1 Monday, 14 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we ended last Friday during the
10 cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Ashton. Would you be prepared to
11 proceed? I see that Ms. Pilipovic is standing. Is there anything you
12 would like to --
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're not receiving
14 the B/C/S interpretation on the sixth channel, so I wasn't able to hear
15 you just said.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The problem with the B/C/S interpretation is caused
17 by any technical problem or the absence of interpreters? I can't see
18 through the dark windows.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are present.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll ask the usher to call in the witness and
23 you may proceed in the cross-examination of Mr. Ashton.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we bring
25 in the witness, I should like to make two remarks concerning the problem
1 of interpretation, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Go ahead, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
4 Mr. President. The first of my remarks will be presented with my
5 apologies, because you were able to see in the transcript, in the English
6 transcript yesterday -- I'm not giving you the references because it's not
7 that important, but you were able to see that I was rephrasing a question,
8 or rather, asking the question once again concerning the missiles, but I
9 was actually referring to mortar shells, and the logical interpretation
10 should have been a shell instead of "missile." Every time I will be
11 referring to the shelling of Sarajevo, I won't be using the word
12 "missile." That is one of the remarks that I wanted to make.
13 The other one being something that you, Your Honour, has
14 mentioned. It is something that I paid attention to over the weekend.
15 There seems to have been a problem in the interpretation. I was not
16 referring to the day after but to something else. I will -- I hope that
17 we will be able to clarify the issue today during the cross-examination of
18 the witness.
19 I don't have any other remarks to make, and otherwise I'm ready to
20 proceed with my cross-examination.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Usher, would you please bring in
22 Mr. Ashton.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Ashton.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony.
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
4 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Good morning, Mr. Ashton.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Let me continue where we left off last time by asking you the
10 following question: Is it true that you were interviewed on the 29th,
11 30th, and 31st of October, 2001, also on the 1st of November, 2001, then
12 the 12th, the 13th, and the 14th of November, 2001, concerning previous
13 incidents that you were able to experience in Sarajevo?
14 A. Those are the dates of the interview, yes, sir.
15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Is it true that you signed each of the
16 pages -- each page of your written statement?
17 A. Yes, I signed the pages of my statement.
18 Q. When you were introduced to the person who -- I'm sorry. When you
19 were presenting the facts about these incidents to the person who
20 interviewed you, did you present those facts in a chronological order,
21 generally speaking?
22 A. Generally speaking, yes.
23 Q. Thank you for your answer. So in principle, we can conclude that
24 the incidents were presented according to a chronological order?
25 A. No, because there were some incidents that I recall that fell into
1 place outside the chronological order.
2 Q. Is that your answer?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like
5 the written statement of the witness to be shown to him.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We can actually present to him the whole statement or
7 parts of it?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that at the beginning
9 we can show him just one portion of the statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The short part, you had better read it; if it's a
11 longer part, then of course you'll have to tender that into evidence later
12 on if you present it to the witness or at least have it marked for
13 identification. I don't know what your intention is.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that it will be about
15 five pages.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Five pages. You had better present it to the
18 Is the Prosecution aware of the statement that will be provided to
19 the witness, date --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The origin of the statement is
21 the Office of the Prosecutor and I just mentioned the relevant dates.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The statements of all these dates?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I'm really
24 sorry, but I'm listening at the same time to the English interpretation.
25 Would you please follow the transcript so that I can answer to your
1 question? I'm sorry. I did not hear your question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you were
3 presenting statements of several dates or of a specific date?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The first pages,
5 Mr. President, are grouped under three dates.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You may proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which will take me only 30
8 seconds to locate the pages in question.
9 To be more precise, I am referring to the 12th, the 13th, and the
10 14th of November, 2001. I should like to show these few pages to the
11 witness at this point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have them marked for identification
13 or are you going to present them --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will see, Your Honour, at
15 the end of the testimony. Internal numbers for the Prosecution are as
16 follows: 0212, 9568.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any copies for the Bench,
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me find my copies,
20 Mr. President. I should like to state that we've had a technical problem;
21 however, everything is here. I hope that everyone has got their copies.
22 Is there a problem with the interpretation? Very well. May I continue,
23 though I can see that my colleague is --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at line
1 11, said that he was referring to the statement of the 12th, 13th, and the
2 14th of November, 2001. That is correct in that the pages which he has
3 identified were attached to the statement signed on the 14th of November,
4 but more particularly, those pages come from the statement signed on the
5 1st of November, 2001 by the witness, which was attached to the later
6 statement. So I rise to my feet to clarify that the pages which my friend
7 has provided to the witness in fact come from the statement signed on the
8 1st of November, 2001. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think the main issue is at what time and what
10 date exactly they were signed but that we are not mistaken as far as the
11 pages are concerned.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please indicate always by the last
13 four figures the page you're referring to. So if you're asking anything
14 about 9568, then please indicate that it was 9568 or 9569 or -- yes?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do that,
16 Mr. President. However, let me indicate that we've had a problem with the
17 photocopying machine here in the building, and I no longer have the
18 relevant numbers in front of me. But I will be referring to the document
19 that you yourself have in front of you.
20 Q. Witness, on the pages that you have in front of you, do you
21 recognise your signature?
22 A. Yes, I recognise my signature.
23 Q. Is it true that one can follow the incidents that were the subject
24 of the statement in a chronological order, formally speaking?
25 A. I don't believe the -- all the incidents are in chronological
1 order in the statement.
2 Q. Let me rephrase the question, please. Is it not true that in this
3 document you were talking about an incident at the beginning which took
4 place at the beginning of July, then as we progress in the statement, you
5 finally speak about the moment when -- that is, the incident when you were
7 A. Okay. Yes. I believe that's correct.
8 Q. So it is a chronological order, more or less?
9 A. More or less.
10 Q. Mr. Ashton, would you please tell us, in these two documents, what
11 would be the incident which you referred to on Friday concerning the
12 photograph of the attack, the photograph which was taken from the PTT
13 building. If you don't remember the exact place, let me remind you that
14 the last four digits are 1328?
15 A. The two documents I've got, one document here -- what's the other
16 document you're referring to?
17 Q. You're talking about the photograph? Would you like to see it
19 A. Yes. The other copy you have, if available.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, do I have to
21 show the witness the photograph once again?
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of the Registry
23 at this moment, so I'd like to ask the usher to bring the photo to the
24 witness. This is approximately in the middle of the bundle, Mr. Ashton.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the photograph 1328; is that correct?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. If that's a question, yes, that's correct.
3 A. Where in the document are you pointing out Friday that was
4 reported to?
5 Q. I think that I asked a question [In English] witness statement
6 [Interpretation] And the question is as follows: In the witness statement
7 that you have in front of you, where is the incident which concerns the
8 photograph in question, 1328, that you also have in front of you?
9 A. I don't recall in all honesty referring to this incident here in
10 this document.
11 Q. Take your time. If you need to, you may read the text in its
12 entirety. We are talking about the month of July, 1992?
13 A. This photograph was not taken in July. This photograph was taken
14 in September.
15 Q. So is it your testimony that this photograph was taken in
17 A. In the beginning of September. Yes, it was.
18 Q. Very well. Let me immediately follow up with another question.
19 You stated before this Court that in Germany, in a US air force base, you
20 had met someone that in French I would be referring to as a military
21 liaison. When was that? On what date?
22 A. In September he was working at Sarajevo airport. He wasn't in
24 Q. No, no. I'm sorry. That's not my question. You stated, under
25 oath, before this Tribunal, that you had met this person in an American
1 base in Germany. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. When exactly was that?
4 A. Early October I went -- the end of September to Germany, I went
5 again in October to Germany. It was be sometime after that, because I had
6 the photographs when I came back.
7 Q. You also testified before this Court, sir - I do not wish to be
8 mistaken - that it was during your stay in this American base, which took
9 place immediately after your wounding, that is, some ten days later, the
10 2nd of August, 1992, to be more precise. You never testified before this
11 Court that you had been in this American base on several occasions. Why?
12 A. Because when I was working for the United Nations I had the
13 ability to fly on any UNPROFOR flight to any one of the countries it was
14 going to, Italy, Rhein-Main air force base, Zagreb, Split, and I made
15 flights to Rhein-Main, I made flights to Zagreb, I made flights to Split.
16 They're all recorded in the register at Luvkomet [phoen] is he Sarajevo
17 airport. Every time one of us got on the flights we would have to sign
18 in, and I travelled to Germany at least five times.
19 Q. And on each occasion it was order to meet with officers -- strike
20 that. On each occasion it was in order to meet with individuals on the
21 American base in Germany?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness just has stated that,
23 for example, he went to Italy, so a question asking whether he was always
24 seen on a German -- on German territory, other people --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase the question.
1 I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.
2 Q. You have testified that you had seen this individual on several
3 occasions in Germany.
4 A. That's correct. Three, to be exact.
5 Q. You have also told us that the individual in question did not have
6 permission to leave the American base; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. May I therefore conclude that you met with him on several
9 occasions at this particular American base?
10 A. For some reason, he was always at the plane when it arrived to
11 find out who was getting on or off the plane. I assume - I don't know -
12 he was there at the logistics end of it. I never asked that question.
13 Q. Does that mean that you met with him on several occasions at this
14 American base?
15 A. I met with him three times, each of the three times I saw him.
16 The first time I went out with him for drinks because I had to stay at the
17 hotel that night on the base. That was the night we had our detailed
18 conversation. That's the night he saw the pictures. The second time we
19 spoke briefly. He invited me to go with him to the base bar. I didn't
20 have time. The third time was also a brief greetings, a short
21 conversation about his interest in going to the United States, and that
22 was it.
23 Q. May I ask you to tell us what you were doing at that American
24 base? It's not because you were wounded once again, was it?
25 A. No. Whenever any one of us, any United Nations official, and even
1 journalists had the right to fly out on these flights to any base they
2 wanted to go, the British, the French, the Norwegians, the Italians, the
3 Spanish, and I flew on several other UNPROFOR flights. I flew with the
4 French quite frequently I flew with the British to Ancona, the French to
5 Ancona. I flew with the French to Split. I flew with the Americans from
6 Sarajevo to Zagreb.
7 Q. I don't think I heard you say yesterday that on several occasions
8 you had been to that American air force base. Is that correct?
9 A. No, I was not asked any question about how many times I went.
10 Q. Very well, then. I thought I heard you say that you gave as the
11 date of that photograph as being July.
12 A. No, I did not give that date as being July. This photograph was
13 taken early September and in October I showed this to the gentleman in
14 Rhein-Main air force base, along with some other photographs from the
15 hospitals. I had finally put an album together the beginning of October.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will check
17 that out later on. Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, to go back to that liaison person that we mentioned and
19 that we now discover that you met him on several occasions, in Germany,
20 now, was that person wearing civilian clothes or military clothes,
21 military uniform?
22 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
23 Q. Why did you then say, and I quote from memory, but I will be able
24 to look it up in the text if you contradict me, that he was wearing a
25 uniform all the time?
1 A. I never said this guy wore a uniform. He never did.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the
4 Court's indulgence, there seem to be a number of important contradictions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... find the exact
6 text and then you may perhaps at a later moment come back to this.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really do apologise, but as
8 the witness has contradicted me, I must -- need to find the exact text.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... perhaps you
10 could try to find this during one of the breaks, and so that we can
11 continue now.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll find it straight away,
13 but yes, I will go on to ask the witness another question straight away.
14 Q. Witness, I asked you -- on Friday I asked you a question, to find
15 out whether you were treated in a hospital or private clinic in Germany.
16 Do you remember me asking you that? Yes or no?
17 A. I remember you insinuating that I was treated in a private clinic
18 and asking about a hospital, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you answered that you had never said
20 that you were ever treated in a private hospital? Did you say that?
21 A. No, I didn't say that. I said private clinic. I was not treated
22 in a private clinic.
23 Q. What is the difference between a clinic, a private clinic, and a
24 private hospital? Could you explain that, please?
25 A. The difference is between the question you asked on Friday. I was
1 treated Krankenhaus Bogenhausen in Germany, in Munich Germany. That was
2 the hospital I was treated at.
3 Q. So it wasn't a private hospital?
4 A. No. That's a State Hospital.
5 Q. And it is not a private clinic either?
6 A. Negative.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not the
9 first time this witness has contradicted himself. The witness asserted,
10 and I'm going to read it out to you in a moment, that he was treated in a
11 private hospital, and I'll find the exact reference in just a moment.
12 As far as the question -- as far as one of the number of
13 contradictions are concerned, the reference is the following: The 11th of
14 January is the date. It is a Friday, Friday the 11th of January, and the
15 exact line in my provisional transcript is as follows, and it comes from
16 the mouth of Mr. Ashton and it is 14:42:12, and I quote: [In English]
17 "Therefore, I have no idea if he was or was not except for the fact that
18 he was constantly in military clothes, every time I saw him."
19 Q. Let me ask the question once again of you, Witness. What you
20 said, is it correct or am I wrong?
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: It is not my recollection that the witness said
24 that. We have gone on our LiveNote to the page and line provided by my
25 friend, and I don't see the text there. I assume that this is explained
1 by an anomaly with the software. My friend is now putting to the witness
2 the proposition that -- more or less he's inviting the witness to agree
3 that that's what was said. I would be grateful for an opportunity to find
4 that passage, given -- the passage in the transcript given that's not my
5 recollection that's what the witness said. Perhaps my friend could assist
6 me in finding that passage by referring from his transcript as to the
7 question which preceded that answer. That might assist us. Thank you,
8 Your Honour.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, I would allow Mr. Ierace to
11 at least check on the source you're using at this moment. But if you can
12 help him, please.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly. The document that
14 I have before me is the transcript of Friday, the 11th of January, 2002.
15 The question was asked at 14 hours, 41:27. And I'm going to reread the
16 answer. But, Mr. President, the question was asked in English, the
17 witness answered in English, and I am going to read out the quote.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You've found it, Mr. Ierace?
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the transcript on the LiveNote for
20 Friday indicates the time of commencement of cross-examination, which is
21 about 10 minutes before that time reference for my friend, so that has
22 assisted us to try and find the passage. We're just checking for it now.
23 If you would allow me a moment, Mr. President, I'll indicate when we've
24 found it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. As we're here, we
2 can quote the line where the witness asserted that he was indeed treated
3 in a private hospital, and he has just contradicted himself in that
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've found a passage which confirms my
6 recollection. On my copy of the transcript, it is page 14 -- excuse me.
7 At least, the numbers in the margin are 1447:1. I'm unsure as to whether
8 14:47 refers to the time or the page number. Excuse me. I think it's the
9 page number. And I'll read the question and answer.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not quite
11 sure whether it is up to Mr. Ierace to read the questions and the answers
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of importance at
14 this moment that there's no misunderstanding about the lines you are
15 quoting. So I'll allow Mr. Ierace to read what is in his understanding
16 the line you're referring to, so that there will be no misunderstanding.
17 MR. IERACE: This passage appears in the answer: "First of all,
18 he was never a Bosnian Serb officer or a military personnel, at least he
19 never --"
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. That's quite a different
21 passage. I really do apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to have -- could you please provide the
23 Bench, both of you, with the pages - I don't know whether they can be
24 printed or not - you're referring to. I want to make clear that there's
25 no misunderstanding about what is intended by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Since we
1 have no provisional transcript, the Bench has no provisional transcript
2 yet, I'd like you to present, as far as possible, the text you're
3 referring to so that I can check whether it is the same or not.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I hand the
5 usher the document in question and the contradiction is mentioned here, as
6 I said, at 14:41:12. That's where the contradiction appears.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether this is a contradiction or
8 not will later be decided by the Bench, if necessary, and you cannot just
9 suggest a contradiction may be there but not the contradiction as such.
10 Could you please provide first the Prosecution with the page you're
11 referring to, and if there's any misunderstanding, provide then the Bench
12 with the information.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, Mr. President, and
14 I should just like to note that we have the same documents but the Defence
15 will be happy to help out the Prosecution.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm grateful for that opportunity and
17 I'm grateful to my friend from providing the transcript, and I invite Your
18 Honours to read it. There are two relevant pages that -- that are two
19 relevant passages on the page which my friend has handed to me. The first
20 is at line -- and these are the numbers on this page - 14:39:02, and in
21 particular, 14:39:13, where these words appear: "He always wore civilian
22 clothes." And then further down the page, at 14:42:19, these words
23 appear: "He was constantly in military clothes, every time I saw him."
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's just what I was saying,
25 Mr. President.
1 MR. IERACE: I haven't finished. I haven't finished.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Oh, sorry.
3 MR. IERACE: It is my distinct recollection that at no stage did
4 the witness say, on Friday, that this person always wore military
5 clothes. In other words, it's my suspicion that there is a mistake in the
6 transcript which will need to be checked against the tape, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Prosecution may later check on whether
8 this is a mistake in the transcript or in the translation, but I think at
9 this moment, since the provisional transcript has to be -- the bases we
10 work upon at this moment, I will allow Mr. Piletta-Zanin to continue
11 questioning. There's no misunderstanding at this moment about what he's
12 referring to and whether this is a correct line or not, you'll have the
13 opportunity to challenge that later on.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no
16 suggestions to make to the proposal of the Prosecution, but I would like
17 to take note of the fact that we have no problems with the translation.
18 The Prosecution has no problems of interpretation and translation. Thank
19 you. And that as a result, if a problem has occurred, the Prosecution
20 reacts immediately and not three days later.
21 Having said that, and in that same vein of thinking, witness, you
22 have said that you were never treated in a private clinic or hospital.
23 Q. Have I misunderstood you or is that indeed what you stated?
24 A. I was treated in a hospital in Germany. Now, I didn't know if
25 Krankenhaus Bogenhausen was private or public, but I believe it's a
1 public hospital. I'm not sure.
2 Q. You said a moment ago that it was a State Hospital. I think the
3 term you used was State Hospital; is that right?
4 A. I'm not sure what Krankenhaus Bogenhausen's status is --
5 Q. Would you like to go back to your statement of a moment ago, what
6 you said?
7 A. I know what I said a moment ago. I'm just not positive -- I'm
8 under the impression that it is, but I'm I can't answer the question
9 because I'm not positive what the status is.
10 Q. A moment ago you were more assertive in the affirmative. But let
11 me rephrase my question. If today you do not know whether it was or was
12 not a public hospital, how, then, were you able to assert that it was not
13 a private clinic?
14 A. The only -- I can assert that it's not a private hospital.
15 Q. But that's the answer you gave me when I asked you. Why did you
16 give me that answer, then?
17 A. I don't know if it is state or private.
18 Q. Why did you tell me, categorically, in answer to one of my
19 questions, that it wasn't a private clinic? I think you said, following
20 on from my memory, "I never stated that I was treated in a private
21 clinic." I think that's what you said. So why did you say that, if you
22 weren't sure?
23 A. Because that is correct. I was never treated in a private
24 clinic. I was treated in a hospital, not a clinic.
25 Q. Very well. What is the difference, sir, between a hospital and a
1 clinic? That is also one of the questions I asked you a moment ago?
2 A. My definition of a clinic in Germany is a small institution where
3 you go for specialised treatment. A hospital is a large institution that
4 treats a wide variety of injuries with an emergency room and a complete
5 medical -- it's a complete medical facility.
6 Q. Is that the reason why you said that?
7 A. Said what?
8 Q. The answer we're talking about now, that you were never treated in
9 a private clinic.
10 A. That's the reason I said I was never treated in a private clinic.
11 That is correct.
12 Q. But you'll agree with me that you did state that you were treated
13 in a hospital, a private one?
14 A. I was treated in a hospital.
15 Q. Private?
16 A. I don't know if it's private or state. I'm not sure if
17 Krankenhaus Bogenhausen --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
19 refer back to the statement, if I may, now, or rather, the evidence,
20 because the witness's memory seems to be shorter than our own. On the 9th
21 of January, 2002, line 16:31:39, and I would be happy to provide the
22 Prosecution with a copy if they are unable to find that particular line,
23 but I shall quote, 16:31:39 is the line number [In English], "so I went to
24 Munich, to a private German hospital, where the doctors said," And so on
25 and so on and so on.
1 Q. Mr. Ashton, did you state, on the 9th of January of this year, at
2 around 1600 hours, 31 minutes, 39 seconds, that you were treated in a
3 private hospital in Munich?
4 A. Okay. Now there's clarification in the question you're asking.
5 It's very clear to me why I responded how I did on the 9th of January. In
6 reference, you kept trying to assert that I was treated at a military
7 hospital, and I explained that I was not treated at a military hospital.
8 I went to a German hospital. Whether private or state, it didn't matter.
9 I just went -- I was not treated at a military institution. That's what I
10 was trying to point out.
11 Q. I think that you understood the question very well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you just indicate the
13 relevance of this questioning to the Court, because one thing is for sure,
14 that Mr. Ashton indicated, whether state or private or military or
15 whatever, that he was treated in a hospital which was called Bogenhausen.
16 Could you please indicate, apart from the point you made, that in the
17 wording of the answers given by the -- yes, please.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. President, for the
19 following reason: We don't have the name of the hospital in question.
20 The witness stated what he stated, that is to say that he was treated in a
21 hospital, and the name that I heard given was krankenhaus.
22 JUDGE ORIE: He said several times.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I'm not quite sure. We
24 can ask him the question again, and that's what I want to learn,
25 actually. May I go ahead with the question?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. What was the exact name, sir, of the hospital in question?
4 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen and you will find that in Friday's
6 Q. You have a better memory of it now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Bogenhausen?
9 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen.
10 Q. Very well. I think there was a problem in the transcript, but we
11 have the name now, and that's what I wanted to arrive at?
12 JUDGE ORIE: What I would like to clarify, Mr. Ashton, at this
13 moment, in order to avoid further misunderstandings, Bogenhausen sounds
14 very much like the name of a village or a city. Was the name of the
15 krankenhaus, of the hospital, was Bogenhausen or was the location of the
16 hospital in a village, city, whatever, called Bogenhausen?
17 A. Krankenhaus Bogenhausen sir, is on the outskirts of Munich. I
18 believe, and I'm not positive, so I can't tell you the exact, but I
19 believe it's in the Bogenhausen district of Munich. It's an area of
21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any other hospitals in Bogenhausen?
22 A. No, sir, I'm not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, let me go back to my questions and the list thereof. We
2 seem to have lost a great deal of time in clearing up that contradiction.
3 JUDGE ORIE: When you're trying to find your next question, I
4 would like to draw your attention to what, in my mind, may be a mistaken
5 translation. I'd like to take you back to a line which is indicated as
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which date, Mr. President?
8 JUDGE ORIE: You ordered us to react immediately, so that's what
9 we are doing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So I've got on 9:32:14, in my
10 recollection, the witness has not stated a hospital is a large institution
11 that treats a wide variety of injuries, but, as far as I understood, he
12 was referring to a wide variety of types of treatment needed and not just
13 injuries. I don't know whether this is also the recollection of the
14 parties. If this is true, we might correct it right away.
15 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Your Honour. That's the recollection of
18 Mr. Blaxill alongside me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I admit that I did not quite
21 take your point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The point is that it is referring to various types of
23 injuries, where I thought that the witness was referring to various types
24 of illnesses in need of treatment.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, what I didn't
1 understand, Mr. President, is why you indicated that it was a problem of
2 translation, interpretation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In my recollection, but if it's not true, of course
4 you can check the tape.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's the word "translation"
6 that rather surprised me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I think it has not great relevance. I just
8 wanted to --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite. Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, you stated, and I'm referring back to your accident on
11 the 23rd of July, 1992, that you were escorted by some seven men. Is that
12 right? Is that correct?
13 A. Seven directly with me, yes.
14 Q. You mentioned, in English, concerning those seven people, I think
15 you used the term "team." Is that correct?
16 A. I don't remember the term "team." I'm sorry.
17 Q. May I quote once again?
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may always quote, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, you
19 may always quote.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you profoundly.
21 Q. We're talking about the day of the 9th of January, 9th of January,
22 2002, and you indicated the following: [In English] "At that point, the
23 team I was travelling with," et cetera, et cetera. [Interpretation] Can
24 you firm --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace is on his feet.
1 MR. IERACE: I'd be grateful if my friend could give pages and
2 line references.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to give you the
5 line in due course. I think it is 16:28:10. But we have no page
6 indication on this provisional document. But let me quote again "at that
7 point, the team I was travelling with," et cetera, et cetera.
8 Q. Did you in fact use that term "team," sir? Yes or no, please?
9 A. I don't recall the word "team." I mean, group, team. I use
10 the same interactively.
11 Q. The word "team" or "group" meant the people in question; is that
12 right? You were referring to them?
13 A. Team or group, yes. I was with a group.
14 Q. The seven people that I mentioned a moment ago?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You stated before this Tribunal that the five policemen who were
17 accompanying you did not carry weapons. Is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And you've just told me that the word "team" or "group" designated
20 the same thing, that is to say, the people who were accompanying you, and
21 there were seven of them, and you stated, after the quotation that I just
22 quoted a moment ago, you go on to say [In English], "Had time to get their
23 weapons up and return fire." [Interpretation] End of quotation. I
24 therefore take it, following on from your explanations, that the team that
25 you were saying numbered seven persons was armed because you stated that
1 they were able to return fire. Is that correct?
2 A. That is not correct.
3 Q. Haven't you told me a moment ago that the word "team" that you
4 used concerned the group of people that accompanied you -- meant the group
5 of people that accompanied you?
6 A. You phrased this last statement, this last question, they raised
7 their weapons and returned fire. I never indicated who raised their
8 weapons and returned fire. I did indicate -- I don't know if in this
9 testimony, but I did indicate that the HVO soldiers who were in front of
10 us raised their weapons and returned fire. The police officers --
11 Q. I asked a very precise question of you. I asked you about the
12 team, and you told me that you had spoken about a group of people. We
13 knew that there were seven of them, and you stated, I'm going to read once
14 again, if necessary [In English], "And at that point the team that I was
15 travelling with had time to get their weapons." [Interpretation] And
16 you've just told me that the word "team" in English corresponded to the
17 group of seven people who accompanied you. Is it true that you stated
18 that the police officers in civilian clothes who accompanied you were not
20 A. The police officers who accompanied me were not armed. That's
22 Q. How is it possible, then, that the group was able to return fire,
23 if they were not armed?
24 A. One HVO officer was with the group. He was in front of me. And
25 there were three more HVO officers -- or I shouldn't say officers. I
1 should say soldiers, were in front of them, that were not with our group
2 but they were moving in front of us.
3 Q. You have testified, Mr. Ashton, that you only had two soldiers as
4 your escort, two soldiers in uniform. Now I'm discovering that there were
5 more of them. It seems that we have at least five soldiers in uniform.
6 A. No, there were not five soldiers in uniform. There were two
7 soldiers. One soldier escorting us, one in front of him, and then there
8 were two HVO soldiers waiting on the opposite side of the intersection for
9 us to cross. All in total there were four HVO soldiers and five policemen
10 in civilian clothes, without weapons. The HVO soldiers were armed.
11 Q. Are you talking about the four persons who were ahead of you, who
12 preceded you in order to cross the street?
13 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I submit that that question
14 does not reflect the evidence and it presumes to reflect the evidence.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please say in what respect it doesn't
17 reflect the evidence? We haven't got the transcript in front of us, the
18 transcript of Friday. Are you referring to today's --
19 MR. IERACE: I'm referring to the answer given by this witness
20 which appears on the LiveNote at page 26, from line 3, at 10.02 and 40
21 seconds. The evidence is to the effect -- I'm sorry. 10.03 and 2
22 seconds. That evidence is to the effect that there was one soldier
23 escorting the witness and the civilian-dressed police officers, one in
24 front of him, and then two on the other side of the intersection. The
25 question put by my friend refers to the four persons who were ahead of
1 you. In fact, the evidence is not that there were four people in front of
2 him but one military person with them, another just in front, and then two
3 much further on.
4 JUDGE ORIE: On the other side of the intersection.
5 MR. IERACE: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: There might be some misunderstanding as far as the
7 four or two people are concerned. Could you please rephrase the question
8 as such, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so that everyone is happy with it.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I
10 don't know whether the objection has been sustained or overruled, because
11 as far as I remember --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying not to waste too much time. So if you
13 were in a position to rephrase your question so that everybody could be
14 happy with it, we don't have to give a decision, we don't have to check
15 every single detail of the last 15 minutes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me quote, and it
17 won't be the first time today. And I quote once again, 16:26:41: [In
18 English], "Then we moved --" let me quote another passage, line 16:27:12
19 [In English], "And when we got into the street, four men in front of me
20 went across, and there were several behind me." [Interpretation] The
21 question that I asked before I was interrupted by the Prosecution
22 concerned those four individuals. I don't know whether Mr. Ierace
23 maintains his objection now or not, but I think we have the same text,
24 Mr. Ierace, now.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm seeking to discover that passage.
1 Unfortunately, the transcript which is made available after the day of
2 hearing does not have times on it, and my friend refers constantly to
3 times. If, Mr. President, you will allow me just a moment, I think I can
4 reasonably quickly locate that passage.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will be happy to quote the
6 relevant passage once again, if necessary.
7 MR. IERACE: I've found the passage. My friend now says that when
8 he referred to four people in front, he was referring to this passage in
9 the transcript. Now, that was not at all clear to me, and I presume to
10 the witness, and I presume to Your Honours. It followed on references to
11 the military people who were accompanying the witness, as well as those on
12 the other side of the intersection. Thank you.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So you stand by your
14 objection, Mr. Ierace; am I correct?
15 MR. IERACE: Yes. I object to the previous question that was
16 asked. My friend has now clarified, for all our benefit, which four
17 people he was referring to. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It has been clarified by now. I think the objection
19 should be denied. I'm just looking to my fellow Judges. Since there's
20 whatever misunderstanding there might have been is not there any more.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
23 Mr. President.
24 Q. So before I was interrupted, Mr. Ashton, I told you that there had
25 been four individuals in front of you, and now you are telling us that
1 these four individuals were military men. It's a question.
2 A. There were four military individuals on the -- in front of me in
3 the position -- in the angle -- in the direction I was going. There were
4 five men in civilian clothes behind me unarmed. There were other soldiers
5 very close by, within five, six metres away, but I did not pay attention
6 to who they were, what they were.
7 Q. Do I understand you correctly, in fact, in front of you, you had
8 four individuals in uniform, which made up a team, and a certain number of
9 other people, also in uniform, behind you?
10 A. I just said the five civilian -- men behind me were in civilian
11 clothes, not in uniform, as you've stated in this question. I'm sorry to
12 correct you, but this is what you've stated here. The four men in front
13 of me were in uniform; that is correct.
14 Q. Nevertheless, you stated that you only had two military men in
15 uniform as your escort.
16 A. You have stated that the four men in front of me were a team.
17 That's not the way I saw it. They were not a team.
18 Q. The word "team" comes from your own testimony, but this is not a
19 question. My question concerned four soldiers or four men in uniform in
20 front of you. Is that correct?
21 A. There were four men in front of me in uniform. That is correct.
22 One was with a group I was travelling with and the other three were
23 individuals who were going the same direction but crossed the street
24 before I did.
25 Q. So am I correct in concluding that this was just an occasional
2 A. What do you mean by "occasional"?
3 Q. An escort which was not with you at all times.
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Nevertheless, these soldiers were very close to you at the time of
6 the incident?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So why didn't you therefore mention in your testimony that there
9 was a group of at least five military men during this incident who were
10 close to you?
11 A. There were only four directly related to me, and five civilian --
12 five men in civilian clothes that were identified to me as police
13 officers. One was a friend, the other four were his friends, and that's
14 all I can tell you. Now, there were other soldiers in the area, as I
15 stated before. I don't even know how many there were. There were others
16 I saw in uniform, very close by.
17 Q. So you're saying that there were four men in uniform who were
18 close by?
19 A. In front of me, yes.
20 Q. And only one of them was a member of your escort. That is what
21 you have just stated?
22 A. He was travelling in front of us, yes.
23 Q. So other members of your escort were behind you, the second one,
24 that is, the second person who escorted you?
25 A. The person behind me was my friend Sonni who was a police officer
1 off-duty from Sarajevo.
2 Q. You have told us that you had two soldiers in uniform as your
3 escorts. Is that correct?
4 A. There was one directly in front of me in uniform that was part of
5 the group, but there was another one that joined us before we got to the
6 intersection, there were two at the intersection. The four of them
7 crossed the intersection and I followed. That's when I was shot.
8 Q. Five or four people with you, armed and in uniform?
9 A. There were five people behind me in civilian clothes. There was
10 one in front of me who was talking to our team, our group, however you
11 want to phrase that. He was moving with us. There was one -- we joined
12 us, just before we got to the intersection, he joined up with us --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will ask the
14 question for the third time, I believe now.
15 Q. Four or five people in uniform with weapons that were with you?
16 A. There was only one person in uniform with me. There were four
17 people in uniform in front of me, going the same direction.
18 Q. How far from you were they?
19 A. The first fellow was right in front of me, who was travelling with
20 us. He was in an HVO uniform. The second gentleman we caught up with.
21 He was about five metres in front of us. And then the other two gentlemen
22 were at the intersection. We caught up with them. They talked, the four
23 gentlemen talked to each other. They warned me of the danger of crossing
24 the intersection. And then one by one they ran across. Two of them
25 waited on the other side before anyone else did anything. We talked a
1 little bit there. And then the third one and the fourth one went and then
2 I went. They were not escorts. Just the one soldier was actually an
4 Q. Let me remind you that you testified the other day that you had
5 had two escorts. Is my memory correct?
6 A. There were two HVO officers or soldiers that joined links before
7 we got to the intersection, yes. There was a second one that joined us.
8 Q. Let me ask a different question at this point, Mr. Ashton, whether
9 any civilians in Sarajevo, during your stay there in Sarajevo, who wore
10 camouflage clothes, or as certain armies call it, the leopard-patterned
12 A. No, I don't recall seeing any of them.
13 Q. Are you absolutely positive about that?
14 A. Yes. To my recollection, I'm absolutely positive about that.
15 Q. Sir, I am referring to individuals who worked for or within the
16 army when I talk about camouflage pattern clothes?
17 A. I believe you said civilian. No, I did not see civilians. No.
18 Army soldiers is different.
19 Q. I'm talking about civilians, yes.
20 A. I'm sorry. Let me try and understand your question.
21 Q. The question is very simple. Did you ever see, at any point in
22 time during your stay in Sarajevo, any civilian, irrespective of their
23 gender or age, wearing camouflage uniforms?
24 A. If you consider police officers civilians, they had a blue
25 camouflage --
1 Q. I'm not talking about police officers. I'm talking about
2 civilians. I will ask the question for the third time. Did you ever see
3 civilians, regardless of their sex or age, in Sarajevo during the time
4 that you spent there in Sarajevo, who wore camouflage uniforms?
5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. My friend says -- yes. My
6 friend says this is the third time he's asked the question. The first
7 time he asked it, he confined it to civilians who, "Worked for or within
8 the army." I'd be grateful if my friend could make clear whether at this
9 stage he still confines his reference to civilians to those who were in
10 the employment of the army. Thank you.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] When I say "civilian," I'm
12 referring to a civilian. Once again, let me ask my question. My question
13 concerns civilians.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find out, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what
15 this misunderstanding is about. If you're talking about civilian persons,
16 you can think of their formal status not being military people, not being
17 police officers. You can also understand civilians as those who are not
18 on duty if there was any military position or any police position during
19 duty hours. So I'd like you to clearly identify what you understand by
20 "civilian" and not just by saying that civilians are civilians.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, in your statement, you stated that very often civilians
23 were targeted by isolated shots and/or shelling. Whom did you have in
24 mind when you say "civilians"?
25 A. Civilians as defined by this question were people who were in
1 their daily clothes to go to work, women in dresses, their coats, kids in
2 T-shirts, pants, just no uniforms at all, just as an average person on the
3 street here in The Hague would look walking to work.
4 Q. So you're defining a civilian only by presence of a uniform?
5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I presume my friend means
6 only by the absence of a uniform.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what you had in mind,
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is that true?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] When I said by presence of a
10 uniform, one can also interpret that if a uniform is present, we are not
11 talking about a civilian.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Ashton, I do
13 understand that you understood by "civilians" that people who could not be
14 identified from their appearance, especially as far as clothing was
15 concerned, as anything other than civilians, so no military uniforms, no
16 police uniforms; just ordinary civilian clothing, as you find it every day
17 on the street. Is that correct?
18 A. That is correct, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very grateful to you,
21 Mr. President, for this clarification. At this point I should like to
22 show the witness a document that we intend to tender as an exhibit. Yes,
23 as an exhibit. The document will be D12. It consists of several pages.
24 It is a written statement by Mr. Roy Thomas, which was provided for by
25 the Prosecution. I should like the witness to read out to you, Your
1 Honours, what was declared in the statement, if this is possible, by
2 Mr. Roy Thomas.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is this just a few lines or is this a long --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like him to read only
5 three lines, more or less.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is the context of the document as such that you -- of
7 course, you are free to tender it into evidence, but if it's just about
8 the three lines, I don't think there's any specific need for that, unless
9 of course the Prosecution --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So may I read them out
11 directly, if you wish me to do so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... dealing with at
13 this moment.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 00552646 is the number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a copy so that perhaps the Prosecution
16 could just follow your reading?
17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think the original could be, for the time being, be
19 returned to the Defence, if they're just quoting a few lines.
20 Mr. Ierace, is it clear enough for you?
21 MR. IERACE: Yes, it's certainly legible, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 Q. Witness, I am now going to read to you what was stated by another
25 witness, Mr. Thomas Frances Roy, who was also in Sarajevo as an officer,
1 I believe. He stated the following: [In English] "One of the problems
2 with this was the question of who was a soldier. Many people, including
3 women and children, wore camouflage, and then, many people who were
4 military wore civilian clothes."
5 [Interpretation] Have you understood this quotation, sir?
6 A. Yes, I understand the quotation.
7 Q. Do you think that the witness didn't see things as they were or it
8 was you who perhaps did not observe civilians wearing camouflage?
9 A. I did not observe civilians wearing camouflage. I don't recollect
10 any civilian that I saw wearing camouflage, especially women and children.
11 Q. Thank you. On the other hand, you testified that some soldiers
12 wearing a uniform --
13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In line 10:27:30, you used the word "another
14 witness, Mr. Thomas Frances Roy." He is not a witness, so as you are
15 referring to this witness afterwards, it is better to avoid the confusion.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your
17 Honour. I should have used a different term. I should have said by
18 another statement -- in another statement. Thank you.
19 Q. Let me now go back to what you stated, sir. In response to a
20 question asked of you by the Prosecution, you stated that at the beginning
21 of the hostilities, a certain number of soldiers of Bosnian forces would
22 move from one location to another without weapons, without carrying any
23 arms, because of a shortage of weapons. Do you abide by what you have
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again I object. I'd be grateful for a
1 reference, and a reference that is useful to us, in other words, one which
2 enables us to find the passage. I particularly rise to my feet on this
3 occasion because, at least to me, that question doesn't make sense. A
4 particular piece of evidence from this witness does not spring to mind in
5 response to that question. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please specify the source of your
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is this an objection by
9 Mr. Ierace?
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and I invited
11 you to --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me then try to find ... I
13 will need some time to do that. Let me quote once again. Excuse me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're quoting for the first time. You were
15 referring to a statement. You are quoting for the first time.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I just wanted to say
17 that that was not the first time that I'm quoting something today. Thank
18 you. [In English] "Most of them were not armed because at that point in
19 the war they didn't have any weapons except the ones on the front line,
20 which they traded."
21 Mr. Ierace, the reference is 16:48, January 9th, 2002.
22 The Defence will be happy to give you a hard copy if you need.
23 What is the decision of the Court regarding the objection raised by
24 Mr. Ierace?
25 JUDGE ORIE: You have now identified the source. I would like
1 Mr. Ierace to confirm that he could find it or otherwise you provide him
2 with a copy.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of saving time, I
4 don't require a further reference at this stage. We have some
5 recollection of those words now that we have been given the quote, and we
6 are content for it to proceed. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Has the objection been
10 JUDGE ORIE: It has been sustained to the extent that you had to
11 specify in more detail the source of your reference, and since you have
12 done so, there is no objection which remains.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me ask the question once
14 again, that is, for the second time.
15 Q. Do you confirm this? If I understand you correctly, there were
16 soldiers who could find themselves in town, on duty, active, but without
18 A. Yes, that is true.
19 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. In respect of this same
20 passage, you, I believe, used the word "stress," but I will check if
21 necessary, that the army was under pressure. Is that correct? I'm
22 referring to the army of Sarajevo.
23 A. Can you read the whole statement?
24 Q. By all means.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this might be a suitable moment
1 for this Chamber at this moment to have a break, and this will give you
2 the opportunity not only to find the source of the statement -- the
3 testimony you're referring to at this moment. But I will not allow you
4 any more to put questions without giving clear, specified sources of the
5 references you are making. And please make available to yourself as well
6 hard copies for the Prosecution so that if there's any technical problem
7 in finding immediately the source, that you can hand it over to the
8 Prosecution. Let's not forget that I think we lost at least 10 to 15
9 minutes this morning just by trying to find our sources. Proper
10 preparation of cross-examination means that if you can refer to the
11 testimony given before while preparing it, you also can write down the
12 exact source and have the lines literally available so that any
13 misunderstanding will be avoided.
14 We'll adjourn until 11.00.
15 --- Break taken at 10.38 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, assuming that you found the source
18 you wanted to refer to in putting the last name -- the last question to
19 the witness, I'll give you the opportunity to proceed as soon as the
20 witness has been brought into the courtroom. Mr. Usher is already ...
21 Madam Registrar, the usher is --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this an issue -- is there any objection
1 against the witness being brought in?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was simply this: The
3 Defence is paying great attention to citing -- quoting from the text
4 exactly, and we are ready to provide the text, but I would just like to
5 note that there seems to be a technical difficulty in the sense that we
6 have transcripts with certain numbers, that is to say, date and hour
7 numbers, and I was given to understand that the Prosecution has a
8 different form of transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... unless you have
10 another solution, because I'm more solution-directed than
11 problem-directed. Will there be a possibility of having all the same
12 provisional transcripts? Madam Registrar, do you think that this would be
13 ... Sorry. We're just wondering, we see that two different kinds of
14 provisional transcripts are used by the parties. Are they in the same
15 language, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: The one I have is in English. I think it's
17 the same language.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So could proper attention be paid to the fact that
19 the parties at this moment have different types of provisional
20 transcripts, and so that they get the same, in order not to lose any more
21 time in refining the sources.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Your Honour, I'll just call up the
23 transcript coordinators and I asked them to bring up six copies of the
24 transcript now.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So we have copies even for the Bench so we can follow
1 your quarrelling about the sources. Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there's
2 no other matter, then the usher may bring in Mr. Ashton.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst he's being brought in, could I
4 merely ask what time is the next break?
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think, if I may correct you, --
6 MR. IERACE: Oh, excuse me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The next break, I intended to have the next break
8 after one hour and 20 minutes from 11.00, so I would say at -- let me just
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say half past 12.00 or a little bit
12 before, so that another hour remains after that short break. Yes. Thank
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the
17 [The witness entered court]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With reservations as to the
19 exactitude and correspondence, actually, of the documents in question,
20 with that proviso, the quotations that I'm going to make with respect to
21 the term "stress" corresponds, looking at my lines, 17:14:31. Those are
22 my figures. And the transcript is dated the 9th of January, 2002. So I'm
23 going to quote the passage in question, with your permission, Your
24 Honour. May I proceed, Your Honour? Thank you.
25 [In English] "They were terribly stressed along the front lines,
1 so you didn't see many of them in the city."
2 [Interpretation] That is line 17:14:31, and the following one. I
3 am referring to this passage of your testimony, Witness, and if I
4 understood you correctly, you were indicating that the majority of the
5 soldiers at that particular point in time were at the front lines or front
6 line, rather.
7 A. Excuse me, but, Your Honour, there may be a mistranslation here.
8 I may have said "stressed," but I thought I said "stretched." The
9 interpreter may have gotten that wrong and --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It wasn't an interpretation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It would be a matter of the transcript. If you think
12 that this is not the wording you used, of course you'll have some
13 difficulties in explaining what "stressed" would mean if it's not in your
14 mind. We can check later on, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether, of course,
15 "stressed" and "stretched" are quite similar to each other.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I do understand.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed in questioning, although "stressed"
18 might not be the beginning of the answer of the witness.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Well, I'm not that stressed.
20 A. In answer to your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, either stressed or
21 stretched, I meant they were very thinly placed along the front line.
22 Okay. One moment.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, to make up for time,
24 Mr. President, I'll put another question or put it differently. Thank
1 Q. Witness, do you know how many soldiers numbered the troops of
2 Sarajevo at that time, how many men did the troops at Sarajevo at that
3 time have? What were their numbers?
4 A. I did not know. I was not involved in their statistics.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, am I correct in recalling and in
6 saying that you stated yourself that you had seen, on several occasions,
7 tanks in action, and more specifically, close to the Jewish cemetery area?
8 A. On one occasion above the Jewish cemetery, yes, I did.
9 Q. On one particular occasion you stated that you were able to
10 observe these tanks well because you had, I think you said, telescopic
11 sights with you, telescopic lenses. Is that true?
12 A. That's correct. I had a high-resolution Nikon lens on my Nikon
14 Q. Thank you. So you had your photograph -- your camera with you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you take photographs of the tank?
17 A. I took photographs of the firing, yes.
18 Q. My question did not have to do with the firing but the tank
20 A. No, I didn't take any pictures of the tank.
21 Q. So you were in action, you saw the tank, you are a wartime
22 photographer, and you did not take photographs of the tank. Is that how I
23 am to understand what you said?
24 A. I did not take pictures of that tank.
25 Q. Thank you for your answer?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like
2 to give the witness a number of other exhibits to look at. Do I have your
4 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to know in advance whether you are going
5 to just have them marked for identification or you want to tender them
6 into evidence.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Here is my
8 answer. Previously, the exhibit that I read out from, we would like to
9 tender it into evidence, and it is D12.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness statement that was -- yes?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. Mr. Roy
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas. Do you have it, Madam Registrar?
14 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour. I just returned that one to the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I remembered. So you want to
17 tender that into evidence. We'll do that at the end of your
18 cross-examination, but at least give a prenumbered copy, D12, to the
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can hand it over right
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the other exhibits that I
24 wish to present the witness with are photographs, for the most part, and
25 as far as possible, I should like the witness to answer in technical terms
1 and to give quite specific answers.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Provide the Prosecution and the Bench with copies
3 and --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll do that straight away,
5 Mr. President, yes. The number is D13, a first exhibit. Can I hand it
6 over to the registrar -- the usher, I'm sorry. To the usher.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please collect the ...
8 Yes, and please distribute them. Yes.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't think the
11 witness has received a copy of the text yet. Could the witness be given
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: Just before that takes place, I have now found the
17 passage which my friend read out about ten minutes ago.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: Which he read out as follows: They were terribly
20 stressed along the front lines, so you didn't see many of them in the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate also what page it is.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes. Page 1320.
24 JUDGE ORIE: 1320.
25 MR. IERACE: Commencing at line 5, and it reads, in English --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: "The forces were so thin that they were terribly,
3 terribly stretched, out along the front lines, so you didn't see much of
4 them in the city." So it appears that the witness's recollection was in
5 fact correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is correct. Thank you.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I'm positively sorry. What I have is
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be that you have the provisional copy
10 and that they have later been corrected. So this is a misunderstanding.
11 I can't blame anyone for.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Sorry about that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I go ahead with my
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
18 Q. First question, sir: Do you speak French?
19 A. Who are you asking? Are you asking me that question?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Okay. No, not -- no.
22 Q. Why did you state in your written statement that you spoke French?
23 A. Because I studied French. I can understand a little bit.
24 Q. Why have you just told me that you don't speak French?
25 A. Because I'm not fluent. I don't speak it every day.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Very well. The photograph that you have in front of you, what
2 type of weapon, with technical details, does this represent? And when I
3 say a technical definition of the weapon, what I mean is, is it a T-57,
4 58, 54, or whatever. Give us the numbers that the weapon is identified
6 A. This looks like a modified T-55 or possibly a T-64. It has a
7 100-millimetre gun on it.
8 Q. So you think it is a T-55 or --
9 JUDGE ORIE: It looks like a modified T-55, or possibly a T-64.
10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And now I'd like to present another document. We're going to
13 produce it, under the following number: D13. And I'd like to tender it to
14 the Court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The document just given to us bears the number D13,
16 so there might be -- if you're talking about another document --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Actually, we're talking about
18 D14. I apologise. Thank you very much. Can I hand it to the usher? And
19 I'm going to ask the witness the same question for each of these
20 documents, each of the following documents.
21 Q. The same question for you, witness.
22 A. This is a T-72 with a 122-millimetre [Realtime transcript read
23 incorrectly "100-millimetre "] gun, apparently. I can't see the muzzle
24 Q. What was the number you've just given? Which number?
25 A. T-72.
1 Q. I can't see the transcript. It hasn't come up on the transcript.
2 It hasn't come up on my screen yet. 72? 72?
3 A. Yes. And the transcript is wrong here. I said 122-millimetre
5 Q. Okay. Witness, I have another question for you, and it concerns a
6 document which will be D15, document D15, and I'd like to hand that out
7 now too, to the usher. And the questions will always be the same,
8 Mr. President, that is, to identify, giving the technical number.
9 So the same question once again, Witness?
10 A. This appears to be a T-72 as well.
11 Q. We now come to the next document, Mr. Usher, which is D16. I
12 apologise for having to make you get up every time?
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and then -- have
14 they been prenumbered by you or -- so that there will be no
15 misunderstanding, so it saves us walking up and down the courtroom five
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. We have D17 and
18 D18. Just a moment, please. We also have D19, D20, and D21 is the last
19 one. Now, for each of these different exhibits, could the witness please
20 indicate to us every time what the model on the photo is.
21 Mr. President, in the meantime, perhaps -- no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the Bench be provided with the -- until D15 has
23 been distributed. Yes? Okay.
24 Mr. Ashton, you may answer the same question in respect of
25 photographs D15.
1 A. D16, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D15.
3 A. D15 I've already identified.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's true, but the Bench has not got yet --
5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D16.
7 A. D16 is the same as D15, T-72, and D17 as well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has not yet been provided with D17.
9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put them on the ELMO. We're
13 having them put on the ELMO. Thank you, Madam Registrar. So D16, the
14 question has been answered.
15 Could you please now put on the ELMO the picture D17.
16 A. D17 is consistent with T-72.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] D18.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 A. I'm not familiar with the earlier Soviet-style tank, but this
21 looks like to a T-32, T-34, in that this is a much older version than the
22 T-54, T-55. It's the previous version. It could be Yugoslav version.
23 I'm not sure.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's 30 or 40?
25 A. I beg your pardon?
1 Q. You've stated 32?
2 A. 32, 34.
3 Q. Thank you. D19, please. I'm sorry. D18?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. D19.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. D19, please.
8 Q. The same question.
9 A. Hold on just a minute. I need to look at this photograph.
10 Q. Take your time. Take your time. Excuse me.
11 A. This has been -- this is slightly modified. We're going back to
12 D18, please, Exhibit D18.
13 Q. Please do. I believe you still have it in front of you.
14 A. This looks more consistent with the T-54, prior to conversion.
15 Q. So this one is therefore a tank you refer to, that is the tank
16 that you refer to when you told us you had seen a position somewhere
17 around Sarajevo. I'm referring to the map that you annotated, that you
18 yourself annotated.
19 A. That's not the tank I saw there, no. It doesn't -- the image
20 coming up on D20 is the one that looks more similar to the tank that I saw
21 at the ...
22 Q. But you have just stated, sir, that it was a T-54?
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I add that the witness testified "T-54 prior to
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. The model T-54 that you saw on location which is mentioned in the
2 map that you yourself annotated, was it a T-54 not-modified model?
3 A. For the Court, and I'm going to state this to clarify this matter,
4 this -- I cannot identify this tank here. It's had some modifications to
5 the outside of it.
6 Q. What number are we talking about?
7 A. We're talking about D18.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we were discussing
10 D19, Mr. President. Am I right?
11 A. D19 is a T-54.
12 Q. D20, please?
13 A. Also a T-54/T-55.
14 Q. The models that we see on D18 and D19 -- no. Sorry. D19 and D20,
15 are they consistent with the types of tanks that you saw and indicated on
16 the map that you annotated?
17 A. D20 definitely, yes.
18 Q. D19?
19 A. I saw it from the side, so yes, I can identify D20 for sure.
20 Q. So D21 would be the same, that is, the same question concerning
21 D21, please?
22 A. [Previous translation continues]
23 Q. Also a T-54 that we talked with?
24 A. T-54, T-55 version, yes.
25 Q. Thank you for your answer, Mr. Ashton, and I will finish with this
1 topic. I have a couple of more questions to ask?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm referring
3 to line 18:04:33 and the following line in my transcript, that is, the
4 transcript of January 9th, 2002, in particular, line 18:04:56.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... because I have
6 the final transcript from the 9th of January, which does not indicate any
7 times. So we have to find it. Could you please --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Mr. President,
9 but since I work abroad during the weekend, I don't always have --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... sort this out.
11 Could you please give the line, at least quote what it is so that we can
12 try to find it.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have any other
14 reference, but the time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... please quote it
16 so that we can find it. Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The text is as follows: You
18 were talking about the tank that you had seen above Grbavica. You
19 testified as follows: [In English] "The third I actually saw.
20 The tank withdrew after the shooting."
21 [Interpretation] Do you confirm this, sir: If the tank had
22 withdrawn -- I'm sorry, the exact quote is withdrew - it means that you
23 actually saw it withdraw?
24 A. Yes, I saw the tank reverse.
25 Q. My question, consequently, is as follows: Why didn't you take any
1 photos of this tank since it seems that you had come to that area in order
2 to take photographs?
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can now indicate where that passage
4 is in the revised transcript. It appears on page 1245.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. IERACE: At line 3.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Concerning the
9 interpretation, it's not that it appears or it seems; it is that the
10 witness had actually said that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What is your question?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Why didn't you take any photographs, since you were able to see
14 the tank and you had actually come to that location in order to take
16 A. That image was -- I was in the window of the Holiday Inn when this
17 incident occurred, and I had run out of film. I had taken several rolls
18 of film. There was a CBS camera crew, so I was watching through my lens
19 and pointing out to them where the tank was. I was waiting for another
20 photographer to come in to loan me some film, but by then, when she
21 arrived, it was too dark.
22 Q. So are you saying that it was much too dark to see?
23 A. No. It was early -- about 4.00 in the afternoon when the tank
24 came out, but I was there for almost three and a half, four hours. I have
25 images that where the shells were landing and I couldn't find the tank for
1 quite some time and eventually it came out in the clear.
2 Q. Thank you for your answer?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a few more questions and
4 I will be finishing my part of the cross-examination.
5 Q. Sir, am I correct if I say that you have testified before this
6 Chamber that you heard talks about a price consisting of 300 German marks,
7 concerning foreign journalists who were targeted or hit by snipers? I
8 have not used the term "foreign journalists" just "journalist," in
9 respect of each journalist. Is it correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Have you ever heard General Galic issue an
12 order concerning such a price to be given in this sense?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Have you ever heard any officers under the authority of General
15 Galic issue such an order?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Have you ever heard, sir, General Galic issue any execution order
18 to any officer?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies of the interpreter.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Concerning an iron cross, at any point in time.
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Have you ever heard, sir, any of the officers under the authority
24 of General Galic issue any execution order concerning the so-called fire
25 cross --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Iron cross, I'm sorry.
2 A. No, sir.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Sir, have you ever seen, because you could have seen and not only
5 heard, any officer under the authority of General Galic issue any such
6 order -- any such orders? Yes or no?
7 A. In reference to this iron cross pattern?
8 Q. I said orders, in plural, not only in respect of iron cross but
9 also in respect of prices in cases of attacks on journalists. I was
10 referring to the price?
11 A. Oh, okay. That's different. No, I did not hear of any officer
12 say that there was an order or given an order to shoot journalists for a
13 price. No, I did not.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions
15 for the witness. This concludes my cross-examination of the witness, and
16 my colleague will continue with the cross-examinations, as we previously
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one final
19 question at this moment. The question put to you, Mr. Ashton, by
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin whether you heard any officer to give any of such orders
21 or that you have seen such orders to be given, the last part of the
22 question has not been answered yet.
23 A. Not in reference to the killing of the journalist or the "iron
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ashton.
1 Ms. Pilipovic, you then may proceed in the cross-examination of
2 Mr. Ashton.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
5 Q. Mr. Ashton, let me say hello, and I shall be asking you questions
6 from now on. First of all, I would like you to confirm that to the
7 investigators of the Prosecution you gave three statements. The first
8 statement was dated the 25th, 26th, and 27th of June, 1995; the second
9 statement is dated the 29th and 31st of October and 1st of November, 2001;
10 and the third statement was dated the 12th to the 14th of November, 2001.
11 Is that correct? Did you give those statements and did you sign them?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Together with the statement that you gave to the investigator on
14 the 12th, 13th, and 14th of November, and the 29th, 30th, and 31st of
15 October, 2001, and the 1st of November, 2001, you also provided an annex
16 concerning the explanation of photographs that you handed over to the
17 Prosecution. And according to your words, you took those photographs
18 during your stay in Sarajevo. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
20 Q. Likewise, on the 1st of November, 2001, together with the
21 statement which is dated October and up until the 1st of November, 2001,
22 you also included some positions that you annotated according to your
23 recollection, and you indicated those positions on the map that you signed
24 on the 1st of November, 2001, the map which you provided to the
25 Prosecution and which was subsequently provided to the Defence by the
1 Prosecution; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct, ma'am.
3 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that the dates contained in your
4 statements correspond exactly to the incidents which took place during
5 your stay in Sarajevo?
6 A. Some dates correspond exactly, some are within a couple of weeks.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that question, for this
8 reason: That the question invites the witness to confirm, indeed to agree
9 with the Defence, that the dates in the statements, that's plural,
10 correspond to the incidents. The first paragraph in the last of those
11 three statements carries a qualification by the witness to the effect that
12 he at that point has available his journals and that his notes and
13 correspondence, and as a result, in that statement, he's able to give a
14 fuller account, and I quote these words "with any appropriate additions or
15 alterations." Therefore, the question in its phrasing could not embrace
16 the dates of the three statements where there are some alterations and
17 inconsistencies. So that extent, it tends to mislead the witness, and I
18 think it's important that Your Honours are aware of that situation. Thank
20 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. If the first lines just
21 quoted by Mr. Ierace are correct in the third statement. If not, please
22 tell the Court, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not agree with
24 the objection raised by my learned colleague from the Prosecution, because
25 the intention of the Defence was to ask a question concerning each
1 statement, in particular, the statement given on the 12th and the 14th of
2 November, and that is the reason why we wanted to know whether all of
3 those statements were given by the witness and signed by the witness. So
4 my question following that would be as follows: Which of these three
5 statements is more accurate? Since the witness told us that there was
6 some approximation in his dates. And I just wanted to have the witness
7 confirm that the statement that he gave on the 12th and 14th of November
8 was as follows, "not in any one such case was I able to use my notes or
9 correspondence from the times of the events that I am describing and that
10 I'm referring to as my journal. Now I've had the opportunity to review my
11 documents and provide more details."
12 The Defence wanted to have the witness confirm that it is in this
13 statement that the dates are probably more accurate, and I would follow
14 that with further questions, in view of the fact that the witness referred
15 to his journal. I think that the objection of my learned colleague was
16 somewhat premature.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it related to your first question,
18 which made no distinction between any of these statements, and I wonder
19 whether the objection is also valid for the question indicated by
20 Ms. Pilipovic. She would like to put to the witness as a second question.
21 MR. IERACE: I have no difficulty with the second question,
22 Mr. President, but my friend just purported to read out the paragraph, the
23 first paragraph in the last of the three statements. I am concerned that
24 perhaps she does not have an accurate translation, because --
25 THE INTERPRETER: It is the interpreters who were not provided
1 with the appropriate reference, so what you received was just a
2 simultaneous interpretation of the words of the counsel.
3 MR. IERACE: The passage which my friend quoted contained this as
4 the last sentence. This is the last sentence of the first paragraph in
5 the third statement of the witness: "Now I've had the opportunity to
6 review my documents and provide more details." In fact, in the original
7 English version, that last sentence reads: "I have now been able to go
8 through my records and give a fuller account with any appropriate
9 additions or alterations, to the best of my recollection." If my friend
10 does not have that in B/C/S, then she needs to understand that's what the
11 witness said in his last statement. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber noticed the difference in you quotation
13 and the quotation of Ms. Pilipovic.
14 Ms. Pilipovic, there is a difference in the lines quoted by
15 Mr. Ierace and your reference to these lines.
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with Your
18 Honour's indulgence, I should like to intervene. The text that I have in
19 front of me was correctly quoted in Serbian by Ms. Pilipovic, and there
20 was -- there is a difference in the text, the text that was quoted in
21 English and the Serbian text. So I'm sure we will once again have a
22 problem with translation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, over one of the breaks to
24 come, verify with the original text spoken -- no, the original text in the
25 statement, because that's what we are talking about. I assume that there
1 have been recordings of these statements as well, Mr. Ierace. Am I
2 correct? I mean, this is not the place and the time to solve this
3 problem, because we have to investigate it, at least the parties have to
4 investigate why there are two different versions of these first lines, and
5 this Chamber would be -- would welcome your explanation as soon as you
6 have discussed the matter and as soon as you have found out.
7 Ms. Pilipovic, since the second question you intended to put to
8 the witness, there is no problem, you may proceed.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me
10 just indicate that I do have the original in front of me, the English
11 translation. The document that I received from the Prosecution, 03041593,
12 I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am not misinterpreting anything
13 that is contained in this statement. It is my objective to establish the
14 truth in this case. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, you told us that in the statement that you gave on the
16 12th and the 14th of November, the portion of which I have just read out
17 to you, you were not able to use -- to refer to your notes which you made
18 at the time of the events and that you had now been able -- been given
19 this opportunity. Would you tell us something more about the way that you
20 kept your notes.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. The
22 question presumes to reflect the evidence given by the witness, and to
23 that end, it says that the witness did not have his notes available to
25 JUDGE ORIE: At the time of the statements given.
1 MR. IERACE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. I think this must be a mistake
3 by Ms. Pilipovic. You may proceed. It's common understanding, I think,
4 in this courtroom that it was the time of giving the statement.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. In the
6 statement which the witness gave on the 12th and the 14th of November, the
7 witness stated, "I have now been able to go through my records." And my
8 question concerned the way in which he kept his notes. When I say "the
9 way," I'm referring both to the way he kept his records technically and to
10 the time framework.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may answer the question, Mr. Ashton.
12 A. Every day, in the evening, I would sit down and I would write down
13 a lengthy four, five, six, ten pages, however many required, to describe
14 the day's events. I would occasionally draw a diagram or a map of
15 something I wanted to explain that was complex. I kept notes of things
16 that I saw individually which were not put into the relevant journal but
17 were in a notebook, reporter's notebook. And each day I would conclude
18 this before I went to bed, and then I would do it again the next day.
19 Certain days when there was heavy shelling and I couldn't go out in the
20 street, I would sit and write about events. When I was in the hospital, I
21 would write about events in detail right after the surgeries were
22 finished. In the event that I took a picture, I wrote a caption to send
23 with the picture back to New York, with specifics. Does that answer the
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. May I take it, then, that you wrote every evening when you were
2 able to do so, that you would, in the evening, write out, in your own
3 handwriting, the things you had observed during the day, you would make a
4 note of them in the evening in your own handwriting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you wrote this out by hand, in your own handwriting? That's
7 right, is it?
8 A. Some was in handwriting, some was on a computer at a later time.
9 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the investigators of the
10 Prosecution on the 29th and 30th of October and the 1st of November, on
11 page 4 of that statement, of the B/C/S version, you stated the following:
12 "When I say diary, I mean all notes and letters on a laptop
13 computer and not a diary as in notebook form."
14 Could you tell me what is correct: Was the diary your laptop
15 computer version or do you mean by "diary" what you actually wrote down in
16 a notebook?
17 A. Until September, when I returned from Germany, I was writing
18 handwritten journals in a notebook, after which, when I was working for
19 UNHCR, I was able to write on a computer. Annotations and general notes
20 were taken in a notebook that incidents or little details.
21 Q. As I understood you to say that most of your observations which
22 you took down were taken down on a laptop computer, over a longer period
23 of time, because you said, actually, that it was just until you returned
24 from Germany that you wrote them down in hand, in handwriting. Can we
25 then agree that most of your journal was memorised, if I can put it that
1 way, in the laptop computer? I said "journal" because you said that under
2 "journal" you mean all the notes and letters you kept on the laptop
4 A. No, you cannot, because you refer here to I said journal because
5 you said that under journal you meant, and I quote, unquote, "notes and
6 letters you kept on a laptop computer." No. I wrote notes, I wrote
7 letters to people, in handwriting. I executed a journal in handwriting
8 for the first several months until September, at which time I wrote from
9 then on on a computer, but I still did some handwritten notes as well.
10 Q. I should like to clarify the matter of your journal. When I --
11 when you said "journal," you say to refer to my notes and correspondence
12 which I kept on my laptop." So when you say "journal," you mean the notes
13 and correspondence kept on your laptop computer; is that right?
14 A. That's partially correct, it's partially wrong. I'm also
15 referring to the journals, handwritten journals that I kept when I first
16 arrived in Sarajevo through the time that I returned in September, as well
17 as what I put on the computer later on, a journal being information that I
18 recorded, whether by hand or by computer, it's a journal of my daily
19 events, what I saw.
20 Q. Most of your observations during your stay in Sarajevo were noted
21 where? In the laptop computer or the journal in the notebook?
22 A. Much of it was in -- let me see if I can understand your question
23 correctly here. My observations were equal and both. I had extensive
24 writing in the journals. I had more time to write, so I had a lot more
25 detail in the beginning, as I was doing medical work there, I had less
1 time to write, and the computer journal was not as extensive, I would say,
2 as the earlier journals written by hand.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In 1995, when you gave your statement to the investigators of the
6 Tribunal, you said that you did not have access to all portions of the
7 journal that you kept during your stay in Bosnia, and six years later you
8 told the investigators the following: That you now do possess your notes.
9 Could you tell us the reason why you were not able, for six years, to come
10 into possession of the notes you kept, both in the laptop and in the
11 notebook? Why was this?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are saying that for six years the
13 witness was not able to come into the possession of the notes he kept. As
14 far as I understand is that you refer to his first statement six years
15 ago, that he had not available to him these notes or not full notes
16 available to him, and that six years later he said that he had them
17 available to him. I did not hear the witness say that it took him six
18 years to collect his notes. Could you please either indicate a source for
19 not having been able for six years to recover his notes, or rephrase your
20 question, please.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness statement
22 dated the 12th to the 14th of November, that is to say, none of those
23 cases when statements were given, I was not able to use my notes and
24 correspondence or letters. That's what the witness says in that
25 statement. And my question is that if we look at the date that the first
1 statement was given and in October, he said that in none of those cases
2 was he able to use his notes, miscellaneous notes. I can rephrase the
3 question and ask him the following.
4 Q. Why, what was the reason that in this case, in 1995, and in
5 October 2001 he was not able to use his notes?
6 A. The answer to the question that you're asking, Ms. Pilipovic, is
7 the fact that I did have access to many of the notes all along, which I've
8 provided prior to that date. However, there were other notes that I had
9 sent to the United States. I had sent to other friends, copies, and I had
10 access to those only later on. I had to track people down and get some
11 help to recover them. The notes have always been available.
12 Q. Are you in possession of those notes today?
13 A. No, I'm not.
14 Q. When I mean "now," I don't mean here in the courtroom, when I say
15 "today," I don't mean in the courtroom, but at home. Do you have the
16 originals at home?
17 A. Yes, ma'am, I do have.
18 Q. Thank you. May we agree that the statement you made on the 12th
19 and 14th of November, 2001, in view of the fact that you used your journal
20 and your notes, is the most precise version with respect to date and with
21 respect to your recollections of the time that you were in Sarajevo, if we
22 compare it to the statement made a month before and the statement made in
24 A. Specific reference to certain dates of certain particular events,
25 yes, that is correct.
1 Q. You told us that you arrived in Sarajevo on the 5th of July, 1992,
2 for two days, for a two-day stay. Is that correct?
3 A. My arrival was actually on the 6th, I believe.
4 Q. Well, let's accept that it was the 6th, then, the 6th of July,
5 1992. How frequently before that 6th of July, 1992, did you travel to
7 A. I had never been before that date.
8 Q. How far were you acquainted with the town of Sarajevo and its
9 environs when you arrived on that 6th of July? How well did you know it?
10 A. I knew very little other than what I had seen in media coverage of
11 the Olympics, which did not cover the city of Sarajevo itself but the
12 surroundings, and I was briefed by UNHCR in Zagreb, and I did a little
13 reading, but I really had no detailed knowledge of Sarajevo.
14 Q. In the statement you made on the 12th and 14th of November, you
15 said that from the 5th of July, and I'm quoting page 2 of that statement
16 of yours, "From the 5th of July to the 27th of September, 1992, I was an
17 independent photographer engaged by myself, but I sent the films to Time
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that should be the 28th of
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please check that, Ms. Pilipovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I said the 28th of September.
23 From the 5th of July, to the 28th of September, 2000. Perhaps the
24 interpreters didn't hear me, but I'm reading from the statement in B/C/S.
25 So from the 5th of July to the 28th of September, 1992.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]
2 A. That is correct.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. You told us that in the space of two days, you received papers,
7 you were accredited as a freelance photographer, self-employed freelance
8 photographic journalist. Now, who allowed you to make films in Sarajevo
9 who gave you the papers to do so?
10 A. Well, I didn't state in two days what -- at least, if I did, it
11 would have been in Zagreb prior to coming to Sarajevo. What I did was
12 come to Zagreb first. It was there I was briefed by UNHCR and sent to
13 UNPROFOR to get my credentials. I did have a registered business called
14 International Images in New York city. It's a photo agency that belonged
15 to me, and I applied for my credentials under my images. I provided my
16 New York press credentials, my New York city police credentials, and I was
17 given the UNPROFOR press credentials, as was routine for all journalists
18 coming in and out of Bosnia or Croatia to work with the UN system.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've just had pointed out to me that
20 the transcript, at line 14:12:13:34 refers to my New York city police
21 credentials. That should be press credentials.
22 THE WITNESS: Correction. I did state police credentials.
23 MR. IERACE: I withdraw that.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Up until the 28th of September, that means you were an independent
1 photojournalist, self-employed freelance photojournalist, as you say, a
2 self-employed freelance journalist, photojournalist, and that you sent
3 your films to Time magazine; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct. I was an employee of my company.
5 Q. Is it also correct that you sent your films to Time magazine?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Is it correct that throughout your stay in Sarajevo, you had your
8 Nikon camera with you all the time?
9 A. I had my Nikon camera with me in Sarajevo the entire time I was
10 there, in and out, but I did not have it with me at all times. There were
11 certain areas I went to that I was afraid to take it to.
12 Q. Will you tell us what places you visited where you weren't allowed
13 to take your camera with you?
14 A. I was told specifically by Colonel Indic not to bring a camera
15 into his area and photograph anything except passing in and out through
16 the -- to Central Bosnia. That was acceptable, but not to photograph any
17 military events.
18 Q. When did you meet Colonel Indic for the first time? Where and
19 when, actually?
20 A. The first time I met him at Sarajevo airport, in September.
21 Q. Could you tell us what year and could you give us a closer date
22 for September?
23 A. Yes. I'm sorry. It was September 1992. It was somewhere in the
24 week of the 15th, in that area, September 1992.
25 Q. As far as I understand, up until the 15th of September, until you
1 had met Colonel Indic, you always had your camera with you. Is that
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. You have also said that in the Presidency, you went to the
5 Presidency every day and that it was generally early in the morning, at
6 around 8.00. Is it correct when you say that it was every day? Is that
8 A. Not every day. There was a press conference in the mornings there
9 for journalists, and I occasionally did not go.
10 Q. So you didn't always go. And when you went to the UNPROFOR
11 building, I understand that it was in the PTT building. Who did you
12 contact in the PTT building concerning UNPROFOR?
13 A. At first, Fabrizio Hothchild, who was the UNHCR officer there, who
14 was the UNHCR representative, but I had other contacts in UNHCR too that I
15 contacted, and also World Food Programme and other UN agencies working
17 Q. You said that on the -- you remained until -- in the Holiday Inn
18 until the 28th of September. I accept the fact that from the 2nd of
19 August to the 22nd of August you were not in Sarajevo but you were
20 undergoing treatment. Is that correct?
21 A. The 2nd of August is when I left Sarajevo; that's correct.
22 Q. When did you return? You said you returned on the 22nd of August?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. In your statement, in all three statements, the first, second, and
25 third, you explained an incident that took place on the 14th of July, when
1 you were crossing the street from the Holiday Inn. Do you remember the
2 incident I'm talking about?
3 A. Yes, I remember it very clearly.
4 Q. In your first statement, the one you gave in 1995, you said that
5 sniper fire was opened on an old woman and a girl. That is on page 2 of
6 your statement in the B/C/S version and it is paragraph 5, line 3. And
7 you said that she was being fired on from across the river towards Mount
8 Trebevic. Is that correct?
9 A. That is correct, ma'am.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to have
11 the witness shown a map, the map which my learned colleagues gave to the
12 witness and the witness used. It is number 3644, in which he drew in the
13 positions when asked by my learned friend to do so.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is this 3644 or 3645, as I have Prosecution
15 Exhibit -- not -- it's still a document, not yet tendered in evidence.
16 3645, that's the marked map. Is that the map you mean?
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 3644, Your Honour.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Did you mean 3644.AA?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 44, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right, yes. It is
22 the map that we decided would be shown to every witness, and I think that
23 this present witness marked some positions on that particular map.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I should like to ask the camera to zoom in on the part that you
3 were marking so that we can have a better view.
4 Will you indicate the street the incident took place on. Let's
5 decide what marker pen, what colour marker pen we're going to use to mark
6 this in for Defence, in response to Defence questions.
7 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Black was what I saw that the witness used on the
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Thank
11 you. I don't know whether black would be visible enough, because the map
12 is black. Perhaps another colour would be better.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we had a general decision that black would
14 be the colour of the Defence while red would be the colour of the ... so
15 it becomes unclear, we'll see how to solve it, but let's start with black.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. On the map, draw in -- mark in the street where the incident took
18 place, please.
19 A. This street here that I just marked. Should I put a number there
20 for you?
21 Q. Yes, and could you tell me what street that is, the name of the
22 street, if you know it? If not, never mind?
23 JUDGE ORIE: First put the number in it. I don't know what number
24 we were at at this map, but black "1" would do, because I think it's the
25 first black marking on the map.
1 THE WITNESS: To avoid confusion, I was going to suggest if Your
2 Honour might, D1 for the Defence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or A, B, C. I don't know whether there are any
4 letters on it. Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE ORIE: So that's marked D1 now. Yes.
7 I think the next question was the name of the street, Mr. Ashton.
8 A. Zmaja Od Bosna, I believe.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you happen to know the name of the street where the incident
11 took place?
12 A. Yes. It was Zmaja Od Bosna or I guess it's Mese Selimovica.
13 Q. Mese Selimovica, Osma Odbonna.
14 A. Osma Odbonna. It depends on the map. I think they changed the
15 name. I'm not sure. This was 1992.
16 Q. As far as I understand, this was in front of the Holiday Inn, and
17 the street's name was Zmaja Od Bosna?
18 A. It was the angle street behind the Holiday Inn.
19 Q. So it was not in Zmaja Od Bosna Street but some other street which
20 exits into the Zmaja Od Bosna Street?
21 A. I don't recall exactly the streets, because it's been many years
22 since I knew the streets there, and I never memorised all the streets.
23 Q. Could you indicate Trebevic on the map, please, and from what part
24 of Trebevic did the sniper shooting come from towards that street?
25 A. Trebevic is in -- Trebevic is in this area up here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We can't see your hand on the screen, so please use
2 the ELMO in such a way that we also can follow the hand of the witness
3 indicating where Trebevic would have been. Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: This area here is where Trebevic is. Here's the
5 street that was shot at down here. And you want me to indicate exactly
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I apologise. You said the street which was fired at. Could you
9 clarify that? That's the street. We see the street. And at what point
10 was the firing done from Mount Trebevic? What point on Mount Trebevic did
11 the firing come from?
12 A. It was above the area of the Jewish cemetery but up from very high
13 angle from the lower hill, from this area here. You could see the tracers
14 coming down every third, fourth shot was a tracer shot.
15 Q. Could you mark that spot, please. May I assist you? Have you
16 marked the spot?
17 A. No. I can only give you the general area, because I don't know
18 exactly where, by this map. I would have to look at an image, a visual
19 image. This area here.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please mark that "D2" so that
21 we'll ...
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Would you read out what it says in the circle, the two digits?
24 They're not very visible. The words. I see that it says "Colina Kapa,
25 Bistrik Kula." Is that correct?
1 A. Bistrik Kula. You're correct, ma'am.
2 Q. And does it say Colina Kapa, 966?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. It does. It says Colina Kapa, does it?
5 A. Yes, ma'am.
6 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that from this portion, this
7 section, the one that says Colina Kapa and the circle you drew around this
8 area, that the bullet came from that area?
9 A. No. Actually, it was higher up. It was closer to the road area.
10 I'm going to redraw that circle, if you don't mind.
11 Q. You may. I have nothing against that.
12 A. This will be D2 and this will be deleted.
13 Q. As far as I can see, you have circled the Bogusavac area.
14 A. That is correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I have failed to indicate to you that
16 we would have a break soon a couple of minutes ago and invite you to find
17 a proper moment to stop. My apologies for that. Would this be a point to
18 have the break or not? Otherwise the last portion would be rather short.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I suggest that we have a short break in order
21 to use our time as good as possible and start at 5 minutes to 12.00 -- to
22 1.00. I'm mistaken. We are adjourned until 5 to 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher has left the courtroom in order to bring in
1 Mr. Ashton, I suppose.
2 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, on the map, you indicated the location where Bogusavac
5 can be found, together with Bistrik Kula and Colina Kappa, D1 and D2.
6 Would you show me on the map where the cable car is.
7 A. Wait, please. The cable car is in this area here.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that Bistrik Kula is situated at the
9 height of 1.004 metres, Bogusavac, 1.164, and Colina Kapa, 966?
10 A. I cannot read the heights on this map. If I had a clearer map to
11 look at, that would be helpful.
12 Q. Would you agree with me that those positions are situated on an
13 altitude of approximately 1.000 metres?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You told us that, as far as you are aware, those were the
16 positions of the army of Republika Srpska, that is, Bistrik Kula and
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that in the vicinity of
20 those positions were the positions of the army of BH?
21 A. Only what was pointed out to me as the front line from a Serb
22 position. I want to make note here that there was also another position
23 where sniping came down into that same street, if I could make a circle.
24 Q. I am now asking you only about this particular incident, and I
25 would like to know whether you have any knowledge as to the fact that the
1 positions of the BH army were in the vicinity.
2 A. No, I did not know exactly where their line was.
3 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you come to know at a later
4 point in time where the positions of the BH army were and did you ever
5 visit the positions of the BH army in that area?
6 A. No, I never visited the BH army, just the forces of Republika
8 Q. You're saying you never visited the BH army. Are you referring to
9 the area that I'm now asking you about or generally speaking, that you
10 never, ever visited the positions of the BH army?
11 A. Just in the area that you're speaking about now.
12 Q. I can therefore conclude that you did visit BH army positions in
13 some other areas of Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. I shall later on go back to that question, but now let us try to
16 clarify where exactly this area was where this incident took place. Did
17 you see the bullets coming in, or is it that you heard the shots being
19 A. First I heard the shots being fired and then I saw the shots
20 coming down in the form of tracers.
21 Q. How far were you from that spot where this old lady and a girl
22 were shot at?
23 A. I was approximately 20 metres away.
24 Q. Did you see the point of impact, that is, where the bullet struck?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. With respect to the place where you were, could you explain to us
2 where those bullets hit?
3 A. They were at a 45-degree angle to me. I was at the corner of the
4 Holiday Inn, facing that angled street. The bullets came down across in
5 front of me and hit the street and ricochetted up.
6 Q. What is the distance between the place, that is, the location from
7 which the fire was opened, the area which you circled, Bogusavac, and the
8 point at which the bullet actually struck? What is the distance between
9 these two locations, please?
10 A. Approximately from the area of the circles, 1.500 metres,
11 approximately. I have no exact ...
12 Q. Do you know what kind of sniper rifles the army of Republika
13 Srpska had?
14 A. Only those which I saw at a later time.
15 Q. Would you please tell us what sniper rifles we're talking about.
16 A. I saw a 12.7 millimetre rifle in this area up here where I've
17 circled, and another one lower down, in another area. As far as sniper
18 rifles, I saw other types as well, 7.62.
19 Q. Do you know what the range is of the sniper rifles 7.62?
20 A. Approximately 1.000 metres, depending on the rifle. If it's an
21 assault rifle, it's less.
22 Q. Would you agree with me if I tell you that the shooting from 7.62
23 is best achieved at the distance up to 400 metres?
24 A. If you're using an M-76 sniper rifle, you can get a lot better --
25 a lot more accurate than that. In the case of Republika Srpska, I saw two
1 of those, with high-velocity scopes.
2 Q. According to you, what would be the highest range of 7.62?
3 A. I would say a thousand metres.
4 Q. Do you know what kind of sniper rifle was being used at that time?
5 A. I know it was a larger-calibre round of the 12.7 or larger round.
6 Q. How is it that you know that?
7 A. Because the shells were very large, the impact was much larger
8 than a 7.62, and when they hit the wall, they did a lot of damage when
9 they ricochetted up.
10 Q. So it is on the basis of that that you are concluding that the
11 sniper rifle that was used was not 7.62?
12 A. That is correct. There was a very loud sound also associated with
13 the rifle, much louder than a 7.62 weapon.
14 Q. In view of your knowledge of sniper rifles, can you tell the
15 difference between the fire opened from a sniper rifle and an ordinary
17 A. It depends on the methodology of the shooting.
18 Q. Would you explain that to us, what exactly do you mean by that,
19 when it comes to the methodology?
20 A. A sniper targets generally with one shot at a time.
21 Q. What about ordinary rifle fire?
22 A. Well, if you were using an ordinary rifle from any distance, you
23 would fire several rounds, because if you were trying to shoot someone
24 without proper sighting or without the proper equipment, you would have to
25 expend several rounds possibly for you to get the person on the first
1 round. And that wasn't always the case. Several times a day we would
2 have one shot fired and a shot again, and occasionally there were shots
3 fired in staccato.
4 Q. If, according to you, the bullet came at an angle of 45 degrees,
5 as you testified, in that situation, could one establish where the bullet
6 has come from and in what way?
7 A. Only if you were on the ground and looking back at the shooter.
8 You could establish a general area of where the shooter was, but more by
9 height. Frequently you would see bullets come down from a higher altitude
10 on the hills above Sarajevo. Sometimes you would see them come from
11 between buildings in the city.
12 Q. So you did not actually see the direction from which the bullet
13 had come?
14 A. I saw the direction, the area it came from. Yes, I could see
15 that, because the trace started as soon as it came out of the hill.
16 Q. You knew what that hill was at that time?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Well, you stated that it had come from the Mount Trebevic. Later
19 on you specified and said that it was from the location called Bogusavac.
20 It is on the basis of which information that you were able to reach such a
22 A. When the Canadians arrived with an anti-sniper team, they pointed
23 it out to me. I pointed them to the general direction I thought the fire
24 had come from, because they arrived after the shooting had stopped. Then
25 the shooting began again from that position and the Canadians knew exactly
1 where it was, and I spoke with them after that about the position.
2 Q. As far as I understand you, after the incident happened, the
3 location was visited by Canadians. When you say "Canadians," who are you
4 referring to?
5 A. Canadian United Nations Protection Force, UNPROFOR. They came to
6 the location where the bullets were hitting on the street and placed an
7 APC in place.
8 Q. How soon did they arrive?
9 A. I'd say within 15 minutes, 20 minutes, somewhere in that time
10 area, time frame.
11 Q. On that occasion, did they make any notes? Did they compile a
12 report or take photographs of the location, or did they just talk to you?
13 A. I don't know if they made an incident report or not. When their
14 vehicle was hit, I'm sure they made an incident report of that. They
15 would have to. It's required by their military commanders.
16 Q. So you do not have any specific knowledge that any incident report
17 was eventually made of this incident and in what way the incident
19 A. No, ma'am.
20 Q. You testified that you had come close to the old lady. Is that
21 correct, that you went up to her?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. When she froze in the street, I went up to
24 Q. What happened to the girl?
25 A. She ran to the corner.
1 Q. On that occasion, did you take any pictures of the location where
2 the incident happened?
3 A. No, I didn't. It happened too fast.
4 Q. Did you take any pictures of the spot where, according to you, the
5 bullets hit the street?
6 A. Yes. I have photographs of that area.
7 Q. And you do have those photographs?
8 A. Yes, I have those photographs. There are existing images of that
9 intersection, that area.
10 Q. Do the photographs show the spot that the bullets hit?
11 A. No, they do not.
12 Q. Later on, did you take those photographs to the Canadians, as you
13 call them?
14 A. No. The only UN organisation that ever saw copies of my
15 photograph was UNHCR. I never showed pictures to the military forces that
16 were there under UNPROFOR.
17 Q. Did you show any -- did you report the incident to any of the
18 authorities, in view of the fact that you said that the Canadians made no
19 incidence report?
20 A. I briefly mentioned it to the G4 commander sector in Sarajevo with
21 the French battalion, yes and to UNHCR.
22 Q. When you say "briefly mentioned," does that mean that you told
23 them orally or did you write a report of any kind?
24 A. I told them orally that there had been a sniping incident in that
25 behind the Holiday Inn.
1 Q. The old woman who you say was shot at, where was she injured?
2 What spot on her body, or what spot?
3 A. She was in a state of shock.
4 Q. Can we agree that the bullets which you say came from the
5 Bogusavac direction hit the pavement and ricochetted?
6 A. Yes. They came down and ricochetted back upwards.
7 Q. At what distance was this in comparison to the old woman and the
8 girl? How far away were they from the spot where the bullets hit the
10 A. I didn't see the first bullet actually hit. I saw the second
11 bullet hit right by her feet, maybe one metre past her, on the ground by
12 her feet.
13 Q. What time of day was it?
14 A. It was in the morning.
15 Q. When did the Canadians arrive? You said after 15 minutes, I
17 A. Between 15, maybe 20 minutes later, if I recall correctly.
18 Q. Near the Holiday Inn, where you were staying, was there any kind
19 of military checkpoint or military installation?
20 A. Not that I saw, but the front lines were not too far away, over by
21 the old congress building on the other side, by the Miljacka River, behind
22 the museum, which is right across the street from the Holiday Inn.
23 Q. Did you tour the lines?
24 A. I was never able to go to that location. It was forbidden for
25 anybody to go in there, any foreigners or journalists or humanitarians
1 were not allowed in that particular area.
2 Q. How do you know that the lines were there? Did you hear that or
3 did you see it for yourself?
4 A. I met some Bosnian soldiers who had told me about their
5 experiences there. They worked in that area.
6 Q. So we can conclude that that was where the positions of the BH
7 army were, in that area, the soldiers of the BH army; is that right?
8 A. Yes, about 100 metres away.
9 Q. When you say "about a hundred metres away," referring to their
10 positions, a hundred metres from what?
11 A. 100 metres from the front side of the Holiday Inn, about 200
12 metres from where the incident occurred that we're referring to in
13 these -- with the old woman and the girl.
14 Q. May I take it that the front line was at that point of 100 metres
16 A. From the front of the Holiday Inn, yes.
17 Q. What do you mean and how do you -- what is your definition of the
18 front line? What do you mean had you say "front"?
19 A. As it was described to me and as I saw it eventually, the front
20 line was the confrontation line dividing Republika Srpska forces and
21 Bosnian forces. In some places it was only 25 metres apart; in other
22 places there was maybe 100, 200, 300 metres in areas I never went to, but
23 I heard there was some distance between some of the lines. But the
24 Bosnians had a defensive line all the way around the city. United Nations
25 made a map of this and plotted any changes in that front line, whether
1 Serb advancements or Bosnian advancements or retreats.
2 Q. If I understand you correctly, the front line is the line between
3 the two warring parties, so we have two warring parties, we have the BH
4 army, and we have the army of Republika Srpska. Those are the two
5 parties. Now, on the map, in relation to the Holiday Inn, would you mark
6 the positions of the BH army and the positions of the army of Republika
7 Srpska. You say the distance was a hundred metres from Holiday Inn.
8 A. I note you're working with the larger map that I was working with
9 the other day. Can I have the larger map to point that out on?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the witness might mean the map
11 that he marked, which is not larger, but a larger-scale map.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to ask
14 the witness to mark the markings in this map, because we're going to use
15 that map later on in evidence, so this would avoid a misunderstanding.
16 Both the Prosecution and the Defence will be using that particular map.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course both maps are there to be
18 tendered into evidence, but if the Defence prefers to have the markings on
19 this map. But if the witness has any difficulty in marking, then he may
20 tell us, so that we can see whether the parties or the Chamber can assist
22 THE WITNESS: In fact, on this copy, it's already marked. The
23 front line is there. Do you have the same copy?
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't. I haven't got that
1 Q. But I should like to ask you if you could -- if we could zoom in
2 on the screen so we can see your markings better.
3 A. Okay. If you could come down to here, please, closer in. Where
4 these Xes are -- stop - Xs are, here's the Holiday Inn I'm pointing to
5 now and where these Xs are was the actual line on the Serb side on that
6 side of the river and on the Bosnian side, on this side of the river in
7 this line of buildings here.
8 Q. Can you mark -- can you put a line at the positions of the BH
9 army, draw a line, please, compared to the positions that you marked for
10 the army of Republika Srpska. You have marked in the positions of the
11 Republika Srpska army. Would you now indicate to us and mark the BH army
13 A. Yes, ma'am. If it's okay with you, I'll mark them in black Xs
14 and I'll make that Exhibit D2.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the marking, we are at D3, as far as I
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you just, let's say, use a dotted line. That will
19 be clear enough, even without any numbering of it.
20 A. Can you see that dotted line?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm able to see it.
22 A. [Marks] D3, we said, sir?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said it was not necessary, but since you
24 started, D3.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So taking the position from the Holiday Inn, we see that the
2 confrontation line is here, between the two warring parties, and that it
3 is 100 metres away from the Holiday Inn. Is that right? Do we agree on
4 that? That is, 100 to 150 metres, as you said. The lines were about 150
5 metres, stretched along -- stretching along the Miljacka River. Do you
6 agree with that description?
7 A. Yes, keeping many mind I did not actually see that front line, but
8 that's approximately the area.
9 Q. In respect to the positions, the BH army positions, behind them
10 were residential buildings; is that right? Would you show us the -- point
11 the Holiday Inn to us once again, please. Point the Holiday Inn out to
12 us, please.
13 A. There's the Holiday Inn. The nearest residential buildings I saw
14 were right here, these two buildings back here.
15 Q. Do you know what those two buildings were?
16 A. Yes. They were high apartment building, connected. There were
17 two buildings there and these were apartment buildings back here as well.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully suggest that
19 those buildings be marked in some way so that it becomes apparent for
20 those who might read the transcript later which buildings were indicated.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Ashton.
22 A. D4 were all apartment buildings, those buildings there. They were
23 occupied by civilians.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know whether there were any business buildings there, and
1 if so, could you mark them. What about the UNIS building, was that, the
2 UNIS company building?
3 A. That's over here. And these, the museum was directly across the
4 street from the Holiday Inn, of course. Down here was the university
5 complex. This was an office building, but I don't know what it was, and
6 then the congress tower was here.
7 Q. In this area where you pointed out the office blocks and the
8 apartment blocks, could you tell us whether there was a barracks there,
9 and if so, where?
10 A. The barracks is as you see right here, Tito barracks.
11 Q. Could you mark the barracks, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's marked D5, Tito barracks.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you happen to visit the barracks
16 at all?
17 A. Unfortunately, yes. I was taken to the barracks by the Bosnian
18 army once, for questioning.
19 Q. From your answer, we are able to conclude that the Bosnian army
20 was located in those barracks.
21 A. The Bosnian army was located in those barracks, and there was also
22 an UNPROFOR contained in the barracks. The Ukranians took over the north
23 end -- the east end was taken over by the Ukranian battalion, the Bosnians
24 were in these couple of buildings right here. The French before also took
25 over this area back in here, behind.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again I'd ask that the -- part of the
2 Tito barracks that were occupied by the Bosnian troops be indicated on the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Ashton.
5 THE WITNESS: D6.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You state that you were taken there for questioning and that you
8 were taken there by the army of Bosnian Serbs. How long did you spend in
9 the building when you were questioned?
10 A. Negative. I did not state that I was taken there by the Bosnian
11 Serbs. I was taken by the Bosnian army. Maybe that was an incorrect --
12 maybe a mis --
13 Q. You said the Bosnian soldiers, I believe.
14 A. Yes. I meant the Bosnian army.
15 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's what I meant too. Perhaps I misspoke.
16 You said, "The Bosnian soldiers took me to the barracks." Now, how long
17 did you stay at the barracks?
18 A. About one hour.
19 Q. May we then take it that in this part of the barracks where the
20 Bosnian army was located, that it was the headquarters of the Bosnian army
21 and that it was a military target? What would you say, according to you?
22 A. In all honesty, Ms. Pilipovic, I cannot say -- I cannot say it was
23 a target. However, I was taken there to an office of an officer to be
24 questioned, and I did not see any indication it was a headquarters, but I
25 didn't see any indication it was not either.
1 Q. But I think we agree that you were questioned by an officer. Was
2 he a military officer, an army officer?
3 A. Yes, ma'am. He was a uniformed Bosnian army officer.
4 Q. When you entered the building, was security provided for the
5 building by a service, that is to say, were there uniformed guards
6 providing security for the building?
7 A. There were soldiers in the hallway when I came into the building
8 and there was one soldier outside, yes.
9 Q. In front of the entrance to the building?
10 A. He was standing on the steps at the entrance of the building.
11 Q. Thank you. May I just go back for a moment to that second half of
12 the image, that is to say, the place you indicated. Could we move down
13 the map a bit. Further down, where it says "Grbavica." Further down to
14 "Grbavica." We agreed that that was where the front lines were, the
15 confrontation line, and that the distance was 100 metres between them.
16 You explained which buildings existed. Now, could you tell us, in this
17 area here, which buildings existed. What were the buildings in this area
18 here where it says "Grbavica," in the area where it says "Grbavica."
19 Further down, where it says "Grbavica."
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification at this moment?
21 In the translation it says that there was a hundred metres between the
22 lines of the respective forces. I have in my mind that the witness said
23 that the line was both sides of the river and approximately 100 metres
24 from the Holiday Inn hotel. I don't know whether I'm mistaken or not, but
25 could the witness just clarify this, whether there was a hundred metres
1 between the lines or -- Mr. Ashton.
2 A. My knowledge was only from information provided in conversations I
3 had with people. It was approximately 20 to 25, sometimes 30 metres in
4 that general area along that line. That line on the Bosnian side, the
5 Bosnian line itself was physically 100, 150 metres from the Holiday Inn.
6 Does that clarify the question, sir?
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that clarifies that the summary which was
8 contained in the question does not correspond with the answer given by you
10 Ms. Pilipovic, would you please see whether this urges you put any
11 other questions or to rephrase your question.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness,
13 looking at this section, where the front lines were. He explained to us
14 what he meant by the front lines and he marked in the positions of one
15 side and the positions of the other side. I don't think that is
16 contested. The Xs, or crosses, as far as I was able to understand, notes
17 the positions of the army of Republika Srpska and the other black line was
18 the BH army positions. And the witness has just indicated and marked in
19 the apartment blocks in that area, the residential buildings. Now my
20 question is: What residential buildings existed around where it says
21 "Grbavica," which means below the positions marked as the positions of
22 the Bosnian Serb army.
23 A. I understand the question. Okay. To my knowledge, I didn't go
24 into this area, but apparently to the -- this area where I am now, where
25 I'm pointing to now, there were a few apartment buildings next to the
1 university area here, in that area. I don't know how many civilians lived
2 in that -- or how many people lived in that area.
3 Q. Sir, I asked you about the area further down, where it says
4 "Grbavica." What apartment blocks or residential buildings existed
5 there, if there were any, and what kind? Lower down?
6 A. You mean over in this side of the line, is that what you're
7 referring to, ma'am?
8 Q. Yes, on that side of the line, further down?
9 A. Yes. Okay. There were several apartment buildings along here,
10 and two-, three-storey houses in the area as well, concrete blocks.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again that evidence will not make much
12 sense in the transcript. Could I respectfully suggest that it at least be
13 characterised in this way, that the witness has indicated some black
14 rectangles which appear on the map immediately below the line of purple
15 crosses and above the word "Grbavica," which appears printed on the map
16 and which has a purple circle cutting through the word. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that clarifies at least what the
18 witness has pointed out.
19 Please, Ms. Pilipovic, as far as possible, would you please always
20 ask the witness to mark on the map what he says, although I'm aware that
21 we might end up with a rather complicated map at the end. This also
22 brings me -- it's a quarter to 2.00 now --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness understood my
24 question, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was to mark in, in
2 the section where it says "Grbavica," which buildings existed and what
3 kind of buildings they were, if he's able to tell us.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please do so, Mr. Ashton, and then
5 we'll have a break, because the courtroom will be needed to be prepared
6 for the afternoon session.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. And also, Your Honour, it would help if I had
8 a finer-point black pen.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine. If you would just do this
11 THE WITNESS: D7 is an area which I visited, which is a
12 residential area --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: -- with military activity in it. I went to those
16 lines. There was quite a bit of military materiel mixed in.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think we'll have to stop at this
18 moment. I indicated to the parties that we'll not sit tomorrow. We will
19 be in courtroom 3 --
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- on Wednesday and we'll start at 9.00 in the
22 morning, and we'll adjourn until then. Would you please -- Mr. Usher,
23 could you please get the marked original back so that it's in the hands of
24 the registrar. As far as I'm aware, as of this moment we have still some
25 documents that have to be tendered into evidence, and it's the
1 black-and-white map, 3644, which will now be returned to the Registry.
2 We'll have -- that's a "P" document. We have P3641 still to be tendered.
3 That's a bundle of photos. We have P3645 and 3645-1, which is a premarked
4 map. And then as far as Defence exhibits are concerned, we have D12 still
5 to be tendered, a report of a statement given by Roy Thomas, and photos of
6 military equipment, D13 up until D21, D21 included.
7 So we'll stay in recess until Wednesday morning, 9.00.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of
10 January 2002, at 9.00 a.m.