Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4062

1 Tuesday, 27 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, you are to conclude your

7 re-examination; 15 minute, I understand.

8 MR. WHITING: I think, Your Honour, it will be even less than 15

9 minutes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Less than 15 minutes, so much the better.


12 Re-examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

13 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. I just have a few more questions to ask

14 you. Yesterday, you made a reference in your testimony to collegium

15 meetings. Can you tell us what these collegium meetings were, and how

16 often they occurred?

17 A. These were meetings of the corps command, or rather, the top

18 officers in the corps command. In principle, they took place once a week;

19 and, when necessary, either more frequently or less frequently, depending

20 on the situation and the needs involved.

21 Q. Would the corps commander himself attend these meetings?

22 A. When the commander was there, he did attend, or rather, he chaired

23 the meetings of the collegium. If not, the meetings would be chaired by

24 his deputy; that is to say, the Chief of Staff of the corps.

25 Q. Would you attend these meetings?

Page 4063

1 A. When I was invited, of course, I attended.

2 Q. Were you invited -- were you ordinarily invited, or did that occur

3 only on special occasions?

4 A. Most often. Well, regularly, it would happen almost every time

5 there was a meeting.

6 Q. And what level of commander was at the meeting; for example, were

7 brigade commanders there, battalion commanders? How far down the chain of

8 command did it go, in terms of participation at these meetings?

9 A. Collegium meetings were attended by the members of the command;

10 that is to say, the top officers in the corps command; and, when

11 necessary, the commander could invite any commanding officer of any lower

12 ranking units depending on the situation, depending on the subject that

13 was to be discussed, that is.

14 Also there were meetings that were attended by all commanders of

15 brigades, but these were not meetings of the collegium. These were

16 meetings, well, of the top officers at command level and brigade

17 commanders.

18 Q. And how often did those meetings occur?

19 A. Such meetings were held, depending on the situation, I cannot say

20 exactly; that is to say, that such meetings did not have a previously set

21 protocol and such meetings were not planned. It depended on the actual

22 needs involved.

23 Q. Now, yesterday, you were asked in cross-examination some questions

24 concerning the reports from the prosecutor's office, the military

25 prosecutor's office that went into evidence. When a possible criminal

Page 4064

1 violation was referred to the military prosecutor's office for

2 investigation, can you tell us who would -- which body or which

3 individuals would actually conduct the investigation on behalf of the

4 prosecutor's office?

5 A. I don't know what the answer to that question would be. That

6 would belong to the line of work of the prosecutor's office, and the corps

7 command did not have any kind of relationship of hierarchy with them, in

8 terms of subordination. We just cooperated with them, but the military

9 judiciary and the prosecutor's officer are independent.

10 Q. Did you yourself participate in criminal investigations or conduct

11 criminal investigations?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you -- do you recall receiving any complaints or protest

14 letters from UNPROFOR about sniping and shelling of civilians?

15 A. Are you referring to me personally?

16 Q. No. I'm referring to the SRK command receiving them, and you

17 being aware of them.

18 A. I'm not aware of any of that. My line of work was completely

19 independent of that. Not at a single point in time was I involved or my

20 subordinates or was that the purview of my work in terms of relations with

21 UNPROFOR, or rather, the relationship between the army of Republika Srpska

22 and UNPROFOR. There were officer who is were in charge of UNPROFOR, and

23 they indeed cooperated with the representatives of UNPROFOR. I wasn't one

24 of them.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4065

1 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions. Thank you, Your

2 Honours.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good afternoon, Witness.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have a few clarifying questions for you.

8 The first question relates to your knowledge of the relation

9 between the corps commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, that is the

10 accused, and General Ratko Mladic. Can you tell us, if you know, what was

11 the operative relation between the two; and to be more specific, I'm

12 asking you to tell us, if you know, what degree of freedom the accused had

13 in conducting the military operations around Sarajevo at the time when you

14 were working in the corps?

15 A. As far as I know, the relations were professional and soldierly,

16 in terms of subordination; that is to say, the commander of the Main Staff

17 was the superior of the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Perhaps

18 I did not remember what the other part of your question was. Oh, freedom.

19 The responsibilities of the corps commander are set, and it is

20 specified which decisions he can take on his own and for which he has to

21 seek the approval of his superior officer.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. My question was exactly about the

23 range of autonomy that the corps commander would have in deciding the

24 military operations in and around Sarajevo at the time. Could you give us

25 an example of an order coming from General Ratko Mladic and then being

Page 4066

1 translated into action by the accused? What -- I'm curious about the

2 degree of freedom which the accused had in determining the course of

3 events.

4 A. I cannot really give you an answer, unless I were to engage in

5 guesswork. I was never corps commander, so I don't know what the

6 responsibilities of corps commanders are in terms of their work, in terms

7 of holding that position, that is.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I suppose these questions would have been

9 questions discussed during the collegium meetings, would they not?

10 A. As for orders given by a superior, there is no discussion about

11 that. You can only talk about how an order can best be carried out.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: If orders came from the supreme authority of

13 General Mladic down to the corps, and the corps commander would then have

14 to decide which actions were to be taken in -- in the fulfilment of the

15 order that came from above, I suppose that during the collegium meetings

16 the corps commander would inform the staff, the top staff, about the order

17 that had come from above and just how he, the accused, would now implement

18 these orders. So can you recall any such example from your participation

19 in the collegium meetings?

20 A. The procedure is fully regulated. There are regulations as to how

21 an order is carried out and how a decision is made. It depends on the

22 amount of freedom left to the subordinate officer by his superior in the

23 order issued, so it has to do with the way in which subordinate units are

24 to be used.

25 Everything is regulated by the rules as to how decision are made.

Page 4067

1 Members of the command can make proposals depending on the subject matter

2 involved, or rather, the type of task that is to be carried out.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness. I'm not interested in the

4 rules. I'm interested in knowing how did it apply in practice.

5 A. The command of the corps worked in accordance with the rules;

6 that is to say, how it was envisaged to make decisions. And the

7 participation of assistant commanders and the Chief of Staff was there,

8 according to the rules, in terms of the commander's decision. It also

9 depended on the situation on the ground, how decisions would be made.

10 Only the most important officers would be invited for a meeting or

11 the entire command, if the situation made that possible. He made

12 decisions on the basis of positions, or rather, proposals made by those

13 officers who were either assistant commanders or the Chief of Staff,

14 himself, so it depended on the proposals made.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me put my question in a different way then.

16 Did you ever, during your participation in the collegium meetings, hear

17 the corps commander informing you about orders that you had received from

18 the Supreme Command and the corps commanders decision as to how he would

19 implement such orders? Did you ever witness that? Yes or no.

20 A. Yes. That is the way things are done. It's customary; it's

21 normal. There is not much dilemma there.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. So my question was: Could you please

23 explain to us or give an example of an order that had been received from

24 the Supreme Command to the corps and how the corps commander then

25 implemented those orders into practice?

Page 4068

1 A. I assume that you are interested in the procedure itself. The

2 corps commander, when he receives an order, presents that to the first

3 meeting of the collegium that is held --

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have already told you, Mr. Witness, that I'm not

5 particularly interested in the what the rules said. I'm interested in

6 hearing an example of an order that was given by General Mladic to the

7 corps and knowing just how the accused implemented that order into

8 practice; a concrete example. You have told us previously that you did

9 witness such cases, and I would like you to explain to me an example of

10 what happened.

11 A. Well, I cannot give you an example because I'm trying to explain

12 how these things are done. As assistant commander for morale, I would get

13 a task from the corps commander from the field of morale what kind of

14 proposal -- or rather, in relation to this task what my proposal would be

15 in terms of carrying out that task in the best possible way. That is the

16 procedure involved. As for a concrete example, I cannot recall right now,

17 only if...

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's move on to something else.

19 I would like to discuss with you something that you mentioned

20 during examination-in-chief yesterday; the use of modified air bombs. And

21 I think that you told us yesterday that you knew that such bombs were

22 being used, and I think you also said that they were being used by your

23 side as well as by the BiH side.

24 Now, my question relates to your evaluation of the lawfulness of

25 the use of such modified air bombs. You were in charge of legal affairs,

Page 4069

1 among other things, and I suppose that the lawfulness of the use of such

2 weapons is something that you would have discussed.

3 So my first question is: What was your evaluation of the use of

4 modified air bombs, of the lawfulness under international humanitarian

5 law.

6 A. My view is that air bombs are a normal weapon in the air force.

7 They had their exact purpose in terms of what they were being used for, so

8 I believe that this type of weapon is permitted. I just know of air bombs

9 that were used, because that was my own line of work at the beginning of

10 my career. Specifically, I don't know -- I mean, I never saw this other

11 way of using them, how these air bombs were used. I'm not aware of that,

12 so I cannot tell you exactly whether it is permissible or not.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I realise that have you not seen it or expressed

14 any opinion on it, but you -- I think you said that you had heard about

15 such bombs being used in -- from the ground; that is to say, that they are

16 being launched with rocket launchers in a modified way. That's why we

17 call them modified air bombs. So you had heard about them; is that

18 correct?

19 A. This description that you gave just now as to what this looks like

20 is something that I first heard during my interview with the investigator;

21 that is to say, on the 3rd of August last year. They actually told me

22 what this was like. That was the first time I learned about this, from

23 them, how these bombs are modified and how they were launched. I

24 personally had never seen this weapon being used in that way, as in land

25 launched.

Page 4070

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Given the fact that you were the chief of legal

2 affairs in the corps, my question to you is whether you would have been

3 consulted prior to the use of any such weapons? Let us assume that the

4 question had arisen to use such weapon, and my question is would you then

5 have been consulted about the lawfulness thereof?

6 A. I properly would not have been consulted on that because I'm not a

7 legal man myself. I'm not a legal expert.

8 I already explained that from a military point of view. The legal

9 department belonged to my organ in terms of discipline, issuing orders,

10 and so on. However, as for the professional side of lawyers' business, I

11 could not interfere in that because I don't have proper qualifications for

12 that.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand that you yourself probably would not

14 be consulted because you had no expertise in such matters. But your

15 function, if I understand your position correctly, was to handle through

16 the people working for you in your departments matters of -- of various

17 questions, including legal questions. So if there were a question

18 relating to the lawfulness of the use of a particular weapon, would that

19 not have been discussed with someone in your department through you?

20 A. Well, such a question was not raised at all, therefore, it was not

21 discussed.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, to follow up on this

24 series of questions put to you by my colleague, I remember that yesterday

25 you said that the army of the Republika Srpska, as well as the ABiH army

Page 4071

1 on the Muslim side, had inherited the weapons of the JNA, the former

2 Yugoslav army, and the weapons were located on both sides. And if I

3 remember correctly, you mentioned the these air bombs as being part of

4 these weapons.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. So normally speaking,

7 and according to your statement, one could well imagine that on the Serb

8 side, as well as on the Muslim side, one could actually use such bombs or

9 make use of such bombs. Now, you were the commander's assistant, and I'm

10 talking about the commander of the SRK.

11 According to you, what you thus inherited; namely, these air

12 bombs, did you actually make use of these weapons? I'm putting the

13 question to you as the assistant to the commander. Were you aware of the

14 use of these weapons or not at all?

15 A. I hope that I understood you well. The weapons that was at the

16 disposal were being used.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Including the air bombs?

18 A. Including air bombs; in other words, everything that could be used

19 in combat and which was in the depots and storehouses in the area

20 controlled by either warring party. It is only natural for them or us to

21 use these weapons, because these were resources meant to be used for

22 warfare.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This is my last question. Can you

24 confirm, as all the weapons were used, that these air bombs that you used

25 were used solely by the air force, as you have just said; in other words,

Page 4072

1 no modified air bombs were used.

2 A. Are you referring to the pre-war period? As far as I know, there

3 were only air bombs that were dropped from aircraft. That's my knowledge.

4 I don't know whether there were other types of bombs such as modified

5 bombs. I know nothing about that.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, I was about to dismiss the witness,

9 but I see you're on your feet.

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I have one or two questions which arise

11 out of questions by the Bench.

12 I don't know if you will permit me to ask them, but it's been the

13 practice in other courtrooms when the Judges touch on areas and there are

14 question that arise from that, the parties are permitted.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us see, maybe it is the same thing that

16 has been exercised in my mind, but let me hear from Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that that would be an

18 endless circle, and it would be contrary to the rules of this Tribunal.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, not really, Mr. Tapuskovic, if you are also

20 given a chance to clarify any matter that arises. If I give the

21 Prosecutor a chance to ask questions arising out of the Judge's

22 questioning, I would also afford you the same opportunity. So there would

23 be no prejudice.

24 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4073

1 Further Re-examination by Mr. Whiting:

2 Q. First, I just want to see if I understood an answer that you gave,

3 if I understood it correctly to the Judges' question. Is it your

4 testimony that the first time you heard about modified air bombs, as

5 opposed to air bombs, was in August of 2006?

6 A. No. That was when I first was given a description of this type of

7 weapon by the investigators. They described to me how it looked like, and

8 it is true that I personally had never before seen this kind of weapon.

9 Q. But had you before heard about this kind of weapon?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was a modified air bomb a weapon that was used by the SRK

12 during the time that you were assistant commander for morale, religion,

13 and legal affairs?

14 A. Also during the interview with the investigator, I also heard for

15 the first time that allegedly the radio television building had been

16 targeted by a modified air bomb. That's what I was told on that occasion.

17 Q. With respect, I don't think that was an answer to the question.

18 The question was: Was a modified air bomb a weapon that was used by the

19 SRK during the time that you were assistant commander?

20 A. I personally don't know specifically whether the SRK used these

21 modified bombs. I suppose that there are documents showing this, and that

22 it's something that can be found out. I personally never witnessed this

23 kind of operation; therefore, I'm unable to confirm that.

24 Q. You say you never witnessed it. Did you ever hear about it?

25 A. Yes, I did hear about air bombs.

Page 4074

1 Q. No. Did --

2 A. -- an abbreviation.

3 Q. I really want to be precise here. Did you ever hear about

4 modified air bombs being used by the SRK.

5 A. I never heard this term "modified." What I heard was that air

6 bombs were being used. That's what I heard.

7 Q. And when you heard about air bombs being used, how were they being

8 used? Were they being launched from the ground, or were they being

9 dropped by airplanes?

10 A. I already said that during the interview with the investigators, I

11 heard for the first time that they had been launched from the ground. I

12 wasn't familiar with that kind of weapons or the mode of its use, and I

13 still don't know anything about it. That's when I heard for the first

14 time that this bomb was being launched from the ground.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, I'm not going to allow to you go any

16 further because you're coming close to cross-examining your own witness.

17 MR. WHITING: I think I'm just trying to get a clear answer to my

18 question. I don't think --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe it is -- I believe it is sufficiently

20 clear.

21 What I'd like to find out is whether he had also heard of the same

22 modified air bombs being used by the ABiH.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I had never heard this term

24 "modified" until my interview with the investigators. All I have ever

25 heard before was about air bombs and their usage.

Page 4075

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, questions?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly. Thank you, Your

4 Honours.

5 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dragicevic, before you became the assistant

7 commander for morale, religion, and legal affairs, and that happened on

8 the 22nd of November, as we heard before, you were aware that both parties

9 had modified air bombs at their disposal and that they had acquired them

10 at the beginning of the war? Yes or no.

11 A. I already said as far as weapons and everything else was

12 concerned, both parties had at their disposal what was available in the

13 area under their control.

14 Q. Thank you. And you also know that until you assumed your duties,

15 and especially during the period where there was no no-fly zone imposed,

16 that these bombs, air bombs were being used by both sides because they had

17 aircrafts, they had helicopters, and things like that; and after that, a

18 no-fly zone was imposed, especially on the Serbian side? Yes or no.

19 A. Of course, it was only natural for them to use them because this

20 kind of weaponry was legitimate, and they used it depending on the type of

21 targets they wished to engage.

22 Q. After the decision to impose a no-fly zone over Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 WAS taken, and at least we can say that about the Serbian side, they were

24 no longer able to use these air bombs that they had and kept for

25 themselves after the departure of the JNA?

Page 4076

1 A. Yes. Of course, if planes are not flying, these bombs cannot be

2 dropped.

3 Q. Towards the end of April and early May, when BiH army offensive

4 was expected to be launched, we discussed yesterday the decision. Do you

5 stand by it, that the decision was taken to give permission to use the

6 weapons that the Serbian army -- Bosnian Serbian army had, could be used

7 only after an attack began? Yes or no.

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters didn't

10 hear the answer that the witness gave.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the answer that you gave to that

12 question, Colonel? The interpreter didn't hear.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


15 Colonel, that concludes your testimony. We thank you for come

16 together Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the next witness is?

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, Ms. Edgerton will be handling the next

21 witness. It's Mr. Karavelic. We will require a bit of a line change here

22 on our team.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

24 MR. WHITING: And I think Mr. Docherty would like to be excused.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may be excused.

Page 4077

1 MR. WHITING: This is not our next witness.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

9 And you may begin, Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just before I begin, I

11 wonder if Mr. Usher, when he has a moment, could have the tripod with the

12 maps brought over to be beside the General. And while Mr. Usher is doing

13 that, I'm able to deal with the statements, testimonies, and documents

14 which were the subject of the Trial Chamber's order on 22nd February.

15 Before I do that, could I just ask, sir, do you have your reading

16 glasses with you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Excellent. Thank you.

19 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

20 Q. Could you tell us your name, please, and your present occupation.

21 A. My name is Vahid Karavelic. Three years ago I retired. Up until

22 then, I was a member of the army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 In these last three years, I have been engaged in different things, among

24 other things, I work part-time for a company. I'm writing books,

25 studying, et cetera.

Page 4078

1 Q. Could you tells us at what rank you retired from the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. I retired with a rank of Major-General.

4 Q. Now, in preparation for your testimony here today, did you have an

5 opportunity to review two of your statements to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor; one dated November 2nd, 2001, and that's, for the record, ter

7 number 03046, and the second dated 18 August 2006, and that's ter number

8 03047.

9 General, did you have an opportunity to review these two

10 statements in your own language?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Now, do you, following that review, have any additions, deletions,

13 or other changes that you wish to make to shows statements?

14 A. No, nothing in particular.

15 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were asked

16 at the time, would your testimony on those matters be the same as what is

17 set out in those two statements?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, Your Honours, could I ask that

20 the first statement dated 2nd November 2001, ter number 03046, be admitted

21 as an exhibit.


23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P492, Your

24 Honours.

25 MS EDGERTON: And then the second statement, as well, please,

Page 4079

1 dated 18th August 2006, ter number 03047.


3 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be P493, Your Honours.


5 Q. Now, General, turning to two of your previous appearances before

6 other Trial Chambers of this Tribunal, have you listened to your

7 testimonies in the proceedings against General Galic and General

8 Hadzihasanovic in your own language?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today during your

11 testimony, would your answers be the same?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, then, Your Honours, could I

14 ask the following be entered as the next exhibits. Again, pursuant to

15 Your Honour's order of 22 February, ter number 03048 A to K; 03049 A to L;

16 and 030350 A to K, those are the pages for the General' testimony in the

17 Galic proceedings. If they could be entered as the next exhibit, Your

18 Honour. And I would think that despite the fact they have separate ter

19 numbers, they could be entered as one exhibit.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit them.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these will be admitted together at

23 P494.

24 MS. EDGERTON: And with respect to the Hadzihasanovic testimony,

25 the ter numbers are 03051 A to G; 03052 A; a 03053 A to F. If those could

Page 4080

1 be given an exhibit number, please.


3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these will be admitted as P495.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Finally, as part of our tender and, again, pursuant

5 to the order, I would like to ask about the associated exhibits referred

6 to in the decision; ter number 02106, 02248, and 02777, all of which are

7 dealt with in great detail in the statements and transcripts already

8 exhibited. And in the Prosecution's appendix to our motion for their

9 admission, we of course directed the Trial Chamber to the relevant pages

10 of the statements and transcripts.

11 Could I ask that they also be given exhibit numbers; and three

12 separate, please. Those are three quite distinct documents.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just tell us what these are.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, and I can do that. I

16 just have to make sure that I'm referring to the appropriate ter numbers,

17 Your Honours. 02248 is a document dated 16 March 1995; an UNMO report on

18 having heard a SRK officer say they will shoot women and children, and it

19 was described a referred to by the witness in his statement dated 18

20 August 2006 at page 7. That's the first one.

21 2106 is a document dated 7 November 1994; a certified copy of a

22 telegram from the VRS Main Staff from General Mladic instructing or

23 forbidding any activities in connection with the blockade of UNPROFOR and

24 confiscation of heavy weapons under their supervision, planning or

25 conducting any offensive combat activities, and the use of weapons of

Page 4081

1 bigger calibre on civilian targets in Sarajevo, forbidding these

2 activities from being conducted without his express approval. And that's

3 referred to in the witness' statement dated 18 August 2006 at page 3 of

4 the English version.

5 And 2777, the last one, is a map of Sarajevo that was prepared by

6 the General and is described in his testimony in the Galic proceedings at

7 page 11796 to 11806.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just remind us of the evidential basis

10 for the admission of these documents, Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, these documents were already admitted

12 by decision -- by the decision of 22nd February, and I have a copy of the

13 decision available for Your Honours, if that assists.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what are you seeking to do now.

15 MS. EDGERTON: To have exhibit numbers assigned to each of these

16 last three documents; no more.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see.

18 Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's all right. I know it was a

20 huge binder containing hundreds of documents, but now I understand what it

21 is all about, that two or three documents are now being introduced from

22 this whole bunch of documents, and it's all right.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if Mr. Tapuskovic gives his blessing, we

24 can go ahead. Let's have them numbered --

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honours. All I'm

Page 4082

1 saying is that I understand what the Prosecutor is talking about. But I

2 understand with the question that you asked is the relevance, and that's

3 what I would like the Prosecutor to explain.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just -- she did give an explanation, and I

5 believe that that certainly shows their relevance. Please have them

6 numbered.

7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 02106 becomes P496; 65 ter 02248 becomes

8 P497; and 65 ter number 02777 becomes P498.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now if we could move forward.

10 Q. General, in the 2001 statement, page 14, the last paragraph on

11 page 14 and the first paragraph at the top of page 15 and page 16 of the

12 Bosnian version, you refer to your relationship or the relationship with

13 the MUP. In that paragraph, you explain the corps level procedure you

14 would go through if circumstances called for MUP support to the 1st Corps.

15 Now, would you, relating to that paragraph, would you or did you

16 know anything about the composition of whatever unit you might receive

17 from the MUP, what branches of the police service they might have been

18 drawn from?

19 A. The army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the civilian

20 police were two separate entities. Speaking specifically about my own

21 corps, it did cooperate with the civilian police in Sarajevo. When a unit

22 would be received by way of assistance in certain situations, whenever I

23 got support, assistance from the civilian police, I would always get a

24 particular police unit, a unit as a unit. I was never interested and I

25 did not know what the composition of that particular unit was.

Page 4083

1 Q. So, if I can follow up with that answer, because I note you

2 referred to civilian police, but, General, were there not several branches

3 of the police forces in Sarajevo; the special police, the civilian police,

4 the criminal police, and indeed your own military police?

5 A. When I say "civilian police," I'm referring to the overall police

6 force outside military structures.

7 Q. So my -- my simple question then is: When you got a unit, do you

8 know what branches of the police that unit might have come from, whether

9 they might have come from the special police or the civilian police or any

10 other arm of the police?

11 A. I have already given an answer to that. I did not know.

12 Q. Thank you. Now during 1994 and 1995, do you recall how many times

13 you were required to make this corps level special request for MUP

14 support?

15 A. That happened a few times. I cannot say exactly what the number

16 was.

17 Q. Was it something more than five, or less; do you recall?

18 A. I think it was up to five.

19 Q. Do you recall the circumstances, what those units might have been

20 used for?

21 A. I recall a few particular sets of circumstances. I don't remember

22 if I will be able to recall all.

23 For instance, the circumstance of assisting in holding the defence

24 line in front of Grbavica, in the centre of town; then when carrying out

25 offensive combat action, at least once in 1994 and in 1995 at the southern

Page 4084

1 outskirts of the town of Sarajevo, Igman, Bijeljina, and Treskavica, that

2 is.

3 Q. Now, with respect to the first instances you mentioned, holding

4 the defence line in front of Grbavica, do you recall over what period of

5 time that took place, how long that unit was on duty for?

6 A. I cannot give you the exact time. At any rate, it wasn't less

7 than a few months, and I don't think it was more than a year.

8 Q. And with respect to the instances, the single instance in 1994 and

9 the instance in 1995, how long did you require MUP units for?

10 A. In these other situations, for as long as the combat task lasted;

11 on average, it was ten, 15, to 20 days.

12 Q. Thank you. Now to go towards your Galic testimony, you said at

13 page 1178 that reserve police were never used as combatants.

14 Now, in relation to the use of police as combatants by officers of

15 your corps, I wonder if I could ask for Exhibit D61, which has been marked

16 for identification, to be brought up on the screen.

17 General, do you see a document on the screen before you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, this document in the first paragraph refers to agreement of 2

20 July 1995 between the Main Staff commander and the Minister of the

21 Internal Affairs aimed at the defence of the town of Sarajevo, and talks

22 specifically in -- of the engagement of MUP units in paragraph 1. Is this

23 document accurate?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. Are you familiar with the agreement that the document refers to?

Page 4085

1 A. I remember these agreements, and I was involved in it myself.

2 Q. Can you tell us what exactly the agreement was, General?

3 A. Well, the result of that agreement was that during the course of

4 1992 and 1993, particularly in the beginning --

5 Q. Sorry, General. I was referring to the agreement that this

6 document refers to, 2nd July 1995.

7 A. The aim of this agreement was exclusively to simplify the use of

8 units; that is to say, police from police stations, from local level, from

9 municipal level, that is, for the needs of the brigades of my corps. That

10 is why this agreement was made, and it has to do with the following.

11 If there is a crisis and if the defence line is under threat in

12 the case of a particular brigade, then this order and agreement would make

13 it possible for the commander of that same brigade to turn to the head of

14 the police administration in that municipality and that a number of

15 policemen from that municipality would come to assist the threatened

16 defence line.

17 I would like to point out that this could be done without carrying

18 out the entire procedure. The entire procedure, if I can talk about that

19 now, would mean that the brigade commander would have to ask his own

20 division commander to give him authority to use the police. He'd ask me

21 in turn and I would have to ask the army commander and then they would

22 have to ask the Supreme Command and then the Supreme Command would have to

23 order that to the Minister of the Interior and then the Minister of the

24 Interior would have to work done his own chain so that this local police

25 could help the brigade on the defence line. The aim of this agreement was

Page 4086

1 to avoid that long chain.

2 Q. Now, just with respect to this agreement, did that, General,

3 pertain to the use of police in combat or in defence?

4 A. In defence. And that's what it says here; defence only.

5 Q. Now, moving on to another area, General, in your position as corps

6 commander, could you tell us what information you would receive about

7 opposing forces?

8 A. I received different kinds of information. But in my work, I

9 relied on receiving information from our official legal services; that is

10 to say, from our official organs. I received information from two

11 directions: Information upwards, in terms of my own chain of command, and

12 I received information from services and organs of my superior command.

13 I would receive information certainly about overall activities of

14 the aggressor forces, about their movements, about their intentions, about

15 what they did, about their armaments and equipment, about their

16 deployment, and so on and so forth.

17 Q. Now, did you also receive information about the targeting of

18 civilians on Bosnian-held territory, the targeting of civilians by

19 sniping?

20 A. Yes, I did. I did receive information of that type as well.

21 Q. Would those reports and -- would you have received information

22 about the location of the origin of fire sniper shots?

23 A. For the most part, yes.

24 Q. And if I can just clarify one thing. For the greater part of the

25 war your command headquarters was in fact in the city of Sarajevo as well.

Page 4087

1 Isn't that the case?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. So in paragraph 11 of your 2001 statement, and paragraph 42 of

4 your 2006 statement, you talk about where snipers were stationed. Is that

5 information on the basis of both reports that you received from your staff

6 and military organs and your own personal observations and experiences?

7 A. Precisely.

8 Q. Now, you refer --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to object. I think that

11 these are leading questions, but it is for you to judge.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Had you asked first, Ms. Edgerton, about the

13 reports that he received from his staff and military organs, you had not

14 asked about that first. Well, you should have. So in future, please

15 ensure no leading questions.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I'll do my best, Your Honour, and apologies.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have to do more than your best. It's

18 just not permissible. The evidence is, in fact, valueless when you lead,

19 because it means that it is coming from you, not from the witness.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, Your Honour.

21 Q. General, you refer in your statement to some permanent sniper

22 positions. Could you tell the Trial Chamber which positions you're

23 referring to when you describe those?

24 A. Of course, I can. We used this jargon, "sniper, sniper, sniper,"

25 but it's not only snipers that were killing in Sarajevo. Many other

Page 4088

1 weapons in addition to snipers can also target as precisely as snipers,

2 but snipers are invariably mentioned.

3 And there were these locations that throughout the war were there

4 constantly located in terms of these points from where the population of

5 the city was being killed all the time. I can refer to a few of them,

6 although they did exist throughout the defence line in the town of

7 Sarajevo.

8 A boarder location is -- from which there was a lot of targeting

9 was the area of Debelo Brdo, or rather, the Jewish cemetery, as one area.

10 Another location is the curve of a road, the road between Lukavica and

11 Pale above Skenderija, precisely above Debelo Brdo. The next location is

12 the broader area of Grdonje, or Spicasta Stijena; then the location at

13 Grbavica, the four sky-scrapers that were a source of danger throughout

14 the war for the town of Sarajevo...

15 [Technical Difficulty]

16 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should explain for the benefit of the record

19 that we broke earlier because of the technical problem, but that has been

20 fixed and you're now ready to continue.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

23 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Before I go further I see that I omitted to -- with respect to the

25 Exhibit D61, it was previously marked for identification, and I omitted to

Page 4089

1 have it tendered now that the witness has spoken to it. I would ask it no

2 longer be marked for identification.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let it be given a number.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Precisely, yes. It will keep the MFI number

6 without the MFI.


8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that then will become D61.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

10 Q. Now, General, when we broke, we were discussing -- you had

11 identified a number of permanent sniper locations by name, and if I could

12 ask you a couple of things with respect to the locations you mentioned,

13 Debelo Brdo; the curve of the road between Lukavica and Pale, above

14 Skenderija; the border area of Grdonj on Spicasta Stijena; four

15 sky-scrapers at Grbavica. Were all of these locations on -- were these

16 locations on Bosnian-held territory or Serb-held territory?

17 A. Territory that was under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija

18 Corps.

19 Q. Now, with respect to the area of Debelo Brdo, the Jewish cemetery,

20 and the curve of the road, were there areas of Bosnian-held territory

21 particularly vulnerable to sniper fire from those locations?

22 A. Yes, because those locations are very close to the centre of town.

23 Q. And with respect to the area of Grdonj and Spicasta Stijena, were

24 there areas of Bosnian-held territory which were particularly vulnerable

25 from that location?

Page 4090

1 A. Those areas were not under the control of the my corps. They were

2 under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as well, except that is

3 on the other side of town. That point was also very close to the centre

4 of town; and from that point, one could observe and cover, if I can put it

5 that way, almost all of the municipality of Stari Grad and the

6 municipality of Centar.

7 Q. And, finally, with respect to the four sky-scrapers at Grbavica,

8 were there areas of Bosnian-held territory which were vulnerable to sniper

9 fire from those locations?

10 A. As for these four sky-scrapers, they were also under the control

11 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, on the left bank of the Miljacka river, on

12 Grbavica. Actually, from there a large part of the centre of the town,

13 Sarajevo was covered from there; that is to say, from those four

14 sky-scrapers. And in that way one could cut across town itself from the

15 assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina or from the Marshal Tito barracks or the

16 museum, all of that is the broader area; and then to the east and then to

17 the west, all the way to Cengic Vila.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, if I could ask you, General, to turn to map on

19 the left-hand side beside you and perhaps have the camera focus on that

20 map, and for the record that map bears the ter number 02927.

21 Could you just point out on the map, please, the area that you

22 were referring to as the Debelo Brdo-Jewish cemetery area when you

23 described a permanent sniper location?

24 A. The area of Debelo Brdo and the Jewish cemetery is here.

25 Q. Now --

Page 4091

1 A. The area of the curve of the road --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the accused,

4 Dragomir Milosevic, would have to be able to see what the witness is

5 pointing at. He cannot see the map. He absolutely cannot see the

6 locations pointed out by the witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, can we have the map turned in such a way as

8 to enable the accused to see it.

9 MS. EDGERTON: If I could assist, if the accused looks at his

10 e-court monitor, he should be able to see a blow-up portion of the map

11 that the witness has just pointed it now. It's been magnified to a large

12 extent.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that? Mr. Milosevic, did you hear

14 that? If you look, Mr. Milosevic. Yes, please look at the e-court map,

15 which has been magnified.

16 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, the magnification that appears

17 on the screen bears the ter number 02927C.

18 Q. Now, General, you had almost pointed out, as far as I could see,

19 the location of the curve on the road to Pale. Could you show us that

20 again?

21 A. The other area, the other location is precisely this curve above

22 town, in this area.

23 Q. Now, General, if I could ask you to turn to the screen, the

24 monitor in front of you, the computer monitor in front of you, this --

25 could you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not you see the confrontation

Page 4092

1 lines represented on this map?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Now, over the course of your tour of duty as corps commander, did

4 you -- were you familiar with the perimeter of the confrontation line

5 around Sarajevo? Did you become familiar with it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you're familiar with this particular location as depicted?

8 A. I was familiar with many locations, not to say all of them, but

9 this one in particular.

10 Q. Now, is the front line as it's represented on this map, to the

11 best of your recollection, accurate?

12 A. Generally speaking, one might say that it's accurate. However, in

13 several locations and points, there are certain points actually that are

14 not depicted properly on the defence line; in other words, they are shown

15 incorrectly.

16 Q. General, could I then invite you to take the electronic marking

17 tool from the monitor to the right of you and make the corrections on the

18 map in front of you to reflect what you understood the front lines to be

19 in 1994/1995.

20 A. Specifically, here at Debelo Brdo, this blue line runs directly

21 through Debelo Brdo which makes it appear that practically my corps held

22 the peak of Debelo Brdo, which is not true. This line should

23 approximately go like this, as I just drew it.

24 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, then, the witness has made a bright

25 blue line, which he has indicated reflects -- accurately reflects the

Page 4093

1 confrontation line in 1994/1995 at the location of Debelo Brdo.

2 Q. Are there any other corrections you wish to make on the front line

3 as depicted on this map, then, General?

4 A. When I looked at this map, I noticed a couple of places;

5 specifically, Spicasta Stijena and Grdonj.

6 Q. That being the case, with respect to this particular image then,

7 could I ask 02927C be tendered as an exhibit.


9 THE REGISTRAR: As P499, Your Honours.

10 MS. EDGERTON: As the General has mentioned Spicasta Stijena,

11 perhaps we could have a further image on the monitor, 02927B.

12 Q. Perhaps, while we're waiting, General, I could ask you the

13 following question: Could you tell us what the situation was on Spicasta

14 Stijena?

15 A. The situation at Spicasta Stijena was approximately the following:

16 Since the beginning, until the end of the war, Spicasta Stijena was being

17 held by the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. From the outset of the

18 war, until the last day of the war, they saw death over the city of

19 Sarajevo from Spicasta Stijena from various kinds of weapons.

20 It is a dominant point above the entire out town and the

21 municipality of Centar. It is an excellent vantage point and offers a

22 perfect view of the area. There is a densely populated area immediately

23 below Spicasta Stijena; and in front of it, there's a vertical stone wall

24 which provided a very solid defence because it's very difficult to access

25 it from the front side.

Page 4094

1 Q. Sorry, General. If I could stop you there and ask you to look at

2 the image on the monitor in front of you. You've just spoken of a

3 vertical stone wall. Do you see the area on -- first of all, could you

4 indicate for the Trial Chamber the elevation of Spicasta Stijena, if you

5 see it on the map in front of you.

6 A. You mean with respect to the first neighbourhood next to it or

7 what? The elevation is 895 metres. It's a TT point.

8 Q. With respect to the peak of the elevation, please.

9 A. This triangle which I marked with a red dot is the elevation

10 point.

11 Q. Could you please put a small number 1 beside that.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Now, you've indicated the presence of a stone wall which provided

14 a very solid defence. Could you indicate -- are you able to indicate the

15 area where the stone wall was?

16 A. Precisely to the south, below this red point, you can see a very

17 many contours close to one another. Between this red line and the blue

18 line there are many contours which indicates that it's a very sharp, steep

19 terrain, almost vertical.

20 Q. Now, could you tell us the approximate distance between the

21 elevation of Spicasta Stijena and Grdonj?

22 A. The map shows this clearly. It's between 300 and 500 metres.

23 Let's say no more than 500 metres.

24 Q. And do you -- no more than 500 metres in which direction, please?

25 A. Towards east.

Page 4095

1 Q. Thank you. And the front line as it's represented here on this

2 map, is that, to the best of your recollection, accurate?

3 A. It's somewhat different, what I can see in this map, and if I may

4 draw ...

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, counsel. While we're waiting for the

6 witness's clarification, I think the witness said that Grdonj would be 500

7 metres to the east of Spicasta Stijena. On my map at least I have it

8 south-west. Could you please ask the witness to clarify whether the

9 indication is correct.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours.

11 Q. General, you have indeed indicated that Grdonj lay between 300 and

12 500 metres to the east of Spicasta Stijena. Now if this map is properly

13 oriented did Grdonj lie indeed to the east or to the west of Spicasta

14 Stijena?

15 A. I understood the question properly, and that is where Spicasta

16 Stijena was with respect to Grdonj. With respect to Grdonj, Spicasta

17 Stijena is to the east, or more precisely, north-easterly direction, 500

18 metres.

19 Q. Thank you.


21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, obviously something

22 is unclear here and needs to be clarified.

23 We need to specify these elevation of Grdonj and the height of

24 Spicasta Stijena. As far as I can see, Grdonj is indeed to the east from

25 Spicasta Stijena. If one reads a map and we need to clarify this.

Page 4096

1 Grdonj 906 metres at Spicasta; Stijena 895 metres; and Grdonj is to the

2 east of Spicasta Stijena. It cannot be to the west at all. If you take a

3 look, I'm not an expert, but that much I can understand.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I think the Witness was abundantly

5 clear when he finally specified that with respect to Grdonj, Spicasta

6 Stijena is in a north-easterly direction 500 metres and if my learned

7 friend is asking a question of the witness to specify what the various

8 elevations of these heights are, according to meters I would suggest that

9 might be a question he can nut his cross-examination.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes that is always open to Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 Let us move on.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. For the record the witness has drawn a

13 blue line indicating accurately the -- in his submission the confrontation

14 line and where it lies between 1994 and 1995. I would ask that that be

15 tendered or marked as the next exhibit, please.


17 MS. EDGERTON: 02927B, that is.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that becomes Exhibit P500.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, witness --

21 A. And the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps forces were deployed in a

22 different way, not as the map is showing.

23 Q. Perhaps then if the P500 could remain on the screen and he

24 could -- the witness could, since he wishes to make a correction, correct

25 P500 we could then have it marked as a further exhibit.

Page 4097


2 MS. EDGERTON: Now, for the record, with a red line the witness

3 has marked the accurate disposition, in his view, of the Sarajevo-Romanija

4 Corps forces at Spicasta Stijena. Perhaps I could ask that be marked as

5 P501.


7 MS. EDGERTON: Now -- oh.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if possible, we can just keep all of

9 these markings together as P500.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Fine. I didn't realise that was possible. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll do that.


14 Q. General, if I could ask you to just turn back to the map on the

15 board in behind you and look generally at the front line as it's depicted

16 on this map. Generally speaking, with the exceptions of the corrections

17 that you have indicated, is this front line, does it accurately represent

18 the front line as you understood it to be in 1994 and 1995, again,

19 generally speaking?

20 A. Yes, generally speaking. But in certain aspects, it's not very

21 accurate.

22 Q. What would those aspects be, sir?

23 A. I can give you other deviations and mistakes that I myself

24 detected because this map was made by staff officers who did it in haste

25 and didn't care too much about accuracy. This kind of map needs to be

Page 4098

1 done with very thin felt-point pens. I can give you further examples of

2 the mistakes that I noticed, although I myself don't know everything

3 either.

4 Q. Could you describe to us some deviations you wish to clarify,

5 please?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: He should tell us where he is pointing to.


8 Q. Yes, please.

9 A. One of the deviations is in the eastern parts. This is not where

10 my lines were. They were not so much forward. They were more to the

11 backward -- to 100 to 200 metres backward. I'm talking about this area

12 here.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Now, can I, just for the record, indicate that the

14 witness is referring to the confrontation line which lies, as the map

15 goes, to the east of the designation "152 Brigade."

16 Q. Please go on, sir.

17 A. Next in the north-west part where I'm pointing now, in this area

18 as well, my lines were not so much forward. They were also more to the

19 back by 100 to 200 metres.

20 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, the witness has pointed to the area

21 of Rajlovac and indicated the line should be redrawn roughly across

22 lettering that reads "3-BB" to the east of Rajlovac.

23 Q. Now, sir, I note that this map indicates some placement or

24 disposition of armament within the area of Sarajevo.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. May I just ask the witness

Page 4099

1 whether there was any particular reason why his line was not more forward

2 in that particular area?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Due to poorly qualified and

4 incompetent officers who did this.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. I didn't mean the actual drawing. What

6 you have said is that your line was not where it is indicated on the map

7 but some 200 to 300 metres back. And I wanted to find out if there was a

8 particular reason why your line was where it actually was. In particular,

9 was there any military reason why your line was there?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood the question

11 correctly, here, in the western, or rather, eastern part of the city of

12 Sarajevo, huge area are clear -- or there are huge clearings and I had to

13 withdraw into the depth in order to be on the rear ridge and be protected

14 and camouflaged as much as possible. That was the only way to survive and

15 sustain in these places.

16 In this area here, the line has gone too much into the plain or

17 the valley. This flat terrain does not offer good opportunity for

18 fighting against the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I had to adhere to natural

19 features that were helpful in my defence. That is why it was more logical

20 to have the line on the slopes. And from this point on, the terrain is

21 going upwards or ascending.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the explanation.


24 Q. Now, sir, I note on this map there is some -- this maps denotes

25 some disposition of weapons throughout the inner area of Sarajevo. You

Page 4100

1 have already indicated that this map was prepared by officers of your

2 division. So perhaps you're in a position to answer this.

3 Are you aware, sir, how long the disposition of armament in a map

4 like this would be effective for?

5 A. I can speak in general terms. No disposition of armament inside

6 the city of Sarajevo did -- should not have been longer in terms of its

7 remaining on a certain firing position and that involves seven, eight,

8 maximum 15 days. Sometimes positions -- firing positions had to be

9 changed many times in a single day. It all depended on when it is going

10 to be spotted. Once it is spotted, it has to be shifted; otherwise, this

11 firing position have been destroyed by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

12 Q. Thank you. Could I ask that the map now receive an exhibit

13 number?


15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, will be P501.

16 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, that is ter number 02927.

17 Q. Now, General, we were speaking originally about sniping, and

18 perhaps for a brief period of time we could go back to that subject.

19 Based on your experience in Sarajevo, do you have an opinion as to

20 the level of skill or professionalism of snipers or sharpshooters under

21 the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

22 A. All I can say is this: During the war, or rather, in 1993, 1994,

23 and 1995, there was information and I received reports, and it -- I think

24 it can be found in many a report, and that was obvious the case that

25 special units and special groups of this or that sort used to come to take

Page 4101

1 part in attacks on Sarajevo.

2 They most -- in most cases, they came to Grbavica and were

3 billeted in the general area of Grbavica. Those special units were well

4 armed, well equipped, and well trained. There was a huge number of such

5 reports.

6 What I actually felt and experienced I can say that I had been

7 through a lot, but I cannot confirm whether this was the result of the

8 operation of these units specifically.

9 Q. Thank you for that answer. If I could go back to the original

10 question. I asked you about snipers or sharpshooters under the control of

11 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and your answer referred to special units.

12 So perhaps I could ask you now, two follow-up questions.

13 Do you have an opinion as to whether these special units were

14 under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. That's the first

15 question; and secondly could we go back to the original question to talk

16 about the level of skill and professionalism of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

17 snipers generally.

18 A. Irrespective of the fact whether these units were part of the

19 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, an inherent part, and even if they weren't they

20 had to be incorporated into the chain of command of the SRK. When you

21 have such units coming to the area it goes without saying that they are

22 excellently trained and prepared for waging a war.

23 Q. Thank you for that. Perhaps we'll move on now.

24 At page 12 of your statement in 2001, you referred to four main

25 VRS artillery positions which could reach any part of town. Could you

Page 4102

1 give us the names of the locations you were referring to.

2 A. The eastern part of town -- that is the general area of Hresa and

3 Borije, that's one area. To the north of the town -- the northern area,

4 was in Paljevac, and this map doesn't show this particular area. But

5 anyway, it refers to this general area that I'm just pointing with the

6 pointer.

7 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I'm sorry. General, we didn't get the name of

8 the area, the second area you were naming.

9 A. I cannot remember it either.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it Paljevac?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paljevac, and there is a hill also.


13 Q. Thank you. You have named two location and in your statement you

14 refer to four main VRS artillery positions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.


18 Q. Do you remember the other two you were thinking of when you

19 identified those four locations. Could you name the other two, please?

20 A. A third location is to the south -- no, excuse me, to the west, or

21 rather, north-west. And that's the area of Paljevo, all the way to

22 Hrasnica, and this area is here. And a fourth location is to the south of

23 the city of Sarajevo. That's the area of Toplik; this one that I'm

24 pointing now.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps, Mr. Usher, would be able to remove this

Page 4103

1 map and I'll ask the General to have a look at the map underneath and

2 meanwhile, if I could ask Mr. Registrar to call up image 02789C.

3 Q. General, perhaps this will make it easier for you. Could you turn

4 to the map that appears on the tripod behind you and tell us whether you

5 recognise or are able to tell us what this type of map is.

6 A. It's a topographic map in which the plan of operation of the

7 artillery of the SRK is being entered, or, rather its corps artillery

8 group as it was called.

9 Q. Now, if I could ask you to tell us whether you see those four

10 locations you have spoken about on this map that would be helpful. And in

11 fact, general, if you should turn to the monitor in front of you and you

12 should be seeing a close-up image from that map, and that might make it

13 easier for you and everyone in the court to see. Do you see the locations

14 that you were referring to on the image on the screen in front of you?

15 A. The first location that I mentioned is precisely -- shall I put a

16 circle?

17 Q. Yes, please, if you see it in front of you.

18 A. The first location that I mentioned is Hresa and Borije, and it's

19 here.

20 Q. Could you mark that first location with a number 1, please.

21 A. The second location, is in the area of Blagovac, which is here.

22 Q. Can you mark that with a number 2, please.

23 A. The third location is the area of Paljevo.

24 Q. Area of Paljevo is, for the record marked with a number 3.

25 A. And the fourth location is Toplik . That is the area here.

Page 4104

1 Q. Marked with the number 4. Now, General, could I ask you, over the

2 course of your military training did you receive any training in reading

3 and understanding maps like these?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you receive training in making maps like these?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then, General, are you able to explain to us what the markings of

8 squares are which appear scattered through the city of Sarajevo on this

9 map?

10 A. These small scares, or rather, rectangles denote the targets that

11 are planned for the purpose of this artillery that I marked with number 1,

12 in terms of the town of Sarajevo.

13 Q. Are you able to tell us perhaps what size of area those targets

14 purport to cover?

15 A. Most often, when such rectangles are placed, they denote an area

16 of 100 by 100 metres or 100 by 200 metres.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this marked as an exhibit, please,

18 02789C.


20 THE REGISTRAR: As P502, Your Honours.


22 Q. So, then, General, with regard to such maps and the notation of

23 targets on these maps, what are we to understand as to target selection?

24 Are targets for an operation determined usually in advance?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4105

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. EDGERTON: If I could also ask for the larger map, 02789, to

3 be marked as an exhibit, please.


5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P503.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Just if I could ask one further question with

7 respect to the text you see, General, on the image on the screen in front

8 you beside number 1, could you tell us what that text reads? Are you able

9 to read it?

10 MS. EDGERTON: Could it possibly be enlarged, Mr. Registrar?

11 A. Now I can see it.

12 Q. What does it say, sir?

13 A. What is says here in this one circle that denoted an artillery

14 firing position that in this firing position of Gnjilo Brdo, there is a

15 Howitzer of 122 millimetres, four pieces, then a squat of 150 millimetre

16 weaponry, one weapon. And the two pieces in terms of Howitzers of 122

17 millimetres were attached at Ponor in some other place, and it would

18 probably be returned subsequently, so there would be a total of six 122

19 millimetre Howitzers.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I wonder, Mr. Usher, if could you

21 remove this map so that the General can see the map below that. And,

22 Mr. Registrar, you could put the cutout 02788B on the monitor, please.

23 Q. General, could you turn to the map in behind you and tell us,

24 explain to us what this map is?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Note: The interpreter cannot hear

Page 4106

1 the speaker.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map shows planned targets for

3 artillery fire, different types of artillery fire, of the

4 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. In this part here against the town of Sarajevo

5 and in this area --

6 Q. I'm sorry, General. Could you tell us what you're pointing at,

7 please, when you say "this part here."

8 A. This area that I'm indicating now includes three firing positions

9 like in the previous brief map. That is the boarder area of Hresa and

10 Borije to the east of Sarajevo. And in this case, the planned targets

11 are --

12 MS. EDGERTON: Excuse me. For the record, the witness indicated a

13 larger circle on the map to the east of Sarajevo.

14 Q. Please continue.

15 A. From these firing positions, from Hresa and Borije to the east of

16 Sarajevo, fire was planned, or rather, targets for that artillery that was

17 to target the town of Sarajevo.

18 Q. General, could I ask you if you see a name on the top left-hand

19 corner of the map in front of you, top left-hand corner. Can you read the

20 name?

21 A. Yes, I can see it. "I approve commander, Major-General Stanislav

22 Galic," and there is a signature.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have to

25 object to this. We are dealing with the period of time between the 10th

Page 4107

1 of August and -- the 10th of August, 1994 and the 21st of November, 1995.

2 So I think it would be appropriate if that were to be discussed first,

3 whether all these maps date back to the time when Galic was commander.

4 I think that as for the period of time that we are dealing with,

5 these maps are not relevant. It is for you to assess whether we can deal

6 with that anyway.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the period of time that you're dealing

8 with, Ms. Edgerton?

9 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps, Your Honour, by asking one further

10 question of the witness, I can assist with respect to the relevance of

11 these maps and more particularly the locations he's identified as being

12 mortar -- sorry, firing positions.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what about the time-period, that will also

14 be clarified?

15 MS. EDGERTON: By asking the witness whose name appeared on that,

16 I was hoping that I was making the time-period within which we were

17 talking about quite obvious. This is a map dating from a period of time

18 of the tenure of the accused's predecessor.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're going to ask a question now which will

20 demonstrate the relevance.

21 MS. EDGERTON: I hope so, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us see.


24 Q. Now, General, you've talked and given us detail about four main

25 VRS artillery positions, which you originally referred to in your 2001

Page 4108

1 statement; in particular, one called Hresa Borije, which you have

2 identified on the map in front of you. Can you turn to the image that

3 appears on the screen in front of you as well. Do you see Hresa Borije on

4 the screen in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you indicate Hresa Borije.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Indicating with a circle, for the record, the

8 location of the area of Hresa Borije.

9 Q. Now, General, to the best of your recollection, was the firing

10 position that you've described in your statement -- were the firing

11 positions that you've described in your statement, as the four artillery

12 positions, were they permanent, or were they -- did they change? Did they

13 move?

14 A. For me, they were permanent in the area of Hresa Borije. Now,

15 whether they had several different shelters and moved from time to time

16 from one position to another, due to my occasional shelling, that is a

17 different matter. But as far as I was concerned, they were permanent.

18 Q. When you say "permanent," what time-period do you mean, sir?

19 A. I mean the time-period -- well, at any rate, the Sarajevo-Romanija

20 Corps could have a much longer period of time than me. They could have

21 been there for a month or even more than that. And then if there was no

22 fire coming from me, they could hold out for a year, perhaps even longer.

23 Q. I'm not sure I understand, sir. When you say "permanent," how

24 long a period of time do you mean in the case of this firing position?

25 A. In this case, when speaking of this firing position, at any the

Page 4109

1 rate, it is longer. They would probably have a few months or perhaps a

2 year or even more than a year at their disposal.

3 Q. Do you remember firing as coming from this position in the period

4 prior to 1994?

5 A. Prior to and afterwards as well.

6 Q. When you say "afterwards," do you recall firing coming from this

7 position up until the end of the war?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Now, having asked those questions, could I ask --

11 could I submit this as the next exhibit, please.


13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P504.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And could I ask the map itself, the larger map, ter

15 number 2788, be given a further exhibit number.


17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be P505.

18 MS. EDGERTON: And now, Mr. Usher, there is one further map for

19 the General.

20 Q. Now, sir, we're going to move next to the subject of modified air

21 bombs which you deal with at paragraphs 32 to 35 of your 2006 statement.

22 And let me begin by asking you this: Sir, to your knowledge, did the 1st

23 Corps have anything like or as powerful or of the same calibre as modified

24 air bombs?

25 A. No.

Page 4110

1 Q. Did the 1st Corps have any modified air bombs, to your knowledge?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, could you turn to the map behind you, which bears the number

4 02792, and tell us whether you understand, based on your experience, what

5 this map depicts?

6 A. "A decision of the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps for

7 offensive combat activities." That is what is written on the map, under

8 the name of "Lukavac 95."

9 Q. And do you see a name written on the tap left-hand corner of the

10 map?

11 A. It says, "I approve commander, Colonel General Ratko Mladic." On

12 his behalf, it was Milovanovic who signed it.

13 Q. And do you see a name on the bottom right-hand corner of the map.

14 A. It says, "commander, Major-General Dragomir Milosevic," with a

15 signature and stamp.

16 Q. Now, sir, have you, in the course of your military training and

17 activity, received training in the reading of maps, operational maps which

18 were used to plan combat activities?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this such a map?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. EDGERTON: And perhaps I could ask, then, Mr. Registrar, if

23 the ter number 02792A could be called up, and we may have a translation

24 available.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Edgerton, just a minute,

Page 4111

1 please. Witness, according to some testimonies, the weapons used by the

2 various armies, whether it be the Republika Srpska army or the ABiH army,

3 of the Muslims, the weapons, generally speaking, were inherited from the

4 former JNA. According to you, on the Muslim side were there any air bombs

5 that could have been used on board military aircraft or not?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, are you insulting me

7 when you are telling me Muslim army when you say Muslim army. Secondly,

8 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have air bombs. I assert with full

9 responsibility that in the area of responsibility of my corps there never

10 were any or were they ever used or anything even similar to it. Viewing

11 other types of armaments as a whole, it is absolutely correct that in

12 terms of what we had which was minimal, most of those weapons were of the

13 same provenance like the weapons of the army of Republika Srpska.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I could just ask --

16 Q. General, perhaps I could just ask you to make a further precision

17 significance reading this question and the answer. I had indicated to you

18 we were going to discuss the subject of modified air bombs, and I stress

19 the word "modified." And the question from His Honour Judge Mindua,

20 referred to air bombs without the prefix "modified."

21 Now in your response, you said the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did

22 not have air bombs. Could you --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said in his corps.

24 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, page 24, line 3 he says

25 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have air bombs.

Page 4112

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then he goes on to say I assert with full

2 responsibility that in the area of responsibility of my corps there

3 were -- there never were any or were they ever used or anything even

4 similar to it.

5 So I take it he is saying -- he is confining himself to his

6 corps. Perhaps you would like to have him clarify it.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. I'd like to find that out, Your Honour, and

8 to understand if he is referring to air bombs or modified air bombs.

9 Q. General, did you understand the comments and my response to Judge

10 Robinson. First of all, in your answer are you confining yourself to

11 assets held only by the 1st Corps, or are you discussing the army of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina? That's the first question.

13 A. For me, it's all the same, whether some type of original air bomb

14 was there or a modified air bomb. I put that within the context of a

15 single concept. As far as I know, it's army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

16 never had any such thing at their disposal. Therefore, my corps did not

17 have any such thing at its disposal or did it ever use such a thing.

18 Q. So if I understand your assertion, your assertion is your corps

19 did not have modified air bombs nor did they have air bombs which could be

20 dropped from an aeroplane. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the same thing applies to the ABiH army as a

23 whole?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, yes.


Page 4113

1 Q. Now --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, how far do you know? You say as far

3 as you know. That seems to suggest that there may be some uncertainty on

4 your part. Please clarify.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that the fact that I

6 was corps commander practically throughout the war in the biggest corps in

7 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that, is telling enough, and I proceed

8 from the notion that there is not a single person who knows everything.

9 So that is my answer.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Right. So you -- you do allow, then, for the

11 possibility that some other corps in the ABiH army might have had modified

12 air bombs and you might not have known of it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know with certainty whether

14 I was born on that date that is indicated in my ID. Perhaps somebody made

15 a mistake and wrote down a different date. But I claim from my position

16 that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have any such thing.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


19 Q. Perhaps we could go back or go now to the image that is on the

20 screen in front of you which is you see, General which is a magnification

21 of the legend that appears on the bottom left-hand corner of this map.

22 Could you read to us -- sorry, before I ask you that question, perhaps you

23 could explain this legend and what information generally it sets out.

24 A. The legend says on top: The balance of forces where the offensive

25 activities take place of our forces and the enemy forces. When it says

Page 4114

1 "our forces" here, that is the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and the enemy is

2 the 1st Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 This legend is split in half. The left half speaks of the number

4 of persons and all types of weapons available to that part of the forces

5 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps that is going to carry out offensive

6 activity.

7 Q. Now, with respect -- General, with respect to the list of weapons

8 that appears on that legend, if I could take you down to item number 10, I

9 think, in the list of weapons.

10 A. Yes, yes. It says here "launcher AB." I think it means "lanser

11 aviobomba"; that is to say, launcher of airbombs, total 2.

12 Q. And if you could go to the other side of the legend to the

13 corresponding entry where it says "launcher of aerial bombs available to

14 the enemy forces," what does it say?

15 A. Here is says "launcher of air bombs" and then there is just a

16 hyphen, that means zero, nothing. There aren't any.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could I ask that this cutout be

18 marked as the next exhibit, please?


20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P506.

21 MS. EDGERTON: And the larger map as well, ter 02972.


23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P507.


25 Q. Now, General, I would like you to look at a series of documents in

Page 4115

1 secession, that means one after the other, that I'm going to have asked to

2 be called on the screen in front of you.

3 MS. EDGERTON: The first one, Mr. Registrar, bears the number

4 02414.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I don't have a document with that 65 ter number

6 02414.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, and perhaps my

8 colleague, Ms. Bosnjakovic, can assist.

9 I have hard copies available. I will offer them up to go on the

10 ELMO.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please have it placed on the ELMO.

12 MS. EDGERTON: I'm just trying to find the picture of what should

13 be going out on the ELMO on my screen.

14 Q. General, do you see the document dated 8 June 1995 in front of

15 you?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And in this document, an artillery commander is requesting

18 information on a number of items. Could you tell us what the first item

19 is he is requesting information on?

20 A. The first item that information is being sought for is the number

21 of air bomb launchers according to the types, depending on what they're

22 capable of launching.

23 Q. And does this document set out pursuant to whose order this

24 request is being made?

25 A. Based on the order of the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija

Page 4116

1 Corps, it was actually drafted by his head of artillery, Colonel Tadija

2 Manojlovic.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask that this receive the next exhibit

5 number, please.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes P508.

8 MS. EDGERTON: The next document, which, I believe, Mr. Registrar,

9 will be electronically available, bears the ter number 02419.

10 Q. General, do you see a response from the 2nd Sarajevo Light

11 Infantry Brigade on the screen in front of you?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And what does it say with respect to air bomb launchers?

14 A. This report confirms that air bomb launcher is available, one

15 piece for 105 and 205 kilos, monorail - and if you can move it a little

16 bit the, I can't see the end of the sentence - monorail called Koseva.

17 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask this be given the next exhibit

18 number, please.


20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P509.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Now I would like to turn to a further document,

22 which according to my records bears the number 02422, but it doesn't

23 appear that it sits in e-court so I have hard copies available again.

24 Q. General, do you see -- General, do you see a response from the 1st

25 Romania Brigade on the screen in front of you?

Page 4117

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And what does it say with respect to air bomb launchers?

3 A. In this document, the command of the 1st Romania Brigade informs

4 the command of the SRK that they don't have an air bomb launcher but that

5 one is being currently manufactured.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask that be marked as the next exhibit,

8 please.


10 THE REGISTRAR: As P510, Your Honours.

11 MS. EDGERTON: The next document I'd like to refer to is -- bears

12 the number 02428, and it should be available electronically.

13 Q. General, this further response from the Ilidza Brigade, do you see

14 it on the screen in front of you?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What does it say with respect --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, the question that is troubling us

20 is whether these documents can properly be admitted through this witness.

21 All he is doing is merely confirming what you have read to him to be in

22 the document.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps then, Your Honour, there are two more

24 documents, and one question at the end of that may assist Your Honours in

25 making a determination as do whether they are properly admitted through

Page 4118

1 this witness. I'll proceed through the documents without offering each

2 one at the conclusion of his answer.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you should just ask the question now.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Hmm, with --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It may save us time.

6 MS. EDGERTON: It may save us time, but it may not give us all the

7 answers, Your Honours and I'm ending the end of my examination-in-chief

8 very quickly.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We'll follow you this time,

10 Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you for the indulgence, Your Honour. If I

12 can have further indulgence because I need to consult the transcript for a

13 moment.

14 Thank you.

15 Q. General, do you know Colonel Vladimir Radojicic?

16 A. I don't know him but I have heard of him.

17 Q. And who did you know him to be?

18 A. According to this, he was the commander of the 1st Ilidza Brigade.

19 Q. And, sir, can you see what Colonel Radojicic confirms with respect

20 to an air bomb launcher in item number 1 on this document?

21 A. Under item number 1, he confirmed to be in position of one --

22 possession of one air bomb launcher which can launch 100 and 250 kilo air

23 bomb.

24 MS. EDGERTON: And one final document, please, if I may. It bears

25 the number 2432, and it should be available electronically.

Page 4119

1 Q. General, can you look at the document that appears in front of

2 you. A response from Commander Josipovic in relation to the first

3 document. And what does he confirm as to whether or not his brigade has

4 an air bomb launcher?

5 A. This document also shows that the commander of the 3rd Brigade is

6 confirming to be in possession of an air bomb launcher, in brackets, 100,

7 200, and 250 kilos, one piece.

8 Q. So, General, now you have looked at a number of documents from

9 various SRK brigades speaking about whether they have air bomb launchers

10 in their possession. How does the total number of air bomb launchers

11 correspond with the number of air bomb launchers set out in the map you

12 looked at earlier?

13 A. I think that these reports show that there were even more of them

14 than the number shown in the map.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know which map we are

17 talking about.

18 MS. EDGERTON: For my friend's benefit, that would be the map that

19 appears on the tripod to the witness's left.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Has that been admitted; if so, what is the

21 exhibit number?

22 MS. EDGERTON: The larger map hasn't yet, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The larger map has not yet been admitted.

24 MS. EDGERTON: The cutout, the electronic image, the cutout of the

25 legend has been admitted, and I omitted to tender the map as a whole,

Page 4120

1 which I should. The cutout bears the number 504.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: P505 was the larger map.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I stand corrected, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the map has been admitted.


6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it the cutout that is the relevant part?

7 MS. EDGERTON: For the Prosecution's case, the cutout is the

8 most -- the most significant part.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, very well.

10 Did you answer the question?

11 MS. EDGERTON: At page 32, lines 16 and 17, the witness said: "I

12 think that these reports show that there were even more of them than the

13 number shown on the map."

14 And that being the case, Your Honour, I would now like to ask the

15 following documents --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness didn't

18 show at all anything in relation to air bombs. I don't actually know what

19 he showed us in the map. He didn't show anything. What he did show on

20 the map was that there were no launchers for air bombs. There were two

21 air bombs; but in the other box, he said there were no launchers. That's

22 what he has shown, nothing else. The map shows that there were no

23 launchers. That's what he said a minute ago.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: I think I can clarify any unclarity with one

Page 4121

1 question, Your Honour, to the witness, if I may.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.


4 Q. General, if you can turn to the legend on the map in front of you,

5 on the right-hand side of the legend, where it sets out weaponry available

6 to enemy forces, and you have already given evidence that there are no air

7 bombs listed. Is that consistent with your information as to whether any

8 air bombs were in possession of the ABiH 1st Corps?

9 A. Yes, it is. When they were preparing the offensive operation,

10 they had accurate assessment. When they said that they themselves had two

11 launchers, they did not put any number and left this box blank when it

12 concerned my forces. In other words, they had two pieces and I had zero

13 pieces, so their assessment was accurate, and they knew that I didn't have

14 any air bomb launchers.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I truly have to

16 object to this. I don't see that these positions of launchers are plotted

17 anywhere in the map, nor did the witness show us anything in relation to

18 the use of the launchers in this particular instances, except for what he

19 just repeated now. I don't understand, and I think that this needs to be

20 clarified for the benefit of Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, have you extracted from the witness

22 any evidence as to the number of air bombs specified anywhere on the map?

23 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. The witness was not asked whether

24 he was able to see indications on that map that would denote air bombs.

25 He was asked about whether he could recognise the symbols that denote any

Page 4122

1 other -- other large artillery.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The point is when you asked him about

3 correspondence between something on the map and something in the

4 document --

5 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, I didn't ask him about

6 the correspondence with anything on the map. I asked him about the

7 legend. We did not discuss any items on the map whatsoever. We only

8 discussed the information contained --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's what I meant. I was speaking of the

10 legend as being part of the map.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Uh-huh.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is there in the legend that indicates a

13 number? That's what I'm not clear about.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have, Mr. Registrar, 02788B back on the

15 screen, please.

16 My apologies, 02792A, and my apologies to the Chamber for being

17 numerically deficient.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]


20 Q. General, do you see the legend to the map that's beside you on the

21 screen in front of you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, tell us, General, if you do where, then, on this legend it

24 indicates the number of air bomb launchers available to -- and I believe

25 the translation would be "our forces."

Page 4123

1 A. In the left-hand half of this legend, it refers to the forces of

2 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps intended for these offensive operations. And

3 under item 10, among other things, they will have at their disposal two

4 pieces of air bomb launchers.

5 In the right-hand side of the -- half of the legend, which refers

6 to my forces as enemy forces, this same item shows the quantity of

7 launchers as zero or hyphen, that is based on their assessment.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Does that clarify matters for Your Honours?

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take the break. We'll take the

11 break, and when we return I will hear arguments from both sides as to

12 whether these documents should be admitted or whether they should not be

13 marked for identification. That's P508, 509, 510, 511.

14 We'll take the break now.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I'll hear you as to why these

18 documents should be admitted through this witness instead of become marked

19 for identification.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, in that regard, and I've looked

21 at these documents in some detail over the break, they're signed; they're

22 stamped; they, on their face, on their very face have the appearance of

23 authenticity. They're directly relevant, Your Honours, because they deal

24 specifically with the air bombs, which the witness has shown some

25 knowledge of. The air bombs in the period in 1995, in the period covered

Page 4124

1 by the map, which the witness dealt with the legend of; and probably most

2 significantly, Your Honour, my submission would be there was no objection

3 from Defence counsel as to the admission of any of these documents until

4 the moment it was raised by Your Honours.

5 So in light of all those, Your Honours, my submission would be

6 they could be admitted as exhibits at this moment.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, would that be consistent with the practice

8 that we have been following as to the admission of documents in the trial?

9 MS. EDGERTON: I think very much so, Your Honour. I'm of the

10 view, and Mr. Whiting has confirmed, that the Prosecution has throughout

11 the course of this trial agreed to the admission of documents which would

12 normally be marked for identification. So I think admitting these

13 documents now would he very much in line with the practice that has been

14 followed.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecution has agreed to the admission of

16 documents. These are documents tendered by the Defence.

17 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, Ms. Edgerton has asked me to address

18 this, since it's a matter with the trial.

19 I believe that we have agreed on certain occasions, and I say this

20 based on my memory. I can't give you an example and I cannot say with 100

21 per cent certainty about this, but I believe we have agreed at times to

22 the admission of documents into evidence, even though we could have made

23 the objection that they shouldn't only be admitted for identification.

24 And it seems to me that where the Defence has not made any

25 objection to their admission into evidence that they should come into

Page 4125

1 evidence and not simply be marked for identification. I think that I is a

2 sufficient basis for their admission into evidence.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is true on

5 several occasions the Prosecutor agreed with certain proposals by the

6 Defence for the documents to be marked for identification, but that

7 referred to documents that were not in dispute. However, in the majority

8 of cases, whenever we proposed certain things for identification, they

9 were rejected because the witness questioned about these documents knew

10 nothing about them; therefore, I cannot understand how can this witness

11 confirm the authenticity of these documents? In what way can he do that?

12 I would understand if the witness explained anything on the map

13 about what happened there. He didn't say anything about when this

14 operation, Lukavica 95, took place in order for us to establish a

15 correlation between that and air bombs. First, he has to tell us when

16 this operation took place. You know that the indictment says that the

17 first air bomb was used sometime in May or April. I don't know exactly.

18 So we did not get any explanation as to what operations were

19 involved and in which operations these air bombs you were used. At any

20 rate, these document cannot be tendered through this witness even for

21 identification. Of course, it is going to be up to the Trial Chamber to

22 decide that, and I believe and I hope that the Prosecution can bring the

23 witness through whom these documents can be tendered.

24 In addition to that, this legend, first of all, it's not a

25 characteristic one. It has to be signed in terms of the information

Page 4126

1 contained therein. It does not contain any signature and any verification

2 of the information contained in the boxes. It could have been put there

3 at any time.

4 So the legend also has to have a signature, much more so than the

5 signature of the Dragomir Milosevic that is on the map. At any rate, the

6 decision, Lukavica 95, has to have a link established with relevant

7 documents. All these documents dated the 8th, the 10th, and the 12th only

8 say "we have launchers in our possession," nothing else. Hence, I don't

9 see in what way and how can these documents be admitted through this

10 witness.

11 This is my objection, and I think these are crucial matters;

12 however, this is going to be up to the Trial Chamber to decide.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, may I just very briefly.


15 MR. WHITING: Counsel for the Defence has addressed the issue of

16 the map, but I don't believe the map is at issue here. That has already

17 been admitted; and if there was a clear foundation for it from the witness

18 for the admission of the map, I don't think there is any dispute about the

19 admissibility of the map and the legend. My understanding was that this

20 respect to four documents that were discussed later.

21 And there I think our principle argument is that, number one, the

22 appearance of authenticity, but, secondly there was no objection, and they

23 were admitted into evidence with no objection from the Defence. And now

24 we're having a kind of re-do, where the Defence is raising objections when

25 it had not been.

Page 4127

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber's ruling in accordance with the

3 practice that we have followed is that the documents 508, 509, and 510

4 will be marked for identification; and then I believe there are two other

5 documents in respect of which you may want to make some application. I

6 don't know.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. I've discussed the matter with

9 Mr. Whiting, and I will move to the last question in the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, does this mean that you will not seek

12 admission of the response from Commander Radojicic and Colonel Josipovic

13 from the 3rd Brigade as to how many air bomb launchers they were in

14 possession of? It's fine with us; just so we know where you're heading.

15 MS. EDGERTON: I will ask one question of the witness, with Your

16 Honour's permission, with respect to the Josipovic document, dated 14 June

17 1995, ter number 02432. If I could ask Mr. Registrar for that document to

18 be brought up on the monitor.

19 Q. General, who, to your knowledge, was Colonel Dragan Josipovic?

20 A. As far as I know, for a long time, he was commander of one of the

21 brigades.

22 Q. And was -- a second question then from that. What areas fell in

23 the responsibility of his brigade, are you aware?

24 A. I don't know whether he was always the commander of one brigade,

25 all the time, or whether he changed. I cannot be more specific now. I

Page 4128

1 cannot say exactly what the area of responsibility of his brigade was.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, having heard the witness' answer I --

3 and his familiarity with this last, I would ask for the last two

4 documents, the Josipovic document bearing the number 02432, and it's

5 Ilidza Brigade Radojicic document bearing the number 02428, be marked as

6 exhibits.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this case, what

9 is being insisted upon is to have them admitted into evidence straight

10 away. I don't see what this witness did confirm in relation to these

11 documents and what he can confirm at all. He cannot say anything about

12 their authenticity or how they were written or who wrote them, except for

13 what he can read what it says on the documents themselves. About these

14 documents, he knows absolutely nothing.

15 I was many times in a position during these proceedings that the

16 Defence could not have certain documents admit the because there was not

17 sufficient material provided by the person who could have identified the

18 document in some sense.

19 I don't know what else I can say, but I'm opposed to this.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll mark them for identification.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 02428 will be marked

23 for identification as P511, and 65 ter number 02432 will be marked for

24 identification as P512.


Page 4129

1 Q. Now, General, I have one last question for you.

2 Before August 1994 and after August 1994, until the end of the

3 war, was there any noticeable change in the safety and security situation

4 for the civilians in Sarajevo, as you saw it?

5 A. No. I didn't feel it.

6 MS. EDGERTON: That concludes the examination-in-chief, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

9 Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm Defence counsel for General Dragomir

13 Milosevic; and in relation to your statements, I will have to confine

14 myself to a very limited scope, unless I have some time left later.

15 Primary, I will deal with questions that have to do with

16 documents, for the most part, documents that you signed while you were in

17 command. And I will always insist on us talking about the time between

18 the 10th of August, 1994 until the 21st of November, 1995. That is the

19 time during which General Milosevic was commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija

20 Corps. This is why I would like to ask that we first show on the monitor

21 Prosecution Exhibit P42 --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter did not

23 catch the number.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Repeat the number. Exhibit 42 ...?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] P492, Prosecution Exhibit. That

Page 4130

1 is dated the 23rd and 22nd of October and the 31st of October. Yes, the

2 year is 2001, yes.

3 Q. As you can see on this first page -- or from this first page, this

4 is your statement Mr. Karavelic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I would just like for to us deal with paragraph on page 2. In

7 the English version, it's also on page 2, the fourth paragraph. You see

8 how it starts: "When hostilities began in Ljubljana, our army barracks

9 were surrounded by the territorial of Slovenia," and then you talk about

10 some attempts that were made by the JNA and by Sipcic; and then you say:

11 "When the Slovenian Territorial Defence cut off the water and electricity

12 supply, Sipcic threatened to shell the entire centre of the city."

13 Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. However, that is correct was not done. No one shot at anyone from

16 the barracks where you were, right?

17 A. There wasn't any significant combat. I cannot guarantee anything

18 in terms of individuals.

19 Q. Can you confirm that the Yugoslav People's Army, precisely because

20 of that because young soldiers were being killed in barracks, quickly

21 withdrew from Slovenia. Can you confirm that?

22 A. I cannot.

23 Q. All right. And can you confirm that in Slovenia, the Territorial

24 Defence had killed about 50 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army? Yes

25 or no.

Page 4131

1 A. I know that there were soldiers killed but I cannot give you the

2 figure.

3 Q. All right. When the JNA crossed over to Croatia, you were still

4 in the Yugoslav People's Army -- or rather in Bosnia.

5 A. I arrived in Bosnia, but I was in the Yugoslav People's Army, yes.

6 Q. Yes. But while the army was withdrawing through Croatia, you were

7 still in the army?

8 A. Yes, I was taking a unit from Ljubljana to Zenica.

9 Q. All right. The barracks in Croatia, when you were withdrawing,

10 were they surrounded and were they fired at?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then you left the Yugoslav People's Army?

13 A. The end of 1991.

14 Q. And you immediately joined the Patriotic League or the Green

15 Berets?

16 A. Could you separate the Patriotic League from the Green Berets?

17 Q. All right. At the moment, since the state was functioning, sort

18 of, it was a paramilitary unity then, wasn't it?

19 A. That's what you call it.

20 Q. I beg your pardon. I have just heard that the transcript does to

21 the reflect that the witness became a member of the Patriotic League.

22 Could that please be entered in the transcript?

23 A. But it is in the transcript, later.

24 Q. Oh, later. All right.

25 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry. But from what I see on the transcript,

Page 4132

1 he asked -- the witness asked Mr. Tapuskovic to separate the Patriotic

2 League from the Green Berets, and then a further question was asked. And

3 the witness did not confirm his membership in either of those

4 organisations.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

6 Q. Can you confirm that you were --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's ask him. Were you a member of the

8 Patriotic League?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did work according to tasks given

10 to me by the political top echelons of Sarajevo, and it can be called work

11 of the Patriotic League.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And were you a member of the Green Berets.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

16 Q. Let us focus for a moment on this problem. Now, when the Yugoslav

17 People's Army arrived in Sarajevo, at one point in time were the barracks

18 there in Sarajevo too surrounded by members of the territorial and by

19 members of the Patriotic League that you were a member of? Yes or no.

20 A. On the 20th of August, 1991, I brought my battalion to the

21 barracks in Zenica in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is where I stayed for

22 all of two months. During that period of time, that barracks was not

23 touched in any way by anyone.

24 On the 20th of October, I moved to the Husinjska Buna barracks in

25 Tuzla, and that is where I stayed until the enter of 1991. I claim with

Page 4133

1 full responsibility that no one touched those barracks, too, and no one

2 tried to touch them in any way.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. But we can say at any rate that in 1991,

4 in January, right, you were already the leader of a battalion of the

5 Patriotic League, right?

6 A. You mean 1992?

7 Q. I beg your pardon, 1992.

8 A. From the beginning of 1992, up until the war, I was registered as

9 the coordinator of the Patriotic League for the area of north-west

10 Bosnia --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: North-east Bosnia.

12 Q. These were armed units?

13 A. These were people without units, up until somewhere in February or

14 March. People with their own weapons depending on who had what type of

15 weapons, hunting weapons, and things like that.

16 Q. The war started in April 1992.

17 A. Officially, on the 6th of April, 1992, in terms of legal norms,

18 but it started a lot earlier on the 1st of April, in Bijeljina.

19 Q. But wasn't it Sjekovac that came first, the massacre of 30 Serbs,

20 nearby in Bosanski Novi in March? You don't know about that?

21 A. Indeed, this is the first time I hear about it.

22 Q. All right. Can we now move on to page 3.

23 I beg your pardon. I do apologise. Really, I have just received

24 a suggestion from the accused. I said Bosanski Novi, but Sjekovac is

25 near Bosanski Brod.

Page 4134

1 A. It doesn't really mean anything it me.

2 Q. All right. Now we're dealing with page 3. And in the English

3 version it is the fifth paragraph on page 3, and the B/C/S version is

4 paragraph 3 from the bottom.

5 You say here: "When leaving the JNA, I joined the Patriotic

6 League of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The idea for the league had originated from

7 gathering of several hundreds politicians and SDA members led by President

8 Izetbegovic in June 1991. The idea was to organise the population to

9 defend itself in case of attack."

10 Is it correct that these military units in the form of the

11 Patriotic League started functioning as far back as June 1991? Yes or no.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Next paragraph: "When I left the JNA, I became the commander of

14 the Patriotic League for north-east Bosnia. The task of the preparing the

15 population was not simply in obtaining weapons." But that's it? Yes or

16 no.

17 A. Inter alia.

18 Q. And you made an effort to arm the people, the population, even

19 then before the conflict.

20 A. Because I was an officer of the JNA until that point in time, and

21 I saw what it was that the Yugoslav People's Army was preparing and that

22 is why I had to do that.

23 Q. You said a moment ago that the barracks in Slovenia were

24 surrounded, and I'm not going to back to had an it was that you said or to

25 what happened in Croatia in May and late May in particular. Did the

Page 4135

1 Patriotic League surround even hospitals and barracks in Sarajevo, and you

2 also participated in that?

3 A. Look, I am really trying to be as brief as possible in terms of

4 the answers --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment. Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: There are two questions in that, Your Honour.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. EDGERTON: There are two questions in that, Your Honour, and

9 perhaps the witness will be entitled to answer one question at a time.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, absolutely. And the first question was...

11 MS. EDGERTON: My submission, Your Honour, is that the first

12 question would be did the Patriotic League surround hospitals and barracks

13 in Sarajevo. The second question would be whether or not the witness took

14 part in that.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm grateful for that.

16 Answer the first question.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Patriotic League did not

18 surround hospitals and barracks. During that period of time, I could not

19 have been there. I could not have participated because I was in prison in

20 Serbia in Sremska Mitrovica near Belgrade. I had been taken prisoner.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And when were you taken prisoner, in what military action?

24 Because obviously you took part in military action. How was it that you

25 were taken prisoner?

Page 4136

1 A. If you think that this is it action, to come to attend a meeting

2 with the head of the municipality of Zivinice near Tuzla, also in

3 Focakovic, then that is your view. I was taken prisoner in that office,

4 in the office of the head of the municipality of Zivinice, because in

5 conjunction with officers of the Yugoslav People's Army, from the military

6 air field of Dubrava near Tuzla, there was an agreement. They betrayed

7 me, and I was handed over to the JNA; then I was taken by helicopter to

8 Belgrade and then to prisoner in Sremska Mitrovica, and I was sentenced to

9 death.

10 Q. What were these proceedings, and after all you were not executed,

11 the death sentence was not carried out?

12 A. The death sentence was not carried out only thanks to God All

13 Mighty, and the fact that Alija Izetbegovic was detained at the airport in

14 May 1992. So when he was exchange in Sarajevo with Kukanjac, General

15 Kukanjac, the commander of the 2nd Military District, then the territorial

16 defence in Sarajevo took prisoner about 200 JNA officers. So in order

17 to --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're speaking too fast. The interpreter is

19 having difficult keeping up with you.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The court reporters cannot

21 record everything that is being said at this speed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Alija Izetbegovic, the

23 president of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was exchanged for

24 General Kukanjac the commander of the 2nd Military District of the JNA in

25 Sarajevo, then the members of the territorial defence of

Page 4137

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina took prisoner in Sarajevo about 200 military officers

2 of the JNA. In order to get those officers back, and especially one of

3 the key officers, Suput, and yet another one, Bijalosovic, who were the

4 first assistants of General Aca Vasiljevic, I managed to be set free.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Will you tell us more about these

6 proceedings as a result of which you were sentenced to death. What

7 proceedings were these?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't similar to this, but there

9 were also three presiding persons, like the three of you sitting now.

10 Three colonels in a separate building in a separate room in the prison in

11 Sremska Mitrovica. It was that court that was interrogating me for 13

12 days at the end, quite literally. There are records of that. I'm sure

13 that Mr. Tapuskovic can get them from Belgrade. He can; I cannot. When

14 they asked me after that, "You're bound to be sentenced to death." That's

15 what they said to me. "Finally, let us ask you, how you would like to be

16 executed," and my answer was, "I would kindly request that only a bullet

17 be used and nothing else."

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were you charged with any offences; and if so,

19 what were the offences?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The basic point in the indictment

21 was treason to the Yugoslav People's Army and violation of the

22 constitution of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, or

23 rather, desertion from the Yugoslav People's Army. I had deserted from

24 the Yugoslav People's Army.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 4138

1 Sorry.

2 Did you have a lawyer to defend you in the proceedings?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, no.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

5 Q. You did not mention the most important thing of all, that was

6 referred to there was primarily this armed rebellion because the state was

7 still in existence, and you were a member of the Patriotic League, as an

8 illegal, illegitimate paramilitary formation. Is that what was referred

9 to most of all?

10 A. If you want the truth --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear Ms. Edgerton.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I would ask that my friend rephrase

13 the question, because in my submission it's not for counsel on either side

14 to testify as to the nature of any organisation. Mr. Tapuskovic in asking

15 the question to the witness has told the witness that the Patriotic League

16 was an illegal, illegitimate paramilitary formation, and I would ask the

17 question be rephrased.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why? Why can't he put it to the witness that

19 that was the nature of the organisation? He needs to put his case.

20 MS. EDGERTON: He can put his case to the witness, Your Honour,

21 but in my submission it's not for my friend to give evidence as to the

22 nature of at organisation.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. He is not giving evidence. He is putting it

24 to him that that was the nature of the organisation to which he belonged,

25 and it is for the witness to say whether that is so or not.

Page 4139

1 What is your answer to the question put to you by Mr. Tapuskovic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave my answer to you personally.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't hear it. The question that was put to

4 you was that you didn't mention the most important aspect relating to your

5 case, which is that you were a member of the Patriotic League which was an

6 illegal and an illegitimate paramilitary organisation. What do you say to

7 that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In one of my statements, you can

9 find this. It is written there.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must answer the question that I have asked.

11 What is your answer to the question? Don't direct me to your statement.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sincerely apologise. I thought

13 that you asked me that this was omitted in the statement. It is in my

14 statement and can I repeat my answer.

15 Patriotic League was an informal organisation. Its objective was

16 exclusively to achieve political mobility in the event of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina being attacked and subjected to aggression; the

18 enlightenment of people.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You know, just like everybody else, and it is also in the

23 literature probably by your people, that in January 1992, the Patriotic

24 League had 120.000 people under arms. Sefer Halilovic confirmed that

25 categorically in his book?

Page 4140

1 A. I don't know what Sefer Halilovic claims, but I can say that in

2 north-east Bosnia, where I was, that there were -- that the people had

3 weapons, but more than 90 per cent of those weapons were hunting rifles.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell me one more thing in relation to this. You

5 complained what transpired in Slovenia and what happened in Croatia, and

6 you said a while ago the thing about President Izetbegovic and the 2nd of

7 May.

8 Can you confirm that in Bosnia-Herzegovina this happened also:

9 After the army started withdrawing from the barracks on the 2nd and 3rd of

10 May, 1992, a massacre of soldiers took place, of soldiers who were

11 peacefully leaving the barracks in a column? Can you confirm that?

12 A. I cannot, because at the time I was in prison.

13 Q. Is it true that several hundred people while withdrawing from

14 Tuzla, or rather, several hundred soldiers were killed while they were

15 peacefully retreating from Tuzla toward Serbia? Yes or no.

16 A. I know very well what this is all about. You are asking me just

17 to say yes or no. This was a --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can the witness please

19 repeat the location?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't hear the location, the place that you

21 referred to.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brcanska Malta.


24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I put it to you that according to reliable sources of information,

Page 4141

1 this column was leaving completely peacefully; and at a very inconvenient

2 place, the soldiers were killed? Yes or no.

3 A. You are asking me about the soldiers and the barracks that I had

4 deserted from a few months before that, so I know these things much better

5 than you do.

6 Q. All of a sudden you know about that. A while ago you didn't know

7 anything about Dobrovoljacka, but you said that you were prison when this

8 happened in Tuzla.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How come you know for sure now what happened?

11 A. I know what happened in Dobrovoljacka because I heard about that.

12 I didn't see it with my own eyes. I wouldn't comment on the Tuzla

13 incident, but you are leading me in that direction.

14 Q. Thank you. We have exhausted this subject.

15 Let's move to page 13 of your statement. It's page 12 in the

16 English version, last passage. This is what you say here. That's

17 paragraph 3 in the B/C/S version. You talk about the change of tactics,

18 and you say as follows: "In 1994, we changed our tactics and tried to

19 take the majority of our forces --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is not the reference

21 which counsel gave.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Excuse me. I didn't get any English translation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The reference given by the

24 counsel is obviously not the correct one.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, please provide with us the

Page 4142

1 correct reference; page and paragraph.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 12 in the English version,

3 last paragraph.

4 MS. EDGERTON: I think it's the last paragraph under the heading,

5 "Attempts to break out of Sarajevo," which is in the middle of page 12.

6 Thanks to Mr. Registrar and Mr. Usher.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We now have it on the screen.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. What's written here, is it correct you said yes?

10 A. Because I finally realised that Sarajevo cannot be open from

11 inside as a can. You don't open a can from inside. That is why I changed

12 the tactics with a view to opening this can, i.e., Sarajevo, from outside.

13 Q. Can you explain whether you could have opened this can from the

14 outside if you didn't have the tunnel that existed under the airport?

15 A. No. Because the SRK kept Sarajevo in the can; that is, under

16 siege.

17 Q. And did this siege exist still in place because you had an

18 opportunity to go through the tunnel. Who was under siege actually?

19 A. Nothing changed. The citizens of Sarajevo were still under siege.

20 The tunnel was used only for military purposes and for the supply of

21 weapons. Sarajevo was still without water, without electricity, without

22 gas, food, and all other necessities.

23 Q. Witness, can you please look at page 14, and page 13 in the

24 English version, paragraph 4, if I got it right.

25 You say here again, but you elaborate a bit.

Page 4143

1 "At the beginning of 1994, we started to counterattack and many of

2 our forces moved out of the city, which we had concluded could not be

3 successfully defended from within. During 1994, we regained much of the

4 ground that we had lost during the VRS offensive, and we attempted to

5 encircle part of the VRS forces."

6 Is this correct?

7 A. In principle and generally speaking, yes.

8 Q. Was this particular characteristic for the period between August

9 1994 and the end of the conflict in November 1995? Yes or no.

10 A. That was characteristic from the moment the tunnel was built, and

11 that is the 1st of August, 1994 --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1993.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Initially, the tunnel was not in the condition that it was in

15 later?

16 A. Please don't talk about this to me. I know in which connection it

17 was. I built it myself.

18 Q. I understand that. However, in 1994, I understand the

19 justification with regard to food and medicine, but much more weapons

20 passed through the tunnel and entered Sarajevo; Hundreds of thousands of

21 tons, as Alija Izetbegovic says in his book called, "Memory."

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are proceeding much too fast, both of you.

23 The interpreter is having great difficulty keeping up with the pace, so

24 please slow down and don't overlap. You have to wait for the

25 interpretation to finish. I'm speaking to both of you, Mr. Tapuskovic and

Page 4144

1 the witness.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My question about the tunnel

3 wasn't recorded in the transcript. I have to repeat it.

4 Q. The tunnel that was built under the airport made it possible in

5 the period between August 1994 and November 1995, of course, for people to

6 receive supplies of food and medicines; however, on most occasions, it was

7 used for the flow of enormous quantities of weapons entering Sarajevo as a

8 demilitarised zone? Yes or no.

9 A. It was, first and foremost, used for the passage of soldiers and

10 it's wounded. Secondly, it was used for food supplies; and, thirdly, it

11 was used for various types of ammunition and weapons.

12 Q. But it was mostly used for fresh troops to leave Sarajevo and go

13 to the front line where attacks were launched on Ilijas, Ilidza, and

14 further on towards Trnovo and Nisic Viseron [phoen]? Yes or no.

15 A. I'm just finishing a book about the Sarajevo's war tunnel, and you

16 will soon be able to read it. In terms of time, of usage, the most time

17 was used for providing food supplies.

18 Q. I will just like to tackle two more topics relating to your

19 statement.

20 The next one is on page 16 of the B/C/S version, and page 15,

21 second -- English version page 15, paragraph 2, heading "Use of mobile

22 mortars in Sarajevo."

23 I'm going to read it very slowly to you.

24 "Unauthorized use of mobile mortars in Sarajevo caused a great

25 deal of trouble for me and for the 1st Corps," and further on, "They were

Page 4145

1 never able to locate such mortar, not even the military police. I was

2 never able to clearly establish their ownership or even their existence.

3 "Even today I do not know who controlled or commanded these

4 weapons. It was certainly not the policy of the corps to use such weapons

5 in Sarajevo in that manner. I asked UNPROFOR to intervene directly in

6 this matter."

7 Please, is this correct? Is this true that you never knew who it

8 was?

9 A. In retrospect, I'm deeply convinced that this was a fabricated

10 term by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and promoted as such through UNPROFOR,

11 in order to provide them with an alibi for all their inhumane treatment of

12 the city, and what is written in the report is true.

13 Q. No, no, no, no. Witness, you said in the first sentence that it

14 was an unauthorised use of mobile mortars. You knew at the time that

15 these mortars were being used. This is what you said in your first

16 sentence? Yes or no.

17 A. This is ridiculous. No.

18 Q. You also had terrorists organisations in Sarajevo such as Seva

19 that was involved in and committing acts contrary to the will of your

20 corps?

21 A. I would advise you not to use the word "terrorist." This is your

22 opinion. This unit did exist, but it was not a terrorist unit.

23 Q. Let me move quickly to another two topics. B/C/S version page 15,

24 English version page 14, paragraph 4, so I have to go back a little.

25 Here you say that you had to remove Fikret Prevljak, who was the

Page 4146

1 commander of the 12th Division in Sarajevo - that's the one that existed

2 and operated in Sarajevo and from Sarajevo - and also Ismet Hadzic; is

3 this true?

4 A. What is your question, please?

5 Q. You write here that you removed these two gentlemen. Why?

6 A. Because of indiscipline.

7 Q. Hadn't they, during the conflict and particularly recently, been

8 accused or suspected of killing Serbs and Muslims and everybody else?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just one moment. Let's hear the answer first to

10 your question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing about anyone being

12 suspected of this kind of acts that this gentleman is referring to, that

13 involved Fikret Prevljak and Brigadier Hadzic. They are all living as

14 free people in Sarajevo, and I know of no indictment being issued against

15 them.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. You also had serious disagreement and

18 conflict with the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigade and their commanders. Is

19 it true that you settled your scores in a way with them, precisely because

20 they were suspected of numerous killings of Croats and Muslims at the

21 beginning of war, even in their thousands? Yes or no.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Before Ms. Edgerton says that

23 you're asking two questions, let us separate them.

24 Did you have serious disagreement with the 9th and 10th Mountain

25 Brigade and their commanders? What is the answer to that one?

Page 4147

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You did. And then is it true that you settled

3 your scores with them because they were suspected of numerous killings of

4 Croats and Muslims?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for part of the answer, yes. As

6 for another part of the answer, no. As for this, yes. Yes, I did settle

7 my scores with them. As for one brigade commander and a number of his

8 officers, we did away with them. We liquidated them. And an another

9 brigade commander and some 300 officers almost and soldiers, we put them

10 into prison.

11 Therefore, before the cantonal court in Sarajevo, I think there

12 are still ongoing proceedings. Why they were the way they were and why I

13 settled this with them in this way is primarily due to a lack of

14 discipline; and, secondly, because they committed violations against the

15 non-Bosniak population in very small numbers.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to put to you some documents. I have

18 quite a few of them.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we please put Defence

20 exhibit D106 on the monitor. There is a translation there, too, of

21 course.

22 Q. You see the document? It says how many people the 1st Corps had

23 in the beginning of August 1994. Can you confirm on the basis of this

24 document that was signed by Halilagic, the person in charge, that then the

25 1st Corps had 62.899 persons or members.

Page 4148

1 A. I know that in 1993, the 1st Corps was the one with the largest

2 number of soldiers. 63.000, this is a bit less. So I confirm this if

3 this is an official document.

4 Q. Honourable Witness, I got this document in the archives of the

5 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was confirmed by the appropriate

6 official of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Then there is no doubt.

8 Q. Thank you. Can we say that the 1st Corps consisted of three

9 division: The 12th, 14th, 16th, respectively?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you confirm that two corps, the 14th and 16th, were outside

12 Sarajevo, and the 12th was in Sarajevo in its entirety? Yes or no.

13 A. You're referring to divisions?

14 Q. Divisions.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then in Sarajevo there were certainly 40.000 members of this

17 12th Division?

18 A. The figure ranged from 30 to 40.

19 Q. However, can we say that in addition to the divisions and

20 brigades, there were a few independent manoeuvring brigades: The 141st,

21 43rd, and 46th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you confirm that there was engineering, military police,

24 artillery --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is meant by "independent manoeuvreing

Page 4149

1 brigades"?

2 Let mow ask the witness because he did answer yes. What does that

3 mean?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the war, I had brigades,

5 many of them that were static and that held the defence line, and their

6 number ranged from three to 5.000 soldiers. At the end of 1994 and

7 beginning of 1995, I decided to single out from these units some soldiers

8 and to have a few small manoeuvreing brigades that would have up to 1.000

9 soldiers.

10 They would not be on the defence line only. They would not be

11 stuck to that line, but they could go to wherever a breakthrough was

12 attempted and also wherever they could be needed for offensive activity.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

14 We will stop now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

17 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.