1 Friday, 18 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone in this courtroom. Unless there are any
10 short additional observations after the Status Conference of yesterday --
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're standing. Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.
13 Very briefly, we have to raise a procedural issue regarding the documents
14 which were passed on to us through the Prosecution sometime during the
15 night and which have to do with the examination of a witness who is to be
16 heard very shortly. It's Mr. van Lynden. We don't know whether we should
17 discuss that now or before the witness comes. At your convenience, Your
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and we'll see
20 whether we deal with it now or at a later stage.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly. Thank you,
22 Mr. President. Again, this is becoming a strategy that is unacceptable
23 for the Defence, of translations which arrived only a few hours ago, and
24 it is impossible to work under those conditions. So I would like to make
25 an oral request --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- to your Chamber.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with that. I think we'll have to discuss
4 it among the Judges. At the same time, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I invited all
5 the parties to let me know yesterday whether they are missing whatever
6 translations or documents. I didn't hear from you at that time, and I
7 must assume that you had a copy in English of this statement and not the
8 translation you need. And I do understand you need it, but I would have
9 preferred to have been informed about it when we asked to be informed
10 about it, and I think we arranged the procedure where the parties would,
11 one week in advance, at least, compare whether all the documents are
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are quite
14 right to say that, but I don't see how I could inform you when I received
15 these translations during the night, between today and yesterday, after
16 our Status Conference, so I couldn't know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if there was any
18 document failing, as far as I understand. You did not have the
19 translation in due time, so it must have been missing when I asked you.
20 But we'll deal with it at another moment, and I'd like the Prosecution to
21 prepare for an explanation why this was not provided earlier.
22 Then I think at this moment the examination-in-chief of
23 Mr. Sehbajraktarevic could continue.
24 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic. Do you hear me
2 in a language you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Extremely well, thank
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. May I remind you that you are still
6 bound by the solemn declaration you made yesterday, and it's now Mr. Stamp
7 who will continue examining you.
8 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
9 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President.
10 WITNESS: FUAD SEHBAJRAKTAREVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued] .
13 Q. Were records kept of the burials done by the funeral home?
14 A. Yes, precise records, and these exist to this day.
15 Q. Now, typically, at what stage of the funeral process would the
16 records be made?
17 A. We wouldn't bury the dead or the killed until somebody came to
18 report the name, the date. There were only three cases with unknown
19 identity. We assumed they were Muslims.
20 Q. Now, were those records, or copies of those records, handed over
21 to staff from this Tribunal?
22 A. I handed things over to the security forces, because I had very
23 accurate records which I kept. I worked there throughout the war, and I
24 gave it to the Security Services Centre.
25 Q. Now, did these records indicate whether the deceased were members
1 of the military or part of the civilian population?
2 A. Yes. At the very beginning, not the military. The defence of the
3 country. There was no army. There was the Territorial Defence. And
4 after the first victims fell, the eight who were killed on the mountains
5 above the city, I thought it wouldn't last long, so I introduced the
6 special notebook, which is the same as a civilian one, with all the
7 particulars being entered. I filled in one, two, three, and there
8 were -- there was a total of 3.500 men on that list.
9 Q. Now, do you know where the records are today?
10 A. I have it at Bakije, in the funeral institute.
11 Q. And you said you handed over copies, accurate copies, of those
12 records to the security services; is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Prior to 1992, about how many people did you bury in an average
16 A. About 1.000.
17 Q. And which areas did your funeral home service prior to 1992?
18 A. Sarajevo was the centre of Bosnia, and whoever was treated in
19 Sarajevo and died there, we would drive the deceased to various towns in
20 Bosnia, even outside Bosnia, even to Macedonia. There were quite a number
21 of Albanians. So in fact, the whole of Yugoslavia was covered, if people
22 died in Sarajevo and we would drive them to their place of birth, if
24 Q. Now, approximately how many bodies did you bury throughout the
25 war, particularly between August, 1992, to September, 1994? Or I beg your
1 pardon, particularly between September, 1992, to August, 1994?
2 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I could tell you roughly: 8.000 to
3 9.000, because the overall total by the end of the war was 13.000 people
5 Q. Could you just explain to me, did you mean 13.000 people died or
6 did you bury 13.000 people?
7 A. We buried them, according to the documents that we still have,
8 that is in safekeeping. I have the records for the period before the war,
9 for each individual year. As I said, there was 1.000, on an average.
10 Q. What I'm asking you is when you said 13.000 people died during the
11 war, do you mean that your funeral home was responsible for the burial of
12 13.000 people?
13 A. Yes. Not responsible. We had to carry it out.
14 Q. I understand. Now, which areas did you service during the war?
15 A. The municipalities of Stari Grad, Centar, Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad
16 with the exception of Dobrinja, which was under siege for several months
17 until the road was opened.
18 Q. Those municipalities that you mentioned, those were the
19 municipalities within the confrontation lines of Sarajevo; is that
21 A. Yes, yes, precisely so.
22 Q. Now, on average, can you recall about approximately how many
23 bodies you buried on any given day during the war?
24 A. The average was about 15 funerals. That was the average but
25 sometimes there would be five and sometimes 50.
1 Q. Now, do you know if there were Muslim burials throughout the war
2 apart from the ones that were carried out by your funeral home?
3 A. These municipalities, no.
4 Q. You said that Dobrinja was under siege for several months. Did
5 you manage to conduct funerals for persons from Dobrinja?
6 A. Yes. Later, when we could reach it. Of course, in spite of all
7 difficulties, you'd go there, pick up the body, and come back, and then
8 you'd tell the family that the funeral would be on such-and-such a day.
9 Those that were buried in Dobrinja, in parks and various other places, we
10 exhumed later about 50 per cent of those.
11 Q. Now, how many funeral homes were operating in Sarajevo during the
13 A. The Pokop enterprise, which is the municipal enterprise founded by
14 the Assembly at the time, and us. But Pokop didn't have any vehicles.
15 The Municipal Assembly gave them one only towards the end.
16 Q. Were there funeral homes that conducted funeral rites for Croats
17 and Serbs?
18 A. That is what they did before the war. They did everything except
19 the Muslims and the atheists.
20 Q. Now, how were you notified to pick up bodies for burial?
21 A. Either a family member comes, or you happen to pass by in a
22 vehicle, or the police reports it, or the military later on, the army.
23 Q. And how did you pick up the victims?
24 A. In a vehicle, and we would just risk it.
25 Q. You risked what?
1 A. Well, risking whether the driver would come back alive or not.
2 Q. What is the danger that the driver faced?
3 A. Of course there was danger. As you passed along the Titova
4 Street, you had the protection of the buildings on either side. As soon
5 as you reach Marin Dvor, it's all over. Grbavica, there are snipers that
6 can hit you from any side. At the beginning, from the Marsal Tito
7 barracks, there was an enormous amount of fire. It was terrible.
8 Q. Thank you. So I take it that you mean there was a danger of
10 A. Snipers and shells. The barracks was full of snipers. They had
11 sandbags and they would watch from behind them. They had a good
12 overview. By then the telephones were working and the ambulance service
13 would tell us to come, and we didn't know how to reach them. And then
14 we'd go round about -- the roundabout way behind the railway station and
15 we'd pick up 10 to 15 people. We didn't even know the names.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, how -- or may I put it this way:
17 During the war, where did you bury the victims?
18 A. All the old cemeteries of Sarajevo were dug up again, and they
19 were protected by the buildings. The only danger was from the shelling.
20 Q. Now, did you make any changes in the nature and the length of the
21 burial rites during the war?
22 A. We shortened the rites to a bare minimum, just the basics. You
23 have to bathe a man in our religion, except for soldiers. A civilian has
24 to be bathed, wrapped up in a sheet, and then have a funeral.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. In respect to the rites at the burial place,
1 were there any changes in the length of the ceremony during the war?
2 A. Non-stop, day and night.
3 Q. Could you explain what you mean by "non-stop, day and night"?
4 A. The rite itself is always the same, only it was shortened. There
5 weren't so many prayers. But the way we worked, the transport, digging of
6 the graves themselves, we would dig them during the night.
7 Q. Why did you dig them during the night?
8 A. Except those two cases of the Budakovici. I've forgotten now the
9 name. Fatima Karcic, I think her name was. At her funeral, a shell
10 fell. It was about 4.00 p.m. A shell fell, hit the plum tree, and killed
11 eight people on the spot. They died later in hospital. My men went there
12 to pick up the bodies, and that is how I know. And then the Municipal
13 Assembly gave me orders to do it at night, though it was better to do that
14 at night, but it was much quieter at night and much safer.
15 Q. So I take it you mean it was better for you to bury the bodies at
16 night because it was safer?
17 A. Yes. You can't see anything. Sarajevo was in darkness, and then
18 you would be safe. You don't switch on the light in the car either.
19 Q. Now, this funeral which you speak of which was shelled, resulting
20 in eight deaths, do you remember what year that funeral took place?
21 A. I should know the exact date. In 1993. Was it June or -- I could
22 inquire. I have the date in my office.
23 Q. It was in 1993, around June?
24 A. Something like that. It was in the summer, anyway.
25 Q. And could you just tell me the name of the place where that
1 funeral was?
2 A. Budakovici. It's near the hospital, beneath the hospital, a large
3 cemetery which we have had to dig up entirely.
4 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that there was sniping at your vehicles
5 from the Marsal Tito barracks. At the time of these snipings, which party
6 in the conflict was in control of these barracks?
7 A. The soldiers of the Yugoslav Army, the Yugoslav Army. In the
8 military hospital upstairs, they were shooting, and also those inside.
9 What was the name of that general? I think he came from Voyvodina. I
10 used to know that name.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Did you notice any emotional or
12 psychological effects resulting from the shelling and sniping of civilians
13 in Sarajevo?
14 A. Well, that's quite obvious.
15 Q. We weren't there. Could you please just tell us, so we could
16 record what you noticed, tell us what you observed about the emotional
17 state of the people as a result of shelling and sniping?
18 A. At first, you would hide, you would run, left and right. You'd
19 try and seek shelter. But later on, you became indifferent as to whether
20 you got hit or not. As soon as the shelling stopped, people would come
21 out into the street. It's like madness. Everything was disturbed.
22 Nothing was normal.
23 Q. And did you notice any changes that these emotional effects had on
24 the population over time?
25 A. Not really, to tell you the truth. I didn't notice these things.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I just took care of my work. I didn't have time for these things.
2 Q. How about you personally? Is there anything today that inspires
3 any emotions about the war?
4 A. I wasn't even aware of what was happening. I get frightened now
5 thinking about it, wondering how we survived, both me and my family.
6 There were six hits. Three came from a cannon, and three, I don't know
7 what you call them, I never served in the army, also 84 millimetres or
8 something, shells.
9 Q. These six hits that you speak of were where?
10 A. One in the roof, one in the balcony and two right through the
11 building. Who they were targeting, I don't know. Maybe there is a --
12 there was a singer living next to me. Maybe they were trying to target
14 Q. I see. I take it that the building you speak of was your home?
15 A. Yes, my family home. My grandfather's, it used to be.
16 Q. Finally, is there anything today that can take you back or remind
17 you of that time when your home was shelled and your vehicles were sniped
19 A. Fortunately, I've forgotten all that.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic.
21 That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
23 Ms. Pilipovic, you may cross-examine the witness.
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Good morning to you, Witness.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. During your -- the testimony yesterday, when asked by my learned
4 friends, you said where your company, the Bakije company, was located and
5 you said that it was at Bascarsija?
6 A. Yes, in the centre of town.
7 Q. Could you tell us what street?
8 A. It was the former Milosa Obilica Street, and it is now called
9 Safetbega Basagica Street. There is the mosque, and then we are right by,
10 near the mosque.
11 Q. You said that your building was shelled?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Could you tell us when that happened?
14 A. August, 1992, until when the post office was hit.
15 Q. So you said before August, 1992?
16 A. Well, you can check it out. I'm not quite sure when the post
17 office was hit, but that's when it was.
18 Q. Were you in the building when this happened?
19 A. No. It happened during the night, but all the windows were
20 cracked, the glass shattered, the vehicles were bullet-ridden. It was --
21 came from about 30 metres away.
22 Q. Did a team of experts come to ascertain what had happened and was
23 a record of the event made?
24 A. You mean Bakije?
25 Q. I mean the building.
1 A. You mean the post office?
2 Q. No, your building, the building that was shelled.
3 A. No, of course not. Nobody knew -- nobody had time to do things
4 like that.
5 Q. Did you inform the authorities, the police, for example, that your
6 building had been shelled?
7 A. Well, you could see it. Everybody knew that. People would come
8 there to bury people every day. Everybody knew about it. They came to
9 bury their people every day. They said the -- it was on the news that the
10 post office at Bascarsija had been hit it.
11 Q. Were there any soldiers around your building?
12 A. No, not at all.
13 Q. Today, asked by my learned friend, you said that the areas of
14 Stari Grad, Centar, Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad, and later on Dobrinja, were
15 municipalities where your company, Bakije, buried people. You said that
16 these areas were within the confrontation lines?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you tell us what confrontation lines they were, what kind?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Did you see them? Were you up at the front lines, the
21 confrontation lines?
22 A. No. I just went to below the line in 1992. After that, we didn't
23 have to go there. We went to the places that were safer, and then we
24 would bring the bodies up to Bakije. Soldiers would carry down their
1 Q. Could you tell me what you mean when you say "subline"?
2 A. Below the line, I mean. The line's up here, we are down there.
3 Q. Who do you mean when you say "we"?
4 A. The defenders, the people who could come down to that point.
5 Q. Could you explain to me what you mean when you say "we, the
6 defenders"? What do you mean when you say "we, the defenders"?
7 A. The defenders of the city, and I was a member of one of the
9 Q. Whose service?
10 A. The service of those defenders.
11 Q. Were those defenders at set positions, and did you see them?
12 A. Yes, of course I would see them, not up at the lines but in town.
13 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?
14 A. Not at the beginning, no. For two years, I'm quite sure they
15 didn't have any uniforms, and later I saw some of them in uniforms, except
16 their leaders who would walk about town.
17 Q. When did you see them for the first time?
18 A. I saw them for the -- the president of the municipality and
19 Stjepan Kljujic for the first time in 1992 wearing uniforms, camouflage
20 uniforms. I didn't know they had them. I knew the olive-green grey
21 uniforms, but that was the first time I saw people in camouflage uniforms.
22 Q. When was that in 1992?
23 A. Well, the weather was fine, so it must have been summer.
24 Q. When did you see the other people?
25 A. Which other people?
1 Q. The defenders.
2 A. Well, of course, when they were killed. They would come in
3 wearing tracksuits, jeans. They were children, they were young people,
4 most of them very young.
5 Q. Were they armed?
6 A. No, they had nothing.
7 Q. Did any of these, as you call them, branitelji, defenders, did you
8 see them with weapons at all, ever?
9 A. Yes, when they would go up the hill. Every fifth person would
10 have a rifle and they would go past my house. I would see those people.
11 Every fifth person would have a rifle and probably a Kalashnikov.
12 Q. Where was your own house located?
13 A. Near the Alifakovac cemetery.
14 Q. What district of Sarajevo is that?
15 A. It's the Stari Grad district, Alikovac, right there. My house is
16 50 metres away from that.
17 Q. You said that your house was shelled six times?
18 A. Yes, six times, that's right.
19 Q. When was it shelled the first time?
20 A. The first time in 1992, when it started. One of the first shells
21 hit the roof of my house, and the terrace.
22 Q. Did you see -- were you in the house when the shell hit?
23 A. Yes, I was. I was in my house.
24 Q. Did you see the direction the shell was coming from?
25 A. How could I know that? Nobody could keep track of things like
2 Q. What about the other five times? Did you see where the shell --
3 did you see the shell coming?
4 A. No. I just saw what it had done. It had shattered the roof. I
5 would say that it came from Grbavica. But that wasn't a shell; it was a
6 gun, from a gun, fired from a gun. And the second time was on the roof as
8 Q. Did you see the gun?
9 A. Of course I couldn't see the gun. I didn't do my military
10 service. I'm just saying "guns," you know. I don't know what type they
11 were. People who did their military service know about things like that.
12 My sons did their military service, so they might know.
13 Q. So you say you never saw the gun that you say targeted your house?
14 A. No, never. I never saw it. Or perhaps I did see it but didn't
15 know what it was.
16 Q. You knew it was a gun because other people told you it was?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Near your house -- were the confrontation lines near your house?
19 A. No. No. They were much further off, further up, in fact.
20 Perhaps 30 minutes on foot you would need to reach that place.
21 Q. What place?
22 A. The lines.
23 Q. Were you at the lines?
24 A. I was below the lines.
25 Q. When you say "below the lines," that means what? What do you
1 mean? What are you comparing it to? Below what?
2 A. I mean nearer town, nearer the house rather than up there.
3 Q. Where you were, as you say, below the line, were there any
4 soldiers there?
5 A. Well, they would change places. Some of them would go off and
6 other people would replace them. There was a centre feed and then they
7 would go up to Trebevic.
8 Q. Did you talk to those people?
9 A. Of course I did. I would say, "How are you?" "What's
10 happening?" "Anybody hit?" Things like that.
11 Q. Did you know which military unit they belonged to?
12 A. I assumed it was the brigade. What was its name? He was killed
13 later on. Kljujic, I think, the 10th Brigade. That was the one that
14 catered to our region. I think that's what it was, but you can ask people
15 from the army. They will be able to answer you better.
16 Q. You said that there was sniping from the Marsal Tito barracks.
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. When did that happen?
19 A. That was in 1992, until the army withdrew from the barracks.
20 Q. When in 1992? Can you be more specific?
21 A. No, I really don't know. I just remember that there was this
22 General. He was from Vojvodina.
23 Q. Were you personally there?
24 A. Well, I passed by very quickly in a car once to save my own skin.
25 Q. You said there was shooting from the army hospital.
1 A. Yes, that's right, from the roof. The army was still in Sarajevo
2 at that time.
3 Q. Did you yourself see the shooting?
4 A. Yes, I did see that, yes. Marin Dvor they were shooting.
5 Q. Did you see anybody target the hospital at that time?
6 A. Well, I watched it on television, and you could see it quite
7 clearly, that part of Marin Dvor, quite clearly from my own house.
8 Q. When was that?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. But you just said that this was from Trebevic. Was it the foot of
11 Mount Trebevic or higher up?
12 A. Well, you can't really see it from where we are. You can see
13 Vidikovac and the slope towards Vrace. At Vidikovac there was a tank. I
14 saw that. And they shot. I saw the tank shoot quite clearly, but where
15 it shot at, I don't know. And as to the guns, I really can't say where
16 they were.
17 Q. When did that happen?
18 A. Well, every year. It happened every year. It was very
20 Q. When you saw the tank fire, did you inform anybody that there was
21 a tank up at Vidikovac?
22 A. Well, everybody knew that. You could see it, you could hear it.
23 You could hear the shell whizzing past.
24 Q. In the city of Sarajevo - and you said that your company was
25 located in the centre of town - did you ever happen to see a tank in town?
1 A. You mean in the town of Sarajevo? No, I never saw a tank in the
2 town of Sarajevo.
3 Q. Did you see armed soldiers?
4 A. Yes. The Yugoslav army while it was there.
5 Q. Up until when?
6 A. Well, while the barracks was there, the Marsal Tito barracks.
7 Q. Do you happen to know that a large number of soldiers and officers
8 were killed in the barracks?
9 A. I don't know about that.
10 Q. Do you happen to know that when the army withdrew from the
11 barracks, that the army was shot at and that more than 20 soldiers and
12 officers were killed on that occasion?
13 A. I don't know. I'm not a soldier. Those are military matters.
14 Q. When you mentioned the Budakovici case, you said that was in June
16 A. Well, I'm sure the date has been recorded and the name and surname
17 of the woman killed.
18 Q. But you said you didn't see that personally, that happen
20 A. Well, afterwards, I went to see what had happened when they were
21 carrying down the dead, and that's why I'm testifying as to that. As to
22 the rest, I don't know.
23 Q. So you didn't see where the shell came from?
24 A. Of course I didn't. How would I know? It fell from the sky.
25 It's not a plane. It doesn't go slowly.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, did you ever see a Serb soldier?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you see or hear that anybody had issued an order for the
4 shelling of the Budakovici cemetery?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know where the shell came from, the one that hit Budakovici
8 A. How would I know that? No, I don't. Of course I don't.
9 Q. So you just heard about that?
10 A. Well, I saw that it had fallen and killed the people, and I took
11 them off to hospital and then buried them the next day, two to begin with,
12 three later on.
13 Q. Did you see the shell falling, actually falling?
14 A. No. I just saw what happened, the consequences of that hit.
15 Q. Were you told where the shell had come from?
16 A. What would I care? I didn't even ask.
17 Q. So you don't know where that particular shell came from. In
18 respect to the Budakovici cemetery, do you know whether the confrontation
19 lines were close by?
20 A. I know that the Spicasta Stijena was there. It's very well
21 known. But that's quite a way off too.
22 Q. I apologise. You mentioned Spicasta Stijena.
23 A. Yes, that infamous or -- famous or infamous Spica, because lots of
24 people were killed there, whole families, killed by snipers.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see that the
1 interpreters seem to be a bit lost. Could the witness please slow down.
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your assistance,
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Of course, I have some difficulties, since I cannot
5 follow the original language, so I'm grateful for that.
6 Mr. Sehbajraktarevic, could you please look at the screen in front
7 of you and only start answering the question once the text does not move
8 any more, because the interpreters need some time --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I know. It's English.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So as soon as it stops moving, please then answer the
11 question. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. Thank you.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You have told us that it was the famous or infamous
15 Spicasta Stijena. Why was it well known? What was it known by?
16 A. The sniper.
17 Q. During the conflict, were you ever up there?
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 Q. Were there any soldiers there?
20 A. Where? Where do you mean?
21 Q. I didn't hear what you said, Witness.
22 A. Where do you mean, soldiers?
23 Q. At Spicasta Stijena.
24 A. Well, there might have been three snipers there, but it was fairly
25 well hidden. What was going on behind it, I can't say.
1 Q. When you were up there at Spicasta Stijena, who were you with?
2 A. I went to see a carpenter whose child had been killed. He lives
3 three houses away from the stijena, and I asked him how he managed to get
4 to his house.
5 Q. Did you see any soldiers there?
6 A. No, you couldn't see that.
7 Q. Do you know that the confrontation lines were up there?
8 A. I don't know. It's none of my business. I really don't know.
9 Nothing to do with me.
10 Q. You said that you kept records.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you were up there at Spicasta Stijena, you said you were
13 visiting the carpenter. Did I understand you correctly?
14 A. Yes. We were waiting for things to calm down and then ...
15 Q. Had the carpenter lost a family member?
16 A. Yes, his son. He was 17 or 18. And then I had to go,
18 Q. Did he say where his son had been killed?
19 A. Yes. In front of his house.
20 Q. How far is the house from Spicasta Stijena?
21 A. I've just said: three or four houses away. It's not my part,
22 it's not where I live, but three or four houses away.
23 Q. How many metres or kilometres is it from Spicasta Stijena?
24 A. Well, I don't know. A hundred metres, 50, 60 metres. Like this,
25 like the door over there.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
2 like to show the witness a map for him to indicate the exact location of
3 Spicasta Stijena. The map's number is 3544A, the map which has no
4 markings. I should like to ask the witness to indicate, to mark on the
5 map where Spicasta Stijena is and the house.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, could you please, Ms. Pilipovic, in
7 view of Rule 90(H), explain to us, because this is not covered by the
8 examination-in-chief. I do not see at this moment, but please tell me if
9 I'm mistaken, whether this has got to do anything with the reliability of
10 the witness. And if not, the third option might be that --
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes to what, Ms. Pilipovic? You say yes, but ...
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness, during
14 his testimony, and in response to my questions, spoke about the
15 confrontation lines, and it was within that framework, that is to say, the
16 existence of confrontation lines, that I asked him what happened with the
17 Budakovici cemetery. He said it was shelled. He said he knew the
18 confrontation lines, and I asked him whether the confrontation lines were
19 close to the cemetery. And then the witness went on to mention the
20 landmark, Spicasta Stijena, or sharp rock. And to test his credibility, I
21 asked the witness to mark on the map, because he knows where
22 Spicasta Stijena is and he was there, where it was located.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Underneath Spicasta Stijena.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Well, would you tell us where it was, what particular location
1 below Spicasta Stijena?
2 A. Yes, I will.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence feels that this is
4 relevant because the witness had been speaking about the confrontation
5 lines and the existence of shelling, instances of shelling and sniping.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first just check what exactly the
7 witness said about confrontation lines in relation to Spicasta Stijena.
8 One moment, please.
9 Could you please follow me, Ms. Pilipovic? It's on my laptop
10 computer and there is a slight difference in time. 9:48:54, the witness
11 has told this Court, a few lines before, "I went to see a carpenter whose
12 child had been killed. He lives three houses away from Stijena and I
13 asked him how he managed to get to his house." "Did you see any soldiers
14 there," was the next question. "No, you couldn't see that." And your
15 question was, "Do you know that the confrontation lines were up there?"
16 And the answer was, "I don't know. It's none of my business. I really
17 don't know. Nothing to do with me."
18 So I think if you want the witness to point at the place, either
19 the house of the carpenter, and you would like to bring this into relation
20 with the witness's knowledge of confrontation lines, I will not allow you
21 to do this because the witness has testified that he had no knowledge of
22 these confrontation lines. And when I look at the screen, you explained
23 to this Court that the relevance of the question was that - and I'm
24 literally quoting - "It is relevant because the witness has been speaking
25 about the confrontation lines and the existence of shelling instances, of
1 shelling and sniping." So if you want to test the reliability of this
2 witness on confrontation lines, I cannot allow you to do so because he has
3 said he knew nothing about it.
4 If there is any other relevant issue, please explain to the
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness also said
7 during his testimony with respect to Spicasta Stijena said, "the famous
8 Spicasta Stijena." Now I'm going to ask him now why he used the word
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think you asked him already.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Parla family.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate the line where he said this
13 so we can check it?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't find the line
15 on the screen now but he said, "the famous Spicasta Stijena."
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check that. One moment, please.
17 MR. STAMP: Perhaps if I could assist, on the English text, I
18 think it is page 19, line 23.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 19, 23.
20 MR. STAMP: Is my friend referring to the English text?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was saying at 9.00, 47.42
22 minutes and seconds.
23 THE REGISTRAR: I think your laptop has a different time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You said 9.47?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: 9.47.42.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you're talking about "famous Spicasta Stijena"
2 I've got it on 9.47, where I read, "You've told us that it was the famous
3 or infamous Spicasta Stijena. Why was it well known? What was it known
4 by?" And the answer was, "The sniper." I don't know whether there was
5 any other place where "famous" was --
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist, because I have the
7 LiveNote in front of me, on page 19 at line 23 of the English transcript.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. 19, 23.
9 MR. IERACE: You will see the first reference by the witness to
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the first.
12 MR. IERACE: And why.
13 JUDGE ORIE: "That famous or infamous Spica, because lots of
14 people were killed there, whole families killed by snipers." That's what
15 it says in the English translation. So ...
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question will be
17 as follows: Does the witness have knowledge of, and if so, how does he
18 come to know that that Spicasta Stijena was well known by the evil things
19 that happened?
20 A. The Parla family was -- all the members were killed. Maybe one
21 member survived. He was out in the garden tending to his plot of land and
22 they hit.
23 Q. Did you go to visit the family?
24 A. No, but he's close by to the carpenter.
25 Q. How far were they away from that spot?
1 A. The first, right next door.
2 Q. Can you tell us approximately?
3 A. About 30 metres. They were neighbours and they could hear each
4 other speak when people would come up to Sarajevo -- from Sarajevo. The
5 new shift is coming shortly, and then you can do the digging.
6 Q. You just said, "Others are coming to the line." Could you explain
7 that a bit?
8 A. The new shift, the people coming from Serbia for the weekend, they
9 were the worst. That was when the shelling and shooting was the worst.
10 Then the neighbours would let us know, and they'd say, "We won't be here
11 so look out."
12 Q. Did you hear that?
13 A. No. I heard it from soldiers who were up there talking to them.
14 Q. Which soldiers?
15 A. Our soldiers, those who were up there in trenches.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that in that part, near the
17 Spicasta Stijena, that there were soldiers there, that you spoke to?
18 A. No, no. The citizens, these Parla family, they would exchange
19 words with them. They would communicate with them.
20 Q. Would you agree with me that close to this Parla family house were
21 soldiers that they spoke to?
22 A. Yes. They were up there on that rock, and they would let them
23 know when they should look out, and then they came out and got killed.
24 Q. They were having those conversations with soldiers near
25 Spicasta Stijena?
1 A. Yes, on Spicasta Stijena, and they were below them.
2 Q. So it was so close that they could talk to each other?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. You told us that you kept records of the persons you
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How did you note down the particulars of the deceased person?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Could you explain what actually particulars you noted down in your
11 A. The first and last names, the year of birth, the name of the
12 father, the mother, the wife, if he had one, the place of birth, year of
13 birth, address, place where he was killed, and place where he's buried.
14 Q. You said that you have all that -- those data in your possession?
15 A. All of them.
16 Q. Did you provide them to anyone, if you did, to look at?
17 A. Yes. I have those books, and I won't give them to anyone, but I
18 gave a computer tape to the Security Services Centre. They copied it and
19 returned it to me.
20 Q. Could you explain what you mean by the CSB, the Centre of the
21 Security Service?
22 A. It is the police. That's the name of the police.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has been
24 served by the Prosecution a document, D30000754, and on that disk, there
25 is a list of victims from 1992 to 1996. That is the names of the people
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 who were buried by the Bakije funeral parlour. From that disk, we have
2 copied some information, and I have sufficient copies for my learned
3 friends opposite, for Your Honours and the witness, simply for the witness
4 to look at this document and see whether this information has been copied
5 from the information he gave to the police and if he could explain to us a
6 certain detail from this table.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may show it to the witness and, Mr. Usher,
8 could you please take the copies? That would be -- you intend to tender
9 it into evidence, Ms. Pilipovic?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall first ask the
11 witness whether this data come from the records he kept. We would like
12 him to identify the document first.
13 A. Where is Kobilja Glava here?
14 Q. The document consists of 402 pages.
15 A. The letter "C" stands for civilian, and the letter "B" for
17 Q. So that is how you kept your records?
18 A. Yes. For me, a soldier was someone when he showed me that he
19 belonged to the Territorial Defence, so I made a very clear distinction,
20 and I kept the document for each of the soldier that the responsible
21 authority, whether it was the municipality or the commander, they issued
22 these documents.
23 Q. So in your records, you know exactly how many civilians were
24 buried and how many soldiers were buried?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. On the basis of your recollection, your best recollection, could
2 you tell us how many soldiers were buried?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you allow me to interfere, the
4 Registrar just indicates to me that there has been distributed two
5 different pages, so we are not just talking about one, but you gave to the
6 registry one, and I will read the first number on the left, top corner,
7 one indicating 00776, but another one 07233, which bears a line at the
8 bottom, page 2. The other one I just mentioned, so the 00776 one, bears
9 page 1. Could you please indicate and perhaps have the list being put on
10 the ELMO? You told us that you distribute one page, and we are now
11 confronted with two different pages.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has prepared, in
13 sufficient copies -- could you just give me the beginning of the
14 number 00 -- let me just check, 00776?
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the one which bears page 1 at the bottom, and
16 the Registry has also been provided with another page, but do I understand
17 here now you're cross-examining the witness on page 1, left, top
18 corner, 00776?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Page 00776.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'll ask the usher to get this page 2 and
21 return it to the -- to Ms. Pilipovic. I would highly appreciate a high
22 degree of precision on these kind of matters.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm doing my best but
24 the conditions under which we are working are rather difficult.
25 Q. So here where it says "Status," that the letter "C" stands for a
1 civilian and the letter "B" for combatant.
2 A. A defence member.
3 Q. Can you tell us, for the period from 1992, from September 1992
4 until August 1992, how many, in your estimate, if you're able - if not, of
5 course, you don't know - how many were soldiers and how many were
6 civilians? And can this be seen from your records?
7 A. I don't know for that period, but from the beginning, from April
8 1992 until the Dayton Agreements, we buried about three and a half
9 thousand soldiers, and the rest were civilians.
10 Q. You're telling us that the data -- or do you claim that the data
11 entered in your book have been faithfully copied on the floppy disk which
12 was taken from you from the CSB?
13 A. They didn't take it from me. They asked for it and I gave it to
14 them, and they returned to me the book. That is the greatest good fortune
15 in this general misfortune. I have all the notebooks in my possession.
16 Q. Have you reviewed the floppy disk to compare the two?
17 A. No, I haven't. What could they have done? I don't know.
18 Q. Did you sign anywhere that what they printed off the floppy disk
19 is identical to what you have in the original?
20 A. No. No. I was just -- I just received it from them after they
21 had finished with it.
22 Q. So as far as I understand, everything that was in your notebook
23 you copied on a floppy disk?
24 A. Yes, and I kept my notebooks.
25 Q. So you are claiming that everything that is entered in your book
1 of records of the buried has been copied onto the floppy disk?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Defence, please. Microphone.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this
5 document, Your Honours, as Defence Exhibit D27.
6 Your Honour, my colleague tells me that it is not clear from the
7 transcript how many were soldiers and how many were civilians among the
8 buried. May I ask the witness this question once again to tell us how
9 many soldiers were buried and how many civilians?
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think the answer has been given as far as soldiers
11 are concerned, and earlier in his testimony the witness answered the
12 question on how many people in total were buried. So I think the
13 transcript gives us no problem, but if there's any translation problem ...
14 But of course, if you'd like him to make the totalling of numbers, which
15 of course is quite obvious, that -- I think he talked about 13.000. If
16 you say three and a half of them were soldiers, I would guess that 9.500
17 would be civilians. But if you want to ask him, of course, please go
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. So you said that there were three and a half thousand soldiers.
21 A. I can't know exactly, but about three and a half thousand.
22 Q. And in your estimate, how many civilians were buried?
23 A. Nine, nine and a half thousand.
24 Q. Did you have the particulars of those nine and a half thousand
25 civilians as to the cause of death?
1 A. When I remembered, I put down "shell" in my notebook. So it's not
2 complete regarding the cause of death.
3 Q. So you don't have complete information for civilians?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So you abide by what you said, that you buried people from outside
7 A. Before the war.
8 Q. And during the war?
9 A. Only if he happened to be there.
10 Q. Did you also bury civilians who were not -- who had no injuries?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If a person -- did you have proof for that person, a death
14 A. Yes. We have our own doctor, Dr. Zvornik [phoen].
15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. Not Dr. Zvornik. I'm
16 correcting -- the interpreter corrects herself.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did your doctor establish the cause of death for each person that
19 you buried, in writing, stating the cause of death, whether it was natural
20 causes or violent causes?
21 A. Yes. That is his job.
22 Q. Did you take note of that in your records?
23 A. Yes. There is the doctor's note in the records regarding the
24 cause of death.
25 Q. Was that doctor working throughout in your company?
1 A. Yes, throughout.
2 Q. Could you perhaps tell us the name of that doctor?
3 A. Dr. Faruk Sokolovic. He's still employed at Bakije.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
5 further questions, but we would like to tender an excerpt from this floppy
6 disk, the paper beginning with 00776, the printout, be tendered as a
7 Defence Exhibit, as the witness has identified it and confirmed that under
8 the heading "Status," they entered an indication as to whether the buried
9 person was a civilian or a soldiers. That is page 1, beginning with the
10 number 00776, indicated in the left-hand corner. And in the right-hand
11 corner, we see the words "Kobilja Glava."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. Any of the
13 colleagues at this moment -- any questions? Yes, please, Judge Elmahdi.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE ELMAHDI: Witness, if possible, could you please specify for
16 me whether you indeed said, in reply to a question, and I quote: [In
17 English] "You said there was shooting from the army hospital."
18 [Interpretation] And your answer was: [In English] "Yes, I did see that."
19 [Interpretation] The army hospital, who controlled it and who was doing
20 the shooting?
21 A. In those days, it was under the control of the Yugoslav army and
22 General Kukanjac.
23 JUDGE ELMAHDI: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness would like to add something
25 or -- please go ahead.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In those days, we had access to the
2 military hospital, and they were very fair in their treatment, and we
3 managed to transport quite a large number of people who died there at the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. -- I have difficulties in pronouncing
6 your name. Mr. Sehbajraktarevic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's difficult.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I also have another question in relation to the list
9 that just has been given to you. I see different entries on that list,
10 and Ms. Pilipovic has asked you a question about status, "C" or "B." I
11 see that left from the column indicating status, it says "spol." I have
12 no translation. Perhaps the interpreter could translate the word "spol"
13 for me.
14 THE INTERPRETER: "Sex," Your Honour.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "M," "male," male or female.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Male or female. And then the last column is
18 THE INTERPRETER: "Place," Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreter tells us that that is "place." Could
20 you please indicate to us what this place indicates. Is that the place
21 where the person was buried or whatever other place?
22 A. Place of burial. Place of burial.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You just told us that you indicated
24 sometimes also, at least not in detail, but some information about the
25 cause of death. Would that information appear on this list as well, or is
1 it registered somewhere else?
2 A. Only in the notebooks that I have.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
4 If there's any need for re-examination, Mr. Stamp, please
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
8 Q. Firstly, you spoke of a family in Spicasta -- in the sharp rock,
9 Spicasta Stijena, that was killed. That was the Parla family. That
10 family lived on which side of the confrontation line?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the witness has indicated that he didn't
12 know anything about the confrontation lines, so this is a question which
13 suggests that he would have knowledge of that.
14 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I'm guided by your comment.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then rephrase the question or put another
16 question to the witness.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. You said you were a member of the service of the defenders. Your
19 work as a member of the service was to pick up the bodies and bury them;
20 is that correct?
21 A. What defence do you mean? Member of the defence? What do you
23 Q. You said you were a member of the service of the defenders.
24 A. Yes, yes. Service. I serviced them. I was not a member. I was
25 a manager of the service working for the army. We had to do that. There
1 was no choice. I had to bury the dead.
2 Q. Thank you very much. So your service was to bury the dead?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, you said that from April 1992 until the Dayton Accord, you
5 buried three and a half thousand soldiers. How were you able to calculate
6 or to come to this approximation?
7 A. Well, there's the number. There's the ordinal number in the
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. I take it you mean you went through your notebook and tallied them
13 A. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
14 Q. Now, the document which was shown to you just now, the first
15 column at the left, could you tell us what that column represents?
16 A. I really don't know. Even I don't know. What is this? It
17 doesn't seem to be in order. I really don't know. This is as much
18 information as I could obtain for each burial. As for what was put here
19 in front, I really don't know. In my notebook, it goes 1, 2, 3, onwards,
20 in order. So I don't know. Who gave you this? Where did this come
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was received by
23 the Defence from the Prosecution. All I can do is give my learned friends
24 a copy of the floppy disk. Maybe we can tender that into evidence so that
25 there should be no dispute as to the source of the document.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there's a different problem,
2 whether anything has been added to the documentation given by the witness
3 to who finally transferred it to the Prosecution team. I think that's the
4 problem. It's not a problem whether -- for the time being, I accept that
5 you have the same data on the disks. So I don't think that this would be
6 a good idea at this moment, but please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: It is indeed not a problem. It will become clear as
8 to the contents of that floppy disk when the evidence unfolds.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll wait and see, then. Thank you.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. In other words, you supplied certain names and information, but
12 this particular document, you did not prepare this yourself?
13 A. Which document? This one?
14 Q. That one in your hands, yes.
15 A. My staff member did it. He copied it out from the notebook.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
17 like to clarify a point. The witness said that whatever he noted down in
18 his notebook was copied onto the floppy disk and that he gave the floppy
19 disk to the police. I think there's no dispute over that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing is what happened afterwards with the
21 data on this floppy disk, and as far as I understand, the Prosecution will
22 present the evidence at a later stage of what exactly happened to this
23 data as they have been provided for by Mr. Sehbajraktarevic.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. May I just clarify one thing, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic? Did you give
1 a floppy disk to the CSB?
2 A. I did. And everything is just like this in the notebooks, except
3 I'm confused by this first number, which seems to be topsy-turvy. Why
4 it's like that, I really don't know. This first number. Everything else
5 is the same as it is in my notebook. We have those notebooks. It's easy
6 for me to bring them, and we can check things out.
7 Q. That's fine. Now, how do you define a soldier, or a combatant?
8 A. I don't have any definitions. After the war in Sarajevo, there's
9 no definition of "soldiers." In the old days, the front was far away from
10 a city. Until this war, I never saw dead [as interpreted] people in
11 town. So there's no definition any more.
12 Q. Thank you. What did you use to define soldiers or combatants for
13 your records?
14 A. We used this certificate - I said that a moment ago - brought
15 either by his commander or member of the family, that he was a member of
16 the Territorial Defence or a brigade that was subsequently formed. And I
17 have that also in my company in safekeeping.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry. For the transcript, in line 38, 1,
20 it says: "I never saw dead people in town." I think that the interpreter
21 said "these people."
22 At least as it shows on the screen written "D-E-A-D" must be a
23 mistake, that's for sure. But it's "that" or "these," I do not know, but
24 D-E-A-D seems to me to be a mistake. Yes.
25 Mr. Stamp we are now at 10.32 or 3. How much time do you think
1 the re-examination will still take? If it's just a matter of one or two
2 minutes, I think we could proceed. If not, we can find a suitable moment
3 for a break.
4 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I would ask that we take this time as a
5 break, because perhaps I might want to confer a bit. So if this time
6 would be convenient?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then we will now have a break until 11.00.
8 So we will adjourn until 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before resuming the re-examination of the witness, I
12 have two issues to deal with, but Mr. Ierace, there is something you want
13 to bring to the attention of the Chamber?
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I could respond very briefly but I
15 think completely, at this stage, if you wish it, in relation to the issue
16 raised by Mr. Piletta-Zanin this morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The issue of the translation?
18 MR. IERACE: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MR. IERACE: One of the witnesses the Prosecution will call next
21 week is a journalist by the surname of van Lynden. He arrived at the
22 Tribunal, in preparation to give his evidence, on the 15th -- I'm sorry,
23 the 16th of January, that is three days ago. He brought with him a
24 videotape which contains a segment that runs for approximately two minutes
25 of a shelling of an apartment building in Sarajevo. It was shot on the
1 5th of December, 1992. Most of that -- those two minutes, are included in
2 the video that was used during my opening. A copy of the video was
3 provided to the Defence yesterday morning, together with a letter saying
4 that the Prosecution proposes to tender that videotape. Last night, we
5 provided a translation of the words spoken by the witness on the tape,
6 that is, words spoken by him in the context of him being a journalist.
7 In other words, in my submission, there could be no reasonable
8 complaint by the Defence as to the timing of the provision of the
9 transcript. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: How many pages are provided in the translation?
11 MR. IERACE: One page.
12 JUDGE ORIE: One page.
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any observation further than what you made this
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, but I will mention
16 them later, after we have continued with the cross-examination. I intend
17 to continue and carry on with the case that I have formulated. I will
18 provide you with an explanation at a slightly later hour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- we do understand from the
20 Prosecution, we don't want to spend much time on it, that it's just about
21 one page and it's just about words of a journalist that is on a tape which
22 has been provided to you recently but only came into the possession of the
23 Prosecution also recently. What I'd like to know from you at this stage,
24 not in general terms, whether this one page will cause you any problems in
25 preparing for the examination of the witness for next week.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right. It will present
2 the same problems, Your Honour. It's a matter of principle, as always.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. And we are constantly aware of
4 the principle matters. On the other hand, we also would like to solve
5 problems, so if you say that there is a problem in the -- in providing
6 translations to the Defence, I fully agree with you, and if this would
7 have been a substantial number of pages, and if the content would have
8 been such that without a translation, could you not have properly -- you
9 could not properly prepare the examination of the witness, I can tell you
10 that in this Chamber we had already the feeling that we should tell the
11 Prosecution that they could not call the witness on short notice, because
12 that would be unfair.
13 On the other hand, if it's just one page, and when you have got
14 one week to prepare for the examination, this Chamber feels that, although
15 we are aware of the principal matter in the background, that this, at this
16 moment, is not a problem where we should interfere and that the
17 Prosecution may proceed.
18 Yes, please.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
20 persist with regard to this matter. It will take me time to explain this
21 in detail. I'm sorry. If you want me to do so now, I will do so, but I
22 think it will be more useful to do it after the hearing.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we'll first now complete the
25 examination of the witness, and then immediately afterwards you'll have
1 the opportunity to explain in further detail what your objections are.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another issue, and I'm directing myself
4 to both the parties. We've been looking to the exhibits which will be
5 tendered into evidence, and since I heard no objections, I expect that it
6 will be admitted in evidence. That's the list that has been shown to the
7 witness. And especially the status of the persons that were buried seems
8 of importance to the Chamber, and therefore I would like to invite the
9 parties to compromise on how many entries on the whole list were "Cs" and
10 how many entries were "Bs." I think it's a database which can be easily
11 sorted on the column status. So I think it would take you, I think, five
12 to ten minutes to find out. I think that if the parties could agree on
13 the numbers, then this would be an easier way to deal with it.
14 Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, I would agree that it
16 would be a very easy way to deal with that one sheet, one page.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you have got -- if it's a database, it's just a
18 matter of sorting on the column of status, and then you'll find that the
19 first, let's say, 300 pages will be "Bs," because that -- no. Yes, "Bs"
20 first and then "Cs" for civilians. I think it's not very difficult,
21 unless it's not a total database, but if it's split up in many small
23 MR. STAMP: It forms part of a huge batch of databases which will
24 be analysed in evidence which the Prosecution intends to tender before the
25 Court at a later stage.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So finally, we will be informed about the total
2 number of "Bs" and the total number of "Cs" on the database as it has been
3 provided by the witness.
4 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's exactly what the Chamber would like to
6 be informed about. But if you'll present it anyhow, then there's no
7 reason at this moment to invite you to do it in a different way as you
8 intend to do it. Then -- yes, please.
9 MR. STAMP: Well, we could proceed with --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, we can proceed.
11 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Mr. Sehbajraktarevic.
12 You can hear us, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Stamp, proceed.
15 MR. STAMP: I will proceed by thanking the witness for attending
16 and testifying on our behalf and indicating to the Court that I have no
17 further questions in re-examination, if it pleases you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: This means that we are already at the end of your
19 examination, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic. The Prosecution wanted to confer
20 during the pause whether they had any additional questions or not, and it
21 now turns out that they have no additional questions to be put to you.
22 Any of the colleagues, any further questions? Yes. There's a
23 question from Judge Nieto-Navia.
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. The last column of the report
25 refers to the place of burial. It's the same place always. Could that
1 explain the problem of the numbers? What I mean is that probably the
2 database was sorted out according to the place of burial, and that's why
3 the numbers are not consecutive numbers. What do you think about it?
4 A. I was thinking about that just a moment ago. It was probably in
5 alphabetical order, this column here, of people buried. This is a list
6 from Kobilja Glava. Everything else is specific: Kobilja Glava,
7 Podastrovi [phoen], Umcate [phoen], Alifakovac. It depended on the
8 location of the cemetery. And if it went in alphabetical order, this must
9 have been -- the order must have been disrupted somehow. That's the only
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no more questions from the Bench, I
13 would like to thank you, Mr. Sehbajraktarevic, for coming a far way from
14 Sarajevo and I would like to thank you for all the information you've
15 given to this Chamber in its efforts to find the truth. Thank you very
16 much for coming, and come home safely.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: The Defence, having referred to a document and asked
21 that it be received into evidence, that request we have not objected to.
22 Neither has the Defence raised any issue in respect of the authenticity of
23 that document, and they specifically referred to the source of that
24 document and stated that it was one page from that source, being a compact
25 disk which was delivered to them by the Prosecution and which is on the
1 list of evidence. In those circumstances, I respectfully tender the
2 compact disk with all of the data from which the Defence has taken one
3 page and ask that it be received into evidence.
4 I don't think, having regard to what happened and what the Defence
5 said in cross-examination, that they are objecting to the authenticity of
6 the contents of the disk.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps let's first -- before we give a decision on
8 that, let's first try to clarify on this issue what the position of the
9 Defence is, because some questions were put to the witness which indicated
10 that the Defence would like to know for sure that the disk would contain
11 the same data as provided by the witness when he gave his disk to the --
12 to other persons.
13 Is there any question at this moment, Ms. Pilipovic, about the
14 Defence taking the position that this is not a correct copy of what has
15 been provided in Sarajevo by the witness to a third party?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness
17 first told us that he didn't know on the left side -- what sort of numbers
18 there were on the left side. He doesn't know anything about those
19 numbers. He also said that as far as he knew, that in his memory he had
20 recorded the cause of death. He showed us that in this document, that
21 this has not been entered in this document. So the Defence is questioning
22 the authenticity of this document which is on the floppy disk in respect
23 of the document that is the original, that is the book that the -- I'm
24 referring to the book that the witness has. So the counsel suggests that
25 the witness provides the original notebook to the Prosecution or to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Trial Chamber, if the Trial Chamber so decides. This is the counsel's
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a proposal. I do understand your
4 proposal, but the question now is what is tendered into evidence, because
5 you are tendering one page, one hard-copy page, of the disk, and the
6 Prosecution now tenders into evidence the whole disk.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, counsel has presented
8 this one page to the witness in order to obtain testimony from the witness
9 as to whether this one page demonstrates whether this information, this
10 data, in this document, is authentic and corresponds to what he has noted
11 in his notebook. Today, the witness told me that he doesn't know about
12 these numbers on the side, in the margin, as his numbers were in sequence,
13 as is usual. And he told us that in his notebook, he kept records and
14 entered data on the basis of the doctor's conclusions, obtained from the
15 coroner - he provided his name - and on that basis he entered the cause
16 of death. That was in response to counsel's question as to whether, and
17 on what basis, they entered the cause of death. He said that it hadn't
18 been listed here, hadn't been entered in this document, but it existed in
19 his notebook.
20 Counsel has taken this document -- from that floppy disk in order
21 to verify whether that disk is -- corresponds to the original notebook.
22 Thank you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The decision of the Chamber is that the hard copy of
25 the one page presented by the Defence will be admitted into evidence
1 as D28. I thought it was D28 -- 27. I'm mistaken, D27.
2 And the Prosecution has not yet prenumbered the disk, which it
3 tenders into evidence and which the Chamber decides will also be admitted
4 into evidence. At least since we have some problems about the
5 authenticity, both of disk and therefore of the hard copy made of this one
6 page, it is admitted into evidence and we will hear about it later, as far
7 as I understand. A copy has been provided already to the Defence. So we
8 should then -- we don't have -- we don't need to have copies for the
9 Bench at this moment to look at, but, please, would you number the exhibit
10 and give it to the usher, who will then give it to the registry.
11 MR. STAMP: The number I think is 3 -- P3630.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is the number on the disk itself or just on the box?
13 MR. STAMP: If it pleases Your Honour, this is the number, the
14 exhibit number, I am informed. It is correct identification exhibit
15 number, P3630.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see you're looking to the box. Is the number
17 also on the disk?
18 MR. STAMP: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, on the disk as well. Thank you.
20 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you'll have the opportunity
22 to explain further your objections against the practice.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [no interpretation].
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel. Microphone, please.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The microphone is on now. I'm
1 not sure whether one can hear me.
2 Thank you, Your Honour. The reason for which counsel must raise
3 the question that it mentioned a short while ago is as follows. The
4 hearings to come are in question in the very near future, the hearing of a
5 witness van Lynden, who is on number 9 in the list provided by the
6 Prosecution, which is a schedule for the appearance of this witness. As I
7 said, he is under number 9, immediately followed by witness under
8 letter "B", for whom we have estimated a time of one and a half hours for
9 the examination-in-chief. We could think that -- we might think that the
10 witness Aernout van Lynden will be heard at the beginning of the week. I
11 think this is correct. There may be some changes but this is the last
12 information I had.
13 Your Honour, there is an essential rule that we have to respect,
14 and that is to permit the accused to allow -- to be able to allow what is
15 being objected to him. This is not the first time. I'm not competent in
16 statistics, but I think that on several occasions, the Prosecution
17 provided counsel with documents in extremis, and I mean by that a few
18 hours or even a few minutes before the hearing, if not at the very
19 beginning of the hearing.
20 They say that it's only one page, that only one page is in
21 question. That's true. But it's a page that was provided on Friday
22 evening when I wasn't there to prepare meetings with members of the
23 Defence counsel, with regard to a hearing that was to take place very
24 soon, at the beginning of next week. The first -- that's the first
1 The second thing - and this is a point I want to insist on, Your
2 Honour - the elements referred to, this cassette, these are elements and
3 this cassette itself, dates back to 1980 -- 1992. van Lynden, the witness
4 van Lynden, was heard, was questioned by the accusation in September or
5 October, I don't have the exact date, perhaps in September, but it doesn't
6 matter, of last year, so we had the time to provide counsel with these
7 translations, and I mean in Serbian, in order to provide Galic, General
8 Galic, with it. I have the Serbian version here in front of me.
9 As far as the written statement is concerned, this witness's
10 written statement, the written statement of Aernout van Lynden, this is, I
11 think, a very important document. It was provided by the Prosecution only
12 a few days ago, on the 11th of January of this year. And, Your Honour,
13 this time limit is just not acceptable.
14 Would you like to say something?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the 10th of January, at 1330 hours, I
16 checked with the parties whether they had available everything they needed
17 in respect of witness number 10, they said you had not yet prepared, but
18 on the other witnesses, there were no problems. So I must say that both
19 parties can be blamed for it, you for not reporting that it was not there
20 in time and the Prosecution for not providing you in time with the copies
21 in B/C/S.
22 What I intended to do on the 10th of January, is in order to
23 prevent any waste of time in this courtroom with these kind of
24 problems -- of course, I'm quite prepared to listen to -- this Chamber is
25 prepared to listen to serious problems, but at the same time, we went
1 through the whole list of witnesses. The parties were invited to do
2 similar at the beginning of each week, and so apart from this one page
3 about the video that has been provided to the Prosecution only recently,
4 as far as I understand, so it's not related to whatever the witness has
5 given us in a statement in September or October, so apart from that, I
6 have indicated that I don't want any waste of time on this, and I see that
7 both the Prosecution, as far as I understand, if it's correct what they're
8 saying, and that's what I assume for this moment, and the Defence, have
9 failed to inform this Chamber in time that there were problems as far as
10 the disclosure of B/C/S translations of these statements were.
11 So once again -- I'm talking about statements, not about the
12 video. Once again, the parties have to sit together, and the parties, as
13 they were instructed by the Senior Legal Officer, have to look, at least
14 one week in advance, and see whether they've got everything, and if not,
15 report immediately to the Chamber, or take care that it will be
16 immediately disclosed. But I'm not going to spend any more time on
17 objections raised in respect of these kind of statements if it has not
18 been duly in time before the examination of the witnesses, after the
19 parties have conferred about the disclosure, I'm not going to listen to
20 any complaints in general terms.
21 It's up to you to report immediately to the Chamber if there is
22 any failure to disclose or to disclose in a proper language. Then you can
23 explain to the Chamber and we'll give orders, but we are not going to
24 waste time on it just prior to the calling of the witness.
25 So it may be quite clear to you that statements in general, at the
1 beginning of the week, one week in advance, you can complain and we'll
2 give orders. We will not do that just a few minutes or one witness before
3 the witness to be called in relation to whom this statement should have
4 been disclosed.
5 So please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've
7 been thinking of this meeting on the 10th. When we said that there was no
8 problem, there were no problems, I didn't have -- I haven't had the time
9 to verify it. We were referring to the list that I have in front of me
10 and we were talking about documents that would be tendered as exhibits.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... checked it in
12 the transcript, and we have been talking also about the previous
13 statements given to the Prosecution, and you indicated quite clearly, for
14 example, with the tenth witness, that you had not yet prepared. And so
15 therefore, since there were no observations as far as the ninth witness on
16 the list - and that was Mr. van Lynden - was concerned, this Chamber
17 assumed that there were no problems. If there would have been problems
18 and if you would have not been aware at that very moment, you could have
19 reported that at the next court hearing and not wait for another four or
20 five days.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I'm doing it now, I'm doing
22 it now. I'm reading item 9 on the witness, van Lynden, where it says that
23 there would not be any exhibits. And I think that, if I've understood
24 this well, at the moment we have a document that is going to be tendered
25 as an exhibit. I think I've understood this clearly. So if there are
1 going to be exhibits that will be presented in extremis, counsel will not
2 accept them. It's not possible for this Defence counsel to be treated in
3 such a manner, such a vulgar manner, and to have some documents submitted
4 to us a few hours before a hearing which we have never spoken about
5 before, in the sense of exhibits.
6 So this is the point that I wanted to make, Your Honour. I don't
7 know if your Trial Chamber will tolerate such things, but the counsel is
8 quite surprised by the fact that a few hours before the hearing they are
9 presented with cassettes and a text, although it is fully aware of the
10 fact that it is not possible to confer with General Galic, on one hand,
11 because I would be absent, and because General Galic would not have access
12 to this text. So in application of all the legal provisions which are
13 applicable, we demand that this be rejected, in quite clear terms. Thank
14 you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... If the
16 Prosecution got into its possession only recently the tape, that creates a
17 situation which cannot generally be foreseen. If there's any need, in
18 time, to better prepare, you of course can apply for it, and the time you
19 need, of course, is related, as far as this Chamber can accept, is related
20 to the kind of document, the length of the document, the contents of the
21 document, whether it's very technical, whether it's legal, whether
22 it's... So it all depends. Of course, you can apply for a further
23 period of time in which you can prepare and discuss with your client the
24 content of the tape, and we'll find a solution for that. I don't think
25 that if you receive such a tape on short notice as Prosecution, I don't
1 think that the word "vulgar" would be appropriate.
2 Mr. Ierace, would you make any additional observation?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Firstly, my learned friend
4 mentioned that van Lynden will follow immediately on Witness B. That is
5 incorrect. He was advised by correspondence yesterday that there is a
6 change to the order of the witnesses and Witness B is now to be followed
7 by Witness D and then by van Lynden. In other words, Mr. van Lynden is
8 not likely to be called until Tuesday, at the earliest.
9 Secondly, I'm concerned about the Trial Chamber may think that the
10 statement of Mr. van Lynden has been disclosed late. The statement is
11 dated the 10th of October, 2001. The English version was given to the
12 Defence on the 26th of October, 2001. The B/C/S version was given to the
13 Defence on the 26th of November, 2001. This tape is approximately two
14 minutes long. Except for two scenes, it is identical to a tape shown
15 during the opening. The rough translation, which was provided to the
16 Defence, was provided the day after we received it, and therefore,
17 Mr. President, in my respectful submission, there is simply no basis, no
18 reasonable basis, for complaint. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time would you need to
20 prepare -- to discuss the content of the video? You have seen it
21 meanwhile or ...?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, do you mean with
23 General Galic?
24 JUDGE ORIE: By yourself.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have seen it myself.
1 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you need? I think General Galic has
2 the opportunity to look at the video in the detention facility; is that
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To watch it at the same time
5 as anyone else, he would need two minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you still need to discuss the
7 content? You have got an idea now of what it is about. The Chamber has
8 not -- apart from that, that part of it would be the same as in the
9 introductory video. How much time would you need to discuss the matter
10 with General Galic?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for
12 this question, but I still have the same problem.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... And then --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer is, I don't know.
15 I can't know this.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then at this moment, since you give us no further
17 information, there's no reason for us at this moment to change the order
18 of witnesses, as suggested by the Prosecution. Just let us know when you
19 are short of time in preparing the examination of Mr. van Lynden because
20 of the late transmission of -- late disclosure of this video to the
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can tell you that this will
23 probably be the case. This is quite probable.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then we'll hear from you.
25 Then I think the next witness will be heard in closed session.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 But Ms. Pilipovic, you would first like to make an observation.
2 Please go ahead.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should just like to
4 inform the Trial Chamber that the Defence has not been informed that there
5 has been a change in the order of hearing the testimony of the witnesses.
6 That is to say, that Witness D will be heard before van Lynden. I'd like
7 to ask my learned friends when they advised me of this. All I was
8 informed of was that Witness B, Mesud Jusufovic, will not -- that Mesud
9 Jusufovic be heard, but Witness B, who we're going to have next. I have
10 no information as to the change in order for Witness D.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, a letter was placed in the Defence box
12 I think at about 6.30 last night, that is, the Defence box for
13 Ms. Pilipovic, which sets out the change in the order of the witnesses and
14 also indicates the next two witnesses to be called, following on the list
15 which had previously been provided. It also contains the exhibit numbers
16 in relation to those two additional witnesses.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So you think you provided yesterday to the Defence.
18 Has the Registry been informed about it? Has the Chamber been informed
19 about it? I didn't find anything in my letter box, but perhaps --
20 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. IERACE: We propose to provide that after court this morning,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll understand that if this issue is raised
25 by the Defence, that the Court would be very much pleased to be provided
1 with similar information, so that at least we know what it's all about,
2 Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes. Mr. President, I have copies available if you'd
4 like them at this stage.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll read them later on, and I think we'll continue
7 Ms. Pilipovic, you ...
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last night -- thank
9 you, Your Honour. I was informed last night that some documents were
10 placed in my locker. I picked them up at 8.15 this morning, but I have
11 not given a receipt to my friends. In the material there are 23 pages of
12 translation, of statements taken in the district court in Paris from two
13 witnesses that my colleagues would like to introduce via Mr. van Lynden,
14 as a witness. In this folder, I just have the receipt, but it does not
15 say -- I haven't got the letter that informs me of the change of order.
16 It states here on the list that I am being given 23 pages, which I picked
17 up this morning. The Trial Chamber can take a look at this. Those are
18 the documents which the Prosecution wishes to introduce via the next
19 witness, van Lynden. But I have not received information as to the change
20 of order. So that was the problem that my colleague and I wish to raise,
21 and the Defence finds it difficult to understand this kind of procedure.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please take a position as far
23 as 23 pages are concerned instead of one page.
24 MR. IERACE: Yes. Mr. President, I can tell you that my case
25 manager delivered the letter personally to Ms. Pilipovic's box immediately
1 after I signed it, and then at about 6.30 she rang, personally,
2 Ms. Pilipovic and told her that the correspondence was -- that there was
3 correspondence in her box for her. I, of course, don't doubt what
4 Ms. Pilipovic says to the Trial Chamber, that she has not located that
5 letter, but it was nevertheless placed in her box. In any event, we will
6 of course, immediately after court, provide her with a photocopy of a
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But one of the other issues, and
9 perhaps a more important one at this moment, is the 23 pages she has been
10 provided with, at least she found in her letter box.
11 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think my friend is under a
14 misunderstanding that the other documents - that is, the 23rd
15 pages - relate to Mr. van Lynden. They do not. That is simply material
16 which is being provided as part of our ongoing obligations in relation to
17 disclosure. I'll seek some more information in relation to those 23
18 pages, but at this stage I can certainly assure the Chamber they bear no
19 relationship to witnesses being called next week.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is there any clear indication as
21 to -- that they relate to the testimony of Mr. van Lynden or ...?
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] On this document, it says that it
23 is -- that it is the transcript of the 5th of December, 1992, where it
24 says "Lynden." The number is 2, and then numbers 3 and 4. They are, in
25 fact, two statements taken in the district court in Paris, and from this
1 document one can conclude that these two statements, which the Defence is
2 looking at for the first time today, are, in fact, an attempt to introduce
3 this through van Lynden. Nothing on the documents states that they are
4 documents which are being especially handed over to the Defence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask both parties to inform this Chamber
6 on whether these 23 pages will be used somewhere in the next one or two
7 weeks or not.
8 If not, we are just dealing at the moment with the one page. If
9 so, we will further consider the matter.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can assure you that they have
11 nothing to do with Mr. van Lynden.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear enough an answer.
13 MR. IERACE: I can now understand why my friends were so
14 concerned. Clearly there has been a misunderstanding. Clearly they
15 thought they were receiving 23 pages which related to the witness
16 following the one about to be called. I can assure them that they misread
17 the letter and it's --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is it related to the witness which will be called
19 next week, the 23 pages?
20 MR. IERACE: Not at all, Mr. President, not at all.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So then I'll just leave to sort this out to
22 the parties during their at least weekly meeting where they will check
23 whether they have everything they need in order to be prepared for the
24 examination of witnesses. And I think --
25 Ms. Pilipovic, you're still standing. Is there any other
1 observation you'd like to make?
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I
3 am surprised that my colleagues have changed the order of the witnesses,
4 because for Witness D, the document that they wished to introduce through
5 Witness D, they sent me those documents just a few days ago. I think we
6 must respect our agreements and that the deadline be seven days before the
7 appearance of the witness in court. That is why I am surprised with this
8 change in the order of witnesses.
9 I would appeal to you to ensure that the Defence is informed at
10 least a week beforehand of the witnesses and material to be introduced.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to Witness D, a letter was
12 provided to the Prosecution [sic], I think early this week or late last
13 week, informing them that the Prosecution proposed to tender through that
14 witness a video clip which takes approximately 30 seconds, which appeared
15 in the opening video segment. In other words, that was added to the
16 exhibit list. That was the only change to the exhibit list.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, let's just try to be very
18 practical. Has the recently provided material to the Defence, was it one
19 week in advance of the hearing of Witness D?
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll check the date of the letter. I
21 think it was, but I'll check it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. IERACE: Excuse me.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there has been a change in the
1 representation of the case manager at the Bar table over the week. It
2 might save time if I give you that date --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll hear from that later, and one week is the
4 absolute minimum. When will the parties sit together again?
5 MR. IERACE: There has been no meeting organised between us, but
6 especially in light of what's occurred this morning, this
7 misunderstanding, I'll speak to my friends at the next break and arrange
8 for us to have a meeting later on this afternoon, if they are available.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When was the last meeting?
10 MR. IERACE: There hasn't been a meeting, I think, for about two
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's exactly against what this Chamber
13 expects the parties to do. We are not going to spend any more time on you
14 just ignoring of what the Chamber has said. So you have to communicate
15 far better. I'm not saying who is responsible for that, but this Chamber
16 expects the parties to behave professionally in such a way that at least
17 every week, one week in advance, it has been checked. We arranged for a
18 meeting together with the Senior Legal Officer of this Chamber, and I now,
19 to my disappointment, have to find out that it's not taken as seriously as
20 we intended you to take it.
21 Ms. Pilipovic, if there is anything new and substantive to add,
22 please proceed. Otherwise, I would like to continue the examination of
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The essential point is that our
25 trial began on the 9th. I came to the Hague on the 7th and informed my
1 colleagues that I would like to have a meeting with them. And I repeat
2 this, I reiterate this. So far, I have received no proposals for an
3 upcoming meeting from my colleagues. And as regards our professional
4 work, I think we ought to respect your proposals.
5 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber wants to be informed at the beginning of
6 each week when the last meeting took place and whether there are any
7 problems or not. That's the ruling of this Chamber. And we'll see how
8 that works.
9 Mr. Ierace, if there is something substantive you would like to
10 add, go ahead. If not, we would like to proceed with the examination of
11 the witness.
12 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, Mr. President, following that request,
13 I met with Mrs. Pilipovic two days running. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I think this issue - and as you may have
15 noticed a bit of irritation on all sides - has been dealt with, I would
16 say, enough at this moment. Let's not look back. Let's look forward and
17 see whether we can -- everyone in this courtroom, we included, can perform
19 The Prosecution may call its next witness. But I think it will be
20 in closed session, if that's correct. We are quite sure about that so we
21 don't close the curtains and pull them up again later on.
22 MS. KALRA: It's not in closed session. It's actually protective
24 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures, yes. Then, Mr. Usher, will you
25 please close the curtains and put everything in place?
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has not at this moment the exact decision
3 on the protective measures. Could it -- we ask to bring it to us, but if
4 the parties agree what exactly the protective measures are that are
5 granted for the witness, please inform us and see whether the parties
6 agree on that.
7 MS. KALRA: Your Honour, simply face and voice distortion, as well
8 as pseudonym.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, do you have any --
10 THE REGISTRAR: Are you requesting the voice distortion as well?
11 MS. KALRA: Yes, I believe that --
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are not aware of that at all. If you request
13 voice distortion, we need to be informed 24 hours in advance.
14 MS. KALRA: Your Honour, it's all right. We can keep the face
15 distortion without the voice distortion.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But it, of course, depends on what has been requested
17 and what the order has been. Do you have the copy of the decision at this
18 moment available to you? Because I want to verify that we are making no
20 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I take advantage of the pause
22 to indicate to the Chamber that there were telephone meetings between the
23 Defence and the Prosecution when we asked that all important documents
24 should be communicated to us by fax so that there should be no mistake.
25 Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could have a copy
5 of the letter in the meantime, the letter that we should have received
6 yesterday evening at 6.30.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think this could be sorted out outside of
8 this courtroom.
9 Did we find the order?
10 MS. KALRA: Your Honour, I apologise for the delay. We are just
11 trying to locate it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. KALRA: Your Honour, if it's convenient for the Court, we
14 might suggest that we take the break now as opposed to later so we can
15 sort this out.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether this is all right as far as the
17 interpreters' booth is concerned and the technical people, but if there
18 are no objections, I would then suggest that we have a break until 12.20
19 and then continue until quarter to 2.00.
20 THE INTERPRETER: No objections from the interpreters.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There are objections from the interpreters, so we
22 cannot follow your suggestion.
23 THE INTERPRETER: No objections, Your Honour, sorry.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry, I didn't listen well. There were no
25 objections from the interpreters' booth, so we will then adjourn
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 until 12.20.
2 --- Break taken at 12.02 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Kalra.
5 MS. KALRA: Mr. President, again I apologise for the delay. We
6 have located both the Prosecution motion as well as the decision given by
7 the Trial Chamber. The Prosecution's motion was dated 30th of October,
8 2001, and in that we requested, for Witness B, expunging names and
9 identifying information from the Tribunal's public records, non-disclosure
10 to the public of any records identifying the victim, giving of testimony
11 through image or voice-altering devices or closed-circuit television, and
12 assignment of pseudonym. The decision was an oral decision on the 6th of
13 November [sic], 2001.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to read. We are talking about
15 Witness B. When I read the --
16 MS. KALRA: Your Honour, actually, if I may continue.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
18 MS. KALRA: I've actually spoken to the witness during the break.
19 We've been having ongoing discussions where she has been considering
20 removing the protective measures. When I spoke to her just recently, she
21 would like to have those protective measures removed completely and
22 testify in open session, if it pleases the Court.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I think the public character of the
24 trial is of major importance, but it's the second time this week that
25 after we put the curtains down, we have to --
1 MS. KALRA: I do apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But I think the public character of the trial is far
3 more important than the extra work for the usher.
4 But please, Mr. Usher, would you remove all the protective
5 measures again. Yes, please.
6 By the way, as far as I read the request, it says Witness B
7 requests pseudonym, face, and voice alteration. So that's, I think,
8 not -- that has been granted. Yes.
9 There must be a mistake in the record, in the transcript, because
10 it says the 6th of November. But of course, it's the 6th of December,
11 exactly at seven minutes past 2.00 in the afternoon, that the decision was
12 given by the Chamber.
13 MS. KALRA: I apologise, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not your fault. It's the fault of the ...
15 Yes, please. You may bring in the witness, Mr. Usher.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. This Court understood that although you
21 had been introduced initially to testify under a pseudonym, which would
22 have been "Witness B," you finally decided that you will testify in open
23 court and that no protective measures were needed. So that's the reason
24 why I'll call you just by your name and not "Witness B." Is that
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So Ms. Zaimovic - I understand you are
3 Ms. Zaimovic - for your testimony, you are required by the Rules to give a
4 solemn declaration, and the text will be given to you by the usher. Would
5 you then please make the solemn declaration.
6 WITNESS: FATIMA ZAIMOVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated. It is now a
11 member of the Prosecution's team who will examine you as a witness.
12 Ms. Kalra, please proceed.
13 Examined by Ms. Kalra:
14 Q. Can you please state your name and date of birth for the record.
15 A. My name is Fatima Zaimovic. I was born on the 20th of January,
17 Q. Are you the head nurse at Kosevo Hospital children's surgery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long have you been in that position?
20 A. I have been in that position for 33 years. You mean as head
22 Q. Yes, as head nurse, yes.
23 A. As head nurse, I have been head nurse since 1979.
24 Q. Did you work in this capacity throughout the period between
25 September 1992 and August 1994?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. How many nurses were working in your department during this time?
3 A. When the war started, there were about 35 nurses in the hospital.
4 However, at the very beginning, more than ten nurses left, so that about
5 24 or 25 nurses remained. I can't remember the exact number. And then
6 the last convoy that left Sarajevo took another ten nurses with it, these
7 nurses being of different ethnicity, but the first ten that left were
8 Serbs, who left the clinic without even saying goodbye, which was quite
9 unusual for the atmosphere that prevailed at our hospital.
10 Q. How many nurses were actually working during the war, after the
11 nurses had left?
12 A. After the nurses had left, about 15 were left, and so we started
13 working at the hospital with these 15 nurses, which was difficult, as
14 nurses came from different parts of the city, and due to shelling, very
15 often they did not come to work.
16 Q. How were your responsibilities as head nurse different during the
17 war as opposed to before the war?
18 A. My duties were more or less the same, but the volume of work, much
19 of which was done by my assistants before, and I supervised them, I had to
20 take over because there weren't enough of us to carry out all those
22 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about the conditions at Kosevo
23 Hospital, particularly within your department. Did you have electricity
24 during the war?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you have running water?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you have sufficient medical supplies?
4 A. We had medicines. We had something in reserve, which is normal
5 for all hospitals in the world. They have to have a pharmacy and some in
6 stock. And then the Doctors Without Frontiers came and they assisted with
7 the medicines, and UNICEF was there too to assist us.
8 Q. How did these shortages affect the running of your department?
9 A. It was very difficult. We were scared. I have to tell you that.
10 Q. Did your department treat both military and civilian patients?
11 A. At my department, only children were treated, and of course they
12 were civilians.
13 Q. What age group did you treat?
14 A. At my clinic, before the war and during the war and now, we have
15 patients from birth up to 14 years of age.
16 Q. Was Kosevo Hospital ever shelled or sniped at between September of
17 1992 and August of 1994?
18 A. Very frequently.
19 Q. Do you remember how often this happened?
20 A. I cannot remember, but I know for certain that there were a large
21 number of shells, and especially sniper bullets or whatever they call
22 them, those very large bullets that could go through walls and cause real
24 Q. Was there any military equipment in the hospital, that you're
25 aware of?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know if there were any -- if there was any military
3 equipment in the area surrounding the hospital?
4 A. No. As far as I know, there was none.
5 Q. How did the children react to the shelling and sniping of the
7 A. Their reaction was terrible. The children panicked, started
8 screaming, and it was very difficult to calm them down.
9 Q. What if any precautions did you take to protect the children
10 within the hospital?
11 A. We were not ready for the war, so we had no preparations for it.
12 What we did have at the clinic were long corridors. The building was
13 built in Austrian times and the basements were not equipped for
14 accommodation, so it was very hard. The patients who were bedridden were
15 kept in the corridors, and attended by nurses. And then the small
16 children that we could carry, we would take to the basement, which, as I
17 said, had no facility. It was horrible. It was really difficult. They
18 were screaming and crying, afraid to be left alone, and hanging on to us.
19 Q. Were any patients or staff members injured by shells or sniper
20 fire within the hospital?
21 A. Yes. Two of my colleagues were wounded -- no, killed, at work,
22 because a shell hit their room. It was a direct hit. I don't remember
23 the date. I know it was cold, very cold. It was in wintertime. I came
24 to work in the morning and found those two good colleagues of mine, who
25 were dead. One had two small children.
1 Q. Can you recall what year that took place in?
2 A. I think it was in 1993. Also, in 1993, a wonderful lady, an
3 engineer, was killed, who helped us a lot in improvising the premises, to
4 put the children there, so that we could move from the traumatology
5 department to Dip, where she had her office. On her way to her office, a
6 shell fell and killed her on the spot.
7 Q. Do you recall when that took place?
8 A. This occurred in 1993, around the middle of the year. I think so,
9 but please don't hold me to the dates because I really didn't keep track
10 of them.
11 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about the children that you
12 were treating. Can you tell us approximately the number of children that
13 would come in to your department on an average day?
14 A. It varied. Sometimes we had two to three. Sometimes children
15 came in groups, when there was very heavy shelling. And there were times
16 when there would be ten or six or seven children coming, and they were so
17 frightened, covered in blood, mud, dismembered. Their parents would be
18 crying. The staff would be crying. The walls would start crying,
20 Q. That number of two to three children per day, did that continue
21 consistently throughout the war?
22 A. No. Two to three years. But I remember one heavy shelling at a
23 school at Otoka, in Nemanjina Street, in Vase Miskina Street, and on those
24 occasion we had a very large number of patients. The worst occasion was
25 when the school was hit. That was on the 9th of November. And the Otoka
1 shelling was on the 10th of November. We hadn't even recovered from the
2 children at school, and the next day, 11 children came from Otoka. Two
3 were dead and the others were mostly brothers and sisters, as they were
4 all hiding in a passageway. The weather was fine and the children wanted
5 to go outside, and a shell fell and wounded them very, very seriously.
6 Believe me, they didn't choose the time or place or day. They opened fire
7 at will. They would fall silent for a day or two, then the children would
8 feel more relaxed, go out into the streets, and then they would open fire
9 and kill those innocent children.
10 Q. You mentioned a few incidents there. The incident on the 9th of
11 November, do you remember which year that was?
12 A. That was in 1993.
13 Q. Does it follow that the incident on the 10th of November also took
14 place in 1993?
15 A. Yes, in 1993. Both the 9th and the 10th. All this was in 1993.
16 That year was very hard for us. We had no electricity or gas or water.
17 Water was brought in truck tanks. The food was running out. It was
18 really hard.
19 Q. Did you personally treat the children in the incidents that you
20 just spoke of on the 9th and 10th of November?
21 A. Yes, of course. Together with a team of other nurses, we would
22 admit them to the department. Then a team of surgeons, together with the
23 anaesthesiologist, would come to assess which child needed to be operated
24 first, who was most at risk, and then they would be operating day and
25 night and then brought back to the ward. Everything - treatment,
1 infusions, keeping the children quiet - all this had to be done and taken
2 care of by us, those of us working in the department.
3 Q. Do you remember what types of injuries those children suffered
5 A. Each child had two or three wounds. The shells were dreadful.
6 Some were left without legs or arms. Some children were so badly hurt
7 by -- one child had his kidney and liver and spleen destroyed by shrapnel,
8 or a blood vessel would be hit and we couldn't stop the haemorrhaging, so
9 that they would pass away. So on an average, each child had two or three
11 Q. Do you remember any specific incidents that occurred on the 10th
12 of October, 1992?
13 A. Yes. This was at Otoka, on the 10th of October --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.
15 A. -- the 11th.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence objects to the manner
17 in which the question has been put to the witness, as the witness said, in
18 answer to an earlier question: "Please don't insist on the dates. Don't
19 hold me to the dates I give."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was, I think, on a specific question,
21 but --
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend rephrase
23 her question, please.
24 MS. KALRA: Yes, I'm happy to do so.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're doing so. Thank you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. KALRA:
2 Q. Are there any incidents that you recall that took place in the
3 autumn of 1992?
4 A. Yes, there were quite a number of them. In 1992, in the autumn,
5 yes, a child, a wonderful child, was injured, in Jelena Vitas Street. I
6 remember that extremely well. His name was Dario Vapetic. He has stuck
7 in my memory. His parents, with their neighbours, wanted to light a fire,
8 and they collected some paper in the yard of the building, which was fully
9 surrounded. And when they were about to do that, a shell fell in the
10 yard, and in a single moment, that boy lost his mother and father and both
11 grandparents. You can't imagine. A lot of children came. The adults
12 were treated in the other departments and we treated the children.
13 When he arrived, he was out of his mind. He kept repeating,
14 "Auntie, Auntie, I saw my dad's head flying through the air." It took us
15 a lot of time to calm him down. And I don't know whether that child is
16 still suffering from the consequences. I'm not in touch with him.
17 As days passed, he started -- he was incontinent in bed, and then
18 a grandmother came one day and she took him away. As he was leaving --
19 we had become very close and we loved each other, and he wrote down --
20 they called me Tina. And he said, "Auntie Tina, I love you so much that I
21 simply don't want to leave you." And he drew a vase - he was only 6 years
22 old - and a flower in that vase, on an old piece of paper, and I treasure
24 Q. Do you recall which injury he specifically --
25 A. He wasn't badly hurt. He had a large number of wounds, but they
1 were not life-threatening. And they were treated quite quickly. He was
3 Q. Do you remember approximately which month within the autumn of
4 1992 that took place?
5 A. On the 10th of October, 1992. I remember that very well, because
6 I think of that little boy often.
7 Q. Where were you living during the war?
8 A. I was living close to the hospital. The district is called
9 Breka. It's right behind the hospital. So that my coming to the hospital
10 was dangerous, but not as much as it was for the other nurses who lived in
11 Dobrinja or at Alipasino Polje or at Hrasno, and so on. So that because
12 of the proximity of my home and everything else, I went to the clinic
13 every day and stayed from morning till night, and very often I stayed
14 overnight when other nurses did not manage to come.
15 Q. What part of Sarajevo could you see from your home?
16 A. Breka is on an elevation above town, so I could see a part of
17 Mount Trebevic and a part of the town, and I could even see those two
18 large UNIS skyscrapers that were very badly shelled. All this can be seen
19 from my window.
20 Q. Did you ever see any activity that took place on Mount Trebevic?
21 A. Of course I did. I saw a gun behind a rock. This area is known
22 as Osmice. All the people of Sarajevo know what that means. It's a big
23 rock behind which a gun was hidden, and it would come out and open fire on
24 the town. One morning - it was summer. The weather was very fine - I
25 got up early and I sat on the balcony, when I heard a terrible explosion.
1 People had filled barrels with explosive material and pushed them
2 down the hill, which simply destroyed some homes as they hit them.
3 Q. Do you remember when you saw the incident of the barrels?
4 A. No. I can't remember the date. Indeed, I am so sorry.
5 Q. Do you remember the year in which that took place?
6 A. No. This must have been towards the end of 1992 and the beginning
7 of 1993, when the shooting was fiercest.
8 Q. You mentioned that you saw a gun coming out on Mount Trebevic.
9 Could you see whether that gun had wheels?
10 A. No. I just saw the barrel. It's not a gun. It's a tank. I know
11 it's a tank, and it had a gun which you would see and a shell coming out
12 of it, hitting the houses. These were all private homes on that part of
13 the slopes. There are no apartment buildings, only private family homes.
14 Anyone living in Sarajevo knows about that.
15 Q. And when did you see the tank coming out on to Mount Trebevic?
16 A. He was there all the time. It was there all the time, I'm sorry.
17 Q. Does that include the period between September 1992 and August
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Were you ever sniped at during the war?
21 A. Yes. At the beginning of the war. My husband and I started off
22 to work in the morning, and a sniper targeted us and the bullet whizzed
23 past my hair, singeing this front portion. I ducked down and it whizzed
24 past my husband's neck. Luckily, we weren't hit. And we were very
25 frightened, and we decided never to go to work together from then on,
1 because we thought that as we had two children, if either one of us was
2 killed, at least that would leave one of us alive.
3 Q. Do you recall what month that took place in?
4 A. The weather was very fine. We didn't dare look at the leaves or
5 look up. We always looked down because we were very afraid of being hit,
6 so we couldn't feel autumn and spring and anything going on around us. We
7 were too busy looking down at our feet.
8 Q. Do you recall which year that took place in?
9 A. I think it was 1993.
10 Q. Did you feel safe when you were in the hospital?
11 A. No, no, I didn't.
12 Q. Did the children feel safe, to the best of your recollection,
13 while they were in the hospital?
14 A. No. They quite certainly didn't, because when they heard any
15 shooting - which might have been in town but the echoes reached the
16 Kosevo Hospital - they would jump out of bed, any of the children who were
17 able to, and the children who weren't able to, who were bedridden, they
18 would be extremely scared, and the children who could, rushed to us for
19 protection. They were terribly afraid of the shells and the shooting.
20 And that was probably because they had experienced the wounding, and so
21 when they heard those terrible sounds of shooting and explosions, this had
22 a terrible effect on the children.
23 Q. Did you see any emotional effects in these children that was
24 caused by the shelling and sniping?
25 A. Well, of course. Some children withdrew into themselves. Others
1 began wetting their beds, children who had never done that before. And
2 they did many other things which I just can't remember now, because in
3 1993, we included psychologists and pedagogists working with us at the
4 clinic, with the children, to help them get over the war as best they
6 Q. Did any staff member show any signs of emotional stress from the
7 shelling and sniping?
8 A. Yes. We are all humans, and we all experience things in different
9 ways, each in our own way. At my own clinic, there were two nurses who
10 had psychological problems, and they are still being treated at
11 psychiatric wards, and actually those two stopped working. One was an
12 assistant nurse and the other one was a technician working in the theatre,
13 operating theatre.
14 Q. What emotional effects, if any, did the shelling and sniping of
15 civilians have on you personally?
16 A. I was terribly afraid. I have to be quite frank in saying that.
17 And when I was on my own, I would realise just how much it had all
18 affected me and just how afraid I was. I was afraid for my family. I was
19 afraid for the injured and wounded children. I was afraid whether I'd be
20 up to the task, up to doing everything the job required. But, you know,
21 those small children, when they smiled and laughed and did a drawing for
22 me or asked me, "Auntie Tina, why are you so sad," I would collect myself
23 and carry on working, doing the best I could.
24 Q. Did you ever suffer from any health problems that were related --
25 that you believe are related to the stress from the war?
1 A. Yes. In 1995, when the ceasefire came into being and there was
2 less shooting at town - although there still was shooting and they would
3 do this in an underhand way and kill in an underhand way - I had a very
4 serious heart attack. Probably it was the culmination of everything that
5 I had experienced. So I had to be absent from the clinic for a time
6 following my heart attack.
7 MS. KALRA: Thank you, Ms. Zaimovic.
8 Mr. President, I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Kalra.
10 Ms. Zaimovic, questions will be put to you now by Defence counsel
11 from the accused.
12 Ms. Pilipovic, would you please proceed in cross-examination?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
15 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, good day to you.
16 A. Good day.
17 Q. You were answering questions put to you by my colleague. What I
18 should now like to ask you is whether on the 9th of April, 2000, you
19 talked to the investigators of the Tribunal and gave a statement and
20 signed it?
21 A. I don't remember the date but, yes, probably I did, if it's my
23 Q. Is what you set out in your statement true and correct?
24 A. Of course it is, but perhaps not all the details are included in
25 that, because I remember a lot of things as I go along and there are many
1 other -- many more things that I could put in that statement.
2 Q. You worked at the children's ward of Kosevo Hospital since 1978;
3 is that right? Or you were the head nurse?
4 A. I became head nurse in 1979. Before that, I had worked as a
6 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the medical staff in your ward,
7 in the ward you were head nurse in?
8 A. You mean before the aggression or after the aggression?
9 Q. I asked you what the ethnic composition was of the medical staff
10 employed in your department, and let me remind you that you said, in
11 response to a question from my learned colleague, when the nurses of Serb
12 ethnicity began to leave. And you said, when the war began.
13 A. Yes. When the war began, they simply left, a part of the nurses.
14 Some of the nurses left and some stayed on.
15 Q. When was that?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you're referring to Serbian nurses
17 leaving. I don't remember that. Could you please give us the exact line
18 where the witness said that Serbian nurses were leaving?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a problem for me
20 now to find the line in question, but Mrs. Zaimovic did state that when
21 the war began there were 35 nurses.
22 Q. That's what you said?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. More than ten nurses of Serb ethnicity left?
25 A. Yes. And among them, of those ten, there were assistant
1 employees, orderlies too.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Yes, Ms. Kalra?
4 MS. KALRA: Mr. President, if it assists the Court, the reference
5 is, in the English version, page 66 -- 65, I'm sorry, line 22.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am able to answer that question.
7 I can answer it if that is required.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I asked you when that was. When I say "when," the year and month,
11 A. It was April, 1992.
12 Q. You say the fourth -- you said the fourth. Do you mean the fourth
13 month, April?
14 A. Yes, April, when the aggression began but when you could still
15 move through town to go to Pale, Foca and the other places.
16 Q. You have used the word "aggression." Could you clarify that,
17 please -- qualify it?
18 A. It is the word that we use. And I really do think that that was
20 Q. When you say, "We use," who do you mean "we"?
21 A. I mean the people of Sarajevo.
22 Q. So the word "aggression" for you means what?
23 A. You know what an aggression is. When they have guns and snipers
24 in front of the town and they begin killing innocent children and mothers
25 and all the other innocent population of Sarajevo, Madam. That's what I
2 Q. I am well able to understand the emotions you are experiencing,
3 but I think that I am asking questions in a proper manner. You used the
4 word "aggression." Now, on that 4th of April, why did 35 nurses leave the
6 A. I didn't say that 35 left. I said that ten nurses left.
7 Q. Do you mean ten nurses of Serb ethnicity?
8 A. Yes. And that was really what happened.
9 Q. Do you happen to know why they left?
10 A. They probably knew what was coming, because their entire families
11 were at Pale, in Foca, in Visegrad, and the other places. And there are
12 documents to bear this out. You can check it out for yourself.
13 Q. Did something happen before the 4th of April, when, as you say,
14 the war began, and you say that it began on the 4th of April?
15 A. I did not know about that. I was in shock for a long time, with
16 all the events that were taking place. I just couldn't believe that it
17 was happening, that anything like that could happen.
18 Q. And what happened on the 4th of April?
19 A. How do you mean?
20 Q. Was there something characteristic that happened on that day?
21 Because you say the fourth month.
22 A. I said the fourth month, April, not the 4th of the month. I said
23 that those nurses left in April. Now, what actually happened, I really
24 can't say. I don't know.
25 Q. Was anything happening in the town itself, in April?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Did you go into town?
3 A. Yes, I did. I went into town. I think that you know what was
4 going on better than me.
5 Q. In April, when you went into town, was there anything unusual
6 compared to the daily rhythm of the town?
7 A. Yes. People were -- they were restless and they were buying more
8 than they usually bought, more than they needed.
9 Q. Your department, where you were head nurse, how many patients can
10 it take in?
11 A. Forty.
12 Q. Who was the director of your hospital?
13 A. Do you want me to state his full name and surname?
14 Q. I'm asking you about April.
15 A. In April, it was Professor Docent Dr. Dizdarevic.
16 Q. And before Dr. Dizdarevic?
17 A. His first man, primarius, Dr. Mirjan Lomas, who stayed with us
18 until the end of the war, and we sent him off nicely when he had to
19 retire, gave him a nice send-off.
20 Q. You told us how many nurses left the hospital when the war broke
21 off. Did the doctors leave as well?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know how many doctors actually left the hospital?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The doctors who left, you say you don't know how many there were,
1 but do you know what ethnic group they belonged to?
2 A. There were Bosniaks and Serbs and Croats. At my clinic, and
3 throughout the war, two Croats remained on the job and three Serbs, and we
4 got on very, very well, throughout the war.
5 Q. When you say "Croats," "Croat nurses," lady nurses, and "Serb
6 nurses," yes, you were referring to nurses, but I asked you about
7 doctors. How many doctors left the hospital? You said that Bosniak and
8 Croat doctors left.
9 A. Yes, who left the hospital.
10 Q. That means that quite a number of them left the hospital.
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. How many Serb and Croat doctors stayed on during the war at your
13 clinic? If you don't know, it doesn't matter.
14 A. I really can't give you a number. It was my job to look after the
15 nurses rather than the doctors.
16 Q. And who was the head of your department, the children's surgery
18 A. Docent Dr. Dizdarevic, who in the meantime became a professor, so
19 he is now Professor Dr. Dizdarevic.
20 Q. So he was the head of the department and director of the hospital?
21 A. He was director of the children's surgical clinic.
22 Q. And what about the director of Kosevo Hospital as a whole?
23 A. That was Professor Dr. Faruk Konjuhodzic.
24 Q. When did he become director of the hospital?
25 A. I think that was from the end of 1992.
1 Q. That means that until the end of 1992, who was the hospital
3 A. I can't remember the name, but he was a wonderful man, and doctor
4 as well.
5 Q. Do you happen to know which ethnic group he belonged to?
6 A. He was a Bosniak.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. You're welcome.
9 Q. You spoke today about the shelling of Kosevo Hospital. Can you
10 tell us when the hospital was shelled for the first time?
11 A. I can't. I don't know the date.
12 Q. Do you know from which direction the shells came?
13 A. I can't tell you that either, because there were shells coming
14 from all directions. And I'm not a military expert. I can't tell you
15 where the shells came from. We just heard them reverberating, the echoes,
16 the screams, and the cries.
17 Q. You told us you saw a tank.
18 A. Yes, from my balcony.
19 Q. Could you see the tank from the hospital as well?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You said that from your balcony you could see a tank. Where was
22 that tank?
23 A. Well, we call that place Osmice, and next to the Osmice there's a
24 large rock, and he was probably taking cover from behind the rock and then
25 he would come out and shoot. But I think that that's common knowledge.
1 Q. When did you see the tank for the first time?
2 A. I can't remember.
3 Q. Is that your answer, that you can't remember? Can I take it that
4 you don't remember the date?
5 A. That's right. I can't remember the date. A lot of time has gone
6 by since then, a lot of pain, a great deal of stress, for me to be able to
7 remember the date.
8 Q. Could you tell us whether observers, UN observers, came to your
9 hospital? Did they visit the hospital?
10 A. I don't know who came, but I do know that foreign journalists
11 would come by very frequently to see how we lived and worked, and that
12 they would usually visit the children's surgical department, bringing
13 sweets and apples to the children, and they made the children happy. Now,
14 whether any soldiers came, I don't know.
15 Q. You said you lived near the hospital.
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. What floor was the children's surgical department?
18 A. It was on the second floor. My department was on the second
20 Q. From your department and the windows of that department, what part
21 of Sarajevo can you best see when you look out of the windows?
22 A. We can hardly see a thing outside the hospital window, because
23 there are large chestnut trees which block the view.
24 Q. When you said that you could see Trebevic from your balcony, could
25 you tell us what Trebevic is?
1 A. Trebevic is a mountain above Sarajevo, and it's a good picnic
2 spot, excursion spot. The citizens of Sarajevo would go up there, and I
3 did too, with my children, to spend some time there.
4 Q. Thank you. In the environs of Sarajevo, were there other
5 excursion sites, as you put it? Is it a hill or a mountain?
6 A. A mountain.
7 Q. Are there any other elevations around Sarajevo of that nature?
8 A. Of course there are, yes. You know very well that Sarajevo is
9 built in a valley, surrounded by elevations, and each of these elevations
10 has a name: Bjelasnica, Poljina, Trebevic, and so on.
11 Q. Near the hospital and your place of residence, is that where Zuc
12 and Hum hills are located, elevations of that kind?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. From your balcony, can you see those hills?
15 A. No, you can't.
16 Q. Did you ever climb up those hills, and do you know what is at the
17 top of the hill?
18 A. You mean during the war?
19 Q. I mean generally speaking. Did you ever go to the top?
20 A. Before the war, yes, but never during the war, or after the war
21 either, because I'm afraid of mines and all the residue from the war.
22 Q. When you went before the war and climbed up those hills, could you
23 see Sarajevo from those elevations?
24 A. Well, I can't quite remember. We would walk in the forest,
25 breathe in the fresh air. We never thought about things like that.
1 Q. When you told us about the shelling, did you, while you were in
2 the hospital, actually see the hospital being shelled?
3 A. Yes. On one occasion I was actually present, and the second ward
4 for internal medicine is near our own clinic, and the shell directly
5 whizzed into the patient's room. Two patients were killed and another
6 patient was horribly wounded, and we heard terrible screams coming from
7 that ward.
8 Q. When did that happen?
9 A. That was sometime in 1993. It was a very strong, cold winter.
10 The weather was awful. And all the tinfoil that we had -- and plastic
11 foil that we had set up on the windows was destroyed.
12 Q. Did you happen to see the direction where the shell came from?
13 A. No. How could you see that?
14 Q. Did you ever see the place from which shells were being fired?
15 A. No. Just that one tank. I keep mentioning that tank, the one
16 that I personally saw, and I think everybody else knew that it was there.
17 It was common knowledge.
18 Q. Now, as for the snipers, did you ever see a sniper shooter?
19 A. No. Can you actually see him?
20 Q. I'm asking you. You said that you and your husband were on your
21 way to work when a sniper targeted you.
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. Were you able to judge the direction the sniper fire was coming
25 A. No. We were so frightened that we never gave any thought to
1 things like that.
2 Q. What part of town were you in at the time?
3 A. I was on my way to work, and I was passing by the orthopaedics
4 clinic. I was on the staircase at the entrance to the hospital. I know
5 that for a fact. I know exactly where I was.
6 Q. In your statement, you said that you never saw any BH army
7 positions during the war.
8 A. No. That's right; I didn't.
9 Q. But you do know of the existence of the BH army, do you not?
10 A. Yes, of course. Of course it existed, but I didn't see it.
11 Q. From your own house to your place of work, on your route, did you
12 ever happen to come across a soldier?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Kalra, you wanted to intervene.
15 MS. KALRA: My learned friend did not indicate -- she indicated
16 that Ms. Zaimovic had said that she never saw any BH army positions during
17 the war. My recollection is that she said she did not see any BH army
18 positions near the hospital during the war. If my learned friend could
19 give us a page reference, a line reference, it would be appreciated.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I began
21 cross-examining the witness, I asked the witness whether she had given a
22 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal, and in my
23 cross-examination, I am using parts of the statement, of what the witness
24 said in the statement, because she said that she did indeed make a
25 statement, which she herself signed. And the Defence therefore considers
1 that in the cross-examination, as this is a Prosecution Exhibit supplied
2 by the Prosecution to the Defence, that we have every right to
3 cross-examine on the facts set out in the statement given by the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Kalra.
5 MS. KALRA: If my learned friend could give us a reference within
6 the statement, and in future references, when she is conducting her
7 cross-examination, it would be appreciated.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Ms. Pilipovic, that during the last few days
9 we have met this problem now and then, and you were invited -- and of
10 course you're referring to the statement and not to the testimony, so to
11 that extent it's quite clear that you refer to the statement.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But in order to assist the Chamber to better
14 understand, we invited you always to quote literally that part of the
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I only
17 have the B/C/S version of the statement. The page is 03023784.
18 Paragraph 3, I can quote, but I apologise to the interpreters for
19 not having the English version. I don't think I received it. "Throughout
20 the time I worked in the hospital, I never saw any BH army positions in
21 the vicinity of the hospital."
22 JUDGE ORIE: Am I correct, then, that the objection of Ms. Kalra
23 should be sustained? Because you're now saying that the statement
24 contains that she didn't see any BIH positions in the vicinity of the
25 hospital, and when referring to the statement, you made no --
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I just asked her whether that was
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think you --
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what she said, and she
5 confirmed that it was correct, that she had never seen that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think you put a question to her whether
7 she had ever seen any BIH positions, and her statement was as you read it
8 now, or -- let me just check on what exactly your question was.
9 MS. KALRA: Mr. President, it's at line -- page 86, line 19, if
10 that assists the Court.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I read this line and it says: "In
12 your statement, you said that you never saw any BH army positions during
13 the war." The lines you just read to us are limited to the vicinity of
14 the hospital. So, again, I would appreciate a high degree of precision in
15 confronting a witness with an earlier statement or earlier testimony.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My second
18 question would be whether she had seen them close to the hospital. And
19 that is precisely why I wanted to draw the witness's attention to the
21 Q. So, witness, you never saw any soldiers en route from your house
22 to the hospital?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever see any soldiers, throughout the war, in that part of
25 town where your apartment is located -- where your home is located and
1 where your institution is located?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You said that your colleagues from Hrasno, Alipasino Polje and
4 Dobrinja would also come to work?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did your colleagues from Dobrinja tell you the route they took to
7 work, how they came to work?
8 A. Well, it was difficult for them to get to work. They had to run
9 across most of the places. They were very tired and they -- it would take
10 them an hour to recover from their journey.
11 Q. Did you ever go to Dobrinja yourself?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You told us that Dobrinja for you was as if you were going to
14 France. Could you clarify this answer, please?
15 A. It seemed so far because of all those threats, that threatened us
16 from all places, the shells, the bullets, et cetera, so no one had the
17 courage to go out. They would only go out when it was absolutely
18 necessary to do something.
19 Q. You told us that you could see Trebevici and high-rise buildings
20 from your balcony, high-rise buildings in the surroundings. Which
21 buildings are you talking about?
22 A. They were the two UNIS buildings, skyscrapers - that's what we
23 called them - because when they would shoot in the building -- at these
24 UNIS buildings, you would see these light bullets which were constantly
25 being fired at them. You could see this on television and in reports
1 which the various agencies transmitted at all times. They fired tracer
2 bullets at these buildings.
3 Q. You didn't see this personally, you saw it on television?
4 A. I saw this personally. I could see that from my balcony.
5 Q. What did you see personally?
6 A. How the bullets were being fired at this building and how they
7 shattered the windows and how they set the building alight. The building
8 was on fire, you know.
9 Q. Did you see anyone firing from that building?
10 A. No, I didn't see that. It was impossible to see that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think you used approximately half an
12 hour, the same time as the Prosecution used. Could you just indicate how
13 much more time you would need?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall make an
15 effort to bring this to -- this examination, this cross-examination, to a
16 conclusion with a few questions.
17 Q. When you mentioned the shelling that the children survived, who
18 were in your clinic, in your institution, did you see any of these
20 A. No, because we were working in the clinic. They would bring these
21 children to us. I didn't see any of this. When you are confined in the
22 premises of the clinic, you can't see this. You only hear the
23 reverberation, the blast, and nothing else.
24 Q. You told us about heavy shelling of the school in 1993,
25 November -- on the 9th of November 1993. Did you see this shelling?
1 A. No, I didn't. How could I have?
2 Q. Could you tell us which part of town this school is located?
3 A. It's in Acipasino Polje, I think it is there -- Alipasino Polje.
4 I'm not sure of the exact location but I think it's there.
5 Q. At a later date, did you hear where the shell came from, or the
6 shell that fell on the school?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. During the war, in Sarajevo, did you ever see snipers firing from
9 the UNIS skyscrapers?
10 A. I couldn't have seen that from my window and from my building, of
11 course, so I don't know.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
13 further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
15 Is there any need for re-examination, Ms. Kalra?
16 MS. KALRA: No, Mr. President. We are concluded.
17 JUDGE ORIE: From the colleagues, any further questions?
18 Then, Mrs. Zaimovic, I'd like to thank you for coming this long
19 way to this Court, and of course this Court had noticed that giving the
20 information asked by the parties, of course, brought into your memory, I
21 think, events that made you emotional now and then, and of course we have
22 understanding for the emotions you showed in this courtroom. I'd like to
23 thank you very much for informing this court and we wish you a good
24 journey home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We have got ten minutes left. Does the Prosecution
3 think that it will be of any use to start for these ten minutes? Or it
4 depends on how you -- what issues you have to question about.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, not only do I think that we could not
6 make use of that time, in any event we don't have a witness to call at
7 this stage. The next witness will be available on Monday morning. I
8 anticipated that that witness would go to the break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
10 Ms. Pilipovic, I still want to apologise for breaking into the
11 cross-examination, as far as the leaving of Serbian nurses was concerned.
12 I later found out what caused my confusion. The answer of the witness
13 first was that in the last convoy, nurses of different ethnicity left the
14 hospital, and that was what was still in my mind, and only afterwards she
15 said that the first ten were of Serbian -- so I apologise for breaking in,
16 perhaps in not a proper way.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that, at this moment, we should adjourn until
19 next Monday. Madam Registrar, we start at what time next Monday? I think
20 it was at 9.00. Am I correct? Madam Registrar is just checking the Court
21 schedule, which changes now and then.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the Court calendar here says 9.30,
23 but I was informed by my colleagues that we are going to start at 9.00, in
24 Courtroom III, next Monday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I know that there has been a change of
1 courtroom. We will be in Courtroom III next Monday, and if we start at
2 9.00, would this cause any difficulties for one of the parties? Because
3 if they had on the schedule that we would start at 9.30, travel
4 arrangements might be of importance.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, my correction, in this calendar, it says
6 starting at 9.30, so I'm not sure whether we start at 9.00 or 9.30.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For reasons related to flight,
9 I would prefer, because that would allow me to be here on Monday. This is
10 just an administrative problem.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you have to arrive on Monday
12 morning, and therefore ...
13 Yes. So we will then stick to the court schedule, as far as the
14 time is concerned. That's 9.30 next Monday.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace?
17 MR. IERACE: The courtroom will be Courtroom III?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, Courtroom III.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I think that's a change. Yes. So we will
20 adjourn to next Monday at 9.30 in Courtroom III.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 1.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
23 the 21st day of January, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.