Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7195

1 Monday, 25 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today, Judge Mindua being absent, Judge Harhoff

7 and I sit pursuant to the provisions of Rule 15 bis, and Mr. Tapuskovic,

8 you were to re-examine the witness.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes,

10 I still have a few things that I needed to clarify with this witness.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS T-48 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 Q. Good morning, Witness.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you know that last

16 time there was talk about the transcript from the Galic case, about the

17 home for the blind and about the way the transcript was interpreted by my

18 learned friend, the Prosecutor, Mr. Sachdeva. So I would like to have it

19 shown on the ELMO -- actually, page 14224, line 22, and page 14225, until

20 line 6 -- up to line 6, so that the interpreters can translate to the

21 witness what he said so that I could ask him questions about that because

22 my learned friend, the Prosecutor, put some things to the witness in a way

23 that did not or does not accord with the transcript in relation to the

24 home for the blind. That would be that page. It's line 22. So could the

25 interpreters please translate what it says in those lines?

Page 7196

1 There is no translation. I can't hear it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we having the translation?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I heard the translation, the

4 complete translation, into B/C/S.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Only the B/C/S booth was working. We were

6 interpreting what the translation is on the ELMO.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there was talk

9 about him saying earlier that he was once in the home for the blind.

10 Q. Can you see that, Witness? If you heard the translation, is it

11 true that you spoke about showing the intersection between Bosna Srebena

12 and Lukavica street and that to the question if you were in any of those

13 buildings, did you go to any of these buildings between September 1992 and

14 August 1994, any of those buildings? Isn't it correct you were asked if

15 you visited or went to any of the buildings, but not about you going

16 actually to the home of the blind -- for the blind?

17 A. Yes, any building.

18 Q. And that once -- and that you were in one of those buildings with

19 your commander at one point in 1995?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So there was no mention of you being in the building that housed

22 the home for the blind; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness

Page 7197

1 Prosecution Exhibit P783? Can we zoom on the document, please? Thank

2 you. And now, could the usher please assist the witness and give him a

3 different coloured marker? A colour other than blue.

4 Q. Can you please first point to where the Gusica Hala was here that

5 you talked about before? Can you please mark that with a letter G?

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Can you draw a line between that place and the place where the

8 home of the blind was?

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Can you mark that with the letter S, please?

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. The location, as you -- that you marked as Gusica Hala and that

13 you discussed last time, where you were almost hit, that was your

14 position?

15 A. Not during the entire war. I can indicate the position where I

16 was for most of the war period. [Marks].

17 Q. Can you please mark that with the letter R?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. And now, I would like you to mark with a red line on either side,

20 in order to get out of this area, where you had to go.

21 A. There are two.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Sachdeva?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm wondering how this arises out of

24 cross-examination. Perhaps I could --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you only wondering?

Page 7198

1 MR. SACHDEVA: I submit that does not arise out of

2 cross-examination.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Mr. Tapuskovic, what aspect of the

4 cross-examination does this relate to?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, this map, this map, all

6 of this, was indicated at the request of the Prosecution, marked at the

7 request of the Prosecution, and now, in order to understand this, we need

8 to get from the witness additional explanations. Here is the first thing

9 that would be important. From which directions was there firing on this

10 area that is marked in this way by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Can you please mark --

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before that, of

13 course, you need to decide whether the objection is justified because this

14 map --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic, for allowing me to

16 decide.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we are not with you on this one.

19 We believe that it does arise. So the questioning may proceed.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. First of all, Witness, can you please indicate on this map where

22 Mojmilo is?

23 A. You're talking about Mojmilo hill?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. [Marks]. You cannot see the top of the hill, but it lies from

Page 7199

1 this name here, Mojmilo, that is the Mojmilo settlement, and then it goes

2 on and you cannot see where it ends.

3 Q. Thank you. And where is Stup, approximately?

4 A. [Marks]. Well, it's the broader area, wider area of the centre.

5 Q. And can you indicate the direction from which firing came to this

6 area where you lived and can you please indicate this with appropriate

7 arrows, pointing in the right direction?

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. And can you mark that arrow with the letter --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva?

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise and with great respect,

12 I know you have ruled, but I simply asked the witness to mark certain

13 locations in Nedzarici, because that was his AOR. I did not ask the

14 witness questions about the origin of fire from the ABiH. In fact,

15 Mr. Tapuskovic himself led that evidence in his examination-in-chief. And

16 so in my submission, going back to that subject which is now what the

17 Defence counsel appears to be doing, with these later questions, my

18 submission is that they really do not arise out of cross-examination. I

19 have no problem if the witness is asked to mark certain other locations

20 within Nedzarici or to explain the markings that he has made in

21 cross-examination but now to move on to firing from Stup and Mojmilo when

22 that had been touched upon already -- or not just touched upon but had

23 been dealt with in the examination-in-chief, in my submission, it is --

24 it's redundant now.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the Prosecutor has more

Page 7200

1 specifically explained why your question does not arise out of

2 cross-examination.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to

4 explain. I'm going to ask him. You see here Alipasino Polje and there

5 was a lot of talk about what you can see from the whole -- home of the

6 blind in that direction, where a boy was shot, a young man, and it was

7 insisted that the army of Republika Srpska was firing from these buildings

8 that were facing Alipasino Polje. The Prosecutor insisted that firing

9 came from this area. But I think that it's very important to know that

10 precisely from those locations, and Alipasino Polje, there was intense

11 firing on these positions on which the Prosecutor insisted. So then the

12 next thing that I would ask the witness to tell us would be if there was

13 firing from this direction of Alipasino Polje on the positions indicated

14 here by the Prosecutor as the places from where there was intensive firing

15 upon the positions of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, tell us exactly what you're

18 leading to. Where is this re-examination leading? What is the conclusion

19 that you hope to arrive at?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of this

21 situation that has been marked on the request of the Prosecutor, and with

22 the assistance of the next photograph that will be shown, my interest,

23 which needs to be explained to you and which is important, is that from

24 these lines here, in view of this entire situation that is here surrounded

25 by hills and the tall buildings on Alipasino Polje, the only firing

Page 7201

1 possible was from the cellars of all those buildings and even from the

2 home for the blind. So these were houses, very -- not very high, perhaps

3 two storeys at the most, surrounded by high buildings, which I'm going to

4 show on the following photograph, indicating that any kind of firing from

5 an elevated position would have been ruled out in view of the situation in

6 which this line here where the home of the blind is located towards

7 Alipasino Polje and towards Mojmilo and this will then later be linked

8 with the photograph which is Prosecutor Exhibit P100, in order for us to

9 be able to understand all of this.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva? You wanted to say something?

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, my submission is this: If

12 Mr. Tapuskovic had put a question to the witness asking him whether the

13 only possible position to fire from would have been the cellars, that

14 would have been objectionable in terms of it being leading and now,

15 Mr. Tapuskovic has explained the thesis or explained what he thinks to be

16 the evidence, and my submission is that the witness therefore cannot

17 give -- or his answer is likely to be prejudiced, in my submission. In

18 other words, it has the same effect of asking leading questions to the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: But counsel was really answering the question

21 that I -- that I asked.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may ask the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, could you mark with an arrow the direction fired from

Page 7202

1 upon the line you've indicated, including the home for the blind, by the

2 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. What about Mojmilo?

5 A. [Marks]. I cannot indicate that on the map but as for Mojmilo

6 hill --

7 Q. Thank you. I think this is enough. I'd like to tender this as

8 Defence Exhibit.


10 THE REGISTRAR: As D260, Your Honours.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I cannot mark on

12 this map where the fire came from the direction of Igman, since we cannot

13 see Mount Igman here. [Marks].

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You're trying to tell us that they also acted from that area?

16 A. Yes. They used various artillery pieces. For a while they also

17 had a launcher, an improvised one. They used certain contraptions and it

18 had a lot of explosive power until the device itself exploded somewhere on

19 Igman.

20 Q. This was a spontaneous answer by the witness but I believe it to

21 be important nonetheless. Perhaps we should tender this map anew since he

22 had entered some new markings on it.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As D261, Your Honours.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at

Page 7203

1 the photograph I mentioned? It is Prosecution Exhibit P100. I would

2 kindly ask the usher to provide another pen to the witness of a different

3 colour.

4 Q. Can you circle the buildings in this photograph from which there

5 was firing against the positions held by you, first and foremost having in

6 mind the building marked with an S?

7 A. [Marks]. I think one should mark the entire complex in the

8 background, the one that we can't see entirely.

9 Q. Thank you. Behind the building marked with an S and the circles

10 that we can see in the corners shown to you yesterday, across the line

11 which separates the photograph into two parts, were there any buildings

12 from which one could open fire upon you as well as in some other

13 directions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you indicate those?

16 A. These buildings here, this area. [Marks].

17 Q. Could you mark the area with the letter M?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Put an H in the biggest circle?

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. And the right-hand side area should be marked with a G.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. What is the name of the settlement?

24 A. Alipasino Polje and Vjnicko Polje.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

Page 7204

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence.

2 Mr. Sachdeva were you trying to rise?

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm minded not to, although I wonder

4 whether I would be permitted to ask some questions of the witness, since

5 again in my submission, this could have been put to the witness in the

6 examination-in-chief.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I forgot. This

8 photograph should be tendered as a Defence Exhibit.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let it be exhibited.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As D262, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I think not, because the Chamber

12 had ruled that the questions did arise.

13 Witness, this concludes your evidence. We thank you for coming to

14 the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I thank you

16 for your patience.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness will not require

20 much time. It is Witness T-5. And he enjoys certain protective measures,

21 this being a pseudonym and image distortion.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Page 7205


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated. You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to introduce this

5 witness to the Court, we shall have to make use of document DD00388.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: D003989.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this document

9 under seal.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As D263, under seal, Your Honours.


13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move into

14 private session for a while?


16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7206

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I have been allocated a very short period of time for your

18 examination and I would kindly ask you to be as brief as possible. When

19 the events began evolving in Sarajevo in 1992, where were you and what did

20 you do?

21 A. I used to live in Nedzarici until 1992. I stayed there until the

22 18th of May 1992, until I saw people being killed and houses being set on

23 fire. I moved out of there, together with my child. We moved to

24 Kasindol.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness --

Page 7207

1 A. To the hospital.

2 Q. Where is the hospital in Kasindol and how long did you stay there?

3 A. The Kasindol hospital is about three to four kilometres away from

4 Nedzarici itself. I think it's about three to four kilometres. I'm not

5 particularly certain of that. We were received there as refugees.

6 Q. Thank you. How many days did you stay there?

7 A. I stayed there for 10 days.

8 Q. Thank you. Where did you go next, briefly, please?

9 A. From there, I went to Grbavica in Sarajevo. Grbavica was a part

10 of Sarajevo.

11 Q. Thank you. What about Kasindol? Where was that?

12 A. Kasindol is also in Sarajevo. Bratska [phoen] municipality.

13 Q. Where did you stay for the rest of the war?

14 A. I stayed in Grbavica throughout the war until the Dayton Accords.

15 Q. And can you please describe, in the briefest possible way, what

16 life was like in Grbavica? How did you live in Grbavica at the time?

17 A. I was in basements throughout that period in Grbavica, together

18 with other residents who were there in that building. There were Muslims,

19 Croats and Serbs there, all those who lived there before the war.

20 Q. Can you go just a little bit faster? Just a little bit faster.

21 And can you describe what life was like initially and what were you able

22 to notice? If you were in the basement, were you able to see anything

23 from there or hear anything?

24 A. We were in basements or cellars because of safety, because you

25 could hear shooting all day long in Grbavica. We spent the whole time

Page 7208

1 there. We had a radio, although there was no electricity. It was a

2 battery-operated radio. We listened to reports every day, what was

3 happening.

4 Q. Just one moment, please. And can you please tell me how you

5 lived, in terms of just ordinary activities?

6 A. We spent the whole day in the basement, and at night we would

7 supply ourselves with food and water and we were able to go out during the

8 night. During the day, we didn't dare to because there was shooting,

9 constant shooting.

10 Q. Thank you. And what did you find out from listening to the radio?

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Objection. Two objections, Mr. President. Number

12 1, to relevancy. I've hesitated to rise on a question of relevancy

13 because the witness has obviously been through a very difficult time, but

14 we have a witness here who has all but disqualified herself as a witness

15 by saying that she spent any time that she would have had an opportunity

16 to observe relevant events in a basement, unable to see, and I also put

17 it, again I understand of course that hearsay evidence is admissible but

18 if the question is what the witness heard on the radio, there are far

19 better sources of transcripts of news programmes available than relying on

20 the years past memory of a witness, and I respectfully put it to the

21 Chamber that particularly in a situation where better and more reliable

22 evidence is available, that evidence such as this should not be admitted

23 and I again stress I do not rise on a point of hearsay because I

24 understand that that is admissible. I rise on a point of reliability.

25 Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7209

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will hear what the witness has to say but I'd

2 like Mr. Tapuskovic, at all times, to extract from the witness the basis

3 of her knowledge.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you're absolutely

5 right, and I did make a mistake. In fact, she mentioned the radio. What

6 I wanted to ask her first, however, was that if she was able to notice

7 anything by herself from the basement throughout that period. This is

8 what I wanted to ask her about. But then she mentioned the radio, and I

9 wanted to expand on that but, of course, I would like to ask the witness

10 first what she herself was able to see, and was she able to see anything

11 of the events at Grbavica.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Lay the foundation for the witness's

13 knowledge.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, please, you said that throughout that time period, and

16 we'll see whether it was the entire period or later, that you spent that

17 in the basement. Were you able to -- was it possible to see anything of

18 what was going on outside from the basement?

19 A. The basement where we were had small windows through which you

20 could see everything that was going on in the street. Every day I would

21 watch civilians getting killed on the streets, and we were helpless to

22 assist them because we were also exposed to danger. I personally saw when

23 a boy was hit. His mother went up to him to help. The mother was also

24 hit. And they remained there on the street until it got dark. No one was

25 able to help them.

Page 7210

1 Q. And can you please tell me if, at any point, there was a time when

2 such things were not so frequent?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, whether they are frequent or not, would you

4 explain the relevance of this evidence?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, this is the

6 continuation of what we were talking about. It's an incident this she

7 remembers very well and I intend to ask her further how often such things

8 happened and if after that, during those war years, there was ever a

9 period when it was easier, and that is why I believe that what is

10 important, in terms of this witness, is for the witness first to describe

11 what they were able to see and that we get from her testimony the terror

12 that they were subjected to, also the problem related to the campaign that

13 is referred to in the indictment, and whether at some stage what the

14 Prosecution calls here a campaign could have been eliminated and for her

15 actually to talk about things that relate to the essence of the

16 indictment, especially during the period relating to General Milosevic.

17 What she's talking about is up to some certain period and then later there

18 was a different situation and then all of these things that had to do with

19 this campaign and that are related to the terror that they were subjected

20 to, the dangers that their children were exposed to, and everything that

21 the civilians were subjected to, all this in Sarajevo itself.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is not clear to me is that if one agrees

23 that they did suffer terror, that they were exposed to terror, how is that

24 relevant to the indictment which charges the accused with inflicting,

25 through his troops, a campaign of terror on civilians? How do you answer

Page 7211

1 that charge by adducing evidence that this witness and her neighbours did,

2 in fact, experience terror themselves? We are back to the theme of Serb

3 suffering.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never put in

5 question at any point in time anybody's suffering. What I wish to show is

6 that the time period of the indictment was completely different, and that

7 there was no campaign at that time in relation to anyone, not in relation

8 to civilians either, and that that time, at the end of a period that

9 refers to General Milosevic, some things occurred that had nothing to do

10 with the intention of the army of Republika Srpska to cause suffering in

11 any way for anyone, and that that was -- there was a long period where

12 there was no such campaign, and when the army of Republika Srpska did not

13 ever have, as its cause, especially not things that relate to General

14 Milosevic, not in any of the neighbourhoods, Nedzarici, Dobrinja and

15 others in this broader period which all these areas that constitute the

16 area of Sarajevo, all of this which was a product of permanent conflicts

17 which were considerably reduced at the time and there was absolutely

18 nothing that could have been described as a campaign so that all of that

19 together, directly disputes the things that are cited in the indictment,

20 if we view that further in the context of the positions that were occupied

21 at the time.

22 In any case, I think that this witness, in view of what she went

23 through, would be able to tell us something to the effect that, for a

24 considerable period of time, it was possible to go out into the street,

25 that there was no such campaign, and to show you in that way that the

Page 7212

1 indictment, the way it is formulated in relation to the time period in

2 which the responsibility is ascribed to the accused, Dragomir Milosevic,

3 is something that had absolutely not the qualification of a campaign,

4 which occupies a central point in the indictment, as an action that is

5 dominating in the whole of the indictment.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty?

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, with all respect to my learned friend

8 Mr. Tapuskovic, I think if this witness had been inside the confrontation

9 line and said that for a while, for periods of time, there was no terror

10 that might be relevant evidence. I stress might. Here we have a witness

11 though who was in Grbavica on the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation

12 lines in a basement observing things through a window and cannot speak

13 about what was going on with civilians inside the confrontation lines and

14 therefore, I renew the relevancy objection I made sometime ago and that

15 the court on its own initiative raised with respect to the pending

16 question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: He insists that the witness will give evidence to

18 the effect that there was no campaign of terror. What isn't clear to me

19 is how he intends to achieve that because the witness is merely giving

20 evidence of terror that she suffered. This is -- we have been through

21 this before but I still don't quite grasp it, Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 Just a minute.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague, Mr. Docherty, has

Page 7213

1 just stated what is being accentuated all the time. Inside of what? This

2 witness was inside this concept of inside. So that is an area that could

3 not have been separated from that concept which is being constantly

4 defined as "inside" or "within." She was inside and within. So I

5 specifically wanted to hear why she was in the basement for a long, long

6 time and then to explain when this stopped for a little bit and how life

7 was at that time, and then to specifically testify about what she saw and

8 directly experienced and how, during those war years, there was a phase

9 during which it was possible to breathe and live, and that is something

10 that is important. So the witness is going to come. I wasn't able be

11 to--

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is it important? We are not interested in

13 whether there was a time in which it was possible to breathe and live. We

14 are not writing a history of the Sarajevo conflict.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would have to

16 open the indictment. What dominates in the indictment is a campaign of

17 activities against civilians and civilian facilities. That is the main

18 count of the indictment. This terror based on a permanent campaign to

19 exclusively fire on civilians and the civilian population, and that that

20 campaign, as I said last time, had it not been explained, Your Honours,

21 countless times and probably I'll have to do it again and last time I

22 already talked about that, that the Prosecution, a month before the

23 indictment period begins, had they not changed the indictment and set out

24 from the untenable position that Dragomir Milosevic inherited the campaign

25 from Galic, that he took over and continued with it, believe me, I

Page 7214

1 wouldn't have mentioned 1991 or 1992 or 1993 or a large amount of 1994,

2 and I would have started from the 12th of August 1994, two days after that

3 the agreement was signed which alleviated the situation for a few months.

4 I would have dealt with that. And as Defence counsel representing

5 Dragomir Milosevic, I would have been in a much easier position.

6 After the Prosecution amended the indictment, stating that

7 Dragomir Milosevic inherited this campaign, I had to deal with that

8 problem. I already talked about that several times, how that looked in

9 those previous few years and after, how that --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the amendment admittedly does let in some

11 evidence from 1991-1992. But the evidence still has to relate to the

12 indictment. And that's what is not at all clear to me. It seems to be

13 just evidence about her suffering and, of course, we are very sorry for

14 that, and I'd like to assure her that she has our full sympathy. But we

15 don't find this evidence relevant, Mr. Tapuskovic. So move on to another

16 area and see whether you can extract from this witness evidence that is

17 relevant to the indictment.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It means that each and every time

19 I will have to deal with this issue of inheriting the campaign. If I do

20 away with it, it will make my job far easier.

21 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber what the end of 1994 was like, what

22 was your life like at the time?

23 A. By the end of 1994, things got much calmer. We could move about.

24 We went out. We were much more free to move, until June 1995, when, in

25 Grbavica, there was so much firing taking place there that we had no idea

Page 7215

1 what was happening. That was the most difficult period, which lasted

2 until the Dayton Accords were signed.

3 Q. Since you said that, I would kindly ask you to -- and after that,

4 I'll conclude shortly. Could you please tell us, since you lived under

5 the circumstances you described, meaning you could go out in the street

6 and move more freely; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What could you hear over the radio at that time, before that and

9 at that time.

10 A. Over the radio, we listened to the Muslim media non-stop. They

11 boasted of killing numbers or scores of Serbian soldiers and they never

12 mentioned civilians, whereas they described the situation on their side

13 completely the opposite. They said that only civilians were being killed,

14 whereas not a single soldier was lost on their part. We felt that this

15 was adding insult to injury.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President.


18 MR. DOCHERTY: I renew the relevancy objection previously made.

19 The witness -- I can't stress enough the witness has my full sympathy and

20 I don't like to get up in a courtroom and quickly say that what she has to

21 say is not relevant but unfortunately it is not relevant. If the witness

22 has something to say about what was going on in the area under the command

23 of the ABiH, the area where civilians were being terrorised, the

24 Prosecution submits, by troops under the command of the accused, I would

25 certainly have no relevancy objection to that but we continue simply to

Page 7216

1 hear of what is going on outside the confrontation lines in SKR-controlled

2 territory and I submit that it simply is not relevant.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We agree it's not relevant,

4 Mr. Tapuskovic. It may very well be that the witness has no evidence to

5 give that's relevant. And I would very much regret that because she has

6 been brought here. But if that is the case, then, let us reach that point

7 very quickly.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the reason for this

9 witness being here was stated by the witness herself. She said that as of

10 the fall of 1994, until summer 1995, they lived in a normal way. She

11 didn't say that during that period she felt threatened in any way, that

12 her life was in danger, and this is what is directly relevant to the

13 indictment. She also stated that after that, there was mayhem and horror

14 as described by her. And that horror was created because of the

15 activities of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The witness may not know

16 that but it was caused by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is our

17 case. For a full eight months, when things went as normal, and then there

18 was chaos. It is Defence's position that this chaos was caused by an

19 all-out offensive by the ABiH. This lady is here to confirm to that you

20 life went on as usual for almost eight months. She confirmed that. This

21 should be weighed ...

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, the campaign alleged by the

24 indictment, was it confined to the area covered by the confrontation

25 line?

Page 7217

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Give me a moment, Your Honour, and I'll get the

2 exact language from the indictment.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, perhaps you can address that

4 matter as well, since it is important to the question that we are now

5 considering.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not refer to

7 each and every paragraph, but if we start with paragraph 5 and then go

8 through all the rest --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Paragraph 5. Let us look at them individually.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In paragraph 5, it says under the

11 effective control of Dragomir Milosevic conducted a campaign of sniping

12 and shelling against the civilian population of Sarajevo.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What the Prosecutor is saying is that for the

14 evidence to be relevant, it must relate to the area covered by the

15 confrontation line. That may be an overly narrow view, Mr. Docherty.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: With respect, Your Honour, I really don't think

17 so. The indictment read in a commonsensical manner and as a whole clearly

18 indicates that the defendant -- or the accused, excuse me, perpetrated a

19 campaign of terror against, it does say civilian areas of Sarajevo. Every

20 single scheduled incident put forth in this indictment relates to areas

21 inside the confrontation line. It is no way a defence to the charge of

22 terror or any other charge in the indictment to show that people in --

23 outside the confrontation lines had lulls during which they could go about

24 their daily business and I would also point out that the lull that has

25 been testified to by this witness is a so-called lull that relates to --

Page 7218

1 that -- in which a large number of the Prosecution's scheduled incidents

2 occurred.

3 To say that, well, there was not fighting in this particular area

4 for a while and it's an area that was under the command of the SRK in the

5 first place is really no defence and as I say, an indictment ought not to

6 be parsed out line by line. It ought to be read as a whole which is the

7 way it's written which is the way it gives notice to the accused of the

8 charges he has to meet, and this indictment clearly alleges a campaign of

9 terror against civilians in Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, the -- you heard that. The point

11 he's making is that when you read the indictment as a whole, his

12 submission is that the campaign relates to the confrontation lines,

13 civilians living within the confrontation lines.

14 Would you care to point us to other paragraphs which support the

15 position that you're taking?

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, look, for example, at counts 5 to

18 7.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: That's what I was just --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Conducted a campaign, in the fourth line, of

21 artillery and mortar and modified air bomb shelling on to civilian areas

22 of Sarajevo and upon its civilian population.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: That's right.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is no geographical demarcation there. The

25 only one is to Sarajevo. But I imagine you would answer that by saying

Page 7219

1 that when you look at the context in which the case arises, when you look

2 at the case as a whole, the campaign was confined to the confrontation

3 lines. The thinking that I'm developing is along these lines, that

4 Mr. Tapuskovic is saying that the lull in the fighting in the area where

5 this witness lived, albeit some distance from the confrontation lines,

6 assists in contradicting the Prosecution's case that there was a campaign,

7 which has an element of continuity.

8 No. I -- Let me just finish the thought that I'm having, which is

9 that the evidence may be admissible. At the end of the day, at the end of

10 the case, the Chamber will have to determine what weight it attaches to

11 it. It may say this deserves very little or no weight but I don't know

12 whether that your point is sufficient to warrant its exclusion, to say

13 that it is irrelevant.



16 MR. DOCHERTY: Okay. While the Court was consulting I was looking

17 by coincidence at the very same language, and I draw attention, with

18 respect, to the way in which this campaign was said to be carried out,

19 beginning again with the 4th line conducted a campaign -- or excuse me,

20 Bosnian Serb forces comprising or attached to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

21 and/or forces affiliated with the VRS conducted a campaign of artillery

22 and mortar and modified air bomb shelling on to civilian areas of Sarajevo

23 and upon its civilian population.

24 Unless we are going to go down the road of the SRK was shelling

25 areas under its own command and sniping them and air bombing them, there

Page 7220

1 is, I respectfully submit, no interpretation of this indictment other than

2 that the SRK was sniping and mortaring and artillery firing and modified

3 air bomb launching on to areas not under its control. And if we look at

4 the top of this same page, there is a carry-over from the previous page,

5 again talking about the civilian population of Sarajevo, killing and

6 wounding a large number of them, and then the last line, before the -- the

7 last line of that carry-over paragraph specific instances of these attacks

8 include by way of illustrative allegations those incidents set forth in

9 the first schedule to this indictment and there is similar language at the

10 end of the 5 to 7 shelling counts.

11 The illustrative allegations, the scheduled incidents, all occur

12 within the confrontation lines. The campaign is alleged to be carried out

13 by sniping and shelling and launching air bombs by the SRK or forces

14 affiliated with the SRK. And I -- to bring a witness who says, well, but

15 on territory under the control of the SRK things were fine from time to

16 time, does not contradict the evidence of the Prosecution witnesses who

17 have testified in this trial that they were on trams and were shot during

18 this lull, that air bombs landed in among other places, Hrasnica, during

19 this lull. The witness has talked about, I believe, the fall of 1995 as

20 being the end of the lull so this includes the launching the air bomb on

21 to the television tower occurring during this lull. Things were probably

22 indeed better outside the confrontation lines but I respectfully submit

23 that that is not relevant to meeting the case that the Prosecution has put

24 forward.

25 And then my last point would be that at no time during our

Page 7221

1 Prosecution case comprising some months did we lead evidence concerning

2 SRK attacks on SRK-controlled positions, and the indictment, I

3 respectfully submit, does need to be interpreted in light of the case, in

4 the context of the case, that the Prosecution has put forward. Thank you,

5 Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Docherty.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a difficult issue. The Chamber, however,

9 concludes that the evidence is not relevant, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me to

11 respond to what my learned friend --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I don't want a response. We have had

13 several arguments from the -- from you. I've heard you at least twice and

14 I've heard the Prosecutor the same number of times. And we have ruled.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours. I

16 will not question the witness further. But please, I must respond to what

17 Mr. Docherty has said, in order to deal with what we will soon hear from

18 other witnesses. I must respond to what Mr. Docherty has just said.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. We have -- I have ruled and we should move

20 on. If you have other arguments which may arise in relation to the

21 evidence of other witnesses, then you can bring those arguments at that

22 time, during their testimony. But we've heard both sides on this issue.

23 I'm satisfied that I have given you a hearing on this question, and I've

24 given the Prosecutor a hearing, and I've given my ruling.

25 Let us move on.

Page 7222

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, of course there is nothing

2 I can do, Your Honours, in this situation, but I have not been given an

3 opportunity to raise two or three important points in relation to what the

4 Prosecutor has said about the confrontation line. I have not had the

5 opportunity to explain this in order for this witness's evidence to be

6 understood.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we have heard from you, and we

8 have heard enough on this issue to enable us to come to a decision, and we

9 have given that decision.

10 Do you have any other evidence from this witness?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question.

12 Q. Did you have any knowledge at all about where Grbavica was fired

13 at from? As regards its geographical location, where were the hills? And

14 did you know what the situation in Grbavica was like and who was where?

15 A. It was mostly from Mojmilo and Debelo Brdo and Loris that shots

16 were fired at Grbavica. From Loris there was a sniper firing all the

17 time. I lived in that area and we couldn't even peep out.

18 Q. And what is Loris?

19 A. I heard that on television and the radio that that was where most

20 of the shots were fired from, from Loris, and this was held by the

21 Muslims.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. They boasted on the media.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty?

Page 7223

1 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no cross-examination for this witness,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

4 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a break, a break for 20 minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter].

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Be seated.

16 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. Witness, before you begin answering my questions, I would like to

20 tell you that we should both bear in mind that you should begin answering

21 only when the text you see appearing on the monitor before you stops.

22 Witness, can you tell Their Honours your first and last name?

23 A. My name is Radomir Visnjic.

24 Q. Thank you. You were born on the 11th of May 1942. Just say yes

25 or no.

Page 7224

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were born in the town of Olovo near Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You completed primary school in Han Pijesak?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please wait for the text on the monitor to stop before answering.

7 You completed your secondary school for economics and the first

8 two years of the faculty of economics in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you have been living in Sarajevo since 1962 in your family

11 house at Vrace overlooking Grbavica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You worked in the factory called Zrak in Sarajevo; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please, could you tell Their Honours the following? Like every

17 citizen of the former federal -- Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

18 you served in the JNA. Can you explain?

19 A. Yes. All able-bodied men who had a university education, were

20 sent to a reserve officers school, and we attended a course which lasted

21 for 12 months, and then we became reserve second lieutenants. After that,

22 when there were exercises, military exercises, we would be called to

23 participate and then we might be promoted to the rank of Lieutenant or

24 captain and so on.

25 Q. Thank you. When did you serve in the army of that former country?

Page 7225

1 A. From 1968, from late March 1968, to 1969, sometime around the 17th

2 of March.

3 Q. Thank you. You remember the dates. And after that, did you have

4 anything to do with the JNA apart from the obligatory exercises that all

5 citizens had to participate in from time to time?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. Do you know when in that system that we lived in, the communist

8 system prevailing at the time, the so-called Territorial Defence was

9 established?

10 A. The Territorial Defence was established after the so-called

11 constitution of 1974 when the republics of Yugoslavia were granted more or

12 less the same rights as states, and each country -- or rather each

13 republic had its own territorial forces which had certain weapons, which

14 they -- of which they were the owners.

15 Q. And where were these weapons kept from 1974 onwards?

16 A. Well, I couldn't tell you precisely all the places where these

17 weapons were kept, but as far as I know, those weapons were stored in

18 various military districts such as the Sarajevo district, the Zenica

19 district, the Tuzla, Banja Luka, Mostar districts, and so on.

20 Q. Thank you. Quite specifically, you lived at Vrace. Did you know

21 where weapons were kept there?

22 A. Well, to be specific, I lived at Vrace, but I did not know where

23 the weapons were stored. I did learn later on that they were stored up

24 there -- I can't remember the precise name of the place where the weapons

25 were stored, but it was in the direction of Kosevo. I'm not sure however.

Page 7226

1 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in 1974, did you understand what these

2 weapons were for, what purpose they served, their being stored among the

3 people?

4 A. Well, as far as I can recall, there were certain people, educated

5 people, who, in a very discreet manner, criticised this fact. They

6 thought that the republics had been given too much independence and they

7 had weapons. As there was a single JNA, that was supposed to be the

8 guarantee of our common state of Yugoslavia. However, this criticism was

9 not taken into account, and what was done was done.

10 Q. And did you know what happened in 1991 and what these Territorial

11 Defences turned into, starting from Slovenia all the way to

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Well, what the critics had been saying since 1974 proved to be

14 true, because the Slovenian territorials killed a certain number of

15 members of the JNA which up to that point had been the joint army. In

16 Slovenia there were Bosnian soldiers, Macedonian soldiers, Croatian

17 soldiers, Serb soldiers, and on the other hand, in our parts, there were

18 Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs and Croats serving in the JNA.

19 Q. Thank you. So what did these Territorial Defences turn into in

20 Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. Well, they became armed forces which were subordinated to their

22 own republican commands. The Slovenian to the Republic of Slovenia, the

23 Croatian Territorial Defence to Tudjman, if I may say, as the President of

24 Croatia. And in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it became divided

25 into three parts because we had three constituent nations, Croats, Muslims

Page 7227

1 and Serbs. The Croats and the Muslims were in one community and we Serbs

2 were separate, and then --

3 Q. Thank you. And you said the Croats and the Muslims were in a

4 single community but did this last throughout the conflict?

5 A. No. They acted together, jointly, until 1993, and I think that in

6 1993, conflicts broke out between the Croats and the Muslims, and I must

7 tell Their Honours that at the Nis plateau, when the Muslims attacked the

8 Croats from Breza, our forces pulled out a large number of Croats and sent

9 them on towards Kiseljak and they were very grateful to us. But then they

10 assisted some of our forces in Zenica and other parts.

11 Q. Very well. Now, let's move to the specific situation. Where were

12 you employed from -- well, after completing your education? In which

13 factory did you work?

14 A. I worked in a factory called Zrak in Sarajevo. It produced

15 civilian and military equipment. The civilian equipment we produced were

16 glasses. We produced electrical equipment for military vehicles, and

17 microscopes for laboratories, civilian laboratories. We also produced

18 binoculars used for hunting. For the army we produced snipers and other

19 equipment, according to the orders we received. For example, the JNA

20 might order certain kinds of equipment and the contract would be drawn up

21 and then it would be executed.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell Their Honours what work you did?

23 A. I was in the commercial department. I was the chief of the

24 department for the import of optical parts. I cooperated with a company

25 in Delft. I -- or rather a company in Frankfurt, where I travelled often.

Page 7228

1 Q. Where was this factory?

2 A. In a place called Buca Potok. If you look down from Vrace towards

3 the hill of Hum on the left side of Hum there is a valley in which our

4 factory was located, the factory of Zrak Sarajevo.

5 Q. Until when were you able to go to work in Buca Potok?

6 A. I was able to go to Buca Potok until around the 15th of May. That

7 was my last day at work. After that, I was no longer able to go there

8 because in the area around Buca Potok and below Hum in a place called

9 Pofalici, on the 18th of May there was a fierce attack by the BH army, and

10 18 people were killed and 28 wounded. Our people, both civilians and

11 soldiers. And after that, one could no longer reach Zrak.

12 Q. And what did you do then? How did you behave subsequently and

13 what happened?

14 A. Well, when this started, the way it did, then we had to

15 self-organise and we had to protect our homes, our families, so that on

16 the right side, towards the Jewish cemetery, we set up our own defence

17 lines and then down towards the Miljacka river, practically to the Vrbanja

18 bridge, all the way to the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo street.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 A. That's the Grbavica part.

21 Q. Do you know when General Dragomir Milosevic became the commander

22 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

23 A. General Milosevic, according to what I know, came in August. I

24 think it was in mid-August 1994.

25 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me, if you know, when approximately

Page 7229

1 the Yugoslav People's Army left the area around Sarajevo, and Sarajevo?

2 A. The evacuation and the departure of the JNA units from Sarajevo

3 was done according to the last deadline, that was the 20th of May. That's

4 when the Yugoslav People's Army left the centre area and the part where

5 the main command of General Kukanjac was. This was in Bistrik street.

6 They also left the other barracks in the direction of Nedzarici. So they

7 all left by the 20th of May.

8 Q. What happened with the soldiers who were leaving that area in that

9 period? You can just give us a few indications about that.

10 A. Well, I'm telling you the truth, Your Honours, that on the 2nd and

11 the 3rd of May, there was a massacre that was committed. This is all well

12 known. This was done by the paramilitary or actual military forces in

13 Skenderija, when innocent officers, non-commissioned officers, doctors,

14 nurses, medical technicians were killed. 42 were killed, 75 were

15 injured. These were all staff and 242 soldiers were captured.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty?

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I think we have been over this

18 ground before. The information concerning events in 1992 has been held by

19 the Chamber to be not relevant, with the limited exception of attempts at

20 rebutting paragraph 7 of the indictment, and I submit that the evidence

21 just led by Mr. Tapuskovic is, consistent with those earlier rulings, not

22 relevant and not admissible.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just clarify. The Chamber has not ruled

24 that evidence relating to 1992 is relevant. We are dealing with each case

25 on its own merits. When an objection is made, we'll examine the objection

Page 7230

1 and determine whether the evidence is relevant. We haven't made a ruling

2 that applies to 1992 as a whole. So we'll now look at this objection that

3 you have made. We'll hear from Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Docherty didn't wait for my

5 next question, and it would then be easier for me to explain this for you

6 but here I am again in the situation of needing to deal with this issue.

7 The beginning of the conflict is something that is particularly emphasised

8 in the indictment, the indictment insists on the Sarajevo locality and the

9 indictment insists on a series of other things pertaining to the start of

10 the conflict, without which there would be absolutely nothing in the area

11 where for 40 years those three people lived together in harmony, and the

12 beginning is covered by the indictment and we always have to go back to

13 count 7, where very important things are discussed in relation to the

14 position of those who took part in that conflict subsequently.

15 This witness knows a lot about that and I think he explained very

16 ably to you what the circumstances were that preceded the conflict and we

17 have just now reached the situation which forced the people who lived

18 there after the events at Pofalici and Buca Potok and after what the

19 Yugoslav People's Army went through, to take up arms. He said earlier

20 that he would have never have taken up arms usually but he was forced to

21 stand and defend his home, his hearth, and he's going to tell you what his

22 experiences are in relation to this and the beginnings which led to the

23 tragic events are very important. They are covered by the indictment here

24 in paragraph 7. It is very well put.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Paragraph 7.

Page 7231

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Even it says that the

2 conflict broke out in Sarajevo very quickly after the 7th of April 1992,

3 when Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally recognised. And then it

4 says even before this date, armed forces supporting the Serbian Democratic

5 Party and elements of the JNA including units of the 4th Corps occupied

6 strategic positions in and around Sarajevo, the city was subsequently

7 subjected to blockade and relentless bombardment and sniper attacks. Much

8 of the bombardment and sniping was from positions in the hills around and

9 overlooking Sarajevo from which the attackers had a clear detailed and

10 commanding view of the city and its civilian population. This witness

11 will specifically deal and explain -- deal with and explain what the

12 situation was on the 7th of April, what the positions were that were taken

13 up, and if we continue, you will see, as in count 8, on or around 20th --

14 8th [as interpreted] 1992 and we just talked about that, after a partial

15 withdrawal of JNA forces from Bosnia, and this witness explained.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will allow this evidence, but bring

17 the witness to 1994 as quickly as possible.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, and, in

19 particular, this, the JNA practically transformed into part of the newly

20 established army of Republika Srpska. So these are crucial positions of

21 the Prosecution, and these are matters that I wish to question the witness

22 about.

23 Q. Please, the place where you lived, how did you organise

24 yourselves? In what way? Does the JNA have anything to do with whatever

25 the place was where you were?

Page 7232

1 A. No. They had nothing to do with that. We practically used our

2 reserve officers and non-commissioned officers from the former JNA, and we

3 received some weapons from the former JNA. In the beginning we had some

4 hunting weapons, whoever happened to have something, and we created

5 platoons and companies but this was still part of the TO, the Territorial

6 Defence, brigades of the Novo Sarajevo municipality which started to

7 operate. We put up the defence lines in order to stop them from killing

8 our wives, our children and burning our property.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I interrupted the witness as he

10 was saying that he stayed there in order to defend his house and his

11 property. That wasn't entered in the transcript. If need be, the witness

12 can repeat.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We organised ourselves because that

14 was a TO brigade of Novo Sarajevo municipality. We had platoons and

15 companies that merged in order to protect the population that was in

16 danger between the Jewish cemetery and the hill of Hum, as well as to the

17 hill that was to my left. To my right, there was Debelo Brdo and to the

18 left, well, I cannot recall the name, as well as towards the Miljacka.

19 Grbavica is there. I described it already between the Jewish cemetery and

20 the Vrbanja bridge all the way down to the brotherhood unity bridge and

21 the stadium of Sdelznica. To my left towards Mojmilo and to my right was

22 Debelo Brdo held by the forces of...

23 Q. Thank you. We have to go back to the time for which you said that

24 in the second part of August 1994, Dragomir Milosevic was appointed

25 commander of the SRK. I have to show you a map. It is a 65 ter document

Page 7233

1 2872. Once you have the map before you, I'd like to ask to you explain or

2 to show the positions at which you were.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, please? A bit

4 more and down, downwards. No, sorry, up. Thank you.

5 Q. Before I ask you anything about the positions that you had

6 occupied, can you please say when this Territorial Defence and your

7 self-organising turned into activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

8 A. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps went into operation -- well, actually

9 our TO belonged to the 1st Sarajevo Brigade -- in 1992. This was sometime

10 in June, in early June.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you please indicate where your house is?

12 A. My house is here. This is the Dervisa Numica [phoen] street now.

13 Across from there was the Aleksa Bojevic cultural hall and immediately

14 next to it was our infirmary.

15 Q. Well, you need to make the circle.

16 A. [Marks]. That was here. My house was on that road. And to the

17 left of that was the cultural hall and the infirmary or the medical

18 station, and that was destroyed on the 10th of June. It was shelled from

19 Mojmilo hill.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You need to wait for the question,

21 Mr. Visnjic. Yes. Can you please explain -- okay, that's where your

22 house was, and now you need to tell me when the lines of separation were

23 formed between the VRS and the ABiH and can you please draw in these lines

24 of separation on this map, from your positions?

25 A. From my positions at Vrace and Grbavica, this is the area of Vrace

Page 7234

1 where positions were held in this area, in the direction of Miljacka and

2 then it goes there in the direction of the Jewish cemetery, where Debelo

3 Brdo is, and here were the forces of the -- [Marks].

4 Q. Please don't rush, Mr. Visnjic. Just wait for the question.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Where is Debelo Brdo or rather Mojmilo and can you please circle

7 that?

8 A. [Marks]. Mojmilo is exactly in this area here, and that was under

9 the control --

10 Q. Take it slowly, please. Just indicate it.

11 A. This is where Mojmilo was [Marks]. That was occupied by the B and

12 H federation forces.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. And what was the position of the hill in

14 relation to the location of your house?

15 A. That is elevation 680 or 690, as far as I know. So from Mojmilo

16 they had an overview of the entire Vrace, to Grbavica, over the Zeljo

17 Stadium, all the way down to the Miljacka.

18 Q. Thank you. And which was Vrace elevation?

19 A. The Vrace elevation was at some 480 metres.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you please mark the Mojmilo circle with the letter

21 M?

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. And can you please indicate where Debelo Brdo is? Can you please

24 mark it?

25 A. Debelo Brdo was to the right here. [Marks]. And I think that

Page 7235

1 that was at an elevation of 750 metres. So it was higher. And it was the

2 vantage point that would cover our entire right side, and this one would

3 cover our left side from Mojmilo. So we were constantly under bursts of

4 fire from the B and H army. From Debelo Brdo you can control the depth

5 towards Miljevic and Lukavica.

6 Q. Just one moment, please. Mr. Visnjic, please don't hurry, just

7 wait for my questions. When was this line of separation definitely set,

8 the line of separation between the VRS and the ABiH? And when I say that,

9 I mean in every respect.

10 A. It was definitely established in July, the lines of Republika

11 Srpska and the B and H army. During the war, they changed to a certain

12 extent, though.

13 Q. You talked about April and the pullout of the JNA. You said in

14 July. What was the date and what does this refer to that this was

15 definite on the 18th of July or whatever date you said? Did you say July

16 or June?

17 A. Yes, July. I think that Republika Srpska at the time headed by

18 Radovan Karadzic, who was in charge --

19 Q. Let's leave Radovan Karadzic aside. What I'm asking you is when

20 the definite lines were established. You indicated Mojmilo here and

21 Debelo Brdo. Is there anything about Zlatiste?

22 A. As far as Zlatiste that is something -- Zlatiste was our only

23 road, the only way out from Grbavica towards Pale.

24 Q. Just one moment, just one moment, please. I'm asking you when the

25 army of Republika Srpska began also to control Zlatiste.

Page 7236

1 A. As late as the 16th of July 1992, we managed to occupy Zlatiste.

2 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at the map and its western part.

3 Or, rather, let us save this map as it is, as a Defence Exhibit.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you asking for this to be an exhibit,

5 Mr. Tapuskovic?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As D264, Your Honours.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could we please have this map shown again, but without any

11 markings and we should try to focus on its eastern part. I don't seem to

12 get -- to be able to get my bearings on this map -- towards the east, yes,

13 yes, thank you.

14 Witness, please mark the spot where your unit was. But first of

15 all, tell us which unit was it that you led and commanded? What were you

16 at the time when Dragomir Milosevic was appointed commander?

17 A. I was assistant commander for logistics, and I had to supply food

18 and other amenities for the soldiers. And therefore I had to visit the

19 lines often in order to receive suggestions and comments from the soldiers

20 as to whether they were happy with the food and supplies, whether they had

21 anything that they objected to and so on and so forth. And this included

22 all of our positions there.

23 Q. What was not recorded in the transcript was that he was assistant

24 commander. The witness was assistant commander for logistics. He was

25 assistant commander to the battalion commander. It's still not there.

Page 7237

1 Now it's okay.

2 Show me the place of your unit where you were during the war, and

3 make a circle around it. You mentioned Vrace.

4 A. Yes. I will repeat. [Marks]. This was the line at Vrace. It

5 went by the Jewish cemetery all the way to the bridge. That was our AOR.

6 Q. Where were you specifically?

7 A. My position was at Prljavo Brdo, three kilometres away from my

8 house that I had marked.

9 Q. Put a circle around the area where you were.

10 A. [Marks]. There you go.

11 Q. Draw a line at which you were until the 18th of July -- no, the

12 16th of July, starting from Vrace.

13 A. On the 16th of July, it's where the circle is. That was the area

14 of responsibility of our forces.

15 Q. And now towards Zlatiste?

16 A. Towards Zlatiste to the right-hand side we held positions up to

17 Zlatiste itself, and below Debelo Brdo. There was an elevation higher

18 than Zlatiste.

19 Q. Please, Mr. Visnjic.

20 A. But Zlatiste I mentioned was the only road towards Pale.

21 Q. Please stop. You started drawing the line. How far does it

22 reach? What was the area you controlled until the 16th of July?

23 A. To this line here. [Marks].

24 Q. Until the 16th of July, who was it that controlled Zlatiste? Mark

25 that area as well.

Page 7238

1 A. [Marks]. The area up to this line here was in the hands of the BH

2 forces and we were unable to reach the road to Pale until the 16th of

3 July. We had to go around for some 50 kilometres to reach Lukavica,

4 towards Jahorina. It was an unpaved road.

5 Q. Mark all that?

6 A. [Marks]. I started drawing the line and we had to go all the way

7 around to Jahorina.

8 Q. Thank you. Please use another colour. Could the witness be given

9 another pen? Please mark the positions that you assumed control of on the

10 16th of July. Please mark the road you mentioned.

11 A. The 16th of July. [Marks]. From this position here to here, we

12 occupied that so that we could be able to communicate with Pale, in order

13 to get food and to transport wounded -- the wounded.

14 Q. Please mark the road that was available to you after that.

15 A. [Marks]. It is the road to Pale.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and witness please not

17 overlap. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that, Mr. Tapuskovic, and the

19 witness? Please observe a pause between question and answer. The

20 interpreter is having difficulty following you.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, Your

22 Honours, ten seconds?

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. Up until July, you had no other roads to Pale except for the road

Page 7239

1 you had mentioned, the roundabout way?

2 A. Yes. And this posed great problems because of the wounded. It

3 was from Vrace to Lukavica, to Tilovo [phoen] to Granice and onwards to

4 Jahorina. We had to go there in order to reach the road to Pale and

5 Jahorina, which is a famous ski area.

6 Q. The road, as you mentioned, was occupied by your forces on the

7 16th of July. What was its position in relation to the activities of the

8 opposing party?

9 A. The other side, from Zlatiste and Debelo Brdo, could reach our

10 entire territory in depth towards Lukavica and Vrace. In addition to the

11 fact that we were unable to use the road, they held it in their hands as

12 of March. They put their police and troops on the road and we were unable

13 to use it. Therefore, we had to use the roundabout way. It was a bad

14 road and we had to use tractors.

15 Q. You said of -- as of March. What year?

16 A. As of the 3rd of March --

17 Q. Please wait for me to complete my question. Otherwise, all this

18 will have no result. As of what day in March and of what year until

19 when? Please wait.

20 A. As of the 3rd of March when the barricades were set up at Zlatiste

21 by the other side.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Visnjic, March of what year until July of what

23 year?

24 A. The 3rd of March 1992.

25 Q. Mr. Visnjic, wait. Can't you understand that? Wait for my

Page 7240

1 question to be recorded and then respond. Otherwise, the interpreters

2 won't be able to follow. Do not hurry. Now explain.

3 A. From the 3rd of March 1992 until the 16th of July 1992, that is

4 the period during which their forces were there. They didn't leave the

5 place. And they were active on those positions. On the 16th of July, we

6 managed to liberate this stretch, which enabled us to move freely to Pale.

7 Q. Was the road exposed to combat activities?

8 A. When on the 16th of July 1993, we liberated that location, and as

9 we were moving towards the so-called Osmica and then there is a restaurant

10 called Sumar on a plateau and to the left there is the bob piste, they

11 from Colina Kapa were --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty is on his feet.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: I apologise for interrupting, Your Honour. I think

14 it is a minor point but the witness has testified about the 16th of July

15 1992 as being the period during which their forces were there. And then

16 in his next answer, says the 16th of July 1993, we liberated that

17 location. So the transcript has two different years and I just would ask

18 for some clarification.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Is it 1992 or 1993 that you are speaking

20 of, Witness?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was speaking of 1992. That is the

22 correct date. And the event.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You mentioned combat activities. From which directions?

Page 7241

1 Mr. Visnjic, for the umpteenth time, do not start replying the very same

2 second I stop. Wait for the transcript, have patience, do not rush. Wait

3 for 20 or 30 seconds and then reply. Otherwise, the transcript will be

4 incomplete. Wait. Now go ahead.

5 A. On the 16th of July 1992, when we liberated the road, and when we

6 were moving towards Pale, to the left-hand side from Osmica and the

7 plateau I mentioned, where there was the Sumar restaurant, there was an

8 elevation called Colina Kapa. This is where the federation forces or the

9 forces of B and H. By using the buses.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: They opened fire at

11 the buses that were transporting our children and women.

12 A. Therefore, we had to protect the left side by making a curtain of

13 carpets and fencing so that innocent civilians would be protected.

14 Q. Thank you. Please mark the blue line with a D.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Very well, thank you. Mark the other line, going to Miljevici, I

17 think, towards the bottom of the map, with an M.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. On this map, please mark Mojmilo, and mark it to the extent

20 possible on the map.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Very well. And approximately mark the location of Debelo Brdo?

23 A. [Marks]. Debelo Brdo was here. This was our separation line and

24 this is the Debelo Brdo elevation, which dominated, since its altitude was

25 around 750 metres, over even Mojmilo hill, which was some 680 or 90 metres

Page 7242

1 high.

2 Q. Put another circle to mark Colina Kapa.

3 A. Colina Kapa was somewhere here. [Marks].

4 Q. Have a look, please.

5 A. Zlatiste.

6 Q. Have a look at the map. Read what it says. Perhaps you can't see

7 it. Maybe the type is too small.

8 A. Is there Colina Kapa marked here?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Well, in that case, I cannot see it.

11 Q. Can we zoom in on the western portion? Please try, since zooming

12 in any further would make us lose the markings.

13 A. I passed this road a thousand times. I think it was around here.

14 Colina Kapa. I don't see it mentioned here, though.

15 Q. Please look to the right-hand side. Well, in any case, it is

16 unimportant. Let us not waste any time.

17 A. It is true, Your Honours, they were occupying that position. They

18 were using the tower to fire from and there were several civilians who had

19 been wounded on those buses, therefore we had to...

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Let us save this map as it is, please, and tender

22 it as a Defence Exhibit.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As D265, Your Honours.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7243

1 Q. If you can now, please explain to Their Honours about the

2 positions at Vrace where you were and the situation there, both in

3 Dragomir Milosevic's time and throughout the conflict. I'm referring to

4 the military aspect of the situation.

5 A. In the area of responsibility according to the lines I drew to

6 represent the lines of our forces, before General Milosevic's arrival in

7 late 1994, there were assaults from Mojmilo and the Jewish cemetery and

8 from Debelo Brdo, from the Miljacka, from the faculty of mechanical

9 engineering, from Marin Dvor. The building where the OHR is now, it was

10 the Union invest building before, and they kept firing and trying to

11 pierce through those lines.

12 Q. Thank you. Can you draw some arrows to show that? You've

13 referred to Mojmilo, Debelo Brdo and some other positions. Please mark

14 this with arrows.

15 A. [Marks]. From this direction, the direction of Mojmilo, they

16 attacked fiercely in depth towards Grbavica and Vrace. In late 1992 and

17 in January and February 1993, their forces mounted one offensive after

18 another. There was a street called Ozrenska street on our side, and when

19 we were sending units there, it was like sending them to the east front in

20 Hitler's time, to Russia. It was that dangerous.

21 Q. Thank you. Please slow down, sir. Please slow down.

22 Can you indicate this street, Ozrenska street, on the map?

23 A. [Marks]. Here it is. This is Ozrenska street.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Visnjic, please don't mention any other fronts or

25 other matters than the ones I'm asking you about. It's up to the Judges

Page 7244

1 to decide on these things at the end. So please listen carefully to my

2 questions.

3 You said that in the courtyard of your house, there was an

4 outpatients' clinic?

5 A. Yes, across the road from my house, there was a community centre

6 called Aleksa Bojevic and right next to it on the plateau was a

7 prefabricated building which was an outpatients' clinic for our citizens,

8 all of them, Croats, Muslims and Serbs, until the conflict, and they

9 shelled from Mojmilo. I think it was in late June 1992, when they set

10 this prefabricated building on fire. And we were unable to save it. It

11 burnt down.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty?

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, the witness's testimony so far, I

15 rise on a relevancy objection. The witness's testimony so far has seemed

16 to me to be oriented towards establishing two points. Number 1, there was

17 a war on and the armies fought each other. And number 2, during this war,

18 evil things happened to people of all nationalities. Now, last time that

19 I rose on relevancy, Mr. Tapuskovic chided me for getting up too early and

20 not waiting until the next question, so I've waited a while but I just

21 cannot understand the relevancy of a description of combat activities a

22 couple of years before the indictment period to the charges that are laid

23 in the indictment and therefore I object on the grounds of relevancy.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic?

Page 7245

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked the witness

2 what the combat activities were like throughout the war, and especially

3 from mid-August to the end of the conflict, and the witness replied as he

4 did. I will now focus on the relevant time exclusively, although what the

5 witness explained refers both to the previous period and the relevant

6 period. However, if need be, I will focus exclusively on the relevant

7 period and I will produce some exhibits in that sense.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let us move on.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Visnjic, please wait for my question to be recorded and don't

11 hurry, please.

12 This street, Ozrenska street, what happened? What did you have to

13 do for your safety and the safety of all those in the area, especially

14 from the 12th of August or mid-August, until the end of the conflict?

15 A. Your Honours, I have sworn to tell the truth and nothing but the

16 truth, and I really am telling you only the truth. The area where we

17 were, the area we defended, was under fierce fire, and to prove this, I

18 will tell you that we had to put up boards towards Mojmilo to hide people

19 on the street because no one could pass by without fire being opened, even

20 on civilians.

21 Q. Thank you. Thank you. We have already saved this photograph. I

22 don't need to dwell on it now.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown--

24 is this an exhibit?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we admitted the map as marked by the

Page 7246

1 witness for the second time as D265, but I believe the witness made

2 additional markings after that that haven't been tendered.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, could I suggest that if you -- for

4 the future when you bring maps on the screen, then wait to tender it until

5 the end so that we don't have to admit the same picture two or three

6 times, as that will facilitate our perception of the evidence.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand. And that's

8 why my examination-in-chief led to the objection by my learned friend,

9 because I cannot show the documents I want to put to the witness as long

10 as we have the map before us. So I am trying to deal with the map in its

11 entirety now without having to bring it up again. Of course, I will bear

12 this in mind, Your Honour.

13 May this now be admitted into evidence as a Defence Exhibit?


15 THE REGISTRAR: As D266, Your Honours.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown D202?

17 202.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this the map?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No.


21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. It's Defence Exhibit D202.

22 It's on our list of exhibits, DD003355. Yes.

23 Q. You have just told us what this looked like. Can you explain what

24 these photographs show?

25 A. These photographs are very familiar to me. These are the passages

Page 7247

1 we constructed closing off the right and left sides of the street, in

2 order to reach our positions or to reach food or to take food to our

3 civilians and fighters. And we even had to go from lamp light to lamp

4 light, putting up canvass, carpets and all sorts of other things, because

5 they were firing on us from Hum, from Pofalici, on Bane Surbata street,

6 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo street, Zagrebacka street, because they could see us

7 from up there. So by night we had to put up these things to conceal us.

8 Q. Can we now have document 003335, page 29 in e-court? Look at

9 these two pictures on the right-hand side. What does the right-hand

10 picture show and what did the situation look like in Dragomir Milosevic's

11 time in connection with this picture?

12 A. I think I remember correctly, when General Milosevic arrived as

13 commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in August, that was about the

14 time there was a kind of lull, and this is the brotherhood and unity

15 bridge, where there was an UNPROFOR check-point, and then the so-called

16 Blue Road could be used by civilians to visit their children, sons,

17 daughters, and other family members in Sarajevo, and vice versa. They

18 could come to our area and visit their immediate family members.

19 Q. Thank you very much. And what is there in front of this car?

20 A. That is a fence on Bratstvo-Jedinstvo street, brotherhood and

21 unity street, which was there to provide protection so that one could go

22 towards the town of Sarajevo or towards Grbavica, and what you see up

23 above is the hill of Hum, and this is Bratstvo-Jedinstvo street. And as I

24 said, they had an excellent view and they could use all kinds of weapons,

25 not only infantry weapons but also mortars, 62 and 82, 60 and

Page 7248

1 82-millimetre mortars and PAMs and PATs as well.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be tendered?


4 THE REGISTRAR: As D267, Your Honours.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we now show document

6 DD00335, page 15 in e-court?

7 Q. Witness, can you describe what we see on these photographs on the

8 right-hand side, and is this the relevant time period as regards Dragomir

9 Milosevic's responsibility? What is this?

10 A. Well, where you see these stumps of trees shows that there was

11 fierce shooting from the BH side. You can see the state of the trees.

12 Buildings were damaged. They were firing on a residential area. And

13 there were many losses on our side, both civilians and soldiers were

14 killed, but more civilians were killed because they were more careless and

15 took greater risks.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender these four

17 photographs.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As D268, Your Honours.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

21 Prosecution document 194? It's a map.

22 Q. And while we are waiting for the map, can you tell us these

23 buildings and what you have shown so far on the photographs, was all this

24 in Grbavica?

25 A. Yes. All of that belonged to Grbavica. There was an area in

Page 7249

1 Grbavica called the so-called shopping area. That was Grbavica too. But

2 all of that is Grbavica.

3 Q. Can we zoom in, please? A little more. Thank you.

4 Can you tell us where on this map the positions where you were, in

5 Dragomir Milosevic's time?

6 A. May I indicate it with this pen?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. [Marks]. Our positions -- this is my area of responsibility, and

9 this bit belongs to Grbavica and Vrace and across the road is the faculty

10 of mechanical engineering and the faculty of mathematics and natural

11 sciences.

12 Q. Thank you. Tell me, where exactly were you with your unit?

13 A. [Marks]. This smaller area inside here belonged to my units

14 completely, towards Miljacka, Vraca and Lukavica.

15 Q. But please show us where Vrace is?

16 A. Vrace is here. That's Vrace, here in this circle. [Marks].

17 That's an elevation of 400 and something and this is part of Mojmilo from

18 where they fired on our positions.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. And on the left side was Debelo Brdo which was also an elevation

21 of 750 and then we were in cross-fire constantly so then we had to shield

22 our right side like I described earlier. We had to cover the streets in

23 order to preserve the civilians and our armed forces.

24 Q. And when we are still on this map, while we are still looking at

25 this map, in the summer of 1995, where did other fire at you also come

Page 7250

1 from? Can you indicate that with arrows?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's microphone please be turned

3 on?

4 A. Earlier we said that since 1994, when General Milosevic became the

5 corps commander, there was a truce until 1995.

6 Q. Please, please, please, Mr. Visnjic. We will come to that. I'm

7 asking you where did other fire come from, other than the firing from

8 Debelo Brdo and from Mojmilo? Where did they fire at you from other

9 places?

10 A. [Marks]. From Pofalici and Hum, they fired there. And then from

11 the Blagoja Parovic school across the street from the Genex, that's where

12 they fired from, and they also fired from, and they also fired from --

13 well, that's that area.

14 Q. Thank you. And where is the Blagoja Parovic school?

15 A. The Blagoja Parovic school is located, I don't know if you know

16 that it was to the depth of the tobacco factory, to the left there was the

17 Genex firm and that was the Blagoja Parovic school -- street and that's

18 where the school was. And that's where they fired from, from infantry

19 weapons. It was practically a barracks of theirs from where their units

20 deployed into specific positions according to the orders from their

21 commanders.

22 Q. Thank you. The place where the Blagoja Parovic school was, can

23 you please mark that with the letters BP?

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And now from Vrace, did you note the positions of the army of

Page 7251

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina? If you look at this map, can you tell us what it is

2 here that you see, these black dots? Can you please tell the Judges?

3 A. The black dots here -- well, we were divided or separated by the

4 Miljacka. Our positions were on this side --

5 Q. Please follow what I am saying. I'm talking about the right side

6 below Debelo Brdo, these spots. Can you look at that, please?

7 A. All right. These were their nests or positions, artillery

8 positions, from where they fired at us from the depth. There were mortars

9 there. Then we had to find that location, judging by the shells that they

10 fired, in order to neutralise the firing nests from which they were

11 jeopardising our positions.

12 Q. Well, can you please mark those firing nests?

13 A. Here, here and here. [Marks].

14 Q. Mr. Visnjic, you are not following at all what I am asking you.

15 You have indicated where Debelo Brdo is?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now I'm asking you below Debelo Brdo do you see any firing

18 positions? What are these black spots? That's what I'm asking you.

19 You're marking something on the other side.

20 A. Well, I'm sorry, I didn't understand you. These are the black

21 spots from which they fired.

22 Q. Again, just one moment, please. Do you see what is written with

23 these large numbers there?

24 A. One -- yes, I do see it.

25 Q. What does it say there?

Page 7252

1 A. 115th BB -- combat something actions. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. And since you are a reserve officer, what is to the right of that

3 number?

4 A. These are the positions of their artillery nests from which they

5 fired.

6 Q. Thank you. And how far was that from the line of separation?

7 A. Well, it ranged from 200 to 300 metres from their lines. It could

8 go as far back as 300 metres but the depth was an average of 200 metres.

9 That's how far their mortars were situated, the 60 and the 82 millimetres

10 and frequently, they --

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Please, can we save this map and have it admitted

13 as a Defence Exhibit?


15 THE REGISTRAR: As D269, Your Honours.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can the witness please

17 be shown document DD003565? Can we please zoom in on this bottom part of

18 the English version? Yes, the lower part.

19 Q. Witness, can you please look at the heading of the document? Who

20 issued the document and the date, and can you please tell us who drafted

21 the document?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please zoom up or scroll

23 up? I'm talking about the bottom part of the document. No. Yes.

24 Q. This bottom part, what does it say in the heading? What is the

25 date and who signed it?

Page 7253

1 A. It's the 29th of June 1995.

2 Q. Just one moment. Please listen to me. Can you read what it says

3 in the heading of the document and what date is it?

4 A. All I have in the heading is that it states the commander and then

5 above that it says we are sending -- oh, you mean to the left?

6 Q. Mr. Visnjic, we are not proceeding all that well. Can you please

7 read what it states in the heading?

8 A. "The 4th command of the 12th armoured, page number 022-11-88,

9 Sarajevo the 29th of June 1995 at 2200 hours. I order positions -- "

10 Q. Can you please read everything?

11 A. Well, I am reading. "The ordering of the positions" --

12 Q. Mr. Visnjic, you know about the rule. Read what is written. So

13 please do that.

14 A. All right. "Based according to the noticed omissions and

15 weaknesses in the present defence system and for the purpose of overcoming

16 the same and making better the fire system or, rather, improving the

17 firing system, I hereby order organised firing systems at the front of the

18 defence and organising the fire on the nearby trenches and bunkers at the

19 depth of 50 to 100 metres wherever that is possible, also construct

20 shields for heavy weapons. PAMMT and PM -- PMMT and PAM. That will

21 protect positions at the front line, the forward line," I guess. I cannot

22 read what it says.

23 Q. Can we please zoom in on the text a little bit?

24 A. "At the front end of the line, and capture it. The firing

25 positions in buildings, develop or construct bunkers or shields in front

Page 7254

1 of the buildings, and capture the same and fit them in in the cited firing

2 system."

3 Q. Thank you. Who signed it and to whom was the document delivered

4 to?

5 A. To the commander, Fikret Prevljak. He is the one who signed it

6 and who dispatched it to his superior -- or rather to his units.

7 Q. And which units are these?

8 A. The 101st, the 102nd and the 105th units as well as the 115th,

9 150th combat brigades, the 112th and the -- the 111th and the 112th.

10 Q. And now what you said earlier about the depth of the positions,

11 does that coincide with what you said?

12 A. Yes. It is just as I explained it earlier. Because earlier I

13 explained that the Miljacka line, from their side, was occupied by

14 trenches from Marin Dvor to the technical faculty all the way to the

15 electrical utility company, and then they had these firing positions as

16 well with heavier weapons which they fired at our positions.

17 Q. You say that depth to 100 to 200 metres in relation to what?

18 A. In relation to 100 to 200 metres into the depth of their territory

19 behind the front lines where their forces were. So from that depth of the

20 town, they fired at our positions from heavy weapons, and I explained that

21 earlier.

22 Q. And was there anything even deeper into their positions? Were

23 there any other heavy weapons there?

24 A. Of course. I think that I spoke before about Pofalici and Hum,

25 where they fired from with 120-millimetre weapon. My house was shelled on

Page 7255

1 the 23rd of July 1995, and my wife was wounded in that firing, and she was

2 treated in the Kasindol hospital. She spent about 10 days at the

3 hospital.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Time for the break. We'll adjourn.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. Witness, we still have some time on our hands. Please bear with

11 me, be patient, listen to my question and then respond.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to ask you

13 for a ruling for the document DD003565, that was commented on by the

14 witness, even before he was shown the document, that this be admitted into

15 evidence. I'd like to hear your ruling on it.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you first explain to us what exactly you

17 wish us to extract from this document?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness was talking about the

19 separation line, and then he mentioned that in depth to the extent of 200

20 or 300 metres, that there were fortified firing positions there. He said

21 that of his own free will. He explained where the positions were. And

22 this is a document by a commander, Fikret Prevljak, whereby he ordered

23 that to the front of the defence line, firing positions should be

24 organised in such a way that cross fire can be directed from various

25 trenches in support of the positions and heavy artillery. This confirms

Page 7256

1 what the witness had stated even before he was shown the witness

2 [as interpreted] when he said that as regards the separation line, that

3 there was defence organised in terms of firing positions in depth, and

4 that they had artillery at their disposal. He also said that there were

5 similar such positions in depth, and this document, by the army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, by the commander of the 12th Division, which was

7 active in the area controlled by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina absolutely

8 confirms the testimony of this witness.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I can see that, but what I still -- excuse me,

10 could you just let me put my question to you? What I still have

11 difficulties in understanding is how the order from the ABiH general to

12 his forces to develop a better system of shooting positions, how that

13 order can possibly support your case.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first thing is

15 the one I have already stated. The second thing is that the witness

16 already said where they were fired from. He said they were targeted from

17 the depth, then they were firing over the heads, over their own

18 population, over Marin Dvor and other positions occupied by the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, this is firm evidence of the existence of

20 firing positions in the depth of the territory of the ABiH, and this shows

21 what he said --

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And excuse me, Mr. Tapuskovic, where does this

23 take us? I see no other probative value of this document than the fact

24 that, yes, there was an armed conflict, yes, the ABiH was trying to

25 improve its positions by developing a better system of locations from

Page 7257

1 where fire could be addressed to the SRK, and this I think comes as no

2 surprise to any of us. So where again, I ask, what do you want the Court

3 to extract from this document?

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I finish, Your Honours?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] They fired over the heads of

8 their population, from the very area where the incidents were. They were

9 able to incidentally hit their own positions. They also fired incessantly

10 from the positions that were close to the places of incident. We dispute

11 that such incidents occurred because there was intentional firing on the

12 part of the SRK. They fired from Hum and Zuc over the heads of entire

13 Sarajevo and Marin Dvor. If one fires from Hum and Zuc as testified by

14 this witness and then his wife is hit at Vrace, that shell must have flown

15 across the entire Sarajevo and of course it can hit another couple of

16 things along the way, sometimes intentionally so. And of course they can

17 miscalculate the range and it can fall short of its target. This is the

18 relevance. And I believe this document deserves all of your attention and

19 has sufficient bearing on the decisions you are to make.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As D270, Your Honours.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness mentioned the

23 Blagoja Parovic school, that is also in one such location, at which such

24 projectiles could flow over the heads of the population and he said that

25 fire, infantry fire, was opened from the school, could we please show him

Page 7258

1 document -- another document, that is the one before last out of the batch

2 I have. It is DD002531.

3 Can the B/C/S document be enlarged? Thank you.

4 Q. Could the witness please read the heading, the date? Please read

5 out the heading, the date and the text of the order. What sort of a

6 document is it?

7 A. This is a purely military document. It is an order by a

8 commander. It came from the command of the 1st Motorised Brigade issued

9 on the 2nd of October 1993, on the basis of a demonstrated need for better

10 training and better performance of tasks by snipers in the 1st, 2nd and

11 3rd Motorised Brigade, [says the witness] I hereby order, 1, form a sniper

12 platoon of snipers of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd motorised unit as follows:" And

13 there is a list of names. "Item 2, I hereby appoint Muhamed Mandic," if I

14 can read it correctly, no, it is "Medic, as commander of the sniper

15 platoon. Item 3, the sniper platoon shall be billeted in the former

16 Blagoja Parovic school."

17 Q. Thank you. Is this the school you mentioned and that was marked

18 on the map?

19 A. Yes. We touched upon the school of Blagoje Parovic. It is a

20 large school where many units were quartered. It is actually a large

21 barracks. In those barracks there must have been a sharp shooter's

22 platoon that had been formed as evidenced by this order. They acted upon

23 orders issued by their immediate commander.

24 Q. In the vicinity of the school, what sort of buildings were there

25 and where was this infantry fire coming from, the one you mentioned?

Page 7259

1 A. Close to the Blagoja Parovic school, there was a building of the

2 Genex company. They had their own large distribution warehouses of

3 consumer goods they distributed to shops, retail shops and private shops.

4 In addition to that, there were high rises there, there was the social

5 welfare office, the Vase Miskina metal factory premises, and the part

6 towards Stup. From those buildings and high rises, that's where the fire

7 was coming from, as well as from Pofalici, from the Pero Kosoric centre in

8 Hrasno. They fired from those high rises as well as from Mojmilo.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I ask

10 for this document to be admitted as a Defence Exhibit. It was received

11 by -- from the Prosecutor.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not why we are admitting it but we admit

13 it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As D271, Your Honours.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now we are running out of time so let us try and close your

17 examination-in-chief. Mr. Visnjic, as you said, when general came to the

18 command post -- well, can you describe for us the period while he was

19 commander during 1994, before he came there?

20 A. During 1994, from the moment of General Milosevic's arrival, well,

21 before that, there were sporadic incidents and attacks by the ABiH. Upon

22 his arrival, what followed was a calm period. As we learned later general

23 was an exceptionally capable operational officer. He issued strict

24 directives that were in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, that we

25 were only to fire upon the enemy only in cases of individual provocations

Page 7260

1 or an all-out attack. Otherwise, each soldier or officer would be

2 disciplined. He did not entrust the individual officers to pass on the

3 message to the troops but, rather, he went from one position to the next

4 to see to it that his orders were passed on.

5 Q. Thank you. What did it look like in 1994? What followed?

6 A. In 1994, until May, there was sort of a truce, a lull, and people

7 began feeling more safe and were going to the market. But in the summer

8 of that year, there were provocations and individual strikes. Therefore--

9 Q. Let us stay in the beginning of -- the first half of the year.

10 You said it lasted until sometime, until May. When was the truce

11 interrupted?

12 A. On the 26th of May, I think, by the forces of the ABiH. They

13 attacked our lines. The intensity of attacks was particularly pronounced

14 when they managed to pierce through --

15 Q. Excuse me. First and foremost, do you know when this situation

16 picked up pace?

17 A. Well, it became more serious in May and June, all the way until

18 the end of the war, concerning the Sarajevo positions and positions

19 further on, for example in Trnovo. They attacked Trnovo on the 16th of

20 June with a fierce attack. They managed to break through our lines. And

21 we had to withdraw our positions by some five to six kilometres into the

22 depth of our territory.

23 Q. Do you remember a specific incident in Vrace that remains etched

24 in your memory?

25 A. Certainly. From Mojmilo, where our 5th company was, as well as

Page 7261

1 their commander, their lines were broken through and four or five soldiers

2 were killed. That is just below UNPROFOR positions or their base that was

3 there. Below that base, there was a sabotage group which attacked our

4 troops. Four men were killed and there were some wounded. Therefore,

5 after that, we assumed position number 2.

6 Q. Was it a building?

7 A. No. It was a bunker close to the Slavisa Vajner-Cica barracks.

8 It was their task to attack from Hum, although they could control Lukavica

9 from Hum, but at the foot of Mojmilo there is the barracks and some 800

10 metres away there was another barracks called Princip Seljo, which is the

11 barracks that housed the corps command.

12 Q. Did anything happen with the Investbanka building?

13 A. I'm very familiar with this because that building is in our zone

14 of responsibility where the OHR is now, it was about 150 metres from

15 Vrbanja mosque and they had to build buildings there with brick facades

16 and on the ground floor there was the Investbanka -- bank. As they had

17 already taken some buildings from us, they wanted to make an incursion

18 there and they did, and the first entrance near the line, they broke

19 through there and they got up to the third floor and they killed two or

20 three elderly people, but then we managed to get them out of that building

21 and hold it until the end of the war.

22 Q. Thank you. Document DD000694. Witness, look at the heading,

23 please. What does it say underneath the heading and please read the first

24 and the second point and tell us whether this is what you were just

25 talking about?

Page 7262

1 A. "Command of the 12th Division, Sarajevo, the 21st of July 1995,

2 report on sabotage actions. On the 20th of July 1995, late in the evening

3 at 200 hours I think it says here, a sabotage action was carried out in

4 the Vrbanja Mosque which is just some metres away.

5 Q. Don't explain, please.

6 A. The action was carried out by a sabotage group five -- I can't

7 read this, it's illegible, five --

8 Q. All right. Skip over.

9 A. Something about 115th Brigade. I can't see this. And then it

10 says: "The action was carried out against the Chetnik bunkers," is that

11 what it says, "in Investbanka, third floor, in which Chetniks were

12 permanently stationed. The bunker was hit with two rockets fired from an

13 RPG 7. The action was carried out" -- I can't read this --

14 Q. Thank you. Is this what you were just explaining?

15 A. Yes, precisely so. This sabotage group broke into the Investbanka

16 building and they got up to the third floor, on the second or third floor,

17 there were some elderly people, they weren't all that old, 65, but they

18 killed them and after that there was fierce fighting, because they had

19 support from their rear and we drove them out.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this document.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As D272, Your Honours.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember something that happened on this road leading from

25 Vrace towards Pale? This is the road that was taken on the 16th of July

Page 7263

1 1992, and then when these events that happened in June and July started?

2 A. Yes, of course. On the 25th, I think, of June, the so-called

3 eights [as interpreted] that I mentioned before, and a motel called Sumar,

4 our positions were above there. I think it was number 4, there were

5 certain units there, and between 300 and 400 hours, while our people were

6 asleep, they liquidated them and they laid land mines there and they took

7 up that position and, when the neighbouring bunkers heard the fighting

8 going on, the fire was opened, and they had support from their artillery

9 in depth in order to protect their group. And so for two or three hours

10 we waged a battle, and they even managed to blow up that area and there

11 was rubble blocking it but we managed to get them out of there.

12 Q. Thank you. Please look at document DD02?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 00325.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And look at the heading and what it says underneath, and then

16 where it mentions our forces in 2/1, look at the sentence that begins, "In

17 the course of the night."

18 A. Can we zoom in a bit, please? Can I begin?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. "Regular -- or rather daily combat report." But there is no

21 heading.

22 Q. No, there isn't.

23 A. Can we scroll down a little bit, please? Scroll up, scroll up.

24 "The command of the 12th Division, Sarajevo, 25th of June 1995.

25 Regular-- rather daily combat report and it says, "Aggressor".

Page 7264

1 Q. To where it says our forces, 2/1, look at the sentence that begins

2 during the night. It's highlighted.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours may I read it

4 because it's been highlighted and -- or maybe the witness could look at

5 the document on the ELMO, it will be more legible or I can read out that

6 part of the document.

7 A. Maybe I can do my best to read it. Our forces --

8 Q. No, please, please. 2.1, the sentence that begins, "During the

9 night" to avoid wasting time.

10 A. "During the night, the units had no combat actions. They were

11 preparing for offensive combat actions according to the decision of K 12

12 Armoured Brigade," I'm not sure what this says. It says, "05, a signal

13 was given to start combat action at around 300 hours from automatic

14 weapons, a serious wound was inflicted and an entry-exit wound through the

15 right leg and the right arm, Ismet Dzaferovic of the engineers, in the

16 course of the night," -- I can't read what it says here.

17 Q. Well, but that's the very reason I wanted to show this. This

18 sentence is important. Can we either put it on the ELMO or have me read

19 it?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put it on the ELMO.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Read it now, Witness. "In the course of the night" --

23 A. "An explosive was laid to block the Lukavica-Trebevic-Pale road

24 and it was activated at 5.35."

25 Q. Thank you. Is this what happened as you said when the explosive

Page 7265

1 was ignited from a distance and the road destroyed?

2 A. Yes. That was the sabotage action they carried out. They found

3 our men asleep and liquidated them.

4 Q. Thank you. And were there more instances where explosives were

5 used and ignited from a distance like this?

6 A. Well, it didn't happen very often but it did. I can't recall now,

7 but this was only when their sabotage groups managed to sneak in

8 unobserved by our forces. Then they would lay such explosives, especially

9 at Grbavica they did that near the water works, high-rise building, but

10 our people intervened on time -- in time because they wanted to cross the

11 bridge, they wanted to cross the Miljacka in order to take that part of

12 our position and that was their aim throughout the war.

13 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you very much. Can this

14 document be tendered, please, into evidence?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Clerk.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, thank you,

17 Your Honours.

18 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be admitted as D273.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty?

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Docherty:

21 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Sir, my name is John Docherty. I'm one of the prosecuting lawyers

24 on this case and I have just a few questions for you today. I wanted to

25 start with just a few questions about your background and what you did

Page 7266

1 during the armed conflict. Did you testify that you were an assistant

2 commander for logistics of a battalion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us which battalion, please, and also who the

5 commanding officer of the battalion was?

6 A. My battalion was the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade,

7 and the battalion commander was the late Radomir Stojanovic.

8 Q. And can you tell us what your duties were as the assistant

9 commander for logistics, just in a few sentences maybe tell us what you

10 did day in, day out, what your duties were, what your responsibilities

11 were?

12 A. My responsibilities in logistics were mainly to supply the men on

13 the positions with food in a timely manner, to make sure that bread was

14 baked in the bakery which was in Tobiska street at Vrace and this bread

15 for the troops was made at night. In the morning, the surplus was

16 distributed to the civilians who arrived and queued up for the bread. The

17 civilians were Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Some Muslims remained, not very

18 many, and they took bread from that bakery after supplies had been sent to

19 the troops. My only task was to make sure that small cars were used

20 because large cars were too conspicuous and two of my men from the rear,

21 one was killed and two were wounded, so even so they were targeted. And

22 that was my task. But also, if the soldiers complained of the quality of

23 the food, I would have to visit them in the trenches, go from trench to

24 trench to find out what was the matter and to see why they were

25 dissatisfied. And that's how I was familiar with all the positions on my

Page 7267

1 territory.

2 Q. All right. As the assistant commander for logistics, your duties

3 did not extend, though -- you were not, for example, a member of the staff

4 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, were you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And were not a part of the decision-making of General Milosevic

7 and his closest advisers, were you?

8 A. No. But we would have to carry out those orders.

9 Q. I understand you would have to carry them out, and in fact that's

10 what I wanted to talk with you next but my question -- the question that's

11 before you right now is that you were not a member of the decision-make --

12 the senior decision-makers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now let's turn to carrying out those orders. The Sarajevo -- do

15 you understand what I mean if I use the term "chain of command"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And at the time that you served in it the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

18 had a chain of command, is that correct, in which orders given by the

19 corps commander went to the brigade commanders, went to the battalion

20 commanders and so on down the line until it got to the people like you who

21 carried out orders rather than gave orders? Correct?

22 A. Well, I wish to clarify this. The orders of the corps referred to

23 the brigade commands, and battalion commands. All the brigade commands

24 and -- all the brigade and the battalion commanders, rather, were

25 responsible for carrying out the orders, or if they failed to carry them

Page 7268

1 out they had to explain why not and why the order of the corps commander

2 had not been carried out.

3 Q. I don't think we disagree but what I'm asking you is whether in

4 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps it was true that more senior officers give

5 orders to less senior officers gave orders to junior officers and so on

6 down the line. Is that a fair description of the way things happened in

7 the corps?

8 A. Yes. That was the subordination.

9 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to switch topics just now. And I'm going to

10 ask you -- you've testified about civilians being injured and killed in

11 your area of responsibility. But you did not testify, did you, about

12 civilians being injured or killed on the other side of the confrontation

13 lines, that is, in territory under the control of the army of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, did you?

15 A. That's correct, yes, that's right.

16 Q. And in fact, you are aware, from various sources, are you not,

17 that civilians in the area controlled by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

18 also were being killed, both by bullets and by mortar/artillery fire; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Most probably that's correct, but I must clarify this. The media,

21 the BH radio we listened to, most often said how many of our soldiers were

22 killed. They never mentioned civilians. But we never heard how many of

23 their soldiers were killed and what losses they had. We only heard about

24 their civilian casualties, and we always found these reports suspect.

25 Q. But in any event, either at the time, because you were there and

Page 7269

1 could see what was going on and -- or since the war, you have learned

2 that, in fact, civilians inside the lines, in the area controlled by the

3 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina lost their lives by being shot or being

4 shelled; is that correct?

5 A. Your Honours, I can give you a precise piece of information. On

6 the 18th of December 1993, 20 HVO soldiers crossed the Miljacka to our

7 side and they brought 40 Serbs with them. I was the duty officer of the

8 battalion at the time. Every month I had to take a certain duty shift.

9 And then they told us, I'm referring to the members of the HVO, that Celo,

10 Caco and Puska, those were self-proclaimed defenders, prominent men, had

11 perpetrated a genocide over the Serbian population in Sarajevo. Entire

12 families were killed. This must be reported somewhere. And the Court

13 must have that information. And they exaggerated the things that we did

14 but they did those kind of things too.

15 Q. Mr. Visnjic, I'm sure that that was a difficult day for you and I

16 don't mean to minimise it but with all respect, sir, that's not the

17 question that I asked you. You did not testify here today about things

18 going on inside or in the area controlled by the army of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, did you? And that's all that I'm asking you.

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Now, there were several specific things that you testified to that

22 I want to ask you some questions about. You gave testimony concerning a

23 place called Ozrenska street. Do you remember that?

24 A. Of course, yes.

25 Q. And are you aware that in the -- a trial at this Tribunal, of

Page 7270

1 General Galic, who preceded General Milosevic, that there was testimony

2 concerning sniping of Bosnian civilians in army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

3 areas from Sarajevo-Romanija Corps positions on Ozrenska street? Did

4 that, Mr. Visnjic, in fact happen?

5 A. No. I assert that Ozrenska street is below Moravska. Moravska is

6 at a higher elevation from which our snipers could have shot, but as the

7 crow flies, it would have been about 1.000 to 1.200 metres away and no

8 sniper can be precise at such a distance. They could only fire at their

9 snipers in the area of Pero Kosorica square, in Hrasno the high rise

10 buildings from which their snipers were firing at our position. Ozrenska

11 was the first line next to their line and there were positions at the

12 houses there, alternating positions. One house belonging to us, another

13 to them, and in Mojmilo they were there since 1992, and there was cross

14 fire on us both from Debelo Brdo and Mojmilo. Debelo Brdo on the right

15 and Mojmilo on the left looking from Vrace towards the Miljacka.

16 Q. Mr. Visnjic, the question I was asking concerned Ozrenska street,

17 and you may remember -- I don't want to call for the map again but you may

18 remember making the black mark on the map. Is it not correct that you can

19 fire into Sarajevo, into Bosnian army controlled areas from Ozrenska

20 street? I understand you say it's a thousand to 1200 metres to some other

21 position, but I'm talking about a straight shot into Bosnian army

22 controlled areas of the city of Sarajevo.

23 A. Your Honours, it's not true that from Ozrenska street, because

24 these are very small houses which were quite dilapidated and already

25 damaged by shelling, so in the cellars there were our nests and then next

Page 7271

1 to them there were trenches dug into the ground. That's where our

2 trenches were but it was not in the attic. Only from Moravska where the

3 elevation was a bit higher, up to about 450 metres, the Moravska street

4 elevation was possible but it didn't have the range to such a depth in

5 Sarajevo because there were no successful snipers. I know from command

6 meetings when they discussed that and they were obliged to come to the

7 meeting, that it was no -- there was no point in this kind of firing

8 because it just didn't have any effect.

9 Q. Two things. First of all, I really have to insist on an answer to

10 the question I put to you, which was about the range from Ozrenska street

11 into Bosnian army controlled areas of Sarajevo. The range was not the

12 thousand to 1200 metres you referred to a couple of answers ago, it was

13 much shorter than that, it was a straight shot over the Miljacka river and

14 into I believe the Marjan Dvor area of Sarajevo; isn't that correct? I

15 understand your point about the buildings being dilapidated, the cellars,

16 all the rest of it. I'm just asking about the range.

17 A. The distance from Ozrenska to Marin Dvor is very far, to the

18 right, the Pero Kosoric square or Hrasno, where the high-rise buildings

19 were, where they acted from, that was close to us. That was possible.

20 But as I said, that was a lower elevation and they didn't have the view to

21 be able to do that. They could only do that from the Moravska and from

22 that kind of plateau. That was the only way.

23 Q. All right. Well, while we are talking about ranges, you had

24 something to say about ranges in your direct testimony when you talked

25 about fire being opened on you that had to go across the city and maybe it

Page 7272

1 hit other things along the way and so forth and so on. And if we could

2 please see Defence Exhibit 270, I'm going to be asking you some questions

3 concerning that.

4 But while we are waiting for the document, in your last answer or

5 the answer before last, you mentioned that you knew it was futile to shoot

6 from Ozrenska street because were you at staff meetings where this was

7 discussed? Did I understand you properly? Was sniping discussed at staff

8 meetings?

9 A. I think that it was commented upon on two occasions, when I was

10 present at the meeting when the battalion commander would call us. I was

11 not obliged to attend those meetings every time, only exceptionally when

12 something was important, then I would have to be there as a logistics

13 person.

14 Q. All right. So you would only attend the meetings exceptionally,

15 which I take to mean rarely, and yet, even though you were attending

16 exceptionally, sniping was discussed on two occasions when you were there;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of sniping? Sniping from where to where? What area was

20 targeted by this sniping that was discussed at the staff meeting?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think it's fairer to simply ask him what

22 was discussed about sniping.


24 Q. What was discussed about sniping?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: But Mr. Tapuskovic has a point. What is it,

Page 7273

1 Mr. Tapuskovic?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's precisely what I

3 wanted. What was discussed and when? What is the time period in

4 question?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The time that we discussed it in was

6 it 1993, when their snipers were active in Grbavica and Vrace a lot and

7 then particularly from Blagoja Parovic and those high-rise buildings, as

8 well as two or three buildings from Vase Miskina. That's where they had

9 an overview of our territory. Also, from Pofalici, it is the so-called

10 Pero Kosoric square. Now it's the square of defenders of Sarajevo,

11 Branioca Sarajevo. From those high-rise buildings, their snipers fired at

12 us and I attended that meeting when the late Radomir Stojanovic said that

13 our snipers must deploy so that they were at the high-rise building in

14 Grbavica near the shopping and also from Mojmilo. So that those snipers

15 were looking to find those other sniper nests and locate them and destroy

16 them. This is what I know about that.


18 Q. Right. So your commander, the late Radivoje Stojanovic, said that

19 your snipers must deploy at the high-rise building in Grbavica near the

20 shopping. Those are the tall bindings with the brick facades that you

21 were testifying about in your direct examination, am I correct?

22 A. No, no. This is towards the Zeljo stadium. The shopping centre

23 had two yellow high-rise buildings of about 15 to 16 storeys each, I'm not

24 sure now, but that was that height, and they could control the Pero

25 Kosoric square or Hrasno from there, as well as this section towards the

Page 7274

1 Blagoja Parovic school and Vase Miskina where the three or four high-rise

2 buildings were located and also from Moravska, that part of Mojmilo from

3 where there was also sniper shooting.

4 Q. All right. But although I got the building, the precise building

5 wrong, Radomir Stojanovic wanted SRK snipers in those high-rise buildings;

6 is that right? That's what you heard?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And as far as you know, was that done?

9 A. It was done. They belonged to our battalion so I think that was a

10 12-member team, not bigger than that.

11 Q. Now let's take a look at the document that is on the screen, and

12 this is the document that led to the discussion of shooting over Bosnian

13 positions. Now, under "order," point number 1 says, "On the front of

14 defence, organise fire system, mutual covering," et cetera. But it does

15 not say, and I ask you, it does not say anywhere in this document, where

16 this -- where these positions are located; is that correct? I understand

17 that -- you've testified about the positions but the document doesn't

18 mention the positions, does it?

19 A. For me, it does mention that, Your Honours, because I know that in

20 the Grbavica area, along the Miljacka, where the only thing separating us

21 was the river, they knew exactly where our positions were, but we had

22 fighters who had their own trenches, their own places; for example, from

23 there they could direct their fire. Sometimes they shot at Investbanka,

24 sometimes they attacked the water utility. There was a sabotage action.

25 There was also a car sales plant, which I didn't mention before, that was

Page 7275

1 at the very boundary of the Loris and Pero Kosoric Square. There was

2 fierce firing there. They even tried to break through in a tunnel to

3 reach there in order to capture that area so that they could then threaten

4 our positions.

5 Q. Mr. Visnjic, I understand that you're looking at this document and

6 bringing to it other things that you know. But I'm looking at this

7 document, you said that these positions are on Zuc or Hum hill and I'm

8 asking you it doesn't say that in the document, does it? That's all, just

9 what is in the plain text of the document.

10 A. Here, Your Honours, it said from 50 to 100 metres, and I'm going

11 to say the following. In front -- if in front of me, let's say, there is

12 a line, I'm speaking about the B and H army forces, you have the front

13 lines here and then to the depth 50 to 100 metres back, how shall I put

14 it, there is the light artillery weaponry, these are the 60s mortars and

15 82 mortars, and then you have the heavier weapons, 120 millimetre mortar

16 and heavier weaponry; then they use that, those weapons, to fire at us

17 from a depth of 500 -- 50 to 100 metres. When the guys from the hills

18 would fire, then they would provide them with support in order to fire at

19 us.

20 Q. Mr. Visnjic, I'm sorry, I think we are miscommunicating. You

21 testified that the positions being discussed in this order are positions

22 on Zuc and Hum hills, and I'm putting it to you the order doesn't say

23 that, and that's really all I'm trying to establish and I'm ready to move

24 on. Those words aren't in the document, are they?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic?

Page 7276

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, during

2 the examination-in-chief, talked about the document in the way that he has

3 just talked about it, but he also said that besides these positions to a

4 depth of 100 metres, there were even further positions deeper inside from

5 where the fire came in the way that he described. So he said that these

6 were positions up to a depth of 100 metres and then at a greater depth,

7 Zuc and Hum, were the places from where the fire came in the way he

8 described. Well, in any case, the Prosecutor should show how this was

9 stated, but in any case, what I would like to say is that during the

10 examination-in-chief, this is the way the witness dealt with this

11 document.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you are to continue. Did you ask a

14 question, Mr. Docherty? Is that where we are? Oh, yes, Mr. Docherty is

15 asking to you confirm that the document does not expressly mention Zuc and

16 Hum hills.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are not mentioned, but on the

18 29th of June 1995, my wife -- actually -- was wounded on the 23rd of July,

19 by a 120 millimetre mortar shell which struck my house precisely from that

20 direction of Pofalici and Brdo -- Humsko hill and he was -- she was

21 wounded in one hand and on her thigh and she had a number of stitches on

22 her wounds, and she was given a medical treatment at the Kasindol Hospital

23 where she remained for 10 days for her medical treatment.


25 Q. I'm going to move on. I think we can all see what the document

Page 7277

1 says. The weapons involved in this document under number 1, MT --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you move on, I just want to clarify.

3 Witness, is there anything in the document in paragraph 1 that enables you

4 to identify the positions?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. This document that we

6 see here does not refer to the heavier weapons that were located further

7 in. The lighter weaponry that I talked about, from 50 to 100 metres,

8 refers to lighter calibre arms, 60 and 82 millimetres, which were situated

9 immediately behind the ABiH army lines. So that's where this is

10 mentioned. We have the PAM anti-aircraft machine-gun here with a much

11 larger range, so it has to have a clearing and it needs a clear space in

12 order to be able to fire. It cannot act if there are buildings in

13 between.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that the reference to a depth of

15 50 to 100 metres assists you in identifying the positions?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty?


19 Q. Well, that was my -- actually next topic and I think you've

20 started on it, Mr. Visnjic. The PAM there is a reference to an

21 anti-aircraft gun. An MT, that's a machine-gun, isn't it?

22 A. Machine-gun, that is right. A PM is a semi-automatic weapon and

23 so on.

24 Q. Okay. So no heavy artillery pieces mentioned in this document,

25 are there?

Page 7278

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And certainly nothing called a modified air bomb mentioned in this

3 document, correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. The last set of questions I have --

6 MR. DOCHERTY: And Mr. President I think I will finish up in about

7 certainly by ten minutes before the hour. I don't know if the Court wants

8 to go a little longer and finish with the witness. I don't think I can

9 finish by quarter to, but I could with an extra three or four minutes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, with the indulgence of the interpreters.

11 Try to finish. That is if Mr. Tapuskovic is not going to re-examine or if

12 he re-examines it will not be for long.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, I will have questions

14 for re-examination, Your Honours, I need to wait until the end of the

15 cross and then be able to give an estimate of how much time I will need.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll stop in a minute. One more question.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm going to call for an exhibit and I'm going to

18 ask for the witness to make one mark on it. Could we see the photograph

19 65 ter 2825? It's the aerial photograph of Grbavica that we've used many

20 times before. This is not on the list, but upon hearing the witness's

21 testimony I thought it would be useful to use; and as I say, it has been

22 used many times before.

23 Q. Mr. Visnjic, on the screen in front of you is a photograph. I

24 want you to just take a minute, familiarise yourself with the scene, I'm

25 going to ask to you make a mark on it. So just once you've got your

Page 7279

1 bearings, just let me know that you're ready to go ahead.

2 A. Yes. Do I need to circle anything?

3 Q. Not yet.

4 A. The familiar buildings?

5 Q. That's coming up. You testified about the Energoinvest building

6 and about the raid on it of 21st July 1995. Is the Energoinvest building

7 on this photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please take the pen and put an X through the Energoinvest

10 building.

11 A. [Marks] This is the right flank of the building where Investbanka

12 was, the invest bank.

13 Q. So to be clear, the invest bank is at that X and to the left, the

14 viewer's left?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I tender this photograph.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it and we adjourn until tomorrow.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours this will be admitted as P786.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of June,

22 2007, at 9.00 a.m.