Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 764

1 Wednesday, 5 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Good afternoon, General Galic, everyone

9 in this courtroom. Before we continue with the cross-examination of the

10 witness Kupusovic, I'd like to give you the decision on the objection made

11 by the Prosecution yesterday on the exhibit, a few lines, two lines from a

12 book of Stjepan Siber, the lines indicating that sniper rifles would have

13 been distributed. But before giving the decision, I would just like to

14 make a few short remarks on the law of evidence to be practised in this

15 Court.

16 As we all know, this is a mixed Court to the extent that not

17 common-law traditions nor civil law traditions will apply. And I may

18 bring into your mind that one of the main features of the common-law

19 tradition as far as the law of evidence is concerned is that they mainly

20 deal with rules of presentation of evidence, while in the civil law

21 tradition, the emphasis is on the evaluation of the evidential material

22 that is available to the Court. And if we look at the rationale behind

23 the rules of evidence, and perhaps a bit more in the common-law tradition

24 as it is in the civil law tradition, we will see that one of the rationale

25 is that the mistrust of juries, where there might be some fear that a jury

Page 765

1 might not be able to properly evaluate some kind of evidence that is

2 presented to it. You will understand that this fear is a bit less in this

3 Court since there is no jury, and the Court thinks that, like in most

4 civil law traditions, as professional Judges, we will be able to evaluate

5 properly the evidence that is presented before us.

6 The second rationale is the fact finding which, of course, is of

7 major importance, and a third, and not the least important for this

8 Court - of course, I'm not going through all the rationales, but those

9 that seem to be of importance at this moment - is to control the scope and

10 the duration of the trials. That's a very pragmatic rationale, but it is

11 still important to this Court.

12 Bearing this in mind, we have considered what to do with

13 the two lines all of the book of Stjepan Siber. We then considered Rule

14 89, paragraph (c), which says the Chamber may admit any relevant evidence

15 which it deems to have probative value.

16 In view of the testimony of the witness Kupusovic, the Chamber

17 thinks that the two lines of the book contain no relevant evidence and

18 that these two lines have no probative value. In order to avoid any

19 misunderstanding, I clarify this position. If the Defence would in a

20 later stage want to establish that sniper rifles have been distributed, of

21 course they can do -- they can adduce whatever kind of evidence in order

22 to support that idea. But at this moment, in view of this testimony, this

23 Court thinks that it would be inadmissible evidence to accept these lines

24 of the book of Mr. Stjepan Siber. I told you that the control of the

25 scope and the duration of trials is of importance to this Court as well,

Page 766

1 and we want to avoid that every newspaper article, every book that a

2 witness has not read is tendered into evidence because we will end up with

3 a lot of paper, which might not serve the Court in coming to conclusions.

4 The Defence has argued that the witness could not just deny what

5 was in the book. This is not a reason to admit this book in evidence,

6 because whether it's true or not, what is in the book, or whether the

7 witness is telling the truth or not when he says, "I didn't know anything

8 about what is written in this book," this is not a way of establishing

9 what is the truth in that respect. So that would be no reason to admit

10 these lines of the book into evidence.

11 So that's the decision of this Chamber on this objection.

12 Then I'd like the witness to be brought into the Court.

13 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness in.

14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President, whilst the witness is being

15 brought in, might I raise a procedural matter indirectly arising from your

16 ruling, and it is this: Not having appeared in a trial here before, I'm

17 uncertain as to whether the Trial Chamber has a system whereby items shown

18 to a witness but not tendered at that stage can be marked for

19 identification so there can be no doubt at a later stage whether it is

20 tendered, that it is the same item that was shown to an earlier witness.

21 I would be grateful for your clarification on that, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Although it is not my first trial, having a certain

23 history in this Court, I'd rather discuss this with my colleagues first

24 before I give you a final answer to that question. Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 767

1 WITNESS: TARIK KUPUSOVIC [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kupusovic. May I remind you --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind I that you are still bound by the solemn

6 declaration you made the day before yesterday, and I will give an

7 opportunity now to Ms. Pilipovic to continue cross-examination.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

9 Q. Good afternoon, witness.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Yesterday, we were discussing the shortage of electricity, water,

12 and gas in Sarajevo while you were a member of the War Presidency. Tell

13 me, please, do you have any knowledge to the effect that the main

14 transformer station to the electricity was in Hadzici?

15 A. There were 11 transformer stations in Sarajevo, so in addition to

16 the one in Hadzici, there were another 10 transformer stations.

17 Q. Was that transformer station connected to the water source at

18 Ilidza, at Bacevo?

19 A. The transformer station in Blazuj was linked to that source of

20 water in Ilidza.

21 Q. The area where the transformer station in Blazuj was, who

22 controlled the area?

23 A. The army of Karadzic's Serbs.

24 Q. Do you know that that transformer station during operations by the

25 BH army and the army of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was damaged?

Page 768

1 A. I do not have any direct knowledge, only from the stories in town

2 that there may have been damages.

3 Q. In view of that, if it was damaged, does that mean that the Bacevo

4 water source was not operational?

5 A. It depends, of course, to what extent it was damaged because it is

6 a large transformer station and it applies not only Bacevo but that part

7 of the town of Sarajevo as well.

8 Q. While you were active in the War Presidency, you said that you

9 went to attend negotiations when there was a shortage of water and

10 electricity. Who was present and were any of the UN observers present?

11 A. As a member of the Presidency of the city, I participated several

12 times in those negotiations which were conducted by representatives of the

13 UN as independent observers.

14 Q. Did you ever go to visit the scene where these things were

15 actually happening?

16 A. No, members of the commission did not visit the spot. This was

17 not allowed by the negotiators on the opposite side, but they did go --

18 workers went there who could, together with the workers of the other side,

19 under UN supervision, repair whatever damage had occurred.

20 Q. While you were active, did you know what was happening and whether

21 there was a shortage of electricity and water in the part of the town that

22 was under the control of the army of the Bosnian Serbs?

23 A. It would happen that part of town at Grbavica and the rest of the

24 city to be left without electricity, but frequently also Vrace and

25 Grbavica had electricity whereas the main part of town under the control

Page 769

1 of the legal authorities in Sarajevo had no electricity.

2 Q. How would you deal with that situation then?

3 A. Again, there would be negotiations at the airport on the

4 conditions under which electricity would be allowed to reach the city.

5 Q. When you were performing those duties prior to becoming town

6 mayor, what other duties did you have, or rather all of you who were

7 active in that War Presidency? I am referring to questions of food,

8 clothing, and accommodation of both civilians and the military.

9 A. The Presidency of the city had responsibilities that were parallel

10 to those of the Municipal Assembly, which meant the highest legislative

11 body in the city of Sarajevo. Therefore, in addition to questions of

12 water and electricity, we were also involved with the other ten or so

13 public services that are normally operating in town, transportation,

14 garbage disposal, burials, marketplaces, and so on. We had a commission

15 for the distribution of humanitarian aid which regularly reported to us,

16 and it was directly linked to representatives of the UNHRC, who took care

17 of the delivery and distribution of humanitarian aid by district, whereas

18 our responsibilities were limited to the local level, that is distribution

19 among families.

20 Q. So you also concerned yourself with the food, accommodation and

21 clothing of the army?

22 A. No, as the city Presidency, we had nothing to do with the army.

23 Q. Who took care of that?

24 A. The Ministry of Defence and the army command.

25 Q. Will you tell me, please, in the course of your activities, did

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Page 771

1 you have any knowledge that within the territory of the city of Sarajevo

2 there were prisons?

3 A. In the territory of the city of Sarajevo before the war, during

4 the war, and even today, there is the so-called central penitentiary,

5 which is situated next to the main court. And as far as I know, it was

6 operating throughout the war.

7 Q. Do you know that there was a prison in the Viktor Bubanj

8 barracks?

9 A. I have no knowledge of that.

10 Q. Do you know that at Dobrinja in the coffee bar Sunce, which used

11 to be a coffee bar, was also a prison?

12 A. I know nothing about that.

13 Q. Did you have information that in the territory of Sarajevo, there

14 were 46 prisons and these were prisons for Serbs?

15 A. There were certainly no prisons for Serbs, but Pale television

16 frequently spoke about a prison at Zetra, that is the Olympic sports

17 hall, that I know for certain did not exist at all because my working

18 place was right close to Zetra, and Zetra was in fact empty. And later it

19 was a warehouse for UNHCR humanitarian aid.

20 Q. Did you go to that sports hall?

21 A. I went there a couple of times, accompanied by representatives of

22 the UNHCR when they wanted to show us what aid had arrived. And this is

23 two levels below the sports hall.

24 Q. When was this? Was this when you were a member of the war

25 Presidency or when you became town mayor?

Page 772

1 A. It was in the course of 1993, while I was a member of the town

2 presidency.

3 Q. You told us that you moved around on a daily basis, that you went

4 to work. When you moved around town, did you ever attend or see a victim

5 of a sniper?

6 A. No, I didn't, and I didn't move around town every day, as that was

7 impossible. Frequently, the shelling and sniping was of such intensity

8 that we didn't venture out of the basements. And quite frequently, 10 or

9 20 metres behind me or in front of me, I would see casualties of the

10 shooting, that is of sniping or of a shell. And I myself was twice in

11 great danger because a shell exploded on the balcony just above my head,

12 but the shrapnel entered the city. Lucky for me, but unfortunately for

13 the inhabitants because they were killed.

14 Q. Did you do anything about it? Did you inform anyone?

15 A. The first thing we did was to flee for shelter. And in this

16 particular case that I mentioned, it happened in June 1992. And the next

17 day or the day after, when things calmed down, then we tried to intervene

18 with the UN forces in Sarajevo to bring their influence to bear on the

19 other side to cease shelling of civilians because this is something they

20 also witnessed.

21 Q. You told us that they also witnessed this. How do you know that?

22 A. They were accommodated in Skenderija when the Marsal Tito barracks

23 were evacuated there. So in several locations in town, they had their

24 centres, and they often moved around town in APCs.

25 Q. Do you know what the procedure was when someone was wounded in the

Page 773

1 street? Who took care of them and where were those people driven or

2 transported?

3 A. Most frequently, whoever arrived first in a car would pick up the

4 casualty and drive him or her to the closest clinic or hospital. And

5 normally, it was the emergency service. But often one couldn't wait for

6 the emergency service to arrive. But anyone who would come by in a car or

7 in some other way would carry or transport the wounded person to the

8 nearest clinic.

9 Q. Do you know that on the highest buildings in the centre of

10 Sarajevo, such as the building of the executive council or government, the

11 Oslobodjenje building and other high rises, that there were snipers on

12 those buildings?

13 A. I do have knowledge that there were anti-sniper teams of UN forces

14 on those buildings which we frequently called on, and then those

15 anti-sniping teams were formed to respond to sniping from Vrace. And

16 indeed, for a time they were positioned on the highest buildings of the

17 government, Energoinvest, and the Unis skyscrapers. But as they, too,

18 were killed by snipers, the French UNPROFOR command later withdrew them.

19 So these were not sniper -- snipers belonging to the army or the police of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but rather anti-sniping teams belonging to the UN

21 forces, which were supposed to repel the snipers from the lines of the

22 siege of the city.

23 Q. How do you know that?

24 A. It was common knowledge in Sarajevo, actually. I didn't actually

25 see those soldiers because they were positioned behind barriers, shelters,

Page 774

1 on those top floors. But there were conversations that I did not

2 participate in directly because that was done by the town mayor at the

3 time, together with the commander of the UN forces in Sarajevo.

4 Q. Did you have meetings with the town mayor and did you brief him on

5 behalf of your War Presidency about events in Sarajevo?

6 A. Meetings of the city Presidency were held as a rule once a week,

7 sometimes more frequently. And at times when -- if on the day of the

8 meeting there was heavy shelling, then the following day, the meeting was

9 held. These meetings were chaired by the town mayor, Kresin Jakovic

10 [phoen], and we had a prepared agenda, and all topical matters that had

11 occurred a day or two before or were expected to occur in the next few

12 days were reviewed at those meetings.

13 Q. You say that AS, anti-snipers, UN observers were set up. When was

14 that? What year, what month?

15 A. As far as I can remember, it was in the autumn of 1993, and this

16 went on for several months.

17 Q. Do you happen to know that in a part of Sarajevo -- when I say a

18 part of Sarajevo, I mean the urban part of town. Do you know whether any

19 special sniper units existed under the control of the BH army?

20 A. I don't know of any such units.

21 Q. With respect to the civilian casualties, do you consider that

22 Sarajevo as a united town, not only the urban part but the whole of the

23 city of Sarajevo, that civilians fell as casualties in the whole of the

24 city?

25 A. Well, the civilians were casualties all over the city, but you

Page 775

1 cannot compare the civilian casualties in the surrounding parts of the

2 town under the control of Karadzic's Serbs, the army of Karadzic's Serbs,

3 and the civilians in the town of Sarajevo itself.

4 Q. When you say that, do you mean that the Grbavica neighbourhood,

5 that there were less casualties there than in the part of Sarajevo that

6 borders on the Grbavica district, or was it the same on both sides?

7 A. Well, I don't know how many civilians were killed at Grbavica, but

8 probably they were killed and wounded, but they were all -- also fell as

9 casualties because they had no water and electricity and so on. Their

10 life was constantly threatened due to the effects of war and the suffering

11 war brings with it.

12 Q. What about the citizens of Sarajevo living at Grbavica, did they

13 fall casualty from shelling and sniping during the fighting?

14 A. I said I don't know how many fell as casualties, but I say they

15 could have been killed because, quite simply, the demarcation line was the

16 Mijetska River, so in this part of town where I moved around in, it was

17 obvious with the skyrises and with all the buildings on that side, that

18 people had evacuated them. It was not possible to live there because the

19 soldiers belonging to the army of Republica Sprska had taken them over.

20 And on the other side in similar buildings, in similar highrises, the

21 situation was similar.

22 Q. Are you referring to Grbavica when you say highrises?

23 A. No, I'm thinking of the building like the BH assembly building,

24 the electricity board on the other side of the Mijetska River which was

25 controlled by the BH army.

Page 776

1 Q. What about the situation in Nedzarici, what was that like?

2 A. Nedzarici is, in fact, a village which became an urban part of

3 town as the town expanded. And on the 2nd of May, when the war began in

4 Sarajevo and the fighting, it became a stronghold, a bunker, for sniping

5 and shelling of the road leading from the Oslobodjenje building towards

6 Dobrinja and that settlement is on the right-hand side of that road.

7 The civilians who were of non-Serb ethnicity were taken away in an

8 unknown direction or some of them were transferred to town. And they said

9 that they had been forced to flee there by the extremist Serbs. Now, what

10 happened to the civilians living in Nedzarici, I really want say. I don't

11 know. I mean the Serb civilians, I'm referring to.

12 Q. Did you have occasion to visit that particular settlement, and if

13 so, when?

14 A. Several months after the war.

15 Q. And what was the impression you gained?

16 A. There was a lot of damaged and destroyed houses.

17 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that in that settlement, the

18 houses are mostly two-storey buildings?

19 A. Yes, one floor or two floors, family-type dwellings.

20 Q. Is the district surrounded by high buildings of Vojnicko Polje,

21 and Ali Pasino Polje?

22 A. On one side of the district, there are the high buildings of

23 Vojnicko Polje, yes. And they are in the same state they were in during

24 the war, that is to say, snipers and grenades hit the buildings so they

25 have these marks on them from the Nedzarici area, so those skyrises were

Page 777

1 left first, were evacuated first on the 2nd of May when the war and the

2 fighting started. On the other side, there is the JNA barracks in

3 Nedzarici which became barracks of the army of Republika Srpska, and on

4 the third side is the airport, the beginning of the runway, in fact.

5 On the eastern side lies the Oslobodjenje newspaper building, and

6 it was targeted from Nedzarici and has been largely destroyed and still

7 stands like that. It hasn't been restored or rebuilt yet. And that is

8 200 metres away from the Nedzarici settlement.

9 Q. Is Ali Pasino Polje and Nedzarici separated by a road? Does a

10 road separate the two?

11 A. On the other side we had the Vojnicko Polje settlement and the

12 health centre in Nedzarici. And in Vojnicko Polje, actually, which was

13 built when Vojnicko Polje was built and that was completely destroyed with

14 the first shootings from Nedzarici.

15 Q. Do you happen to know that during the war in that part of town

16 were the demarcation lines, the separation lines, and that these ran

17 for 50 metres?

18 A. Well, I said that the demarcation line was for all practical

19 purposes that road because from Ali Pasino Polje on the other side, the

20 situation was already like it was in town. So just the buildings that

21 were hidden by the Vojnicko Polje area. And you asked me about 50 metres,

22 well, I can't really say. I don't know about that.

23 Q. Do you know that at Ali Pasino Polje, military facilities had been

24 set up in the buildings?

25 A. The first buildings, or rather, the accompanying facilities were

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Page 779

1 evacuated straight away on the 2nd of May. Nobody could survive because

2 from Nedzarici, there was shooting. Soldiers shot from there, and others.

3 And only later on when the lines were established, the BH army was

4 certainly there. But I have no direct knowledge as to which locality they

5 were in in Nedzarici. There was quite a lot of frequent fighting along

6 that line with Nedzarici on the one side and the road and the hillocks and

7 slopes on the other side of Ali Posina Polje.

8 Q. Do you know who destroyed the buildings and facilities in

9 Nedzarici?

10 A. They were probably destroyed during the fighting. I don't know

11 who but probably during the fighting, the buildings were damaged and

12 destroyed.

13 Q. Do you happen to know how frequent the fighting was? Was there

14 fighting on a daily basis or sporadic fighting?

15 A. Well, from time to time there was fighting but, very often, in

16 Nedzarici there was fighting because the front lines were close by. And

17 it was an effort to link up Dobrinja with the town with a more secure

18 road, so that those first houses in Nedzarici which were facing the roads

19 towards Dobrinja were practically completely destroyed. And this could

20 be seen later on when the road became more secure and safer because the

21 army of Republika Srpska, which was in Nedzarici, was expelled from those

22 first houses. They had to withdraw from those first houses. So the army

23 didn't take them over. It was just in this sort of demarcation area or

24 line.

25 Q. Which part of Dobrinja was to have been linked up with the town,

Page 780

1 because you said 1, 2, 3, 4, 5?

2 A. Well, the whole of Dobrinja, the part under the control of

3 Republika Srpska, which is 5 or 10 percent, several buildings boarding on

4 the Lukavica barracks, which quite recently joined to Dobrinja. So this

5 is one settlement with all these different phases which got their name as

6 they were built. But otherwise, 40.000 Sarajevo inhabitants lived in the

7 Dobrinja district.

8 Q. So according to you, the fighting took place for Dobrinja 1, 2, 3

9 and 4 to be linked up with the urban part of town, as you call it. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes, for the communication between Dobrinja by road to Ali Pasino

12 Polje was enabled. So Dobrinja until that withdrawal of the army of

13 Republika Srpska from the first front-line houses in Nedzarici controlled

14 the road. And Dobrinja was in a double encirclement. There was the siege

15 around the whole of the city, and then Dobrinja was under siege -- a siege

16 of its own.

17 Q. Could you tell me, please, how many Serbs there were in Sarajevo

18 before the beginning of the war?

19 A. About 120.000.

20 Q. In view of the fact that you, yourself, were the mayor, how many

21 of them were there when you were town mayor?

22 A. Well, the assessment was that there were between 40.000 to 50.000

23 Serbs, and these were assessments by the Serb citizens council. No

24 census, no population census was taken during the war but I think the

25 assessments and evaluations were correct, at least judging by the lists of

Page 781

1 humanitarian AID organisations and the lists of citizens receiving

2 humanitarian aid.

3 Q. How many Serbs are there in Sarajevo today?

4 A. I don't know. Probably 70.000, 80.000.

5 Q. Where do you get your figures from, what sources?

6 A. Well, as to today's figure, it is a figure that appears in the

7 media from time to time. But nobody knows the exact figure until a census

8 is conducted.

9 Q. When you say the media, do you mean the media in Sarajevo or the

10 media further afield?

11 A. Well, the media that work in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo and

12 further afield.

13 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, was -- were the media

14 functioning?

15 A. Yes. The paper Oslobodjenje came out every day. The radio was

16 working all the time. Television, in part, during the day. And there

17 were other newspapers, too, that were published.

18 Q. Do you happen to know who the director of the Oslobodjenje

19 newspaper was and who published the paper, who printed it?

20 A. The publishing house Oslobodjenje published the paper, and their

21 director was, I think, Mr. Hasan Asengic [phoen] or some such name, who

22 had been the director before the war.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I have no

24 further questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask the prosecuting team whether there's

Page 782

1 any need of re-examination on those subjects that have been touched by the

2 Defence.

3 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, thank you very much. We will not avail

4 ourselves of re-examination. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then, Mr. Kupusovic, this is the end of

6 your testimony. I would like to thank you very much for coming to

7 The Hague, and you are excused.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, as I indicated yesterday, we would have a short

11 status conference now, but since the courtroom has to be prepared for

12 that, I would like to have a short break. Let's say ...

13 I understand that it takes 30 minutes to change the courtroom, so

14 perhaps it would be wise to see whether we can do it in a more efficient

15 way. Perhaps one question without violating any confidentiality. We had

16 spoken yesterday about the possible withdrawal of a motion. Could you,

17 without giving any further details, could the Prosecution please tell us

18 whether the motion I was just referring to will be withdrawn or not,

19 without going in any details because I know it's confidential.

20 MR. BLAXILL: Then I shall give an undetailed reply.

21 Mr. President. Yes, we will seek to withdraw.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This also means that there might be -- but I'm also

23 looking to the Defence that there might be no problem in perhaps

24 continuing at this moment with the next witness, and do the status

25 conference later on, unless this would cause you problems -- perhaps we

Page 783

1 can't finish it today.

2 Perhaps instead of having a formal status conference, perhaps

3 we'll turn into, as far as I understand, a private session so that we can

4 discuss the matters we intended to discuss during the status conference.

5 If all parties agree, if there's no objection, I'll then now change to

6 private session.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Are we in private session now or -- just for a

9 moment, please.

10 After consulting with colleagues, we decided that we would discuss

11 the matters in closed session.

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, one of the things I asked the parties to

22 inform the Chamber about any recent exchange of documents and the

23 disclosure. We have not received information on that as far as I'm aware

24 of. Just before discussing the issue, I would like to ask the Defence

25 whether they have any factual information on recent disclosure, and I

Page 815

1 would do the same to the Prosecution.

2 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

4 giving me the floor on this precise question about recent communications

5 of files or information. I've got nothing to signal in particular. I'm

6 talking about recent communications, but I wish once again to express

7 myself on matters of principle connected with all the problems which have

8 been mooted a moment ago.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give you an opportunity for that later on.

10 Mr. Ierace, is there any -- because I got the impression yesterday

11 that there had been some recent disclosure or exchange of documents.

12 Could you please inform the Chamber about it.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. To remind you of what

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin said yesterday, he informed the Trial Chamber that a few

15 hours before he rose to his feet, that he had received 97 folders, and I

16 think he later corrected that to 87 folders. The situation is that, in

17 fact, on the 1st of December, not yesterday, the Prosecution delivered to

18 the Defence in the form of Ms. Pilipovic 68 binders of documents. They

19 were delivered at two times on Saturday, the 1st of December, the first at

20 around 3.30 in the afternoon, and the second at around 5.00 the same

21 afternoon. And they were delivered personally to Ms. Pilipovic and an

22 assistant who was with her at the time.

23 Mr. President, those 68 binders represent the documentary entries

24 in the amended exhibit list, with these exceptions: That there are some

25 documents that we are still locating, approximately 190, and there are

Page 816

1 some documents in relation to which we still await Rule 70 clearance from

2 various bodies, and other procedures to be carried out. I can indicate in

3 more detail those numbers. In relation to documents for which we are

4 awaiting Rule 70 clearance, there are 591 -- I'm sorry, 619, and 591 have

5 recently been cleared by New York and have been provided to the Defence on

6 the weekend. There are some other smaller number of documents which

7 require Rule 70 clearance. And I don't know that we need to go through

8 those at this stage. Those are by far the largest number and the biggest

9 bundle.

10 That is the only recent disclosure, that is, in the last few days,

11 that I'm aware of, Mr. President. I can also indicate beyond that, if you

12 wish me to address matters more broadly, that the Prosecution is

13 continuing to check and recheck the documentation which it wishes to

14 disclose to the Defence and which it is obliged to disclose to the Defence

15 to ensure that both those categories are satisfied. Thank you,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, will you please respond to the

18 remarks of the Prosecution and to bring to the attention of the Chamber

19 whatever you want in this respect.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,

21 Mr. President. I will answer, also expound, if you will let me, the very

22 great concern of the Defence for this. As a concrete example, numbering

23 of the exhibits. I had to refer to the Registry, ask the Registry because

24 we didn't know how to number them because we didn't know if an exhibit was

25 going to be accepted or rejected by your Chamber. This is the reason why

Page 817

1 they will not always be a numbering on the exhibits which I will now

2 present. It's a very small detail, but accumulated with others it may

3 become important. What I wish to say here is we received from the

4 Prosecution about 10 metres in line of bundles for the Defence, and I

5 heard Mr. Ierace say that these exhibits were essential to these

6 proceedings, whether they contain this or that fact, which might be

7 reproached to General Galic.

8 I think I heard also that the exhibits were admitted during the

9 weekend, on the 1st of December. I was in The Hague. I didn't have

10 materially the time to peruse 50.000 pages, I think. And for this, I wish

11 to thank the Prosecution: We were given a search engine which is part of

12 the computer system. And I think your Tribunal probably will be

13 interested to know about it also. The first two exhibits which I wish to

14 tender are nothing else but the printer exhibits, as it has been

15 communicated by the Prosecution, with numbers D/3 and D/4 as the Registry

16 requested me to number them. Now, may I now transmit them to your

17 office?

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Are they in English?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excellent question,

20 Mr. President. I will answer immediately. Partly in extraterrestrial

21 language.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Well, this is a language I don't

23 know.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My third ear either,

25 Mr. President. But it is with pleasure I will show them and bring them to

Page 818

1 you.

2 I should think that if everybody has got the exhibits, we could

3 start by Exhibit D/3, Mr. President. May I continue?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document,

6 which you are now seeing is a just a photography -- a photograph of what

7 appears when the Prosecution search engine works. You just type key "S"

8 for the Defence to see what is recognised by the search engine on the

9 computer, and you will find under letter "S" things which are totally

10 unreal.

11 I would like to ask Mr. Ierace what is meant SY3W -- see, I don't

12 think he speaks extraterrestrial either. I will not go further. What I

13 mean to say, Mr. President, is that the means we have at hand are not

14 technically reliable because the action is we have got names which are

15 hidden here. It might seem a joke, but it's not a joke, because if we

16 pass upon that very quickly on the indictment, and we take the next

17 number, if you will, D/4.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you will allow me, Mr. Counsel, I'm taking it

19 quite seriously what you say, and I've got only one answer to that:

20 Never search for "S" as such, because you might get every combination that

21 has an "S" in it, whether it's useful or not. So I would say that this is

22 hardly a demonstration, whether it works or not. I am quite interested to

23 see whether this is of any use to you, but not by searching an "S." So I

24 would leave out discussion on a search performed just on the letter "S,"

25 because that's what -- not only what you get but what you can expect to

Page 819

1 get.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

3 your observation. Thank you so much. You are perfectly right, perfectly

4 right. But simply what I wish to say - and I can demonstrate it with a

5 witness, if need be - is that if the computer reads that sort of things,

6 there are names hidden behind these codes. I can follow your thought,

7 underlying thought.

8 But if I make another research, and if I, for instance, type

9 "Galic," which is the only thing I'm interested in, the name Galic, the

10 indicted, and Taljanic, in practice. I don't think I will be reproached

11 for any mistake -- from doing any mistake. I see that the research

12 doesn't yield any result. But I would like to call the attention of your

13 Chamber to the fact that I didn't present this exhibit, but it is one of

14 the exhibits tendered by the prosecution, which is called "The Battle of

15 Sarajevo." I will give the computer references later, in which these two

16 names may be found, Galic and Taljanic. But you have the proof that the

17 result of the search gives 0, yields 0. If you want to try it, if you

18 have the disks, pages 7 and 11 of document entitled "Battle of Sarajevo" -

19 maybe the Prosecution can produce it while I'm talking - well, you will

20 find these occurrences Galic and Taljanic.

21 What I want to demonstrate by the exercise which you yourself --

22 I'll ask you not to only type "S" to have results, but if I type "Galic,"

23 something else, we get no result at all. And I have the documents here.

24 I can tender it to you. There are some documents with these occurrences.

25 We can, therefore, not work on a such a basis. And I only

Page 820

1 received after Saturday, at the beginning of the week, these perhaps 68,

2 70, 80 bundles with a search engine which does not, will not function. It

3 is true --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would allow me to interrupt

5 as well. I don't think that in this courtroom we can spend a lot of time

6 on discussing whether a certain search engine does work or not. I'm quite

7 sure that the Prosecution, who has provided you with this search engine,

8 will be of help to see whether it can be useful for you or not. Perhaps

9 one of the Prosecution assistants could give some assistance to the

10 Defence in how to use it, because it could make a lot of remarks on how

11 Galic and Taljanic would work as a search statement. But this is not the

12 place to discuss these kind of things.

13 Would the Prosecution, if there's any problem in using this

14 instrument or giving some education in it, would it be somewhat available

15 to help the Defence?

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. In fact, that search engine was

17 first provided many months ago to the Defence on a CD, on a number of CDs

18 with documents which we disclosed. It has not been provided with

19 documents which we have placed on the exhibit list, except insofar as they

20 were previously closed.

21 At the outset when it was provided, the Defence was invited to

22 contact us, if they wanted some assistance in operating the search engine.

23 The first complaint that I heard in relation to it was last Thursday, when

24 I met up with Mr. Piletta-Zanin in my office. He said he had a problem.

25 I immediately offered him the assistance of the OTP to explain to him how

Page 821

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Page 822

1 the search engine worked, and he said he didn't want it. He then asked me

2 if he could have a hard copy of the exhibit list. I told him he could

3 have it the next day. And he said that he -- it didn't suit him to have

4 the hard copy the next day, so I said, "Well, let us know when you want

5 and where you want it, and we'll give it to you." And that's what we did

6 on Saturday. The Office of the Prosecutor remains available to assist my

7 friends to search those documents.

8 There is one further point I would make: Disclosure, that is,

9 reciprocal disclosure, comes under Rule 66(B). That only requires the

10 Office of the Prosecutor to make available the books, documents, and so on

11 for inspection. The Office of the Prosecutor chose to go beyond that and

12 to give copies of the documents to the Defence. They told us what

13 categories they wanted. We provided them. We provided them on CD with a

14 search engine.

15 So in my respectful submission, this complaint has to be seen in

16 context. We have disclosed since the 9th of January 6.236, approximately,

17 documents. It seems sensible to us, since we were providing what they

18 asked for, that if we had a search engine, we should give them that as

19 well with an offer of assistance, and that's what we have done.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I think we have to establish

21 that for one reason or another, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is at this moment not

22 able to achieve the results he would like to have with the search engine,

23 but on the other hand also that all possibilities to use this engine

24 perhaps better have not been exhausted yet. So I would like to leave the

25 issue of the search engine at this moment. We've taken notice of the

Page 823

1 complaints of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and I would invite him to bring other

2 issues to the attention of the Trial Chamber.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course,

4 Mr. President. Yes, of course. Thank you for your consideration. Yes, I

5 worked with very good teams computer-wise, and I have to say -- with all

6 respect, I have -- all due respect, you have several scanning systems, and

7 this is what happens when a page is presented, willfully or not, the other

8 way around, whatever technician, in particular those who tried to help me,

9 the scan which is used does not manage to read the words. It is not a

10 matter of competence of the members of the Prosecution or Defence. It's a

11 matter of procedure. If a page is put upside down, the scan will not

12 recognise the words. And by this rather clever ways, sometimes that's the

13 reality, all you need to do is to put a page upside down and the result

14 would be precisely what you've got in D/3, this accumulation of names

15 which don't mean anything. And if there are so many names, it's because

16 some pages were put in the machine upside down.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Just to interrupt you again, I think that I consider

18 the issue that you are bringing to the attention of the Chamber now also

19 deals with the search engine, possibility of the search engines, and I

20 think that I had decided that this discussion would, for the moment, be

21 over. And I have taken note of this. This Chamber has taken note that

22 you don't think at this moment that you can have any use of it, and it

23 doesn't work for you.

24 So if there's any other issue on the exchange, disclosure of

25 documents, you would like to bring to the attention of the Chamber, please

Page 824

1 go ahead.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Just one. I

3 will not come back to this question of the search engine, which is

4 perfectly clear. I think I heard the Chamber say a moment ago that we

5 should tender only pertinent documents, and the search engine produced

6 this sort of document, Mr. President, which I have to bring to the

7 attention of your Chamber because I think it is not with this that you can

8 prove or disprove anything. It's a document under the 06051 produced by

9 the search engine, and it's an article with some press caricatures, and

10 which has nothing to do with this procedure. What I mean to say here is

11 we have an enormous quantity, amount of these kind of documents. The

12 defence is not able to sort them out with a competent or not search

13 engine. It is not for us actually to sort these things out. This is

14 number 25. But those are produced by the Prosecution. And to finish

15 this, I wish to thank the Chamber for listening to me on this matter.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other issue about the disclosure or

17 exchange of documents that hasn't been discussed at this moment?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps a last point,

19 Mr. President, to be examined, very last point. We'll use it -- we'll

20 give an example for one exhibit which has been tendered by the Prosecution

21 and which without a search engine gives two different numbers, serial

22 numbers. I don't know which to take first. I've got number 00268208,

23 00361575. May I repeat these numbers?

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just look at the screen whether the

25 numbers are written down properly. I think the first number is not

Page 825

1 correctly ...

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will say again, the two

3 numbers of these exhibits. The first I quoted was 00268208, and the other

4 document, the other number was 00361575. I made copies if need be, which

5 I could tender. That one can see the problem even from where you are

6 sitting, Defence can strictly not take anything useful out of a document

7 which is mostly illegible, and this is one of the reasons why the search

8 engine doesn't work. We have there a document which gives an example, a

9 clear example, that it is not possible to make any use of it. I will

10 deposit it as Exhibit D/6, so it can be seen but technical and human

11 difficulties which is -- the Defence is confronted.

12 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the D/6 document is concerned,

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did you ask the Prosecution for a better copy, a copy

14 you could read?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, but I have

16 to specify that this has to do with about 60 folders, and this is only one

17 example of an incredible number of documents which all appear in this

18 state. I really do not have the means of reading them. I'm very sorry,

19 we can't work that way. It's not workable.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Would the

21 Prosecution respond to that, briefly if possible.

22 MR. IERACE: Briefly, Mr. President. In relation to the latter of

23 the two documents, that is the medical report, firstly, I note that

24 although I cannot read B/C/S, I can see most of the letters which are on

25 that document. Secondly, I make this observation, that the Defence

Page 826

1 informed the Prosecution, I think now some three months ago, that they

2 were having difficulty in reading some of the photocopies of the medical

3 reports, and we agreed with him that some parts of the medical reports

4 were illegible, and we would take steps to obtain better copies.

5 With that in mind, we undertook a special mission to Sarajevo to

6 get the best possible copies of the medical reports we could, and they

7 were brought back to The Hague in October, and within days of receiving

8 them here, we disclosed them to the Defence.

9 It may be that this is one of those documents. I don't say that

10 we now have a set of medical records where every single one of them is 100

11 percent legible, but I do say we have the most legible set possible. And

12 nothing more can be done about that. I come now to the first document

13 which appears to be an article from the Chicago Tribune with a political

14 cartoon beneath it. I note that my friend said this was off the exhibit

15 list. He's given us two numbers. I would be grateful if he could give us

16 the tracking number for this exhibit so that I can make some inquiries and

17 enlighten the Trial Chamber as to why it is on the exhibit list, if indeed

18 it was.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just comment shortly on it. This Chamber is

20 very well aware of the problems the Defence has in let me say digesting

21 the huge number of documents they received. This Chamber also is of the

22 view that we should try to solve the problems related to it and not to

23 exploit the problems as such. So whenever there's a problem, I would call

24 upon the parties first to communicate to each other to see whether they

25 can solve the problem. And at the same time, I can tell you that until a

Page 827

1 decision has been taken on the leave for appeal that has been filed by the

2 Prosecution against the decision of the 16th of November of the Pre-Trial

3 Judge concerning the admissibility of documents, this Trial Chamber is --

4 has the intention not to allow any surprise disclosure of documents, the

5 use of documents by surprise. So I would ask the Prosecution that if at

6 this moment they can foresee what documents should be studied by priority,

7 because they are produced on a short notice, that at least they will

8 inform the Defence about it so that they can prepare as good as they can.

9 If, on the other hand, the Defence is confronted with a document of which

10 they think they have not been able to prepare properly, the Defence can

11 just tell the Trial Chamber and we'll look into the matter and see what

12 solution, if there is one, can be found. This is a call -- I'm calling

13 upon both parties to see whether they can work as efficiently as possible.

14 I would finally give both parties one possibility to react on what

15 I have just said. If you agree, it's fine. If you disagree, please tell

16 us briefly why.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,

19 thank you for what you just said. And Defence has already had an

20 opportunity to say what it has repeated and will repeat again to your

21 Chamber in its other composition. Let me just say that the essential will

22 of the Defence was to find the truth, and in particular, the will of the

23 Defence is to help justice, to be the facilitator of justice, and nothing

24 else. But in this connection, as a barrister, I think I can recognise

25 perhaps as a computer expert, to recognize the problems. We will do all

Page 828

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Page 829

1 we can to try and limit these problems but in this phase we can't do

2 anything else but to respectfully invite the Prosecution to eliminate from

3 its case file documents such as those which we have presented today, and

4 which apparently will not be readable and will not be reproduced before we

5 don't know how much time. So let us eliminate these documents. I said

6 yesterday that only 37 documents contained the name of General Galic, only

7 37 documents out of perhaps 40.000 pages or more, perhaps. Let us make an

8 effort in the name of justice, in the name of the clarity of the debate, I

9 invite my colleagues, and I thank you so much.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything the Prosecution want to say about

11 this, just also as briefly as possible.

12 MR. IERACE: I will keep it very brief, Mr. President. In

13 relation to reciprocal disclosure, I regret that the Defence did not tell

14 us six months ago that all they wanted were documents that mentioned the

15 name Galic.

16 In relation to making exhibits available to the Defence in

17 advance, there is only one witness we who will be calling in the next four

18 days through whom exhibits will be tendered, and that is the Witness

19 Mr. Nakas. Copies of those exhibits, although they were disclosed many,

20 many months ago, will be deposited in the Defence locker this afternoon.

21 Mr. President, the only other issue I would raise in relation to

22 disclosure relates to reciprocal disclosure of documents by the Defence.

23 Mrs. Pilipovic has told me, I think now some six weeks ago, that the

24 Defence has not yet completed its obligation to disclose documents to the

25 Prosecution, and I would be grateful if she could give some indication as

Page 830

1 to when that process is likely to be completed. I have some understanding

2 of the difficulties which are involved with disclosure. This is by far

3 the most extensive reciprocal trial that the Tribunal has dealt with, and

4 it has posed enormous problems. But nevertheless I would be grateful if

5 she could provide a date or a month by which she will have given us all of

6 the documents of which she is presently aware, which come under reciprocal

7 disclosure. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm glad to hear that both parties are willing to

9 assist each other and fully comprehend the problems the parties are facing

10 at this moment. I think we discussed at this moment the issue of

11 disclosure of documents in general. Whenever there comes a point when

12 someone is surprised by any document, please let the Chamber know

13 immediately.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, let me just say I found there to be a

15 very cooperative atmosphere with the Defence on this issue.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That is good to hear, Mr. Ierace. Then I would like

17 to proceed. Let me just have a look at the clock. I think it is still

18 useful to start the examination of your witness, Mr. Ierace. Do you

19 agree?

20 MR. IERACE: That would be convenient to the Prosecution,

21 Mr. President. Mr. Blaxill will take the next witness. Will you allow us

22 to make some changes at the bar table?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the documents that have just been

24 provided by the Defence should be admitted. Whether they have any

25 value for -- any probative value is a different matter, but I think they

Page 831

1 have played a role in our discussion. Therefore, they should be

2 registered properly. So with the consent of both parties as I hope, they

3 will be registered, get a number, and -- well, admitted.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit numbers will be D/3, D/4, D/5, and

5 D/6.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. With the

8 Court's indulgence, my learned colleague Mark mentioned the introduction

9 of documents through a witness. For us to be as effective as possible and

10 for the Defence to state its views as to those documents, I should like to

11 ask my learned colleagues if they could at least tell us two days in

12 advance so that the Defence knows which documents they are. My colleagues

13 tell me that they have been disclosed. I can't say at this point in time,

14 so I would like to ask them to supply us with those documents at least two

15 days before the witness is due to come on. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see on these newest lists, exhibits

17 are mentioned. So if these lists are communicated to the Defence, I think

18 you may be aware, but it's your intention to communicate these lists to

19 the Defence so that you know up until -- well, let's say the 14th witness,

20 what exhibits the Prosecution intends to tender, and they have offered to

21 put in your mail box this afternoon those documents that will be tendered

22 in evidence for the coming days.

23 Okay, then. I think we can proceed with the examination of the

24 next witness, which is not a witness under pseudonym. Mr. Ierace, your

25 next witness will be?

Page 832

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. Kovac.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac. Could the usher please bring in the

3 witness.

4 It is suggested by the Registry that we have the break now, and

5 then perhaps continue. I'm asking the interpreters booth whether if we

6 continue at 20 minutes to 6.00, whether we could continue until 7.00.

7 Would this be possible?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Then we better have a break now

10 for 20 minutes, and then continue until 7.00. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's already for the third time today I asked

14 the Prosecution who they will call as their next witness.

15 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It will be Mr. Mustafa Kovac who we will call

16 to testify, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, will you please bring in the witness.

18 I just ask the Prosecution --

19 [The witness entered court]

20 WITNESS: MUSTAFA KOVAC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Kovac, can you hear me in a

23 language which you understand?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, Rule 90(A) requires you to make a solemn

Page 833

1 declaration, of which the text will be provided to you. And I invite you

2 to do so.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kovac.

6 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.

7 MR. BLAXILL: I am much obliged to you, Mr. President. Thank

8 you.

9 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac. Would you please give the Court your

11 full name and your date of birth, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think there is a problem, as far as the audio is

13 concerned.

14 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you hear me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Kovac, would you be so kind as to give your full name and your

17 date of birth to the Chamber.

18 A. My name is Mustafa Kovac. I was born on the 12th of March, 1958

19 in Sarajevo.

20 Q. And can you tell me, sir, are you a married man?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you have any children?

23 A. I have three children.

24 Q. And were all three of your children alive in 1992? They had all

25 been born by then, had they?

Page 834

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you just tell the Chamber briefly about your educational

3 background. What education did you follow?

4 A. I went to primary school in Sarajevo. It was the Blagoje Parovic

5 primary school. And then I graduated from the 3rd gymnasium in Sarajevo

6 and then went on to the Faculty of Political Sciences. It was the Veljko

7 Vlahovic faculty in Sarajevo. And at present, I am doing post-graduate

8 studies. My thesis is in the field of Civil Defence.

9 Q. After completing your education, did you do any compulsory

10 military service?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When did you do that?

13 A. That was in 1983.

14 Q. Can you tell us, please, in what military disciplines or

15 activities were you trained?

16 A. I was trained as a military policeman.

17 Q. Did you receive any other kind of training in the use of

18 particular weapons or any kind of particular skills?

19 A. Only within the frameworks of general military training.

20 Q. What would those frameworks have included?

21 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, there was specialised

22 training linked to training for military policemen.

23 Q. And can you tell us, please, did that include any form of weapon

24 training?

25 A. Yes, of course. We were taught marksmanship, and as soldiers, we

Page 835

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Page 836

1 did marksmanship.

2 Q. Were you issued any equipment for that specific purpose?

3 Personally, that is.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What were you actually issued with so you could do that basic

6 training?

7 A. As far as basic training was concerned, we were issued weapons,

8 and I got a sniper rifle.

9 Q. When you refer to a sniper rifle, what sort of thing is that,

10 please? Can you tell us?

11 A. It is a type of weapon that the military police used in the

12 execution of its duties.

13 Q. Is there any difference between a sniper rifle -- I do beg your

14 pardon. Between a sniper rifle and any other kind of ordinary infantry

15 small arms?

16 A. Well, the only difference -- yes, there was a difference. The

17 difference was that it used special ammunition and had an optic sight.

18 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose or the benefit of the optic sight

19 was to the use of such a weapon?

20 A. With that kind of weapon, you could target at a distance. You

21 could target specific objects which you had to see close to if you were to

22 hit your target correctly.

23 Q. What effect did that have on the effective range, therefore, of

24 the weapon?

25 A. The person doing the shooting using this type of weapon could

Page 837

1 select his target.

2 Q. Could you give us any idea of the kind of distance, perhaps in

3 metres, where that would be effective?

4 A. It could be effective up to 1.000 metres, as the crow flies.

5 Q. And you also referred to having special ammunition. Can you say

6 what was special about that ammunition?

7 A. It was special because the actual bullet contained lead. And it

8 also had some other properties. But the ammunition was lead ammunition

9 which inflicts greater injuries on the target, which means that it is

10 high-precision targeting, and the wound inflicted would be greater.

11 Q. Having said that, can you tell us -- I'm not asking you to be any

12 kind of ballistics expert here, Mr. Kovac, but can you tell us what they

13 told you what was the difference therefore in how the lead bullets that

14 you used in the sniper weapon differed from the bullets in a normal

15 infantry weapon?

16 A. The success rate in targeting was much higher.

17 Q. Can you tell me, do you recall what brand or make that that sniper

18 weapon was that you were given?

19 A. The sniper rifle was manufactured by the weapons factory of

20 Kragujevac. It was a rifle of a 7.9 millimetre calibre. It was carbine,

21 in fact, of the carbine type. So in addition to the fact that it was used

22 as a carbine, it could also be used as a sniper rifle because the optic

23 sight was placed on the carbine, turning it into a sniper rifle.

24 Q. One other thing I would ask you about that: You refer to the

25 optic sight. Can you tell us what make and type of thing that optic sight

Page 838

1 was.

2 A. They were optic sights, domestically produced, probably. They

3 were military domestic sights. I can't tell you the manufacturer's name.

4 Q. Can you recall the level of magnification that that sight was

5 designated for?

6 A. Yes. On the optic sight, when you looked through the optic sight

7 itself, there was certain markings for distance so that there were certain

8 distances on the optic sight, and you could determine with great precision

9 how far you wanted to target objects, at what distance your targets were.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Kovac, when did you in fact complete your compulsory

11 military service?

12 A. I completed my compulsory military service, that is to say, I went

13 to the former Yugoslav people's army at the beginning of 1983, on the 7th

14 of January, in fact. And I left the former Yugoslav people's army on the

15 28th or 29th, one of those two days, of November, 1983.

16 Q. And what profession did you follow after you had left military

17 service?

18 A. After doing my military service, I got a job in the Novi Grad

19 municipality, and I dealt with civil defence matters.

20 Q. And how long did you remain in the civil defence area of your

21 career?

22 A. In fact, from 1984, the beginning of 1984, right through to the

23 present, I am in civil defence. I never interrupted my work -- years of

24 service.

25 Q. Would you now then please tell the Chamber which positions you

Page 839

1 have held and where in your career in civil defence to date.

2 A. At first, I was a coordinator for civil defence and monitoring

3 training in civil defence among the population, that is, protection of the

4 population in the municipality of Novi Grad. Then I was coordinator for

5 protection and relief measures. And at the beginning of the war, that is

6 at the beginning of 1992, I was appointed head of the civil defence staff

7 for Novi Grad municipality.

8 In 1994, the beginning of that year, I was appointed commander of

9 the district staff of civil defence for Sarajevo. In 1995, I was

10 appointed head of civil defence staff for the city of Sarajevo. In 1996,

11 I was appointed head of the civil defence staff for the canton of

12 Sarajevo, and that is the position I hold now.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kovac, if I can take you back to just before --

14 around the beginning of 1992, what sort of events had the Civil Protection

15 force or civil defence been organised to deal with? What sort of ...

16 A. At the beginning of 1992, civil defence dealt with its activities

17 which involved removal, evacuation, and care for casualties and people

18 exposed to risk, without yet having any idea of what was to come. We, in

19 the civil defence, kept the population informed of possible attacks on the

20 city, or rather, to be more specific, the area of the municipality of Novi

21 Grad. And we sought to organise life in such a way so that the civil

22 population would overcome the situation as easily as possible.

23 Q. And that is a situation you faced, then, at the beginning of

24 1992. I should have perhaps asked this beforehand. What was the Civil

25 Protection or civil defence set up for prior to that, in the former

Page 840

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. Civil defence in the former Yugoslavia was formed with a view to

3 protecting and rescuing the population in jeopardy, or needing care. And

4 it came under the defence secretariat. When talking about the components

5 of defence in the former Yugoslavia, civil defence was a defence

6 component, if I can put it in that way, intended to protect the civilian

7 population, and that was its exclusive responsibility.

8 Q. From that description, what was the relationship or the intended

9 relationship at that time between the civil defence and, let us say, the

10 army, and the police, those three different bodies?

11 A. According to the laws formerly in force and prescribed at the

12 level of the former Yugoslavia, the defence consisted of the armed forces,

13 the civil defence, the system of information and reporting, and special

14 purpose production. The armed component consisted of the army and the

15 police, or rather, the present-day police. So civil defence was the

16 unarmed component of defence, and its task was to defend the country, or

17 rather to defend the population with the means available to it, to the

18 civil defence, and that means with shovels, pick axes, fire extinguishing

19 equipment, stretchers, medical teams, through units of civil defence that

20 existed at the time.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. So from whom in civil defence did you take any

22 instructions to take action in Sarajevo when the conflict began in 1992?

23 A. In our concrete case, we received instructions from the city staff

24 of civil defence for Sarajevo, but the instructions certainly came from

25 the republican level, civil defence staff, which operated at the level of

Page 841

1 the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And this republic staff was within

2 the framework of the Ministry of Defence.

3 Q. And your Civilian Protection staff, how were they recruited and

4 from what sectors of the population did they tend to come?

5 A. If we're talking about recruitment to the staff of civil defence

6 or protection at the beginning of 1992, then I can say that a large number

7 of people was retained in the staff. A certain number of people left

8 Sarajevo. And we filled in their places primarily with people who were by

9 profession and by education capable of performing those tasks.

10 Q. Now, you've made reference to the start of the war in Sarajevo.

11 Can you, very briefly, just describe the conditions that existed after May

12 of 1992 and for the rest of that year, in terms of what actually

13 happened, just very briefly.

14 A. If we were to view it from the point of view of the civil defence,

15 in that period, the civil defence had a lot to do. We had a large number

16 of wounded and killed civilians. Also, we had a large number of refugees

17 that had moved from certain parts of Sarajevo towards either the centre of

18 town, that is, to certain municipalities, or through certain different

19 channels left the country. And I can say that in the territory of Novi

20 Grad municipality, in that time period, there was about 40.000 refugees

21 from parts of Eastern Bosnia, parts of the municipalities of Ilidza, Novo

22 Sarajevo, parts of the Vogosca and other areas swept by war.

23 Q. Just a moment, please. You've mentioned wounded and killed

24 civilians. Can you describe how these people were being wounded and

25 killed?

Page 842

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Page 843

1 A. Well, there were frequent shellings. The shellings usually were

2 sudden or, on the other hand, continuous. When talking about the sudden

3 shellings, shells would fall unexpectedly in a crowd where people had

4 gathered for supplies, whether it be to receive humanitarian aid or to

5 collect water, or places where various products were being sold or on

6 sale, that is, at marketplaces. In addition, there were attacks on

7 apartment buildings, and these buildings provided no safety for the

8 citizens.

9 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you say roughly the areas around the city that

10 received shells on any given occasion? Were there any particular areas

11 that were targeted or was it more general?

12 A. It is hard to say that there were targeted areas. More or less

13 every neighbourhood was shelled, some more, some less. But virtually

14 every neighbourhood was shelled.

15 Q. And how regular was this shelling? Let's say through 1992 and

16 even through 1993, how often did it occur?

17 A. In the first year, that is, if we're talking about 1992, I can say

18 that the shelling was very frequent. The pauses between the shellings

19 were brief, and the shelling occurred either early in the morning, at

20 dawn, and then it went on all day or it would start early in the evening

21 and go on all night.

22 Q. Was there any other kind of shooting that affected your life in

23 Sarajevo while that war was on, other than the shelling?

24 A. Well, yes. In the lulls when people would come out of their

25 homes, along the routes that people took to town and back, various kinds

Page 844

1 of weapons were used to target them. At first, we didn't know what types

2 of weapons and artillery were being used. But after a certain period of

3 time, people learned that these were sniper bullets, that is, sniper

4 shots, also machine-gun fire, so-called sowers of death, and then light

5 anti-aircraft guns were also used, the so-called Pat, P-A-T, which at the

6 top of the round are armoured, so that they could go through walls and

7 destroy buildings and penetrate inside.

8 Q. Mr. Kovac, faced with that situation, what were the first actual

9 practical things that the civil defence were deployed to do? Did you have

10 to have anything to do with the utilities or what other things did you do

11 practically at the beginning of the war in these circumstances?

12 A. Yes. Immediately after the conflict broke out, electricity was

13 cut. Then water supplies were also interrupted, and there was major

14 damage inflicted on the infrastructure. And what I mean is the PTT

15 network, the water supply network, the sewerage, and in any event, it was

16 our duty to organise ourselves and to try to do our best to ensure

17 supplies for the population.

18 Q. What action did your civil defence people take in respect of water

19 supply? What was your involvement in that?

20 A. When we're talking about that problem, we organised -- or rather,

21 through the town civil defence staff, we organised delivery of water with

22 the help -- with the assistance of tank trucks, to all the

23 municipalities. And all the local communities, through the civil defence,

24 had a timetable for water delivery, and we took part in those deliveries

25 so that water was transported every two or three days to a certain

Page 845

1 location, where people would be waiting in line. And in that way, they

2 were supplied with water.

3 Q. Where did the water come from in the first place that filled these

4 trucks?

5 A. Those were -- in those days, there were very few sources of water.

6 There was water coming from the area of the brewery, which is in the old

7 part of the city. And the Sarajevo brewery used to use that water to

8 produce beer, and it still does, in fact.

9 Q. During the course of those deliveries, did these trucks ever

10 encounter difficulties because of shelling and sniping?

11 A. In our plans of supplies, we sought to find locations that were

12 better protected and that were not so visible. But nevertheless, it did

13 happen that in some way unknown to me, those locations were shelled

14 nevertheless.

15 Q. Did these arrangements for the water, did they carry on through

16 1993, throughout that year?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what about the winter of 1993 to 1994, what were the

19 conditions like for supplying water to the city in terms of the work your

20 Civil Protection did? What were the conditions like for supplying the

21 civilians with water?

22 A. Talking about winter, in addition to the water, which was an acute

23 problem, another major problem was heating. I still remember very well

24 the winter of 1992/1993. People sought various ways to come by firewood.

25 They would even destroy their own furniture in their dwellings in order to

Page 846

1 heat the areas in which children lived.

2 Q. Thank you. But if I may return to that question, Mr. Kovac,

3 what about the supply of the water to the people during that winter of

4 1993, 1994?

5 A. So in addition to these tank trucks or trucks with reservoirs,

6 pumps were also built in certain areas, and that was one way in which we

7 improved the water supply. That is, in the parts of the municipalities

8 where there was water in the ground and we received some water pumps from

9 some humanitarian organisations, and we drilled for water and installed

10 those pumps there and thus improved the situation.

11 Q. And when you say "we," do you mean physically the staff of your

12 own civil defence people? They were actually doing the work? Is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what about the similar situation for the electricity service

16 to the city? Did your civil defence workers have an active physical role

17 in anything to do with supply or repair for that particular resource, for

18 electricity?

19 A. Yes. With the help of professional teams coming from the

20 electricity board of Sarajevo.

21 Q. What sort of work, physical work, did that involve your staff

22 doing in respect of the electricity supply?

23 A. Well, they worked to dig, to protect the cables leading to

24 transformer stations. And during the wartime, we resorted to cables along

25 the ground so that canals had to be dug for those electricity lines

Page 847

1 because all the transmission lines on pillars were damaged, and even if

2 they were repaired, they would be destroyed again, so that we decided to

3 protect those cables by digging them into the ground.

4 Q. Did your people carry out this type of work throughout the

5 conflict, that is, say, certainly from May 1992 up to the end of 1993,

6 early 1994?

7 A. Mostly. With the assistance, I must say again, of the

8 professionals from the electricity board.

9 Q. Did you have any involvement with the other utility of town, the

10 gas system? Did you ever have work to do on that?

11 A. Yes. And there was some natural gas, but to be quite frank, we

12 couldn't rely on it on a more durable basis for fuel. Nevertheless, in

13 the 1992/1993 period, a number of neighbourhoods, with the assistance of

14 the civil defence, was provided with gas.

15 Q. Was the shelling and sniping going on whilst your people performed

16 work on these utilities?

17 A. Yes. Throughout that time, there were shelling and other types of

18 fire.

19 Q. And did the Civil Protection service have anything to do with the

20 issue of food for the city during that same period, during the conflict or

21 the part of it from May 1992 up to the end of 1993, early 1994?

22 A. Well, yes, certainly. It was through the civil defence that food

23 was distributed among all local communities and to all neighbourhoods.

24 Q. And how did you go about that? Did that require going to specific

25 distribution points or taking food stuffs to individuals?

Page 848

1 A. There were places in the local communities where the citizens that

2 were mobile would come to those places. For citizens who were unable to

3 move, the old, the weak, or sick, we organised delivery to their

4 place of residence, to their place of homes.

5 Q. And what was the -- what was the general way -- you say the

6 citizens that were mobile would come to those places. Were these regular

7 distribution places or did you alter those collection places from time to

8 time?

9 A. Precisely for security reasons, we changed those distribution

10 points precisely because of the possibility of them being shelled.

11 Q. And was this distribution by your people of locally-produced food

12 stuff, i.e., food that was within Sarajevo, or was that involved in the

13 distribution of outside humanitarian aid?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I can't have asked you that cleverly to you, Mr. Kovac. Was that

16 locally grown or locally produced food that you delivered?

17 A. Mostly, as there was insufficient food in 1992 and 1993 and later

18 as well, then certainly it was food that arrived in Sarajevo through

19 humanitarian organisations.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Now, did the civil defence have any other

21 areas in which they tried to -- physically, to improve the survival

22 lifestyle of the civilians? Did they, for instance, make any products

23 that could be used? Were they involved in any things like clothing or

24 anything else?

25 A. Certainly. At the level of the city and also at the level of each

Page 849

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Page 850

1 of the municipalities, we organised workshops, and all able-bodied people

2 in the appropriate fields were recruited so that we had a workshop for

3 the repair of roofs that were damaged through the shelling, and then these

4 people from the civil defence would go and cover those buildings. We also

5 had tailor shops, and all people who lacked clothing and footwear, we

6 assisted them by making something for them to wear so they would be

7 protected, especially during the winter months.

8 We also had workshops for repairing the gas network, for

9 repairing the electricity distribution system when there was electricity

10 for brief periods, for repairing the PT network. The PTT did function,

11 but then their experts worked in various neighbourhoods and monitored the

12 functioning of the PTT network. And then there were also specialists and

13 teams for repairing the electricity grids, though as I have said,

14 electricity was in very short supply during this period.

15 Q. And as regards, you've mentioned helping to fix roofs. Were there

16 any other areas of involvement that the Civil Protection had in connection

17 with the damage to buildings as such?

18 A. Yes. We repaired, that is to say, the UNHCR sent to our central

19 warehouse at the level of the city staff, plastic foil arrived and other

20 protective materials. And from them, they were distributed it to the

21 local communities. And after that, teams went out to see to the repair

22 work and protected windows with this plastic sheeting because the glass --

23 the windows had been shattered on many buildings. And this would make

24 life easier for the people living inside. It would make it warmer.

25 Q. And in the course of your own duties, did you have cause to go

Page 851

1 around the city of Sarajevo much, or did you stay mostly within your one

2 municipality?

3 A. It depended on the need. There were various meetings at the level

4 of the municipality, and depending on where their office was. As for the

5 Novi Grad municipality, I was in the field quite a lot. That is to say, I

6 toured the local communities fairly frequently and moved around in the

7 region I was in charge in, which was the Novi Grad municipality, mostly.

8 I went into town only sporadically. And let me tell you, to be quite

9 frank, the situation in Novi Grad was the same as in all the other parts

10 of town.

11 Q. In terms, having referred to damage to property, how bad was that

12 damage in Novi Grad or the other areas that you toured around, let us say

13 by the end of 1993?

14 A. As I'm not an expert in the field in assessing damage, I can't

15 tell you exactly what the damage to property was. I think the damage is

16 enormous, and cannot be assessed. I think that the damage was extremely

17 great and only expert reports and investigations done by professionals in

18 the field could give a proper answer to that question. But at the level

19 of the municipalities, commissions were set up to ascertain the damage

20 done, and they functioned within the town planning departments. And after

21 every shelling, those commissions, having been informed by the civil

22 defence people that certain property had been damaged in a certain

23 locality, those commissions, in keeping with the prevailing situation,

24 would go out to that locality to ascertain what damage had been done. And

25 I think that at the level of all the municipalities, and at the level of

Page 852

1 the city of Sarajevo itself, this has been calculated. It exists in

2 figures. They have figures as to what the damage incurred was, and it was

3 inestimable.

4 Q. At this stage, I would like -- really suggest it was a case of

5 your own naked eye. I would ask you one thing, was there any difference

6 -- in the sense of buildings that were damaged or less damaged, was there

7 any difference between domestic houses and apartment blocks and offices

8 and other buildings in terms of them receiving some damage, or was

9 everything?

10 A. If we were to look at it that way, I don't think we could divide

11 it up in that way. For example, that the target -- that what was targeted

12 was office buildings or private buildings and so on. I think there was

13 damage all over the place at one and the same time.

14 Q. There's just one thing I would ask you. You say there were

15 quantities of plastic delivered, the plastic foil for windows. Can you

16 tell me, please, what colour that plastic was?

17 A. It was white, and it said the "UNHCR" on it in capital letters.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

19 Now, at that time while all this work was going on by your people

20 in civil defence, how many people did you have in your civil defence

21 force to do this work?

22 A. On my staff, I had ten people, ten of my assistants. And they

23 were my assistants in the different areas of rescue and protection work.

24 Q. And of those assistants, did they or were they able to call upon

25 the services of other people to perform work?

Page 853

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So can you indicate, in your municipality, how many people in all

3 would have been working in Civil Protection during -- or civil defence,

4 I'm sorry, civil defence during that time?

5 A. As far as the civil defence staff of the municipality is

6 concerned, we had a total of 12 people working there. In the local

7 communities, civil defence staffs of that particular local community were

8 set up and they had five members each. In addition to those cadres, if I

9 can call them that, there were civil defence units which were set up in 22

10 local communities in the Novi Grad municipality. Each of those units

11 numbered approximately between 30 to 50 members. And in addition to those

12 people, there were the civil defence foremen who informed and monitored 20

13 inhabitants in the area, were in charge of that many number. 200, I beg

14 your pardon, 200 inhabitants. So that the figure -- if we look at 22

15 local communities times 30 persons on an average, that would make it about

16 600 people or 1.000 people working in the civil defence area for Novi

17 Grad.

18 The Novi Grad municipality at that time had 120.000 inhabitants,

19 roughly.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Kovac, what was the ethnic composition of

21 your staff and then generally the civil defence people in the

22 municipality?

23 A. I can say quite frankly and openly that the ethnic composition was

24 satisfactory. When I say that it was satisfactory, I must say that some

25 of the inhabitants of the Novi Grad municipality had left following

Page 854

1 certain directives; or for some other reasons, they had left the Novi Grad

2 municipality. But many people stayed on as well. I was very pleased to

3 see that quite a lot of people stayed, and this was reflected in the area

4 of civil defence. In my own staff, out of the ten of us there, four

5 people were the representatives of other nations. And if you like, I can

6 give you their names and surnames. They were representatives of the

7 Serbs, the Croats, and the Bosniaks.

8 Q. Mr. Kovac, we've heard that there was a mobilisation during 1992,

9 obviously to form the army, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So where were

10 you able, then, to draw your Civil Protection people, civil defence

11 people, if a lot of young men and middle-aged men, presumably, went into

12 the army?

13 A. When the mobilisation appeal was made, and in conformity with the

14 instructions given out by the Defence Ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina, many

15 people reported to the local communities and secretariats of defence in

16 the municipalities in which they lived. Now, when it came to civil

17 defence, some of the young people had applied to the civil defence to

18 begin with. But very soon after afterwards, when these national -- when

19 the defence secretariat was doing the mobilisation, sent those people to

20 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in the civil defence, it was mostly

21 people over the age of 40 or 45 who stayed on. And there were also women

22 and young people who were not fully capacitated to perform military

23 duties, partially unfit.

24 Q. Thank you. If I could move on to the relations between the civil

25 defence forces of people and other services to the city. You mentioned

Page 855

1 earlier the question of moving population and evacuation. Is that right?

2 You can just answer rather quickly.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did your civil defence people have anything to do with the

5 ambulance service of the city?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in what way did civil defence offer assistance to the

8 ambulance service?

9 A. Within the frameworks of the activities that the civil defence

10 conducted within the local communities, we set up teams for first aid to

11 people in the local areas. And those teams were able to give basic first

12 aid. But we had also organised a certain number of vehicles so that the

13 people who had been injured or were suffering in any way, we were able to

14 transfer them to larger centres for -- where they were able to get medical

15 assistance. So we took them to the hospitals, whether they were state

16 hospitals or the Kosevo compound.

17 Q. Now, in organising those vehicles, did you do anything to try and

18 distinguish them as ambulance-type vehicles?

19 A. Yes. That was the aim, and we placed a Red Cross symbol on those

20 vehicles which denoted vehicles specifically intended for the transport of

21 persons who were wounded or injured. But let me also mention in this

22 regard that we used other vehicles, too, vehicles who happened to be at a

23 certain place at a certain time. And in order to save citizens' lives, we

24 had to intervene on an emergency basis.

25 Q. Are you aware as to whether any of those marked vehicles that you

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Page 857

1 deployed for this purpose ever sustained any kind of gunfire from either

2 shelling or sniping?

3 A. Yes. Even the ambulances, the official ambulances, belonging to

4 the municipality, they were destroyed, too.

5 Q. In what manner? You say they were destroyed. In what way were

6 they destroyed?

7 A. When they were passing through certain danger zones in town, and

8 also they were targeted by snipers on the one hand, and they were shelled

9 on the other. Now, whether the shelling had targeted these vehicles on

10 purpose or whether they were hit by chance, accidentally, that's another

11 matter.

12 Q. And you've made reference also to "the official ambulances

13 belonging to the municipality." What kind of vehicles were they, and what

14 kind of colours were they and markings did they have?

15 A. Well, they were the classical type of vehicle. They were

16 combi-vans, the kind that are used all over the world for ambulances,

17 which means they were white vans with a Red Cross emblem on them, and it

18 said "ambulance" on the vehicle.

19 Q. Did they have any kind of identifying lights on them?

20 A. Yes, they had the sirens, blue lights on the roofs.

21 Q. Did your civil defence service have an involvement with the fire

22 brigade or fighting fires?

23 A. Yes. We had very good cooperation with the fire brigade of the

24 city of Sarajevo, and let me say that at the beginning of the war, in all

25 the municipalities, a specialised unit for extinguishing fires was set up

Page 858

1 for fire-fighting. And it functioned within the frameworks of voluntary

2 fire-fighters associations. And as such, those units were added to the

3 professional fire brigade for the city of Sarajevo, to help them.

4 Q. And did your staff members get involved in dealing with a lot of

5 fires during the conflict period that I've referred to, from May 1992 up

6 to the end of 1993?

7 A. Yes. They were large-scale fires.

8 Q. And did -- what sort of equipment did your people have to try and

9 tackle these fires compared, say to, the local fire brigade and such?

10 A. Well, we endeavoured to ensure that people could be recognised as

11 fire-fighters in the fire-fighting society. In addition to the fire

12 brigade, we had the necessary equipment and uniforms that the fire-fighters

13 were able to avail themselves of. They had certain uniforms, not perhaps

14 state of the art, but quite good enough. They had helmets which were

15 usually yellow, and they also had hoses and a number of fire engines,

16 too.

17 Q. And did they have to perform -- sorry, I won't ask that. Thank

18 you.

19 What I would like to do is just ask you quickly as well -- I'm

20 mindful of the time, Your Honours -- as to relations with the police.

21 What were the different duties that the police would perform in the town

22 and civil defence people would perform?

23 A. By law, the law that was enforced at the time and the rules and

24 regulations coming from the internal affairs ministry, and they were rules

25 and regulations that were well known to the people at the head of the

Page 859

1 police force, the police dealt with security tasks, law and order within a

2 settlement, and giving assistance to the army if there was an escalation

3 of the conflict in certain regions or areas.

4 As far as the civil defence's relations with the police are

5 concerned, it was always a correct and proper relationship, and always

6 within the frameworks of the laws in force at the time. Through our

7 commissioners, our civil defence commissioners, and staffs in the local

8 communities, we would supply the police with any information that could

9 have been of interest for the police, and we were satisfied with that

10 cooperation. And in certain cases, the police would help us if there was

11 unrest when aid was being distributed or water was being distributed, and

12 other situations as well which required the police -- which required the

13 police assistance. Or if there was any general unrest in town.

14 Q. And did you have any dealings yourself or any linked activity with

15 the UN forces in Sarajevo, the UNPROFOR presence? Did you have any

16 dealings with them?

17 A. Yes. And I should like to point out that we had some very fine

18 cooperation. I had direct and continuous cooperation, in fact, and visits

19 from the foreign legion's battalion, which was in charge of the Sarajevo

20 airport and which following UN tasks had come to see what was going on in

21 the Novi Grad municipality. So in addition to visiting the other services

22 and organs, they would pay regular visits to the civil defence staff, the

23 municipal civil defence staff and the local communities and staffs within

24 those communities. So we had excellent cooperation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, if I may interrupt you, if you could

Page 860

1 find a suitable moment within the next two or three minutes to finish at

2 least for today your examination, I would be happy.

3 MR. BLAXILL: I had one, I trust, brief question on this topic,

4 and I was going to suggest to Your Honours we had found a very natural

5 break in the examination.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Just proceed.

7 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. One last question I would like to ask you, Mr. Kovac, very

9 quickly. Did you receive any assistance from the UNPROFOR from time to

10 time, i.e. with actual equipment or actual physical help?

11 A. Well, let me tell you: From time to time they would assess the

12 situation in places where people had -- where there were a lot of people,

13 or in relation to ambulances, if they had a bit of fuel or a bit of food.

14 Let me say that it wasn't under their competence to help us. We received

15 aid from other channels, from other humanitarian organisations. But yes,

16 the assistance they were able to give was always very welcome. So I can

17 say that we had very good cooperation, and they were there to monitor and

18 see whether the humanitarian aid was distributed properly.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kovac.

20 MR. BLAXILL: That is very much a natural break, Your Honour, for

21 my examination-in-chief.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Blaxill. It is almost 7.00,

23 so I would suggest that we adjourn now and resume by tomorrow at quarter

24 past 2.00. Ms. Pilipovic, I saw you almost standing up. Is there

25 anything you would like to say?

Page 861

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, then. The Court will sit in recess

3 until tomorrow at 2.15 p.m. Thank you.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 6.59 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Thursday, the 6th day of December, 2001

7 at 2.15 p.m.

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