1 Tuesday, 5 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 The Chamber still had to give a decision on the admissibility of

11 document prenumbered D34, which, as we can see, is a UNPROFOR report. The

12 document is admitted into evidence. It at least could have some relevance

13 as to the intensity of fighting, firing, at the day -- at a day where the

14 witness has testified that on the day of the incident he testified about

15 that he did not hear any firing. At the same time, having admitted the

16 document into evidence, the Chamber noted that while questioning the

17 witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin confronted the witness with the fact - or at

18 least as he stated it as a fact from this document - that at least 120

19 shells were fired, and mortars. That's literally what he confronted the

20 witness with, while the document says "approximately 120 mixed impact."

21 Whether these are shells or mortars, that's, of course, a different

22 issue. So despite the imprecision in confronting the witness with the

23 content of the document, nevertheless we have some relevance, and of

24 course this Chamber does not express itself on this moment on the

25 probative value, the degree of probative value.

1 Then I think the Prosecution could call its next witness.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness is Akif

3 Mukanovic, and his evidence is relevant to scheduled sniping incident

4 number 20.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

6 Would you please bring the witness into the courtroom, Mr. Usher.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

9 understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom, Mr. Mukanovic. The Rules

12 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration prior

13 to examination as a witness. The text of this declaration will be given

14 to you by the usher, and I invite you to make that declaration now.

15 WITNESS: AKIF MUKANOVIC

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Mukanovic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mukanovic, you will first be examined by

22 Mr. Ierace or Mr. Mundis -- Mr. Ierace, of the Prosecution. The

23 Prosecution has called you as a witness to The Hague.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

2 Q. Sir, would you please give your full name for the record.

3 A. Akif Mukanovic.

4 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before the conflict broke out, what was your occupation?

7 A. I was a maintenance man for the heating system.

8 Q. What was your address when the conflict broke out?

9 A. During the conflict, it was the 27 Juli Obala 89, and later, the

10 name of the street was changed.

11 Q. Did you live at that address throughout that conflict?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1992, who were the members of your immediate family?

14 A. My wife, two children, and myself.

15 Q. Following -- at some stage following the outbreak of the conflict,

16 did your occupation change?

17 A. No. I don't know how you mean. Change how?

18 Q. Did you become a member of the army?

19 A. Later on, yes.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. In April 1993.

22 Q. When did you cease to be a member of the army?

23 A. On the 1st of January, 1996.

24 Q. During the conflict, were you a member of the Bosnian government

25 army known as the ABiH?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In January of 1994, who was living with you at your residence?

3 A. Myself, my wife, and our two children.

4 Q. At that stage in January of 1994, how old were your children?

5 A. My daughter was 17 at the time, and my son was 15 years old.

6 Q. Did your wife work?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Had your wife ever worked apart from her household duties?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What was the nature of your residence? Was it a house, an

11 apartment block, or something else?

12 A. We lived in an apartment block which was four stories high, and we

13 occupied the first floor. We lived in an apartment on the first floor.

14 Q. Approximately how far was your apartment block from the

15 confrontation lines in January of 1994?

16 A. About 800 metres as the crow flies.

17 Q. Did any rooms of your apartment face the confrontation lines?

18 A. My whole apartment and all the rooms in it were facing the front.

19 Q. When you say "facing the front," do you mean facing the

20 confrontation lines, that is, the direction of the confrontation lines?

21 A. Yes. Yes, the confrontation lines.

22 Q. Before January 1994, had there been any incidents during the armed

23 conflict when bullets had entered your apartment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion before January

1 1994?

2 A. A number of occasions, many occasions.

3 Q. By January 1994, had you and your family taken any steps to

4 protect yourselves from fire into your apartment?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did those steps include taking measures to minimise opportunities

7 for you and your family to be seen at night from the direction of the

8 confrontation line?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What would you do at night, at night-time, in that regard?

11 A. At night, we usually -- in addition to the blinds, we would put up

12 blankets to make the rooms as dark as possible. So blinds and blankets.

13 Q. You said earlier that every room in your apartment faced the

14 direction of the confrontation lines. Did those rooms include the

15 kitchen?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the dining-room?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Indeed, did the dining-room have a window facing towards the

20 direction of the confrontation lines?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you stood or sat in your dining-room and looked through the

23 window, could you, in fact, by January 1994, see territory occupied by the

24 VRS?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You said that you would put up a blanket or blankets at night to

2 darken the rooms. Did that apply to the dining-room usually?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What other covering, if any, did you have on the dining-room

5 window, typically, in January of 1994?

6 A. We had a blind and usually a blanket, the blankets that we were

7 given as assistance, as aid from the UNHCR.

8 Q. What was the shape of the window frame? In other words, was it a

9 sash-type window that you lowered and raised or was it a hinged window

10 that opened outwards or what? In January of 1994.

11 A. Hinge-type windows. Two sides to the window opening on hinges

12 towards the inside of the room.

13 Q. In January of 1994, did each of these sides have glass?

14 A. One side did; the other had sheeting, some sheeting.

15 Q. Which side had the glass, as you stood in the dining-room and

16 looked out?

17 A. The left-hand side, looking outwards from the room.

18 Q. What was the nature of the covering on the right-hand side? What

19 material? What type of material was it?

20 A. It was foil sheeting, and we were given that by the UNHCR, too.

21 Q. When you say "foil," what type of material?

22 A. Plastic foil, and it had some strings in it to reinforce it.

23 Q. Can you tell us how thick the plastic was? Was it very thin,

24 thin, reasonably thick, or what?

25 A. It was thin.

1 Q. Was it a type of plastic which usually had another purpose?

2 A. Well, I'd never seen plastic sheeting of that type before until we

3 were given it by the UNHCR.

4 Q. Was it clear plastic or opaque plastic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was it possible to see through the plastic?

7 A. Just the light. You could just see some light coming through, but

8 you couldn't see much, no.

9 Q. You mentioned a blind. What was the blind made of?

10 A. It was the standard type of cotton blind.

11 Q. Was it intact or did it have any tears or holes in it, in January

12 of 1994?

13 A. There were holes in it, yes.

14 Q. How did they come to be there?

15 A. From the bullets, the shrapnel, all sorts of things.

16 Q. On the day of the 11th of January, 1994, what did you do?

17 A. I was in my company, working. I was doing some work that day.

18 Q. When you refer to "company," what do you mean?

19 A. The company where I worked, where I work today and where I worked

20 before.

21 Q. Do you mean by that your work as a building maintenance worker?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What time, approximately, did you arrive home after that work?

24 A. About 7.00 in the evening.

25 Q. Who was there when you arrived home?

1 A. My wife, my children, and my neighbour, Josip Soldo, and they were

2 sitting in the dining-room at the table.

3 Q. Did any members of that group seated at the table in your

4 dining-room have their backs to the window?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who?

7 A. My wife and my daughter, who was sitting next to my wife. They

8 had their backs turned towards the window.

9 Q. Did you notice anything about the window?

10 A. I noticed that they had not placed the blanket over the blind, and

11 I criticised them for not doing so.

12 Q. Did your apartment have electricity on that day?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was there any light source in the dining-room when you arrived

15 home?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was that?

18 A. There was a candle on the table.

19 Q. After you criticised them, did they respond? Did they say

20 anything to you, anyone present?

21 A. Well, yes. My wife said, "Let's drink our coffee. Let's have a

22 cup of coffee and we'll put the blanket up after that."

23 Q. Having regard to the time of the year, January 1994, and the time

24 that you arrived home, about 7.00 in the evening, I take it it was dark

25 outside?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After your wife said those words to you, what then happened?

3 A. She -- rather, my daughter made some coffee, put it on the table,

4 and we started drinking our coffee.

5 Q. And after that?

6 A. After that, there was a shot, and what happened, happened. We

7 weren't able to put up the blankets any more until I had come back from

8 the hospital.

9 Q. When you say there was a shot, did you actually hear the sound of

10 a gun being fired?

11 A. No. I ...

12 Q. How did you realise that there had been a shot?

13 A. We felt a bang in the room. We all jumped up and looked at each

14 other, wondering what had happened.

15 Q. Please go on.

16 A. And then it was suddenly quiet. There wasn't any shooting, there

17 wasn't any fighting, or anything like that. There was just this bang, and

18 we all jumped up. My son escaped, jumped out. My daughter jumped up. I

19 was wondering and looking around to see where the bang had come from. And

20 my wife at that point just got up and said, "I'm finished." She took a

21 step forward, went pale, and as she had taken this step, she went all pale

22 and sunk to the floor. I called my neighbours. We had a car which was

23 always on the ready, and we used the car to transport her to the hospital,

24 but there was no help for her.

25 Q. When you say there was no help for her, what happened to her?

1 A. The bullet had hit her in her right shoulder blade and cut through

2 the aorta and lodged -- and remained lodged in the body.

3 Q. When did she die?

4 A. I'm not quite sure, but probably on the way to the hospital,

5 because she gave no signs of life. She had had an internal haemorrhage

6 and there was no helping her. They couldn't save her.

7 Q. On what date was she buried?

8 A. The funeral was two days later, on the 13th of January, in the

9 evening hours, at night, which was customary in Sarajevo, to have burials

10 after dark.

11 Q. Whereabouts was she buried?

12 A. At the stadium, the auxiliary stadium Kosevo.

13 Q. In a cemetery?

14 A. There wasn't a cemetery before, but during the war it became a

15 cemetery.

16 Q. What was it before the war?

17 A. It was an auxiliary playing field belonging to the Kosevo stadium.

18 Q. Why were funerals conducted at night in Sarajevo at that stage?

19 A. Because there would be shooting at funerals, too. So it was safer

20 at night.

21 Q. I take you back to your dining-room at the time that you heard a

22 shot. What exactly did you hear?

23 A. I heard that something hit. You know, it was like a hit. I don't

24 know how to explain it to you. I just heard this impact, this hitting

25 impact in the premises and as if there was some glass breaking, but that

1 was a very slight noise. I don't know how to explain it to you. It was

2 all split second -- it all took place in a split second.

3 Q. You say that it was as if there was some glass breaking. Did you

4 inspect at a later point --

5 A. Yes, a little bit.

6 Q. Did you inspect, at a later point, the window, in particular the

7 left-hand side of the window that had glass?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you notice anything about the condition of the glass?

10 A. Yes. Later on, I examined it and noticed that at the bottom of

11 the window, through the wooden frame, that the wooden frame had been split

12 where the bullet had entered which killed my wife. And I noticed, as that

13 was the only pane of glass that was left standing in the apartment, that

14 that windowpane had been pierced, too. So I think that in fact two

15 bullets had passed through on the occasion.

16 Q. You've told us that one of the bullets lodged in the body of your

17 wife. Did you discover anything about the path of the second bullet?

18 A. The second bullet, as far as I was able to notice as a layman, I

19 think it came through the glass and through the dining-room wall and

20 lodged in the water -- in the door of the corridor outside, the hallway

21 outside the apartment, the stairway.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President and Your Honours, at this stage I ask

23 that the video for this incident be played. I think that is part of --

24 rather, that is Exhibit 3280.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

1 [Videotape played]

2 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please take up the position where,

3 to the best of your recollection, your wife was located when she was

4 shot?

5 MR. MUKANOVIC: [Complies]

6 THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please point to the location where,

7 to the best of your recollection, the bullet came into the apartment? And

8 if I may clarify my question, my instruction: The bullet which hit your

9 wife, where that bullet came into the apartment. Thank you.

10 MR. MUKANOVIC: [Complies]

11 THE INVESTIGATOR: Using this felt pen, could you please point to

12 the spot where, to the best of your recollection, the second bullet came

13 into the apartment after your wife was shot.

14 MR. MUKANOVIC: [Complies]

15 THE INVESTIGATOR: Thank you.

16 MR. MUKANOVIC: That's more or less.

17 THE INVESTIGATOR: Now, could you please mark or point to the spot

18 on the wall where, to the best of your recollection, the second bullet

19 passed through the interior wall. You might have to use this.

20 MR. MUKANOVIC: [Complies]

21 THE INVESTIGATOR: If you can please hold your finger in that

22 spot, I will now measure that distance from the floor using a standard

23 centimetre measuring tape. I mark it as 97 centimetres. And I mark it as

24 5.5 centimetres from the door frame. Thank you.

25 Could you please point to the spot where, to the best of your

1 recollection, that second bullet hit the inside of your apartment door.

2 MR. MUKANOVIC: [Complies]

3 THE INVESTIGATOR: Thank you very much."

4 MR. IERACE:

5 Q. Mr. Mukanovic, was that -- did you recognise yourself in that

6 video?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you comply with the requests of the investigator truthfully

9 and to the best of your recollection?

10 A. Yes, I did. But the only thing I can say is that the marking on

11 the glass, because things have changed, I said it could only be slightly

12 lower or perhaps a little to the left. It was an approximate marking. On

13 the door frame, you can still see the ridge that the bullet had made, and

14 perhaps on the wall you can feel where the bullet impacted. But

15 otherwise, it could be a centimetre lower perhaps.

16 Q. Was the video filmed in September of last year, that is the year

17 2001?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Between the time that your wife died and the making of the video

20 film, had your apartment been renovated?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In the video, we could see some items of furniture in the

23 dining-room, in particular some chairs under the window and a table in

24 front of the chairs. How did the -- I withdraw that. Was there any

25 difference in the furniture as we saw it in the video and the furniture at

1 the time that your wife died?

2 A. No. It's the same furniture. The same table; the same chairs.

3 It's all the same.

4 Q. Was there any difference in the position of those items of

5 furniture in the dining-room as they appeared in the video compared to the

6 time that your wife was shot?

7 A. No. It's -- it was the same.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown the

9 following exhibits, photographs P3237 through to P3242. Perhaps the first

10 of those photographs could be placed on the -- placed firstly in front of

11 the witness. Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Mukanovic, have you made three statements with the assistance

13 of investigators from the Prosecutor's office at the Tribunal?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was one of those statements signed by you on the 27th of June of

16 last year?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. At the time that you made your statement, did you also look at

19 some photographs and black-and-white photocopies of the photographs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The original photographs, as they appeared before you, were in

22 colour?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you place the markings on the black-and-white copies with a

25 red pen?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the date that you made those markings with a red pen, did you

3 place your signature and the date on the reverse of each of the

4 photographs, both the colour copies and the black-and-white copies?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Would you please look at photo marked 1A which is Exhibit P3237.

7 Does that show a view from your dining-room looking out the window?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: Perhaps that could be placed -- all right. Could

10 that be placed briefly on the ELMO.

11 Q. Would you please now turn to photograph marked 1B. That's Exhibit

12 P3238.

13 MR. IERACE: Could that photograph be placed on the ELMO.

14 Q. That is the black-and-white version of photograph 1A; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, starting at the bottom left-hand corner of the

18 photograph, I think you've placed a cross on the table, and alongside it,

19 an arrow leading to the letter "A." Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you read the word that you've placed under the letter "A."

22 A. Table.

23 Q. You said in your evidence earlier that the candle was on the

24 table.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you remember approximately where on the table the candle was

2 located at the time your wife was shot?

3 A. It was about somewhere in the centre of the table.

4 Q. Moving up --

5 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but it was standing on the table.

6 Q. All right. Moving up the left-hand side, you've placed a circle

7 on a part of the seat, which doesn't appear in the ELMO because it's dark,

8 and then an arrow going directly to the left.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the letter "D" and the name of your wife; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Moving further up the left-hand side, there is a cross on the

13 windowpane, that is, the left side of the window as one looks out from the

14 dining-room. Would you please read the word that appears under the letter

15 "B" in relation to that cross.

16 A. Glass, pane of glass.

17 Q. Does the cross have any particular significance in terms of its

18 position on the glass?

19 A. No. It just shows that this is a pane of glass.

20 Q. All right. I'll come back to the next entry on the left-hand side

21 shortly, but turning now to the right-hand side, you've placed a circle on

22 the seat under the window, to the right of where your wife was seated as

23 one looks out the window from within, and alongside that circle is the

24 letter "E"; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And underneath the letter "E," is that the name of one of your

2 children?

3 A. Yes, of my daughter.

4 Q. Yes. And does that indicate where she was seated at the time that

5 your wife was shot?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In the same way as "D" indicates where your wife was seated at the

8 time that she was shot?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Towards the top of the right-hand side appears the letter "C," and

11 it refers to a pen marking in the -- on the edge of the window. What is

12 the word which appears under the letter "C"?

13 A. Foil sheeting.

14 Q. All right. And does that indicate the half of the window that was

15 covered in that sheeting by plastic sheeting?

16 A. Yes. Yes. This was the side that was -- the part of the window

17 that was covered with foil.

18 Q. I'll return now to the letter "F." What does the area marked as

19 letter "F" -- what is that area marked with the letter "F"?

20 A. Hrasno Brdo.

21 Q. All right. And on what side of the confrontation line at the time

22 your wife was shot was Hrasno Brdo?

23 A. What do you mean, on which side?

24 Q. Was it on the same side of the confrontation line as where you

25 lived, or on the other side, or in between? I'll withdraw that question.

1 During the armed conflict in Sarajevo, was there a boundary

2 between the opposing armies, a front line?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You will recall that I asked you some questions earlier about

5 where that line was in relation to your apartment.

6 A. It was -- the view was such that from the apartment, we were

7 looking straight at it, the hill.

8 Q. Do you mean by that that the hill was on the other side of the

9 confrontation line, that is, on the side occupied by the VRS?

10 A. Yes. The top of the hill, up to about middle of the hill, was

11 under the control of the Serb army.

12 Q. In whose control was the part of the hill that you have marked

13 with the letter "F" in the photograph?

14 A. The upper part was under the control of the Serb army.

15 Q. And was the lower part under the control of the Bosnian government

16 army?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please now turn to photograph 2A, which is P3239. Does

19 that appear to be a telephoto shot which includes that same part of the

20 hill as viewed from within your dining-room?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the photograph could be placed briefly on the

23 ELMO.

24 Q. Would you please now turn to the black-and-white photocopy of

25 photograph 2A, and that is marked 2B.

1 MR. IERACE: And perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO.

2 Q. You have marked the top of the hill, Hrasno Brdo, in photograph

3 2B; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you read the words which appear -- I withdraw that. Would

6 you read the words that you wrote on that photograph, please.

7 A. Aggressor's army positions, Hrasno Brdo.

8 Q. And again, by "aggressor's army," do you mean the VRS?

9 A. It's the Serb army. The Army of Republika Srpska was the name

10 given to it later. But the terms get mixed up, so I don't know what to

11 call what, when.

12 Q. All right. Would you now look at photograph 3A. By comparing it

13 to photograph 2A, is it apparent that it is a further telephoto shot of

14 the same hill, or at least part of that hill, as viewed from your

15 dining-room window?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. In a similar fashion, did you mark the photocopy of that

18 photograph, which is photograph 3B, so as to indicate the part of the hill

19 that was occupied by the Serb army at the time your wife was shot?

20 MR. IERACE: If 3B could be placed on the ELMO.

21 Q. I'll repeat that question. In relation to the portion of the hill

22 which appears in that photograph, did you mark with the red pen that part

23 which was occupied by the Serb army at the time your wife was shot?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I'd ask that the

1 360-degree photograph be displayed, that is, Exhibit number 3279.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. May I remind you, Mr. Ierace,

3 that in your revised schedule it's three quarters of an hour scheduled for

4 the witness, as far as I see, and ...

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll attempt to move a

6 little faster.

7 Q. Sir, looking at the image in front of you on the computer

8 screen --

9 MR. IERACE: I think there's an objection, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

12 for giving us the floor. We still have the same problem. I believe that

13 I heard yesterday that my learned colleague Mr. Mundis said that he would

14 get us a witness to tell us how these photographs were produced, and I

15 believe that it would be good that we get some kind of technical briefing

16 that would tell us about the quality of these photographs rather than go

17 on, witness by witness, using these photographs. I think that we should

18 have started the other way around. And the Defence is objecting to the

19 photographs.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think we had a general explanation how these

21 photographs were produced, although not in testimony by a witness who

22 produced them. But we were explained, as far as I remember, rather in

23 detail, on how this was produced. Is there any -- is it a matter of

24 formality that you want to have this formally confirmed by a witness, or

25 is there any technical thing you do not understand about these

1 photographs?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

3 I have no competence whatever in technical matters, and I certainly need

4 all the assistance I can get. However, in this particular case, the

5 Defence doesn't know to which extent it can trust these photographs since

6 it has not had a technical briefing, a presentation about these

7 photographs. And I believe that Mr. Mundis proposed to have a witness who

8 would tell us all about this. So it would be good to have that before

9 using these photographs so that we know whether we can reject them or not

10 and before we actually have the witnesses looking at the photographs as

11 shown by the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I remember that prior to the

13 examination of the first witness on a -- one of the scheduled incidents -

14 I remember it was someone who was gardening his plot - it was rather in

15 detail explained to us how this was all created. I do not understand what

16 additional information you expect from a witness who would say, "Well, I

17 did stand on the yellow cross. I ..." Are you interested to know what

18 exactly the lenses were or -- I mean, I try to understand your problem and

19 see what would be added at this moment if we -- if we would get the

20 confirmation of someone who will confirm that it was he who made the

21 computer programme.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We know

23 that nowadays we can use technical equipment to produce virtual pictures.

24 And when we have witnesses who are looking at the photographs, they're not

25 quite sure. So what we would quite like to see is to have a sort of

1 summary and a briefing about how these photographs were produced so that

2 we could have this checked by our own experts, and if there are any

3 technical problems, and at that time we can then look at it in this way.

4 But here, if we take these for granted, these photographs, I don't think

5 that is really on. But it is -- it is technical question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... in this

7 courtroom, as you'll understand.

8 May I ask the Prosecution, since this seems to be a problem for

9 the Defence: Would it be possible - I'm just asking about

10 possibilities - that you would call the witness you had in mind to call

11 later and give all the technical explanations in addition to what you

12 explained to us already, Mr. Ierace?

13 MR. IERACE: Excuse me one moment, Mr. President.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. That could be done. Might

16 I point out that we have taken steps to include the Prosecution [sic] as

17 much as possible in the shooting of the videos and the photographs.

18 Ms. Pilipovic attended the filming of some of the videos in Sarajevo in

19 September of last year. I provided an explanation as to how the videos

20 and photographs were made to her then. I have done so briefly in the

21 opening, and I did so again last Friday week. I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin

22 was not present on that occasion.

23 Mr. President, this is -- or, rather, yesterday, I think, was the

24 first time there has been an objection articulated by the Defence so as to

25 refer to the reliability of the images. I'm happy to accommodate them. I

1 would point out that of course each witness who has come along, who has

2 appeared in the videos and identified themselves and also given evidence

3 in relation to the images which appear in the 360-degree photographs.

4 I have this difficulty: that the witness involved will ultimately

5 give testimony on a number of matters to do with video footage, including

6 the footage which appeared in the opening, as to when that footage was

7 obtained as well as the editing process. It may be that in order to

8 accommodate my friends, his evidence could be given in two stages. That

9 is, we could call him perhaps later this week to give an explanation from

10 the witness box as to the process involved, and then at a later point he

11 could be recalled to give more detailed information, more technical

12 information which we wish to bring from him and evidence as to the means

13 by which we came by the footage used in the opening.

14 So that course would at least equip my friends at this stage,

15 shortly after they first raised the issue, with an explanation in the

16 Trial Chamber as to, in particular, the method by which the photographs

17 were joined together electronically so as to make the 360-degree image.

18 I'll make some inquiries later on today and perhaps -- there's a

19 meeting already arranged between ourselves and the Defence at 2.30 this

20 afternoon. I'll discuss it with them on that occasion and inform the

21 Trial Chamber perhaps tomorrow as to whether we could amend our schedule

22 of witnesses so as to include that witness later this week. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

25 Mr. President. To begin with, I'm not quite sure that I fully understand

1 what my learned friend was saying, but I think he only made a slight slip

2 of the tongue. I'm looking at what Mr. Ierace has said. He said that he

3 was including the "Prosecution" in the shooting as much as possible. It

4 was merely for the sake of precision. It is line 13.

5 And perhaps it would be good if this witness came towards the end

6 of the week so that we could hear it. And we have not had the opportunity

7 to see him. I think that the Defence will be ready for the -- was for the

8 meeting last week, but it was not possible. But here we are. At any

9 rate, we are at the disposal of the Prosecution whenever they want to have

10 a meeting and to describe this video, this editing, and to take stock of

11 the whole procedure that was done. Thank you.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber allows the Prosecution to continue

14 showing the 360-degrees photograph. We'll think about a possible change

15 in the order of calling the witnesses and whether we would suggest you to

16 do so, since I do understand that you would be able to split up the

17 testimony of the witness in two and start with the technical aspects and

18 then only later on have a confirmation of times of obtaining the

19 materials, the video materials, the photo materials, which of course would

20 cover many other incidents as well.

21 The reason why we allow you to continue at this moment is that,

22 apart from a general objection that there has been no opportunity to

23 verify the technique used in producing the material, we did not hear any

24 specific objection as to why there would be something wrong in the

25 production of the materials. But the sooner everyone in this courtroom is

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1 informed about the technical details, the better it might be.

2 May I just ask you: Is this witness available in this country, or

3 should we fly him in from abroad, or have you got no idea?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this witness is probably one of the

5 most convenient witnesses for us to call because he works in the building.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Of course, in calling him at short notice, I won't be

8 able to provide a statement as to what he will say beforehand because that

9 process is continuing --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: -- but I'll do that. Might I, simply while I'm on my

12 feet, also point out that my friend is correct in relation to the

13 reference to "Prosecution."

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was a clear mistake.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll allow you to continue with this 360-degrees

17 photograph, and pay attention to the technical aspects as soon as

18 possible.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

20 Q. Mr. Mukanovic, looking at the image on your screen at the moment,

21 is that the view in one direction from your dining-room window?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Do we see the hill of Hrasno Brdo between two apartment blocks

24 slightly to the left of the centre of the image?

25 A. We do.

1 Q. Slightly to the right of centre, do we see a mosque?

2 A. We do.

3 Q. Apart from the area that you marked on the photographs of the part

4 of Hrasno Brdo which was in the control of the Serb army, was any other

5 part of the image in front of you controlled by the Serb army at the time

6 your wife was shot?

7 A. No. I don't think so.

8 MR. IERACE: Could the image please be panned to the right.

9 Please pause there.

10 Q. Do we see now on the left-hand side of the image the frame of the

11 dining-room window; slightly to the right of centre, the doorway leading

12 into the kitchen of your apartment?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right. Pause

15 there.

16 Q. Do we now see, towards the centre of the image, the doorway

17 leading out of your dining-room towards the entrance to the apartment, and

18 in the foreground the table, or a table?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right. Pause

21 there.

22 Q. Again, apart from the top of Hrasno Brdo, was any other part of

23 the image in front of you controlled by the Serb army at the time that

24 your wife was shot?

25 A. No. Except for that hill up there, nothing else can be seen.

1 Q. By "that hill," do you mean the hill which appears on the

2 right-hand side of the image, on the horizon?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the image could be panned slightly to the

5 right. Stop there.

6 Q. And is that the same hill, that is, the same part of the hill that

7 you marked on the photographs that you saw earlier?

8 A. It is.

9 MR. IERACE: All right. I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

10 P3235, which is a map. Might the part of the map which is marked in pink

11 be placed on the ELMO, after the witness has seen it.

12 Q. Was your first statement dated the 23rd of November, 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At the time you made that statement, did you place some markings

15 on a map, which appears in front of you?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Did you mark with a cross inside a circle the position of your

18 apartment at the time your wife was shot?

19 A. I did.

20 MR. IERACE: All right. If the map could be placed back on

21 the -- no, no. I think the witness has already done that.

22 Please don't mark the map.

23 Q. Do you see the cross with the circle on it on the map?

24 MR. IERACE: And I ask that the part of the map which has the -- I

25 withdraw that. That's right. Thank you. If the map could be stopped at

1 that position.

2 Q. I'll ask that question again. Yes. Do you now point to the cross

3 inside a circle which denotes --

4 A. This is the building, the building that I live in.

5 Q. Did you use a pink pen to mark the position of the part of the

6 confrontation lines at the time that your wife was shot?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you please point to the pink line that you marked.

9 A. It's this line here.

10 Q. All right. Now, did you place some blue marks on the other side

11 of the pink line to indicate the ridge of Hrasno Brdo that you identified

12 in the photographs?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please indicate those blue marks.

15 A. It's these ones here, and this one.

16 Q. All right. I think you first placed the pointer on some blue

17 marks that appear right alongside the pink line; is that correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Place the pointer back there again.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. All right. Just pause there for a moment. Now, do you see that

22 you have placed the blue marks on a street which, according to the map, is

23 Ozrenska Street? Is that the case?

24 A. Yes. It is down there, because you can't see Ozrenska Street from

25 my apartment because it is higher up.

1 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the other two blue points, did you

2 place alongside them the numbers 1 and 2?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. All right. In the interests of saving time: Do they refer to

5 sources of fire, to your knowledge, during the armed conflict?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What building or buildings do those numbers denote? What do they

8 refer to?

9 A. This building number 1, that I marked number 1, this is the

10 skyscrapers of the shopping centre, as you call it, on Grbavica.

11 Q. And 2?

12 A. And this here is the building of the water management

13 administration.

14 Q. To your knowledge, during the armed conflict were there any

15 particular places in Sarajevo that received fire from either of those two

16 sources?

17 A. The snipers used to fire from the shopping centre at this

18 intersection here, at Dolac Malta.

19 Q. When you say "intersection," I think you pointed at a crossing

20 over the Miljacka River. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, the bridge here, this bridge over the Miljacka, and the

22 intersection next to it.

23 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you were in the army, and

24 you've also told us that you were living at home, sleeping at home. Is

25 that the case? Residing at home?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, where did you feel safer: at the front line or away from the

3 front line, elsewhere in Sarajevo, during the armed conflict?

4 A. I was safer, I felt more secure, on the front line.

5 Q. Why was that?

6 A. Well, I don't know. I suppose the confrontation lines were near,

7 and therefore fire was opened less often.

8 Q. What do you mean by saying "fire was opened less often" at the

9 confrontation lines? Less often than where?

10 A. Than around the city.

11 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. IERACE: Just two final matters.

14 Q. You said that your son was aged 15 and your daughter 17 when your

15 wife was killed. Was your son going to school?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Whereabouts?

18 A. In the building itself. They couldn't go to the school on Hrasno,

19 so that classes were organised - elementary school classes, that is,

20 because he was still in the elementary school - and these classes were

21 organised in buildings, in cellars. So there was a room in our small

22 building, and they did it there. And the children from adjoining

23 buildings came there to our building, and that is where they had their

24 classes.

25 Q. On the day and evening that your wife was killed, what were you

1 wearing? What type of clothing?

2 A. Civilian clothes. So I had a sweater, I think, and blue trousers.

3 Q. What was your wife wearing when she was shot? I'm sorry.

4 A. My wife was in a house frock, a pajama.

5 Q. How old was your wife?

6 A. Thirty-eight, I think. Thirty-seven, thirty-eight.

7 Q. What was your wife's full name?

8 A. Hatema.

9 Q. Do you recollect what the weather was like at the time that you

10 arrived home?

11 A. It was quiet, calm. You mean the weather, whether there was any

12 precipitation or ...?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. No. It was quiet. There was no rain, nothing.

15 Q. Were there any military units inside your building at that stage

16 when your wife was killed?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were there people other than -- I withdraw that. Were there any

19 military targets of which you were aware, such as military equipment or

20 troops, nearby your apartment on the date that your wife was killed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Had there been any shooting or shelling earlier that evening in

23 the area of your apartment, to your knowledge?

24 A. No. That day, as far as I know, it was pretty quiet, one of the

25 calmer days, because there were other days when there would be fire.

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the clock, Ms. Pilipovic, I think it's

3 better to have a break now, and if you are then ready for

4 cross-examination when we resume.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mukanovic, we'll have a break now, and after the

7 break you're examined by counsel for the Defence.

8 We'll have a break until 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, during the break I spoke with some

13 members of my team who informed me that they have been told by the Victims

14 and Witnesses Unit that there is likely to be a problem with travel

15 arrangements for a witness or witnesses that were expected to arrive

16 tonight. The unit is preparing a written memorandum explaining the nature

17 of those difficulties. In essence, they relate to arrangements between,

18 as I understand it, the Dutch Foreign Ministry and the authorities in

19 Bosnia.

20 I draw Your Honours' attention to that at this stage because it

21 may be relevant to Your Honours' deliberations on whether you wish the

22 Prosecution to call the relevant witness to explain the production and

23 editing of the videos and 360-degree photographs.

24 Might I respectfully suggest that that is most likely to impact on

25 our programme for this Thursday. Thank you.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would. We discussed the matter briefly,

2 and I think the Chamber is of the opinion that if the Defence has any

3 problems in understanding the technicalities of the -- especially the

4 360-degree photographs, then it should be clarified as soon as possible.

5 So if you would please prepare for calling the witness who will

6 specifically testify on these technical aspects, and that might fill in

7 the gap which would prevent us to waste any time.

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

10 Mr. President. May I just add the following: I said at the very

11 beginning that there were problems of informatics and computers, and there

12 was a letter from Mr. Ierace, and this type of photograph, for example, if

13 it was given to us in disk form, we always have technical problems in

14 reading it in, in accessing it. So if we have problems, and of course

15 everybody can have problems, let me just say that the system is not as

16 safe as a simple photographic system, so we have to bear that in mind.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I could not confirm that if you have a problem,

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that of course everyone may have a problem, that's

19 right. Whether they'll have a problem is a different thing. But let me

20 just ask the Prosecution.

21 If you have, as far as I can see, a system which enables you to

22 manipulate at least the picture, so that means you have two elements,

23 first of all the programme enabling you to manipulate and then of course

24 the data on the picture itself. Would it be possible to provide the -- to

25 provide the Defence also with both the programme and the photos so that

1 they can at least at home see what happens on the screen? It might not

2 solve all the problems but --

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as I understand it, the only software

4 that is required to play the 360-degree photograph is Quicktime, which is

5 freely available to be downloaded on the Internet, and legally, as I

6 understand it. But if my friends are experiencing a problem in opening

7 that photograph, then I anticipate that's where the problem exists, in not

8 having the appropriate software.

9 I would be prepared to make the relevant witness available to the

10 Defence to explain the process before he gives his evidence in lieu of a

11 statement so they have some idea as to what it is he will say, and it may

12 be that problems such as this can be overcome in those discussions. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope it will. And of course, nevertheless,

15 the testimony of the witness explaining the technical aspects, we can

16 expect that soon.

17 I'll give it a try on my computer as well so to see as where we

18 come, if you -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Well,

20 that is very good to choose a witness who could also explain to us why the

21 entirety of the system wasn't working, which was something that was

22 recognised, of course, indirectly by the Prosecution. But I'm sure that

23 all of us will be able to move forward. It was not an error on the part

24 of the Defence but a system which is largely deficient. Thank you in

25 advance anyway.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I leave the qualification as far as the systems to

2 you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but we will now continue with the examination of

3 the witness.

4 Mr. Mukanovic, I have to apologise for dealing with all kind of

5 technical issues which interrupts your examination. Your examination, of

6 course I do understand that the events you're testifying about are of far

7 greater importance than any of the technical problems we are facing here

8 in this courtroom. So this Chamber, and I think the parties also, will

9 now again fully concentrate on what you have to tell us because that's the

10 main reason why you're present here. And just forget that we have to

11 solve now and then some technical problems which are of a minor nature

12 compared to the story you are telling us. Please proceed.

13 Ms. Pilipovic.

14 You understood what I mean, Mr. Mukanovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Thank you.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, may I start off by saying good day to

19 you. And could you approach the microphone for us to be able to hear you

20 better? Thank you.

21 During the examination-in-chief today asked by my learned

22 colleague, you said that you had given to the investigators of the

23 Prosecution three statements; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you please tell me whether you gave a statement on the 4th

1 of September, 2000?

2 A. No. 2000? Yes, 2000. In the year 2000.

3 Q. Thank you. Did you make a statement on the 23rd of November,

4 1995, as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And together with that statement -- or, rather, in that statement

7 you explain something that you confirmed. And it is Defence [as

8 interpreted] Exhibit P3236. You were also asked about photographs, some

9 photographs today. On the 10th of June, 2001, did you make a statement to

10 the investigators of the Prosecution, giving them an explanation and a

11 clarification of the photographs you were shown today?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that you were employed before the

14 conflict broke out, and that was a question asked by my learned

15 colleague. Could you tell us what firm, what company you worked for?

16 A. UNIS.

17 Q. Could you tell us in what part of town the company was located?

18 A. Marin Dvor.

19 Q. Asked by my learned colleague whether you had changed your

20 employment or work in the course of the war, your answer was no; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, but I don't know in what sense you mean.

23 Q. Did you work in the work organisation located in the UNIS building

24 throughout?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether in 1992 you worked in the UNIS

2 building.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, what your profession is.

5 A. I am a maintenance worker for the central heating system.

6 Q. Let me remind you that you said that during the conflict you did

7 not change your employment, your work; you were a maintenance worker for

8 the heating system; you continued to be a maintenance worker for the

9 heating system. Is that what you said?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you were asked whether, in the course of the conflict, you

12 changed the work you did, you changed your employment, could you tell us

13 when the conflict actually came about in Sarajevo, according to you?

14 A. In April 1992.

15 Q. You told us today that you lived in a part of town which is called

16 Hrasno; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In April, May 1992, did you go to work to your company, in the

19 company you worked for?

20 A. Not in May.

21 Q. In April?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please, why you didn't go to your workplace in

24 May.

25 A. Quite simply, we weren't able to reach Marin Dvor to get there,

1 because of the barracks. There would be shooting from those barracks, and

2 we weren't able to pass by that way. And the trams weren't working,

3 neither was any other form of transport at that time.

4 Q. In May of that year, 1992, in the part of town called Hrasno where

5 you lived, was there anything unusual going on, anything unusual that

6 happened there? Was there a conflict in your part of town in May?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether, and when, the conflict broke

9 out in your part of town.

10 A. In the part of town that I lived in, there wasn't any conflict.

11 The conflict occurred at Grbavica, further off, and Hrasno Brdo, and some

12 demarcation lines, where there was some kind of demarcation going on.

13 Q. Could you tell us, please, what this demarcation was, and between

14 whom, if you know, if you're able to tell us, of course.

15 A. Well, I don't know. Probably between the army and the civilians,

16 as far as I'm able to gather, self-organised civilians who were trying to

17 prevent the army from entering the city.

18 Q. When you say "self-organised civilians," do you mean that this

19 took part in your part of town, that there were self-organised civilians

20 in your part of town as well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you happen to know whether there were any of these

23 self-organised civilians in the part of town that is called Grbavica?

24 A. I don't know. I was never up there.

25 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether, in 1992, in the part of town

1 where you yourself lived, that is to say Hrasno, whether the civilians had

2 organised themselves, whether this self-organisation of civilians ever

3 came about.

4 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I never paid attention to

5 things like that.

6 Q. So you say you don't know that in 1992, in the part of town called

7 Hrasno, the civilians undertook the process of self-organisation?

8 A. Well, I don't know. Probably. There was the reserve police

9 force, and a civilian protection system was organised of some kind.

10 Q. During the examination-in-chief and a question from my learned

11 friend, you said that you were a member of the army, that you became a

12 member of the BH army in April 1993.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us, please, what military formation you belonged to

17 when you joined the BH army.

18 A. The 1st Mountain Brigade.

19 Q. Could you tell us, please, where the command post of the 1st

20 Mountain Brigade was located, the one to which you belonged.

21 A. At Bistrik.

22 Q. How much time would you spend -- how much time did you spend in

23 the army from April to the 1st of January? How long would you spend up at

24 the front lines? During the time that you were in the army, how much time

25 did you spend up at the front lines, day, week, month? How much time

1 would you spend up at the front line?

2 A. Usually 24 hours. Then we would go home for a rest.

3 Q. Could you tell us, please, what kind of uniforms -- or rather, did

4 the BH army have uniforms?

5 A. Very rarely. Very few.

6 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether the BH army had any insignia of

7 any kind or anything that you wore which would denote your membership in

8 the army.

9 A. We were just issued some sort of coats of arms or insignia, but

10 usually we would be in civilian clothing. We didn't have any uniforms.

11 Q. You also said that you were a member of the 101st Mountain Brigade

12 and that the command post was at Bistrik. Did I understand you correctly?

13 A. The 1st Mountain, and afterwards it changed. Whether it was the

14 1st or whether it was the 2nd later on, I don't know.

15 Q. I apologise. So you said the 1st Mountain Brigade; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where the positions of your 1st

18 Mountain Brigade were? Where did you go to take up your position when you

19 were at the front lines?

20 A. At Trebevic.

21 Q. While you were at the positions at Trebevic, could you tell us

22 more specifically where those positions were located on Mount Trebevic.

23 A. I personally was to the left of the path. It was a place called

24 Kosmatica. That was the name of the slope, the area, Kosmatica.

25 Q. Can you tell us, please, whether at those front lines where you

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1 yourself were deployed, were there any trenches?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us, please, who dug those trenches?

4 A. We did. We dug the trenches ourselves mostly.

5 Q. When you, in April 1993, joined up, when you join the BH army,

6 were you issued any weapons?

7 A. No.

8 Q. If I understand you correctly, while you were up at the front

9 line, you had no weapons?

10 A. Yes, I did, at the front line.

11 Q. From April 1993, when you joined the BH army, how long did you dig

12 trenches up at the front line where you yourself were deployed?

13 A. We would always do a bit of digging, fixing some things. We would

14 also always do a bit of digging, fix up the trenches.

15 Q. From the place where the command post was, and you said it was at

16 Bistrik, and you said you would spend 24 hours at the front line, does

17 that mean that you were off for 24 hours after that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us where you spent those 24 hours off?

20 A. At home or in the company, if necessary. Sometimes I would go to

21 work in the company if the need arose.

22 Q. Could you tell us, from the command post to your apartment, how

23 did you go back home?

24 A. On foot; I walked.

25 Q. And how did you get to the command post?

1 A. Also on foot.

2 Q. Could you tell us: In that 101st Brigade, were there any

3 battalions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you belong to any of those battalions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us how many battalions there were?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Could you tell us how many men the battalions numbered, a

10 battalion numbered?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. What about the command post, the command post of your particular

13 battalion? Was that at Bistrik, too?

14 A. I don't think so. I think it was up close to the front line.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

16 like to have the witness shown a map, it is Prosecution Exhibit 3235,

17 because the Defence would like to ask the witness a few questions

18 regarding the map.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, do you have the map in front of you which you used during

22 your answers in the examination-in-chief and the colleagues -- and the

23 questions asked by my learned colleagues?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You explained to us today that the mauve colour or violet colour

1 denotes the front line.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us when the front line was established as you have

4 marked it?

5 A. In 1992.

6 Q. Could you be more specific? When in 1992? What month?

7 A. In the summer, probably. Sometime in the summer of 1992. Perhaps

8 before. I really don't know, but I know that the line was set up there,

9 and it was there all the time.

10 Q. Could you tell us the name of the street on the map by this purple

11 colour or mauve colour where you have Hrasno to the left and the blue spot

12 marked on the map? Do you know what the name of the street is?

13 A. I can't remember now.

14 Q. If I tell you that it says Djuraskovica Street, is that the

15 street? Milutin Djuraskovica.

16 A. Yes, it might be what was before. But what it's called now, I

17 really can't say.

18 Q. So you have just said that in Milutin Djuraskovica Street, that

19 that was where the front line was; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that ever since it was established in 1992 up until 1994 and

22 1995, it was not changed; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us the distance between the lines, the front lines;

25 that is to say, the -- being held by the BH army and the line controlled

1 by the army of Republika Srpska? In that particular street, what was the

2 distance?

3 A. Well, just the street. The street divided them. On one side of

4 the street was the BH army in the houses there, and the other side of the

5 street was the Serb army.

6 Q. When you say "in the buildings," the buildings that the BH army

7 was in, now, on your side as it was the part of town you lived in, could

8 you tell us what buildings there were in that street held by the BH army?

9 A. I can't tell you the names of the buildings. I know that the long

10 building was probably the one that the BH army was in, and then those

11 first buildings right up by the road. And also on the other side, in the

12 buildings across the road, was the Serb army. The petrol pump and the

13 other buildings on the other side of the street, that's where the Serb

14 army was.

15 Q. Could you tell us whether the buildings in the Hrasno area under

16 the control of the BH army, were these apartment buildings where the BH

17 army was?

18 A. I really don't know, but I believe that they had been evacuated,

19 all of them. Those were the -- right by the front line.

20 Q. So in those -- the buildings were mostly occupied by the BH army?

21 A. Yes. I'm not sure, but I believe that the civilians had been

22 evacuated.

23 Q. Could you tell us to which formation the BH army soldiers belong

24 in that part of Hrasno under the control of the BH army?

25 A. There in Hrasno, I really don't know.

1 Q. On this part of the front line, and you said it was just a street,

2 were there trenches?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Did you go to that front line?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Do you know whether on that -- in that part of town, in Hrasno and

7 Grbavica, there was fighting between the two sides, between two armies?

8 A. Yes, on several occasions.

9 Q. You told us and you indicated on that map that you live in the

10 27th of July Street.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is the distance between your street and the Hero Square, Trg

13 Heroja, in Hrasno?

14 A. I don't know. Maybe 300, 400 metres.

15 Q. Do you know that on the Hero Square, more specifically in the

16 Loris building, was the headquarters of the BH army?

17 A. I don't know. Maybe that was the first building straight by the

18 front line.

19 Q. When you marked the map, when you marked the front line on the

20 map, we were just talking about the Milutin Djuraskovica Street, and you

21 extended that line, and the line goes up to the Grbavica stadium, if I am

22 reading this correctly.

23 A. Yes, by the stadium.

24 Q. It goes towards Ozrenska Street and then it goes on further to the

25 left.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us, in relation to this part of the front line,

3 what was the distance between the warring sides?

4 A. Honestly, I don't know.

5 Q. During 1992, did you go to this front line?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you have any knowledge that in this area of the city where the

8 lines were, that there was fighting in that area?

9 A. Yes. As far as I know, on several occasions: once by the stadium,

10 once up on the hill.

11 Q. Could you tell us whether these lines, as they are established,

12 that they -- would you agree with me if I say that they divided this part

13 of town?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you agree with me that in the part of town that we are

16 talking about, the Hrasno area, from your side of the line, that that area

17 was under the control of the BH army and that this area was mostly

18 inhabited by ethnic Muslims?

19 A. There were other ethnicities as well, not only Muslims. They were

20 in a minority, but there were others.

21 Q. Do you know about the ethnic composition of the area in the city,

22 the part of the city Grbavica, in Milutin Djuraskovica Street, which was

23 under the control of the Republika Srpska army, where the majority were

24 Serbs?

25 A. I don't know what you mean. Do you mean before the war, in the

1 war itself?

2 Q. Specifically before the front lines were established.

3 A. No. I couldn't tell you, because we never followed who lived

4 where, who was majority, who was minority.

5 Q. After the front lines were established, did they establish also an

6 ethnic division of the city?

7 A. Yes, roughly speaking.

8 Q. When you told us today about the -- with regard to the

9 photographs, and this is the Prosecution Exhibit P3237, on these

10 photographs, you were explaining where things were in your apartment.

11 Could you tell us about the position that your wife was sitting in, your

12 daughter, and yourself when you came into the apartment.

13 A. They were sitting when I arrived.

14 Q. Were they drinking coffee at the time when you arrived?

15 A. No.

16 Q. After you arrived, how long afterwards did your late wife make

17 coffee?

18 A. Well, approximately after I arrived. They waited for me to come

19 home, and they knew I was supposed to come, so they were waiting for me.

20 So shortly after I arrived.

21 Q. Could you tell us, if you can recall, what the time was.

22 A. When I came home, it was about 1900 hours.

23 Q. The moment when you heard the bang in your apartment, were you in

24 the process -- is that while you were drinking coffee or had you already

25 finished drinking coffee?

1 A. We were drinking coffee.

2 Q. I will now go back to the map, and you marked -- you made a

3 marking on the map, in blue, the locations of the buildings that you

4 identified as the buildings where the shooting had come from, and "1" you

5 marked the building of the water management administration.

6 A. No.

7 Q. I'm sorry. Could you remind me? Under "1" --

8 A. These are skyscrapers in the shopping centre in Grbavica.

9 Q. Under "2," you marked that this was a building --

10 A. Of the water management administration.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how tall, how high is the water

12 management administration building, how many floors it has?

13 A. About ten, maybe.

14 Q. To a question asked by my learned colleague, you said that it was

15 from these buildings that the shooting was done.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know what weapons were used to shoot?

18 A. Sniper rifles.

19 Q. Could you tell us, in relation to your place of residence, to

20 where you lived, the buildings that were on the front line that was under

21 the control of the BH army, which is the Hrasno area of the city, were

22 there also snipers shooting from those positions towards the position

23 where the shopping centre was?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. While you were in the BH army, from April 1993 until the 1st of

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1 January, 1996, in the formations of the BH army, were there snipers?

2 A. I really don't know. I was on the front line. I was standing

3 guard. And there, where we were, we had no snipers. We were in a wood,

4 where a sniper wouldn't help you.

5 Q. So you have no knowledge whether in that area of the city, Hrasno,

6 under the control of the BH army, whether there were snipers?

7 A. I really don't know.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate for us on the map the place called

9 Bistrik and the street, if you know, if you know which street it was where

10 the command post of your brigade was.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps first zoom out so that we can ...

12 Yes. Thank you.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, could you use a black marker to mark the location on the

15 map, the location of Bistrik, please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record, the

18 witness made a circular marking on the map as being the command post of

19 the brigade, by making a circle going under the Obala Pariske Komune

20 Street.

21 Q. Witness, did I understand this correctly, the location that you've

22 marked of the command post?

23 A. It's just Bistrik.

24 Q. Yes. Above the word "Bistrik" and between the words "Obala

25 Pariske Komune"?

1 A. I don't know what the street was called. It's probably here.

2 Q. Could you just make a slightly thicker marking, and if you could

3 mark a number "1", please?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please have another marker, because this

5 one doesn't function well. Is there not any other black marker? There

6 must be a black marker somewhere in this courthouse. Could anyone --

7 Judge El Mahdi at least has a black marker. It's not a thick one, but if

8 could you give this to -- my fountain pen never functions, so it would not

9 be of great help.

10 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, looking at the last half dozen

12 questions and answers, it's certainly unclear to me what it is that the

13 witness has marked. He was invited to mark "The location on the map, the

14 location of Bistrik, please." That's page 49, line 8. He purported to do

15 that and then he was asked this question:

16 Q. Witness, did I understand this correctly, the

17 location that you've marked of the command post.

18 A. It's just Bistrik.

19 So the questions really direct themselves to two separate issues.

20 Perhaps --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if we look a few lines before, the

22 question was:

23 Q. Could you indicate for us on the map the place

24 called Bistrik, which has been mentioned by the --

25 and the street, if you know, if you know which

1 street it was where the command post of your brigade

2 was.

3 And I do agree with you that later on it was just -- Ms. Pilipovic

4 was just referring to Bistrik, but of course she explained before. But

5 let's just clarify it.

6 The place that you just indicated by putting a circle,

7 Mr. Mukanovic, was that the place where the command post was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this would clarify what the witness did.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, could you, in relation to the location you've marked as

13 being the command post of the brigade, could you mark for us where the

14 front line was where you went to your own, so to speak, command post?

15 Could you mark that for us? In which direction did you go to your command

16 post?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Could you also -- could you just make a marking with a black

19 felt-tip pen, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We've solved the problem. We have a thick

21 marker now, Mr. Mukanovic. Will you please use the thick marker.

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: I appreciate you want a minimum of objections, but

1 the witness has just been asked to do two quite separate things in the one

2 question: First of all, to mark where the front line was "when you went

3 to your own," and then it's immediately followed by a second question, "In

4 which direction did you go to your command post?"

5 I assume that the last question is an invitation to indicate how

6 he travelled from his residence to his command post. If that's the case,

7 it assumes there was the one route taken every time. In any event, I'd

8 ask that my friend split the two questions into -- so that the witness

9 isn't invited to do two things in the one question. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please guide the witness to do one

11 thing at the same time.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. Witness, when you -- when you went to your front line, to your

15 position, to your post, did you first go to the command post?

16 A. Not always. Mostly, I didn't. I would go straight to the front

17 line.

18 Q. You told us where the front line was where you were.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us, from your house to the front line that you've

21 marked as being your front line where you were, what was the route that

22 you -- that you would take? What was the front line that passed that you

23 indicated -- the front line that you said you spent 24 hours at?

24 A. We went around, around the city, all around and then up Bistrik,

25 and then we would try and get to it through different routes on the hill.

1 Q. Could you mark for us on the map when you would come to your -- to

2 the post at the command? How would you get from the command post to the

3 front line? What confrontation line would you cross to get to the place

4 which was -- which was your military post? Could you explain for -- show

5 us with the map your post? Which route did you take to get to your post?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it's not quite clear to me at this

7 moment. You asked whether the witness would first go to the command post

8 when he'd go to the front line, and then he said: "Not always. Mostly I

9 didn't. I would go straight to the front line."

10 Are you now asking the witness to indicate when he went to his

11 post before going to the front line or after returning to the front line,

12 what route he was taking or -- it's not quite clear to me what.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question whether

14 he -- whether he went to his post, to his military post from his

15 apartment, whether he would go to the command post. The answer given by

16 the witness was that he didn't. Mostly, that he -- sometimes he would go

17 to the command and then go to the line and that sometimes he would go

18 directly from his apartment to the line. And he told us which route he

19 took to get from his apartment to the line.

20 So now I would like to know from the witness, from the command

21 post, when he arrived at the command post, which route would he take to

22 get to the front line where he was.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand. From the command post to his

24 position at the front line.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 Q. Witness, could you show -- could you indicate for us on this map

2 what was the route that you took from the command post that you've marked

3 up to the front line where you had your post?

4 A. We mostly went up Bistrik and then we would take different side

5 streets.

6 Q. Could you just mark it for us with a marker on the map, the part

7 of the route that you took?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do not understand. He did not

9 always take the same route, so it's very difficult to mark,

10 Ms. Pilipovic. I don't know whether you want him to mark all the routes

11 he ever took or -- would you please be more precise?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

13 Q. Did you go to the front line from the command post that you have

14 made on the map, the location that you indicated on the map? Did you

15 always take the same route?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you would take different routes.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you took all these different routes, were there trenches in

20 those different streets that you would take?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to

24 return to the photographs that we used to make certain explanations by the

25 witness. I would like the witness to be shown photograph 2A.

1 Q. Witness, you have before you photograph 2A. Can you tell us, in

2 relation to the building that we see in the middle, and above it we see

3 structures which on the photograph 2B you said were the positions of the

4 army of Republika Srpska. Can you tell us if these buildings and these

5 houses existed in this same shape, in this same condition in 1992 and

6 1993?

7 A. These buildings were there. Up on the hill there are buildings

8 which were built recently.

9 Q. Do you have any knowledge if in this part where there are newly

10 built houses and where we also see some old houses, do you know who lived

11 there in 1992, 1993, and 1994? Or let me be more precise. Do you know

12 who those houses belonged to? When I say "who they belonged to," I'm

13 asking whether their owners were Serbs or Muslims.

14 A. I don't know, really. I think it was all mixed up there.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

16 like to show the witness the photograph 2B. That is a black-and-white

17 photograph which the witness marked as 2B. So photograph 2B.

18 Q. Witness, on this photograph, in relation to this line underneath

19 which you -- where you made some bars, was that the front line? Do you

20 have any knowledge of that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us how far -- what was the distance between the front

23 lines of the two sides in this part? We did not -- is it that you don't

24 know or --

25 A. No, I don't know. I don't know exactly what the distance was.

1 Q. You have just told us that you have never been up there, so why

2 did you mark the line here? How did you know that? How do you know that

3 this was the front line controlled by the army of Republika Srpska?

4 A. Because from these positions which I marked here, fire came as

5 often as not, fire aimed at the bridge, at the intersection. It was

6 usually of evening. One could see because they would be using tracing

7 bullets. So you could see where the fire came from.

8 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to these houses that you can see

9 here, if this is the Ozrensak street, in this part here?

10 A. No. Ozrenska Street is up there on the top.

11 Q. Can you tell us, since you've told us that from your apartment to

12 the place that you said the fire came from, as the crow flies, was 800

13 metres --

14 A. Yes. Well, I'd say so. I'm not sure that I got it right.

15 Q. Right. But can you tell us how long is the earth road from the

16 place where your apartment is to the place where you say were the

17 positions of the army of Bosnian Serbs? How many kilometres or metres?

18 A. I don't know. Believe me, I never went up those roads. I don't

19 know where they lead. I just don't know, I really don't. I made this

20 assessment looking through my window, and that is why I gave you the

21 figure, but that was it.

22 Q. That day when the incident happened and when your wife died, the

23 11th of January, 1994, did you report the incident to the authorised body?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Can you tell us who that was?

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1 A. We reported it to the police.

2 Q. Can you tell us where is the place, in relation to your apartment,

3 where the police is, the building that you went to, to report?

4 A. The police was across the river, across the Miljacka. I

5 apologise. At that time, the police was across the Miljacka, near the

6 river -- near the church. Excuse me.

7 Q. You mean that in Hrasno, in that part of the town that you lived

8 in, there were no police stations?

9 A. No, not at that time.

10 Q. Can you tell us: When you went to the police station and reported

11 the incident, did you do it that same day when it happened or could it be

12 some other day?

13 A. I think it was the next morning.

14 Q. Can you tell us --

15 A. No. I apologise. It wasn't me who reported it. It was a

16 neighbour of mine who went there to report it.

17 Q. And did the police come to the scene of the incident?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. Yes, you wanted to say something.

20 A. They came the next day, when I went to arrange things in the

21 hospital and with a funeral and all that. They came there to conduct

22 their investigation.

23 Q. Were you present?

24 A. No.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just consult my

1 colleague, please, just a moment?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, you told us that in 1992 there was a reserve police force

6 in Hrasno.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us if they were quartered in a building in Hrasno,

9 and where?

10 A. In early 1992, they were in the Ministry of the Interior building,

11 that is, the police station building, next to the mosque; and then I think

12 sometime by mid that year, they moved to another location.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- you mentioned this other location.

14 You said they moved to this other location. Do you know where that was?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much.

17 The Defence has no more questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the

19 witness?

20 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. Any questions from the Bench?

22 Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you, Mr. Mukanovic.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like us to look

1 together at the possible trajectory of the bullet which was fired and hit

2 your wife on the day of the incident.

3 I'd therefore like, registrar, if you could show the witness the

4 photograph 2B. No, I'm sorry. 1A [In English] and 1B. Can we put 1B

5 directly, please.

6 [Interpretation] Now, Witness, if I understand you right, the

7 bullet went through the window frame and hit your wife, who was sitting on

8 this settee. Is that correct?

9 A. It is.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, then, if one draws a

11 straight line from the circle that you made here in red to indicate Hrasno

12 Brdo, and I believe the trajectory would necessarily have to go down,

13 downward, because this is higher ground. Now, my question is: Did the

14 bullet go through the settee or not? Could you see any bullet traces on

15 this settee, in the seat of the settee?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But she was hit in the shoulder?

18 Did I understand it well? Your wife, she was hit in the shoulder?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Which was above the back of this

21 settee, is it? Her shoulder protruded above the back of the settee?

22 A. Well, I suppose so.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the second bullet that was

24 fired, it hit the glass?

25 A. Yes, it did.

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] It went through the windowpane?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I also have a question for you, Mr. Mukanovic. You

5 told us that from April 1993 until January 1996, you joined the Bosnian

6 army. Was this a voluntary decision of yours or were you more or less

7 forced to join the army? Could you tell us how this happened.

8 A. I was called up. I was called up, I received the papers, and I

9 reported.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So you were not voluntarily going into the army, but

11 you were just called, you were fulfilling your duty?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mukanovic, for your answer.

14 We have come to the end of your examination as a witness in this

15 Court, and I think we all are aware of how painful it must have been for

16 you to tell about a very sad moment in your life. We highly appreciate

17 that you have come to The Hague, the far way to The Hague, to answer the

18 questions of all the parties and of the Judges, since, for taking the

19 decisions we'll have to take, we depend on the assistance of those who

20 have been present at the time and at the place where the accused is

21 charged to have acted. We thank you, therefore, very much, and we wish

22 you a good journey home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please lead the witness out of

25 the courtroom.

1 Madam Registrar, then we have documents to be decided upon as to

2 their admission into evidence. I think we have -- the video is the

3 first.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 THE REGISTRAR: The video is P3280H.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think we then have the 360-degree photograph.

7 THE REGISTRAR: P3279G.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we have first a series of photos. I see

9 them in your hands.

10 THE REGISTRAR: P3237, 3238, P3239, P3240, P3241, P3242.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And then, I think, finally we have the map.

12 THE REGISTRAR: P3235.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The map that has been marked by the witness during

14 the examination.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think this would also be a good occasion to

16 tell you that you'll be provided by the registry with a new list of

17 Prosecution exhibits which will be limited only to those exhibits that

18 have been admitted into evidence and that will contain a description as

19 neutral as possible of the type of document concerned.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

21 was already very kindly informed about this this morning, but once again,

22 thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next witness for the Prosecution.

24 Mr. Mundis, you are standing.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution calls Nafa

1 Taric.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please -- oh, Mr. Usher

3 has disappeared, but ...

4 MR. MUNDIS: For the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Defence,

5 this witness will be testifying with respect to scheduled sniping incident

6 number 10.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could perhaps anyone just see where the usher is so

8 that we don't lose any ... Would there be anyone just to have a look?

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please bring in the next witness,

11 Mr. Usher.

12 I do understand we have to wait for two or three seconds. Okay.

13 We'll be patient.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Might I suggest, just perhaps out of a sense of

17 expediency, that we took the break now and resumed at 12.40, 12.45.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it's more than one or two seconds, I would

19 then suggest that we resume at a quarter to 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Taric, can you hear me in a language you

24 understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Taric, the usher will hand out a -- the text of a

2 declaration to you which the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

3 to make prior to being examined as a witness. Will you please make that

4 declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

8 WITNESS: NAFA TARIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Mundis of the team of

13 the Prosecutor who called you as a witness.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

16 Q. Mrs. Taric, for the record, can you please state your full name

17 and spell your last name?

18 A. Nafa Taric. N-a-f-a and T-a-r-i-c.

19 Q. For the record, can you please state your date of birth and the

20 town or the municipality in which you were born?

21 A. The 2nd of June, 1958, in Prijepolje, the Prijepolje

22 municipality.

23 Q. Mrs. Taric, to the best of your recollection, when did the war

24 start in Bosnia?

25 A. In April.

1 Q. Of which year?

2 A. 1992.

3 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia, can you please tell the Trial

4 Chamber what city you were living in?

5 A. I was living in the city of Sarajevo.

6 Q. What was the name of the neighbourhood or area of Sarajevo that

7 you lived in?

8 A. The neighbourhood was called Hrasno.

9 Q. In what year did you move to Sarajevo?

10 A. 1978.

11 Q. And have you continued to live in the city of Sarajevo since

12 1978?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how life in the

15 city of Sarajevo changed once the war began?

16 A. Life in town changed completely.

17 Q. Can you be more specific or elaborate upon that answer, please?

18 A. Freedom of movement, fear. We had to do without essentials,

19 water, electricity, fuel.

20 Q. During the course of --

21 A. Food.

22 Q. During the course of the war in Sarajevo, did you become aware of

23 incidents involving sniping and/or shelling?

24 A. Yes, I did become aware of that.

25 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how that sniping

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1 and shelling affected your life?

2 A. As for every other human being, I was afraid, like everybody

3 else. I had to be wary in my movements, extra careful, and I moved around

4 as little as possible.

5 Q. Were you aware of confrontation lines or front lines in the city

6 of Sarajevo during the war?

7 A. They changed quite a lot. So I don't really know very much about

8 that.

9 Q. Were you aware of the existence of such lines?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which military forces were poised along these front lines?

12 A. There were the defence lines and the army, the side that attacked

13 us.

14 Q. Which military force was on the defence lines?

15 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. Do you know the name of the forces that attacked you, as you put

17 it?

18 A. They changed names often, but they were popularly called -- they

19 themselves called themselves the Forces of the Yugoslav People's Army.

20 And there was another title, another name that was repeated often, and

21 that was the Chetniks.

22 Q. Are you aware of the term "VRS"?

23 A. I became aware of that term later on.

24 Q. And what did the acronym VRS stand for?

25 A. I assume the army of Republika Srpska.

1 Q. Mrs. Taric, when the war began, what was your occupation?

2 A. I'm a teacher.

3 Q. Do you have any children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us the gender and age of your child or children?

6 A. I have a daughter. She is now 17.

7 Q. What year was she born in?

8 A. 1985.

9 Q. Did there come a time during the war in Sarajevo that both you and

10 your daughter were shot by a sniper?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall the date of this incident?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber that date.

15 A. The 3rd of September, 1993.

16 Q. Do you recall the weather on that day?

17 A. It was a warm September day.

18 Q. Was the sun shining, was it raining, was it cloudy or overcast?

19 Do you recall?

20 A. It was a sunny September day.

21 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day both you and your

22 daughter were shot?

23 A. About 1700 hours.

24 Q. What were you doing at the time that the two of you were shot?

25 A. The school year was about to start, and my daughter was to begin

1 third form. You couldn't buy any textbooks at that time, so I went out to

2 get some textbooks from an older pupil, textbooks that my daughter could

3 use.

4 Q. Was your daughter accompanying you when you went to get these

5 textbooks?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you leave your apartment or your place of residence to go get

8 these textbooks? Is that where you started your journey from?

9 A. Yes. I left from my apartment.

10 Q. And on which side of the front lines was your apartment located?

11 A. On two sides of the front line, actually.

12 Q. Can you elaborate, please?

13 A. Could you tell me what you want me to describe?

14 Q. You testified a moment ago that your apartment was located on two

15 sides of the front line. What did you mean by that?

16 A. Yes. From two directions. That is to say, there were two danger

17 points from the confrontation lines. Looking at my apartment, there were

18 two points that were vulnerable from the confrontation line.

19 Q. Do you know what those two points were?

20 A. Grbavica and Vrace.

21 Q. Do you recall the route that you took with your daughter on 3

22 September 1993 to go and collect the textbooks?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the route you took.

25 A. I left my apartment and went through the neighbourhood, below the

1 building.

2 Q. Do you recall which streets you were on?

3 A. The street is now called Azize Sacirbegovic Street, but the name

4 before was Ivana Krndelja Street.

5 Q. Mrs. Taric, do you remember giving a statement to an investigator

6 of the Tribunal in November 1995?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember as part of that interview the investigator

9 providing you with a photocopy of a map?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember making certain markings on that map with a pen and

12 a yellow highlighter pen?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

15 the document marked P3105.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please give the document to the

17 witness.

18 MR. MUNDIS:

19 Q. Mrs. Taric, after you've looked at that document, does that

20 refresh your memory as to the document that you marked for the

21 investigator?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I'd ask that that

24 document be placed on the ELMO machine, please.

25 Q. Mrs. Taric, if you could, please, use the pointer and indicate the

1 direction that you were walking with your daughter on the day that the two

2 of you were shot.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, would you please do it on the ELMO

4 machine, which is on your right, so that we -- and not on the screen.

5 Mr. Usher, could you please help.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can get up?

7 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think it's better to sit down, if possible.

8 A. This is Hrasno, this is Trg Heroja Street, or square, and this

9 route goes down Ivana Krndelja Street and the place where I was hit by a

10 sniper bullet.

11 MR. MUNDIS:

12 Q. Mrs. Taric, does the "X" in the middle of the yellow line that

13 you've drawn indicate the location where you and your daughter were shot?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I notice that the line continues towards the left-hand side of the

16 map, the yellow line. What does that continuation indicate?

17 A. The continuation indicates where we were helped, where my daughter

18 and I were given assistance.

19 Q. Did you actually walk the full distance of the yellow line as

20 indicated on P3105?

21 A. More or less, yes, the whole line.

22 Q. Mrs. Taric, can you please describe for the Trial Chamber the

23 intersection that you were at at the time you were shot?

24 A. Could you tell me what you mean by that? I'm not quite clear.

25 Q. Do you recall the physical characteristics of the intersection?

1 A. The only part that was open, that was open space, was this

2 intersection. All the other parts of the route were either apartment

3 buildings or protection containers that had been set up.

4 Q. Do you recall if there were any protection containers at the

5 intersection where you were shot?

6 A. At the intersection itself, there was no protection. It was an

7 open space.

8 Q. Can you please describe for us what you heard as you approached

9 that intersection, if anything?

10 A. Unfortunately, I heard nothing.

11 Q. Do you know if there was a ceasefire in existence on that day?

12 A. It was quite a quiet day.

13 Q. Can you please describe for us what happened as you crossed that

14 street?

15 A. As I said, this is the only open space that I had to cross with my

16 daughter, and as soon as we appeared by one of the protection containers,

17 I felt a blunt blow, a blunt blow, and I found myself on the ground from

18 the impact of that. I pulled my daughter with me. We both lay down. I

19 pulled her down.

20 Q. Were you -- were you struck by the bullet?

21 A. Yes. The bullet hit me, and because of that, because of this

22 strong hit, I had to lie down on the ground.

23 Q. In what part of your body did the bullet strike you?

24 A. In the upper part of my leg.

25 Q. Your left leg or your right leg?

1 A. My left leg.

2 Q. Where did the bullet go after it struck you?

3 A. I don't know. All I know is that after some time, the bullet,

4 when it passed through my leg, also passed through my daughter's stomach

5 and her hand, and it was probably -- probably ended up on the ground.

6 Q. Do you recall hearing one shot at the time you were struck or more

7 than one shot?

8 A. While we were lying down like that, we heard probably one more

9 bullet which whizzed past our bodies as we lay there.

10 Q. I understand that, Mrs. Taric. I'm asking you at the time you

11 were hit if you recall hearing more than one shot.

12 A. I just heard one. Whether there was another one, I don't remember

13 because I was in a state which -- in which I couldn't feel anything.

14 Q. Mrs. Taric, do you recall what you were wearing that day?

15 A. As it was a warm day, I was wearing jeans and I had a white

16 T-shirt and a denim waistcoat. A white T-shirt and jeans jacket or

17 waistcoat.

18 Q. Were you wearing any type of clothing that could be characterised

19 as a military uniform?

20 A. Jeans, blue jeans and a blue jeans waistcoat. I don't think that

21 is a uniform of any kind.

22 Q. Were you carrying any type of military weapon at the time you were

23 shot?

24 A. No. I was just walking along with my daughter, holding her by the

25 hand.

1 Q. What was your daughter wearing that date?

2 A. She was wearing a red tracksuit.

3 Q. Were there any soldiers or people in military uniforms in the

4 immediate vicinity of you when you were shot?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was there any military equipment or heavy military weaponry in the

7 immediate vicinity of the area when you were shot?

8 A. No. No.

9 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you and your daughter

10 remained on the street after being shot?

11 A. Well, barely ten minutes.

12 Q. Do you remember seeing any other people in the immediate vicinity

13 as you were lying on the street?

14 A. This was the neighbourhood area and there were buildings, and the

15 weather was warm. People were sitting outside in front of their

16 buildings. They were sitting in front of their front doors.

17 Q. Did anyone -- immediately after you were shot, did anyone offer to

18 render you and your daughter any type of assistance?

19 A. All of them wanted to help us, but because of the danger, nobody

20 dared go up to the spot that we were at.

21 Q. Did someone eventually come to your assistance?

22 A. I tried to take my daughter to these people. As we were lying

23 down, in this lying-down position, we tried to crawl, and we - I crawled

24 too - and we managed to reach those people.

25 Q. What type of assistance did those people render to you and your

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1 daughter?

2 A. A man lifted up my daughter into his arms and carried her all the

3 way, and another man took hold of me under my arm, and that's how we went.

4 Q. Where did you go?

5 A. We went to the first infirmary.

6 Q. Were you and/or your daughter admitted into a hospital?

7 A. After the infirmary, as it was very difficult to find transport to

8 take you to hospital, we managed somehow, though, and managed to reach the

9 hospital.

10 Q. How long did you remain in the hospital?

11 A. Twelve days.

12 Q. How long did your daughter remain in the hospital?

13 A. As long as I did, 12 days.

14 Q. When you were discharged from the hospital, did the doctor or

15 hospital staff provide you with any type of paperwork?

16 A. Yes. A discharge sheet, the date we were admitted, and the date

17 we left the hospital, and it also says on this piece of paper the injury.

18 It states the injury for which we were treated.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

20 P3369.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please give the exhibit.

22 But I see, Madam Registrar, you're checking on whether this has

23 been ...

24 THE REGISTRAR: This document has previously been admitted into

25 evidence, P3369.

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: I see, Mr. Mundis, that it is marked -- prenumbered

3 P3369A. Is there any difference with the document that has been tendered

4 and admitted into evidence P3369?

5 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President. The reason the "A" was added is

6 that our trial support assistant placed that on because the document had

7 been previously admitted.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So now we'll show the original to the witness

9 and we have the copies available to us. Yes.

10 MR. MUNDIS:

11 Q. Mrs. Taric, I would like you to take a look at P3369, the document

12 that's in front of you. Do you recognise this document?

13 A. Yes. This is exactly this letter of discharge, and the time that

14 we arrived, and the time that we left the hospital, that we were

15 discharged.

16 Q. To what person or persons is this document in reference to?

17 A. I was given also a document referring to my daughter Elma.

18 Q. Does the document that's before you refer to your daughter or to

19 yourself?

20 A. To my daughter, Elma.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Might I ask at this time, Mr. President, that the

23 witness be shown the video, which is P3280I.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. If the technical staff could play the

25 video.

1 [Videotape played]

2 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please stand at the place where, to

3 the best of your recollection, the edge of the barricade was located on

4 the day that you were shot.

5 NAFA TARIC: [Indicates]

6 THE INVESTIGATOR: I will mark this location with yellow spray

7 paint.

8 Can you please indicate with your hand which area from this

9 location was open.

10 NAFA TARIC: [indicates]

11 THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please now stand at the spot where,

12 to the best of your recollection, you were when you were wounded.

13 NAFA TARIC: [Indicates]

14 THE INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark the spot, with yellow spray

15 paint, the figure "X," with the number "1" beside it.

16 Would you please show me, to the best of your recollection, where

17 your daughter was located when she was shot.

18 NAFA TARIC: [Indicates]

19 THE INVESTIGATOR: I will now place another "X" with the number

20 "2" at this location.

21 Can you please indicate where, to the best of your recollection,

22 you were when you heard a second shot.

23 NAFA TARIC: [Indicates]

24 THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please point in the direction from

25 which you heard the sound of the second shot, to the best of your

1 recollection.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Complies]

3 THE INVESTIGATOR: Thank you. Finally, can you please walk in the

4 direction that you and your daughter [indicated] and stop when you reach

5 the location where it was safe, to the best of your recollection.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Complies]"

7 MR. MUNDIS:

8 Q. Mrs. Taric, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. Did you comply with the instructions of the investigator to the

11 best of your knowledge?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. And you complied with those directions truthfully?

14 A. I did.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

16 Exhibit P3268, which composes two photographs.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you give the photographs to

18 the witness.

19 MR. MUNDIS:

20 Q. Mrs. Taric, I'd ask that you look first at the document with the

21 number 02114324. Have you ever seen this photograph before, Mrs. Taric?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this photograph shown to you by an investigator at the

24 Tribunal?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And did you make some markings on this photograph?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this photograph depicts?

4 A. Exactly this open space which was protected by containers.

5 Q. With the assistance of the usher, if you could place that

6 photograph on the ELMO machine, please. I draw your attention to the

7 markings in a thick marker in the lower part of the middle of the

8 photograph. Did you make those markings on this document, Mrs. Taric?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. What do those markings indicate?

11 A. The markings I made was an attempt to try to depict this -- the

12 height of the protection of the protective containers.

13 Q. On the day in question, on which side of the containers, these

14 protective barriers, were you and your daughter walking, on the side where

15 the photographer is located or on the side where the automobile which is

16 driving away from the photographer is located?

17 A. We were walking -- as we were crossing the street, it is this side

18 that we were walking.

19 Q. Let the record reflect, Mr. President, that the witness is

20 pointing to the side of the drawings that would be the side that the

21 photographer is located on.

22 Now, Mrs. Taric, which direction, as shown on this photograph,

23 were you and your daughter walking on that day, from left to right or from

24 right to left?

25 A. So we were walking from left to right.

1 Q. And in this photograph that is in front of you, can you please

2 point to the approximate location where you and your daughter were walking

3 at the time you were shot?

4 A. The spot would be approximately here.

5 MR. MUNDIS: If the usher could please provide a blue marker to

6 the witness, I would ask that she mark an "X" on the location where she

7 was shot.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric. Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10 MR. MUNDIS:

11 Q. Mrs. Taric, does this photograph, 02114324, show the area where

12 you heard the second bullet coming from?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please mark that area with the blue pen, perhaps circling

15 the area where you heard the second gunshot come from, please?

16 A. I would like to ask you whether you want me to put in the location

17 or the direction.

18 Q. I would ask if you could please circle the location or the area

19 from which you heard the second gunshot. If you could just place a circle

20 around that area or areas, please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge or idea where the person who was

23 actually shooting you was located?

24 A. After the incident, we found out that the bullet had come from the

25 other side, from the top of the hill, and the street in question is

1 Ozrenska Street.

2 Q. Do you see the approximate location on this photograph of where

3 Ozrenska Street is located?

4 A. The area is -- was going approximately along this street, and it

5 goes up there to the neighbourhood where all these private houses or

6 family houses are, and this is where that street is. So it would be top

7 of the hill.

8 Q. Could you please again take the blue marker and draw a circle or

9 an oval in the area where you learned that this shot came from.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the second circle which the witness

12 has drawn is immediately above the ridge in --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask to have the question

14 asked a little more loudly, please?

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mrs. Taric, that Mr. Mundis was now, just

16 for the record, describing where you put the circle. So this is not a new

17 question, but it just indicates so that we will be able to read later on

18 where actually you marked the photograph. So this is not a new question.

19 It was just indicating where you marked the photograph.

20 So if you please let Mr. Mundis proceed, and when there is a new

21 question, he'll indicate this to you.

22 Yes. Please.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. For the record, the second

24 circle which the witness has drawn is immediately above the ridge shown in

25 the photograph, approximately midway through the photograph, halfway

1 through the photograph, and slightly to the right of the centre of the

2 photograph.

3 Q. Mrs. Taric, returning now to the first circle that you drew, that

4 is, the one that is closest to the "X" which you drew, could you please

5 draw a straight line with an arrow on it from that circle towards the

6 direction that you were walking when you were shot.

7 A. [Marks]

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. Mrs. Taric, can you please draw an arrow in the direction from

11 which you heard the second gunshot.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Could you please place the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry, but

16 with these technical difficulties, we now see on our screens a very bad

17 picture. I cannot see a circle or anything whatsoever. We have a very

18 dark image on our screen. We cannot see what the witness is marking.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar just informs me that she has already

21 spoken with the technical booth. So it might be difficult to see it on

22 the screen, but if you're in any need, as soon as the marking has ended,

23 I'll give you the opportunity to inspect specifically the markings before

24 cross-examining the witness, so that you can see on the original

25 photograph what the markings are.

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1 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mrs. Taric, can you please indicate the arrow pointing in the

4 direction you were walking by placing the number "1" next to the arrow.

5 A. You mean the arrow after I was hit? Do I have to mark that arrow

6 with number "1"?

7 Q. Let me try this again, Mrs. Taric. You've marked two arrows on

8 the photograph; is that correct? There's an arrow pointing away from the

9 "X," pointing towards the edge of the photograph. That is the first

10 arrow that you drew. Do you see that arrow?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please place the number "1" by that arrow.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And just so the record is clear, ma'am, if you could please tell

15 us what that arrow represents.

16 A. This arrow marked with "1" represents the direction of our

17 movement from the spot where we were wounded, towards the location where

18 we were given first aid.

19 Q. Now, the second arrow, Mrs. Taric, could you please mark that with

20 the number "2."

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. And again, for the record, can you please describe

23 what that arrow represents.

24 A. The arrow marked with "2" represents the direction from which I

25 heard the following shots, the shots that followed.

1 Q. And by "the shots that followed," you mean the shots that followed

2 after you and your daughter were shot by the bullet; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I'd ask that the

6 second photograph of that exhibit, that is, the document marked 02114325,

7 be placed on the ELMO, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. So that

10 we could at least follow this, because now we would like to have a look at

11 this photograph and examine it, the one that was marked by the witness.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please --

14 Could the first one already be given to the Defence so they can

15 better follow?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please give this photograph to

18 the Defence so that they can inspect the markings put on the photograph.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could Mr. Mundis proceed now or ...?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, certainly, since I

21 believe that we are finished with it very soon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Mrs. Taric, I'd ask you now to look at the photo which is on the

25 machine to your right, with the number 02114325 in the lower left corner.

1 Do you recognise this photograph?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And did you also make some markings on this photograph?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. What markings did you make on the photograph, please?

6 A. I marked the location which was protected by the containers.

7 Q. And would that be the area in the middle of the photograph with

8 the square and the rectangle and hash marks through those, or striped

9 lines through those diagrams?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you also see in this photograph the approximate location where

12 you and your daughter were walking at the time that you were wounded?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Again, Mrs. Taric, I'd ask you to take the blue marker and place

15 an "X" on the location where you and your daughter were at the time you

16 were shot.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. MUNDIS: The usher can take that photograph and show it to the

20 Defence counsel. We're finished with it at this time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Usher, you can take the photograph to

22 the Defence table.

23 I beg your pardon? You don't need it.

24 Okay. Then please return it to the registrar.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

1 Q. Mrs. Taric, you testified a few moments ago that the location of

2 the person who shot you was on the Ozrenska Street. Do you know on which

3 side of the front lines that street was located at the time you and your

4 daughter were shot?

5 A. I did not understand the question.

6 Q. You testified a few moments ago that you subsequently learned that

7 the location of the person who shot you was on the Ozrenska Street; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know which military force controlled the area along the

11 Ozrenska Street on the day that you and your daughter were shot?

12 A. This was -- these were the positions of the forces that attacked

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was the JNA, Yugoslav People's Army, helped by

14 other formations.

15 Q. Do you know, at the time when you and your daughter were shot,

16 whether the VRS was yet in existence and operating under that name?

17 A. I heard about that name much later.

18 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was the VRS a successor to the

19 JNA?

20 A. It probably was.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. The next area and

22 final area of the direct examination involves the 360-degree photograph,

23 and I don't believe I can --

24 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think it will take? If it's

25 just a matter of, well, let's say ten to seven or eight minutes, we might

1 ask the technical staff or the interpreters' booth whether we could finish

2 the examination-in-chief. Have you any indication?

3 MR. MUNDIS: I would say no more than ten minutes perhaps. More

4 likely closer to five.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be any problem both from the courtroom

6 facilities and the assistance of the technical and interpreter staff?

7 THE INTERPRETER: No problem, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So then I would suggest that you continue.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that I'm

11 seeing, but perhaps I am maybe making a mistake, and I think that the

12 transcript -- the court reporters are very tired. So of course we can

13 continue as long as necessary.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I may not have noticed exactly who else could -- is

15 there any objection? We'll stop immediately. I see no objection from

16 whatever side. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

17 Please proceed then, Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask that the

19 360-degree photograph be shown to the witness now, please.

20 Q. Witness, can you please briefly describe what you see in the

21 photograph immediately in front of you on the screen?

22 A. One can see the direction or, rather, the place, these buildings,

23 showing how we arrived, the street that was shielded, and the area where

24 my daughter and I were wounded.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Can the photograph please be panned to the right.

1 Stop, please. Can the photograph please be zoomed in. A little bit

2 further, please. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Witness, in the background of the photograph there appears to

4 be a ridge. Do you know what area is depicted in the photograph in front

5 of you slightly to the left of the centre, to the left of the tree in the

6 centre of the photograph?

7 A. No, I don't know what that is.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Can the photograph please be panned to the right.

9 Stop, please.

10 Q. Mrs. Taric, do you recognise what is now visible on the screen in

11 front of you?

12 A. I do, yes. That is the road, the route which I covered with my

13 daughter, with my wounded daughter, to then take cover behind this

14 building.

15 Q. Would it be correct that there is an area towards the right-hand

16 side of the photo on the bottom where there appears to be a path through

17 the grass? Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that the path that you and your daughter went along after you

20 were being shot?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. And to the left of that path there appears to be an area of

23 concrete or asphalt; is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Is that where your daughter and you first received the assistance

1 of people who were standing in the vicinity after being shot?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Can the photograph please be panned further to the

4 right. That's fine. Stop.

5 Q. Mrs. Taric, do you see anywhere in the photograph on the screen in

6 front of you the location or direction from which you heard the second

7 gunshot after you and your daughter were wounded?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please describe for us in words the area or areas where

10 you heard that gunshot coming from?

11 A. Well, I heard the shot as coming from my left, and then along the

12 street to the place where I was wounded, the whole length on the left-hand

13 side towards the hill.

14 Q. And as you were walking, would the path that is in the right-hand

15 side of the photograph, extending into the distance, would that have been

16 on your left at the time you were shot?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. To the best of your knowledge then, did the shot come from

19 somewhere along the ridge at the back of -- towards the rear and in the

20 middle of the photograph on the screen in front of you?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I understand the question,

23 where were the bullets coming or, rather, whether the bullets came from

24 such-and-such place, because this sounds a leading question. That is at

25 least what I think.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please rephrase your question, Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly.

3 Q. Mrs. Taric, on the photograph shown in front of you on the screen,

4 do you -- can you indicate to us from where you heard the second gunshot?

5 That would be the shot after you and your daughter were wounded.

6 A. As I was moving, as I was walking down the left-hand side, from

7 that side, that is from my left side, I heard a shot covering -- coming

8 from across the whole of the open space towards the hill.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I did neglect to ask the witness one

11 question or a series of -- a couple of questions with respect to the

12 second photograph that she was shown a few moments ago.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it be done in just a couple of minutes?

14 Because otherwise --

15 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed then.

17 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that she be shown the photograph marked

18 02114325.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm

21 sorry, but for the transcript it is important I note that in the

22 transcript in English there are certain things which I say which are not

23 interpreted. Therefore, we shall have to find some solution for this

24 problem, because if you follow the English transcript and if I'm trying to

25 say something, then I think that for better or for worse, everything that

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1 I have said should be interpreted. Thank you very much in advance.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was this about the objection you made against

3 the questioning?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... for the -- for

6 the final version of the -- of the transcript. You know that overnight

7 they're still working on it. If there would remain any part untranslated

8 by tomorrow, please write down precisely which part it is and give it to

9 us so that we can take care that proper attention will be paid to it.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I ask that that photograph

12 be placed on the ELMO, please.

13 Q. Mrs. Taric, to the right-hand side of that photograph there is a

14 rather tall building that appears to be a block of flats with a white side

15 towards the photograph. If you look then immediately to the left where

16 you've drawn the two diagrams indicating the containers. Do you see that

17 on the photograph?

18 A. I do, yes.

19 Q. And between the diagram and the building, there is what appears to

20 be a small grassy area.

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Do you -- did you and your daughter pass through that area,

23 through that general area at the time or shortly before you were shot?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall on the day that the two of you were shot whether or

1 not that area was open or was there a container in that location where the

2 grass is shown between the diagram and the building?

3 A. Yes. The area where you see grass now, about half of this current

4 grass patch was protected.

5 Q. Was part of that area also then open? If part of it was

6 protected, it would follow that part of it was open. Is that correct?

7 A. Well, most of it. The part which follows the grass patch, and

8 that is the pedestrian path, that was open, fully open, the only thing

9 that was open.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Thank you very much, Mrs. Taric. The Prosecution has no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, we will have a break now until tomorrow

14 at 9.00. We'll then continue. I hope you were not too nervous, because

15 it's quite a new environment for you, I think, a courtroom.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am slightly upset, of

17 course, and talking about things that happened so many years ago, now to

18 remember it all, after all this time, it does have its effect.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We hope that, as far as possible in these

20 circumstances, you feel comfortable, and we'll then see you back tomorrow

21 morning at 9.00.

22 We'll adjourn until Wednesday, 9.00.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

25 February 2002, at 9.00 a.m.