Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 655

1 Tuesday, 4 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Madam Registrar, would you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 As far as I can see, the appearances for both the Prosecution and

11 the Defence are the same as they were yesterday. Thank you. Then I think

12 we will continue now with the examination of the Prosecution witness,

13 Mr. Kupusovic.

14 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Could I just ask both general Galic

17 and Mr. Kupusovic whether they hear me in a language they understand. Can

18 you hear me?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupusovic, you have made a solemn declaration

22 yesterday. You will understand that your testimony today is still in

23 relation to that solemn declaration you made yesterday.

24 Then, Mr. Blaxill, I suppose that you are continuing the

25 interrogation. You may proceed, please.

Page 656

1 MR. BLAXILL: I'm much obliged, Mr. President. Your Honours, good

2 afternoon.

3 WITNESS: TARIK KUPUSOVIC [Resumed]

4 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:

5 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, I apologise for going back to one earlier item

6 where I think I should have elicited a little more detail.

7 MR. BLAXILL: And I beg Your Honours indulgence in that as well.

8 Q. You referred in your testimony yesterday, Mr. Kupusovic, to a

9 referendum that was held, I believe, at the end of February and early

10 March of 1992. And could you just simply tell what the issue was for

11 which they held that referendum.

12 A. The referendum was held on the 29th of February and the 1st of

13 March, 1992. And the question was: Should Bosnia-Herzegovina become an

14 independent state, or should it remain within Yugoslavia?

15 Q. What was the result of that referendum?

16 A. More than 67 percent of the population voted in favour of the

17 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Were there any sections or groups in the community who did not

19 take part in the referendum or who had a particular view about it?

20 A. Yes. The SDS party and its president, Karadzic, called on the

21 Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina not to vote in the referendum.

22 Q. And do you have any knowledge as to whether that request of

23 Dr. Karadzic was followed by people or not?

24 A. It was obvious that a part of the Bosnian Serbs did not vote in

25 the referendum, in smaller towns, but also in Sarajevo.

Page 657

1 Q. Thank you for that. Now, Mr. Kupusovic, if I may go back to the

2 point we had reached yesterday. We heard about how the conflict got

3 started in Sarajevo and about the shelling, the sniping, and the

4 conditions that were developing in the city. Was there a time,

5 Mr. Kupusovic, when the action between the forces of the VRS and persons

6 defending the city resulted in establishing some confrontation lines, some

7 formal lines?

8 A. The formal lines of defence were established by digging trenches,

9 and this occurred sometime in September and October 1992.

10 Q. And can you give the Chamber an idea of some of the areas where

11 those lines were actually established?

12 A. The lines were mostly established just at the end of the urban

13 part of the city, that is, between the last houses of the town and the

14 woods surrounding the town. And on those woods and slopes were those who

15 were attacking the town.

16 Q. Were there any parts of the urban area of Sarajevo that were

17 actually seized and held by the VRS forces?

18 A. Yes. With the evacuation of the Marsal Tito barracks in

19 Sarajevo, the part of the town on the left bank of the Miljacka river

20 called Grbavica was under the control of those forces, that is, the army

21 of Republika Srpska, which accounts for about 10 percent of the urban part

22 of the city which was under their control. And they also had control over

23 all the inhabitants around the town -- all the settlements, I'm sorry,

24 around the town.

25 Q. What happened to the area known as Dobrinja?

Page 658

1 A. Dobrinja was under a two-fold blockade because it was within the

2 encircled around the town, and the link between Dobrinja and the city

3 itself was constantly exposed to sniping because there was only one road

4 linking the two which could not be used for a long time except at night

5 by driving very quickly around it without stopping.

6 Q. Did that situation subsequently change and Dobrinja become, let's

7 say, more integrated into the city?

8 A. First houses were completely destroyed by the fire, so that that

9 communication, that road, became more open to traffic.

10 Q. And about when did that occur?

11 A. That occurred at the end of the winter and the beginning of spring

12 of 1993.

13 Q. And I do now want to move, Mr. Kupusovic, if I may, to the year

14 1993. And what had conditions been over the -- in Sarajevo over the

15 winter, the winter months of 1992 to 1993?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't hear a translation --

18 MR. BLAXILL: I just noticed, Your Honour. I'm not getting a

19 translation either?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just see if this can be --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. It is okay now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please resume at the moment where there was

23 no -- perhaps we should ask the witness -- you should ask

24 the witness to resume his answer to your last question, please.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will

Page 659

1 allow me, in connection with the translation problem, I thought I had

2 understood from what the registrar told us that when a translation problem

3 arises, one should immediately point it out to your Court, your Tribunal.

4 May I ask you, what is the situation now since certain problems have

5 arisen? Should we react each time or not?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think if you have a problem with

7 the translation, and as far as I understand, you perhaps can follow the

8 original language of some of the witnesses as well, please react

9 immediately. But of course if it's just the word "a" or "the," if it's

10 not essential, that's -- that has fallen away, perhaps it's not useful to

11 intervene. But if there is any serious problem in translation, you can

12 interfere immediately. But please keep in mind we are not a linguistic

13 society, but we try to understand the witness as he wants to testifies.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

15 much for your answer. I will try and do my best to remember that this

16 Tribunal is not as -- to protect languages. I would hope it would be

17 something else. But a small word can have a great meaning.

18 As a simple example, for instance, I have noted in page 58, I

19 think, of -- the witness had said for the exodus of the Serbian people

20 from Sarajevo -- just after having declared that it was essential for

21 military families, Serbian military families, he had declared for the

22 report of the population then was a little more Serbians who had left

23 Sarajevo, which I think I heard. And we can check it on the cassettes,

24 like Malo Vise, "a little more than." The translation - and now I am

25 passing through English for the transcript - does not reflect that idea.

Page 660

1 It simply gives the idea in writing that there were more Serbians. And I

2 think this sort of distinction is important when you place it back in its

3 context. Page 58 of the transcript of the hearing of the witness

4 yesterday. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you that small words can have major

6 importance. When it's important, please note immediately. If not, of

7 course we don't have to pay any attention to that.

8 I think about the transcript of yesterday, we can't do anything

9 about that at this moment. But it has been -- it's on the record now that

10 you made -- you clarified an issue that came up yesterday, and we have

11 taken notice of that. Thank you.

12 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. I'll go back to the question that I asked before we had a

14 translation problem, and that was I was asking you what were the

15 conditions in Sarajevo over the winter months, between 1992 and 1993?

16 A. In October 1992, supply of the town with electricity was

17 completely stopped. The citizens of Sarajevo and the Presidency of the

18 city had to face a winter during which for some time there would be no

19 electricity. This also meant that there would be no water, because the

20 pumps were running on electric power, and the telephone lines were already

21 out of use. In order to survive, to some extent, in an organised and to a

22 certain extent in a disorganised manner, all the trees that existed in

23 town, in parks and gardens, were cut down for firewood in order to survive

24 the winter.

25 The water supply was organised from old wells of the city brewery,

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Page 662

1 and they received fuel from the United Nations forces to be able to run

2 the pumps so that people could go to this spot where the brewery was to

3 collect water.

4 The winter, itself, however, was climate-wise a mild one. But for

5 a large city under siege without power, without water, without city

6 transportation, without any normally functioning utilities, for all these

7 things, alternatives had to be found. Some 10 percent of the city was

8 supplied with gas, natural gas, and many families would get together in

9 those apartments which had gas, and gas was available throughout the

10 winter.

11 Q. And what about the situation as regards the shelling and the

12 sniping that you've described prior to the winter? How did that go during

13 the wintertime? Was there any difference?

14 A. During the winter, there were days that were quieter, and there

15 were days with more intensified shelling and sniping. And people were

16 happy when there was a thick fog in town and around it, when there was no

17 sniping.

18 Q. During that winter period, and indeed up to that time, how had the

19 emergency services of the city been coping? By that, I mean the fire

20 brigade and the ambulance service.

21 A. Both services, considering the conditions, functioned extremely

22 well. Of course, their capacities were reduced because of the shortage of

23 fuel, and they were supplied with fuel with the Red Cross, UNPROFOR, and

24 other international organisations that were operating within the city.

25 And it was very difficult to drive around because of the snow which

Page 663

1 couldn't be cleared away, so that people mostly went on foot and in

2 sledges.

3 Q. Were you made aware on the Presidency of any problems directly

4 experienced by the ambulance people and the fire brigade in connection

5 with shelling and sniping?

6 A. Of course. On the one hand, they had to respond to these events,

7 but in order to be able to do so, they needed to have the basic supplies,

8 that is, fuel and heating and medical equipment or fire extinguishing

9 equipment. And the role of the Presidency was to intervene constantly

10 with international organisations asking them to help these services which

11 were vital for the survival of the city. And they did assist, that is,

12 the international organisations assisted as much as they could, because

13 their convoys had to pass through barricades and they had to be given

14 permission and be checked out by the forces of the army of Republika

15 Srpska.

16 Q. Did, to your knowledge, either the ambulance service or the fire

17 service sustain any damage to themselves or their equipment as a result of

18 any shooting?

19 A. Of course, many fire brigade vehicles and ambulances were damaged,

20 and their buildings were frequently shelled and exposed to sniping.

21 Q. When you refer to buildings, are you referring to the fire brigade

22 or the ambulance service or both?

23 A. Both. Anyway, all buildings in Sarajevo were under fire, and the

24 building of the emergency service, as the fire brigade building, were

25 directly hit by several shells and were often the target of sniping.

Page 664

1 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, as we move on to the year 1993, perhaps we can

2 make things a little shorter if I just ask you: Was there any change in

3 the quantity or the frequency of the shelling and the sniping of the city

4 during the course of 1993?

5 A. When the weather was bad, then we one the impression that the

6 situation was quieter. But generally speaking, there was no change. The

7 city was more or less constantly under sniper fire and shelling.

8 Q. Were there any times during that year where any form of cease-fire

9 was actually called between the parties?

10 A. In 1993 you mean?

11 Q. Yes, indeed.

12 A. Negotiations were constantly ongoing under the auspices of the

13 United Nations or the European Union, and occasionally agreements were

14 reached on a cease-fire. But these usually lasted five or ten days, and

15 the situation would again deteriorate or return to the situation of

16 constant sniping and shelling.

17 Q. Now, during this period, what was the situation regarding

18 hospitals in the city? How many hospitals did they have in Sarajevo

19 during the war?

20 A. In Sarajevo, there were two large hospitals. And in Dobrinja,

21 there was a provisional hospital, because of this two-fold blockade that I

22 have described.

23 Q. Could you name the hospitals, please, for the Chamber.

24 A. There was the clinical centre at Kosevo. This is a large complex

25 of clinics and hospitals. And the state hospital, which was for a time

Page 665

1 known as the French hospital at Marijin Dvor, the former military

2 hospital. And at Dobrinja, a local dispensary with several doctors who

3 came from the Kosevo clinical centre formed a provisional hospital. It

4 functioned during the war. After the war, it was dismantled.

5 Q. The state hospital that you have mentioned, what sort of hospital

6 was that prior to the war?

7 A. Before the war, it was the military hospital, and it was used for

8 the needs of the JNA.

9 Q. And you made reference to it also being called possibly the French

10 hospital. Could you just explain that, how it acquired that name.

11 A. Before the war, it was a military hospital, and already at the

12 beginning of 1992, in addition to doctors and other medical staff, there

13 were the soldiers and officers of the JNA there. And similarly, to the

14 Marsal Tito barracks, it was a place from which the town was shot at

15 until mid-May. In mid-May, by agreement, all the non-medical and also the

16 medical staff that wanted to leave the hospital was allowed to leave.

17 And immediately after that, the wife of Prime Minister Mitterrand

18 at the time came to Sarajevo and promised the assistance of the French

19 government and the French people for this hospital. That was when a

20 plaque was attached at the entrance to the hospital calling it the French

21 hospital. But because of continued attacks on the city, this hospital

22 didn't really receive a great deal of aid from France, so that it remained

23 as a state hospital under the management of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina formally.

25 Q. Thank you. What was the situation as regards the ability of the

Page 666

1 Sarajevans during this conflict to bury their dead?

2 A. As far as the burial of the dead, the main city cemetery remained

3 outside the encirclement around Sarajevo, and a large cemetery that had

4 been used until the mid-80s, the cemetery at Bare, was very close to the

5 separation lines once they were established, so that neither of these two

6 cemeteries could be used.

7 And then in the town itself, at several locations, temporary

8 burials were organised. However, as this went on too long -- and these

9 cemeteries remain to this day. The Lav cemetery, the stadium at Kosevo

10 that was transformed into a cemetery, and many old cemeteries from the

11 last century were used to bury several dozen or hundreds of newly deceased

12 people.

13 Q. And were people able to hold normal funeral ceremonies and pay

14 their respects in a way that was like they were able to do before the

15 conflict?

16 A. No. Unfortunately, those sorts of ceremonies and gatherings of

17 people were also a target of attack, shelling and sniping, so that many

18 of these ceremonies had to be stopped and people were very often wounded

19 at the ceremonies themselves. And so they were held late, in the late

20 evening hours or late into the night, when it was possible to bury their

21 dead in greater safety.

22 Q. Can you indicate to the Chamber, if you have any idea, as to how

23 many casualities might have resulted in those circumstances?

24 A. In the course of the whole war in Sarajevo, 12.000 people were

25 killed from the shelling and sniping, and four and a half more -- thousand

Page 667

1 more people who died of natural causes under the prevailing conditions.

2 So of the 12.000 killed, 1,600 were children.

3 Q. I see. And those figures you have quoted, do they, in fact, apply

4 to the entirety of the conflict, start to finish?

5 A. Yes, the entirety of the conflict; from May 1992 up until October

6 1995.

7 Q. As a matter of interest, where did you source that information?

8 Who gave you those figures?

9 A. In the city of Sarajevo throughout, there was the functioning of

10 an institute for public health. And its job, among other things, was to

11 work with statistical data with respect to health, and of course the

12 citizens of Sarajevo who had died or were killed. The Presidency of the

13 town and also in the newspapers as well, reports would come in daily as to

14 the casualities, the killed, the wounded, and people who had died of some

15 other cause, not from the shelling or sniping.

16 Similarly, the public funeral society, also coming under the

17 authority of the town, and the companies or associations of religious

18 communities for burial also sent out regular reports to the municipal

19 authorities and to the media, newspapers, which were printed during the

20 war in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Of that total figure that you have given us, can you indicate

22 whether those casualities include both military and civilian people?

23 A. These were the civilian casualities alone. As to the military

24 personnel, we didn't have data on them. But in the town itself, the

25 people who were killed were civilians. Whereas on the front lines, the

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Page 669

1 defence lines, where in the course of fighting those casualities

2 were something that the military authorities dealt with because they died

3 as soldiers.

4 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, over the period of the conflict, what was the rate

5 of the civilian casualities? Did it in fact -- was it a steady kind of

6 rate of casualities, or were there periods where there were very

7 disparate figures?

8 A. Of course there were periods when there were greater casualities.

9 There were several massacres, in fact; that is to say, situations in which

10 at one and the same time tens of civilians were killed. And there were

11 quieter days, more peaceful days, when in the course of one or two days

12 just one or two people were killed and several wounded and injured. But

13 on an average, that would be 10 or 12 victims, casualities every day over

14 a long period of time, on an average.

15 Q. So if I say to you in the latter part of 1992, was the casualty

16 rate similar or dissimilar, say, to the first half of 1993?

17 A. The numbers were similar, yes.

18 Q. And what about the second half of 1993 as against the first half

19 of 1993? Again, was this very different or was the rate similar?

20 A. Well, I think there was a slightly higher number of casualities,

21 but I can't really say. It was more or less the same.

22 Q. Would that have applied over the winter of 1993 to 1994?

23 A. No. In the winter of 1993 and the beginning of 1994, I don't

24 know why, but the shooting was intensified, and there were smaller

25 massacres, four or five people at one spot, they would be killed. So

Page 670

1 there were usually localities where people would go to fetch water or

2 where they would gather to buy bread or things of that kind. And it was

3 most intense prior to the resolution of the United Nations Security

4 Council number 900 in February 1994 when an ultimatum was reached and

5 announced to the forces that had held the town under siege that all their

6 weapons and all snipers and all sniper nests be withdrawn to further away

7 from town, which at the end of February and beginning of March 1994 is

8 what happened. And that is when a peaceful time came to the city of

9 Sarajevo as far as shelling and sniping was concerned. It was a calm

10 period.

11 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, thank you for that. During -- we had been talking

12 about also the conditions in the hospitals. What were the conditions

13 under which the hospitals were working to treat the citizens of Sarajevo,

14 including the casualities of shelling and sniping?

15 A. The conditions were unbelievably hard. When there was water, then

16 it was the hospitals that had the priority there. But very often they had

17 to do without water. When there was electricity, once again the hospitals

18 would receive the electricity. But very often they had to work by

19 candlelight or generators that they had for emergency surgery. Food, too,

20 was a problem as was heating, and all the other services in the hospital

21 and for the patients, for the injured and wounded, and for the staff as

22 well. It was very difficult to ensure these supplies in a continuous

23 manner. But despite all this, both the hospitals and all the other health

24 centres and clinics were subject to shelling and sniping from time to

25 time, so that the hospitals had to withdraw to the basement areas and to

Page 671

1 the first and second floors, if we're talking about the former military

2 hospital. From that point of view, Sarajevo was lucky because the hospital

3 capacities and facilities which were built before the war were working for

4 the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but because of the -- the city was under

5 siege, they actually served the city of Sarajevo itself, so they were

6 large. And many parts of the hospital -- the hospitals and the state

7 hospitals were not used, but the capacities were large so that in view of

8 the number of rooms and the staff and personnel, they were fairly

9 successful in contending with the prevailing conditions during the war.

10 Q. And are you aware - very briefly, if you would - as to whether

11 they encountered any problems over the obtaining of necessary drugs and

12 medicine and medical equipment?

13 A. Humanitarian aid, in the form of medicines, were brought in by

14 many humanitarian organisations and the convoys and so on.

15 Q. If I could --

16 A. Planes and convoys.

17 Q. Thank you. If I could move on, Mr. Kupusovic, to the question of

18 the education of the children. How did -- or did anything happen as

19 regards maintaining educational facilities for the children of the city?

20 A. The school buildings were full of glass and the glass was

21 shattered, and therefore, the buildings were incapacitated, they couldn't

22 be used, already in May 1992. And so the previous school year was

23 interrupted. And it was only in the autumn of the following year, 1992,

24 in late autumn, in fact, that we were able to organise teaching in

25 basements and secure apartments. We collected the children, gathered the

Page 672

1 children there with their teachers and started a fresh school year,

2 academic year, under conditions of that kind. The teaching took place once

3 a week or twice a week, so the periods were short. And for the rest of

4 the time, the children had to study with their parents, if they were able

5 to instruct them and give them the education they needed. Many children

6 in that period were evacuated from the city because many humanitarian

7 organisations made offers to have the children evacuated. But of course a

8 lot of children remained in town. And the following year, we were able to

9 print textbooks and notebooks, provisional ones, of course, for the

10 children. We were better able to organise education and teaching.

11 Unfortunately, for all the children, in the first two years of the

12 war, the type of education they received was very poor. And this can be

13 felt in the -- could be felt in the ensuing years. They have great gaps

14 in their education because the education was not continuous. It had, as I

15 said, to take place in the basements and under special conditions, wartime

16 conditions. And the children were taught how to survive and live in the

17 course of the war, whereas the basics that they are usually taught in

18 peace-time, they didn't have time to learn.

19 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, if we move -- you've mentioned the NATO ultimatum

20 that was in February 1994. What effect, if any, did that have on shelling

21 and sniping?

22 A. The ultimatum, in fact, was to have been implemented by the

23 UNPROFOR command and to control and supervise it, and it did actually take

24 place. It came into being. So at the end of February, or rather, the

25 beginning of March, all the heavy weaponry and the sniper nests and

Page 673

1 positions were withdrawn. I think they were -- the condition was that

2 they withdraw to within 30 kilometres of the town. And in the city of

3 Sarajevo itself, we saw a period without shelling and without sniping, and

4 this went on until mid-August of that year, 1994.

5 Q. So what, then, happened in mid-August of 1994? And we won't go

6 beyond that date, Mr. Kupusovic. But what then happened in mid-August?

7 A. The city was still under siege, but there were no -- there was no

8 sniping or shelling from March to mid-August. We tried to have the city

9 services function slowly, and the United Nations appointed a special

10 representative for the reconstruction of the town's infrastructure. And

11 what we call the Blue Road was opened up via the Mount Igman and the

12 airport, and we were able to communicate with the rest of the country and

13 the world at large.

14 However, on the 17th of August, for reasons that I do not know,

15 there was an attack from the Republika Srpska, a column of vehicles, UN

16 vehicles which were carrying fuel for the town. And they set fire to

17 several tens of vehicles, and that was when the peaceful period and the

18 hope that the people of Sarajevo had that the war had come to an end, at

19 least for them, was buried. That is to say, there was a burgeoning of

20 sniping and shelling once again after August 1994.

21 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, we have heard about the -- we have heard about the

22 problems of water, that valuable resource for the city. When you were on

23 the Presidency, did any particular individual have responsibility for the

24 water supply?

25 A. It was the utilities, water works company that was in charge of

Page 674

1 the water supply as the main source was behind the line of siege of the

2 city. A commission was set up which incorporated representatives for the

3 other utilities as well, and this commission held negotiations at the

4 airport under the auspices of the UN forces on the establishment of a

5 water supply and electricity supply for the town and with respect to waste

6 waters, and there was a separate commission for military matters and

7 aspects which looked into the security aspects for repairing the main

8 facilities for these systems. I, myself, at that time was a member of the

9 commission for the water supply.

10 Q. So did you have direct dealings with your Bosnian Serb

11 counterparts in this respect?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were there occasions you were able to negotiate a supply of water

14 from that original source to the city?

15 A. Yes. The negotiations took place at the airport under UN auspices

16 whenever it was possible. And on an average, it was possible twice a

17 month, sometimes twice a week.

18 Q. And how generally did the negotiations go? Did you have any

19 particular difficulties or problems or...

20 A. Well, in principle, there weren't any difficulties because at the

21 negotiations were attended by people whose job that was. So from the very

22 beginning, they said that water, electricity, and the other utilities will

23 no longer -- would no longer be used to terrorise the citizens of

24 Sarajevo. And then we looked into the technical feasibilities of having

25 10 to 20 percent of capacities put into operations straight away.

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Page 676

1 And that's what usually happened. But after a few days or weeks, there

2 was an interruption again, a breakdown. And after a few weeks of

3 negotiation, we were able to establish the supply source again. And

4 that's how it went throughout the winter of 1993 up until the -- the war

5 effects on Sarajevo were discontinued at the beginning of 1994

6 Q. You've used an expression there of using the water or electricity

7 to terrorise the citizens. Can you tell us a little bit more about that,

8 I mean as to what you mean by using the -- those utilities in that

9 fashion.

10 A. In Sarajevo, the citizens themselves were exposed to

11 terrorisation, that is to say, a constant pressure that they could not --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Blaxill, Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to

13 interfere.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry to have to

15 intervene. If I have to hear what the witness is saying. I think that

16 the microphone doesn't work well at all. I can't hear properly a

17 translation and listen to another and hear what the witness is saying. It

18 should be possible to raise the volume of the microphone so that I could

19 have my ear free to listen. I cannot follow what the witness is saying.

20 It's purely a technical matter.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll discuss this with my colleagues and see what

22 technically can be done about it. On the other hand, of course, a human

23 being has some limitations in hearing. You haven't even got three ears to

24 follow three languages.

25 Do I understand well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you would like to

Page 677

1 have the level of the volume of the sound in the courtroom a bit higher so

2 that with one ear you can listen to the translation and with the other to

3 the original language spoken?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not exactly, Mr. President.

5 I'm trying to get a translation in one ear, to follow another one, and to

6 listen to what the witness is saying. And in order to be able to listen

7 to what he is saying, one should raise the volume in the room. Yes, in

8 the room. I have understood. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask the technicians whether it's

10 possible to have the higher level of sound in the courtroom but of course

11 not so loud that we'll be disturbed by the sound in the courtroom.

12 I do understand that this is not possible. So I'll just ask you

13 at least to have your best ear in the courtroom and the other ear on the

14 earphones. We tried, but we can't effect it. Thank you.

15 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.

16 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, I had asked you if you could expand a little on

18 what you mean by the use of the water system and the electricity as ways

19 of terrorising the population of Sarajevo. And if you could clarify what

20 you mean by that.

21 A. We -- all of us in Sarajevo knew that the siege of Leningrad in

22 the Second World War lasted for 1.000 days, or rather, 900 days, but that

23 the water supply was not used as a purpose to attain one's wartime goals.

24 For Sarajevo, water was used as a means to render citizens' lives

25 impossible. And at the negotiations that I mentioned that were held at

Page 678

1 the airport, when we -- the two sides had tete-a-tete meetings, that is,

2 the representatives of the city on the one side and those who were around

3 the town on the other. They said that the water would no longer be used

4 as a means to attain war goals.

5 But then, for example, when it came to repairing a pump, they put

6 it off for a week or two, so it took a week or two to have the water

7 flowing. And then a valve was closed off, and there wasn't any more

8 water.

9 The representatives of the United Nations who were acting as

10 mediators, only towards the end of the war were they allowed by the army

11 of Republika Srpska to be on the spot, to be where the pumps were, and the

12 electricity stations so as to be able to ensure that they were not used as

13 a means of war. So throughout that time, later on, they were -- they

14 served

15 citizens. They would give out small quantities, then break them off. And

16 this was cyclic. But it had a very hard effect on the population because

17 they lost the meaning of life, if I can put it that way.

18 Q. Thank you. Just, perhaps, to state the obvious in a way, where

19 was the ultimate control of the water supply situated? In whose

20 territory?

21 A. On the territory controlled by the forces of the army of Republika

22 Srpska.

23 Q. Where was the ultimate control of the electricity supply situated?

24 On whose territory?

25 A. The electricity supply -- there were 11 transformer stations

Page 679

1 around the city, and they were all under the control of the forces of the

2 army of Republika Srpska.

3 Q. Are you aware as to whether water lines to the city or the piping

4 ever received damage from shelling or sniping-type damage?

5 A. The main pipeline was never damaged, but the local distribution

6 network was damaged here and there, but not by shells directly but,

7 rather, due to the rapid changes in the amount of air and water in those

8 pipes.

9 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, I just wish to move now, if I may, sir, to my last

10 topic for discussion with you, and that is this: Throughout all the

11 events that you have been describing yesterday and today, what was the

12 effect psychologically on yourself and on your fellow citizens, your

13 fellow Sarajevans who were in that city?

14 A. As Sarajevans, we experienced our first shock on the 2nd of May

15 when the war actually began in Sarajevo, that is, the siege and the

16 shelling. Throughout those first few months, we thought that the war must

17 come to an end by the following week, that what was happening was quite

18 impossible. However, that didn't happen.

19 And in October 1992, when the town was left without any

20 electricity at all, this was another psychological shock, and we wondered

21 whether it was possible to survive at all under those circumstances.

22 Because the bakery had the flour, but if there's no electricity, it

23 couldn't make bread. And if there's no water, that is, pumped by

24 electricity, again, it cannot produce bread.

25 The cease-fires or the interruptions in the attacks on the town

Page 680

1 gave hope that the situation would gradually improve, but after each of

2 those cease-fires, shelling would resume with even greater intensity, as

3 well as sniping, and then people psychologically started to lose faith and

4 hope that they would be able to survive at all.

5 Q. Can I interrupt you there for a moment, sir. Can you say what -

6 very specifically you've made reference now to shelling and sniping - what

7 specific emotions that you observed in yourself and others were created by

8 the fact of the shelling and of the sniping that was done on the civilians

9 of Sarajevo?

10 A. Of course, I am not an expert. But I know, judging by my children

11 and my friends, the psychological reaction was that we had to somehow get

12 away from that town. And the people who had firmly decided to leave were

13 taken by convoys and even by UN planes and transported to countries that

14 were willing to receive refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina, so that

15 100.000 pre-war citizens of Sarajevo left the town during the first and

16 second year of the war.

17 I have already mentioned that quite a number of children were

18 evacuated. But also, various other groups of people had left the city.

19 And for those who remained, they did so because that was their town. They

20 stayed behind either because they had obligations towards their family,

21 but the psychological effect was most depressing.

22 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, can you perhaps describe to me the feelings you

23 might have when you had to step out of your house in Sarajevo to go and

24 fetch something? What sort of emotions did you recall in yourself, and

25 you maybe noticed amongst friends, when you were faced with having to go

Page 681

1 out on the streets?

2 A. One had to go out either to fetch bread or water, or simply

3 because you couldn't spend all your time in the basement or the safer part

4 of your apartment. And for the people who stayed behind, there was fear

5 whether the person who went out would come back alive or wounded, and also

6 the person going out wondered, as soon as he hears a shell, whether his

7 apartment had been hit. And this was terrible fear because you couldn't

8 communicate with anyone by telephone. And if you hear that there had been

9 sniping or shelling somewhere, then immediately you think of your children

10 or your wife or family. Until you get together again, you are under

11 terrible stress. And this was something that happened regularly.

12 Q. May I interrupt you there. I'm sorry to do so, Mr. Kupusovic.

13 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I believe there is an error in

14 transcript my learned friend has pointed out to me. There is a reference

15 at line 19, page 22 that refers to hundreds of civilians left the town

16 during the second year of the war. Our recollection is that the

17 expression was hundreds of thousands. I see His Honour Judge Nieto Navia

18 is nodding agreement.

19 We believe, also - I'm sorry, I wasn't paying adequate attention

20 to the script myself at that point - it was, "Between the first and second

21 year, hundreds of thousands of people ..." I believe the reference in the

22 transcript is simply "the second year".

23 Perhaps I could re-ask those questions for absolute clarity. Would

24 it assist Your Honours?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would please do so, so that it will not

Page 682

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Page 683

1 be necessary later on to change the transcript. Thank you.

2 MR. BLAXILL:

3 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, because of the situation with the transcript, you

4 mentioned the numbers of people who had left the city. And the record

5 showed it was in the second year and hundreds of civilians.

6 Now, could you just recall what you actually said or meant in that

7 regard as to the numbers of people who left the city and when they did?

8 A. I meant to say that in the first two years of the war, 100.000

9 citizens left the town.

10 MR. BLAXILL: I think that is now eminently clear, Your Honour.

11 I'll proceed.

12 Q. Yes, Mr. Kupusovic, could we go back. You said that you referred

13 to the stress and the thoughts of your family and so forth when you went

14 out and around in the city. Is there anything further you can say about

15 the mental effects of the sniping and the shelling upon you or other

16 Sarajevans such as perhaps have you any lasting effects from that

17 experience? Have you noticed any behavioural things in others or yourself

18 that reflect that psychological experience?

19 A. I think that everyone who experienced the war in Sarajevo has

20 lasting effects. But for me personally and my immediate family, we have

21 endeavoured to put it behind us. This happened. Thank God, we have

22 physically survived, and focussing on today and tomorrow, we manage to

23 live with these mental scars from that period.

24 There were very many cases of children coming back after the war

25 where they had been refugees. And when they met with the children who had

Page 684

1 stayed in Sarajevo, these encounters between the two groups showed a lack

2 of understanding between them. The same applies to adults, but somehow

3 they seek to deal with that better. But anyway, there are very few people

4 outside Sarajevo who can understand those who lived through it in

5 Sarajevo. But, of course, the Sarajevans who were refugees did not have

6 an easy time either, but at least they were not exposed to shelling

7 and sniping and shortage of basic food stuffs as well as electricity and

8 water.

9 Personally, and my colleagues at work also, looking to the future,

10 we are living with this past of ours, which should remain in the past.

11 And those who are to blame for that should be held accountable by this

12 Tribunal and punished.

13 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, I thank you for that.

14 MR. BLAXILL: And Mr. President, Your Honours, that does conclude

15 my examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. It's now the Defence has

17 the opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Kupusovic. But perhaps I would first

18 like to know how much time do you think you'll need for cross-examination,

19 if you want to cross-examine the witness?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. It is our

21 estimate that we will need about two hours for the cross-examination.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You understand I am looking at the clock. Perhaps it

23 would be -- so we have approximately a bit over -- two hours left.

24 Perhaps it would be better to make a break now, if this is possible, for

25 the technical support and the interpretation, and then start

Page 685

1 cross-examination. So I would say -- I have some difficulties in looking

2 at the clock because there's a lot of reflection. But if we would start

3 at 4.00, is that all right with you, Ms. Pilipovic?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. But I

5 would like, before I start my cross-examination, to address the question

6 of tendering of evidence which you raised yesterday, but we didn't

7 discuss it. Since my learned friends from the Prosecution had not

8 intended to tender this document, the Defence in the cross-examination

9 would like to tender to the Court certain documents into evidence.

10 For technical reasons, I would like to know how we will be dealing

11 with this tendering of documents. And with your leave, I can tell you

12 that we have prepared five copies of text from two books in the B/C/S and

13 English language. Is that sufficient, I wonder? So could we deal with

14 that now, and then have our break. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I understand that during a pre-trial

18 meeting with the management, an arrangement has been made that seven

19 copies of each document should be provided by the parties when they tender

20 exhibits in evidence. And the second thing is they should be

21 pre-numbered. Are they pre-numbered according to what has been arranged

22 for, these exhibits? Otherwise, if everybody is all right and there's no

23 problem, we proceed just as we arranged. If there is still some problem,

24 perhaps you could use the half-hour break to have the number of copies we

25 would like to have and the numbering being completed.

Page 686

1 Could you please tell us whether the preparation in this respect

2 is done?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very

4 much. It just means that I need another two copies, and that's why I just

5 asked so that there would be no problems later on when tendering the

6 documents. Thank you very much. So this break will come in very handy

7 for me to make another two copies, so I will have seven. And also, I will

8 pre-number them 1, 2, and 3, and so on.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And as far as I understand, it's the practice

10 in this Court that you can use these exhibits without -- we expect once

11 you show an exhibit to a witness, that you'll tender them in evidence. If

12 there's any objection against a document from the other party, please

13 raise this objection immediately. But if there's no objection, then we

14 can have these exhibits tendered and admitted in evidence at the end of

15 the testimony of the witness.

16 MR. BLAXILL: Understood, Your Honour. The only thing is at this

17 point in time, we are unaware of these documents and their contents. I

18 think we could profitably use the break period to look into the matter,

19 and perhaps if there is any further comment from the

20 Prosecution, perhaps we could make that comment on conclusion of the

21 break.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. We will have a break until 4.00. Thank

23 you.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

Page 687

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you have been able to make a couple of

2 copies extra.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

4 Everything is in order now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution now aware of the exhibits that

6 will be used during the cross-examination, and is there any comment on the

7 material that will be used?

8 MR. BLAXILL: The answer to both your questions, Mr. President, is

9 yes. We have the documents. We are aware of their contents.

10 The Prosecution has no objection to the practice of a

11 cross-examining party putting a document to a witness, with a view to it

12 then being entered into evidence subsequent to that cross-examination.

13 But, however, our observation is that we feel there has to be a need for a

14 proper evidential foundation for a given document to be put to a witness.

15 In other words, the document must have some kind of relevance to that

16 witness's testimony or experience so that they could properly use the

17 witness as a vehicle for the given document. So it is subject to that

18 qualification that there be a proper evidential foundation why it should

19 go through that witness. Other than that, we have no objection to the

20 practice, quite clearly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So let's just start the procedure. And if it comes

22 to -- ever to any document that might not be linked to the witness, then

23 we'll see what happens, and perhaps you could then respond.

24 MR. BLAXILL: Well, we would propose perhaps offering any comment

25 from the Prosecution side -- at the point where my learned friend wanted

Page 688

1 to tender the document, then we would make any challenge that was

2 appropriate.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, unless there are other reasons to

4 challenge the evidence to be admitted.

5 MR. BLAXILL: The unforeseen or whatever, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then Ms. Pilipovic, we will ask the witness to come

7 in, and you then may cross-examine the witness. Or is it Mr.

8 Piletta-Zanin who is going to cross-examine the witness?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will

10 allow me, I think that it is essential that the Defence may just before

11 the cross-examination may call the attention of your Tribunal, if possible

12 with the documents, on certain facts which give back to the Defence the

13 rights -- makes the exercise of its rights very difficult, if not

14 impossible. But I only need one minute to explain what the Defence has to

15 do tomorrow before the cross-examination of the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest -- you say "what has to do tomorrow before

17 the cross-examination of the witness." That's what I read on my

18 transcript. One minute to explain. Tomorrow, before the cross-examination

19 of the witness --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. But we thought at the

21 time that the cross-examination would be tomorrow, you see. Now it's

22 going to be today. And it's just before this hearing on the

23 cross-examination that we would like to submit these matters to the

24 Tribunal for a few seconds, a few short seconds.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, first of all, I expect every party to be

Page 689

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Page 690

1 prepared at least a couple of hours in advance if things go a bit

2 quicker. We have to be prepared for that. That's my first observation.

3 If there's one thing at this moment you would like to bring under

4 the attention of the Chamber, you could do it, but don't use all the time

5 you would have otherwise have used for cross-examination. Thank you.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you so much, Mr.

7 President. We will use this time which could be taken on our time for

8 cross-examination, but I really think it's necessary to be able to express

9 ourselves now.

10 What I wanted to say, Mr. President, Your Honours, is simply that

11 we received a few hours only ago -- only a few hours ago, and only one of

12 the two counsel for the Defence, about 97 folders which are not in this

13 room, this courtroom - I can't see them here. I suppose nobody dared

14 bring them in - 87 folders where you have all the exhibits, and in

15 particular some of the exhibits which would particularly be interesting

16 for the cross-examination.

17 In order to help us in this demarche, it was furnished to the

18 Defence, a search engine which could also help the Tribunal to retrieve

19 necessary data in this -- data, which a few hours ago, about 41.757

20 pages -- 41.757 pages by the search engine, we can only find 37 documents

21 which contain or incorporate the name of General Galic. In these 37

22 documents, more than half are newspaper clips, articles, press

23 commentaries, stories which have absolutely no direct connection or

24 immediate connection with the facts.

25 And another 30 seconds if I may, Mr. President --

Page 691

1 JUDGE ORIE: No. I would like to interrupt you at this moment,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I feel that you are pointing at certain shortcomings

3 in the documents you have been provided by the Prosecution. And I know

4 that this has been an issue before, and I suggest that we discuss this

5 matter at a Status Conference which will be held immediately after the

6 examination of the witness, and I also suggest to you that if new

7 documents have come up, and overnight you might have new thoughts on them,

8 and if you can show the relevance of your remarks for the examination of

9 Mr. Kupusovic, then you come up with this specific point even before the

10 Status Conference. But the other issues, numbers of documents, relevance

11 of documents, we will discuss that I think better during the Status

12 Conference. If you would agree with that.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

14 much. I have no other choice than to accept. But it would be necessary

15 to say very clearly - and we can talk about it tomorrow - one should say

16 very clearly that we are not in a position to cross-examine in an

17 efficient way this witness for reasons I wanted to explain, which I think

18 you were not able to hear.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I just read the transcript on the last line. These

20 new documents -- it would be unfair to finish cross-examination of the

21 witness without these documents. We will come back to that later. And

22 you have an opportunity to use these documents when relevant in any

23 further state of the proceedings.

24 So I would now like to ask the usher to bring in the witness,

25 Mr. Kupusovic, and I'll give you the opportunity to cross-examine

Page 692

1 Mr. Kupusovic.

2 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupusovic, good afternoon.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Before I start with my questions, I should like you to confirm for

8 us that for the past couple of years, you have been cooperating with the

9 Tribunal investigators, that on the 22nd and 23rd of May, 1996 you made a

10 statement as a witness. Can you confirm that, please? Is that true?

11 A. I don't remember the exact dates, but I did give statements in

12 1996 and appeared in this Tribunal as a witness that same year.

13 Q. You were a witness in case IT-95-18, on the 1st of July, 1996?

14 A. I'm afraid I am not familiar with the numbers you're referring to,

15 but I was a witness concerning the same matter, that is, the situation in

16 Sarajevo in the proceedings against Karadzic and Mladic in their absence.

17 Q. On the 2nd of February and the 26th of October, 2000, you had an

18 interview with the investigators of the Tribunal?

19 A. Yes, on two occasions. I don't remember the exact dates, but

20 probably you are right.

21 Q. As Defence counsel, I have those documents in my possession, and I

22 just wanted you to confirm that you had those conversations with our

23 learned friends from the Prosecution. On 13th of November and the 1st of

24 December, you also had an interview with the Prosecution investigators.

25 A. Yes.

Page 693

1 Q. Thank you. In the course of the examination-in-chief by my

2 learned friends, you said that you were a professor at the university and

3 director of an institute. Will you tell us when you became a university

4 professor and when director of the institute. What year?

5 A. I worked at the university every since my graduation in 1977; and

6 as senior assistant, I became in 1988; and in 1990, I became director of

7 the institute for hydro engineering attached to the civil engineering

8 department of the university.

9 Q. You told us that you lived at Dobrinja?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Will you please tell us what part of Dobrinja was your apartment.

12 In what part of Dobrinja?

13 A. It is called Dobrinja I, next to the road. And across the road is

14 the runway of Sarajevo airport.

15 Q. As you have told us that it was Dobrinja I, does that mean that in

16 that part of the settlement, there are several Dobrinja settlements with

17 different numbers?

18 A. This is the first part of Dobrinja that was built in 1983, and

19 that is why it was called Dobrinja I. And there are also Dobrinja II, III

20 IV, and also I think V. In fact it is all one settlement, but the numbers

21 were given consecutively as they were built.

22 Q. What municipality did the Dobrinja residential area belong to?

23 A. It belonged to the municipality called Novi Grad, or "new city."

24 Q. You told us that the airport was close to where you lived. Could

25 you tell us, in view of the fact that you were born in Sarajevo and you

Page 694

1 were living in Sarajevo, what is in the immediate vicinity and in the

2 surroundings of Dobrinja? Are there other settlements or certain hills or

3 other features?

4 A. On the one side is the main road going from Stup to Kula.

5 And on the right-hand side of the road is the airport, and on the

6 left-hand side the settlement of Dobrinja.

7 In the direction of Lukavica, there is the barracks, the JNA

8 barracks. And on the opposite from the airport is Brdo, and the hill is

9 called Mojmilo, and that is where the water reservoir is. As you're

10 heading towards the centre of the city is the Nedzarici district and Ali

11 Pasino Polje district.

12 Q. And Igman mountain?

13 A. Mount Igman is on the other side of the airport. There's

14 Dobrinja, then the airport, then railway tracks, then some other

15 settlements, and then Mount Igman. So from my window, I could see both

16 the airport and Mount Igman looking in the same direction.

17 Q. To avoid repetition, you told us what the municipalities of

18 Sarajevo were. Could you tell us what the composition of the population

19 was in the various municipalities?

20 A. I can't tell you offhand, by it was roughly the same as for the

21 whole of the city, which I've already said: 40 percent Muslim, 30 percent

22 Serbs, 8, 9 percent Croats, and the rest were those who were mixed.

23 In Dobrinja, there was a particularly high percentage of mixed

24 marriages because it was a new settlement, so that in every building,

25 there were families of different ethnicities.

Page 695

1 Q. Do you know which of the municipalities in which the Serb

2 population had a majority?

3 A. They were not predominant in any single municipality, but in the

4 old district of Nedzarici, as far as I know, there were more Serbs than

5 others. But this is because this used to be a village, and then when it

6 became a part of the city, it was an area where there were more Serbs.

7 And then the same applies to Stup, which was a suburb, or rather,

8 village where Croats were more numerous, and later it was integrated into

9 the city. And the people living there remained majority Croats.

10 There were other Muslim villages also that became part of the city

11 where the Muslims were more numerous than others.

12 Q. In relation to all those municipalities, the ten municipalities

13 that constituted the city of Sarajevo, where were the economic resources,

14 the large companies in Sarajevo? Could you tell us in which part of the

15 city they were situated?

16 A. They were all over town. Sarajevo, with its ten municipalities,

17 was administratively organised in such a way that the larger factories

18 should be in the suburbs, such as, Hranici, Pale, Korin [phoen], Hadzici,

19 Vogosca, and other settlements. And in the town itself, the urban part of

20 the city, we had mostly the premises of consulting and designing

21 companies. There were very few factories in the town itself but -- left

22 over from the last century, but mostly commercial firms, and of course the

23 city's infrastructure.

24 Q. You told us that you were a member of the SDA party. When did you

25 become a member?

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Page 697

1 A. Just before the elections in 1990. I joined at the end of August.

2 And the elections took place in November.

3 Q. When was the SDA party formed?

4 A. I think it was in March 1990.

5 Q. Before that, were you a member of any other party?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. You told us that you headed the SDA list at the elections. Could

8 you tell us whether you were an official in the SDA party and what was

9 your function?

10 A. Before the elections nor after the election was I an SDA official,

11 but I was the head of the list. I was proposed to head the list by the

12 party officials as a respected citizen born in Stari Grad for which I

13 headed the list.

14 After several assembly meetings in 1990, I was elected

15 president of the SDA club of deputies in the city assembly, and as such, I

16 did participate in certain party meetings. But I was no party official.

17 I was not a party official.

18 Q. You told us that three national parties were formed, that is, the

19 parties in Sarajevo, the SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS. Could you tell us the

20 order in which they were formed?

21 A. As far as I can remember, the SDA was the first to be formed, then

22 the HDZ, and after that, the SDS.

23 Q. Did interethnic relations deteriorate in Sarajevo after the

24 formation of those parties?

25 A. Before the war?

Page 698

1 Q. No. When did the relations deteriorate?

2 A. In the whole of Sarajevo, they did not at all until the war. But

3 in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, later those relations

4 deteriorated.

5 Q. Which party won at the elections in Sarajevo? Which was the

6 leading party?

7 A. Not a single party in Sarajevo got an absolute majority, but in

8 the city assembly in which I participated, the SDA had a relative

9 majority, 42 deputies out of a total of 120, which means 31 or 32

10 per cent; whereas the SDS had 28 percent, and the HDZ, 4. And the

11 other four parties elected to the assembly had between 1 and 2

12 deputies to 22 deputies in the city assembly.

13 Q. How did that assembly function and until when did it function?

14 A. The assembly functioned very well in my opinion until March of

15 1992, and then it didn't function for two years, and then it resumed in

16 March 1994 until after the Dayton Peace Agreements, and after that as

17 well.

18 Q. After the conflict broke out in Sarajevo, a Presidency was formed,

19 you told us. Could you explain in somewhat greater detail the role of

20 that Presidency.

21 A. You're probably referring to the city Presidency of which I was a

22 member. It was formed on the basis of the constitution and the law

23 because the assembly was unable to meet, that is, all 120 deputies, or

24 rather, a two-thirds majority of that number, that is, 81 deputies. In

25 April, it was unable to meet, and then at the beginning of June the

Page 699

1 Presidency was formed, which took over all the competences of the

2 assembly, that is, the highest civilian authority in Sarajevo for the city

3 of Sarajevo.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that on the 4th of April, 1992, an

5 immediate threat of war or state of war was proclaimed in Sarajevo?

6 A. Was it officially proclaimed then, I don't remember. But that is

7 what it was, in fact.

8 Q. And when was a general mobilisation called?

9 A. Later, in mid-May.

10 Q. But you will agree with me that the functions of the Presidency

11 were a wartime Presidency of the assembly of Sarajevo; however,

12 mobilisation was called by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Did that War Presidency function on the basis of the principle of

14 crisis staffs?

15 A. No. According to the laws taken over from the [Realtime

16 transcript read in error "SFOR"] SFRY, it consisted

17 the town mayor, the deputy town mayor, a lady, the head of civil defence,

18 the head of the local police, and representatives of political parties who

19 were elected to the city assembly. So that the Presidency was composed of

20 members of different parties and different people of different ethnicity

21 and different political views, but people who sought to make life in town

22 possible, in the civilian sense.

23 Q. So that War Presidency was formed in June 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry, I've noticed that at line 25, page 37, it

Page 700

1 said "according to the laws taken over from the SFOR." That is, in fact,

2 SFRY. I do recall hearing that. And it's a significant difference

3 because SFOR was an acronym for one of the UN presidencies in Bosnia,

4 currently even.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's the recollection of my colleagues, as

6 well as it is mine, so it must be a typing mistake at this moment. It's

7 also quite logical it's not the SFOR.

8 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed. Apologies otherwise.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Can we ask counsel and witness to pause between

10 questions and answers, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asked whether a short pause could be made between

12 the question and the answers to be given.

13 Mr. Kupusovic, if you would look at the screen, and perhaps look

14 at when it stops moving, that's where the interpretation and the

15 transcript is at a point where they can proceed. And if you would wait

16 until that moment before answering the question, yes, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, I'll bear that

18 in mind, Your Honour. Certainly.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You spoke to us about the referendum. Can you tell us who

21 organised the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. The referendum was organised by the government of the state of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, the decision for a referendum was made by

24 the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Do you happen to know whether the decision by that assembly of

Page 701

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina was in conformity with the BH constitution that was in

2 force at the time?

3 A. Yes, it was in conformity with the prevailing constitution and the

4 procedure for decision-making applicable in the assembly of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. When they took the decision for a referendum at the BH assembly,

7 did the deputies of Serb ethnicity take part as well?

8 A. They did take part, but the deputies of the SDS party withdrew

9 from the assembly meeting when it came to a vote on the referendum.

10 Q. Will you agree with me that that was the reason why the referendum

11 was in fact boycotted, the fact that the Serb deputies did not take part

12 in the work of the assembly?

13 A. As far as I know, the referendum was boycotted because of the

14 appeal made by Radovan Karadzic to sympathisers of the SDS not to come out

15 to the referendum. That's what I think.

16 Q. At that referendum for independence, did a two-thirds vote, or

17 more than two-thirds or less than two-thirds?

18 A. More than two-thirds voted of the voters listed, and the vast

19 majority, 99 point something of those who went out to vote, voted in

20 favour of Bosnia and Herzegovina's independence under the prevailing

21 conditions when the referendum -- on the day the referendum was held.

22 Q. Yesterday during your examination-in-chief you read out a

23 statement, and can you tell me how the idea was reached and the reasons

24 for making this statement of the 17th of April, I believe it was?

25 A. The situation around the referendum and the negotiations between

Page 702

1 the presidents of the three national parties took place at a republican

2 level. In the town itself, we followed this process and endeavoured to

3 define the town's position vis-a-vis what was happening at the level of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and with the outside world, so that of all the

5 presidents of the clubs, quite spontaneously, at a meeting that we held

6 to see what we could do as a city, the idea was reached to sign a

7 statement of that kind, by which we demonstrated, or wanted to demonstrate

8 to the citizens, that their representatives, elected representatives,

9 publicly, both for Sarajevo and for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and for the whole

10 world, were striving for a united city which would respect its age-old

11 heritage and values. And the important thing was that all the parties

12 agreed, the representatives of all the parties, and that is how we wrote

13 that statement and published it in the media and on television and over

14 the radio.

15 Q. Was one of the reasons the fact that the internationality

16 relations in the city of Sarajevo were upset?

17 A. No, they were not upset, and a statement of this kind confirmed

18 that, because it was signed precisely by -- that is to say, in its

19 creation, we had the participation of all the national and other parties.

20 Now, whether at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina relations had been

21 disrupted, because certain autonomous regions, Serbian and otherwise, had

22 already been proclaimed, so there were some proposals from the peaks of

23 the SDS about the division of the city into ethnic regions or districts,

24 which was not possible for Sarajevo, and completely unacceptable, of

25 course.

Page 703

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Page 704

1 Q. After the referendum that was held on the 29th and the 1st in

2 Sarajevo, were there any significant manifestations or rallies or

3 expressions of any particular positive or negative thoughts by the

4 citizens? Was there any positive or negative thinking on the part of the

5 citizens, and was this manifest in the streets?

6 A. Both in the streets and in the work of the town in general, there

7 were positive thoughts, as you said a moment ago, that they would not

8 follow the pattern of the events of Bijeljina or other towns in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that we would not be precipitous in that. And there

10 were peace movements that were emerging and initiatives to have Sarajevo

11 as the centre of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

12 not to be drawn into something like that, as happened in Vukovar or

13 Dubrovnik, for example, or in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not to be

14 pulled in in that way, where crisis staffs had been set up, the ones which

15 you mentioned, and which were based on an ethnic affiliation and which led

16 later on to the war that was to come for several years.

17 Q. Can you tell us something about the events of the 1st of March,

18 1992, which happened in Bascarsija?

19 A. I can't tell you anything about that, because I wasn't there, or

20 anywhere in the surroundings. There were different interpretations by the

21 press as to what had actually happened.

22 Q. What was in the press? What did the papers say about the event?

23 A. There was a wedding, and there was an incident that broke out.

24 Now, what actually happened, I don't know.

25 Q. Did the paper say that it was the first civilian to be killed in

Page 705

1 Sarajevo, that he was a Serb, and that he was killed by a Musan Topalovic,

2 Caco, who was later the commander of a unit in Sarajevo?

3 A. I hear that for the first time from you here and now, that it was

4 Musan Topalovic who performed that act. Actually, I don't know what

5 happened myself.

6 Q. Do you happen to know at that particular time in Sarajevo - and

7 when I say "that time," I'm thinking of March and April, because you

8 started speaking about the months of March and April - that paramilitary

9 units existed, that is to say, units which were called the Green Berets

10 and the Patriotic League?

11 A. I have also mentioned the groups that were called Bosna, and under

12 that heading we would include the Green Berets and others. They were

13 groups of self-organised young men, along with the reserve police

14 formations, or within the police force themselves, belonging to the MUP of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were not wearing uniforms, or neither were they

16 equipped, so in that sense they could have been paramilitary, but they

17 were not organised as any party or other kind of army. Quite simply,

18 there was fear as to what could happen. There were several thousand

19 people around the 2nd of May that started calling themselves the Green

20 Berets or the Bosna Group, and similar groups.

21 Q. So according to you, in March and April, nothing happened in

22 Sarajevo; is that right? Why, then, would the Green Berets have been

23 established, and other paramilitary formations or units, if I can call

24 them that?

25 A. I don't know when they were formed. I think they had already been

Page 706

1 formed earlier on. Now, I know some people who took part in them said

2 that they had been actually established earlier on. I heard about them

3 for the first time sometime in March and April, and I can't tell you

4 anything more about that.

5 Q. Do you happen to know that the Patriotic League was a party army

6 of the SDA party, in fact, and that it was established at the level of the

7 whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina with units, that units had existed since 1991,

8 in fact?

9 A. Well, I can't tell you for the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I

10 know for Sarajevo for sure; I know that no units of the Patriotic League

11 of any kind existed, nor did the Patriotic League -- nor was it an

12 organised formation in any way. I lived there, and I was even in the

13 assembly and places like that in town. What the SDA did there, I don't

14 really know. But what I took part in, I have already explained and

15 described. And in the part where I was, there was never anything about

16 those units. I don't know about them. But later on in May, when the

17 Territorial Defence grew to become the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I had

18 heard that there was a patriotic league of some kind or groups which had

19 some emblems of a democratic league but in fact they became the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Do you happen to know the names of Juka Prazina, Ramiz Delalic,

22 Celo, Musan Topalovic, Caco, and Ramiz Salcin? Can

23 you tie the formation of those units to those names?

24 A. Well, I know the names very well, just as all the other citizens

25 of Sarajevo do. Now, as to linking up those names or those people with

Page 707

1 the units, I know nothing about that.

2 Q. At that time, were the media working in Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes, television was working, when there was electricity. Yes, the

4 media were functioning.

5 Q. What about when there was no electricity? Could you follow

6 television and the rest of the media?

7 A. Well, if you had batteries, you could listen to your radio.

8 Television had a news broadcast, in the evening hours, televised a news

9 bulletin. So if there was electricity, then you could watch. If not, you

10 couldn't. You would have to rely on your radio and batteries if you had

11 them.

12 Q. When there was electricity and when the media were functioning,

13 were you able to follow the activities of those military units on

14 television, on the television programme in Sarajevo?

15 A. Up until October 1992, we did have electricity, and were therefore

16 able to watch television and follow the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

17 in the world, of course, linked to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Does the name Kerim Loncarevic, nicknamed "doctor" ring a bell?

19 A. Kerim Loncarevic was a colleague, a deputy in the municipal

20 assembly, so I do know the name, yes. I know him. And he is in Sarajevo

21 now.

22 Q. Do you know that he wrote a book?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And do you know that he had a military unit, military police unit

25 of his own?

Page 708

1 A. I know that for a time, he was the commander of a -- of the

2 military police and the staff of the Supreme Command of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He didn't have his own unit. His unit was a part of

4 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina of which he was a commander at that

5 particular time, that is to say, the second half of 1992 and until some

6 time in 1993.

7 Q. Do you happen to know that in 1992, in March and April, he was the

8 leader of a paramilitary formation which had its soldiers and that their

9 headquarters were in Dobrinja?

10 A. I lived in Dobrinja at the time, and there were no military or

11 paramilitary units except for the JNA in the barracks and at the airport.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

13 like to show the witness a text taken from a book written by Kerim

14 Loncarevic. The book was published in Sarajevo, and the title is "The

15 Battle for Sarajevo." And in the book, he describes the events in 1992.

16 And it was printed on the 12th of April, 2000, "Destined for Victory" is

17 the other title of the book.

18 With your permission, and subject to my learned colleagues'

19 agreement, I should like to have the witness shown a passage, a short

20 passage taken from that book. And I should like to ask the witness to

21 comment on the text.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I could

23 indicate to the Court that out of the three names given a moment ago by

24 Ms. Pilipovic, only one was mentioned in the transcript, and I think the

25 three names should be repeated perhaps.

Page 709

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Ms. Pilipovic, if you would please repeat

2 these names and then spell them out so that there can be no

3 misunderstanding.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Juka Prazina, Aramas Daramiccelo

5 [phoen], Musan Topalovic, Caco, Ramiz Salcin.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please now check in the transcript whether

7 the names are there in an acceptable spelling.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I see in the transcript that the

9 names have not been recorded properly. With your permission, we shall

10 write down the names and give them to the court reporters for them to

11 enter them into the transcript properly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. You have before you a text, and it's the 76th page, page 76,

15 taken from the book "The Battle for Sarajevo." And on page 76, could you

16 read the sentence that begins with, "I had previous designated the

17 critical spots, locations, in town ..."

18 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I fear I have to object to this

19 point. As I understand it, it has not been established that this witness

20 knows this author and this book or anything of that nature, and further,

21 that he has indicated he has already stated that he knew nothing of

22 paramilitaries or these people's names in connection with Dobrinja. So

23 I'm wondering that -- it is improper, I would suggest, that he should now

24 read any section of this material into the record of the transcript of the

25 Tribunal in circumstances where it's not been established that you have

Page 710

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Page 711

1 any knowledge of the subject about which he has been asked to read

2 outloud.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just confer with my colleagues for a moment,

4 please.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the objection of the Prosecution is

7 concerned - first I have to find my earphones - we would prefer if

8 Ms. Pilipovic would agree that he reads this part of the book. There's no

9 discussion about whether this is a part of the book, I understand, or is

10 there any discussion about it? She reads it to the witness, and then

11 can ask any question about whether this brings something into his mind,

12 which is of course possible. And it's not a final answer that he has

13 given now. It has not been much many detail, in general terms.

14 So Ms. Pilipovic, if you would be willing to read the part

15 yourself in the original and then ask questions about it to the witness.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. I had previously designated the critical locations in town. I

19 believe my fighters -- my fighters were in Dobrinja. Brijesce and

20 Buljakov Potok was Smajo Sukalo [phoen]. Smajo was there with the

21 intervention platoon unit. At Kosevsko Polje, there was Dzilda with a

22 complete unit. Ramiz Salcin was in Svrakino Selo. The intervention unit

23 of Tabija was at Vratnik. Igor with the MGM was at Ali Pasino Polje.

24 Zoran with the mambes was in the C-phase of Ali Pasino Polje. The command

25 of the military police with three onslaught intervention units was at

Page 712

1 Bjelave. Topa was at the national bank. Celo was at Vrbanja bridge.

2 Ejup at Koblija Glava. And Ramiz was protecting Vratnik with his

3 fighters. Tiab with his intervention unit was at the brewery. Delta with

4 the Aljic brothers was in Velesici. My brother Zuti did not go from

5 Otoka.

6 Can we defend occupied Sarajevo? Can we stand up to the tanks

7 that are about to leave the barracks?

8 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, before my learned friend asks

9 questions of the witness I do note there are certain areas where the

10 translation that we have does not entirely accord with what has been now

11 translated to us as my learned friend has been reading. And I suppose the

12 most significant of those is that there was mention particularly of

13 somebody was -- well, I'm afraid the names are missing from the

14 transcript. But there was somebody there with a complete unit, and that

15 particular reference is totally missing from our translation.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, but they did not

17 have a copy of the translation or the text.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The translator tells me they did not have a copy

19 beforehand. Perhaps this is not even bad because we now see that there

20 can be some differences.

21 Could you please point exactly -- perhaps in relation to any name

22 where there was a difference of translation so that we can clarify this

23 point.

24 MR. BLAXILL: Grant me a moment if you would, Mr. President.

25 Well the particular reference I have, if you look at the

Page 713

1 transcript, Your Honour, is at line 20 on page 47 of the transcript. It's

2 towards the upper third of the screen. And there was the very specific

3 reference to somebody being there with a complete unit, and I recall that

4 that certainly is not in the translation of this passage that was actually

5 handed to us by the Defence at the commencement of the break. This was

6 their translation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, this is approximately the

8 third -- it's right in the beginning of the text. And since there are

9 some difficulties in translation, I would like to clarify it. I would

10 just look at my other screen. You translated "My fighters were in

11 Dobrinja." That's the second line. Then a couple of names are missing

12 with -- when it comes to with the intervention platoon unit, intervening

13 unit. And then I think we have got three names, Ramiz was in Svrakino

14 Selo -- could you please read in translation the second part of the third

15 line and the first part of the fourth line, perhaps in the English

16 translation. You read some English, or perhaps you could be assisted by

17 your colleague. Yes? He nods no, but you say yes. So I keep you to your

18 spoken word.

19 Could you please take this part again so that we see that there's

20 a proper translation about the complete unit. Some person with a complete

21 unit. Is this right or wrong in the translation, and perhaps you could

22 ask the translators to look at the original text. Have they got an

23 original text?

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not been provided with the

25 original text.

Page 714

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, could you provide the

3 interpreters with the original text because that's really necessary to

4 sort this out.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I was

6 going to propose to the Tribunal, to give the original text to the

7 interpreters so a complete reading can be given out of this text so it

8 would be much more simple.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take care of that when you produce

10 another text, that there are originals always available for the

11 interpreters' booth. This is a matter of order.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I've taken note of it

13 personally, Mr. President, and also my colleague personally, Mr.

14 President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 I tried to identify the exact place what we are discussing about,

17 and that is the line that is immediately followed by the sentence that

18 begins with Ramiz. So could you please read in the original text the

19 sentence preceding the sentence that begins with Ramiz. I think it starts

20 with something like "in Brijesce". Read it, and then we have it translated

21 by the interpreters in the booth, and then we'll see whether we can agree

22 on that translation. Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the fifth row, I

24 have the beginning of a sentence beginning with "Ramiz Salcin".

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in the translation, it's the third line. So the

Page 715

1 sentence preceding the line that begins with "Ramiz Salcin". I think it's

2 the second sentence of the text you ...

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] At Kosevsko Brdo, there was Dzilda

4 with a complete unit.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what you translated, the complete

6 unit. It's in our translation, it's different. It says in Brijesce and

7 Buljakov Potok was Smajo Sukalo [phoen] with the intervening unit.

8 Would you agree that the translation as given by the interpreters

9 is a correct one?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then that's the translation we rely upon.

12 Thank you. You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Kupusovic, I have read out the text from this book on page

15 76. You spoke to us yesterday about tanks leaving the barracks. Can you

16 agree with me that these units and these young men opposed the tanks

17 which, as they put it, should have left the barracks?

18 A. I read this out carefully, and I've already said, here it says

19 that at Dobrinja, the author says "My fighters were there. I lived in

20 Dobrinja and there were no units at Dobrinja except for JNA units around

21 Dobrinja, at he airport and at the Mojmilo water reservoir." There were

22 tanks coming out of the barracks in February and in March and in April

23 1992. And those were allegedly exercises by the JNA, and nobody opposed

24 them. As for the other units, I know nothing about them. You will

25 probably put that question to the Witness, the author of this book.

Page 716

1 Q. You told us that you eyewitnessed the events of the 2nd of May,

2 1992 when from the Marsal Tito barracks, soldiers with tanks were coming

3 out. You told us that a conflict broke out, that in that fighting, among

4 others, some young men had taken part. Would you allow the possibility

5 for these young men and these units to have resisted the tanks?

6 A. I know that the special forces of the MUP and the reserve police

7 force and maybe these young men, if you want to put to that way, there

8 were some other young men in addition to these, who belonged to the armed

9 formations of Bosnia-Herzegovina, therefore, the police, who resisted,

10 because they were in the city assembly. And from the windows, they told

11 me they could see tanks approaching the Presidency building, which is next

12 door to this building. And that is where the clash occurred.

13 I, myself, was actually in the street. I was an eyewitness seeing

14 the tanks opening fire at the Presidency and the city assembly, and fire

15 was returned from those buildings against those tanks. But let me correct

16 myself: As far as I know, they didn't come out of the Marsal Tito

17 barracks, but rather, from Lukavica, and they came from the other side of

18 the Miljacka river.

19 Q. Was this a column with soldiers in it?

20 A. Yes, yes. They were armoured transportors, APCs, a column of some

21 10 or 15 or more vehicles.

22 Q. Do you know who was in that column as you were an eyewitness?

23 A. JNA vehicles.

24 Q. Do you know that your president was in that column, Alija

25 Izetbegovic?

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1 A. I don't remember whether that was that very event, because there

2 was another situation when the column in which the president of the

3 Presidency was in - Izetbegovic - returning from the negotiations in

4 Lisbon, he was captured, he spent the night in the barracks, and then the

5 next day there was simultaneous moving out of the JNA command at Bistrik,

6 and this transport of Izetbegovic to the Presidency.

7 As far as I can recollect, this event and the one we are now

8 discussing did not occur on the same day, so that this column which was

9 coming out, headed by General Kukajac, from the command and the other one

10 from Lukavica. That is one event. And the other one is when trams were

11 set alight, and when on the 2nd of May in the city of Sarajevo, the war

12 began.

13 Q. And when was that other event that you said -- that you mentioned

14 when there were soldiers in the column as well as Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

15 Was that on the 3rd of May?

16 A. I don't remember the exact date.

17 Q. On the 2nd of May, you said that citizens were killed, that they

18 were shooting from the Presidency building towards the banks and the

19 Marsal Tito barracks.

20 A. I didn't say towards the barracks.

21 Q. Very well, the tanks then. Were soldiers in the column killed on

22 that occasion, as you were an eyewitness?

23 A. I wasn't an eyewitness of the actual battle, of the actual

24 fighting. I was at Marijin Dvor, and this was happening at Skenderija.

25 This is several hundred metres away. But it was shown on television that

Page 719

1 evening, some soldiers were killed. And several APCs and tanks were

2 destroyed and set on fire. But on the other side, on the buildings, there

3 were traces of shells that were fired from those tanks, most probably, but

4 I wasn't the -- a direct eyewitness of that.

5 Q. What do you know about the event when president Alija Izetbegovic

6 was in the column? Were there any incidents on that occasion?

7 A. This was covered by television. And according to my recollection,

8 an incident occurred when the column from the command at the Bistrik and

9 the other one with president Izetbegovic in it, under the control of the

10 UN - everything was happening under their control - when an incident

11 occurred and conflict began. But I don't recollect the details, because I

12 only saw it on television.

13 The situation was already stressful. And there was a lot of fear

14 that I felt and all the other citizens as to what was going

15 on, and that was in fact when the war began in earnest. It was

16 inconceivable somehow that the JNA should exchange its own general for the

17 president of the Presidency who had actually been captured the night

18 before in the barracks, who had been held there together with Zlatko

19 Lagomdzija, who in those days was in opposition to the ruling national

20 parties.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge that on that occasion, president Alija

22 Izetbegovic arrived from Lisbon, that nobody came to great him at the

23 airport, and that the army, in order to protect him, kept him at the

24 Lukavica barracks?

25 A. You would have to ask him as well as the military who held him

Page 720

1 because interpretations of that event differed in the media, and I really

2 do not have any direct knowledge of it.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that throughout the time of conflict in

4 Sarajevo, the media carried various misinformation and different

5 interpretations of various events?

6 A. Of course there was misinformation, and there was even such a

7 report that the son of Karadzic had joined the BH army, and we

8 believed it for two days, and then we realised it was wartime propaganda

9 by the Bosnian media. And as to what was being reported about Sarajevo in

10 the media by Pale, Belgrade, and other stations, as we were living there,

11 we knew how much there was that was -- that were falsehoods and false

12 interpretations.

13 It is well known that in wartime, the truth is the first

14 casualty. What one lives through and sees with one's own eyes and one

15 hears with one's own ears is one's own conception of the truth, and that

16 is all I can talk about. What the media reported is up to the media.

17 Q. In view of the fact that you told us that you took part in the

18 work of the War Presidency, did you know that at the level of the

19 republic, the Territorial Defence issued an order to attack all barracks

20 and capture or appropriate the military property -- the military assets

21 from those barracks?

22 A. At the level of the republic, it was the Presidency of the Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina who made the decisions, and I hear of such a decision for

24 the first time from you.

25 Q. You told us that you watched and followed the media. Did you know

Page 721

1 from the media or from personal knowledge that there was a mortar attack

2 on the Marsal Tito barracks and that all the barracks in town were

3 attacked on the 2nd of May, 1992?

4 A. What I know from personal knowledge is that there were no such

5 attacks. What the media reported, I don't know. But that in an

6 atmosphere of tension that started following the referendum, it is

7 possible that such conflicts occurred. I'm not denying it.

8 Q. Do you know that in the JNA barracks, in those days - and when I

9 say "those days," I mean the period from the 19th of May, 1992, when the

10 JNA army left Sarajevo - was the water supply and the electricity supply

11 cut off to the barracks?

12 A. No. As far as I know, no, it was not. The Presidency of the city

13 came into being later. But unlike the media interpretations from Croatia,

14 this did not occur in Bosnia-Herzegovina because the JNA until these

15 events was considered to be our army.

16 Q. Until when was it considered to be your army?

17 A. Until after the 2nd of May, 1992, in my opinion. It was an army

18 which would preserve peace, even if it were to remain only a Serb army,

19 that is, an army in which all the officers and soldiers are Serbs.

20 Q. You told us that the army, the JNA, had already in March taken up

21 positions on Mojmilo hill where the water reservoir was. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is what I said. And as far as I remember, that was

23 prior to these events on the 2nd of May.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to which brigade that was?

25 A. I don't know which brigade it was, but it was reported in the

Page 722

1 media that it was a unit from Lukavica.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, when I interrupted the witness, I

3 apologise, but I would like to make a break rather soon. So if you would

4 finish with this question or perhaps the next question, see whether

5 there's a proper moment to stop. Thank you.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Did you know that the brigade that was at Mojmilo at the time was

8 under the command of Hadzihasanovic, who was the commander of that

9 brigade?

10 A. I learned that later from the media. But at the time, he was

11 a JNA officer, and as such, he was given orders, and he acted

12 accordingly, at least, that was how it was reported, that he captured

13 those high features above the new part of the city, including the water

14 reservoir at Mojmilo.

15 Q. Can you agree with me that the water reservoir was protected at

16 the time by the JNA so that the citizens of Sarajevo should have water?

17 A. The reservoirs should be protected by the water supply staff.

18 There was no need for the JNA to protect it. And this caused fear among

19 the people, local people. Why should the army and guns and cannons

20 protect the water reservoir? If such protection was necessary, it should

21 have been done by the police.

22 Q. Did you know what was situated on the other side of the Mojmilo

23 hill? Because one part of Mojmilo hill faces Dobrinja. What about the

24 other side of Mojmilo hill?

25 A. You mean the other side of the hill Ali Pasino Polje, another

Page 723

1 settlement and Ali Pasino bridge? And further on towards Trebevic is the

2 Lukavica barracks, which is some 30 kilometres from that hill.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is this a good place to stop? Thank

4 you very much.

5 Before the break, I would just like to remind you that of course

6 we lost a couple of minutes with these translation problems. As far as

7 I understand, on the 29th of November, the co-counsel has been informed

8 about the procedures. And since I am quite sure he wants to avoid as much

9 loss of time as I want to avoid it, I would urge both parties always to

10 give any original text prior to the beginning of the Court session so that

11 the interpreters' booth has available this text already.

12 Then I would like to have a break for -- I would say until quarter

13 to 6.00, if that's fine. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So everyone is present, apart from the witness. I

17 would just like to make one remark at this moment. As I indicated, after

18 Mr. Kupusovic has been examined by the parties, I would like to have a

19 short Status Conference, because some issues still have to be discussed.

20 In order to -- not to lose too much time, I would finish today by

21 just five minutes closed session in order to see whether all the parties

22 have got everything they need for this Status Conference, that all the

23 documents are there, that we know what we are talking about, in order not

24 to lose any time if it comes tomorrow to this Status Conference. So the

25 last five minutes will be reserved for that and will be in closed session.

Page 724

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Page 725

1 Mr. Usher, will you please bring in the witness.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought

3 in, might I clarify that comment that you have just made. Are you

4 proposing to have a Status Conference tonight or tomorrow?

5 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to have a Pre-Status Conference today in

6 order to make quite sure that no one comes up tomorrow saying, well, I

7 haven't got this document. I don't know whether there is still a motion

8 pending on that. Just so that we know exactly what we are talking about

9 tomorrow. We are not going to discuss any motions today. Perhaps we may

10 make a few remarks. But so that everyone is well prepared, in order to

11 avoid any loss of time tomorrow.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 The Defence would like, prior to the continuation of the

16 cross-examination, to tender Document -- "The Battle for Sarajevo," page

17 76, which we read out, and the witness confirmed the names that were

18 familiar to him. He knows Ramiz. He spoke about the tanks. And the

19 Defence would like to tender this page of the book, page 76, into evidence

20 as Exhibit D/1.

21 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, the Prosecution would offer an

22 objection in respect of that on the basis, again, of an evidential

23 foundation. It is the fact that whilst certain names were simply known to

24 the witness, and he said he had seen some columns of tanks, nothing in

25 what he said in response to my learned friend indicated any link between

Page 726

1 his knowledge and the actual contents of this text and article as

2 such. And as a result, the Prosecution would object on the basis of a

3 failure to establish evidential foundation to introduce this as an exhibit

4 in the trial to be taken into account by Your Honours

5 as a matter of evidence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: As you may have noticed, Mr. Blaxill, my attention

7 was drawn for one moment by the court manager. So if you would allow me

8 just to read the transcript on question, the remark you just made. If you

9 can give me half a minute.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: After I have consulted my colleagues, we invite the

12 Defence to explain to this Chamber what the relevance is of this document

13 in view of the answers given to the questions.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness confirmed

15 that he knows Mr. Kerim Loncarevic, that he was a deputy together with

16 him, that he knows that he was the commander of a unit, checking the

17 credibility of the witness, the witness would like, in this way -- sorry,

18 the Defence would like to call in question the testimony of this witness

19 who yesterday and today described all the details and appeared to have

20 knowledge about everything that went on in Sarajevo. It is the position

21 of the Defence that the witness, in view of his role in the War

22 Presidency, knew what was going on in Sarajevo and how certain

23 paramilitary units behaved in Sarajevo. The Defence considers this

24 document to be relevant as evidence for the Defence.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 727

1 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, if we may interject with just one, one

2 or two points here. To the best of my recollection s regards to the

3 evidence given by Mr. Kupusovic, he certainly has conceded to my learned

4 friend that he knew the gentleman Loncarevic, the apparent author of this

5 text. I do not recall him stating that he knew, and I do stand to be

6 corrected if I am wrong, but I don't recall him saying that he knew that

7 the man led a unit of any kind of military or paramilitary. And indeed, I

8 do recall that Mr. Kupusovic indicated that the Presidency to which he

9 belonged was a city Presidency and was a purely civilian affair and that

10 it was the state level War Presidency that dealt with all matters

11 military, and he did state that in his evidence in chief. I therefore

12 would contest the idea that he by virtue of what has now been said can be

13 deemed to be someone who had knowledge of all military matters that went

14 on in Sarajevo. He spoke exclusively as the experience of civilians and

15 civilian authorities. That's my recollection, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand what you mean. As far as I do

17 understand the Defence is that using this text, they are aiming at

18 demonstrating that the witness was far more detailed in his statements on

19 the questions that were put to him yesterday, and that he is less in

20 detail on what he -- on the questions that have been put to him today. So

21 without going into any detail on every single line of the -- of what

22 Ms. Pilipovic has said about relevance is true or not, I stay out of

23 that. But on the basis of that intention, the Chamber will accept this

24 document as an exhibit, which of course doesn't say anything about any

25 probative value either of the document or of any statement later on.

Page 728

1 So the objection is rejected, and please, Ms. Pilipovic, would you

2 proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You told us that you were a member of the War Presidency. Will

5 you tell us what your duties were in that War Presidency?

6 A. I was a member of the Presidency of the city assembly in wartime,

7 and that is why I accepted the term you used, "War Presidency," though

8 with regard to any military matters, it was not a War Presidency. In

9 addition to the town mayor and the deputy mayor, who was a lady and who

10 chaired the Presidency meetings, the other members did not have any

11 specific responsibilities except for the fact that in view of my

12 expertise, I was more involved in dealing with matters of water supply for

13 the city.

14 Q. What was the situation with respect to water supply in March,

15 April, and May? Was the water turned off, and was there a shortage of

16 water?

17 A. No, the water supply was regular.

18 Q. You told us that in April and May, there were incidents and

19 clashes which escalated, according to what you said, on the 2nd of May,

20 1992. In those days, were there any movements of the population in the

21 sense that Serbs from parts of the town where the Muslims were in the

22 majority moved to parts of the town where the Serbs were in a majority,

23 and the Muslims to the urban part of the city where the Muslims were in

24 the majority?

25 A. There were no such population movements within the city. But

Page 729

1 already in March and April, there were Muslim refugees coming from

2 villages around Sarajevo who thought they would be safer in town. And

3 that they were not safe in those villages.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the Serbs leaving the urban part of

5 the city, as you call it, and leaving Sarajevo?

6 A. I said, and I repeat, that a couple of thousand of citizens of

7 Sarajevo, before the 2nd of May, when the railroad and air traffic was

8 discontinued, left the city, but this applied to all citizens regardless

9 of ethnic origin. But there were probably more Serbs percentage-wise than

10 in the town as a whole because the families of Serb officers were

11 leaving. Those were the reports in the media, though I'm sure no one has

12 precise data about that.

13 Q. Do you know that a separation line was established between the

14 Serb and Muslim part of the city, or Bosniak part of the city?

15 A. There's no such thing as a Serb and a Muslim part of the city, and

16 no such lines were established.

17 Q. Do you know that a separation line was established in relation to

18 the Grbavica district which had a majority Serb population?

19 A. Grbavica did not have a majority Serb population, but there were

20 quite a number of JNA officers living at Grbavica, and the line with

21 Grbavica was established after the barracks was evacuated as the part of

22 the town under the control of the army of Republika Srpska, which accounts

23 for about 25 -- 5 percent of the area of the city.

24 Q. Did the Croats of Sarajevo organise themselves as the HVO?

25 A. As a party, the HDZ was established in Sarajevo, and as far as I

Page 730

1 can remember, the HVO appeared sometime in May or June 1992, as did the

2 HOS, H-O-S, as an organisation whose members were predominantly Croat.

3 Q. In what part of the towns were the Croats mostly concentrated?

4 A. Nowhere in particular except, as I have mentioned, in the village

5 of Stup, which after the second world war, became a component part of the

6 city so that locally, there were several thousands Croats living there,

7 and on a local level, they were in the majority. But as soon as you went

8 beyond that, the population was mixed.

9 Q. In Sarajevo was there a conflict between the Croats and Muslims?

10 A. No.

11 Q. According to your knowledge, would you agree with me when I say

12 that Sarajevo was divided up into a city with a majority Serb population,

13 the Muslim part of town and the Croatian part of town? Would you agree

14 with me there?

15 A. No, not at all. Just Grbavica after the control was taken over

16 from the army of Republika Srpska. After the army of Republika Srpska

17 took control, it became a majority Serb area because the others left. The

18 Muslims and Croats who had lived there left their apartments without

19 anything, and they had to leave that part of town, move to another part of

20 town, or to move through the territory under the control of the army

21 Republika Srpska on to third countries.

22 Q. What about the Ilidza Vogosca Trnovo municipalities?

23 A. They were municipalities which were located in -- around the urban

24 part of Sarajevo.

25 Q. Under whose control were those particular municipalities?

Page 731

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Page 732

1 A. The municipality of Trnovo, as far as I remember, a couple of

2 times changed from being under the control of the army of Republika Srpska

3 and the BH army and vice versa. Whereas Ilidza and Vogosca, throughout

4 that time, as settlements, were under the control of the army of Republika

5 Srpska. But parts of the territory of those municipalities were also

6 controlled by the BH army.

7 Q. What about the Pale municipality?

8 A. Pale municipality was throughout under the control of the army of

9 Republika Srpska. Most of the municipality, a part of it towards the

10 Drina river, was under the control of the BH army.

11 Q. What about the Stari Grad, Novo Sarajevo, and Centar? Those

12 municipalities, what about them?

13 A. The situation there was similar but opposite. The urban part of

14 town where the population lived, they were under an encirclement. Whereas

15 parts of the municipalities which stretched towards the mountains and were

16 sparsely populated, and the sparsely populated areas around the city

17 itself, were under the control of the army of Republika Srpska.

18 Q. You mentioned mountains. Which mountains were they? Which of the

19 mountains surrounding Sarajevo, in fact?

20 A. Trebevic, Ozren, Jahorina, Romanija. Then on the other side,

21 Bukovik, Treposko and the peaks of Bukovik stretching towards -- and of

22 course Mount Igman.

23 Q. Yes, and of course Mount Igman. What are the dominant hills

24 around Sarajevo? You said Mojmilo hill. Would you agree with me, that

25 that is -- there was Debelo Brdo, Colina Kapa, Zuc, and Hum, that those

Page 733

1 were the hills?

2 A. Yes, those were the dominant hills, but I would add Spicasta

3 Stijena.

4 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, under whose control were those

5 hills?

6 A. These hills were under the control of the JNA, and later on the

7 army of Republika Srpska. But Zuc hill, in the fighting between the BH

8 army units and the Republika Srpska army was won by these units in the

9 defence of the town.

10 Q. What about Hum hill?

11 A. Hum hill throughout that time -- actually it is almost in town,

12 and that is where the television antenna is and tower, and it was

13 targeted in April by JNA planes and rockets. But as a hill within the

14 city, it remained throughout in the encirclement that was positioned

15 around Sarajevo.

16 Q. Which army was on and around the hill?

17 A. At the top of the hill was the television tower. There was no

18 army there. And later on, there were UN units stationed there. And

19 around the hill, or rather, in the settlements around the hill, when it

20 was established, it was under the control of the units of the BH army.

21 Q. What about Colina Kapa, big and small, Velika Colina Kapa? Under

22 whose control was that? And what area of Sarajevo can be seen from those

23 hills?

24 A. Velika and Mala Colina Kapa, parts of Trebevic. I don't know the

25 details. But they were somewhere around the demarcation line. I think

Page 734

1 that Velika Colina Kapa was always under the control of the army of

2 Republika Srpska, whereas the Mala Colina Kapa, which is a little lower,

3 was practically no man's land in between, because underneath Mala Colina

4 Kapa were the first houses, and that was where the defence

5 of Sarajevo was. And after that, we have forest land, and the slopes of

6 Trebevic, which is where the snipers and artillery of the Republika Srpska

7 army were located.

8 Q. You mentioned snipers belonging to the army of Republika Srpska.

9 Do you happen to know that the Muslim paramilitary formations at the

10 beginning and later on the BH army had snipers?

11 A. As to the beginning, I don't know about that. I know nothing

12 about that. But later on, as the army developed during the war, in the

13 media, news of that kind was broadcast, but I know nothing about that.

14 Q. While you were performing your functions in the War Presidency,

15 you had contacts with the Territorial Defence of the city. You were --

16 you dealt with the organisation of the water supply system and so on and

17 so forth.

18 MR. BLAXILL: I hate to interrupt, but I object to -- in this

19 sense of using War Presidency. I think it's leading to confusion with the

20 state War Presidency. The witness has given a distinction between the

21 two, and I think he denied knowledge of military matters as well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be able to, Ms. Pilipovic, to rephrase your

23 question in such a way that any confusion will be avoided?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness agreed

25 with the Defence that after the proclamation of the general mobilisation

Page 735

1 at the level of the town, a War Presidency was functioning. The witness

2 and the Defence agreed upon that. I'm not asking him about military

3 matters; I'm just asking him about the functioning of the Territorial

4 Defence of the city of Sarajevo.

5 JUDGE ORIE: When you are talking about a War Presidency, you mean

6 to say the Presidency that was functioning at the time of war? Is

7 that what you mean to say?

8 Is that acceptable to the Prosecution in order

9 to avoid any misunderstanding? Thank you.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned colleague

11 has just brought my attention to the fact that the names of the mountains

12 have not been recorded in the transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I explain that to you. Sometimes names, it

14 takes a bit more time, and during this evening or overnight, these

15 names - even of mountains - rocks are very solid, as you know. They will

16 be there in proper order tomorrow in the transcript, and you can check it

17 then. Please proceed.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that on the territory of

20 the city of Sarajevo, a factory called Zrak existed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In which part of Sarajevo was that?

23 A. It's under Mojmilo hill.

24 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, who controlled that part of town,

25 that part of Sarajevo where the Zrak factory was located?

Page 736

1 A. It is in the town itself and was inaccessible throughout that

2 time, directly to those who had encircled the town, which is to say that

3 it was located in town.

4 Q. Do you know that the factory produced weapons?

5 A. I know that before the war, it produced optical instruments for

6 the Yugoslav people's army.

7 Q. What about during the war, in that part of town, did it produce

8 optical sights, optic sights?

9 A. I don't know. But I don't think it was working during the war

10 because it had nothing to work with.

11 Q. Do you know the name of Stjepan Siber? Does that ring a bell, and

12 did you happen to encounter him during the conflicts in Sarajevo?

13 A. I know the name Stjepan Siber, and I did have occasion to meet him

14 several times in the joint commission which went to the airport for

15 negotiations with the opposite side.

16 Q. I am going to show you a book written by Mr. Stjepan Siber. It is

17 called "Deceptions, misconceptions and the Truth," and it is a wartime

18 diary kept by Mr. Stjepan Siber, published in 1992.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to ensure that the interpreters' booth has a

20 copy, and we will be provided with a copy as well.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The previous document will be Exhibit D1, and the

23 English translation will be D1.1.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

25 I should like to read two lines from that book, from that wartime diary.

Page 737

1 It is the 16th of May, 1992, the entry for the 16th of May, 1992.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If you please wait until they have got the copies so

3 they can better follow your reading.

4 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. "The 16th of May, at a high level meeting of commanders, we

7 conclude that 540 pieces of sniper rifles from the Zrak factory were

8 equally distributed to the units in the defence of the city."

9 Witness, may I ask you my question pursuant to that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My question is: Do you know that 550 sniper rifles from the Zrak

12 factory was distributed to units in the city?

13 A. I have no knowledge about that.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 You have told us that -- can you tell us how many barracks there

16 were in the former JNA in Sarajevo?

17 A. There were a number of barracks, 10, 15, if you count some of the

18 smaller facilities of the JNA, warehouses or things like that. 15 to 20

19 in town, thereabouts.

20 Q. Do you know where they were located and how many soldiers there

21 were in the barracks?

22 A. I have no idea as to the number of soldiers, but the largest

23 barracks was the Marsal Tito barracks, and then there was the command of

24 the city at Bistrik, the JNA command, and there was a barracks at Vratnik,

25 and one in Nedzarici, and some other barracks which I don't exactly know

Page 738

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Page 739

1 where they were.

2 Q. Do you know what was in Rajlovac?

3 A. There was a sports airfield in Rajlovac, and also a military part,

4 section of the airport before the war.

5 Q. Do you know that during the conflict, those barracks were used by

6 the soldiers of the BH army?

7 A. I don't know which barracks you mean, you have in mind. The

8 Marsal Tito barracks, the JNA left the Marsal Tito barracks and then the

9 special police and de-mining unit was set up there and was used partially

10 by the BH army and the United Nations forces. It was -- the rest was

11 under the control of -- Rajlovac was under the control of the army of

12 Republika Srpska. And when the JNA moved out of the barracks, like in the

13 Marsal Tito barracks, it shelled it from the positions around town. And

14 they remained as ruins, or as seriously destroyed facilities. And they

15 were used in town -- in that state for the requirements of the BH army.

16 Q. Can you tell us where the Supreme Command of the BH army was

17 located?

18 A. I know that at a time it was in the Vranica company in that

19 building. Otherwise I wouldn't know.

20 Q. The Vranica company was a civilian facility, a civilian building,

21 was it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does that mean that the Supreme Command of the BH army was set up

24 in a civilian facility?

25 A. It was the building of the administration of a large civil

Page 740

1 engineering firm. As far as I know, the command of the army moved in in

2 the autumn in 1992 because the building was quite empty. The company was

3 no longer working and there was nobody there in the building. So it

4 became a military facility from that time on.

5 Q. Can you tell us, please, where the staff and headquarters of the

6 1st Corps of the BH army was located?

7 A. The staff and headquarters of the 1st Corps, well that was

8 established only later on. For a time it was in the headquarters of the

9 territorial Defence at Ciglane, that part of town where the territorial

10 Defence was located before the war. And somewhere towards the end of the

11 war, it was moved to the Zrak company.

12 Q. Do you happen to know that the members of the Muslim paramilitary

13 forces and later on the members of the BH army used civilian buildings and

14 facilities for their own purposes?

15 A. I have no knowledge of any Muslim paramilitary forces. And

16 likewise, I know nothing about the use of civilian facilities for military

17 purposes.

18 Q. Do you happen to know what parts of town and what facilities were

19 the staffs of the brigades set up, the core of the army? And there were

20 more than ten of them, let me remind you.

21 A. There were a number of those staffs in the course of the war, and

22 they moved around. But as the civilian Presidency of the city, we had no

23 part in that, and I personally have no knowledge of where the commands of

24 the individual brigades and the 1st Corps in particular were set up and

25 where they moved around during the war, which facilities they occupied.

Page 741

1 Q. Do you know how many soldiers the BH army corps consisted of?

2 A. I think that towards the end of the war the figure bandied about

3 was 40.000 soldiers with the proviso that two-thirds of that was said to

4 be outside the encirclement, and about 10 or 15.000 were in town. But

5 those were facts and figures published by the media. I have no personal

6 knowledge of that subject.

7 Q. You said that there was -- police were in Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes, the police force was put up in the police facilities and

9 buildings, which means in the police stations that existed before the war

10 and also in some other houses next to the first lines of defence, the

11 first front lines. I know that because regardless of the fact that the

12 Presidency of the town had no competencies over the police, we did

13 cooperate for purposes of law and order in the city itself in battling

14 with crime and the black market. So the police there assisted our own

15 inspections in that respect frequently.

16 Q. Do you happen to know what the soldiers of the BH army wore? How

17 were they clothed? That is to say, the soldiers in Sarajevo, did they all

18 wear military uniforms?

19 A. At the beginning, no, they did not. They didn't have any

20 uniforms, and then these uniforms were established with the insignia of

21 the BH army. And regardless of the shortage of uniforms, the soldiers did

22 have the insignia of the lily, the crest with the lily. Later on they had

23 different uniforms which were of different cuts and colours, but all with

24 the emblems and insignia of the lily with crossed swords, the crossed

25 sword and lily emblem of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the lily being the insignia

Page 742

1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and crossed swords of the army.

2 Q. So that means all of them had military uniforms?

3 A. I said that not at the beginning. There were no uniforms at the

4 beginning, just the insignia, but as the war developed, soldiers could be

5 recognised by the uniforms they wore. But they would very rarely move

6 around town. They were units who were on the fringes of the city

7 providing a defence for the town. And it was only in the second half of

8 the war or thereabouts that we can say that all of them had uniforms.

9 Q. Were you personally a military recruit, or did you have any

10 military assignment, conscript?

11 A. Because I was -- I did not do my military service in the JNA for

12 health reasons; I was not a military conscript. I was unfit for service.

13 And when the Presidency of the city was established at the beginning of

14 June 1992, that was my work assignment at the same time. And I had my

15 assignments -- work assignments at the university and at the institute as

16 director until I became the mayor in March 1994, when that became my

17 professional duty and preoccupation.

18 Q. In March 1994, you said you had a work assignment, and that in

19 1994, you became mayor. In 1992 and 1993, in view of the fact that we

20 agreed that an army did exist, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the

21 army of Republika Srpska with the Romanija Corps, until you had become

22 mayor, in that period before you became mayor, was there fighting in town

23 between those, if I can call them that, two armies?

24 A. There was fighting around the city, and a number of attempts to

25 lift the siege and encirclement. And in the town itself, at Grbavica, the

Page 743

1 demarcation line there at Grbavica, there was constant fighting the

2 between two armies. There was fighting between the two armies.

3 Q. Do you know that at the Ciglane, the tunnel leading out of the

4 town, that a tank had been deployed there?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In that period of time, that is to say before you, yourself,

7 became mayor, was there any substantial movement in the demarcation line?

8 A. The only thing that happened was that the hill of Zuc was

9 liberated. As to other movements, they were very slight, either to the

10 detriment of the town or towards expanding the territory within the city.

11 Q. During that time, did you go to Dobrinja?

12 A. In the summer of 1993, I went for the first time after May the

13 1st, 1992. I managed to go to Dobrinja to find photographs and other

14 mementos from my burnt apartment in Dobrinja, and you had to go there

15 through trenches because that was the line of defence of the city. And I

16 went there as a civilian, as an ordinary citizen, to collect some toys for

17 the children and some other mementoes, from what remained of my apartment,

18 the one I used to live in.

19 Q. You said that it was Dobrinja I. Under control whose was Dobrinja

20 I at the time that you went in 1993?

21 A. It was under control of the BH army.

22 Q. And what about the Dobrinja II, III, IV, and V?

23 A. Almost the whole of Dobrinja was under the control of the BH army

24 except for the part right next to Lukavica, the barracks in Lukavica. So

25 that a part of Dobrinja I was under the control of the BH army, and the

Page 744

1 other part behind the side street leading to the main street was under the

2 control of the Republika Srpska so that the building I lived in was

3 actually on the front line of defence.

4 Q. While you were town mayor of Sarajevo, did the city receive

5 humanitarian aid?

6 A. Yes, it did.

7 Q. Who did that humanitarian aid come from?

8 A. Humanitarian aid to the city of Sarajevo itself, independently

9 from the UNHRC and other international humanitarian organisations, was

10 sent by cities all over the world which sympathised with the suffering of

11 the people of Sarajevo.

12 Q. Did Serbs receive that humanitarian aid?

13 A. You mean those living in Sarajevo?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Of course they did. Humanitarian aid was distributed in Sarajevo

16 regardless of ethnicity.

17 Q. You told us that in the urban part of Sarajevo, about 30 to 40.000

18 Serbs had remained. Could those Serbs leave Sarajevo and could they go to

19 Grbavica?

20 A. At the end of the war, the assessment was that some 40.000 Serbs

21 remained, but during the first two years of the war that we are

22 discussing, there were more Serbs. Out of the 120.000 before the war

23 living in Sarajevo, in the part that was under siege gradually and

24 precisely because of the calls by SDS leader, and the possibility during

25 cease-fires to cross to Grbavica or other parts outside the encirclement

Page 745

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Page 746

1 around Sarajevo, whoever wanted could leave the city. And after that

2 first winter, and also after the second winter, quite a number of citizens

3 of all ethnicities left the city. But no one prevented the Serbs or

4 others from leaving whenever that was possible, when there was no fighting

5 around town and when those surrounding the city allowed the evacuation of

6 children and other citizens from Sarajevo.

7 Q. Was special permission required for leaving town?

8 A. In some periods, yes, permission was required from the military

9 authorities because of the military obligation that existed. But I

10 personally, and the city Presidency was against it. But was not directly

11 involved in any way with that. We frequently requested that people be

12 allowed to leave the city, people who could help in raising humanitarian

13 aid for Sarajevo and the reconstruction of the infrastructure. And we

14 asked the military authorities to do this, and they were the ones who

15 sometimes gave us as members of the city Presidency permission and

16 sometimes they didn't. Sometimes this was enforced; sometimes it was

17 not. There was no constant prohibition on leaving town, but the situation

18 changed during the war, depending on the situation on the war front, and

19 the position taken by the authorities of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Who gave permission for people to leave the city?

22 A. They were known as the municipal staffs, or the municipal

23 commands, of the Secretariat for Defence in the municipalities of the

24 city that were part of the republic Ministry of Defence.

25 Q. Did you have any knowledge that certain Serbs, who held senior

Page 747

1 positions, who were doctors in hospitals, were arrested when they tried to

2 leave Sarajevo or were held in prisoners?

3 A. I know nothing about that.

4 Q. You told us today that there were periods when there was truce in

5 town. Could you tell us a little more about that, at what level was such

6 agreement reached, how long they lasted, and who violated them?

7 A. The cease-fires were negotiated at a higher level than the city

8 Presidency, therefore at the level of the army command or the Presidency

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And according to my knowledge, those cease-fires

10 were always violated on the part of the army of Republika Srpska.

11 Q. You said, according to your knowledge, where does that knowledge

12 come from?

13 A. We were in the city, and when somebody attacked the city, that

14 meant that somebody from the outside had broken the cease-fire. And that

15 means the army of Republika Srpska. I have no knowledge that ever during

16 a cease-fire was an attempt made to make a breakthrough through the

17 encirclement as a violation of the cease-fire. It was in our interest to

18 have a cease-fire because of water supplies, electricity, repairs in town,

19 and the position of the civilians in the town as opposed to the

20 continuation of the war.

21 Q. In Sarajevo, were Serbs also exposed to shelling and sniping as

22 were the Muslims?

23 A. Absolutely so, yes.

24 Q. And did you have occasion to see the weaponry of the BH army,

25 where they were positioned in Sarajevo?

Page 748

1 A. There were no weapons depots in Sarajevo throughout the duration

2 of the war. But I would occasionally see rifles or mortars carried by

3 soldiers of the BH army.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to where those weapons were kept?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. And where would you see them?

7 A. For instance, when an attempt to break into the city was made from

8 Trebevic, then units from the other side of the city came to the

9 assistance of the defenders in that part of the city, and then you would

10 see soldiers running along the streets carrying rifles and mortars and

11 some other weapons, which I don't know what they were exactly. But in any

12 event, they were weapons that soldiers could carry.

13 Q. Where were those soldiers that you saw accommodated?

14 A. The soldiers of the BH army did not have any barracks in the city

15 of Sarajevo except partially those evacuated by the JNA, so they were put

16 up in trenches and houses along those trenches on the outskirts of the

17 city where the defence lines were. That is where they would be in shifts

18 of five to ten days, and then they would go home to their own homes to

19 spend a few days with their families.

20 Q. Would you agree with me that those houses and facilities used by

21 soldiers of the BH army, those civilian houses, were, in fact, military

22 objects?

23 A. They were civilian houses when they were lived in by people who

24 had to flee from there because of the attacks from the outside.

25 Therefore, from the encirclement, so that those abandoned or half

Page 749

1 destroyed houses with basements were military targets when the soldiers

2 were in them. But there were no civilians in them any more.

3 Q. You told us today that at the level of the city, there was a

4 public health institute?

5 A. Yes, we used to call it the Institute for Hygiene.

6 Q. Quite. When was it established?

7 A. Oh, A long time ago. Maybe 50 years ago. I don't know.

8 Q. Was it functioning throughout the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told us that on the basis of data obtained from that Institute

11 for Hygiene, you mentioned the number of casualties in the city of

12 Sarajevo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who provided data to that Institute of Hygiene?

15 A. The Institute of Hygiene collected those data, according to its

16 own methodology, from people in the field, and on the basis of reports

17 received from hospitals, funeral parlours, and other institutions that had

18 any such information. And then to avoid duplication of names, the

19 institute would review them and officially submit reports to the

20 Presidency of the city and very often these were published in the

21 newspapers. The director of that institute will be able to tell you more

22 about the methodology as the institute -- he was the director of that

23 institute throughout the war and his name is Meztic [phoen].

24 Q. You told us that 90 percent of the casualties were civilians, if I

25 remember correctly, please correct me, and 10 percent were soldiers.

Page 750

1 A. I think I said 95 percent or roughly, according to my own

2 estimate, because we don't have the figures for the military as to how

3 many people were killed as soldiers, because what I was just saying about

4 those lines, those men, those soldiers who would be soldiers for ten days

5 and for five days at home in their houses then they would be civilians

6 because they were not armed, they were on leave after those efforts. So

7 if they were killed while they were at home or going to fetch water for

8 their families or to fetch bread, they were killed as civilians. If those

9 same people were killed on the defence lines wearing uniforms and carrying

10 weapons, then they were soldiers. So that our overall estimate of us as

11 the presidency and later was that roughly only 5 percent of the citizens

12 of Sarajevo were killed as soldiers and 95 percent as civilians.

13 Q. You just told me that in town there were 25.000 soldiers?

14 A. I said 10 to 15.000.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I apologise. Where were those soldiers who

16 participated in the fighting and who were wounded? Where were they

17 treated?

18 A. They were treated in one of these two hospitals or in military

19 clinics which were right next to the defence lines. Or if this happened

20 on Mount Igman, they were driven to Konjic, the hospital there, because

21 they couldn't be transported to the city itself.

22 Q. So from Sarajevo, the wounded would leave Sarajevo and be taken to

23 Konjic?

24 A. No, from the other side of the encirclement, from Mount Igman,

25 they couldn't pass through the tunnel, through the below the airport

Page 751

1 runway so they couldn't go through the encirclement around town and into

2 town, but were taken much further away to Konjic. As for those who were

3 wounded within the encirclement, they were treated in the hospitals within

4 the city.

5 Q. How did you gain possession of that information, as you were not

6 involved in military affairs? Did you discuss these matters at the level

7 of the presidency?

8 A. The hospitals, of course, and the doctors and the medical staff

9 were also within the terms of reference of the city Presidency. I didn't

10 concern myself only with water, but with all other matters as well. And

11 as for the treatment, it was common knowledge to all the citizens of

12 Sarajevo.

13 Q. You told us that there was no electricity, water, or gas in the

14 city. Could you explain to me whether a cut in the electricity causes

15 suspension of the water supply?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told us there were 11 transformer stations in the territory

18 under the control of the army of Republika Srpska. Can you explain if the

19 transformer stations were in the area controlled by Republika Srpska, how

20 could the electricity supply be cut and the water supply? Or were those

21 transformer stations damaged, and then mixed commissions went to establish

22 who and how would make the repairs?

23 A. Sometimes the transformer stations were damaged, more frequently

24 the long-distance transmission lines which supply the transformer stations

25 with power. But most of the electricity cuts were not provoked by those

Page 752

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Page 753

1 damages. But as far as I know from this commission and in the city,

2 electricity was cut intentionally for units of the army that were in town,

3 those ten or so thousand men to be left without electricity, but the city

4 as such was left without any power supply, and thereby, also without water

5 because water had to be pumped from the main source to the town, and this

6 was switched on or switched off at their will by the people who controlled

7 that; that is, civilians under the control of the army of Republika Srpska

8 manning those objects or by the military themselves.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please try to finish this

10 part of your cross-examination either at this moment or within, let's say,

11 one or two or three minutes so that we can discuss other matters for just

12 the time that is still available, please. Thank you.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, in a couple of minutes,

14 Your Honour.

15 Q. If there is no electricity, and if it is switched off in the

16 urban part of Sarajevo where the BH corps was accommodated, could there be

17 electricity in the part of Sarajevo that was under the control of

18 Republika Srpska?

19 A. The settlement in the broader area of Sarajevo had electricity

20 much more frequently. And in Grbavica, electricity would be cut also

21 because there was no supply in the centre of town. However, later,

22 Republika Srpska made lines to provide Grbavica with electricity while the

23 town itself was without electricity.

24 Q. What about the water reservoir at Mojmilo? It was under the

25 control of the BH army?

Page 754

1 A. Sometime in the autumn of 1992, through conflicts, the BH army

2 gained control of it. And until then, it was under the control of the JNA

3 or the army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. Was the water supply cut in that part?

5 A. I don't know. In those days, I don't know, because there was

6 water until the autumn of 1992 in old town with some interruptions. But

7 nothing like what it was later when the city was left totally without

8 water for longer periods of time.

9 Q. And what about gas? Was there gas while the conflict was ongoing?

10 A. The first winter of war 1992/1993, there was gas. And later, it

11 was available but with interruptions and with the pressure being lower.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I have no

13 more questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 Perhaps this is the moment where we -- you could tender in

16 evidence the second document. Although we said it would be at the end of

17 the cross-examination, perhaps we do it better now at the end of this

18 day, although cross-examination has not yet finished.

19 Have you got any idea how much time you still need,

20 Ms. Pilipovic?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Another half hour, Your Honour,

22 I think.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 You tender the document you gave to the witness this afternoon in

25 evidence? Is there any number related to it yet? No number.

Page 755

1 The Prosecution, any objections, apart from those?

2 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry. Are we referring to the second document?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the second document because the first document

4 has been dealt with.

5 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, I would reiterate the Prosecution objection

6 there. It is simply a matter that there has been no concrete evidence

7 adduced to indicate the production of these weapons and the distribution

8 of them to the army, and it's something to which the witness could not

9 agree. He had absolutely no knowledge of it. Again, he doesn't appear to

10 be in any way a suitable vehicle for simply a piece of paper to be

11 adduced which has no evidential value on the face of it as being just an

12 extract. It's not even in a greater context; it's just a little extract

13 from a piece of personal writing.

14 As a result, we would consider it so unreliable as to be

15 unacceptable and inadmissible, bearing in mind already Your Honour's

16 comment earlier as regards taking your own judicial view of probative

17 value. I would suggest that a document of this type in this way has

18 none whatsoever. And it would be improper to adduce through this

19 witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please respond to this

21 objection.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is the position of

23 the Defence that this is a relevant document for the Defence and the

24 Chamber, especially in view of the fact that during the testimony of this

25 witness, the witness is familiar with military matters. He knows that

Page 756

1 there were snipers, and he has knowledge about these things, so that we

2 cannot accept the objection of the Prosecution, that it is sufficient for

3 the witness simply to say "I don't know." This is, after all, a document,

4 a book, by Mr. Stjepan Siber that the witness is familiar with, he knows.

5 He lived in Sarajevo. He took part in the negotiations. And he was able

6 to make decisions at this level. The witness knows this. And the witness

7 confirmed that the Zrak factory was in the territory under the control of

8 the BH army in that part of Sarajevo that was controlled by the BH army.

9 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to have more time to consider

11 the question, so we'll give a decision on that by tomorrow, whether it

12 will be admitted in evidence or not. So it is not yet admitted at this

13 moment.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another -- first of all, the witness is

16 excused for this moment.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: For very practical reasons, I suggest to the parties

19 that we'll have not a formal five-minute Status Conference, but we will

20 have a five-minute closed session, because for a Status Conference, all

21 the videotapes have to be changed, et cetera. So that will be -- I

22 suggest that we have a closed session for five minutes and discuss exactly

23 what we would have discussed in the Status Conference, as I suggested

24 before.

25 So could we please -- I see the court manager is already taking

Page 757

1 all the necessary measures. Thank you.

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19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

21 December, 2001, at 2.15 p.m.

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