1 Tuesday, 26 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, I understand you have some matters
6 to raise.
7 MR. DOCHERTY: Just one matter, Your Honour, and it will be
8 brief. On the 22nd of June, the Prosecution was notified of the Defence's
9 intent to soon call Witness T-22. The Prosecution yesterday, the 25th of
10 June, made a motion to exclude that testimony on the grounds of
11 relevancy. It was filed yesterday afternoon.
12 The Defence, of course, has under the Rules 14 days in which to
13 respond, but I'm wondering if as a matter of courtesy, more to the witness
14 than to the Prosecution, it might be possible to request a response sooner
15 than that, perhaps even as soon as the day after tomorrow, the 28th, even
16 if it is oral, since if the Chamber rules for the Prosecution on this
17 motion that would allow it to be decided before the witness leaves the
18 region and has the expense and inconvenience of travelling to the
20 That's all I wanted to say before the witness came in. Thank you,
21 Your Honour.
22 [Trial Chamber confers].
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, you would have received the Defence
24 65 ter list of witnesses and exhibits long ago, so why are you now at this
25 late stage making this submission?
1 MR. DOCHERTY: We were notified on the Friday, Your Honour, of the
2 witness's full name, date of birth, and of the Defence's intent to offer
3 his testimony on the 3rd of July, and we made the motion on the Monday.
4 The full name and date of birth are quite important in identifying these
5 witnesses and understanding their testimony when we do our document
6 searches --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean there was no name at all?
8 MR. DOCHERTY: There was not a full name, nor was there a date of
9 birth, and distinguishing by date of birth is very important because of
10 the limited number of family names that we work with.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But presumably the motion that you have made, its
12 substance would not depend on the name. It's the -- the motion that you
13 are making is based on the -- the summary.
14 MR. DOCHERTY: The motion that we are making is based upon the
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. DOCHERTY: However, the motion can change or relevancy could
18 have been revealed when we were in a position to understand the witness's
19 testimony by knowing who the witness was. A witness might well live a
20 long way from Sarajevo, for example, and that might be in the 65 ter
21 summary, but then when we specifically and uniquely identify that person,
22 perhaps it turns out to be someone who's quite central to events inside
23 Sarajevo. And I just have to say that this is a continuing issue with the
24 65 ter summaries.
25 A couple of witnesses from now a witness will be called -- we have
1 two separate people that we are looking at and finding documents on
2 because we don't have a father's name or a date of birth. And so this is
3 a continuing issue, and as I say upon being able to uniquely identify the
4 witness, which was last Friday, we brought the motion on the Monday. And
5 yes, it is based on the 65 ter summary, and if that's going to be fatal to
6 our submission, that's the way it's going to go, but that is the
7 explanation and the response to your question.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we can expect more motions of this kind?
9 MR. DOCHERTY: Unless we -- unless we start getting 65 ter
10 summaries that contain a father's name and a date of birth so that we can
11 uniquely identify the witnesses that are being called, I cannot rule out
12 additional motions being brought. We will do our best. I certainly take
13 the Chamber's point. We will go through the 65 ter summaries. We will
14 try and make any such motions based on the summaries, but even then they
15 could change or be withdrawn, for example, at the last moment when we
16 figure out who the person really is.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Docherty.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have anything to say?
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, briefly. During
21 the Prosecution case and having in mind the summaries we received from
22 them, in a number of cases all they provided was just the pseudonym, not
23 even the first or the last name. We tried in each and every case to
24 provide them with a first and last name. There's not a single witness
25 that wasn't identified in that way and we did this immediately at the same
1 time as when we did the submission of the 65 ters -- 65 ter summaries. We
2 are not bound by the Rules to provide the name of the father, date of
3 birth, or any other --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. We -- the Chamber will have
5 to come to a decision on this matter.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness be brought in.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's Mr. Tapuskovic, I believe, to conclude.
10 MR. DOCHERTY: I thought that I had a little bit of
11 cross-examination left to go.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, you still have some?
13 MR. DOCHERTY: I -- we wrapped up. I had finished one topic and
14 rather than continue to the next one, we stopped for the day.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I recall. Please continue.
16 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see the photograph which we
17 ended with yesterday, which I believe is Prosecution Exhibit 786.
18 WITNESS: RADOMIR VISNJIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Docherty: [Continued]
21 Q. Mr. -- sorry. I mispronounced your name. Mr. Visnjic, on the
22 screen in front of you, you see the photograph that we ended with
23 yesterday. And could you tell us again what's the name of the building
24 that has the X on the right-hand side as you look at it?
25 A. This building that I marked, I don't think it is the building you
1 designated as being the building of Energoinvest, that's not the
2 building. However, there was a Unioninvest building, and if this is the
3 Vrbanja bridge, then it should be the Unioninvest building where the OHR
4 offices are nowadays. If this is so, I might be able to point out the
5 building where the Invest Bank building was which was entered by the
6 terrorist group and they eventually managed to reach the third floor,
7 although I don't see here the Vrbanja bridge or the Unioninvest or the OHR
8 building. I also cannot see the former Assembly building. I do see the
9 land historical museum and some other buildings which are across from the
10 museum, closer to us. Could you please show me a photograph with the
11 Unioninvest building?
12 Q. Well, what we're trying to do, sir, is identify the building. Is
13 the building that the ABiH troops entered, where they got to the third
14 floor, is that on the photograph that is in front of you?
15 A. I'm not sure. I think these are the so-called Metalka buildings.
16 There was number 1 and number 2, but I'm not sure whether that's the
17 building that I had thought it was.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I did some thinking overnight. Yesterday I wanted to ask you to
20 show me the Unioninvest building or the Vrbanja bridge, and if I were able
21 to see that on the photograph I would be able to tell you exactly which
22 building that is. Otherwise, I cannot be sure. I think this is the
23 Metalka building, but this is not the building that we are looking for.
24 It should be somewhere to the right-hand side.
25 Q. Let me stop you there. Thank you. We -- if these are the Metalka
1 buildings, number 1 and 2, can you just tell us where the building that
2 you were talking about, the building where the enemy soldiers entered and
3 got to the third floor, where it would be in relation to what we do see
4 only the screen in front of us. Would we go to the right? Would we go to
5 the left? Where would they be?
6 A. I think it should be to the right. Can you show me the
7 Unioninvest building and the Vrbanja bridge? If you are able to do that,
8 I can tell you exactly which building that is.
9 Q. They are not on this photograph which is the one that's loaded
10 into the computer, so we can't show that to you right now, but there might
11 be a photograph that we will see in a couple of minutes that will help you
12 with this.
13 MR. DOCHERTY: For now let's take this off and let's put up
14 Defence Exhibit 272 --
15 Q. Which is the combat report from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 about the attack on that building that you talked about yesterday. Now,
17 yesterday you looked at this while Mr. Tapuskovic was asking you
18 questions, and we see here that the date on this report is 21st of July,
19 1995. Am I correct about the date?
20 A. Yes, I can see that the date here is the 21st of July.
21 Q. And in paragraph number 2 it says: "The action was carried out
22 against the Chetnik bunker in Ivesta Bank, third floor, in which
23 Chetniks," and then I can't read it, "were permanently stationed." Have I
24 read that properly?
25 A. Yes, you have.
1 Q. So what this report is talking about is an attack by the ABiH on
2 the 21st of July against a position of your army in the Invest Bank
3 building. Is that a fair summary of what the subject of this report is?
4 A. Yes, that's precisely what happened. Their sabotage group
5 attacked the building in which our soldiers were. They attacked one of
6 its wings. They took control of it and proceeded onwards to the third
7 floor, where I believe they killed two elderly people. While carrying out
8 that attack, they had significant fire support from the rear --
9 Q. Sir, I just need to stop you right there --
10 A. -- therefore --
11 Q. -- I know you've got a lot to say about this and it's an important
12 subject to you, but I'm just asking for now about things that are in the
13 document. So there were soldiers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in this
14 building on the 21st of July, correct, those are the troops who were
15 defending; correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And the building had been held by the SRK before the 21st of July;
19 A. Yes. It was the area of responsibility of my battalion.
20 Q. And this attack, although there were losses suffered, this attack
21 was repulsed. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not hold this building,
22 did they? They were driven out?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And this is -- and this building was then held by the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps until the end of the war, until Dayton; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This building is a tall building, isn't it?
3 A. No. Maybe some six floors, while the Unioninvest building was far
4 taller. It was under the control of the A B&H as of the beginning of the
6 Q. Okay. Now, the building that is concerned in this report, the
7 Invest Banka building, this building is along the Miljacka river, is it
8 not? Along the south bank--
9 A. It is.
10 Q. -- in an area controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during the
11 war; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DOCHERTY: And lastly, if we could please see Prosecution
15 Exhibit 201. For the record, this is not on the Prosecution's
16 spreadsheet. I did speak with Defence counsel about this this morning,
17 and there was no objection interposed to my using this photograph with
18 this witness.
19 Q. Sir, I'll ask you to just take a look at this photograph. As with
20 previous photographs I'll ask you to just get your bearings, figure out
21 what's where. There is an X on one building, it was made by an earlier
22 witness; you don't need to worry about that. But just take a moment.
23 When you're ready to proceed, when you're oriented, just let me know.
24 A. I think -- well, the high-rises here, it's Unioninvest and Vaso
25 Miskin factory with this smoke-stack as far as I can see. To the left is
1 Energoinvest building, its administrative building.
2 Q. Let's just hold on right there. Yesterday you testified about a
3 sniper team going into the so-called shopping buildings. Do you remember
4 telling me about that when I was asking you some questions?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do the shopping buildings appear on this photograph?
7 A. Yes, they do.
8 Q. With the usher's assistance, would you please draw a blue circle
9 around the shopping buildings. It will just be a moment, sir. This
10 technology usually works very well, but sometimes there are problems.
11 Okay. Let's try this again. Okay. Can you take a -- do you see
12 that photograph that's now -- it's to your right?
13 A. To my right, yes.
14 Q. If there's a pen there - and if there isn't, I'll give you one -
15 can you draw a circle around the shopping buildings, please.
16 A. Here, these are the two buildings.
17 Q. Okay. And there's actually three of them, it's just that one is
18 behind the others here, is that correct, so it's a little hard to see, but
19 there's actually three shopping buildings; correct?
20 A. It is possible, but I only recall these two.
21 Q. Okay. That's fine.
22 A. And I remember the high-rises that burnt down; they were on our
23 side. They were fired upon from --
24 Q. Sir --
25 A. -- these high-rises here. The person who put the X here was
1 wrong, I think, because the high-rises were burnt down on our side.
2 Q. The person who put the X there wasn't being asked about the
3 high-rises and so forth; it was an answer to a different question.
4 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Mr. President, I'll tender this photograph the
5 witness has marked.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As P787, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Tapuskovic.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judge Robinson, on
10 the photograph before me, I don't see any markings -- I don't see any
11 markings that this witness may have made.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, there are two markings.
13 MR. DOCHERTY: That is -- it's on the ELMO.
14 Q. Okay. This --
15 MR. DOCHERTY: Madam Usher, I'm finished with marking. Thanks
16 very much.
17 Q. This sniper team that went up into the shopping building, what
18 sort of weapons did they have?
19 A. Infantry weapons, rifles of 7.9-millimetre calibre, that's it. Of
20 course with an -- with a sight.
21 Q. I need to interrupt for just a moment.
22 A. I think that as of April --
23 Q. Just let me interrupt for one moment. When you say a sight, do
24 you mean a telescopic sight?
25 A. Yes -- well, I wouldn't call it telescopic in my language, but it
1 is the same sight as used in hunting rifles, if you understand what I
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. You mount it on the barrel and its range is quite great, up to 600
5 metres. This squad of ours, as far as I know, was formed sometime in
6 April 1993 but was disbanded in early October 1993. After that, I wasn't
7 able to observe those sharpshooters in my battalion. I don't think our
8 battalion had any left after that time.
9 Q. Okay. And this sight, you say it's the sort of thing used on
10 hunting rifles, so it's mounted on the barrel and you look through it like
11 this? You look through it, a little --
12 A. No. As we call it, we call it a tandzara, a shot-gun which is of
13 7.9-millimetre calibre. There is only one barrel as you have it with
14 hunting rifles. Next to the trigger there is a sniper sight mounted on it
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. -- and you observe through it. Hunters use the very same thing.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
19 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
21 Mr. Tapuskovic.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you talked about the meeting when the
25 decision was made. If you could explain in detail what was the target for
1 firing at this agreement in relation to everything that you talked about
2 so far?
3 A. At this moment I know that the commander Lieutenant-Colonel
4 Radomir Stojanovic picked a group of 12 people, due to a fierce attack
5 from the Pero Kosoric square and Pofalici -- no, not Pofalici, just the
6 square, this is Hrasno, from those high-rise buildings, they are high-rise
7 buildings and they just are a bit to the left and to the west when you
8 look at this picture and from the Mojmilo hill so that in the Moravska
9 street we had two snipers whose tasks was to follow the other snipers, see
10 where they're firing from, and to try to neutralise these snipers, as well
11 as the snipers from the Pero Kosoric or from Hrasno. This is something
12 that I know and these high-rises were the closest possible for you to be
13 able to see where the firing is coming from the other high-rise buildings,
14 and so that these snipers would try to successfully neutralise those
15 firing positions.
16 Q. Witness, well, let us look at document P787, this photograph that
17 was marked just a little bit before.
18 And can you please mark the facilities or the buildings where the
19 snipers were of the other side who, as you said, needed to be neutralised.
20 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see it on this
23 photograph --
24 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty -- sorry, please stop.
1 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting.
2 Usually it's not a problem to mark on the other side's exhibits because an
3 image of the Prosecution exhibit has been saved, for example, but here
4 we're using hard copy because of the technical issues. And so this is
5 going to change the exhibit. I don't have a problem with that, as long as
6 we can very clearly mark who made which markings. So if we could use a
7 different-coloured pen or write on it as to -- if the witness could make
8 an S by the two circles he's already drawn to mark "shopping" in the
9 English language, then we could go ahead from there. It would help if we
10 use a different-coloured pen. I used blue. If they could use red then
11 we'd be fine.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: How about blue, blue and red, blue for the
13 Prosecutor and red for the Defence.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't get the interpretation.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty suggested that perhaps we might use
16 colours to indicate the Prosecutor's markings and the Defence markings,
17 and he suggested blue for the Prosecutor and red for the Defence.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I don't have any
19 objection to that; no problem.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I mark this now?
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, please, just a moment. Please don't rush. Wait. Can
23 you mark the buildings where these firing positions of the other side were
24 that needed to be neutralised by these people who were given that
1 A. All right. It's this high-rise building, this high-rise building,
2 and this high-rise building here. These two buildings -- these three
3 buildings --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- this is where the firing came
6 from, as far as I know.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this
10 photograph now as it is now?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I've been advised, though, that we have to
12 consider whether this exhibit should be marked twice, and it would be
13 better to have it marked twice.
14 Court deputy.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, if I may. What I propose we do
16 is have this --
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, just one moment,
18 Your Honours, please.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe there was a
22 Q. Witness, can you draw a line here that would delineate the
23 positions of one side and the other side, that would separate them, based
24 on what you know, where the Miljacka River is.
25 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Energoinvest directorate
2 and the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Street that goes towards the tobacco factory,
3 tobacco factory. Now, here to the left from Energoinvest, Hrasno should
4 be on this side, our side, where they held positions. Now we have the
5 Miljacka --
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Since you are not able to find your way around, I would just
8 like -- ask you one more time to go back to the basic question. Did you
9 hear that there was any kind of assignment throughout the war? You said
10 there was a unit in 1993 which was given an assignment to act the way you
11 said against the firing positions of the sniper nests of the other side,
12 and now I'm asking you if during Dragomir Milosevic's time you ever heard
13 that there was a task existing in relation to sniper activity in relation
14 to civilians.
15 A. As far as I know, never -- well, this wasn't a unit, it was a
16 squad. And I said that it was active from late March 1993 until -- well,
17 in 1993 this section was abolished. During General Milosevic's time,
18 there was no sniper, nor did any orders come from the general to the
19 battalions about sniper actions, particularly not on civilian targets. In
20 1993 there was General Galic's strict order that it was not permissible to
21 act and that it would be strictly punished and brought before a military
22 tribunal if it was to be discovered that any sniper fired upon a
23 civilian. This is something that I know for sure.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions and
1 I'm not going to be tendering this photograph as an exhibit.
2 MR. DOCHERTY: Well, Mr. President --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. DOCHERTY: -- I understand he's not going to be tendering the
5 photograph, but that's not the way -- it's been marked now, and the
6 original was not preserved. So I would ask that -- I will ask the
7 registrar what's the best way to proceed in this. Maybe we can get --
8 when the SMART Board is working, if there's no objection, we could mark it
9 and put it in that way. I don't know.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the court deputy's wise words.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. My suggestion would be
12 to rely on the record and we have the transcript that shows what the
13 original markings were, as well as markings that were added by Defence,
14 and this Exhibit P787 only truly reflects the Prosecution's markings.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You see why I refer to his wise
17 Witness, that concludes your testimony. We thank you for coming
18 to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness?
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is Witness T-55,
23 Zoran Trapara.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.
4 You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [No interpretation]
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have just been
8 informed that there is a technical problem, and that until the break
9 nothing can be done about the markings that need to be placed on certain
10 documents. We're talking about maps. We have been informed by the -- and
11 I don't have the paper copies in order to be able to place them on the
12 ELMO. So there is a technical problem preventing me from beginning with
13 my examination-in-chief of this witness.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the technicians can be called in
16 right now to look at the problem, but they need to be at the witness's
17 desk. So the Chamber is going to adjourn for five minutes to allow the
18 technicians to do their work.
19 --- Break taken at 9.45 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, please begin.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
23 WITNESS: ZORAN TRAPARA
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness. Before we begin I would like to ask you
2 to pay attention to what we are saying and to begin answering my question
3 only after the cursor stops moving. As you can see, only when the cursor
4 stops, then you can begin to answer my question.
5 Can you please tell your first and last name to the Judges,
7 A. I'm Zoran Trapara.
8 Q. Thank you. You were born on the 7th of November, 1968. Is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In Sarajevo, in the Centar municipality?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You completed elementary and secondary technical engineering
14 school in Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You worked at the Famos factory in Hrasnica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And this was until the spring of 1992?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please tell the Judges where you lived while you were
22 A. I lived in Hrasnica.
23 Q. How far was that from the Famos factory?
24 A. It's some 2 to 300 metres away.
25 Q. And when the conflict began, did you change your place of
2 A. Yes, I did. I went to my family house in Donji Kotorac.
3 Q. Thank you. I received a document from the Prosecution. I don't
4 know if there's a translation. This is document DD004065.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if
6 there is a translation. We tried to see if there was one. I just have
7 one question in relation to this document. It's still not entered into
8 the e-court system. We did everything that we were supposed to do, but
9 it's still not in the e-court system. There is one thing that I wanted to
10 show the witness. Perhaps we could use the ELMO in order to do that and
11 to put this question to this witness, if you permit.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, just noting, I don't know what the
14 document is and DD004065 was not on the list of exhibits for this witness
15 that I received.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why wasn't it on the list, Mr. Tapuskovic?
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's true that -- in view of the
18 fact -- when we actually received the document, we put it on the list
19 additionally, but we did inform the Prosecution and we received the
20 document from them in any event.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That seems to be a standard reply.
22 What I would say, Ms. Edgerton, is that when you see the document,
23 if you find that you are in any way embarrassed by the lateness in the
24 notice, then you can bring it to the Court's attention.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And may I just add that the Court also avails
1 itself of the information provided by both parties to familiarise itself
2 with the documents prior to the examination of the witnesses.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not use this
4 document in order to avoid wasting time. I just have one question, if I
5 can put it to the witness.
6 Q. Witness, did you ever fire at your own people? I'm asking you,
8 A. It's not there on the screen. I don't see it. All right. All
10 Can I reply now?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. [No interpretation].
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. There's a mistake, if the interpreter can interpret this.
15 Q. You said no?
16 A. It says here yes. I didn't say "yes," I said "no."
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We see the correction that you have
18 made. We note it.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, can you explain to Their Honours what Sarajevo means to
21 you, I mean in terms of territory. Where is Sarajevo, on what territory?
22 A. In my view, Sarajevo is the biggest city, the capital city, in the
23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are three rivers, Zeljeznica,
24 the Miljacka, and the Bosna running through it.
25 Q. Can you tell us where these three rivers flow?
1 A. The Miljacka goes from Pale towards Bascarsija, Drvenija, Stari
2 Grad, through Grbavica, Potoke, Alipasino Polje, and it flows into the
3 river Bosna near Stup near Ilidza. The Miljacka -- or rather the
4 Zeljeznica has its source in Trnovo. It passes through Trnovo, below
5 Ceskavica [phoen] through Kijevo, Krupac, Lojkovici [as interpreted],
6 Sokolovic Kolonija, and at Ilidza at a place called Sustavci it flows into
7 the Bosna and those two rivers together make up the river Bosna which
8 flows through a part of Ilidza, Vogosca, and Ilijas, and then it flows on
9 towards Central Bosnia.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us the Zeljeznica flows by the airport,
11 doesn't it?
12 A. It's near the new airport at a distance of about a thousand
14 Q. And the place through which the Zeljaznica flows, what is its
16 A. Well, it's a large part of Vojkovici, then Sokolovic Kolonija,
17 it's near Hrasnica and Butmir.
18 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours around those three rivers, the
19 Miljacka, the Zeljeznica, and the Bosna, what is the configuration of the
20 terrain like? What hills are there around those three rivers?
21 A. Overlooking those three rivers are Mojmilo, Stupsko Brdo, Zuc,
22 Sokolje, Hum, Grdonj, Trebevic, and around Trebevic, at its foot-hills are
23 Colina Kapa, Debelo Brdo and Vidikovac.
24 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of when General Dragomir Milosevic
25 arrived at the head of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
1 A. Dragomir Milosevic arrived in early August 1994.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell me one more thing before I move on.
3 The area around those three rivers and the hills surrounding those three
4 rivers, what did this look like in relation to what was called Sarajevo?
5 What was Sarajevo?
6 A. Those hills that dominated over the town of Sarajevo.
7 Q. Well, that was not what I was asking you, but let's not make
8 things complicated. At the point in time when Mr. Dragomir Milosevic took
9 over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, who had control of the hills
10 you have just mentioned, saying they were around those three rivers, in
11 that area?
12 A. The hills were held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mojmilo
13 was under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sokolje was also,
14 as was Zuc, Hum, and Grdonj.
15 Q. Thank you. And on the south-eastern side?
16 A. At Trebevic, Colina Kapa, and Debelo Brdo were under the control
17 of the BH army, whereas Vidikovac and part of Zlatiste were under the
18 control of the army of Republika Srpska -- and that was where the road
19 passed through linking us up to Pale and the rest of Sarajevo.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, I would like to ask you a question.
21 When you say that the hills were held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
22 exactly what do you mean? Do you mean the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
23 alone occupied the hills or that they occupied a particular section which
24 gave them a dominant view? Were there other forces on those hills, apart
25 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is that they held
2 those hills and dominated on those hills, as I have just said, at Mojmilo,
3 at Hum, at Grdonj, at Zuc, at Sokolje, at Colina Kapa, at Debelo Brdo
4 beneath Trebevic, whereas the Serb army was at Zlatiste and Vidikovac.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Trapara, tell me now, when Dragomir Milosevic took up command
8 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, which army did you belong to and where
9 were you at that point in time?
10 A. I belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska. I was a member of the
11 1st Sarajevo Brigade, the 1st Battalion, 1st Company, 1st Platoon, in
12 Dobrinja I, Dobrinja IV, towards Donji Kotorac between the new airport and
13 the old airport in the direction of Hrasnica.
14 Q. Thank you. I will now show you a map of Sarajevo, this is 65 ter
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the southern
17 part, the south-western part of the map?
18 Can we scroll up a bit? A little to the west, please, so that we
19 can see the airport, to the west. More. More. More to the south, more
20 to the south -- ah, yes, thank you.
21 Q. Can you indicate approximately where you lived before you went to
22 Donji Kotorac.
23 A. You mean where my house was?
24 Q. Yes, when you were still working in Famos, can you mark it.
25 A. Just a moment, can I just see where Famos is here. You can't see
1 Hrasnica here.
2 Q. Witness, just mark the place where you were in your family house
3 during the conflict. Show us where Donji Kotorac is.
4 A. Here it is.
5 Q. Just slowly, please. Take it easy. And make a circle where your
6 house was.
7 A. Here, around here. Maybe a bit further up. Here.
8 Q. Please mark it with a K.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. And now draw the separation line between the Army of Republika
11 Srpska and the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. Thank you. Where was -- or rather, do you know what there was
14 below the airport?
15 A. There was a tunnel underneath the airport, through which the Army
16 of BH passed and their civilians.
17 Q. Can you show how far the exit from the tunnel was in relation to
18 your house?
19 A. Well, it was some 500 metres away from my house, but in relation
20 to the front line it was about 200 metres away.
21 Q. Can you mark on the map where approximately this was?
22 A. Here.
23 Q. If you can --
24 A. I'll mark it with a T for tunnel --
25 Q. Yes, but make a circle here.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. You just said that General Dragomir Milosevic became the commander
3 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. What was the situation at the time when
4 he arrived in early August?
5 A. Well, in early August 1994, there was a relative lull, a calm, and
6 the Muslim forces made use of this to go through the tunnel, to go towards
7 Treskavica and Igman.
8 Q. As you said, the exit from the tunnel was 200 metres away. Who
9 else passed by, apart from the soldiers?
10 A. Apart from the soldiers, the BH army, there were also civilians,
11 the civilian population passing through the tunnel.
12 Q. As you said, from the separation line where you were, it was 200
13 metres away. And you said that both soldiers and civilians passed by.
14 Did you fire from your positions towards those people with any kind of
16 A. No, we did not. We did not, because it was not our aim to provoke
17 a lot of fighting down there because our own civilian population lived
18 there, too.
19 Q. Was there any significance in the fact that soldiers and civilians
20 passed through together?
21 A. Yes, there was. The army made use of that in order to pass
22 through as safely as possible and take up positions on the surrounding
23 hills. I forgot to say that there was a mountain overlooking this area,
24 the mountain of Igman.
25 Q. Donji Kotorac is a place you mentioned. Can you show where the
1 hill of Mojmilo is?
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Yes, it says Mojmilo here, but where is the hill, actually, the
4 highest elevation of Mojmilo? Over which area does Mojmilo extend? Can
5 you indicate that?
6 A. Well, from Nedzarici --
7 Q. Well, draw that, draw that.
8 A. Like this over -- all of this was Mojmilo.
9 Q. Thank you. Mark this with an M.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. And over here, towards the south and the south-west, what was the
12 situation? What hills were there?
13 A. I didn't understand.
14 Q. You just mentioned Igman.
15 A. Yes, Igman. The dominating feature was Mount Igman. There's also
16 Crni Vrh, Debelo Brdo, Tresnjevo Brdo, and from Mount Igman you can see
17 the entire city of Sarajevo.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
19 Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, in the event we might be continuing
21 along this topic in the examination-in-chief, I feel I need to say so far
22 this whole story of who dominated what hills around Sarajevo wasn't even
23 mentioned in the 65 ter summary that we received. And I've been giving
24 this some leeway, but at this point, Your Honour, I have to say when the
25 Prosecution knows in advance that there will be witnesses talking about
1 the elevations around the city and who held of them, we have maps, we have
2 photographs and diagrams that we've typically been able to use to prepare
3 these witnesses and use in their examination-in-chief. And if I had known
4 that there was going to be extensive testimony about the hills, the
5 elevations, and control of them, I would have prepared accordingly.
6 However, that's not the case.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I hear the submissions.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in French before
9 me, I have it here. In one place it says: [In French] "The army around
10 Hrasnica and Gornji Kotorac. The formation of military units and the
11 confrontation line between the two factions, the two warring factions" --
12 [in B/C/S] and so on and so forth. Therefore, we have the places
13 specified. We know where this gentleman's position was and everything
14 else pertaining to the conflict of the two warring parties. I was
15 following this. We've come up to his positions. He was explaining to us
16 what Sarajevo was and who was at which positions, because he was a
17 combatant of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He is familiar with all of
18 these things. Therefore --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you --
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I don't see what it is that we
21 should have included.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Please proceed.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You mentioned three elevations on Igman. I cannot recall exactly
25 which hills those were, but what was their altitude, approximately?
1 A. Over 1.000 metres.
2 Q. Then I have to ask you to indicate those elevations on the map.
3 Please get up and do not reply but merely try to locate them on the map.
4 Please have a look at what the exact altitude of those elevations is.
5 What is the altitude?
6 A. 1400, 1500, and one is 1320.
7 Q. What did you say, what was your position in relation to that, and
8 not only your positions but everything that was below those elevations?
9 A. The situation was such that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had
10 full control over our positions.
11 Q. You said that initially there was a lull. When did problems
13 A. Gradually. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina used the tunnel to
14 move, to go via Igman and to regroup at Treskavica as well as other parts
15 of the theatre. They used that time to carry out sabotage actions in
16 order to try and push the Serb lines back. In September and October 1994
17 in one such sabotage attack in the area of Treskavica, I was wounded.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it time for a
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have another minute and a half,
21 Mr. Tapuskovic.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 Q. Tell me this: How many troops left Sarajevo? How many troops
24 moved through the tunnel and onwards towards the positions you mentioned?
25 A. It is difficult to say, but there were troops and civilians
1 non-stop, around-the-clock.
2 Q. What was happening at Hrasnica? How far is Hrasnica from your
4 A. Hrasnica is such -- well, the closest point of it was towards
5 Famos and towards Ilidza, the distance may have been some 3 or 400
6 metres. The centre of Hrasnica, where the command was and the rest, well
7 it's up to 1 kilometre away.
8 Q. Who held Famos, the factory you used to work in?
9 A. Famos, as such, was partially in the hands of the Army of
10 Republika Srpska, whereas the other part was in the hands of the ABiH.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll take the break now.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton -- ah, it's Mr. Tapuskovic.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. While we're still on the map, and so as not to have to go back to
17 it later, since I want to move on to some other documents, I wanted to do
18 something else. You've marked Mojmilo and you've marked the separation
19 line. Can you mark the road which led from Donji Kotorac to Zlatiste,
20 mark it there, please, across the map, wherever you see it.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I don't see the foundation here that might go to
24 support the witness's ability to identify a road. In fact, I'm still
25 uncertain as to what the witness might have been doing over the course of
1 the period of the indictment to be able to base any of his -- or to found
2 any of the observations he's making.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, establish a foundation for the
4 witness's ability to give this evidence.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Witness --
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By putting questions, you mean.
8 Q. Witness, did you belong to the Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. What were you in that army?
11 A. A soldier and a platoon commander.
12 Q. Were you able to use or were you expected to use the roads in
13 order to carry out your activities in relation to your permanent positions
14 at Gornji Kotorac?
15 A. No, Donji Kotorac.
16 Q. Sorry, Donji Kotorac.
17 A. Yes, I did, I was.
18 Q. Did you also go to Zlatiste in the period relevant for the
20 A. Yes, I did, to Zlatiste, it was the only way to move from Donji
21 Kotorac to Pale and other parts of Republika Srpska --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's sufficient. Move on.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] To go back to the first thing I
24 wanted to ask the witness. I wanted to ask him to mark the road he had to
25 use if he was supposed to carry out a certain task. Where was he supposed
1 to go, for example, if he wanted to go to Pale.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up here, Lukavica, and on to Pale.
3 It's difficult to get my bearings on this map since things are a bit
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In relation to Mojmilo, what was the position of the road?
7 A. A part of that road went just below Mojmilo at the foot.
8 Q. What was happening while you were passing by Mojmilo?
9 A. During combat activities, that part of the road was exposed to
11 Q. Let us go back to the time for which General Milosevic was charged
12 with. You said that there was a lull at that time. Where were combat
13 operations carried out at that time? You've already told us you were
15 A. I was waiting for the transcript to stop. At that time there were
16 activities in the area of Treskavica, Nisic, and the surrounding hills.
17 Q. Thank you. What was happening around Famos, where the factory was
18 in which you used to work during the time of command of Dragomir
20 A. That was the front line. It even went through the Famos facility,
21 and a part of the factory was used for some sort of production at the
23 Q. Thank you. At that time, on those positions where you were, were
24 there any heavy pieces there?
25 A. No. At that time all of the heavy pieces had already been pulled
2 Q. Please, finish your answer.
3 A. There were no heavy pieces there at the time. By that time it had
4 been pulled out beyond its range limit. I don't know exactly how far.
5 Q. You mentioned Hrasnica and Igman, you mentioned the altitudes.
6 Did they fire upon you from those areas and by using what weapons?
7 A. I didn't understand the question. I didn't hear you.
8 Q. You already explained that Igman was above Hrasnica, the
9 elevations that were there. Was there any firing from there?
10 A. At one point they fired from Igman with their artillery.
11 Q. Thank you. I was actually thinking about the time that you
12 mentioned, October when you were wounded.
13 A. Yes, but that was at Treskavica. At the time they used the
14 regrouping of their army and occasionally they managed to attack positions
15 of the Army of Republika Srpska. In that period when I was wounded, there
16 was a relative truce. We were at our positions. We were leaving to go
17 home, and their sabotage group conducted an attack. They intercepted a
18 truck, and some 13 to 15 people were killed or wounded there. That's when
19 I was wounded.
20 Q. And when did things quieten down?
21 A. Shortly after that there was a relative truce, and this went on
22 like that until June, until the summer, early summer of 1995.
23 Q. And when did the first skirmishes begin, what was May like?
24 A. May was the month of truce. I think that the blue road also went
25 through that section, but during the truce on the 12th of May, 1995, they
1 managed to hit my [Realtime transcript read in error "by"] mother and
2 another woman who were working in the fields. At the time they were just
3 resting in the field.
4 Q. What happened after that? And what was your mother's name and
5 what was the other woman?
6 A. My mother is Mara Trapara and the other woman was called Vera
8 Q. And what happened later in May and onwards?
9 A. After that, there was the regrouping. They started to go through
10 the tunnel, to the neighbouring mountains, and they were preparing for a
11 frontal attack on all Serb positions.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I continue
13 to examine this witness, could we please save this map and I would like it
14 to be tendered as a Defence exhibit, please.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As D274, Your Honours.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, line --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 32, line 22, instead of "by"
20 it says "may."
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Page 32, line -- managed to hit my mother, and we
22 have "by." Well, we thank you for that correction.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And this map, has it now been
24 admitted? Thank you.
25 Q. Now, can you please explain, you said that until May it was
1 quiet. Can you describe that time until May when you say that it was
2 quiet, at your positions primarily.
3 A. It was quiet. We carried out our regular assignments. Their army
4 was passing through the tunnel day and night, we knew that, we observed
5 it, but we didn't react to it because it wasn't our objective to provoke
6 actions. Families lived along those lines, the family Novakovic lived
7 along those lines. A man was killed along that line also by a sniper. I
8 forgot to mention that.
9 Q. In front of you was Hrasnica. Did you ever hear of anyone getting
10 killed from the snipers on the other side, from these positions where you
12 A. No, never, I never heard of anything like that.
13 Q. During that time of truce, the B&H army was constantly going
14 through the tunnel and it was at a distance of some 200 metres from you.
15 Does this document accord with what you are saying? I'm going to show you
16 document DD002665. Document DD002665.
17 Mr. Trapara, can you please look at the heading of the document,
18 the date, and what it says below, and then can you read these first
19 sections. And then after that I can put questions to you after the
20 explanations that you have provided.
21 A. Division command, strictly confidential, 02/2-2-153, rotation of
22 the 12th KoV and division of the 16th land army, zone of responsibility
24 "In order to carry out the routine rotation of the 12th KoVd unit
25 the battalion commands resubordinated to the 16th KoVd, and undertake all
1 the necessary measures for unit preparation and organisation for the
2 rotation, I issue the following order.
3 "Brigade commands shall immediately undertake all the necessary
4 measures to prepare the units - battalions for rotation of the 16th
5 Division's area of responsibility.
6 "During the preparations of the battalions for rotation observe
7 all current orders related to the numbers of officers and soldiers who are
8 dispatched to carry out combat actions."
9 Q. Thank you, thank you. The document of the 6th of August, 1995,
10 actually speaks about what you have already testified about, that you
11 watched them going out of the tunnel and going to their positions. So
12 this was on the 6th of August, 1995. How long did you have the
13 opportunity to monitor this? This is the 6th of August, 1995. How long
14 before this did you notice that and what was the intensity of this
15 occurrence in this particular period?
16 A. You mean the passage through the tunnel. They were constantly
17 going through the tunnel throughout 1994 and 1995.
18 Q. Even in this quiet period when you were not undertaking any
19 actions, as you say?
20 A. Yes, all the time, even in the quiet times.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please
22 tender this exhibit as -- this document as a Defence exhibit?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As D275, Your Honours.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Trapara, could you please tell me now what happened. You
2 already described what was going on in May and what happened to your
3 mother. And what happened then, in May and in subsequent months that
5 A. In this period when this document - because this is on the 6th of
6 August - then the Muslim army prepared a large action throughout the whole
7 territory of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
8 Q. Just one moment, please. The document is of the 6th of August,
9 but when did this begin?
10 A. I didn't understand. What?
11 Q. You said May, the document is of the 6th of August. Please listen
12 to me. When did that offensive that you're talking about begin?
13 A. I don't know when it began. I know it was summer, June, July,
14 August, I don't know the exact date.
15 Q. And how did it look like?
16 A. First, they struck the frontal positions. As far as my area of
17 responsibility is concerned, they struck Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV and
18 the town area in the direction of Zlatiste. They were hitting our forces
19 and then they wanted to approach from the back of the front, Treskavica,
20 Nisici, Treskavica, and other positions.
21 Q. I would like to show you document D107, that's been a Defence
22 exhibit for a long time now.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] So can we now look at that
25 Q. Mr. Trapara, can you please, very slowly, because we will finish
1 with this examination-in-chief quickly. Can you very slowly read the
2 heading, the date, and what it says below the heading, and in particular
3 this first paragraph and then I would like to ask you something.
4 A. "Command of the 12th division, strictly confidential, number
5 02/2-7-10 -- command of the 12th division, strictly confidential, number
6 02/2-7-10, Sarajevo, the 26th of June, 1995.
7 "Defence of the republic, military secret, strictly confidential,
9 "Proposal of targets chosen for destruction and tying up the
10 aggressor forces by units.
11 "To the commander of the 1st Corps.
12 "Pursuant to the order of the 1st Corps Chief of Staff, strictly
13 confidential number 01/3-151 dated the 25th of June, 1995, to execute
14 active combat operations in the area of responsibility of all brigades in
15 the area of responsibility of the 12th Army Division in order to tie up
16 the aggressor forces around the city and to stretch out the same offering
17 relief to our forces outside the city zone in the area of the
18 responsibility of the 14th and the 16th Army Division we send you
19 proposals brigade by brigade."
20 Q. Thank you. Is this what you said before about what these
21 activities looked like of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 when you were talking about focusing on specific actions. Can you explain
23 that again, the way you did a little bit before, now after you have read
24 this document?
25 A. Yes, I can. This was all with the objective of tying the units of
1 the Army of Republika Srpska to specific positions, and for them to be
2 able to use other positions to created confusion and a breakthrough.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, what is being said in this first paragraph here,
4 that talks about the 101st Brigade, and then -- can you read that. And
5 then at the very end can you please read another paragraph and then I will
6 put some questions to you after that. Can you please read the part that
7 relates to the 101st Mountain Brigade.
8 A. "The 101st Mountain Brigade.
9 "The 1st Mountain Brigade in the area of responsibility.
10 "The bunker and access from the road to the tunnel Dzakina Kuca
11 gun holes from the eastern and western sides.
12 "The hand-held launcher, anti-tank grenade launcher, squad and
13 sniper rifle and automatic rifle."
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the end of the
16 document now, that is page 2 in B/C/S and it's the end of the document in
17 English. It's the third page, not the second page, please, excuse me, the
18 third page.
19 Q. The end of that page where it says under 3 bb, can you please read
20 all of that until the end.
21 A. "Objective 1: MG in the D. Ponjarca Street first floor Dobrinja
22 IV group aim the RPG and the commander, the assistant marksman, the
23 sniper, and two automatic rifle operators, approves the expenditure of two
24 RPG projectiles, one combat kit for the PASP. 0.5 combat kit for
25 automatic rifle, target 2, the dormitory in the Miroslava Krleze Street
1 Dobrinja I group, marksman, RPG commander, at the same time, assistant
2 marksman, sniper operator, and two automatic weapons operators. Approve
3 the expenditure of two RPG projectiles, one combat kit for the PASP and
4 one combat kit for the AP."
5 Q. Thank you. Can you now look at the last page and tell us who
6 signed that as an order.
7 A. Commander brigadier Fikret Prevljak.
8 Q. Thank you. And now since you've already said what you said about
9 the beginning section of this document and these two combat assignments
10 that were issued, what do you know -- you already said the date and it was
11 all the way it is described here. What do you know in relation to where
12 this was in relation to your positions and what do you know about these
13 two actions?
14 A. I can tell you specifically about these two actions because they
15 happened in the area of responsibility of my battalion and my company. It
16 happened in the D. Ponjarca and Miroslava Krleze in Dobrinja I and
17 Dobrinja IV.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to the portion the
20 witness just read out he's read that out, Your Honours, because that
21 portion hasn't been translated into English, and now the witness is
22 leading evidence about information which is new to the English speakers of
23 this Trial Chamber which was not in the least disclosed to the Prosecution
24 prior to his testifying. So I would object on both of those grounds.
25 I've had no notice whatsoever, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you are saying is that the piece that he
2 read out beginning at -- where is it? 30 -- it's on the transcript but
3 that piece was not translated?
4 MS. EDGERTON: As far as I can see, and I've been trying to find
5 that portion on the English document available to us on e-court. It was
6 not translated at all. So for the witness to go further, Your Honour, I
7 would suggest would be inappropriate.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would agree, Mr. Tapuskovic. Why wasn't it
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This entire document has been
11 translated. I didn't pay attention to the English, but it has been
12 translated. Everything I have read out has been translated into English,
13 and it was disclosed on time. The entire document was translated.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have anything to confirm that?
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It can be brought up, Your
17 Honours. Let us see the first page --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not talking about the document as a whole
19 but the particular piece that Ms. Edgerton has highlighted.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But everything has been
21 translated. If we can first see the first page referring to the action of
22 the 101st Brigade. It begins on page 1, and that last event is on the
23 last page, and it's all been translated, 3 bb.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, is the passage beginning 3 -- the
25 3 -- the 3rd bb, the sleeping quarters, is that the one to which you
1 referred? Because it's in the English.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, now I see it, Your Honours, and I was
3 struggling to find it as the witness was giving his evidence.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Mr. Tapuskovic, you may proceed.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Trapara, these two events described here which occurred, as
7 you have already said, in your area of responsibility. What can you say
8 about them? Do you have any direct knowledge of this, of the way events
10 A. As for these two events, I can say -- well, I don't know if it was
11 exactly on that day, but it was at that time. They attacked the entire
12 part of Serb territory from Zlatiste and Debelo Brdo all the way to
13 Dobrinja I and the airport.
14 Q. Thank you. And as you were there holding those positions, Dzakina
15 Kuca is mentioned and then Ponjarca, D. Ponjarca. In view of this
16 location, what do you know about this?
17 A. Dobrinja Ponjarca Street was in Dobrinja IV and Dzakina Kuca is a
18 house on the other side of the airport towards the front held by the
19 Ilidza Brigade. They -- and also Dobrinja I at the same time. So they
20 launched their assault on these points in order to stretch out the forces
21 of Republika Srpska and to be able to go towards Treskavica, Hadzica, and
22 those parts where there was a war theatre.
23 Q. This other event that has to do with Miraslova Krleze Street,
24 Dobrinja IV and Dobrinja I, did it distract your attention? That's what I
25 wanted to ask you.
1 A. Well, as my company was linked to Dobrinja I, that was our area of
2 responsibility. We sent some of our troops to help there. An entire
3 platoon had to go and help in order to prevent them breaking through
4 because they had broken through at Trebevic in that time-period when they
5 managed to pierce through the Serb lines.
6 Q. And where was this?
7 A. Well, I don't know precisely but there was a part of Debelo Brdo
8 and Zlatiste around Vidikovac, that part up there, I don't know exactly
9 what part. And so we had to --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the entire
11 reply, response, the last part.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
13 Would you just repeat the last thing you said, Mr. Witness, your
14 last sentence, the interpreter did not get it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? In order to secure ourselves
16 and make sure that the Muslim forces must not break through our lines, we
17 had to strengthen our lines. Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV, we had a lot of
18 our own civilian population. I didn't say that just a minute ago.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And tell me, what exactly did you find out happened at Trebevic?
21 A. At the same time they managed to break through some lines at
22 Trebevic, some lines of the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. What did this look like --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, given that Trebevic is so far outside
1 of the confrontation lines with which we're concerned in these
2 proceedings, I wonder -- I don't see any foundation for the witness's
3 knowledge as regard to what happened at Trebevic which I don't think, with
4 respect, is within the area of responsibility of his brigade. So perhaps
5 that foundation could be established.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- Sorry, Ms. Edgerton, I don't agree with
7 you. If you wish, you can take it up in cross-examination and test his
8 knowledge, but he's a soldier in the army and I take it that he has
9 familiarity with these areas.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Well, to clarify this, you said what you did, but how do you know
12 about the events at Trebevic?
13 A. All of this was in the area of responsibility of my brigade, this
14 was the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. Our area of responsibility was from the
15 river Zeljeznica all the way up to Trebevic.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have already ruled. Just proceed.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Well, to round off this topic, in peacetime, the area across
19 Zlatiste, were there some actions threatening the area at Zlatiste from
20 the area under the control of the 1st Corps of the Army of
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not in peacetime but
23 when there was a lull in the fighting.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A part of the road leading from
25 Sarajevo across Zlatiste towards Pale was under fire from the Muslim
1 forces day and night. Trucks and buses passed by and luxury cars, and
2 there were a lot of casualties.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us, you lived in Hrasnica while you
5 were still able to work in Famos. What happened in 1992 that made you
6 leave your job and the house in which you had lived, your home, in order
7 to go to Kotorac?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, we're two years outside of the
10 indictment period here. I would object on the ground of relevance. We're
11 temporally outside of the relevant period for this indictment.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 How do you respond to that, Mr. Tapuskovic?
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point I
15 don't think I have to deal with that extensively, but the time-period from
16 1992 is in the indictment. It deals with that period. It is in the
17 indictment, and I simply cannot believe that this is constantly being
18 raised as an issue. But in order to save time, I don't think it's that
19 important for this witness to deal with that. But it is important to deal
20 with the time preceding General Dragomir Milosevic's time. So I have to
21 repeat at this point that --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I've said before that the mere
23 fact that the indictment period starts in 1994, but one is able to refer
24 to the pre-indictment period, 1992, because that is also covered in the
25 indictment, that doesn't mean that any and every piece of evidence
1 relating to 1992 or 1993 will be admitted. You still have to justify the
2 relevance of the evidence. That's the first basis for admissibility:
3 Relevance. So merely to say it is 1992 will not let the evidence in, you
4 know. But I see you are not insisting on it, so let us proceed to another
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Why did you take up weapons in 1992, in view of the place where
8 you lived and the job you did --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- If you are going to lead evidence about
10 1992, it must be evidence that is relevant to the indictment. Is the
11 evidence that you propose to lead now relevant?
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I started
13 questioning the witness from paragraph 6, and the witness gave us some
14 very valid evidence about paragraph 6, what Sarajevo is, that it's
15 surrounded by hills and slopes, steep slopes. He explained what this is
16 and who held those mountains, and then in points 7 and 8: "In Sarajevo
17 armed hostilities broke out soon after on the 7th of April, 1992,
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina," and so on and so forth.
19 So the circumstances in which armed hostilities broke out and when
20 I could continue from point to point, from paragraph to paragraph --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic --
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I didn't want to dwell on it
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Proceed.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, if you can, explain as briefly as possible what prompted
2 you and the people around you to take up weapons and to leave your homes
3 and your jobs and to go to your family house?
4 A. Well, in Hrasnica, which was inhabited mostly by Muslims, I felt
5 like a second-class citizen. I experienced this myself when the first
6 barricades were erected, the first barricades around Sarajevo. My friends
7 and neighbours who used to come and help me --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies, Your Honour, for the intervention, but
10 evidence like this is of a recurring theme that has to do with suffering
11 of people of Serbian ethnic background and a theme which my colleagues and
12 I have submitted repeatedly is irrelevant to the case at hand.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not irrelevant in this particular instance.
14 He has referred you to paragraph 7 which says -- this is paragraph 7 of
15 the indictment: "Shortly after Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally
16 recognised as an independent state on 7th April, armed hostilities broke
17 out in Sarajevo. Even before this date, armed forces supporting the
18 Serbian Democratic Party and elements of the JNA, including units of the
19 4th Corps, of the 2nd Military District, occupied strategic positions in
20 and around Sarajevo."
21 So that must allow the Defence to lead evidence in relation to the
22 outbreak of hostilities in 1992. So let us see where he is going, you
24 But Mr. Tapuskovic knows very well that the Chamber is monitoring
25 very closely the relevance of the evidence that he's leading.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Is there anything I need to
2 explain further, Your Honours?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, you just need to continue with your
4 examination, bearing in mind the need to ensure that the evidence is
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In other words, once again, as I asked, how did it come about that
8 you became a man who joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
9 A. After I left Hrasnica after all those events, it all happened
10 spontaneously. We took up weapons to defend our homes, our families. We
11 felt unsafe.
12 Q. Where did you live in Trapare --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Trapara, interpreter's correction, where did
14 you live, you Trapara family?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we, the Trapara family, have
16 lived in those territories centuries. We are indigenous people. The
17 entire area part of Dobrinja -- parts of Dobrinja, it all belonged to the
18 Trapara family for ages and ages. I came to my family house where my
19 grandmother lived after I left Hrasnica and after all these events I was
20 forced to take up a rifle to defend my family and the land of my
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And you didn't move anywhere?
24 A. No, I was there all the time.
25 Q. You were in Hrasnica?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was happening in Hrasnica? What happened there? Did you
3 have any problems prior to leaving and going to your family house and when
4 was that?
5 A. I tried to say that a minute ago, but I was interrupted by the
6 Prosecutor. It was during the time when the first barricades were
7 erected. I came to my house in Kotorac Donji. I had some pigs there and
8 cattle and I went to feed them at my grandmother's. When leaving
9 Hrasnica, my friends and neighbours were at the barricades; they wouldn't
10 let me pass through. And at a certain point a so-called friend put a
11 rifle against my throat and I was forced back. I realised what the
12 situation was, and as soon as I could leave, I went to Donji Kotorac.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: As a matter of interest, who is this friend?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a so-called friend.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, tell us, why do you say "so-called"?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because that man used to work in a
20 bakery where I used to take fodder for my pigs. He knew exactly where my
21 house was and why I was going there, but still he wouldn't let me pass at
22 that moment.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why? Why wouldn't he let you pass?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because he knew I was a
25 Serb. I didn't pay much attention to that at the time. I don't know.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And he was what? What was he?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Muslim. The barricades in
3 Hrasnica were put up by Muslims.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. My last question: What date was it?
7 A. I don't know exactly when the first barricades appeared, but it
8 was in 1992 in any case, March, April, I don't know exactly.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
13 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could we have one moment?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may, and please accept my
18 assurances, I don't do this lightly, but in light of the situation that I
19 indicated earlier on, the objection that I raised earlier on in this
20 witness's testimony with respect to the hill-tops and the elevations, and
21 I could name them if there's a need, a great many of them being on the far
22 side to the north of Sarajevo, far and away outside of the witness's area
23 of responsibility of his brigade and not a single one mentioned in his 65
24 ter summary. I would like to ask Your Honours' indulgence.
25 I've taken steps while we've been listening to this testimony,
1 working with my colleagues over the e-mail to prepare some maps that I'd
2 like to use in the cross-examination; however, the technology doesn't move
3 that fast, Your Honours, and it takes time to organise people. It takes
4 time to print maps, and with Your Honours' indulgence, I'd like to ask if
5 we could have a pause now rather than later and slightly longer to allow
6 for the maps to be brought to the courtroom, for Mr. Docherty and I to
7 review them, and then I'll certainly be prepared to begin my
8 cross-examination with I think every likelihood of finishing before the
9 end of the day today.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What period of time did you have in mind?
12 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps ten minutes longer than the usual break,
13 Your Honour. No more than half an hour. You see that the map just made
14 its way into the courtroom, so the timing is actually perfect.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll take the break now and resume at a
16 quarter past 12.00, quarter past 12.00. A quarter past 12.00.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I'm grateful, Your Honours.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just two matters before the witness comes in.
22 First I neglected to say that in the absence of Judge Mindua, Judge
23 Harhoff and I sit pursuant the provisions of Rule 15 bis.
24 And secondly it's to ask Mr. Tapuskovic whether in relation to the
25 Prosecution's motion mentioned by Mr. Docherty this morning, he would be
1 in a position to respond by Thursday, as requested, bearing in mind that
2 he would be normally entitled to two weeks.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, upon consultation
4 with my colleague, I can inform you that we will be able to submit our
5 response by Thursday morning.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Thanks.
7 Let the witness be brought in.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Trapara. My name is Ms. Edgerton, for the
13 Prosecution. I'm going to ask you some questions about your testimony
14 today and I'll try and go as slow as I can, but if for some reason you're
15 unclear or you don't understand the question, please say. Is that all
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And you speak a little bit of English or understand a little bit
19 of English, I think. Isn't that correct, Mr. Trapara?
20 A. A bit.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, just to begin with I wanted to ask you do
22 you understand that a summary of a person's evidence before he testifies
23 here has to be given to the other side, the opposing party. Did you know
25 A. I didn't understand the question.
1 Q. A summary of what you are going to talk about usually has to be
2 given by the lawyer for one side to the lawyer for the other side. Did
3 you know that?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. And are you aware that the summary of your evidence says that you
6 were in the 2nd Brigade, when you stipulated very definitely that you were
7 a platoon commander in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?
8 A. I wasn't aware of that.
9 Q. So you're not in a position to say how that came about then, are
11 A. I am not. It may have been taken down incorrectly. As of day
12 one, as of the first day of the war, I belonged to the 1st Sarajevo
14 Q. And did you tell the Defence you were a soldier or did you tell
15 them you were a platoon commander?
16 A. Both.
17 Q. When did you actually join up, do you remember?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. What date was that?
20 A. An exact date, yes, the 10th of April, 1994, as stated in the
22 Q. Now, prior to the 10th of April, 1994, did you have military
24 A. Military service, yes, I served my military term in 1987 in
1 Q. So what were you doing between April the 6th, 1992, and the time
2 you joined up in the VRS in 1994?
3 A. What was I doing in between?
4 Q. Yes, what was your function, what was your occupation?
5 A. My occupation was an electrician. I worked in the maintenance
6 section at Famos. From 1987 until -- until the beginning of the war,
7 that's where I worked, if I understood your question properly.
8 Q. And from 1992 to 1994, what was your function?
9 A. I belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Uh-huh. So you joined up to the Army of Republika Srpska at the
11 beginning of the war in 1992. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that was in 10th of April, 1992, approximately?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And from that point in time you were subordinated to the VRS, you
16 were a part of the VRS, as far as you were concerned?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you were a soldier for an extremely long time, and I would -- I
19 would imagine you're in a position to say how well your unit and your
20 battalion functioned over the course of time. Sounds like it must have
21 been a properly functioning military unit, wasn't it?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Who was your battalion commander?
24 A. There were several.
25 Q. Do you remember the names of them?
1 A. I do. My battalion commander was the late Bosko Vujadin. Before
2 him, Vuko Coro. Then Bosko Vujadin and then in the end Gavran Dusan,
4 Q. And who was your brigade commander, do you remember?
5 A. Yes. The brigade commander was Colonel Veljko Stojanovic.
6 Q. And was that from the outset of the war up until the end of the
8 A. I think Colonel Veljko Stojanovic remained in that position
10 Q. Do you know whether or not he had a rank in the JNA before the war
11 broke out?
12 A. I don't. I know he was a colonel in the VRS.
13 Q. Where was your brigade headquarters, do you know?
14 A. My brigade headquarters was in the Lukavica barracks, in -- or
15 rather, at Pavlovci hill.
16 Q. And how often were you required to make reports which would go up
17 the chain of command to your brigade? Every day? Several times a day?
18 A. I didn't have much to do with the brigade commander. I sent my
19 reports to the company command, who then in turn sent it onwards to the
20 battalion command, and so on and so forth.
21 Q. And did you -- how often then would you meet with your company
22 commander or your battalion commander to be briefed or receive
24 A. There was a meeting daily in the company command, and occasionally
25 there were meetings at the battalion command.
1 Q. And -- now, just in terms of your specific function, where were
2 you stationed? What part of the earth did you serve on?
3 A. Most of my time was spent on the line between the Novakovica house
4 and between the old and new airports.
5 Q. All right. Now, in your testimony you spoke in some measure of
6 detail about elevations around Sarajevo, and you gave the names of a
7 number of different hills, some of which were within your brigade's area
8 of responsibility and some not. Mojmilo, Stupsko Brdo, Zuc, Sokolje, Hum,
9 Grdonj. Do you remember that testimony?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. So I want to talk then about the elevations a little bit, but
12 first of all, and in line with that, I want you to have a look at the map
13 which appears beside you.
14 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, Your Honours, that map bears
15 the 65 ter number 02617.
16 Q. Looking at that map, and you can take a little bit of time, would
17 you generally agree that this map shows the elevations around Sarajevo
19 A. May I approach the map?
20 Q. Absolutely. Could you say your answer into the microphone,
22 A. I agree.
23 Q. Now, do you see a date on the top left-hand corner of the map?
24 A. Up here?
25 Q. Left.
1 A. No, that one. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And what does the date read?
3 A. The 31st of August, 1995.
4 Q. Now, do you see a name on the bottom right-hand corner of the map?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Is that the name of Dragomir Milosevic?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Now, you might not need the map to answer these questions, but you
9 can have it beside you for -- if you need some kind of reference. And I'd
10 like to put this proposition to you. All the hills in your testimony that
11 you mentioned as being controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't
12 it correct that they're actually overlooked by territory in the control of
13 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
14 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you please repeat it.
15 Q. Sure. Now, you listed a number of hills actually ringing Sarajevo
16 on all sides. Now --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- as you said, those were controlled by the Army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, looking at that map, isn't it correct that all
20 of the hills that you mentioned are actually overlooked by territory
21 controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
22 A. No, that is not correct. They don't dominate over each one.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wouldn't want to
25 confuse anyone. There was a half an hour break because of the maps which
1 were provided to us even before that, and this map that is here is not
2 different in any way from the map that is here. There is just a different
3 date on it. And I really don't understand -- well, the witness is being
4 asked something that is not -- not at any point something that he
5 mentioned during his examination-in-chief.
6 What I would like it to be known is that there is no difference
7 between these two maps except in the date and that there was no need for a
8 half an hour break because of that map, because we already had this map
9 which was given to us yesterday. I just don't understand what they want
10 to achieve with this when these two maps are identical.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what I don't understand is the point that
12 you have made.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Now, you said, Mr. Trapara, that they don't dominate over each
16 one, and there may be some exceptions to some of the maps that you
17 mentioned. So perhaps we could go about it this way. Isn't it true that
18 Sarajevo actually sits in a river valley, the valley of the Miljacka
19 river. Sarajevo's in a valley?
20 A. It's not true -- yes, they are in the valley but it's in the
21 valley of the Miljacka river. I said today that there were three rivers
22 that comprise the area of the Sarajevo territory, Miljacka river,
23 Zeljeznica river, and the two of them form the river Bosna. So it's
24 well-known through which areas of the town the Miljacka flows, the
25 Zeljeznica flows, and through which parts of the town the Bosna River
1 flows. All this is known.
2 Q. But Sarajevo's in a valley?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. All right. And isn't it --
5 A. In a depression.
6 Q. Isn't it true that hills like Zuc and Hum are actually high points
7 in the valley?
8 A. Yes, that's what I said.
9 Q. But all of these points, isn't it true, were overlooked by higher
10 elevations controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? And have a look at
11 that map if you need some assistance.
12 A. It's not necessary. They were below higher elevations, but these
13 were dominant points over the population of Sarajevo. You couldn't fire
14 at the town from Jahorina or Hresa or from other hills. I've forgotten
15 the exact names. The hills that I've cited were dominant and they were
16 used for fire by the Muslim army against the Serb army and the civilian
17 population of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. Now, you're a platoon commander, sir, so as a platoon commander
19 you're probably -- and you were in the army for four years, so you're
20 probably aware of how mortars are used. Is that right? You've seen them
21 in action?
22 A. Yes, I do know.
23 Q. And so then you must be aware that mortar crews can hit a target
24 that they can't see?
25 A. Yes, of course.
1 Q. And that's why they call mortars indirect fire weapons?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. What kind of heavy weapons are in -- were in possession of your
4 brigade from August 1994 to November 1995?
5 A. All the artillery weapons were removed from 15 to 35 kilometres,
6 I'm not sure about the distance, but they were out of range of the
7 Sarajevo area. There was an order that all the heavy artillery had to be
8 removed from their positions.
9 Q. Now, can I ask you to turn to the map behind you then and look in
10 the area of responsibility of your brigade because it's set out on the map
11 and ask you to find Tvrdemici on the map.
12 And you'll see some lettering in Cyrillic in black letters ...
13 A. I cannot find it. I don't see where it is written here, but I
14 know exactly where that location is.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
16 MS. EDGERTON: My mispronunciation of the name, Madam interpreter,
17 it's Tvrdemici, if that gives you some hint.
18 Q. If you can find in the area of response --
19 A. Yes, yes, I know, Tvrdemici, Tvrdemici, it's a location above
20 Sarajevo. It's some 15 kilometres away from my house in the direction of
21 Jahorina, but I cannot find that here. I know exactly where it is.
22 Q. Can you look at that map, sir, and in the area of responsibility
23 of your brigade find the black lettering that reads in Cyrillic "KAG 2."
24 You found it?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. The notations --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
3 Mr. Tapuskovic.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot see what
5 is being shown here. I agree, we can use that map to point out things,
6 but I don't understand why we're not using this other map that is much
7 more enlarged and it's easier to spot things on it.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why aren't you using the bigger map,
9 Ms. Edgerton?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Tapuskovic's map?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Is that the question?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the bigger one. I don't want to personalise
14 it. It's the bigger map.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with respect, the Prosecution's
16 entitled to choose whatever exhibits they might have -- they might wish to
17 put as part of their cross-examination. And if it would assist, in
18 e-court 02617E or 03326 are cut-outs of the area that the witness is
19 pointing to so that everybody is able to see clearly what he's talking
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, you have your answer.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. So now you found Tvrdemici. Now, the notations that you found,
24 would you agree with me, those notations KAG 2 and the numbers below them
25 represent the brigade artillery battery, don't they? 155 -- pardon me?
1 A. I didn't really know the abbreviations, so I really cannot agree
2 with you. I don't know what KAG means.
3 Q. And you wouldn't agree with me then that the notations there 155/4
4 represent an artillery battery of 455-millimetre howitzers?
5 A. I've already told you, I can't see what's written there, but I
6 really don't know what the abbreviation stands for, if it's a howitzer or
7 something else. It could be something else. I really don't know what
8 that means.
9 Q. Perhaps then I could ask you to turn to your screen and ask that
10 65 ter number 03326 be brought up. That's a cut-out of the area beside
11 you on the map.
12 You should be able to see more clearly now. I also see T-130. T
13 denotes a tank, doesn't it?
14 A. Well, I keep telling you but it seems to be in vain. I don't know
15 what the indications are. I don't know what H-130 means, what the other
16 abbreviations stand for, what the VLR-128 means. I mean, it could be a
17 tank or -- I don't know, but it's something that I really cannot talk
18 about because I don't know what it stands for.
19 Q. So are you saying that you, despite giving evidence in detail
20 about elevations and who controlled the elevations, that you are not able
21 to discuss the notations on a military map?
22 A. I cannot talk about abbreviations and the markings, but I can talk
23 about the places that are shown on the map.
24 Q. And are you -- would you disagree with me, Mr. Trapara, if I put
25 to you that the abbreviation KAR is an acronym for the Corps Artillery
2 A. I can agree with you that it means that, but it can mean something
3 else as well. KAG can mean a thousand different things. I can translate
4 or interpret abbreviations in the Serbian language in a hundred different
5 ways. I don't know. Maybe that's what it stands for, but I don't know
6 that. I was never in the corps command. I cannot know what they wrote
7 down and what that meant. I wasn't an active-duty military personnel and
8 I was just a regular civilian.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the rest of his
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Witness, the interpreter --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, Witness, could you repeat the rest of
14 your answer. The last thing we have is: " ... I was just a regular
16 What did you say after that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was just a regular soldier
18 and a platoon commander of the army of Republika Srpska, so I don't know
19 what the higher command responsibilities would involve and I don't know
20 what that particular thing could mean.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. But you're not disagreeing with me, are you, that this could
23 designate a Corps Artillery Group within the area of responsibility of
24 your brigade?
25 A. I do not agree with you. It could be an abbreviation, but again I
1 keep saying that I don't know what that means.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, just a minute.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that my
4 colleague now is placing herself in the role of the witness. The witness
5 should not -- should be asked to say what he could know, but now he is
6 being asked to do something and it's as if my colleague was herself
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's nothing abnormal about that kind of
9 questioning, and the witness has answered it.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Q. A couple more questions about this map, Mr. Trapara. If we can go
12 a little bit further up to the north, still in the area of responsibility
13 of your brigade, immediately above the letters which designate your
14 brigade's name, for Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, you see notation with the
15 abbreviation in Cyrillic BRAG-1. Would you agree with me that that
16 notation represents the Brigade Artillery Group and its position?
17 A. I don't know. I really don't know the abbreviations. I cannot
18 agree with you because I don't know the abbreviations. I cannot claim to
19 know something that I don't know. In Serbian there are many
20 abbreviations, BR can mean number; AG can mean aggregate, generator, I
21 really don't know.
22 Q. So I take your answer saying you don't recognise the
23 abbreviations, but are you disagreeing with the accuracy of weapons
24 placements as depicted on this map signed by Dragomir Milosevic?
25 A. I don't know if they had been placed there. How could I know as a
1 soldier who was on the front line where our artillery had gone? I don't
2 know how far this is from Sarajevo. There are maybe some 15 to 20
3 kilometres from my house to the Tvrdimici.
4 Q. Well, sir, you testified about locations further than 15 to 20
5 kilometres away from your house when you talked about elevations held by
6 the Bosnian -- the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I naturally assumed
7 that you would know of the situation in terms of weapons within your
8 brigade's actual area of responsibility.
9 A. I'm not saying that there weren't any. There were weapons and
10 positions, but I don't know where the weapons were. I was talking about
11 the hills above Sarajevo. Tvrdimici is not a hill above Sarajevo. It's I
12 don't know how many kilometres away from Sarajevo. I was talking about
13 fire from rifles or automatic rifles or machine-guns from the hills
14 overlooking the area. I didn't talk about this at any point.
15 Q. All right. Thank you then, Mr. Trapara.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if I could ask this map, Your Honour, and
17 the cut-out, so that would be 02617 for the map and the cut-out at 03362
18 [sic] admitted as exhibits, please.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 02617 will be admitted
21 as P788; and 65 ter number 03326 will be admitted as P789.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Trapara, what do you know about the use of air-bombs by the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps against Bosnian-held territory?
25 A. Air-bombs?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I don't know about air-bombs. There were no planes. As far as I
3 know the Army of the Republika Srpska didn't have any planes, they weren't
4 able to use planes.
5 Q. So are you saying you don't have any information about extremely
6 high-calibre 250-kilogramme bombs launched from mobile modified launchers
7 against Bosnian-held territory in 1994 and 1995?
8 A. I don't know about that -- just one moment. How could I have any
9 knowledge about that then because it would turn out that the Army of
10 Republika Srpska had planes. So the question is not clear to me. As far
11 as I know, the Army of Republika Srpska didn't have planes and it wasn't
12 able to use air-bombs.
13 Q. What I was actually asking about, sir, was extremely powerful
14 bombs, originally air-bombs, modified so that they could be launched from
15 mobile ground launchers. In fact, one impacted on a location in Hrasnica
16 very close to you in April 1995. Are you aware of that incident?
17 A. No, no, I cannot understand that such an air-bomb could have been
18 dropped an Hrasnica. It's something that I'm hearing for the first time.
19 You're talking about a launcher -- well, I don't know. Hrasnica was
20 dominant. Igman was above, and Igman is the highest mountain from which
21 the entire of Sarajevo was controlled. So I don't know about this. This
22 is the first time that I'm hearing of this from you. Perhaps the best
23 thing would be for you to explain what you consider an air-bomb to be. I
24 cannot understand that that exists. As far as I know, an air-bomb is
25 launched from an aeroplane. Well, as for anything else, this is the first
1 time I'm hearing about that from you.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Can I ask P225 be brought up on the screen for
3 Mr. Trapara, please. And I think the B/C/S version -- both versions will
4 have to go to page 2, please.
5 Q. Sir, this is a daily combat report from the Sarajevo-Romanija
6 Corps to the VRS Main Staff signed by Dragomir Milosevic. Now, at page 2,
7 paragraph 2 -- now I see two English versions on the screen. Yeah. Page
8 2, paragraph 2, under the heading "our forces," you see an entry that
9 says: "In Ilidza a 250-kilo air-bomb was launched at the centre of
10 Hrasnica ..."
11 Do you see the line I'm referring to? It's at the very top of
12 your page in your language, second line.
13 A. I see that. What it says, "In the Ilidza pbr one 120-millimetre
14 mine was fired and one 250-kilogramme aerial air-bomb was launched at the
15 centre of Hrasnica. According to the interception centre the Muslims
16 claim that the 'Luna' rocket had dropped or was dropped."
17 Q. Now, are you saying that this is news to you, that the SRK
18 launched an aerial bomb at Hrasnica in 1995?
19 A. What it says here is the Ilidza Brigade, and this is on the other
20 side completely, and this is the first time that I'm hearing about that.
21 It's completely on the other side of Ilidza. I don't know -- I didn't
22 know that there was an air-bomb that could have been dropped from
23 somewhere other than an aeroplane. As far as I'm concerned, that is a
24 completely new thing for me.
25 Q. So then, sir, you wouldn't know anything about the storage of
1 pieces or components of air-bombs in the Kotorac barracks in May 1995
2 then, would you?
3 A. In Kotorac barracks?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Kotorac never had a barracks.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have document bearing the ter number 03214
7 up on the screen, please.
8 Q. So this, sir, is a document dated 12 May 1995 from
9 Lieutenant-Colonel Solar to the VRS Main Staff logistics, stating that on
10 personal inspection of the brigade he found four pieces of 250-kilo
11 air-bombs, saying the brigade failed to inform them about them.
12 Does this change your mind about weapons being stored in Kotorac?
13 A. It says here: "While touring the 2nd Slpbr in the Kotorac
14 barracks. " This is the 2nd Brigade, it's not the area of responsibility
15 of my brigade, Srbl.
16 Q. Well, sir, Gornji Kotorac and Donji Kotorac being so proximate to
17 one another I would have thought you would have known something about what
18 went on in that location when you were so quick to speak about who
19 controlled hills around Sarajevo far and away outside of the area of
20 responsibility of your corps. Are you saying you don't know anything
21 about what was in the Kotorac barracks?
22 A. A barracks didn't exist in Kotorac. Gornji Kotorac or upper
23 Kotorac is the place of Vojkovici, actually I understand that now. That's
24 where the barracks was Vojkovici. Kotorac, Gornji, Donji, does not have a
25 barracks. Probably there was a mistake. There was a military warehouse
1 there, but I never had access there. But maybe this is a mistake in the
2 name here.
3 Q. So --
4 A. Just one moment, please. Kotorac was populated. What they mean
5 probably is Vojkovici. That could be the mistake.
6 MS. EDGERTON: With that answer, Your Honour, I'd ask that this
7 document be admitted as the next exhibit, please.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As P790, Your Honours.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. One last question in relation to air-bombs, sir, what do you know
12 about plans to use these air-bombs that we've been talking about on Donji
14 A. I didn't understand your question.
15 Q. Perhaps if I had a document pulled up on the screen in front of
16 you, you would be able to understand just a bit more clearly.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Ter number is 02324, it's P703.
18 Q. You see it now. It's a 26 April 1995 report from the SRK command,
19 head of artillery, Tadija Manojlovic, to the General Staff confirming that
20 on that date a decision was reached to drop air-bombs on the entrance to
21 the tunnel at Donji Kotorac and Hrasnica. Looking at that document,
22 Mr. Trapara, does that refresh any recollection you might have about the
23 use of air-bombs in your immediate vicinity, sir?
24 A. Well, it says here it's the area of responsibility of the Igman
25 Brigade, that's not my brigade. I really don't know about this. If such
1 an air-bomb existed, it could have been fired from Ilidza, if it existed.
2 I don't know that it did, but I don't know.
3 Q. Sir, have you ever met the accused in this case personally?
4 A. [In English] Yes.
5 Q. And when was that?
6 A. [Interpretation] I don't know the precise date. I think when he
7 was appointed corps commander, Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, he went to inspect
8 the entire unit and then he came to inspect my platoon also.
9 Q. So he came to the trenches where you were serving, you and your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that on one occasion -- sorry.
13 A. He didn't actually enter the trench, but he came to the front
15 Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion?
16 A. I think it was on two occasions. I'm not absolutely sure. I know
17 it was at least once. I'm not sure about the second time, but it was once
18 or twice as far as Kotorac Donji is concerned.
19 Q. And so the only time you met him is when he came to your post, in
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. But you've said before that you weren't a member of the senior
23 corps staff, so then I take from that that you wouldn't have participated
24 in any decision-making at the corps level. Is that right?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. So even at the time of the general's visit to your post, you
2 weren't involved of or aware of orders that might have been issued
3 regarding the shelling of Bosnian-held territory, the sniping, or the use
4 of these air-bombs that we've been talking about, would you have?
5 A. Can you repeat your last question.
6 Q. Not being a member of the senior corps staff, you weren't involved
7 or aware of any orders that might have been issued within that corps group
8 or even discussed within that corps group regarding the shelling of
9 Bosnian-held territory, the sniping, or the use of air-bombs, would you
11 A. I can't know that. I know there was an express order at my line
12 of responsibility. There was never a sniper, and our orders were not to
13 shoot during the cease-fire from any kind of weapon. Well, I don't know
14 what happened elsewhere, but I know about my platoon. I know what orders
15 we received from the high-ranking command.
16 Q. That's fine, and I certainly accept that. But now because of the
17 situation, of course, during the period of the indictment, in fact
18 probably from very early on in the war in 1992, you never went into
19 Bosnian-held territory, did you?
20 A. From 1992 onwards, I never went on to the territory controlled by
21 the BH government. I was always on the territory of Republika Srpska.
22 Had I gone there, I would never have come back.
23 Q. Obviously it was, at a certain level, dangerous for any number of
24 reasons, wasn't it?
25 A. There was great hatred.
1 Q. But wouldn't you agree that there was also great risk of being hit
2 by rifle-fire, gun-fire, mortar fire? The people who were inside the
3 confrontation lines - and that included Serb civilians - were at great
4 risk every day for their lives. Wouldn't you agree?
5 A. Serb civilians? I don't understand your question. I don't
6 understand what you're getting at. That it was very risky to go on to the
7 territory held by the Bosnian Muslims. Is that what you're asking?
8 That's how I understood your question.
9 Q. You said that it was risky because there was great hatred, but
10 that wouldn't have been the only risk if you would have made your way or
11 found yourself inside the confrontation lines, would it have? You could
12 have been shot any day. You could have been injured or killed by mortar
13 fire any day, couldn't you have? So the --
14 A. [In English] Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. [Interpretation] My house, where I lived, where I slept, was 2 or
17 300 metres away from the front line, and it was exposed to sniper fire and
18 barrage fire on a daily basis and shelling as well from the Muslim side.
19 And after a certain period of time when my late mother was killed, they
20 even killed my dog.
21 Q. I -- sir, you know we extend our sympathies for what you went
22 through in your location and in your situation. But as one Prosecution
23 witness said earlier in this case, there was no monopoly on suffering;
24 both sides suffered. Wasn't that the case?
25 A. Well, that's a fact. It was wartime.
1 Q. And my question to you, sir, was really focused on picking up what
2 you had said in your testimony about the risks of being inside the
3 confrontation lines. While there may well have been strong feelings or,
4 as you said, great hatred, there was also great risk from shelling and
5 sniping or, in fact, some winters from freezing or going hungry, wasn't
7 A. No. As for fire, yes, there was shooting from both sides. But as
8 for going hungry, I don't know how they lived there, what they ate,
9 whether they had food, I can't know. There are various kinds of
10 beverages, but many people became rich after the war. All that's Muslim
11 propaganda. I don't believe it.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. I don't have any further questions, Mr. Trapara. Thank you.
16 A. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have some questions, Your
21 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Now that we're dealing with the issue raised by
23 my learned friend about going hungry and about food, what was the
24 situation like on your side as regards food?
25 A. Well, after the sanctions imposed by Serbia on Republika Srpska,
1 our situation was worse than theirs. They were being financed by the
2 whole world. They brought food to Sarajevo by plane. 90 per cent of the
3 food that came to Sarajevo was sent to the town. Nothing reached the Serb
5 Q. Thank you. You said that your first commander, because you
6 answered a question about who your commanders were, you said the first was
7 the late Bosko Vujadin. How did he become late?
8 A. He was killed in 1992 or 1993 in an ambush, he and another
10 Q. After that my learned friend asked you something about indirect
11 shooting, and I'm asking you now whether one can shoot indirectly if one
12 does not see the target?
13 A. No, one can't do that.
14 Q. You were shown this map to your right.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Wasn't indirect shooting, firing, a reference to
17 Ms. Edgerton, the -- you had asked some questions about --
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- indirect firing.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. At page 58 my question was: "You must be
21 aware that mortar crews can hit a target that they can't see?"
22 And the answer was: "Yes, of course."
23 And then I asked whether -- if that was why -- that's why they
24 called mortars indirect fire weapons, and the witness then agreed.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that what you're referring to, Mr. Tapuskovic?
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then you haven't represented it accurately. The
3 cross-examination related to indirect firing from mortars, and the witness
4 did agree that that was possible. And we have heard evidence in this case
5 about that.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] He said that it was possible, but
7 let him then explain about this. Indirect firing is possible, but is
8 indirect firing possible -- well, let him explain what he understands by
9 "indirect firing" and whether it's possible to fire indirectly if one
10 does not see the target one is aiming at.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not going to ask him because we have had
12 enough evidence on that in the case.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's one thing to
14 fire at random and quite another thing to fire indirectly because any
15 targeting, whether it's indirect or not, is at a target. Random firing is
16 something quite different. So I'm asking whether it's possible to fire
17 indirectly from a mortar without seeing the target one is aiming at.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you want to put that question to the
19 witness? Because you didn't put that question to the witness.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the question I want to put
21 to the witness.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. That's the question you should have
23 put originally.
24 Witness, what is the answer to that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first understood Mr. Tapuskovic to
1 be referring to shooting from a rifle. That's why I said it was
2 impossible to do it indirectly. With mortars, it's very difficult to fire
3 indirectly. You have to see your target. That's my opinion, but I don't
4 really know a lot about mortars. There was not a single mortar at the
5 line that I was at. It was all only infantry weapons where I was.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I approach the
7 map for ten seconds, just to take a look at it so I can put a question
8 about it. Can I approach the large map and take a look at it so I can put
9 my question to the witness?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. If you can take a look at the exact date on that map.
13 A. The 31st of August, 1995.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you know what the
15 witness who drew up this map said about when it was made, but that's a
16 matter of comparison and it's not for this witness. I would like --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON: My friend may be mistaken, but this map wasn't yet
19 in evidence, so I don't understand first of all his comment what the
20 witness who drew-up this map said about it when it was made, and I would
21 object to his comment as being inappropriate as well.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Refrain from comments of that kind. Refrain from
23 all comments. Ask questions that relate to the evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I may be wrong, but I'm not aware
25 of it.
1 Q. But only the 31st of August, 1995, do you remember what stage the
2 conflict was in on that date, what was happening around that time at the
3 separation lines. Do you remember what happened then on the 31st of
4 August, 1995 --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer.
6 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but with respect, that's
7 not something that arises from the cross-examination.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does it arise, Mr. Tapuskovic?
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend
10 showed the witness a map dated the 31st of August, 1995. We dealt with
11 these maps. The 31st of August, 1995, was the first day of the NATO
12 air-strikes. That's why it's important. Does the witness know what went
13 on in those days, around that time, because this is a map from the end of
14 the war and it was formed under the most difficult wartime circumstances.
15 That's why the date of the map is so important.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but are you proposing now to elicit evidence
17 about the NATO air-strikes?
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, but I want to ask whether the
19 witness knows what was happening around the 31st of August, 1995, because
20 this is directly linked to the characteristics of this map. The positions
21 that have been entered in here correspond to that point in time. That's
22 not the point in time when heavy weapons were excluded. That was in
23 February, and the weapons were returned later on. This was the time of
24 the greatest offensive.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on, Mr. Tapuskovic. We rule that it doesn't
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Well, let's look at P789, that's a Prosecution exhibit, it's
4 another map.
5 Q. Can you indicate on this map the place where Donji Kotorac is
6 located and can you mark it, please?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours, I actually even had to check
9 with my colleague, but how does this arise from cross, asking one to mark
10 a new location on a map that's been entered into evidence?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't mark anything.
12 Mr. Tapuskovic, what is this about?
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we listened to what my learned
16 friend dealt with about the positions of these weapons that the witness
17 said he knew nothing about, when he shows where Kotorac is, then it will
18 follow quite logically that from the place where he was, there were no
19 heavy weapons nearby marked in any way. You can see that Donji Kotorac is
20 on the separation line itself, and looking at this map within 8 kilometres
21 of that location, if each of these squares represents 2 kilometres, there
22 were no heavy weapons anywhere close. So when he shows where Donji
23 Kotorac is, this will become quite clear in relation to the positions my
24 learned friend was insisting on, Donji Kotorac, if he only shows where it
25 is and marks it, and nothing more.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I'm reinforced in my objection, Your Honour, now
3 that I've heard my friend's submission. This is squarely not something
4 that he's entitled to do in re-examination.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not the purpose of re-examination. Move
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P225, P225 -- or
9 rather, P790. I didn't note it down correctly. It was those documents.
10 Just a moment, Your Honours.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was right the first time, 790.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must get a move on. Let us
14 move on. Either you have a question or you don't. If you don't, we'll
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was right the first time. I
17 said P790.
18 Q. This document was shown to you my learned friend, and she insisted
19 on the barracks. Please read the first paragraph where reference is made
20 to these matters while visiting. What does it say here, please?
21 A. "While visiting the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade in the
22 Kotorac barracks we discovered by personal inspection that they possessed
23 four pieces of 250-kilogramme M-72 aerial bombs without fuses and rocket
24 tensions and with mechanically damaged stabilisers and bomb bodies. We
25 did not know that the bombs existed and the brigade failed to inform us
1 about them."
2 Q. Thank you and the next sentence.
3 A. "According to their information, FAB were recently dug out in the
4 Krupac stone pit during engineering works. We ask you to --"
5 Q. Thank you. Can you draw any conclusion from this?
6 A. I've already said I never heard of this. I didn't know it
8 Q. But that's food for thought and that's not your job. Thank you.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
11 Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving it.
12 You may now leave.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness, please.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we were informed
16 that the witness is experiencing some ear pain, so he's not readily
17 available here at the Tribunal; otherwise he is here in The Hague.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, is this the witness? I see.
21 Let the witness make the declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
25 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honours.
3 WITNESS: STJEPAN DJUKIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, tell us your last and first name, please.
7 A. My name is Stjepan Djukic.
8 Q. You were born on the 15th of January, 1972?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Please wait for the entire question to be recorded before
11 answering. So far this has been working because the questions and answers
12 were short, but please wait for my question to be recorded completely.
13 You were born in Hadzici, in Ilijas municipality?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You completed your primary education in Ilijas?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You completed your secondary education in Ilidza in 1992?
18 A. [No interpretation].
19 Q. What were you supposed to do right after you completed your
21 A. After I completed my education I was supposed to serve under the
22 laws of the then-FRY, and having turned 18 I was supposed to serve my
23 military term.
24 Q. Thank you. When did you begin with your military service?
25 A. I began my military service on the 15th of March, 1991, in Banja
1 Luka. I was to be trained as a member of the armoured mechanised unit.
2 Q. This was March 1991 when you went to serve your military term.
3 What did you feel like?
4 A. To be honest, at that time anyone coming from -- or being of
5 Serbian ethnic background considered serving a military term an honour;
6 therefore, I went to do that gladly.
7 Q. Were you able to foresee that anything unpleasant or problematic
8 might await you while you served your military term?
9 A. At the time when I left, when I was getting ready to join the JNA,
10 at that time I wasn't even contemplating any unpleasant situations or
11 problems that I might encounter there.
12 Q. Please explain to us the following. You were in Banja Luka. Were
13 there any changes and when did problems begin occurring?
14 A. Upon my arrival in the JNA, in Banja Luka, to the training centre
15 for armoured and mechanised units in Zaluzani, there were no problems,
16 there were no unpleasant situations and I couldn't foresee any of that
17 coming any time soon.
18 Q. Thank you. As a soldier, what were you supposed to do? Were you
19 trained in anything?
20 A. Upon my arrival into the barracks at Zaluzani to the training
21 centre for armoured and mechanised units, I was trained to be a driver of
22 the T-55 tank.
23 Q. Concerning the rest of your service with the JNA, were you
24 transferred anywhere and what was going on?
25 A. I would kindly ask you to allow more time for me to be able to
1 explain my military term with the JNA in full with your following
3 Q. Okay. Please let us explain whether you were transferred and what
4 was happening. Did you become upset over anything at a certain point in
6 A. I understand your question. After the initial training period was
7 completed in Banja Luka, I was transferred to Bjelovar in the Republic of
8 Croatia. Upon my arrival in Bjelovar, I was quite surprised by the
9 unusual situation I encountered. There was a great concern in the
10 barracks, since the barracks were without electricity, water, and within
11 its perimeter there were embankments for the soldiers who were supposed to
12 stand guard. In the dorm --
13 Q. Excuse me. I understand your need to discuss such details, but
14 tell me some of the key things since we need to move along faster.
15 A. Very well. I stayed there for some five to seven days. In the
16 town we could hear firing, and I prayed God that I leave Belgrade and be
17 transferred -- Bjelovar and be transferred somewhere else. And
18 thankfully, that happened. I left Bjelovar for Koprivnica. As opposed to
19 Bjelovar, things were quite calmer there.
20 Q. When did you encounter problems?
21 A. After a short while, the problems began in Slunj. We were in the
22 field. We were supposed to establish a buffer zone there between Serbs
23 and Croats, so as try and prevent conflicts. After that we were
24 transferred to Varazdin, where problems escalated. In the second half of
25 June, I believe, or towards end June, there were great problems in
1 Slovenia. For us, the young soldiers there, it had a great negative
2 impact and the pervading atmosphere encompassed the entire barracks in
3 Varazdin. We were provoked from outside the perimeter of the barracks.
4 People were trying to persuade us that we should desert, that we should
5 skip the army since we had nothing to do with that. We were put under
6 psychological pressure, and speakers were mounted around the barracks --
7 Q. Can you tell me exactly what happened, something that was more
8 important. When was the situation the worst? Please move along more
10 A. I have to state that what followed was basically a siege of the
11 barracks. There was no electricity. We had to pump water and until the
12 18th of October the situation remained as such. It was then that fire was
13 opened on the barracks, a soldier was wounded, and I think we also had
14 several soldiers killed.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, it's about time for the break.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe this would help to change the character of
17 things for our recommencement tomorrow morning, Your Honour, but I rise on
18 the point of relevancy, in the first place, because we're still outside of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina; and secondly, this is completely outside of what
20 was disclosed as what might be this witness's potential testimony.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I've been giving the witness a little time
22 to come to something that is more pertinent, and tomorrow we will see
23 whether he has anything to offer that is relevant. Please bear that in
24 mind, Mr. Tapuskovic.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
2 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.