1 Wednesday, 13 June 2001
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.04 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ladies and
7 gentlemen, to the technical booth, the interpreters, the registry staff.
8 Could the registrar call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecutor versus
10 Stanislav Galic.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could we
12 have the appearances, please. The Prosecution first.
13 MR. IERACE: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Mark Ierace.
14 I appear this afternoon together with Michael Blaxill to my left, member
15 of the trial legal team, and Edel Guzman, the case manager for this case.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
17 much. For the Defence, please.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I
19 am attorney Mara Pilipovic, representing the accused, General Stanislav
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are here for a Status
22 Conference, and as you know, regarding the Scheduling Order, we are going
23 to discuss the progress achieved in the preparation of the trial, that is
24 the first item; and the second agenda item that will be addressed in
25 private session, I'm not going to mention it, but the parties are aware of
1 it from the Scheduling Order.
2 So we're going to begin with our first item, that is, the Status
3 Conference. As indicated in the order that I have mentioned, the Chamber
4 hopes that the parties have made progress in the preparation of the case.
5 I wish to recall that this work is being done on the basis of the
6 provisional pre-trial brief of the Prosecution, and I should also like to
7 recall that the Scheduling Order envisages three categories of subjects
8 regarding the pre-trial stage which the parties are expected to address in
9 the course of these Status Conferences.
10 So we're going to begin with the first category that has to do
11 with the following subjects: The nature of the case for the Prosecution;
12 the agreements between the parties, and the points of fact or law which
13 the parties have possibly already reviewed; and one could, perhaps, reach
14 the third point, and that is the points of contest, what we call agreement
15 on disagreements or points we disagree on.
16 So that is the first step of the pre-trial plan that we have
17 agreed on, and regarding this first group of subjects that I have
18 mentioned, I should like to give the floor to Mr. Ierace, and after that,
19 possibly to Ms. Pilipovic.
20 Mr. Ierace, please, where do we stand with regard to these
21 questions? Your floor.
22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, my friend and I
23 met for two hours yesterday afternoon and for an hour prior to this Status
24 Conference this afternoon. We plan on meeting for a further two hours
25 tomorrow and Friday afternoon as well. Mr. Fourmy attended our meeting in
1 its closing stages yesterday and also intends to attend our meeting on
2 Friday afternoon.
3 Your Honour, we have made some progress. The Prosecution provided
4 the Defence with 96 proposed stipulations of fact some months ago. The
5 Defence has responded in writing to approximately 36 of those proposed
6 stipulations. There was some further correspondence from the Prosecution
7 in an attempt to narrow the issues and that culminated in a two-hour
8 discussion yesterday of those 36 propositions. Approximately nine remain
9 disagreed between the parties.
10 I anticipate that it will take an additional half an hour to
11 clarify whether any of those might be agreed. It would follow that it
12 would take approximately five hours of additional meeting between the
13 Prosecution and Defence to deal with the remaining proposed stipulations
14 of fact. My friend has indicated that she is prepared, once we have
15 completed that exercise, to move on to proposed adjudicated facts which
16 are relevant to this trial.
17 Your Honour, my friend has also informed me that she will not be
18 ready to discuss either the indictment or the pre-trial brief beyond the
19 overlap between those documents and the proposed stipulations of fact
20 until we have completed, that is, until the Prosecution has completed
21 disclosure in the form of reciprocal disclosure.
22 I have informed Ms. Pilipovic that I anticipate that reciprocal
23 disclosure will be completed by and large by the end of July. By that
24 qualification, I mean that there will always be a trickle of further
25 disclosure both by the Prosecution and by the Defence, and my friend and I
1 are agreed on that.
2 So as it presently stands, my friend, as I understand it, will not
3 be ready to discuss the indictment and the pre-trial brief until some
4 point after the end of July. She will require time to translate the
5 documents which are disclosed and to obtain instructions.
6 Your Honour, if that comes to pass, that sequence of events, then
7 it raises the question whether there is other work that my friend and I
8 can do in the meantime so as to narrow the issues or at least better
9 define the issues between the Prosecution and Defence.
10 My friend and I have discussed that immediately prior to this
11 afternoon's Status Conference. I have made some suggestions to her as to
12 some areas that perhaps she could proceed with before she has full
13 disclosure. I understand that she intends to discuss those proposed areas
14 with her client, and if there is agreement that we move on to those areas
15 after the stipulations of fact and adjudicated facts, then I would think
16 that there is probably something in the order of ten hours involved in
17 dealing with those issues.
18 Your Honour, that's where we stand at the moment in relation to
19 the timetable. I understand that my friend will seek some further
20 instructions tomorrow morning and, therefore, by tomorrow afternoon, she
21 should be in a position to indicate what is next discussed from her
22 perspective in this pre-trial stage.
23 Given that Mr. Fourmy is unable to attend tomorrow, I nevertheless
24 think it important that there be some communication back, either directly
25 or indirectly, to the Pre-Trial Chamber tomorrow so if there remains an
1 issue as to the pre-trial timetable, then that can be brought to Your
2 Honour's attention.
3 In that regard, I recall Your Honour, at an earlier Status
4 Conference, indicating that there was no reason why we could not meet with
5 Your Honour in Chambers if the development of the case required it, and it
6 may be that we could meet with Mr. Fourmy at a different time tomorrow
7 afternoon if that was possible; alternatively, with Your Honour. Failing
8 that, it may be that there could be some communication with the Trial
9 Chamber either tomorrow afternoon or Friday morning so that if there are
10 any unresolved issues by Friday afternoon, before my friend departs The
11 Hague, then at least there could be some further intervention by the Trial
12 Chamber rather than the matter wait for another four to six weeks.
13 Your Honour, my friend has also indicated that she is available to
14 meet further with the Prosecution around the 20th of July, that is, the
15 latter half of July, and certainly we would be available to meet with her
16 at that point. I understand that she may not be in The Hague right at the
17 end of July when we are ready to hand over the remaining material which is
18 flowing from Project X. That is because of some difficulties with the
19 accused and visits by his family.
20 Your Honour, in terms of how much remains to be disclosed, I have
21 told my friend that approximately one-third of the Project X material has
22 so far been handed over to her, that is, the material which is caught by
23 the specific requests that she has made. That may be of some assistance
24 to the Trial Chamber, as well as my friend, as to how much remains to be
25 done. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Ierace. I think
2 that we need to congratulate you because we see that progress is being
3 made, and I'm sure I will have the opportunity to do the same with respect
4 to Ms. Pilipovic.
5 Am I right or not, Ms. Pilipovic? Do you have any comments to
6 make regarding these questions, and what is your position now?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regarding the
8 pre-trial phase of the case against the accused General Galic, I wish to
9 point out that at the last Status Conference on the 2nd of May, I notified
10 the Chamber that I had received the material promised to me by the
11 Prosecution, which I should have received on the 6th of April, I received
12 it on the 20th of April. Before I arrived at that Status Conference, I
13 managed to leaf through that material, but I didn't have time to study the
15 I also notified you at the time that during the following two
16 weeks, that I would be able to state my position regarding the
17 stipulations of fact which my learned friends and myself agreed that we
18 would start working on, on the 27th of April. And within the time limit I
19 had promised and on which we agreed, that was a period of 15 days, I filed
20 my written response regarding the facts from 14 to 37, and before that, I
21 had already responded to facts from 1 to 14. This is my filing of the
22 18th of May which contains the position of the Defence regarding certain
23 points in the general background and the specific counts. And I received
24 a reply from my learned friend and, as Mr. Ierace has already informed
25 you, we had a meeting yesterday and we agreed to meet again tomorrow and
1 the day after.
2 I also have to tell you that the material that I received on the
3 20th of April is quite voluminous. I have managed to view 33 videotapes
4 and to look through 4223 pages of material. In view of the fact that this
5 material is very important for the Defence of General Galic as these are
6 daily reports sent by UN and UNPROFOR observers, it is absolutely
7 essential for me to have that material translated so as to be able to
8 analyse it together with Mr. Galic, because these are documents which are
9 of decisive importance for the Defence of the General.
10 I also wish to tell you that, further to your instructions of the
11 2nd of May at the Status Conference, I informed the registry that my
12 situation is rather difficult and that this will affect the effectiveness
13 of the preparations of the case. I am working alone with a legal
14 counsellor, whereas the investigators are working very hard on the
15 ground. And my learned friends can confirm that whenever I come here, I
16 bring material with me which I disclose to my learned friends, and these
17 are all important documents which I consider will be useful both for the
18 Prosecution and for the Defence. However, the position of the registry is
19 that, at this stage of the proceedings, I can work alone and that I cannot
20 be granted a co-counsel, and that is one of the reasons that I cannot be
21 as effective as I would like it to be because I have to review each and
22 every document and I have to review it with the General.
23 Also, I have to go into the field very often. Because of the
24 complexity of the case and the period covered by the indictment, which is
25 two years, I have to talk to potential witnesses. So far, I have spoken
1 to at least 50 such potential witnesses.
2 So in view of the fact that my learned friend told me today that
3 the remaining material would be disclosed to me by the end of July, I am
4 unable to respond. I apologise for speaking so quickly. At this point,
5 I'm not able to say when I will be ready to discuss the pre-trial brief
6 and the indictment with my learned friends opposite.
7 I have also informed them today that, in order for our discussions
8 to be more fruitful, I need to visit Sarajevo to prepare the Defence, and
9 this, perhaps, would fit in more appropriately into the second agenda item
10 of today's conference.
11 In any event, I did express my agreement regarding his two
12 proposals for further discussions, and I said that I would inform my
13 learned friends tomorrow, after consulting General Galic, as to whether
14 the Defence at this moment is ready to discuss the propositions made at
15 the meeting today.
16 I will be here today, tomorrow, and Friday. We have meetings
17 planned, as you are aware, as you have been informed by Mr. Ierace, and
18 further to the agreement we reach tomorrow, we will inform Mr. Fourmy or
19 yourself, Your Honour, of our plans for the month of July.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think I can say
21 the same thing to you, Ms. Pilipovic. We really do feel that progress is
22 being made, and I wish to congratulate you, too. For the moment, you may
23 be seated.
24 I think there are a few points here that we need to come back to
25 perhaps from the standpoint of the organisation of work. I think mid-July
1 or towards the end of July, we really to take stock of the situation
2 following all your meetings and mutual contacts. I think that the
3 Prosecutor could perhaps, if I may be so bold as to say so, make further
4 progress to organise its list of witnesses and list of exhibits which we
5 have called the second and third stages of the pre-trial plan.
6 You will remember that, according to that plan, which has a
7 certain logic, it is sensible to address testimony and exhibits and
8 possibly expert reports after having an idea what one intends to prove,
9 and that is after reaching agreement on disagreements, bearing in mind
10 that the points on which there is disagreement, they will be the object of
11 the trial. So I think from the standpoint of the organisation of work, we
12 should have that idea in mind.
13 Another point is that you could have meetings between the two
14 parties even without Mr. Fourmy being present. Therefore, we wish to
15 encourage all contact between you. And meetings with Mr. Olivier Fourmy
16 could be meetings at which the results are communicated, but the path
17 towards achieving those results can always be covered by you alone. There
18 is no question about that.
19 Mr. Ierace mentioned the possibility of meeting with the Judges of
20 the Chamber in the course of the pre-trial stage. I must say that the
21 idea we have in mind is that the contacts at this stage be made with the
22 Pre-Trial Judge, and if there is a question that needs to be ruled upon,
23 which comes within the exclusive competence of the Chamber, in that case,
24 the Chamber may be seized of the matter.
25 According to the amendments made to Rule 65 of the Rules, the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Pre-Trial Judge has proposed a pre-trial plan. He is assisted by
2 Mr. Olivier Fourmy. Therefore, there is a plan of execution of that plan
3 which, in a sense, is managed by Mr. Fourmy, bearing in mind, of course,
4 that the Pre-Trial Judge is available, and there is always regular
5 communication between the legal officer who is assisting you in your work
6 and who is assisting me as well.
7 So I think that for the moment, with respect to this first group
8 of subjects, that I think we need to wait for the results of your meetings
9 which seem to me to be effective and producing results and which I believe
10 will be even more fruitful in the future.
11 So I don't know whether now Mr. Ierace has anything to say,
12 whether he has any general ideas already even of a provisional nature
13 regarding the second category which has to do with various ways of
14 testimony. There is mention of the witnesses that the Prosecution intends
15 to call, depositions, video-conferencing; in other words, other ways of
16 presenting evidence except by live witnesses. So first we have to decide
17 what we agree upon, and after that, we will know what we need to prove,
18 which needs to be defined.
19 I don't know whether you, Mr. Ierace, have anything to say. And
20 we might possibly also include the third category of subjects such as
21 expert reports. If not, there's no problem, because as I have said from
22 the very beginning, I think that we need to focus our efforts on the first
23 issue, that is, whether there is any agreement or not, to repeat once
24 again, whether there is agreement on disagreements. But let me give you
25 the floor to hear whether there is anything new that may be important at
1 this particular stage.
2 Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. Firstly by way of
4 clarification of two points my friend has said: She referred to a delay
5 in the delivery of the first batch of disclosed material. That is
6 incorrect. There was a deadline of the 6th of April for that first batch
7 to be provided to the Defence. It was met by letter dated the 5th of
8 April, which was e-mailed to my friend. We informed her that the material
9 was on that date, the 5th of April, ready to be collected, and we awaited
10 her instructions on what to do with it. She asked us to courier it to her
11 in Belgrade. We did that. Any further delay was not the responsibility
12 of the Prosecution.
13 In relation to my friend saying that today's the first time that
14 she was made aware of the July deadline, that is incorrect. We have
15 repeatedly said that we anticipated that the disclosure from Project X
16 would be completed by July. So the information I have provided today is
17 in effect by way of confirmation of my earlier advice.
18 Your Honour, in relation to the pre-trial timetable, my concern is
19 that if the suggestions I have made as to what area of the trial material
20 we now examine are rejected by my friend's client, then apart from the
21 remaining stipulation -- stipulated facts and adjudicated facts, we have
22 nowhere to go.
23 Your Honour has made previous or given previous direction as to
24 the order in which we should approach the material, and we have been
25 unable to comply with that because of the difficulties that my friend has
1 presented, and so it is in view of those problems we have proposed this
2 alternative course. If that is rejected, then apart from those two
3 remaining areas, we are unable to continue this process, and that is the
4 reason that I seek that Your Honour or Mr. Fourmy have some input if
5 tomorrow we learn that my latest proposals are unacceptable.
6 Your Honour, I understand and agree with the proposition that it
7 is important to determine what is agreed and what is disagreed before we
8 get into, if we can, the detail of the case, because ultimately that will
9 save a lot of time.
10 I have proposed to my friend some areas of evidence which I
11 anticipate she will be able to obtain instructions prior to receiving all
12 of the disclosed material, and I have made that offer or made that
13 suggestion, I should say, on the understanding that if the disclosed
14 material ultimately provides to her and her client a different avenue,
15 then we would not hold her to the earlier agreement if there is disclosed
16 material which relates to those areas.
17 Your Honour, moving on to video evidence, I think, as I indicated
18 the last time that I appeared before Your Honour, that is a facility which
19 the Prosecution would wish to use, in particular, from Sarajevo. There
20 are a large number of witnesses who reside in Sarajevo and who could more
21 conveniently give evidence by videolink from, perhaps, the United Nations
22 field headquarters in Sarajevo. It makes sense that as many as possible
23 of those witnesses do so from there rather than being transported to The
24 Hague. In some cases, it is the only option to the Prosecution because of
25 illness, age, and fears, whether justified or unjustified, on the part of
1 the witnesses.
2 Your Honour, in relation to expert reports, the Prosecution
3 continues the process of obtaining those reports. We are in a position to
4 confirm our earlier advice as to the areas in which we are looking: a
5 sniping expert, a shelling expert, an expert as to terror, terror when
6 experienced on a large scale by a community over a period of time. We
7 obviously intend to comply with the rules in relation to the release of
8 those reports in relation to terror.
9 Your Honour, from my perspective, the most significant issue in
10 this whole area is that my friend and I continue to work in the process of
11 narrowing the case or, at least, clarifying the issues, and I am anxious
12 that that process continue, and I think it can continue, even prior to the
13 point of full disclosure, in certain areas.
14 Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,
16 Mr. Ierace.
17 Ms. Pilipovic, do you have any observations to make at this
18 point? Please go ahead.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to
20 make a comment and response to what my colleague said with respect to
21 disclosure of material. I was informed that the material was sent on the
22 6th of April, but for technical reasons, I received the material only on
23 the 20th of April, and I don't think that it is my colleagues who are to
24 blame or the Defence, either.
25 As for the proposal made by my colleague that we continue to work,
1 I hope that we will reach agreement to continue our discussions as we have
2 done hitherto. All I can say is that the Defence has engaged experts -
3 one military expert, a ballistic expert, a forensic expert, and a
4 ballistic expert specialising in shelling - and that it also intends to
5 engage another forensic expert and a historian. Although we have a great
6 problem, and that is that the experts have started work, but the registrar
7 has allocated a fund of 100 hours. The Defence intervened three times and
8 informed the registry that for such a complex trial as this one, we should
9 require at least 500 working hours for the work of experts of this kind,
10 including the psychiatric expert, because we have thousands of pages of
11 material. And in keeping with your recommendations from the last Status
12 Conference, we appealed to the president of the Tribunal, and we are
13 awaiting his response and the Tribunal's response with respect to
14 allocating us an additional number of hours needed by the experts.
15 As far as our work with witnesses is concerned, the Defence
16 presented its views at the Status Conference held on the 30th of June --
17 of January. We are going to have witness testimony in keeping with Rule
18 92, that is to say, this will be through deposition and videolink, and
19 we'll also have a number of witnesses who will testify before the Trial
20 Chamber in the courtroom. I hope that at our meeting tomorrow my
21 colleagues and myself will succeed in reaching an agreement and in
22 continuing our cooperation.
23 As for the facts, we have agreed - and my colleagues will, I'm
24 sure, bear me out - that all those facts for which we agree are not
25 challenged, are not contested, that we shall inform the Trial Chamber of
1 those facts, which those facts are, and where we agree upon them. Thank
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you,
4 Ms. Pilipovic.
5 I think that I should like to underline some of the aspects and
6 issues raised, the ones that I'm more preoccupied with, and that is your
7 team and the composition of your team. I should like to draw the
8 attention of the registry to bear in mind that we are really involved in
9 preparing the case before we leave, and we would really like to have the
10 work completed. So I'd like to draw the registry's attention that
11 Ms. Pilipovic should be granted the kind of team she needs to work with
12 and to be able to do her work.
13 I see that Madam Registrar wishes to tell us something, and I
14 therefore give her the floor. Could you bring us up to date, please,
15 Madam Registrar, on that point.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. I've spoken with OLAD,
17 and they've informed me that on the 15th of May they sent a letter to
18 Ms. Pilipovic to tell her that co-counsel is only given two months before
19 trial date, and we have no date set, but that she can have a legal
20 assistant to help her for 175 hours or so a month.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps you could
22 meet with the registrar and deal with that matter. This is not a matter
23 for the Chamber to deal with. The Chamber just drew the attention of the
24 registry to that issue and to help us move forward more quickly. That is
25 why I brought this to the attention of the registry. But Ms. Pilipovic,
1 you will have to contact the registrar yourself to deal with the matter.
2 So far, therefore, I think that we have -- are going to have to
3 wait for you to have your contacts and cooperation, meetings, and with the
4 Chamber through Mr. Olivier Fourmy, and then we will be able to analyse
5 the results achieved.
6 I should now like to give the floor to Mr. Olivier Fourmy to ask
7 him whether he would like to add anything for his part at this point.
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I should
9 like to thank the parties for keeping us regularly abreast of the
10 situation, as has been the case, and I should like to excuse myself
11 tomorrow. I won't be able to be at their meeting, but I will contact them
12 as early as possible on Friday.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Olivier
15 We are now going to go into private session to discuss the second
16 point on our agenda for today. Private session, please.
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3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To wind up our Status
5 Conference, I should now like to turn to General Galic.
6 General Galic, good afternoon. Could you stand, please. Do you
7 have anything at all to tell us concerning your physical or mental health
8 or the conditions of detention in general?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing in particular to
10 say, Your Honour. Everything is the same. Whatever I said before applies
11 today. Thank you for your concern.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
13 So all that remains for me to do is to wish you success in your
14 work, good contacts and communication with Mr. Olivier Fourmy, and you
15 will also have contacts with me. And rest assured that for our part, we
16 will do everything in our power to make sure that the process is
17 successfully brought to an end. And if the preparation is completed
18 successfully, it will be possible to begin the trial as soon as possible.
19 As soon as we complete the pre-trial stage, the trial itself can
20 begin. So I invite you to continue your work and your cooperation which
21 has already produced results, and I wish you every success.
22 The hearing is adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
24 4.04 p.m.