WAESPI: I think the page on the right side, the B/C/S is the
9 right, but the page on the left side should be two pages earlier. The
10 English translation should be two pages beforehand. No, it's the next
11 page. On the left side of -- yes, that's it, that's the corresponding
11 Page 2877 redacted.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: How many pages are we speaking about altogether?
14 MR. WAESPI: Seven pages, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P294, Your Honours.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President, and thanks for the
18 understanding of taking a little bit more time. I have no further
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, (redacted)
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you're being asked by the
10 interpreter to repeat the numbers of the different documents.
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So P294 and 65 ter 894.
12 I'm waiting for this document so as to orient my
14 Q. Are you good at reading maps? Are you able to orient yourself on
15 the Sarajevo street map, Witness? Can you hear me, Witness?
16 A. Can you please repeat.
17 Q. I need to organise myself and organise my cross-examination today,
18 so my question to you is as follows: Are you able to comment on a
19 Sarajevo street map with your neighbourhood, with your area on the street
20 plan? You know, these are tourist maps. Are you able to read that? Did
21 you think this is possible or not at all? Maybe we'll give it a try later
22 on, then.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
24 Put it to her and see what happens.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the same report as the one
1 we've just seen. Can we turn to page 10, please.
12 Q. Was this on the 11th of March, 1995? Was that the date when you
13 went to the police station?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 Q. Witness, can you read the signature that is on the left-hand side?
17 Q. That's what is written by hand. It's not typewritten. It's
18 written by hand with a pen; is that right?
19 A. Yes, but somebody else signed on her behalf because she is
20 illiterate. And she maybe could have left her thumb print instead.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi is on his feet. Let's hear him.
24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, if we could make a redaction in the -- it's on
25 line 18 -- line 14 and 15, page 18, before it goes out, because that's
1 obviously a protected witness. Just to make sure that we don't broadcast
2 these statements. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be redacted.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think you got the answer you deserve.
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness - not Your Honour, but Witness - did you see the person
13 who signed?
14 A. No, I didn't really.
23 Q. Were other civilians there with you, notwithstanding policemen?
24 A. [No verbal response].
25 Q. Witness, I shall now ask you a number of questions concerning your
1 statement. You will remember that a few minutes ago you addressed a
2 number of matters with the Prosecution, a statement made on the 16th of
3 November, 1995. Do you remember this?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Witness, do you remember another statement, in other words,
6 another interview you had with the representatives from the OTP on the 4th
7 of October, 2002?
8 A. Well, in 2002? No, I don't remember that conversation.
9 Q. A few minutes ago you made two changes to your statement. The
10 second change or correction you made, do you remember that, or do we need
11 to see it on the screen again? Would you like us to display your
12 statement on the screen again, Witness?
13 A. If possible, I'd like to see it again.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page of the
15 statement on the screen, please. Let's move straight to the second page.
16 To avoid -- this cannot be broadcast. Fine.
17 Q. You made a second change, as you can see, and the second change
18 had to do with the direction of fire. Do you remember that? In your
19 statement it is said: (redacted)
22 Do you remember that?
23 A. I remember that, but the correction -- since I didn't know
24 anything, I wasn't a local there, and I was afraid, that's why I said it.
25 The only thing I know is that the bullet came precisely from Zecija Glava,
1 although I am not an expert in these matters.
2 Q. What I would like to check is the following: You mentioned that
3 the shot came from the west. Is that what you said on the 16th of
4 November, 1995?
5 A. Yes, that's what I said.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, at the time when you made your statement, did somebody
9 suggest to you that the shot came from the west?
10 A. No, nobody suggested that because no one was there.
11 Q. So why did you mention it?
12 A. I just said it because I didn't know anything.
13 Q. Why didn't you say that you didn't know?
14 A. I don't know. I was confused.
15 Q. And now, Witness, this is the truth: This is not where the shot
16 came from. It did not come from the west?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: I think this is unfair towards the witness. I think
19 she indicated clearly already in chief, and now again, that she is not
20 sure what east and west is, but she states unequivocally that it came from
21 Zecija Glava, whether that's east or west. I think that's adequately
22 explained by the witness.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see nothing unreasonable in the line of
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, are you sure, then, that it came from Zecija Glava; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes. I'm 100 per cent sure.
4 Q. Between Zecija Glava and the spot you have shown us on the
5 photograph and which we will see again, what distance was there between
6 these two locations?
7 A. Well, I didn't measure the distance. I'm not an expert in these
12 Q. When you say "the first line," what do you have in mind?
13 A. I'm referring to the Serbian positions, from which the bullet
14 came. That's what the first line is.
15 Q. And when you say talk about "the first line," what do you compare
16 it with?
17 A. I don't understand your question. What are you referring to?
18 Q. I would like to know whether there was another line held by the
19 ABiH army.
20 A. Well, there was the Serbian army and the army, holding the same
21 positions and fighting each other.
22 Q. What you have in mind are two armies that were pitched one against
23 the other in the city centre and in the area surrounding Sarajevo; is that
25 A. First, there was the Serbian army, holding the positions from
1 which the shot came. I meant that place specifically. I was not
2 referring to other places that you're asking me about.
3 Q. Did you know at the time where the ABiH army soldiers were?
4 A. No, I didn't know. I wasn't a soldier; I was simply a civilian.
5 And I didn't know where they were.
6 Q. How did you get to know that the soldiers of the Republika Srpska
7 were at Zecija Glava?
8 A. Well, I knew it. They were shooting every day, firing shells and
9 using other weapons.
10 Q. Were you sure that this was the army of the Republika Srpska at
11 the time?
12 A. I just told you that I was sure, and I tell you again that I'm
13 sure that it came from this direction.
14 Q. Witness, we are not discussing the direction this shot came from
15 for the time being. But at Zecija Glava, did you have an opportunity to
16 see soldiers from the Republika Srpska? That was the question I asked
18 A. No, I didn't. I couldn't see. I wasn't living there. I didn't
19 go to the lines. All I know was that the army of the Republika Srpska was
20 at these positions.
21 Q. Was this something which everybody spoke about?
22 A. I don't understand. Who do you mean?
23 Q. Witness, if you didn't see the soldiers, and if you knew that they
24 were there, my question is, how is it you knew this? What is your source
25 of information?
1 A. How was I to see it? I know that there was the Serbian army
2 surrounding Sarajevo. So how could I see? Was I to go there and see with
3 my own eyes? I knew that Sarajevo was surrounded by the Serbian army.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: In fact, the witness answered the question before.
6 She was asked, "Why do you know?" She said, "Because they were shooting
7 at us."
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 Please move on, Ms. Isailovic.
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Document DD00-0948, please.
11 Q. Witness, a while ago I asked you a question and I asked you
12 whether you remembered having had an interview with the Office of the
13 Prosecutor on the 4th of October, 2002. You answered by saying no. So
14 this is my question: After having given your statement to the OTP in
15 1995, which we addressed a few moments ago, do you remember having had an
16 interview with another person from the OTP? I think this was in
17 Sarajevo. Do you remember this? You were there with your mother.
18 A. Yes, that's right. I remember that.
19 Q. Unfortunately, we only have the English version on the screen, but
20 perhaps with the help of the interpreters, who can see this on the screen,
21 I'd like to turn to the second paragraph.
23 (redacted) You say -- perhaps I could read it out loud and
24 this could be interpreted.
25 "[In English] ... but states that the ABiH headquarters were some
1 300 metres away, but she did not see any soldiers nearby."
2 Do you remember this?
3 A. Yes, I remember that.
4 Q. When you say "headquarters," what do you have in mind?
5 A. For example, on our way back from the doctor, we had to take a
6 different road on our way back, and there was the BH army headquarters
7 there, but there was nobody around.
8 Q. Witness, how did you know that these were the headquarters if
9 there was nobody -- if there was nobody there? How were you able to guess
11 A. I was able to conclude that because the headquarters was right
12 there. But there were no soldiers to be seen. I passed the place on my
13 way back home from the doctor, and I knew the area. I knew the place and
14 I knew what was there.
15 Q. But what was there exactly that would indicate that this was a
16 headquarters of the ABiH army?
17 A. I don't understand. Can you repeat? Can you clarify?
18 Q. Yes, I will try. You stated a few minutes ago that there were
19 headquarters but there were no soldiers. So this is my question: How did
20 you guess that these were headquarters? What indication was there that
21 this would be the case? Were there weapons? Was there ammunition? Was
22 there a flag or something of that nature?
23 A. How could they possibly fly a flag there. It is was close to the
24 Serbian positions. (redacted)
25 (redacted) However, the road that we took on the way back was, indeed, a
1 place where there was a BH army headquarters, but there were no weapons
2 there. It was the civilians I had in mind who just held the place, but
3 there were no weapons. It was just something by the roadside.
4 Q. These soldiers who were headquartered there, were they perhaps
5 protecting the neighbourhood from the Serbs?
6 A. There were those who were protecting the neighbourhood from the
8 Q. Was there shooting?
9 A. How am I supposed to know? I wasn't a soldier. I was a
10 civilian. I wasn't interested in these things.
14 Q. Are you able to tell us, because you are not a member of the army,
15 are you able to tell us where the shot came from?
16 A. As I said a while ago, I answered your question a while ago,
17 didn't I? The shots came from Zecija Glava and followed us all the way to
18 the doctors, (redacted). And also on the way back, I
19 knew exactly where the shots were coming from.
20 Q. Witness, what is your neighbourhood called?
21 A. When we were wounded or now?
22 Q. The neighbourhood where you were living when this incident
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's another one to be redacted.
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
3 Q. Could you now tell us, Zecija Glava, is that a mountain?
4 A. Everything around Sarajevo is just hills and elevations. Yes,
6 Q. Does Zecija Glava belong to the same mountain -- to another
7 mountain range, somewhat higher?
8 A. I don't know what you mean. I can't answer that question. I
9 don't know about that.
19 Q. Are you saying that at the time you had just moved into that
20 neighbourhood and the incident occurred just a few days later,
22 A. How am I supposed to know the exact day? I don't remember
23 exactly. I can't say. I don't know how many days later.
24 Q. Witness, what would you say, would it be a matter of days, of
25 weeks, of months? So when you say it was a short while afterwards, when
1 was it?
2 A. I really don't know. I didn't keep track. I can't answer. I
3 don't know.
5 A. No.
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like my case manager to
7 display the photograph which we have just seen. It's a 65 ter document,
8 number 2990.
9 Q. Witness, it's the photograph we've just seen, which you should
10 have in front of you. Do you remember that at the beginning of your
11 testimony here we showed you a video; do you remember this?
12 A. What do you mean? A video? What video? Can you repeat that,
14 Q. When you walked into the courtroom, we started your testimony with
15 the examination of the Prosecution, and after a few moments you were shown
16 a video; do you remember this?
17 A. Video photograph? I remember that, the video photograph. If it's
18 the pictures that you mean. You mean the one that I'm looking at now?
19 Q. Perhaps we could, first of all, display the video and perhaps move
20 into private session.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we show this video again,
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 2891-2897 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you must bring your
7 cross-examination to a close now. You have spent for more than the time
8 allotted without seeking an extension. I indicated that times have been
9 allotted, and if you require an extension of the time, then you must seek
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, have I lost my right
12 to seek this extension? Could I have an extension of the time?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what do you -- how much time would you
15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] About ten minutes, to show the
16 witness the street map.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If the usher could -- we lost,
19 actually, the marking of the picture which is on the screen. Could the
20 witness mark the same spot as she did earlier on? And I suggest that we
21 record that then.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, could I have a
1 number for that picture.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: We admit that as D89, Your Honours.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I will ask my assistant to
5 display the 65 ter number 2872, which is the street map of Sarajevo.
6 I would like it tell the technicians that I have a problem with
7 this computer. I cannot follow the LiveNote.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the matter being attended to?
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. It will take a
10 while. No, sorry, the problem has been solved as far as LiveNote is
11 concerned. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Your next question, then.
13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, now you can see a street map of Sarajevo. Can you see
15 where you are on this map?
16 A. No, I cannot see.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, then, I would like to ask
18 the usher to zoom in a bit, especially the right-hand part, the upper
19 right-hand part.
20 Q. Can you now read the map, Witness?
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. I'll ask you, with the assistance of the usher, with the
23 electronic pen, (redacted).
24 A. I can only see Novo Sarajevo, Stari Grad, Alipasin Most. I can't
25 see it, I can't find it, because the lettering is too small.
1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit more.
2 We're talking about the right-hand part. This is the part I'm interested
3 in. Could you please zoom in and expand it a bit.
4 Q. Can you find your bearings now?
5 A. Yes, I can.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes. If we could make sure it's not broadcast again;
13 and also, if it's tendered, under seal.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll see to that.
15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Well, you can no longer change the map, but I would like to know
20 if you remember what was at the right-hand side of the map, which you
21 cannot see. But if you turn the map, is it Zecija Glava?
22 A. I cannot honestly tell that you because I cannot find it on the
24 Q. That will do.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have an exhibit
1 number for this marked map. That is the place where the witness lived,
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be D90.
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 A. Yes. I took her first to the place which was closest to the place
9 where she was wounded and where the nearest doctor was.
10 Q. Is this the same place you showed the Prosecutor earlier on? We
11 are talking about the same doctor, are we not?
12 A. I don't know about the doctor. I don't know his name. That was
13 the first time we went to see the doctor, and I really don't remember his
14 name because I didn't know him.
15 Q. Yes. But my question: We are talking about the same clinic, the
16 same place where you went the day she was wounded to get first aid. You
17 still went to the same place, did you not?
18 A. We went to another place. After she was wounded, we went down to
19 the road and we went to the doctor. On our way back, we took another road
20 and returned home.
21 Q. And then for the next ten days, you took the other way, the other
23 A. This other route between our house and the outpatient's clinic,
24 for her wounds to be dressed. We didn't take the same route that we had
25 taken previously when we went to fetch water.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a request for
3 Exhibit D90. I would like it to be under seal.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Witness, I wonder if you could help the
8 Chamber identify the place where you think the shots came from. Now, I
9 understand that you couldn't see it on the map, but is it possible that
10 you can tell us in which direction (redacted)
11 (redacted), where the area Zecija Glava is on the
12 map. Is it outside the map or is it --
13 A. I can show you on the photograph. I don't understand. Are you
14 talking about the address or the direction from which the shot came?
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm talking about the place from which you believe
16 the shots came. Can you indicate which direction from Skaljin Sokak that
17 place was?
18 A. I cannot. I cannot do that. No, I can't.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, any re-examination?
21 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence. We
23 thank you for giving it. You may now leave.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, Mr. Sachdeva, Mr. Waespi.
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Can I make a very brief comment in private
3 session, please.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
5 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Could you please state your full name, your place and date of
9 A. My name is Rialda Musaefendic. I was born in Belgrade on the 4th
10 of May, 1964.
11 Q. Is it correct that you're currently -- is it correct that your
12 current occupation is a programme coordinator for Sarajevo Television?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Now, do you recall yesterday, when you met me, I showed you a
15 statement from the 17th of May, 2006 that you gave to ICTY investigators?
16 A. Yes, I do. You showed it to me.
17 Q. And do you recall that you indicated that there were several
18 clarifications or amendments you wanted to make?
19 A. Yes. That's what I said.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I ask that 65 ter 02994 be
21 brought up on the screen.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 MR. SACHDEVA:
24 Q. Witness, do you see the front page of the statement there on your
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Do you see on the bottom of the first page your signature, at the
4 A. Yes. On the left-hand side of the screen.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we move to the next page, please.
6 Q. Now, I want to take you to paragraph 4 on the English and on the
7 B/C/S versions. If you look carefully at paragraph 4, there is a sentence
8 that starts: "I later learned that the bomb landed on the gravel on the
9 roof of the second floor where it exploded, and pieces of the bomb and
10 debris were able to later be seen in the area of the atrium between the
12 Do you see that written there?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Is there an amendment or a clarification you would like to make to
15 this sentence; and if there is, please explain.
16 A. Not in this sentence but in the next sentence, actually.
17 Q. Please explain the amendment, then.
18 A. In this statement it says that later I learned that the bomb
19 landed on the second floor, where it exploded, and pieces of the bomb and
20 debris were able to later be seen in the area between the buildings. I
21 don't believe this is true. The bomb did not explode on the roof; it
22 actually hit it and it exploded in the atrium, more precisely where studio
23 C was. So it first impacted - how shall I put it? - and after that slid,
24 if I may say so.
25 Q. Thank you for that. Now I take you to paragraph 7. In paragraph
1 7, do you see where it says: "Another employee, Margaret, was next to me
2 and I remember her calling my name and trying to help me stand up."
3 Do you see that written there?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Is there a clarification or an amendment you'd like to make to
6 this sentence; and if there is, please tell the Trial Chamber.
7 A. I would like to amend it, although everything, what it says here,
8 is correct. I was pushed by the detonation and covered with debris. My
9 colleague Margaret was in the office across the hall. Everything was in
10 rubble, but she ran to me, dug me out, so to speak, and helped me get out
11 of the building.
12 Q. Thank you for that.
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we move to the next page.
14 Q. Witness, can you look at paragraph 12. In paragraph 12, the
15 sentence that starts: "I also had a piece of shrapnel embedded in my
16 right cheek."
17 Do you see that sentence there?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And same question: Is there an amendment or a clarification that
20 you would like to make to that; and, in so, please tell the Trial Chamber.
21 A. Yes, I would like to make a clarification to this. It is right
22 that I had cuts above both eyes and the surface of my skin was damaged by
23 shards and things. But it's not very clear to me, this piece of shrapnel,
24 if it is a piece of the bomb, I wouldn't be sitting here alive.
25 In the next sentence it is better explained. It was just pieces
1 of glass and reinforced concrete and thick walls and windows, which means
2 that the detonation has pushed all the windows out, destroyed everything
3 in the offices. And all these pieces of debris flying around were
4 embedded into the bodies of all the people who were sitting in their
6 Q. And lastly can I take you to paragraph -- well, we'll have to go
7 to the next page, and if you could focus on paragraph 23, please.
8 In paragraph 23, where you speak about the problems with bread,
9 there is a sentence that starts: "So I went with another driver and we
10 attempted to distribute some bread."
11 Do you see that sentence there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you wish to make a clarification or amendment to that
14 sentence; and if so, please tell the Trial Chamber.
15 A. Yes, there is one thing I'd like to clarify. The greatest problem
16 was bread. Simply, there was no flour, water, or electricity in Sarajevo.
17 If there was any to be had, it was only in very small quantities. The
18 principal bakery in Sarajevo had limited quantities of bread. However,
19 simply because many people had been killed on account of the frequent
20 shelling -- the old name of the square was Pero Kosoric Square, which was
21 now called the Hero's Square, which is where I lived during the war.
22 Drivers were often killed there. In the meantime, in our neighbourhood,
23 many refugees from Grbavica had arrived and there wasn't enough bread for
25 All I'm trying to say here is that I was not a driver myself. I
1 was a civilian, and it was at my own initiative that I headed for the
2 bakery just in order to get some bread for my own family. I'm not sure if
3 that is sufficiently clear, or should I elaborate?
4 Q. No, that's fine. The clarification is that you were not the
5 driver; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, given these clarifications and amendments that
8 you've made here in court, does this statement now accurately reflect what
9 happened on the 28th of June, 1995, and also the experiences you had
10 during the conflict, with those clarifications made?
11 A. Given the fact that the number of pages is not that extensive,
12 it's true, what you say. It's all true, in fact, but a lot of additions
13 could still be made.
14 Q. Yes, very well. I will go through a few questions to elicit
15 further evidence on some issues.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: In any event, Mr. President, Your Honours, I would
17 like to tender this statement into evidence.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As P295, Your Honours.
20 MR. SACHDEVA:
21 Q. Now, Mrs. Musaefendic, you spoke just briefly about the injury
22 that you sustained to your cheek during this incident, and I want to ask
23 you: Did you go to hospital after that incident?
24 A. All of those who were injured were instantly taken to the Kosevo
25 Hospital and we received medical assistance, depending on our injuries and
1 under the circumstances that prevailed. All of us were assisted, and so
2 was I. The greatest problem for me was my eyes, because I wasn't able to
3 see. I wasn't able to use either of my eyes because of the blood, because
4 of the pieces of metal, and everything else.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would like to bring up 65 ter
7 Q. Witness, do you see a document on your screen there?
8 A. Yes. I see the B/C/S on the right-hand side and what I assume to
9 be the translation on the left-hand side.
10 Q. What is this document, very briefly?
11 A. I assume that this is one of those documents from the hospital,
12 the ones I got from being admitted. Upon arriving on the 28th of June at
13 the Kosevo Hospital, I was treated immediately. And after that -- I had
14 bandages over both my eyes. And after that, I would go regularly. Since
15 there were a lot more people at the hospital that sustained more serious
16 injuries than mine, I would come on a daily basis to receive injections to
17 both my eyes because the pressure in my eyes was very high.
18 And I think it's one of those doctors - what should I call them? -
19 the Czechs. I'm sorry if I'm being too effusive.
20 Q. Yes, if you could try and keep your answers as brief as possible
21 because we are under a time-limit.
22 So what I want to ask you now is: With this doctor's record, do
23 the injuries indicated on the record conform to the injuries you sustained
24 from that incident?
25 A. Yes, in relation to my eyes.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just for your information, for Your
3 Honours' information, this record has already been admitted into evidence.
4 Q. Now, let's talk very briefly --
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: With which P number; do you remember?
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance to the
9 Chamber. 65 ter 00185, page 39, that is the e-court reference.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. Witness, okay, I want to talk -- ask you a few questions about the
13 incident at the TV building.
14 Firstly, what time did you go into work that morning, if you can
16 A. I remember because it was a special day for me; it was my mother's
17 birthday. It was at about 7.00 in the morning. I got up early and walked
18 to the TV building. I was expecting a colleague of mine to fetch some
19 food for our team, from Split.
20 Q. Again, if you could keep your answers as succinct as possible,
21 that would be most appreciated. So you got to the building at 7.00 in the
22 morning. What time, do you remember, did the explosion occur, if you
23 remember that?
24 A. I arrived at about 7.30. Half an hour is what I normally take to
25 walk to work. The explosion occurred at about 10 or 20 minutes past
1 9.00. It's difficult to say.
2 Q. And during that time, from 7.30 until 20 minutes past 9.00, were
3 you at the TV building?
4 A. Yes. In the office, the office which was in the TV building.
5 Q. During that time that you were there, did you notice or see any
6 heavy weaponry or mortar weapons belonging to the Bosnian government
7 forces in the building or in and around the building?
8 A. Throughout that time and during the arrival itself, not in the
9 building or around the building. I did not see any of the weapons that
10 you mentioned.
11 Q. Did you see during that time any military personnel?
12 A. No, I did not see any military personnel. Just the usual TV
13 building security, people who are Sarajevo TV's employees, janitors. I'm
14 not sure what I should call them. Security men.
15 Q. After the explosion, did you find out or did you know if anyone
16 was killed as a result of the explosion?
17 A. It was in the hospital that we were told that one person had been
18 killed and many had been wounded, unfortunately.
19 Q. As you -- after the explosion, as you left the building, did you
20 notice any bodies on the ground, in the building or near the building at
21 all, while you were leaving the office?
22 A. After the explosion, some of our colleagues were taking those of
23 us who had been wounded or injured through the main entrance of the TV
24 building; the only entrance, for that matter. Outside the building itself
25 there were a great many wounded. I saw a body lying to the right, as you
1 leave the building. There was a man on the ground. Of course people were
2 trying to help. At this point in time I didn't know if any of them were
3 dead. Everybody was just trying to reach the hospital as quickly as
5 Q. And just to be clear, you say you saw a body lying to the right as
6 you leave the building; there was a man on the ground. Are you saying
7 that the body lying to the right was the man on the ground?
8 A. It wasn't just he. There were people around him, helping, and
9 there were other colleagues who were wounded and they were standing. It
10 was a messy scene. I'm not sure how I should put it. At this point in
11 time I didn't know who was alive and who was dead. There were people
12 there who were still alive as well, who were helping each other. I'm not
13 sure how I should explain that.
14 Q. I'm sorry, maybe my question is not concise enough. I'm just
15 trying to get a connection. The body you saw lying to the right, is that
16 the man that you say was on the ground? That's all I want to know.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Now, during the time that you were at the office, from 7.30 up
19 until the explosion, did you notice anyone bringing in bodies or a body to
20 the atrium or the office, at that time?
21 A. At the time I was inside the office - so I wasn't outside the
22 office - I was in no position to see or hear anything. I was inside the
23 office at that point in time and that was on the second floor.
24 Q. How many people were working at the office at that time?
25 A. I think about 12 persons. Twelve.
1 Q. If a dead body had been brought in prior to the explosion, would
2 that have been noticed by your colleagues?
3 A. Frankly, that would have been impossible. It would have been
4 impossible to do something like that for a very simple reason: This is an
5 official building, a state institution, and it's impossible to get past
6 security. Zillions of journalists, both foreign and domestic, it's
7 impossible to get something like this past them without anybody noticing,
8 something that just wasn't right; like a dead body, for example.
9 Q. And you earlier mentioned that you left through the only exit of
10 the building after the explosion. If somebody had brought a body in at
11 that time, would that have been noticed or witnessed?
12 A. Yes, 100 per cent.
13 Q. Now, when you met me yesterday, do you remember giving me two DVDs
14 with -- well, do you remember giving me two DVDs?
15 A. I do. I remember clearly giving you two DVDs.
16 Q. What were on those DVDs?
17 A. On one of those, there's the ARD TV coverage, and in the other
18 DVD, there's some old material with a coverage by Bosnia-Herzegovina TV as
19 well see CNN and SkyNews coverage, at least to the extent that I remember.
20 Q. The ARD TV coverage, well, firstly, can you say, which news
21 company is that, and where does it come from?
22 A. As far as I know, this is a German, state-owned TV station. I'm
23 not sure exactly how you spell that in German, but I think it's ARD. It's
24 quite well known, in fact.
25 Q. That's okay. Thank you. Who gave you this -- well, who gave you
1 these DVDs?
2 A. The ARD DVD is one that I'd asked a copy of, this footage from the
3 war, a war story, when I was wounded, and Mladen Pehar, who was a
4 cameraman for ARD at the time, provided a copy to me.
5 Q. Mladen Pehar, where did he work at the time?
6 A. For ARD. And he was Sarajevo-based.
7 Q. And where was his office.
8 A. On the second floor, same corridor as mine. Two doors down the
10 Q. That is the TV building in Sarajevo.
11 A. Yes, yes. The TV building, second floor.
12 Q. Now, I just want you to concentrate on the DVD you gave me from
13 the ARD, the German television -- the German news company. What is on
14 that DVD?
15 A. At the time Mladen Pehar was cleaning his camera, getting it ready
16 for new footage, for that day's footage, as any cameraman would do first
17 thing in the morning. This is something I learned later on. So you can
18 hear and see the sound of an explosion and the whole works; the dreadful
19 site of the offices in the corridor that had just been destroyed, people
20 wounded, the very first seconds following the explosion. He hadn't
21 realised himself that he had filmed it. It was only later on, when he put
22 the whole thing together for another journalist, that he realised that he
23 even got -- those early moments after the blast had also been filmed. So
24 that's the first DVD. And in case you should require more information, I
25 can provide further details.
1 Q. Yes, if I require, I'll ask you. I just want to be clear,
2 although I think it is it clear, but you say at the time Mladen Pehar was
3 cleaning his camera and getting it ready for new footage. When you say
4 "at that time," is it your evidence that it was five or ten minutes prior
5 to 9.20 or prior to the explosion at the TV building?
6 A. At the time I wasn't in Mladen Pehar's office. However, as any
7 cameraman worth his salt would do, before he started filming, he had
8 prepared his kit, his camera. He would get it all ready for the actual
9 filming. And I'm sure that he had spent the five or ten minutes just
10 before 9.00 doing that, because 9.00 is when everybody starts work.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would like to play an excerpt from
12 that --
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva, before moving on to
14 this, the witness has just talked about the explosion.
15 I would like, Witness, to ask you the following question: You
16 said that you heard some noise in relation to this incident, so I would
17 like to know the following: What kind of noise did you hear? Was it the
18 sound coming from an engine, from some flying object, or was it the sound
19 of a blast or of the explosion which we just talked about, which was
20 filmed and which we will be able to see in the video in a few minutes?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it's very difficult to
22 keep it brief.
23 The first sound I heard was a very powerful impact. I never heard
24 a sound like that before. I had heard shells exploding, mortars, snipers,
25 that sort of thing, but nothing like that. When the impact occurred,
1 everyone in the office was dead scared and we all threw ourselves down on
2 the floor in order to take cover, in a way. This sound was followed by an
3 even stranger sound. The best description that I could come up with is a
4 thousand tiny feet walking on pebbles. It's a very curious sound that I
5 will never forget. So it wasn't before the flashes started, these strange
6 flashes. A huge flash and then the detonation and then the ensuing chaos.
7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you a literary person? I was asking if you
9 are a literary person. I rather liked your description of "a thousand
10 tiny feet walking on pebbles."
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a literary person. I'm just
12 telling you the story straight from the heart.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Sachdeva.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Before I get to the excerpt, can I just ask, Mrs. Musaefendic, are
17 you depicted in this first DVD? Did you see yourself in that DVD after
18 the explosion?
19 A. Yes, as far as I remember.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: If I may now instruct my case manager to start the
21 DVD, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: You anticipated my question. Thank you.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the ARD office.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. SACHDEVA:
4 Q. Witness, this is not the TV building, is it?
5 A. No. This is a residential building in Sarajevo, at Alipasa's.
6 It's a neighbourhood in Sarajevo.
7 Q. And the bodies that we just saw being brought out on a stretcher
8 just before this clip do not relate to the TV building incident, do they?
9 A. No, they don't. They relate to this building, tenants from this
10 building. That's what crews usually filmed, human suffering.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: If we could just finish the video.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. SACHDEVA:
15 Q. Mrs. Musaefendic, does this excerpt -- is this excerpt an accurate
16 recording of news footage that you received from your colleague Mladen
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I move to tender this excerpt into
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P296, Your Honours.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: And that is the chief.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
25 Mr. Tapuskovic.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm Defence counsel for Dragomir
4 Milosevic, and I would like you to give me certain answers, if possible,
5 and please keep it brief. I would begin with a few questions relating to
6 what you have already been asked by my learned colleague Mr. Sachdeva.
7 Can you tell me, please, after how much time when you heard this
8 object sliding into the building did the explosion occur?
9 A. I don't understand what you mean by "sliding."
10 Q. You said that you first heard an impact on the roof.
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. How many seconds after that did you hear the explosion?
13 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't measure it. It seemed to me a
14 long time, but it wasn't, actually.
15 Q. Secondly, the man who was lying on the ground when you were
16 leaving the building and the people surrounding him, at that point in time
17 you didn't know what had happened to this man.
18 A. Excuse me, this man was not alone. There were many people from
19 the TV building who were injured there as well. This is where there's a
20 kind of roof above the entrance and people were standing there, waiting
21 for vehicles to take them to hospital. And as I said, at that moment I
22 myself didn't know how many people were injured or whether there were any
23 dead people.
24 Q. Thank you. And then you left?
25 A. No. I was taken away.
1 Q. Yes, so you were taken away?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know at all what happened subsequently? Was anyone taken
4 into the atrium after that?
5 A. I don't understand.
6 Q. Let me be more precise. Do you know at all what happened
8 A. What happened later I don't know, because at that time I was in
9 the hospital and I personally didn't see anything.
10 Q. Thank you. So you don't know if anyone was subsequently taken
11 into the atrium of the TV building.
12 A. Since this was a TV building, there were lots of cameramen there,
13 filming. As far as I was able to see, there was no one being carried
14 into -- inside.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this video that we
18 have just seen, or part thereof, these two DVDs were given to the Defence
19 only yesterday. I do not object to that. I managed to review part of
20 this material. And I would now ask my case manager to show two things
21 from these same DVDs but they relate to Mr. Silajdzic's statement given on
22 that day and the statement given by the representative of UNPROFOR on the
23 scene. And, if possible, I would like this to be translated for you, or,
24 rather, for me.
25 [Videotape played]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that we just saw, Mr. Tapuskovic?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We just saw part of the same
3 video, the fraction of which was shown by Mr. Sachdeva. However, I
4 decided to show something that I believe you should hear, so it's the same
5 CD and I move for it entirely to be entered into evidence, not just the
6 excerpt that we saw, but including these two statements. And these should
7 be admitted as counsel exhibits, and this material should not be shown in
8 -- in portions but, rather, as a whole. And, therefore, I move for it to
9 be tendered into evidence as Defence exhibit.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just be reminded to as what it is that we
11 have already admitted.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: That was excerpt taken from the DVD; in other
13 words, yes, an excerpt from the entirety of the DVD.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And this is another excerpt.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: This is from that same DVD; that is correct.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: To be admitted under a separate number.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it and give it a different number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As D91, Your Honours.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mrs. Witness, can you tell me at that time when this incident
22 happened, which truly is a horrible one, were there fierce clashes between
23 the warring parties at the time?
24 A. Was there a conflict between two warring parties, is that what
25 you're asking me?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. As far as I know that was an aggression against
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were no two warring parties. Because there
4 were on one side ordinary people without arms; and on the other side,
5 there was an armed force.
6 Q. I understand. In those days was there shooting from both sides
7 and even more from the people in Sarajevo who, according to you, were
8 defending themselves or then from the other side?
9 A. To tell you the truth, on that particular morning, sniping
10 activity was something habitual on my way from my house to work. However,
11 that was customary, but on that particular day it was rather quiet.
12 Q. We'll get back to this.
13 Now, I have in front of me the statement date 17th of May, 2006,
14 already tendered by the Prosecution. But there is another statement, too,
15 given on the 28th of June, 1995, or rather, on the 19th of July, and it
16 refers to the incident of the 26th of June, and it was given to the
17 Security Services of Sarajevo?
18 A. I don't remember the exact date. If you show to me and I see my
19 signature, I will remember. I know that I gave a statement to the
20 Security Services and investigators of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but I
21 honestly don't remember the dates.
22 Q. Besides, you gave another statement to the ICTY investigators on
23 the 11th of March, 1997?
24 A. I'm telling you again, I remember giving a statement both to the
25 ICTY investigators and the Sarajevo police, but I can't recall the dates
1 until unless you show the documents to me.
2 Q. I would kindly ask, first, for your statement given on the 19th of
3 July, 1995 given to the Security Services of Sarajevo, which is 65 ter
4 number 00185, e-court page 85, 00873890.
5 You can see this statement. I'm not going to read it to you in
6 its entirety. In the preamble, you can see that at the time you were
7 employed as a traffic technician with a WTN company, which is an American
9 A. Could you please enlarge this because the letters are too small,
10 and I can't read it properly.
11 Yes, now I can see clearly. It says in Bosnian that I was a
12 transport technician and that is what my qualification was, and it is true
13 that I was working for the American WTN agency.
14 Q. I'd rather not read the whole statement, but if it is necessary we
15 may well do so. But, look, you say here that this happened at 10 past
16 9.00. Can you see that?
17 A. Yes, that is what is written here.
18 Q. Let me read it for you. "About 10 past 9.00, I heard an unnatural
19 sound that I had not heard until by then, and it was followed by a heavy
20 thump. At that moment, I ducked and squatted down covering my head with
21 my hand."
22 Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
24 Q. Was that how it happened?
25 A. Yes. First an impact and then a strange sound.
1 Q. Then you go on to say: "During the next seven or eight seconds
2 nothing happened, so I stood up and looked in the direction of the
4 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
5 Q. Did it -- was it really seven or eight seconds that elapsed? Do
6 you know how long that is it before the explosion?
7 A. Yes. I know how long seven or eight seconds are, and I'm sorry I
8 really don't see the point of your question.
9 Q. So you abide by your statement that seven or eight seconds elapsed
10 before you heard the explosion?
11 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember how much time elapsed.
12 Just like I told you a minute ago, it seemed to be a long time. It may
13 have been shorter, but I cannot remember exactly.
14 Q. I'm not going to press this matter any further. I have my own
15 ideas about this, but it's not up to me to comment.
16 Further on in the document, you say --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please indicate where the
18 sentence starts.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, where does the sentence begin,
20 And remember we don't have a translation in English.
21 We now have the English. Where does the sentence begin?
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It begins, "At that moment I
23 heard a strong impact and then an unnatural flare. I heard another
24 detonation and then silence followed, because I lost consciousness as a
25 result of shock that I had endured."
1 Q. Is that how it happened?
2 A. Are you asking me? Yes, generally speaking, that's how it was.
3 Q. Now let me just read one more sentence, which says: "I'm not sure
4 who of my colleagues approached me and offered me his hand. After that, I
5 stood up. At that moment, I realised that I almost cannot see anything
6 with my right eye."
7 Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, only later on I gave the name of the person who helped me.
9 Q. You didn't mention this person. You refer to it as a male, but
10 this is not so relevant.
11 Let me continue with my questions about the statement presented to
12 you by my colleague Mr. Sachdeva?
13 A. Am I allowed to ask any questions or make statements?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, just answer the questions.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please display document 65
17 ter 02994, tendered as Prosecutor's evidence 295.
18 Let us look at page 2.
19 Q. Can you please look at paragraph 9, the last paragraph in the
20 B/C/S version, and it says: "I could not see very well and tried to wipe
21 my eyes. I then realised that my eyes and face were covered in blood."
22 Is that how it was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Why did you never mention any blood at the time when you gave your
25 first statement immediately after the incident, but you rather said what I
1 read to you a while ago, that you almost couldn't see anything with your
2 right eye and you never mentioned any blood. How do you account for that?
3 A. How do I account for that? As far as I remember, very soon after
4 the explosion and the injuries, the police sought statements; and if my
5 memory serves me well, I most probably said that. I don't know what
6 they -- why they didn't record it at the time.
7 Q. Okay, I understand. You did change slightly your statement
8 regarding the shrapnel embedded in your right cheek; and in paragraph 12
9 of this same statement, you say as follows. "The material was embedded in
10 my skin and started emerging or getting out a few weeks later."
11 Is that how it happened?
12 A. In the bag and in the front part of my body, after I would get up
13 in the morning, I would find pieces getting out of my body. My skin was
14 sore, and these were pieces of dirt and glass.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please display now for the
16 benefit of the Chamber, 65 ter 00185A already tendered -- shown by the
17 Prosecution, and that's the medical record that we have already seen.
18 There, that's the document. I don't see the English yet.
19 Yes, that's right.
20 Q. It says: "Clinic for Eye Diseases, Sarajevo, date 17 July 1995;"
21 and then it says what occurred on the 28th: "On the 28th of June, 1995,
22 Rialda Musaefendic was admitted to the outpatient clinic on account of
23 conjunctivitis traumatica. Is this the only document that you have left
24 that after all of this, everything we have heard about, everything that
25 you went through at the time? Is this the only document that you still
1 have? Is this the only document to show that you had shards of glass
2 embedded in your skin, everything you told us about? Or is it only about
3 this conjunctivitis, which every second person on this planet probably
4 suffers from?
5 A. Nobody asked me to provide a single finding. I should perhaps put
6 them altogether and then bring them. During the war, people went to
7 hospitals to receive treatment, but nobody really cared about the
8 paperwork to be frank.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to go back
10 to the statement dated the 11th of March, 1997. I have to go back to that
11 statement in order to show the witness something else, which is 65 ter
12 02 --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva is on his feet.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm not a doctor; but if my learned
15 friend is trying to indicate that the witness suffered from
16 conjunctivitis, which -- which is in my submission distinct to
17 conjunctivitis traumatica, I believe the word "trauma" has some
18 significance in this medical record, and it's simply not just
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have contradicted yourself. Apparently
21 you have some learning in the matter to do.
22 Mr. Tapuskovic, what are you trying to suggest by this line of
23 questioning? Tell us.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may just ask an additional
25 question about this document, then I'll tell you. Because in this
1 statement the witness claims that a piece of shrapnel hit her right sinus
2 and the area above her right eye. So that's another allegation that she
3 makes in the next statement and I can show you that. It's precisely --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you suggesting that her story, her evidence
5 is a fabrication?
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are?
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Well, let me hear the rest of your
10 questioning to see the extent of which you are able to substantiate that.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will first ask
12 the Witness this.
13 Q. What about CNN? They were on the spot on that day, weren't they?
14 Did they take any statements from the people there, statements like this?
15 Did they not show this as one of the most serious crimes committed by the
16 Serb side; isn't that right. This whole wide world saw this incident, and
17 this was presented as something as committed by the Serb side; including
18 what you described in this statement. Isn't that right, Witness?
19 A. I'm sorry. Do you mean that particular day, because that day I
20 was in the hospital. Once I was back, of course, I went back to my home
21 to see my mother. I'm not sure what you're asking me about, really.
22 Q. What about the world propaganda? Did the world propaganda not
23 seize on this and use it to present as a crime committed by the Serbs,
24 what Mr. Silajdzic said a while ago?
25 A. As far as I know, the TV crews and the TV agencies filmed the
1 truth and nothing but the truth which is what they always do, isn't it?
2 And they simply broadcast their coverage throughout the world. That's as
3 much as I can tell you.
4 Q. Can you at least allow for the possibility that it was the BH army
5 targeting the TV building in order to then show this up as something, a
6 crime, perhaps, committed by the other side? Is this a possibility that
7 you found -- you find plausible at least?
8 A. What exactly are you asking me? Can I just ask you, I'm not sure
9 I understand your question. What exactly do you want me to confirm? Yes,
10 no? What sort of answer are you expecting?
11 Q. In this case, or in any other case for that matter, is it possible
12 that the BH army targeted their own people in order to present this to the
13 world as a crime committed by the Serbs?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. You don't know about this incident either, do you?
16 A. About this incident, I know where the shell came from, I know
17 where the bomb came from, because that was the safest part of the TV
18 building. The second floor, inside the atrium, it was the safest place in
19 the TV building. Frankly, I don't what you're asking me.
20 Q. Just in order to assist the Chamber, where did the bomb come from?
21 A. It landed on the roof. It slid right down and eventually exploded
22 inside the atrium. That's what I saw.
23 Q. And who fired the bomb on the TV building?
24 A. From that side of the roof, facing that side of the roof is
25 Ilidza, as far as I know, and throughout the war this area was being held
1 by the army of Republika Srpska and the JNA.
2 Q. Did you know that there were international observers there,
3 monitors - and I'm not showing you any of that - who claimed that this
4 particular missile had been fired by the BH army, from territory held by
5 the BH army.
6 A. First I hear of it. I'd like to hear them confirm it for myself.
7 Q. The OTP never showed you any of those, did they?
8 A. No. Are they supposed to? I don't know. I'm not privy to this,
9 I'm sorry.
10 Q. I, for one, believe that they should have shown you that
11 particular document, a document that clearly indicates, which is far from
12 saying it's the absolute truth. It's for the Chamber to judge --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, that is out of order. That is a
15 Speaking for myself, there are two issues in this case,
16 Mr. Tapuskovic and the Defence. The first issue is from what direction
17 did the bombs or the shells come, from whose side? Did they come from the
18 side of the Serbs or from the side of the Bosnian government, the
19 Muslims? That's the first issue and the main issue. The second issue is
20 the responsibility of the accused under Article 7(3), command
21 responsibility. We haven't yet touched on that.
22 But the first one that I've identified is, in my view, speaking
23 for myself, the issue on which the Defence should be concentrating. I
24 don't see how it advances the case of the Defence for you to suggest that
25 this witness did not suffer the injuries that she alleges. How does that
1 advance your case? Your questioning should be directed at showing that
2 the bombs did not come from the side of the Serbs. That's the issue in
3 this case: Where did the bombs come from? Not trying to suggest that
4 she's not speaking the truth about the injuries that she suffered. That
5 doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will never deny
7 any of the human suffering suffered by the victims, but each witness has
8 to establish some sort of credibility in order for to us be able to take
9 their words at face value. I never, for a moment, doubt it, nor will I
10 ever for a moment try to deny anybody's suffering.
11 Look at paragraph 27, for example. Her statement, the very last
12 paragraph, the 17th of May. It's the last page.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's look at it when we resume.
14 We'll take the break now.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were directing us to paragraph 27 of the
20 witness's statement.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's true. I will get to it
22 eventually. But I do have a sequence of my own to follow, and I won't
23 take long, I promise that.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Follow your own sequence.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the 65 ter
1 statement 00185, the one that I dealt with earlier on. This is page 85 in
2 e-court. Can that please be admitted as a Defence exhibit, the English
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is it?
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe there's no translation.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that we are to admit? It's not the
8 document on the screen.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's her statement.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the statement, the first
12 statement, that I questioned the witness on; the 19th of July, 1995.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as Exhibit
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, I would like you to clarify paragraph 21.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can 65 ter 0294 be brought up for
19 the benefit of the witness. This is OTP Exhibit 259, a statement dated
20 the 17th of May. Paragraph 21.
21 Q. Can you see that, Witness? Here's my question: You say: "There
22 were Serb snipers in the hills above Hrasno and also in the Grbavica
23 stadium, and a favourite target of theirs was the street adjacent to our
24 building known as Ive Kranjecevica Street and now known as Dzamijska
25 Street. The Serb forces were at the foot of the hill."
1 Can you see that?
2 A. It's very difficult for me to see because the print is so small.
3 I find it difficult to read.
4 Q. Is it better now?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So I won't read it again.
7 A. Yes. I heard that. Paragraph 21. The Serb snipers and so on.
8 Q. Yes, that's right. "In the hills above Hrasno," what does that
9 mean? Which hill is that?
10 A. Above Hrasno there is Hrasno Brdo. That's what it's called,
11 Hrasno hill.
12 Q. Very well. And who was holding these positions, the main
13 elevations on the top of Hrasno hill at that time?
14 A. I don't know what you mean by "main elevations." I know that the
15 streets bordering on the Zeljeznicar stadium lead in the direction of
16 Hrasno hill, and those streets were under the control of the army of
17 Republika Srpska and the JNA at the time. If you were a Muslim, it just
18 wasn't possible to go there.
19 Q. I'm asking you about between the 10th of August, 1994, and the
20 21st of November, 1995. That's the time period I'm asking about you.
21 What sort of JNA are you talking about?
22 A. The period that you have just specified, I suppose that includes
23 as the terminal date the date that the Dayton Accords were signed. I'm
24 not sure which period you're referring to.
25 Q. Everything I'm asking about is about this time-period, the
1 time-period between the 10th of August, 1994, and the 21st of November,
3 A. Yes. There was firing there. They were still up there. There
4 were wounded people all around. You still couldn't cross those streets.
5 Q. So please explain this -- very well, okay. But what about this:
6 The Serb forces were at the foot of the hill. So who was up on the hill
7 and who was at the foot of the hill? Can you explain the distinction?
8 A. I'll do my best. There's this area that we call Zeljo's stadium,
9 the football pitch belonging to FC Zeljeznicar. That's at the foot of the
10 hill. And then there is Hrasno hill. The stadium connects Pero Kosoric
11 Square and the neighbourhood of Grbavica. That's at the foot of the hill
12 and Hrasno Brdo is on the top of the hill, isn't it?
13 Q. Okay. So who is holding the positions on top of Hrasno hill?
14 Which army?
15 A. At the time that you specified, along the top of the hill, there
16 were Serb soldiers, the Serbian army.
17 Q. Thank you very much. And then further down you say: "We were
18 near the front lines." What are you trying to say there? What exactly
19 were these front lines like in that area of Sarajevo, Hrasno?
20 A. Hrasno, all right, I can tell you about my neighbourhood, where I
21 lived. There was just a single street between us and the front line, so
22 that was the front line, a single street. There's a trolley-bus running
23 along that street now.
24 Q. Would the front line sometimes not cut across houses?
25 A. What exactly do you mean?
1 Q. I mean one part of the house on one side of the front and the
2 other on the other side of the front.
3 A. That certainly didn't apply to my neighbourhood.
4 Q. Anyway, you are stating categorically that on top of Hrasno hill
5 there was the army of Republika Srpska; right?
6 A. Yes, on top of the hill and at the Zeljo's stadium, as I said
8 Q. But isn't Zeljo's stadium down at the foot of the hill, in
10 A. Well, I'm sorry, you asked me to repeat and to tell you exactly
11 what I meant here, "at the foot of the hill." I explained what I meant by
12 "at the foot of the hill." There's a stadium right there, and these guys
13 were on top of the hill. I thought that explained it sufficiently.
14 Q. Yes, but I want to make this clear for the benefit of the
15 Chamber. Both Grbavica and Hrasno Brdo were being held by the army of
16 Republika Srpska; right?
17 A. Yes, the top of Hrasno hill and Grbavica as well; that's right.
18 Q. Thank you. Just to wrap this up. There's not that much left.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 27, which is the last
20 paragraph, the last paragraph of this statement. Paragraph 27.
21 Q. If my understanding is correct, you did a bit of journalism, too.
22 You worked with this American agency, didn't you, at the time?
23 A. It's only been brought up now, 27. I started working with the
24 agency. Well, you know, this is the usual practice whenever you come to
25 an agency: First I brewed coffee for people and then I became the
1 assistant producer and then producer and then the office manager. I was
2 moving up and my title, my job title, changed.
3 Q. What about the time that I discussed a while ago, the end of 1994
4 and November 1995? You were well informed about everything that was
5 happening in Sarajevo, weren't you?
6 A. What exactly do you mean, "well informed"?
7 Q. Well, you knew what was happening in that final year, for example,
8 who was firing at whom.
9 A. If you are seeking my opinion, yes, I did know who was shooting
10 and I knew where I was living.
11 Q. Can you explain to me -- you mentioned an aggressor several times
12 earlier. Can you explain to me what do you mean by an aggressor?
13 A. An aggressor, in my view, is someone who allows me one day to lead
14 a normal life, and then on the next day or two days later there was mortar
15 shell and my first neighbour loses a finger and then suddenly there is
16 war. That's what I call aggression.
17 Q. I understand that.
18 A. Aggression against me personally and the people.
19 Q. And what's happening about the people on the other side of the
21 A. I don't understand. Where you are referring to? I don't
22 understand your question.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 A. Thank you.
25 Q. Paragraph 27, you say: "I experienced a degree of sadness when
1 the peace agreement was signed and the war was over, because I realised
2 that this could have been done achieved much earlier and would have saved
3 a lot of the lives."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know anything about who, in 1993, didn't want peace at all?
7 A. What do you mean? Who didn't want to conclude a peace agreement
8 at all? I know that I personally didn't want war to happen at all.
9 Q. Nobody wanted the war. There is not a sane and reasonable person
10 in the country who wanted war. But I'm asking you, do you know anything,
11 since you worked for the new agency, who was against this agreement which
12 would provide for avoiding further victims?
13 A. I only know who continued shelling Sarajevo and that was the
14 Serbian side.
15 Q. Thank you. Just one more question and then I'll conclude my
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But I need to tender the
18 document, 65 ter 02995, dated 11th of March, 1997. That's the statement
19 given by Witness Rialda. And if we can have it brought up on the
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you seeking to tender this, Mr. Tapuskovic?
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me just show a small
23 portion of it to the witness, and after that, I will move for it to be
24 admitted. I will be very brief. I just actually want to ask one question
25 in relation to this document, page 2, paragraph 5. I think it won't be
1 difficult to find it both in the English and B/C/S versions.
2 Q. Let me go back to what you said with regard to this conjunctivitis
3 you mentioned, and when you said there was no other paper relating to your
4 injuries. You said that: "I received a shrapnel wound to my right sinus
5 and above my left eye. I had small bits of metal in my face and lots of
6 cuts on my back and other parts of my body."
7 That's your last statement, and is it true, that you said this?
8 A. If it's reads like that, then it is. I would only like to say
9 that initially I asked for an explanation for this. I know exactly what I
10 went through, and I know that I was wounded by a piece of metal, by pieces
11 of reinforced concrete and bars. And I think I said that at the
12 beginning. As far as medical records are concerned, I said that nobody
13 asked me to provide them.
14 Q. You have corrected your statement with regard to what you said on
15 the 17th of May, but this is a completely different thing. What I read
16 out to you is something completely different. And you stand by this, that
17 this is how it happened and this is what you went through?
18 A. I stand by the fact that I survived a modified aerial bomb which
19 landed on the 28th of June, 1995, on the TV building of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that I had experienced trauma.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave --
22 and I will finish with this. By your leave, I would like to present a
23 document that I referred to on several occasions. It's D31, marked for
24 identification through this witness. I would like to tender it, but first
25 of all, let me just say one very fundamental thing. There is an UNPROFOR
1 report showing that, according to UNPROFOR and their findings, the TV
2 building was fired on by the BH army. Can the witness comment on this.
3 It's our number DD00-0463.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. Well, now the document is on the screen, but
6 I would just ask counsel to be accurate in the way he presents the
7 contents of this document. It's a report and it reports on another person
8 stating that he had heard or he had seen and, according to him -- in other
9 words, a report filed by somebody else that this was fired by the BH
10 army. It's not, in my submission, a conclusion or a definite fact.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me ask you: Witness, do you know
13 anything about an UNPROFOR report to the effect that -- it's from a
14 Captain Hansen, Captain Hansen, who is reporting something that was told
15 to him to the effect that the TV building had been fired on by the BH
17 First, do you know anything about that report?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what do you say to the suggestion that the TV
20 building was fired upon by the BH army?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the BH army did not
22 fire upon the TV building.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have any specific grounds for that belief?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, in terms that I'm capable of
25 providing you with evidence. But no, in the condition of the BH army,
1 especially in Sarajevo, how they were organised and other things, they
2 were defending their lives; and in addition to that, they didn't have that
3 type of weapons. And prior to that I never heard of these type of
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
6 She can't help any further with this document, Mr. Tapuskovic. In
7 any event, this document has been marked for identification, and you'll
8 recall that I have invited the Prosecution to call Mr. Hansen, Captain
9 Hansen, rather, and I will get a report from the Prosecution early next
10 week. If I'm not satisfied with the report, the Chamber will call Captain
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to
13 finalise now, but I asked your permission to ask the witness about this,
14 and I said that at the very outset. But I don't understand Mr. Sachdeva's
15 attitude, that this is just a story rather than an official UNPROFOR
16 report, something that has been highly regarded by this Court.
17 That's all I wanted to say, and with this I conclude my
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, do you want me to respond to this?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. He has completed his cross-examination.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: No. No questions, Mr. President.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your evidence is now completed; we thank you for
25 giving it. You may now leave.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't ask that
3 this last statement be tendered into evidence; 65 ter 02995, dated the
4 11th of March. I just showed the witness a small portion thereof.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems as if you have tendered it. It's D93.
6 I will just ask the court deputy to confirm.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, it's admitted as D93.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Mr. Waespi is taking the next
10 witness. Might I be excused for a moment?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, the next witness is Dzemaludin
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: DZEMALUDIN LUINOVIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.
22 And you may begin, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 If 65 ter number 02996, a witness statement dated the 10th of
25 March, 1997, could be retrieved, please.
1 Examination by Mr. Waespi:
2 Q. Good evening, Mr. Witness.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Can you please state your name for the record.
5 A. Dzemaludin Luinovic.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please look at the document which
7 appears on your screen. Please let us know if you cannot read properly
8 because it's too small.
9 Do you recognise that document?
10 A. I recognise my signature, but I cannot read. I left my glasses in
11 Sarajevo, so it's going to be difficult.
12 Q. Thanks for letting us know. I hope we can do without your
13 glasses. I hope. But can you go as far as saying this is the witness
14 statement you gave to investigators from the Tribunal on the 10th of
15 March, 1997?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, did you have a chance to review this statement this morning
18 in my office? And I think that parts of it were read out to you; do you
19 remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do. I remember.
21 Q. Now, if we go to the second page of this document, to the third
22 paragraph, the last line - and I can read it for you - it talks about you
23 being --
24 A. All right.
25 Q. The paragraph talks about you being a reserve policeman in
1 Sarajevo, starting from 15 May 1995 until 1996. And then, and I
2 quote: "During the period of the war, my private workshop was also used
3 as a workshop for the BH army." That private workshop is, as you see from
4 the previous paragraph, a shop repairing car bodies on a private basis.
5 Now, is it true that you also worked for the BH army, or was it,
6 rather, somebody else?
7 A. Please, I'll tell you the truth. This was my workshop before the
8 war, but I allowed the Novi Grad police station to use it because I was a
9 member of the reserve police force. As long as I had material, I was able
10 to work on mostly small cars, Golf cars. When I ran out of material, they
11 took me to work as a policeman securing various facilities, streets, et
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Luinovic, for this clarification. Now,
14 with this correction, is the witness statement, as you read it this
15 morning in my office, a true and accurate record of what you told the
16 investigator about your experience in Sarajevo?
17 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And if you were to answer the same questions today, would these
19 answers be the same as recorded in your statement of 10 March 1997?
20 A. I have nothing to change. What I saw I will describe, and what I
21 suffered I also described.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic.
23 MR. WAESPI: I would like to tender this statement, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P297, Your Honours.
1 MR. WAESPI: If a second document could be retrieved. It's ter
2 number 02997, a second witness statement the witness gave to the Office of
3 the Prosecutor. If the document on the left could be scrolled to the
4 bottom so the signature blocks are seen.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Luinovic, is that a second witness statement you gave to
6 the investigators of the Tribunal?
7 A. Yes. This is my signature and I corroborate that. Probably it
9 Q. Are you sure it is, or is it only probable?
10 A. This is my statement; this is my signature; therefore ...
11 Q. And did you have a chance to read your statement, or, rather, was
12 it read out to you this morning in my office?
13 A. It was read out to me in full. There was just a minor correction,
14 and we saw what it was all about a minute ago.
15 Q. And in relation to this second document, which dates last year,
16 26th of April, 2006, if you were to answer the same questions today, would
17 these answers be the same as recorded in this statement?
18 A. Although it's been many years now, I think that this statement and
19 the one I gave a few years ago would coincide at least 90 per cent or
20 perhaps even 100 per cent.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic.
22 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if that could be tendered as an
23 exhibit as well.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P298, Your Honours.
1 MR. WAESPI: I do have only one additional exhibit with this
2 witness, and that's a photo, ter number 02998. If that could be
3 retrieved, please.
4 Q. And while that is being done, Mr. Luinovic, I do have a few
5 questions for you but it shouldn't take too long. Do you remember the
6 26th of May, 1995, when your neighbourhood was shelled? Do you remember
7 that day?
8 A. Yes, I do, clearly, as if I'm looking at it right now.
9 On the 26th of May, 1995, of course I was a member of the reserve
10 police. Upon arrival at the police station on that day, I was given my
11 assignment, an order to go to Novi Grad municipality in Sarajevo. I went
12 to Novi Grad municipality and I provided security for the municipality
13 building. That was an eight-hour shift. I was a bit tired after working
14 on the beat around the building; I just leaned against it. And it must
15 have been -- I never measured it, but it must have been 5 kilometres, as
16 the crow flies, to Ilidza.
17 While I was resting a bit, I saw something big coming from Ilidza,
18 and as it was coming closer and closer, I thought that it was an
19 airplane. And I said to myself, It's impossible that an airplane is
20 flying so low. It's going to hit one of these buildings here for sure."
21 Just a few seconds later, it hit a building next to the house, my
22 house, because my house is just opposite. Between 20 and 25 metres.
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Luinovic, thus far.
24 Can we have a look at the photo which should be displayed on your
25 screen. Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, yes, I see that. I see it clearly. It's been long since I
2 last looked at a photograph like this. I've never seen my neighbourhood
3 photographed this way. I recognise every blade of grass.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I can show you my home, if you like.
6 Q. Yes, please, with the assistance of Mr. Usher, if you could take
7 one of these magic pens and mark your home, please.
8 A. This is my home.
9 Q. And --
10 A. This is my home.
11 Q. Can you add the letter A, please, next to it.
12 A. The building that the shell landed on?
13 Q. No. First, just next to the circle, where you have indicated
14 where your home was.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you add the letter A?
17 A. That's it.
18 Q. Yes, thank you very much. And then can you indicate where the
19 municipal building was, where you were standing as a guard that morning?
20 A. The municipal hall -- it's like this. It's from this intersection
21 and then this way. This is the transformer building, the high-voltage
22 building, the transformer, the electricity, you know. It's right next to
23 the municipal hall, so it should be around here. It's right here. This
24 is the waterworks building, this building over here.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. It's water for drinking.
2 Q. You made several markings now. Can you please indicate with the
3 letter B where you say that the municipal building was.
4 A. The municipal hall. It didn't catch on. I don't have it in the
5 photograph, you know, but it's this way, and then this goes all the way
6 towards the municipal building. Letter D, there.
7 Q. Okay. So you marked -- just on top of that four-lane road, you
8 marked a few circles, concentrated circles, and that's the direction you
9 say the municipal building was.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And can you tell us, in metres, how far away was the municipal
12 building from your home, which you have indicated with the letter A? What
13 was the distance, if you can tell?
14 A. Well, I didn't really measure it, so this is more like debt
15 reckoning. You probably would need a land surveyor there to give you the
16 distance. But what I would say, just by looking at it, 250 metres.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Luinovic. Now, when you were on guard,
18 on duty, rather, outside the municipal building, did you wear a uniform;
19 were you armed?
20 A. I was wearing a uniform, a camouflage uniform. I was carrying a
21 semi-automatic rifle, a pistol, and a truncheon.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic. Now, going back to that projectile you
23 saw coming from Ilidza, how far away were you from the projectile? I
24 guess it's very difficult to judge that, but do you have an opinion how
25 far away you were from that projectile when you saw it for the first time?
1 A. The first time I saw it, I think it was about 2 kilometres from
2 where I was standing, which means 2.000 metres.
3 Q. And did you see where it was landing?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you indicate on this photo where it was landing.
6 A. Right here.
7 Q. And can you add the letter C next to this last mark.
8 A. Sure.
9 Q. Thank you very much. Now, this projectile, do you know what kind
10 of projectile it was? Was it a mortar? Was it an artillery grenade? Was
11 it something else?
12 A. This was a rocket shell fired from a launching pad. It couldn't
13 have been done by an artillery weapon or anything like that. How shall I
14 put it? I'm really no military expert at all, but I do know a thing or
15 two. It's a big mortar shell and you need a launching pad for something
16 like that. I suppose the JNA had those. Not that I saw any; just an
18 Q. Now, you said a moment ago you saw the impact. Can you describe
19 that, the impact, as you saw it?
20 A. Sure. I saw it coming from up there. I thought it was a plane
21 flying low, or something like that, about to hit the ground. And then it
22 hit this building. It wasn't before then that I realised that this was a
23 shell with the two or three motors. I really hadn't a clue. I'm no
24 military analyst or anything. But it probably had some motors, a system
25 in place for propulsion.
1 So it's the same sort of distance at which another couple of
2 shells landed which I hadn't seen coming. But I did see this one and I
3 can tell about this. As for those other ones, those other shells, I can't
4 say because I didn't see them coming in.
5 When I realised that the shell hit this building and it was near
6 my home - it's the building next to my home - there was so much dust in
7 the air and bits of concrete flying all over the place; mortar off the
8 walls; doors and windows smashed; bits flying through the air. There was
9 rubble strewn all across the road. So I ran and I ran from here, in this
10 direction. I was reckoning, I was hoping that none of my family had been
12 It was so difficult to see. The dust was so thick that I couldn't
13 even see the building. There was so much dust flying. When I realised
14 that the shell had hit the building, I went to the other building, to my
15 home. My daughter was out in the yard; she was crying. I took her in my
16 arms and I took her to our neighbour's house. I stayed in my own front
17 yard with my father, watching. I realised that they weren't bringing out
18 any body.
19 Two or three cars arrived. UNPROFOR, UNHCR. I hadn't a clue, to
20 be frank, but --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
22 Elicit the evidence bit by bit, please.
23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Luinovic, that there were, apart from this
25 specific projectile, other shells that landed near your home. Can you
1 tell us exactly where these other shells landed.
2 A. Sure, of course. I told my father immediately, "I know what
3 they're doing. They're firing a large shell and then they're firing more
4 small shells to hurt more people." Many people were killed in Sarajevo
5 because they went out to see where the shells had fallen, which resulted
6 in more casualties than strictly necessary. And I told my
7 father, "Listen, old man, go back to your home and I'll go back to mine
8 until the whole thing settles down."
9 I took my daughter and I took her to my neighbour's basement. I
10 went back to my own house, to the bathroom to be more precise --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question that was asked was: Can you tell us
12 exactly where these other shells landed? Where did the shells land?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first shell that landed? Can I
14 mark it?
15 MR. WAESPI:
16 Q. Yes, please.
17 A. There. It fell right there. It came from Ilidza. It hit the
18 tarmac right here, the road. I mean it ricochetted and smashed against my
19 building, drilling a two-by-two hole.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic. Now, you just made a marking between
21 letter A and C in the middle of that four-lane road. Can you please add
22 the letter D to that last marking.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, on several occasions
24 the witness has said that the shell came from Ilidza. Could he tell us
25 and show us on this photograph where the shell came from, from Ilidza?
1 Could we see this?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Sure, sure. I'm looking
3 at it. This is the shell that came from Ilidza, right here, and from
4 Ilidza, right here. And Ilidza is over there, roughly speaking, you see.
5 And then further up there's another --
6 Q. Mr. Luinovic, it's very difficult for us to follow you unless it
7 is recorded, what are you doing on the photo.
8 Can you tell us -- you made a few marks originating from the
9 letter C towards the left. Do these marks indicate where you say the
10 direction of these shells, where they were flying in?
11 A. Yes, yes, yes.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic. So you're saying that Ilidza is on the
13 left side of this photo or on the right side of this photo?
14 A. To the left.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic. Now, let me ask you just a couple of
16 more things. Looking at this photo, were there any military targets in
17 this area, to your knowledge?
18 A. Let me tell you, I am against military targets in this area. You
19 see this neighbourhood? They would have wiped us all out. They would
20 have wiped us all out. There was no military formation there, just
21 civilians, people who had been mobilised. Some drafted into the army,
22 some into the police.
23 Q. Now, on this morning were there any soldiers walking around,
24 running around, you know, assembling together, according to what you saw
25 and observed when you were on duty on -- near that municipality building?
1 A. No, I didn't notice anyone, really, no one moving about. Maybe
2 some headed for their shifts, on their way to work. They all had shifts.
3 But there was nothing like that. You know, even three or four people
4 assembling, you know, you would hear things like that. You heard shells
5 falling all over the place. You weren't supposed to be caught outside,
6 were you?
7 Q. My last question is, in 1994 and 1995, did you ever see a mortar
8 or any other weaponry operated by the ABiH forces in this area, this area
9 you see on this photo?
10 A. I never went to the front line. I was living my life on
11 Sarajevo's asphalt all the time. I don't even know. I had my own rifle.
12 It was so rusty that I passed it on to someone to clean it for me, because
13 rain would fall and then the iron bits. I never really cleaned it
14 properly myself. I gave it to someone else to clean. But I never fired a
15 single bullet.
16 Q. Let me just reiterate my question. Did you see ABiH mortars being
17 located, being fired, being stationed, anywhere in this neighbourhood, the
18 one we see here in this photo? Can you answer that question, please.
19 A. No, no. No, no, no. Not here. Not here. No military formations
20 at all, not around this neighbourhood. I'm not say other places. But
21 this neighbourhood, my neighbourhood, no military there. No necessity
22 either. What we would have had soldiers there for?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps you can explain that, when you say, "What
24 would we have had soldiers there for?" Are you suggesting that there
25 would have been no need for ABiH soldiers there?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a town. The front lines
2 were outside the town, as far as I know.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where would one find the nearest set of ABiH
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Far away; 3 kilometres, 4, perhaps,
6 from this neighbourhood. No nearer.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: 3 to 4 kilometres. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thereabouts.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And in what direction?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: In what direction would one find those ABiH
12 soldiers, 3 to 4 kilometres away? Perhaps even more precisely, can you
13 tell us where that would be?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you one thing.
15 There was this belt around Sarajevo. The front line was around Sarajevo.
16 There was no front line inside Sarajevo. That's where the city was. You
17 defend a city outside the city, around the city, not inside. If we had
18 allowed the Serbs to get in, they would have slit all of our throats. But
19 I'm telling you, we guarded our town from outside, from around it. I
20 never went to the front line because I was some sort of a policeman, that
21 sort of thing. I was securing buildings; I was walking the beat, that
22 sort of thing.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Last question. How far were the
24 Serb lines from the army of the Republika Srpska?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from where my home was, I
1 would say that the nearest line was at Nedzarici, 4.5 kilometres, perhaps
2 5 kilometres from my home. It's difficult to say, but thereabouts.
3 MR. WAESPI:
4 Q. And perhaps to conclude, for everybody's understanding of this
5 photo, I see a couple of significant buildings on this photo. The one on
6 top, the large one, kind of yellowish, can you tell Their Honours what
7 that building was.
8 A. You mean this one to the right?
9 Q. No. If you look at this dotted line you made, indicating the
10 direction where the shells were coming from Ilidza just above it, you kind
11 of see a large building.
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Can you please mark it with a circle.
14 A. That's the one.
15 Q. Yes, exactly. Please add the letter E next to it.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Luinovic. What was that building in May --
18 A. This was a school. This was a school. You see no windows on it,
19 no doors. People took it away to use as firewood because they needed to
20 cook their meals. As for the rest, this was for small children, like a
21 creche, daycare.
22 Q. The next building I'm interested in is at the bottom. At the very
23 bottom we have private homes, it appears, and just above them there are a
24 couple of flat buildings, bottom left. Can you tell Their Honours what
25 these buildings were used for during the war?
1 A. This building right here. The low building right here, you see a
2 single floor.
3 Q. Yes. Can you make a circle around it again.
4 A. It's like this. Let's do it like this, because you might want to
5 know about this other building, too.
6 Q. Yes, that's correct. Can you add the letter F, please.
7 A. F?
8 Q. Yes. It looks like an F to me. Can you please explain what the
9 building was used for.
10 A. This building is still used -- it was just like it was in
11 wartime. This is the heating plant. This is where they kept the coals,
12 you know, small bits of coal used for heating.
13 Are you interested in any other buildings?
14 Q. The building just below that heating plant.
15 A. You mean this one; right? Or this? This is -- what should I call
16 it? These were shops. This was a candy shop or an ice-cream parlor right
17 here. This is where the health centre was, and this other one is --
18 Q. Can you again mark a circle where you say the candy shop was.
19 A. Right there.
20 Q. And please add the letter G next to it.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Thank you. And just my last question. Are there any other
23 important buildings on this photo which you think we should know about?
24 A. Sure. You see this one over here, the yellow one, this was the
25 locally commune building, and that's what it was during the war as well.
1 Q. Yes. You just circled it. Please add the letter H next to it.
2 A. I put a circle around it.
3 Q. Yes, very well. Thank you very much, Mr. Luinovic.
4 MR. WAESPI: That concludes my examination-in-chief,
5 Mr. President. And I would like to tender this photo into evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P299, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we have five minutes for
10 Didn't you say you were finished?
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I did. I was thinking. I'm sorry, I'm sitting
12 down right now.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I represent Dragomir Milosevic. Not
18 only because it's my duty but because I fell a general need, I would like
19 to ask you something about some of your answers that you provided in
20 chief. Please be as brief as you can.
21 A. Sure. Go ahead.
22 Q. The first thing I heard is you were a reserve police officer
23 throughout the war; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Throughout the war you were armed, armed as you described, a rifle
1 and a pistol; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You never used either of these weapons, did you, to fire?
4 A. I had a licenced pistol from before the war. Back at home where I
5 lived, and I lived near the airport, in Akifa Seremeta 14, the Aerodrom
6 neighbourhood, that's where I had my flat --
7 Q. Can you keep it brief, please.
8 A. The Serbs came along and they took my pistol away, the licenced
9 gun that I had, and I never saw it again. It was never given back to me.
10 The pistol that I had was one that I'd signed for back at the station.
11 They gave it to me. I didn't actually make anyone issue me with a gun.
12 Being a police officer, I was probably supposed to carry a weapon. In
13 town you need a weapon; you can't just walk around like that.
14 Q. At some point during the war, probably, your hand was forced. You
15 had to use your weapon, didn't you?
16 A. I worked with civilians. That sort of thing was not called for,
17 believe me. But I just carried it around.
18 Q. I would like to focus in my cross-examination - and I mean that
19 about tomorrow, too - on the time-period between the 10th of August and
20 November, around that time when the Dayton Accords were signed. I want to
21 know about that time-period and that's what I'll be asking you about.
22 A. Sure. Go ahead, please.
23 Q. Throughout this period, was there any firing at all from
24 Sarajevo? Perhaps you can tell me about that. Perhaps you can tell me
25 about what the citizens of Sarajevo experienced throughout that period.
1 A. You just watched it on TV, I suppose, didn't you? There were all
2 sorts of things happening; people being killed, people being wounded,
3 hungry people. Most of all, hungry people.
4 Q. What about across the front line?
5 A. What do you mean, across the front line? Who was firing; is that
6 what you're asking me?
7 Q. First of all, what I'm asking you is was there any firing from
8 inside Sarajevo, firing across the front line, the confrontation line?
9 A. I'll answer like this. I was no commander or anything. I was
10 just a salt-of-the-earth police officer. I didn't have any business being
11 at the front line, firing bullets.
12 Q. But that wasn't my question, was it?
13 A. Fine, fine. I'm just telling you.
14 Q. I was asking if anyone in Sarajevo was firing at the Serbs, so to
16 A. Well, I just said it, haven't I? I was no commander. I didn't
17 order anyone to fire. I carried this rifle, but someone else actually
18 cleaned it for me, because it was raining very often and the rifle had
19 begun to rust, the iron bits did. So I can't answer that question, can I?
20 Q. So what you're saying is that nobody from Sarajevo ever fired at
21 the Serbs.
22 A. I haven't a clue, to be quite frank.
23 Q. Thank you. A while ago, in answer to one of the questions by the
24 Prosecutor, you said that in this area you never saw any heavy weapons or
25 a mortar. Nothing like that.
1 A. I would be the first to stand up against it. There was never
2 anything like that.
3 Q. Stand up against it? What exactly do you mean?
4 A. I told him them to go away. I'd do anything I could. I want my
5 child to be left in peace. Let me tell you something. The Serb army had
6 all sorts of weapons, heavy weapons. They were in a position to detect
7 where fire was coming from, you know. They were in a position to say.
8 And sometimes they would ascertain that fire was coming from a particular
9 neighbourhood, and obviously they would just shower the place with shells.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
11 We're going to break for the day and resume tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of
14 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.