1 Thursday, 19 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have one or two matters to deal with before we
6 continue with the evidence.
7 Mr. Tapuskovic, I'm to bring to your attention the fact that
8 translations of two of your expert reports has not yet been provided by
9 the time that you indicated they would be provided. That's Mr. Stamenov,
10 the 16th of July, and Mr. Garovic, the 18th of July. Do you have any
11 comments on that?
12 Ms. Isailovic.
13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our assistant
14 just told us that we had received the document yesterday. We had a lot of
15 work, but -- and I'm very sorry for being late, but we are preparing a new
16 motion, and we will disclose all the translation of the reports by
17 tomorrow. I really apologise to my -- to the parties, but we received
18 them yesterday, and we didn't have enough time to prepare the
19 notification, but we will do it tomorrow morning.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes, because the evidence of those
21 witnesses will be taken in the one week in which we are sitting in August.
22 May we move into private session.
23 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you have any matter to raise, Mr. Waespi, or
13 is it Mr. Tapuskovic?
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be very brief.
15 Thank you for allowing me to address you quite briefly.
16 Yesterday, we received 54 documents of the United Nations in
17 accordance with Rule 66 and 68. These were the documents in relation to
18 which a waiver was obtained within the spirit of Rule 70. This is the
19 material we received yesterday.
20 We are now in a situation where we do not know how to proceed with
21 a view to using the material for our benefit, because this is not subject
22 to disclosure. The material we simply scanned. We didn't have time to go
23 through them thoroughly. And these are the United Nations documents in
24 respect of which a waiver was obtained, which can therefore be used.
25 I seek your guidance. We have to find a way to have these
1 documents admitted into evidence. We are nearing the end of the case, and
2 I simply do not know who to introduce the documents through. Perhaps
3 through Mr. Demurenko. Possibly he may not know anything about them.
4 This is, at any rate, a very delicate issue of crucial importance for the
5 case. These were the documents to which we were barred access before, and
6 we received them yesterday.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi?
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.
10 These documents are not related to Mr. Demurenko. They are the fruits of
11 a search we made a couple of months ago into what we believe these Rule
12 66(B) and perhaps 68 from the Defence perspective in relation to what's
13 commonly known as suffering, the presence of Bosnian irregulars like Caco
14 and other people, which we understand is the Defence case. And we don't
15 believe they are relevant for this case, but we understand that it's
16 important for the Defence to have them.
17 If the Defence feels that documents are relevant for their case,
18 these are genuine UN, usually UNPROFOR, documents which speak for
19 themselves, we certainly have no objections if they're relevant to them
20 coming in as self-propelled documents without any tendering witness. We
21 certainly have no problem with that.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wasn't in fact
24 aiming at anything else but this, and I wish to thank my learned friend
25 Mr. Waespi. I was of the same opinion. When we looked at the documents,
1 we realised that they were very significant for the Defence and are
2 self-evident. We deemed it very important that the Chamber grant leave
3 for their admission into evidence, which we hope that the Chamber will do
4 having heard our submissions.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll give you a decision later today.
6 Let the witness be brought in.
7 Mr. Tapuskovic, of course we would want to see the documents. How
8 do we see them? Are they in the electronic system?
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. On a CD.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
11 MR. WAESPI: Which is different. We disclosed them on a CD to the
12 Defence anticipating that if they want to use one or two, because clearly
13 in our view they are not relevant, but who am I to tell what's relevant
14 for the Defence. So if the Defence feels some are relevant, perhaps 54 of
15 them, they obviously have the obligation to put it into the e-court
16 system, and then they can be -- but Mr. President, we are happy to send
17 you the CD or even hard copies of these 54 documents so you can peruse
18 them and for your decision to admit them or not.
19 We certainly would have an opinion on the relevancy of these
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: They must be relevant -- they must be relevant to
22 the case, not relevant to the Defence case or relevant to the Prosecution
23 case. They must be relevant to the case. I don't know of the concept of
24 relevance to a particular party's case.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 WITNESS: WITNESS T-41 [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we'll proceed that way.
4 MR. WAESPI: Just on this, Mr. President. Of course --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have the CD copy.
6 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We will forward it to you. Of course this is
7 disclosure, and disclosure under Rule 66(B) means whatever is -- I think
8 the term is material for the Defence, and by now we know pretty much
9 what's material for the Defence. So that's our standard for disclosure.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand.
11 Now, Mr. Sachdeva -- Mr. Sachdeva, you see this? It comes from
12 the court deputy. It reminds me that you have used 1 hour and 17 minutes
13 of 1 hour and 25 minutes allotted. You have one hour left.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to you
15 and Your Honours.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness T-41. I trust you rested well last night.
18 A. Good afternoon. Yes, thank you.
19 Q. Now, yesterday when we closed -- or before we closed, I was
20 showing you a video clip of -- of some positions on the Pale-Lukavica
21 Road. You remember that clip, sir?
22 A. Yes, I remember that.
23 Q. And I'm just going to ask for that clip -- I'm just going to ask
24 for that clip to be brought up.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness
2 answered this question twice. What I wish to highlight is the very
3 question put by Mr. Sachdeva. The positions on the Pale, et cetera, road,
4 not once did the witness state that he had seen positions on the road, and
5 the question as such was put already twice. I am referring to the
7 Since my learned friend Sachdeva has now repeated once again these
8 were positions on the road, can he please indicate on the photograph where
9 does it show that the positions were on the road -- or, rather, I meant on
10 this video clip.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm waiting to hear the question. The question
12 hasn't been put yet. What is the question you wish to put, Mr. Sachdeva?
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I need to wait for the clip to be
14 shown, but if I might just briefly respond to --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us see the clip.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. SACHDEVA:
18 Q. Witness, I just want to -- you have on your screen there, you have
19 a picture of a rifle. You see that, don't you, sir?
20 A. Yes, I see a weapon of a sort.
21 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, that the -- the contraption that
22 is fitted on top of the rifle is, I would suggest to you, a contraption
23 that facilitates -- facilitates enhanced viewing. In other words, it is
24 an optical sight. Would you agree with that, sir?
25 A. I don't know that. I never looked through any such item. I can
1 see that this is a rifle, but I never had this device in my hands to be
2 100 per cent sure of what it is.
3 Q. I appreciate that you may not be 100 per cent sure, but I'm just
4 suggesting to you, sir, that that contraption that is on top of the rifle
5 is most probably an optical sight to facilitate an enhanced view. Would
6 you agree with that, sir?
7 A. I don't know. I can't accept that before I see what it looks like
8 in reality or on a much better image.
9 Q. Sir, you didn't see the rifle grenades that were, as you said,
10 fired by the ABiH, did you?
11 A. I only saw parts of the projectile. Sometime when there was fire
12 going on I saw parts of the grenades that did not explode. I think I saw
13 a Maljutka that -- at least it was explained to me that this is what it
14 was. It had some wiring on it.
15 Q. Yes. I'm not asking you about what came from the weapon or the
16 projectiles, but you never saw the rifle grenade weapon that you said was
17 fired by the ABiH. You never saw that weapon allegedly fired by the ABiH,
18 did you?
19 A. I didn't see that, nor could I. I only saw the consequences of
20 it. I saw a shell falling, and it could only have come from the ABH
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the Prosecution moves to tender
23 this -- this clip into evidence.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As P910, Your Honours.
1 MR. SACHDEVA:
2 Q. Now, sir, yesterday in answers to questions by Counsel Tapuskovic
3 you said that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps press centre was established in
4 December 1992; is that right?
5 A. In December of 1992.
6 Q. And I take it that you were working at this centre throughout the
7 conflict up until November 1995?
8 A. Yes. I worked at the press centre in the period mentioned.
9 Q. And you said that the -- the office or the room that -- where the
10 press centre was located was in the same building at Lukavica where,
11 firstly, General Galic and thereafter General Milosevic had their offices;
12 is that right?
13 A. Yes. Initially, the press centre was on the ground floor right
14 next to the entrance. The journalists went there. I didn't move much. I
15 only went to the kitchen there. Later on the press centre was relocated
16 to a different part of the building -- or, rather, these are two buildings
17 that are very close to each other.
18 Q. When the press centre was in the ground floor and then when it
19 moved, it was in the same building as the office of General Milosevic; is
20 that right?
21 A. It wasn't in the same building, but it was very close by.
22 Q. Well, yesterday you told Mr. Tapuskovic, you told the Court that
23 when the press centre was in the ground floor of the building that on the
24 next floor, the next floor above the ground floor was where General
25 Milosevic had his office, or General Galic; is that right?
1 A. Yes. At that time I believe it was upstairs. Upstairs there were
2 offices where General Milosevic was, and his escorts would sometimes come
3 over to my office and talk to me.
4 Q. Now, at the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps press centre how many -- how
5 many people or how many soldiers worked at the centre? And I'm interested
6 in -- well, throughout the conflict but specifically in 1994 and 1995?
7 A. In the beginning when the press centre was formed, there were
8 three or four of us there. Journalists would come and go. Later on the
9 press centre got more personnel. The journalists were doing their job
10 preparing what had to be prepared.
11 Q. And so in the period 1994/1995, did you have -- did you have a
12 supervisor, as it were, or was there somebody that you reported to within
13 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps press centre?
14 A. We were immediately subordinated to the assistant corps commander.
15 When they needed us to do something, he would come over to let us know,
16 or he would call us over the phone and tell us that we had to go somewhere
17 or that journalists had to prepare a news report and so on and so forth.
18 Q. And the assistant corps commander, as I understand it, in 1994 and
19 1995, was that Cedo Sladoje? Is that who you're speaking about? And if
20 it's not, please tell the Court the name.
21 A. I'm not talking about that person. He was not in charge of the
22 press centre. Another person was in charge of the press centre.
23 Q. And what was that person's name?
24 A. I know that he was a colonel, but he was someone who wasn't from
25 the area. He had come from elsewhere, and I simply can't recall his name.
1 If you can give me a name, I'd perhaps be able to confirm it.
2 Dragicevic. Actually, I believe his surname was Dragicevic.
3 Q. Is it perhaps Luka, Luka Dragicevic?
4 A. Yes. Yes. His name was Luka Dragicevic.
5 Q. And at the time in 1994, 1995, Luka Dragicevic was -- was the
6 commander for the -- the unit -- the units -- commander of the morale,
7 political and religious affairs unit; isn't that right?
8 A. I believe so. He was in touch with the press centre.
9 Q. So I take it that you -- in that period 1994/1995, you personally
10 had regular dealings with Colonel Dragicevic?
11 A. Well, we simply didn't have any regular dealings. If he needed
12 something, he would come to the press centre or he would call over the
13 phone and tell us that a crew would come and that somebody should take the
14 crew out into the field.
15 Q. Well, can we agree, sir, that you at least had dealings with him,
16 whether by telephone or in person, you or any of your colleagues, at least
17 once a week?
18 A. Mostly we had to have contact. There was always something.
19 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues participate in the -- the
20 regular corps command meetings? In other words, when General Milosevic
21 held his meetings at the corps command, did you ever participate or any of
22 your colleagues ever participate in those meetings?
23 A. We didn't participate in the meetings. Only sometimes when
24 meetings were organised and we were invited to the meetings, but the
25 command wasn't there. Perhaps it would just be a meeting at the press
1 centre, talks, planning, and so on.
2 Q. Well, do you remember having a meeting with General Milosevic,
3 having an official meeting, not just you and him, but you and other
4 members of the corps command, at all during the period 1994/1995?
5 A. I didn't think about that, but I think that there were some
6 meetings. It was a long time ago. I can't really say now with precision.
7 Q. Now, in the -- in the press -- the press office or the press
8 centre, what sort of equipment or facilities did you have?
9 A. There were just some desks, cupboards. There was a bed. I had my
10 own camera. I obtained a camera that I used to make photographs, and
11 somebody brought a video camera, a VHS camera. I don't know who it
12 belonged to.
13 Q. Yesterday you told the Court that after you would take foreign
14 journalists around the Serb part of Sarajevo and around the front lines,
15 you would then monitor the press thereafter and see whether your -- your
16 visits or your reports were featured in subsequent press reports. Do you
17 remember that, sir?
18 A. I worked with a lot of TV crews. The press conferences were not
19 ever held at the corps press centre. Only on one occasion when there was
20 something about the pulling out of the artillery. And I tried to follow
21 the media as much as I could. We had one or two programmes when we had
22 electricity. The picture was pretty bad, the TV screen picture, and we
23 tried to follow. I was simply interested to see how this was reported,
24 how the journalists that I worked with that day would report on the
1 Q. And so I take it then you had -- you had a TV. You had a TV in
2 your office in the press centre; is that right?
3 A. We had an old TV that stayed there from the JNA. It broke down
4 quite frequently. We didn't have a good antenna, so we improvised just to
5 be able to follow something.
6 Q. Nevertheless, you were able to follow, as you said, something on
7 occasion; is that right?
8 A. Yes. We were able to follow. The signals were very weak in any
9 case, and simply we just got more annoyed sometimes, and sometimes we were
10 able to follow.
11 Q. And when you were able to follow -- well, let me ask you
12 this -- the foreign journalists that you took around during the conflict,
13 yesterday you spoke about a team of British or English journalists that
14 had come from Belgrade. Do you remember which companies or which
15 countries the foreign journalists that you took around came from during
16 that period?
17 A. Yesterday's case when we watched the footage, I know that I got
18 into a car and I was told there was a TV crew coming that was being guided
19 by another person, and I used the opportunity to get to Grbavica with
20 them. Many TV crews came. I know CNN would come, also some French
21 channels. I know that there were also Italian TV crews, German ones. I
22 remember their logos, and so that's how I could tell that these were TV
24 A lot of people circulated, but I wasn't the only one who escorted
25 them, there were others also that worked on that.
1 Q. So you mentioned CNN, you mentioned French and German, and perhaps
2 isn't it not -- is it not right, sir, that perhaps the BBC also came? The
3 British Broadcasting Corporation from the United Kingdom.
4 A. Yes. I would see those crews, but I didn't speak with them
5 particularly. Perhaps I wasn't the one to escort them. I know that there
6 were many, many crews from conversations, and I did see that there were
7 people from the BBC also.
8 Q. Now, you said a moment ago that if needed Mr. Dragicevic would
9 contact you or contact the press centre. What sort of things would he be
10 asking of you.
11 A. Well, I already answered in a way. It would be to say that
12 someone who was free or somebody would be assigned to take the TV crew
13 where the TV crew -- team wanted to go or where they were permitted to go,
14 where they wanted to go.
15 Q. When -- when you had undertaken these -- these excursions with
16 these foreign journalists, and as you said you -- you sometimes were able
17 to monitor the press subsequently to see how the reports had transpired,
18 did you relay -- at times did you relay the information? In other words,
19 did you speak to members of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps about how these
20 reports transpired, whether they -- they reported correctly or
21 accurately? Did you do that, sir?
22 A. I don't know. I talked with the soldiers, and there was distrust
23 on the part of the Serb soldiers towards the media, probably because of
24 earlier reports or because of something. I don't know. It's not up to me
25 to analyse. But I can answer your question by saying that I did talk. I
1 don't know who I talked with. It's something that happened 12 or 13 years
3 Q. So, for example, if the -- the French correspondents or perhaps
4 the British correspondents from the BBC after accompanying the
5 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps press centre on their trips then produced
6 -- subsequently produced a report which you deemed -- after watching it
7 which you deemed to be not completely accurate, that information, I take
8 it, would be communicated to -- to Mr. Dragicevic or other members of the
9 Sarajevo Corps command. Is that how I understand it, sir?
10 A. If I was supposed to inform some of the persons in charge, I would
11 have done that. We simply didn't pay attention to that. And there was
12 constant distrust in some way towards these foreign electronic media on
13 the part of the soldiers. So that's the only thing I can say.
14 Q. I appreciate the distrust that you say there was, but during your
15 time at the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps press centre, in other words, during
16 the period of the conflict you did, did you not, you did recount the
17 contents of these media reports that you monitored. Isn't that right?
18 A. I don't know. Rarely. It's possible, but I don't recall anyone
19 asking me to go and say I was with these people, or if I met somebody I
20 could say I was there, I completed the assignment, everything is all
21 right. Things like that. As I said, there were other people, other staff
22 in the press centre, military conscripts, so I really cannot directly say
23 that I recall anything. Possibly there were such things, but
24 specifically, at this moment I cannot recall anything in particular.
25 Q. Well, I appreciate you say it's possible that you might have done,
1 but it's also possible that your other colleagues at the press centre did
2 so as well, isn't it?
3 A. Yes, it's possible. I couldn't do it myself. Sometimes you would
4 have two, three, four crews turn up at the same time, so somebody would
5 have to take them.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned a moment ago about the distrust of the foreign
7 media, and I take it that when you speak about that you are referring to
8 the -- the stories from CNN, from the BBC, of how the civilians in
9 Sarajevo were -- were under shell-fire and sniper-fire. Are those the
10 sorts of stories that you're speaking about, sir?
11 A. In a way it is connected, but this distrust, I personally also had
12 that with the electronic media. I took two crews with me and I was going
13 to show them Serb victims, people who had suffered on the Serb side.
14 Simply they were not interesting in filming that; they wanted some other
15 things like that. And I was even insulted then, and I saw that some of
16 those crews are coming -- or were coming with a specific intention, and
17 they reported more from Sarajevo, and it was as if they were doing it just
18 because they were assigned to do it.
19 Q. So the -- you yourself and your colleagues and I would imagine
20 other soldiers at Lukavica, when they -- when they got wind or when they
21 on occasion managed to -- to monitor the foreign media, the BBC, the CNN,
22 the French, and the reports contained images of civilians suffering
23 within -- within the confrontation lines in Sarajevo, images of civilians
24 being shelled or sniped, generally at Lukavica there was -- there was this
25 distrust about those reports. Is that a fair statement, sir?
1 A. In a way you could say that, but every time the crews came we
2 didn't pay attention if they reported about something. Simply the person
3 who was guiding the crew would become friendly with them. We didn't put
4 any limits on their work. But definitely there was a kind of distrust.
5 How can I put it? Simply, it was as if they were more leaning towards the
6 Bosniak side, something like that. And we didn't really follow the
7 reports or anything, but this is what I can say about that.
8 Q. So when we talk about the suffering on the Bosniak side, I take it
9 we mean within the confrontation lines of Sarajevo. So we're speaking
10 about -- I would imagine we're speaking about incidents such as the
11 Markale incident, such as the -- the incident -- the shelling of the
12 waterline incident in Dobrinja, those sorts of incidents. Am I right?
13 A. Yes, mostly these were events. I don't know which TV crews were
14 covering that. In any case, it was the television of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, the television that was under Bosniak control. They
16 broadcast some news and we watched that. I don't know exactly if I can
17 answer you the way you want me to.
18 Q. I'm not asking you to answer in a way that I want. I just want
19 the truth from you, sir.
20 Now --
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I have one second.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. SACHDEVA:
24 Q. Sir, may I just ask one question. Do you know or did you know
25 when you worked in Lukavica of -- of somebody called Milenko Indjic?
1 A. Yes. I knew that person.
2 Q. And when you say you knew him, did you meet with him? Did you
3 have occasion to meet with him or be in meetings where he was present?
4 A. He was a liaison officer, liaison with the United Nations, and if
5 anything was related to the press centre or any event that had to do with
6 the United Nations, he would inform us. We would simply receive
7 information from him. I mean, these were the contacts that we had.
8 Q. So, for example, what kind of information did you receive from
9 him? If you can remember.
10 A. I know in 1995 that he was in a meeting in town where they
11 discussed a shell that was fired at the airport and that they confirmed
12 that this was fired from the Muslim, from the Bosniak side. And this
13 report was sent to Zagreb, and he conveyed this information to the media
14 that were in Lukavica.
15 And if some meeting was supposed to take place, some politicians
16 to meet, he would inform the press centre or one of the journalists to let
17 them know that the journalists should wait, that these politicians, these
18 persons were supposed to meet. They would provide transportation for
19 those people. And they also were servicing the United Nations. And
20 sometimes when these people were expected, the journalists would be
21 waiting in these places where the meeting would take place. And when the
22 meeting was over then Indjic would come and inform the journalists that
23 they could go and speak to whoever was there at the meeting.
24 Q. Did Colonel Indjic ever relate to you or your fellow colleagues,
25 or did you ever hear about the -- the protests from the United Nations
1 since he was the liaison officer, as you said, that protests he would have
2 received from the United Nations about the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
3 shelling and sniping civilians in the city of Sarajevo?
4 A. From what I can recall, not personally to me, but if there were
5 some -- if there were some cases like that I'm sure that he would convey
6 that to people who were more authorised or were supposed to be dealing
7 with matters like that.
8 Q. I guess you mean -- you mean persons like Mr. Sladoje or Mr. -- in
9 fact, General Milosevic. That's who you're speaking about, right, sir?
10 A. I don't know. I don't think you understood me here. You asked
11 the question whether the colonel or the major Indjic, whichever he was,
12 conveyed that to us at the press centre. He did not do that. He did not
13 convey that to me because I was not a journalist. But I don't know to
14 whom he conveyed this information. I wasn't even supposed to know things
15 like that. I'm just telling you about the type of work that I carried
17 Q. But you agree that he probably would have conveyed this
18 information to persons who were more authorised or who were supposed to be
19 dealing with those matters; is that right?
20 A. I cannot know what he conveyed, what the meetings were, what the
21 system was, the system of command, because I simply wasn't in a position
22 to know whether any sort of meeting of the command was held or not. I
23 was simply not aware, or I wasn't informed about things like that.
24 Q. Sir, you were in the command, weren't you, as you said yesterday?
25 You were in the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. In other words,
1 your unit was attached to the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
2 Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. We were a separate section, and the press
4 centre was formed quite late, and simply the journalists or anyone from
5 the press centre did not go to any meetings so that we would know. Only
6 when something needed to be done, then they would inform us.
7 Q. Now, isn't it right, sir, that in May, sometime thereabouts in May
8 1994, General Galic established what was known as a committee to produce
9 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps monograph? Is that something you remember,
11 A. I recall that this was discussed and that I was supposed to go and
12 tour the entire corps region and to photograph that, but at that point it
13 was not possible. I simply didn't have enough equipment. It wasn't
14 possible to get enough film. So I just went and I made some photographs,
15 and I waited for the material to arrive to be able to continue to work on
16 this publication. I was very interested in making these photographs. I
17 was making -- taking the photographs, but I didn't have the paper in order
18 to be able to print them. All I had was the film, not the paper.
19 Q. And this -- this monograph, it was some sort of war record of the
20 activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps from 1992 to 1994; is that
22 A. That was the idea. But it's something that was very hard to get
23 going. My task was to take the photographs, take photographs of the
24 Serbian soldiers in certain places, to photograph handsome, neat soldiers,
25 to go around this whole area. However, this didn't come to anything
1 practically because at the time I didn't have enough material. There were
2 also some other factors that prevented that. I don't know who was in
3 charge of perhaps writing something.
4 Q. The -- wasn't the chairman of this committee Major General
5 Dragomir Milosevic?
6 A. I don't know that, and this is the first time that I'm hearing
7 that a commission was formed and that General Milosevic would be at the
8 head of that commission. In any case, I was entrusted with taking or
9 making the photographs. However, we didn't have material. It was not
10 possible for us to actually print the photograph. We were waiting for the
11 material to arrive for the photographs to be printed and then to make this
12 brochure or this publication, but we really couldn't complete the job.
13 Q. Sir, I would ask that the information you've just given has
14 already been given to us, so please just try to stick to the questions I'm
16 Now, isn't it also correct that the deputy chairman was
17 Colonel Ljubo Kosovac? Is that something that you remember?
18 A. I remember that Ljubo Kosovac was before Colonel Dragicevic. He
19 was at that post. And I know that Ljubo Kosovac -- I think it was Ljubo.
20 Kosovac in any case is his last name. He told me I should be working on
21 this publication and that I should be preparing material, photographs to
22 go and make the photographs when the necessary material became available.
23 Q. I'm going to show you a document, and perhaps it might -- it might
24 jog your memory.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for 65 ter 03450 to be brought up,
2 Q. Now, sir, you see on the right-hand side of the screen --
3 A. I see it.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps I could ask for this not to be broadcast.
5 Can I confirm that it's not being broadcast? Thank you.
6 Q. Now, sir you see at the top it's dated 17th of May, 1994, and that
7 it comes from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command. Do you see that?
8 A. Can you please repeat the date again? I don't see it here.
9 Q. It's at the top. 17th of May, 1994. Top -- the top left-hand
11 A. There are numbers here that I cannot understand. I'm not sure
12 that this first part of the number is a date.
13 Q. Well, we can agree that it's 1994, can't we?
14 A. I think that this was in 1994.
15 Q. And if you look under item -- if you look under item 2, it states
16 that: "An editorial board of the following members shall be responsible
17 for producing the monograph," and the first name you see there is the
18 chairman, "predsednik," Major General Dragomir Milosevic. Do you see
20 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And if we could move to the third page in the English. And you'll
1 see, sir, that item 8 that it states that: "The commands of the units
2 shall include in this material items on the engagement of the SDS, the
3 Serbian Democratic Party; the Crisis Staff, the Orthodox Church, the
4 Ministry of the Interior and the municipalities ..."
5 You see that written there?
6 A. Yes, I do and I've read that.
7 Q. And you see that it's signed by General Galic at the bottom?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document under seal.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As P911 under seal, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Sachdeva, just for -- to be sure that I have
13 not overlooked something, what is it you wish exactly to show the Court by
14 admitting this document?
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, the --
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: The relevance.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: I understand. The relevance -- I submit that the
18 relevance is this: The -- the document clearly shows that in 1994, in
19 May, when the accused was, as is recorded here, already a general and the
20 chief of staff of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, that he was responsible for
21 the production of a record of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps combat
22 activities, I suggest, and the activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
23 And therefore, in our submission it goes to -- notice to the accused as we
24 have alleged in our indictment that when Dragomir Milosevic was -- when
25 the accused was the chief of staff prior to taking over the command, he
1 would have -- we suggest would have been -- would have knowledge of the
2 activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, would have knowledge of the
3 crimes -- alleged crimes of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and taken that
4 knowledge with him as he became commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
5 So in our submission this -- this is part of that circumstantial evidence.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I will
9 not be raising any matters. If the document is admitted as a Prosecution
10 exhibit, I will deal with it in my re-examination. I only wish to state
11 the following: When you will be assessing the relevance of the document,
12 you have to keep in mind the fact that the witness said that he had known
13 about that and that this was a project that had never been materialised.
14 I merely wanted the Trial Chamber to keep this in mind whilst deciding its
15 weight, and of course I will deal with this matter in my re-examination.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
17 Mr. Sachdeva.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the witness did speak to having
19 taken photographs and going -- in his role at least, going to -- to areas
20 where Serbian soldiers were.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, not that. Continue your cross-examination.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Oh, I see. I apologise.
23 Is -- can I ask if the document is admitted under seal?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admitted it.
25 Under seal, Mr. Court Deputy.
1 MR. SACHDEVA:
2 Q. Sir, you said when I asked you questions about this document, you
3 said that you did manage to go around the Serbian -- the Serb part of
4 Sarajevo and take photographs of Serbian soldiers in certain locations.
5 Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Do you remember where these locations were?
8 A. I do recall that in essence. However, when I started working on
9 the monograph, I never saw this document. I went to a factory in the
10 Vojkovic neighbourhood, and I spent an entire film there because I took
11 photographs for the purposes of the monograph. I photographed the factory
12 which had been damaged, devastated. It was divided between the two sides,
13 the Bosniak and the Serb sides. I went to the Vojkovic neighbourhood also
14 to take photographs of some soldiers and so on.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Tapuskovic.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that Mr.
17 Sachdeva has used up the time given to him for his cross-examination.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And so indeed you have, Mr. Sachdeva. You can
19 have another five minutes.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President. I have one more
22 Q. Sir, you spoke about your role with your camera, and we spoke
23 yesterday about the -- about the photographs you took of the
24 effects -- the effects of war in the Sarajevo -- the Serbian Sarajevo
25 part. Did you ever photograph SRK troops in action? In other words, did
1 you ever photograph Sarajevo-Romanija troops -- Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
2 troops engaged in operations?
3 A. I was never at the front lines. I was always in the rear where
4 you could hear gunfire and fighting, but I never went or joined the
5 soldiers at the front line.
6 Q. And you still maintain your evidence that when you were
7 at -- well, when you were going about with your camera along the -- in
8 the Sarajevan -- Serb Sarajevan part of Sarajevo, you never wore a uniform
9 or rarely; that is correct?
10 A. I wore a uniform rarely; only on occasions. It depended. Only if
11 someone was coming. I also wore my uniform sometimes because I had a
12 shortage of clothes. Especially in the wintertime when I wore a uniform
13 jacket and I tried to make do.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] When you wore your uniform by
15 coincidence, did you have a rank, a military rank which was showing on
16 that uniform?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had never had a rank, and I had
18 never worn uniforms with such insignia. It only could have happened that
19 I borrowed someone's clothes. I know that in winter I didn't have enough
20 winter clothes and I would on occasion borrow pieces of clothing from
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must be at an end now, Mr. Sachdeva. Yes.
24 Mr. Tapuskovic.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. When
1 speaking of the problems concerning clothing, he said that he had these
2 problems because he was a refugee and this was not reflected in the
3 transcript, that he was a refugee.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm grateful to you for that, Mr.
6 Mr. Sachdeva, you must close now. The very last question.
7 MR. SACHDEVA:
8 Q. Witness, you said that you were never at the front lines and you
9 were in the rear, but -- but it is correct as you said to the Court
10 yesterday, that you would go to these areas that were under constant
11 threat and take photographs. Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right. I was quite close to these positions.
13 Yesterday, on one of the photographs you saw that I was passing behind
14 soldiers in an actual war zone where danger is quite serious.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: That concludes my cross-examination, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This time I
18 will have a number of questions. Since document P911 is still on our
19 screens, let us first --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. It's on the screen, yes.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on the screen, and that's
23 why I wish to use it now rather than go back to it later.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Please read what is contained under item 10. You
1 said something about that in answer to Mr. Sachdeva's question, but look
2 at paragraph 10 and read that bit out, please.
3 A. You mean I should read it out aloud?
4 Q. Yes. Just two lines of it.
5 A. "The monograph will be printed by the printing press in Ilidza.
6 The means for its printing and the computer for text preparation for
7 printing shall be provided by the Ilidza municipality."
8 Q. Thank you. A moment ago in answer to the Prosecutor's question,
9 you said this never materialised. I'm asking you now the following: The
10 resources, the funds that are mentioned here, were they at all procured?
11 Were they collected? Was it at all possible under war circumstances?
12 A. We heard the matter mentioned at the press centre, but nothing
13 ever came out of that. We were never called by the Ilidza printing press
14 to discuss this matter, and this is the first time I see this, in this
16 Q. Thank you. Now that we are still on this page, does any of the
17 paragraphs here, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, mention any crimes? Mr. Sachdeva
18 was stating something quite different to that. Are there any crimes
19 mentioned here?
20 A. No. I don't see anything of the sort. The concept of the
21 monograph was not discussed to begin with.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I -- I, just for the record, did not
24 state that this document had those words or that content in this document.
25 I was answering a question from His Honour Judge Harhoff as to the
1 relevance of this document.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes. Let us look at page 1, please. I have to dwell on this
5 document for some time. Page 1.
6 Above the line where it says "Order," can you read that passage
7 and then I will have a question for you.
8 A. "Based on an apparent need and with the aim of professionally
9 dealing with the historic material in the SRK monograph."
10 Q. Thank you. Do you recall this being mentioned in the discussions
11 you had, that is to say the historic material?
12 A. I know that something had to be done about that, and I knew that I
13 personally could not deal with any historic material. This had to be done
14 by someone else.
15 Q. Thank you. Look at the names that are listed here.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Are we in private session, by the
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think so. Are we in private session?
19 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, we're in public session.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private
21 session just for a moment? I have to read out a name.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any
11 questions in relation to this because you know that yesterday the
12 photographs, D326 MFI and 325 MFI, were in fact admitted only as MFI
13 documents because of the poor quality. In order to save time, I would
14 like to show both of these photographs on the ELMO, and after that they
15 could be given their proper exhibit number.
16 Your Honours, I have them in e-court as well. DD004288. Your
17 Honours, in order not to waste any more time - something must be wrong
18 with e-court - let's place this on the ELMO.
19 There, Your Honours, the photograph is quite clear now, and could
20 it be assigned a Defence exhibit number?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I said yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if we could have the document ID
23 number stated again or the MFI number.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 325 MFI.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will remain Exhibit 325, D325.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And if the same could be done
2 with this other photograph which was yesterday assigned the following
3 number: 326 MFI. And can we place it on the ELMO.
4 The photograph in e-court is 325, whereas this photograph here is
6 Since the photograph we had yesterday was of very poor quality, we
7 have a good copy now. Can it be assigned an exhibit number? Yesterday it
8 was 326 MFI, and now it should be Defence Exhibit 326.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be admitted as D326.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I still have several questions
13 Q. Two times you mentioned the name of Cedo Sladoje?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you say you have several
15 questions left. How long? Because it's time for the break. If it's just
16 a minute or two, then we will take the break now.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will need 20 minutes certainly,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll take the break now.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm
24 going to try to be as efficient as possible.
25 Q. Witness, you mentioned in the cross-examination Luka Dragicevic,
1 and you also mentioned Cedo Sladoje twice. At one point in time, was
2 Cedo Sladoje practically carrying out the duties of commander of the
3 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
4 A. I don't know exactly how that works, but I know that he was one of
5 the people who were in the corps. I don't know if he was a deputy. I
6 don't know what the function was. I just know that he did functions like
8 Q. You said at that Mr. Dragomir Milosevic went on sick leave in
9 August 1995. Do you know who was performing the duties of the commander
10 of the SRK at that time?
11 A. I don't know exactly, but I think it was Colonel Sladoje. He was
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that has to do with
15 the document, the medical documentation, and yesterday you said that at
16 the end of the examination of the witness you would put questions about
17 the medical documents indicating something about the sick leave of Mr.
18 Dragomir Milosevic in August, because this witness said that he knows that
19 he was on sick leave at the time, and now he has just said what he has
20 just said about Cedo Sladoje.
21 Well, let me continue and finish, and then perhaps you will want
22 to put those questions. I would like for us first to look at document of
23 the Prosecution that we looked at yesterday. This is document P909.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You saw this photograph yesterday, is that correct, and you
1 identified this as the home for the blind. Several questions about this
2 were put to you by my learned friend Mr. Sachdeva, and you said that at
3 the time you were passing.
4 Do you know what caused these effects on this building from the
5 time you saw it during the time of the conflict?
6 A. I said yesterday that I didn't see exactly. I don't know exactly
7 what building this is, but evidently you can see here that this building
8 burned. I don't know what happened to it. I can see that probably it was
9 damaged or devastated in combat, in war activities. You can see it's
11 Q. Also yesterday, in response to specific questions by my learned
12 friend Mr. Sachdeva, you explained these black traces on the side. Do you
13 know what causes such markings on buildings when you see a marking like
14 this, a trace like this?
15 A. I think that you can still see these traces on some buildings in
16 Sarajevo. These would be traces of an explosion or a smaller shell. I
17 don't know what sort of calibre that could be. I think that these holes
18 can be made only by some projectiles.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the film footage? This is document
20 of the Prosecution, P910.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we stop it here? Thank you.
23 Q. Yesterday there was a question about this -- well, do you see at
24 all on this photograph anywhere a road, any kind of road anywhere?
25 A. I don't see any roads on this photograph.
1 Q. We were talking about Trebevic here. Can you say what the hills
2 or elevations go to make up Trebevic?
3 A. If you go, then you can start from Vrace, Debelo Brdo, the
4 observatory. I think those are the areas that connect to one another then
5 there's the Prvi Sumar, Vidikovac. That's the place where the cable car
6 used to go to.
7 Q. And do you know whose hill is the hill by the name Colina Kapa?
8 Who held Colina Kapa? Under whose control was it?
9 A. There are two hills there that we in a way, I don't know exactly
10 how, but I think this one part was held by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 I simply wasn't really passing by there so to know exactly and to be
12 able to --
13 Q. In any case, Witness, can you say under whose control this place
15 A. I cannot tell here. This photograph is technically bad, and
16 simply there are no parameters that would allow me to recognise anything
17 on this photograph.
18 Q. Thank you. And can you also answer the question since my
19 colleague Mr. Sachdeva asked you, rifle and then what was on it. And is
20 this, please -- is this, please, a rifle that you see on this photograph
22 A. I don't know. You can see something. Perhaps it's a weapon. I
23 mean it's dark. I don't know how close the person who took the photograph
24 was so I cannot really tell exactly what it is. This is something bigger.
25 Q. Yes. And do you see the ammunition belt? Let's not waste time
1 and show it from a different angle, but do you see the ammunition belt
3 A. Yes. It is some sort of ammunition that is going into the barrel.
4 That's what it looks like to me. I don't know.
5 Q. Well, can you at least tell me is this a rifle?
6 A. I don't think this is a rifle. I think this is a machine-gun. I
7 don't know. The machine-guns would use the ammunition belts like that.
8 Q. All right. Thank you. And now if we can just -- no, actually, I
9 don't have any more questions.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence.
11 I take it you are finished, Mr. Tapuskovic?
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I have, but
13 you said yesterday -- you said that you would at the end of this
14 examination deal with the medical document that indicates --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we did.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As D340, Your Honours.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can just do an
20 additional thing. Yesterday I didn't have the original documents. I have
21 the originals. I have copies, and I have the original documents which I
22 can present to the Trial Chamber. These are original medical documents
23 issued by the doctors at the clinic where he was treated. These are not
24 copies. I have the original documents, and if it's necessary I can
25 present the original documents of these documents that you have already
1 admitted as exhibits.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you can present them. If you have the
3 originals, yes.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the most important one.
5 It has its contents on the first and the second page. It has its stamp,
6 the signature of the doctor. I also have the accompanying documentation,
7 but it seems to me that this is the most important document. It's been
8 translated. It's a complete document. And this is the fifth and the
9 sixth page in the document.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, can I just clarify through the Court
12 whether these documents are the same documents or the same documents that
13 were shown to the witness, because Mr. Tapuskovic is tendering this
14 document through the witness, and therefore on account of the witness's
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic informed me this was the original
17 of the document which we admitted. That's the basis on which I've allowed
18 him to -- to tender it.
19 Is that so, Mr. Tapuskovic? If it's the original of the document
20 that we have already admitted, then there is no problem. That suggests
21 that the document admitted was a copy.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can show -- I can
23 show the documents to the Prosecution. This is a series of documents.
24 They're all originals. The Prosecutor can look at them.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: The reason why -- the reason why I asked the
1 question is because from my recollection the document that was shown to
2 the witness was not five or six pages, and my recollection was that there
3 was not handwritten information. I stand to be corrected, but that's my
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, you can look at the entire
6 complete document.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. We are not dealing with the entire complete
8 document. You asked me to allow you to tender the original of the
9 document which we admitted. That was a very short document. What are you
10 now seeking to do, to tender a number of other documents related to it?
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. What already has been
12 admitted, that is there, and that has been admitted. What I wanted to do
13 is I wanted to strengthen that and say that I also have original
14 documents. There is nothing new to what I had already tendered. This is
15 DD003189, and I'm just saying I have the original documents, and I can
16 also present them to the Chamber.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The document we admitted yesterday -- that we
18 admitted today is an eight-page document. So the documents which you are
19 presenting now, Mr. Tapuskovic are the originals of that document?
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Prosecutor, do you have anything to say on
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, as I understand it, the page that
24 was presented -- the document that was presented to the witness yesterday
25 was -- was one page, as it seems to be in e-court. I don't recall
1 -- perhaps it was --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear from the court deputy.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I can't recall exactly how many pages
4 were shown to the witness. However, it's been standard practice in the
5 proceeding to have multiple pages in one document and not show every
6 single page to the witness in order to have that one document tendered and
7 admitted as an exhibit.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: And how many pages were the document from
10 THE REGISTRAR: The document that is currently in e-court. The
11 document ID number is DD003189, is an eight-page document.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I remember these documents. The
14 medical history of Mr. Milosevic were shown to the first Defence witness,
15 Mr. Veljovic, and I think at that time we didn't have translations. I
16 think it's wrong to tender these documents through this witness, because
17 the only thing can -- he can say is yes, I remember he was in Belgrade.
18 But we do not object to have these documents come in as such because they
19 say what they say. But to tender it with this witness, I think the link
20 is just not there. But I repeat the documents can come in as what they
21 are, medical documents from the treatment of I think the eye of the
22 accused in Belgrade sometime in August.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do I understand then from the Prosecutor that you
25 wouldn't be challenging the authenticity of the documents?
1 MR. WAESPI: Well, I just saw them 30 seconds. They appear to be
2 authentic to me.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll admit them as documents that are
4 relevant to the case.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: And not through this witness.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, one number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these documents will be added to
8 Exhibit D340.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
10 you for giving it. You may now leave.
11 Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have something else to say?
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to mention the
13 next witness, but I will wait until this witness leaves the courtroom.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may now leave, Witness.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness -- Ms. Edgerton. You're not the
17 next witness.
18 MS. EDGERTON: No, I'm not, Your Honours, but in the event she's
19 going to be brought through this door, I would just like to indicate I
20 have a submission I'd like to make to Your Honours before the witness
21 comes in.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the witness comes in.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I think it's appropriate.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is this submission?
25 MS. EDGERTON: The submission is respect to the documents that
1 are, I understand, intended to be tendered into evidence through this
2 witness, Your Honour, and I received a list of them. There's 151 of them.
3 I received a list on the 17th of July, two days ago, or the 19th, and I've
4 looked at the whole list and read those documents that I'm able to, but
5 there are 62 documents on that list, Your Honours, that aren't translated
6 at all. And with respect to, first of all, those 62 documents, I'm having
7 some difficulty in understanding why we might be in a position to deal
8 with them today without translation. So I would submit that those
9 documents shouldn't actually and aren't properly part of the Trial Record
10 unless they're translated. It would be, in my submission, unfair and
11 indeed wouldn't allow any of us to have a full appreciation of their
12 potential relevance to the case.
13 There are 14 documents on the list that are only translated in
14 some excerpts, small portions of them, and earlier in this trial with the
15 witness whose name was Dragas, he testified at page 7117, with that
16 witness we saw that indeed some very significant portions were left
17 untranslated that would help all of us, Your Honours, again, assess the
18 document's relevance to the case. In fact, those untranslated portions in
19 that case dealt with -- specifically with the activities of the SRK as of
20 the date of the document. So I have difficulty with those documents
21 coming in through this witness without translation.
22 And as for the remaining 74, I've read all of those and would be
23 prepared to make submissions with respect to the relevance of a large
24 number of those. However, they're all translated. And I just want to
25 underline with respect to those 74 that are translated, I have no issue.
1 The Prosecution takes no issue with respect to the authenticity of the
2 documents if this is what this witness is coming to talk about.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let me hear Mr. Tapuskovic.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I could also
5 venture to give an explanation. However, since my learned friend dealt
6 with the relevance and since this -- since my colleague has dealt with the
7 relevance and since we have discussed the matter, the two -- concerning
8 the translation --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't deal with relevance now, just the issue of
10 translation. The relevance is an issue that will be taken up when the
11 witness testifies.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we intended to ask
13 for the documents to be admitted and marked for identification. The
14 documents were submitted for translation, but the documents themselves are
15 very short. They only contain several sentences each, and they will be
16 fully translated by the end of the Defence case, and I believe that they
17 will certainly be translated in August when we resume, perhaps even
18 before. At any rate, our intention was to ask that these documents be
19 admitted with an MFI number.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, are they amenable to that
22 MS. EDGERTON: I can't read them at all to even see that. I -- if
23 there was some pearl of evidence that would affect the resolution of this
24 case one way or another, I have no appreciation of the language to be able
25 to answer Your Honours on that.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll hear the witness, and we'll deal first with
3 those that are translated. Are you hearing, Mr. Tapuskovic? We'll deal
4 first with -- what is it, 70 -- my mathematics are not so good.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Seventy-four by my count, and my mathematics are
6 generally poorer than yours, but 74 by my count.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: That means you're at the very bottom of the heap,
8 Ms. Edgerton.
9 So we'll deal with those first that have been translated, Mr.
10 Tapuskovic. Only those that have been translated. And when you're
11 finished dealing with those, we'll take up the question of those that have
12 not been.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: SNEZANA MARINKOVIC-JEKIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter].
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I start?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
22 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again thank you, Your
25 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, can you tell your full name to the
3 A. [In English] My name is Snezana Marinkovic-Jekic [Interpretation]
4 Apologies. I apologise. I started speaking in English, and I will be
5 giving my testimony in the B/C/S.
6 Q. But please speak slower. You were born on the 13th of July, 1968;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In Jesenica, Slovenia where your father worked at the time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You completed your primary and secondary education in Belgrade; is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You graduated from the law school in Belgrade in 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were admitted to the bar, to the bar of Serbia in Belgrade,
17 back in 1994; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether over these 13 years you also dealt
20 with criminal law?
21 A. Yes, as a lawyer in Belgrade.
22 Q. Thank you. When did you become involved in the work of the
23 Defence team for General Milosevic?
24 A. In February of 2005, in early February.
25 Q. And that was based on whose decision?
1 A. Based on -- or, rather, pursuant to the decision of the Registry
2 of this Tribunal.
3 Q. What were your duties within your assignment?
4 A. I mostly dealt with the searches through documents based on the
5 instructions provided by the counsel and co-counsel.
6 Q. When were you mostly dealing with documents? In what time period?
7 A. Well, mostly when we were given access to the archives. That is
8 to say the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of
9 Republika Srpska. We were given access to the archives of the VRS, and I
10 started examining the documentation.
11 Q. Pause there, please. Let us take it step-by-step in order to
12 explain this fully.
13 Can you tell the Judges what the procedure was like before you and
14 other members of the Defence team started taking steps to examine the
15 archives of both armies for the purposes of the Defence in this case?
16 A. The procedure was --
17 Q. Please wait for my question to be entered in the transcript and
18 then start giving your answer.
19 A. This was the procedure: The -- the main counsel would send a
20 request seeking access to the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 This request would be sent to the Ministry of Defence of -- of the
22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Based on their authorisation, we were
23 allowed access to the archives, and we were allowed to examine the
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Let me add this: The other archives we used was the archives of
2 the army of Republika Srpska. The procedure this involved was such that a
3 request seeking access to the archives --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Was sent through the secretariat.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton is on her feet.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Not to raise any objection except to point out that
8 there is not a single document of these 151 that emanates according to the
9 Defence list from the archives of the Republika Srpska. So may I
10 respectfully suggest we move on to the archives of the army of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina? And the documents on the list emanate from either the Office
12 of the Prosecutor or, according to Defence records, the army of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina archives.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the archives of the army of Republika Srpska
15 are not relevant, Mr. Tapuskovic.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would not wish to
17 nit-pick this. However, there were two documents only from the archives
18 of the VRS that we placed on this list, and they are among the other ones
19 there you will see that later on. The documents in question are number
20 181 and 182 -- or 186.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that explains the reference to the -- to those
22 archives, yes. Can we now move on?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, in that case I apologise because they weren't
24 indicated on my list as being from the VRS archives.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let's move on.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Ms. Marinkovic, as concerns the work you did in the archives of
3 the VRS, whenever you wanted to gain access to the archives was it
4 necessary to present a request for each and every occasion?
5 A. On the occasion of every single visit to the archives we had to
6 bring along a request in which we had to specify which part of the
7 archives we were interested in. This request we would send to the
8 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Every
9 authorisation they issued addressed the specific request we submitted on a
10 given occasion.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us roughly when it was that we filed such
12 a request, and when was it possible to start examining the archives?
13 A. The first request was filed in either July or August of 2006.
14 Subsequently, we filed other requests, and we visited the archives on
15 several occasions. The bulk of the documents contained on this list was
16 obtained based on the authorisations we received in November and December.
17 We, therefore, visited the archives twice, once in -- on the 1st of
18 November -- or, rather, in November, and the second occasion was -- or
19 -- and twice in December of 2006, and on these occasions we selected
20 4.000 documents, some of which are contained on the list here.
21 Q. Once you went through these documents, what did you do next? Did
22 you produce a list of sorts?
23 A. Once we searched through the documents, I marked those documents
24 which in accordance with the instructions from Defence counsel were -- I
25 deemed significant. Next, I produced a list for my own purposes in order
1 to be able to see whether all the documents marked as significant were in
2 fact received later on.
3 Q. And did you in fact receive all 4.000 of the documents which you
4 produced on that list?
5 A. Yes. I received all these documents.
6 Q. When did you receive them, if you can give us the date. And I'm
7 referring to the documents that you selected back in December.
8 A. The documents were received on the 30th of January, 2007, and on
9 the 2nd of February, 2007. I personally was handed these documents at the
11 Q. And you have a document which certificates that you were handed
12 each and every one of these documents from the archives of -- of
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Out of 4.000-odd documents you are aware that a number of these
16 documents have already been admitted into evidence in this case based on
17 the request of the Defence.
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 Q. As you arrived in The Hague on this occasion, did you go through
20 the list of the documents contained in this large binder and which are
21 contained in this list which we intend to tender into evidence pending the
22 Trial Chamber's decision?
23 A. I have gone through the list, and I have gone through all the
24 documents which have been appended to the list. And I can confirm that
25 all the documents contained in the list are the documents which I took
1 from the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or, rather, they
2 are copies of those documents.
3 Q. What is it that you can confirm in relation to these documents,
4 both in terms of what you were able to see at the time when you were
5 looking at them and at -- and both from the situation when you were able
6 to see them now as you arrived here?
7 A. I can confirm that these are copies of originals which I had
8 occasion to see in the archives. As for their authenticity, I could
9 assess that on the basis of the stamps and signatures contained in the
10 originals in the archives, which were of a different colour, different
11 from the typed-out text. One of the documents was a handwritten document.
12 These documents were also the originals kept in the archives.
13 Q. Did they bear any certification?
14 A. Yes, all of them did. All the documents, besides the
15 certification that each one of us has, the stamp and the signature also
16 were certified by the archivist in charge of the archive, that was Mr.
17 Mesud Sadinlija, who confirmed that each copy that was taken out of the
18 copy -- that was taken out of the archive was corresponded or faithfully
19 to the document that was kept in the archive.
20 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like to ask you -- ask you to
21 look at some documents and then we're going to see what problems can crop
22 up in relation to these documents, but first let's look at one document.
23 All the documents are in the e-court, TD004277.
24 I would just like to show you --
25 MS. EDGERTON: Could I also have the number, the 65 ter number for
1 that document that appears on the far left-hand corner of your list.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] What I said was the number of the
3 entire list. Of course, I'm going to mention when I speak about specific
4 documents what the number would be from our 65 ter list.
5 I wanted to show the witness some documents so that she could
6 explain her methodology of work, and I also wanted to show her document
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we need any evidence about the methodology,
9 because the Prosecutor is not contesting authenticity. Why don't we just
10 move straight to the documents and -- do you have anything else to adduce
11 from the witness in relation to the 76 documents that have been
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since she looked -- well, can we
14 look at the first page of this list, and then she can say what each column
15 means. Then I would no longer have any questions for her at this time.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we can. Let's hear that.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] When the list appears.
18 Q. If you please can explain to the Judges what each column or
19 section means. Just one moment, please.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, my plan, Mr. Tapuskovic and Ms. Edgerton, is
22 that as soon as you're finished with this, I'm going to ask Ms. Edgerton
23 to raise her questions that relate to relevance concerning those 76
24 documents, and we -- we make a decision on those. We'll hear from you, of
25 course, in reply. And then when we have dealt with that, we'll confront
1 the issue of the remaining documents that haven't been translated.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I think that that would
3 be the most proper and the only possible way to proceed.
4 Q. If you can just tell us, actually, Witness, what each of these
5 columns stand for. Let's start from 1D. What does that indicate?
6 A. The first column indicates the 65 ter number of the document. The
7 second column is the name of the document. The third column is where the
8 date of the document is. The fourth column indicates the drafter or
9 author of the document, then the person who signed the document. The
10 fifth is the place or the source where the document was obtained. In the
11 majority of cases, it's the archive of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 The next column is the number the document is given when it is entered
13 into e-court. It gets the English and the B/C/S version numbers. And
14 then at the end there is a column that speaks about the relevance or
15 importance of the document for the Defence and what is being proved by the
17 Q. So you don't know anything about that section. You don't know
18 anything about that section, that column. Everything else is a product of
19 your work; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this would then end
22 my examination-in-chief, and then when we talk about the relevance, then
23 of course I could do that myself. But this time you can see that this was
24 briefly in English, and then in that case my colleague Ms. Isailovic,
25 since she did that, when the situation calls for a discussion about any of
1 the matters she will present the position of the Defence on that.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. So your
3 examination-in-chief has not concluded, but we have a peculiar sequence
4 now. We're going to hear from Ms. Edgerton on the issue of relevance.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm going to do this by way of
6 highlighting some representative documents if I can and referring Your
7 Honours to the 65 ter numbers that appear on the far left-hand side of the
8 list. And the issue of relevance, I think, Your Honour, falls -- or can
9 be divided up under a number of heads. First is evidence which in my
10 submission, Your Honours, would be redundant evidence which the
11 Prosecution has already called in this case and that's documents, for
12 example, 22 through to 28, report on manning levels in the army of Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina from September right through to March of 1995, every
14 single one of which lists the total manpower level of the army of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina, 1st Corps, as being between 58 and 60.000 strong.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you considering redundancy as an aspect
17 of relevance?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Then I would -- improperly so, then. It's not an
19 aspect of relevance but Your Honours, I would submit, is going to a point
20 that's already been conceded by the Prosecution who-- or it may have been
21 Mr. Tapuskovic himself who elicited that evidence from General Karavelic
22 during that general's testimony who conceded the accuracy of these
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's 22 to --
25 MS. EDGERTON: To 28.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: 22 to 28. Yes.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Other examples, Your Honour, are of documents that
3 pre-date the indictment period, and that I concede in and of itself
4 doesn't dictate their relevance. But that together with the subject of
5 the document, in particular number 131 on the list, which deals with the
6 clean-up, if I can call it that, in October 1993 of the 9th and 10th
7 Mountain Brigades, in other words, Caco and Celo's units, I would say are
8 irrelevant to the case.
9 Further, Your Honours, there are documents, examples of which
10 appear at number 11 on the list, which has absolutely nothing to do with
11 Sarajevo. The word "Sarajevo" doesn't appear in the document. That's the
12 same as number 19 on the list. And please tell me if I'm speaking too
13 quickly. Number 19 deals with the 5th Corps of the army of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina and what assets they might have seized in operations.
15 Your Honours will note the 5th Corps of the army of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina operated in the Bihac area, far and away the other side of
17 the country.
18 Similarly, number 132 on the list is a 5th Corps document, relates
19 to the 5th corps.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 5th Corps operated in an area, you say --
21 MS. EDGERTON: In the Bihac area.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Bihac. And how far is that from Sarajevo?
23 MS. EDGERTON: It's closer to the border with Croatia than it is
24 to Sarajevo, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Edgerton, if I understand you
1 correctly, you're saying that document 11 has nothing to do with Sarajevo
2 and that it is, therefore, not relevant for the purpose of the Defence
3 case. Is that right? Okay.
4 Now, if I look at the explanation provided by the witness, we can
5 read, for instance:
6 [In English] "Shows the relationship between the ABiH and
7 UNPROFOR suggest that the ABiH used to manipulate the UNPROFOR during the
9 [Interpretation] In your opinion, does that mean that it has no
10 relationship with the events in Sarajevo?
11 MS. EDGERTON: My submission, Your Honour, is that the content of
12 the document does not have any relation to events in Sarajevo or any
13 relation to the city of Sarajevo on the face of the document. I prepared
14 my submissions keeping in mind the Defence position in terms of the
15 relevance on the document, but certainly developed my own opinion based on
16 what I read in the document itself. But that brings me to my last point,
17 Your Honour, and in a certain sense is maybe related --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask for some quiet from the Defence. We're
19 having a running commentary. Yes.
20 MS. EDGERTON: It's not squarely -- it doesn't fall under the head
21 of relevance, I'll concede, but going through these documents, for
22 example, numbers 8 and 9 on the list, which are orders to the 1st Corps
23 commander to check on letters of protest, in the first case, from UNPROFOR
24 and to determine if forces -- armed forces of the army of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina are responsible and, if so, to make sure they don't happen
1 again, which is what the document says, would in my submission not exactly
2 correspond with the description of relevance of the document. And you see
3 that in numbers 8, 9 -- I would take some time to go through pages and I
4 would rather not do that, but there are a couple of other instances.
5 And a final example, number 14 on the list, which is a document
6 that orders the return of authorisations for the use of the
7 Dobrinja-Butmir tunnel is yet another example, Your Honours, of something
8 where in my submission the information contained in the four corners of
9 the document not only doesn't correspond with the description of
10 relevance, but in fact is irrelevant to the case, especially in light of
11 the Prosecution's concession that the tunnel was from time to time used
12 for military purposes, which Your Honours have heard again and again.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: But they're going further. They're saying that
14 that regular and frequent use of the tunnel is inconsistent with the
15 blockade, which is an integral part of your case. So that's the purpose
16 of that.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Fine, Your Honour. You've heard my larger
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll hear from you
21 first on the question of the documents numbers 22 to 28 being redundant,
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to
24 respond to that right away and briefly, and then my colleague is going to
25 deal with the other matters with my assistance.
1 The document, the first one -- from 22 to 28. However, one
2 document before that, to my luck I did bring it, so I don't know how it
3 just happens to be close at hand. It's a document that was admitted as a
4 Defence exhibit D106. It was admitted through an unprotected witness,
5 Witness Hadzic, and as can be seen from the document, he said how many
6 soldiers all of the corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, how many
7 men it numbered. So it would be the -- on the 24th of August, 1994, at
8 the place when Dragomir Milosevic assumed duties. And then for the
9 following six months, from the 22nd to the 28th, I think we still have the
10 composition of the 1st Corps and the compositions of the other corps for
11 the next five or six months, or six or seven months. This is particularly
12 significant at the time when the offensive started.
13 And you will recall that at one point I used a certain figure, and
14 you justifiedly warned me why am I using these figures that were not
15 checked. So until now I did not actually give you an answer that I was
16 obliged to provide to you and now I have the opportunity in view of the
17 evidence that exists, that at the time not so many people took part in the
18 offensive and some other corps participated as well. So not the full
19 number of men of the 1st Corps participated in the offensive.
20 First of all we're talking about how many soldiers the army of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in particular the 1st Corps, numbered on the 24th of
22 August, 1994. And then we have the figures for September, October,
23 November, December, January, February, all the way until March we have a
24 list how many men the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina numbered, primarily, the
25 1st Corps.
1 So we believe this is very important to see that the number was
2 not decreasing but the number was increasing. And then we can interpret
3 that further. We believe that this is of extreme importance, all of this.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But, Ms. Edgerton, you're saying that that
6 evidence is already in. Is that your point?
7 MS. EDGERTON: Well, through D106, yes, Your Honours. And in any
8 case, as I said, the Prosecution is prepared to concede the manpower
9 numbers for the 1st Corps were between 58 and 60.000 during the relevant
10 time period.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Okay. So we have heard your
12 submissions on that. So it's the turn now of Ms. Isailovic to respond
13 first on the submissions made about relevance, number 131, the
14 pre-indictment period. The clean-up by the -- of 1993 by the Mountain
15 Brigade. Yes. Yes, Ms. Isailovic, we'll hear you.
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. By your
17 leave in the interest of everyone here in this courtroom, I would like to
18 -- to make -- to count the documents. Altogether there's 151 documents.
19 Eighty-nine of them have been translated, and 62 -- and it's not 70, as
20 Ms. Edgerton was saying. So there's 62 that have not been translated yet.
21 But all these documents are in the relevant department and are awaiting
22 translation, which is soon to come.
23 This was totally outside our possibilities. We have -- we depend
24 on the availability of this department to get the translation done. We
25 would have wanted our documents to be translated. It was not up to us to
1 ask the translation department to do it.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: When were they submitted to the unit for
4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the procedure for
5 the -- used by the translation department is as follows: You need to have
6 two batches of document, and I don't know how many documents there is in
7 one batch, and they accept that for one month. And when we
8 decided -- made our decision on the documents, we put all other documents
9 that were in our list in the procedure as a batch, but we didn't have a
10 significant date, because there are several dates where we submitted
11 documents for translation. We sent them to the translation department as
12 we got them, and in the end, a few days ago, we put all the rest.
13 So it's true that there are a few documents where we asked the
14 translation just a few days ago, but for the others, I mean, they're in
15 the pipeline and they're coming out as fast as they can. Probably --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear you then on the number 131.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regarding document
18 131, it is dated November 17, 1993, and this is before the indictment
19 period. The indictment period starts on August 10. But this is not the
20 first time that we deal with facts that occurred outside the indictment
22 This document is a report made by Mr. Jusuf Jasarevic, who was an
23 officer of the ABiH, and he drafted this special report on facts that did
24 occur before he actually wrote the report, of course. And this is a
25 report on the illegal acts made and committed by a number of people,
1 number of the ABiH army. We've already mentioned Topalovic Caco,
2 Mr. Celo Bajramovic. And as Defence already stated many times, because
3 you know we have seen a number of witnesses that talked about the
4 situation in Sarajevo at the beginning of the conflict and what this meant
5 for the Serb civilians. And they also testified on the terror exerted on
6 themselves, and this is why the Defence believed that it would be useful
7 to tender this special report which relates and which talks about facts
8 that happened before 1993, events that occurred early in the conflict,
9 actually in 1992.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Isailovic. I'm going to consult
11 with my colleagues.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ms. Isailovic, would you then turn to the
14 next issue, which is -- yes. We have heard you on number 131. The next
15 issue is number 11 and number 19, and the submission was that the events
16 in those documents are far removed from Sarajevo. From number 19, the
17 submission is that the 5th Corps operated in Bihac, which is in fact
18 closer to the border with Croatia. Number 11, it is said, has nothing to
19 do with Sarajevo.
20 Let us start with number 11.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We're
22 looking for number 19 at the moment. I'll start with number 11, 11D.
23 This document dates September 18, 1994. It's a document that has
24 been translated, fortunately. And I invite the Bench and the Prosecution
25 to read the English version of this document, if we have it.
1 So as you read on this document -- I'll read it in B/C/S, because
2 I have the B/C/S version.
3 "The area of the 1st Corps," this mention of the 1st Corps
4 already gives reference to the region dealt with in this document. It is
5 the region of Sarajevo, because the 1st Corps of the ABiH army, according
6 to Mr. Karavelic, for example, what he said was the commander of the 1st
7 Corps, well, we know from this witness that the AOR of the 1st Corps of
8 the ABiH encompassed the Sarajevo region. It's the region that we see
9 here on this map in the courtroom. This was the AOR of the 1st Corps of
10 the ABiH, and for the other side of the SRK.
11 Furthermore, as I see the document, there's another reason that
12 makes it relevant. It shows that there was a manipulation going on,
13 manipulation with the UN, because here we can see -- we can actually read
14 -- have to see whether the military activities can be presented, I guess,
15 to the officials of the UN as a response to Chetnik provocations. And
16 this document is signed by Mr. Rasim Delic, the commander of the ABiH
17 during the period of indictment against General Milosevic.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask you to explain how, if we accept that
19 this document suggests that ABiH manipulated the UNPROFOR during the
20 conflict, how does that affect any issue of the criminal liability of
21 Mr. Milosevic?
22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.
23 General Milosevic has been accused of a shelling and sniping campaign
24 against civilians, an accused of the terror that this bred into the
25 civilian population in the Sarajevo area. And the Defence case is as
1 follows: These were military activities among two warring factions.
2 Furthermore, it was also a blatant difference between the two warring
3 factions as far as the period of the indictment is concerned. And the
4 Defence case is that during the indictment period, the ABiH army was the
5 strongest party to the conflict, much stronger than the other side. And
6 throughout the entire period this side, the ABiH, managed to obtain some
7 kind of support from the international community, notably the officials of
8 the UN and the representatives of the UN.
9 And the Defence submits that when you read these documents, and
10 this is written and signed by the senior officers of the ABiH army, that
11 they had in mind the idea of manipulating the international community. It
12 was their project. They wanted to be represented as the victim in the
13 conflict, whereas this was not the case. And this is blatant in other
14 documents that were chosen by Defence for this very purpose.
15 Of course we would have wanted to call more officers of the ABiH
16 army in order to get their comments on the content of these documents.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean, then, Ms. Isailovic, that the
18 relationship between the ABiH and UNPROFOR was such that the Chamber ought
19 to be skeptical about the reports offered by UNPROFOR on the conflict?
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this is not the
21 entirety, the whole idea that the Defence has on this. But part of the
22 problem is, and as we've already seen throughout the Prosecution's case
23 notably there was this manipulation, the threats made to the UN
24 participants. So on many occasions, you know, these representatives have
25 testified in that -- in that direction. And then on the -- now we have
1 decisions. You know, we have these reports that show that this was
2 deliberate, that this manipulation was deliberate to have this
3 misrepresentation to sort of instrumentalise the UN when they were
4 necessary and then, on the other hand, to detain them or block them when
5 it wasn't -- when the side didn't want them to see what was actually in
6 store. This is the case of Defence.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you move then to numbers 8, 9, and 14.
8 What was your submission on 8, 9 and 14? I don't seem to have it
9 in my notes. Ms. Edgerton I'm speaking to.
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I have them. I have them. I
11 wrote them down. I have the case of -- the submission of the Prosecution.
12 So my colleague from Prosecution said that she did not understand
13 why it was a manipulation, and according to her the documents were not
14 qualified correctly, as well as the report. For example, number 8. So
15 here, number 8. This is a protest made by the ABiH, Mr. Delic. And when
16 reading this document, you can conclude that before the document was
17 actually drafted there's been a protest, and then Mr. Brinkman is
18 answering Mr. Delic, telling him that there was no provocation made by the
19 army of Republika Srpska. And then even in this surrounding area there
20 was no presence of the -- of the RSK and that this was an attack made on
21 the forces of the UN.
22 So maybe it's not manipulation that comes out of this document,
23 but it's a document that shows us Mr. Brinkman understood that he was
24 being manipulated upstream; and therefore he drafts this document after
25 the fact in order to -- to foil this manipulation, to circumvent this
1 manipulation that the army was trying to pull on him and pull on the UN
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we have the document, document
4 number 9. We have the document here in English. Would you show us how it
5 substantiates the point that you are making of -- of manipulation.
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, earlier I talked
7 about document number 8. You invited me -- you asked me to talk about
8 number 8, so it was number 8, and I will now move to 9.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have a document dated the 15th of August from
10 Brigadier General Van Baal. Is that the one you're referring to?
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was referring to a
12 document signed by General Brinkman, document 8D on the 65 ter list
13 provide by the Defence. This is a document I made a submission about
15 There's another document called 9D. It's on the same list. This
16 is another document. Ms. Edgerton raised an objection about the two
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us just concentrate on 8, then, and
19 just remind me of your submission on 8, as to how it demonstrates
20 manipulation of UNPROFOR.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I will repeat
22 what I said then. This is a document written after humanitarian convoys
23 were shot at, convoys that had been sent by the international community.
24 They were shot at. Mr. Brinkman and the UN concluded that these were
25 direct shots coming from the ABiH army. Then he wrote this letter. But
1 when reading this letter, you can conclude that this earlier had been
2 presented as provocations made by the RSK, which is why he answers in
3 paragraph 2 of this letter -- you have the English version.
4 [In English] "There was no BSA provocation nor were there any BSA
5 in the immediate area for the mortar to be targeting. This was a direct
6 and deliberate attack against UNPROFOR."
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let us assume that UNPROFOR -- what I don't
8 understand is, how does the document on its face show manipulation?
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, if General
10 Brinkman wrote that there were no provocation and writes that to
11 Mr. Rasim Delic, this was probably something that had been done earlier.
12 Otherwise, why mention provocation in the letter if it was not the
13 response of the ABiH, which was sort of treated as -- by the international
14 community with privileges. For example, we -- Witness W46, an officer,
15 which I cross-examined, and he answered and told me that there used to be
16 double standards when it came to dealing with the behaviour of the two
17 warring factions.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Aren't you inviting to us speculate, Ms.
20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In any case, personally, and I
21 believe that Mr. Tapuskovic is of the same opinion as I am, we both
22 believe that this shows that these shells had been shot by the ABiH,
23 whereas --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, it's unremarkable that Mr.
1 Tapuskovic shares your opinion. But I think we have to take the break
3 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll proceed as follows: We'll terminate this
6 exercise. What we have done so far has been quite useful. We have an
7 idea of the contents, the general contents of the documents, but there is
8 no point, in my view, continuing in this way. The Chamber will have to
9 examine the documents and come to a conclusion as to their admission. We
10 will do that in relation to the 86 or 76, whatever the number is,
11 documents that have been translated and give our decision shortly,
12 certainly by next week. And those that haven't been translated, then as
13 soon as they are translated the Chamber will examine them and give its
14 decision. We should have that translation in another two or three weeks.
15 But before I dismiss the witness, I'd like to find out whether
16 Mr. Tapuskovic or Ms. Edgerton has any further questions of the witness or
17 any comments.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I
19 certainly don't have any additional questions. Have I understood you
20 correctly that the witness is free to go? There is no reason for her to
21 stay in The Hague. She has some family commitments. I gather that
22 there's no need for her to await any decision. Can the witness count on
23 that and leave tomorrow? Is she indeed free to go?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: As far as I'm concerned she could leave this
1 Ms. Edgerton, let me hear from you.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. I have absolutely no questions
3 of the witness, just one query of Your Honours to make sure that your
4 direction includes those documents which are only partially translated, as
5 well as those documents that are untranslated. Am I --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean?
7 MS. EDGERTON: There were, according to my list, 14 documents for
8 which the translation was incomplete and 62 which were not translated.
9 And I would ask Your Honours if your direction could include as well those
10 14 where only sections of the document had been translated.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We want to have those documents which are
12 only partially translated fully translated.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. Nothing further.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I explain something, Your
15 Honours? Most of the documents were admitted earlier on partly, and it
16 wasn't insisted on having the translations right away. Some of the
17 documents have been translated, especially those which deal with the
18 expenditure of ammunition per days by the BH army. The majority of the
19 documents only contain figures concerning bullets fired, weapons used, and
20 generally about the expenditure of ammunition. There is nothing essential
21 of any other nature in these documents that would require their
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say some have already been marked for
24 identification, or you said admitted? Well, if they've already been
25 admitted, then we don't need to look at them.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, more than 10
2 documents were certainly admitted, which speak of the expenditure of
3 ammunition on the part of the BH army. But those we have tendered now,
4 have not been admitted but they speak of the same matters, the expenditure
5 of ammunition on the part of the BH army on a given day.
6 We have shown and demonstrated the relevance of the evidence
7 through the witness. You have accepted that, and we have now indicated a
8 number of such documents which show to what extent in the critical period
9 of the offensive the BH army engaged in combat activities.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems that we must be told which of these
12 documents have already been admitted.
13 Ms. Edgerton.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I finish?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Out of the documents we tendered
17 now, several were marked for identification and others have not been
18 tendered for admission at all so far. Other documents of the same type
19 were admitted. We discussed those documents on several occasions, and at
20 the time you accepted their relevance. We are merely adding to that list
21 of documents some more documents -- documents which speak of the
22 expenditure of ammunition on the part of the BH army which serves to show
23 to what extent the BH army was engaged in these combat activities.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, going on the list that I've received,
2 four documents had been marked for identification, numbers 76, 103, 121,
3 and 251. Four.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Marked MFI.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Those four were marked for identification, in
6 fact I think one of them had already been admitted but I'm not definite.
7 In any case, those four. I'm quite sure of those numbers.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question, Ms. Edgerton, is why were they
10 marked for identification? Was it a translation problem or some other
12 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to two of those four, because I
13 recognise them, it was a translation issue, and they were subsequently
14 tendered, those two, through witnesses who could speak directly to their
15 contents. I can't speak to the other two that I don't recognise
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What two are those?
18 MS. EDGERTON: If you could indulge me for a moment, Your Honour.
19 I have to flip through the list again.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MS. EDGERTON: D100, number 76 on the list. I stand to be
22 corrected by the registrar, but I understood D100 has been admitted
23 through someone who could speak to its contents. And number 103 on the
24 list, if I'm not mistaken, which I've written over the top of it but I
25 think is D144. I think has been admitted, in fact, if I'm not mistaken,
1 D121 on the list, D64, may already have been admitted as well. Again, all
2 through people who could speak to the contents.
3 My colleague Ms. Bosnjakovic is correcting me on one of these
5 One of them remains marked for identification that's D64, number
6 121 on this list.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of the four
9 documents, one was admitted as D313, marked for identification until
10 translated. It is listed under number 251 on this list. The other three
11 were stricken off at some point for other reasons, and we want
12 them -- want to tender them into evidence at this point.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I have a ruling to make now, but let me
15 hear Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: It was only to say that my colleague Mr. Registrar
17 has corrected my mathematics and can advise this Chamber on which of those
18 four documents remains MFI and which have been admitted.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, my ruling will take that into account.
20 All the documents that haven't been translated must be translated
21 in order for the Chamber to give its decision on their admissibility, and
22 that includes those documents which are -- which have been marked for
23 identification pending translation.
24 Now, as to whether a document marked for identification has been
25 so marked is an issue that will be resolved after examination of the
1 relevant documents by counsel and the Trial Chamber staff and the court
2 deputy and ultimately to be decided by the Chamber.
3 Now, that concludes this exercise as far as I see.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So unless there are any other comments, this part
6 of the -- this witness's evidence is -- is closed. In fact, the witness's
7 evidence is -- is at an end, and the matter will be resolved in the way
8 that I have indicated. By next week, mid-next week, the Chamber will give
9 its decision on the admission of those documents that have been translated
10 and will give its decision as soon as the other documents which have not
11 been translated are translated.
12 Witness, I'd like to thank you for coming to The Hague to testify,
13 and your evidence is now at an end, and you may leave.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, Mr. Tapuskovic.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have any
18 witnesses for today. They are supposed to arrive this evening or
19 tomorrow. We were counting on Mr. Demurenko, who was supposed to come,
20 and we did not wish to call witnesses who would then have to stay over the
21 weekend since the plan was that Mr. Demurenko would be here. This has led
22 to a situation in which we now do not have a witness, but this is, I
23 believe, the first time in all these months that half an hour before
24 adjournment, immediately before a weekend, we are left without a witness.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, but next week make an effort --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. But next week make an effort to
3 ensure that all the Court's time is fully utilised and have reserve or
4 back-up witnesses ready.
5 We are adjourned until Monday of next week, 9.00 a.m.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.24 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day
8 of July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.