1 Tuesday, 3 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should explain at the outset that we are late
8 in starting because we had some technical issues that had to be resolved.
9 Mr. Tapuskovic, you are to continue.
10 WITNESS: STJEPAN DJUKIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic: [Continued]
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,
14 thank you. With us is Awuskha Laloe, who is an intern of ours. She is
15 here to try and enhance our ability to communicate with the accused. I
16 thought it necessary to advise you on her presence here, on the presence
17 of another member of the team.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very good of you, Mr. Tapuskovic.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Djukic, let us pick up where we left off a few days ago.
21 First of all, to start with, can you tell the Judges when you
22 joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
23 A. I joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in the second half of May or
24 in early June 1992.
25 Q. Can you tell the Judges something about the place where you were.
1 Who were the people there who joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
2 A. I can tell you something about the territory where I was. On that
3 territory, the people who joined were mainly the local citizens and I was
4 one of them.
5 Q. Thank you. Which brigade was that?
6 A. At first, it was called the Ilijas Brigade.
7 Q. What did you mean by saying at first it was called the Ilijas
9 A. I wanted to say that the Ilijas Brigade as such existed until
10 1994. I was a member of it. As of 1994, my area of responsibility fell
11 under another brigade, when General Milosevic assumed command of the
12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
13 Q. Can you tell us who commanded that brigade when the
14 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps commander was General Dragomir Milosevic?
15 A. The commander of the 1st Romanija brigade that I was a member of
16 was Colonel Vlado Lizdek.
17 Q. Can you tell the Judges when General Dragomir Milosevic assumed
18 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
19 A. General Milosevic assumed command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
20 in the summer of 1994.
21 Q. Until his arrival, what were you doing in the Sarajevo-Romanija
22 Corps? What were you?
23 A. At the beginning, in 1992, and the first half of it was relatively
24 calm, I was a private.
25 Q. Did I understand you well, you mentioned 1992 and you said that it
1 was calm.
2 A. Well, if I may explain. In the territory where I was, until
3 mid-June of that year, until the 12th of June, that territory was pretty
4 calm. Until the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina carried out a mass murder
5 in the village of Crmaljino [phoen], which is not far from our -- my
7 Q. What did happen exactly?
8 A. That morning, at dawn, one could hear shooting from my village.
9 We didn't know what was happening. It lasted shortly, I'd say for a few
11 After that, we learned that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the
12 Muslim forces entered the village and committed a disgraceful act, that
13 is, the people that were found were killed and houses set on fire. They
14 destroyed the property there.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm actually I'm raising on the point
17 of relevancy and one might have expected, but relevancy because while I
18 see we are outside of the indictment period and far outside of the
19 indictment period, we actually have no idea what area this witness is
20 talking about other than maybe somewhere in the municipality of Ilijas,
21 and I for one, Your Honour, am not in a position to even preliminarily
22 assess the relevancy until we have some further definition or
23 understanding of exactly where he is talking about.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you have heard the objection.
25 What is your response to it?
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was about to try to get from
2 the witness some additional information about where Ilijas is, in whose
3 area of responsibility it is, and I believe that the time of the beginning
4 of the conflict is of importance in order to understand the behaviour of
5 those people who took up arms. The general context, that is. Which is
6 very important. I've only just begun examining the witness on that and I
7 wanted to gain some explanation in order for the Chamber to understand
8 where Ilijas is and whether it was within the AOR of the Sarajevo-Romanija
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: But that by itself wouldn't make it relevant,
11 even if it were within the area of responsibility of the corps.
12 Please remember the golden rule that evidence of Serb suffering is
13 not by itself necessarily relevant.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll allow you to go further but
19 you must establish very quickly the relevance of this evidence, otherwise,
20 I'll tell to you proceed to another area of evidence that is relevant.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness
22 spontaneously said some things I had not asked about. I did not stop him,
23 though. I tried to move on to 1994. However, the witness volunteered the
24 information about 1992.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you just move on? I've said that I
1 allowed it.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Djukic, when you said that you were a member of the 1st
4 Sarajevo Brigade, at that time in 1994 what were you then exactly at the
5 moment when the 1st Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was commanded by General
6 Dragomir Milosevic?
7 A. At that time, too, I was a soldier, a member of the army of the
8 Republika Srpska, when General Milosevic assumed the command of the corps.
9 Q. Thank you. What were your tasks up until that time?
10 A. Before that, I was a tank driver.
11 Q. Can you tell the Judges what was it that happened in 1994 that
12 remains etched in your memory as something of importance, before General
13 Dragomir Milosevic assumed his position?
14 A. I failed to understand, Mr. Tapuskovic.
15 Q. Did something happen that year, something that had to do with
16 heavy weapons?
17 A. Yes. It did have to do with the heavy weaponry.
18 I, as an ordinary soldier remember General Milosevic because, at
19 that time, heavy weaponry with withdrawn outside of the immediate zone of
20 20 kilometres. Also, during some intensive offensives, he managed to stop
21 Muslims from advancing.
22 Q. You said you were a tank driver. That year after the heavy
23 weapons were withdrawn outside of the 20-kilometre zone were there any
24 changes in your unit?
25 A. Yes. That is what I wanted to say before you interrupted me.
1 What I mentioned the pull-out of the heavy weapons out of the 20-kilometre
2 zone, tanks were pulled out as well, and guns, Howitzers, mortars, and all
3 that happened during General Milosevic's time. It was withdrawn and
4 deployed in the wider area of the Nisici plateau. That's whey now about.
5 However I heard of another area at Trnovo that there too a large number of
6 pieces were pulled out.
7 Q. Why in those two particular areas or directions?
8 A. I think it's clear if I say outside of the 20-kilometre zone,
9 starting from Sarajevo, that it means that it was the area of the 1st
10 Romanija Brigade. At Nisici, the distance is about 30 kilometres.
11 Q. Did you receive any other assignments? Before that you had driven
12 a tank. Were you given any other assignments or any other pieces of
14 A. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
15 Q. You have to explain it to the Judges.
16 A. I apologise.
17 Yes. After three additional tanks arrived, a tank platoon was
18 formed. The platoon was commanded at first Panto Bozic and since I was
19 the one who was the most familiar with the area, I was appointed as his
20 deputy in that part of the area of responsibility.
21 Q. Do you know from which locations those tanks arrived?
22 A. Those tanks came from Sarajevo, for the most part. From Ilijas,
23 Hadzic, and Ilidza.
24 Q. I would like to show you a map which will enable us to explain
25 things further to the Judges.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is DD00-4064. It is one of
2 the maps out of a set of maps forwarded by the Prosecution.
3 Q. Can you please indicate the Ilijas municipality, where you lived
4 and tell us to which town it belonged?
5 A. When we're talking about the Ilijas municipality, it's a part of
6 the city of Sarajevo.
7 Q. Can you please indicate the boundaries.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. In terms of what you marked there, are you able to point out for
10 the Judges how many municipalities there were in the Sarajevo area?
11 A. The town of Sarajevo consisted of the following municipalities.
12 Ilijas to the north, that would be the municipality of Ilijas, bordering
13 on Vogosca municipality; then Centar; Novi Grad including new Sarajevo;
14 Hadzici; Ilidza; new Sarajevo; Trnovo; old town, Stari Grad; and Pale.
15 Excuse me, please, I apologise for my markings, but basically that
16 would be it.
17 Q. Are you familiar with the geographic characteristics of the
18 territories of Ilidza, Stari Grad, Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo? Could you
19 please indicate a few points that you know are higher points in relation
20 to their surroundings?
21 A. Yes. But you would just need to give me a little bit more time,
22 because they are hard to see.
23 Q. If you go from municipality to municipality, you can just give us
24 an approximate position.
25 A. Well, I can talk about the approximate position in the
1 municipalities that I'm particularly familiar with, and that would be
2 Ilijas, Vogosca, Hadzici, and Ilidza municipalities, where I had many
3 relatives of mine.
4 I'm going to start from Ilijas. Is it necessary to actually mark
5 the places or just to speak about them?
6 Q. These points that have to do with the municipalities of Ilidza,
7 Vogosca, Centar, can you please tell us something about that, if you were
8 in a position to be familiar with these places, as you said?
9 A. Since I left my home in 1994 and fled to the Vogosca municipality,
10 I can then describe the characteristics for that area.
11 The dominant elevations that were held by the armed forces of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Vogosca were as follows. Zuc as one of the most
13 dominant elevations.
14 Q. Can you please indicate that with a circle?
15 A. I really cannot find it here. I know where it is in my head but I
16 really cannot see it here.
17 Q. All right. Well, then, just wait for a second. Can you at least
18 indicate the places in Vogosca, Ilidza, and Centar if you're unable to
19 point them out?
20 A. In Vogosca it was Zuc, Orlic, Hum, these were the most important
21 and the highest elevations under the control of -- they were controlled
22 from the town via the Rosulje Hotun settlements. The second municipality
23 that I can mention is Hadzici. Then Ilidza. That's where the Mount Igman
24 was, which is over 1600 metres above sea level. Then Crni Vrh, Golo Brdo,
25 those areas also made it possible to have control over the southern part
1 of Trnovo municipality.
2 Also Mount Orman, which is about 1.200 metres high, and other
4 Q. Can you also tell us something about the southern area, tell us
5 what you know and then we can finish with that.
6 A. The municipality here in the southern part is Mojmilo. Actually,
7 Mojmilo is one of the most important elevations through which it was
8 possible to control the entire area of Grbavica as well as the
9 Grbavica-Vrace road, and that then goes in the direction of the north-east
10 towards Pale.
11 Q. And you said that all this was under the control of the army of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And were any of those elevations under the
13 control of the army of Republika Srpska?
14 A. When we're talking about these dominant elevations, which I
15 mentioned, especially elevations Zuc, Orlic, and the others that I
16 mentioned, the other ones, these elevations were held by the Muslims by
17 The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The -- they -- those forces held the
18 main peak. The lines of separation were close to that, some 100 metres
19 off, so that when we're talking about these dominant elevations what I
20 would like to say, also when we're talking about the city of Sarajevo, is
21 that besides the dominant elevations there were also some other locations,
22 buildings or facilities that were built and that were under the control of
23 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that offered a view overlooking the
24 elevations and the points held by the army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. I asked if you knew about any elevation that was under the control
1 of the army of Republika Srpska to the east and did you know --
2 A. Of course I knew.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
4 Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, this has gone on for some time now and
6 perhaps my fault in that I let it go, but this whole line of questioning
7 is without any foundation whatsoever to underpin the witness' answers.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean by it's lacking in foundation.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, we still don't know where he was
10 serving in his own municipality and now we're on the far west side or the
11 south side of Sarajavo without any evidence of whether he's visited these
12 areas, he's received reports about any events going on these areas, he's
13 had any experience in mapping so he's able to talk about the heights that
14 he is discussing with such knowledge and familiarity.
15 I would suggest, Your Honour, there is no foundation and the line
16 of question is inappropriate up to this point without that being
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must get from the witness the
19 basis of his knowledge of these matters. How did he acquire this
20 knowledge and familiarity with these matters?
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, you heard what His Honour Judge Robinson said and I
23 wanted to ask you as this is very important how you happen to know all of
24 this, that the elevations were of such characteristics and under whose
25 control they were. Were you familiar with that as a soldier? Simply, can
1 you please say how you knew these things?
2 A. Well, I'll just be very simple. This is the territory of the town
3 of Sarajevo and I indicated that in red marker. This is the place where I
4 was born, the town of Ilijas. I went to school in Ilidza. I had close
5 relatives throughout Sarajevo. I had relatives in each municipality,
6 close relatives.
7 When we look at the distance of the municipalities that I talked
8 about, it's a fact that they're all very close. As a pupil and student
9 since I attended the forestry technical school before the war and I'm very
10 familiar with these areas, especially the part of Ilidza, yes, Ilidza and
11 Mount Igman, which we actually -- or where we actually planted trees
12 during our studies when we would come to specific places, elevations the
13 professors would show us what could be seen and what was known about that
14 particular place.
15 Q. All right. And can you explain to the Judges now how you know who
16 was at those elevations during the conflict. How did you find that out?
17 A. Your Honours, well, it's just like I answered earlier. It's
18 logical. If I had relatives in the Vogosca municipality, that was holding
19 the lines in the Vogosca municipality in Sarajevo, then it was known, if
20 the length of the lines was 150 metres, who was up and who was down.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this map please
22 be tendered as a Defence exhibit.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, before we take a position on that,
24 I would suggest that you ask the witness to mark with letters some of the
25 circles that he has made, because otherwise it will be impossible for us
1 understand what the map means subsequently.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do that, Your Honour,
3 Judge Harhoff. I meant to do that, but I forgot.
4 Q. This place where you were born, can you please indicate the circle
5 that you made with the mark the circle with the letter K. And the place
6 where you went to school, can you mark that with a letter R?
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. One of the arrows, the one indicating to the right, can you place
9 the letter P there, and I'm going to say that in all of these directions
10 the witness had relatives that he visited frequently and he went to
11 this -- these areas as a -- as a pupil. So can you please indicate all of
12 these areas with the letter T.
13 A. [Marks].
14 Q. Can you also tell the Judges where you worked. Where was your job
15 located, if you can tell us that?
16 A. I didn't work before.
17 Q. You came from the army and when the war broke out you didn't have
18 a job?
19 A. Yes, that is correct. I wanted to tell all of that from the
20 beginning as a complete story but I kept being interrupted all the time
21 and that's why my testimony seems to have become quite complicated.
22 Q. Well, you had some health problems so we have to use the time that
23 we have left for more important things.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
25 exhibit, this map to be exhibited in this form, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As D280, Your Honours.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you please tell the Judges how many tanks your unit had at a
5 certain point?
6 A. When it was formed, my unit had five tanks.
7 Q. Thank you. And what happened when, in the summer of 1994, General
8 Dragomir Milosevic became the commanding officer of the Sarajevo-Romanija
9 Corps? What happened in the military sense?
10 A. When General Milosevic came to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as its
11 commander, the following things happened. Since he stopped the offensives
12 at Serb positions and established lines of defence, a truce came in late
13 1994 and early 1995, I think, which was absolutely respected from our
14 side. Perhaps there was some shooting from infantry weapons on the line,
15 but that is not important. While on the other side --
16 Q. You said June 1994 was the month that he came there. What
17 happened towards the end of 1994? Did something happened in late 1994, in
18 particular where you were?
19 A. Towards the end of 1994, I think in November, there was an attack
20 in the wider area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The attack was
21 thwarted, and lines of defence were established along the entire zone of
22 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
23 Q. Did you ever meet General Milosevic in person during the conflict?
24 A. During the conflict, I was wounded. I never met General Milosevic
25 at that time. However, I did get to meet him in 1995, in February I
1 believe, when he personally visited my unit.
2 Q. Where and how did you get wounded, and when?
3 A. I was wounded three times. The last time was one and a half
4 kilometres away from my house in 1994.
5 Q. After that activity in November which was stopped, what followed?
6 A. After that, I returned to my unit and was appointed deputy
7 commander of the tank, platoon commander. What followed was a lull, a
8 truce of sorts, which lasted until the beginning of summer in 1995. As an
9 experienced soldier by that time, I realised that the armed forces of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina headed by their commanders made use of that time in
11 order to prepare themselves for an all-out offensive in the area of the
12 Nisici plateau. Indeed, it took place.
13 Q. What was going on in that period, which, as you said, were
14 preparation times? Were you able to gather any information on that?
15 A. I know, for instance, that immediately before the offensive in
16 1995, in June, what became more frequent was artillery shelling on the
17 part of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As a soldier, it reminded me, or,
18 rather, I could read from it that what would follow was an eventual
19 offensive in the area of the Nisici plateau. We also received some
20 information which pointed to the fact that the army of Herzegovina was
21 preparing a large-scale and the strongest offensive as of yet against the
22 Serb positions in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija
24 Q. What followed in June? Can you tell us what things looked like in
25 your area?
1 A. I remember that it was early morning, between 4.00 and 5.00 a.m.,
2 although I don't know the exact date. In any case, I received a phone
3 call from the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Cacic, who informed
4 me that we should be in the state of readiness since there was to be an
5 attack against the positions of the army of Republika Srpska.
6 Q. What did that look like? Were you able to find out which AB and H
7 units were attacking you? As you said you had five tanks?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you able to notice anything as regards the enemy forces?
10 A. First we had one tank, then we had four. At that time, we knew
11 that they had more tanks than we did. I don't know how many exactly
13 Q. What lines do you have in mind? Where was the separation line in
14 your area and what did those separation lines there comprise?
15 A. In the area I'm referring to, which is the Nisici plateau, the
16 lines of separation -- well, the distance between the belligerent parties
17 was 800 metres at the minimum and in some places the maximum distance was
18 1300 metres. On average, the distance was some 1.000 or 1.200 metres.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I just want the witness to clarify
20 a bit where we are in time and where we are in space and where we are in
21 terms of weaponry. I think the witness said before that when his brigade
22 was established they had four tanks and now he said that at first they had
23 one tank, so that is one question that I would like the witness to
24 clarify. And, secondly, where exactly were those tanks deployed in June
1 Could you please clarify this?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to conclude with
3 that very topic.
4 Q. Witness, you said that at first in the beginning you had one tank?
5 A. Yes, that is correct. I also said that at the beginning, I was
6 with the Ilijas Brigade and they had that one tank. What followed was
7 that we received an additional four tanks.
8 Q. Thank you. After the exclusion zone was established you said that
9 you received some tanks from Ilijas and other parts of Sarajevo who were
10 in turn -- which were in turn brought to the exclusion zone?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And you also said they were 30 kilometres away from Sarajevo at
13 that point at the Nisici plateau?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Those tanks, were they ever moved from those positions, having in
16 mind the things that followed? Did they ever return the same way they
17 came from?
18 A. The tanks that were -- that comprised the tank platoon when it was
19 formed in 1994 were at the Nisici plateau. The tanks remained there until
20 the end of war. The exact location was Jelik, the base there. They were
21 not moved outside the immediate area of Nisici.
22 Q. Had it not been for the tanks and some other heavy weaponry which
23 had been pulled out, what would have happened in the offensive?
24 A. I apologise, however, have I have to go back in time in order for
25 me to tell you that before General Milosevic's arrival, we saw an
1 expansion or the taking over of parts of territory held by the army of
2 Republika Srpska. When he assumed command that trend was stopped. I'm
3 saying this to try and show that General Milosevic did two great things
4 for which I appreciate his work as a soldier.
5 First and foremost, he stopped the offensives of the army of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the pull-out of heavy weaponry beyond the
7 20-kilometre zone. What was achieved in that way was that any possibility
8 of taking over the road between the Nisici plateau, Ilijas and Vogosca was
10 Q. Can you draw that line on the map?
11 A. You mean the separation line?
12 Q. No, no. The direction of their operations by which they wanted to
13 cut off the portions of that road.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. This is by way of information for the Judges. I wanted to show
16 you another document, since you mentioned the offensive which began on the
17 15th. I wanted to ask you whether this document corresponds to what
18 happened that morning and the following days. It is DD00-3323.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what does all this evidence
20 indicate that is of benefit to your client?
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not asking the
22 witness about the casualties and the time, although he could tell us about
23 that. He is explaining a military situation which was to determine the
24 fate of both the troops and people in that area. He was at the Nisici
25 plateau where the offensive began. Had it had been successful because it
1 was carried out with the use of 150.000 troops, the road would have been
2 cut off, the road between Vogosca and Nisici, all the way up to Vogosca,
3 as well as the region in the north --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, how does it assist us in determining the
5 issue of the liability of the accused?
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to go back
7 yet again to something I've already discussed here.
8 I repeat that as General Milosevic's counsel, I believe that the
9 intensity of activity of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time or,
10 rather the position of the defence is that the activities of the SRK were
11 by way of a response against the activities of the army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina rather than being directed at civilians. Also, the
13 number of victims in the territory controlled by the SRK are a good
14 indication of the intensity of activities conducted by the army of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The intensity of fighting caused response on the part
16 of the SRK, which was unavoidable. They were necessary to defend
17 themselves rather than being a campaign directed at killing civilians and
18 causing civilian casualties. The intensity of fighting had to reflect or,
19 rather, impact the things that were taking place. It resulted based on
20 the activity of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the number of victims
21 is a good indication as to the intensity of combat.
22 These actions were forced, rather, the SRK was forced to act. If
23 we were to ask the witness how many casualties there were on the part of
24 the SRK and Serbian civilians we would come up with a specific figure.
25 However, what think is important for me to do is to show that the
1 intensity of combat operations on the part of the ABiH was such that needs
2 to be taken into account in the overall context. It had nothing to do
3 with the campaign --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you. So your contention, then,
5 is that the intensity of the fighting, negatives, contradicts the
6 Prosecution's theory of a campaign of shelling and sniping. It
7 contradicts the Prosecution's allegation of -- of terror, because you're
8 saying that the terror inhered in the -- and was an outcome from the -- or
9 of the intensity of the fighting.
10 Let me just ask Ms. Edgerton just on that particular matter
11 whether she has any submissions. This really is the -- is becoming now
12 the -- clear to us to be the essence of the Defence case, that the
13 intensity of the fighting necessarily prompted a response from the SRK and
14 that intensity of the fighting contradicts any -- any allegation of a
15 campaign and more particularly contradicts the allegation of terror
16 because the terror was a natural outcome of that intensity.
17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I -- just one or two sentences on
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, all right.
20 MR. WAESPI: Even if the SRK responded because they were provoked,
21 that doesn't allow them to respond indiscriminately at civilian targets.
22 That's the Prosecution case. It's not responding to legitimate waging of
23 war. It's responding indiscriminately by shelling civilian targets, by
24 not engaging military targets, by sniping civilian targets as we have
25 outlined in our schedules to the indictment. That is the Prosecution's
1 case. So even if you respond to an action within an hour, perhaps with
2 minutes, you have to respond to the source of fire and not to military
3 targets. That's the Prosecution's case.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And not to civilian targets.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we are understanding the case of both
7 parties and that's the purpose of the questioning.
8 Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic. Not on the topic. We have just
9 concluded the discussion on that topic. Proceed with the questioning of
10 the witness.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to
12 continue in this spirit and to prove the intensity of the fighting in that
13 location, I would like to show the witness two documents, DD00-3323.
14 Can we zoom in a little bit on the document, please.
15 MS. EDGERTON: There was no translation when I initially received
16 this a few days ago. Is there no translation now?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, is there any translation of this
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do actually have the document.
20 Well, maybe I won't show him this document then. I will show him the
21 other document. I'm sorry, I did -- I thought I had a translation but I
22 don't have a translation. So perhaps instead of this document we can
23 look at document DD00-28 --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, if you wish to look at it, we
25 can. It's very short. I mean, we do apply that practice.
1 MS. EDGERTON: I wasn't objecting. I was just asking about the
2 status of the translation.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to bother you with
5 that, but perhaps we can put a question about that document, so let us
6 look at first then DD00-3323.
7 Q. Witness, then you will have to read it slowly and carefully so
8 that the interpreters could translate it. You can read the heading. And
9 can I please ask you to read the entire first paragraph.
10 A. "Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, command of the 4th
11 Battalion of the 105th Mountain Brigade, strictly confidential number
12 105/4-1157 Ravanjsko Polje, 15th of June, 1995. Interim combat report.
13 Section 1 to 25, Vares 2-4 and 4-4. Based on previously issued orders at
14 0600 hours on the 15th of June, 1995, offensive actions were launched in
15 three given -- along three given axes."
16 I think that it says "our main axis."
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can
18 place the document on the ELMO. It is better -- it's a better copy. It
19 says "our tank."
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be placed on the ELMO.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Our tank and mortars fired about 10
22 tank and several mortar shells at enemy targets for purposes of
23 preparation for an infantry breakthrough. The enemy responded or returned
24 fire from Howitzers and mortars at our tank at Stuparovac and along the
25 left wing in the section of the area of responsibility of the 2nd
2 Q. Thank you. Can you see that Stuparovo is mentioned here and you
3 heard about this action and you already said something about combat over
4 those few days. What do you know about that?
5 A. This proves what I said earlier, that Armed Forces of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina were actively preparing attacks at positions of the army of
7 Republika Srpska, which is supported by this document.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this
10 document as a Defence exhibit.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Ms. Edgerton is on her feet.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, because I wasn't objecting
13 earlier doesn't mean I am not objecting now on different grounds. I see
14 absolutely no connection in this document to anything to do with Nisici
15 plateau which, in fact in and of itself, the witness has already testified
16 is some 30 kilometres outside of Sarajevo, so my objection is then on two
17 grounds, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Being what? Relevance and?
19 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, relevance for two different reasons, Your
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all of this is the
23 area of responsibility of the SRK. This action along with this other
24 document, this action at Stuparovo, so this action and the document that I
25 will show indicates the axis of attack of the army of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina precisely with the targets that they had in mind which the
2 army of Republika Srpska had to protect and to which they responded in an
3 adequate way. I believe that this document shows a specific situation
4 whereby there had to be an appropriate military action in response to tank
5 fire. On the day the offensive began, well, this document convincingly
6 proves what happened on the 15th of June along all the lines of the front
7 within the area of responsibility of the SRK. I already mentioned before
8 a paragraph from the -- I'm going to repeat it --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Given that it is 30 miles -- 30 kilometres from
10 Sarajevo you would still maintain that it is relevant?
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if that line had
12 been cut, 30 kilometres is a lot and it's not that much. The road within
13 the area of responsibility of the SRK would have been cut. All the lines
14 of the communication would have been severed and it would all have been
15 finished in such a conflict which actually began then. Yes, it was 30
16 kilometres from Sarajevo but at that time it was all interconnected
17 because at that point in time there was action along all the lines of the
18 front, including from tanks which were the heaviest of weapons and this
19 can be seen from this document. Last time I mentioned paragraph 53 of the
20 adjudicated facts. I'm not going to repeat --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what's the significance of
24 adjudicated fact paragraph -- well, 53, number 53. You call it paragraph,
25 but I think it's number 53. I have it here.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, number 53 of the
2 adjudicated facts and that's one of the facts that we did not dispute. In
3 1993, about 75.000 soldiers of the 1st corps of the army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina were deployed along the lines of separations around
5 Sarajevo. Approximately a half were in the town itself, while the other
6 half was at the lines of separations outside the town, precisely at the
7 lines that he was talking about and where this fighting was conducted.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But this adjudicated fact relates to 1993. Your
9 document is relating to, if I'm not mistaken, 1995.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but we showed that then
11 there was 75.000 soldiers but in this action, through the document that we
12 tendered, there were 150.000 soldiers in 1993, there was 75.000 soldiers
13 along the lines of separation, but in this offensive that began on the
14 15th of June, there were over 150.000 because other corps also took part
15 besides the 1st corps and we can see that from the documents that I'm
16 going to show. So not 75.000 as it was in 1993, but in 1995 there were
17 over 150.000 soldiers of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. More thus.
18 This was like this throughout the time of the war. There were lines
19 outside and inside and it's a question who encircled whom.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So outside the city would embrace an area that is
21 some 30 kilometres away from Sarajevo. Would it?
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from the centre of
23 Sarajevo. These would be the lines of separation. Ilijas was completely
24 encircled by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Nisici further up were
25 also completely surrounded. These were the lines of separations, 220
1 kilometres, so this is the indisputed sentence in the adjudicated facts.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: My brother is asking, where is the number 150
4 that you just referred to? It doesn't appear in the document apparently.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not here Your Honours. But
6 we already tendered an exhibit earlier, orders from which it can be seen
7 that the offensive began at all the lines of separation with the
8 participation of other corps too. So that the total number can be seen
9 from the documents that we already tendered through other witnesses. And
10 also, there was something that was seen during the presentation of the
11 Prosecution's case. From this document it can be seen that there was
12 active direct fighting between tanks and other weapons at that location.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
14 The Chamber by majority, Judge Harhoff dissenting, will admit the
16 It's time for the break. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.
17 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, how much more time would you
20 needing for examination-in-chief, because you're actually at the end of
21 the time allotted to you.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, I
23 have that in mind. I have one additional document, and I will close with
25 Your Honours, the previous document was tendered but was not given
1 a number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that document will be D281.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is DD00-2840.
4 And we have a translation too.
5 Q. Witness, please look at the heading, read out the date, and tell
6 us what it is, who was ordered to do what; and the second paragraph of the
8 A. "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, BH army 1st corps command.
9 IKM, Igman. Military secret, strictly confidential. Strictly
10 confidential number 01/1-222."
11 Should I repeat?
12 Q. Please go on.
13 A. "Igman, 15 June 1995, time 1400 hours. Report: To the command of
14 the 12th, 14th, and 6th Division. All units. To the command of the
15 141st, 145th, and 146th Light Brigades."
16 Q. The second paragraph, please.
17 A. "The forces of the 3rd Corps with our 126th Light Brigade and the
18 134th Mountain Brigade/16th Division, liberated on their axis of attack
19 the whole feature of Ravni Nabozic and Lipa as well as elevation 701,
20 placing the Srednje-Semizovac road and the Semizovac intersection under
21 their full control."
22 Q. Thank you. My question is this: We see that some of the units of
23 the 1st Corps acted in unison with units of another corps, according to
24 the second paragraph, that is?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What happened then? What was that road? We mentioned something
2 about that in the previous document as well.
3 A. It is the road that I mentioned on several occasions. It goes
4 through Semizovac, the Nisici plateau, Srednje onwards to Sarajevo and
5 Vogosca municipality.
6 Q. Thank you. And as we can see here, it says they put the entire
7 road under their full control; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. That day, the road was temporarily cut off. Our troops of
9 the Republika Srpska as well as some of our sabotage units managed to
10 regain the positions lost during the day.
11 Q. Thank you. During that offensive of the army of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina which began on the 15th of June, how long did it last,
13 approximately? Not only that action, but the entire offensive.
14 A. I think that intensive attacks lasted until the end of that
15 month. I cannot recall exactly.
16 Q. Tell me this: In the events in November 1994 but also during the
17 combat in June, were there any casualties among the troops and civilians?
18 A. There were a number of victims, especially during the offensive in
19 this area. There were many soldiers killed. I don't know the exact
20 number, but with a degree of certainty I can tell you there were more than
22 As for civilian casualties, a bit earlier, before that, there was
23 a mother and a daughter who had been killed by a Howitzer. It was on the
24 13th of June, 1994.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I would like to have the witness
3 clarify which areas this document relate to, because I'm not completely
4 familiar with the places and the names that are mentioned in the
5 documents. The Ravni Naboznic and Lipa. So could you please ask the
6 witness to clarify where these areas were that are mentioned in the
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, I will
9 do so, since I seem to have forgotten. I wanted to ask that question too.
10 Q. Can you show on the map where the forces of the army of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina were? Perhaps you can take the pointer. You'll have
12 to have your headphones on.
13 Can you show where Srednje as well as the Semizovac intersection
15 A. Semizovac, this is the Semizovac intersection, Vogosca.
16 Q. So they almost went as far as Vogosca?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And they could have easily reached Vogosca cutting of any
19 possibility of communication?
20 A. That was exactly the arrow that I had drawn on the map. The axis
21 of the main attack. It was a bottle neck by which they tried to interrupt
22 the road between Semizovac, Ilijas and the Nisici plateau.
23 Q. Thank you. There was combat in settlements?
24 A. Yes. Through settlements trying to reach the road to Semizovac
25 which would make it easier for them to take over other areas as well.
1 Q. Had the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina been able to reach Nisici, what
2 would have happened with the Ilijas, Nisici, Hadzici --
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MS. EDGERTON: At this point in time I would think my friend is
6 asking the witness to do nothing more than speculate, especially given
7 that the witness has said he was commander or deputy commander of the tank
8 platoon in Nisici far to the north of that and hasn't said anything about
9 where he was at the time in question.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, inquire from the witness
11 where he was at that time. Let us see whether he has a basis for this
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, how do you know this? Is this your personal knowledge?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And where were the -- rather, let me put my
17 question in a different way. Were the other areas that are mentioned in
18 the documents, such as, for instance, the Dobranjsko Brdo, were they also
19 located in that area just north of Sarajevo that the witness has shown?
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, it's
21 another location of the 7th Corps. I didn't ask him about that. But he
22 might have some indirect knowledge of that. These are the forces of the
23 7th corps and the 1st corps who were active at Jelasje and Dobranjsko
24 Brdo. However in this location, it was the 3rd corps together with the
25 1st corps. The witness doesn't know much about the 7th Corps, which
1 worked jointly with the 1st Corps at Dobranjsko Brdo. However, this is
2 what he knows from his personal knowledge. On another location there was
3 the 7th corps and the 1st corps and there were no 75.000 troops but,
4 rather, twice as much.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, you are bringing this document to
6 the witness, and I expect that you will also wish to see this document
7 tendered into evidence. So if you want the Chamber to benefit from this
8 document, then at least you should try and elicit from the witness which
9 areas the document is really talking about or discussing.
10 Now, I see two options and I just want the witness to say whether
11 it's one or the other. Either the document deals with a number of
12 locations which all of them are placed just in the vicinity north of
13 Sarajevo; or the document deals with locations which are scattered all
14 around Sarajevo. And that's my interest to find out, what does this
15 document really address.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, when I
17 showed him this document, he said that he knew personally about the
18 conflict in this area, where the 3rd corps were together with the 1st
19 corps. I did ask him about whether he knows something -- well, first
20 maybe can he go back to his seat and then I might ask him about any other
21 knowledge that he possibly has.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I mean, keep it simple. Let me ask the witness
24 Are you familiar with the other locations mentioned in the
25 document, Mr. Witness? The Dobranjsko Brdo, the Zmijanice.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to know.
3 And please, Mr. Witness, you can sit down again.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because I have one more question to you in
6 relation to this document.
7 And my question is about your comment a while ago that you felt
8 that the -- that your brigade was encircled by the army of the Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina. Is that correct? Do you remember that you told us that it
10 was your impression that the SRK or at least the brigade in which you were
11 stationed felt that it was encircled by the ABiH?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Directly, when you look at the map
13 and based on what I said, I couldn't have said that we were directly
14 encircled but by cutting the road to which that refers to, we were --
15 well, the fighters were isolated as well as the civilian population and
16 everything else. They would have been isolated had this happened. This
17 is what I meant to say. But you can see that the Ilijas Brigade would
18 have been completely cut off and would have been cut off from the free
19 territory in the centre that was controlled by the army of Republika
20 Srpska. And if we look at the map, then we can see that this is really
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I fully agree and I would interpret what we see in
23 the same way.
24 Now, my question is: What then do you make of the remark by
25 General Karavelic in the first paragraph in which the general seems to
1 suggest that he feels that the ABiH is encircled? I'm referring to the
2 words in the first paragraph in which he says that the joint forces of the
3 BH army achieved the following successes in the operation to break the
4 siege of Sarajevo. That seems to suggest that at least General Karavelic
5 was of opinion that it was the ABiH who was encircled by the SRK and that
6 Sarajevo was under siege. Is that your impression? Do you share General
7 Karavelic's observation?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will just briefly say that I do
9 not agree with that.
10 When we look at the map, we see the breadth and the depth of the
11 territory and everything around and what Mr. Karavelic said is not true.
12 And that practically Ilijas is the only place that is practically in the
13 encirclement and not the forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the city of Sarajevo, were they under siege?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Earlier, when I was speaking and
16 when I mentioned the municipalities that comprised the city of Sarajevo, I
17 mentioned the municipality of Ilidza, Hadzici, and especially the
18 municipality of Vogosca where I was -- well, my house in 1994 in the
19 offensive but last came under the control of the army of Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina, so I fled to Vogosca. So if we looked -- I didn't mention
21 the elevations above Vogosca, purely by accident. So it's not just
22 Sarajevo. It's not that just the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
23 inside with Serbs around or the army of Republika Srpska. It wasn't like
24 that, actually.
25 If we take an elevation, for example if we go back to Zuc, that is
1 a dominant elevation at -- in a specific territory where the lines of
2 separation are about 100, 200 to 500 metres apart but the dominant
3 elevation, I don't know its height, was held by the army of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina. And I state that with full responsibility, that it was
5 really like that. My entire testimony is mostly focused on where I was,
6 and that is the municipality of Vogosca, the Nisici plateau. But then we
7 have Vogosca-Semizovac intersection, Srediste [phoen] and the Nisici
8 plateau, that was the main communication for the population and the army
9 of Republika Srpska.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have
12 questions, but I would like to have this document, DD00-2840, tendered as
13 a Defence exhibit.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, the translation that's in e-court in
16 any case is incomplete and I wonder if it could be marked for
17 identification until such time as it is completed.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What indicates its incompleteness?
19 MS. EDGERTON: There appear to be two paragraphs missing from the
20 English version.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's on the next page.
22 MS. EDGERTON: We don't have the next page in e-court, do we? I
23 still don't see those two paragraphs and General Karavelic's signature.
24 It may just be an e-court issue, then if Your Honours have a translation
25 and a hard copy. Now we have it. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Okay. We admit it. Judge Mindua has a
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, just a question
4 you know for clarification. I didn't want to interrupt you when you were
5 dealing with the subject, but if you go to the transcript, page 17, line
6 18, 19, all the way to line 22, it seems that before General Milosevic
7 took command, if I understood you right, and correct me if I'm wrong, the
8 territory controlled by the army of Republika Srpska was increasing, and
9 when General Milosevic took command he withdrew heavy weapons and, at the
10 same time, he also stopped the offensives conducted by the ABiH. You are
11 recognising him as a very good military man. But I don't really
12 understand the logic behind this. He has got no weapons and he can still
13 stop offensives. Whereas before him, there were heavy weapons and the
14 territory was increasing.
15 So could you tell us exactly how this could be possible?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that you
17 misunderstood me.
18 When General Dragomir Milosevic took the post, strong offensives
19 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were stopped, and up until he
20 arrived the army of Republika Srpska was losing territories, before the
21 arrival of General Milosevic.
22 When General Milosevic came, he stopped those offensives, formed
23 lines, and there was no further loss of territory, nor was any territory
24 captured. The lost territories were not recaptured. We didn't understand
25 each other. Perhaps you didn't follow me completely. There were no
1 conquests, but the road was retaken. That was something that had to be
2 done in order for the population and the soldiers to be able to continue
3 to live. But the original positions, what was retaken were the original
4 positions of the army of Republika Srpska, and I hope that this is now
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, fine. Thank you.
7 So the fact that ABiH offensives stopped results from the military
8 strategy and the military value of General Milosevic and not the use of
9 special weapons, right? Because, according to you, heavy weapons had been
10 withdrawn, so how did he manage to stop the offensive? Did you tell us
11 how come the offensives suddenly started and the lines were now frozen?
12 Were there special weapons or was it a very clever strategy? How did he
13 manage to stabilize the positions? I mean you were a soldier and you can
14 probably tell us what happened or maybe you understood what happened.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lines were stabilized, well,
16 first if you're losing a part of the territory, the line is shortened and
17 simply then we would have more soldiers available, taking into account
18 those wounded and killed and so on and so forth. That is one fact.
19 The other fact is that new weapons came -- well, not new weapons
20 but existing weapons such as Howitzers, mortars, tanks that I talked
21 about, cannon, and that was deployed in the section where the attacks were
22 expected, and I believe that there is nothing illogical there. I don't
23 know anything about any particular or special types of weapons. I don't
24 know what you're referring to there.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you very much.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My assistant tells me that the
2 previous document that we tendered has not yet been given a number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document, document ID number
4 DD00-2840 will be admitted as D282.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, now, in relation to the question by His Honour Judge
7 Mindua, you said that at the time when the heavy weapons were pulled out
8 of the 20-kilometre exclusion zone the weapons, the tanks, the rest of the
9 weaponry was transformed to the Nisici plateau outside of this area, far
10 from this area; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That weapon -- those weapons made it possible to set this up?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were just giving evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic,
17 when you said to the witness "Those weapons made it possible to set this
18 up." You didn't allow the witness to proffer that evidence. But never
20 Ms. Edgerton.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic. You look as though you're feeling
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions based on what you've said in
2 testimony today, but very briefly, so you should be on your way home
3 fairly soon, I would think, because you have had a long stay in The
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. Judge Harhoff asked you a very specific question with respect to
7 conditions within the city of Sarajevo and you answered him in detail.
8 Just -- I'd just like to follow up on that and ask you: At any time during
9 the war -- now let me rephrase that.
10 You actually have no idea from your personal experience of what
11 civilians inside the Bosnian-held territory of Metropolitan Sarajevo, the
12 city centre lived through throughout the war, do you?
13 A. I really don't know. Perhaps we didn't understand each other.
14 What part of Sarajevo are you thinking of? I sincerely and honestly told
15 you about those parts that I really know about. I told you about
16 civilians in Vogosca, the population in the municipality of Vogosca.
17 That's where my father lived as well as my mother. This is it what I'm
18 talking about.
19 As for the other municipalities that are part of Sarajevo, I think
20 that they lived in a similar or identical way. Doesn't matter if they
21 were in a different municipality or not. I think life there was similar
22 as -- as the one in Vogosca, not similar, but identical.
23 Q. So if I said to you that from 1992 to 1995, civilians who lived
24 inside Bosnian-held territory in the metropolitan area of Sarajevo were
25 shot at frequently, would you agree with me?
1 A. These are your facts. I really don't know about things like
2 that. I really cannot say anything about it other than that I never heard
3 that any soldier or anyone shot at civilians. I really never heard of
5 Q. That wasn't quite my question actually. So let me go back to
6 that. Would you agree with me that civilians within the metropolitan area
7 of Bosnian-held Sarajevo were shot at over the course of the war?
8 A. There was shooting all over during the war. It was war. And you
9 yourself said in the course of war, over the course of the war. And you
10 probably have a different view of it than a soldier would. I mean, of
11 course it was normal that there was one side and the other side of the
12 conflict. We really cannot accept the fact that Serbs only -- it was only
13 the Serbs who fired at Muslims or that Muslims only fired at Serbs. As I
14 like to say, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired at Serbs and the army of
15 Republika Srpska fired at Muslims. I mean, it was war. There was
16 shooting. As to what extent and who happened to be aware, this is a very
17 delicate and difficult question.
18 Q. And actually, with respect, Mr. Djukic, wasn't so difficult and I
19 didn't ask anything about who fired at who. I simply asked whether you
20 would agree that civilians in Bosnian-held territory, in Metropolitan
21 Sarajevo were shot at frequently throughout the war. Would you agree with
23 A. No, no. I would not agree with that.
24 Q. Would you agree that civilians in Bosnian-held Metropolitan
25 Sarajevo were frequently killed and injured by shelling and sniping, from
1 1992 to 1995? And remember, Mr. Djukic, I'm not asking who shot who.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, are you asking him on the basis of
3 personal knowledge or of information that he might have acquired?
4 MS. EDGERTON: I can make it even more specific and ask on both
5 grounds, Your Honour. That might clarify things for him.
6 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you have any personal knowledge, and I mean -- by
7 personal knowledge, I mean did you ever see with your own eyes or did you
8 ever hear with your own ears about any civilians in Sarajevo, the
9 metropolitan Bosnian-held territory of Sarajevo getting killed or injured
10 by shelling or sniping from 1992 to 1995. So it is with your own eyes and
11 your own ears.
12 A. I truly never saw or noticed anyone doing that, in view of the
13 fact that my area of responsibility was further away. You're talking
14 about the actual -- just one part of that town, and I didn't hear anything
15 in particular about that, about sniper activities. I didn't hear really
16 anything. But as for possible shelling, that some people were wounded by
17 shells, that, I think, if there was shelling, and they happened to be
18 somewhere, and then if they were -- I don't know. It's very hard, the way
19 you put it. So it's not clear to me how because these were lines that
20 were in close proximity. I don't know who could have fired what at whom.
21 It's very, very strange.
22 Q. So you never saw or never heard anything but you gave a lot of
23 evidence today about everything from hilltops to the placement of weapons
24 and the location of confrontation lines which you yourself said was based
25 on common knowledge, effectively.
1 So perhaps I can ask you this: Did you ever hear in the media or
2 from any other person or in any documents you might have received through
3 your military command or from any off your colleagues or from any of your
4 family who lived in areas around Sarajevo, that people who lived in
5 Bosnian-held Sarajevo were regularly shelled and sniped at?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. Did you ever see reports of it in the media, even in Crna?
8 A. In the field where I was, we were frequently without electricity,
9 but I watched reports from the media that things like that happened. But
10 even that, to a limited extent. As for me seeing or noticing personally,
11 I really did not.
12 Q. So you just said you watched reports from the media that things
13 like that happened in answer to my question. So that sounds like you saw
14 media reports to the effect that people who lived in
15 metropolitan-encircled Sarajevo were shot and shelled. Is that true?
16 A. Well, for that you can take two answers. You can say that there
17 was something like that on the part of the army of Republika Srpska, and
18 to tell you truthfully if there were provocations from the army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the lines and places where the Serb population lived
20 or that they were provocations via fire-arms, well, that's -- then I would
21 say that as a soldier, there was a return fire once fire was received.
22 Q. But, Mr. Djukic, I didn't ask you about provocations at all.
23 Every single time I have asked you a question, I've asked you about
24 civilians were in encircled Metropolitan Sarajevo. Did you hear of it, or
25 see it, or learn of it, either through your own personal knowledge --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand a
3 question being put once or twice, but to put the same question several
4 times over, I don't think that that is proper. I'm sitting here and
5 listening. I don't think that I ever repeated a question. I think at
6 least that I did not repeat the one and the same question once. Now this
7 is the third or fourth time that the same question is being put. He said
8 that he didn't see anything with his own eyes and then -- then he moved to
9 the media and then he gave two answers for that. And I think that it
10 would be improper to continue in this vain.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I agree. The witness has already
12 given an answer to the question.
13 Please move on.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Djukic, perhaps I can ask you one further question. The
16 offensive of the summer of 1995 that you also spent a lot of time talking
17 about in some measure of detail was actually effectively crushed by VRS
18 and SRK forces, wasn't it?
19 A. If I understood you correctly, it was crushed by the army of
20 Republika Srpska or by the army of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I don't
21 know what you mean when you say pushed back or reduced. I didn't say
22 that. I think the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, headed by General Milosevic,
23 thwarted attacks, stopped them, and preserved the existing lines of the
24 army of Republika Srpska, and I really tried to speak slowly and to be
25 clear first to me and then --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, Counsel, as I understand is going
2 further than that. She's saying that the offensive in the summer of 1995
3 that you testified about was crushed, crushed - it's a very strong word -
4 I don't know how it is reflected in your language, but that offensive was
5 crushed by the VRS and the SRK forces. Do you agree with that. It's not
6 just a matter of General Milosevic thwarting attacks and stopping them but
7 that the offensive was crushed by the VRS and the SRK forces.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I fail to understand. I've
9 given an answer. For me, to crush something would mean that the side who
10 managed to crush the enemy would advance further and deeper in the
11 territory of the opposing side, which is not what happened.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. And it was defeated without panic, with no problem. Isn't that
15 the case?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know
18 whether this was interpreted correctly, but it was said in B/C/S that
19 there were defeated without any panic. It not clear in the least that
20 they were defeated without panic. If interpreted in B/C/S properly, then,
21 well, it makes it difficult to understand in my language.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you understand the question, witness? Counsel
23 is putting to you that --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the offensive was defeated and that there was
1 not any panic accompanying that defeat.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I respond?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm putting the question to you, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you were able to
5 observe, I smiled the first time I heard the question. We mentioned the
6 fact that 150.000 soldiers attacked the area of responsibility of the
7 SRK. We also mentioned the fact that the lines were almost broken around
8 Ilijas municipality. And now we get this question which reminds me of a
9 soccer game. I think I'm clear.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Just one point, Your Honour. The 150.000 number,
11 and I've checked previously the transcript, from this witness's testimony
12 never before came from the witness's mouth. It came from Mr. Tapuskovic's
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic told us that testimony given
15 earlier was to that effect.
16 Did you say that, Mr. Tapuskovic? Because counsel is saying that
17 this resulted from -- simply from what you said, not from testimony.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is true. I said that it was
19 based on a plethora of documents and evidence we've heard. I mentioned a
20 figure when communicating with the Bench, when discussing the figure of 53
21 or rather the adjudicated fact number 53. Then I said that it stems from
22 other documents as it does from this latest document that was tendered
23 showing that the 3rd and the 1st Corps cooperated along the line where
24 this person was. The witness did not say that.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I know the witness did not say that, but did
1 any other witness prior to this witness say that, or was it simply a
2 conclusion that you are drawing?
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, I can
4 show you the documents introduced through other witnesses although I don't
5 have it here immediately.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I would require you to do that; otherwise,
7 this -- this would be -- I would consider this a very serious matter, if
8 you suggested that evidence had been given and it turned out not to be the
9 case but simply an assertion that you are making. So would you later
10 today point to that evidence for me. And if you can, then Ms. Edgerton
11 will owe you an apology.
12 Ms. Edgerton, yes.
13 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is very
15 difficult for me to do that today, but I will do it as soon as I can. It
16 is a number of documents that I have to assemble and present to you, but I
17 will do it as quickly as possible.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, because I -- I take it to be a person of
19 integrity, Mr. Tapuskovic and that you would not mislead the Court.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And just so there's no misleading on the part of
21 what I said, I was making that point with respect to the testimony before
22 Your Honours today. Today. That had not -- those figures had not come
23 from this witness's mouth. There had been no testimony that --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well in that case, I agree with that. But
25 Mr. Tapuskovic never sought to say that this witness had given testimony
1 to the 150.000 number. I think what I understood him to be saying is that
2 testimony given previously confirms that figure, not testimony from this
4 MS. EDGERTON: No. It was merely something that was adopted by
5 the witness now and that's the point I was making, Your Honours.
6 Q. Mr. Djukic, to finish up, and going back to your answers with
7 regard to the June offensive, would it surprise you to learn that your
8 general, General Milosevic, actually wrote to General Mladic and in that
9 correspondence to General Mladic actually said this offensive that you've
10 testified about in great detail today was stopped and crushed without any
11 panic in 1995?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: In those words, Ms. Edgerton?
13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. And for the record, I can refer
14 everyone to P738 in the English translation page 2, second paragraph --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us hear the answer --
16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- of the witness first. Let us hear the
18 witness's answer first.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I understood it very
20 well. Could you please repeat it.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. You've talked about the seriousness of this offensive by the
23 Bosnian forces, the size of the attack an its consequences on your side,
24 in terms of both civilian and military effects. But what I'm putting to
25 you now is actually your general reported to Ratko Mladic saying this
1 two-month large-scale enemy offensive was stopped and crushed without any
2 panic in 1995. Does that surprise you?
3 A. I am not particularly surprised. Perhaps I can explain. If an
4 offensive is stopped or thwarted, if further advancement was prevented by
5 the army of Republika Srpska in the Serb territory, and if vital roads are
6 preserved, then it doesn't surprise me. I was a front-line soldier. As
7 to what lingo they used in their office, that's a different thing. I hope
8 you understand my answer.
9 Q. So you would agree, then, with your general's report to the
10 commander-in-chief, to the effect that the Bosnian offensive was stopped
11 and crushed without panic?
12 A. Without panic ... yes. Unlike the previous offensives, when
13 people left their homes and when there was destruction of property and
14 when the entire population, the able-bodied ones and the other ones were
15 trying to save their lives, judging the amount of panic among the soldiers
16 and citizens, well, then, I guess that's what they had in mind, and I
17 think it is justified when you see civilian population advancing or
18 fleeing before the opposing parties' army.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we did not understand the
20 end of the witness's answer. Perhaps he could repeat.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, would you just repeat the end of your
22 answer, because the interpreter didn't quite understand it. Just the end
23 of your answer, I think perhaps beginning "and I think it is justified,"
24 et cetera.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that there no panic
1 or that was alleviated because there was no population there that would
2 flee the advancing army. That's what I had in mind. There were no
3 movements of population. Instead, lines were formed, manned exclusively
4 by soldiers in trenches and there in the territory. Therefore, we were
5 prepared to face the offensive and we managed to thwart it.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for just a brief moment, Your
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Just one last question perhaps to finish things off.
13 So, Mr. Djukic, the way I understand your testimony now, having
14 clarified matters, when you've said previously that you would not agree
15 that Sarajevo was under siege, the basis of your knowledge is actually
16 nothing, isn't it? Because you have no personal knowledge of civilians in
17 the city centre being shelled or sniped and you heard nothing from the
18 media. Your disagreement or your assertion that Sarajevo was not under
19 siege is your opinion purely. It's your opinion, isn't it?
20 A. I don't know what time it is that you're asking me the same
21 question, and I thought we were done with it. I think I gave a
22 sufficiently clear answer. I lived with my family in a part of Sarajevo.
23 We were refugees.
24 MS. EDGERTON: I think those are all the questions that I have,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
2 Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one question only.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djukic, you said when answering one of
6 Prosecutor's questions that you did not see anything yourself concerning
7 the plight of civilians in the part of Sarajevo that was under control of
8 the ABiH. I'm asking you this: You said where you were at the time.
9 Were you able to see anything concerning the plight of civilians in
10 Sarajevo that was in the part of Sarajevo that was controlled by the army
11 of Republika Srpska? Were you able to observe any of that in Grbavica,
13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: That doesn't arise from cross-examination, I
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, we don't agree with you. We think
19 it does arise.
20 Answer the question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I would kindly ask for
22 the question to be repeated.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You said you were unable to see and that you don't know anything
25 about the things taking place in the part of the city that was under the
1 control of the ABiH. What I'm asking you is this: One part of the city
2 was under the control of the army of Republika Srpska. Do you have any
3 knowledge of that? Did you see anything?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djukic, that concludes your evidence. We
7 thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you as well.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll turn over my chair
11 to Mr. Sachdeva and take my leave, with your permission.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, next witness.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The next
16 witness is T-34, Milan Mandic.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: MILAN MANDIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
24 You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you tell us your first and last
3 name, or, rather, tell it to the Judges?
4 A. My name is Milan Mandic.
5 Q. Just a moment, please. Even with the shortest of questions,
6 please observe the screen in front of you. Only after the transcript has
7 stopped, then answer.
8 And the following questions can be answered by saying yes or no.
9 You were born on the 11th of September, 1954?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In Kalinovik in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You used to live in Sarajevo in Nedzarici in your family home from
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You completed your elementary and secondary education for a road
17 transport technician in Sarajevo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Your civic duty, that is the term with the JNA, was served in
20 1974, and you were a private?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When the conflict broke out, you were employed with the PTT
23 engineering in Nedzarici?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell the Judges something about early 1992. Who did you
1 work for then?
2 A. In March 1992, I was employed by UNPROFOR or the forces of the
3 European union.
4 Q. When did you begin working for UNPROFOR and what did you do
5 exactly as early as 1992?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just a small clarification, because
8 UNPROFOR and the forces of the European Union are different organisations,
9 in my submission, so perhaps the witness can clarify which organisation he
10 worked for.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Which one did you work for, the UNPROFOR or
12 the European Union?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked for UNPROFOR. They wore
14 blue helmets with the UN logo.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. What did you do for them?
17 A. I worked as -- as a car electrician.
18 Q. What were your tasks?
19 A. Fixing the vehicles of UNPROFOR.
20 Q. How long did you stay at that -- in that position?
21 A. I worked with them until the 6th of May, 1992.
22 Q. Please explain. When did you begin and when did you stop working
23 for them, and why?
24 A. Upon UNPROFOR's arrival to my company, I worked there as of day
25 one until the 6th of May, when I was wounded returning home from work.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, could you please
2 ask the witness with which passport he was working within UNPROFOR? What
3 was his nationality and was he wearing a uniform? I did not quite
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour Judge
7 Q. You need to explain this to the Judges, Witness. Explain where
8 you were employed and how did it come about that you began to work for
9 UNPROFOR? What was your work organisation and how did you end up working
10 for UNPROFOR?
11 A. I worked in the PTT engineering from 1980 as an auto electrician.
12 When the UNPROFOR came, they elected PTT engineering as the institution to
13 be most suitable for their headquarters because we had satellite
14 communications, telephone communications, and I signed a contract with
15 UNPROFOR. I didn't need a passport, because I was born in Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina. And since you put the question, I am of Serb ethnicity.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] No. I understood. I asked the
18 question, because he said you worked for UNPROFOR and he also said that he
19 had been wounded, so we could have thought that he was a military for
20 UNPROFOR. Maybe he was a military electrician or something; hence, my
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Can you please then explain to the Judges how it came about that
24 you were wounded? How did that happen? I don't want to suggest anything,
25 but can you please explain how this happened?
1 A. When I was returning from work, from PTT engineering, meaning I
2 spent that day on my work duties at UNPROFOR, on my return from work, I
3 was wounded in the Lukavica street, perhaps 200 metres from my house, from
4 the direction of the Srakino Selo. I was walking like a civilian.
5 Q. And what happened then and where were you then for an amount of
6 time after that?
7 A. I was taken to the hospital, actually first to the barracks. They
8 gave me first aid and then they transferred me to the hospital where I was
9 until the 27th of May, 1992, receiving medical treatment.
10 Q. What did you find out while you were at the hospital?
11 A. I found out that my 65-year-old mother had been taken to a camp,
12 that my father disappeared, that my wife and two children, aged 7 and 5,
13 fled from there and that the house was set on fire, both my house and my
14 father's house.
15 Q. And where was your house till then?
16 A. It was in the Lukavicka 107 street at the base of Mojmilo hill.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we have to take the break now.
18 Before we break, I should make a clarification about the schedule
19 for the rest of the week. Tomorrow's hearing will commence at 9.00 a.m.;
20 Thursday's hearing will commence at 2.15; and Friday from 8.00 until
22 We'll break for 20 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just with respect to the last -- the
2 last issue that my learned friend has broached with the witness, I am
3 minded to object on the relevance of the evidence, but also it would be --
4 I suggest that counsel should establish the basis for the witness's
5 knowledge, or, in other words how did he find out that these things took
6 place. As it stands now, the witness was in hospital and the evidence is
7 that he found out certain things. I realise I could ask him in
8 cross-examination, but perhaps it's better to be done now, in my
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you look at the matters that he found out, I
11 mean, why would you be questioning the basis of that knowledge? Are you
12 talking about the matters relating to his family?
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, and I'm just asking just basically to
14 establish how he found out while in hospital.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I don't see any need for that,
16 quite frankly.
17 Yes, proceed.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 I also think that he needs to tell you how he found out.
20 Q. Sir, you were at the hospital. How did you find out first about
21 your mother and then about your father? Can you please tell us how you
22 learned about that?
23 A. At that time the PTT lines were still functioning and I found out
24 from my family. I had a lot of relatives in Nedzarici. I found out that
25 this happened to my parents.
1 Q. Did you talk to anyone on the phone?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Well, explain that.
4 A. On the 27th of May, when I left the hospital, I called my uncle,
5 the late Aleksa Tomanovic now, and I asked him if my parents were alive,
6 if he knew anything about them, and he replied that people saw from the
7 Skrkare house that my mother was taken away in the direction of Dobrinja
8 V. They were not sure about my father, and then in a second conversation
9 with him, I found out that my father was allowed to go to Lukavicka Cesta
10 to cross the 10th transversal and to get to Lukavica but that he didn't
11 get there and that he was most probably killed when he was about to enter
12 the Lukavicka Cesta street or road.
13 Q. Did you ever hear anything about your father?
14 A. No, not to this very day. I never found the remains of my
15 father's body.
16 Q. And can you please tell us if you ever returned to Nedzarici ever
17 again after the 27th of May?
18 A. Once you learned that my wife had left our house, that my parents
19 had the fate that they did and that the house was set on fire, there was
20 no need for me to go back to Nedzarici. And the first time that I went
21 back to Nedzarici was in the year 2000.
22 Q. And what did you do, if you didn't return to Nedzarici on the 27th
23 of May? Let's leave 2000 aside now. What happened then?
24 A. When I left the hospital, I joined the army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Before we continue, can you just please tell me if you ever worked
1 in a hospital?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever have the rank of NCO?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you ever heard of the Serbian Guard, and if you did, can you
6 please tell us what it is?
7 A. I've heard of the elite Serbian Guard.
8 Q. Did you ever belong to the ranks of that guard?
9 A. Unfortunately, no.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me whether any of your close
11 relatives lived in Sarajevo throughout the conflict in an area that was
12 under the control of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes. I had a lot of family that remained in Sarajevo. They were
14 loyal to the then authorities, including my brother.
15 Q. Can you just briefly point out on the map of the city of Sarajevo
16 several things.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we do this quickly. This is
18 document 2872.
19 Q. While we're waiting for the map to be shown, you were in the
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. In which brigade?
21 A. I joined the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, the logistics battalion.
22 Q. Who was the brigade commander?
23 A. The brigade commander was Veljko Stojanovic.
24 Q. Who was the battalion commander?
25 A. That was Mirosav Pandic, captain.
1 Q. And what did you do in the rear or in the logistics section of the
3 A. I repaired motor vehicles, the ones with wheels.
4 Q. At the time, the time that we're talking about, which part of town
5 were you in now, as a member of the army of Republika Srpska?
6 A. That was Lukavica in the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks.
7 Q. Can we please zoom in on the map, in order to point out a few
9 Can you please point out where the barracks was, where you worked?
10 A. I'm sorry, but I really have difficulty finding my way around a
11 map. I never worked with a map, and Lukavica was --
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll up a little
13 bit. Can we scroll the map up a little bit, please.
14 You can only see here -- you cannot see -- no, no. The other
15 way. I would like to look at the southern part of the map. Scroll a bit
16 more. A little bit more, please.
17 Q. And now can you see?
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness very
20 A. It's a little bit harder to find, but Lukavica is right underneath
21 Mojmilo. I'm trying to find Mojmilo now.
22 I think that is Dobrinja.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, well, let's not waste time.
25 This barracks where you worked, how far was it from the line of
2 A. 6 to 800 metres, as the crow flies.
3 Q. And the place where the barracks was, how far was that from
5 A. Well, that's what I meant.
6 Q. And what was the position of the place where the barracks was, in
7 terms of the configuration of the terrain?
8 A. Since I grew up on Mojmilo hill, that was the most dominant
9 elevation, and the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks was at the base of
10 Mojmilo hill, in a plateau.
11 Q. And can you please tell us, can you tell the Judges, where your
12 brother's house or apartment was, in Sarajevo? Can you at least indicate
13 that on the map, or can you say where that was?
14 A. Well, I can tell you where it was. The apartment of my brother
15 was in Dolac-Malta, in the very centre of town.
16 Q. And throughout the war, that's where he lived?
17 A. He remained loyal to the then authorities until he was arrested
18 and taken to the camp.
19 Q. And can you please tell me, this place where you were with your
20 family, was your family in Lukavica also?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in the events that followed, were there any combat actions in
23 which you yourself participated?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And these combat actions, did it mean anything to you that your
1 own brother was living in the centre of Sarajevo?
2 A. Well, of course it meant something. It was important when we were
3 provoked, at that point in time, unfortunately, I had to fire at my own
5 Q. During 1992 and 1993, did anything else happen to you personally
6 in the course of combat?
7 A. Yes. On the 2nd of January, 1993, I was wounded at the technical
8 workshop in the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks.
9 Q. What kind of a wound did you receive?
10 A. It was extremely dangerous. It was a fracture of the skull and I
11 had a very, very serious concussion and it was a life-threatening injury.
12 Q. How long were you on sick-leave?
13 A. I was on sick-leave until June 1993, late June 1993.
14 Q. Can you please tell me, you were wounded once, and then you were
15 wounded the second time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you ever inflict a wound on yourself?
18 A. That's something that never occurred to me.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Judges, if you can, when you
20 joined the SRK, the barracks and the municipality of Lukavica, were there
21 any heavy weapons there?
22 A. There were some at that time, yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us what you noticed and what can you confirm as
24 having seen of the heavy weapons.
25 A. In 1992 and 1993, I noted several tanks. There were two Pragas,
1 and there were a few mortars a little bit farther away.
2 Q. And you returned to your positions in mid-1993. Could you say if
3 there was anything characteristic about 1994. Were you still at Lukavica,
4 and are you able to say anything about what the situation was in 1994?
5 A. In late 1993 and the very beginning of 1994 were marked by
6 considerable combat actions and then onwards from May 1994, the --
7 lessened, I think some kind of a truce was signed. But I think that
8 during the truces the highest casualties were among the civilian
10 Q. And can you tell me if you found out anything about what happened
11 with the heavy weaponry in 1994?
12 A. After the truce was signed, our heavy weapons were pulled back
13 from the town and they were placed under the monitoring of I will say the
14 United Nations, again it was under 24-hour surveillance.
15 Q. And do you know when Dragomir Milosevic took up the post of the
16 SRK commander?
17 A. The general came in August 1994.
18 Q. And the first months when he arrived, what were they like, the
19 months from August on and then until the end of 1994?
20 A. We were issued an order then. It wasn't a prohibition but an
21 order that we were not permitted to fire from infantry or artillery
22 weapons until mid-October, from what I can remember.
23 Q. And during the quiet period, was there any event that you
25 A. Yes. I remember a very striking image, an incident that happened
1 a few steps away from me when two sisters, 14 and 16 years of age, went to
2 the canteen to buy something because there was nowhere else where they
3 could buy anything and they were hit or struck by a shell. One was killed
4 and one was -- both of her legs were severed.
5 Q. What happened in October 1994, or, rather let me ask you this
6 first. Since you were in Lukavica, from that place could you observe
7 anything at the foot of Hrasno?
8 A. We couldn't see Hrasno, since it is beyond Mojmilo hill.
9 Q. I apologise, my mistake. Hrasnica.
10 A. Throughout that period, we followed civilians who moved together
11 with soldiers entering the tunnel below the Butmir -- or underneath the
12 Butmir airport.
13 Q. Did you receive any orders regarding that, since there was
14 movement of troops there?
15 A. Since our command was properly aware of the tactics of the army of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina by which they mixed with civilians, our command
17 expressly forebade opening any fire. They said we are not allowed to use
18 even a slingshot, let alone a rifle.
19 Q. Do you know what happened in October, November and December in
20 that area of Sarajevo?
21 A. Yes. During those months, we were under attack along all of the
22 lines of separation. It was a fierce attack, therefore I -- our command
23 decided to take people who had work obligation to the front lines, since
24 they were far more numerous than we were.
25 Q. What did things look like in Lukavica at that time, Lukavica and
1 the environs, having in mind that there was fighting in other places as
3 A. It was fierce. In Dobrinja IV, Dobrinja I, as far as I know,
4 shells landed in settlements where civilians were in Lukavica, Toplik,
5 Bijelo Polje and the rest.
6 Q. After all those events in 1994, between October and December did
7 something come about, something which is different?
8 A. Things got quieter after that.
9 Q. Until when?
10 A. Until May 1995.
11 Q. What began taking place then?
12 A. Then there was fighting again, infantry attacks, artillery
13 attacks. They targeted military facilities as well as residential areas
14 inhabited by civilians. There were many, many civilian casualties as well
15 as among the soldiers.
16 Q. Which period is particularly important? When did things escalate
17 the most?
18 A. This was all by way of preparation of theirs, I think. The
19 assessment of our command was quite correct in that regard. They foresaw
20 that things would get worse in -- in October.
21 Q. You are now in October but you were talking about May.
22 A. Yes, yes. The worst situation was the last month and a half.
23 There were fierce attacks on Trnovo, Vojnicko and other places.
24 Q. You said something about a fierce attack and that they tried to
25 stretch out your forces. Can you explain what that means?
1 A. They attacked along the entire line of separation. Our scouts
2 noticed the grouping of their soldiers above Trnovo. I don't know about
3 the Ilidza theatre because I wasn't there then.
4 Q. In Lukavica?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm just trying to establish the
7 basis of the witness's knowledge. It certainly does not come across or
8 did not come across in the 65 ter summary that Trnovo would be an area of
9 discussion. Again, I could -- I could lead this in cross-examination, but
10 the confrontation lines are --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's just ask him, then.
12 Witness, what is the basis of your knowledge? How did you acquire
13 that information?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, which piece of
15 information exactly are we talking about?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The last answer that you gave, that they attacked
17 along the entire line of separation.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The attack that occurred was
19 along the entire separation line. However --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, how did you know that? The question is,
21 how did you know that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The separation lines were very
23 close. In certain locations, only a road divided us. We would hear
24 firing, that is, soldiers between each other talked and we would get
25 information from our superiors, like platoon leaders or company commanders
1 or battalion commanders and the rest. They would inform us.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
3 Mr. Tapuskovic.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. At the time of those events, were you able to observe anything or
6 did you participate in any combat operations at Mojmilo?
7 A. Yes. I was attached to the Oslanska to the Cavarkapa [phoen]
8 house were there was a particularly fierce attack in which we were
9 outnumbered by far. And they had much better equipment too. However, we
10 managed to defend ourselves.
11 Q. To be specific, having in mind the question posed by my learned
12 friend Mr. Sachdeva, I wanted to ask -- show you document D107.
13 Witness, please read out the heading. We won't read the whole
14 thing, but please read the heading and what follows immediately after,
15 including the first paragraph, slowly.
16 A. Could I have a hard copy? Because after I was wounded for the
17 second time, my sight worsened. I cannot see it too well.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let him have a hard copy.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Please read slowly. Read it out loud.
21 A. "Command of the 12th division. Strictly confidential number
22 02/2-7-10, Sarajevo, 26 June, 1995. Proposal of chosen targets to be
23 destroyed and to tie up the aggressor forces by unit."
24 Two -- should I continue?
25 Q. The first paragraph.
1 A. "Pursuant to the order of the 1st corps, Chief of Staff, strictly
2 confidential number 01/3-151, of 25 June, 1995, to carry out active combat
3 operations in the zone of responsibility of all brigades, in the zone of
4 responsibility of the 12th DKOV," I don't know what the abbreviation
5 stands for, "in order to tie up the aggressor forces around the city and
6 disperse them, offering relief to our forces outside the city in the zone
7 of responsibility of the 14th and 16th DKOV."
8 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you the following. We see a term here,
9 which is tying up or dispersing or stretching out and you mentioned the
10 very word before. Does that correspond to what you were able to see on
11 the ground? Do you see any similarity between the document and the
12 situation on the ground?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please go to page 3 now.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can have it on the
16 screen as well. At the bottom, 3 BB.
17 A. "I approve the use of 3 RPG mines, 1 B/K for PA ASP, 1 B/K for AP,
18 target 1 MG in Ponjarca street, first floor."
19 Q. Continue.
20 A. "The group operator, RPG, also commander, assistant sniper, two
22 Q. Is that what was happening on the ground?
23 A. Yes, since I know where Danila Ponjarca street is. There was a
24 fierce clash there for some five to six hours. We were trying to repel
25 their attacks. We managed to do that in the end.
1 Q. Were there any casualties on your side?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us something more about the combat operations. We
4 saw the date of the document. It was in June. Can you tell me what the
5 things were like during that one month? How long did the offensive or
6 those combat operations last?
7 A. Well, not only for one month. Maybe they were fierce for only a
8 month, but there were clashes on a daily basis even after that.
9 Q. Were there any casualties?
10 A. Yes, on the front line itself. I can tell Their Honours that my
11 neighbour was killed by a shell which fell on a residential area. It
12 probably overshot and he was killed in front of his own house. He was a
14 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether you know anything about an
15 operation called Lukavac 93?
16 A. I have heard of that operation. It was aimed at Trnovo. I know
17 about it. We were attached to Trnovo, or, rather to their defence.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last part
19 of the sentence.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just repeat the last part of your
21 sentence, Witness.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, from the rear battalion, were
23 attached for the purpose of that operation, the Lukavac operation, to
24 them. We had very few fighters, and it was very difficult to defend
25 Trnovo at that moment.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. It was an offensive operation on the part of the VRS; is that so?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Lukavac 93?
5 A. Oh, Lukavac 93, yes.
6 Q. What about after the Lukavac 93 operation. Were there any other
7 offensive operations by the VRS that you know of?
8 A. No, there was no need to. I haven't heard of any other Lukavac
10 Q. What is your function in the local community? Perhaps you can
11 answer that question, but I should ask for the leave of the Bench, since I
12 believe it is of some importance for the society in Republika Srpska.
13 A. Currently I head an NGO which deals with the families of the
14 missing persons of the Sarajevo-Romanija region. I am the organisation's
16 Q. What sort of numbers do you have and I suppose you turn those over
17 to the federation and the Republika Srpska pertaining to the number of
18 missing persons in the area that used to be controlled by the ABiH?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that was leading, in my submission.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it was.
22 Reformulate the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This association of yours, were they able to establish anything
25 about the fate of those who went missing during the conflict in
2 A. In our organisation, we have the figure of 823 missing civilians
3 of Serbian ethnicity during the war.
4 Q. Tell me something else: During that part of your work, were you
5 able to find out anything about your father? Do you have any information
6 concerning him?
7 A. Yes. I learned that in 1998 the mortal remains of my father were
8 taken to an unknown location. When that was happening, Ibrahim Sangic
9 [phoen], an investigative judge was present.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, with respect, my submission is that
12 this evidence is irrelevant.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why do you say this is relevant, Mr. Tapuskovic?
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we're talking about just the
16 part that relates to his father, then maybe I could stop and then I would
17 not have any more examination.
18 I think my learned friend Mr. Sachdeva placed his objection at the
19 point in time when I was asking about the witness's father, so perhaps I
20 can then stop there and I have no further questions anymore.
21 Thank you, witness.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. So Mr. Sachdeva now.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
25 Q. Good evening, Mr. Mandic. My name is Manoj Sachdeva and I'm with
1 the Prosecution and I'm going to ask you few questions today and possibly
2 -- actually definitely also continue tomorrow.
3 Can I just start by you recall that you gave evidence about two
4 girls that were -- that had gone to the canteen and that were killed by
5 shell. I think that's what you said. Do you remember that evidence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I take it that the canteen you speak about was the canteen at
8 the Slobodan Princip barracks in Lukavica; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you -- I understand that you were in the logistics battalion
11 for the 1st Sarajevo mechanised brigade?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you have a particular role in that battalion or were you
14 just -- in other words, were you a commander of the battalion or were you
15 simply working in that battalion?
16 A. I was just a regular soldier.
17 Q. And you were in the battalion from -- excluding the times when you
18 were wounded, I take it you were in that battalion from 1992 through to
19 1995; is that right?
20 A. From the 27th of May, 1992 until 1995, yes.
21 Q. And in that battalion you told the Court that you worked with
22 motor vehicles with wheels; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And presumably within the logistics battalion there were other
25 persons or your colleagues worked on similar -- worked also with vehicles
1 but did you also have colleagues that worked with ammunition or fuel? Is
2 that also correct?
3 A. Yes, it was the logistics battalion.
4 Q. And is it also right that the persons that a worked in the
5 logistics battalion were not involved in combat or were not on the front
6 lines? Is that right?
7 A. We went to the front lines if there was a need.
8 Q. So when you gave testimony today that you were involved in combat,
9 I think you spoke about the -- the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo
10 because your brother lived there. I take it you were involved in combat
11 as well as working in the logistics battalion. Am I correct in that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And while you were in the logistics battalion, how often did you
15 venture to the front lines and how often were you involved in combat? And
16 if I may, I'm interested in the period in 1994 and 1995.
17 A. As I said, it was based on if it was necessary, if it was needed.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, in relation to the answer that you gave
19 to counsel about the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo because your
20 brother lived there, as a person working in the logistics section of the
21 army, would you have been firing into Sarajevo? Would you personally have
22 been firing into Sarajevo?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never -- we never fired first. But
24 if the lives of our children were concerned or my brother's life, then I
25 would want to make sure they stayed alive.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, that is not the question I was asking. You
2 spoke about the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo because your brother
3 lived there. And I want to find out whether, as a person working in the
4 logistics section of the army, it would have been part of your duty to
5 fire a rifle or some other weapon into Sarajevo. Was that part of your
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At certain points, yes. If we were
8 attacked. Only in case we were attacked. But we would never fire at
9 Sarajevo just like that. There was no reason. And let me also tell you
10 that I only had an automatic rifle.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Well, you had an automatic rifle.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And if it were necessary, you would have fired
14 it. Would you have been called upon to fire it as a person working in the
15 logistics section of the army. Is that right?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. SACHDEVA:
18 Q. So, Mr. Mandic, when you did venture to the front lines and when
19 you were called upon to fire into Sarajevo, were you still part of the
20 logistics battalion or were you part of another battalion; an infantry
21 battalion, for example?
22 A. I was part of the logistics battalion at all times. But, as I
23 said before, we were attached, because we didn't have that many men. We
24 were attached to carry out combat actions.
25 Q. Was your brother, because you spoke about your brother who had
1 remained in the centre of Sarajevo, was your brother a member of the army
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or was he a civilian?
3 A. My brother remained loyal to the then authorities. He was taken
4 to the front lines by force until he was arrested by some men who detained
5 him and kept him until the end of the war, until the 18th of January,
6 1996. That's when he was exchanged.
7 Q. Yes, I'm sorry to hear that, and my question, however, was
8 slightly different. I just want to establish whether your brother was a
9 civilian. I take it that he was a civilian?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so when you told the Court that, if necessary, you had to fire
12 into Sarajevo, and I think you told the Court that it didn't -- it didn't
13 sit well with you because your brother was still living in the centre of
14 Sarajevo. Is that how I understand your evidence?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And it is right, is it not, that --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we
19 could also object to this question where there's insistence on firing at
20 Sarajevo. He never said that he fired at Sarajevo. He said what were the
21 circumstances in which he had to shoot. The question about firing at
22 Sarajevo, I think is not appropriate, because he never said that he fired
23 at Sarajevo. He said that sometimes in certain circumstances he was
24 attached or he described the circumstances in which he fired. He
25 explained that, but he never said that he fired at Sarajevo. That
1 question is not appropriate. So that is the thrust of my objection.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not in a position to uphold it. I think the
3 question is proper.
4 MR. SACHDEVA:
5 Q. Mr. Mandic, I just -- I'm going to repeat the question. When you
6 told the Court that in certain circumstances you had to fire into
7 Sarajevo, you also told the Court that it didn't sit well with you because
8 your brother remained -- remained in the centre of Sarajevo? And is
9 that -- is that a correct understanding of your evidence?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: He already answered that and said that is
11 correct. You asked that already and he said that was correct.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: Oh, I apologise, Mr. President. I didn't see the
14 Q. And, Mr. Mandic, it troubled you because often when fire was
15 directed at Sarajevo, civilians would be killed and injured in the centre
16 of Sarajevo. That's why it troubled you, didn't it?
17 A. The activities, the combat activities that I spoke about were
18 mostly clashes between front lines. And I never was deployed anywhere to
19 be able to fire into the centre of Sarajevo. We mainly fought between
20 Dobrinja IV, Dobrinja II and Dobrinja IV -- III.
21 Q. So your brother did not live in the centre of Sarajevo. Is that
22 what you're saying?
23 A. No. My brother did live in the centre of Sarajevo, at
25 Q. And that's why I'm asking you to -- well, I'm suggesting to you
1 that the reason why you were troubled about firing into Sarajevo when --
2 when, as you said, when it was necessary, you were troubled because
3 regularly civilians were hit, killed and injured by fire coming from the
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has
7 responded to the Prosecutor's question, not to my question, but to the
8 Prosecutor's question in relation to this problem. He said that in the
9 situation when I am faced with the choice of saving my children and firing
10 at the other side, I would decide to fire on the other side and to protect
11 my children. So I don't understand why there is so much insistence on
12 this. The witness has already responded several times to this.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, no, he has not. This question is
14 more specific.
15 Witness, the question being put to you is that you were troubled
16 because regularly civilians were hit, killed and injured by fire coming
17 from the SRK. Counsel is suggesting that what is why you were troubled
18 about firing into Sarajevo.
19 How do you answer that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said anything like that in
21 my testimony.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You never said what?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that civilians were
24 getting killed from fire opened by the army of Republika Srpska.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not what counsel is saying. Counsel is
1 saying that you were troubled, you were worried about firing into Sarajevo
2 because civilians were regularly getting killed and injured by fire coming
3 from the SRK. He's saying that that is the reason why you were worried
4 and troubled about firing into Sarajevo.
5 Is he right or is he not right?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is not right, and if
7 you allow me, I will explain.
8 I said that my own brother was taken to the front lines by force.
9 That could possibly be Zuc, Dobrinja, Stup. It doesn't matter. And then
10 when we had combat actions in relation to the enemy side, then I was
11 thinking in my mind about perhaps if my brother had been brought there as
12 a soldier, actually he never wore a uniform. He wore civilian clothing.
13 A Serb there would be collateral damage. And that's when I said that that
14 was when I had it in my mind that perhaps I could hit my own brother. But
15 if the lives of my children and the life of my brother were in question,
16 then I said that I would choose to protect the lives of my children. This
17 is what I said.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: On that note, we'll take the break and resume
19 tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 a.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th of July,
22 2007, at 9.00 a.m.