Page 4308
1 Monday, 25 February 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone after this long weekend.
6 Mr. Ierace. Let me just first ask the Registrar to call the case, because
7 I had forgotten that. Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may recall that last Friday, the
13 Prosecution sought leave to change the order of witnesses. The next
14 witness will be retired squadron leader Carl Harding, and he will be taken
15 by Mr. Waespi.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We discussed the change of order in your
17 absence, Ms. Pilipovic, as you might have heard meanwhile.
18 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness into the courtroom.
19 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness is in a wheelchair,
21 and I should make clear that the circumstances in which he came to be in a
22 wheelchair have nothing to do with what happened in Sarajevo. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's good to know.
24 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 4309
1 Good morning to begin with. Thank you for giving me the floor. Here I
2 wish to mention that the Defence had only extremely limited time, not to
3 say no time at all, to prepare for the cross-examination of this witness
4 for the reasons that you know. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Harding, as I understood.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, before giving testimony in this
11 courtroom -- first of all, welcome in this courtroom -- the rules require
12 you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole
13 truth and nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn declaration will
14 be handed out to you now by the usher. And since I do understand that you
15 speak English, I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harding.
19 Mr. Waespi, you may examine the witness.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning,
21 Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Harding.
22 WITNESS: CARL DANIEL EDWIN HARDING
23 Examined by Mr. Waespi:
24 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Court with your full
25 name.
Page 4310
1 A. My name is Carl Daniel Edwin Harding.
2 Q. What is your date of birth?
3 A. 14th September, 1964.
4 Q. Are you married?
5 A. I'm married?
6 A. Yes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please break
8 between question and answer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I immediately ask you both just to pause for
10 a while so that the translators are able first to translate the question,
11 and then to translate the answer because if you continue speaking in the
12 same language on a continuous basis, then they will not be able to follow
13 it.
14 Yes, please.
15 MR. WAESPI:
16 Q. Let me briefly go through your military career. Is it correct
17 that you served with the Royal Air Force regiment for 16 years, and you
18 retired in March 2000?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And the Royal Air Force regiment is the branch of the RAF that has
21 responsibility for ground defence?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And it's correct, therefore, that your training is akin to that of
24 an infantry office, even though you served in the RAF?
25 A. That's right, yes.
Page 4311
1 Q. Now, let's go to your service in Sarajevo. What time did you
2 arrive in Sarajevo?
3 A. I arrived in Sarajevo late July of 1992.
4 Q. When did you leave Sarajevo?
5 A. In January 1993.
6 Q. Do you recall the exact date when you left?
7 A. Approximately the 23rd of January, 1993.
8 Q. Now, in Sarajevo, in what capacity were you there?
9 A. I was there as an unarmed military observer, which was given the
10 name of "UNMO."
11 Q. What was your initial assignment as an UNMO, and where was your
12 initial posting?
13 A. My assignment as an UNMO was to observe and to report all military
14 activity from either side. My first position was known as PAPA 1, which
15 was a gun position high on a hill on the northern side of the city.
16 Q. Now, when you say -- first of all, perhaps UNMO, what does UNMO
17 stand for?
18 A. UNMO is United Nations military observer.
19 Q. And you just mentioned also "PAPA." What does "PAPA" stand for?
20 A. PAPA is from the phonetic alphabet and it stood for Presidency
21 which identified that I was within the city. If I was outside of the
22 city, all signs would be LIMA, and that stood for Lukavica.
23 Q. And LIMA observers would observe which weapons of which warring
24 faction?
25 A. LIMAs would observe on the Bosnian Serb side, and PAPA would be
Page 4312
1 within the city for the Bosnian side.
2 Q. Now, can you tell us how many PAPA locations were there at your
3 time, and perhaps you can refer to a map in telling the Judges where these
4 positions were.
5 MR. WAESPI: And I would like the usher to give the map numbered
6 Prosecution Exhibit 3644, a fresh one, to this witness. I understand that
7 later it will be identified as H, but perhaps the Registrar can be more
8 specific.
9 Mr. Harding, if you can briefly look at your screen because there
10 you can see what part the Judges...
11 THE WITNESS: I was just trying to make sure I can see them all.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. Just take your time. As soon as you have had the chance to
14 orientate yourself, we will ask you to identify the old PAPA positions you
15 were aware of at the time you arrived, and please take us through starting
16 with Number 1. And after you have started, perhaps you can be provided
17 with a blue pen so you can mark with a circle and add the number to it,
18 which PAPA location you are referring to.
19 A. PAPA 1 was on the hill below the television transmitter area.
20 PAPA 2 was lower down the same hill.
21 Q. Perhaps one second to say for the record, you are using I think a
22 black pen, and you are making triangulars. But it doesn't really matter.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Actually, I think a blue pen is used, and it should
24 be a blue pen because blue is the colour for the Prosecution. It's rather
25 dark blue, and the triangulars is correct, yes.
Page 4313
1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: It's blue pen.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thanks.
4 A. PAPA 3 was located in a small office block next to the Lion
5 Cemetery. PAPA 4 was the old olympic stadium. PAPA 5 overlooked the
6 railway lines and barracks at Rajlovac. There was two positions. The
7 southern one was the observation post. The northern one was for
8 administration and where you would sleep. Observed from this one and
9 slept and administration at that one.
10 Q. Yes. Perhaps you can mark the northern one with an A, 5A, and
11 the southern one with a B.
12 A. [Marks].
13 And finally...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have it on the ELMO before you mark
15 it, yes, so we see your hand on the screen.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's difficult to see on a photocopy. And the
17 headquarters of the PAPA side UNMOs was in a building adjacent to the
18 Presidency in the city.
19 MR. WAESPI:
20 Q. Mr. Harding, was there also a time when a PAPA Number 6 was
21 established?
22 A. Yes, the positions I've shown were the positions when I first
23 arrived in Sarajevo. After reconsideration, some of the positions were
24 moved so as to provide better locations from which to observe. Can I mark
25 the new locations on the map?
Page 4314
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Page 4315
1 Q. Yes, please.
2 A. With a circle.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. To start, PAPA 1 was withdrawn completely as the weapons moved.
5 PAPA 2 was moved along the side of the hill and was fairly close to where
6 it was originally, but the house was much higher and had a much better
7 view. It was just higher up the hill.
8 PAPA 3, which overlooked the Lion Cemetery, was withdrawn. PAPA
9 5, the two locations for PAPA 5, were both withdrawn. New PAPA 5 was put
10 in place which directly overlooked the PTT building.
11 Q. Can you perhaps at this point tell us what the PTT building was.
12 A. The PTT building was the headquarters for UN operations at the
13 time.
14 Q. Are you able to show us on the map where that building was?
15 A. Approximately this location.
16 Q. Yes. Perhaps you can also draw a circle and add a "P" to it.
17 A. PTT building, in this area. It's difficult to tell on this map
18 where the main UN headquarters were. There's also the location for our
19 field hospital run by the French.
20 Q. When did this change of P5, for instance, did come into effect?
21 A. PAPA 5 was moved about September of 1992, I can't remember the
22 exact date. The new observation post was put in place, known as PAPA 6.
23 PAPA 6 was high on the hill directly south of Bistrik barracks, which
24 is where the Egyptian battalion was.
25 Q. When was PAPA 6 established?
Page 4316
1 A. Without referring to my notes, it's about late September.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
4 Defence has one objection. Could the map be zoomed in to enable us to
5 precisely locate it and what is it where it says PAPA 6. We simply cannot
6 see. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it please be zoomed in a bit more so that
8 the Defence is better able to...
9 A. PAPA 6 was high on the hill just below the treeline. It had a
10 purpose-built observation post, and the administration area was in a house
11 right next door to it and on the treeline. It was high on the hill. It
12 looked over all of the old city and west to the hills on the other side of
13 the valley -- I'm sorry, east to the hills on the other side of the
14 valley. The aim of these -- this redeployment was PAPA 6 could see the
15 eastern end of the city, the new PAPA 2 could see the centre of the city,
16 and PAPA 5 could see the west end of the city.
17 MR. WAESPI:
18 Q. Mr. Harding in general--
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
20 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry for that.
21 Q. Mr. Harding, what was the reason for the establishment of a PAPA
22 observation point? Let's take PAPA 1 where you were at initially. Why
23 was there an observation post?
24 A. At PAPA 1, which is high on the hill just below the television
25 transmitter, there were four 105-millimetre Howitzers, small field guns.
Page 4317
1 With those guns, there were 50 personnel, and they lived in a house next
2 to their weapons.
3 Q. So is it correct to say that PAPA locations were placed where
4 there was weaponry, military equipment from the AH side?
5 A. That's correct. PAPA 1 had the field guns. PAPA 2, which was
6 below, had some other mechanised pieces of equipment. PAPA 3 had some
7 other APCs, armoured personnel carry yes, sir, and PAPA 4, there were some
8 mortars and vehicles to move these. PAPA 5 was the only true observation
9 post when I first arrived in Sarajevo.
10 Q. And if the location of a PAPA was moved, what was the reason for
11 that?
12 A. The reason to redeploy all of the PAPA call signs was because they
13 were not doing proper observation duty of the city, and the equipment that
14 they were with was very static in that it didn't work or they did not have
15 any ammunition for it.
16 Q. For instance, the APCs you have mentioned at PAPA 3, did they ever
17 move?
18 A. No, they didn't.
19 Q. Now, let me take you back to PAPA position 1. These men you
20 described, I think you mentioned the figure of 50, were they in uniform?
21 A. There was 50 men. The occasional one would have a camouflage
22 jacket, and one or two would have camouflage trousers. But the majority
23 of those 50 men were in normal civilian clothing without small arms,
24 without helmets.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 4318
1 You mentioned the four artillery pieces at PAPA Number 1. Were
2 these pieces active?
3 A. When I arrived, the guns had not been active for some time. They
4 had had ammunition. The empty boxes were there, as were the empty cases.
5 But you could tell by the area around each gun and the way that it was dug
6 into the ground, there must have been firing when the ground was wet and
7 fairly sodden because you could see boot marks and footprints. But now
8 the whole area was completely dry and everything had shrunk down to lock
9 the weapons in place. They hadn't moved for at least a week and a half
10 when I first arrived, which would have been end of July 1992.
11 Q. Apart from the static PAPA observation posts which you had
12 identified number by number, were also patrols made?
13 A. When I first arrived, the patrols were normally on administrative
14 duties. However, there was one location that had T-55 tanks, and that was
15 checked every day by a patrol. Later on, when the observation posts were
16 moved, there was a much greater patrol in order to monitor the armoured
17 vehicles that once had PAPA observers next to them.
18 Q. You mentioned tanks, T-55 tanks, I believe you said. Can you tell
19 us the locations of those tanks?
20 A. There were two T-55 tanks, and they were in a tunnel where
21 vehicles would go through. There were two tunnels, one of which wasn't
22 finished because there was no road connecting it. The other one was used
23 all the time. On the northern end of that tunnel, the tanks were just
24 inside and just parked up.
25 Q. Did these tanks, to your knowledge, were they guarded?
Page 4319
1 A. No, there was no guard on them, and we were free to climb on them,
2 have a good look around. We had record of their serial numbers and
3 identifying features. But they were just static with nobody there.
4 Q. How many times were they checked, these tanks but also other ABiH
5 weaponry?
6 A. At a minimum, they would have been checked twice a day, once in
7 the morning and once late in the afternoon. But as the vehicles were
8 moving around, as the UN vehicles were moving around, they were on a very
9 popular route and therefore were driven past numerous times each day.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
11 Now, you said you were initially stationed at PAPA 1. Was there a
12 time you moved to PAPA 5?
13 A. Yes, I stayed at PAPA 1 for four or five days until I'd finished
14 digging defensive bunker. I then moved on to PAPA 5, which overlooked
15 Rajlovac barracks at the western end of the city.
16 Q. While you were there at PAPA 5, can you tell us of a specific
17 incident which you recall?
18 A. In the initial PAPA 5, the -- I'll show you on the map. As I said
19 at the start, PAPA 5 was split into two locations. This location was for
20 the sleeping and administration --
21 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. This location, you just pointed at 5
22 --
23 A. Yes, at location 5A, the northern location was in a house,
24 administration. The location 5B was the observation post that was manned
25 at night. There was one occasion where I was manning location 5B, which
Page 4320
1 was in a house that was only half built, the building next door to me was
2 engaged by heavy weapons such as 12.7 millimetre heavy machine-gun or 20
3 millimetre anti-aircraft gun. All these buildings are made of very soft
4 building, and we just had to stand our ground. There was also occasion
5 when I was at 5 alpha, the front line is very close to it on the northern
6 side, to the east of it, and to the west of it, so there was an occasion
7 where there was a large gun battle in the area, firing down the street in
8 front of our house, as well as numerous mortars landing approximately 75
9 metres from our house.
10 This was the second position that I manned, and I was there for
11 approximately three days.
12 Q. How long did you act as an UNMO in the observation post PAPA 1 and
13 PAPA 5?
14 A. I was an UNMO until late September when I became part of the PAPA
15 headquarters staff initially with the post of logistics officer. In that
16 post, I was responsible for resupply of all of the PAPA UNMO positions.
17 Q. Was there a time that you also became operations officer?
18 A. Yes. Started at logistics, and at that time there was an
19 operations officer as well as a subsector commander. So there were three
20 people on the headquarters. I became logistics officer. The operations
21 officer was moved out of the sector, was not replaced, and I became the
22 operations officer and second in command for the PAPA UNMOs.
23 Q. How long did you perform this job as an operations officer?
24 A. I was doing both those jobs until the 23rd of November when I
25 became the subsector commander on the PAPA side.
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Page 4322
1 Q. Who was your superior as a subsector commander?
2 A. My superior, when I became the subsector commander, was Lieutenant
3 Colonel Richard Mole. He was posted out from the sector and was replaced
4 by Lieutenant Colonel cut -- Cutler.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding. Now, as a subsector commander, what were
6 your duties and what were you in command of?
7 A. Subsector commander is in command of all the PAPA UNMOs, that's
8 all the observation posts, patrols, responsible for resupply, collation of
9 information and tasking PAPA side UNMOs for utility repair duties as
10 required and any other duties required within the sector. I was
11 responsible for those PAPA side UNMOs in all respects.
12 Q. How many UNMOs were under your command?
13 A. The number would vary, but on average the -- between 20 and 25.
14 All officers, captains and above, three of them were lieutenant colonels,
15 and my rank was a major.
16 Q. Just one last question before we move on to a specific incident:
17 Having seen these UNMO posts, especially PAPA 1 and PAPA 5 but also others
18 which you have [indiscernible], did you form a view about the
19 professionalism of the ABiH soldiers?
20 A. When we come into direct contact with these soldiers, at PAPA 1,
21 there was 50, or at PAPA 4 which is the location under the stadium, the
22 majority were -- had minimum training. An example would be PAPA 1 gun
23 position, one of the men had been a costume designer and maker for the
24 television studio. Three and a half months later, he is now manning
25 artillery pieces, and that's just one example of the civilian
Page 4323
1 professions. You could tell by the way they acted, the way they were
2 dressed, that the majority of them were basically civilians, just minimum
3 training, enough to see them past the piece of equipment that they were
4 supposed to man, but nothing more.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
6 Let's now talk about some specific incidents. First of all, was
7 the Lion Cemetery in your area of observation?
8 A. When I first arrived, PAPA 3 was in the bottom of an office block
9 and directly overlooked the Lion Cemetery as it had a clear view to the
10 north and to the stadium up here. Even when this position was withdrawn,
11 it was then part of our patrol route. We would stop at PAPA 3, check the
12 armoured vehicles next to the office block, get passed the Lion Cemetery
13 and on to PAPA 4 at the old olympic stadium. So this cemetery and this
14 position were checked twice a day by the patrol.
15 Q. Perhaps you may have answered that already, but was there a time
16 when PAPA 3 had moved?
17 A. Yes. It had been a static position. It was decided that the
18 men -- the UNMOs there could be better used in observation posts and
19 patrols. So we withdrew completely from PAPA 3, and we moved all of our
20 stores and all of our defences, which were mainly sandbags.
21 Q. The Lion Cemetery, while you were there, did it increase in size?
22 A. When I first arrived, the graves were being dug by a mechanical
23 digger, and extra graves were dug between graves which were obviously
24 prewar. By the time I left, the cemetery had overflowed. Directly
25 opposite was an all-weather football pitch, and graves were dug into that
Page 4324
1 football pitch and on to the grass next to it. And they were usually dug
2 five to ten at a time while the people were there. By the time I left,
3 that football pitch was half covered with graves. So yes, the cemetery
4 did overflow after all of the area had been used and was infill between
5 graves.
6 Q. At this Lion Cemetery, did funerals take place?
7 A. Yes, they did. They took place all the time. Sometimes three or
8 four at a time. And then there were formal occasions, each one of them,
9 as time would allow, because there was so many.
10 Q. Were these funerals ever subject of attacks?
11 A. Funerals were a fairly common thing to be attacked, and so it
12 wasn't unusual. You didn't stay around -- near the cemetery to watch a
13 funeral because you risked -- there was an increased risk of an attack.
14 So funerals could be observed from PAPA 4, which was to the north and at
15 the olympic stadium.
16 Q. And when you say they were attacked, who attacked those funerals?
17 Where did the shots originate from?
18 A. Attacks on the funeral had come from the north and slightly
19 northeast. I'm indicating on the map north, PAPA 4, around to the east.
20 And they come from the Bosnian Serb forces. That is the location of the
21 front line in this area. An example, north of PAPA 4 was the front line.
22 You went inside the stadium in the centre, then there was a risk of sniper
23 fire, to give an example of how close the front line was.
24 Q. And the sniper fire would originate from which part of the --
25 which side of the confrontation line?
Page 4325
1 A. From the Bosnian Serb side. So this area here, north of 4, around
2 to here, PAPA 3. And the attacks on the cemetery were from that location.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you please, for the sake of the
5 record, indicate where the witness is pointing at, which might not be
6 quite clear if we do not describe it. Or ask the witness to mark the
7 locations he indicated.
8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, exactly. That's what I was going to do.
9 Q. Perhaps you can tell us again where the sniping fire originated
10 from.
11 A. [Marks].
12 MR. WAESPI: The witness just drew four interrupted lines north of
13 observation post 4.
14 Q. And perhaps you can add an S, letter S, to the right end of that
15 line.
16 A. Marks -- the dotted line marked with an S is the approximate
17 location of the front line at that time. So the Lion Cemetery can be
18 observed from the front line, front line just north of the stadium. And
19 so the stadium was subject to sniper fire from some of the buildings here.
20 Q. And "the buildings here," can you perhaps draw a little circle and
21 a P indicating that these are the buildings you were referring to.
22 A. The front line was fairly fluid here because there are buildings.
23 It's difficult to draw exactly where it was as it did move. But it was
24 from the buildings to the north could put fire on to the stadium, and also
25 the drive leading into the stadium from its east side, all over around
Page 4326
1 this Number 4.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
3 MR. WAESPI: Just for the sake of the record, the Lion Cemetery,
4 can you make a cross and add L to it.
5 A. PAPA 3 and the small cross are side by side, because PAPA 3 was at
6 the cemetery.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.
8 Now, can you describe to the Trial Chamber one of such attacks,
9 and first of all, my first question would be, did you witness the attack
10 yourself?
11 A. There was an attack on the 23rd of October, 1992. The attack was
12 observed by Major Nikolai Roumiantsev. Excuse my pronunciation.
13 Roumiantsev. He was from the Russian army. He was doing a patrol and had
14 stopped at PAPA 4. He was due to return driving down the road from the
15 stadium here at PAPA 4, you can see the stadium mark there. Straight down
16 the road, but he could not return because a funeral in the Lion Cemetery
17 was under attack by mortars. He stayed and watched the duration and
18 reported -- would have reported it over the radio to the PAPA
19 headquarters.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
21 And you just indicated that this Russian major, he travelled
22 between PAPA 4 towards on that street you said, towards PAPA 3, and then
23 he had to stop.
24 A. Yes. He was due to drive past PAPA 3, which is passed the Lion
25 Cemetery, but to do so was too dangerous. He had to wait and watch until
Page 4327
1 the mortar fire stopped, and then he could drive back to the
2 headquarters. Then on the 24th, I was informed there had been damage to
3 the old PAPA 3 building, and I went to see the state of the damage in case
4 we needed to reoccupy it.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
6 Did the Russian major report any casualties to you?
7 A. It transpired that as a result of that attack, some of the people
8 at the funeral tried to take cover in the old PAPA 3. It used to have
9 sandbagged walls which you could then get behind for safety.
10 Unfortunately, when we moved, we took everything with us. Some civilians
11 tried to take cover where they thought there was sandbags, but a mortar
12 round struck the door that they were trying to go through. A 21-year-old
13 woman was killed and some men were injured.
14 When I went to look at the old building at PAPA 3, the remains of
15 the woman were still on the floor as they were the pieces that could not
16 easily be picked up by the medicine medics to clear it out. There was
17 sufficient remains left to attract wild birds who were eating the remains
18 when I arrived. These remains were in the rubble next to the door
19 and blood could be seen by the door where she had been killed.
20 Q. When did you go to attend the cemetery?
21 A. I went to that location the next day, as soon as I could go
22 there.
23 Q. And did you recall the exact time the incident took place the day
24 before as reported by your subordinate, Major Roumiantsev?
25 A. I'm not sure of the exact time. But it was in broad daylight. I
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1 couldn't say whether it was morning or afternoon.
2 Q. You told us that it was mortar fire who had caused that incident.
3 Can you be more specific, for instance, about the calibre?
4 A. It seemed that it was mortar fire because at that time there were
5 a lot of trees in the Lion Cemetery. And -- and it was also on a hill.
6 The trajectory of the weapon must have been fairly steep to clear the
7 trees and to hit the door -- it was on ground floor. And so the way that
8 it had come in, must have been a mortar, an 81 or 82-millimetre mortar. I
9 didn't find the tail of the mortar round which can be found sometimes.
10 Q. From your own observations and from what you were told by your
11 subordinates, did you form any conclusion as to where this shelling
12 originated from?
13 A. To attack the funeral, someone must have been watching to see that
14 people were in the cemetery, and someone must have been controlling the
15 fire to bring it to bear on the cemetery. The observation posts must have
16 been to the north of PAPA 3, to the area of the front line indicated by
17 the dots on the map. This area here --
18 Q. I'm sorry. It is difficult to tell exactly where you're pointing
19 at.
20 A. The forward observation officer must have been to the north of the
21 Lion Cemetery on the higher ground indicated by the dotted line on the
22 map, and he would then be able to see the cemetery and control the fire.
23 Therefore, it must have come from the north because that was the only way
24 that the cemetery could be observed. Therefore, the observer must have
25 been from the Bosnian Serb army because they held the high ground.
Page 4330
1 Q. The next day when you went to that location, did you take
2 pictures?
3 A. Yes, I did. I took pictures of where the round struck the door.
4 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the usher could please distribute Prosecution
5 Exhibit P3662. That's a -- perhaps as an indication to you, Your Honour,
6 these pictures were brought by the witness when he came to The Hague a
7 couple of days ago. So obviously these pictures are not on the exhibit
8 list, and I would respectfully ask leave that these pictures be shown.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When have they been communicated to the Defence,
10 Mr. Waespi?
11 MR. WAESPI: They were given to the Defence Friday night, the day
12 after we had received them and had made copies.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Any observations from the Defence?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. On the one hand, we are
15 drawing near the break, and on the other, in regards of the photographs,
16 in view of the fact that neither my colleague nor I were able to study
17 these documents, because they were handed over on Friday evening and we
18 were not here over the weekend, so we have not been able to look the
19 documents over. So we cannot accept them at present.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if I could assist, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: We could wait to show these pictures until the
24 Defence have had a chance perhaps during the break to have a closer look
25 at these pictures.
Page 4331
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just have a glance through the photos, and
3 the Defence has got them by now so that I at least can have a global idea
4 of what the Court is to decide upon.
5 Mr. Waespi, perhaps it would be wiser to at least give the Defence
6 during the break an opportunity to have a better look at these
7 photographs, and we'll then ask them to explain whether they need further
8 time and for what reasons, because I would not say that every photograph
9 needs a study of days in order to be prepared to cross-examine; on the
10 other hand, we would like to give an opportunity to the Defence, first, to
11 look at the photographs and perhaps give their views. If you could
12 perhaps continue at this moment to another subject so that we'll -- I
13 expect to have the break at 11.00 since we started at 9.30. Please
14 proceed.
15 MR. WAESPI: I will do so, Your Honours. Just one point of
16 clarification: These six photographs don't go beyond the witness
17 statement. It just clarifies what the witness said in words in the way of
18 pictures, but that doesn't mean that I am not waiting, in fact, until the
19 Defence has had a chance to look at these pictures.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that's what was in the back of my mind.
21 If these photographs would need a thorough study and if it would be
22 anything else than just an illustration to what the witness testifies,
23 then of course we might consider the matter in a different way. Please
24 proceed.
25 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
Page 4332
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You will remember, Your
2 Honour, that a few weeks ago I asked that our work during the week be
3 organised differently. You will remember that I asked that we work four
4 days a week. This was not possible. And as a consequence, during the
5 breaks we have, we are always busy. We try to make use of these breaks to
6 do some work. We cannot take a real break because we always have
7 something we have to do during the break, and this means that we can no
8 longer do the usual work that we would do during the break. I don't know
9 why these documents are handed over to us so late. It may be being done
10 on purpose. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as I do understand, the
12 photographs were not available to the Prosecution until -- could you
13 please be more precise, Mr. Waespi?
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Friday morning, afternoon?
16 MR. WAESPI: No, I met the witness for the first time in his hotel
17 Thursday night.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then it was clear to you the photographs would be
19 there? --
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then they should have been told to the Defence
22 at least on Friday -- not on Friday. The last day last week was Thursday
23 that we were sitting. I'm sorry for the mistake.
24 MR. WAESPI: I said I saw these pictures Thursday night in the
25 hotel and the next day we made copies and gave it to the Defence.
Page 4333
1 JUDGE ORIE: It was my mistake.
2 Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will only say that
4 today's witness made his statement on the 31st of May, 2000, and offered
5 these photographs to the Prosecution so they were available in May 2001.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We have not seen the statement. Mr. Waespi, is this
7 true, that the photographs were offered approximately ten months ago?
8 MR. WAESPI: It's correct what the defence has said.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't it have been proper to inform the Court by
10 yourself that they were offered to you already ten months ago?
11 MR. WAESPI: Unfortunately, the investigator who had taken the
12 statement didn't take them with him. And this witness, as you know, was
13 originally planned to be a witness under Rule 92 bis. So when he was
14 called, we realised that he should, being a viva voce witness, take
15 everything with him which was attached to the statement. That's the
16 reason for that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. For the time being, I would say --
18 Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence must also
20 tell you that at that time, the witness presented these photographs for
21 inspection and said he was willing to hand them over if they were required
22 so that when his statement was made, these photographs were described and
23 they were offered to the investigator.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does understand by now that whether the
Page 4334
1 photographs were in the hands of the Prosecutor or not, they at least were
2 available on the request to the Prosecution a long time ago. I invite the
3 Defence to look at the photographs during the break, and as it was
4 indicated by the Prosecution, that they would just be an illustration of
5 what the testimony is, to consider whether not objecting to them would be
6 better in order to find the truth, a better understanding, since confusion
7 hardly ever assists in preparing decisions.
8 But once you've given your point of view after the break,
9 Ms. Pilipovic, the Court will then decide on whether they are admitted in
10 evidence or not.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: If I may, Your Honours, just one last point of
13 clarification.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. WAESPI: In the witness statement which has been correctly
16 described by my colleague from the Defence, these six pictures are
17 identified and described what they portray and, of course, as we said
18 before, they were handed over later.
19 But let me, of course, continue with the next subject before the
20 break. I would like to add, though, at this juncture that together with
21 these photographs, also three reports were given to us by the witness also
22 on Thursday. And as we go along in the examination-in-chief, I will also
23 refer to these three documents, three reports. And they have the same, I
24 guess, fate, to a certain extent as the photographs, although when the
25 investigator had visited the witness in May of last year, he could not
Page 4335
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 4336
1 find those reports. But I suggest that when we go to the respective
2 subject, then we can deal with that in more detail.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, did I understand
5 properly what my learned friend has said? Am I right in concluding that
6 the Prosecution wants to tender three reports which they have also known
7 about for more than a year, but which have never been disclosed to us?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please respond, Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honours. As I said before, and as we had
10 communicated to the Defence in writing on Friday, we do intend to tender
11 these three reports, and I had just mentioned a couple of minutes ago that
12 these reports were mentioned in the witness statement, as were the
13 photographs, but we could not retrieve them because the witness, who
14 signed, who drafted these reports, could not find them and we were also
15 not able to find them in our offices.
16 So yes, they were not disclosed because we didn't have them. Once
17 we had them, that was Thursday night, we had disclosed them. As you will
18 see, Your Honours, these reports are quite short, four and five pages.
19 The battle assessment damages from two hospitals, and there is a two-page
20 report. Again, everything is mentioned quite in detail by the witness in
21 his witness statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course you may respond. I do not
24 intend to spend the next 12 minutes -- we still have until the break to
25 repeat what is quite clear to everyone by now, that is, that these reports
Page 4337
1 could not be found at that very moment. I don't know how much effort has
2 been made since then to retrieve them. But at least they have not been
3 communicated to the Defence until Thursday evening or Friday morning.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is another point I wish
5 to raise, Your Honour. It was said that these are short reports. I would
6 like to know whether they were translated into B/C/S in view of the fact
7 that they are short so that the accused can also study them during the
8 break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
10 MR. WAESPI: No, unfortunately, Your Honours, we did not have
11 time, I have to say obviously, to translate these official UN reports into
12 B/C/S.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give a decision after the break.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Mr. Harding, as part of your duties, did you carry out battle
18 damage assessment on hospitals?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. What triggered this reporting?
21 A. On the 7th of December, 1992, I was ordered by the senior
22 management officer to send the patrol to both hospitals to see the
23 conditions and to find out what had happened on an attack on the Kosevo
24 hospital. I sent my second in command, who at that time was Captain
25 MacDonald from the Canadian army. He went to Kosevo hospital and was
Page 4338
1 informed the attack the previous day had killed one nurse, injured another
2 nurse, and four males. He wrote a report I gave to the SMO, and later, on
3 the 30th and 31st of December, I conducted a battle damage assessment of
4 the Kosevo hospital and the citizens hospital.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
6 You said you made these reports to the SMO. Can you tell us who
7 the SMO is?
8 A. SMO at that time was Lieutenant Colonel Cutler from New Zealand.
9 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Your Honours, I would now ask leave that
10 these two reports can be shown to the witness so he can identify his
11 signature and also tell the findings he made.
12 I can also add in terms of translations that I recall the pretrial
13 judge, Judge Rodrigues that passages of these reports can be read out and
14 the interpreters in the booth can translate it into a language the accused
15 understands.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's better that we have a break a bit
17 earlier than usual so that we can consider the matter that is in front of
18 us.
19 We will adjourn until 11.25.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.51 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It took us as you may have noticed a few minutes more
23 than we expected to come to decisions as far as the admission into
24 evidence is concerned of photographs and some reports, military reports.
25 The problem this Chamber is faced with is the following: On the
Page 4339
1 one hand, the more material we have, not just in testimony but also in
2 visualizing what is part of the testimony, the better we might be able to
3 understand exactly what has happened. So in our search for the truth,
4 there might certainly be helpful these photographs and these documents.
5 On the other hand, if photographs and documents are presented as evidence,
6 the fairness of the trial would require that the Defence gets enough time
7 to prepare for the cross-examination of the witness who has testified
8 about these photographs and about these documents. Especially as far as
9 the photographs are concerned, it is the understanding of this Chamber
10 that they were available already quite some time ago, and no proper action
11 is taken to get them into the hands of the Prosecution itself. As far as
12 the documents are concerned, we do understand that they could not be found
13 at that very moment, and I can leave aside that at this moment whether
14 more action could have been taken to retrieve them in an earlier stage.
15 What does it mean as far as our decision is concerned? Let me
16 start with the photographs. The photographs, as we understand, are merely
17 an illustration of what the testimony of the witness will be about.
18 Therefore, it would assist the Chamber to better understand to have a look
19 at them. At the same time, Defence counsel might look at photographs in a
20 totally different way as the Prosecution does. If we would decide not to
21 admit these photographs in evidence, the Chamber misses an illustration
22 but at the same time the Defence would presumably miss an opportunity to
23 challenge what is on those photographs and by these means, also to
24 challenge the testimony of the witness. So before taking a final decision
25 on the photographs, I'd like to invite the Defence to give their point of
Page 4340
1 view, and especially in view of the illustrative character of the
2 photographs, and a possibly lost opportunity to challenge the content of
3 the photograph and also the -- perhaps the testimony of the witness.
4 I'll tell you in advance that if you continue to object, that this
5 Chamber will decide that they will not be admitted into evidence. So just
6 say that your objection stands, and it will not be admitted into
7 evidence. Nevertheless, I'd like to have your view on it. And let me add
8 just one thing: If you would lift your objection, you will have an
9 opportunity at a later stage if necessary to cross-examine the witness on
10 the photographs itself. That would mean even if this could be done only
11 not immediately, subsequent to the examination-in-chief, the Chamber will
12 allow you even if it's necessary to recall the witness in order to be
13 cross-examined on these photographs if they are admitted into evidence.
14 But again, if your objection stands, we will not admit them in
15 evidence. So it's up to you.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before I state
17 the Defence's position, have I understood you properly if I say we are
18 merely talking about photographs; we are not talking about the reports?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, indeed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then about the photographs,
21 because we examined other photographs the other day which enabled us to
22 establish a different ballistic trajectory than the other one, we will
23 accept these photographs, likewise, although we had no time to prepare for
24 them. But we accept them now, which doesn't mean that we shall also
25 accept the report.
Page 4341
1 JUDGE ORIE: Since the objection has been lifted, the photos if
2 tendered into evidence will be admitted. And if necessary, you'll have an
3 opportunity to cross-examine the witness after you have been able to
4 properly prepare for the cross-examination.
5 Let me come to the documents: The documents might not be merely
6 illustrative although we do not know for sure. At least the Defence
7 should have an opportunity to look at the context of the documents and
8 this Chamber is also of the view that on these particular
9 documents, the accused himself should have an opportunity to study them
10 thoroughly. That means that the documents will not be admitted in
11 evidence if tendered at this moment since there's no translation, since
12 the Defence has had no opportunity to study them, especially the accused
13 has had no opportunity to study them. This does not mean that they might
14 never be admitted into evidence, and they are -- the same is valid as in
15 respect of the photographs. The existence of these documents has been
16 discussed here. The witness will testify, as far as I must assume at this
17 moment, on incidents on which -- to which these documents do relate.
18 Since the documents have not been disclosed, the Defence is not in a
19 position to properly prepare for the cross-examination. Therefore,
20 whether you tender the documents in evidence or not, the Defence will have
21 anyhow the right at a later stage to have the witness recalled in order to
22 finish the cross-examination and then in full knowledge of what the
23 documents the witness was referring to, or even if he has not referred to,
24 but the incidents the witness referred to, that at least the Defence has
25 full information about what is available on these incidents to the
Page 4342
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Page 4343
1 Prosecution.
2 We would allow -- just for the sake of finding the truth, we would
3 allow if the witness would not have all details still in his mind, we
4 would allow him to read one or two lines as requested during questioning.
5 I must be quite clear to the Defence that while the documents cannot be
6 admitted into no evidence at this very moment but even if they will not be
7 put in evidence at a later stage on request of the Defence, you'll always
8 have an opportunity to finalise the cross-examination, having full
9 knowledge of what the documents are about.
10 Is that clear to both parties, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is more or less half clear,
12 Mr. President. I do not know whether this witness will be available for a
13 long time here, and I do not know if one day will suffice because I have
14 just explained it to the Registrar, even though this problem is not there,
15 that we simply have no assistance. That is, as of this evening, I won't
16 be able to work alone, and we shall again have the chronological --
17 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is such that even if it would be
18 necessary to ask the witness to come back to the Hague at a later stage.
19 Of course, if it's not necessary, let's try to prevent it. But if
20 necessary, it has to be done. Yes? Does this clarify the part you did
21 not fully understand yet?
22 It's clear to the Prosecution as well?
23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I merely wanted to say
25 that I'm taking note that at a later stage we can even imagine that a few
Page 4344
1 days later it will happen. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Or a few weeks, yes, of course. That's a practical
3 matter.
4 One moment, please.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I think, yes, the witness could be
8 recalled at a later stage if his schedule will permit that. And as you
9 know, he sort of jumped out of order appearing right now, so I'm sure that
10 could be accommodated.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just first make one remark to
12 Mr. Harding. Mr. Harding, when you might have got a feeling that we are
13 masters of your time; we are not. When I'm talking about a possible
14 recall of you as a witness, of course a suitable time both for the court,
15 for the parties, has to be found. But I just want to avoid you thinking
16 that we are masters of your life.
17 Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: And the second point is, are we allowed to put these
19 documents, these two documents, the two assessments, which were drafted by
20 the witness, just purely mark them for identification as they are, and put
21 it to the witness so he can at least identify that these were the
22 documents he had drafted?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we -- if you would ask him, let's say, to
24 read of it a few lines or whatever, if you would allow him to use it in
25 order to refresh his memory, I think it's good that they have been at
Page 4345
1 least marked for identification.
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honour. And because he brought them with
3 him, he certainly has read them over the time he was here in The Hague,
4 and he has accordingly refreshed his memory.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we presumed it would have done so.
6 If that's clear to everyone, please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: The second point about the photographs I understand
8 that you have admitted them into evidence or he can --
9 JUDGE ORIE: You tendered them, but there is no objection any more
10 so you can expect us to admit them into evidence. You also know if
11 necessary usually the decision on admission of evidence is taken after the
12 cross-examining the witness perhaps in this specific -- under these
13 specific circumstances, we should do it as is normally done, as soon as
14 you tender them into evidence that we decide on the admission in evidence,
15 and then of course the Defence might request the Court to recall the
16 witness if they cannot finalise the cross-examination, conclude their
17 cross-examination today or tomorrow, especially in respect of these
18 photographs.
19 Please proceed, then, Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. What I am tendering
21 now is indeed to tender all the exhibits as far as they can be at the end
22 of eventual cross-examination, and I will discuss these photographs as
23 soon as we have finished the subject we just started before the break,
24 those were the hospital assessments.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 4346
1 MR. WAESPI:
2 Q. So, please, Mr. Harding, let's go back to these hospital damage
3 assessments which we talked about at length now in a procedural way.
4 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could be shown now these two potential
5 exhibits, I have to say.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we still call them documents.
7 MR. WAESPI: Documents. Thank you, Your Honours. Exhibit 3660
8 and 3661.
9 JUDGE ORIE: There are extra copies. Have the booths been
10 provided with copies, especially if you would read one or more lines?
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that was certainly intended to do so, that the
12 witness receives also a copy.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but have the translations -- I see some nodding
14 yes, no. Perhaps.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President. I'm sorry. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone has a copy.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The French booth, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. First let's turn to the first report, the exhibit or the document,
21 rather, Number 3661, that's the document titled "Battle damage assessment,
22 citizens hospital, operations effects," and the date is 2nd of January,
23 1993.
24 Now, Mr. Harding, do you know another name for the citizens
25 hospital?
Page 4347
1 A. Yes, it also referred to as the "French hospital."
2 Q. Thank you. Now, perhaps as suggested by Judge Orie, the presiding
3 judge, you could perhaps read the introductory portion of this document
4 so we can get a feel to this point, and perhaps we can even narrow it down
5 to the second part of the introductory comment where you start with "I
6 ensured...
7 A. All of this paragraph?
8 Q. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, it is our understanding that you would
10 examine the witness on the general parts of it without using the document,
11 and use the document only if it comes to some specific details. I don't
12 know whether you'd regard, especially the second part of the introduction
13 in such a detail. If yes, please proceed. If no, please examine the
14 witness in the ordinary way. It will not be tendered into evidence as you
15 know; it will just be marked for identification.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes. One minute, please, Your Honour.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. WAESPI:
19 Q. First of all, Mr. Harding, these two reports, did you draft those
20 two reports?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And these two reports, I mentioned the first one, the battle
23 damage assessment, citizens hospital, operational effects of 2nd of
24 January, 1993, that's a document marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3661. And
25 the second report is a document now called Prosecution Exhibit Number
Page 4348
1 3660, and it's entitled "Battle damage assessment of Kosevo hospital,
2 operational effects."
3 Now, without referring to these documents, can you tell what the
4 role was you saw in yourself when you visited these two hospitals?
5 A. I was in Sarajevo as a military observer, and I decided that I
6 would conduct these battle damage assessments with a view to identifying
7 military actions that had been taken against the two buildings and the
8 effect that that military action had on the operational capabilities of
9 the hospitals. I was not there as part of a UNHCR or as an NGO
10 operation. It was purely from a military point of view as I was a
11 military observer.
12 Q. In conducting these two reports, you said before the break that
13 you went to see the two hospitals. For how long did you stay there, did
14 you talk to people, did you visit locations?
15 A. When I went to both hospitals, I was met by the directors of both
16 hospitals and the senior members of his staff. I was then given a tour of
17 the whole hospital complex. It would have taken half a day to cover the
18 whole area, Kosevo being spread out more than the citizens hospital.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
20 Now, in your recollection, was -- and now turning to the citizens
21 hospital or also French hospital as you had called it -- was the hospital
22 ever marked?
23 A. Yes, that hospital had been marked. It had a large white flag
24 with a large red cross, and the flag was hanging from the
25 hospital from the top floor at the centre on the south-facing part of the
Page 4349
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Page 4350
1 building.
2 MR. WAESPI: One moment, please, Your Honours.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. Let me just finish with one question. You may in fact have
6 answered that already. After you have done the reports, you have filed it
7 or you have given it to your superiors or to whom?
8 A. As soon as I had finished the reports, which is one or two days
9 after the inspection, I gave them to the SMO, Lieutenant-Colonel Cutler.
10 And then he gave them direct to General Morrillon's staff, and I
11 understand that action was taken as a result of the reports.
12 Q. And do you know what kind of action General Morrillon took after
13 this report was received?
14 A. He arranged and ordered for a large generator to be placed on the
15 grounds of Kosevo hospital in order to provide electricity to the heating
16 system and also for critical elements within the hospital. It was a very
17 large generator, and it was white with "UN" written on it.
18 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, if I may, I would now move on to a
19 different subject.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. WAESPI: I would like Mr. Harding to talk about the use of
22 tanks.
23 Q. You have already mentioned the tanks you saw on the ABiH side, and
24 we can come back to that later. Talking about tanks from the Bosnian Serb
25 side, let me take you to the 24th of September, 1992. Do you recall where
Page 4351
1 were you at that date?
2 A. Yes, I was in -- I was at the PAPA 5 observation post which was in
3 the new position number one where it was when I first arrived. The PAPA 5
4 I referred to was on the hill directly north of the PTT building.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
6 Can you describe to us what you saw when you were at PAPA 5.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 37, line
9 6, there is a problem with the interpretation. It seems to me that
10 something has not been interpreted quite correctly. Urgent, an
11 extraordinary situation, that's the word that was used, an emergency, and
12 I would like to draw your attention to this.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I do not exactly understand what you -- you say
14 there's a problem on page 37, line 6. What is missing in the -- is it the
15 French translation?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am speaking of the French
17 transcript. I am telling you what I heard, and this is not what is in the
18 French transcript. So I wish to mention it to avoid any misunderstandings
19 later on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it vital for our understanding at this
21 moment or can we leave it to those who work on the transcript this
22 evening?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm drawing
24 attention to it now because I feel it is important. If we are speaking of
25 an emergency situation, we can draw the conclusion that this was caused by
Page 4352
1 shelling and it's important to say so. The English transcript does not
2 mention an emergency situation anyway in the context of the testimony
3 about generators that can be used in extraordinary situations, in
4 emergency situations. The Defence raises such issues only when it
5 considers them to be important. If you feel it is not important, we
6 apologise.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know exactly what the French transcript reads
8 so that I can compare it with the English or?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not actually
10 have the French transcript in front of me, but I know what I heard from
11 the French booth.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Special attention will be paid to page 37, line 6,
13 and we will be able to compare it, if there's any reason to come back to
14 it once they have been corrected, as you know that happens overnight,
15 please draw my attention to it and assist me again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Mr. Harding, can you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw on
19 24th of September, 1992 while you were at PAPA 5?
20 A. I was at PAPA 5, which is on the hill north of PT, looking south
21 down the road which was known as the airport road, which led directly to
22 the airport. This road --
23 Q. Can you perhaps move the map a little bit so Your Honours can see
24 where the airport is.
25 A. Zoom out some more. I was here at PAPA 5 looking south, and I
Page 4353
1 could see directly down this road which leads to the airport.
2 Q. Can you, perhaps, use your marker and draw the line where the road
3 is located to which you are referring.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. The Witness just drew a line, I understand left -- a couple of
6 centimetres left of the road to which you are referring to. Is that
7 correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Please indicate it by an R, saying it is the road you just talked
10 about.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. I was in PAPA 5. I could see straight down the road marked as an
14 R. I watched five T-55 tanks come down the road and head north. They
15 were in a line astern, one behind the other. The barrels of the tanks
16 were pointing towards the east and to the west. They had no infantry
17 support. They drove down the road firing at the buildings left and right,
18 some as close as 50 metres. After a while, they turned around and went
19 back down the road, that being down heading south continuing down the road
20 which goes towards Lukavica.
21 Q. Were you -- I'm sorry.
22 A. As they were firing, the empty cases from the armament were
23 discharged from the tank, in other words, thrown out on to the road and on
24 to the sides of the roads. When the tanks had gone, you drive down the
25 road which is also the main road to get to the airport, there was in
Page 4354
1 excess of 100 empty shell cases, the shell cases being at least half a
2 metre long. That meant that each tank would have fired around about 20
3 rounds. And those empty cases were there for some weeks after, and they
4 would being run over and just pushed off the road.
5 Q. Mr. Harding, could you see any military targets besides the road
6 or were these military targets to which the tanks fired at, in your
7 opinion?
8 A. From my position, at PAPA 5, I could see no obvious targets for
9 the tanks. There was no infantry support for those tanks, if an operation
10 was underway. I've driven down that road many times. It was very much a
11 No-Man's Land in that the buildings had received substantial damage, and
12 there was little gain in trying to move around them because they gave
13 little cover. So to answer your question, no, I could see no reason for
14 those tanks to do what they did.
15 Q. Did the tanks fire again when they turned back and went the other
16 way around?
17 A. As they were moving backwards and forwards on the road, they were
18 just firing, so when they decided to withdraw, they just withdrew up the
19 road and ceased firing at that stage.
20 Q. How long did this firing last? I think you used the term "for
21 quite some time."
22 A. I would need to -- the exact time would be in my diary. But it
23 wasn't a quick drive up the road and fire. They slowly came up the road,
24 started to fire, occasionally moving, and then they just withdrew. I
25 could see no reason for them to be -- to do that. Because when they had
Page 4355
1 gone, there was no change in any situation in that area.
2 Q. You told us that the closest building was 50 metres away from the
3 tanks. Do you recall how far the furthest building was away from the
4 tanks which was hit by the tanks?
5 A. From what I could see from that position, all the targets were
6 fairly close because it's very flat where the tanks were. And on the map
7 you can see there are buildings either side of the road. Although they
8 were damaged, it meant that the line of sight from the tank could not be
9 far because the buildings were in the way. And the tank only fires at a
10 direct weapon; in other words, it has to see the target in order to hit it
11 as opposed to artillery that does not need to see the target because it
12 can fire overhead. But the tanks was a straight line, so from 50 metres,
13 maybe out to 300, 400. But not very far because of the buildings all
14 around there.
15 Q. You described five tanks doing this action. Was that a
16 controlled, commanded, coordinated action, in your opinion?
17 A. Well, to have five tanks moving must have taken some orders. A
18 troop of tanks, I did not feel it was one or two individuals' own actions
19 because each vehicle will have a crew, and also there was a danger that
20 one of those -- one or more of those tanks could get damaged, as along
21 that road there was already one T-55 that had been taken out and that was
22 damaged and was seen regularly on television as it was at an angle of 30
23 to 40 degrees off the side of the road. So I think if those tanks were to
24 go down there, on the word of just one person, a loss of a tank would have
25 been quite significant as they are a key asset.
Page 4356
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Page 4357
1 Q. Let me move to a different subject, a different weapon system.
2 Mr. Harding, have you seen the use of multilaunch rocket system in
3 Sarajevo?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. Can you, in fact, tell the difference between this system and
6 artillery or mortar? I mean, can you tell the difference? What would you
7 put into this position to say that? Do you have experience in that?
8 A. Yes, I have experience of all three of those weapon systems. The
9 main one that you mentioned, artillery, it became common to hear artillery
10 flying overhead. And you had a constant but very faint noise as the round
11 went over. It was only when that noise changed that you knew it was in
12 descent and may come close to you. But when it was in transit, it was a
13 very faint noise. I could compare that to a multilaunch rocket system
14 because -- it's not going to do. There was an occasion where I took my
15 second in command to see the old PAPA 1 location here. At that time, we
16 continued passed it, around to where my marker is, directly west of the
17 old PAPA 1.
18 On this position, on that day, we had been observing
19 shelling, and the shells were landing to the west of PAPA 1. It was
20 particularly memorable because as we stood here, there was one artillery
21 round that we would refer to as a "drop short" in that it came into its
22 descent before its intended target. And it landed very close to myself
23 and the 2IC, my second in command. On that day, as we were walking back,
24 there was a multilaunch rocket system that was fired over our heads, and
25 you could hear several projectiles, the flight of them was slightly
Page 4358
1 staggered. They had a high-pitch whine as they went overhead. They then
2 came overhead, and we looked to the east, towards our headquarters here as
3 marked previously in the map as HQ. We then saw the multiple impacts of
4 the multilaunch rocket system land east of our headquarters, and we
5 estimated at 3 to 400
6 metres.
7 From where we were to where they landed, we could draw a straight
8 line as indicated by the mark, my marker, like that. So we were at the
9 old PAPA 1. They landed east of our headquarters. Therefore, they were
10 fired from the northwest, which goes over to Stup.
11 Q. Do you recall the date this incident happened? Perhaps the month
12 would be sufficient.
13 A. That occurred on the 8th of December, 1992.
14 Q. And you said they landed a couple of metres beside the
15 headquarters of the PAPA. Can you mark it on your map, please.
16 A. Yes. From the distance that we were observing, I would say it is
17 3 to 400 metres east of the headquarters. How would you like that
18 marked?
19 Q. Perhaps, again --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have by now a range that if something is
21 marked, if two points are there and it says that it's 3 or 400 metres
22 east, that we are able to measure that on a map. I mean, it's -- unless
23 it's not really east, then of course it might be different. Perhaps would
24 you first ask the witness that. If it's really east, then we can just
25 count 3, 400 metres east from the headquarters.
Page 4359
1 THE WITNESS: It is east of the PAPA headquarters, because from
2 our position we could see it was the other side of PAPA headquarters and
3 only estimate 3, 400 metres because from our range, it was quite difficult
4 to observe.
5 MR. WAESPI:
6 Q. Were you able to discern any military target they were firing at
7 on this occasion?
8 A. At that occasion and at that time, areas east of our headquarters
9 were just civilians, although there were military personnel around with no
10 known military concentration and there was no known military operation
11 going on at that time.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Harding, in the Sarajevo military theatre, who used this
13 rocket artillery, multilaunch rocket system?
14 A. It came from the Bosnian Serb army.
15 Q. Can you tell the Judges how this system works and what sort of
16 target it would be used against.
17 A. Multilaunch rocket system fires numerous munitions that are
18 slightly staggered -- at a slightly staggered interval and are used for an
19 area target. In other words, they are not for pinpoint one trench; they
20 are for an area that can be a hundred metres square or something like
21 that. And there are numerous rocket-propelled pieces of artillery, and
22 the number of them can vary according to the individual weapon system, as
23 they do range from small ones which can be towed by a vehicle such as a
24 Land Rover, the larger ones are mounted on the backs of trucks. They are
25 an area weapon, not a point weapon.
Page 4360
1 Q. When you say, Mr. Harding, an "area weapon," is that a suitable
2 weapon in an area -- to fire into an area where the possibility of the
3 presence of civilians is?
4 A. No, not in an urban area such as that, and you cannot guarantee
5 that they will land exactly where you want them to land. So no.
6 Q. How was it used by the Bosnian Serb army? Was it used according
7 to the way you think it should be used or was it used in a different way?
8 For instance, the sequence of shots.
9 A. Well, it would normally be used for an area target which is known
10 enemy or troop concentrations, not endanger your own forces. But in this
11 case, I would say there was no known military forces, although the weapon
12 was fired correctly as in operationally, it fired all of its munitions at
13 a staggered interval, but into an area where it was predominantly
14 civilians. And it was not in support of a military action. In other
15 words, if there was an advance, then to clear the ground ahead of the
16 advance, you could see the multilaunch rocket system. But there was no
17 advance. It was no support of any military action. It was merely firing
18 weapons into an urban area occupied by civilians.
19 Q. On that occasion, 8th of December, 1992, how many rockets were
20 fired?
21 A. To the best of my recollection, I could say it would be not less
22 than nine. But we couldn't count them individually, because we had just
23 recently been subjected to shelling ourselves when we had the drop short.
24 But I would say not less than nine, which also aided the identification of
25 a multilaunch rocket system rather than artillery.
Page 4361
1 Q. Are you aware whether single shots were being fired using this
2 weapon system?
3 A. Single shots from that weapon system may well be able to occur,
4 but I haven't heard single shots from a multilaunch rocket system. That
5 would be the job of artillery. You'd fire them all together, as that's
6 the way that the system works.
7 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the sound of this weapon system.
8 A. As I mentioned earlier on, we knew the sound of artillery, both in
9 its transit and its descent. Mortar rounds usually do not give any
10 warning because of their steep descent, whereas these weapons had a
11 high-pitch scream, I suppose, would be the best description of it, or a
12 howl, as they went overhead. They made a very distinctive noise, so they
13 were very easy to identify as not being artillery and being a weapon of
14 special effect rather than the normal artillery that went over. So it was
15 a scream or a howl. And as there was not less than nine, those were
16 easier to identify them as they all went over that maybe one second or one
17 and a half second intervals.
18 Q. From your experience of being there and having seen, observing,
19 yourself, you talked about the civilians, do you know what the effect of
20 this weapon system was on the civilians in Sarajevo?
21 A. I did not follow up the observation of the rocket system, and I
22 did not go and inspect the damage. But from what we observed from the old
23 PAPA 1, the damage to buildings, the roofs, the tiles, and other such like
24 damage.
25 Q. Is this system a significant weapon? Is it more important than
Page 4362
1 others in the arsenal of an army?
2 A. Normally, I would consider this weapon to be significant because
3 it uses a specific type of ammunition. There may be a lot of artillery
4 ammunition or tank ammunition that these weapons are not common and they
5 do use a special ammunition. So I would consider this weapon to be
6 considered as an important fire support weapon because of logistics needed
7 to support it.
8 Q. The rounds themselves, are they expensive?
9 A. Monetarily, I would consider them probably more expensive,
10 although I have not had cause to actually work out how much in money terms
11 that they would cost. So I don't know.
12 Q. Maybe the last question: Could you form, from your experiences,
13 an opinion about the psychological effect this weapon had on the
14 civilians? The weapon, and also the way it was used.
15 A. The psychological effect on the civilians was usually hit by
16 the use of single rounds of artillery and mortar. This weapon was not
17 used that often, but it did not give any warning for those that were the
18 target, whereas single rounds from artillery, a mortar, which was common,
19 had a greater effect on the psychology of the civilian population.
20 Q. Now, let's turn to another system, weapon system, anti-aircraft
21 artillery. Are you familiar with anti-aircraft artillery, and can you
22 describe its use and effect to us.
23 A. Anti-aircraft artillery can range in calibre from 12.7
24 millimetres, often referred to as a "heavy machine-gun" through to 20
25 millimetres and increased to 56 millimetres. The idea of anti-aircraft
Page 4363
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Page 4364
1 artillery would be to put ammunition in the air ahead of an aircraft so
2 that the aircraft flies into it, rather than trying to chase an aircraft.
3 The ammunition would have an explosive head, so if it would hit the
4 aircraft it would cause damage to the aircraft as well as penetrating into
5 the aircraft.
6 Q. Now, you have described these calibres. Did the -- as far as
7 you're aware, did the Bosnian Serb army possess this type of artillery,
8 the weapons and the calibres you had mentioned?
9 A. Yes, they did. And they could often be heard because the larger
10 the calibre, the slower the rate of fire. And throughout my term, they
11 had high rates of fire, from the smaller calibres, 12.7, to a slow rate of
12 fire which is steady dug from the 40 or 56- millimetre.
13 Q. Now I take it from what you have just said that you have
14 experienced anti-aircraft artillery yourself while you were in Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes, I have experience of a 20 millimetre anti-aircraft artillery
16 when I first arrived in PAPA 5. That was used on the building next door.
17 And I've seen it used on the other buildings, and it could be identified
18 because the rounds, once they exploded and had penetrated a wall, had lost
19 their kinetic energy, you could fire them into the building and you could
20 pick them up. On the rounds, they had the calibre, 20 millimetres, and it
21 also had Cyrillic letters on it, which I didn't know what they were.
22 Q. Mr. Harding, can you perhaps take us to one incident where you saw
23 the use of anti-aircraft artillery yourself?
24 A. There was one occasion where I was at the observation post at PAPA
25 6 as I indicated on the map with a number 6. South of the location were
Page 4365
1 the Bosnian Serb army. At that one occasion, I was standing at PAPA 6
2 when a weapon, anti-aircraft artillery of 12.7 millimetres opened fire
3 over my head and straight down into the city. You could clearly see where
4 the rounds were landing because they have explosive heads, and you could
5 see the white flash. Also, when a weapon like that fires, it has a zone
6 where it lands, which you could call the beaten zone. All the
7 rounds will be spread out. They are not one behind the other.
8 On that occasion, we saw the rounds landing on the roof tops of
9 the city. The weapon then traversed towards the east, firing as it did,
10 as it traversed you could see all around hitting the roofs with white
11 flashes. It then traversed back, so it's firing directly over our heads
12 again, and also the rounds moved backwards and forwards as the weapon was
13 traversed or elevated up and down.
14 Once you'd returned, once you'd swept down the city and back
15 again, then it stopped firing.
16 Q. Can you please mark on the map the areas which was covered by this
17 weapon, and also a line to indicate that traversing, if you may.
18 A. It is difficult to try and assess it with this map. They would
19 have fired towards where I have put the letter "I" for impact, here,
20 traverse to the right, traverse to the left, and then stopped. So it
21 would have been an area -- this is an estimation as it's difficult to
22 show.
23 Q. Just for the record, the witness just moved his pointing stick
24 between the outer two ends, the two 0s of the symbol he just drew below
25 the letter I.
Page 4366
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Harding, did you just use a black
2 or a blue?
3 THE WITNESS: Blue.
4 These rows to represent the beaten zone where the ammunition was
5 landing, landing in here across.
6 MR. WAESPI:
7 Q. Now, where was the source of fire in relation to the positions of
8 the Bosnian Serb army?
9 A. The fire came from directly south of PAPA 6. It's a very steep
10 hill. Somewhere in the area of the arrow that I've drawn. It was very
11 difficult to see because we are on the treeline here, and you can see
12 from the contours on the map, this is very steep. And he was up here.
13 Q. Again, for the record, the witness just drew an arrow pointing
14 upwards on the map, north I guess, about a hand south of number 6.
15 And are these -- is this area controlled by the Bosnian Serb army
16 where the source of fire originated from?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, from your observation point, number 6, did you observe any
19 military target the weapon was engaged to?
20 A. No. There was no military activity at PAPA 6. The ground south
21 of PAPA 6 is so steep, we would have noticed if there's any military
22 activity there. And there was definitely no military activity within the
23 city centre, which is where the rounds and the ammunition landed. It was
24 not prompted; it was not in support of any military action.
25 Q. Now, my last question on this point: You have described the
Page 4367
1 beaten zone of the anti-aircraft artillery. Given that, in Sarajevo, is
2 it suitable for the use in an area like what we have at hand?
3 A. I would say no, because the longer the range, the larger the
4 beaten zone. In other words, the longer the range, the more spread out
5 the ammunition will get. This weapon was working at its maximum range,
6 and so totally unsuitable for a military action. But there was no
7 military action in which to support, so it just fired for no reason at
8 all, which makes it all the more memorable because we were looking for
9 something. But it was just -- nothing there. Started for no reason.
10 Q. The gunner, in your experience, did he have to use a mechanical
11 traverse device to do what you have described?
12 A. The traverse towards the east and then the west appeared to be
13 fairly smooth, and so either the weapon was mounted on some form of
14 platform, because if it wasn't, the recoil of it would mean the rounds
15 would be much further spread than they actually were. And because they
16 were fairly close, we could follow it as it went up the city and back
17 again. It would suggest to me it was on some form of platform with a
18 traversing wheels and traversing mechanism. So yes.
19 Q. Can you explain that to us laymen what such a mechanism would look
20 like.
21 A. The weapon would be mounted in a cradle, and the traverse
22 mechanism would be by turning handles, and that handle would make it
23 traverse left and right. There would be another handle to make the
24 weapon, the barrel go up and go down. In other words, fire into the city
25 at left and right.
Page 4368
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think I
3 must intervene because this witness is describing things which he did not
4 see. One would say he is relying on the hearsay, and he turns almost into
5 an expert. And on the top of it, he's making assumptions. I'm sorry I
6 intervened, but I think that now the line has been crossed which the
7 Defence cannot accept.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Well, first of all, I think Your Honours it's not
10 hearsay because he's recounting what he has seen or what his impressions
11 were. And second, he is a trained military officer and he can certainly
12 make inferences from what he saw in the field. I also think he has
13 answered the question already.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving the decision, may I remind you that we
16 are in a bit of odd system as far as law of evidence is concerned. Since
17 there's no jury here, it will not always be possible to prevent a question
18 from being put to the witness, and sometimes as in this case it has
19 already been answered. So if you are objecting, we also consider this an
20 objection against the use of this information for our considerations.
21 It's known in all systems that there is always a type of a grey area where
22 experience, especially if it's specialist experience, touches upon whether
23 where we really get into the area where only an expert could answer any
24 questions. This Chamber is of the opinion that, first of all, it's no
25 hearsay because he didn't give any source of another person telling the
Page 4369
1 witness what he has testified.
2 Apart from that, that he gave a possible explanation for the way
3 he saw the pattern of the effect of this firing at the city, and the
4 Chamber thinks that this is still within the area where an experienced
5 military man can draw some inferences. But we come close to the field
6 where expertise would have been needed.
7 Please proceed. My decision was that the objection was denied.
8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. How much -- can you give us an estimate of how much ammunition was
10 spent by this gunner or this weapon at this occasion you have just told
11 us?
12 A. It would be very difficult for me to specify a number of rounds
13 that were used, but I have experience of firing, deploying, and
14 controlling automatic weapons up to 12.7 millimetres, firing them myself
15 as well as getting my troops to fire them. And I would have estimated
16 that it would be between 100 and 150 rounds if the weapon was at 12.7
17 millimetres.
18 Q. You already gave sort of an indication of how large or how small,
19 whatever you prefer, the area was, which was covered by the gun. Can you
20 give us an estimate, perhaps, comparing it to -- in metres or to whatever
21 you feel comfortable with?
22 A. The beaten zone from top to bottom or north to south as marked on
23 here would have been about 200 metres, two football pitch lengths, and
24 then that area moved to the east and then back to the west. So the
25 furthest would be -- the distance between the shortest and the furthest
Page 4370
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Page 4371
1 would have been about 200 metres.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.
3 Have you seen this weapon being fired at other occasions than what
4 you just told us?
5 A. There have been numerous other occasions where I had seen heavy
6 weapons such as this firing. They are very distinctive. They have a
7 tracer burn so you can see the rounds in flight, and they have explosive
8 heads so you know that it's a heavy weapon, rather than a smaller
9 machine-gun. And I saw it on numerous times and normally just against
10 buildings.
11 Q. Perhaps we can go into and maybe even finish another subject
12 before the break. Did you become aware at some point that the ABiH was
13 firing with a mortar from the Kosevo hospital?
14 A. It was reported that the Kosevo hospital had been attacked. I
15 then found out from Colonel Cutler, I think it was, that a staff sergeant
16 had been refueling the generator that had been positioned at Kosevo
17 hospital. Whilst he was there, he saw mortars being fired from within the
18 confines of the hospital. And if the hospital was attacked, it would have
19 been as a direct result of the mortars within the hospital grounds.
20 Q. Do you recall the date this incident had happened?
21 A. It was in to January 1993.
22 Q. And when you say mortars were at the Kosevo hospital, do you
23 know the numbers or the number of these mortars?
24 A. As a result of that, I went to the Kosevo hospital. I looked at
25 the area that the staff sergeant would have been able to see, but I could
Page 4372
1 see no sign of any mortar activity, because they make a very distinctive
2 mark on the ground where their base plate digs in. And if it's on tarmac,
3 it would slide and be dangerous, so it has to be on safe ground.
4 Q. What conclusions did you draw from this observation?
5 A. If there was offensive action taken as a direct result of those
6 mortars, it can be referred to as counterbattery fire. However, when I
7 went to the hospital, there was fresh damage as it was only a week or two
8 after I conducted a battle damage assessment. And had the hospital been
9 damaged by a 76 millimetre anti-tank rounds or armour-piercing rounds, and
10 some of these rounds were presented to me, these rounds had hit the
11 building very high up. So even if they had been fired whilst the mortar
12 was firing, they would have been completely ineffective.
13 Six or seven rounds had hit the hospital, and obviously they had
14 been fired by a weapon aimed at the hospital rather than at any mortars
15 that may or may not have been there. So the hospital had been attacked,
16 and it was not a suitable weapon to use as counterbattery fire.
17 Q. If I read the transcript of what you just said, one sentence
18 starts, it's the second -- third sentence. "And had the hospital been
19 damaged by a 76 millimetre anti-tank rounds or armour-piercing rounds, and
20 some of these rounds were presented to me, these rounds had hit the
21 building very high up."
22 Can you just clarify? Perhaps it's a misstatement. What you
23 meant by that?
24 A. By high up, I mean that if it was counterbattery fire, it would be
25 aimed at something on the ground, but it obviously wasn't because it was
Page 4373
1 on the first or second storey of the building. So if it had been fired at
2 the same time as the mortars were firing, there was no way at all that it
3 would ever have hit the mortars because it was just fired at the
4 building. The building was the target, not any mortars.
5 Q. You said that you checked the area around the Kosevo Hospital and
6 tried to find the location of the mortar. And you mentioned these
7 markings, the plate marks. So did you observe or did you not observe any
8 such marks?
9 A. I found no marks on the ground to suggest that a mortar had been
10 firing.
11 Q. So if a mortar was fired, apparently the evidence is if that
12 mortar was fired, what kind of mortar use would that have been?
13 A. The staff sergeant didn't specify a calibre, but if it was going
14 to be noticed it was coming from the hospital, I'd expect it to be 81 or
15 82 millimetre mortar. But I didn't see any base plate marks, and
16 therefore it must have been mounted on something different.
17 Q. Perhaps a last subject, a brief one before the break, if the break
18 is taking place at 1.00?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 1.00.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Did you ever hear overhead the sound of a mortar while the
22 projectile is travelling through the air?
23 A. Yes, I have. Happened on one occasion. I was at PAPA 1, which is
24 on the hill just below the television transmitter and has been previously
25 described on the map the triangle numbered number 1. South of me, down
Page 4374
1 the hill, ABiH fired some mortars, and they were targeted to the north.
2 As they travelled up on their trajectory, they flew past me, and we could
3 hear them outbound, where normally, you would not hear that. It was only
4 because they were firing up and over the hill, that we could hear them.
5 That was the only time I heard mortars outbound.
6 Q. Did you ever see mortars employed by the ABiH mounted on trucks?
7 A. No. I never saw any, and I never had any reported to me by any of
8 the observation posts or the UNMOs on patrol.
9 Q. Were you specifically asked to watch for these kind of weapons?
10 A. Yes, we were, because it had been reported they were in operation,
11 but none of us had ever seen them. And so we were told to keep a watch
12 for them to prove or deny all the accusations that were being made at the
13 time.
14 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I think that would be a convenient
15 time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that's a convenient time to you, we will
17 adjourn now until 2.30 in the same courtroom.
18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.57 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour. Just as an introductory
22 comment, the fourth document which was brought to your attention given to
23 the Defence on Friday was proposed Exhibit Number P3659. That's this
24 two-page after incident report of 31st October, 1992. Again, this
25 document was brought with the witness on Thursday, and with your
Page 4375
1 permission, when we go into that incident, I will at the end show it to
2 him, whether he recognises the document, and I will suggest respectfully
3 that this document shares the same fate as the other two documents.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as I indicated before, perhaps later on when all
5 the rights of the Defence are observed properly, then of course whatever
6 these documents can be may be tendered into evidence. But at this very
7 moment since not yet, but marked for identification, fine.
8 Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. WAESPI:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Harding. Were you present in Sarajevo for the
11 Serb Orthodox New Year's Eve?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. Do you recall the date?
14 A. No. I don't know the exact date of it, but I certainly remember
15 it.
16 Q. Approximately which month, which year?
17 A. Early January.
18 Q. And which year?
19 A. In 1993.
20 Q. Now, you said that you certainly remember it. Why?
21 A. The sheer amount of fire that occurred to commemorate or to
22 recognise the new year it seemed that every weapon around the city opened
23 up at the same time of all calibres. I was at the PAPA HQ, and we could
24 see -- looking out the windows, we could see tracer all over the sky. My
25 observation post then reported on the radio that there was a lot of
Page 4376
1 activity, and you could hear in the background on their radio messages the
2 amount of fire that was actually happening as they were calling it in.
3 But there was so much that you couldn't indicate exactly where it was
4 going because it was going everywhere at the same time. And it lasted for
5 a considerable time.
6 Q. Can you be more precise in terms of "considerable time"?
7 A. Well, you might expect it just to go on for 30 seconds or
8 something, just to commemorate the actual time. But it must have gone on
9 for at least five to eight minutes of automatic fire of all calibres, and
10 so I would say that that's a considerable time, bearing in mind the amount
11 of ammunition that would be expended during that time.
12 Q. By automatic weapon by all kinds, can you name a few of the
13 weapons you thought were part of that?
14 A. Well, it would start from small calibre, 7.65, rifles right
15 through the automatic series, 12.7, and there were some heavy weapons
16 firing in the background. So I would say probably about 40 millimeters, I
17 suppose. The anti-aircraft weapons, they had a constant discharge of
18 ammunition, steady note going off. And also the amount of tracer that was
19 flying around, you could clearly see it, so it was from the larger
20 calibre, the 12.7s or the 20 millimeters, that sort of size.
21 Q. Can you tell us when exactly this fire was starting?
22 A. For the new year. It would have been at -- it was midnight.
23 Because it caught me by surprise. When we asked what was going on, that
24 was when we were informed that that's what it was.
25 Q. And how much of this fire which you just described was in fact
Page 4377
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Page 4378
1 hitting the city?
2 A. From my observation posts, they were saying that it was going -- a
3 lot of it was into the air, but also by default it has got to come down.
4 And some of it was into the city. So I would say 50, 60 per cent was
5 going down and the rest was going up into the air to illuminate. So a
6 considerable amount of ammunition was going into the city.
7 Q. And by city, which parts of the city are you referring to?
8 A. From that, I would say from PAPA HQ and to the east, to the area
9 known as Stari Grad. Although there was fire up to the western end, up
10 towards PTT and Nedzarici, and [indiscernible]. There wasn't as much as
11 down in the city.
12 Q. So you are saying that 50 to 60 per cent of the projectiles or
13 the -- whatever -- fire was directed into the city?
14 A. Yes, by 50 to 60 per cent directed down from the hillside
15 downwards as opposed to up, up on to the hills, into the air, sorry.
16 Q. Let me move to another incident. That's the 31st of October,
17 1992. Can you tell us where you were at that time.
18 A. On the 31st of October, 1992, I was in the PAPA headquarters, in
19 the building adjacent to the Presidency.
20 Q. And can you tell us what happened that day.
21 A. I was on radio watch in the headquarters, which just means that
22 I'm manning the radio, making notes of all the reports. At 1000 hours
23 exactly, artillery started to land on the city. One artillery round
24 landed just outside our office. A few minutes later, a woman came into
25 our office and was shouting and waving her arms around. At that time, I
Page 4379
1 didn't have an interpreter, so I stood up, I picked up my rucksack which
2 is full of medical supplies. She then started to indicate to me to go
3 with her. I went downstairs, and I was presented with a number of
4 casualties that had just been hit by the artillery round just outside the
5 office. There was three of them at that time. I looked over the three of
6 them, and I was joined by an Argentinian major who had been with
7 me, and we both started to give first aid to those casualties. As we were
8 administering to those three, another two were brought in. I had a quick
9 look at those and dealt with one of them, which was a fairly simple
10 shrapnel wound. I then moved on to a fairly elderly man. He had shrapnel
11 wounds in his legs, in his stomach, and he was rapidly going into shock.
12 I administered first aid to his wounds, but then I was informed that there
13 was only one or two ambulances in the city, and that they would not be
14 coming to my location, and decided that it was going to be a considerable
15 time before I could get this casualty to the hospital because of the
16 amount of ammunition that was landing on the city, it was a significant
17 barrage. A policeman then volunteered to drive a car, so we took this
18 elderly man on a stretcher and placed him in the back of a police car.
19 To help the stretcher, I got in the back of the car and carried
20 the end of it in so I was against the driver's seat and the passenger
21 seat. When I got out, everybody else had disappeared, so I had to get
22 back into the car. I held on to the casualty, on to the stretcher, and I
23 was leaning out the back of the Volkswagen Golf to stop the
24 door from coming down and crunching on to his legs. We then drove at
25 speed through the city to the Kosevo Hospital where he was taken by the
Page 4380
1 medical staff. Whilst I was there, some press people took some
2 photographs. I then got back into the Volkswagen Golf drove back through
3 the artillery bars. You could clearly see all the dust and debris. You
4 could hear the rounds falling all around. We drove back through that,
5 back to the headquarters where I resumed my radio watch.
6 Because UN personnel had assisted casualties and the press had
7 taken a photograph, I wrote a report of the incident and gave it to at
8 that time it was Colonel Mole so that if anything was said that the UN
9 were helping transport casualties, he knew why it happened and he would
10 then be able to answer the questions at the time, rather than have to find
11 out if regulations had been broken.
12 So although my personal medical stores had been used, no UN
13 vehicles had been used, it was just to make sure he knew what had gone
14 on.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding. Can you tell us --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us on a map where the location was where
19 you attended these casualties, please.
20 A. These casualties were presented to me in the PAPA headquarters,
21 which is in the building adjacent to the Presidency building on its
22 eastern side.
23 Q. These casualties, Mr. Harding, were these military people or
24 civilian people?
25 A. They were all civilian people.
Page 4381
1 Q. Were you able to see any military target around there which you
2 thought was engaged by the barrages that you had told us about?
3 A. From the round that caused those casualties and from the other
4 rounds that I observed enroute to the hospital, they were so spread out
5 that they were not in one particular location. And so I could not say a
6 specific military target, because they were all over the city. I could
7 see them, and I can hear them, and we drove through the dust from one that
8 got off enroute.
9 Q. When you say "they were all over the city," what do you mean by
10 "they"?
11 A. "They" being artillery rounds.
12 Q. Did you form an opinion about the source of these rounds you
13 described, the source of fire?
14 A. Observation posts were reporting seeing the impacts in the city by
15 the sheer amount of fire in the city -- landing in the city. It could
16 only have come from outside the city, that being the Bosnian Serb army.
17 Q. Now, you said that the bombardment started at 10.00. Did this
18 timing tell you something?
19 A. Yes. Yes, it did. It started exactly at 1000 hours and stopped
20 exactly at 1600 hours. That was a timed, concerted effort to bombard the
21 city with no specific military objective that could be identified either
22 by myself or by the observers in any of the PAPA positions.
23 Q. Mr. Harding, have you seen a similar concentration of fire in
24 Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, I have observed a similar concentration, and I just need to
Page 4382
1 re-adjust the map so you can see.
2 They need to see this area.
3 If you can see on the map, I'm pointing to the position marked
4 Number 5, which was PAPA 5. It was overlooking the PT. From this
5 position, I could observe across the plain to this area here, which is a
6 small village called Otes. From PAPA 5, I could clearly see Otes.
7 Q. Could you perhaps indicate with a "T" the broader area, perhaps a
8 circle around it and "T" inside.
9 A. The area I refer to has got a blue square around it with the
10 letters "OT" inside. That area is called Otes. I was in the observation
11 post at PAPA 5, and on the 2nd of December, 1992, we observed a
12 concentrated barrage of artillery into the square indicated on the map.
13 That started on the 2nd of December and finished on the 7th, 8th of
14 December. The concentration of artillery and mortars, that continued for
15 a day. There was then an assault with infantry and armoured vehicles
16 supported by tanks, and they gradually worked their way through the
17 buildings until the Serbian army had command of the area of Otes. It was
18 an all-arms attack, that meaning heavy weapons were used to support the
19 armour and the armour was used to support the infantry. It was a very,
20 very intensive use of artillery to the extent that the observers in PAPA 5
21 could not see or could not count the amount of ammunition landing in that
22 square because there was so much landing at the same time.
23 Q. So you are saying, from what you observed, that Otes was a proper
24 military attack using artillery and support infantry
25 A. It was a proper military attack, as you said. Artillery first and
Page 4383
1 then we could see the armoured vehicles and then the infantry, and you
2 could hear the small arms as they worked their way through and took their
3 that area of the ground. It was a controlled attack.
4 Q. Now, going back to the incident of the 31st of October, 1992,
5 compared with Otes, how would you describe this attack?
6 A. Well, Otes was a proper military attack, and we would have said
7 those former orders to instigate the attack, there was command and control
8 at various levels to achieve the objective which was in such a
9 concentrated area. On the 31st of October, there was no concentration of
10 fire. It was random from what I could see, and from what my observers
11 could see, although it started at the exact time of 1000 and it finished
12 at 1600, there was no obvious objective to be seen by myself or the
13 observation posts.
14 Q. Now, did the timing, what you just referred to, the direction of
15 fire and the range of calibres involved, tell you anything as to the
16 degree of planning involved and the levels -- the command levels which
17 would have been involved?
18 A. Do you refer to Otes or the 31st of October?
19 Q. To the 31st of October.
20 A. Well, on the 31st of October, all the weapons started to fire
21 exactly the same time, 1000 hours. And there was an obvious ceasefire at
22 1600 hours. The weapons were from various locations around the city.
23 They must have been by the amount of ammunition that was landing. So
24 there was a certain amount of command and control and orders given for
25 them to start firing at the same time. But the targets that they were
Page 4384
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Page 4385
1 given were not obvious to us, as the rounds were so spread out as opposed
2 to Otes when all the rounds fell within the square I marked on the map.
3 Q. Just to conclude this part, and to clarify, from which direction
4 or directions was the fire coming on the 31st of October, 1992?
5 A. I couldn't really answer that question because we were unable to
6 see the weapons firing, because they were beyond visual range. I couldn't
7 say from which direction as we were just subjected to the ammunition or
8 incoming shelling. But it was from numerous locations.
9 Q. Now, I would love to go back to these pictures.
10 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just ask you, Mr. Waespi, you indicated
12 three hours for this witness. Could you give us an estimate on how much
13 time you'd still need?
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, certainly, Your Honours. I think ten minutes,
15 quarter of an hour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. WAESPI:
18 Q. I'm not sure whether you still have the pictures or whether they
19 were taken away. If the potential exhibit, the six pictures, P3662, could
20 be handed to the witness, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed, Mr. Waespi, where we used to receive
22 colour copies, I don't know if the colour is of no importance, we'll try
23 to manage. But...
24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, Your Honours, for this observation.
25 Because we had to do it in a rush over the weekend and not all the UN
Page 4386
1 services work, especially since a holiday was involved, we will certainly
2 provide you with a colour photograph. And yes, I think it's important
3 that you see the original colours.
4 Q. Mr. Harding, if you could take us through picture by picture
5 starting with Number 1, which is the second row, the one in the middle.
6 And you just explain what these pictures display.
7 A. Right. The picture now being shown is picture number 1. Where my
8 pointer is, this is the road which leads up to the stadium. This is the
9 turn you would take to get to PAPA 3. This is the Lion Cemetery, which
10 was adjacent to PAPA 3, just here. The thing of note is that all the
11 fencing is down and has been knocked down, and you can see all the new
12 graveyard, grave marked by the new wooden posts.
13 Q. And the location of PAPA 3 would be where?
14 A. Just out of view around to the right. This goes to a little car
15 park where I'm pointing to now.
16 MR. WAESPI: The witness is now pointing to go the lower right
17 corner.
18 A. Your vehicle would drive up here to the right and stop, just a
19 very small car park.
20 Q. Now, picture number 2, the one immediately to the left.
21 A. Picture number 2 I'm showing now is looking directly at the door,
22 that was the main entrance, to where the UNMO stayed. In this area is
23 where the sandbags would normally have been, and just inside is where the
24 UNMOs were accommodated. Behind --
25 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Harding, just for the record.
Page 4387
1 MR. WAESPI: The witness mentioned the sandbags and he pointed to
2 the part just where the three, four stairs start if I'm --
3 A. That's correct. The sandbags were along the top of the stairs and
4 down the side. It would then form some protection for the UNMOs that
5 lived just inside this door. They would go up the stairs and it was on
6 the right-hand side that was their accommodation.
7 Q. Thank you. You want to add something?
8 A. This is a general shot of where the mortar hit the building, and
9 we had a look, you'll see from other shots, that where my pointer is
10 now --
11 Q. The witness points into the middle of the door.
12 A. -- the centre of the door. The remains are still there, and from
13 the crater and the shrapnel -- the damage you'll see in a moment -- where
14 my pointer is now dead centre to those doors is where the mortar round
15 landed.
16 Q. If we can move on to picture number 3.
17 A. Picture number 3 I'm showing now is a close-up of the door. See
18 where the mortar round would have hit, the approximate centre of the
19 door. You see the shrapnel damage on the wall, and it was in this area
20 and over just slightly out of the picture is where the remains of the
21 woman were. In a colour picture you can see there's blood down here and
22 the blood carried on outside.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes. And for the record, the witness pointed to the
24 floor of that picture, the lower fifth more to the right of the picture at
25 hand.
Page 4388
1 Q. Can you tell us in relation to this entry of the UNMO PAPA Number
2 3, how far away were the APCs?
3 A. The APCs -- it would be better if we looked at another view of the
4 building. If I return to picture number 2 that we've already seen, the
5 APCs were to the left of this shot and behind the wall to that out of
6 sight.
7 Q. Can you tell us the distance in metres?
8 A. It is difficult to estimate it, but in a straight line, if we were
9 to draw it, it would be 80 to 100 metres away around the side and at
10 the back of this building completely out of view. And there was no
11 indication that there was anything there. This building was clearly
12 marked with a UN flag whilst we were there. But apart from that, there
13 was nothing. Access to the vehicles, to the APCs is not via this
14 entrance. They went around the back. And when there were people going to
15 and from them, they were not seen from this side of the building.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.
17 Let's move on to picture number 4, please.
18 A. Picture number 4, again, is a straight-on view of the door where
19 the round landed. And to the bottom right of the door is where the
20 remains of the woman were, and there was some more mortar to the right.
21 But this shows the damage that was caused by that round.
22 Q. And the last two pictures, first number 5.
23 A. Number 5 shows the new graves that had been dug. To the right of
24 the graves, you'll see a line of trees --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
Page 4389
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We were
2 specifically talking about photographs, so could it be more precise. We
3 do not know what time frame we're talking about for each of these
4 photographs.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as my recollection goes, the witness has
6 testified that this was on -- I think the day after the impact. But if
7 this is not correct, and as far as I understood, all the pictures were
8 taken the same day. Is that true?
9 THE WITNESS: I took these photographs, and they were taken on the
10 24th of October, 1992.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. If you could describe picture number 5, please, continue if there
14 is anything else.
15 A. Picture number 5, the new graves that have been dug, to the right,
16 top right corner, you can see a line of trees. That line of trees
17 indicates the road that goes down towards the stadium. On the other side
18 of that road is the Lion Cemetery. These graves are overflow graves from
19 the Lion Cemetery, and you're looking north to take this picture. PAPA 3
20 is to the right, slightly out of view, and on the other side of the road.
21 This shows the overflow.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 And finally, picture number 6.
24 A. Picture number 6, to the right and the bottom corner can be seen
25 graves that have been dug ready to receive the dead. And on the left-hand
Page 4390
1 side, you can see the start of the all-weather football pitch, and you can
2 see the graves that have already been dug into that all-weather football
3 pitch, and there are ones waiting for the dead and also some marked with
4 wooden grave markers.
5 Q. Can you tell us in relation to picture 6 into which direction we
6 are looking?
7 A. Just double-check on the map. We're looking north as the photo is
8 taken, and the door that we saw that was damaged is also facing north.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
10 I would like to ask you a few questions just in clarification of
11 what you have said. You testified earlier this morning about the tunnels,
12 and you said that there were two tunnels. You mentioned that the tanks
13 were in the northern end of one of the tunnels. First of all, can you
14 tell us on the map, indicate please, where these tunnels were.
15 A. [Indicates].
16 Q. Can you mark it with your blue pen again. Perhaps just two lines
17 for both strings of a -- of the tunnel.
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Thank you.
20 And that means obviously that these tunnels are moving parallel?
21 A. Yes, they are.
22 Q. And the northern end would be which one?
23 A. I see the orientation, it's better to describe it as the western
24 end. The tunnel I refer to is the western end of the southern tunnel.
25 Q. So can you indicate by a cross where you saw the tanks.
Page 4391
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Page 4392
1 A. I put a cross just by the entrance so the southern tunnel on the
2 western side just inside.
3 Q. And was this the tunnel which was used by the traffic which was
4 open?
5 A. Yes, that tunnel has got a road either side. The northern tunnel
6 on the eastern side, there is no road leading to it. It needs a bridge
7 and there isn't one.
8 Q. Now, you have also testified this morning that you said prior to
9 you arriving to PAPA 1, there was no firing from PAPA 1, that these
10 artillery positions were not active. While you were there, in Sarajevo,
11 indeed on PAPA 1, was there any firing from those positions?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You also testified this morning and said that there was increased
14 risk of attack, and you explained that around the Lion Cemetery, and you
15 went on to say, and I quote: "You didn't stand around near the cemetery."
16 What do you mean by "increased risk?"
17 A. By increased risk, I mean that because there was a concentration
18 of people, they were more likely to be shelled or attacked. So you did
19 not stand around when there was a group of people at the cemetery. If
20 there was one or two, perhaps digging graves, it wasn't so bad. But if
21 there was a funeral going on, you don't stand too close to the funeral
22 because there was increased risk, because those people can be seen from
23 positions to the north of the Lion Cemetery.
24 Q. Now, you said that, and I quote again: "It was a common thing,
25 these attacks." Can you elaborate more what do you mean by a "common
Page 4393
1 thing." Was it a daily occurrence, was it more often, less often?
2 A. The difficulty I have is because it happened a lot, it became
3 normal, and because it was considered normal, we didn't make a report on
4 it because it was something that happened. It is very difficult for me to
5 say how many funerals were attacked. It was normal for them to be
6 attacked, although it may seem strange in this courtroom, at the time it
7 was normal. And so we never stood around waiting, watching these
8 funerals.
9 Q. You were there between the beginning of August until mid-January.
10 In terms of occurrences of attacks on funerals, was there more attacks
11 before mid-September or afterwards or couldn't you tell?
12 A. With a certainty I can say that the attacks became more common
13 because the trees started to lose their leaves. Eventually all the trees
14 were cut down which then made that area to be in plain view of positions
15 to the north, and so it would be seen that a funeral was taking place and
16 so that it would be attacked. When I first arrived, the trees all had
17 their leaves and you couldn't really see the cemetery from a distance.
18 But as time progressed, the attacks would have increased.
19 Q. You said that it became normal, these attacks, and because it was
20 considered normal, we didn't make a report on it because it was something
21 that happened."
22 Apart from attacks on funerals, do you recall other "normal
23 things" which you wouldn't report?
24 A. By not reporting, we would report that the artillery rounds or
25 whatever ammunition had landed there. So we reported as a military
Page 4394
1 action, but not record it as an attack on a funeral, if you see what the
2 difference is. Another normal thing was for a single round of artillery
3 or mortar to land at any time and virtually anywhere within the city.
4 This was normal, but it meant every time you went outside, you ran the
5 risk of being caught by these single rounds that were landing. And so
6 these single rounds became normal, and although they would have been
7 reported as seen, it was significant risk to go outside.
8 Q. Let me ask you about this single shot you just mentioned. Is
9 there any military sense in firing a single artillery or mortar shot?
10 A. Well, there are certain, if you could call them, benefits or
11 objectives from firing a single shot. By doing so, you would achieve
12 maximum surprise. By achieving maximum surprise, you can create the
13 maximum amount of casualties. You also increase the psychological effects
14 on the civilians of the city by doing this because they would always be
15 wary of going outside. From a military point of view, it's minimum
16 effort, because it's only one round, and it's minimum expenditure of
17 ammunition, so you can conserve stocks. So there are five reasons that
18 you could fire one of those rounds. But it was into a civilian area.
19 Q. Against military targets, and perhaps I misunderstood you, against
20 military targets, is there any military objective in using just one round
21 of an artillery piece?
22 A. The artillery is usually used in support of a military action, to
23 clear the ground ahead of your own forces or to subdue enemy activity.
24 But normally, you would not fire just one round. The only military time
25 you would maybe fire one round would be to -- it's called fire in, to
Page 4395
1 check fire, before anything was to happen. But that would be on to a
2 specific target. These single rounds were just falling all around the
3 city, and you can't say a specific time because it was completely random.
4 And so there was no military objective for these because they were not on
5 the military targets. They were not on the front lines. They were well
6 away from the front lines. They were inside the -- inside the city, in
7 the main streets, into the market or wherever. It was in the city but no
8 specific location. So from a military point of view, we would say no,
9 because it's not conventional warfare.
10 Q. You said that your -- the Russian major, Roumiantsev, that he
11 reported about this attack on the funeral. Can you clarify again what his
12 position was vis-a-vis you?
13 A. He was north of the cemetery --
14 Q. I'm sorry. His function rather than his position.
15 A. His function?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. He was my second in command. He was on a patrol and was checking
18 the UNMOs at the cemetery -- wrong, at the stadium. And so he was north
19 of the position looking south. He was my second in command and would have
20 returned straight to PAPA headquarters.
21 Q. Now, did he make any suggestions that there was outgoing fire from
22 the area of the Lion Cemetery which may have attracted incoming fire?
23 A. No, nothing at all. If there had been, I'm sure he would have
24 heard it. And if he had, I know he would have put it in the report and he
25 would have told me.
Page 4396
1 Q. You have mentioned that the stadium was -- also received fire.
2 Now, on the map we sort of see two circles -- ovals I guess they are
3 called which resemble a stadium. By "stadium," which one are you
4 referring to?
5 A. My stadium, the main olympic stadium which had the seating all the
6 way around the outside, I can see the two. But this map isn't good enough
7 for me to be able to remember which one it was going to be. It's the main
8 olympic stadium. There's a football pitch in the middle of it. It has a
9 running track. I could have made a mistake. It could be this one just
10 here indicated on the map as the darker circle, which is largest as
11 opposed to this one here.
12 Q. Thank you. And the darker circle which is largest, you referred
13 to the circle which is in between number 4 and 5, but more to the left.
14 A. Between 4 and 3.
15 Q. 4 and 3, I'm sorry.
16 A. There's 3. I was trying to see from the photographs to see
17 exactly the distance between -- I'd need clarification or a better map to
18 say if that is the main olympic stadium, and I may have to reconsider and
19 say that yes, that is, because it has got all the seating, and so he would
20 be where my pointer is now, which is on the eastern side of that stadium.
21 And he could then see across to the Lion Cemetery.
22 Q. Now, the last question on this, and with your indulgence,
23 Your Honours, I misjudged my time. I'm sure I'll get better. It's
24 probably another five minutes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that as well. Please proceed,
Page 4397
1 Mr. Waespi. And I would like to urge the parties to keep as strict as
2 possible to the time limits.
3 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.
4 Q. Why was there fire into this stadium? Do you have any -- made any
5 observations?
6 A. Underneath the stadium is where there were some weapons and the
7 soldiers. The troops from PAPA 1 moved into the stadium, and their guns
8 were under the stadium. Also under there were 120 millimetre mortars and
9 the trucks that moved the artillery pieces. These were checked every
10 day. There was an UNMO there, and they never moved. They were just down
11 underneath under the basement.
12 Q. Are you aware of any agreement that they wouldn't be used in the
13 conflict?
14 A. They were constantly monitored. I'm not aware of any agreement
15 like that.
16 Q. Now, two last points: The first one is, can you, again, tell us
17 in relation to the PAPA UNMOs 1 to 4 when they were removed or moved to
18 another location? Don't say where they were moved to, but just in your
19 timely recollection when did that happen, if it happened. Perhaps UNMO
20 PAPA 1 first.
21 A. They were moved in September and October. And PAPA 6 would have
22 been put in late October.
23 Q. And PAPA 2?
24 A. Again, September. It's difficult for me to identify the exact
25 month.
Page 4398
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Page 4399
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. But it was realised that the UNMOs at PAPA 2 were not doing a
3 proper observation job, and so another location was found for them. So
4 that would have been, say, October 1992.
5 Q. How about PAPA 3 and PAPA 4?
6 A. The personnel from PAPA 3 would have been withdrawn probably
7 October. And again, judging from the photos I referred to earlier on,
8 that would have been October 1992.
9 Q. And the new PAPA 4, where was that position?
10 A. PAPA 4 at the stadium, we had a new PAPA 6 that was put in place,
11 and that would have been, again, October, November time.
12 Q. Yes. If you could please refer to the map and mark the new PAPA
13 4, if you recall where that location was.
14 A. Well, we had a position within the stadium, PAPA 4.
15 Q. So it remained within the stadium?
16 A. Yes. That numbering. So the new positions were the PAPA 6 that
17 was looking north, repositioned PAPA 2 looking south, and then the new
18 PAPA 5 also looking south. If you were to draw the left and the right
19 arcs of each observation post, they overlap.
20 Q. Can you go to picture number 6 again, please. Are you able to see
21 the confrontation line between the Bosnian Serb army and the ABiH, or at
22 least some positions from the Bosnian Serbs? And can you please mark it
23 on the photo.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. The witness drew a V indicating that these are what?
Page 4400
1 A. On picture number 6, I've drawn a V which is pointing to a
2 building. That building overlooked the stadium. And when I first
3 started, that's where sniper fire would come down, and you could -- into
4 the stadium. And so that is approximately where the front line was when I
5 first arrived. It was down the road from PAPA 3, passed the stadium, and
6 then at the edge of the urban area which was just on the other side of the
7 building marked with a V in picture number 6.
8 Q. And so everything at the hill behind was -- were positions
9 controlled by the Bosnian Serb army?
10 A. Yes, all the high ground in the distance is Bosnian Serb army.
11 Q. Now, just last -- one last question which may take one or two
12 minutes. Were you aware, Mr. Harding, of a dead female that was found a
13 couple of hundred metres away from the PTT building?
14 A. Yes, I was. I was driving from the airport down the airport road
15 towards the PTT. Because of the debris on the road, all the vehicles
16 drive on the same side of the road. And then as we drove down, the driver
17 pointed out that there was a dead person lying in the road. I was then
18 told that that person was there all day, and was eventually moved by UN
19 personnel with an armoured personnel carrier. I couldn't stop because I
20 was in a soft-skinned vehicle in an area known to have a lot of snipers
21 and small-arms fire.
22 Q. Can I stop you there, Mr. Harding. Do you know it was in danger
23 from which side of the confrontation line?
24 A. To stop there, you're in view of the Serbian forces on the front
25 line there. It was a known area that was covered by Serb forces, Serb
Page 4401
1 snipers.
2 Q. Now, can you tell us on the map where that location was.
3 A. [Marks].
4 MR. WAESPI: The witness just marked the location with a cross and
5 the letters "CAS."
6 Q. Are you aware in which part of the body the witness was shot at?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We all know that time is
9 running. We've all noticed that. But it would be a good idea if the
10 Prosecution would pinpoint the time when all this was happening, because
11 this has not been stated, neither by the Prosecution nor by the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you please assist
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, certainly, Your Honours.
15 Q. Mr. Harding, do you recall the date this incident happened?
16 A. I can't recall the exact date without looking through my diary,
17 which I made at the time. But I was the subsector commander, and so it
18 would have been between the 13th of November, 1992, and the 23rd of
19 January, 1993, to give it a bracket. As for an exact date, I would need
20 to look at the diary.
21 Q. Now, can I --
22 MR. WAESPI: Sorry, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's fine.
24 MR. WAESPI:
25 Q. Can I repeat the question I just asked before my learned friend
Page 4402
1 stood up: Are you aware which part of the body the woman was shot at?
2 A. Yes. Once I was informed that the body had been picked up. I
3 went to the morgue at the Kosevo Hospital and saw the woman and inspected
4 the body to see where she had been shot. She had been hit in the head
5 either by a single shot from a high-velocity rifle or a piece of shrapnel
6 because there was a very large exit hole. It was a single round that had
7 killed her. I also asked to see what was with the body at the time, and
8 there was a plastic bag with some sticks in it, firewood. It was
9 definitely the body picked up from near the PTT as indicated on the map.
10 It had a very distinct dark brown long coat. So to answer the question,
11 in my professional opinion, it was a single shot from a sniper rifle.
12 Q. How old was this woman?
13 A. Between 21 and 25.
14 Q. Now, my last question, clarification again: In your statement you
15 gave to an investigator, you said that this incident happened on the 29th
16 of January, 1993.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we object to the
19 admission of this statement and therefore we cannot accept what was just
20 said.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please explain why you -- do you want this
22 part of the statement be read to the witness or -- I mean, what's your
23 objection based on?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In my view, the Prosecution is
25 putting a leading question. The question follows from a document for
Page 4403
1 which it has not yet been decided whether it will be admitted or not and
2 that is why I am objecting.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell me what the question was? As
4 far as I can read in the transcript now, the question until you
5 interrupted was: "Now, my last question, clarification again, in your
6 statement you gave to an investigator you said that this incident happened
7 on the 29th of January, 1993." I do not know what the question would be
8 after. Or would you like the Prosecution first to establish whether this
9 was part of the statement? I mean, if it's the Defence case that this is
10 not part of the statement, then of course it would be different.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the problem is
12 that the witness has just said very clearly, and this was before this
13 question was put to him, that this event could only have taken place
14 between two dates, one of which is a date that is before the 29th of
15 January. The witness has, therefore, already specified a certain period,
16 but in any case, it is up to you, Your Honours, to make a decision on
17 this.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What would be your question, Mr. Waespi? Because I
19 do not know yet, since the statement you're confronting the witness with
20 gives a different answer to what you earlier asked the witness -- to the
21 earlier answer of the witness.
22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour. I started my issue with
23 saying it's a clarification, because the witness had said this morning
24 that he left I believe on the 23rd of January, and this is a week before
25 this incident happened. So I wanted to ask him to clarify this issue.
Page 4404
1 And the second point is, we don't intend to tender this witness
2 statement. Of course not. It's just giving him a chance to clarify
3 whether this heading of the incident, that female, 29th January, 1993,
4 whether that's correct as he recalls today. That's my question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: One moment please.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed. The objection is denied. The
8 answer in view of the earlier statement clearly is in need of some
9 clarification. We'll first hear what it is.
10 MR. WAESPI:
11 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us whether this incident which you
12 talked about, indeed as you had stated in your witness statement, happened
13 on the 29th of January, 1993, or on another date?
14 A. To find out the exact date, I'd need to look in my diary. But it
15 was definitely within my period there because I definitely remember
16 searching the woman to see where the injuries were on her dead body. The
17 reason I was saying the 23rd of January is that's when I thought I had
18 finished my diary, but it was in my time as the subsector commander. So
19 if there is a confusion in the dates, I would again have to look at the
20 diary. But it was definitely within my time.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions to
22 this witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi.
24 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. First, let
Page 4405
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Page 4406
1 me thank you for giving us the floor. The last time we spent too much
2 time, and you criticized us for good reason. Today, we have only about 10
3 minutes left, and I will not be here tomorrow, although I had told you
4 earlier that I would be cross-examining this witness, we will have to make
5 the best of it and change our plans. So I now wish to ask you to give us
6 five minutes because I will not be here tomorrow. I can start this now,
7 but I think the presence of the witness is not necessary.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
10 Q. [Interpretation] I will ask my questions in French, one of the
11 official languages of this Tribunal. Because we were unable to prepare
12 for this cross-examination, I will ask you to give very short replies. My
13 first question is: How many military corps were there in Sarajevo and
14 which army did they belong to? For the interpreters, I'm speaking of the
15 location.
16 A. The location Sarajevo, the 1st Corps of the Bosnian army, that was
17 what I referred to.
18 Q. Yes, sir. We all understand that we are speaking of Sarajevo, but
19 precisely where in Sarajevo?
20 A. The 1st Corps had elements deployed around, around the city, at
21 various locations, which were then divided into individual units and
22 commands. It all came under the 1st Corps headquarters, which I reported
23 to on numerous occasions each week.
24 Q. Very well, sir. Can you tell us now where exactly these
25 headquarters were, the headquarters of the 1st Corps, the headquarters of
Page 4407
1 the 1st battalion -- I apologise, of the 1st Brigade, the 2nd, and the 5th
2 Motorised Brigade? Please, be very precise. In what streets? And if
3 possible, give us the house number as well.
4 A. The 1st Corps headquarters were a seven-minute walk north from
5 PAPA headquarters. And they were in the basement of a multistorey
6 building. Regarding other battalion headquarters, company headquarters,
7 they were --
8 Q. I must interrupt you, sir. Please let us be short. I asked you
9 whether you knew the name of the street and the house number. I will
10 repeat my question: I asked you whether you knew the street and the house
11 number. If you don't, tell us so.
12 A. I was never informed of those because I knew where to walk to.
13 Q. But if you don't know, you can just tell us you don't know. We
14 would like to take up as little time as possible.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just two points a general one and a specific
17 one. If my learned counsel could let the witness finish his answers, and
18 we would like to offer that the witness be recalled at a later point so
19 that the Defence also Mr. Piletta-Zanin can cross-examine the witness and
20 has full time to do so.
21 But I would really like that Mr. Harding is allowed to finish his
22 answers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that if, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you ask a
24 question, perhaps it's good first to listen to what the witness says, and
25 if it's not precise enough. On the other hand, I do not mind to be quite
Page 4408
1 honest that if the witness is giving descriptions that are more vague than
2 Defence counsel would like to know. If, for example -- let's just take an
3 example. If Mr. Piletta-Zanin just wants to know whether the witness is
4 aware of the name of the street and the number of any headquarters, he is
5 allowed to ask. I mean, it is a different question whether this Chamber
6 might be interested to know even if he doesn't know the name of the street
7 and the number of the building whether this Chamber might be interested to
8 know where about the headquarters might have been. But I leave it to up
9 to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to ask exactly what he wants to ask.
10 But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it might also be a bit a result of your
11 question. You first tell us could you tell us where the headquarters were
12 and your next question is, could you tell us very precise, and then you
13 you'd like to know the name of the street and the number as well. If you
14 just start asking are you aware of the names of the streets and the
15 numbers of the buildings where the headquarters or the brigades, and then
16 perhaps the 1st Brigade, then it goes far quicker, and you can come quite
17 quicker to where you'd like to be as far as I understand you.
18 So the more precise the question is the more precise you get the
19 answer in a quick way. Please proceed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Could you please tell us the street number and the floor. We are
22 still speaking of the 1st Corps, and I'm asking the precise address, the
23 street, the house number, and the floor.
24 A. No, I cannot tell you the street or the house number. It's on the
25 ground floor.
Page 4409
1 Q. Thank you, sir. And the 2nd Brigade, do you know the exact
2 address, the street, the house number, and the floor?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 What about the 2nd Brigade, the same question, the street, the
6 house number, the floor?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, the 5th Brigade, can you tell us the street, the
9 house number, and the floor?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can I ask you whether you know at least something. Do you know
12 this information for any brigade, any battalion? Could you tell us the
13 precise address of any of these headquarters? If you can't, then tell
14 us so.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you for this precise reply.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am now forced
18 to put a question of a personal nature. This is my duty as Defence
19 counsel.
20 Q. Sir, this question is not meant to be an attack on you. I
21 apologise for having to ask you it, but sir, I can see that today, you are
22 disabled. I think you were not when you were in Sarajevo. Is that
23 correct?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
25 MR. WAESPI: I think we had clarified this point even before the
Page 4410
1 witness came in.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you, that you clarified it. But I
3 don't know. Did you inform the Defence on the details? Because the -- I
4 can imagine that the Defence might not be willing to accept your -- good
5 reasons to believe that your explanation might not be the right one, then
6 of course -- I do not know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any reason to
7 doubt the explanation given by the Prosecution, that the handicap of
8 Mr. Harding is not related in any way, as far as I understand, to the
9 conflict in the former Yugoslavia? Is there any reason to have any doubt
10 or is there any specific -- could you please tell us the relevance of your
11 question?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I only wished to be quite
13 certain that there is absolutely no connection between the events we are
14 referring to today and Mr. Harding's handicap. Of course, if there were
15 any connection between these two events, it would have legal
16 consequences. I know that this is a very personal question, but the reply
17 to this question would clarify certain matters for all of us.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever objection there may have been, I think
20 it's -- the Defence is entitled to ask. And let me just look at your
21 question precisely.
22 Your first question -- your question was: "I think you were not
23 when you were in Sarajevo. Is that correct?" So I think the --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my first
25 question. I said I think that during your time in Sarajevo, you did not
Page 4411
1 have this disability.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But to avoid someone objecting
4 to my putting such a personal question, I can leave it to the Trial
5 Chamber to establish this and clarify the situation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since it may be experienced as a very sensible issue,
7 I'll be glad to assist you. Mr. Harding, the Defence just wants to
8 clarify whether there could be any relation between your handicap and your
9 testimony in this Court. Your handicap, does it date from before your
10 time in Sarajevo or from after your time in Sarajevo?
11 THE WITNESS: After.
12 JUDGE ORIE: After the time in Sarajevo. Was it related in
13 whatever way, I would say, to the Balkans?
14 THE WITNESS: No. Nothing at all to do. I was involved in a road
15 traffic accident in the United Kingdom in 1997.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think this clarifies the issue.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
18 Thank you for giving this answer. I can understand it's a
19 sensitive issue. You can understand why the Defence would like to make
20 sure that there's no relation whatsoever.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall proceed.
23 Q. As far as I understand, you were involved in a road accident in
24 1997, and I am sorry about this. But this accident had no connection
25 with, for example, a mission you may have been involved in in Great
Page 4412
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Page 4413
1 Britain that was connected to the previous events because as far as I know
2 you were still serving in the military in great Britain after you returned
3 from Sarajevo?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: I think you clarified this point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is my understanding, Mr. Harding, but please
7 correct me if I am wrong, that this road accident had nothing to do in
8 whatever way with either a mission related to the -- what I call the
9 Balkans, just in very general terms. If I'm not correct in understanding,
10 please tell me. If it's totally unrelated, Mr. Piletta-Zanin will put his
11 next question to you.
12 THE WITNESS: At the time of my road traffic accident, I was an
13 instructor at the Air Academy for the Royal Air Force. . It was
14 instructional duties, and these instructional duties had nothing to do
15 with the Balkans or anything outside of the United Kingdom.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 Apart from that, it is 4.00 now, I promised you five minutes which
18 I did not give you yet. So I'd like to perhaps stop here if that's a
19 convenient moment for the Defence.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, Your
21 Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think we agreed that the issues you'd
23 like to raise do not necessarily have to be raised in the presence of the
24 witness because they have not nothing to do with that. So therefore I
25 would like to ask the usher to lead the witness out of the courtroom.
Page 4414
1 Mr. Harding, we will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00, not at
2 9.30 as today but 9.00.
3 Mr. Usher, could you...
4 [Witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for
7 giving me the floor. There are two things I wish to say. As I told you
8 before, I will be absent for reasons beyond my control. These are family
9 matters. I have prepared as far as I was able to for a part of the
10 cross-examination of this witness who, as we can see, cannot tell us where
11 the headquarters of the various brigades were located. And I'm afraid
12 that the witness will have to be recalled. The Defence has already said
13 that they wished this witness to be recalled at some point. Tomorrow, my
14 colleague will continue cross-examining the witness; however, there are
15 some questions I would personally like to put to the witness in my own
16 way, and I will be able to do this only later. This week, we shall be
17 discussing the application of Rule 92 bis (e), and I would like to be
18 present when this is done because I wish to expound certain aspects of
19 this issue here. A trial in absentia would not be the correct thing to
20 do in this case, so we wish to consider this issue not before Wednesday.
21 I have tried to be brief and to put my points to you as briefly as
22 possible. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you first one clarification, if you
24 say you'd like to have this witness recalled, do you mean Wednesday or
25 Thursday, or do you mean on a longer term? I mean, how much time would
Page 4415
1 you need to prepare for it?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you correctly see that
3 the Defence also pays attention to the state of person. I see that this
4 is a handicapped person and of course I understand it's not very
5 convenient for him to travel back and forth. So if I have to prepare
6 overnight, then I will do it overnight. It won't be the first and the
7 last time. So however, as of Wednesday or perhaps Thursday, yes, that
8 would be fine.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that your suggestion is that
10 tomorrow, whatever questions can be put by Ms. Pilipovic will be put to
11 the witness, that there are some remaining questions you'd like to put to
12 the witness yourself. You would prefer not to discuss the 92 bis issue
13 tomorrow. That means that if there's any time left tomorrow, that we
14 should continue with your next witness, and that would be?
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. Kucanin, Mr. President, and he's likely to be
16 some time. He has been waiting around since mid-last week.
17 Mr. President, whilst I'm on my feet, might I respond to some of those
18 issues. The Prosecution makes no concession to the Defence in its claim
19 that it has had insufficient time to prepare this witness. It's had his
20 statement since December. There was a 65 ter summary. We've complied
21 with the seven-day notice rule. However, if the witness has to come back
22 in any event because of the situation with the reports, then we are
23 prepared to accommodate Mr. Piletta-Zanin's desire to ask some further
24 questions.
25 Mr. President, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has also said that he cannot be
Page 4416
1 here tomorrow. I have no recollection of the Trial Chamber being informed
2 of that last Thursday when these arrangements were made to swap around two
3 witnesses, Harding and Kucanin. I therefore assume this is a late
4 development. I appreciate that it's a family matter. So Mr. President,
5 that's the situation. If he's coming back anyway on Wednesday because of
6 the reports or at a later date if you deem it appropriate, then we're
7 prepared to accommodate the late cross-examination. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just in order to avoid
9 whatever debate, it is my understanding, since you told us that it was a
10 family matter, that usually you do not arrive on Monday morning in
11 The Hague and to travel back again Monday evening if it's not something
12 that really asks for your presence. So unless you'd like to add something
13 to it, I would say that this Chamber accepts there will be good reason for
14 it, for your absence tomorrow. And since we can continue, we don't...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber will be able to continue tomorrow,
17 we start with Mr. Harding, then if necessary, we'll continue with the
18 examination-in-chief of Mr. Harding. Then on -- examination-in-chief of
19 Mr. Kucanin. Then on Wednesday, I think the remaining questions to be put
20 in cross-examination to Mr. Harding will be put to him first, although
21 it's a bit of an unquiet order. Perhaps under these circumstances, we
22 should accept it. If that would be acceptable to all the parties, and no
23 92 bis tomorrow, Tuesday, then I'd -- the Chamber will order that this is
24 how we proceed during the next few days.
25 Mr. Ierace.
Page 4417
1 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It still leaves perhaps the
2 issue of the reports which have not been translated into B/C/S.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At what notice could it be done?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps we could make some inquiries
5 this afternoon and update you first thing tomorrow as to when that could
6 be done by.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unfortunately it's Mr. Piletta-Zanin who is not
8 there who could perhaps otherwise go through the reports together with
9 General Galic. May I urge, especially the Prosecution, to find a
10 solution. I know how difficult the translations usually are, but to find
11 a way or to -- if there would be an interpreter who could read it. I mean
12 it's not a hundred-page document. Let's just try to see whether we can
13 solve this, let's say, before tomorrow mid-day if possible, so that
14 there's a fair chance to conclude the cross-examination as well on
15 Wednesday.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I should raise this now whilst
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now. I wonder whether it would be acceptable to the
18 Defence if, assuming we could arrange it, an interpreter could translate
19 the relevant documents to the accused during one of the breaks tomorrow,
20 perhaps an extended break for that purpose.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps even in the presence of
22 Ms. Pilipovic so that she immediately is aware of the contents as well.
23 Let's just start and see whether this works out. And then we'll
24 see whether we can proceed on Wednesday.
25 May I assume that you, Mr. Ierace, and Ms. Pilipovic, will be in
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1 touch with each other as far as the arrangements for the translation are
2 concerned? Yes.
3 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same
4 courtroom.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 4.09 p.m., to be reconvened on
7 Tuesday, the 26th day of February, 2000,
8 at 9.00 a.m.
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