Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2302

1 Friday, 25 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone, also the interpreters'

9 booth and the technical booth. If I'm not mentioning, it doesn't mean

10 that I'm not aware of your presence and of your assistance without which

11 we could not proceed.

12 Mr. Ierace, I think you'll do the last part of the

13 examination-in-chief of your witness.

14 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness, Mr. Hvaal

15 [The witness entered court]

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst he's being brought in, at the

17 conclusion of the cross-examination and re-examination of this witness, I

18 would be grateful for an opportunity to say a few words as to the calling

19 of witnesses next week, and some other matters. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give you an opportunity for that.

21 Good morning, Mr. Hvaal. You can hear us?

22 THE WITNESS: Good morning. Yes, I can.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. The examination-in-chief will

24 continue.

25 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

Page 2303

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 WITNESS: MORTEN HVAAL [Resumed]

3 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hvaal.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. During the period mentioned yesterday, September 1992 through

7 until August of 1994, did you make any observations on the Bosnian Serb

8 side of the confrontation lines of the participation in the armed conflict

9 of what appeared to be paramilitaries?

10 A. Yes, on occasion.

11 Q. And whereabouts during that period did you make such observations?

12 A. In several locations, when crossing in and out through Ilidza, and

13 also around the Lukavica barracks, and in Pale.

14 Q. All right. You've mentioned three sites. In relation to Lukavica

15 barracks, what actually did you see?

16 A. Paramilitaries as one would define them, recognised through

17 non-standard uniform and equipment, driving non-military vehicles, behaving

18 in a - how can I say - non-military or unmilitary fashion.

19 Q. What sort of vehicles did you observe them to be driving?

20 A. Mostly rather expensive Belgrade- or foreign-plated vehicles.

21 Q. How were they dressed?

22 A. In -- mostly wearing uniforms, but not necessarily recognisable as

23 anything from the former Yugoslavia in terms of insignia and such things.

24 Q. All right. Now, what was actually at Lukavica? What was

25 Lukavica?

Page 2304

1 A. Lukavica is an army barracks.

2 Q. Did you have any discussions on the topic of the role of the

3 paramilitaries with any members of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps or the --

4 put it this way: The Bosnian Serb army people?

5 A. Yes. That would have come up. I mean, there was a certain amount

6 of animosity between these two and -- yes, I'm sure, yes, it would have

7 come up, yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, keep in mind I'm asking you what you actually

9 remember rather than what would have been said.

10 A. Sure.

11 Q. Can you tell us what, if anything, you were told by members of the

12 Bosnian Serb army about the compatibility of the role of the

13 paramilitaries?

14 A. I remember having at least one conversation with a Bosnian Serb

15 army officer. I believe this took place in the airport. I'm not a

16 hundred per cent sure. But it concerned the -- you know, what role

17 paramilitaries would play after the confrontation lines had become as

18 fixed as they were towards the end of 1993 and onwards. I think -- I

19 can't sort of quote correctly, but I'd say that the conclusion of our

20 conversation would be something to the effect that paramilitaries don't

21 have much of a military role to play in a situation like that. They are

22 largely unsuited for this type of operation. And there's also very little

23 motivation for them to take part in this, because there tends to be a

24 certain financial side to paramilitary operations.

25 Q. What do you mean by that?

Page 2305

1 A. Well, they tend to be into it for the -- whatever they can steal,

2 loot, whatever you want to call it, as these -- as they usually have very

3 little or no backing from other sources. Once confrontation lines are

4 fixed, you're no longer able to capture property and then -- and to hence

5 loot it. So your role will then be that of a regular military unit, which

6 doesn't, you know, generate income, as it were.

7 Q. And was that the case, based on your observations, that once the

8 confrontation lines were fixed, there was not much of a role for them to

9 play?

10 A. Indeed, and the number of visible paramilitary soldiers, you know,

11 decreased significantly towards, oh, the end of 1992.

12 Q. I think earlier you said towards the end of 1993. Which was it,

13 the end of 1993 or the end of 1992?

14 A. 1992.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. Sorry. If I said 1993, that's wrong. 1992. After the -- the

17 last major involvement of paramilitaries that I can recall witnessing was

18 one of the battles for one of the airport settlements or the part of

19 Dobrinja late in the summer, I think, of 1992, or in the summer of 1992.

20 And after that, when those confrontation lines were more or less fixed,

21 they were more -- you know, the paramilitary aspect slowly dwindled away.

22 Q. Given your reference to late summer, I therefore take it that by

23 September, if I remember my seasons correctly in the northern hemisphere,

24 there was no role?

25 A. I'm sure there was a role. There --

Page 2306

1 Q. Put it another way --

2 A. You know, I'm not able to give you exact details of Bosnian Serb

3 military operations, but you could still see them. They were, you know,

4 harder to come by. But they would be more than happy to set up their own

5 checkpoints, you know, on the roads in and out of Sarajevo and help

6 themselves to whatever we had in our cars, if indeed not to our cars.

7 Q. Themselves [Real-time transcript read "yourselves"].

8 A. Yes. But that continued for most of the -- but that seemed to be

9 the sort of thing they were more engaged in, and less in actual combat.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hvaal.

11 Mr. President, that completes the examination-in-chief of this

12 witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

14 Just for the sake of the record, I see that at 9:10:36, it says

15 "to whatever we had in our cars." It's my recollection that the witness

16 then said "or our cars." If that is true -- that's what you said,

17 Mr. Hvaal?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So that just for the sake of the transcript, that it

20 should be added, or at least it's corrected now.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise. I was speaking very fast

22 at that point, I think. The question which appears at line 2 of page 5

23 appears as one word, "yourselves." I think in fact I might have them

24 "themselves," referring to the cars.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that --

Page 2307

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready for the

3 cross-examination of the witness?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hvaal.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. In 1995, you gave a statement to the investigators of this

11 Tribunal; is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. After that, on the 14th and 15th of February, 2001, you gave

14 another statement?

15 A. That is correct, yes.

16 Q. As current occupation, in your statement it is stated that you are

17 a photographer, that is, the statement of 1995, whereas in the statement

18 of 2001, your current occupation is described as photojournalist. Would

19 you please tell us whether there's any difference in these two

20 occupations -- between these two occupations?

21 A. Not necessarily. The term "photographer" can be used to span a

22 wider - how shall I say? - array of subjects, but they are used, you

23 know -- you know, they're mixed -- in this context you can call yourself

24 or be called a photographer, photojournalist, photo reporter, documentary

25 photographer.

Page 2308

1 Q. Thank you. You told us that in April 1992 you arrived in

2 Sarajevo. At that time, what was your occupation, officially speaking?

3 Were you a photographer or a photo reporter at that time when you arrived

4 in Sarajevo, or were you a freelance, independent photo reporter, as you

5 said?

6 A. At that point, and throughout most of the work that I did in all

7 of the former Yugoslavia, I was a photojournalist on assignment.

8 Q. If I understand you correctly, you both took pictures and reported

9 about what you had photographed or seen?

10 A. In the media world, the term "photojournalist" refers to a

11 photographer who covers journalistic matters. It doesn't necessarily mean

12 that you report about what you see. The reporting aspect usually

13 refers -- it usually is when it comes to a reporter. But a

14 photojournalist basically means you are a photographer who works with

15 journalistic subjects.

16 Q. In April 1992 when you arrived in Sarajevo, what was your task?

17 What kind of assignment did you have at that time?

18 A. It was a visit with a reporter to do a general assessment on the

19 situation in the city. It was a part of a larger project on the situation

20 in the former Yugoslavia.

21 Q. Your profession, the profession of photo reporter, does that imply

22 autonomous and impartial reporting from the area where you happen to be?

23 A. To the extent that it's possible, yes.

24 Q. At the time you arrived in Sarajevo, how well did you know the

25 city?

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Page 2310

1 A. Are we talking about April 1992 here?

2 Q. Yes, yes. I need some information from you at the time you

3 arrived. That is, when you first came to Sarajevo, did you know the city

4 at that time?

5 I can rephrase the question perhaps and ask you whether that was

6 indeed the first time that you arrived in Sarajevo, that you visit

7 Sarajevo.

8 A. No, that was not the first time I visited Sarajevo. I had gone

9 there on several occasions during -- I was stationed in Belgrade in 1990

10 and 1991 covering the war in Croatia, Eastern Slavonia, more

11 specifically. And as part of that, we on quite a few occasions travelled

12 to Sarajevo from Belgrade.

13 Q. In April when you arrived in Sarajevo, how familiar were you with

14 the situation in Sarajevo?

15 A. I would say about as familiar as any other journalist working for

16 an international media organisation at the time, based in the area

17 obviously.

18 Q. How long did you stay in Sarajevo on that occasion, in April 1992?

19 A. Only for very few days. The assignment was cut short.

20 Q. During those several days that you spent in Sarajevo in April

21 1992, were you able to make an assessment of the situation in Sarajevo in

22 terms of how normal life was in that city? Did it function normally,

23 according to you? What was your opinion?

24 A. No, it did not function normally. There had already been

25 outbreaks of street fighting, and casualties had already become a daily

Page 2311

1 factor.

2 Q. When you say "street fighting," could you tell us who was opposed

3 in that street fighting?

4 A. Units from -- well, in the early stages, there were still units

5 in -- and this is only based on what I could actually see -- units

6 wearing -- soldiers wearing JNA uniforms and soldiers wearing various

7 types of improvised uniforms, soldiers wearing no uniforms at all. Armed

8 civilians, a number of different factions. Situation was fairly confused

9 in April 1992. Depends on when -- we were there very early in April.

10 Q. Did you take pictures of such situations, the situations that you

11 were able to observe in the streets of Sarajevo?

12 A. I did very few photographs during that stay because the assignment

13 was basically aborted for security reasons.

14 Q. You spent quite some time in Sarajevo on the whole. Would it be

15 possible for you to identify the locations where that street fighting took

16 place in Sarajevo?

17 A. We're still talking about the April 1992?

18 Q. Yes, sir.

19 A. Not in a very accurate manner, no. The situation was very

20 confused, and we avoided travelling around as much as possible.

21 Q. So you're unable to identify specific streets and locations where

22 the fighting took place?

23 A. In April 1992, well, I could --

24 Q. If you cannot remember or if you don't know, just tell us.

25 A. Well, the area around Marsal Tito barracks, for instance, would be

Page 2312

1 one of the places. The -- let me see now. Depends on how long you want

2 me to think, but I can probably come up with a few places.

3 Q. The people who, as far as you were able to observe, were armed and

4 were wearing various uniforms, during the time that you spent in Sarajevo,

5 did you come to know who those individuals were and which formations they

6 belonged to?

7 A. In April of 1992, not especially. But later on, yes.

8 Q. When you say "later on, yes", what it is that you learned about

9 those armed individuals and the uniforms that you had seen in April?

10 A. Later on we learned -- or I learned to identify some of the

11 insignia, and also the sort of general choice of uniforms to wear that the

12 different sides would adhere to.

13 Q. You told us about JNA uniforms. I should like to know whether

14 there were any specific marks or signs on the basis of which you could

15 identify the uniforms that were worn by the people you saw in April.

16 Could you describe for us a uniform that you saw.

17 A. I mean, these are -- would mostly be camouflage uniforms. They

18 would have different insignia on them, some with letters, some with

19 symbols. I don't think I could give you, you know, an exact description

20 of the various insignia. But this is now a long time ago. I would have

21 recognised them at the time.

22 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you come to learn what the

23 important characteristics of those uniforms and those individuals were?

24 Did they belong to any specific units? When I say "units," I refer to

25 military formations.

Page 2313

1 A. Are we still talking about April here or are we ...?

2 Q. Sir, we are talking about your stay in Sarajevo. I just need some

3 precision, some explanation for the people that you saw were carrying

4 weapons in April in Sarajevo. Did you later, at any point in time, happen

5 to learn something about them, in view of the fact that you spent almost

6 four years in Sarajevo?

7 A. Well, you learned the fact that there were units belonging to what

8 was still considered to be the Yugoslav army, that there was what was

9 called the Territorial Defence unit, which had their own insignia, I

10 think, at the time. There were also at least two different types of

11 Croatian or Bosnian Croat units involved at the time.

12 Q. Could you tell us what Croatian or Bosnian Croat units you had in

13 mind?

14 A. There were units from what was referred to as the HVO, and at an

15 early stage there was also a unit referred to as HOS, H-O-S, which was not

16 very significant, but it was there.

17 Q. Were Bosnian units -- did Bosnian units also have their insignia,

18 just as these units had?

19 A. When you say "a Bosnian unit," what are you referring to?

20 Q. I mean units that are Bosnian. You said that there were Croat and

21 Bosnian units, or else I misunderstood you. And perhaps you consider the

22 Bosnian and Croat units to be one and the same under the auspices of the

23 HVO.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Ms. Pilipovic, that as far as I can see on

25 my transcript, that the witness said that there were also at least two

Page 2314

1 different types of Croatian or Bosnian Croat units involved at that time.

2 So the witness was talking -- was testifying that there were Bosnian Croat

3 and not Bosnian units. Please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, during your stay in April, were you able to identify any

6 Bosnian units or to learn of their existence?

7 A. I'm not sure what it is that you mean by that question.

8 Q. Witness, you have told us that in April, units of the Territorial

9 Defence took part in the street fighting. Do you know where these units

10 of the Territorial Defence belonged or to whom they belonged and who was

11 in charge of these units?

12 A. Again, it's a very non-specific question. The Territorial

13 Defence -- members of the Territorial Defence units that you met at the

14 time would say that it was a unit consisting of, you know, representatives

15 of all three ethnic groups defending the city against outside aggression.

16 That would be the normal definition that they would themselves make. When

17 you talk about leadership, are you referring to the leadership of the

18 Territorial Defence in Sarajevo?

19 Q. Yes, sir.

20 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure that he was already in place in

21 April, but it was later Mustafa Hajrulahovic, as far as I remember, who

22 was the commander of the TO in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Thank you. When my learned colleague from the Prosecution asked

24 you a question, you spoke about paramilitary units that you had met in the

25 period between September 1992 -- after September 1992 in the areas

Page 2315

1 controlled by the VRS. Could you please tell us: What do you mean when

2 you say "paramilitary units"? What is your definition of a paramilitary

3 unit?

4 A. The general definition used on paramilitary units, and one which I

5 agree to, is a unit that operates using military equipment, uniforms,

6 military-type tactics and command structures, but are outside or not, you

7 know, entirely linked into the regular military system or -- yes, the

8 regular military system in one side of a conflict.

9 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo - and when I mean your stay, I'm

10 referring to the period after your arrival in April until 1995 - did you

11 ever meet any members of paramilitary formations on the other side?

12 A. The other side as opposed to which side?

13 Q. I'm referring to Sarajevo, which was controlled by, as you say,

14 Territorial Defence.

15 A. I don't believe that I said that Sarajevo was controlled by the

16 territorial defence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hvaal, let's try to not lose time. I think the

18 earlier question to you was about paramilitary people in the areas

19 controlled by the VRS which, I understand, is the area surrounding the

20 city. I think the question was about paramilitary groups within the city

21 controlled by whoever at that very moment. But I think that's your

22 intention, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Would you then please answer the question, and the other side is

24 the "in the town" side.

25 A. The answer is yes, I did see.

Page 2316

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you tell us what uniforms they had, if any? Or let me

3 simplify it: How were they dressed?

4 A. In a mixture of various usually camouflage uniforms, sometimes

5 with civilian clothes mixed in, insignia from whatever unit they felt they

6 belonged to. Yeah, but you know, a sort of general -- let me put it this

7 way: The paramilitary units that existed on the -- what we referred to

8 the "Bosnian Government controlled" parts of Sarajevo were not as well

9 equipped and not as uniformly uniformed as their -- as the paramilitary

10 units on the Bosnian Serb side.

11 Q. Could you identify some of the units that you encountered in the

12 parts of Sarajevo controlled by the Bosnian Army and the paramilitary

13 units that you encountered in Lukavica on the area -- in the area

14 controlled by the Bosnian Serb army? When I say "identify," I'm referring

15 to any names that they may have had, and do you know any such names?

16 A. I don't recall the name that the units used about themselves on

17 the -- on the Bosnian Government side, but I recall at least two different

18 units being led by two individuals in Sarajevo. They were active in -- at

19 least in 1993. They were led by people nicknamed - I don't remember their

20 real names now -- but nicknamed, for instance, there was a character

21 called Caco, and another named Celo I think. Something like that. You

22 have to forgive my pronunciation.

23 On the Bosnian Serb side, one would frequently, especially in the

24 beginning of this period, come across some members of the unit that was

25 led by Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan. There was also in the

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Page 2318

1 beginning, but I don't know how long that lasted, a unit on the Bosnian

2 Serb side that referred to themselves as the "White Eagles," but -- and

3 I'm not sure I actually met a live member of that unit. I think I saw

4 some corpses at some point, but I'm not sure I actually met anyone alive

5 from it.

6 Q. You have told us that the paramilitary formations in the territory

7 controlled by the Republika Srpska army functioned up until the end of

8 1992, as far as you know. Is that correct?

9 A. No, that is not correct. They still had a presence, but they did

10 not seem to be militarily very active.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the paramilitary formations on the

12 side controlled by the BH army, the formations that you have just

13 identified for us? So, to be more specific, did they also function

14 independently or were they part of the BH army? Do you have any knowledge

15 of that?

16 A. Again, it's difficult to be 100 percent specific about this.

17 These units would -- how should I say? They would operate more

18 independently than the units within the regular BH army, if you can call

19 it that. Basically, it appeared to us, as outsiders, with the limited

20 knowledge that we had, that these units had more of a choice as to which

21 operations they chose to take part in or not.

22 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you know where the command posts

23 of these units were located?

24 A. I remember going passed one a few times and having it pointed out

25 to me. But I couldn't tell you where that was now. At the time, no. We

Page 2319

1 basically tried to stay away from these units as they were -- all

2 paramilitary forces tend to be bad news for journalists.

3 Q. Thank you. When did you return to Sarajevo in 1992 after having

4 left Sarajevo, as you have told us, after a very short period of time in

5 April?

6 A. In the beginning of June.

7 Q. Did you at that time have any knowledge of where the front lines

8 were in Sarajevo?

9 A. Not in the sense that I had it drawn out on a map to me. And at

10 that stage, they were fluctuating a little bit.

11 Q. When did you go to Lukavica where the barracks were under the

12 control of VRS -- or rather, that was in September. Were you alone, or

13 was there a larger group of journalists that visited that area?

14 A. Well, we went several times. They would usually be more than one

15 journalist. But I went by myself on a couple of occasions also.

16 Q. When you say there were several occasions and there were

17 journalists from other medias, can you tell us what other media these

18 journalists came from?

19 A. Other international news agencies, television stations,

20 newspapers. Basically representatives of media stationed or more or less

21 permanently stationed in Sarajevo.

22 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of these TV stations or

23 newspapers or press agencies that went to visit the territory of the VRS

24 with you?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please indicate to the

Page 2320

1 Chamber, in the light of Rule 90(H), what area we're covering at this

2 moment? Is it the subject touched upon by the examination-in-chief, is it

3 credibility, or is it anything else, please.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in light of the

5 status of Mr. Hvaal as an independent photojournalist and his observations

6 that he presented to us in the course of the examination-in-chief, the

7 Defence would like to check the credibility of this witness, since the

8 witness kept saying, "We were there." And the Defence would like to

9 verify the credibility of this witness by checking who it was that was in

10 the delegation together with him on those occasions when he was not

11 alone. He told us that these were press agencies, news agencies, and now

12 we would like to -- the witness to identify more specifically the

13 journalists who were also with him on his visit to the positions of the

14 Republika Srpska army.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So the credibility issue whether he was alone or not

16 while visiting Lukavica barracks. I'm not quite sure about it, but the

17 question whether he was alone or not was, as far as my recollection goes,

18 not raised in the examination-in-chief. It just said he went to Lukavica

19 barracks. And it was during cross-examination that you came up with the

20 question: Were you alone or were you not alone? So credibility should be

21 limited to the credibility of the examination-in-chief. So if you put any

22 additional questions and then say, "I'm testing the credibility of the

23 witness on these additional questions put to him during

24 cross-examination," I don't think that that's a right understanding of

25 what Rule 90(H) says. Would you please keep this in mind while you

Page 2321

1 continue cross-examining the witness.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. The

3 Defence understands the provision of the Rule 90(H). Let me remind you

4 that in the examination-in-chief, the witness said - I cannot quote the

5 exact page reference - he said, "We were at a briefing in the Lukavica

6 barracks." And my question is, when he says, "We were at a briefing," my

7 question is: Who was at the briefing in the Lukavica barracks? And that

8 was the question that my learned colleague asked right at the beginning of

9 the examination-in-chief.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that there is some doubt, as the

11 Defence is concerned, about whether he was alone or not. Yes. Okay. If

12 that's your answer, please proceed. Still, the matter of relevance

13 of -- is still there, but please proceed and we'll see what will come.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Witness, can you please tell us: When you were in Lukavica at the

16 briefing, could you please identify which news agencies were represented

17 by their reporters there, if any.

18 A. First of all, when I say "we," it means that when we travel in

19 these areas, I personally was never alone. There was always somebody with

20 me. Now, whether this was a Bosnian Serb army officer or fellow

21 colleagues of the media or media that were from the other side, whether

22 they were Bosnian Serb or Yugoslav or media that had come to visit from

23 the other side of the front line. The group could consist of any of

24 these. It was very rare that one -- or basically, you were never all by

25 yourself. That's why I kept saying "we" in this situation.

Page 2322

1 The -- typically the news agencies represented during these trips

2 would be ourselves, Associated Press, somebody from Reuters, somebody from

3 Agence France Presse, somebody from probably CNN or BBC, and SkyNews. Any

4 or all of those, and additional media.

5 Q. Thank you. Since you have now named all those agencies, did you

6 ever, during your visits to the lines where the positions of the Republika

7 Srpska army were, were there ever representatives of the other news

8 agencies there?

9 A. If I understand you correctly, yes, there were -- on occasions

10 there would be representatives of other international news agencies there,

11 yes.

12 Q. During those visits when you all went together, did they also film

13 and interview persons that you met during your visit? Do you have any

14 knowledge of that?

15 A. To the extent that it was possible, yes.

16 Q. You've told us that between September 1992 and August 1994 - let

17 me remind you - you said that you visited the positions held by the

18 Republika Srpska army eight to ten times. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. As an estimate, yes.

20 Q. Did you visit the VRS positions before September 1992 or was that

21 the first time when you went there?

22 A. No. I believe I may have gone before that as well. Yes. I'm

23 pretty certain that I went in June or July, July possibly. Yes, because I

24 went -- yes, I left via the Bosnian Serb-held territory. When I left in

25 August, early September, early September -- no. In August. Sorry.

Page 2323

1 Excuse me. When I left in early August, I went out via Bosnian Serb-held

2 territory, and part of that would include a visit to, you know, some of

3 these areas that were mentioned.

4 Q. Please tell us, at that time in July, which areas did you visit?

5 When I say "areas," I mean areas controlled by the Republika Srpska army.

6 A. I drove -- let me see now. I would have gone, I believe, to -- I

7 think I went to Lukavica in order to obtain necessary paperwork to

8 continue my journey, and then I went from there -- no, I couldn't tell you

9 exactly. It's too -- no, I can't tell you exactly where the locations I

10 went.

11 Q. Would you agree with me that perhaps you did not visit those areas

12 before September 1992? Do you allow that possibility?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you did go to these positions?

15 A. I went to Bosnian Serb-held territory before September 1992, yes.

16 Q. Before September 1992, could you tell us at which positions did

17 you go to. And what I mean is the positions under the control of the

18 Republika Srpska army.

19 A. I can't give you exact locations as to the positions around

20 Sarajevo. It would be first to the airport, and then probably to Lukavica

21 from there. I remember following a UN convoy for part of this trip. And

22 then I went -- from there on, I drove the road, after going through the

23 parts of -- you know, going through the Bosnian Serb-held territory around

24 Sarajevo. I then went -- drove through Bosnia to the border with Serbia

25 on my way to Belgrade.

Page 2324

1 So I am definite that I went there because I still have the

2 receipt that was given to me when my car was confiscated by the Bosnian

3 Serb army on the border with Serbia trying to get to Belgrade.

4 Q. So at the time you were not visiting the positions of the Bosnian

5 Serb army, but you were simply taking -- you were travelling. You were

6 travelling through these areas up to the border with Serbia?

7 A. No, I was doing both at this time, yes.

8 Q. From that journey that you took, could you tell us in which

9 position in relation to the road that you took around Sarajevo, to which

10 position did you arrive and what did you see at that position?

11 A. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand that question.

12 Q. During your journey from Lukavica up to Belgrade in July, did you

13 also visit the positions of the Republika Srpska army?

14 A. Yes, from Lukavica, you are -- at that point, you were in a

15 position of the Bosnian Serb army. The front line was very close to

16 there. At this time, there was very extensive fighting going on in the

17 Dobrinja area, for instance, which is very close to Lukavica, as far as I

18 recall. And that would have been one of the areas that one would have to

19 go to anyway. In my line of work, you try to combine travel and work as

20 much as possible. You try to gather information and observe, if

21 necessary -- or if possible, get photographs as well.

22 Q. When you say that there were clashes around Dobrinja and that the

23 front lines were very near, can you tell us what was the distance between

24 the front lines and who was opposed in these battles in the areas you were

25 travelling through?

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Page 2326

1 A. The distance from Lukavica barracks to the first, at that point,

2 Bosnian territorial defence-held lines would be several hundred metres.

3 Less than a kilometre, depending on how you define the outlines. And yes,

4 it would be the Bosnian Serb army on one side. At that stage, there was

5 still a presence of paramilitaries from -- from -- I'm not entirely sure

6 which unit. But there was a presence of paramilitaries. And then on the

7 other side, yes, there were the Bosnian territorial defence and other

8 units, such as the HVO, for instance.

9 Q. Are you able to estimate which weapons were used in the fighting?

10 What types of weapons were used in the fighting?

11 A. There were -- at this stage, I had been on both sides of the

12 conflict on the confrontation lines in that area. On the -- and with the

13 limited knowledge that I was able to get on the Bosnian Serb army side,

14 there were usual small-arms, machine-guns. In addition, there were tanks,

15 armoured personnel carriers, and aircraft guns, both anti-aircraft

16 machine-guns and machine cannons, and mortars and artillery pieces as well

17 as -- no, I think that was about it.

18 On the Bosnian territorial defence-held side, there was, again,

19 small arms, machine-guns. To my recollection, no anti-aircraft weapons.

20 A few mortars. At that stage, certainly no tanks. But yeah, on both

21 sides -- yeah, no. That would be about the description of the weaponry

22 involved. I think I might have seen rocket launchers, but I'm not a

23 hundred percent sure. They were not very common at that stage.

24 Q. As you were telling us about the weapons, as you say, that

25 belonged to the territorial defence of the Bosnians, you said at the time

Page 2327

1 they did not have tanks. What did you mean by that "at that time"? Do

2 you have any information whether they had tanks at any later stage?

3 A. Are we talking about Dobrinja or Sarajevo here?

4 Q. We are talking about the fighting in Dobrinja and the weapons that

5 were used by the Bosnian territorial defence, specifically in Sarajevo.

6 Your reply was that at the time, they did not have tanks. And I

7 understand that during the fighting for Dobrinja you did not see a tank.

8 Was there one at a later stage and when?

9 A. I know that the Bosnian territorial defence, later the Bosnian

10 Army, at one stage had at least one tank. I don't think I ever saw it

11 moving under its own power. But -- and I never saw it in Dobrinja. But I

12 am not -- you know, I don't know if there was ever a Bosnian Army or

13 Bosnia territorial defence tank in Dobrinja. But at the time I was there,

14 and I was there several times in June, I did not see any armour, any type

15 of armoured vehicles in Dobrinja at that point. Of course, that doesn't

16 mean that there wasn't one, but I did not see any.

17 Q. Thank you. You told us that between September 1992 and August

18 1994, you also visited the positions of the army of the Bosnian Serbs. Do

19 you recall when it was the first time you went and which positions you

20 visited?

21 A. I think the first time was probably a visit to Mount Trebevic. I

22 can't be a hundred percent sure about this, but probably.

23 Q. If we say that that was Trebevic, then, could you tell us what you

24 saw at Trebevic at the time?

25 A. To my recollection, front-line positions in the shape of

Page 2328

1 sandbagged positions and trenches, obviously access roads, that sort of

2 thing. Fortified houses, and troops. I think armoured personnel carriers

3 and --

4 Q. Did you take photographs of the APCs?

5 A. Probably not. It was very restrictive what we were actually

6 allowed to photograph during those visits. But I know I have taken

7 photographs of armoured vehicles and, you know, Serbian -- Bosnian Serb

8 army equipment. But very rarely would you be allowed to do that anywhere

9 near the front lines.

10 Q. Was there a front line nearby? And if there was, how far was it?

11 At that part of Trebevic, do you know where the front line was?

12 A. No, I couldn't give you an exact distance from those very first

13 visits. It's also very often the case that when - and this is on all

14 sides - when military take journalists to -- into combat zones, they don't

15 necessarily take you to the sort of very furthest front line, that you're

16 actually, you know, several lines away from the front. So it is very

17 difficult sometimes to judge whether you are at the actual very first line

18 or if you are one or two lines back from that.

19 In mountainous terrain, obviously like Mount Trebevic, obviously

20 you don't have clearly defined confrontation lines everywhere because they

21 would be impossible to construct. But it was a question of fortified

22 positions on the Bosnian Serb side looking down on fortified positions on

23 the Bosnian government army side, several hundred metres below.

24 Q. Thank you. At the time when you say that you went to Trebevic and

25 when you visited the positions of the Bosnian Serbs, were there troops

Page 2329

1 there in those positions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us what they were wearing?

4 A. Uniforms and sort of standard-issue weapons normally, AK-47s, and

5 at that stage I think many were wearing helmets. Yes.

6 Q. Could you describe for us if this was a military unit and how many

7 soldiers were in it?

8 A. It appeared to be a military unit, because it was reasonably well

9 organised. They all had similar, if not identical, uniforms and

10 equipment, mostly sort of JNA-style equipment and uniforms. And the

11 officer or officers - I don't remember - accompanying was able to, you

12 know, effectively move around without being hindered in any way by these

13 soldiers. It was obvious that there was a chain in command -- a chain of

14 command in place and that they had been, you know, briefed about the fact

15 that we were coming. And, you know, it wasn't a -- it seemed reasonably

16 well organised.

17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, at 11:52, to the question of my colleague

18 whether you had noticed artillery, you answered: "No. We only saw the

19 empty cartridges." Could you tell us, when you said that you did not see

20 artillery, what did you mean by that?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: I don't think that that question fairly puts the

24 evidence of the witness yesterday. He said that in some instances he did

25 not see artillery, but that did not apply across the board, so as to

Page 2330

1 speak. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please quote literally, Ms. Pilipovic,

3 since there's an objection.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it helps to save time, I don't

5 require my learned friend on this occasion to put the exact words, but

6 simply to incorporate into her question that it was only in relation to

7 some of the sites he visited that he did not have his expectation of

8 finding artillery fulfilled. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you, in either way, rephrase your

10 question.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. To the question of my colleague if you had noticed artillery,

13 could you perhaps tell us in which locations you went to and did not see,

14 did not observe artillery. And when I say "positions," I mean the

15 positions of the Bosnian Serb army that you did not notice artillery.

16 A. Well, this is a question -- this would happen either way.

17 Sometimes we would request and be permitted to go to somewhere because we

18 had reason to believe that there was outgoing artillery fire from that

19 location, for instance, on Mount Trebevic. We would then get there and

20 there would, more often than not, not be an artillery piece in the

21 location that we had requested to go, but very often we would see traces

22 of artillery positions, whether it be -- and I can include tanks in that,

23 because very often you can't really tell the difference whether it's

24 outgoing tank fire or outgoing artillery fire. But more often than not,

25 we would not find an artillery piece in the location that we had asked to

Page 2331

1 go to.

2 Q. So in the positions of the army of Republika Srpska, the positions

3 in Mount Trebevic, you just explained that you were in certain situations

4 and that there you did not see artillery; is that correct?

5 A. In certain situations I would not see artillery, and in other

6 situations I would see artillery, yes. But more often than not, there

7 would not be artillery present in the locations that we had requested to

8 go to.

9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, during examination-in-chief, you answered

10 my colleague's question regarding the locations, the elevations that you

11 were able to identify what could be seen on the other side. So if you

12 were on the demarcation line which is under the control of the army of

13 Republika Srpska, what were you able to see or identify on the other

14 side? I will remind you: You said that in those positions you were able

15 to see buildings, streets, cars. Is that correct?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was at

17 11:54:08.

18 A. I believe I said that I could -- it would sometimes be possible to

19 identify cars, meaning that we would, for instance, recognise our own

20 vehicles, and you would also be able to see people, obviously. We're

21 talking about distances of a few hundred yards or metres, a few hundred

22 metres in many cases here. So it's obviously possible in daylight to see

23 people, individual people and groups of people.

24 Q. Could you just be a little more specific about these elevations

25 that you visited and from which you were able to identify buildings, cars,

Page 2332

1 and, as you say, people?

2 A. From positions such as above the Jewish cemetery,

3 from -- certainly from -- well, that's not an elevated position, but from

4 Lukavica you could see people in Dobrinja, but that again is not

5 elevated. From - let me see now - from the area at and around what we

6 referred to as Sharp Stone feature, where you can look down on the

7 Sedrenik area, and also from tall buildings in Grbavica.

8 Q. In your reply just now, you said that the streets, buildings, and

9 pedestrians or people could be also identified from the Sharp Stone

10 feature. Could you tell us if you ever went to the positions of the Sharp

11 Stone?

12 A. I didn't go to the position, the one on Sharp Stone, as such, but

13 I went to one - sorry - to the south-east of it, I believe,

14 east/south-east of Sharp Stone feature, to my recollection. I'm not 100

15 per cent sure, but you could clearly see the Sharp Stone feature position

16 from there. Again, I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the direction from

17 Sharp Stone this position was in.

18 Q. So you did not go to the position of Sharp Stone itself?

19 A. No, not to my recollection.

20 Q. Could you tell us in which part of Sarajevo were these positions,

21 as you say, the Sharp Stone feature?

22 A. Where they are? Where is Sharp Stone feature? Is that what

23 you're asking me?

24 Q. Yes. In which part of the city? How far were you from the Sharp

25 Stone, since you said you did not go to the Sharp Stone? So from

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Page 2334

1 which -- how far were you from it and from which position you saw it?

2 A. I don't recall the name of the location or indeed if it has a

3 name. Obviously, it would be near to the area called Sedrenik, but on the

4 BSA side of the confrontation line. From, I'd say, several hundred metres

5 away from Sharp Stone feature. But exactly how many hundred metres, I

6 couldn't tell you. Less than a kilometre, definitely.

7 Q. Could you tell us, in relation to the city of Sarajevo, where

8 Sedrenik is. And if I can perhaps help you. In relation to where your

9 accommodation was. And to remind you, this was near the Kosevo Hospital.

10 A. It would be north-east, as far as I recall. Sedrenik is roughly

11 north-east, north/north-east, perhaps, from the Kosevo -- Sedrenik is

12 north-east or east from Kosevo Hospital, and Sharp Stone is -- Sharp Stone

13 looks down on Sedrenik from the north, roughly, I think. Yes.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

15 from the map that we have, which is the evidence piece of the Prosecution

16 P3644, the Defence copied a part which encompasses a part of the Kosevo

17 Hospital and Sedrenik. With your permission, Your Honour, I made enough

18 copies of this, and I would like to suggest to the witness if he could

19 identify on this map Sedrenik, as well as the Sharp Stone feature, and

20 perhaps explain where he was at the time when he said that he was in

21 Sedrenik. If he can mark it for us on the map. And that would be the

22 Defence evidence piece D29. With your permission, Your Honour, I would

23 like to ask the witness to have a look at the map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have it tendered

Page 2335

1 as evidence, then.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Of course, the witness has

3 testified, I think several times, that he had some difficulties in

4 finding -- locating the exact spot where he was. So what -- whether this

5 will result in any useful information, we'll have to wait and see, but

6 please keep that in mind when you present the map to the witness. And you

7 also said -- but let me just look. I'm just trying to find the place

8 where he said that he was in Sedrenik. You just asked him to identify

9 the --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday, at

13 12:22:36 -- 12:26, the witness was talking about the Sharp Stone feature,

14 and he also mentioned Sedrenik in his answer to the question of my learned

15 colleague, and he was explaining -- I believe he was telling us about the

16 road that he took up to Sedrenik, and when he was talking about the Sharp

17 Stone in Sedrenik.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to ask

20 Mr. Usher to show a part of the map which is only showing part of the

21 Kosevo Hospital and Sedrenik.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before we start this exercise of

23 marking, perhaps we could have a break first because the ELMO always takes

24 some time. If this would be a suitable moment for you, then we'll adjourn

25 until 11.00, but not after having heard the observation Mr. Ierace seems

Page 2336

1 to want to make.

2 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, Mr. President, thank you for that. It

3 seems to me from what I can see at this distance, this is a map the

4 Prosecution has not previously seen --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand it's part of -- it's indicated by

6 Ms. Pilipovic that it's part of Map P3644. And I can understand if we

7 only need a limited part of it, just a cutout of this map. But during the

8 break, you'll certainly be able to verify whether this is the same black

9 and white big map, or at least part of it.

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll adjourn until 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I spoke to my learned

16 friend during the break, and indeed it is a different map. I now have a

17 photocopy of the relevant portion of that map. I have no objection to the

18 use of a map at all.

19 I also indicate for the record that to my right is Darryl Mundis,

20 a member of the Prosecution trial team. He will be taking some witnesses

21 in the scheduled sniping incident phase of the trial. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, I'm a bit surprised that you present the map as a

24 part of another map which it turns out not to be. But since there's no

25 objection from the Prosecution side, you may proceed. But as you

Page 2337

1 understand, this Chamber always appreciates precision very much.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe I was

3 precise enough. I referred to the map specifically, P63644 -- 3644. It's

4 one of the maps that we received from the Prosecution. And the Defence

5 wishes to use one of these maps, and they are all marked for

6 identification as P3644, all of them. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps if it was not justified, the words I

8 mentioned, please proceed, and we'll not pay much attention to it. And of

9 course, then apologies as well.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness, on this portion of a map which is in front of you, would

12 you please identify the Kosevo Hospital.

13 A. Kosevo Hospital is in this area.

14 Q. I should like to ask you to circle the area and mark it with

15 number 1.

16 A. Which colour would you prefer?

17 JUDGE ORIE: You have to use the --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You have the black one, I think.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. In relation to the hospital, would you please identify for us the

22 area of Sedrenik where you said you were present when the incident took

23 place.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Would you please mark it with number 2.

Page 2338

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Witness, you told us that you had witnessed an incident in

3 Sedrenik when you came across a group of people who were hiding in a

4 building there. Is that correct?

5 A. Hiding behind a building, yes.

6 Q. When I say "building," I refer to the building that you described

7 was located in Sedrenik. And when you spoke about the group of people who

8 were hiding in that building, I would like to ask you to describe for us

9 that particular building in Sedrenik.

10 A. I would say it was a private house or parts of a private house

11 that had been destroyed. But that's as far as I can go. There are

12 several buildings in that area. I couldn't tell you exactly what the

13 building looked like.

14 Q. Would you please identify for us the location which you said is

15 called the Sharp Stone feature in relation to Sedrenik?

16 A. I would say it's in that general area, but I can't give you a one

17 hundred percent precise location. You don't see the elevation very

18 clearly on this map, so it's difficult to see what's high and what's low

19 in the terrain. But it is in the forested area that is above Sedrenik, to

20 my recollection. It's also more or less directly lined up with Visnjik,

21 which is the street I lived on.

22 Q. Would you mark the location with number 3, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. You told us that there was a flag hoisted on the Sharp Stone

25 feature. Is that correct?

Page 2339

1 A. Sometimes, yes.

2 Q. Do you know whose flag it was?

3 A. I would assume it was a Bosnian Serb army flag. It was red,

4 white, and blue striped. You couldn't really tell the details unless you

5 went very close, but -- yes, based on assumption, yes, and the fact that

6 it was known to be a Bosnian Serb army position.

7 Q. In relation to the location where you marked as the Sharp Stone

8 feature location, and you said that VRS positions were there, so in

9 relation to that area, do you know and can you tell us where the BH army

10 positions were? You told us they were some 300, 400 metres below the

11 elevation. If you don't know, just say so, please.

12 A. I can tell you that from my recollection, they would

13 be -- obviously, between these two circles that I've drawn here there

14 would be, as far as I remember, a line of confrontation. Now, this area

15 is very hilly. It's very difficult to draw out the precise confrontation

16 line, and I wouldn't remember what it looked like at a later stage

17 anyway. But basically, the BH army controlled most of the built-up part

18 of Sedrenik, where there were houses, buildings, that sort of thing. And

19 so far as I remember, there's a little bit of a hill, and down in the

20 little valleys and area around here, the confrontation line would run, but

21 in a complicated pattern, without sort of clearly defined confrontation

22 lines. But again, this is -- I can't give you a precise indication of

23 where the lines went.

24 Q. In relation to Sedrenik, where exactly did the line go, the front

25 line go towards the Kosevo Hospital, since you travelled from the Kosevo

Page 2340

1 Hospital towards Sedrenik? If you don't know, just --

2 A. I was travelling with a local translator at the time. We were in

3 a hurry. I don't recall the exact route we took. I remember taking a

4 fairly complicated road to get there, and I don't think we travelled along

5 the confrontation line as such. So I wouldn't be able to tell you, based

6 on that, where the confrontation line went. It would obviously be in our

7 best interest to avoid the confrontation line as much as possible in order

8 to get there and back.

9 Q. In relation to the hospital, since you lived there for a while,

10 would you be able to tell us where the front line was in relation to the

11 hospital, facing north -- both north and south, and then east and west?

12 Where was it?

13 A. Again, it's a rough assumption, but as far as I recall, the

14 nearest area held by the BSA would be in the higher, sort of more

15 mountainous part of this area here.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the map could be adjusted on

17 the overhead projector so that we can see what he's pointing to. Thank

18 you.

19 A. I'm sorry. I would say perhaps as close as this. But again, this

20 would, you know, fluctuate during the war and there wouldn't be, you know,

21 an exact description. And then quite far, I mean several kilometres to

22 the north, before -- you would actually -- yes, at least one, maybe more.

23 Because there was a hill due north of the hospital and the area that the

24 hospital was in. I believe there was a children's hospital or something,

25 maternity hospital, sitting on top of that hill, and beyond that the front

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Page 2342

1 lines were, and also to the west. We're also talking a distance of

2 several hundred, possibly more, metres. But I'm not -- like I said

3 yesterday, I don't have, unfortunately, a photographic memory, so I

4 wouldn't be able to give you an accurate, you know, drawing of the

5 confrontation lines, you know, at any given time during the conflict.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So you don't know where exactly the front line lay in this part of

8 the town?

9 A. I knew at the time, because you could see them, but to remember

10 now that many kilometres of front line based on drawings on a

11 black-and-white photocopied map is very difficult.

12 Q. When you told us that there was an elevation, a hill, above the

13 hospital, do you know the name of that hill, by any chance?

14 A. I can't recall, no.

15 Q. If I tell you that the name of the hill is Hum, would that ring a

16 bell? Did you hear about this hill when you were in Sarajevo? Do you

17 know under whose control that hill was?

18 A. There was a radio and television mast on Hum. Are we talking

19 about the same place here? To my recollection, there is a radio and

20 television mast on top of Hum, unless I'm -- there is? Yes.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. That area was highly contested. I don't think -- I know that the

23 BH army held parts of the mountain, but I can't tell you how far up.

24 There was a Bosnian Serb presence there as well. I remember going there

25 several times and that, you know, it would be a very dangerous area to

Page 2343

1 operate in, but I can't remember exactly how far up it we would be able to

2 go before we would come too close to the confrontation line.

3 Q. You told us you had gone to that hill on several occasions. Did

4 you visit the positions of both sides or just the positions of the BH

5 army?

6 A. On Hum?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I think only of the BH army, as far as Hum is concerned. But I

9 would have been in the area near Hum, but further. I don't think we went

10 onto the actual mountain with the Bosnian Serb army, no.

11 Q. You were there on several occasions. In view of that fact, could

12 you tell us what kind of view one has of Sarajevo from that hill? What

13 part of the town is visible from Hum? And in particular, what exactly is

14 it that you see in town from that elevation?

15 A. I can't give you an accurate answer on that. I know you can see

16 the television masts from large parts of the city, so you have a fairly

17 good view. But as to precisely what angles you can see from that

18 location, no, I can't tell you exactly.

19 Q. Can you tell us approximately what you can see from that hill? I

20 understand it was a long time ago; however, you spent almost four years in

21 Sarajevo, according to what you testified. Can you perhaps remember what

22 is visible from that hill?

23 A. Yeah, I didn't spend four years on Hum, though, and I went to many

24 other high locations. So it's hard to remember what the view is from the

25 different locations. I mean, obviously from that location, you can see

Page 2344

1 the taller buildings. I can't point out exactly -- I don't want to be

2 imprecise and give you an inexact answer, so I'd rather not say

3 specifically which buildings you can and cannot see from that location.

4 Q. You've just told us that while you were in Sarajevo, you went to

5 many other high locations around the town. Could you perhaps tell us, if

6 you know, the names of those hills.

7 A. Well, we've mentioned Trebevic already. Then there are -- to the

8 east where the end of the city as it were, there is an elevated area on

9 both sides of the mountain pass that goes out there. I went to Mojmilo

10 Hill on a number of occasions. I went to the -- I can't remember the name

11 of that, but the sort of built-up area that is north. I can't remember

12 the name now. Sort of in the central part of town but to the north

13 slightly. I can't remember the name, sorry.

14 And then many other places, but it's not -- you know, we don't

15 always write down and note the different names of these different

16 locations. And you try to travel with somebody who knows this so that you

17 can spend your time doing your job rather than reading maps and, you know,

18 not getting lost basically.

19 Q. Thank you. You said that you had gone to Mojmilo hill on a number

20 of occasions. Whose positions were there? Which army controlled the

21 Mojmilo Hill, the VRS or the BH army?

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: The question does not make clear the time to which my

25 friend is referring. Thank you.

Page 2345

1 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. Could you please specify

2 as far as the time is concerned.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to the period

4 between 1992 and 1994. So during that period of time, I should like the

5 witness to tell us when he went to the Mojmilo Hill. And in view of the

6 fact that he had gone there several times, perhaps we can begin by hearing

7 when he went there for the first time and, if he did, whether it was in

8 1992 or later.

9 A. I went there the first time on June 23 of 1992. I walked in with

10 a Bosnian territorial defence unit that was going to Dobrinja. At that

11 stage, there were still Bosnian Serb units in control of large parts of

12 Mojmilo Hill. The western part of Mojmilo Hill where I believe there is

13 some sort of installation, a reservoir or something like that, I can't

14 remember exactly what it is, but the western part of Mojmilo Hill towards

15 Nedzarici was under control of Bosnian Serb forces at that stage when I

16 walked in the first time.

17 To my recollection, in -- during that summer, I would say later in

18 June or in July, that Serb position on Mojmilo Hill fell to the Bosnian

19 territorial defence, and most of Mojmilo Hill was then under the control

20 of Bosnian Government forces.

21 Q. Thank you for your answer.

22 Witness, you testified yesterday that in 1993, you went to the

23 area of Sarajevo where four high-rise buildings are located, four

24 skyscrapers, and you told us that the area in question was Grbavica. Is

25 that correct? Is that the neighbourhood where those four skyscrapers are

Page 2346

1 located?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You told us that you had visited the positions of snipers there.

4 Could you tell us what they were wearing.

5 A. Camouflage uniforms. Basically the same type of uniforms that you

6 came across on most front-line positions on -- you know, in the BSA-held

7 territory. They were similar to the ones that you would see on the

8 checkpoints that we drove through every day. For instance, on the

9 Sierra 4 checkpoint on the road to the airport which we travelled through

10 many times a week, the uniforms and the insignia at that checkpoint was

11 basically very similar to the ones that you would come across elsewhere.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

13 How many snipers were there at the time you went there?

14 A. I'm sorry, I can't really tell you. How would you define a sniper

15 in this context?

16 Q. Witness, my question to you was how many snipers were there at the

17 time you visited the location.

18 A. I can only answer that I was in a sniper position, which I can

19 identify from experience, from having seen it many times before. I can

20 tell you that there were uniformed soldiers there, and that there were

21 rifles and machine-guns equipped with sniper scopes. But I cannot tell

22 you whether or not these people were actually snipers. That is impossible

23 to tell from their uniforms.

24 Q. When visiting those positions, did you go to one of those

25 buildings, or did you go to all of them?

Page 2347

1 A. I believe I went to two of them. I'm reasonably sure I went to

2 two of them, yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us at what floors were you in those buildings?

4 A. Fairly high up, but I can't tell you the exact floors. It's too

5 long ago. I would say at least seven, eight floors, something like that.

6 But you know, you're going very quickly up a staircase which doesn't have

7 windows, and it's difficult to count as you go up and down. You're also

8 conscious of the fact that you're very close to the front line, so you're

9 trying to avoid being seen. So counting floors is sort of not your main

10 preoccupation. So I couldn't give you an exact figure on which floor,

11 no. But fairly high up in the building, yes.

12 Q. You've told us that there were no windows on the buildings. Were

13 those buildings inhabited by people?

14 A. I don't recall saying that there were no windows. That's not

15 correct. These buildings definitely have windows.

16 Q. Did you say that they did not have any doors?

17 A. No, I don't believe I said that either.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the transcript, I read that the witness

19 has testified that on the staircases, there were no windows, which made it

20 difficult for him to find out at what floor he was. I think that's my

21 recollection I think supported by the transcript. If this would clarify

22 the problem --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 A. Can I clarify that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

Page 2348

1 A. Okay. The windows, if there were windows in the staircases, they

2 would have been covered up to avoid detection by people moving up and

3 down. So whether or not there were actually windows in the staircases, I

4 can't remember. But effectively speaking, you can't look out or be seen

5 moving through these staircases, to my recollection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hvaal.

7 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You say that there were curtains. Could you please clarify. Do

10 you know why the curtains were there?

11 A. Curtains?

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. Pilipovic -- there might be a translation

13 problem -- is referring to your answer saying that if there were windows

14 in the staircase, they would have been covered up to avoid detection by

15 people moving. That's what you -- so the cover, whether these were

16 curtains or blankets or sheets I don't think is of major importance. But

17 I think that's what the question was about.

18 A. Okay.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. During your stay in that building, did you talk -- did you meet

21 any people on the eighth floor or on the highest floor where you were, as

22 you said?

23 A. I don't think I went to the highest floor, but I went to one of

24 the higher floors. Yes, I did speak to some people in the building.

25 Q. So on one of the higher floors, as you say, did you see any armed

Page 2349

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Page 2350

1 soldiers there?

2 A. I did indeed, yes.

3 Q. What kind of weapons did they have?

4 A. I believe in at least one of the locations there was

5 obviously -- are you talking about weapons they were carrying or weapons

6 that were there in the room?

7 Q. Weapons that they carried.

8 A. Weapons that they carried. Probably only sidearms, because there

9 were people who were inside rooms in these buildings, and they were within

10 arms' reach of weapons that were stationary there or that were, you know,

11 sitting along the floor, along the wall, or lying on the ground or

12 whatever. But I don't recall anyone, except perhaps for the soldier who

13 accompanied me up the stairs, who might have been carrying an AK-47, I

14 don't recall anyone holding a long-barrelled firearm inside the building.

15 Q. Thank you. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you have an

16 opportunity to visit any sniper emplacements or any locations where

17 snipers were located in the parts of the town, of the city, controlled by

18 the BH army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you give us a more precise location for the emplacements in

21 relation to the part of the city where you were? So in what parts of the

22 city were they?

23 A. I only went to a Bosnian -- to Bosnian -- or Bosnian government,

24 at that time, Territorial Defence sniper positions, fairly early in the

25 conflict. No. I'll correct that. I went to some locations, and I can't

Page 2351

1 remember the name of the building now, but it is basically -- it's not far

2 from the -- it's to the west, as far as I remember, of the Holiday Inn.

3 But this is very inaccurate, but it's in that general area. This would

4 have been in 1992. And it was just after I arrived, so my memory is not

5 to be relied on in that -- as to exactly where it was. I did go to sniper

6 positions later on in the Stup, Hadzici, Otes area on several occasions.

7 They were part of the -- but they were not in high-rise buildings,

8 obviously, because there aren't any -- or there weren't any in the bits

9 that I went to. And they were -- yes. No, they were not in high-rises in

10 that part of town. But yes, we -- I mean, I and colleagues would see and

11 hear snipers operating. This is in the definition of a sniper as somebody

12 firing from a hidden location.

13 Q. Thank you. You explained to us yesterday what, according to you,

14 is a sniper. At 12:54:59, you spoke about having seen people strolling in

15 Sarajevo, walking in Sarajevo, and that these people were targeted by

16 small arms. Is that correct?

17 A. Of having seen people walking in Sarajevo being targeted by small

18 arms? Yes.

19 Q. Could you please specify the locations where you saw people being

20 fired at as they walked.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: The question is unreasonable, because the witness

24 gave evidence yesterday that that type of activity happened continually

25 throughout the time he was there. Therefore, in order for the witness to

Page 2352

1 specify those locations would clearly be a task that would serve no

2 probative value.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, would you please explain to this

4 Chamber the relevance of the exact locations, and could you also spend one

5 or two words on the efficiency of examining in this respect, because, you

6 know, efficiency is also one of the things you have to keep in mind.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness told us

8 yesterday that people were targeted or fired on from small arms as they

9 walked around in Sarajevo. I simply want -- the witness never told us

10 that it was a constant occurrence. He said that he had seen people

11 walking around in Sarajevo in his capacity as a photographer and that they

12 were fired on from small arms. The relevance of this issue lies in the

13 fact that we are talking about the sniping campaign, and I want this

14 witness to specify at what time it was - I mean the period of 1992 to

15 1994 - and if indeed it was a frequent occurrence, if he can describe one

16 of the incidents that he had seen and where the incident took place.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, but describing one of the incidents

18 is something different from pointing to all locations where you saw it. I

19 think that's part of our problem. So could I suggest to you that you

20 first ask to the witness on how many occasions he did see it. If he would

21 say two or three, of course it would be perfectly acceptable to ask for

22 the specific locations. If he comes up with a far higher number, that you

23 just pick out one or two or three and ask the witness to describe that.

24 Would that be a suggestion that would solve your problem and the problem

25 of the Prosecution as well?

Page 2353

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, my question was

2 if he could specify the locations, and then my next question would have

3 been what he had seen at that location and whether an incident had

4 occurred there, and if he could describe them. But anyway, I will ask the

5 following question:

6 Q. How many times did you witness, during your stay in Sarajevo,

7 people being targeted by small arms fire, as you said yourself?

8 A. Again, this would be a very rough estimate, because I spent a long

9 time there and this was a very frequent occurrence. But --

10 Q. You say a frequent occurrence. What would that mean to you, for

11 instance, in a one-month period or a one-year period?

12 A. Well, it depends whether you're talking about what I personally

13 saw in terms of bullets impacting and/or people being fired at or what we

14 gathered as information by interviewing people, for instance.

15 Q. What you saw.

16 A. I'd say somewhere between 30 and 50 times perhaps, something like

17 that, but I can't give you a 100-per-cent exact number on that.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question in view of

19 the answer. I know that sounds a little strange, but the point is that

20 the question did not specify the time period other than whilst the witness

21 was in Sarajevo, which we know to be between 1992 and I think 1997. The

22 answer requires some clarification whether the figure of 30 to 50 times is

23 per month, and if so, whether it's during the indictment period. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was how many times a month, and

Page 2354

1 the answer did not specify and said 30 to 50 times. Could you, Mr. Hvaal,

2 please indicate whether 30 or 50 times means during your whole stay in

3 Sarajevo or per month.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my question was

6 either in a one-month period or in a one-year period.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness was at the point of responding.

8 Would you please continue, Mr. Hvaal.

9 A. It would be very rough arithmetic here, but we're talking several

10 times a week, so -- and that, again, you have to add up with how many, you

11 know, weeks were spent in and out of Bosnia and such. But yes, several

12 incidents a week. I mean, two -- two to five, sometimes more, ten, but

13 obviously varying greatly from week to week. But it was -- from --

14 basically until 1995, you could be -- you could very easily drive around

15 Sarajevo and find somewhere where people were being fired at with small

16 arms. It was not -- you know, it was easy. It was not something that you

17 would go looking for necessarily. You would hear it. The sound of it was

18 constant, and with a little bit of effort, you could easily go to a place

19 and find people being fired at, every day if you wanted to.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I suggest to you that you ask for

21 the details of some incidents, because "a couple of times a week" makes

22 over a hundred a year, and over 200 for two years, at least.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. How many such incidents did you personally see in any given week,

Page 2355

1 and did you see where the fire had come from?

2 A. You would have to then specify the week. I probably wouldn't

3 remember that. And you know, it's an -- for me, it's an impossible

4 question to answer.

5 Q. Did you ever see from which positions fire was opened at people --

6 at the people in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. In what month did you see that, and what was the incident?

9 A. Many, many times. I mean, do you want a specific example or?

10 Q. Could you describe for me one of those incidents that you saw.

11 A. Well, I think I gave a description yesterday of an incident which

12 an old woman was killed in which it was --

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. -- it was possible to ascertain the angle of the incoming fire. I

15 can repeat that if you want. It is a most -- because I have the

16 photographs of it.

17 Q. There's no need. Do you mean the photograph that you explained to

18 us yesterday, the photograph that you spoke about in the course of the

19 examination-in-chief which was shown to you by my learned colleague

20 regarding a lady, an elderly lady, that you photographed in front of the

21 morgue? Is that the incident that you're speaking about?

22 A. That would be the incident, yes.

23 Q. Did you photograph the site where the incident took place?

24 A. Not on this occasion because I was busy trying to be of some

25 assistance. To my recollection, at least I didn't use that photograph.

Page 2356

1 Q. Did you take photographs, the people, the victims of sniping, on

2 other occasions in Sarajevo? Do you have those photographs? Did you take

3 any photographs?

4 A. I believe that in this pile of photographs, there is one of people

5 being fired at. Is there a vertical of some people -- it's the one that

6 was used to illustrate the presence of an ambulance yesterday.

7 Q. Yes, I have that photograph in front of me. I will show you this

8 photograph, and then I will be asking you some questions. If you can, for

9 instance, tell us in which street and in what part of the city you

10 photographed the people being fired at.

11 Can you tell us the angle of incoming fire that was targeting

12 these people here?

13 A. No, I'm afraid that would be inaccurate. I don't have an accurate

14 recollection of this incident. It was one of many, and I can't tell you

15 the exact details surrounding this particular incident because this is

16 something we did on a daily basis.

17 Q. So you do not know from where fire was opened at these people that

18 you photographed?

19 A. I'm sure I would have known at the time. But now, I can't

20 identify the exact location, and I have -- I haven't got an exact memory

21 of taking this photograph because I have -- I have been in this situation

22 many times.

23 Q. You were in a situation many times to see people being fired at in

24 Sarajevo. On those occasions, did you report that to the authorities in

25 Sarajevo? Did you know whom to talk to, whom to report such incidents?

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Page 2358

1 A. It is not our job as journalists to become engaged in observing

2 details and military information for either side in a conflict. If we

3 have information that in -- whether it's, you know, technical military

4 information in terms of details of ballistics, things like that, this is

5 not something that we would report to any authority as such. We would do

6 as anyone would. We would try to help victims. We would try to stop

7 people from crossing streets where we knew that there was a danger, a risk

8 of being hit. But in terms of reporting this, other than reporting it as

9 part of our news coverage, which we did extensively, it is not our role or

10 should not be our role to be any kind of military observer in this

11 situation.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you how much time you still need, because

14 you are coming close to the time.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Five more minutes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this witness

18 the photograph that he spoke about when the Prosecution asked him some

19 questions, and we would also have some questions concerning this

20 photograph.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this

23 photograph to the witness. It is photograph number 5584.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think we always should use -- we should use the

25 copy which is in the hands of the registrar because that will be the

Page 2359

1 originals that will be tendered into evidence. Could you please indicate

2 what's on the photograph, Ms. Pilipovic, so the registrar knows which

3 photograph to hand out.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a photograph of a cemetery.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You told us that you took this photograph in winter 1992/1993. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Do you know, can you please tell us, what are these buildings that

11 can be seen behind the cemetery on this photograph? Do you have any

12 knowledge of that? You said that you went to the cemetery quite often.

13 A. The round building is what was then the trauma unit at Kosevo

14 Hospital.

15 Q. You told us that when you took this photograph, that some minutes

16 after that - I will not be more specific than that - that two shells

17 impacted there. Is that correct?

18 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I think the evidence was

19 there were at least two shells.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept, at least two impacts,

22 shell impacts.

23 Q. Could you please indicate the locations where these shells, at

24 least two shells, impacted?

25 A. First one would have been -- first one would have been here,

Page 2360

1 roughly halfway between the group of mourners here and the woman. And the

2 second one beyond, and I believe slightly to the right, from my point of

3 view. But beyond on the other side of this group of mourners which had

4 then by that time had started moving up this way.

5 Q. Did you see where the shells had come from?

6 A. No. These were 82 millimetre mortar shells, by what we could

7 identify from their tail fins, and they are very -- you know, it was very

8 hard to determine where they are coming from when they are fired.

9 Q. Did you photograph the impact sites where the shells fell, as you

10 said, two or three minutes after you had arrived there?

11 A. I don't believe I did. It wouldn't have much interest as a -- in

12 terms of journalistic interest, it would be a hole in a ground. It may

13 also have looked rather grotesque given that it's a cemetery. So I don't

14 think so, unless there was something particularly interesting about it.

15 You normally wouldn't photograph just a shell impact.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, in the interest of accuracy,

17 might I correct something that my friend said in her question. She

18 referred to the shells falling two or three minutes "after you had arrived

19 there". In fact, the evidence was that the shells fell a few minutes

20 after he took the photograph. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe that

23 I was not precise enough, but I do know that the witness said that he took

24 this photograph, and that the shells fell after that. I merely want to

25 ask him if he photographed the impact sites.

Page 2361

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't think that -- of course, your objection

2 is perfectly justified, Mr. Ierace. I don't think it's of any relevance

3 as far as the answer of the witness is concerned.

4 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So did you photograph the impact sites where the shells fell?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that question has already been answered,

8 Ms. Pilipovic, if I'm correct, and even the explanation why he did not

9 photograph it.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to ask him -- I'm

11 going to ask the witness whether there was any damage in the places where

12 the shells had landed, if he had photographed them, although he said he

13 hadn't photographed them.

14 Q. Was there a grave, tomb site, that was perhaps damaged through the

15 impact of the shells when they landed, and did you see any damage on any

16 of the grave sites?

17 A. This particular cemetery was hit by incoming artillery on a daily

18 basis, basically. So there would have been --

19 Q. I am just -- I was just wondering whether you could answer my

20 question, whether you saw the damage at that time from the shells that

21 landed then. Did you see it, and was there any damage?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer that question, Mr. Hvaal.

23 A. I saw that there was damage because there was some of the head

24 boards that were cut down. Given the fact that there was active shelling,

25 I didn't stay around to investigate. But I could see that there had been

Page 2362

1 an impact.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Considering you went there often, did you come again and

4 photograph that place where the damages were?

5 A. That would, unless there was something unusual about it, not have

6 any journalistic value so I probably didn't. I can't recall. But I

7 probably would not. And anyway, it was normally repaired quite quickly.

8 At night, these impacts --

9 Q. I am -- so you did not photograph the locations where there was

10 shell damage. You did not take any photographs. Is that correct?

11 A. I mean, I photographed the cemetery again many times, but that

12 particular shell impact? Probably not.

13 Q. Do you have other photographs that you took of the cemetery?

14 A. Many, yes.

15 Q. You still have those photographs? You have them personally?

16 A. Some of them I have. Some of them would be with Associated Press

17 files in New York, I assume.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

20 I will just ask one more question.

21 Q. While you were in the positions under the control of the Bosnian

22 Serb army - and I'm talking about the period September 1992 to

23 1994 - during that time, did you ask permission to see the cemeteries on

24 that side in the parts of town that were under the control of the Bosnian

25 Serb army?

Page 2363

1 A. I believe I went to a cemetery near Ilidza. I think near Ilidza

2 at some point, yes. I think we followed -- I think we followed a group of

3 mourners from the morgue in Ilidza. That would have been in --

4 Q. Did you take photographs? Did you take photographs of that

5 cemetery and of that group of mourners? You can just answer by yes or by

6 no.

7 A. I would have to say I think so, because I don't remember exactly

8 what happened. I'm sorry, I can't give you a precise answer to that.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

10 Defence has no further questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 Mr. Ierace, is there any need for re-examination?

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, only in relation to what the witness

14 indicated in respect of the photograph which is presently on the overhead

15 projector, that is, 5584.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

17 Q. Mr. Hvaal, you refer to the photograph and described the positions

18 in which the first two shells fell. For the benefit of the transcript

19 record, I think you indicated in respect of the first shell a position on

20 the line that one might imagine drawn between the funeral party and the

21 hand grip on the axe, that is, the woman's hand grip on the axe. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I think you said that following the first explosion, the funeral

25 party moved into a direction that you indicated on the photograph. I

Page 2364

1 think that direction was to the left of the funeral party. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. That was -- yes, that would be correct.

4 Q. And you indicated that the second shell fell in the position to

5 the right of the funeral party as it appears in the photograph; is that

6 correct?

7 A. To the right and slightly beyond, seen from the photographer's

8 point of view here. Further downrange, as it were.

9 Q. All right. In relation to where the second shell fell, did you

10 notice if there was anything in that area immediately before the shell

11 fell? In other words, did there appear to be any apparent target of any

12 description, apart from headstones and fresh graves?

13 A. Are you talking about the first shell or the second shell here?

14 Q. The second shell.

15 A. Basically, the situation was the same as here except people had

16 begun to scatter. Some people were still lying on the ground, as I was,

17 because these -- many of these graves at this point are frozen and they

18 provide reasonably good cover when you're between them. It came in quite

19 useful many times. Many people were lying down. Other people were

20 running to get away. So there would still be a sort of slightly more

21 spread-out group of people in that area. But apart from that, no. I

22 mean, there isn't -- there are no -- you know, apart from the hospital,

23 there's no obvious target, obvious -- you know, anything to latch onto in

24 that area, no.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

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Page 2366

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

2 Has one of my colleagues on the Bench have any additional

3 question? Yes, please, Judge Elmahdi.

4 JUDGE ELMAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I would like to ask

7 you if you could tell me something about what you called yourself the

8 pattern of sniping, since, unless my memory fails me, I believe that the

9 sniper was targeting the lower part of a body, that he wasn't -- that his

10 objective wasn't to kill, but that the people who were coming to help the

11 victim, either they were within the target -- so that they would also be

12 targeted. So is your impression that this targeting did not have the

13 objective to kill, but it was an intention -- was there a killing

14 intention or only to terrorise or to maim the largest number of people as

15 possible?

16 A. The lower part of the body is the easiest part to hit because it's

17 the widest. It's where you have the most mass to fire at. So it's the

18 obvious target, especially when the target is moving, running, like these

19 people would often be. With normal ammunition fired from sniper weapons,

20 that does not give an immediate kill. The victim will usually fall down

21 and be unable to get back up but will not be dead; will be moving, can

22 talk, that sort of thing. Now, at that stage, it might be possible for

23 the sniper to finish off this victim if his intention were solely to kill

24 the target. You can then -- you then have a stationary target to fire at,

25 which would quite easily -- could quite easily be done. However, it was

Page 2367

1 our experience that quite often there would not be any further firing at a

2 stationary-hit target, but that further -- you know, when additional

3 people would move into the street or into the location to try and help the

4 first target, the first victim, they would then be fired upon in a similar

5 manner. This could sometimes escalate into a situation with several

6 wounded people who would eventually, -- first people would start to die of

7 blood loss, and before you could organise a safe evacuation and get these

8 people to hospital, many of them would indeed die. But it would appear

9 that this had no -- this served no military purpose, since many of these,

10 not to say most of these victims, were civilians, by our definition. It

11 would appear that this didn't serve a military purpose, and it would be

12 very hard to find any good reason why this would be necessary. This

13 pattern is confirmed if you look at the -- what we found from visiting the

14 morgues, from visiting the hospitals. You could see casualties coming in

15 with these types of injuries. And yes, I'd say there was a pattern of

16 attempting to hit as many people as possible in these locations, without

17 there being an obvious military reason for it.

18 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Just to check something. So

19 you believe that the lady who is on the photograph who was hit in the

20 head, it was really an exception. So immobile targets, stationary

21 targets, were not targeted as a rule?

22 A. She had already been immobilised with a hit to the lower body, and

23 I think -- no, I'm pretty certain that she was only hit in the head when

24 people were actually approaching her, you know, when we were trying to

25 provide cover and get her to safety. So I'm not in a position to guess

Page 2368

1 what was going on in the mind of whoever fired, but the appearance of the

2 armoured Land Rover would have been obvious, because it's a large, easily

3 recognisable vehicle. I can only guess that, you know, this would be the

4 last opportunity to take out this target before we would be able to cover

5 it. But that would be a guess, you know. But ...

6 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Go on. You were going to speak

7 some more?

8 A. Basically, one would very often get the impression that these

9 people who were, you know -- the pattern of these sniper incidents were

10 people having, you know, a fairly morbid kind of fun with this. People

11 would be frightened. You know, they would wait for somebody to cross the

12 street, fire at the first people, not fire at the second person, fire

13 close to people to make them turn around and run back, fire at water cans

14 that were sitting in an intersection that had been dropped by someone and

15 then people would go out, try to hit -- you know, try to pick up the water

16 can. You know, there would be bullets impacting around it or in it to

17 make people go back. This sort of thing was fairly normal. I mean, it

18 happened to us as well. We were fired at on a fairly regular basis going

19 on official business to and from the airport, for instance, where our cars

20 would come under fire. And they would fire at the TV markings on our

21 cars. This was, you know, something that -- a fairly regular occurrence.

22 And didn't seem to have any -- I mean a large journalist's vehicle

23 travelling on the airport road in Sarajevo doesn't have any military

24 function. You know, everyone is warned in advance that it's coming and we

25 were still fired upon.

Page 2369

1 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Just one last question,

2 please. When you were in the positions of the snipers, were you present

3 when there was sniping? Did they actually shoot in front of you while you

4 were present?

5 A. No, they did not. I was able to look through the position to see

6 roughly where the target area would be. It's fairly easy to figure out,

7 because it's an axis that goes through two holes inside the position. But

8 no, I don't -- no, there was no firing going on from that position then.

9 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question to you, Mr. Hvaal,

11 related to the questions put to you by Judge Elmahdi. Since in my

12 estimate the distance between well, let's say, the heart and the lower

13 part of the body is some 40, 50 centimetres, would you assess that people

14 using sniper rifles at the distances we are talking about would have a

15 precision of 40, 50 centimetres, or would the skill and the weaponry be

16 good enough to make a distinction 40, 50 centimetres, or would you say

17 that some luck or at least some chance was involved as well?

18 A. I'd say it depends obviously on the skill and the level of

19 technology involved here. Yes, you can hit with accuracy a running target

20 in the abdomen from out to several if not many hundred metres if you have,

21 you know, a trained, professional sniper. If you get to the average

22 sniper that you come across in these areas, I would say it's a question of

23 shooting lower rather than shooting high. If you're going to err, then

24 you err below rather than err above, as it were. So you sort of -- you

25 tend in the area, you know, to aim low rather than high, as it were. So

Page 2370

1 you would be able to, over a period of time, have more consistent lower

2 body hits than upper body hits, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answer. So this

4 concludes the examination, Mr. Hvaal. I'd like to -- well, before I let

5 you out of the courtroom, I think we have still documents at this moment

6 to be admitted into evidence. That's P3625, a set of five photos. That's

7 one document. No objections? So therefore it's admitted into evidence.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I should point out that I didn't ask

9 the witness any questions about one of those photographs. My friend may

10 therefore properly object to its tender. Photograph 5585.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I know that the Registry usually would not like

12 to split up any documents. Would, Ms. Pilipovic, would you object against

13 the admittance into evidence of this one photograph? No questions have

14 been asked about? Otherwise we have to redefine this exhibit.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can just be

16 given the exact number of the photograph. Which photograph out of these

17 five is it?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry. I had to change my channel. The

19 photograph that has not been used is the photograph with the number at the

20 end 55 -- let me just -- 85. It's one lady --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. We have no

22 objection to have this entered.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So then the Exhibit P3625 is admitted into evidence.

24 Then we have Defence document D29, a map. And as far as I understand,

25 there are no objections against that as well. So this map, D29, is also

Page 2371

1 admitted into evidence.

2 Mr. Hvaal, I would like to thank you for answering all the

3 questions of the parties and of the Bench and bringing the information

4 into this courtroom which will certainly assist us in taking decisions

5 which we'll have to take. Thank you very much for coming.

6 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Mr. Hvaal out of the courtroom.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you asked an opportunity to make some

9 observations about the witnesses to come, and please proceed.

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Essentially, I wish to

11 alert the Trial Chamber and the Defence to an anticipated problem that we

12 may have next week. Firstly, the Prosecution notified the Defence on the

13 17th of January of its intention to call six witnesses, and there will not

14 be any contravention of the seven-day rule in relation to those six

15 witnesses. In other words, they will all be called with at least seven

16 days' notice. Indeed, I think it was four witnesses on the -- by letter

17 dated the 21st of January and two by the letter dated the 17th of January.

18 Mr. President, the estimates given of the length of testimony in

19 chief for those witnesses, on reflection, will not be met. In other

20 words, I expect that we will call the witnesses and complete their

21 examination-in-chief well within the time estimates which we notified

22 earlier to the Trial Chamber and to the Defence. Consequently, I

23 anticipate that instead of those witnesses taking some six hearing days in

24 terms of combined examination-in-chief and cross-examination, they are

25 likely to take more in the order of two hearing days. The effect of this

Page 2372

1 is that further notification to the Defence of witnesses and exhibits is

2 likely to result in witnesses being called within the seven days.

3 Secondly, the Victim and -- Victims and Witnesses Unit may encounter

4 difficulties in securing the attendance of those witnesses, those

5 additional witnesses, so as to ensure a smooth continuation of evidence in

6 the Prosecution case.

7 Mr. President and Your Honours, this is a problem which arises

8 because in effect the Prosecution is about to change gear. We are now

9 expecting to move much faster. I apologise for any break in the

10 continuity of evidence that may ensue and, secondly, for any modification

11 of the seven-day Rule that may be required.

12 I seek to add these further matters in relation to that: I note

13 that there were some outstanding issues which could, in my respectful

14 submission, be dealt with profitably if there is a break in evidence. I

15 have in mind such issues as the 92 bis ruling. If there is a break of

16 some hours or a day or so, it would give the Defence an opportunity to

17 arrive at a conclusion in relation to the 92 bis statements, and also

18 allow time for debate of that issue, as well as further discussion of the

19 videolink issue. And perhaps, more substantively, some deliberation as to

20 whether a certain view will take place. I don't want to say too much

21 about that whilst we're in public hearing. But that last issue could well

22 take some time.

23 Mr. President -- I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

25 MR. IERACE: I might also briefly indicate that yesterday, in

Page 2373

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Page 2374

1 particular, last night the Prosecution sent by fax to the Defence a letter

2 outlining details in relation to some additional witnesses. I think some

3 nine witnesses. I have been advised in the last few minutes that there

4 may be some difficulty on the part of the Victims and Witnesses Unit

5 meeting that order. I will make some more inquiries over the break, and

6 of course I will speak to my learned friend.

7 Mr. President, the Prosecution is, of course, mindful of your

8 requirement that each Friday - and today is Friday - a table be provided

9 to the Defence and to the Trial Chamber setting out the witnesses and

10 exhibits and dates of disclosure of proposed exhibits for the following

11 week. That, of course, will be done. I expect that will be done by

12 around mid-afternoon, and we will be available to discuss that with the

13 Defence.

14 And finally today, if it hasn't occurred already, shortly we will

15 file with the Registry details which were sought following yesterday's

16 hearing in private session; and secondly, some further information in

17 relation to videolink evidence.

18 Mr. President, after this current discussion is completed and

19 before I call the next witness, I would be grateful for an opportunity to

20 outline for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, including my learned friend,

21 some aspects of the technical evidence that will be called not only in

22 relation to the next witness but in relation to sniping witnesses

23 generally. I anticipate that Your Honours and Mr. President will find

24 that very useful in understanding the Prosecution evidence on the

25 scheduled sniping incidents. Thank you.

Page 2375

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Let me say it quite bluntly:

2 This Chamber, of course, is not very happy to be explained to it every

3 Friday why the requirements could not be met, and so I would like not to

4 make this a tradition for the near future. I noticed that there are two

5 problems; one problem is meeting the seven-day Rule, which is an absolute

6 minimum requirement; and the other one is the Witnesses and Victims Unit.

7 If the Witnesses and Victims Unit could not arrange for the appearance of

8 the witness in this Court, it could forget about the seven-days Rule

9 because that's not a problem that exists in respect of that witness any

10 more. So therefore, I would like to be very practical and see exactly

11 what problems could be solved by the Witnesses and Victims Unit, and then

12 see whether there are any objections as far as the seven days' Rule is

13 concerned.

14 So if you would, perhaps, at a later moment inform this Court more

15 in detail what actually is possible and is not possible. And if it turns

16 out that the witnesses could not appear because of logistical problems or

17 preparation of their appearance in this Court, then of course we have to

18 decide what to do, either to order you to change the order of presentation

19 of evidence and see what evidence would be immediately available and see

20 whether this would be fair to the Defence to be confronted with that. I

21 think we still have to think about it a bit more.

22 But we would like to have clear information if you say Witness X,

23 Y, or Z cannot be present at the scheduled time, let's say next Thursday,

24 we can avoid any discussions about whether it would have been fair if he

25 would have appeared next Thursday because of not having given proper time

Page 2376

1 to the Defence to prepare for the examination of this witness, the

2 cross-examination of the witness. So we would like to have detailed

3 information. As a matter of fact, in order not to waste any time in

4 Court, I prefer to have this information clearly in writing, if it's just

5 a short note, so that we don't have to be explained everything about it.

6 These small notes could be marked for identification so that everyone

7 knows later on what we are discussing at that time.

8 I think it's now time for the break anyhow. You explained to us

9 what the problems were. If Ms. Pilipovic, before having the break, would

10 add anything to that, I can imagine that she is not quite happy with what

11 has just been reported. But if you would make some additional remarks,

12 please do so, Ms. Pilipovic. But I don't think we are going to take a

13 decision right away.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I can do is to

15 advise the Chamber that it was yesterday at half past 10.00 that I

16 received the document of my learned friends dated 24th of January. I

17 received a copy thereof this morning as well. I haven't had time to study

18 the document and see for myself what changes we are talking about and what

19 witnesses will be effected. So I cannot state my position at this point.

20 However, the proposal that you presented to my colleagues I think

21 is a very good one, that is that we should inform the Chamber briefly in

22 writing as to how things stand. I think the Defence could do the same.

23 We could inform you in writing of our position regarding this document and

24 also about the submissions made by my learned colleague from the

25 Prosecution today.

Page 2377

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. So then we have a break

2 until 10 minutes to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you're standing. Is there any additional

6 thing, or are you just prepared for examining the next witness?

7 MR. IERACE: Two matters, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: Firstly, by way of update, I anticipate that I will

10 have a letter to hand up to you, Mr. President, and Your Honours, at any

11 stage from 1.30 p.m. onwards, setting out the relevant updated

12 information. So if it is convenient to the Trial Chamber to conclude the

13 witness's evidence shortly before 1.45, that could then be further

14 discussed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: I want to make clear that I did not mean any

17 criticism of the Victims and Witnesses Unit in my earlier comments. The

18 fault lies squarely with me, and in turn, it arises because of our reduced

19 estimates as to the length of the sniping witnesses.

20 Mr. President, the second issue is, as I earlier anticipated, I'd

21 like to say something as to the use of video and electronic photographs in

22 this next phase, that is, the scheduled sniping incident phase. Further

23 to that, I'd be grateful if we could show the video and electronic

24 photograph at the outset, before the witness enters the room, and in

25 closed session, so that we can all be assured that the material does not

Page 2378

1 offend the orders in relation to the use of pseudonyms and face

2 distortion, and that we can all become familiar with how the video and the

3 electronic photograph can be used, if that is convenient to you,

4 Mr. President, and Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, do you -- would you like to respond

6 or ...?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as regards the use of

8 video and electronic photographs, I can inform the Chamber that I have

9 received the video material today, that is, the video material for this

10 witness, and that after that I will be able to state my position as

11 regards the proposal of my colleague.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any new material in -- or is this part of

13 the explanation of how it technically functions, Mr. Ierace?

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is an edited version of what was

15 provided to the Defence in November. I have explained that to my friend

16 and to Mr. Piletta-Zanin at our meeting on Tuesday, and Mr. Piletta-Zanin

17 expressed satisfaction with the proposed edited version, and that is what

18 my friend would have received this morning. The video -- if I could

19 explain at this stage, Mr. President, what is in the video, it might

20 assist in understanding the nature of the editing.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- I can't make him

22 confirm his satisfaction with it, but let's just proceed.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, whenever we come at a point where you say, "Well, I

24 cannot be taken to be properly prepared for this situation," please

25 immediately inform the Chamber. So we'll proceed and see how far we go.

Page 2379

1 Mr. Ierace --

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do I understand well that this short

4 introduction, that would be in closed session? So we are now, I think,

5 not in closed session. Let me just ask in between, Mr. Ierace: Did you

6 inform the technical booth that you needed some time in closed session?

7 Because I think we are prepared for pseudonym and face alteration. Did

8 you give any additional information to the technical booth as far as a

9 closed-session explanation of these materials is concerned?

10 MR. IERACE: I did not, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would suggest that we proceed -- let me just

12 listen to what the registrar has to tell me.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: It will take us one or two minutes to prepare for a

15 closed session.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think we require a closed

17 session for most of the explanation, so I could certainly commence that

18 and indicate at what point closed session is required.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether they can switch from one

20 moment to the other from closed session into private session or -- I think

21 we perhaps had better wait one or two minutes, and I think it would have

22 been better to inform the technical booth before that we would start, at

23 least partially, in closed session. But let's just wait for one or two

24 minutes. And I add that we did not understand your remarks as far as the

25 Witnesses and Victims Unit is concerned as any criticism, but just a

Page 2380

1 statement of the actual situation.

2 [Closed session]

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, could you please call your next witness.

22 Mr. Usher.

23 I can inform, Mr. Ierace, that lightening the photograph seems not

24 to be a problem any more. So if you want to use that photograph where no

25 name is mentioned, then of course it could be done.

Page 2392

1 MR. IERACE: I notice, Mr. President, that we've only got

2 15 minutes left anyway.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for Monday morning, you are informed.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you

7 understand? Yes.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphones please be turned on.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please put on the microphone.

10 It's on, but it doesn't function well.

11 Since this Chamber has granted protective measures to you, we will

12 call you "Witness G," and not use your name. But before we start your

13 examination or before the Prosecution starts examining you, the Rules

14 require you to make a solemn declaration, and the text of this declaration

15 will be handed out to you by the usher. Would you please make the

16 declaration which you find in front of you now.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give the opportunity -- please be seated,

20 Mr. G.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give the opportunity to the Prosecution to

23 start your examination, I'd like to inform you that today, it will be only

24 for a very short period of time because we'll adjourn already after 10 or

25 15 minutes, but we'll then continue next Monday.

Page 2393

1 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS G

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think it's usual at this stage to

6 show the witness a piece of paper.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. IERACE: I ask that occur. I ask that the witness be shown

9 Exhibit P3648.

10 JUDGE ORIE

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And does your date of birth also appear on that piece of paper?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. IERACE: Might that be marked a confidential exhibit,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's admitted into evidence as P3648.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Sir, in 1992 did you live in Sarajevo?

Page 2394

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In what municipality?

3 A. In the municipality of Vogosca.

4 Q. Did you continue to live there up to and including 1995?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was the area where you lived a rural area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you live there with your family?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In 1993, what was your occupation?

11 A. I was a farmer. I was tending my garden. But I was a butcher by

12 trade, but I did not engage in that trade.

13 Q. Did your residence consist of a house, some other buildings, and

14 some land which you farmed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I think also some trees?

17 A. Yes, there was an orchard.

18 Q. What was the approximate shape of your property? In other words,

19 was it triangular, square, rectangular, or what?

20 A. It was more or less rectangular.

21 Q. Was the property on the slope and top of a ridge?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there a road at the top of the ridge and another road on the

24 bottom boundary of your property?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2395

1 Q. Did the slope approximately face west and slightly to the north?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In the summer of 1993, did you have a vegetable garden on the

4 slope?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, we are aware that there was an armed conflict in

7 the area of Sarajevo from sometime in 1992 through until the end of 1995.

8 In what month and year did armed combat start in your area, that is, where

9 you lived, the area of where you lived?

10 A. Combat started in March and April 1992, that is, in the early

11 spring.

12 Q. When was the first time that you noticed shooting in the

13 approximate area where you lived? And by that, I mean in that district.

14 A. After the first roadblocks were set up in Sarajevo, shooting began

15 from the Serbian houses.

16 Q. All right. During that armed conflict, through until the end of

17 1995, did you ever observe your property to apparently receive fire from

18 weapons such as rifles or machine-guns or anti-aircraft guns?

19 A. Yes, right then in the spring.

20 Q. And do you mean by that the spring of 1992?

21 A. Yes, 1992.

22 Q. All right. Without going into details at this stage, did you

23 receive any more fire after that in 1992 on your property?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At any stage in the year 1992 and also the years 1993 and 1994,

Page 2396

1 was there any military equipment on your property?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were there any military weapons on your property in that same time

4 period, in those three years?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were there ever any soldiers on your property in those same three

7 years whilst on duty?

8 A. No.

9 Q. As a result of fire -- withdraw that. Did you observe any fire to

10 your property at any stage during the year 1993?

11 A. There was constant shooting during the day and during the night.

12 There was shooting all the time.

13 Q. What about in 1994?

14 A. Yes, constantly. In fact, right up to the cease-fire.

15 Q. At any stage between spring of 1992 and fall of 1994 were you ever

16 wounded as a result of fire received on your property?

17 A. I was not wounded until 1993. The house was shelled, though, on

18 the 12th of January, 1993.

19 Q. All right. Now, what month was it that you were wounded in 1993?

20 A. On the 25th of June. It was a Friday.

21 Q. Approximately what time of day were you wounded?

22 A. It may have been around 1.20 p.m., as far as I remember.

23 Q. What were the weather conditions at that time?

24 A. It was sunny. The weather was nice. I was in a pair of shorts.

25 Q. Where were you on your property immediately before you were shot?

Page 2397

1 A. I was in my yard. And I was about to pick some lettuce because it

2 was nearing lunchtime, and I wanted to get some lettuce for us. And then

3 I heard the shooting.

4 Q. What sort of clothes were you wearing? Could you describe your

5 clothing at that time.

6 A. I had on my shorts, a pair of short trousers. That's what I had.

7 I was bare to my waist.

8 Q. All right. Where were you when you first heard the sound of

9 shooting?

10 A. As soon as I started picking the lettuce, I started cutting off

11 the upper parts of the plant, because I wanted to get at the lower parts

12 which were fresher, and then I heard the shooting. That was the only

13 thing I heard. I didn't hear the bullets. And I simply -- what I did is

14 I just lay down there where the lettuce was. I stayed down for maybe two

15 or three minutes, and then I got up because I wanted to continue picking

16 the lettuce. And then I felt this tremendous blow. I turned around by

17 180 degrees and fell down on the ground.

18 Q. Were you able to determine the direction of the sound of the

19 shooting?

20 A. Yes, I was. From one location, there was only one location

21 because that was the only location where there was a line of visibility.

22 And I was, in fact, quite lucky that I had not been shot before. All

23 right.

24 Q. Now, did that location have a name?

25 A. Orahov Brijeg.

Page 2398

1 Q. You said there was only one line of visibility. I'll withdraw

2 that.

3 You've told us that you turned 180 degrees and fell to the

4 ground. What's the next thing that you remember?

5 A. As I fell down, I realised I was hit. I started shaking. I was

6 unable to move. I could only move my left arm. My legs were crossed.

7 They were together. And I managed to grab my left leg with my left arm --

8 with my left hand, and I realised it was dead. There was no feeling. And

9 I immediately realised that there was something wrong with my spine, and

10 that's when I lost consciousness.

11 Q. At a later point when you regained consciousness, where were you?

12 A. I was at the same location, but I felt that there was somebody

13 there. My eyes were closed, and I said to that person who was standing

14 near me, "Watch out, there's shooting going on". After a certain period

15 of time, I don't know how long after that it was, I felt that I was being

16 carried away by somebody, because I was in some pain, and then I heard

17 tremendous shooting.

18 Q. All right. Did you recognise the person or persons who were

19 nearby?

20 A. No. Only when I was carried out into the yard, as they were

21 waiting for the car to pick us up, I realised that my daughter, my wife,

22 my neighbour, and a relative of mine were all there. I was losing

23 consciousness from time to time. Then I would come to.

24 Q. Now, would you please, with the permission of the Trial Chamber,

25 stand up and point to the entry point of the bullet on your body. And

Page 2399

1 after that, would you point to the exit point of the bullet from your

2 body.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. G.

4 Is this -- for the facial distortion, will this not create any

5 problem?

6 Perhaps you move slowly. Mr. G, your face does not appear on the

7 television screen, so therefore, if you just wait for one second so that

8 we assure that your face, even while standing up, will not be shown on the

9 television screen. If you then please slowly stand up on your feet.

10 Yes.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. Mr. G, would you please turn around slowly so that we can see the

13 relevant parts of your body.

14 A. Do I have to take off my jacket?

15 Q. Not at all. Leave your jacket on, and if you would, please, just

16 turn slowly around. All right. And now would you indicate the entry

17 point.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 MR. IERACE: And for the benefit of the transcript, Mr. President,

20 I think the witness indicates the spinal region and about halfway down his

21 back.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. Would you now please indicate the exit point of the bullet.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 2400

1 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates rear shoulder, on the right.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. IERACE: In the vicinity of his right arm, top of his right

4 arm.

5 Thank you, Mr. G. Would you please resume your seat.

6 Is that a convenient time, Mr. President?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's a convenient time, but I would just

8 first like to explain to the witness.

9 Witness G, we have had only a short session. That is for

10 organisational reasons, and I really regret that we only could hear your

11 testimony for such a short period of time this morning. But we will

12 continue next Monday. So our apologies for just your very short

13 appearance this morning.

14 Would you please, Mr. Ierace, if you would agree that the witness

15 stays where he is when you want to hand out the letter, because otherwise

16 we have to pull down the curtains when he leaves the courtroom, and ...

17 So if you would just wait one second, Mr. G.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the letter has not arrived. Would it

19 be convenient to the Trial Chamber if I was to provide a copy of that to

20 the Senior Legal Officer --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you do this as soon as possible, then we'll

22 learn about it. Yes.

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I think then we have to -- we'll adjourn until

25 next Monday, 9.30, although it would not have been necessary for

Page 2401

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but I think it's not very practical to change the

2 scheduling again. So we'll adjourn until next Monday, 9.30 in the

3 morning.

4 Mr. Ierace?

5 MR. IERACE: Would that be Courtroom 2, Mr. President?

6 JUDGE ORIE: I just have to -- it's -- everyone confirms to me

7 that it is Courtroom 2, and otherwise we'll find each other in front of

8 Courtroom 2 and see where we have to go. So we'll adjourn until then.

9 And could then, please, the curtains be put down after the Chamber has

10 left the courtroom.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of January,

13 2002, at 9.30 a.m.

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