Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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1 Thursday, 15 March, 2001

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 4.19 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ladies and

7 gentlemen; good afternoon to the technical booth, the interpreters, the

8 registry staff.

9 Madam Registrar, can you call the case, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. It is case number

11 IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecution versus Stanislav Galic.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances.

13 The Prosecution first, please.

14 MR. IERACE: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Mark

15 Ierace. I appear for the Prosecution, together with, on my left, Michael

16 Blaxill, trial attorney; on my immediate right, Edel Guzman, our case

17 manager; on my far right, Chester Stamp, who is a trial attorney replacing

18 Sureta Chana, who has left the case; and behind me, legal officer, Stefan

19 Waespi.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

21 Now the Defence, please. Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good afternoon. My

23 name is Mara Pilipovic. With my legal assistant, Mr. Savo Pilipovic, I

24 represent the defence of General Stanislav Galic.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am

Page 315

1 really very, very sorry for this delay. I don't have the right words to

2 express my apologies to you. Anyway, the words are lacking. It's not

3 really -- it is really my fault and not the fault of any other people, and

4 I do apologise. So let us begin now.

5 We are here in accordance with the Scheduling Order of the 21st of

6 February, 2001. Therefore, today's hearing will be a Status Conference to

7 analyse and see where we stand with respect to Rule 65 bis of the Rules of

8 Procedure. We will also consider the motion of the Prosecution for travel

9 to Sarajevo, dated the 14th of July, 2000, and perhaps I would suggest

10 that we begin with this point, after which we will have the Status

11 Conference proper to see how we stand with respect to the provisions of

12 Rule 65 ter.

13 So we come to the motion for travel to Sarajevo. Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, before I --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. I note that on some past

17 occasions submissions in this Chamber on that topic have been

18 confidential. Does Your Honour wish that these proceedings this afternoon

19 be confidential as well?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that there may be

21 aspects which would require that we go into private session, and this

22 would probably be preferable even for the Defence, so let us go into

23 private session for a few minutes, please.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now we can pass on to our

23 Status Conference. I should like to say that I have in mind a sort of

24 general scheme for this Status Conference.

25 We will follow the order from the Scheduling Order, but in my

Page 327

1 mind, the main objective is to take stock of the situation on the basis of

2 the brief filed by the Prosecution, and we thank you very much for your

3 cooperation. I also have in mind that perhaps we should have in mind

4 during our debates the Celebici ruling and the Tadic appeals rulings as

5 well, and if we can get any advantage from agreements or, rather, judicial

6 notice. Also, as a major point, is the question of reciprocal

7 communication. We know that we still haven't completed this, but we must

8 always view things in their entirety, in the light of these three main

9 points, if I may call them that.

10 So before embarking upon the main issues of the Status Conference,

11 I should like to suggest a plan of work for the months to come. So that

12 the Chamber may supervise the preparation of the case, I suggest that the

13 parties meet in my presence, that is, in the presence of the Pre-Trial

14 Judge, once a month up till July in order to discuss the progress made.

15 Each of those Status Conferences will be devoted to different issues,

16 bearing in mind the objectives and contents of Rule 65 ter [Realtime

17 transcript read in error "64 ter"].

18 Allow me to explain. But before referring to that content, I

19 would like to say that I suggest that the parties meet in my presence each

20 month, but there is nothing to prevent the parties from having meetings

21 outside this courtroom and not necessarily in the presence of General

22 Galic. Some of those working meetings could even be coordinated --

23 MR. PILIPOVIC: I have only one small objection about

24 translation. Now we see that it reads "Rule 64 ter" and I heard "65

25 ter."

Page 328

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. Thank

2 you very much. We're talking about 65 ter. I'm sure the court reporters

3 will correct that at the end.

4 As I was saying, there is nothing to prevent the holding of

5 working meetings amongst us, and those meetings may be coordinated by the

6 legal officer once instructions or directives have been given for such

7 working meetings.

8 Let me tell you why I'm saying that. My experience tells me that

9 it is always important for the Prosecutor and Defence counsel, that is,

10 both counsel, should meet and discuss things together. If we limit our

11 discussions to meetings in the courtroom, we hear each other, yes; but

12 from the point of view of productivity, of achieving agreements, very

13 often the progress is not as one would wish.

14 If one goes to a certain place and meets to discuss a certain

15 matter, achieve a certain result, and on the basis of the result, then we

16 could say, "Have you considered this situation or this hypothesis or

17 another situation?" and then this date and the contents that I have

18 indicated will be a kind of turning point between previous meetings and

19 the following meetings. It will be a kind of follow-up to things we have

20 discussed here. As I have said, those meetings can be held outside the

21 courtroom. They would not be formal meetings but really working

22 meetings.

23 What is the content which I feel needs to be organised in this

24 way? It is always as a suggestion that I am making this to the parties.

25 If you look at Rule 65 ter, you have paragraph (E), which tells you the

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1 objectives of the Pre-Trial Conference, and (ii) and (iii), which talk, in

2 a general nature, of the Prosecution case, the matters of fact and law

3 which are contested and those which are not in dispute, and also agreement

4 on disagreements. I think this is very important. Why? Because it is

5 agreement on disputed issues that will define the actual objective of the

6 debate.

7 Therefore, I would suggest, as a first objective of the discussion

8 between the Prosecution and the Defence, that that should be the first

9 point. Why am I saying this? Because we have suggested to the Prosecutor

10 to give us the pre-trial brief, which they have done, even though it is

11 provisional, so that they may use it as a tool, as an instrument of their

12 work.

13 What I think is that in order to facilitate the work of the

14 Defence, instead of saying that we are going to discuss the whole

15 pre-trial issue, we are going to debate and analyse this particular issue,

16 but it is a set of issues which have a certain logic and follow logically

17 on to each subsequent stage. Things are linked together, as you know.

18 If we analyse well everything on which agreement has been reached,

19 things that are contested, if we are aware of the Prosecution case and if

20 we reach conclusions on that and disputed matters of fact and law, we are

21 ready to go on to (iv), that is, everything that has to do with the

22 testimony, that is, the list of witnesses the Prosecution intends to call,

23 indicating several things.

24 But instead of talking about a list of witnesses, we would also

25 discuss the entire testimony, the testimony of witnesses who will come to

Page 331

1 the courtroom, the witnesses that will appear through affidavits, expert

2 witness statements, depositions, video testimony; therefore, everything

3 that has to do with the testimony. Instead of talking about a list of

4 witnesses, we will be talking about the evidence which will prove the

5 points which are in dispute. As soon as we reach conclusions on the basis

6 of this methodology of meetings that I have suggested, we will have come

7 to the next major topic of Rule 65 ter, that is, a list of exhibits.

8 Again, instead of talking about a list of exhibits, I would suggest that

9 we discuss, in a broader sense, every kind of document; for example,

10 expert reports, disclosure of lists of exhibits.

11 You see, there would be a logical sequence and a division of

12 several areas which, in my view, would facilitate the life of the

13 Prosecution, but also and above all, the work of the Defence. Why? I

14 would like to facilitate the work of the parties and, of course, also of

15 the Chamber and myself, so that we should be quite clear that we will be

16 discussing the whole issue of the pre-trial stage but in segments that are

17 linked to one another.

18 So if we agree on a particular point of fact and law, and

19 especially if we agree on facts, I can go on to discussing how we can

20 prove those facts through evidence, and we will discuss that alone. And

21 then it would be logical to address everything that has to do with the

22 evidence, that is, the documents.

23 So instead of analysing each of those points now, where we stand

24 in relation to this or that, I would suggest that we begin to work

25 together in this way that I have just described. So I leave that

Page 332

1 suggestion with you and I would like to hear your reaction. But, as I

2 have just said, we are going to have a meeting every month but that means

3 that we might have two meetings, for instance, before the meeting here in

4 the courtroom, we could have informal meetings in my office or somewhere

5 else, with the parties; the presence of General Galic is not necessary.

6 He will be able to follow progress made because we will be coming back

7 here in the courtroom every month. So we would have these informal

8 meetings with the assistance of the legal officers. So, as I have just

9 said, there is the content side, which I have divided up into three

10 segments, and then the methodology aspect. The courtroom will be the

11 place where we will share information about everything we have agreed

12 upon, and even the meetings that will be held outside the courtroom will

13 always be reported upon so that all the information would be available.

14 So that is my suggestion and I would like to hear your reaction to

15 these suggestions, because I have said, the objective is to reach July and

16 have the case ready for trial by then. I have already told you that this

17 Chamber will certainly not be opening the trial, but it is the duty of

18 this Chamber to leave things well-prepared for whoever it will be that

19 will be trying the case.

20 So, Mr. Ierace, what is your response?

21 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, in relation to the matters of law, the

22 provisional pre-trial brief provides an ideal vehicle for discussion

23 between the Prosecution and Defence with a view to narrowing what the

24 issues are in terms of the law.

25 In relation to the evidence, might I respectfully suggest that a

Page 333

1 convenient way to approach that would be to do so by subheadings of

2 evidence, for example, one particular monthly meeting might consider the

3 evidence which pertains to the scheduled sniping incidents. The Defence

4 could indicate which parts of the evidence of the sniping incidents it

5 takes exception to, in other words, which parts it has no objection to and

6 which parts it does, which parts it requires the Prosecution to prove by

7 the calling of sworn evidence or the tendering of exhibits. That process,

8 whilst it would involve considerable time on the part of the Prosecution

9 and Defence leading up to the monthly meeting, would predictably not

10 involve nearly as much time in the chamber and would ultimately save much

11 time during the course of the trial.

12 There would be, it follows, four monthly meetings or

13 eight bi-monthly meetings between now and July, and there is a -- there is

14 extensive evidentiary material that would have to be covered during the

15 course of those meetings. I respectfully submit that perhaps, for the

16 first meeting, we focus on a relatively small body of evidence because I

17 anticipate that in that first meeting we will be refining the process of

18 going through the evidence.

19 Since my friend has the Pre-Trial brief, there would be no

20 impediment to the Defence commencing its review of the statements of law

21 which are contained within that document, that is, the provisional

22 Pre-Trial brief. That amplifies the law which is relied upon as set out

23 in the indictment. Perhaps each meeting could consider one aspect of the

24 law or one section of the Pre-Trial brief which relates to statements of

25 law, as well as a particular body of evidence.

Page 334

1 A convenient body of evidence for the first such meeting perhaps

2 may be the remaining sniping incidents, or at least, say, ten sniping

3 incidents. Perhaps my friend and I could agree upon ten - we are meeting

4 tomorrow, as it is, at 2.00 - and by correspondence inform the Court which

5 particular ten sniping incidents we propose to deal with at the first

6 monthly meeting. That could be combined with an aspect of the law which

7 is covered by the Pre-Trial brief.

8 Your Honour, I offer that as merely a suggestion as to how we

9 might proceed. And whilst that is not much in terms of what has to be

10 covered over eight meetings, I anticipate that the process will become

11 refined, and that will enable us to cover more of the evidentiary material

12 in matters of law as we progress. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, please.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my friend just said

16 that we are going to hold a meeting tomorrow afternoon at 2.00 p.m., and

17 bearing in mind your points, which we accept fully, we will come up with a

18 schedule that would incorporate your proposals.

19 Regarding the submission on the 23rd of February, we believe that

20 it will help the Defence prepare its case, but it is also clear that it

21 does not contain points of fact, even though it does contain points of

22 law.

23 My friend also mentioned in his letter of the 14th about the

24 difficulties that they are encountering. They are similar to the ones

25 encountered by the Defence. I believe that tomorrow in the meeting we

Page 335

1 will come up with a plan which we will be able to then follow.

2 I would also like to inform the Trial Chamber that pursuant to

3 point 1 of your order ordering disclosure, the Defence has provided

4 certain material to the OTP which my investigators were able to collect in

5 the last month and a half. I would also like to point out that there are

6 certain difficulties in gathering this material, because the Sarajevo

7 Romanija Corps has been disbanded. We have information that part of that

8 material has been destroyed, part has been lost, but the Defence will do

9 its utmost to disclose all the material which it gathers, pursuant to Rule

10 66(A) and 68.

11 Also, I received information from my friends that part of the

12 material which is indispensable to the Defence for its further preparation

13 I will able to receive by 6 April of this year. We expect that jointly we

14 will be able to focus on working together, and, as we agreed today,

15 tomorrow we will focus on facts on which we can agree and which are in

16 dispute. This will be one of the foci of our meeting tomorrow, and I

17 think we will use subsequent meetings to further these issues.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understood correctly, you

19 agree, in general terms, with this plan of work that I have suggested.

20 Mr. Ierace, let me mention another issue. If you agree with this

21 proposition, that is one question. And another is: I believe that you

22 will be having a meeting tomorrow, or shortly, and you will be discussing

23 a timetable in accordance with the instructions of the Pre-Trial Judge.

24 So my other question is whether you would accept that the legal officers

25 may be present with you to help with the organisational aspects and the

Page 336

1 scheduling aspects. Those are my two questions: agreement with this plan

2 and presence of the legal officer for organisational assistance.

3 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I do agree with the plan, and in

4 relation to the presence of legal officers, does Your Honour have in mind

5 legal officers of the Chamber?

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Mr. Olivier Fourmy.

7 MR. IERACE: I have no objection to that, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, same question to

9 you.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand your

11 proposal to mean that the legal officer should attend our meeting so that

12 they would know about our schedule of meetings; in other words, that we

13 would inform them on when these meetings would be held. Is my

14 understanding correct?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think you were going to

16 discuss the organisation of work, and instead of me issuing a Scheduling

17 Order off the bat, I would prefer the parties, together with the legal

18 officer, to draft that Scheduling Order themselves, on the basis of which

19 we will continue to work. So the presence of the legal officer is simply

20 to help in the organisation and execution of this work plan.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and that is fine, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now I must ask Mr. Olivier

24 Fourmy whether he is available and willing. I see him nodding in the

25 affirmative. He has no microphone to use, so that's fine. I think that

Page 337

1 having established this work plan and a schedule, I hope we will be able

2 to reach July, once we have gone through all the stages, and we have this

3 working tool provided by the Prosecution, so I think we can now really

4 move on into a stage of greater effectiveness.

5 I don't think that we have any other specific issues to raise

6 regarding the Status Conference. Is there anything else that anyone would

7 like to raise?

8 Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. There are a few matters.

10 Firstly, in relation to evidence by videolink, that is something which the

11 Prosecution favours, in particular, from Sarajevo. In relation to four of

12 the sniping incidents, which are not in question otherwise, there are

13 witnesses in each of the four who would either prefer or who would insist

14 upon giving videolink evidence, in other words, not travelling to The

15 Hague. The reasons for that range from age - one witness is aged 81 - to

16 family reasons and to health. If it is acceptable to the Chamber, I have

17 in mind that those witnesses, and perhaps others, could give their

18 evidence from within the United Nations field office in Sarajevo so that

19 they could be examined and cross-examined and shown exhibits by videolink

20 from the Trial Chamber here at The Hague.

21 Your Honour, there is one remaining matter. There have been some

22 discussions between my friend and I in relation to an order of the Chamber

23 dated the 5th of June last year. In that order, the Chamber established a

24 protocol to apply when one party wishes to question either a witness or

25 potential witness of the other party. It appears at paragraph 7 of the

Page 338

1 orders made on that date. Effectively, it requires the interviewing party

2 to contact the other party, given in writing and allowing reasonable

3 notice. It also requires that if the witness to be interviewed so

4 requests, then the party who intends to call that witness may be present

5 at any such meetings.

6 Your Honour, many of the individuals whose identity has been

7 disclosed from one side to the other clearly fall into the category of

8 being a witness or potential witness, but beyond those two categories

9 there are many names which are not so easily categorised.

10 My friend and I are content at this stage to attempt to resolve

11 that issue between ourselves and in due course inform the Chamber of the

12 result of those discussions so that there is a public record of it.

13 However, if we are unable to resolve it, if it is a matter which requires

14 an order of the Court, then so be it, and we would seek leave to approach

15 the Chamber on short notice to have that issue resolved, because if it is

16 not, it will impede the investigations by both the Prosecution and the

17 Defence. It does need quick resolution. We are hopeful that we can

18 resolve that tomorrow afternoon. If not, would Your Honour allow us to

19 contact the Chamber to seek an early hearing date of that issue? Thank

20 you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, quite, Mr. Ierace. We are

22 quite ready to hear your submissions, if necessary.

23 Perhaps, Ms. Pilipovic, you can agree with that.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, Your Honour. My

25 friend and I have agreed that tomorrow we will attempt to meet and find a

Page 339

1 position that is jointly acceptable. I would like to take the opportunity

2 and raise the question of the experts whom the Defence would try to call.

3 We approached the registry with the request: a ballistic expert for

4 shelling, an expert for sniping, a military expert, and a historian.

5 The Defence estimates that the amount of time needed for these

6 experts to produce their findings, taking into account the scope of this

7 case and the time frame, this time frame would in total be about 520 hours

8 for all experts involved. However, we have not received a decision on the

9 part of the registry so far, but we need to proceed with our preparations,

10 and we would seek assistance from the Trial Chamber to help us speed up

11 this process of decision-making on this issue.

12 The second issue that I wanted to raise has to do with your

13 decision of the 5th of June, page 3, paragraph 4, regarding disclosure of

14 material and confidential information which the Defence would provide to

15 the experts. We would like to ask whether we need special authority by

16 the Trial Chamber to turn over these confidential materials in our

17 possession to the experts, the experts that the Defence is seeking to call

18 on behalf of General Galic.

19 These are the issues which I have raised, and perhaps I can also

20 expect your response in writing or perhaps also in another Status

21 Conference. However, it would be in the interests of the Defence to

22 receive such ruling in writing, preferably.

23 Also, I would like to ask about the decision on our cameramen

24 which would be coming with us to the Sarajevo trip. The issue is the fact

25 that they may have some problems in going to Sarajevo. I don't know what

Page 340

1 the effect would be of the presence of the Defence with their own camera

2 crew in the city of Sarajevo. Perhaps we may need your assistance in

3 that. Should we turn to the registry for this? Or perhaps the Trial

4 Chamber can go to the registry itself so that we get the permission to

5 have our own crew film all the locations mentioned in the indictment so

6 that my friends from the Prosecution and myself could have this material

7 developed in time for the trial and so that we could adequately prepare

8 for the trial.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. I

10 don't know whether Mr. Ierace has any reaction or comments to make on

11 matters raised by Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, if it assists Ms. Pilipovic in her

13 dealings with the registry, and indeed if it assists Your Honour, the

14 Prosecution does intend to call experts in the area of ballistics.

15 Indeed, we intend to call an expert or experts in relation to artillery,

16 as well as the capability of small arms such as rifles and machine-guns.

17 That may be of some assistance to my friend in terms of arguing to the

18 Registry that there is a prima facie entitlement to respond to our expert

19 evidence. We do not intend to call an historian so I can't assist her

20 with that.

21 In relation to the application of the orders of the 5th of June

22 last year to the provision of information to an expert, my friend referred

23 to paragraph 4 of the orders. I think that paragraph 4 is confined to

24 nonpublic information, that is, information which has come into the

25 possession of the Defence from the Prosecution which is then deemed to be

Page 341

1 of a confidential nature. I have difficulty in imagining what such

2 information would be relevant or useful to an expert, certainly a

3 ballistics expert or an historian.

4 Your Honour, in relation to the third point raised by my friend,

5 that is, securing ease of access to Sarajevo, naturally, it is in the

6 interests of justice in this trial that both sides have equal access to

7 all relevant sites in Sarajevo, and the Prosecution acknowledges that

8 proposition. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Ierace.

11 I think we have several points here that we need to clarify

12 further to be able to work on them. But I think there are also aspects

13 which can be an object of discussion at our next meeting. The question of

14 video testimony, we can develop that when we come to the question of

15 testimony in general. But, of course, there are things that can be

16 prepared in advance.

17 The question of expert witnesses, Ms. Pilipovic, this is a problem

18 that you should resolve with the Registry. If you are not satisfied with

19 the decision of the Registry, then you must address the President of the

20 Tribunal, because the Chamber does not have any powers over the Registry.

21 This may be strange for people from the civil law system, but that is how

22 it is. The administrative powers are held by the President of the

23 Tribunal. If you ask the Registry for something and it does not respond

24 in the way you expected it to, you have to address yourself to the

25 President of the Tribunal.

Page 342

1 So I think that is all we can do today. I believe you will be

2 meeting tomorrow to discuss logistical and practical matters. You will

3 tell Mr. Fourmy where and when you will meet so he can join you regarding

4 the schedule, and after that we can prepare a series of questions which we

5 can develop jointly.

6 I think that a summary that we can make of what we have done today

7 would be that we have at least identified more or less structured contents

8 and more or less structured methodology which together can help us to make

9 progress in preparing the case. I think there is also a novel element and

10 that is the presence of the legal officer of the Chamber as an element in

11 between the Trial Chamber and the parties, and I think this can be an

12 asset which can contribute to further progress.

13 Before adjourning, I would like to address General Galic.

14 General Galic, can you stand, please?

15 [The accused stands up]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wish to ask you what you know

17 I'm going to ask you, because that is part of our Rules, to ask you how

18 things are, how you are feeling, and how your conditions of detention

19 are.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to thank

21 you for asking these questions. I have nothing special to say. Now the

22 Status Conferences are frequent enough and not so much changes during that

23 period in the Detention Unit. But thank you for asking.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, General Galic. You

25 may be seated.

Page 343

1 [The accused sits down]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So tomorrow I can say that we

3 will be meeting, though indirectly, and further progress will be made. I

4 really hope that some important results will be achieved for our next

5 Status Conference, that there will be some good agreements and some good

6 disagreements; that is, we will be able to identify clearly the things

7 that divide us and the points that we have in common so that the case can

8 be well-prepared when the time comes.

9 I wish you success in your work tomorrow, and until our next

10 meeting, this hearing is adjourned.

11 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

12 5.31 p.m.

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