Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2929

1 Monday, 4 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated before, I would like to be sure, at

10 least at the beginning of each week, whether there are still any problems

11 remaining as far as providing the Defence with whatever exhibits that

12 might be used during the next week. And I see everyone is still quiet, so

13 I assume that it needs no special attention at this moment.

14 I think then we could continue to examine Witness I. Would you

15 please, Mr. Usher, bring in -- yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: It's Mrs. Salcin.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you can hear

22 me. Ms. Salcin, you were examined only for a rather brief period of time

23 last Friday. I hope you had a good weekend. And we will now, as I

24 indicated Friday --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2930

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- we will now continue.

2 Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

7 Q. Mrs. Salcin, when we broke on Friday, you had described for the

8 Trial Chamber the incident on 13 June in which you were shot. Could you

9 please describe for the Trial Chamber where the bullet struck you.

10 A. The bullet struck me in my right hand. My right hand, that was

11 where the bullet hit me, through the palm. It entered through the palm

12 and exited the other side.

13 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what you and Dzemal

14 did after you were struck by the bullet, please.

15 A. Could you repeat that, please.

16 Q. After you were struck by the bullet, can you please describe for

17 the Trial Chamber what Dzemal and you did.

18 A. I didn't feel that I had been hit straight away, not until there

19 was a burst of gunfire, and then we all threw ourselves down on to the

20 ground in the garden. We laid down. And when the shooting stopped, we

21 got up. And it was only then that I realised that I had actually been

22 wounded. And I looked at my skirt. It was all covered in blood. And

23 then I saw my hand. It seemed to be all black. I couldn't remember

24 anything much. But I just said to Dzemal, "I'm wounded," and Dzemal took

25 me by the -- took hold of my hand like this and we went off.

Page 2931

1 Q. Where did you go?

2 A. We went to a supermarket to look for a car to take me to

3 hospital.

4 Q. Were you successful in finding a car to take you to the hospital?

5 A. Yes. A man said, "I'll take you," and that's what he did. He

6 took us to Dobrinja to the hospital there.

7 Q. Were you admitted into the hospital on that day?

8 A. Yes. I was admitted by Dr. Mahmic, and straight away, he started

9 to treat my wound.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you remained in the hospital?

11 A. Do you mean the whole period?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I stayed in hospital -- well, it was a long time ago, but about 15

14 or 16 days.

15 Q. When you were discharged from the hospital, did the staff at the

16 hospital give you any documents?

17 A. Yes. They gave me my diagnosis on the discharge sheet or whatever

18 it's called.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

20 the document marked P3369.

21 Q. Mrs. Salcin, I'd like you to look at the document that's been

22 placed before you and tell the Trial Chamber whether or not you have seen

23 this document before.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what this document is?

Page 2932

1 A. That is the diagnosis of my wounded hand. It contains my name and

2 surname, my father's name, my date of birth.

3 Q. Mrs. Salcin, does this document indicate the date that you were

4 admitted into the hospital?

5 A. Yes, the 13th of June, 1994.

6 Q. Mrs. Salcin, I'd like to draw your attention now back to the day

7 on which you were shot. Do you recall what you were wearing on that

8 occasion?

9 A. I was wearing a leather jacket. I had a leather jacket on, and I

10 had a blue skirt and black shoes.

11 Q. Do you recall what Dzemal was wearing on that day?

12 A. No, I really can't remember.

13 Q. Do you know if he was wearing a military uniform on that

14 occasion?

15 A. No, he wasn't. I know that for sure.

16 Q. Were you carrying any type of military weapon on that occasion?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was Dzemal wearing any kind of military -- or carrying any kind of

19 military weapon on that occasion?

20 A. I didn't see any. No, quite sure he wasn't.

21 Q. Do you recall whether, in the immediate vicinity in which you were

22 when you were shot, there were any soldiers or other people in uniforms?

23 A. No, there weren't. As far as I was able to see, no, there weren't

24 any.

25 Q. Do you recall if in the immediate vicinity at the time and place

Page 2933

1 where you were shot, there was any type of military equipment or large

2 weapons of any kind?

3 A. I didn't notice any, no.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask at this time that the

5 witness be shown the video which is Exhibit 3280F.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 [Videotape played]

8 "INVESTIGATOR: Please stand where you were standing to the best

9 of your recollection when you were shot.

10 I will now use yellow paint to put an "X" on the spot where

11 Mrs. Salcin has indicated.

12 Mrs. Salcin, will you please assume the position you were in, to

13 the best of your recollection, at the time you were shot.

14 Please point in the general direction" --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

16 MR. MUNDIS: We seem to be having some technical problems with

17 that videotape, Mr. President.


19 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any idea on how much time it would take

21 -- we will wait for a few moments.

22 Mrs. Salcin, we just have to wait for a second until the video is

23 ready again.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I understand, the tape is damaged, which

Page 2934

1 cannot be repaired right away. I think you have two options. First

2 option is to continue even with a tape which is not perfect but the sound

3 at least allows us to hear it. This is part of a longer videotape, as far

4 as I understand, and we could play perhaps the original one. Or we

5 continue and see whether the tape could be repaired.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it's my understanding that Madam

7 Registrar has an additional copy of this videotape. Perhaps we could --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we perhaps could use that, then. Madam

9 Registrar, has it been marked personally by you, since now the --


11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we in one way or the other identify it so that

12 the tape that comes back is exactly the same as the tape that left the

13 courtroom.

14 Thank you very much.

15 We'll just wait and see whether the authentic original has got the

16 same damage which it should have as the copy.

17 [Videotape played]

18 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Please stand where you were standing, to the

19 best of your recollection, when you were shot.

20 I will now use yellow paint to place an "X" upon the spot that

21 Mrs. Salcin has indicated.

22 Mrs. Salcin, will you please assume the position you were in, to

23 the best of your recollection, at the time you were shot.

24 Please point in the general direction from which you heard gunfire

25 at the time you were shot, to the best of your recollection.

Page 2935

1 Please point in the general direction that you ran after you were

2 shot."


4 Q. Mrs. Salcin, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you comply with the instructions of the investigator

7 completely and truthfully, to the best of your ability?

8 A. To the best of my ability, yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

11 P3259, which consists of two photographs.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you give the photos to the witness.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I ask that the second of those photos,

15 that is the one with the number 0211-4245, be placed on the ELMO first,

16 please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you put the second photo.

18 Yes, that's the correct one.


20 Q. Mrs. Salcin, please take a look at that photograph. Do you see

21 yourself in that photograph?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Who is the other individual in the photograph next to you?

24 A. Dzemal.

25 Q. Does that photograph accurately depict the location where you were

Page 2936

1 standing when you were shot?

2 A. Well, as it was a long time ago, I can't really remember. But I

3 think it is. I think it does.

4 Q. Does this photograph depict the street on which you were walking

5 when you were shot?

6 A. From there, yes, and I can see from Dobrinja as we were walking

7 towards the Olympic place.

8 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you recall the name of that street upon which you

9 and your brother-in-law were walking on that day?

10 A. I said it was Olimpijska. Now, whether they changed the name or

11 not, I don't really know.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. Usher, if you could please place the other

13 photograph on the ELMO, that would be the one marked 0211-4239.

14 Q. Mrs. Salcin, can you see the photograph that has been placed in

15 front of you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does this appear to be a close-up photograph of the prior

18 photograph that you were looking at?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you see the houses located in the background of that

21 photograph?

22 A. Yes, I see them.

23 Q. Do you know what that area of Sarajevo is called?

24 A. Nedzarici.

25 Q. In the videotape, Mrs. Salcin, you indicated that the gunshot came

Page 2937

1 from behind you. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Looking at the photograph that's now in front of you, would the

4 cluster of houses and buildings in the background represent the general

5 direction from which the gunshot came?

6 A. As far as I am able to remember, and as far as I know, it came

7 from --

8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter did not catch the

9 witness's answer.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer again? The interpreter could

11 not hear you. Perhaps you can come a bit closer to the microphone.

12 Mr. Usher, could you please assist?

13 I think that's better. Could you please -- perhaps you could

14 please put the last question again, Mr. Mundis, so that the witness can

15 answer.


17 Q. Mrs. Salcin, looking at the photograph that's now in front of you,

18 would the cluster of houses and buildings in the background represent the

19 general direction from which the gunshot came?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mrs. Salcin, are you able to read maps?

22 A. No, I really can't. I couldn't do that in Sarajevo either. I

23 don't find my way around a map easily.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness now be

Page 2938

1 shown the 360 degree panoramic photo which is 3279E.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The computer evidence.


4 Q. Mrs. Salcin, I'd like you to look at the screen in front of you.

5 Do you recognise what's on the computer screen as being the street that

6 you were on at the time you were shot?

7 A. I can't see the pillar that was there.

8 MR. MUNDIS: If the photograph could please be panned slowly to

9 the left, please? Stop.

10 Q. Does that refresh your memory, Mrs. Salcin?

11 A. Yes. How can I describe this to you? From -- taking it from this

12 pillar, we went downhill to the pink building down there, and that's where

13 we fell. We fell here, when we heard the shooting, the shot. And when it

14 was over, we went on again.

15 Q. When you mean "on again," towards which building or direction did

16 you go?

17 A. Towards the buildings, the buildings on the right-hand side. That

18 was where there was a supermarket and that's -- that was where we got the

19 car that took us to the hospital. So we went across the parking lot.

20 That's all I can remember. It was a long time ago, you know.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Could the photograph be panned to the left, please?

23 Please stop.

24 Q. Mrs. Salcin, is this the direction from which you came on the day

25 that you were shot?

Page 2939












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Page 2940

1 A. What was just shown, not this. I can't quite remember which part

2 is Dobrinja and which part is Nedzarici.

3 Q. At the time that you were shot, Mrs. Salcin, were you walking up

4 the hill that's depicted on the photograph in front of you?

5 A. Yes, yes. This hill facing me, yes.

6 Q. So at the location where the camera is located, you were walking

7 towards the camera; would that be correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS: One moment, please, Mr. President. I'm going to ask

10 the technician to continue panning the photograph to the left, please.

11 That's fine. Thank you. Mr. President, we have no further questions for

12 the witness at this time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, I see you're nodding, so I expect the Defence to be

15 prepared for cross-examination.

16 Mrs. Salcin, now the Defence counsel will put some questions to

17 you.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wishes

20 good morning to the witness.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Mrs. Salcin, could you tell us how long have you been living in

23 Sarajevo?

24 A. About 30 years.

25 Q. Could you tell us in which part of Sarajevo you lived?

Page 2941

1 A. You mean from when I arrived in Sarajevo?

2 Q. So if I understand, you've been living in that part of town for 30

3 years?

4 A. Yes, about that time. I'm not quite sure. About. About 30

5 years. I was a tenant, renting.

6 Q. Could you tell us if you know the area where you live very well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us what that area of city is called and which

9 street you live in?

10 A. Alipasino Polje.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis?

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps it's a translation error but

13 in lines 16 through 20 of the English transcript there is a bit of

14 confusion based on the question, "How long have you been living in

15 Sarajevo," and which part of Sarajevo.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your need for clarification,

17 such that -- of course, I couldn't follow the original language but you

18 asked -- the witness asked whether the question was about the place where

19 she lived when she took up residence in Sarajevo, and then it continues,

20 Ms. Pilipovic: "So if I do understand, I think you've been living in that

21 area for 30 years." There is some confusion among those who follow the

22 English language. Could you please verify that again, whether there was

23 any change in residence during this period of approximately 30 years?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2942

1 Q. Mrs. Salcin, in this area of town that you said was called

2 Alipasino Polje, is that where you've been living for 30 years or did you

3 live elsewhere before?

4 A. No. I lived in other areas, in Buljakov Potok, in Sokolje.

5 Q. Could you tell us how long have you been living in Alipasino

6 Polje?

7 A. Only if I could. I really cannot recall. I don't want to make a

8 mistake. Possibly about 20 years.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. I don't know any more. It was a long time ago.

11 Q. On that day when you were wounded, as you told us yourself, could

12 you tell us on -- at what time of the day was it that you set off to make

13 a visit?

14 A. To the visit? I really cannot tell you. I don't know when that

15 was.

16 Q. Did you go to make that visit on that day?

17 A. You mean when I was wounded?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes. Yes, that's when it was. It was on the 13th of June, 1994.

20 Q. Could you tell us which route you took to make that visit? From

21 your house, which streets did you take?

22 A. From my house, I cannot remember. I can only remember on the way

23 back. I really don't know where I went to get to Dobrinja.

24 Q. Did you go to make that visit to Dobrinja by yourself?

25 A. Yes, I went by myself. And on the way back, I was going with

Page 2943

1 Dzemal.

2 Q. Could you tell us in Dobrinja in which area -- in which part of

3 Dobrinja were you for that visit, in which street?

4 A. I don't know the street. It's just right at the very beginning.

5 I don't know the street really.

6 Q. On that day when you went to Dobrinja for that visit, what kind of

7 day was it? What weather was it like?

8 A. I went to Dobrinja, and I believe that it was about 9.00 in the

9 morning. And I think it was about 6.00, perhaps - I'm not quite sure - as

10 we went back. I'm not sure about the time. Perhaps Dzemal can remember

11 better than I can.

12 Q. Could you tell us whether on that day there were any armed

13 operations at the time when you were going to that visit?

14 A. No. No, I did not hear anything.

15 Q. And when you were returning from your visit, before you heard the

16 shot, did you hear any other shooting?

17 A. I did not hear any shooting, but only the moment when I was

18 already wounded.

19 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you remember about the time from a few years

20 ago -- from 1995 to 2001, do you remember giving statements to the

21 investigators of the Tribunal?

22 A. I went to give statements, but I really cannot remember. It was a

23 long time ago.

24 Q. If I tell you that you gave a statement on the 8th of November,

25 1995, to the investigators of the Tribunal, could you confirm that for me?

Page 2944

1 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

2 Q. If I tell you that you gave a statement to the investigators of

3 the Tribunal on the 5th of September, 2001 -- that is, 2000, that was last

4 year - the year before - do you remember that?

5 A. I went there when they called me, but I couldn't really do it. I

6 couldn't remember, and I couldn't really bring myself to think about it.

7 Q. If I tell you that you gave a statement to the investigators of

8 the Tribunal on the 12th of September, 2001, that is, last year in

9 September, do you remember that?

10 A. I know that perhaps may sound silly, but I don't remember the

11 order of them and when exactly I did.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you'll allow us,

13 the Defence would like to show the witness the statement to the witness on

14 the 12th of September, 2001, signed by Mrs. Salcin. And the Defence would

15 like the witness to identify her signature on this statement, considering

16 the Defence intends to ask the witness something about a portion of her

17 statement. The statement is dated 12th of September, 2001.


19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The number of the document, in

20 English it's 0211-4239. And the second page is 0211-4240.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's just about to verify whether the witness

22 recognises it. I don't think it has to be put on the ELMO, just whether

23 it's her signature or not.

24 Ms. Salcin, do you recognise your signature on these?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2945

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please -- Ms. Pilipovic, I

2 expect you to read some lines of it, and...

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And may I invite the parties to find a procedure

5 where until now it's rather a formality on whether -- since I do

6 understand that both the Prosecution and the Defence take the position,

7 especially when the witness is confronted with earlier statements, that

8 this is the statement, these are the signatures. Perhaps we could try to

9 find a line of questioning which saves much time. I think the question,

10 "Do you remember one or two statements and whether you have signed it"

11 would be, I think, good enough a basis for cross-examining --

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- additional problem whether there's any dispute

14 about dates or whether the signature is really the signature of the

15 witness. Perhaps you could speed it up for future witnesses.

16 Now, we know, Ms. Salcin, that was not about you specifically. I

17 was just talking to the parties on a very technical issue. You just have

18 seen that you signed the statement, and Ms. Pilipovic will put some

19 further questions to you in relation to that statement.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mrs. Salcin, at the question asked by my learned colleague at

22 9.36, that after you felt that you were wounded, that you had -- that you

23 had -- went to lie on a part of a vegetable patch.

24 A. Could you repeat that?

25 Q. You said, "I did not feel that I was wounded until there was a

Page 2946

1 machine-gun burst and we went to lay down in a vegetable patch."

2 A. Yes. First what I felt was that my hand sort of went up in the

3 air, and I thought it was a -- that I had had a nerve cramping or

4 something. And then there was a shot, and that's when we had to lie down

5 until the shooting stopped, because I presume it was that machine-gun

6 burst. And so we lay down, and then the shooting stopped. And then we

7 rushed to the building, as I said, where this supermarket was.

8 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Salcin, I will ask you about a portion of a

9 statement that you gave on the 12th of September, 2001. And this is

10 paragraph 4 from the statement. And it starts with "last year." I will

11 read line 3:

12 "We heard a shot after which -- and then more shots, possibly a

13 burst. From our location in the road, we ran into a trench."

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Mrs. Salcin, could you reply whether you went to take shelter into

16 a vegetable patch or a trench?

17 A. As far as I can recall, it was a garden.

18 Q. Could you tell us, on the 12th of September, 2001, whether you

19 said you went to run into a trench? Does that mean that on that occasion

20 you were not telling the truth?

21 A. I don't know. I really cannot remember.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The possibilities outlined

25 by my learned colleague exclude the possibility that it was a trench in a

Page 2947

1 vegetable garden. We would ask that that be clarified.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please verify this, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, could you tell us whether in that vegetable garden --

5 were there any trenches in that garden?

6 A. I really did not see that, but where I lay down, it was -- it was

7 a garden, where there -- there were potatoes where we lay down, and as for

8 the trenches, I really don't know.

9 Q. Could you tell us why, on the 12th of September, 2001, you said

10 that you had run to a trench which was empty? You said you had run to an

11 empty trench. Did you -- did you then -- what you actually said in the

12 statement, does that mean it's not true, what you said?

13 A. Well, as what I can remember, I really don't know. I cannot

14 remember any more.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

16 like to have the photograph shown to the witness, and the number is

17 02114244.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please? That's the photograph

19 of the two larger heads.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mrs. Salcin, can you see that photograph where you and your

22 relative are standing? Could you tell us if this intersection and this

23 part that can be seen behind you, is that what it looked like on that 13th

24 of June in 1994, as far as you can remember?

25 A. Well, I can't remember everything.

Page 2948

1 Q. Could you tell us whether, on this part of the road, there were

2 any roadblocks on these streets, a protection?

3 A. No, I did not see -- I did not see them.

4 Q. How often did you walk down this road?

5 A. I went -- I walked there on that day, and I didn't go after that.

6 Q. Could you tell us whether this part of neighbourhood that you told

7 us was Nedzarici, whether, in 1994, whether it looked the way it looks on

8 the photograph?

9 A. Well, I can't remember.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

11 like to ask her about a portion of the statement that she gave on the 12th

12 of September, 2001, on the same page, and this is paragraph 6, and it is

13 line 7. "As I am positioned in the photographs, the houses shown behind

14 us are not in the same condition they were in on the day I was shot. Many

15 of the houses and buildings have been rebuilt. There are many new roofs

16 in the photos, which were not there on the day I was shot."

17 Q. Did you say this in the statement?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The sentence that my learned

21 colleague read out didn't end where she stopped reading, and we would ask

22 that the full sentence be put to the witness, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Ms. Pilipovic?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. "I cannot say

25 exactly which houses, however, have been changed. The main street shown

Page 2949

1 behind in the photographs, running left-right, had some container

2 barricades, but I cannot remember where they started and ended, how many

3 there were, and what areas were protected by the barricades."

4 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps I wasn't clear before with my objection.

5 What Ms. Pilipovic has just done is read the remainder of that paragraph.

6 However, the sentence which she first put to the witness has a phrase

7 which my learned colleague, unintentionally I'm sure, but omitted to read

8 to the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please assist her in finding the --

10 MR. MUNDIS: The sentence which in English begins, "Many of the

11 houses and buildings have been rebuilt."


13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] "Many of the houses and buildings

14 have been rebuilt. There are many new roofs in the photos, which were not

15 there on the day I was shot."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the part you're aiming at?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps it's an error in the translation of the

18 witness statement but in the English version there is another phrase which

19 continues from that point.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then, please, perhaps with the assistance

21 of the interpreters, see whether this is a translation problem or not, at

22 that very moment.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, would you -- I see Mr. Piletta-Zanin will be of

24 great assistance, since he can at least read both of the languages.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could I ask Mr. Mundis which

Page 2950












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2951

1 was the sentence which appears in the English text so that we can have a

2 look?

3 MR. MUNDIS: In the English, the full sentence reads, "Many of the

4 houses and buildings have rebuilt. There are many new roofs in the

5 photos, which were not there on the day I was shot, and many of the houses

6 and buildings have an extra storey, which was not there."

7 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand it, it's about the extra storey?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The two texts do

11 not appear absolutely one and the same, so perhaps I could ask the

12 interpreters to check.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it depends. If Ms. Pilipovic intends to

14 question about storeys, it's highly relevant. If, on the other hand, she

15 intentions to question about roofs, then it might, at least at this

16 moment, not be that relevant. At least it has now been -- it seems it has

17 been established --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, the

19 Defence will submit the copy in English as well to the interpreters, if

20 this is needed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think so, so the fact that the Defence

22 has established that there is a small portion which does not appear in the

23 B/C/S version and does appear in the English version, if I'm correct,

24 because I do understand that the Prosecution reads the English version.

25 So there is a -- some extra in the English version which is not in the

Page 2952

1 B/C/S version. Well, now, the question is whether this is relevant -- of

2 course, it's always relevant that translations are correct -- but it's

3 relevant for the questioning, for the cross-examination of the witness at

4 this moment, if you'd say, Ms. Pilipovic, "I would like to pay attention

5 to that aspect as well," or, "I would like to, if I would have known" --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to ask the

7 witness whether she speaks English.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, then the Defence

10 will only be using the B/C/S translation because it is the language which

11 the witness understands.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you that that's the version she

13 signed and if there would be any reason for you later on to pay proper

14 attention to the -- to pay attention to the extra, which is in the English

15 version, of course, you will have the opportunity to do so, only being

16 adverted to it -- now, Mr. Mundis?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the witness actually signs the English

18 language version of the statements, notwithstanding the fact that the

19 witness doesn't read that language. That's the policies that are employed

20 by the Office of the Prosecutor with respect to taking witness statements.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I thank you to have informed the Chamber about

22 this, but then, of course, the question remains how it was read to her. I

23 assume that it was in her original language and I do not know whether you

24 can inform us on whether at that moment, the prepared, written translation

25 is used to read the statements to the -- the statement to the witness or

Page 2953

1 that an interpreter is translating at that very moment from the B/C/S

2 version into the --

3 MR. MUNDIS: The standard procedure, Mr. President, would be the

4 latter of the two options that you just presented.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would mean that I do not understand,

6 then, how, from the B/C/S version, you get something extra in the English

7 version. So it's quite incomprehensible to me, if you start -- if you

8 start with the B/C/S version and then translate it into English.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps I wasn't clear, Mr. President. The

10 statements are actually taken by an English-speaking investigator. The

11 statement is then, with the use of a field interpreter, read back to the

12 witness in B/C/S.


14 MR. MUNDIS: The witness then signs the statement. The statement

15 is then brought back here to the Hague where it is then submitted for

16 translation into written B/C/S.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we will never know exactly what the

18 translation will have been in B/C/S at this spot.

19 MR. MUNDIS: The official translator will not know the oral B/C/S

20 as spoken to the witness. They have to rely upon the written English

21 version which the witness has signed.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So it may have been possible that even this extra

23 part has been read to the witness already on the spot, and then it has

24 been forgotten to be translated later on when the statement arrived in the

25 Hague.

Page 2954

1 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, because the oral interpretation is done by a

2 different person than the person who does the written translation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, I would say again our keyword will

4 remain "precision."

5 Ms. Pilipovic, you are now aware of some extra in the English

6 version of the statement. You may continue to cross-examine the witness;

7 and if there's any need to consider whether you want to question the

8 witness also on the extra part, of course you'll get your opportunity to

9 do so. Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mrs. Salcin, did you understand what I read out to you from your

12 statement of the 12th September, 2001?

13 A. I can't -- I don't really remember. Believe me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps it's good to read it again and

15 perhaps -- unless you feel any need for it, just to leave out the stories

16 at that moment. But you also may include it if you think it's relevant.

17 Please read it again to the witness.

18 Ms. Salcin, this may be a bit confusing for you, but there seems

19 to be a small difference in the language -- the original language that you

20 may have used and the English translation. We have been speaking about

21 that for a couple of minutes, but you may just forget about it.

22 Ms. Pilipovic will again read to you part of your statement as you signed

23 it in September 2001, and then she'll put questions to you on that. It's

24 no reason to be nervous about it. We'll settle the problem. You just

25 answer the questions.

Page 2955

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mrs. Salcin, I will read to you just one word. "Houses behind me

3 are not exactly in the same shape as on the day that I was shot." Did you

4 say this?

5 Can you tell us from what you remember about that time in what

6 shape, in what state, were the houses that we see here behind you? Can

7 you explain that to us.

8 A. They were in ruins. But this was done -- the rebuilding had begun

9 and roofs are there.

10 Q. Can you tell us if you know anything about how these houses were

11 destroyed, the houses that you tell us were in ruins?

12 A. Well, during the war, there was destruction, and I can't really

13 remember the time. But once the war was over, people started rebuilding

14 their houses.

15 Q. When you told us that it was destroyed during the war, what part

16 of the war? What period of time during the war do you have in mind when

17 you say that?

18 A. Well, that day when I went to Dobrinja, I saw this -- that the

19 houses were destroyed.

20 Q. Do you know who used to live there?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. And before, you said that the houses were destroyed during the

23 war. But before the war, did you used to visit this -- that

24 neighbourhood?

25 A. No.

Page 2956

1 Q. Can you tell us what it is called?

2 A. Oh, well, we called it Nedzarici. Whether this is...

3 Q. During the 20 years that you spent in that area, in Alipasino

4 Polje, you never visited this particular area, Nedzarici, did you?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. During the war - and I will remind you, it is 1992, 1993, 1994 -

7 are you aware that in this part of the city that you live in, that is,

8 Alipasino Polje and Nedzarici, was there any fighting there during the

9 war?

10 A. At Alipasino Polje, well, there was gunfire, naturally. But

11 believe me, I didn't really pay much attention because I was concerned

12 chiefly about my children.

13 Q. On this photograph, can you show us where the monastery is on this

14 photograph? Do you know where it is? That is, it is a place that you

15 tell us the shot that wounded you came from. If you don't know, just tell

16 us you don't know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. I'm unaware of this

19 witness indicating that the shot came from the monastery. She has

20 testified that the shot came from behind her. But --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I will

23 find the place in the transcript during the break, the place where the

24 witness said that the shot came from a monastery. But I will now move on

25 to something else.

Page 2957

1 JUDGE ORIE: We are pleased to get this information from you,

2 Ms. Pilipovic.

3 It is the recollection -- but we'll be glad to be corrected if we

4 are wrong. It is the recollection of all three Judges that the witness

5 has not been speaking about a monastery before. But of course, we can

6 make mistakes as well. So please assist us. If you can find it during

7 the break, that's fine.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mrs. Salcin, you told us that your relative came back from

10 Dobrinja with you that day. Can you tell us how are you related to the

11 gentleman that was with you that day?

12 A. Well, I don't know how to explain that. I'd rather not -- well,

13 let him say that. I'm not really much good at these relationships.

14 Q. If I tell you that he's your brother-in-law, would that mean that

15 he's your husband's brother?

16 A. Husband's brother. Once again, I can't say. I called him out of

17 deference my brother-in-law. But now what kind of relationship that is, I

18 can't say. He can explain it better.

19 Q. How long have you known Mr. Dzemal?

20 A. A long time.

21 Q. Can you tell us where he worked?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know if he was a member of the BH army?

24 A. I don't know. As regards his work, I know nothing about that. I

25 didn't pay any attention.

Page 2958

1 Q. You said that you mostly concentrated and were concerned about

2 your family, your children. Did your children live with you?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Objection on two grounds, Your Honour: at what point

5 in time did her children live with her, and also just in general the

6 relevance of this question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will ask if in

9 1993, in June, did your children live with you. And then I will explain

10 why this is relevant.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, usually if there is any objection about the

12 relevancy, you should explain before. But on the other hand, it's a short

13 question. Even if it turned out to be not very relevant, I don't see any

14 problem in the question being answered.

15 So the question to you was whether in June 1993 your children were

16 living with you, Mrs. Salcin.

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I heard that the witness said

19 yes.

20 Q. Did your children go to school?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer or

22 speak up.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. How old were your children at that time in 1993?

25 A. Believe me, I don't know anything any more.

Page 2959

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Salcin, you don't have to be nervous. We'll

2 sort it out. We'll help you to give the proper answers. But perhaps

3 first, Ms. Pilipovic, you are referring to June 1993, whereas the --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think you intended to ask about 1994, since that's

6 the date of the --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. Yes, yes,

8 of course. Yes, thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me to see, just to ask Mrs. Salcin?

10 Mrs. Salcin, Ms. Pilipovic was asking you about the time when this

11 incident happened. Do you remember whether at that period of time your

12 children were living with you?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please. We cannot

14 hear her at all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please perhaps assist the

16 witness -- could you please come a bit closer to the microphone because

17 the interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.

18 Could you please put the microphone as close to the -- it's not

19 possible to... Okay.

20 Could you try to speak a bit louder as well, so that's easier for

21 all of us to understand you. So in June 1994, your children were

22 living -- how many children do you have?

23 A. I had three, and I still do.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So after the incident, you went to hospital.

25 Do you remember how old your children were at that time approximately?

Page 2960

1 Did they come and see you in hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember still the age approximately when they

4 were at your bedside?

5 A. May I -- I can say -- I can tell you the years they were born.

6 That is all. My daughter was born in 1971.


8 A. You have noted down about my daughter?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 1971.

10 A. My older son, my son, 1975.


12 A. I think so. And my other son, 1978.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's the youngest son?

14 A. That's right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we will know approximately their ages at the

16 time when it happened. In 1994, your daughter must have been

17 approximately 23 years old; your eldest son, 19 years old; and your

18 younger son, 16 years old. Is that what you have in mind?

19 A. Well --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did they go to school until what age? First, your

21 daughter. Was she still at school when she was 23, or did she do

22 something else?

23 A. No, no, no. She didn't go to a school. She had come out,

24 completed the secondary education, and that was it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your son, your elder son, when did he leave

Page 2961












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2962

1 school, at what age?

2 A. He completed two years, and the third one he didn't, because the

3 war had started in the meantime.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd say once the war started, he

5 interrupted his school; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Nobody went to school.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your younger son, was that the same?

8 A. Oh, he did go to school.

9 JUDGE ORIE: During the whole war?

10 A. Well, I can't remember exactly at what time. Yes. I think so.

11 JUDGE ORIE: He continued going to school when the war was still

12 going on?

13 A. Well, when he could go, when the conditions were right, he went,

14 and so it was like that, but he completed his schooling during the war.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Completed. Do you remember whether this was in the

16 beginning of the war, at the end of the war?

17 A. I mean, I really -- I can't even remember any more.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, just tell us. I just wondered

19 whether he left school already when you were in hospital or not, your

20 youngest son. You don't remember?

21 A. I don't. I don't remember, really can't.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, merely for the

25 transcript, merely for the transcript, on page 28, we see in the

Page 2963

1 transcript, in the English transcript, it says 43:13, that the answer that

2 the witness gave was not recorded, and I believe that what is in the

3 French transcript, that the witness answered "yes" to that question, and

4 it was -- and that is the only thing. Otherwise, the witness can

5 continue.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have not yet found the page 28. Could you please

7 tell us what question it was that the witness answered "yes" to in the

8 French?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was very precisely -- the

10 question was whether the children went to school, as you have just now

11 explained, and the first question [as interpreted] was very clearly

12 "yes."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mrs. Salcin, if I understood you well in that 1994, your children

16 went to school, or is it only your younger son that was still in school,

17 and your daughter and your older son were not in school?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Can you tell us during the war, that is 1992, 1993 and 1994, what

20 did your older son and daughter do? Were they employed anywhere?

21 A. No. They were not employed. They were -- my daughter was -- was

22 in the army, distributing food to the troops.

23 Q. And what about your son?

24 A. And the son was in the army.

25 Q. So I gather that your daughter and your older son were in the army

Page 2964

1 in 1992, 1993, 1994; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what army?

4 A. Well, the BH, naturally.

5 Q. Can you tell us if your daughter and son, and I mean 1992, 1993,

6 1994, while they were in the BH army, did they wear uniforms?

7 A. My daughter didn't, and not even my son, because there was a

8 shortage of uniforms. He was chiefly in his own clothes.

9 Q. Did he have any weapons?

10 A. He did not bring any when he came home. I don't know if he had

11 any, because he was quite young.

12 Q. Do you know where did your son spend his nights during that time

13 that he served in the army, in 1992, 1993, 1994? Where did he sleep?

14 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the witness's answer.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know what unit he belonged to? When I say "unit," I mean

17 military formation. Where they billeted or where did he have to report?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the interpreters have indicated to us

20 that they could not hear an answer given by the witness. The question was

21 put to you, Mrs. Salcin, on where your son spent his night during the time

22 when he served in the army, where did he sleep, and we could not hear your

23 answer. Could you please repeat your answer?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know either. I'm rather --

25 can't remember.

Page 2965

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question is whether he usually came home

2 to sleep or that he did not sleep in your home. I think that's especially

3 what Ms. Pilipovic --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at times he came home, and at

5 times he didn't.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Just one question before the break: How often did your son come

9 home? When I say "often," I mean a week, how often a week, a month.

10 Would he come on a weekly basis or a monthly basis?

11 A. On a weekly basis.

12 Q. And how often would he come home a week?

13 A. I can't even remember any longer, believe me.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I believe

15 this is now a convenient time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, how long would you still use

17 because our rule is that cross-examination should not take more time.

18 Cross-examination, even if I would deduct, well, let's say, eight to ten

19 minutes, then you have taken already more time than the

20 examination-in-chief took. Last Friday, it was approximately a quarter of

21 an hour, the examination-in-chief, where we started a few minutes after

22 9.30, stopped at 10.05, so you've taken now approximately one hour.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best to

24 reduce my cross-examination to a couple of questions -- with your leave,

25 of course. We lost a lot of time for technical reasons during my

Page 2966

1 cross-examination.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We lost time in the examination-in-chief as

3 well on technical problems. Could we just see would you be able to choose

4 the most relevant questions and, well, let's see, do it in five minutes?

5 Or would that be -- okay. Then we'll --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 11.30.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, are you ready to proceed?

11 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Two issues, very, very

13 briefly. First, for the record, Mr. Ierace, with the leave of the Trial

14 Chamber, has temporarily excused himself.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's accepted.

16 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps more importantly, during the recess,

17 Mr. President, one of the interpreters approached me and indicated that it

18 is extremely likely that the witness did, in fact, use the term

19 "monastery"; however, there was some uncertainty in the translation booth

20 both because of the general inaudibility of the witness, and they simply

21 weren't quite sure whether that term was actually used. So I simply

22 wanted to put in the record that it is possible that the Defence counsel

23 did, in fact, hear the witness say that, but that word was not, in fact,

24 reflected in the transcript.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And that would mean that you withdraw your objection,

Page 2967

1 but perhaps suggest that the question be phrased a bit more open than it

2 was.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely. Or perhaps that it simply be clarified

4 by asking the witness.

5 Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I'm only too glad now that I

7 gave you the opportunity to clarify the issue. And of course, since the

8 objection has been withdrawn, then of course the decision that I sustained

9 the objection, of course, doesn't exist any more. So you may proceed on

10 that issue.

11 But as it was suggested, and I give the same suggestion to you,

12 that perhaps you try to find out a bit more about the earlier mentioning

13 of the monastery. And I can imagine that since you will be following the

14 original language, that there might have been this misunderstanding.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you wanted to add or to make any other

16 observation?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Before Ms. Pilipovic

18 takes the floor, I would sincerely like to thank the Prosecution for this

19 type of intervention, which I think is perfectly along the lines of what

20 one should do. And I hope that the Defence counsel will follow that line

21 and course as well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You appreciate that the other party is behaving in

23 Court as you intend to do yourself. That's a great development.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should

Page 2968

1 like the witness to be shown photograph 0211-4244, please.

2 Q. Mrs. Salcin, could you tell us, looking at the photograph, from

3 what direction the shot came?

4 A. As far as I know, from behind my back.

5 Q. Could you tell us, looking at the photograph again, as you have

6 just said that it came from the monastery, where on the photograph was the

7 monastery located? Could you tell us in what section of this photograph?

8 Could you point the monastery out to us?

9 A. Well, I don't know how to do that. I can't see very well either.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please help the witness to --

11 well, if you just see whether she could with the pointer, perhaps on the

12 ELMO.

13 Ms. Salcin, would you please look at your right-hand side where --

14 would you please look at the usher. No, if you would please look at the

15 side. Please, first look to me. Yes. Would you please look to the

16 right-hand side on that machine, and Mr. Usher will help you.

17 You see there is that picture also and now you can indicate with

18 this pointer where the monastery would be.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, for the record, the witness is indicating a

21 white square building of which only the top can be seen. It is situated

22 near to the right post, at approximately a quarter from the right of the

23 picture, the white building just showing up a bit between the red roofs,

24 to the left a higher tree. I think that's enough indication of where she

25 pointed at.

Page 2969

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps marking is better than me

3 wasting a lot of time.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness could perhaps be asked

5 to draw a circle.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please give her a black marker?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mrs. Salcin, could you draw a circle around the spot, please?

9 A. [Marks]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think she made a very small circle in the

11 middle of that building she indicated before. Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mrs. Salcin, in June, 1994, do you happen to remember whether,

14 behind your back on this photograph, you see a large intersection, and do

15 you know what it is?

16 A. Please believe me when I say I don't know.

17 Q. Do you remember any barricades being there in that month of June,

18 1994?

19 A. Well, I know that there was some kind of trench.

20 Q. This trench, which line did it follow on the photograph? Do you

21 remember?

22 A. I can't remember now. It was a long time ago.

23 Q. Can you indicate the spot where that was on the photograph,

24 please? Those trenches, as you said. Can you show us where it was,

25 roughly, on the photograph? Could you mark it in with a pen?

Page 2970

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Salcin, would you again look to the right where

2 the usher is standing next to the other photo on this machine? Yes, could

3 you -- yes, please. If, with the black marker, you could indicate where

4 the trenches were.

5 But perhaps the ELMO zoom out a bit so we have a better view on --

6 yes, and then, Mr. Usher, could you please -- yes, thank you.

7 If you do not know, just tell us, and if you could indicate by

8 marking where these trenches were, please mark them.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find my way here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that means that the witness seems not to be

11 able to mark these trenches.

12 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you know -- the spot that you said you were hit,

15 do you know what street that was, what the name of the street was?

16 A. We called it Nedzarici, now what -- Bosna Srebrena.

17 Q. Thank you. I have two more questions for you. The incident that

18 took place on the 13th of June, 1994, did you report it to the competent

19 authorities? And when I say "the competent authorities," I mean did you

20 report it to the police, or anybody from the army? Did you tell anybody

21 what had happened to you?

22 A. No, because when it happened, I went straight to hospital in

23 Dobrinja so that I didn't know.

24 Q. Do you know whether any family member reported that, of your

25 family?

Page 2971

1 A. I really don't know.

2 Q. Witness Dzemal Maljanovic, who is on the photograph with you,

3 could you tell us where he lives? I'm asking you about the time in 1994

4 when he was with you. Where did he live then, in 1994?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. So you don't know where he lived?

7 A. I can't remember. I really don't know, no.

8 Q. Could you tell us one more thing? Was your husband a member of

9 the BH army?

10 A. No, he wasn't.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

12 Defence has no further questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Ms. Pilipovic. Any need for

14 re-examination?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Just two or three questions, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you remember at the time when you were shot,

19 whether it was light outside or had the sun set yet?

20 A. As far as I remember, it was sort of -- it was -- you could still

21 see. It was still visible, still a bit of daylight. It might have been

22 about 6.00, I think.

23 Q. Do you remember, as you were walking along the streets that day,

24 whether you saw any anti-sniping barriers or barricades of any kind?

25 A. I didn't. I don't really know. I can't remember.

Page 2972












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2973

1 Q. In response to some questions by my learned colleague, you replied

2 that you didn't know what Dzemal did for a living.

3 A. I don't know. I really don't.

4 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered so many questions, the Judges have no

9 additional questions to put to you, Mrs. Salcin. This means that we are

10 at the end of your examination as a witness. We are aware that it's a

11 long journey for you to come to The Hague. We also noticed that -- well,

12 you might have been a little bit nervous now and then, which we fully

13 understand because that's -- it's an entirely new environment for you.

14 We'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and your

15 willingness to answer all the questions, since the Judges will need

16 answers on all questions for the decisions we'll have to take. So thank

17 you very much for coming and I wish you a safe trip home again.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please lead the witness out

20 of the courtroom.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, the Registrar informs me that the medical

23 report has already been tendered into evidence during the testimony of I

24 think it was Dr. Nakas. Was there any reason to tender the documents

25 twice into evidence?

Page 2974

1 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So I understand that the application to have this

3 document admitted into evidence has been withdrawn.

4 Then, Madam Registrar, the other documents presented by the

5 Prosecution were a set of photos -- I'll just leave it to you to get the

6 right order.

7 THE REGISTRAR: A set of two photographs bearing the number P3259;

8 360-degree CD, P3279E; videotape, P3280F.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope I don't have

12 to repeat the Defence's position with respect to the video material, and

13 the objection is that it is not complete. So this applies to each of the

14 incidents and the material presented. We always have an objection, and

15 stand by our objection for the same reasons. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you'll understand that admitting the videos

17 into evidence is based upon the same considerations as been given before.

18 Then, Mr. Mundis, you may call -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Before we

20 have the following witness brought in to the courtroom, I should like to

21 take advantage of this opportunity to examine a point of procedure. And

22 we saw today that the transcripts, the English transcript and the English

23 statement, statement in English, of people who frequently only speak the

24 Serbian language are not always exact. There is more information in the

25 English version than exists in the Serbian version, so perhaps we could

Page 2975

1 begin by asking each witness whether they speak or read English. That

2 might be prudent in view of the fact that the statements are in English.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that if the statement indicates that

4 the statement has been read into his -- into the original language of the

5 accused, of course, the signature is about the original language and not

6 about having read the English version. But I do agree with you that we

7 need to be very precise that we detect whatever differences there are

8 between these versions. It is highly regrettable that there are

9 differences.

10 Then, Mr. Mundis, call your next witness.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Next witness, Mr. President, is Dzemal Maljanovic,

12 who will be testifying as to the same incident.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Maljanovic,

17 the rules of procedures and evidence require you to make a solemn

18 declaration at the beginning of your testimony. The text of this

19 declaration will now be given to you by the usher. Would you please make

20 that declaration aloud.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Maljanovic. Please be seated.

24 Mr. Maljanovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Mundis from the

25 Prosecution.

Page 2976

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

5 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, for the record, can you please state your full

6 name and spell your last name, please.

7 A. Dzemal Maljanovic, M-A-L-J-A-N-O-V-I-C.

8 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, can you please state your date of birth and the

9 town or city in which you were born.

10 A. The 21st of January, 1942, and the place is Jelec, Foca

11 municipality.

12 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, how long -- withdraw that question.

13 Mr. Maljanovic, when the war started in Bosnia, in what city were you

14 living?

15 A. Ilidza, that is one of the municipalities of Sarajevo.

16 Q. And when the war started, for how long had you been living in

17 Sarajevo?

18 A. The war began in 1992, and I had lived there since 1965.

19 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how the conditions

20 of life in Sarajevo changed once the war began.

21 A. The conditions changed very suddenly. There were barricades at

22 every step you took practically. There was snipers from every side.

23 There was a -- there were shortages of electricity, gas, water. And

24 humanitarian aid rarely reached Sarajevo so that there was a great deal of

25 hunger and general shortage of water and electricity. And life in

Page 2977

1 Sarajevo was very difficult.

2 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, when the war broke out, what was your occupation?

3 A. For the first month, when I was evicted from my house, I went

4 across a river. The river is called Zeljeznice, and the place is Otes.

5 And then I went to our army. Later on it was to become the BiH army, the

6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. And what did you do for the army?

8 A. We dug trenches. We stood guard at the front lines. And in that

9 first period, there was hardly any shooting, whereas the Serbs on the

10 other side, at Jelanica, were digging in. And when they started digging

11 in, they had the artillery as well. And they launched an attack on that

12 place -- a small place called Otes. And in four or five days -- during

13 four or five days, there was shelling and they took control of the place

14 after that.

15 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, when you worked for the army, were you doing so as

16 a civilian or as a soldier?

17 A. We didn't have any uniforms. Everybody wore what clothes they

18 had, their own clothes. Sometimes they would give us some boots. But we

19 dug trenches and stood guard up at the line, front line.

20 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, do you know a person named Fatima Salcin?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Do you recall when you first met her?

23 A. Well, I knew her since she was a girl, since she was a child.

24 Q. Were you related to Mrs. Salcin?

25 A. She's married to my relative. Actually, her husband and I are the

Page 2978

1 children of two sisters. My mother and her husband's mother are sisters.

2 That's how we are related.

3 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Maljanovic, when you were walking with

4 Mrs. Salcin and she was shot?

5 A. We were at my sister's place, that is to say she just happened to

6 come by. I was at my sister's place at Dobrinja, but she happened to drop

7 in. So we left together, and she lived in the C phase.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe we still have the

9 problem with the chronology. Perhaps we could find out the exact period

10 that my learned colleague is referring to.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Mundis.


13 Q. Do you recall the approximate date or the date that Mrs. Salcin

14 was shot?

15 A. I do: 13th of June, 1994.

16 Q. And when you were talking a few moments ago about being at your

17 sister's place, was that the same day?

18 A. Yes, yes, the same day.

19 Q. Do you recall approximately what time Mrs. Salcin arrived at your

20 sister's house in Dobrinja?

21 A. She arrived about noon, about mid-day, so we -- we sat there for a

22 while, because our apartments were nearby so that's why we set off. I

23 lived at Alipasino Polje and so did she, and she was in the C phase set of

24 buildings.

25 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you left your sister's house

Page 2979

1 on that day?

2 A. Well, from my sister's house to the spot of the wounding is about

3 ten minutes' walk, perhaps about that. I'm not quite sure, but it was

4 late afternoon when we set off, because the entire day, it had been

5 raining on that day.

6 Q. And is it correct to state that you were accompanying Mrs. Salcin

7 back to her apartment on that day?

8 A. No, no. It just happened that way. We set off together because

9 we lived nearby. It just happened that way, that we were walking back

10 together.

11 Q. Do you recall -- you've testified that it was raining. Do you

12 recall whether it was a heavy rain or a light rain? Can you characterise

13 the rain for us, please?

14 A. The entire day it had been a strong rain. It was heavy rain. I

15 should say it was -- it was summer rain. But then when we set off, it was

16 weak rain. It was -- it had almost stopped.

17 Q. Can you describe visibility on that day?

18 A. Well, it was visible, yes. It was quite visible. Visibility was

19 good.

20 Q. Do you recall whether or not the sun had set at the time you

21 departed?

22 A. It was cloudy. There was no sun. It was cloudy.

23 Q. Do you recall the route that you and Mrs. Salcin took when you

24 left your sister's house?

25 A. Yes, I do. We were walking by the street which goes from the

Page 2980

1 Nedzarici to Dobrinja, and then we went -- we turned into a round-about

2 road, which is the bypass which goes uphill, and as soon as we got off

3 that road, there were -- there were some -- there was some protection from

4 the snipers. There was some cover from the snipers. So we walked by two,

5 and as we went up the bypass, we were then -- and then we must have walked

6 out from behind these protection screens, so that's when we were visible.

7 So there was the -- there was these machine-gun nests, and there was one

8 on the former barracks and then there was one on the Catholic monastery.

9 So when we went quite some time from the road, we were then -- these were

10 sniper nests and we were easy targets, and so they -- they targeted us

11 from the back.

12 Q. Do you recall on which street the protective screens that you've

13 mentioned were located?

14 A. This is the street which goes from Nedzarici to Dobrinja and these

15 slabs, these protection slabs, they were concrete slabs. They were

16 four-by-four or four-by-five, so anybody could do -- walk or even drive

17 down that street because this was a protection. There were not only slabs

18 but there was also containers, there were lorries, anything that could

19 have protected this street from the sight of the snipers.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

21 the first photograph of Exhibit P3259, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please put it on the ELMO, Mr. Usher?


24 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, looking at Exhibit P3259, which is in front of you

25 on the ELMO, do you recognise yourself in that photograph?

Page 2981

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Do you recognise the other person in that photograph?

3 A. Yes, Fatima.

4 Q. Does this photograph depict the approximate location where you

5 were when Mrs. Salcin was shot?

6 A. Yes, exactly.

7 Q. Do you see in this photograph the location or locations where the

8 protective screens, the concrete slabs, were located?

9 A. Yes, I can see, but you can't see them now. They aren't there

10 now. They were all over there, all along there. There were containers,

11 slabs, lorries, anything they could have put up there as protection.

12 Q. Could you please take the pointer and indicate where on this

13 photograph these concrete slabs were located?

14 A. All along here, and the right-hand side, which goes from Nedzarici

15 to Dobrinja, and it was all along here.

16 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, Mr. President, I would like the

17 record to reflect that the witness was pointing along the road which is

18 horizontal to the bottom of the photograph.

19 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, on which side of that road were those concrete

20 slabs located?

21 A. On the right-hand side of the road as we were walking from

22 Nedzarici to Dobrinja.

23 Q. Would that be on the side of the road in which the buildings are

24 located in the background of the photograph or on the opposite side of the

25 road?

Page 2982

1 A. Yes, yes. Here, in the direction where the houses are.

2 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the witness is pointing to the far

3 side of the road looking at the photograph. That would be the side of the

4 road on which the buildings in the background are located.

5 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, you've indicated that the source of fire was a

6 former barracks or a monastery. The photo can be removed.

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what this barracks

9 was that you referred to?

10 A. The barracks was a typical barracks where -- where the troops

11 were. Troops, soldiers. This was former JNA barracks. So I don't know

12 how many troops there were in. I passed by that -- the barracks many,

13 many times. It could be two or three floors, but I'm not quite sure. I

14 could make a mistake. Everybody knows about the barracks. Everybody

15 knows where that is. There is just one barracks there.

16 Q. In what part of the city, the neighbourhood of the city, were

17 these barracks located?

18 A. Nedzarici. That's what we called it, Nedzarici.

19 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, were you aware during the course of the war as it

20 pertained to Sarajevo whether or not confrontation lines existed?

21 A. Yes, I was in Sarajevo. I knew every single line in the entire

22 city.

23 Q. And why were you familiar with these confrontation lines? How did

24 you become familiar with these confrontation lines?

25 A. Because we had to go and look for wood, for water, sometimes to

Page 2983












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2984

1 get some flour to make bread.

2 Q. This area known as Nedzarici, on which side of the confrontation

3 line was that area located?

4 A. This was on the right-hand side. In the direction of walking from

5 Nedzarici to Dobrinja, it was on the right side.

6 Q. Do you know which armed force or forces controlled the area that

7 encompasses Nedzarici?

8 A. Yes. It was held by the armed forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

9 Q. The area known as Dobrinja where your sister lived, which force or

10 forces controlled that part of the city?

11 A. One smaller part was under the control of the Bosnian Serbs, and

12 the larger part was under the control of the BH army.

13 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

14 Exhibit P3100.

15 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, you have before you P3100, which is a map. Have

16 you seen this map before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you interviewed by an investigator from the Tribunal in 1995?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. As part of that interview, did you make some markings on the map

21 which is now before you?

22 A. I don't need any markings because I know my way around.

23 Q. I understand that, Mr. Maljanovic. But the question was whether

24 you made any markings on the map which is now in front of you.

25 A. Yes, I did. I marked a spot where the wounding happened. Yes,

Page 2985

1 where Fatima was wounded, that spot.

2 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be handed the pointer

3 and he indicates on the map, if he is able to do so, the spot that he

4 marked with the investigator.

5 A. Yes, here it is. There is this road.

6 Q. For the record, the witness is pointing to the "X" marked in blue

7 ink to the left of the part of the map marked "Novi Grad."

8 Mr. Maljanovic, there are also what appear to be five lines with

9 arrows on them. Did you make those markings as well?

10 A. That's right. Yes, this is the direction that we were walking

11 in. Here is the Lukavica road. It is also -- some of the other people

12 call it Dobrinska Road. And here you can see that the street is called

13 Ive Andrica Street, but there is no street name. But people call it that.

14 Q. Are you familiar with the general location of where the monastery

15 would be with relation to this map?

16 A. Yes, that used to be the main road here, and the barracks. And

17 this is the main road that we went home, where I was born. And by the

18 barracks through Butmir, so I don't know. I went there on many, many

19 occasions. But the barracks is closer to the road than the monastery is.

20 Q. Do you think you could detect the approximate location of the

21 barracks looking at the map that's before you?

22 A. Yes, I can. About here.

23 Q. Could you please mark that spot with a blue wide marker, please,

24 the spot where the barracks was located.

25 A. Yes, here's the -- this is where the retired people home is. Here

Page 2986

1 where the -- this "X" here, so on the right-hand side by this settlement

2 here. Yes, this circle with an "X." There is -- the old people's home is

3 there. Yes, here.

4 Q. Can you please mark an "X," a large "X," in the approximate

5 location where the barracks is located.

6 A. I think it's here.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maljanovic.

8 MR. MUNDIS: We're finished with the map, Mr. Usher.

9 Q. Can you please describe what happened as you and Fatima Salcin

10 were walking along the road shortly before she was shot on the 13th of

11 June, 1995 -- 1994, rather.

12 A. Well, she said we should take that route because it was closer.

13 So she wanted us to go uphill. And it was clean. There was no firing, so

14 she suggested we should take that -- my bypass road, and I said that it

15 wouldn't be a good idea because there was sniping. And she said that --

16 there was a cease-fire, that we couldn't even hear one bullet. So I

17 listened to her, and we took that road.

18 And as soon as we were about, maybe, a hundred metres away, we

19 just went past by the slabs where there is no more protection, I turned

20 around, and I saw that it was dangerous. At that very moment, there was a

21 shot. Sniper fired and hit -- shot Fatima in her hand. So then we

22 immediately fell to the floor -- to the ground so that we wouldn't be

23 exposed because we could not be shot at while we were lying on the

24 ground. And then there was a second shot, which couldn't hit us. And

25 then I suggested, because there was a -- we just went downhill. We rolled

Page 2987

1 downhill about ten times. So they really couldn't shoot at us any more,

2 not even with a shell.

3 So after about a hundred metres, we ran to a shop. And there was

4 a Renault 4 with a running engine there. And I asked the owner to let me

5 have the vehicle to take Fatima to the hospital. He didn't let me have

6 the vehicle, but he offered to drive us himself up to the Dobrinja

7 hospital. And from the moment of the wounding, it was about ten minutes

8 later that she was already transported to the hospital because she was

9 bleeding heavily. Her hand was bleeding a lot, and I was trying to hold

10 on to her hand to prevent further bleeding.

11 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Maljanovic, what you were wearing on the day

12 that Mrs. Salcin was shot?

13 A. I had some -- some -- something like what I am wearing now.

14 Civilian. It was summer clothes, because it was summer.

15 Q. Were you carrying any type of military weapon at the time she was

16 shot?

17 A. No. I did not even have a razor blade. As far as any weapons are

18 concerned, or any knives or firearms, I did not have anything.

19 Q. What type of clothing was Mrs. Salcin wearing on that day?

20 A. The same, just ordinary, whatever women wear. There was no hint

21 of a uniform.

22 Q. Was she carrying any type of military weapon at the time?

23 A. No, absolutely not.

24 Q. Were there any soldiers or other people wearing military uniforms

25 in the immediate vicinity when she was shot?

Page 2988

1 A. No, no, there weren't any.

2 Q. Were there any type of military equipment or heavy military

3 vehicles?

4 A. No, there was nothing. No, there was nothing like that.

5 Q. You testified a few moments ago that a ceasefire was in effect.

6 Do you recall --

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Do you recall when that ceasefire began?

9 A. I don't remember, really. I remember there were quite a few

10 ceasefires and not a single one was respected. No matter how many there

11 were, not a single one was truly observed.

12 Q. Do you know if anyone else was the victim of sniping fire on the

13 same street, at or near the same location where Mrs. Salcin was shot, on

14 that same day?

15 A. Yes. On that day, I did not see anything, but we heard it in the

16 hospital, when we took her to the hospital, that a young man had been

17 killed, that he was cycling along and he had been killed, and then there

18 was another person, I don't know whether it's a man or a woman, that that

19 person as well had been shot at. That was before Fatima was shot. Now,

20 whether there was somebody after Fatima was shot, I don't know.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Maljanovic.

22 The Prosecution has no further questions of the witness at this

23 time, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you ready to

25 cross-examine the witness?

Page 2989

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, if you'll

2 allow me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. Witness, good afternoon to you and thank you for coming here.

7 A. Hello.

8 Q. You told us a moment ago - and I believe that in the transcript it

9 is page 44, line 19, approximately - you said you were employed by the

10 army to dig trenches; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you were digging these trenches, what

13 did you use, in terms of equipment, to do that?

14 A. We were using a pick and a shovel.

15 Q. Witness, you said earlier that you knew -- you were aware of the

16 front lines exactly, that you knew them very well; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. I thought that was useful.

18 Q. Thank you for this answer. Did you also know the trenches, that

19 is to say, did you know of their position?

20 A. I do know where I had to go and dig. In Nedzarici not so well.

21 In Stup, I did. If I had to look for food and water, I could find it.

22 Whatever was important to find, I could find it, and of course where the

23 snipers had to run, I know where I had to wait for nightfall.

24 Q. Witness, were there many trenches in Sarajevo? And I'm talking

25 about the entire period of the war.

Page 2990

1 A. Yes, many. There were trenches I did not know. There were

2 trenches I really did not know about. Sarajevo is a large city. Of

3 course, I did not know everything. But the routes I took, I knew quite a

4 lot about them. I knew them quite well.

5 Q. Witness, as far as you can recall, the front lines and the

6 trenches, were they actually often confused in the -- in reality as the

7 way things happened?

8 A. I don't know of that. I wouldn't say that. I don't know of that.

9 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I would like Mr. Usher to

10 show you in a minute the same map that you were shown a moment ago by the

11 Prosecution, and -- and it's a P3100 number. And if you have to mark

12 the --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the witness needs to mark

14 the man, could he please be given a black marker?

15 For the interpreters, I am watching out.

16 Q. Witness, you can see the map before you; is that right?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please use a black marker and

19 indicate and mark, as far as you can recall, what was the situation on the

20 map? Could you tell us where the front lines were exactly on the map that

21 you have before you, please?

22 A. The students' hostel.

23 Q. Witness, allow me to interrupt you. In so far as you can

24 remember, will you please mark on the map directly the -- how the lines

25 went? Thank you.

Page 2991

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Will you please trace the lines on the map as far as you can.

3 A. Like this, the old people's home. This would be roughly it.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 A. It should be more or less like that.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Will you please -- just for the sake of clarity, now that your

8 memory has come back, will you now retrace these lines. Will you make the

9 line thicker, because some of them are barely visible. Will you please

10 just draw those lines once again to make the line thicker. It's merely so

11 that we can really read -- see what you've drawn.

12 A. I made a mistake here, the old people's home, and the line was on

13 the other side of it. This is it more or less.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. I believe on the left-hand side, below this

15 cross that you made, I see still three lines which are not quite clear.

16 Are they equally front lines? Will you come down to the left, down and to

17 the left, please.

18 Can the -- yes, yes, a little bit more, yes. Thank you, that is

19 it.

20 Witness, we see a third trace which is over the cross which you,

21 yourself, put in. Is that it? Is that what you did? For the transcript,

22 is that one of the lines? Witness, do you see -- sorry. Do you see this,

23 which I believe -- see on the left-hand side below the cross which you,

24 yourself, drew a moment ago?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think I will

Page 2992

1 need the assistance of the Chamber because...


3 Yes, Mr. Maljanovic, we see that you have drawn a rather thin line

4 just -- you can hear me?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Just below the cross you indicated on the

7 intersection of two roads, do you see that? It goes from the side of the

8 map, the left-hand side, up to the right. Is that also part of the front

9 line?

10 Mr. Usher, could you please follow my guidance by indicating on

11 the map -- yes. That -- yes. That line, do you see that, Mr. Maljanovic?

12 A. I do. I do, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's the spot you were referring to. Is that also

14 part of the front line or is this --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak into the

16 microphone.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please.

18 A. No, no, it's not. It's not the front line. I made a mistake. It

19 couldn't be here since the barracks is right here, so that would mean that

20 it went through the centre of the place where the Serb troops were. So it

21 wasn't. It wasn't here. I made a mistake.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well, Witness. You told us that you knew perfectly all the

24 front lines in the town, yet this line --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The counsel and the witness are

Page 2993

1 speaking at the same time.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. This line is, therefore, not the front line?

4 A. No, it is not the front line.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

6 between question and answer, not speak one over the other.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maljanovic, since everything has to be translated

8 in this courtroom, if you respond already when Mr. Piletta-Zanin is still

9 talking, then the interpreters cannot translate both of you at the same

10 time. So would you please wait until Mr. Piletta-Zanin has finished what

11 he has said, then wait for just a couple of seconds, and then give the

12 answer.

13 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please, could you resume where the

14 confusion started.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm

16 trying to be as fast as I can, but you see that for technical reasons I

17 cannot do it. And for the transcript, the line which is just below the

18 cross is not one of the front lines.

19 Q. However, as for the thicker lines, Witness, the ones that you draw

20 and which cross Nedzarici, were there any trenches along those front

21 lines, along that front line?

22 A. Oh, I don't know. There were these slabs of concrete, so you

23 couldn't even get with a car through. How could I know what was behind

24 them? All I knew, that there were these concrete blocks there and where

25 our troops went to change shifts, but I never measured so I cannot see how

Page 2994












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2995

1 far they are.

2 Q. Yes. Witness, but you just told us, you used the word, said

3 "many." You said in your language "puno," that is, many trenches. Will

4 you please tell us where are all the trenches that you had to dig? And

5 then we shall know. Or quickly, can you do it on the map, please. Can

6 you show us where is it that you dug those trenches.

7 First, will you please use the pointer, and then we shall mark

8 them.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If it is easier for you, Mr. Maljanovic --

10 A. Next to the barracks --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- unless there's any marking, it might be easier for

12 you to have it in front of you.

13 And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, will you just give me one second.

14 A. Here, right next to the barracks, I think. And on Stupsko Brdo.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, but now we have a

16 technical difficulty because nobody can follow what the witness is

17 saying. So we now have this difficulty.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have to find a balance between the witness being

19 able to concentrate better on the map and at the same time for us to

20 follow what he does. Perhaps it should be put again on the ELMO now the

21 witness has identified what he would like to identify.

22 Mr. Maljanovic, could we just put it back on the machine so that

23 we can follow it as well? Yes, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oslobodjenja, Stupsko Brdo, Zane

25 [phoen], the concrete plant in Gusic, this is the concrete plant, and all

Page 2996

1 the way up to Kasindolska Street, before that, before Kasindolska was in

2 the Serb hands.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, now that you've identified that, will you please take the

5 black marker to make a circle around the area that you've just told us,

6 that is put a circle, the area that you indicated as the area where you

7 dug trenches, and put letter "T" there to indicate "trenches," which is

8 the same both in English and French, and I believe also in Serbian, that

9 same term is used from time to time, I understand.

10 A. I can't find the Kasindolska Street here.

11 Q. Witness, isn't it a street --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, circles and lines. I think, for

13 trenches, lines are to be preferred. Yes, then please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I agree. This is the

15 area where he worked because this witness cannot mark the trenches

16 precisely, but in this way, we shall have an idea geographically -- the

17 geographical area where he dug those trenches, but I will then proceed to

18 ask questions with regard to the circle.

19 Q. Witness, now that you've identified the place, if you cannot find

20 the street, this street is just below the -- I believe that the street

21 that you are looking for is right below the Sarajevska Cesta, but will you

22 please circle the area where you dug those trenches?

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you have difficulties in doing so, Mr. Maljanovic,

24 please tell us. The question was whether you could --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can't find the Sarajevska Cesta, the

Page 2997

1 Sarajevo Road. I can't find Sarajevska Cesta, Sarajevo Road.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I think you have to start from the old people's home. Yes. You

4 then go down Stup, very good, very good.

5 A. Yes, I think it's like this, like this, down to the -- down to the

6 river, or rather Dobrinja stream which flows through there, and one bank

7 was held by the Bosnian Serbs and the other bank by the BH army.

8 Q. Can you now make the circle? Now that you've remembered the area,

9 will you please make a circle around it?

10 JUDGE ORIE: We are just talking about the area where you dug

11 trenches. Just make a circle around it to where it approximately was.

12 A. Like this, as far as I can remember.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes, thank you very much. Will you now put a "T" there, a capital

15 "T"? Will you put it there so that we know, right next to that line, if

16 you can? Yes, there, it will be perfect. Thank you very much.

17 Now, witness, did you also dig trenches in the Mojmilo

18 neighbourhood, for instance?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Witness, did you dig trenches in other areas, notably near

21 Nedzarici?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Witness, in so far as you dug those trenches in the area of

24 Nedzarici, will you please indicate where that was?

25 A. The Oslobodjenja building and the old people's home, club.

Page 2998

1 Q. Will you, Witness, please use the marker to put capital "T"s to

2 those two places?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I am going back to the front line that you

5 drew here, and which passes through the area of Nedzarici. You yourself

6 drew that line in black, but did you also dig trenches there?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Witness, now will you also add a "T" at the place next to this

9 line, at a place where you dug trenches?

10 A. Well, I've already put it.

11 Q. I don't think I can see it on this green. I'm referring -- no.

12 Then perhaps I did not understand you well, Witness. Witness, wait,

13 wait. Will you please wait just a moment. Thank you. There where you

14 have the marker a moment ago, you indicated the front line crossing the

15 Nedzarici area, and I am asking you if you dug trenches along that line

16 and I believe I heard you answer, "Yes."

17 A. No, no, no. Here. No, no, no. Not there. But Oslobodjenja and

18 the old people's home, but here where the students' hostel is, I did not,

19 and the blind people's institute, we didn't. We couldn't dig them there

20 because the Serb troops held that area.

21 Q. Very well, Witness. You told us that you were in the army. Which

22 was the army corps that you were a member of?

23 A. I don't know, honestly. I've forgotten it. Some mountain

24 something. I don't remember which one. Can't remember. I've forgotten

25 it.

Page 2999

1 Q. That was not my question, Witness. You were a member of the

2 army. Is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So Witness, what rank did you hold?

5 A. I was a foot soldier.

6 Q. So you were a foot soldier. And you had to obey your superiors,

7 didn't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Very well. So you had an officer who issued you orders. Is that

10 so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this officer belonged to a brigade, didn't he?

13 A. He commanded a company, or perhaps there was that brigade which

14 I've forgotten.

15 Q. So you cannot remember your company, the company that you belonged

16 to during the war?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And how long did you spend as a member of the army, in the army?

19 A. Well, I was with it until - let me see - the 29th of January,

20 1993.

21 Q. So how many years did you -- were you an active member of the

22 army?

23 A. Well, altogether, altogether, about from the beginning -- well,

24 for about eight months.

25 Q. Witness, and during those eight months that you were a member of

Page 3000

1 the army, in which barracks were you billeted, of course, if you were in

2 any barracks?

3 A. There were no barracks. It was just plain buildings, that is,

4 refugees, people who had fled, and we used those flats instead of any

5 barracks.

6 Q. That is, you stayed -- you were accommodated with the refugees?

7 A. No, no, no, not the refugees. The refugees had fled and left

8 their apartments. I am referring to refugees who had abandoned their

9 apartments.

10 Q. So you were then billeted in residential houses?

11 A. That's right, yes, and there were also private homes, family

12 houses which were also used as barracks.

13 Q. Witness, so your battalion was billeted in apartment buildings and

14 in family houses. Is that how I should understand your answer?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you show us on the map where -- at the

17 time when you were serving the army, where was, for instance, that

18 residential building where some of the troops were quartered?

19 Witness, you -- so you found Otes.

20 A. Yes, if Otes is on the map, that's where it was.

21 Q. Will you please find Otes on the map.

22 A. Well, I'm looking for it. It's not here. Otes is not here.

23 Q. Right. But they were civilian houses where you were accommodated,

24 is that so, at Otes? O-t-e-s, in civilian houses.

25 A. Quite.

Page 3001

1 Q. Very well. Well, I'm going back to Alipasino Polje, at Alipasino

2 Polje, I'm repeating this, were also some troops there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Witness, did the front line -- as far as you can remember, did it

5 pass close to this area which I have just mentioned and which is called

6 Alipasino Polje?

7 A. No, that's the one, Nedzarici, that's the line. And at Stup.

8 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, what was the distance between the two

9 front lines or between the two positioning lines?

10 A. I really don't know. Not much. I know that it wasn't a big

11 distance.

12 Q. You tell us it wasn't very far. Can you perhaps be more precise

13 and tell us, are we talking about metres, hundreds of metres, dozens of

14 metres?

15 A. Oh, come on. Metres.

16 Q. What do you mean by this, Witness?

17 A. Well, say, what we pointed at in Nedzarici, it could have been

18 about a hundred metres or so. But I'm not sure, believe me, because I

19 didn't go there. I did not dig anything there, so it's only from what the

20 soldiers said that were very near.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm about to finish,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just wonder, if you intend to conclude, then

Page 3002

1 we'll just wait until you're finished. Or did you finish? How much time

2 would you still need?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no, Mr. President.

4 Perhaps I should confer with my colleague.

5 We need only a few more minutes, not more than that.

6 Q. Yes, Witness, perhaps just three quick questions. The first:

7 During your service, at the time when you were an active member and

8 guarded the lines, did you carry a weapon?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. What kind of a weapon did you have?

11 A. We had M-48s and some had the automatic ones. A man here and

12 there would have an automatic.

13 Q. Witness, were there soldiers -- active-duty soldiers who did not

14 have any weapons?

15 A. Yes, there were such cases, too.

16 Q. Witness, do you know if the soldiers who did not have any --

17 Witness, insofar as you know, how did the soldiers who did not have the

18 weapons did they get them, who did not own any weapons, how did they get

19 any weapons?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. Thank you very much. And I believe that the last question you

22 draw on the map, which is to your right, you drew the front line which

23 crosses the neighbourhood which I mentioned a moment ago. On that front

24 line -- Witness, on that front line, that is which you, yourself, drew and

25 which goes from left to right more or less, in the direction of the

Page 3003

1 pointer as you have it now, can you confirm it, whether the two armies at

2 the time were opposed, faced one another?

3 A. That's as far as I know.

4 Q. And Witness, and this will be my very last question: Does the

5 same go for the -- does this go for the years 1992, 1993, and 1994? Does

6 it hold true of all these years?

7 A. I believe that that was so throughout the war.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have finished,

9 Mr. President. Thank you very much for your patience.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for concluding the cross-examination.

11 Is there any need, Mr. Mundis, for re-examination? Before we even

12 would start with it, could you then please indicate how much time you

13 need, because if possible, of course, you'll understand, I would very much

14 like to conclude the examination of this witness today, but I have to look

15 at both the technical staff and the interpreters on whether this would be

16 possible. So could you give an indication on how much time you would

17 need.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would indicate two questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Two questions. Would the --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance. And I hope

22 the same is true for the technical staff.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

Page 3004

1 Q. Mr. Maljanovic, at the time that Fatima Salcin was shot, that is,

2 June 13th, 1994, had your military service come to an end?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On June 13th, 1994, at any time during that day, were you engaged

5 in any type of trench-digging or other military activities?

6 A. No, no. No, I was not.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maljanovic.

8 MR. MUNDIS: And thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

10 Mr. Maljanovic, you've come a long way from Sarajevo to answer all

11 the questions put to you.

12 I first ask my colleagues whether they have any additional

13 questions. I see that Judge Nieto-Navia has questions for you as well.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have only one question. Please look at the

16 map and then tell me whether you can see the Catholic monastery.

17 A. That's where it is.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you circle it with a red --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Red marker, yes.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: -- with a red.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has questions for you.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, good afternoon, Witness. My

25 question is a very short one.

Page 3005












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3006

1 In the afternoon when the incident took place, if I understand

2 well, it was in late afternoon right before sunset. Do you remember from

3 which direction did the two shots come? Yes, I know; I understand it was

4 raining, but it was nevertheless daylight.

5 Was there any sunshine or not? Was the sun setting in the

6 direction from which the shots had come, or what do you say?

7 A. There was no sun that day. It was overcast, and there was

8 drizzle -- well, there was this summer shower. It had stopped, but then

9 it turned into a drizzle so that one practically did not need the umbrella

10 any longer.

11 But the bullets came from behind our backs.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, right. You are talking

13 about two bullets. The first one, you say, is the one which hurt the lady

14 who was in your company, and after that, you threw yourselves on the

15 ground because on the ground, as you say, you could not be targeted; you

16 would not be visible.

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the second bullet, was it --

19 it was aimed at whom? What do you think? Was it also fired in your

20 direction?

21 A. Well, I wouldn't know who it was aimed at, but the moment that

22 Fatima was hit, I immediately told her, "Get down," immediately, so that

23 we went down to the ground. And whether it was only this bullet or more

24 bullets, I really do not remember. The first one hit her; the second one

25 possibly was fired at the time when we were already on the ground, could

Page 3007

1 have been.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But then when you fled, you were

3 outside the range, according to you?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maljanovic, I also have one more question for

7 you. You told us before that while choosing your way back, that you were

8 aware of places where machine-guns were located. You talked about the

9 former barracks and the Catholic monastery. You then told us that these

10 were sniper nests. How did you know that these arms were located, and how

11 did you know about the location of the sniper nests so precisely for the

12 former barracks and the Catholic monastery?

13 A. Why, we knew from the place where Fatima was wounded, and then

14 some 20 metres down, where there was an underground passage -- pedestrian

15 subway, because the pedestrians would use that tunnel under the asphalt

16 road. And then they also targeted the pedestrian lane which was also

17 shielded, protected, with concrete slabs so that there was no danger from

18 the snipers insofar as pedestrians were concerned, if we took that road.

19 But at that place, as from what they tell us, that is an area of about 500

20 metres, half a kilometre, over 500 people were killed there, children and

21 others, but mostly pedestrians, in that -- and it was then that these

22 slabs of concrete were put up by the road and down to the embankment where

23 the pedestrians moved. Those concrete slabs were put there so that people

24 could go safe from the snipers. And we knew exactly from where the shots

25 were coming, from the monastery and from the barracks. We knew that

Page 3008

1 exactly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: How did you know that it was exactly from these spots

3 that the shots were coming?

4 A. Well, we knew because we were moving in the direction -- we were

5 walking. As she was hit, we were going uphill, and she was hit in the

6 right hand, just as she was walking, from behind our backs. So it

7 couldn't have come from any other direction.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do know that it is the direction, but you did not

9 just point at a direction where the shots came from, but you said you

10 specifically knew about sniper nests at the former barracks and the

11 Catholic monastery, so not one of the other houses around, but these

12 specific spots. How would you know that exactly at these locations,

13 these --

14 A. Well, because the Catholic monastery was taller than the private

15 houses and the barracks, too, and there were troops in the barracks. I

16 mean, Bosnian Serbs held it. So that it was a good place for that. So

17 they could -- had there been another building there, then they wouldn't

18 have been able to fire from the barracks. So I think that - but it's only

19 my opinion - that they came from that -- that the shots presumably came

20 from the monastery.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So that's a deduction from what you knew?

22 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. This means that after the

24 Judges have put questions to you, I started already some seven, eight

25 minutes ago to tell you that it must have been a long way for you to come

Page 3009

1 to The Hague. We thank you very much for having taken the effort to come

2 here, and to answer to all the questions, since answers to the questions

3 put by the parties and by the Judges finally enable us to take those

4 decisions which we'll have to take. So thank you very much for having

5 come, and I wish you a good journey home again.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the decisions on the admission into

9 evidence could be taken by now, I think.

10 THE REGISTRAR: There is one exhibit, P3100.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And that is the map that has been marked during the

12 examination of the witness.

13 It's quarter past 1.00 now. We would resume at half past 2.00. I

14 can imagine that we start a quarter of an hour later, but I'd rather not

15 spend less than one hour and a half this afternoon, if this would be

16 possible so --

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're standing. I don't know whether you have

18 any specific observations in this respect or anything else to --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, merely to

20 clarify certain things. I believe that on page 67, line 22, there is

21 something incoherent between what the -- because the English transcript, I

22 believe, is not quite accurate. The question that I was asking this

23 witness was -- had to do with the existence of groups of soldiers which

24 used a term which was not -- and I do not find it in the transcript, and

25 that is -- and I suppose -- the answer that was received was not the --

Page 3010

1 the answer is not logical, that is, did they follow any bearer of arms?

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll request, when the transcript is further worked

3 on, to pay special attention to this page 67.

4 About starting time, would you prefer to start a quarter of an

5 hour later and go on for one hour and a half or just to start -- yes, I

6 see that -- so if we then start at quarter to 3.00, but I'd like to use

7 all the time available to us, and I hope it's still one hour and a half,

8 although we went 18 minutes overtime at this moment.

9 We will adjourn until 2.45.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
















Page 3011

1 --- On resuming at 2.48 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

4 permission, the Defence would like to raise a problem of form and

5 substance with respect to the list of exhibits or documents given to us by

6 the registrar. We have received two types of lists, in fact; one list

7 concerning Defence Exhibits, documents, which is a very short list, and

8 was produced by the registrar. And a second list, which is the

9 Prosecution list, which seems to be elaborated on the basis of their own

10 documents, the Prosecution documents. That being the case --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I had the same problems in looking at the long list

12 and getting it out of my computer. I immediately started trying to see

13 how you can solve this problem. I think it is a table in Word, Madam

14 Registrar, am I right? Tables in Word can be easily sorted so that empty

15 boxes would all go down and filled-in boxes would all come up. I don't

16 know whether the date entries of the date when they are tendered in

17 evidence, Madam Registrar, whether they are in the date format of Word

18 because then even you could sort them on the basis of the exact date. So

19 I think there are easy technical solutions for that. If you do not know

20 your manual of Word by heart, just put the questions and I'll be too glad

21 to assist you.

22 I do understand that you got a hard copy instead of an electronic

23 copy, but even that, I think, could be solved. Technic is not only our

24 enemy but also our friend now and then.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thank you for

Page 3012

1 making those observations, which were necessary. What I wanted to say was

2 not of a technical nature, and I do apologise for going back to it. But

3 we have on the one side several grams of paper; on the other side, several

4 hundred grams of paper. So in the Prosecution list of documents, we think

5 that all we would need would be simple numbers and titles, but we have a

6 number of important documents here, too.

7 So this is just a presentation of facts which seems to me to be

8 unilateral for each of the incidents and occurrences. I don't think we

9 can accept it that way, and the Defence would like to underline this. So

10 we could respect the same procedure for the Defence list, and I think the

11 Defence list is clearer and simpler. And this would not give rise to a

12 technical problem and, therefore, need assistance in its solution. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Just from the technical problem, I do agree with you

15 that these kind of lists should just contain such a description of the

16 document so that any misunderstanding will be avoided. I'll look into the

17 matter and I'll let you know.

18 But I hope, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the following will assist you: The

19 Chamber has considered your request to be accompanied by an assistant in

20 the courtroom. You have confirmed to us that it would not be at any

21 additional charge or any costs for the Tribunal. We have considered the

22 request, and under this condition that it will bring no additional cost

23 for the Tribunal, your request is granted. So you may be assisted by your

24 assistant in the courtroom.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to

Page 3013

1 extend its gratitude. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I did not follow the last...

3 So, Mr. Mundis, who will be your next witness to be called?

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution calls Mirsad

5 Abdurahmanovic. For the benefit of the Bench and the Defence, this

6 witness will be testifying with respect to scheduled sniping incident

7 number 19.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, welcome in this courtroom,

12 Mr. Abdurahmanovic. The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

13 make a solemn declaration before the examination starts. The text of this

14 declaration will be given to you now by the usher. Would you then,

15 please, make that declaration?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Abdurahmanovic. You will first

21 be examined by Mr. Mundis from the Prosecution team. The Prosecution has

22 called you as a witness.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

Page 3014

1 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, for the record, can you please state your full

2 name and spell your last name, please?

3 A. My name is Mirsad Abdurahmanovic, A-B-D-U-R-A-H-M-A-N-O-V-I-C.

4 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber your date of birth and the

5 town or municipality in which you were born?

6 A. I was born on the 30th of September, 1962, in Bijeljina,

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, did your family live in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did your family move to Sarajevo?

11 A. I was about a year old at the time. I was a child.

12 Q. So it would be fair to say that you spent virtually your entire

13 life living in the city of Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were you living in Sarajevo when the war broke out in Bosnia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know when the war broke out, or approximately when the war

18 broke out, in Bosnia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please indicate to the Trial Chamber the approximate time

21 when the war started?

22 A. 1992, May, thereabouts.

23 Q. At the time when the war broke out, what was your occupation?

24 A. I worked in a company.

25 Q. What type of company did you work in?

Page 3015

1 A. PTT engineering, the post office, in fact.

2 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how life in

3 Sarajevo changed once the war started?

4 A. It changed completely. We lived very well until the war broke

5 out. When the war broke out, we had nothing, no electricity, no water.

6 We didn't have food. We lived in fear. We were afraid that somebody --

7 something might hit us. We had to hide, take cover.

8 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, when you say, "We were afraid that something

9 might hit us," can you be more specific?

10 A. Well, a shell, a bullet, snipers, that kind of thing. We spent

11 the whole day in fear. You never knew when there would be shooting or

12 anything.

13 Q. Did there come a time during the war where very clearly

14 discernible confrontation lines came to exist between the warring

15 parties?

16 A. I didn't quite understand your question.

17 Q. Did there come a time during the war where there were

18 confrontation lines between the two warring parties?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall approximately when those confrontation lines became

21 established?

22 A. About the end of 1992.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the two parties that were fighting

24 during the conflict in Bosnia, or more specifically in Sarajevo?

25 A. The Bosnia-Herzegovina army and the aggressor.

Page 3016












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Page 3017

1 Q. And which army do you refer to as the aggressor?

2 A. Well, the former Yugoslav army and their volunteers.

3 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, in what neighbourhood of Sarajevo did you

4 live?

5 A. Cengic Vila.

6 Q. Which side in the conflict controlled the area that encompassed

7 Cengic Vila?

8 A. The Bosnian army.

9 Q. Was there a location near Cengic Vila that was controlled by the

10 aggressor army?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What was the nearest part of the city to where you lived that was

13 controlled by the aggressor army?

14 A. Hrasno Brdo.

15 Q. And approximately how far --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has an objection with

19 respect to the manner in which my learned colleague is asking his

20 questions. I think so far we have ascertained there were two armies, the

21 army of Republika Srpska and the BH army. I think that my colleague

22 probably made a mistake in asking the question he just did speaking about

23 the aggressor army. There are two armies, the BH army and the army of

24 Republika Srpska.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the army of the Republika Srpska has

Page 3018

1 not been yet mentioned by the witness as far as I know, and he has

2 referred to the other army as the army of the aggressor. But since I

3 would prefer not to talk in terms of -- at least not for the whole period

4 of time -- about aggressors and defenders, would you be able, Mr. Mundis,

5 to find out exactly what army referred to as the "aggressors" would be.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly, Mr. President, I'll clarify.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you could then use that denomination as

8 well.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, are you familiar with the term the "VRS"?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what the VRS stands for, please.

13 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

14 Q. And is the VRS the armed force that you refer to as the

15 "aggressor"?

16 A. Well, it wasn't the army of Republika Srpska at that time. Then,

17 when they attacked us, it was not the army of Republika Srpska. That was

18 later on.

19 Q. Do you know approximately when the term "army of Republika Srpska"

20 became in common use?

21 A. I don't know exactly.

22 Q. Would it be fair to say that it was sometime after the war started

23 in Bosnia?

24 A. Yes, afterwards. Yes, that's quite natural.

25 Q. A few moments ago, you testified that the Hrasno Brdo area was the

Page 3019

1 closest area to your home controlled by the VRS. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Approximately how far from your neighbourhood of Cengic Vila was

4 Hrasno Brdo?

5 A. About 2 kilometres.

6 Q. Do you know approximately where the confrontation line ran with

7 respect to your neighbourhood?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Witness, do you happen to know a person younger than yourself

10 named Edin, Edin?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know this person's family name?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you recall approximately what time period you met this person?

15 A. I met him in the war.

16 Q. Do you recall approximately how old this person was when you first

17 met him?

18 A. 15, 16.

19 Q. Do you recall an incident in which this young person was shot by a

20 sniper?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please describe that incident for the benefit of the Trial

23 Chamber.

24 A. Yes. There was no shooting that day at Cengic Vila. We were

25 standing around, three or four of us friends, and this man Edin, this

Page 3020

1 young guy Edin, he was with us in front of a pizzeria. And there was a

2 dog with us. We sat in the pizza parlour for a bit and then we sat

3 outside because it was a fine day, nice and sunny. And then at one point,

4 we went outside --

5 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Just to clarify matters, I don't remember hearing my friend state the

9 period because I think an attack was mentioned. So could we have the time

10 frame?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that this would be one of

12 the next questions, and I can't imagine that this is at this moment of

13 vital importance. Most important thing is that finally perhaps a date is

14 mentioned, if at least the Prosecution wants to ask for a date. So I

15 would say just let the witness answer the question.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Abdurahmanovic. Please go ahead.

17 A. As I say, we went outside. And we were in between these two shops

18 in front of the pizza parlour, and we were playing around with the dog.

19 We were joking, playing around with him. He jumped about. And all we

20 heard was the sound "tup." You couldn't hear a bullet being fired, just

21 this blunt sound "tup." And Edin got hold of his stomach and he said, "I

22 have been shot."

23 And at that precise moment, one of our friends said, "Something

24 just whizzed past my head." And we rushed inside, into the pizzeria,

25 because we were frightened of more shooting. We pulled up Edin's shirt,

Page 3021

1 and we saw a hole in his stomach and blood coming out where the bullet had

2 hit him. We waited for a minute or two, and when there was no more

3 shooting, one of my friends, Sejo, put Edin into a car and took him to

4 hospital.

5 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, do you recall approximately on what day or

6 month or year this incident occurred?

7 A. It was in 1994. That was the year. I don't remember the day, but

8 I think it was summertime because it was a nice, sunny, clear day, but I

9 can't remember the exact date.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was when this incident

11 occurred?

12 A. The afternoon, in the afternoon sometime.

13 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like that day, other than it

14 being sunny? Was it warm, cold?

15 A. It was warm, yes, warm, and we were all wearing T-shirts.

16 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other people who were with

17 you on that day?

18 A. I just remember Sejo because he had a car.

19 Q. Did you ever go see Edin while he was in the hospital?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever see him after the time he was taken to the hospital?

22 A. Yes, I did. When he left hospital, that's when I saw him.

23 Q. Do you recall approximately how long he was in the hospital?

24 A. About ten days.

25 Q. Witness, on the day that Edin was shot, were you in the military?

Page 3022

1 A. I was free that day.

2 Q. That was an off-duty day, then, for you; is that correct?

3 A. Wasn't on duty.

4 Q. But during that general time period, you were in the army of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Were you wearing any item of military clothing on that day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you carrying any type of military weapon on that day?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see any military equipment or large, military vehicles in

12 the immediate vicinity on that day?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know if Edin was a soldier at that time period, on the day

15 he was shot?

16 A. No, he wasn't.

17 Q. Was he wearing any piece of military equipment or military uniform

18 on that day?

19 A. No, he wasn't.

20 Q. Was he carrying any type of military weapon at the time he was

21 shot?

22 A. No.

23 Q. With respect to your friend Sejo, was he wearing a military

24 uniform on that day?

25 A. No. None of us had a military uniform or anything military.

Page 3023

1 Q. None of you in your group was carrying a weapon of any kind; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness now be

5 shown the video which has been marked as P3280G.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

7 [Videotape played]

8 "INVESTIGATOR: Would you please point to the building where, to

9 the best of your recollection, the Paradizos restaurant was located at the

10 time that Edin Husovic was shot.

11 Thank you. Would you please indicate the location where, to the

12 best of your recollection, you were at the time that Edin Husovic was

13 shot.

14 Would you please show me where, to the best of your recollection,

15 Edin Husovic was standing and in the direction he was standing at the time

16 that he was shot.

17 I will now mark this spot with a -- with yellow spray paint and

18 the figure 'X.'"


20 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And to the best of your recollection, did you comply with the

23 instructions of the investigator during the course of the filming of that

24 videotape?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3024

1 Q. And to the best of your recollection, does that videotape

2 accurately reflect the location where Edin was on the day you were with

3 him and that he was shot?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness now be

6 shown the 360 degree panoramic photo which is P3279F.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, I would ask you to now look at the screen in

10 front of you. Do you recognise what you see in front of you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what that is that you're

13 looking at?

14 A. Yes. I am looking at the spot where Edin was wounded. On the

15 right-hand side is the pizza parlour where we were, and then over there

16 are the buildings across the Miljacka River opposite us.

17 Q. For the record, can you please describe the structure where the

18 pizzeria is located. What type of building is that? What do you see of

19 that building in this photograph?

20 A. This shop is made of glass. The walls are made of glass. And

21 only the roof -- the roof is a slab.

22 Q. Directly in the centre of the photograph is what appears to be a

23 street or a road. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know the name of that road or street?

Page 3025

1 A. This is Dzemala Bijedica Street.

2 Q. Now, past the street, there appears to be an area covered in grass

3 and then several rather tall buildings. Do you know what those buildings

4 are?

5 A. Yes, I do. These are civilian buildings.

6 Q. Are they apartment blocks?

7 A. Yes, apartments.

8 Q. The pizzeria is located on which side of the confrontation line?

9 A. On the Bosnian side.

10 Q. The apartment blocks that you just described that are visible in

11 the centre of this photograph, on which side of the confrontation line are

12 those apartment blocks?

13 A. On the Bosnian side.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I ask that the photograph, please, be zoomed in.

15 Little bit further, please, and a little bit panned to the right, please.

16 That's fine. Stop. Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, between the apartment blocks - and for the

18 record, we're now looking at the three apartment blocks - there would seem

19 to be some ridges or a hill in the background. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I can see.

21 Q. Do you recognise what that hill or ridge is that's depicted in

22 this photograph?

23 A. That is Hrasno Brdo.

24 Q. And which army controlled that area?

25 A. The aggressors.

Page 3026

1 Q. That would be the army of the VRS. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, approximately how far is that hill or ridge from the

4 pizzeria, if you know?

5 A. It's about 2 kilometres, perhaps a little less. Some 2

6 kilometres.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. MUNDIS: We can now turn the video off.

9 Q. Once Edin was released from the hospital, do you recall the last

10 time that you saw him, the most recent time that you saw him?

11 A. About three years ago, two or three years ago. It's probably more

12 like three years ago that I saw him.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Abdurahmanovic.

14 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

15 time, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Defence is ready for the

18 cross-examination?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, before you proceed, I'd just like to

21 give you some guidance that's not especially for cross-examining, but you

22 raised a question on whether the Prosecution could be more precise as far

23 as the time frame was concerned earlier. It may be of some guidance for

24 you that whenever a question might create confusion as far as the time is

25 concerned, so we're talking about confrontation lines during periods that

Page 3027












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3028

1 could create confusion, it could make the answers also ambiguous.

2 Since the witness was testifying about a single incident, the

3 question when this incident actually happened, it's not necessary to put

4 that question in the beginning of the questioning on the incident to the

5 witness. If you would have had reasons to believe that there might have

6 been two similar incidents, then, of course, your objection would be

7 totally justified. But since that was at least not the basis for your

8 objection, that's the reason why I allowed the Prosecution to continue the

9 questioning.

10 So if we are talking about time frames, it's always done when

11 there's a risk for confusion and ambiguous answers. Please proceed with

12 your cross-examination.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

14 will be paying attention, and I believe that we will understand why I had

15 made this remark earlier. And I will demonstrate it, I hope, at least.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. Thank you for coming.

18 Thank you for the clarity of your answers that you have given and that you

19 will hopefully give me when I ask the questions now.

20 During which period were you in the army? Could you specify that?

21 A. Until Dayton was signed.

22 Q. I understand the end, but when did you start?

23 A. I was mobilised in 1992.

24 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. As far as I can remember,

25 that was in November 1995 that Dayton was signed. Is that correct?

Page 3029

1 A. When it was signed and -- when it was signed, then we were

2 released from the army.

3 Q. You do not remember, sir, when you were released from the army, do

4 you?

5 A. I don't know. When Dayton was signed, we were then released.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer. But could I then assume that you were

7 in the army throughout the war. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, you didn't tell us, I believe, whether you were

10 wearing a uniform in the beginning of the war.

11 A. On that day, I was not wearing a uniform. I did say that.

12 Q. That was not my question, sir. I'm going to rephrase it. I'm

13 going to ask you it again. Have you understood it, or have you not

14 understood the question?

15 A. You can ask the question.

16 Q. My question was the following: Did you have a uniform at the

17 beginning of the war? Yes or no.

18 A. No. I did not have a uniform for two years or longer.

19 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. So I can conclude that the

20 army did not issue you with a uniform during the first two or three years

21 of the war. Is that correct?

22 A. Not that it did not issue it; it's just we didn't have any.

23 Q. That's what I was saying. The soldiers did not wear uniforms.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, would one be able to tell you

Page 3030

1 apart from others if you were not wearing a uniform, tell you apart as a

2 soldier?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis. I'm sorry. I was just looking at my

4 screen.

5 MR. MUNDIS: It's okay, Mr. President. I would object to this

6 question. It calls for speculation on behalf of the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just...

8 [Trial Chamber confers].

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just rereading on my screen the answer. The

10 objection is denied. You may proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, could you answer the question?

13 A. He was shooting at the civilians. We were not wearing a uniform.

14 Q. Witness, that was not my question. I did not ask you whether

15 civilians were targeted. My question, I believe, was very clear. What

16 was -- was it possible to -- visually, to tell apart a civilian from a

17 soldier, a civilian who is not dressed as a soldier from a soldier who is

18 dressed as a civilian?

19 A. I don't understand the question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdurahmanovic, perhaps I could help you. You

21 told the Court that for a rather long period of time, although being in

22 the military, you did not wear a uniform. The question was how someone

23 could see, since you were not wearing a uniform, whether you were civilian

24 or military.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we were on duty, I had clothes

Page 3031

1 that I was going to the line in. This was a civilian jacket, and I had

2 insignia on it, the insignia of the BH army on it. When I got off duty,

3 then I would change my clothes. I would leave my jacket and my old jeans,

4 and I would put new clothes on.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, could you tell us what was the size of the insignia that you

8 just told us about?

9 A. About that size, it's -- it was a coat of arms. We would wear it

10 either on our shoulders or on the chest.

11 Q. Witness, you said you could not remember the date of the incident,

12 but that you were certain that there was no exchange of fire on that day;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, do you read English?

16 A. No.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. President, we will

18 need the help of the interpreters once again. I'm going to submit a

19 number of documents to the witness that are also -- that originate also

20 from the UNPROFOR, and we know that these documents cannot have their

21 source contested. They are of the same kind of documents as those that we

22 looked at last week.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have copies for the translators?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are enough copies to go

25 around.

Page 3032

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would have the same

3 objection that we had when this procedure was used last week. It's our

4 view that a foundation needs to be laid and we need to ascertain whether

5 or not this witness is familiar with UNPROFOR SIT reports.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know what questions will be about these

7 documents. So I would say we first proceed until we come at a point where

8 you think that the question suggested a type of knowledge which cannot be

9 expected from this witness.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, I will ask

11 you questions that are not directly related to these documents, just to

12 gain time.

13 May I continue, Mr. President?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, if we bear in mind the relatively small size of Sarajevo,

17 when shots were fired from a relative distance, were you able to hear

18 them?

19 A. We could hear artillery, yes.

20 Q. You mean artillery -- that means mortar, I believe?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I believe that you will have

23 before you a document.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

25 witness has -- is able to see this document. If that is not the case, I

Page 3033

1 will -- I will ask if the interpreters can help with this, and I'm sure

2 that it will go very well. Thank you very much in advance. For the

3 transcript, this is a document which is reference number ERN 91977, for

4 the -- for page number 2 that we will have a look at, and then of course,

5 76, ending -- ERN number ending with 76 for the page 1.

6 Q. Witness, I will now quote you a sentence that will be translated

7 to you and then I will ask a question. This is what the military

8 observers are saying. For the interpreters, I'm quoting page 2, item 2,

9 1, [In English] "The town reported people on the [microphone not

10 activated] side at 100315 hours," I think, "three mortar rounds fell close

11 to the PTT building. No damage reported. Situation on Igman is

12 relatively stable." [Interpretation] Could we perhaps have this

13 translated?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the interpreter [microphone not activated] --

15 You want to start at the "The town reported"?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe this was interpreted

17 at the same time. I'm not sure whether that was the case. This is my

18 question. Was this done?

19 Q. Witness, did you hear this? I believe I am being told that that

20 was the case.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Mundis?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, it's not clear from the question what

23 the time frame is that my learned colleague is referring to or the date.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the only thing until now what he did is to read

25 a part of a document, as far as I understand, and -- if he, for example,

Page 3034

1 check on whether the witness has written it himself but the date is not

2 yet in play, I would say, so therefore please continue with the -- but the

3 first thing I would like to know is when Mr. Piletta-Zanin read the

4 English text of page 2, was it immediately translated, and could you

5 follow it in your language, Mr. Abdurahmanovic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. So I have just read to you a text from which number of things can

10 be seen, that there was a -- there was a number of mortar shells fired on

11 the city of Sarajevo, that is on the PTT building. Sir, are you still

12 certain that on the day of the attack, there were no -- there was no

13 artillery fire, mortar fire? And in order to be absolutely precise, we

14 are talking about the 10th of January, 1994.

15 A. There was no shooting in Cengic Vila, that's what I said. And if

16 there was any other shooting or fire, but, for instance, if it was

17 downtown, I couldn't have heard it because this is maybe seven, eight

18 kilometres.

19 Q. Witness, what is the distance between the PTT building and the

20 neighbourhood of Cengic Vila?

21 A. Which PTT building? Do you mean the main post office building in

22 Sarajevo?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Possibly 5 or 6 kilometres.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will tender,

Page 3035

1 if we are allowed, this document which refers to another question that I'm

2 going to ask you.

3 Q. At least 120 shells that were fired on that day, and mortars.

4 And, Witness, you are telling me that you did not hear anything?

5 A. We did not hear anything.

6 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are we talking of January

8 or the summer of 1994?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This should be the 10th of

10 January, 1994, but we will check.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Check. I think that --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The dates that we have coming

13 from the Prosecution are the 10th of January, 1994.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: On page 83, line 16 or so, I think that the

15 witness spoke about summertime. Let me check.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, do check

17 because that's the reason why I was asking about the dates.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't know which is the date. The witness

19 said summertime. You are talking about January. That's wintertime. So I

20 am a little bit confused.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

22 the Defence is aware of the fact there are a number of different seasons,

23 and we will have a check. But I believe that the incident we are talking

24 about is dated the 10th of January, 1994, in the documents that are coming

25 from the Registry itself, because I have here a Registry number. So if we

Page 3036

1 are talking about the incident number 19, but it is true that the

2 numbering of the incidents having changed --

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, I was not aware of the date of

4 January for this incident.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you for drawing

6 our attention to it.

7 Mr. President, I will proceed.

8 Q. Witness, when you were in service in the army, did you have a

9 weapon?

10 A. I did. When I would go to the position, to the line, I would then

11 be given a rifle -- I would then be given a weapon.

12 Q. When you left your weapon in the trenches or on the line, was this

13 weapon used by others?

14 A. Yes, it would be taken over by others. The next shift would take

15 it over.

16 Q. I am coming back to the question of the trenches. You said you

17 knew the front lines very well. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, I do know where the front lines were, where the lines were.

19 I knew who held what.

20 Q. Witness, were these front lines also present by the fact that

21 there were trenches there?

22 A. No. No, we knew that Hrasno Brdo was held by them. The actual

23 height of the hill and the houses around, that meant they held it. And we

24 were just below.

25 Q. But were there trenches there?

Page 3037

1 A. That depends where and how. There were sometimes trenches.

2 Q. As far as you know, and to your recollection, do you know where

3 these trenches were?

4 A. Yes, there were trenches in Nedzarici, for instance. And then on

5 the Zuc hill, there were trenches. On the Stup hill out of Sarajevo.

6 Then there were towards Trebevic, Mount Trebevic. That's where they were.

7 Q. Is that all? Were there other locations where there were

8 trenches?

9 A. All around Sarajevo. Yes, somewhere there would be a trench and

10 somewhere there wouldn't be a trench.

11 Q. When you say "all around Sarajevo," Witness, do you mean that this

12 was practically all around the city itself?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Could you tell us to which

15 brigade you belonged throughout the war?

16 A. To the 102nd.

17 Q. What you mean, that was the 102nd motorised brigade?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I see you are perfectly informed. Thank you.

20 And where was the headquarters or where was the general staff of

21 the 102 motorised brigade?

22 A. In Zica. It's a company at Alipasino.

23 Q. Can you tell us where in Alipasino? Would you be able to show us

24 on the map where the headquarters of the 102nd motorised was?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask the

Page 3038












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3039

1 usher to find a neutral map, if we still have copies which are unmarked of

2 the map.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it's up to you to tender whatever

4 neutral map. It's not a matter of inviting the Registry. But let's try

5 to see how we can solve your problem, but we can't rely upon maps that

6 have already been admitted into evidence because we can't change them any

7 more. But perhaps there would be one way or another to find out.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you in advance.

9 The number of the map is 3644. And it should be a virgin map, a

10 map without any markings.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you refer to the big black and white map? Yes,

12 but of course we have no -- we could show it to the witness. But if you

13 have no other copies, it could not then be marked.

14 So what is your intention?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd just like to confer with

16 my colleague, please, five seconds.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

19 all that we can do is to do it this way: We shall put this map on the

20 ELMO, on the monitor. We shall ask the witness to point at the location

21 of the headquarters, and we shall then orally describe -- describe orally

22 for the transcript the location which he has pointed at. We do have a

23 map, but it is already marked. But what is important for us is not the

24 exhibit itself; it's just the location.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then use this black and white big map

Page 3040

1 or, if you're not going to tender it into evidence, perhaps you could use,

2 because it's more clear, if the location you're looking for is on this

3 map, perhaps the map that has been admitted into evidence, P3100.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very good. Very good. Yes,

5 that will be fine.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Relatively much detail.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, to your right, you can see a map which I hope is useful.

9 Will you please have a look at it, and with the pointer which you should

10 also have somewhere at your disposal - that's it - will you please

11 point -- perhaps we could blow up this image.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we have a zoom, please.

14 THE WITNESS: Here it is. Here it is. That's Zica.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. For the transcript, we can say that the witness is pointing at an

17 area which is to the right of a rectangle which is to the left on the map,

18 so slightly to the right of it. And it is after also to the right from

19 the words "Alipasin Most". So thank you, Witness. This is where the

20 headquarters of the 102nd motorised brigade was?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Witness, can you now, in relation to this brigade -- no, no, no, I

23 withdraw. How strong was the brigade, more or less?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Well, but roughly an order of magnitude, a few hundred, a few

Page 3041

1 thousand?

2 A. A few hundred.

3 Q. Witness, can you now point, please, at the location of the

4 barracks; that is, the places where soldiers could sleep. I mean members

5 of your brigade.

6 A. But we didn't sleep in barracks. That is not where we slept. We

7 slept either on the front line or at home. You spent four days on the

8 front line, and then you have four days off and you're at home.

9 Q. But you, personally. So at times you slept on the front line and

10 at times you slept at home. Am I interpreting your words right?

11 A. Yes, you are.

12 Q. And what were the facilities at the front line allowing the

13 soldiers to sleep?

14 A. Old houses, derelict houses. A house which is on the front line,

15 that is where you sleep.

16 Q. Witness, do I understand you well, if I say that soldiers on the

17 front line slept in private houses; is that it?

18 A. Private.

19 Q. But you used the word old houses, "stari kuce." Do I take it to

20 mean private houses, old private houses?

21 A. Old private houses. Nobody living in it so we go in and sleep

22 there, all of us.

23 Q. Witness, we are talking about residential houses, about --

24 A. That is houses which were inhabited previously.

25 Q. Excuse me, I'm talking about houses in which people lived

Page 3042

1 earlier.

2 A. Yes, earlier. Those were residential houses, houses in which

3 people lived.

4 Q. Witness, on the front line, to your knowledge, did your army also

5 have any heavy weaponry?

6 A. Oh, no, no way.

7 Q. I'm not talking about tanks. I'm talking, generally speaking,

8 about heavy weaponry.

9 A. We had nothing.

10 Q. Witness, are you telling me that your army did not have any heavy

11 weapons in its possession? Is that how I should understand your answer?

12 A. Well, there would be a mortar here and there, an old one.

13 Q. Well, so we are now making some progress. Witness, did you also

14 know, the rocket launchers, were they used in correlation with the private

15 vehicles? That is, were they used with the assistance of Golfs, that is

16 Volkswagen Golfs? That is, the launchers would be mounted on Golf cars so

17 that they could be moved and fired? Are you aware of that?

18 A. No. I'm not. No. I know we never had any rocket launchers.

19 Q. My last question, Witness: Do you know if there were batteries

20 which would be functioning on the side of your army or within the city?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. My last question: Can you please try to remember when did the --

23 this incident that you told us about come to pass, that you talked to us

24 -- told us about when you were examined by the Prosecution. Was it

25 summer or was it wintertime?

Page 3043

1 A. I think it was summertime because it was a very nice day. It was

2 sunny. It was not cold. We were wearing T-shirts.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

4 do not have any further questions. But, of course, we shall be tendering

5 the two pages which I mentioned earlier.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that.

7 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:


12 Q. Mr. Abdurahmanovic, in response to a question from my learned

13 colleague, you mentioned that you had insignias which you placed on your

14 jacket. Do you remember saying that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you obtain these insignias? Where did you get them from?

17 A. We were given them in our unit as the army was being formed. We

18 were issued with them, so that we would have something that would show

19 that we were the army.

20 Q. Do you know if everyone in your unit was issued such an insignia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know if such insignias were issued to other units of the

23 ABiH, at least in the city of Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes. It was an honour for us to wear them.

25 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was a ceasefire in effect on

Page 3044

1 the day that Edin was shot?

2 A. I do not remember. I do not know if there was any ceasefire, but

3 I know it was calm, not a shot could be heard, or anything else.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Abdurahmanovic.

5 No further questions, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

7 Judge Nieto-Navia will now question you now.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you please describe for us the insignia,

10 the size and everything on the insignias?

11 A. Well, it was about that big, Bosnian coat of arms with lilies.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: For the transcript, I'm sorry, we need the

13 size. Could you say how many square centimetres or something like that?

14 A. Well, about ten -- ten by six or seven centimetres, just with --

15 ten by six, ten by seven, roughly, and it said "BH Army," and there was

16 the coat of arms with lilies.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi?

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'd nevertheless like to ask you

20 two short questions. The first one has to do with what you said, namely,

21 that you had met your friend during the war. Was he also a military man,

22 a soldier? Was he a soldier?

23 A. No. He was a child. He was 15 or 16.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But then if I understand you

25 well, you said, "I met this friend, we struck friendship during the war."

Page 3045

1 A. Why, yes, because he lived near that shop.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. And the car which came to

3 take your friend away, do you remember what make was it -- it was?

4 A. Golf, a Golf.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was a Golf?

6 A. That's right.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The same make as the one that the

8 Defence counsel had in mind when he asked you if those Golf cars were used

9 to mount launchers on them? Would that be the same make?

10 A. Well, he mentioned a Golf, but I don't know that Golf which

11 carried the launchers. I never saw that. I mean, can't be a Golf.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And that car was near the place

13 of the incident?

14 A. Well, it was my friend's, and it was parked right there in front

15 of the shop.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And it was just one bullet that

17 was fired or were there several?

18 A. Just one bullet.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no more questions for you,

21 Mr. Abdurahmanovic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

22 The Hague. It's quite a journey for you. This Court only can take

23 decisions if this Court is well informed about what happened at the time

24 of the charges. Answering the questions of the Prosecution and the

25 Defence helps this Court to take the decisions which it will have to

Page 3046

1 take. I thank you very much for coming to this strange environment for

2 you, and I wish you a good journey home.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you lead the witness out of the

5 courtroom?

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, we have, I think, some documents or

8 at least objects to be admitted into evidence. First of all the video.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The video is P3280G.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And then I think we have the 360 degree electronic

11 photographs.


13 JUDGE ORIE: Was it "I" or was it --

14 MR. MUNDIS: I believe it's "F," Madam Registrar.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did write down "F" as well.


17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I believe we have the document tendered by

18 the -- by the Defence which is not prenumbered but it would then get

19 number.


21 JUDGE ORIE: D34. Mr. Mundis?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution would object to the admission of this

23 document, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And for what reasons?

25 MR. MUNDIS: On the grounds that, if I understand my learned

Page 3047

1 colleague correctly, he's introducing this as a means of impeaching the

2 witness with respect to whether or not he recalled hearing any shells

3 being fired on the day in question. I would draw the Trial Chamber's

4 attention to the operative paragraph that Mr. Piletta-Zanin read out.

5 It's unclear from that in which direction the shells were fired, whether

6 they were incoming or outgoing shells. It's a bit unclear as to the

7 actual date that this document refers to, the operative sentence reading

8 "at 10 0315 HRS," which could be the 10th of January at 0315 in the

9 morning. And certainly the witness was not referring to that time

10 period. Also, on the grounds again that the witness had never seen this

11 document and there was, in our opinion, no proper foundation laid with

12 respect to this document.

13 Those would be our objections, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I thought

16 that this was -- that the last time we agreed on this document, and this

17 is precisely -- is exactly the same document. It covers the period that

18 we are interested in, and that is the 10th of January, 1994. And this is

19 the first minutes of that day up to 23 hours, again, until the very last

20 minute of that one day. And that the same thing is -- and rather, just

21 one mortar. Even if there was just one shot fired from a mortar, that

22 would be enough to bring into question the testimony. And I do not think

23 that UNPROFOR could be called anything but completely impartial. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I suggest that we take this issue

Page 3048

1 on the admission of the document tomorrow. Perhaps one question in order

2 to -- as far as I can see it, because I do understand -- apart from the

3 confusion about the date of the incident, as far as I see, the mortar

4 rounds you quoted are situated at a time. As far as I understand it, it's

5 3.15 in the morning. If someone says they didn't hear anything in the day

6 and just in the beginning of the night, I'm still -- I mean, if you're

7 just concentrating on --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but let me

9 remind you: If we are looking at tendering this page, it is that

10 altogether there were 120 rounds, but it does not say that they all

11 happened at 3.15. It covers the whole day, as we can see from the first

12 page, and that is why we wish both pages to be annexed and tendered.

13 Evidently, we had one incident with two shots at the PTT building -- no,

14 excuse me, three, three mortar shots at 3.15 in the morning. As for the

15 remaining 120 -- or rather, 117, I suppose they are spaced out over the

16 whole day, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I must admit to you that I'm

18 a bit uncertain about what part exactly has been read to the witness, and

19 that might be of major importance. I mean, if you read also the 120, but

20 I'm not quite sure about that. Therefore, I have to find the exact place

21 where you did read, if anyone could be of any assistance so that at least

22 it's clear.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, we should try to find it

24 in the French transcript and see whether we can succeed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I can't find the exact...

Page 3049












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Page 3050

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I can

2 help, with your leave. In my English transcript - I'll try to be very

3 precise - it is page 96, 96, line 6.


5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So page 96, line 6, and it

6 begins, "At least 120 shells" -- this is a translation, but that is what I

7 said, Mr. President. Have you found it?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I found it. Let's just see quite precisely

9 because we have to decide on the admissibility what exactly -- what you

10 did read to the...

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The passage that I read,

12 Mr. President, was the passage right -- which is under 2A --

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is page 94, line 14.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just found it. Let me just read it. And if

15 you check in the French transcript, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it reads -- and I

16 start at page 94, line 10: "Witness, I will now quote you a sentence that

17 will be translated to you, and then I will ask a question. This is what

18 military observers are saying. For the interpreters, I'm quoting page 2,

19 item 2.1. And then [In English] [Previous translation continued]...

20 Reported people on the side at 10 03.15 hours. I think three mortar

21 rounds fell close to the" -- and then I think it's the PTT building. "No

22 damage reported. Situation on Igman is relatively stable."

23 So that's what you read to the witness. And it was later on, I

24 think that's on page 96, that after the witness had responded to various

25 questions on the issue you quoted, one of the last questions was "Which

Page 3051

1 PTT building?" said the witness. "Do you mean the main post office in

2 Sarajevo?" You said that's what you meant. The answer was then possibly

3 5 or 6 kilometres. And then Mr. Piletta-Zanin: "Mr. President, we will

4 tender if we are allowed this document which refers to another question

5 I'm going to ask you. At least 120 shells were fired that were on that

6 day, and mortars. And, Witness, you are telling me that you did not hear

7 anything." And he said he did not hear anything.

8 So it's in the second part where you are not reading but referring

9 to part of the statement. So I do understand that that's what you say is

10 the relevance, that also the 120 shells which would not have been heard by

11 the witness. And they are not in time located at 3.15 in the morning, but

12 more in general during that day. Do I understand you well?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. As a matter of fact,

14 this is a two-tiered question, and both have to do with this document.

15 And I think it transpires rather clearly what the witness said. We asked

16 the witness what he heard, and he said he did not hear anything.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As I told you, I think we'll have to decide.

18 Three Judges will discuss, and we will give you the decision tomorrow.

19 Is there any other observation to be made on this specific issue?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Just a final observation, Mr. President: I'll rely

21 on what I mentioned earlier, but my learned colleague has said that the

22 other 117 rounds could have come evenly spaced throughout the day. It's

23 equally plausible that they all could have come in a five-minute period

24 0400 in the morning.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So we are more or less discussing the probative value

Page 3052

1 of the --

2 MR. MUNDIS: Exactly.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, probative value and admission are two

4 different issues, but we'll consider the matter and we'll decide tomorrow

5 on the admission into evidence of this document.

6 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one last

8 comment: The Defence has never received any information concerning the

9 manner in which the 360-degree computer image was produced, and we should

10 like to know how reliable, how credible, and so on and so forth this image

11 is. And I believe that some day or other, not now, but the Prosecutor

12 should give us some more information as to that. Thank you very much in

13 advance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I would -- we'll consider that. I do understand that

15 the first time, we had some explanation as far as the creation of both the

16 video and the photos were concerned, if I am -- if my recollection is

17 correct.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Your recollection is, indeed, correct,

19 Mr. President. And the Prosecution is intending on calling the witness

20 who actually produced both the video -- or did the editing on the videos

21 and on the 360 photos for the benefit of the Trial Chamber. And of

22 course, he will be able to answer the questions of the Defence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Mundis.

24 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, same

25 courtroom.

Page 3053

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 4.19 p.m., to be reconvened on

3 Tuesday, the 5th day of February, 2002,

4 at 9.00 a.m.