Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7909

1 Tuesday, 10 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I believe you are to continue.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Good morning Mr. President. Thank you.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kovacevic. I trust you've rested last night?

12 A. Good morning. Yes.

13 Q. Before I continue with the line of questioning I left with

14 yesterday, I just want to again confirm with you that in November 1994 you

15 moved from the Ilijas Brigade to the Romanija Brigade. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And -- well, why did you move, actually?

18 A. It wasn't just me that moved. My whole company moved to be under

19 the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade, under the 1st battalion. I don't

20 know who decided that, perhaps the command, but the actual combat

21 activities remained the same.

22 Q. And I take it that you stayed within that brigade up until the end

23 of the conflict?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And approximately, as I understand it, the Romanija Brigade's area

Page 7910

1 of responsibility was towards the south-east of Sarajevo. In other words,

2 towards Pale. Is that correct?

3 A. The 1st Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade together with a part

4 of the Ilijas Brigade held the Nisici plateau.

5 Q. Very well. That's what I wanted to ask you because yesterday you

6 gave evidence that you were -- you gave evidence about combat activity on

7 the 15th of June in 1995 in Nisici and my understanding was that the area

8 of responsibility for the Ilijas Brigade was different to the area of

9 responsibility of the Romanija Brigade. So I take it when you gave

10 evidence about the attack at Nisici on the 15th of June, 1995 you were

11 yourself there. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. But you were under the command of Mr. Lizdek, Vlado Lizdek who was

14 the commander of the 1st Romanija Brigade. Is that right?

15 A. Yes. Vlado Lizdek was the brigade commander and Dragan Tupajic

16 was the commander of my battalion.

17 Q. Very well of the thank you for that clarification..

18 Now yesterday you told the Court that Dragan Josipovic the

19 commander of the Ilijas Brigade would come into the trenches, do you

20 remember telling the Court that?

21 A. Yes, all the commanders who were there would go and tour the

22 trenches. They would see the fighters. Of course they communicated with

23 us in the normal fashion.

24 Q. And I take it that he communicated with you in order to apprise

25 himself of the situation with respect to morale of the soldiers, with

Page 7911

1 respect to levels of ammunition and also to -- to get a grip on the

2 various combat activities that were taking place. Is that a fair

3 statement, sir?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. And yesterday you also told the Court when I asked you about--

6 about the targets that were drawn up by the command, you told the Court

7 that the brigade commander and the battalion commanders would draw up

8 certain targets that were then communicated to the subordinates. You

9 remember telling the Court that yesterday?

10 A. Well, I don't know that I put it quite that way.

11 Q. Well, it's correct, is it not, that within the brigade and down

12 the level of command, the chain of command, various targets were

13 identified for combat activity and those targets would be communicated

14 down to the persons that would actually engage the targets. Would you

15 agree with that?

16 A. I explained yesterday and I'm repeating this today, that we were

17 in defensive positions and there was no attack on our part.

18 Q. Yes, I'm not referring the question to whether it was an attack or

19 whether it was a defensive action. You would agree even in defensive

20 actions targets would still be identified. You agree with that, don't

21 you?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Now, yesterday I started talking about the town of Breza. Do you

24 remember that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 7912

1 Q. And I understand that in Breza there was a marketplace that

2 operated during the conflict, an open-air market. Is that something you

3 know about?

4 A. I don't know about the open-air market. There was a market before

5 the war, but during the war, it was under the command of the army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the area; so I don't know what happened to the market,

7 if it was working or not.

8 Q. And are you also -- well, do you know of a funeral or, sorry, a

9 cemetery at the Zupca settlement is that something that you know about?

10 Irrespective of whether it's within -- well, understand it was within the

11 area of responsibility for the Bosnian army?

12 A. I just heard of the Zupca place. I don't know about the cemetery.

13 I never went there.

14 Q. Sir, during the time you were with the Ilijas Brigade, did Dragan

15 Josipovic through battalion commanders and through your battalion

16 commander did he ever order to you fire at the marketplace at Breza and at

17 funeral processions at the Zupca cemetery?

18 A. No, never. That was just not like that. It's impossible.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might we move into private session,

20 please, with your leave.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you said it was impossible for that

22 order, that kind of order to have been given. Would you explain that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's not logical to

24 me for somebody to fire at the market or the procession. I don't really

25 understand if somebody is saying anything like that. I simply don't

Page 7913

1 believe it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is not comprehensible to you, not

3 understandable by you. Is that so?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's impossible.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well.

6 Private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

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Page 7914











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Page 7930

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.


17 Q. Witness, I'm sorry for the -- for the deviation. Sometimes these

18 procedural issues arise, and we have to discuss them.

19 I'm going move to a different topic now and as you have heard, I

20 will return to what we were speaking about earlier tomorrow.

21 Firstly, can I just -- would you agree that the relative strength

22 of the Ilijas Brigade was somewhere in the region of 1500 to 1700

23 combatants. Is that roughly correct?

24 A. I don't know the exact number, but it was approximately that.

25 Q. Now, when you moved to the Romanija Brigade on the -- in November

Page 7931

1 1994, I take it you're also an infantry person in the trenches. Is that

2 right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And you also had semi-automatic and automatic rifles at your

5 disposal?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I understand that the Romanija Brigade had -- well, just let

8 me know if this is right. There was the Jahorina Battalion; is that

9 right?

10 A. I think so. This was the 1st Battalion of the 1st Romanija

11 Brigade.

12 Q. And there were also the -- the Podgara Sokolac and the Pale and

13 Hresa battlions within the Romanija Brigade?

14 A. It is possible, but I don't know the exact name of the battalion.

15 Q. And what is correct when you moved to the Romanija Brigade in

16 1994, were you still stationed at Nisici or were you -- were you in the

17 sort of south-east part of Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, the whole time I was at Nisici.

19 Q. So while you may have moved from one brigade to another, you never

20 moved from your specific location. Is that right?

21 A. Yes, I've just said that the 1st Battalion of the 1st Romanija

22 Brigade, together with the Ilijas Brigade, held positions at the Nisici

23 plateau.

24 Q. Now, in both brigades - that is the Ilijas and the Romanija

25 Brigade - we've spoken about the number of battalions. I understand there

Page 7932

1 were also military police battalions within both brigades. Is that right?

2 A. No, I'm not aware of the military police.

3 Q. You don't know whether the brigades had military police, whether

4 there were battalions of military police departments within the brigades?

5 A. The military police was maybe a -- the strength of one platoon,

6 but I'm not aware of the military police having a battalion. There were

7 not so many military policemen.

8 Q. Very well. Let's -- then I take it that there were within the

9 Ilijas and the Romanija Brigade there were military police platoons? Not

10 the size of a battalion but there were platoons. Is that right?

11 A. I don't know what the formation was. There were some military

12 police that had to look after the order amongst the troops, but there were

13 not many of them.

14 Q. Well, leaving aside the number of them, the -- the persons that

15 were tasked with military police activities, I take it that they would, if

16 need be, conduct investigations into desertion into possible crimes

17 committed by the soldiers. That would be their role, would it not?

18 A. Well, yes.

19 Q. And so if -- if for example a brigade commander; that is,

20 Dragan Josipovic or Vlado Lizdek, if they became aware of possible crimes

21 being committed by the soldiers or desertions by their soldiers, they

22 would be able to instruct the military police to conduct investigations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when I talk about crimes, that would also include any persons,

25 any soldiers, that may have committed war crimes or may have, for example,

Page 7933

1 targeted civilians. Isn't that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so do I take it from your answer that you are aware of

4 investigations conducted of soldiers that committed war crimes or may have

5 targeted civilian? Is that what happened?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you saying that it did not happen or are you saying that

8 you're not aware of any investigations?

9 A. I know that it didn't happen in the area of responsibility where

10 we had our actions, but I don't know if it happened on some other place.

11 Q. So when you say you don't know if it happened on some other place,

12 can I suggest to you that in areas within the brigade that you would not

13 have been at, you accept that soldiers may have targeted civilians or may

14 have committed war crimes?

15 A. No, I didn't hear that there were any, and I don't believe there

16 were.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said

19 specifically that where he was there was nothing like that. He answered,

20 and Mr. Sachdeva then repeated the answer back, if you give a categoric

21 answer to a question, I don't understand then how can you insist again on

22 the same question.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. President, with your leave, I did not repeat

24 the question. The witness answered that within his area of responsibility

25 he didn't of hear it. And I asked him about other areas within the

Page 7934

1 brigade, and he has given me the answer. I did not repeat my question.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. It wasn't a repetition.

3 Now, we need to move on, and we have spent a lot of time on the

4 procedural matter. And I don't consider this to be a fundamental issue.

5 Mr. Sachdeva, you will take care not to repeat your questions.

6 Don't beat a point. Don't belabour a point.

7 And, Mr. Tapuskovic, you will take care not to rise every minute.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President, I will, although I did not --

9 yes, I'll move on.

10 Q. Witness, you earlier said in testimony yesterday that there were

11 observers within the Ilijas Brigade. You remember that testimony?

12 A. At all parts of the lines of separation, we had observers, people

13 who did the surveillance. That's normal.

14 Q. And then this also applied to the Romanija Brigade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So can we put it this way, they were akin to reconnaissance --

17 reconnaissance teams. Would that be a fair characterisation?

18 A. These were observers in the trenches. If there were three men in

19 the trench, one of them would constantly be observing and monitoring what

20 is going on in case something had to be done.

21 Q. And so that person who was monitoring constantly monitoring what

22 was going on, if that person identified; for example, a tank or a movement

23 of soldiers within enemy territory, that information would be communicated

24 back to the company command or battalion command. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 7935

1 Q. I want to -- with respect to the Romanija Brigade and so this

2 would your time from November 1994 onwards, I already told you that the

3 commander, and you agreed with me, the commander was Mr. Lizdek; and he

4 remained in command until the end of the war, I understand. Is that

5 right.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now within the battalions of the Romanija Brigade there were, I

8 take it, there were companies under these battalions?

9 A. Yes, a battalion is made up of companies.

10 Q. And the members of these companies, as you were, were also issued

11 with semi-automatic and automatic rifles. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It's also right, is it not, that within these companies there were

14 two or three persons that were issued with sniper rifles.

15 A. There were no snipers in the combat actions in the area of

16 responsibility where I was.

17 Q. But there were persons with rifles that could carry 7.62 bullets,

18 7.09 bullets. Isn't that right?

19 A. All the semi-automatic and automatic weapons that we used used

20 7.62-millimetre ammunition.

21 Q. And you said that -- well, let me ask you: If you were to see

22 while you were at the company while you were at the trenches, whether in

23 the Ilijas or the Romanija Brigade, when you saw a soldier in enemy

24 territory, you would take a shot at that soldier, wouldn't you?

25 A. Not until they fired.

Page 7936

1 Q. So you understand that there was a conflict between your army and

2 the ABiH. You understand that, don't you?

3 A. Of course I understand.

4 Q. And you also understand that the ABiH and the SRK, if they were to

5 take out a soldier from the respective army -- from the opposite army,

6 that would be to their advantage. You understand that, don't

7 you?

8 A. Yes, yes, in actions, in offensives.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I just wish to inform the Defence

10 that the Prosecution has just forwarded the unredacted transcript of the

11 testimony of Witness AD. And I see the head of Ms. Isailovic nodding,

12 that she has received it.

13 Is that so? May I hear from you? Yes, may I hear from you

14 orally.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, President. We

16 received a copy of the transcript. Now I'm going to check whether it is

17 the actual thing.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 Let us move on.


21 Q. Witness, you recall my last question.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

23 said.


25 Q. Can you repeat your answer, please. I think you said "yes." Is

Page 7937

1 that right.

2 A. Yes, yes, I do remember the question.

3 Q. Sir, you agree --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was your answer to the question? The

5 interpreter didn't hear the answer.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was waiting for -- well, I said

7 that there were actions in case of offensive actions at enemy positions.


9 Q. So, Witness, you understand, you agree that taking out a soldier

10 of the -- of the opposite army would be advantageous to your army. You

11 agree with that statement, don't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But if I understand you correctly, what you're saying to the Court

14 is that if you were to see within your sights a member of the army of the

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina and you had your rifle pinned on that person, you

16 would not shoot that person. Is that what you're saying to the Court?

17 A. Yes. You asked me about observers and I can confirm that we saw

18 each other every day. They saw us and we saw them. If it was the way you

19 said, then we would never stop firing at each other.

20 Q. Well, I don't know if that's an answer to my question.

21 When you would --

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm forced to react and I will

25 have to react each time a question is repeated. He decidedly responded a

Page 7938

1 few minutes ago that there was no firing until the offensive actions

2 begin; or, in other words, before firing from the other side came.

3 Otherwise, he said they would be firing at all times if they were to fire

4 every time they saw each other, because they would see each other many

5 times throughout the day. He already explained that several times.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, firstly I hadn't even started my

7 question, so I submit that Mr. Tapuskovic has risen early. And secondly,

8 in my submission, it's a perfectly acceptable form of cross-examination.

9 I have asked a question and the witness has given me an answer. I'm

10 trying to probe a bit further. I'm trying to move into areas of his

11 credibility. And if he has given an answer, that's fine I'll move on. But

12 I don't think, in my submission, that's an incorrect way to proceed.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in cross-examination, you are

14 allowed to probe. And the same question may be asked in a different

15 manner. The same issue may be probed in different ways. And I agree with

16 you though if a question is asked and an answer is given in an unequivocal

17 manner, then the question shouldn't be asked again.

18 Let us move on.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: So let me just try and understand your answer,

20 witness, and your evidence. You're saying, and it's not a repetition I

21 just want to get clarity in my mind. What you're saying is that, even

22 when you had sight of an ABiH personnel unless that person was firing you,

23 you would not take that person out. Is that what you're saying to the

24 Court.

25 A. Precisely.

Page 7939

1 Q. Did you ever fire at able-bodied men between the ages of 20 and

2 60?

3 A. Well, in an offensive I don't know how old they would be, between

4 20 and 60. But, yes, there was firing. Of course.

5 Q. So you're saying that you would fire at men between the ages of 20

6 and 60?

7 A. I said yes, in offensives, that I would, and I did.

8 Q. And this is irrespective of whether they were wearing civilian

9 clothes or military clothes. Is that right?

10 A. There were no civilians, as I said yesterday, in that area of

11 actions. We were in defensive positions, we were preserving our positions

12 we had no intention of advancing. So in case or in the event of being

13 fired upon or attacked, then we would respond.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, am I permitted to move into areas of

15 questions that refer to Witness AD's evidence, or -- no, I understand

16 tomorrow morning, excuse me.

17 Q. Witness, in your time at the Ilijas and the Romanija Brigade, we

18 have -- in this case, we have heard much evidence that in addition to

19 mortars, Howitzers, infantry weapons, that the SRK also deployed what were

20 termed as modified air bombs. You must know about that. Is that right?

21 A. I never heard of that.

22 Q. But you heard that these modified air bombs existed, didn't you?

23 A. Never.

24 Q. You know what a modified air bomb is, don't you?

25 A. No.

Page 7940

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I have a moment to confer.


3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] To use this break, Your Honour,

6 Judge Robinson, I think there was a discussion after -- before, but in

7 view of the time spent on this witness and the time spent by the

8 Prosecution with this witness, I think that time has run out. So I would

9 just like to know whether the Prosecutor will have the opportunity to

10 question this witness for sometime longer.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you submitting that I should terminate the

12 Prosecutor's cross-examination?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm not asking that, and I'm

14 not saying that. I am just asking that attention be paid to the time

15 spent. It doesn't matter that I spent less time with this witness than I

16 the right to, and the Prosecution has that right as well. But, of course,

17 I expect that you would make a decision on this matter.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, yes, we do need to have regard to

19 the time and I'm having regard to it. I was advised about 15 minutes ago

20 that you had five minutes remaining, but that didn't include the

21 procedural -- the time taken up in the procedural matters.

22 How much longer will be spending?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I need -- I think I'm going to ask

24 one and if need be, a possible a follow-up question. And then I would

25 still need to ask a couple of questions with respect to Witness AD's

Page 7941

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, very well.

3 Go ahead.


5 Q. Witness, just again to confirm that you spent the whole war in

6 Nisici, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And as we discussed earlier yesterday, Nisici is roughly 20

9 kilometres from the centre of Sarajevo, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And so while you were -- while you may have been within the

12 Romanija Brigade and the Ilijas Brigade, you would -- you were -- you

13 would not be in a position to know what the relative military movements

14 were in all parts of the brigade because you were concentrated solely at

15 Nisici. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, I was at the Nisici plateau.

17 Q. So when -- when you spoke in your evidence to -- evidence in chief

18 with Mr. Tapuskovic about the weapons withdrawal, you don't know, do you,

19 if -- you don't know the extent, if any, of weapons withdrawal within the

20 full area of the Romanija or the Ilijas Brigade, do you?

21 A. All I know is that until 1994, we had one tank. After that, we

22 had five tanks and there were many mortars and Howitzers. Many more than

23 up until 1994, and I said that in my statement. I don't know the exact

24 number though.

25 Q. Yes. I accept that. But what I'm putting to you, sir, is that

Page 7942

1 you don't know the extent of the weapons withdrawal in -- in the

2 area of the Ilijas and the Romanija Brigade and within the

3 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. You just know -- know about the weapons that

4 were brought to Nisici. Isn't that right?

5 A. Yes, that is right. I said that there were many more than there

6 had been until then.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, those are the questions for the

8 moment, until tomorrow.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I wanted to wait until the

11 Prosecutor finished his cross-examination before speaking up. I want to

12 come back to your testimony of yesterday. If you turn to page 69,

13 line 22, you stated that by mid-August, after the arrival of General

14 Milosevic, the situation -- the military situation on your side was

15 stabilised. Your positions were reinforced, in Vares following the

16 arrival or the fact that artillery was being supplied.

17 Now, you, being a combatant in the trenches, under the command of

18 General Galic and Milosevic, you are experienced, you know about those

19 times. And when you're telling us that your positions were reinforced and

20 that your situation was stabilised what comes to my mind is a question, a

21 question I would like to ask you.

22 How can you explain this reinforcement of your position or the

23 stablisation of your military situation? May I venture to even think out

24 loud of some of the possible answers you will correct me. Is it due to

25 the military qualities of General Milosevic, the commander of the corps,

Page 7943

1 or is it due to the arrival of the new artillery weapons, or to any other

2 possible reasons or any other possible factor? Do you have an answer to

3 give me in terms of this concern?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can answer.

5 I testified that the situation in mid-August stabilized that we

6 consolidated our lines, and I don't know if I heard properly or perhaps it

7 wasn't translated properly, especially in the parts of Vares.

8 Unfortunately, no, those parts of Vares fell and those fighters came and

9 stayed with us and the civilians were sent to Ilijas and Vogosca. And

10 thanks to those fighters the lines were shorter, some areas fell under the

11 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and then there were the arms,

12 weapons that arrived. I don't know that that had anything to do with

13 General Milosevic. It was just war. We had our children behind our back.

14 We had to fortify and this saved our necks on the 15th of June, 1995.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mm-hm. You talked about the

16 weapons that arrived. Well, can you explain a little bit more, can you

17 expand on this?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I already said that several

19 tanks came. Up until then, I would see only one tank but then there were

20 five tanks that I would see, there were more Howitzers and mortars. This

21 is what I was able to notice.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mm-hm. Thank you very much,

23 Witness.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Unless you're only going to ask one question in

25 re-examination, or ... are you going to re-examine at all, Mr. Tapuskovic?

Page 7944

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just need a few

2 minutes. I will be finished very quickly, after the break. I just need a

3 few minutes.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm just wondering since technically

6 my cross-examination is not finished whether -- whether Mr. Tapuskovic

7 should commence his re-examination until I have completed my cross.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: In that case, the question would be raised to the

9 Defence team if it was possible to have a look at the testimony given to

10 you by Witness AD, so that we could perhaps finish this witness today.

11 That is not possible, okay. So then it will have to be postponed

12 until tomorrow.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: But, Mr. Sachdeva, what additional questions

15 would you have arising out of the testimony of Witness AD, which you

16 already have?

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I -- as I think I told Your Honours,

18 that there were -- if we're going discuss the evidence, can we move into

19 private session, please.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

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14 [Open Session]


16 Q. Sir, sometime ago we were talking about the market at Breza, you

17 remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that the market was an open-air market?

20 A. I said that during the war I never went to Breza. I don't know

21 whether it was an open-air market or something that had a roof.

22 In any case, it was in the hands of the army of BiH.

23 Q. Well, during -- when there was no war, it was not in the hands of

24 the ABiH, was it?

25 A. Yes, it was in the then beautiful Yugoslavia. When I used to go

Page 7947

1 there, then I could say that it was a flea market. As to whether it

2 changed during the war, I don't know.

3 Q. So you did used to go to the market before the war?

4 A. Not to the flea market, but I would pass through Breza. I know

5 there was a market there. There is not a single village even the smallest

6 one in Bosnia without a market.

7 Q. Very well, sir. You know that there was a market, and therefore,

8 you know that the market was was an open-air market, wasn't it? And I'm

9 talking about before the war when you were there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that market, as I understand it, sold fruits and vegetables

12 and other such provisions. Isn't that right?

13 A. Yes. This is what you usually see in our markets.

14 Q. And just tell me if I'm correct, that the population of Breza was

15 roughly 4.000 people?

16 A. I'm not sure how many people lived there.

17 Q. But Breza was a town, was it not? It was not a village, was it?

18 A. Yes. Breza used to be a mining town, but I don't know how many

19 people resided there.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I ask to move into private

21 session.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7948











11 Pages 7948-7961 redacted. Private session.















Page 7962

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So can you please answer the question that I put to you.

9 A. Yes, I was going to answer, we probably received fresh forces with

10 the fall of our positions around Vares, so the front line was shortened.

11 So then we received fresh troops and then there were some description

12 changes there so that my company was renamed the Romanija Company.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

15 this witness.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Witness, your evidence has not been

17 concluded. You will return tomorrow morning for further examination.

18 In the meantime, you are not to discuss your evidence with

19 anybody. Do you understand that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may now leave.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the next witness?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is Witness T-37.

Page 7963

1 He has protective measures, pseudonym and image distortion. This is

2 Witness T-37.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

9 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

12 show this document, DD00-3982, to the witness for him to identify himself

13 and then we can move back into private session.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just inquire from him whether the name on the

15 document is his, but he mustn't reveal his name.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. We did not do that so

17 far.

18 Q. Witness, can you just please tell us whether the name that you see

19 written there is your name?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show this to the

22 Chamber and to the Prosecution.

23 The document under this number, can it please be given an exhibit

24 number and can it be admitted under seal?


Page 7964

1 THE REGISTRAR: As D291, under seal, Your Honours.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we move into private

3 session, in order to find out the witness's particulars.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7965











11 Pages 7965-7977 redacted. Private session.















Page 7978

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going to move to a

15 different topic now, different period.

16 Q. But can you please explain to the Judges, these two lines that you

17 see on the map, the yellow and the red lines. How did this actually look

18 like on the ground? How were -- far were the trenches apart in particular

19 locations?

20 A. Since I was an eye-witness of all of those events, the yellow line

21 represents the positions of the BiH army. And then from the 8th of

22 December they were at all of the elevations that I mentioned, 850, 830 and

23 750. We were below those positions of theirs and in some places where the

24 configuration of the terrain permitted, we were some 50 metres apart. And

25 in some places we were even closer, lines were only 30 metres apart.

Page 7979

1 Q. And what was the average situation?

2 A. Well, on average, it was about 30 metres apart.

3 Q. Can you please explain to the Judges this, then. What did you

4 have in terms of weapons when you were in the trenches?

5 A. We had infantry weapons, automatic and semi-automatic weapons when

6 we were in the trenches because nothing else could be used from there

7 because the front line was so close that nothing else could be used other

8 than infantry weapons.

9 Q. When the conflict broke out and the lines were established, the

10 ones that we're talking about, did you notice in the area of

11 responsibility of your brigade any other weapons? You said what you had

12 in your trenches. Now we're talking about the AOR of your brigade. Were

13 there any different weapons there, other than infantry weapons, at that

14 time?

15 A. When the intensity of the fighting increased from the 10th of June

16 until the 8th of December, we were exposed to attacks on a daily basis and

17 of course we had support for us fighters. These were small calibre

18 mortars from 60 and 82-millimetres, so those were the weapons that were

19 used, that we fired from.

20 Q. Did you participate in any other actions, other than being in

21 the trenches and in view of the situation were you in a position to

22 participate in any other actions?

23 A. I did not take part in any other actions. I didn't go anywhere.

24 I had a sort of plan, a schedule, according to which I would go to the

25 trenches. After the shift was over, after two, three, or five days, I

Page 7980

1 would go home for a day or two. I would spend time with my family, have a

2 bath and so on, and then I would return again. I did not go anywhere from

3 the trenches.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll take the break now.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] As you can see the Presiding Judge

8 has been prevented from attending. I wish to proceed according to Rules

9 of Procedure and Evidence. We're going to continue our session.

10 Mr. Tapuskovic has the floor.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [No interpretation] [Interpretation]

12 Thank you, Your Honours. I will pick up where I left it off

13 before the break.

14 Q. Witness, during your testimony you told us what you could see from

15 the positions of your battalion. Apart from the Zuc elevation and hill

16 that you used to live on, could you see certain locations to your left and

17 to your right from your trench positions?

18 A. From the trench positions, we couldn't see anything, not a single

19 part of the city of Sarajevo.

20 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked you what was it that you could

21 see. You could see the Zuc elevation, because you were just below it.

22 How about some other elevations close to Zuc?

23 A. We didn't see anything. We could only see ABiH positions.

24 Q. You said at Zuc hill, but were there any elevations to your left

25 or right?

Page 7981

1 A. To the left-hand side and to the right-hand side, there were also

2 combat lines, our lines.

3 Q. You indicated Sokolje hill a little while ago when you saw the

4 photograph. Who held positions there, and were you able to see that from

5 your trenches?

6 A. From our trenches, we were unable to see Sokolje hill, since we

7 were below it.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us this: Do you know what happened with

9 the heavy weaponry in 1994, and, if so, what?

10 A. Regarding the heavy weaponry, in 1994, an agreement was signed to

11 pull out all heavy artillery pieces on the VRS side beyond the

12 20-kilometre zone, looking from Sarajevo.

13 Q. In the period that followed, did you have any heavy artillery

14 support during combat activities?

15 A. Once the heavy pieces had been withdrawn beyond the 20-kilometre

16 zone, there were no major activities. It was only that the civilians were

17 somewhat panicky because of the loss of support those pieces offered.

18 People were afraid of any forthcoming Muslim offensive, fearing that they

19 would be made to leave their homes.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Can you -- [No interpretation]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but in the

22 spring of 1994. I was a plain trench soldier. I didn't have much to do

23 with that. I don't know any details or dates.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mm-hm. Thank you very much.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic, you have the floor.

Page 7982

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, do you know when General Dragomir Milosevic was appointed

3 commander of the SRK?

4 A. I think that Mr. Dragomir Milosevic was appointed commander of the

5 SRK in early August 1994.

6 Q. As of that moment, having in mind your positions close to Vogosca

7 in the trenches there, can you tell us what sort of military activities

8 were there? Were there any activities in place and what was their nature?

9 A. After that, the intensity was reduced, the intensity of fighting,

10 and occasionally there was fighting further away from Sarajevo. However,

11 at the positions we were, there was no major combat until the 15th of

12 June, 1995, when there was another major offensive.

13 Q. The entire period between August until June, the situation was, as

14 you described it, at your positions, from August 1994 and, as you said,

15 what was the month you mentioned in 1995? I think you said June.

16 A. The 15th of June, mid-June.

17 Q. If I understood correctly, the entire period close to Vogosca

18 where you were, the period was pretty much the same?

19 A. Yes. Save for the occasional provocations which are unimportant.

20 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what happened on the 15th of June,

21 and can you describe it for us?

22 A. On the 15th of June, earlier in the morning, a large Muslim or

23 ABiH offensive was launched in that part of the theatre, or rather in the

24 entire Sarajevo theatre. It was of very high intensity and lasted for

25 about a fortnight. The intensity was the greatest during that period.

Page 7983

1 However, after that it subsided somewhat when -- and towards end of June

2 it withered away all together.

3 Q. What was happening with the civilians in the area?

4 A. Many soldiers were killed at that time as well as civilians,

5 because they were targeting roads used by the army of Republika Srpska.

6 With your permission, I wanted to say that a neighbour of mine, a

7 civilian, was killed, an elderly person, his name was Savo Zikovic. He

8 was killed by a shell that landed in front of his house. In any case,

9 both fighters and civilians died at that time.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

12 this witness.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 Prosecution for cross-examination -- or the re-examination.

15 MS. EDGERTON: For cross-examination, in fact. And Your Honours,

16 I have no questions to ask of this witness. I have no cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. I suppose that in such

18 a case there are no questions in re-examination.

19 So, Witness, the Chamber thanks you for coming to testify before

20 this Tribunal. I would like to wish you a safe return home and good luck.

21 Thank you very much.

22 You may dispose now.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have your

Page 7984

1 next witness?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is T-26. He

3 enjoys no protective measures. A member of our team went to check whether

4 the witness is indeed in the building.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact because the previous

6 witness took less time than expected. So we have to wait a few minutes to

7 see what will follow.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Mindua,

9 according to our estimate, this should be a short witness as well. I

10 believe we won't need more than half an hour as foreseen. Unless, by

11 this, you have allowed us a few additional minutes to examine the witness.

12 The name is Kosta Kosovic, witness T-26.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I would

16 just like it make sure that you can hear in your language what I am

17 telling. If that's the case, please tell us, Yes, I understand.

18 Very well. According to the procedure, I'm going to ask to you

19 make a solemn declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may sit

25 down, Witness.

Page 7985

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Once again, according to different

3 jurisdictions in some jurisdictions the Presiding Judge is the one asking

4 questions to establish the identity of the witness, but since we are in a

5 different jurisdiction I would like to call on the Defence to proceed to

6 the identification of the witness.

7 Mr. Tapuskovic, you have the floor. And I would just like to

8 bring to your attention that the witness does not have any special

9 protective measures and if that is the case indeed, I would like to ask

10 the usher to raise the curtain.

11 Mr. Tapuskovic, you have the floor.

12 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I would kindly ask the witness, T-26, to introduce himself. He

15 can start by stating his first and last name?

16 A. My name is Kosta Kosovic.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, you were born on the 19th of August, 1933?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to move closer

20 to the microphones, thank you.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Please wait for the transcript to stop before you begin your

23 answer.

24 You were born in a place called Gacko in Bosnia-Herzegovina. You

25 completed your elementary and secondary education in Gacko as well?

Page 7986

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Please wait for my question to be recorded in its entirety and

3 once the cursor has stopped, then begin your answers.

4 You completed law school in Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Until 1986, you worked in the Sarajevo police?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, so as to avoid any problems further on, I am asking you

9 not to begin answering until the cursor has stopped. Then begin your

10 answer.

11 That same year, to continue, you were retired?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were 59 years of age when the conflict broke out in Sarajevo.

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. You used to live in the part of Sarajevo called Alipasino Polje at

16 Zavnobih square, building number 30, the 7th floor.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph. Perhaps on it you can indicate

19 approximately where the building you used to live in at Alipasino Polje is

20 when the conflict broke out.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a map shown.

22 It is 2862; it is a 65 ter document.

23 Q. Please, can you tell us approximately where your building was, the

24 building where you resided in that year at the moment when the conflict

25 broke out. And can you please mark that building with the pen that the

Page 7987

1 usher is going to give you.

2 A. I resided in the so-called B phase of Alipasin field, Alipasino

3 Polje. In the B phase of Alipasino Polje, there was a square, the

4 so-called Zavnobih square. The B phase of Alipasino Polje is behind or

5 beyond these buildings.

6 Q. Can you put a circle around that place. Yes, make a circle?

7 A. These are the buildings, the high-rise buildings and my building

8 is beyond this complex. You can't see it because it is behind these

9 buildings.

10 Q. Could you please mark the circle that you have just -- that

11 you have just drawn by letter K?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And the line that you have just drawn, can you mark that by

14 putting a letter S next to it.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. And now, please, can you explain to the Trial Chamber

17 what happened at the beginning of 1992, in the neighbourhood where you

18 resided?

19 A. Immediately before the war I had a lot of health problems. That's

20 why I was hospitalised for three months. When I was hospitalised the

21 situation was still normally that neighbourhood, as well as, in the entire

22 town of Sarajevo. When I returned three months later, I was surprised.

23 The surprise that I --

24 Q. Just a moment, please. Before you continue, tell us when you were

25 discharged. You had spent three months in the hospital. Can you tell us

Page 7988

1 when you were discharged, when you returned to your neighbourhood, and

2 then you can continue.

3 A. I returned from the hospital --

4 Q. Please wait.

5 A. I apologise.

6 Q. We're not going to get anywhere if I don't take this into

7 account. Okay, you can go on now and answer.

8 A. I returned from the hospital towards the end of March 1992. And

9 in my town, I found a very unpleasant situation, a lot of troops, but it

10 those were not the same troops that existed before the war. Those were

11 the Green Berets, the Patriotic League, the police officer wearing black

12 uniforms and people like that.

13 Both the army and the police to my great surprise, I tried to get

14 in touch with them to see what that was all about but they were all very

15 impertinent to me. There answer was --

16 Q. Thank you very much. What I would like to know is what you

17 experienced yourself. What happened to the building where you resided in

18 Alipasino Polje, in the square, in that building on the floor in the

19 apartment where you resided?

20 A. A person came between the moment I returned to the moment in

21 question, there was an awkward period of time again. I experienced a

22 shock in my building. One day a meeting of all the residents was called

23 in the hallway in order to discuss a problem that had arisen. When the

24 residents came to the hallway I saw only a few of them, and they were all

25 Serbs. There were no Muslims, there were no Croats among them. I

Page 7989

1 inquired, I asked a man who had organised the meeting whose name was

2 Jasmin Erovic [phoen] what was the meaning of all this and where everybody

3 else was. He answered, we don't need anybody else. We only need Serbs

4 here. I didn't understand that reply. Then he continued and he drew our

5 attention to the fact that in our apartments in our houses there were --

6 Q. Thank you very much, please. Witness, we don't have the time for

7 all these details.

8 What happened after that meeting? What happened after the meeting

9 what happened to you and the people who were there?

10 A. I would like to tell you what the chairperson of the meeting told

11 us. He told us that no Serb symbols had to be found in the apartment.

12 And when I asked him what that referred to, he answered, nothing of

13 cultural significance, no book in the Cyrillic script, no Serb arts.

14 That's what he told me.

15 Q. Sir, I understand your need to say this; however, I believe that

16 we should talk about some more relevant things, the things that are of

17 significance for the work of this Tribunal. This is significant, of

18 course, but I would like to know what happened to you as people who

19 attended that meeting?

20 A. After that meeting, immediately after the meeting, all of us

21 Serbs, males, were gathered and taken to the prison. This was not a

22 proper prison. This was actually cellars of residential buildings. The

23 conditions were very poor there. We were taken to those cellars and we

24 spent a whole night there and people were being taken to the cellars and

25 taken away from them.

Page 7990

1 After that, when there were quite a number of us there, those

2 major torture, we suffered major torture. They started beating us,

3 cursing us, insulting us. Some soldiers and policemen did that.

4 In any case, their behaviour was anything but fair. I suffered a

5 beating, as a result of which I -- I fell down on the floor, which was

6 made of concrete which was cold. There was some pipes, sewage pipes

7 through -- going through that cellar and filthy water was dripping all

8 over us and this lasted for 31 days.

9 Q. Sir, did anybody suffer tragic consequences as a result of the

10 sufferings that you also experienced?

11 A. Yes. This is a huge story and I'm sure that I wouldn't be able to

12 tell it in a few days. But I'm trying -- I'll try and make it short and

13 tell you just what it is this Trial Chamber is interested.

14 A middle-aged man entered the cellar and sat down next to me. He

15 started crying immediately and wailing. I showed him the bruises on my

16 face and on my body and I told him this too shall pass. You have to be

17 quiet, but he told me I'm going to be killed right now. I didn't believe

18 him. I tried to comfort him. However, this did come true that same day.

19 The head of the prison whose name was Senad Dzananovic entered our

20 prison. On his hands had white ankle protection when he was beating

21 people, this protected his ankles. And he called this man whose name was

22 Novica, Novica Draskovic, he called him and told him come forward. Novica

23 came forward and this man beat him heavily and this person died right in

24 front of our eyes from his beating.

25 Q. Did this happen to everybody? How many of you were there?

Page 7991

1 A. There was some 25 of us prisoners in that cellar and everybody

2 suffered the same or similar things. Unfortunately -- fortunately, we did

3 not all die. For example, one night I was beaten until I lost

4 consciousness and I fell on the floor.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I believe that this is enough for the Judges

6 to understand what you are talking about.

7 Tell me, how did you manage to survive all this without any major

8 consequences?

9 A. I really don't know that myself. I don't know how I survived, how

10 I was able to leave that place. I only know that they had planned to kill

11 me as well. But they didn't kill me on that day, because the day before

12 they intended to kill somebody they would announce that. They officially

13 called me the old dog. And then a guard told me, old dog, tomorrow, you

14 will be executed, and I knew what that meant.

15 However, what happened was this. As a matter of fact, I expected

16 that there would be execution.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

18 Mr. Sachdeva.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honour, with respect to the

20 witness, I'm just wondering as to the relevance to the charges against the

21 accused of this testimony.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have

23 anything to say in reply to this objection?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to say what I said the

25 other day. The witness is going to talk about relevant things but I

Page 7992

1 believe that this witness whose testimony is not going to be very long

2 also has to speak about the terror that people suffered in Sarajevo from

3 the very beginning of the war in the way he is describing for us now.

4 He is going to move on to more relevant things. I explained this

5 a few days ago when the Chamber was working in a full composition. I

6 explained that when we're talking about the suffering of that doctor. I

7 can repeat the same thing today. This witness is going to move on to more

8 relevant things. He is going to tell you how he left the prison and what

9 relevant things he saw that had to do with the hostilities that broke out

10 that month, when he left the prison.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. We will take this as a

12 sort of an introduction and that you will now go to the relevant points

13 linked to the indictment.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, you have said enough about these things. Now I would

16 like to ask you to tell us how you left the cellar. And then I will ask

17 you about your other experiences.

18 A. I believe that I -- I apologise.

19 I believe that UNPROFOR helped me to leave that place. UNPROFOR

20 had learned about our whereabouts and then I was released.

21 Q. And now could you please tell us what happened in the subsequent

22 period of some seven or eight months after that event?

23 A. When I arrived home, I have to skip a rather long period of time,

24 and the torture that had been happening during that time.

25 When I arrived home, I was put in house prison I was not allowed

Page 7993

1 to move anywhere. There were guards in front of my front door on the 7th

2 floor. They were guarding me.

3 Q. Very well. And during the eight-month period, and further on,

4 what could you observe on the streets through the windows of your

5 apartment? Did you occasionally go out, and if you did, what could you

6 observe, what kind of movements did you observe or combat activities? Did

7 you observe anything?

8 A. Yes. The thing that was striking was a cannon shots in front of

9 my building below my windows. I was able to establish that there was a

10 huge lorry carrying a gun. I don't know what kind of a gun it was,

11 because I'm not familiar with the weaponry. But there was a gun with a

12 barrel and there was staff around the gun and that gun was frequently

13 moved from one place to another. For example, the cannon would be moved

14 to a hallway of a building, it would fire seven or eight or ten shells and

15 then the lorry's engine would be turned on the cannon would be moved to

16 another place. And then the cannon would be placed somewhere else and

17 again fired a few shells. And this repeated on and on.

18 Q. Was there any fire response from the other side?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you describe that?

21 A. The other side also opened artillery fire. I don't know whether

22 those were all guns or cannons but these shells were falling around the

23 houses, around the residential blocks that were there. Some shell would

24 also hit a house. I was observing from the 7th floor of my building, from

25 my apartment. I could see a number of the houses that you can see in this

Page 7994

1 photo.

2 Q. Please, can you stop here. We have lost the markings from the

3 photo. I don't know whether the markings are still there, whether they

4 have been preserved.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, what happened to the

6 markings?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if I may, unfortunately, we lost the

8 series of markings made by the witness, and if counsel could kindly have

9 the witness remark the map, we could save them then.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, you will have

11 to ask the witness to make new markings, please, on this picture.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Sir, could you repeat what you did a while ago. Could you repeat

14 the same markings.

15 Letter K next to the circle. Letter S next to the line.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Can you show the Judges where this gun was being sheltered in a

18 hallway. Can you show the place for the Judges, where was that?

19 A. That was -- between my building at number 30, and a block of

20 building next to my building; this is a larger area, some four metres

21 high. This is a passage between the buildings, a passenger pathway, and

22 this is where that cannon -- gun most often sheltered and this is where it

23 was firing from, between these two buildings here. Between this block

24 that I marked --

25 Q. Can you put an arrow next to that place.

Page 7995

1 A. The gun fired from behind these buildings, because there is a

2 place here where this block stops and there is a free space of some 50

3 metres from there, it fired on Nedzarici village where the Serb army was,

4 all the way to Ilidza. This whole area was inhabited by the Serbs at the

5 time.

6 Q. Did you observe any other activities in addition to the shelling

7 by that gun that moved from one place to another? Did you notice any

8 other fire activity?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please wait for the interpretation to be over.

11 A. I apologise.

12 I noticed that below this block of buildings early in the morning,

13 particularly in the morning, at dawn, sharpshooters would gather there.

14 Five, seven, or ten of them, depending on the day. They would gather

15 there. They would probably be given their tasks and then they would be

16 deployed on their respective lines.

17 Q. When you say lines, what do you mean? Where were they deployed?

18 A. They would be deployed along this line behind these buildings or

19 in the buildings. By and large they were hidden, I could not see a single

20 shot being fired because they were concealed from the view. They were

21 very good at what they did. I even had an occasion to see -- to hear the

22 shouts and crying when they managed to hit a target.

23 Q. Given what you experienced in the cellar, did you while you were

24 still there in the area of responsibility of the BiH army, were you

25 interviewed or investigated by an institution of the BiH army or the state

Page 7996

1 authorities in that part of Sarajevo which was under the control of the

2 BiH army?

3 A. Yes. In February 1994, I was summoned to report to the military

4 court of the BiH army in the Viktor Bubanj barracks. They brought people

5 like Dzananovic, Kimun and Ramiz and others who perpetrated crimes. When

6 I entered court, the judge took my name and asked me whether I knew these

7 people who were sitting there. And I told him the truth. I told him that

8 I knew all of them. I told them is a Senad Dzananovic, this is Adnan

9 Gadza also known as Kimun and this is Ramiz Luta [phoen].

10 He asked me then what I had to say about them. As soon as I saw

11 them I lost the peace of mind, but I mastered the strength to tell the

12 judge that these two, Dzananovic and Adnan Gadza [phoen], during the 31

13 days that I spent in the cellar beat me every day. Not only me but

14 everybody else as well.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I noticed on the

17 sheet that I have that the examination-in-chief should take 30 minutes and

18 you have already spent 28 minutes of that examination-in-chief. So

19 theoreticically, you would have two more minutes left. I would like to

20 know how much more time do you need to finish your examination-in-chief

21 with respect to this witness.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will use that time to discuss a

23 couple of issues. First the witness can tell us whether there were any

24 proceedings and what happened with those people and perhaps he can also

25 tell us what happened with him once he left the area. I was about to

Page 7997

1 finish. However, I wanted to ask for your indulgence since we completed

2 the previous witness early to allow me a few additional minutes, and I

3 will try to wrap up.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Please resume.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a trial for all three of

6 them. Since I told that those two were criminals and murders, and I said

7 that I had no proof of Ramiz's conduct, and I said that I wouldn't tell

8 anything I wasn't sure of. However, the initial two were tried but were

9 declared unfit for trial and of bad mental health and they were released.

10 I think they are free now.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last answer,

12 please.

13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that I am

15 at fault again, because the witness's last answer was not entered in the

16 transcript.

17 Q. Can you repeat what you said. What happened after the trial. You

18 said they were declared unfit and released. Did you have occasion to meet

19 them subsequently?

20 A. They continued their bloody rampage, if I may call it that. They

21 were members of the police that wielded power in that part of Sarajevo at

22 that time. They continued doing whatever they did to me before that and

23 they are still free.

24 Q. Thank you. When did you manage to get out of the area controlled

25 by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 7998

1 A. I left on the 28th of May, 1994.

2 Q. The statement you gave to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina Court,

3 did you repeat it before any other body in the territory that was under

4 the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and Republika Srpska?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to present a

7 document that we received from the Prosecutor. It is DD00-4173, and I

8 will conclude with that.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I'm noticing that

10 your photograph is not filed. Aren't you going to ask for this picture to

11 be filed into evidence?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you,

13 Judge Mindua. It has to be done, and I wish to tender it as a Defence

14 exhibit before we move on to the next document. I omitted to do that.

15 Therefore, I would kindly ask that this photograph be admitted as a

16 Defence exhibit. I've already said that this is a 65 ter document --

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. The picture is filed.

18 Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be admitted as D294.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have DD00-4173

21 displayed. The document was received from the Prosecutor. It has been

22 translated in full into English, and I wanted to focus on a couple of

23 things in the document.

24 Perhaps the witness can confirm those few things, and I will thus

25 conclude my examination-in-chief.

Page 7999

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So we're still waiting for document

2 DD00-4173.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is a 65 ter document. No, I'm

4 wrong. It is the number I had specified.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps I can assist. The -- the 65 ter number is

7 03404. At least that's what's coming up on my e-court.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Registrar?

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. We've got the document

11 on the screen now, Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, does this document have anything to do with you? Please

14 have a look at the document and try to focus on paragraph 4. It states

15 something you have allegedly stated. Please have a look at who drafted

16 the document, look at the date, and tell us whether this refers to you?

17 A. Yes, it does. This was drafted on the 29th of May, 1994. Once I

18 had left the Muslim part of Sarajevo and went to the Serb-held part, I

19 have to apologise, though, because it is very difficult for me to read. I

20 think it says: "Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, Intelligence and Security

21 Affairs Department."

22 It's very difficult for me to read. I can't.

23 Q. Can we please zoom in on the fourth paragraph.

24 Is this a description of events in the prison concerning the men

25 you mentioned?

Page 8000

1 A. Absolutely so, yes.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't believe

3 there's any reason to read this into the transcript and this corroborates

4 the witness's testimony concerning his time spent in gaol in that cellar.

5 I wish to tender this, and I would like to conclude my

6 examination-in-chief with this document.

7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. What paragraph precisely are

8 you talking about?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has

10 difficulties reading, by your leave, I might read out that portion.

11 There's -- there are only a few sentences there.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is the fourth

14 paragraph where it says: "The source," this being Mr. Kosovic. Was

15 eye-witness to the commission of crime by Dzananovic together with

16 Milenko Visnjevac who is now in Ilidza (Kosovic will provide a written

17 statement after his recovery). Kosovic has heard that Senad Dzananovic

18 killed about 100 Serbs together with the Adnan Gadza. What is important

19 is the part the witness had mentioned concerining Draskovic murder. This

20 document reflects that since it mentions Draskovic in the preceding

21 paragraphs.

22 The witness has confirmed that this is the statement given by him

23 on the 28th of May, 1994 and he repeated it to the judges in the

24 proceedings conducted in the part of Sarajevo that was under the control

25 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 8001

1 I wish to tender this as a Defence exhibit, this document.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. It is being received

3 and tendered.

4 Mr. Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: D295, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

8 have no more questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.

10 Tapuskovic.

11 Now we give the floor to the Prosecutor for the cross-examination.

12 We've got five minutes left and we true to use them at best.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kosovic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. My name is Manoj Sachdeva and I'm a lawyer for the Prosecution and

18 I'm going to ask you a few questions today.

19 May I just confirm to start off, you did leave Alipasino Polje, in

20 other words, you left the territory controlled by the ABiH on the 28th of

21 May, 1994?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And after that date, you did not return to Alipasino Polje. Is

24 that right -- is that right?

25 A. Right. Not during the war, but when the war finished I did

Page 8002

1 return.

2 Q. And so from the 28th of May, 1994, through to the end of the

3 conflict in 1995, you obviously are not in a position to -- to know what

4 went on in Alipasino Polje, are you?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. May I -- I just want to go back to the photograph that you marked

7 earlier on.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: If we could have Defence exhibit 294 brought up,

9 please.

10 Q. Sir, do you see the photograph on your screen?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Now, the -- the area of flats that you marked, in other words,

13 where your flat was located, there were during the time you were there,

14 there were civilians that lived in those flats. Isn't that right?

15 A. It is right.

16 Q. And, in other words, we're talking about women, children, elderly

17 persons. That's right, isn't it?

18 A. That is right, yes.

19 Q. Now you see where you have drawn the red line. Do you see that

20 there, sir?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And on the photograph, if we -- if you look below that red line,

23 you'll see another complex of apartment blocks. Do you see where I'm

24 referring to?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 8003

1 Q. And it's also right that in those apartment blocks there were also

2 civilians that lived there. Isn't that right?

3 A. Yes, it is right.

4 Q. Perhaps I could -- perhaps I could ask you to -- to mark those--

5 those flats, if you don't mind.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps the court usher can ...

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, are you referring to these

8 flats here, this block of flats?


10 Q. You see where the red line is, sir.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you see beneath the red line there are initially there are

13 four sets of apartment blocks. Do you see those four sets, two on the

14 left-hand side of the picture and two on the right-hand side of the

15 picture?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. If you could please put a circle around those four flats that

18 would be -- that would be great. Thank you.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 Now --

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, perhaps -- perhaps it's time to

23 break. And could we -- I tender the photograph, Mr. President, with your

24 leave.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. And we want to make

Page 8004

1 sure that the markings won't disappear. It is being tendered.

2 Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit that as P812.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 All right. I can see now that it is a quarter to 2.00. It's time

6 to adjourn, and I would like all the parties to be back here at 9.00.

7 The sitting is adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

10 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.