1 Monday, 14 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we ended last Friday during the

10 cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Ashton. Would you be prepared to

11 proceed? I see that Ms. Pilipovic is standing. Is there anything you

12 would like to --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're not receiving

14 the B/C/S interpretation on the sixth channel, so I wasn't able to hear

15 you just said.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The problem with the B/C/S interpretation is caused

17 by any technical problem or the absence of interpreters? I can't see

18 through the dark windows.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are present.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll ask the usher to call in the witness and

23 you may proceed in the cross-examination of Mr. Ashton.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we bring

25 in the witness, I should like to make two remarks concerning the problem

1 of interpretation, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Go ahead, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

4 Mr. President. The first of my remarks will be presented with my

5 apologies, because you were able to see in the transcript, in the English

6 transcript yesterday -- I'm not giving you the references because it's not

7 that important, but you were able to see that I was rephrasing a question,

8 or rather, asking the question once again concerning the missiles, but I

9 was actually referring to mortar shells, and the logical interpretation

10 should have been a shell instead of "missile." Every time I will be

11 referring to the shelling of Sarajevo, I won't be using the word

12 "missile." That is one of the remarks that I wanted to make.

13 The other one being something that you, Your Honour, has

14 mentioned. It is something that I paid attention to over the weekend.

15 There seems to have been a problem in the interpretation. I was not

16 referring to the day after but to something else. I will -- I hope that

17 we will be able to clarify the issue today during the cross-examination of

18 the witness.

19 I don't have any other remarks to make, and otherwise I'm ready to

20 proceed with my cross-examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Usher, would you please bring in

22 Mr. Ashton.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Ashton.

25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.

4 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Good morning, Mr. Ashton.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Let me continue where we left off last time by asking you the

10 following question: Is it true that you were interviewed on the 29th,

11 30th, and 31st of October, 2001, also on the 1st of November, 2001, then

12 the 12th, the 13th, and the 14th of November, 2001, concerning previous

13 incidents that you were able to experience in Sarajevo?

14 A. Those are the dates of the interview, yes, sir.

15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Is it true that you signed each of the

16 pages -- each page of your written statement?

17 A. Yes, I signed the pages of my statement.

18 Q. When you were introduced to the person who -- I'm sorry. When you

19 were presenting the facts about these incidents to the person who

20 interviewed you, did you present those facts in a chronological order,

21 generally speaking?

22 A. Generally speaking, yes.

23 Q. Thank you for your answer. So in principle, we can conclude that

24 the incidents were presented according to a chronological order?

25 A. No, because there were some incidents that I recall that fell into

1 place outside the chronological order.

2 Q. Is that your answer?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like

5 the written statement of the witness to be shown to him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We can actually present to him the whole statement or

7 parts of it?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that at the beginning

9 we can show him just one portion of the statement.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The short part, you had better read it; if it's a

11 longer part, then of course you'll have to tender that into evidence later

12 on if you present it to the witness or at least have it marked for

13 identification. I don't know what your intention is.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that it will be about

15 five pages.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Five pages. You had better present it to the

17 witness.

18 Is the Prosecution aware of the statement that will be provided to

19 the witness, date --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The origin of the statement is

21 the Office of the Prosecutor and I just mentioned the relevant dates.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The statements of all these dates?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I'm really

24 sorry, but I'm listening at the same time to the English interpretation.

25 Would you please follow the transcript so that I can answer to your

1 question? I'm sorry. I did not hear your question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you were

3 presenting statements of several dates or of a specific date?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The first pages,

5 Mr. President, are grouped under three dates.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You may proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which will take me only 30

8 seconds to locate the pages in question.

9 To be more precise, I am referring to the 12th, the 13th, and the

10 14th of November, 2001. I should like to show these few pages to the

11 witness at this point.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have them marked for identification

13 or are you going to present them --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will see, Your Honour, at

15 the end of the testimony. Internal numbers for the Prosecution are as

16 follows: 0212, 9568.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any copies for the Bench,

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me find my copies,

20 Mr. President. I should like to state that we've had a technical problem;

21 however, everything is here. I hope that everyone has got their copies.

22 Is there a problem with the interpretation? Very well. May I continue,

23 though I can see that my colleague is --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at line

1 11, said that he was referring to the statement of the 12th, 13th, and the

2 14th of November, 2001. That is correct in that the pages which he has

3 identified were attached to the statement signed on the 14th of November,

4 but more particularly, those pages come from the statement signed on the

5 1st of November, 2001 by the witness, which was attached to the later

6 statement. So I rise to my feet to clarify that the pages which my friend

7 has provided to the witness in fact come from the statement signed on the

8 1st of November, 2001. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think the main issue is at what time and what

10 date exactly they were signed but that we are not mistaken as far as the

11 pages are concerned.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please indicate always by the last

13 four figures the page you're referring to. So if you're asking anything

14 about 9568, then please indicate that it was 9568 or 9569 or -- yes?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do that,

16 Mr. President. However, let me indicate that we've had a problem with the

17 photocopying machine here in the building, and I no longer have the

18 relevant numbers in front of me. But I will be referring to the document

19 that you yourself have in front of you.

20 Q. Witness, on the pages that you have in front of you, do you

21 recognise your signature?

22 A. Yes, I recognise my signature.

23 Q. Is it true that one can follow the incidents that were the subject

24 of the statement in a chronological order, formally speaking?

25 A. I don't believe the -- all the incidents are in chronological

1 order in the statement.

2 Q. Let me rephrase the question, please. Is it not true that in this

3 document you were talking about an incident at the beginning which took

4 place at the beginning of July, then as we progress in the statement, you

5 finally speak about the moment when -- that is, the incident when you were

6 injured?

7 A. Okay. Yes. I believe that's correct.

8 Q. So it is a chronological order, more or less?

9 A. More or less.

10 Q. Mr. Ashton, would you please tell us, in these two documents, what

11 would be the incident which you referred to on Friday concerning the

12 photograph of the attack, the photograph which was taken from the PTT

13 building. If you don't remember the exact place, let me remind you that

14 the last four digits are 1328?

15 A. The two documents I've got, one document here -- what's the other

16 document you're referring to?

17 Q. You're talking about the photograph? Would you like to see it

18 again?

19 A. Yes. The other copy you have, if available.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, do I have to

21 show the witness the photograph once again?

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of the Registry

23 at this moment, so I'd like to ask the usher to bring the photo to the

24 witness. This is approximately in the middle of the bundle, Mr. Ashton.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the photograph 1328; is that correct?

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. If that's a question, yes, that's correct.

3 A. Where in the document are you pointing out Friday that was

4 reported to?

5 Q. I think that I asked a question [In English] witness statement

6 [Interpretation] And the question is as follows: In the witness statement

7 that you have in front of you, where is the incident which concerns the

8 photograph in question, 1328, that you also have in front of you?

9 A. I don't recall in all honesty referring to this incident here in

10 this document.

11 Q. Take your time. If you need to, you may read the text in its

12 entirety. We are talking about the month of July, 1992?

13 A. This photograph was not taken in July. This photograph was taken

14 in September.

15 Q. So is it your testimony that this photograph was taken in

16 September?

17 A. In the beginning of September. Yes, it was.

18 Q. Very well. Let me immediately follow up with another question.

19 You stated before this Court that in Germany, in a US air force base, you

20 had met someone that in French I would be referring to as a military

21 liaison. When was that? On what date?

22 A. In September he was working at Sarajevo airport. He wasn't in

23 Germany.

24 Q. No, no. I'm sorry. That's not my question. You stated, under

25 oath, before this Tribunal, that you had met this person in an American

1 base in Germany. Is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. When exactly was that?

4 A. Early October I went -- the end of September to Germany, I went

5 again in October to Germany. It was be sometime after that, because I had

6 the photographs when I came back.

7 Q. You also testified before this Court, sir - I do not wish to be

8 mistaken - that it was during your stay in this American base, which took

9 place immediately after your wounding, that is, some ten days later, the

10 2nd of August, 1992, to be more precise. You never testified before this

11 Court that you had been in this American base on several occasions. Why?

12 A. Because when I was working for the United Nations I had the

13 ability to fly on any UNPROFOR flight to any one of the countries it was

14 going to, Italy, Rhein-Main air force base, Zagreb, Split, and I made

15 flights to Rhein-Main, I made flights to Zagreb, I made flights to Split.

16 They're all recorded in the register at Luvkomet [phoen] is he Sarajevo

17 airport. Every time one of us got on the flights we would have to sign

18 in, and I travelled to Germany at least five times.

19 Q. And on each occasion it was order to meet with officers -- strike

20 that. On each occasion it was in order to meet with individuals on the

21 American base in Germany?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness just has stated that,

23 for example, he went to Italy, so a question asking whether he was always

24 seen on a German -- on German territory, other people --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase the question.

1 I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

2 Q. You have testified that you had seen this individual on several

3 occasions in Germany.

4 A. That's correct. Three, to be exact.

5 Q. You have also told us that the individual in question did not have

6 permission to leave the American base; is that correct?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. May I therefore conclude that you met with him on several

9 occasions at this particular American base?

10 A. For some reason, he was always at the plane when it arrived to

11 find out who was getting on or off the plane. I assume - I don't know -

12 he was there at the logistics end of it. I never asked that question.

13 Q. Does that mean that you met with him on several occasions at this

14 American base?

15 A. I met with him three times, each of the three times I saw him.

16 The first time I went out with him for drinks because I had to stay at the

17 hotel that night on the base. That was the night we had our detailed

18 conversation. That's the night he saw the pictures. The second time we

19 spoke briefly. He invited me to go with him to the base bar. I didn't

20 have time. The third time was also a brief greetings, a short

21 conversation about his interest in going to the United States, and that

22 was it.

23 Q. May I ask you to tell us what you were doing at that American

24 base? It's not because you were wounded once again, was it?

25 A. No. Whenever any one of us, any United Nations official, and even

1 journalists had the right to fly out on these flights to any base they

2 wanted to go, the British, the French, the Norwegians, the Italians, the

3 Spanish, and I flew on several other UNPROFOR flights. I flew with the

4 French quite frequently I flew with the British to Ancona, the French to

5 Ancona. I flew with the French to Split. I flew with the Americans from

6 Sarajevo to Zagreb.

7 Q. I don't think I heard you say yesterday that on several occasions

8 you had been to that American air force base. Is that correct?

9 A. No, I was not asked any question about how many times I went.

10 Q. Very well, then. I thought I heard you say that you gave as the

11 date of that photograph as being July.

12 A. No, I did not give that date as being July. This photograph was

13 taken early September and in October I showed this to the gentleman in

14 Rhein-Main air force base, along with some other photographs from the

15 hospitals. I had finally put an album together the beginning of October.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will check

17 that out later on. Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, to go back to that liaison person that we mentioned and

19 that we now discover that you met him on several occasions, in Germany,

20 now, was that person wearing civilian clothes or military clothes,

21 military uniform?

22 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.

23 Q. Why did you then say, and I quote from memory, but I will be able

24 to look it up in the text if you contradict me, that he was wearing a

25 uniform all the time?

1 A. I never said this guy wore a uniform. He never did.

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

4 Court's indulgence, there seem to be a number of important contradictions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... find the exact

6 text and then you may perhaps at a later moment come back to this.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really do apologise, but as

8 the witness has contradicted me, I must -- need to find the exact text.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... perhaps you

10 could try to find this during one of the breaks, and so that we can

11 continue now.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll find it straight away,

13 but yes, I will go on to ask the witness another question straight away.

14 Q. Witness, I asked you -- on Friday I asked you a question, to find

15 out whether you were treated in a hospital or private clinic in Germany.

16 Do you remember me asking you that? Yes or no?

17 A. I remember you insinuating that I was treated in a private clinic

18 and asking about a hospital, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you answered that you had never said

20 that you were ever treated in a private hospital? Did you say that?

21 A. No, I didn't say that. I said private clinic. I was not treated

22 in a private clinic.

23 Q. What is the difference between a clinic, a private clinic, and a

24 private hospital? Could you explain that, please?

25 A. The difference is between the question you asked on Friday. I was

1 treated Krankenhaus Bogenhausen in Germany, in Munich Germany. That was

2 the hospital I was treated at.

3 Q. So it wasn't a private hospital?

4 A. No. That's a State Hospital.

5 Q. And it is not a private clinic either?

6 A. Negative.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not the

9 first time this witness has contradicted himself. The witness asserted,

10 and I'm going to read it out to you in a moment, that he was treated in a

11 private hospital, and I'll find the exact reference in just a moment.

12 As far as the question -- as far as one of the number of

13 contradictions are concerned, the reference is the following: The 11th of

14 January is the date. It is a Friday, Friday the 11th of January, and the

15 exact line in my provisional transcript is as follows, and it comes from

16 the mouth of Mr. Ashton and it is 14:42:12, and I quote: [In English]

17 "Therefore, I have no idea if he was or was not except for the fact that

18 he was constantly in military clothes, every time I saw him."

19 Q. Let me ask the question once again of you, Witness. What you

20 said, is it correct or am I wrong?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: It is not my recollection that the witness said

24 that. We have gone on our LiveNote to the page and line provided by my

25 friend, and I don't see the text there. I assume that this is explained

1 by an anomaly with the software. My friend is now putting to the witness

2 the proposition that -- more or less he's inviting the witness to agree

3 that that's what was said. I would be grateful for an opportunity to find

4 that passage, given -- the passage in the transcript given that's not my

5 recollection that's what the witness said. Perhaps my friend could assist

6 me in finding that passage by referring from his transcript as to the

7 question which preceded that answer. That might assist us. Thank you,

8 Your Honour.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, I would allow Mr. Ierace to

11 at least check on the source you're using at this moment. But if you can

12 help him, please.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly. The document that

14 I have before me is the transcript of Friday, the 11th of January, 2002.

15 The question was asked at 14 hours, 41:27. And I'm going to reread the

16 answer. But, Mr. President, the question was asked in English, the

17 witness answered in English, and I am going to read out the quote.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You've found it, Mr. Ierace?

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the transcript on the LiveNote for

20 Friday indicates the time of commencement of cross-examination, which is

21 about 10 minutes before that time reference for my friend, so that has

22 assisted us to try and find the passage. We're just checking for it now.

23 If you would allow me a moment, Mr. President, I'll indicate when we've

24 found it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. As we're here, we

2 can quote the line where the witness asserted that he was indeed treated

3 in a private hospital, and he has just contradicted himself in that

4 regard.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've found a passage which confirms my

6 recollection. On my copy of the transcript, it is page 14 -- excuse me.

7 At least, the numbers in the margin are 1447:1. I'm unsure as to whether

8 14:47 refers to the time or the page number. Excuse me. I think it's the

9 page number. And I'll read the question and answer.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not quite

11 sure whether it is up to Mr. Ierace to read the questions and the answers

12 out.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of importance at

14 this moment that there's no misunderstanding about the lines you are

15 quoting. So I'll allow Mr. Ierace to read what is in his understanding

16 the line you're referring to, so that there will be no misunderstanding.

17 MR. IERACE: This passage appears in the answer: "First of all,

18 he was never a Bosnian Serb officer or a military personnel, at least he

19 never --"

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. That's quite a different

21 passage. I really do apologise.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to have -- could you please provide the

23 Bench, both of you, with the pages - I don't know whether they can be

24 printed or not - you're referring to. I want to make clear that there's

25 no misunderstanding about what is intended by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Since we

1 have no provisional transcript, the Bench has no provisional transcript

2 yet, I'd like you to present, as far as possible, the text you're

3 referring to so that I can check whether it is the same or not.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I hand the

5 usher the document in question and the contradiction is mentioned here, as

6 I said, at 14:41:12. That's where the contradiction appears.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether this is a contradiction or

8 not will later be decided by the Bench, if necessary, and you cannot just

9 suggest a contradiction may be there but not the contradiction as such.

10 Could you please provide first the Prosecution with the page you're

11 referring to, and if there's any misunderstanding, provide then the Bench

12 with the information.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, Mr. President, and

14 I should just like to note that we have the same documents but the Defence

15 will be happy to help out the Prosecution.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm grateful for that opportunity and

17 I'm grateful to my friend from providing the transcript, and I invite Your

18 Honours to read it. There are two relevant pages that -- that are two

19 relevant passages on the page which my friend has handed to me. The first

20 is at line -- and these are the numbers on this page - 14:39:02, and in

21 particular, 14:39:13, where these words appear: "He always wore civilian

22 clothes." And then further down the page, at 14:42:19, these words

23 appear: "He was constantly in military clothes, every time I saw him."

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's just what I was saying,

25 Mr. President.

1 MR. IERACE: I haven't finished. I haven't finished.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Oh, sorry.

3 MR. IERACE: It is my distinct recollection that at no stage did

4 the witness say, on Friday, that this person always wore military

5 clothes. In other words, it's my suspicion that there is a mistake in the

6 transcript which will need to be checked against the tape, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Prosecution may later check on whether

8 this is a mistake in the transcript or in the translation, but I think at

9 this moment, since the provisional transcript has to be -- the bases we

10 work upon at this moment, I will allow Mr. Piletta-Zanin to continue

11 questioning. There's no misunderstanding at this moment about what he's

12 referring to and whether this is a correct line or not, you'll have the

13 opportunity to challenge that later on.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no

16 suggestions to make to the proposal of the Prosecution, but I would like

17 to take note of the fact that we have no problems with the translation.

18 The Prosecution has no problems of interpretation and translation. Thank

19 you. And that as a result, if a problem has occurred, the Prosecution

20 reacts immediately and not three days later.

21 Having said that, and in that same vein of thinking, witness, you

22 have said that you were never treated in a private clinic or hospital.

23 Q. Have I misunderstood you or is that indeed what you stated?

24 A. I was treated in a hospital in Germany. Now, I didn't know if

25 Krankenhaus Bogenhausen was private or public, but I believe it's a

1 public hospital. I'm not sure.

2 Q. You said a moment ago that it was a State Hospital. I think the

3 term you used was State Hospital; is that right?

4 A. I'm not sure what Krankenhaus Bogenhausen's status is --

5 Q. Would you like to go back to your statement of a moment ago, what

6 you said?

7 A. I know what I said a moment ago. I'm just not positive -- I'm

8 under the impression that it is, but I'm I can't answer the question

9 because I'm not positive what the status is.

10 Q. A moment ago you were more assertive in the affirmative. But let

11 me rephrase my question. If today you do not know whether it was or was

12 not a public hospital, how, then, were you able to assert that it was not

13 a private clinic?

14 A. The only -- I can assert that it's not a private hospital.

15 Q. But that's the answer you gave me when I asked you. Why did you

16 give me that answer, then?

17 A. I don't know if it is state or private.

18 Q. Why did you tell me, categorically, in answer to one of my

19 questions, that it wasn't a private clinic? I think you said, following

20 on from my memory, "I never stated that I was treated in a private

21 clinic." I think that's what you said. So why did you say that, if you

22 weren't sure?

23 A. Because that is correct. I was never treated in a private

24 clinic. I was treated in a hospital, not a clinic.

25 Q. Very well. What is the difference, sir, between a hospital and a

1 clinic? That is also one of the questions I asked you a moment ago?

2 A. My definition of a clinic in Germany is a small institution where

3 you go for specialised treatment. A hospital is a large institution that

4 treats a wide variety of injuries with an emergency room and a complete

5 medical -- it's a complete medical facility.

6 Q. Is that the reason why you said that?

7 A. Said what?

8 Q. The answer we're talking about now, that you were never treated in

9 a private clinic.

10 A. That's the reason I said I was never treated in a private clinic.

11 That is correct.

12 Q. But you'll agree with me that you did state that you were treated

13 in a hospital, a private one?

14 A. I was treated in a hospital.

15 Q. Private?

16 A. I don't know if it's private or state. I'm not sure if

17 Krankenhaus Bogenhausen --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

19 refer back to the statement, if I may, now, or rather, the evidence,

20 because the witness's memory seems to be shorter than our own. On the 9th

21 of January, 2002, line 16:31:39, and I would be happy to provide the

22 Prosecution with a copy if they are unable to find that particular line,

23 but I shall quote, 16:31:39 is the line number [In English], "so I went to

24 Munich, to a private German hospital, where the doctors said," And so on

25 and so on and so on.

1 Q. Mr. Ashton, did you state, on the 9th of January of this year, at

2 around 1600 hours, 31 minutes, 39 seconds, that you were treated in a

3 private hospital in Munich?

4 A. Okay. Now there's clarification in the question you're asking.

5 It's very clear to me why I responded how I did on the 9th of January. In

6 reference, you kept trying to assert that I was treated at a military

7 hospital, and I explained that I was not treated at a military hospital.

8 I went to a German hospital. Whether private or state, it didn't matter.

9 I just went -- I was not treated at a military institution. That's what I

10 was trying to point out.

11 Q. I think that you understood the question very well.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you just indicate the

13 relevance of this questioning to the Court, because one thing is for sure,

14 that Mr. Ashton indicated, whether state or private or military or

15 whatever, that he was treated in a hospital which was called Bogenhausen.

16 Could you please indicate, apart from the point you made, that in the

17 wording of the answers given by the -- yes, please.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. President, for the

19 following reason: We don't have the name of the hospital in question.

20 The witness stated what he stated, that is to say that he was treated in a

21 hospital, and the name that I heard given was krankenhaus.

22 JUDGE ORIE: He said several times.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I'm not quite sure. We

24 can ask him the question again, and that's what I want to learn,

25 actually. May I go ahead with the question?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What was the exact name, sir, of the hospital in question?

4 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen and you will find that in Friday's

5 statement.

6 Q. You have a better memory of it now?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Bogenhausen?

9 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen.

10 Q. Very well. I think there was a problem in the transcript, but we

11 have the name now, and that's what I wanted to arrive at?

12 JUDGE ORIE: What I would like to clarify, Mr. Ashton, at this

13 moment, in order to avoid further misunderstandings, Bogenhausen sounds

14 very much like the name of a village or a city. Was the name of the

15 krankenhaus, of the hospital, was Bogenhausen or was the location of the

16 hospital in a village, city, whatever, called Bogenhausen?

17 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen sir, is on the outskirts of Munich. I

18 believe, and I'm not positive, so I can't tell you the exact, but I

19 believe it's in the Bogenhausen district of Munich. It's an area of

20 Munich.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any other hospitals in Bogenhausen?

22 A. No, sir, I'm not.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 Q. Witness, let me go back to my questions and the list thereof. We

2 seem to have lost a great deal of time in clearing up that contradiction.

3 JUDGE ORIE: When you're trying to find your next question, I

4 would like to draw your attention to what, in my mind, may be a mistaken

5 translation. I'd like to take you back to a line which is indicated as

6 9:32:14.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which date, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: You ordered us to react immediately, so that's what

9 we are doing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So I've got on 9:32:14, in my

10 recollection, the witness has not stated a hospital is a large institution

11 that treats a wide variety of injuries, but, as far as I understood, he

12 was referring to a wide variety of types of treatment needed and not just

13 injuries. I don't know whether this is also the recollection of the

14 parties. If this is true, we might correct it right away.

15 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Your Honour. That's the recollection of

18 Mr. Blaxill alongside me.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I admit that I did not quite

21 take your point.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The point is that it is referring to various types of

23 injuries, where I thought that the witness was referring to various types

24 of illnesses in need of treatment.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, what I didn't

1 understand, Mr. President, is why you indicated that it was a problem of

2 translation, interpretation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In my recollection, but if it's not true, of course

4 you can check the tape.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's the word "translation"

6 that rather surprised me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I think it has not great relevance. I just

8 wanted to --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite. Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, you stated, and I'm referring back to your accident on

11 the 23rd of July, 1992, that you were escorted by some seven men. Is that

12 right? Is that correct?

13 A. Seven directly with me, yes.

14 Q. You mentioned, in English, concerning those seven people, I think

15 you used the term "team." Is that correct?

16 A. I don't remember the term "team." I'm sorry.

17 Q. May I quote once again?

18 JUDGE ORIE: You may always quote, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, you

19 may always quote.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you profoundly.

21 Q. We're talking about the day of the 9th of January, 9th of January,

22 2002, and you indicated the following: [In English] "At that point, the

23 team I was travelling with," et cetera, et cetera. [Interpretation] Can

24 you firm --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace is on his feet.

1 MR. IERACE: I'd be grateful if my friend could give pages and

2 line references.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to give you the

5 line in due course. I think it is 16:28:10. But we have no page

6 indication on this provisional document. But let me quote again "at that

7 point, the team I was travelling with," et cetera, et cetera.

8 Q. Did you in fact use that term "team," sir? Yes or no, please?

9 A. I don't recall the word "team." I mean, group, team. I use

10 the same interactively.

11 Q. The word "team" or "group" meant the people in question; is that

12 right? You were referring to them?

13 A. Team or group, yes. I was with a group.

14 Q. The seven people that I mentioned a moment ago?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You stated before this Tribunal that the five policemen who were

17 accompanying you did not carry weapons. Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And you've just told me that the word "team" or "group" designated

20 the same thing, that is to say, the people who were accompanying you, and

21 there were seven of them, and you stated, after the quotation that I just

22 quoted a moment ago, you go on to say [In English], "Had time to get their

23 weapons up and return fire." [Interpretation] End of quotation. I

24 therefore take it, following on from your explanations, that the team that

25 you were saying numbered seven persons was armed because you stated that

1 they were able to return fire. Is that correct?

2 A. That is not correct.

3 Q. Haven't you told me a moment ago that the word "team" that you

4 used concerned the group of people that accompanied you -- meant the group

5 of people that accompanied you?

6 A. You phrased this last statement, this last question, they raised

7 their weapons and returned fire. I never indicated who raised their

8 weapons and returned fire. I did indicate -- I don't know if in this

9 testimony, but I did indicate that the HVO soldiers who were in front of

10 us raised their weapons and returned fire. The police officers --

11 Q. I asked a very precise question of you. I asked you about the

12 team, and you told me that you had spoken about a group of people. We

13 knew that there were seven of them, and you stated, I'm going to read once

14 again, if necessary [In English], "And at that point the team that I was

15 travelling with had time to get their weapons." [Interpretation] And

16 you've just told me that the word "team" in English corresponded to the

17 group of seven people who accompanied you. Is it true that you stated

18 that the police officers in civilian clothes who accompanied you were not

19 armed?

20 A. The police officers who accompanied me were not armed. That's

21 correct.

22 Q. How is it possible, then, that the group was able to return fire,

23 if they were not armed?

24 A. One HVO officer was with the group. He was in front of me. And

25 there were three more HVO officers -- or I shouldn't say officers. I

1 should say soldiers, were in front of them, that were not with our group

2 but they were moving in front of us.

3 Q. You have testified, Mr. Ashton, that you only had two soldiers as

4 your escort, two soldiers in uniform. Now I'm discovering that there were

5 more of them. It seems that we have at least five soldiers in uniform.

6 A. No, there were not five soldiers in uniform. There were two

7 soldiers. One soldier escorting us, one in front of him, and then there

8 were two HVO soldiers waiting on the opposite side of the intersection for

9 us to cross. All in total there were four HVO soldiers and five policemen

10 in civilian clothes, without weapons. The HVO soldiers were armed.

11 Q. Are you talking about the four persons who were ahead of you, who

12 preceded you in order to cross the street?

13 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I submit that that question

14 does not reflect the evidence and it presumes to reflect the evidence.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please say in what respect it doesn't

17 reflect the evidence? We haven't got the transcript in front of us, the

18 transcript of Friday. Are you referring to today's --

19 MR. IERACE: I'm referring to the answer given by this witness

20 which appears on the LiveNote at page 26, from line 3, at 10.02 and 40

21 seconds. The evidence is to the effect -- I'm sorry. 10.03 and 2

22 seconds. That evidence is to the effect that there was one soldier

23 escorting the witness and the civilian-dressed police officers, one in

24 front of him, and then two on the other side of the intersection. The

25 question put by my friend refers to the four persons who were ahead of

1 you. In fact, the evidence is not that there were four people in front of

2 him but one military person with them, another just in front, and then two

3 much further on.

4 JUDGE ORIE: On the other side of the intersection.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There might be some misunderstanding as far as the

7 four or two people are concerned. Could you please rephrase the question

8 as such, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so that everyone is happy with it.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I

10 don't know whether the objection has been sustained or overruled, because

11 as far as I remember --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying not to waste too much time. So if you

13 were in a position to rephrase your question so that everybody could be

14 happy with it, we don't have to give a decision, we don't have to check

15 every single detail of the last 15 minutes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me quote, and it

17 won't be the first time today. And I quote once again, 16:26:41: [In

18 English], "Then we moved --" let me quote another passage, line 16:27:12

19 [In English], "And when we got into the street, four men in front of me

20 went across, and there were several behind me." [Interpretation] The

21 question that I asked before I was interrupted by the Prosecution

22 concerned those four individuals. I don't know whether Mr. Ierace

23 maintains his objection now or not, but I think we have the same text,

24 Mr. Ierace, now.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm seeking to discover that passage.

1 Unfortunately, the transcript which is made available after the day of

2 hearing does not have times on it, and my friend refers constantly to

3 times. If, Mr. President, you will allow me just a moment, I think I can

4 reasonably quickly locate that passage.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will be happy to quote the

6 relevant passage once again, if necessary.

7 MR. IERACE: I've found the passage. My friend now says that when

8 he referred to four people in front, he was referring to this passage in

9 the transcript. Now, that was not at all clear to me, and I presume to

10 the witness, and I presume to Your Honours. It followed on references to

11 the military people who were accompanying the witness, as well as those on

12 the other side of the intersection. Thank you.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So you stand by your

14 objection, Mr. Ierace; am I correct?

15 MR. IERACE: Yes. I object to the previous question that was

16 asked. My friend has now clarified, for all our benefit, which four

17 people he was referring to. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It has been clarified by now. I think the objection

19 should be denied. I'm just looking to my fellow Judges. Since there's

20 whatever misunderstanding there might have been is not there any more.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. President.

24 Q. So before I was interrupted, Mr. Ashton, I told you that there had

25 been four individuals in front of you, and now you are telling us that

1 these four individuals were military men. It's a question.

2 A. There were four military individuals on the -- in front of me in

3 the position -- in the angle -- in the direction I was going. There were

4 five men in civilian clothes behind me unarmed. There were other soldiers

5 very close by, within five, six metres away, but I did not pay attention

6 to who they were, what they were.

7 Q. Do I understand you correctly, in fact, in front of you, you had

8 four individuals in uniform, which made up a team, and a certain number of

9 other people, also in uniform, behind you?

10 A. I just said the five civilian -- men behind me were in civilian

11 clothes, not in uniform, as you've stated in this question. I'm sorry to

12 correct you, but this is what you've stated here. The four men in front

13 of me were in uniform; that is correct.

14 Q. Nevertheless, you stated that you only had two military men in

15 uniform as your escort.

16 A. You have stated that the four men in front of me were a team.

17 That's not the way I saw it. They were not a team.

18 Q. The word "team" comes from your own testimony, but this is not a

19 question. My question concerned four soldiers or four men in uniform in

20 front of you. Is that correct?

21 A. There were four men in front of me in uniform. That is correct.

22 One was with a group I was travelling with and the other three were

23 individuals who were going the same direction but crossed the street

24 before I did.

25 Q. So am I correct in concluding that this was just an occasional

1 escort?

2 A. What do you mean by "occasional"?

3 Q. An escort which was not with you at all times.

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Nevertheless, these soldiers were very close to you at the time of

6 the incident?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. So why didn't you therefore mention in your testimony that there

9 was a group of at least five military men during this incident who were

10 close to you?

11 A. There were only four directly related to me, and five civilian --

12 five men in civilian clothes that were identified to me as police

13 officers. One was a friend, the other four were his friends, and that's

14 all I can tell you. Now, there were other soldiers in the area, as I

15 stated before. I don't even know how many there were. There were others

16 I saw in uniform, very close by.

17 Q. So you're saying that there were four men in uniform who were

18 close by?

19 A. In front of me, yes.

20 Q. And only one of them was a member of your escort. That is what

21 you have just stated?

22 A. He was travelling in front of us, yes.

23 Q. So other members of your escort were behind you, the second one,

24 that is, the second person who escorted you?

25 A. The person behind me was my friend Sonni who was a police officer

1 off-duty from Sarajevo.

2 Q. You have told us that you had two soldiers in uniform as your

3 escorts. Is that correct?

4 A. There was one directly in front of me in uniform that was part of

5 the group, but there was another one that joined us before we got to the

6 intersection, there were two at the intersection. The four of them

7 crossed the intersection and I followed. That's when I was shot.

8 Q. Five or four people with you, armed and in uniform?

9 A. There were five people behind me in civilian clothes. There was

10 one in front of me who was talking to our team, our group, however you

11 want to phrase that. He was moving with us. There was one -- we joined

12 us, just before we got to the intersection, he joined up with us --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will ask the

14 question for the third time, I believe now.

15 Q. Four or five people in uniform with weapons that were with you?

16 A. There was only one person in uniform with me. There were four

17 people in uniform in front of me, going the same direction.

18 Q. How far from you were they?

19 A. The first fellow was right in front of me, who was travelling with

20 us. He was in an HVO uniform. The second gentleman we caught up with.

21 He was about five metres in front of us. And then the other two gentlemen

22 were at the intersection. We caught up with them. They talked, the four

23 gentlemen talked to each other. They warned me of the danger of crossing

24 the intersection. And then one by one they ran across. Two of them

25 waited on the other side before anyone else did anything. We talked a

1 little bit there. And then the third one and the fourth one went and then

2 I went. They were not escorts. Just the one soldier was actually an

3 escort.

4 Q. Let me remind you that you testified the other day that you had

5 had two escorts. Is my memory correct?

6 A. There were two HVO officers or soldiers that joined links before

7 we got to the intersection, yes. There was a second one that joined us.

8 Q. Let me ask a different question at this point, Mr. Ashton, whether

9 any civilians in Sarajevo, during your stay there in Sarajevo, who wore

10 camouflage clothes, or as certain armies call it, the leopard-patterned

11 uniform.

12 A. No, I don't recall seeing any of them.

13 Q. Are you absolutely positive about that?

14 A. Yes. To my recollection, I'm absolutely positive about that.

15 Q. Sir, I am referring to individuals who worked for or within the

16 army when I talk about camouflage pattern clothes?

17 A. I believe you said civilian. No, I did not see civilians. No.

18 Army soldiers is different.

19 Q. I'm talking about civilians, yes.

20 A. I'm sorry. Let me try and understand your question.

21 Q. The question is very simple. Did you ever see, at any point in

22 time during your stay in Sarajevo, any civilian, irrespective of their

23 gender or age, wearing camouflage uniforms?

24 A. If you consider police officers civilians, they had a blue

25 camouflage --

1 Q. I'm not talking about police officers. I'm talking about

2 civilians. I will ask the question for the third time. Did you ever see

3 civilians, regardless of their sex or age, in Sarajevo during the time

4 that you spent there in Sarajevo, who wore camouflage uniforms?

5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. My friend says -- yes. My

6 friend says this is the third time he's asked the question. The first

7 time he asked it, he confined it to civilians who, "Worked for or within

8 the army." I'd be grateful if my friend could make clear whether at this

9 stage he still confines his reference to civilians to those who were in

10 the employment of the army. Thank you.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] When I say "civilian," I'm

12 referring to a civilian. Once again, let me ask my question. My question

13 concerns civilians.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find out, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what

15 this misunderstanding is about. If you're talking about civilian persons,

16 you can think of their formal status not being military people, not being

17 police officers. You can also understand civilians as those who are not

18 on duty if there was any military position or any police position during

19 duty hours. So I'd like you to clearly identify what you understand by

20 "civilian" and not just by saying that civilians are civilians.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, in your statement, you stated that very often civilians

23 were targeted by isolated shots and/or shelling. Whom did you have in

24 mind when you say "civilians"?

25 A. Civilians as defined by this question were people who were in

1 their daily clothes to go to work, women in dresses, their coats, kids in

2 T-shirts, pants, just no uniforms at all, just as an average person on the

3 street here in The Hague would look walking to work.

4 Q. So you're defining a civilian only by presence of a uniform?

5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I presume my friend means

6 only by the absence of a uniform.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what you had in mind,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is that true?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] When I said by presence of a

10 uniform, one can also interpret that if a uniform is present, we are not

11 talking about a civilian.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Ashton, I do

13 understand that you understood by "civilians" that people who could not be

14 identified from their appearance, especially as far as clothing was

15 concerned, as anything other than civilians, so no military uniforms, no

16 police uniforms; just ordinary civilian clothing, as you find it every day

17 on the street. Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very grateful to you,

21 Mr. President, for this clarification. At this point I should like to

22 show the witness a document that we intend to tender as an exhibit. Yes,

23 as an exhibit. The document will be D12. It consists of several pages.

24 It is a written statement by Mr. Roy Thomas, which was provided for by

25 the Prosecution. I should like the witness to read out to you, Your

1 Honours, what was declared in the statement, if this is possible, by

2 Mr. Roy Thomas.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is this just a few lines or is this a long --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like him to read only

5 three lines, more or less.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is the context of the document as such that you -- of

7 course, you are free to tender it into evidence, but if it's just about

8 the three lines, I don't think there's any specific need for that, unless

9 of course the Prosecution --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So may I read them out

11 directly, if you wish me to do so.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... dealing with at

13 this moment.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 00552646 is the number.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a copy so that perhaps the Prosecution

16 could just follow your reading?

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think the original could be, for the time being, be

19 returned to the Defence, if they're just quoting a few lines.

20 Mr. Ierace, is it clear enough for you?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, it's certainly legible, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Q. Witness, I am now going to read to you what was stated by another

25 witness, Mr. Thomas Frances Roy, who was also in Sarajevo as an officer,

1 I believe. He stated the following: [In English] "One of the problems

2 with this was the question of who was a soldier. Many people, including

3 women and children, wore camouflage, and then, many people who were

4 military wore civilian clothes."

5 [Interpretation] Have you understood this quotation, sir?

6 A. Yes, I understand the quotation.

7 Q. Do you think that the witness didn't see things as they were or it

8 was you who perhaps did not observe civilians wearing camouflage?

9 A. I did not observe civilians wearing camouflage. I don't recollect

10 any civilian that I saw wearing camouflage, especially women and children.

11 Q. Thank you. On the other hand, you testified that some soldiers

12 wearing a uniform --

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In line 10:27:30, you used the word "another

14 witness, Mr. Thomas Frances Roy." He is not a witness, so as you are

15 referring to this witness afterwards, it is better to avoid the confusion.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your

17 Honour. I should have used a different term. I should have said by

18 another statement -- in another statement. Thank you.

19 Q. Let me now go back to what you stated, sir. In response to a

20 question asked of you by the Prosecution, you stated that at the beginning

21 of the hostilities, a certain number of soldiers of Bosnian forces would

22 move from one location to another without weapons, without carrying any

23 arms, because of a shortage of weapons. Do you abide by what you have

24 said?

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again I object. I'd be grateful for a

1 reference, and a reference that is useful to us, in other words, one which

2 enables us to find the passage. I particularly rise to my feet on this

3 occasion because, at least to me, that question doesn't make sense. A

4 particular piece of evidence from this witness does not spring to mind in

5 response to that question. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please specify the source of your

7 reference.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is this an objection by

9 Mr. Ierace?

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and I invited

11 you to --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me then try to find ... I

13 will need some time to do that. Let me quote once again. Excuse me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You're quoting for the first time. You were

15 referring to a statement. You are quoting for the first time.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I just wanted to say

17 that that was not the first time that I'm quoting something today. Thank

18 you. [In English] "Most of them were not armed because at that point in

19 the war they didn't have any weapons except the ones on the front line,

20 which they traded."

21 Mr. Ierace, the reference is 16:48, January 9th, 2002.

22 The Defence will be happy to give you a hard copy if you need.

23 What is the decision of the Court regarding the objection raised by

24 Mr. Ierace?

25 JUDGE ORIE: You have now identified the source. I would like

1 Mr. Ierace to confirm that he could find it or otherwise you provide him

2 with a copy.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of saving time, I

4 don't require a further reference at this stage. We have some

5 recollection of those words now that we have been given the quote, and we

6 are content for it to proceed. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Has the objection been

9 rejected?

10 JUDGE ORIE: It has been sustained to the extent that you had to

11 specify in more detail the source of your reference, and since you have

12 done so, there is no objection which remains.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me ask the question once

14 again, that is, for the second time.

15 Q. Do you confirm this? If I understand you correctly, there were

16 soldiers who could find themselves in town, on duty, active, but without

17 weapons.

18 A. Yes, that is true.

19 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. In respect of this same

20 passage, you, I believe, used the word "stress," but I will check if

21 necessary, that the army was under pressure. Is that correct? I'm

22 referring to the army of Sarajevo.

23 A. Can you read the whole statement?

24 Q. By all means.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this might be a suitable moment

1 for this Chamber at this moment to have a break, and this will give you

2 the opportunity not only to find the source of the statement -- the

3 testimony you're referring to at this moment. But I will not allow you

4 any more to put questions without giving clear, specified sources of the

5 references you are making. And please make available to yourself as well

6 hard copies for the Prosecution so that if there's any technical problem

7 in finding immediately the source, that you can hand it over to the

8 Prosecution. Let's not forget that I think we lost at least 10 to 15

9 minutes this morning just by trying to find our sources. Proper

10 preparation of cross-examination means that if you can refer to the

11 testimony given before while preparing it, you also can write down the

12 exact source and have the lines literally available so that any

13 misunderstanding will be avoided.

14 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

15 --- Break taken at 10.38 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, assuming that you found the source

18 you wanted to refer to in putting the last name -- the last question to

19 the witness, I'll give you the opportunity to proceed as soon as the

20 witness has been brought into the courtroom. Mr. Usher is already ...

21 Madam Registrar, the usher is --

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this an issue -- is there any objection

1 against the witness being brought in?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was simply this: The

3 Defence is paying great attention to citing -- quoting from the text

4 exactly, and we are ready to provide the text, but I would just like to

5 note that there seems to be a technical difficulty in the sense that we

6 have transcripts with certain numbers, that is to say, date and hour

7 numbers, and I was given to understand that the Prosecution has a

8 different form of transcript.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... unless you have

10 another solution, because I'm more solution-directed than

11 problem-directed. Will there be a possibility of having all the same

12 provisional transcripts? Madam Registrar, do you think that this would be

13 ... Sorry. We're just wondering, we see that two different kinds of

14 provisional transcripts are used by the parties. Are they in the same

15 language, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: The one I have is in English. I think it's

17 the same language.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So could proper attention be paid to the fact that

19 the parties at this moment have different types of provisional

20 transcripts, and so that they get the same, in order not to lose any more

21 time in refining the sources.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Your Honour, I'll just call up the

23 transcript coordinators and I asked them to bring up six copies of the

24 transcript now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So we have copies even for the Bench so we can follow

1 your quarrelling about the sources. Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there's

2 no other matter, then the usher may bring in Mr. Ashton.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst he's being brought in, could I

4 merely ask what time is the next break?

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think, if I may correct you, --

6 MR. IERACE: Oh, excuse me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The next break, I intended to have the next break

8 after one hour and 20 minutes from 11.00, so I would say at -- let me just

9 check.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say half past 12.00 or a little bit

12 before, so that another hour remains after that short break. Yes. Thank

13 you.

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

16 floor.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With reservations as to the

19 exactitude and correspondence, actually, of the documents in question,

20 with that proviso, the quotations that I'm going to make with respect to

21 the term "stress" corresponds, looking at my lines, 17:14:31. Those are

22 my figures. And the transcript is dated the 9th of January, 2002. So I'm

23 going to quote the passage in question, with your permission, Your

24 Honour. May I proceed, Your Honour? Thank you.

25 [In English] "They were terribly stressed along the front lines,

1 so you didn't see many of them in the city."

2 [Interpretation] That is line 17:14:31, and the following one. I

3 am referring to this passage of your testimony, Witness, and if I

4 understood you correctly, you were indicating that the majority of the

5 soldiers at that particular point in time were at the front lines or front

6 line, rather.

7 A. Excuse me, but, Your Honour, there may be a mistranslation here.

8 I may have said "stressed," but I thought I said "stretched." The

9 interpreter may have gotten that wrong and --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It wasn't an interpretation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It would be a matter of the transcript. If you think

12 that this is not the wording you used, of course you'll have some

13 difficulties in explaining what "stressed" would mean if it's not in your

14 mind. We can check later on, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether, of course,

15 "stressed" and "stretched" are quite similar to each other.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I do understand.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed in questioning, although "stressed"

18 might not be the beginning of the answer of the witness.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Well, I'm not that stressed.

20 A. In answer to your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, either stressed or

21 stretched, I meant they were very thinly placed along the front line.

22 Okay. One moment.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, to make up for time,

24 Mr. President, I'll put another question or put it differently. Thank

25 you.

1 Q. Witness, do you know how many soldiers numbered the troops of

2 Sarajevo at that time, how many men did the troops at Sarajevo at that

3 time have? What were their numbers?

4 A. I did not know. I was not involved in their statistics.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, am I correct in recalling and in

6 saying that you stated yourself that you had seen, on several occasions,

7 tanks in action, and more specifically, close to the Jewish cemetery area?

8 A. On one occasion above the Jewish cemetery, yes, I did.

9 Q. On one particular occasion you stated that you were able to

10 observe these tanks well because you had, I think you said, telescopic

11 sights with you, telescopic lenses. Is that true?

12 A. That's correct. I had a high-resolution Nikon lens on my Nikon

13 camera.

14 Q. Thank you. So you had your photograph -- your camera with you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you take photographs of the tank?

17 A. I took photographs of the firing, yes.

18 Q. My question did not have to do with the firing but the tank

19 itself.

20 A. No, I didn't take any pictures of the tank.

21 Q. So you were in action, you saw the tank, you are a wartime

22 photographer, and you did not take photographs of the tank. Is that how I

23 am to understand what you said?

24 A. I did not take pictures of that tank.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer?

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like

2 to give the witness a number of other exhibits to look at. Do I have your

3 authorisation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to know in advance whether you are going

5 to just have them marked for identification or you want to tender them

6 into evidence.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Here is my

8 answer. Previously, the exhibit that I read out from, we would like to

9 tender it into evidence, and it is D12.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness statement that was -- yes?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. Mr. Roy

12 Thomas.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas. Do you have it, Madam Registrar?

14 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour. I just returned that one to the

15 Defence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I remembered. So you want to

17 tender that into evidence. We'll do that at the end of your

18 cross-examination, but at least give a prenumbered copy, D12, to the

19 Registry.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can hand it over right

21 now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the other exhibits that I

24 wish to present the witness with are photographs, for the most part, and

25 as far as possible, I should like the witness to answer in technical terms

1 and to give quite specific answers.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Provide the Prosecution and the Bench with copies

3 and --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll do that straight away,

5 Mr. President, yes. The number is D13, a first exhibit. Can I hand it

6 over to the registrar -- the usher, I'm sorry. To the usher.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please collect the ...

8 Yes, and please distribute them. Yes.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't think the

11 witness has received a copy of the text yet. Could the witness be given

12 it?

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: Just before that takes place, I have now found the

17 passage which my friend read out about ten minutes ago.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Which he read out as follows: They were terribly

20 stressed along the front lines, so you didn't see many of them in the

21 city.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate also what page it is.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes. Page 1320.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 1320.

25 MR. IERACE: Commencing at line 5, and it reads, in English --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. IERACE: "The forces were so thin that they were terribly,

3 terribly stretched, out along the front lines, so you didn't see much of

4 them in the city." So it appears that the witness's recollection was in

5 fact correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is correct. Thank you.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I'm positively sorry. What I have is

8 "stressed."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be that you have the provisional copy

10 and that they have later been corrected. So this is a misunderstanding.

11 I can't blame anyone for.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Sorry about that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I go ahead with my

15 question?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. First question, sir: Do you speak French?

19 A. Who are you asking? Are you asking me that question?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Okay. No, not -- no.

22 Q. Why did you state in your written statement that you spoke French?

23 A. Because I studied French. I can understand a little bit.

24 Q. Why have you just told me that you don't speak French?

25 A. Because I'm not fluent. I don't speak it every day.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. Very well. The photograph that you have in front of you, what

2 type of weapon, with technical details, does this represent? And when I

3 say a technical definition of the weapon, what I mean is, is it a T-57,

4 58, 54, or whatever. Give us the numbers that the weapon is identified

5 by.

6 A. This looks like a modified T-55 or possibly a T-64. It has a

7 100-millimetre gun on it.

8 Q. So you think it is a T-55 or --

9 JUDGE ORIE: It looks like a modified T-55, or possibly a T-64.

10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And now I'd like to present another document. We're going to

13 produce it, under the following number: D13. And I'd like to tender it to

14 the Court.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The document just given to us bears the number D13,

16 so there might be -- if you're talking about another document --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Actually, we're talking about

18 D14. I apologise. Thank you very much. Can I hand it to the usher? And

19 I'm going to ask the witness the same question for each of these

20 documents, each of the following documents.

21 Q. The same question for you, witness.

22 A. This is a T-72 with a 122-millimetre [Realtime transcript read

23 incorrectly "100-millimetre "] gun, apparently. I can't see the muzzle

24 Q. What was the number you've just given? Which number?

25 A. T-72.

1 Q. I can't see the transcript. It hasn't come up on the transcript.

2 It hasn't come up on my screen yet. 72? 72?

3 A. Yes. And the transcript is wrong here. I said 122-millimetre

4 gun.

5 Q. Okay. Witness, I have another question for you, and it concerns a

6 document which will be D15, document D15, and I'd like to hand that out

7 now too, to the usher. And the questions will always be the same,

8 Mr. President, that is, to identify, giving the technical number.

9 So the same question once again, Witness?

10 A. This appears to be a T-72 as well.

11 Q. We now come to the next document, Mr. Usher, which is D16. I

12 apologise for having to make you get up every time?

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and then -- have

14 they been prenumbered by you or -- so that there will be no

15 misunderstanding, so it saves us walking up and down the courtroom five

16 times.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. We have D17 and

18 D18. Just a moment, please. We also have D19, D20, and D21 is the last

19 one. Now, for each of these different exhibits, could the witness please

20 indicate to us every time what the model on the photo is.

21 Mr. President, in the meantime, perhaps -- no.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the Bench be provided with the -- until D15 has

23 been distributed. Yes? Okay.

24 Mr. Ashton, you may answer the same question in respect of

25 photographs D15.

1 A. D16, sir.

2 JUDGE ORIE: D15.

3 A. D15 I've already identified.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's true, but the Bench has not got yet --

5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D16.

7 A. D16 is the same as D15, T-72, and D17 as well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has not yet been provided with D17.

9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put them on the ELMO. We're

13 having them put on the ELMO. Thank you, Madam Registrar. So D16, the

14 question has been answered.

15 Could you please now put on the ELMO the picture D17.

16 A. D17 is consistent with T-72.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] D18.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 A. I'm not familiar with the earlier Soviet-style tank, but this

21 looks like to a T-32, T-34, in that this is a much older version than the

22 T-54, T-55. It's the previous version. It could be Yugoslav version.

23 I'm not sure.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's 30 or 40?

25 A. I beg your pardon?

1 Q. You've stated 32?

2 A. 32, 34.

3 Q. Thank you. D19, please. I'm sorry. D18?

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. D19.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. D19, please.

8 Q. The same question.

9 A. Hold on just a minute. I need to look at this photograph.

10 Q. Take your time. Take your time. Excuse me.

11 A. This has been -- this is slightly modified. We're going back to

12 D18, please, Exhibit D18.

13 Q. Please do. I believe you still have it in front of you.

14 A. This looks more consistent with the T-54, prior to conversion.

15 Q. So this one is therefore a tank you refer to, that is the tank

16 that you refer to when you told us you had seen a position somewhere

17 around Sarajevo. I'm referring to the map that you annotated, that you

18 yourself annotated.

19 A. That's not the tank I saw there, no. It doesn't -- the image

20 coming up on D20 is the one that looks more similar to the tank that I saw

21 at the ...

22 Q. But you have just stated, sir, that it was a T-54?

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I add that the witness testified "T-54 prior to

24 conversion."

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

1 Q. The model T-54 that you saw on location which is mentioned in the

2 map that you yourself annotated, was it a T-54 not-modified model?

3 A. For the Court, and I'm going to state this to clarify this matter,

4 this -- I cannot identify this tank here. It's had some modifications to

5 the outside of it.

6 Q. What number are we talking about?

7 A. We're talking about D18.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we were discussing

10 D19, Mr. President. Am I right?

11 A. D19 is a T-54.

12 Q. D20, please?

13 A. Also a T-54/T-55.

14 Q. The models that we see on D18 and D19 -- no. Sorry. D19 and D20,

15 are they consistent with the types of tanks that you saw and indicated on

16 the map that you annotated?

17 A. D20 definitely, yes.

18 Q. D19?

19 A. I saw it from the side, so yes, I can identify D20 for sure.

20 Q. So D21 would be the same, that is, the same question concerning

21 D21, please?

22 A. [Previous translation continues]

23 Q. Also a T-54 that we talked with?

24 A. T-54, T-55 version, yes.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer, Mr. Ashton, and I will finish with this

1 topic. I have a couple of more questions to ask?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm referring

3 to line 18:04:33 and the following line in my transcript, that is, the

4 transcript of January 9th, 2002, in particular, line 18:04:56.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... because I have

6 the final transcript from the 9th of January, which does not indicate any

7 times. So we have to find it. Could you please --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Mr. President,

9 but since I work abroad during the weekend, I don't always have --

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... sort this out.

11 Could you please give the line, at least quote what it is so that we can

12 try to find it.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have any other

14 reference, but the time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... please quote it

16 so that we can find it. Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The text is as follows: You

18 were talking about the tank that you had seen above Grbavica. You

19 testified as follows: [In English] "The third I actually saw.

20 The tank withdrew after the shooting."

21 [Interpretation] Do you confirm this, sir: If the tank had

22 withdrawn -- I'm sorry, the exact quote is withdrew - it means that you

23 actually saw it withdraw?

24 A. Yes, I saw the tank reverse.

25 Q. My question, consequently, is as follows: Why didn't you take any

1 photos of this tank since it seems that you had come to that area in order

2 to take photographs?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can now indicate where that passage

4 is in the revised transcript. It appears on page 1245.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. IERACE: At line 3.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Concerning the

9 interpretation, it's not that it appears or it seems; it is that the

10 witness had actually said that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What is your question?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Why didn't you take any photographs, since you were able to see

14 the tank and you had actually come to that location in order to take

15 photographs?

16 A. That image was -- I was in the window of the Holiday Inn when this

17 incident occurred, and I had run out of film. I had taken several rolls

18 of film. There was a CBS camera crew, so I was watching through my lens

19 and pointing out to them where the tank was. I was waiting for another

20 photographer to come in to loan me some film, but by then, when she

21 arrived, it was too dark.

22 Q. So are you saying that it was much too dark to see?

23 A. No. It was early -- about 4.00 in the afternoon when the tank

24 came out, but I was there for almost three and a half, four hours. I have

25 images that where the shells were landing and I couldn't find the tank for

1 quite some time and eventually it came out in the clear.

2 Q. Thank you for your answer?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a few more questions and

4 I will be finishing my part of the cross-examination.

5 Q. Sir, am I correct if I say that you have testified before this

6 Chamber that you heard talks about a price consisting of 300 German marks,

7 concerning foreign journalists who were targeted or hit by snipers? I

8 have not used the term "foreign journalists" just "journalist," in

9 respect of each journalist. Is it correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Have you ever heard General Galic issue an

12 order concerning such a price to be given in this sense?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Have you ever heard any officers under the authority of General

15 Galic issue such an order?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. Have you ever heard, sir, General Galic issue any execution order

18 to any officer?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies of the interpreter.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Concerning an iron cross, at any point in time.

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Have you ever heard, sir, any of the officers under the authority

24 of General Galic issue any execution order concerning the so-called fire

25 cross --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Iron cross, I'm sorry.

2 A. No, sir.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Sir, have you ever seen, because you could have seen and not only

5 heard, any officer under the authority of General Galic issue any such

6 order -- any such orders? Yes or no?

7 A. In reference to this iron cross pattern?

8 Q. I said orders, in plural, not only in respect of iron cross but

9 also in respect of prices in cases of attacks on journalists. I was

10 referring to the price?

11 A. Oh, okay. That's different. No, I did not hear of any officer

12 say that there was an order or given an order to shoot journalists for a

13 price. No, I did not.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions

15 for the witness. This concludes my cross-examination of the witness, and

16 my colleague will continue with the cross-examinations, as we previously

17 agreed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one final

19 question at this moment. The question put to you, Mr. Ashton, by

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin whether you heard any officer to give any of such orders

21 or that you have seen such orders to be given, the last part of the

22 question has not been answered yet.

23 A. Not in reference to the killing of the journalist or the "iron

24 cross."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ashton.

1 Ms. Pilipovic, you then may proceed in the cross-examination of

2 Mr. Ashton.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 Q. Mr. Ashton, let me say hello, and I shall be asking you questions

6 from now on. First of all, I would like you to confirm that to the

7 investigators of the Prosecution you gave three statements. The first

8 statement was dated the 25th, 26th, and 27th of June, 1995; the second

9 statement is dated the 29th and 31st of October and 1st of November, 2001;

10 and the third statement was dated the 12th to the 14th of November, 2001.

11 Is that correct? Did you give those statements and did you sign them?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Together with the statement that you gave to the investigator on

14 the 12th, 13th, and 14th of November, and the 29th, 30th, and 31st of

15 October, 2001, and the 1st of November, 2001, you also provided an annex

16 concerning the explanation of photographs that you handed over to the

17 Prosecution. And according to your words, you took those photographs

18 during your stay in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.

20 Q. Likewise, on the 1st of November, 2001, together with the

21 statement which is dated October and up until the 1st of November, 2001,

22 you also included some positions that you annotated according to your

23 recollection, and you indicated those positions on the map that you signed

24 on the 1st of November, 2001, the map which you provided to the

25 Prosecution and which was subsequently provided to the Defence by the

1 Prosecution; is that correct?

2 A. That is correct, ma'am.

3 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that the dates contained in your

4 statements correspond exactly to the incidents which took place during

5 your stay in Sarajevo?

6 A. Some dates correspond exactly, some are within a couple of weeks.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that question, for this

8 reason: That the question invites the witness to confirm, indeed to agree

9 with the Defence, that the dates in the statements, that's plural,

10 correspond to the incidents. The first paragraph in the last of those

11 three statements carries a qualification by the witness to the effect that

12 he at that point has available his journals and that his notes and

13 correspondence, and as a result, in that statement, he's able to give a

14 fuller account, and I quote these words "with any appropriate additions or

15 alterations." Therefore, the question in its phrasing could not embrace

16 the dates of the three statements where there are some alterations and

17 inconsistencies. So that extent, it tends to mislead the witness, and I

18 think it's important that Your Honours are aware of that situation. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. If the first lines just

21 quoted by Mr. Ierace are correct in the third statement. If not, please

22 tell the Court, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not agree with

24 the objection raised by my learned colleague from the Prosecution, because

25 the intention of the Defence was to ask a question concerning each

1 statement, in particular, the statement given on the 12th and the 14th of

2 November, and that is the reason why we wanted to know whether all of

3 those statements were given by the witness and signed by the witness. So

4 my question following that would be as follows: Which of these three

5 statements is more accurate? Since the witness told us that there was

6 some approximation in his dates. And I just wanted to have the witness

7 confirm that the statement that he gave on the 12th and 14th of November

8 was as follows, "not in any one such case was I able to use my notes or

9 correspondence from the times of the events that I am describing and that

10 I'm referring to as my journal. Now I've had the opportunity to review my

11 documents and provide more details."

12 The Defence wanted to have the witness confirm that it is in this

13 statement that the dates are probably more accurate, and I would follow

14 that with further questions, in view of the fact that the witness referred

15 to his journal. I think that the objection of my learned colleague was

16 somewhat premature.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it related to your first question,

18 which made no distinction between any of these statements, and I wonder

19 whether the objection is also valid for the question indicated by

20 Ms. Pilipovic. She would like to put to the witness as a second question.

21 MR. IERACE: I have no difficulty with the second question,

22 Mr. President, but my friend just purported to read out the paragraph, the

23 first paragraph in the last of the three statements. I am concerned that

24 perhaps she does not have an accurate translation, because --

25 THE INTERPRETER: It is the interpreters who were not provided

1 with the appropriate reference, so what you received was just a

2 simultaneous interpretation of the words of the counsel.

3 MR. IERACE: The passage which my friend quoted contained this as

4 the last sentence. This is the last sentence of the first paragraph in

5 the third statement of the witness: "Now I've had the opportunity to

6 review my documents and provide more details." In fact, in the original

7 English version, that last sentence reads: "I have now been able to go

8 through my records and give a fuller account with any appropriate

9 additions or alterations, to the best of my recollection." If my friend

10 does not have that in B/C/S, then she needs to understand that's what the

11 witness said in his last statement. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber noticed the difference in you quotation

13 and the quotation of Ms. Pilipovic.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, there is a difference in the lines quoted by

15 Mr. Ierace and your reference to these lines.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with Your

18 Honour's indulgence, I should like to intervene. The text that I have in

19 front of me was correctly quoted in Serbian by Ms. Pilipovic, and there

20 was -- there is a difference in the text, the text that was quoted in

21 English and the Serbian text. So I'm sure we will once again have a

22 problem with translation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, over one of the breaks to

24 come, verify with the original text spoken -- no, the original text in the

25 statement, because that's what we are talking about. I assume that there

1 have been recordings of these statements as well, Mr. Ierace. Am I

2 correct? I mean, this is not the place and the time to solve this

3 problem, because we have to investigate it, at least the parties have to

4 investigate why there are two different versions of these first lines, and

5 this Chamber would be -- would welcome your explanation as soon as you

6 have discussed the matter and as soon as you have found out.

7 Ms. Pilipovic, since the second question you intended to put to

8 the witness, there is no problem, you may proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me

10 just indicate that I do have the original in front of me, the English

11 translation. The document that I received from the Prosecution, 03041593,

12 I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am not misinterpreting anything

13 that is contained in this statement. It is my objective to establish the

14 truth in this case. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, you told us that in the statement that you gave on the

16 12th and the 14th of November, the portion of which I have just read out

17 to you, you were not able to use -- to refer to your notes which you made

18 at the time of the events and that you had now been able -- been given

19 this opportunity. Would you tell us something more about the way that you

20 kept your notes.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. The

22 question presumes to reflect the evidence given by the witness, and to

23 that end, it says that the witness did not have his notes available to

24 him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: At the time of the statements given.

1 MR. IERACE: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. I think this must be a mistake

3 by Ms. Pilipovic. You may proceed. It's common understanding, I think,

4 in this courtroom that it was the time of giving the statement.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. In the

6 statement which the witness gave on the 12th and the 14th of November, the

7 witness stated, "I have now been able to go through my records." And my

8 question concerned the way in which he kept his notes. When I say "the

9 way," I'm referring both to the way he kept his records technically and to

10 the time framework.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may answer the question, Mr. Ashton.

12 A. Every day, in the evening, I would sit down and I would write down

13 a lengthy four, five, six, ten pages, however many required, to describe

14 the day's events. I would occasionally draw a diagram or a map of

15 something I wanted to explain that was complex. I kept notes of things

16 that I saw individually which were not put into the relevant journal but

17 were in a notebook, reporter's notebook. And each day I would conclude

18 this before I went to bed, and then I would do it again the next day.

19 Certain days when there was heavy shelling and I couldn't go out in the

20 street, I would sit and write about events. When I was in the hospital, I

21 would write about events in detail right after the surgeries were

22 finished. In the event that I took a picture, I wrote a caption to send

23 with the picture back to New York, with specifics. Does that answer the

24 question?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. May I take it, then, that you wrote every evening when you were

2 able to do so, that you would, in the evening, write out, in your own

3 handwriting, the things you had observed during the day, you would make a

4 note of them in the evening in your own handwriting?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you wrote this out by hand, in your own handwriting? That's

7 right, is it?

8 A. Some was in handwriting, some was on a computer at a later time.

9 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the investigators of the

10 Prosecution on the 29th and 30th of October and the 1st of November, on

11 page 4 of that statement, of the B/C/S version, you stated the following:

12 "When I say diary, I mean all notes and letters on a laptop

13 computer and not a diary as in notebook form."

14 Could you tell me what is correct: Was the diary your laptop

15 computer version or do you mean by "diary" what you actually wrote down in

16 a notebook?

17 A. Until September, when I returned from Germany, I was writing

18 handwritten journals in a notebook, after which, when I was working for

19 UNHCR, I was able to write on a computer. Annotations and general notes

20 were taken in a notebook that incidents or little details.

21 Q. As I understood you to say that most of your observations which

22 you took down were taken down on a laptop computer, over a longer period

23 of time, because you said, actually, that it was just until you returned

24 from Germany that you wrote them down in hand, in handwriting. Can we

25 then agree that most of your journal was memorised, if I can put it that

1 way, in the laptop computer? I said "journal" because you said that under

2 "journal" you mean all the notes and letters you kept on the laptop

3 computer.

4 A. No, you cannot, because you refer here to I said journal because

5 you said that under journal you meant, and I quote, unquote, "notes and

6 letters you kept on a laptop computer." No. I wrote notes, I wrote

7 letters to people, in handwriting. I executed a journal in handwriting

8 for the first several months until September, at which time I wrote from

9 then on on a computer, but I still did some handwritten notes as well.

10 Q. I should like to clarify the matter of your journal. When I --

11 when you said "journal," you say to refer to my notes and correspondence

12 which I kept on my laptop." So when you say "journal," you mean the notes

13 and correspondence kept on your laptop computer; is that right?

14 A. That's partially correct, it's partially wrong. I'm also

15 referring to the journals, handwritten journals that I kept when I first

16 arrived in Sarajevo through the time that I returned in September, as well

17 as what I put on the computer later on, a journal being information that I

18 recorded, whether by hand or by computer, it's a journal of my daily

19 events, what I saw.

20 Q. Most of your observations during your stay in Sarajevo were noted

21 where? In the laptop computer or the journal in the notebook?

22 A. Much of it was in -- let me see if I can understand your question

23 correctly here. My observations were equal and both. I had extensive

24 writing in the journals. I had more time to write, so I had a lot more

25 detail in the beginning, as I was doing medical work there, I had less

1 time to write, and the computer journal was not as extensive, I would say,

2 as the earlier journals written by hand.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In 1995, when you gave your statement to the investigators of the

6 Tribunal, you said that you did not have access to all portions of the

7 journal that you kept during your stay in Bosnia, and six years later you

8 told the investigators the following: That you now do possess your notes.

9 Could you tell us the reason why you were not able, for six years, to come

10 into possession of the notes you kept, both in the laptop and in the

11 notebook? Why was this?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are saying that for six years the

13 witness was not able to come into the possession of the notes he kept. As

14 far as I understand is that you refer to his first statement six years

15 ago, that he had not available to him these notes or not full notes

16 available to him, and that six years later he said that he had them

17 available to him. I did not hear the witness say that it took him six

18 years to collect his notes. Could you please either indicate a source for

19 not having been able for six years to recover his notes, or rephrase your

20 question, please.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness statement

22 dated the 12th to the 14th of November, that is to say, none of those

23 cases when statements were given, I was not able to use my notes and

24 correspondence or letters. That's what the witness says in that

25 statement. And my question is that if we look at the date that the first

1 statement was given and in October, he said that in none of those cases

2 was he able to use his notes, miscellaneous notes. I can rephrase the

3 question and ask him the following.

4 Q. Why, what was the reason that in this case, in 1995, and in

5 October 2001 he was not able to use his notes?

6 A. The answer to the question that you're asking, Ms. Pilipovic, is

7 the fact that I did have access to many of the notes all along, which I've

8 provided prior to that date. However, there were other notes that I had

9 sent to the United States. I had sent to other friends, copies, and I had

10 access to those only later on. I had to track people down and get some

11 help to recover them. The notes have always been available.

12 Q. Are you in possession of those notes today?

13 A. No, I'm not.

14 Q. When I mean "now," I don't mean here in the courtroom, when I say

15 "today," I don't mean in the courtroom, but at home. Do you have the

16 originals at home?

17 A. Yes, ma'am, I do have.

18 Q. Thank you. May we agree that the statement you made on the 12th

19 and 14th of November, 2001, in view of the fact that you used your journal

20 and your notes, is the most precise version with respect to date and with

21 respect to your recollections of the time that you were in Sarajevo, if we

22 compare it to the statement made a month before and the statement made in

23 1995?

24 A. Specific reference to certain dates of certain particular events,

25 yes, that is correct.

1 Q. You told us that you arrived in Sarajevo on the 5th of July, 1992,

2 for two days, for a two-day stay. Is that correct?

3 A. My arrival was actually on the 6th, I believe.

4 Q. Well, let's accept that it was the 6th, then, the 6th of July,

5 1992. How frequently before that 6th of July, 1992, did you travel to

6 Sarajevo?

7 A. I had never been before that date.

8 Q. How far were you acquainted with the town of Sarajevo and its

9 environs when you arrived on that 6th of July? How well did you know it?

10 A. I knew very little other than what I had seen in media coverage of

11 the Olympics, which did not cover the city of Sarajevo itself but the

12 surroundings, and I was briefed by UNHCR in Zagreb, and I did a little

13 reading, but I really had no detailed knowledge of Sarajevo.

14 Q. In the statement you made on the 12th and 14th of November, you

15 said that from the 5th of July, and I'm quoting page 2 of that statement

16 of yours, "From the 5th of July to the 27th of September, 1992, I was an

17 independent photographer engaged by myself, but I sent the films to Time

18 Magazine."

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that should be the 28th of

20 September.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please check that, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I said the 28th of September.

23 From the 5th of July, to the 28th of September, 2000. Perhaps the

24 interpreters didn't hear me, but I'm reading from the statement in B/C/S.

25 So from the 5th of July to the 28th of September, 1992.

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]

2 A. That is correct.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. You told us that in the space of two days, you received papers,

7 you were accredited as a freelance photographer, self-employed freelance

8 photographic journalist. Now, who allowed you to make films in Sarajevo

9 who gave you the papers to do so?

10 A. Well, I didn't state in two days what -- at least, if I did, it

11 would have been in Zagreb prior to coming to Sarajevo. What I did was

12 come to Zagreb first. It was there I was briefed by UNHCR and sent to

13 UNPROFOR to get my credentials. I did have a registered business called

14 International Images in New York city. It's a photo agency that belonged

15 to me, and I applied for my credentials under my images. I provided my

16 New York press credentials, my New York city police credentials, and I was

17 given the UNPROFOR press credentials, as was routine for all journalists

18 coming in and out of Bosnia or Croatia to work with the UN system.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've just had pointed out to me that

20 the transcript, at line 14:12:13:34 refers to my New York city police

21 credentials. That should be press credentials.

22 THE WITNESS: Correction. I did state police credentials.

23 MR. IERACE: I withdraw that.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Up until the 28th of September, that means you were an independent

1 photojournalist, self-employed freelance photojournalist, as you say, a

2 self-employed freelance journalist, photojournalist, and that you sent

3 your films to Time magazine; is that correct?

4 A. That is correct. I was an employee of my company.

5 Q. Is it also correct that you sent your films to Time magazine?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Is it correct that throughout your stay in Sarajevo, you had your

8 Nikon camera with you all the time?

9 A. I had my Nikon camera with me in Sarajevo the entire time I was

10 there, in and out, but I did not have it with me at all times. There were

11 certain areas I went to that I was afraid to take it to.

12 Q. Will you tell us what places you visited where you weren't allowed

13 to take your camera with you?

14 A. I was told specifically by Colonel Indic not to bring a camera

15 into his area and photograph anything except passing in and out through

16 the -- to Central Bosnia. That was acceptable, but not to photograph any

17 military events.

18 Q. When did you meet Colonel Indic for the first time? Where and

19 when, actually?

20 A. The first time I met him at Sarajevo airport, in September.

21 Q. Could you tell us what year and could you give us a closer date

22 for September?

23 A. Yes. I'm sorry. It was September 1992. It was somewhere in the

24 week of the 15th, in that area, September 1992.

25 Q. As far as I understand, up until the 15th of September, until you

1 had met Colonel Indic, you always had your camera with you. Is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. You have also said that in the Presidency, you went to the

5 Presidency every day and that it was generally early in the morning, at

6 around 8.00. Is it correct when you say that it was every day? Is that

7 right?

8 A. Not every day. There was a press conference in the mornings there

9 for journalists, and I occasionally did not go.

10 Q. So you didn't always go. And when you went to the UNPROFOR

11 building, I understand that it was in the PTT building. Who did you

12 contact in the PTT building concerning UNPROFOR?

13 A. At first, Fabrizio Hothchild, who was the UNHCR officer there, who

14 was the UNHCR representative, but I had other contacts in UNHCR too that I

15 contacted, and also World Food Programme and other UN agencies working

16 there.

17 Q. You said that on the -- you remained until -- in the Holiday Inn

18 until the 28th of September. I accept the fact that from the 2nd of

19 August to the 22nd of August you were not in Sarajevo but you were

20 undergoing treatment. Is that correct?

21 A. The 2nd of August is when I left Sarajevo; that's correct.

22 Q. When did you return? You said you returned on the 22nd of August?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. In your statement, in all three statements, the first, second, and

25 third, you explained an incident that took place on the 14th of July, when

1 you were crossing the street from the Holiday Inn. Do you remember the

2 incident I'm talking about?

3 A. Yes, I remember it very clearly.

4 Q. In your first statement, the one you gave in 1995, you said that

5 sniper fire was opened on an old woman and a girl. That is on page 2 of

6 your statement in the B/C/S version and it is paragraph 5, line 3. And

7 you said that she was being fired on from across the river towards Mount

8 Trebevic. Is that correct?

9 A. That is correct, ma'am.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to have

11 the witness shown a map, the map which my learned colleagues gave to the

12 witness and the witness used. It is number 3644, in which he drew in the

13 positions when asked by my learned friend to do so.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is this 3644 or 3645, as I have Prosecution

15 Exhibit -- not -- it's still a document, not yet tendered in evidence.

16 3645, that's the marked map. Is that the map you mean?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 3644, Your Honour.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Did you mean 3644.AA?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 44, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right, yes. It is

22 the map that we decided would be shown to every witness, and I think that

23 this present witness marked some positions on that particular map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I should like to ask the camera to zoom in on the part that you

3 were marking so that we can have a better view.

4 Will you indicate the street the incident took place on. Let's

5 decide what marker pen, what colour marker pen we're going to use to mark

6 this in for Defence, in response to Defence questions.

7 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Black was what I saw that the witness used on the

9 screen.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Thank

11 you. I don't know whether black would be visible enough, because the map

12 is black. Perhaps another colour would be better.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we had a general decision that black would

14 be the colour of the Defence while red would be the colour of the ... so

15 it becomes unclear, we'll see how to solve it, but let's start with black.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. On the map, draw in -- mark in the street where the incident took

18 place, please.

19 A. This street here that I just marked. Should I put a number there

20 for you?

21 Q. Yes, and could you tell me what street that is, the name of the

22 street, if you know it? If not, never mind?

23 JUDGE ORIE: First put the number in it. I don't know what number

24 we were at at this map, but black "1" would do, because I think it's the

25 first black marking on the map.

1 THE WITNESS: To avoid confusion, I was going to suggest if Your

2 Honour might, D1 for the Defence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or A, B, C. I don't know whether there are any

4 letters on it. Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 JUDGE ORIE: So that's marked D1 now. Yes.

7 I think the next question was the name of the street, Mr. Ashton.

8 A. Zmaja Od Bosna, I believe.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you happen to know the name of the street where the incident

11 took place?

12 A. Yes. It was Zmaja Od Bosna or I guess it's Mese Selimovica.

13 Q. Mese Selimovica, Osma Odbonna.

14 A. Osma Odbonna. It depends on the map. I think they changed the

15 name. I'm not sure. This was 1992.

16 Q. As far as I understand, this was in front of the Holiday Inn, and

17 the street's name was Zmaja Od Bosna?

18 A. It was the angle street behind the Holiday Inn.

19 Q. So it was not in Zmaja Od Bosna Street but some other street which

20 exits into the Zmaja Od Bosna Street?

21 A. I don't recall exactly the streets, because it's been many years

22 since I knew the streets there, and I never memorised all the streets.

23 Q. Could you indicate Trebevic on the map, please, and from what part

24 of Trebevic did the sniper shooting come from towards that street?

25 A. Trebevic is in -- Trebevic is in this area up here.

1 JUDGE ORIE: We can't see your hand on the screen, so please use

2 the ELMO in such a way that we also can follow the hand of the witness

3 indicating where Trebevic would have been. Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: This area here is where Trebevic is. Here's the

5 street that was shot at down here. And you want me to indicate exactly

6 what?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I apologise. You said the street which was fired at. Could you

9 clarify that? That's the street. We see the street. And at what point

10 was the firing done from Mount Trebevic? What point on Mount Trebevic did

11 the firing come from?

12 A. It was above the area of the Jewish cemetery but up from very high

13 angle from the lower hill, from this area here. You could see the tracers

14 coming down every third, fourth shot was a tracer shot.

15 Q. Could you mark that spot, please. May I assist you? Have you

16 marked the spot?

17 A. No. I can only give you the general area, because I don't know

18 exactly where, by this map. I would have to look at an image, a visual

19 image. This area here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please mark that "D2" so that

21 we'll ...

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Would you read out what it says in the circle, the two digits?

24 They're not very visible. The words. I see that it says "Colina Kapa,

25 Bistrik Kula." Is that correct?

1 A. Bistrik Kula. You're correct, ma'am.

2 Q. And does it say Colina Kapa, 966?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. It does. It says Colina Kapa, does it?

5 A. Yes, ma'am.

6 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that from this portion, this

7 section, the one that says Colina Kapa and the circle you drew around this

8 area, that the bullet came from that area?

9 A. No. Actually, it was higher up. It was closer to the road area.

10 I'm going to redraw that circle, if you don't mind.

11 Q. You may. I have nothing against that.

12 A. This will be D2 and this will be deleted.

13 Q. As far as I can see, you have circled the Bogusavac area.

14 A. That is correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I have failed to indicate to you that

16 we would have a break soon a couple of minutes ago and invite you to find

17 a proper moment to stop. My apologies for that. Would this be a point to

18 have the break or not? Otherwise the last portion would be rather short.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I suggest that we have a short break in order

21 to use our time as good as possible and start at 5 minutes to 12.00 -- to

22 1.00. I'm mistaken. We are adjourned until 5 to 1.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher has left the courtroom in order to bring in

1 Mr. Ashton, I suppose.

2 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, on the map, you indicated the location where Bogusavac

5 can be found, together with Bistrik Kula and Colina Kappa, D1 and D2.

6 Would you show me on the map where the cable car is.

7 A. Wait, please. The cable car is in this area here.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that Bistrik Kula is situated at the

9 height of 1.004 metres, Bogusavac, 1.164, and Colina Kapa, 966?

10 A. I cannot read the heights on this map. If I had a clearer map to

11 look at, that would be helpful.

12 Q. Would you agree with me that those positions are situated on an

13 altitude of approximately 1.000 metres?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You told us that, as far as you are aware, those were the

16 positions of the army of Republika Srpska, that is, Bistrik Kula and

17 Vidikovac.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that in the vicinity of

20 those positions were the positions of the army of BH?

21 A. Only what was pointed out to me as the front line from a Serb

22 position. I want to make note here that there was also another position

23 where sniping came down into that same street, if I could make a circle.

24 Q. I am now asking you only about this particular incident, and I

25 would like to know whether you have any knowledge as to the fact that the

1 positions of the BH army were in the vicinity.

2 A. No, I did not know exactly where their line was.

3 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you come to know at a later

4 point in time where the positions of the BH army were and did you ever

5 visit the positions of the BH army in that area?

6 A. No, I never visited the BH army, just the forces of Republika

7 Srpska.

8 Q. You're saying you never visited the BH army. Are you referring to

9 the area that I'm now asking you about or generally speaking, that you

10 never, ever visited the positions of the BH army?

11 A. Just in the area that you're speaking about now.

12 Q. I can therefore conclude that you did visit BH army positions in

13 some other areas of Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. I shall later on go back to that question, but now let us try to

16 clarify where exactly this area was where this incident took place. Did

17 you see the bullets coming in, or is it that you heard the shots being

18 fired?

19 A. First I heard the shots being fired and then I saw the shots

20 coming down in the form of tracers.

21 Q. How far were you from that spot where this old lady and a girl

22 were shot at?

23 A. I was approximately 20 metres away.

24 Q. Did you see the point of impact, that is, where the bullet struck?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. With respect to the place where you were, could you explain to us

2 where those bullets hit?

3 A. They were at a 45-degree angle to me. I was at the corner of the

4 Holiday Inn, facing that angled street. The bullets came down across in

5 front of me and hit the street and ricochetted up.

6 Q. What is the distance between the place, that is, the location from

7 which the fire was opened, the area which you circled, Bogusavac, and the

8 point at which the bullet actually struck? What is the distance between

9 these two locations, please?

10 A. Approximately from the area of the circles, 1.500 metres,

11 approximately. I have no exact ...

12 Q. Do you know what kind of sniper rifles the army of Republika

13 Srpska had?

14 A. Only those which I saw at a later time.

15 Q. Would you please tell us what sniper rifles we're talking about.

16 A. I saw a 12.7 millimetre rifle in this area up here where I've

17 circled, and another one lower down, in another area. As far as sniper

18 rifles, I saw other types as well, 7.62.

19 Q. Do you know what the range is of the sniper rifles 7.62?

20 A. Approximately 1.000 metres, depending on the rifle. If it's an

21 assault rifle, it's less.

22 Q. Would you agree with me if I tell you that the shooting from 7.62

23 is best achieved at the distance up to 400 metres?

24 A. If you're using an M-76 sniper rifle, you can get a lot better --

25 a lot more accurate than that. In the case of Republika Srpska, I saw two

1 of those, with high-velocity scopes.

2 Q. According to you, what would be the highest range of 7.62?

3 A. I would say a thousand metres.

4 Q. Do you know what kind of sniper rifle was being used at that time?

5 A. I know it was a larger-calibre round of the 12.7 or larger round.

6 Q. How is it that you know that?

7 A. Because the shells were very large, the impact was much larger

8 than a 7.62, and when they hit the wall, they did a lot of damage when

9 they ricochetted up.

10 Q. So it is on the basis of that that you are concluding that the

11 sniper rifle that was used was not 7.62?

12 A. That is correct. There was a very loud sound also associated with

13 the rifle, much louder than a 7.62 weapon.

14 Q. In view of your knowledge of sniper rifles, can you tell the

15 difference between the fire opened from a sniper rifle and an ordinary

16 rifle?

17 A. It depends on the methodology of the shooting.

18 Q. Would you explain that to us, what exactly do you mean by that,

19 when it comes to the methodology?

20 A. A sniper targets generally with one shot at a time.

21 Q. What about ordinary rifle fire?

22 A. Well, if you were using an ordinary rifle from any distance, you

23 would fire several rounds, because if you were trying to shoot someone

24 without proper sighting or without the proper equipment, you would have to

25 expend several rounds possibly for you to get the person on the first

1 round. And that wasn't always the case. Several times a day we would

2 have one shot fired and a shot again, and occasionally there were shots

3 fired in staccato.

4 Q. If, according to you, the bullet came at an angle of 45 degrees,

5 as you testified, in that situation, could one establish where the bullet

6 has come from and in what way?

7 A. Only if you were on the ground and looking back at the shooter.

8 You could establish a general area of where the shooter was, but more by

9 height. Frequently you would see bullets come down from a higher altitude

10 on the hills above Sarajevo. Sometimes you would see them come from

11 between buildings in the city.

12 Q. So you did not actually see the direction from which the bullet

13 had come?

14 A. I saw the direction, the area it came from. Yes, I could see

15 that, because the trace started as soon as it came out of the hill.

16 Q. You knew what that hill was at that time?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. Well, you stated that it had come from the Mount Trebevic. Later

19 on you specified and said that it was from the location called Bogusavac.

20 It is on the basis of which information that you were able to reach such a

21 conclusion?

22 A. When the Canadians arrived with an anti-sniper team, they pointed

23 it out to me. I pointed them to the general direction I thought the fire

24 had come from, because they arrived after the shooting had stopped. Then

25 the shooting began again from that position and the Canadians knew exactly

1 where it was, and I spoke with them after that about the position.

2 Q. As far as I understand you, after the incident happened, the

3 location was visited by Canadians. When you say "Canadians," who are you

4 referring to?

5 A. Canadian United Nations Protection Force, UNPROFOR. They came to

6 the location where the bullets were hitting on the street and placed an

7 APC in place.

8 Q. How soon did they arrive?

9 A. I'd say within 15 minutes, 20 minutes, somewhere in that time

10 area, time frame.

11 Q. On that occasion, did they make any notes? Did they compile a

12 report or take photographs of the location, or did they just talk to you?

13 A. I don't know if they made an incident report or not. When their

14 vehicle was hit, I'm sure they made an incident report of that. They

15 would have to. It's required by their military commanders.

16 Q. So you do not have any specific knowledge that any incident report

17 was eventually made of this incident and in what way the incident

18 occurred?

19 A. No, ma'am.

20 Q. You testified that you had come close to the old lady. Is that

21 correct, that you went up to her?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. When she froze in the street, I went up to

23 her.

24 Q. What happened to the girl?

25 A. She ran to the corner.

1 Q. On that occasion, did you take any pictures of the location where

2 the incident happened?

3 A. No, I didn't. It happened too fast.

4 Q. Did you take any pictures of the spot where, according to you, the

5 bullets hit the street?

6 A. Yes. I have photographs of that area.

7 Q. And you do have those photographs?

8 A. Yes, I have those photographs. There are existing images of that

9 intersection, that area.

10 Q. Do the photographs show the spot that the bullets hit?

11 A. No, they do not.

12 Q. Later on, did you take those photographs to the Canadians, as you

13 call them?

14 A. No. The only UN organisation that ever saw copies of my

15 photograph was UNHCR. I never showed pictures to the military forces that

16 were there under UNPROFOR.

17 Q. Did you show any -- did you report the incident to any of the

18 authorities, in view of the fact that you said that the Canadians made no

19 incidence report?

20 A. I briefly mentioned it to the G4 commander sector in Sarajevo with

21 the French battalion, yes and to UNHCR.

22 Q. When you say "briefly mentioned," does that mean that you told

23 them orally or did you write a report of any kind?

24 A. I told them orally that there had been a sniping incident in that

25 behind the Holiday Inn.

1 Q. The old woman who you say was shot at, where was she injured?

2 What spot on her body, or what spot?

3 A. She was in a state of shock.

4 Q. Can we agree that the bullets which you say came from the

5 Bogusavac direction hit the pavement and ricochetted?

6 A. Yes. They came down and ricochetted back upwards.

7 Q. At what distance was this in comparison to the old woman and the

8 girl? How far away were they from the spot where the bullets hit the

9 pavement?

10 A. I didn't see the first bullet actually hit. I saw the second

11 bullet hit right by her feet, maybe one metre past her, on the ground by

12 her feet.

13 Q. What time of day was it?

14 A. It was in the morning.

15 Q. When did the Canadians arrive? You said after 15 minutes, I

16 believe.

17 A. Between 15, maybe 20 minutes later, if I recall correctly.

18 Q. Near the Holiday Inn, where you were staying, was there any kind

19 of military checkpoint or military installation?

20 A. Not that I saw, but the front lines were not too far away, over by

21 the old congress building on the other side, by the Miljacka River, behind

22 the museum, which is right across the street from the Holiday Inn.

23 Q. Did you tour the lines?

24 A. I was never able to go to that location. It was forbidden for

25 anybody to go in there, any foreigners or journalists or humanitarians

1 were not allowed in that particular area.

2 Q. How do you know that the lines were there? Did you hear that or

3 did you see it for yourself?

4 A. I met some Bosnian soldiers who had told me about their

5 experiences there. They worked in that area.

6 Q. So we can conclude that that was where the positions of the BH

7 army were, in that area, the soldiers of the BH army; is that right?

8 A. Yes, about 100 metres away.

9 Q. When you say "about a hundred metres away," referring to their

10 positions, a hundred metres from what?

11 A. 100 metres from the front side of the Holiday Inn, about 200

12 metres from where the incident occurred that we're referring to in

13 these -- with the old woman and the girl.

14 Q. May I take it that the front line was at that point of 100 metres

15 away?

16 A. From the front of the Holiday Inn, yes.

17 Q. What do you mean and how do you -- what is your definition of the

18 front line? What do you mean had you say "front"?

19 A. As it was described to me and as I saw it eventually, the front

20 line was the confrontation line dividing Republika Srpska forces and

21 Bosnian forces. In some places it was only 25 metres apart; in other

22 places there was maybe 100, 200, 300 metres in areas I never went to, but

23 I heard there was some distance between some of the lines. But the

24 Bosnians had a defensive line all the way around the city. United Nations

25 made a map of this and plotted any changes in that front line, whether

1 Serb advancements or Bosnian advancements or retreats.

2 Q. If I understand you correctly, the front line is the line between

3 the two warring parties, so we have two warring parties, we have the BH

4 army, and we have the army of Republika Srpska. Those are the two

5 parties. Now, on the map, in relation to the Holiday Inn, would you mark

6 the positions of the BH army and the positions of the army of Republika

7 Srpska. You say the distance was a hundred metres from Holiday Inn.

8 A. I note you're working with the larger map that I was working with

9 the other day. Can I have the larger map to point that out on?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the witness might mean the map

11 that he marked, which is not larger, but a larger-scale map.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to ask

14 the witness to mark the markings in this map, because we're going to use

15 that map later on in evidence, so this would avoid a misunderstanding.

16 Both the Prosecution and the Defence will be using that particular map.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course both maps are there to be

18 tendered into evidence, but if the Defence prefers to have the markings on

19 this map. But if the witness has any difficulty in marking, then he may

20 tell us, so that we can see whether the parties or the Chamber can assist

21 him.

22 THE WITNESS: In fact, on this copy, it's already marked. The

23 front line is there. Do you have the same copy?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't. I haven't got that

25 copy.

1 Q. But I should like to ask you if you could -- if we could zoom in

2 on the screen so we can see your markings better.

3 A. Okay. If you could come down to here, please, closer in. Where

4 these Xes are -- stop - Xs are, here's the Holiday Inn I'm pointing to

5 now and where these Xs are was the actual line on the Serb side on that

6 side of the river and on the Bosnian side, on this side of the river in

7 this line of buildings here.

8 Q. Can you mark -- can you put a line at the positions of the BH

9 army, draw a line, please, compared to the positions that you marked for

10 the army of Republika Srpska. You have marked in the positions of the

11 Republika Srpska army. Would you now indicate to us and mark the BH army

12 positions.

13 A. Yes, ma'am. If it's okay with you, I'll mark them in black Xs

14 and I'll make that Exhibit D2.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the marking, we are at D3, as far as I

16 remember.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you just, let's say, use a dotted line. That will

19 be clear enough, even without any numbering of it.

20 A. Can you see that dotted line?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm able to see it.

22 A. [Marks] D3, we said, sir?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said it was not necessary, but since you

24 started, D3.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. So taking the position from the Holiday Inn, we see that the

2 confrontation line is here, between the two warring parties, and that it

3 is 100 metres away from the Holiday Inn. Is that right? Do we agree on

4 that? That is, 100 to 150 metres, as you said. The lines were about 150

5 metres, stretched along -- stretching along the Miljacka River. Do you

6 agree with that description?

7 A. Yes, keeping many mind I did not actually see that front line, but

8 that's approximately the area.

9 Q. In respect to the positions, the BH army positions, behind them

10 were residential buildings; is that right? Would you show us the -- point

11 the Holiday Inn to us once again, please. Point the Holiday Inn out to

12 us, please.

13 A. There's the Holiday Inn. The nearest residential buildings I saw

14 were right here, these two buildings back here.

15 Q. Do you know what those two buildings were?

16 A. Yes. They were high apartment building, connected. There were

17 two buildings there and these were apartment buildings back here as well.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully suggest that

19 those buildings be marked in some way so that it becomes apparent for

20 those who might read the transcript later which buildings were indicated.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Ashton.

22 A. D4 were all apartment buildings, those buildings there. They were

23 occupied by civilians.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know whether there were any business buildings there, and

1 if so, could you mark them. What about the UNIS building, was that, the

2 UNIS company building?

3 A. That's over here. And these, the museum was directly across the

4 street from the Holiday Inn, of course. Down here was the university

5 complex. This was an office building, but I don't know what it was, and

6 then the congress tower was here.

7 Q. In this area where you pointed out the office blocks and the

8 apartment blocks, could you tell us whether there was a barracks there,

9 and if so, where?

10 A. The barracks is as you see right here, Tito barracks.

11 Q. Could you mark the barracks, please.

12 A. [Marks]

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's marked D5, Tito barracks.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you happen to visit the barracks

16 at all?

17 A. Unfortunately, yes. I was taken to the barracks by the Bosnian

18 army once, for questioning.

19 Q. From your answer, we are able to conclude that the Bosnian army

20 was located in those barracks.

21 A. The Bosnian army was located in those barracks, and there was also

22 an UNPROFOR contained in the barracks. The Ukranians took over the north

23 end -- the east end was taken over by the Ukranian battalion, the Bosnians

24 were in these couple of buildings right here. The French before also took

25 over this area back in here, behind.

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again I'd ask that the -- part of the

2 Tito barracks that were occupied by the Bosnian troops be indicated on the

3 map.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Ashton.

5 THE WITNESS: D6.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You state that you were taken there for questioning and that you

8 were taken there by the army of Bosnian Serbs. How long did you spend in

9 the building when you were questioned?

10 A. Negative. I did not state that I was taken there by the Bosnian

11 Serbs. I was taken by the Bosnian army. Maybe that was an incorrect --

12 maybe a mis --

13 Q. You said the Bosnian soldiers, I believe.

14 A. Yes. I meant the Bosnian army.

15 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's what I meant too. Perhaps I misspoke.

16 You said, "The Bosnian soldiers took me to the barracks." Now, how long

17 did you stay at the barracks?

18 A. About one hour.

19 Q. May we then take it that in this part of the barracks where the

20 Bosnian army was located, that it was the headquarters of the Bosnian army

21 and that it was a military target? What would you say, according to you?

22 A. In all honesty, Ms. Pilipovic, I cannot say -- I cannot say it was

23 a target. However, I was taken there to an office of an officer to be

24 questioned, and I did not see any indication it was a headquarters, but I

25 didn't see any indication it was not either.

1 Q. But I think we agree that you were questioned by an officer. Was

2 he a military officer, an army officer?

3 A. Yes, ma'am. He was a uniformed Bosnian army officer.

4 Q. When you entered the building, was security provided for the

5 building by a service, that is to say, were there uniformed guards

6 providing security for the building?

7 A. There were soldiers in the hallway when I came into the building

8 and there was one soldier outside, yes.

9 Q. In front of the entrance to the building?

10 A. He was standing on the steps at the entrance of the building.

11 Q. Thank you. May I just go back for a moment to that second half of

12 the image, that is to say, the place you indicated. Could we move down

13 the map a bit. Further down, where it says "Grbavica." Further down to

14 "Grbavica." We agreed that that was where the front lines were, the

15 confrontation line, and that the distance was 100 metres between them.

16 You explained which buildings existed. Now, could you tell us, in this

17 area here, which buildings existed. What were the buildings in this area

18 here where it says "Grbavica," in the area where it says "Grbavica."

19 Further down, where it says "Grbavica."

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification at this moment?

21 In the translation it says that there was a hundred metres between the

22 lines of the respective forces. I have in my mind that the witness said

23 that the line was both sides of the river and approximately 100 metres

24 from the Holiday Inn hotel. I don't know whether I'm mistaken or not, but

25 could the witness just clarify this, whether there was a hundred metres

1 between the lines or -- Mr. Ashton.

2 A. My knowledge was only from information provided in conversations I

3 had with people. It was approximately 20 to 25, sometimes 30 metres in

4 that general area along that line. That line on the Bosnian side, the

5 Bosnian line itself was physically 100, 150 metres from the Holiday Inn.

6 Does that clarify the question, sir?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that clarifies that the summary which was

8 contained in the question does not correspond with the answer given by you

9 earlier.

10 Ms. Pilipovic, would you please see whether this urges you put any

11 other questions or to rephrase your question.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness,

13 looking at this section, where the front lines were. He explained to us

14 what he meant by the front lines and he marked in the positions of one

15 side and the positions of the other side. I don't think that is

16 contested. The Xs, or crosses, as far as I was able to understand, notes

17 the positions of the army of Republika Srpska and the other black line was

18 the BH army positions. And the witness has just indicated and marked in

19 the apartment blocks in that area, the residential buildings. Now my

20 question is: What residential buildings existed around where it says

21 "Grbavica," which means below the positions marked as the positions of

22 the Bosnian Serb army.

23 A. I understand the question. Okay. To my knowledge, I didn't go

24 into this area, but apparently to the -- this area where I am now, where

25 I'm pointing to now, there were a few apartment buildings next to the

1 university area here, in that area. I don't know how many civilians lived

2 in that -- or how many people lived in that area.

3 Q. Sir, I asked you about the area further down, where it says

4 "Grbavica." What apartment blocks or residential buildings existed

5 there, if there were any, and what kind? Lower down?

6 A. You mean over in this side of the line, is that what you're

7 referring to, ma'am?

8 Q. Yes, on that side of the line, further down?

9 A. Yes. Okay. There were several apartment buildings along here,

10 and two-, three-storey houses in the area as well, concrete blocks.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again that evidence will not make much

12 sense in the transcript. Could I respectfully suggest that it at least be

13 characterised in this way, that the witness has indicated some black

14 rectangles which appear on the map immediately below the line of purple

15 crosses and above the word "Grbavica," which appears printed on the map

16 and which has a purple circle cutting through the word. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that clarifies at least what the

18 witness has pointed out.

19 Please, Ms. Pilipovic, as far as possible, would you please always

20 ask the witness to mark on the map what he says, although I'm aware that

21 we might end up with a rather complicated map at the end. This also

22 brings me -- it's a quarter to 2.00 now --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness understood my

24 question, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was to mark in, in

2 the section where it says "Grbavica," which buildings existed and what

3 kind of buildings they were, if he's able to tell us.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please do so, Mr. Ashton, and then

5 we'll have a break, because the courtroom will be needed to be prepared

6 for the afternoon session.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes. And also, Your Honour, it would help if I had

8 a finer-point black pen.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine. If you would just do this

10 marking.

11 THE WITNESS: D7 is an area which I visited, which is a

12 residential area --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: -- with military activity in it. I went to those

15 front

16 lines. There was quite a bit of military materiel mixed in.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think we'll have to stop at this

18 moment. I indicated to the parties that we'll not sit tomorrow. We will

19 be in courtroom 3 --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- on Wednesday and we'll start at 9.00 in the

22 morning, and we'll adjourn until then. Would you please -- Mr. Usher,

23 could you please get the marked original back so that it's in the hands of

24 the registrar. As far as I'm aware, as of this moment we have still some

25 documents that have to be tendered into evidence, and it's the

1 black-and-white map, 3644, which will now be returned to the Registry.

2 We'll have -- that's a "P" document. We have P3641 still to be tendered.

3 That's a bundle of photos. We have P3645 and 3645-1, which is a premarked

4 map. And then as far as Defence exhibits are concerned, we have D12 still

5 to be tendered, a report of a statement given by Roy Thomas, and photos of

6 military equipment, D13 up until D21, D21 included.

7 So we'll stay in recess until Wednesday morning, 9.00.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

10 January 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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