Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4420

1 Tuesday, 26 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Since we discussed all practical problems yesterday when we were

12 to adjourn, I think we immediately can continue, Ms. Pilipovic, with the

13 cross-examination of Mr. Harding. No, Mr. Ierace is on his feet. Please,

14 Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Good morning, Mr. President. There is an issue I

16 would seek to raise briefly before we recommence the cross-examination of

17 Mr. Harding. It relates to the evidence of Berko Zecevic. He is to be

18 called following Mr. Kucanin, and [redacted]. Mr. President, in the 65

19 ter summary for Berko Zecevic, the Prosecution has described him as a

20 highly-qualified expert in heavy weapons technology. And indeed the

21 Prosecution relies on part of his evidence as that of an expert witness.

22 That, then, automatically raises the relevant rule, which is 94 bis.

23 Mr. President, that rule was amended in December of 2001. It requires

24 under 94 bis (a) that the statement be disclosed within a time limit

25 prescribed by the Trial Chamber. Firstly, in relation to that, there are

Page 4421

1 two statements by this witness, the first was disclosed in the year 2000,

2 and that is the statement upon which the Prosecution relies. There is

3 also a report upon which the Prosecution relies, and that has also been

4 disclosed in mid-2000.

5 There is another statement which has been disclosed in the last

6 few days made by this witness. The Prosecution does not rely on any of

7 the material in that statement. It has simply been disclosed as part of

8 our obligations under reciprocal disclosure. Moving on to 94 bis (b), the

9 Trial Chamber is required to -- withdraw that. Within a particular period

10 of time of the filing of the statement, that is, 30 days, or such other

11 time prescribed by the Trial Chamber, the Defence in this case is required

12 to file a notice indicating whether it accepts the expert witness

13 statement or it wishes to cross-examine the expert witness. And if the

14 statement of the expert witness, this is under 94 bis (c), if the Defence

15 in this case accepts the expert witness's statement, then it may be

16 admitted into evidence by the Trial Chamber without the witness being

17 called.

18 Mr. President, that is the decision which is required by the

19 Rule. I indicate for the Prosecution that we do not submit that the

20 Defence need in these circumstances to file a notice indicating whether it

21 accepts the expert witness statement or whether it wishes to cross-examine

22 the expert witness. I say that because the 65 ter summary for this

23 witness did not carry a heading that he was an expert witness; rather it's

24 apparent from the text. So in short, the Prosecution is content for this

25 witness to be called in the ordinary way and to be cross-examined in the

Page 4422

1 ordinary way. If my learned colleague prefers that this issue be raised

2 in the presence of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, then I am content to raise it again

3 tomorrow. But I thought it best to raise it at the first opportunity that

4 I became aware of it as a potential issue so as to give maximum notice to

5 the Trial Chamber and the Defence. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

7 Ms. Pilipovic. You see, Mr. Harding, we still have some

8 procedural issues to deal with you. I beg for your patience.

9 Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

11 morning to everyone. The Defence has understood what our learned friend

12 has just said. We understand the essence of the issue. The Defence,

13 however, would like to acquaint itself in greater detail with

14 Mr. Zekovic's statement. I wish to mention that we are referring to

15 statements and not to an expert opinion. In any case, before the start of

16 the cross-examination tomorrow, the Defence will set out its position with

17 reference to Mr. Zekovic's testimony after consulting Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. So then for the time being, the

19 order will not change as we see it now. I've one additional question to

20 you, although I have not the new text of 94 bis, which has not yet in a --

21 you have it -- because the consolidated form is not there. It is there,

22 but...

23 MR. IERACE: I also have a spare copy if you...

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just have a look at. Yes, I see that especially

25 the necessity which did exist under Rule 94 bis to file the statement of

Page 4423

1 an expert witness is not contained any more in 94 bis (a) so that I have

2 no question any more. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

3 So then, Ms. Pilipovic, I think you could continue the

4 cross-examination, or to -- for you, it's start your part of the

5 cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Harding. Please proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 WITNESS: CARL DANIEL EDWIN HARDING [Resumed]

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Harding, good morning. Can you tell us

10 whether on the 31st of May, 2001, you talked to the investigators of the

11 prosecution and made a statement regarding the events that took place

12 during your stay in Sarajevo?

13 A. If that's the date of the statement, then yes. I do not have a

14 copy of the statement in front of me, but I was questioned by an

15 investigator, Jonathan Tait-Harris.

16 Q. Yes, thank you. Mr. Harding, you are an infantry officer. Did

17 you tell us what military schools you went to and when you graduated from

18 those schools?

19 A. Yes, I reported to the Royal Air Force college at Cromwell on the

20 30th of October, 1982. I graduated from that college on the 14th of

21 March, 1983, and I graduated as a second lieutenant.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 A. From there, I commenced flying training as a pilot --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, I think we usually have both the

25 microphones on. Yes.

Page 4424

1 A. From the Royal Air Force College, I then started pilot training

2 within the Royal Air Force. And after a year of that pilot training, I

3 then failed the course. Then I had to resign my contract, and then in

4 1985, I rent to Royal Air Force to be trained as an RAF officer.

5 When I finished that course at the end of that year, I had to do

6 another course on armoured vehicles. When I finished that, I then

7 reported to my first operational unit at RAF Akcroteri in Cyprus. I did

8 two years at Cyprus. I then did another operational tour --

9 Q. Thank you, sir. You have explained to us what schools you went

10 to. Can you tell us how it happened that you, as an infantry officer,

11 were transferred to the RAF?

12 A. Within the Royal Air Force is the RAF regiment. It is part of the

13 air force. We use army tactics and equipment, and we are part of the air

14 force, commanded by the air force, and so I've always been in the air

15 force.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us while you were studying to be an

17 infantry officer, what kind of weapons you studied in detail and what kind

18 of weapons you gained only superficial information about?

19 A. During the initial mission [phoen] Course at RAF Catrick is all

20 small arms operated by the airforce just from small pistol which the

21 pilots would have up to a 7.62 millimetre sustained fire machine-gun,

22 which is on a tripod. Before I went to Sarajevo, 12 months previous, I

23 had undergone another course which was the use of artillery, target

24 information, adjustments of targets for mortars and artillery, and also

25 tank target indication. That was then reinforced with a course on forward

Page 4425

1 air controlling to bring aircraft weapon systems on to targets. So I had

2 used --

3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And during your training, which you said

4 lasted a year, what weapons did you personally aim out of and which did

5 you only watch being used?

6 A. We had the siting target indication in use because I was an

7 officer of captain rank of 105 millimetre artillery, which is called the

8 light gun. And the 155 millimetre artillery, and also the 81 millimetre

9 mortar. Added to that was an anti-tank weapons. So we were siting,

10 controlling, ordering the fire of and adjusting the fire of all of those

11 weapon systems as commissioned officers, platoon commanders, and company

12 commanders.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Harding, you have told us that a year before your

14 arrival in Sarajevo, you underwent training. You told us that you were

15 trained in the use of weapons. Can you tell us whether you were also

16 trained specifically for your mission in Sarajevo and what sort of

17 training this was.

18 A. The specific training before I arrived was I reported to Zagreb.

19 We had the Canadian engineers. They ran through all of the mines that

20 were in use. And at that time, the mines they used were all live because

21 there was no training equipment. We went through vehicles, radios,

22 reports, all the administration required by UNPROFOR at that time. And

23 that's the training that I had in Zagreb.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Witness, you told us you arrived in Sarajevo in late July and that

Page 4426

1 you were assigned as an UNMO to PAPA 1 on the mill -- hill of Hum. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. That's correct, yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us what task you were given when you were assigned to

5 PAPA 1?

6 A. My task there was to observe and report all military activity that

7 could be seen from the position. I was also there to monitor the activity

8 of the 105 millimetre Howitzers that were dug in at that location.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Yesterday, in response to a question by my learned friend at 9.33,

11 you said that your job as an UNMO was to observe all military activities

12 on both sides. Is that correct?

13 A. The task of the UNMOs was to monitor both sides. From my

14 position, I could only monitor the one side, but the LIMA call signs

15 monitored the other side, and the information was collated by the PTT

16 staff in the PTT building on telecoms.

17 Q. You are telling us, therefore, that in the performance of your

18 duties, and we are now referring to PAPA 1, it was your duty to observe

19 only the positions of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that it was

20 your duty to report what was happening on that line. Is that correct?

21 A. It was my duty to report all military activity that I could see

22 from that position. So I could see across the valley on to the other

23 side, and if I saw activity on the other side, then also I would also

24 report that. It is not necessarily just the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

25 it's also the Serb army.

Page 4427

1 Q. When you arrived at PAPA 1, where were you accommodated and were

2 your lodgings in the same place as your observation post?

3 A. No, we lived in a house on the ground floor about 50 to 75 metres

4 from the first weapon.

5 Q. And in that building, what were you able to see from there? Were

6 you able to see the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina positions from there?

7 A. From the house, we could see across the valley, but the

8 observation position was around by the guns which gave a much better view

9 across the city, although sitting on a target, we had to be careful. But

10 it was a much better observation post. All four guns were dug in and were

11 behind an earth bank so they couldn't be seen from the other side. So I

12 would observe from the house and also from the gun positions.

13 Q. Mr. Harding, when you arrived at PAPA 1, were you told what your

14 role as an UNMO was, and by this I mean what did you actually observe?

15 What military formation were you given the task of observing?

16 A. I was observing the artillery battery and its 50 troops, but I was

17 reporting all military activity. One of my first reports was a small-arms

18 fire fight in Tito barracks, which was in the city, and also I reported an

19 air attack off to the west at some distance. That's to give an example of

20 the types of activity that I would report. It was not who was doing what;

21 it was more what was happening.

22 Q. Mr. Harding, I will come back to your methods of work and

23 reporting later. Now, I would like to return to the observation on the

24 hill of Hum. Were you aware of the positions of the army of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina on that hill, and did you know what military formation was on

Page 4428

1 the hill of Hum? When you were given your task, were you also provided

2 with this information regardless of what you found when you got there?

3 A. The only information I was given was a location of that

4 artillery. I wasn't briefed on any other position anywhere on the hill.

5 It was solely that one position.

6 Q. Can you tell us whether your positions --- and by that, I'm

7 referring to PAPA 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 --- whether they were located in

8 certain areas of the town where there were brigades? Was this the

9 practice in setting up observation posts in the territories held by the

10 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. I was involved in the relocation of all of the PAPA sites to make

12 them observation posts. The siting was done with regard to the ground

13 that we could see. Once we knew where we wanted to put the observation

14 post, we would then need to find out in what area it was and what brigade,

15 and therefore go through the 1st Corps, and then get permission to put it

16 up there, and then do the administration after that. Whilst we sited it,

17 it was not with regard to any brigade boundaries, but it was with regard

18 to the front line at the time and possible withdrawal of our troops should

19 it be needed. But no brigade lines were ever considered because we didn't

20 draw tactical maps of either side because we were not there to assess

21 their tactics. It was merely to observe the city.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether on your arrival at your post as an UNMO

23 you were acquainted with the topography of the city of Sarajevo?

24 A. When I arrived, we had one or two days in the UN headquarters,

25 which was in the PTT building, and we were just briefed from maps so you

Page 4429

1 could see the valley. And then once we were given the maps, it was up to

2 us to acquaint ourselves with the layout of the city.

3 Q. Can you tell us what hills and mountains surround the city of

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. To do that, accurately, I would do it from a map. Because we

6 didn't number the hills or anything. It was just by the names on the

7 map.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

9 the Defence would like to show the witness a map that he has already had

10 the opportunity to see. And I should like to ask him to mark for us the

11 mountains around Sarajevo and also the elevations around the town.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the map that was used yesterday during

13 examination-in-chief.

14 Mr. Harding, all marking done at the request of the Defence will

15 be done in black marker pen. So I saw the blue one already in your hand.

16 Mr. Usher, could you please give the map to the witness and

17 perhaps assist him in keeping the map flat on the ELMO surface.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, would you please indicate for us the Hum hill on this

20 map. I believe that you have already marked it. I think you've marked it

21 with number 1.

22 A. The actual peak of the hill is directly north from the triangle

23 and the number 1. We were down from the peak of it. We were not right on

24 top. Would you like me to mark the peak, or are you happy that it's

25 directly north?

Page 4430

1 Q. That's quite sufficient, thank you.

2 Could you then indicate for us other hills on this map. Perhaps

3 the Grdonja hill.

4 A. To do it by name is very difficult for me because it's nearly ten

5 years ago. We did all of our work from the map at the time. When we

6 referred to a hill, we used a 6-figure grid reference. If near to that

7 location there was a name on the map, we would also state that because

8 that assists the person who is plotting the 6-figure grid reference. We

9 always referred to 6-figure grid references because some of us could not

10 pronounce correctly the locations on the map, and it was common military

11 practice to use grid references.

12 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us in what part of the town the Grdonja

13 hill is situated?

14 A. I must say again that we referred to grid references, not to

15 mountain ranges by name. I can draw the ridges that I could observe from

16 PAPA 1. But it was all done by grid reference.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

18 I should like to ask the witness to mark for us the elevations around

19 Sarajevo. Since this seems to be a problem on this map, could we perhaps

20 use another map and then have the witness mark this map? I could perhaps

21 assist the witness. We have a copy of a Prosecution exhibit indicating

22 the PAPA positions in Sarajevo. Maybe that would assist the witness so

23 that he can indicate for us all of the elevations surrounding the town of

24 Sarajevo.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my information, Ms. Pilipovic, are you

Page 4431

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Page 4432

1 testing whether the witness is aware of the location of the ridges, or is

2 it for any other reasons that you'd like to find out where these ridges

3 are? I'm not quite certain about which part of Rule 98 we are at this

4 very moment.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the

6 examination-in-chief, the witness spoke about the positions and locations

7 from where the BH army soldiers opened fire. And also, the positions that

8 were sources of the activity and fire of the Serb army. In the statements

9 given to the OTP, the witness did not mention the fact that all major

10 elevations were held by the army of Republika Srpska, and that there was a

11 small number of elevations held by the BH army. With my questions, first

12 of all, I wish to test the credibility of the witness and furthermore I

13 think that for the purposes of assessing the value of this testimony it is

14 important to establish what the elevations were held by the BH army and

15 what were the elevations held by the VRS so that I can follow up with

16 appropriate questions. I think that we should first establish that. If

17 the witness does not know the Zuc hill or the Grdonja hill or Mount Igman,

18 Trebevic or Mojmilo, let him say so. But if he can mark these

19 locations on a map, I think that that would be of considerable assistance

20 to all of us.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do better understand what your questions will be

22 about. Would that mean that you'll ask him to identify certain hills or

23 would you like to have him identify all the hills around which seem to be

24 part of the question? What map are you going to use?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it will be very

Page 4433

1 useful for the Defence for the witness to identify all of the hills in

2 view of what he was doing in Sarajevo. And also, to tell us with respect

3 of his testimony in chief from what positions the artillery and rocket

4 launchers were active. I'm referring to the VRS positions. For me to be

5 able to follow up with these questions, I need the witness to mark for us

6 these specific locations.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic. And what map do you

8 intend to use for that purpose?

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've made a copy of

10 the PAPA position. This is a Prosecution exhibit, and I think that it

11 might assist the witness to tell us specifically what elevations and hills

12 around Sarajevo were relevant in this respect.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a document, I assume, which is not known

14 yet to the Chamber.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again, this is a

16 Prosecution exhibit, and I've made a sufficient number of copies. It is

17 the document 0062165. I've made copies for my colleagues as well.

18 THE REGISTRAR: This will be given the number D53.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map?

21 A. It's the first time I've seen it. But to answer your questions,

22 would you like me to draw the front lines on this map, rather than name

23 the hills? I can show you Zuc, I can show Igman. These were large areas

24 and there were military operations in that general area. But I can draw

25 the front line all the way around the city, and from that you can decide

Page 4434

1 who has the high ground and who doesn't. But you would need to specify

2 what front line you would want because when I arrived in August 1992,

3 there was one front line. But the time I left, there were some

4 significant changes as Bosnian Serb army had gained ground and in other

5 areas, the forces within the city had also gained ground. It changed. So

6 if you specify the time, either January 1993 or August 1992. Which one

7 would you like?

8 Q. Mr. Harding, we would like you to mark for us, if possible, the

9 front line as it was at the time of your arrival at PAPA 1. So August

10 1992.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you also assist the witness in

12 such a way that we can see on our screen exactly what he is marking. So

13 if you'd please try to keep the -- his hands on our screens.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Sir, could you tell us what you're marking at this particular

17 moment so that we can understand.

18 A. With a black pen with a constant line I'm marking the approximate

19 location of the front line. In some areas, it was quite a ground to be

20 classed as no-man's-land as it gave cover to neither side. So it's not

21 going to be exact because it was effectively natural buffer zones caused

22 by the lie of the land. But this is the approximate location that if we

23 were to go near it, we would have to liaise with one or both sides because

24 we would be going into an area of a possible conflict.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And that's July 1992 upon your arrival?

Page 4435

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 THE WITNESS: As I go around, do you want me to highlight the

4 major hills of consideration?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sir, what you have just marked for us on PA and PB, is the front

7 line held by whom, which army?

8 A. To the north and to the west is the Bosnian Serb army. Inside is

9 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I only dealt with forces on the inside.

10 In my entire time I had nothing to do with the Serbian side as that was

11 within the LIMA call signs.

12 Q. Just one more question concerning this particular area. Do you

13 have any knowledge as to the presence of the 2nd Motorised Brigade in this

14 area, the area that you marked with PA and PB, the BH army? Was this area

15 covered by the 2nd Motorised Brigade?

16 A. The area of PAPA 5A and PAPA 5B, we were there as observers. We

17 did liaise with the military personnel or the local commanders. But as I

18 said, it was not our task to draw tactical maps, and therefore we only

19 referred to our call signs and not any military formation, be it

20 mechanised brigade or just infantry brigade.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the strength of this brigade?

22 What was the number of troops?

23 A. Again, that is tactical information, and it was not our role to

24 find out numbers. We would report equipment, but we would not report or

25 record that sort of tactical information. The reason we didn't do that

Page 4436

1 was that if I needed to go on to the other side, be it either way, LIMA

2 come to me or I go outside, if I was closely questioned, I would not know

3 that information. And that was the agreements that we had in order for us

4 to move around the city.

5 Q. You've just told us that you had contact with military personnel

6 and local commanders. Could you be perhaps a bit more precise? What

7 military personnel and what military commanders were you in contact with

8 in this area, PAPA PA and PB

9 A. PAPA 5 Alpha and Bravo, it would be the commander of the forces

10 there. We would be told who was in command. We would then go to find

11 him. We would then ask him where the dangerous spots where such as

12 snipers and basically where we would -- we should not go to endanger

13 ourselves. By military personnel, it was purely the commander at the

14 time. He may or may not have had military training.

15 Q. Can you tell us where it was that you spoke to local commanders

16 and can you name one of them? Also, can you name anyone from the military

17 personnel and tell us where they were quartered in this area?

18 A. Right. We did liaise with the military commander whose

19 headquarters was by PAPA 5 Alpha. It was near the end of this salient. I

20 cannot give you his name as we just referred to them as local commanders,

21 but he was right next to the accommodation area, which is at A. The

22 observation post is at B. But that is where he was barracked and did his

23 operations from.

24 Q. Are you telling us that the headquarters of the military personnel

25 you had contact with and those of the local commanders were situated near

Page 4437

1 the observation post PAPA A?

2 A. PAPA 5A was the accommodation. It was not an observation post.

3 But his building was just down the street.

4 Q. Can you describe for us the type of buildings that the local

5 commanders were accommodated in, those that you had contact with, as well

6 as the military personnel?

7 A. The buildings in this area were made of concrete and breeze

8 block. 80 per cent of them had been finished. There was hardly any

9 population left here because it was subject to fire from the north, from

10 the west, and also from the east. It was considered to be the most

11 dangerous position for us. But they were in the finished and also

12 unfinished buildings in this area. 5A is in an unfinished building which

13 is a concrete frame, whereas 5B is in a concrete frame only. 5A was in

14 a completely finished house.

15 Q. Is it your testimony that you were accommodated in residential

16 blocks, and that that was the case of the local commanders and military

17 personnel of the BH army?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. During what period of time did you stay and

20 how often at PAPA A position?

21 A. I stayed at PAPA 5 only once, because shortly after that it was

22 withdrawn because it was considered too dangerous, and also it did not

23 interlink with the other observation posts that we wanted in the city. It

24 couldn't see what we needed it to see, and it was too dangerous. So I

25 stayed there at the beginning of August 1992. The accommodation was

Page 4438

1 during the day and the observation post was manned at night.

2 Q. Can you tell us, please, when PAPA A and B were withdrawn? At

3 what period of time, in which month?

4 A. Without reference to the diary, I would suspect that they were

5 moved in September, late September. Maybe. I cannot be certain of that

6 because all of the positions were being moved around, and there were

7 administration considerations. So an observation post, although chosen,

8 could not be operated immediately because we had to sort out who owned the

9 house and also liaise with people around and also make sure that it could

10 achieve what we wanted it to achieve.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Thank you.

12 You told us a moment ago that you could mark for us the hills

13 dominating the town of Sarajevo on this map, the hills that you know

14 about. Could you indicate that for us now, please.

15 A. I'm marking the front line that was known to me in August 1992.

16 To the north of it is the area of Zuc. There was some significant

17 activity in this area. And later on in my time in Sarajevo, and I just

18 marked the general area of Zuc on top of where it is written on the map.

19 The black continuous line has joined the dotted blue line because

20 the dotted blue line was the front line that we discussed yesterday as

21 part of the Prosecution. So I won't overwrite it so it still remains

22 clear if that's okay. Is that okay?

23 Q. Witness, now that you have indicated this part of the map and put

24 the dotted blue line there, in response to a question of my learned

25 friend, you mentioned the 9th Motorised Brigade of the BH army, and you

Page 4439

1 told us that it also encompassed the area of seven woods that can be seen

2 on the map. Can you confirm that?

3 A. I didn't refer to any formed unit as in mechanised brigades.

4 There would be concentrations of troops because we did not record tactical

5 information such as that.

6 Q. Can you mark for us the concentration of troops in this area? You

7 told my learned colleague where the front line of the BH army was, so in

8 respect -- with respect to that area, could you tell us where the BH army

9 positions in the area of Grdonja hill were and the area of seven woods,

10 that is where the troops were concentrated?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

12 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Your Honours. There are four questions

13 in one, if they could be broken down into separate pieces just to assist

14 the Trial Chamber. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please split it up.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, you have marked a line as a response to a question put to

18 you by my learned colleague. Now, as the extension of that line is, can

19 you mark the area of the Grdonja hill with respect to that line and tell

20 us whether you have any knowledge about the presence of the BH army troops

21 in the area of Grdonja hill.

22 A. Later on in my time in Sarajevo, we positioned PAPA 6 which was

23 marked yesterday and the pen is pointing to it south of the city on a

24 steep slope.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

Page 4440

1 A. From that observation post, we can observe to the north, and then

2 could see this hill and the front lines on it. So from my position at

3 PAPA 1, at the time that we're talking about, August 1992, I would not

4 have any knowledge of the military operations up here. That is why we put

5 in PAPA 6, because although we could hear things were going on, we could

6 see casualties arriving at the hospital but we had no idea what was going

7 on. That's why PAPA 6 was put in as discussed yesterday.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] There has been a misunderstanding

9 and confusion. The Witness was referring to the observation post number

10 6.

11 Q. The way I understand you said that it was from observation post

12 number 6 that you were able to observe the Grdonja hill and six woods.

13 You tried to explain to us where the observation post 6 was and what could

14 be seen from that post, what troops could be seen from that post.

15 A. That's correct. But there is a problem with the time line. We're

16 talking August 1992 when I was at PAPA 1 or PAPA 5 when we didn't know

17 what was going on here or in October, November 1992 when PAPA 6 was put in

18 here, and then we started to report. August 1992, I cannot state what

19 troop concentrations there were especially by unit and also by words which

20 are not particularly clear on this map. This front line that I'm drawing

21 is, to the best of my knowledge, was accurate for August 1992.

22 Q. Can you mark that part of the front line on the map now, I mean

23 August 1992.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Witness, could you please tell us whether you have marked the

Page 4441

1 front line where the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina troops were

2 concentrated, that is, their positions?

3 A. I've marked the front line which would be basically no-man's-land.

4 For example, I'm pointing to an area just to the west of the PTT building

5 and slightly east of the area Otes which was discussed yesterday. This is

6 flat river plain, so it belonged to neither side. It could be covered by

7 fire from one side or the other. The troops would be dug in in buildings,

8 and where this protection would not be out on the plain, so this line does

9 not designate the forward edge of troops from either side. It was merely

10 the no-man's-land. It includes the area of Otes, goes through Ilidza.

11 I've drawn a question mark here as I'm not certain of where the front line

12 went just to the north of the airfield. It's the no-man's-land I've

13 marked, not formation of troops, trenches, gun positions and other such

14 like.

15 Q. Do you know whether in the part that you marked Otes, whether the

16 HVO and the 102nd Motorised Brigade of the army of BH was?

17 A. The area of Otes to us was a group of buildings that we observed

18 on the observation post PAPA 5. I personally never went into that area as

19 it was observed from PAPA 5. So I could not tell you what equipment was

20 in there and other such things because we didn't go into Otes.

21 Q. Can you mark on the map in relation to Igman where this was?

22 Whether Igman is left of Ilidza and Otes.

23 A. On the map at the moment you can see the main airport with its

24 primary runway running up there. If I draw the front line south and west

25 of the airport, the area south and to the west of the airport, this area

Page 4442

1 is known as Mount Igman. I've written it on the map in black pen. The

2 steeply rising ground and was all covered in woods. The town of Butmir

3 belonged to or was under the control of the Bosnian-Herzegovina army. The

4 Serb army had control of the open ground to the west of Otes and on the

5 flat lands. Again, I cannot guarantee this front line. This is purely

6 from the knowledge knowing that Butmir was not under Serb control.

7 Ilidza was always a source of conflict, and Otes, in August 1992, did not

8 belong to the Serbian army.

9 Q. When you say that Ilidza was always a source of conflict, can you

10 tell us whose forces were there and what concentration of forces was

11 present on Igman?

12 A. The first part of your question, Ilidza was a built-up area and

13 had forces from both sides. I say by a lot of activity in that from PAPA

14 5 we were constantly reporting incoming fire landing on Ilidza. The

15 actual numbers of the troops there from either side, I could not say

16 because we did not go down into Ilidza. LIMA call signs may have more

17 information on that area.

18 The second part of the question is Mount Igman. I personally only

19 went there once, and it was for a meeting with the brigade commanders on

20 Mount Igman with a view to putting a PAPA observation post on Mount

21 Igman. Although we had discussions, in the end we did not achieve any

22 agreements, and I only went there once.

23 Q. Can you tell us with what commander did you negotiate on Mount

24 Igman with respect to opening a PAPA point there?

25 A. Our first point of contact was with Brigade Commander. It was of

Page 4443

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Page 4444

1 a cause of concern for us, and I also think the Bosnian Army, his name

2 something like Juka. We were with him for only 10 minutes, and then we

3 were taken to a building that had been used for the Winter Olympics.

4 There we met some of the other brigade commanders, but I couldn't give you

5 their names as I did not record it.

6 Q. On that occasion, were you able to see the weapons that were there

7 on Igman, the weapons of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Did you see

8 guns, Howitzers?

9 A. The only weapons I saw were the small arms carried by the troops.

10 For example, Juka and the eight men that were with him were extremely

11 well-equipped; however, they did seem to have marginal military training.

12 To get to him, I saw one T-34 tank which had been taken out of action.

13 When we were taken to the buildings, we were not given any guided tour or

14 any information on the types of weapons that were up there. We did try to

15 find out because there had been reports of heavy weapons firing from Mount

16 Igman into areas occupied by the Serb army, but we were unsuccessful at

17 finding out exactly where they were. We were there to try and agree on an

18 observation post. If we happened to see the weapons, we would have

19 recorded it. But we didn't because of it is very dense forest, and we

20 didn't really go anywhere in the vehicle we had. We were in an UN

21 armoured vehicle so its passage was restricted anyway by its size.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Mr. Harding, while conducting your mission as an UNMO, did you

24 draw up reports on your daily activities in the field, you and the others

25 working with you, and were these reports made up daily or weekly?

Page 4445

1 A. Yes, we did record what happened. The first instance, there were

2 three forms we could use. The first one would be an incident report,

3 which was abbreviated to INTREP, and that would be where military

4 activity had been seen, but could not be attributed to either side. We

5 then had a form called a sit -- ShootRep which was to report outgoing

6 fire near to one of our positions or from a position that could be

7 identified.

8 The final form was called a BombRep which was in we were shelled

9 or if we could identify a specific area that was being shelled. These

10 forms were filled out at the time of observation. They were reported to

11 PAPA headquarters. PAPA headquarters would then collate that information

12 and forward it to the UN headquarters housed within the PTT building.

13 That collation was done once a week. Then the senior military office

14 would collate the information and other activities for the entire month,

15 would write out a report and would send it to the main UN headquarters for

16 the area which eventually became in Kiseljak, although he collated the

17 LIMA and PAPA side as we had no contact with each other.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 In the course of your work as an UNMO, did you receive protests by

20 either side, either the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the army of

21 Republika Srpska, or the members of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps on

22 activity in certain parts of town or in areas falling within PAPA 1 or 3

23 or 5, so did you get any protests?

24 A. Yes, protests were received. Their route was through the liaison

25 officers in the PTT building. I personally did not receive complaints

Page 4446

1 because that was not the route they needed to go. If our positions were

2 shelled, we would then put a complaint on to the side that we estimated

3 had fired the shells. So yes, complaints in the PTT, not to me.

4 Q. So you are telling us that if positions were shelled, positions of

5 the army of Republika Srpska, if Ilidza or Lukavica were shelled from

6 Igman, the complaints would be received by LIMA observers, not by you?

7 A. If we observed the shelling which we did in those areas, we would

8 then report it using the forms I've specified. If there were to be a

9 complaint, it may well have gone through LIMA call signs or it was through

10 the Serbian army liaison team that was directly in the PTT building. I

11 personally know that when there was a complaint it didn't come through me;

12 it went straight to my higher command. I can't answer for the LIMA side.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 I think you said that Mr. Richard Mole was your superior officer

15 at some point and then later on Mr. Cutler. Are they the persons who

16 received reports from PAPA and from LIMA?

17 A. Yes, Lieutenant Colonel Richard Mole and Lieutenant Colonel Cutler

18 with my direct senior officers and they collated information from both

19 sides. So he would be my point of contact to find out about a complaint.

20 The route above him and within the PTT was not known to me. But it would

21 be conveyed to me through the colonel.

22 Q. When you were marking these positions and the front line on the

23 map, you told us that was in August 1992. Can you tell us whether these

24 lines shifted and whether in the period while you were on duty, that is,

25 from August to the 23rd of January, 1993, did these lines shift and was

Page 4447

1 there fighting in certain parts of town? Do you know that in December

2 1992, there was fighting on the hill of Zuc?

3 A. To answer the first part of your question, yes, the front lines

4 did change significantly and that is why I asked the time line for the

5 front line that I drew on the map. There was a lot of fighting in Zuc,

6 and the Bosnian army pushed out of Sarajevo and gained ground.

7 Conversely, there was a large battle around Otes where the Serbian army

8 gained ground and the front line moved. Other areas of the front line

9 were very static because the ground was very difficult, which is basically

10 on the south side of town where it is very, very steep and closely wooded

11 and the road that went to Pale was a significant boundary for both sides.

12 Q. You have just told us that the hill of Hum, the hill of Zuc, and

13 Mount Igman were under the control of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 And in the case of Zuc, there was fighting, and it was under the army of

15 BH control from December 1992. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, the front line moved out to the northwest of the city, and

17 fighting -- although I'm unsure who initiated the fighting. But by the

18 ground that was gained, I would presume it's from the army that I was

19 observing on my side of the line.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Mr. Harding, can you tell us the following: You talked about

22 fighting for Otes, fighting for Zuc. Can you tell us how long, for how

23 many days the fighting for Zuc went on? This was in December, but can you

24 tell us for how many days they fought?

25 A. I personally did not record it in my diary, but from my best

Page 4448

1 recollection, it was for at least three to four days as it was covered on

2 the television and the reporting was from -- mainly from the LIMA side

3 because to the north it was over the ridge line and could not be observed

4 from PAPA 5 or PAPA 2 as we were all looking inside. We also did not have

5 any liaison teams moving out as the front line moved, although later on in

6 my time I did go on to some of the ground that was gained from the push

7 out to the northwest, but I did not go far enough to locate the new front

8 line.

9 Q. Can you tell us whether in this fighting, and I'm referring to the

10 fighting on Zuc and Otes in December, the fighting you've just been

11 referring to, do you know whether the two armies taking part were the army

12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of Republika Srpska?

13 A. It was the army of -- the Serbian army, and it was the forces

14 within Sarajevo that initiated the fighting out. I hesitate to call them

15 an army because I did watch troop movements going northeast, some had

16 uniforms, some did not, but they all wore the same coloured armband on

17 their left arm.

18 Q. Can you tell us what the armband worn on the left arm of members

19 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what it designated?

20 A. We presumed that it would designate that they were the army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some of them had the uniform pattern from the former

22 JNA, and we presumed it was to avoid confusion if they were to advance

23 north on to the front line and meet Serb army forces that I presumed would

24 wear that sort of uniform. I did not have any close contact with the

25 Serbian army personnel so I couldn't say for sure, but they all wore it.

Page 4449

1 It was not a rank designation, and as far as we could see, it was not a

2 unit designation.

3 Q. Are you aware whether in the fighting for Otes and Zuc there were

4 any casualties and what the number of casualties was?

5 A. Yes, there were casualties on both sides. The fighting at Zuc was

6 covered by a television team, nationality I do not know, but we did see on

7 the television that they were showing casualties and they were very vivid

8 scenes. The battle for Otes, there were casualties. Some of these

9 casualties were seen at the citizen and Kosevo Hospital as once they had

10 been sorted out by medical personnel, they wanted to get back to Otes. I

11 also spoke to the commander that was in Otes at the time, and he explained

12 to me the number of weapons, type of weapons, and what the situation was

13 like. It was witnessed by personnel from Allied Press and they would be

14 able to tell you exactly how many casualties there were. That is a

15 civilian press team.

16 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us the following: During the fighting

17 and the military operations in the fighting for Otes, to what extent was

18 the front line involved and to what extent was it possible for fire to

19 extend to other parts of the town not directly involved in the fighting?

20 A. When viewed from PAPA 5, the area of Otes could clearly be seen

21 designated by buildings. All the attacks were on to that area of

22 buildings as it was countryside all the way around it. If I could look to

23 the map, if you could look to the map, you'll see from yesterday there was

24 a square drawn in blue ink with "OT" written on it. You can see to the

25 north it is open ground and moving around to the east there's open ground

Page 4450

1 although there are a few buildings. To the southwest is open ground. The

2 only area that is -- that has got a lot of buildings is separated by this

3 railway line. And so Otes could clearly be seen as a single area, be it

4 suburb or village, as it was surrounded on three sides by open ground and

5 then the railway. So it was clear to see even without reference to a map

6 what village or suburb was in conflict.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would this be a convenient moment to

8 have a break?

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, since you're on your feet --

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- tell us something.

16 MR. IERACE: I simply, at this stage, wanted to give notice that

17 when Mr. Piletta-Zanin returns, I propose to raise an issue in relation to

18 Rule 90(H)(ii). I note that there has been some discussion of the meaning

19 of Rule 90(H)(ii) on the case of Brdjanin Talic on the 21st of February.

20 I noticed during the break it was raised, that is, the interpretation of

21 that Rule, by the Prosecution in the Milosevic case, and that the Trial

22 Chamber in that case proposes to give an amplification of the requirements

23 which are placed on the Defence when cross-examining a witness in the near

24 future. I had intended to raise this issue before I became aware of what

25 has occurred in either of those two other cases. So I simply put the

Page 4451

1 Defence on notice and indicate to you, Mr. President, that I do propose to

2 raise the issue in the next day or so. In particular, the obligations

3 which are placed on the Defence to put

4 in one form or another to each witness the elements of the witness's

5 evidence which are contradicted by the Defence case. Perhaps that is

6 enough said at this stage, Mr. President. But I would be grateful if upon

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin's return some time could be found for me to develop my

8 submissions. There is a reason to it, which is that, in essence, if that

9 is not done and if in the Defence case there emerges material which does,

10 in fact, contradict the evidence in the Prosecution case, and that

11 material was known to the Defence at the time that the witnesses gave

12 evidence, then it is not only contrary to the rules, directly contrary in

13 my submission, but has significant implications for the management of the

14 trial. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Part of the message is that we have

16 to do our homework, isn't it? We'll do that.

17 Ms. Pilipovic, is there a reason to respond at this very moment?

18 Yes, please do so.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, no, for the moment, Your

20 Honour. I will respond during the appropriate discussion, that is, the

21 discussion about the Rule 90 (b).

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I just draw your attention to the

23 following: I'd rather do it now than after the cross-examination has been

24 recommenced and before the next break. The Prosecution took approximately

25 four and one quarter of an hour yesterday to examine the witness in chief,

Page 4452

1 which was more than the three hours indicated before. So although it's

2 not necessary to use all your time, but I do understand this is a very

3 important witness for you as well. I'll allow you to use the same time.

4 On the other hand, I would like you to keep in mind that Mr.

5 Piletta-Zanin will need some time tomorrow as well, and therefore I don't

6 know what your -- how you divided your questioning and how you divided the

7 time, but I'd like you to keep in mind that the time used together by you

8 and Mr. Piletta-Zanin should stay within the already-extended limits used

9 by the Prosecution.

10 Please proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, we addressed the issue of fighting for Otes, and you

13 spoke about it during the examination-in-chief. In December 1992, when

14 specifically in December 1992 this fighting took place?

15 A. The offensive started on the 2nd of December, 1992.

16 Q. Do you know how long it lasted, how many days?

17 A. We concluded that the battle was over to a greater extent on the

18 8th of December, 1992, although the main offensive was on the 2nd through

19 to the 4th of December, 1992.

20 Q. As regards to the area of Otes where this fighting took place,

21 according to your knowledge, and in your capacity of an UNMO, do you know

22 whether the fighting affected the areas which were not involved in the

23 offensive? That is to say, were there any consequences of this fighting

24 for the area beyond Otes?

25 A. From my observations at the time, the concentration of fire was

Page 4453

1 restricted to Otes itself, and such was that concentration that we could

2 see what the objectives were because Otes is clearly defined by the open

3 ground. The area around it, I can only presume that it would have been

4 affected by advancing troops from either side, plus logistics required to

5 maintain those troops during combat.

6 Q. During your tour of duty in Sarajevo, in the month of October, in

7 the area of Stupska Petlja, Nedzarici and Kasindolska Street, do you have

8 any knowledge as to any fighting taking place? Was that fighting observed

9 by the observers on PAPA 5?

10 A. Without reference to the records that they made, but from my own

11 experience, I saw fighting in -- or rather impacts in the Nedzarici area,

12 the Stup area, Stupsko Brdo and around to Dobrinja. It was very common to

13 see impacts from artillery or heavy weapons, rather than the actual troop

14 movements because the observation post was too far away to see individuals

15 because they would be covered from view. But there was often conflict all

16 the way along that line.

17 Q. Can you, perhaps, tell us what were the reasons for the fact that

18 in the area of Pasino Polje and Dobrinja there were no observation points?

19 A. There were no PAPA call signs down at that end that could see

20 that. There was only PAPA 5 that could see the buildings as they went

21 around to the north of the airfield, and then beyond that, I don't know

22 what was happening behind there. That was into the area covered by LIMA.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Witness, you told us about your arrival at the Hum hill. And you

25 mentioned four artillery pieces of 105 calibre and the

Page 4454

1 number of 50 troops. In your opinion, what kind of formation was that?

2 What kind of military formation or unit are we talking about in this case?

3 A. They referred to themselves as the 105 Battery. I presume that

4 this number was taken from the calibre, rather than the order of battle of

5 the army or the forces that they were part of. And so they were just a

6 battery of four weapons.

7 Q. According to your knowledge, could that have been a Howitzer

8 battery?

9 A. Yes, those weapons can be referred to as Howitzer, pack Howitzer,

10 or light gun depending on your nationality.

11 Q. Can you tell us what is the range of this weapon?

12 A. The range would depend on the charge placed in the cartridges.

13 The British weapons, I think they have a selection of six bags of

14 propellant, and they would adjust the amount of propellant according to

15 the range. If the troops had the skill to do that, then the range of

16 those weapons which looked to be in fairly good order, although there was

17 minor damage from small arms, I would say that they probably had a range

18 of about 8 -- 10 to 12 kilometres.

19 Q. In your view, since you were present at that observation point in

20 the area where this weapon was located, from that position, in view of the

21 range of the weapon, was it possible to target any part of the town of

22 Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes, they would have been able to engage areas of the town. The

24 eastern area was in view. The central area was in view. But they had

25 restricted view to the west. So if they wanted to do that, if they had

Page 4455

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Page 4456

1 the ammunition, then yes, they could have.

2 Q. How long did you stay at this particular observation point -- post

3 in August, ten days, the entire month, or more?

4 A. There was a rotation of UNMOs through the position. I personally

5 stayed there for five days, but there was always a military observer

6 there. When I arrived, there was two, myself and a Russian. He then

7 moved. I was on my own for a few days before I was joined by a Norwegian,

8 and so the pose went on. We moved around the positions, and it was from

9 PAPA 1, I went around to PAPA 5.

10 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge or any knowledge gained from

11 your colleagues that this battery asked for munition supplies during this

12 particular period of time? Do you know of any such requests?

13 A. Well, they didn't ask me or any of the UNMOs, but I know that if

14 they could have received ammunition, then they would have used it. I

15 think there was a general request. Ammunition would have had to have been

16 captured on the front line, so it would be reasonable to presume they had

17 asked for it, but it wasn't through UNMOs or any part of UNPROFOR.

18 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to any other potential routes or ways

19 that were used for this purpose, for ammunition supplies? Were you

20 personally informed about trafficking in weapons in this part of the town?

21 A. No, I -- later on, we gained knowledge that ammunition had been

22 captured during a military operation and then directed to people that

23 could use it. But as regards trafficking of ammunition or weapons, then

24 no, they had a few small arms and that was all they had when I left.

25 Q. Mr. Harding, you described for us the soldiers, that is, people

Page 4457

1 who were members of a battery. You mentioned that their number was

2 approximately 50, and you told us that they had a certain amount of

3 weapons, 105 millimetre weapons. You also told us that some wore uniforms

4 and some didn't. In your opinion, would they constitute a group of

5 soldiers or a group of civilians in that position?

6 A. I was unaware of any training they had had before I arrived or

7 whilst I arrived. Looking at it in a military context, it could be

8 described as a militia in that they had military weapons and equipment,

9 but they had no formal training. So they were militia in that, if you're

10 looking for a description.

11 Q. Is it your testimony that this was a paramilitary formation, if I

12 understood correctly the interpretation?

13 A. No, a paramilitary organisation would be working to their own

14 guidelines and their own objectives. A militia are personnel taken from

15 the local population, given just enough training to use the weapons they

16 are provided with, and then all other training could be classed as

17 on-the-job training and experience that they would get. So they are not a

18 paramilitary because this battery was obviously working in liaison with a

19 headquarters somewhere else.

20 Q. When you say they were working in liaison with a headquarters

21 somewhere, are you referring to the main headquarters of the BH army that

22 we spoke about and where you had your headquarters as your main base?

23 A. By headquarters, I would mean the next level up in their command

24 structure. I did not write down the structure of the command that we are

25 talking about because I was not there to gain tactical information. They

Page 4458

1 must have been working with other units or a headquarters. It might just

2 be a battery headquarters. Because every day, they were delivered hot

3 food by a vehicle and were also delivered to mortar. So somewhere was

4 supplying this battery, and it was an ordered supply at the same time

5 every day.

6 Q. Where was the headquarters of this battery located?

7 A. It did not come under my remit to find out where their

8 headquarters was. You know, I was only there to observe military activity

9 as previously described.

10 Q. Yes, but can you perhaps tell us what military formation was

11 observed by PAPA 2, which was also in the vicinity?

12 A. At PAPA 2, there were self-propelled artillery known as the 2S1,

13 and there was a counterbattery radar mounted on an armoured vehicle which

14 I do not know the designation of it. Throughout my time, to the best of

15 my knowledge, these vehicles never moved, and there was no maintenance

16 carried out on them, and they were further down the hill from PAPA 1.

17 Q. Do you know how many people covered this particular area? What

18 military formation was deployed there?

19 A. There were the troops as described at PAPA 1. Down at PAPA 2,

20 there was no more than 15 people there with the vehicles. And they are

21 the only two formations that we had any dealings with and that we saw. As

22 we went up the road to PAPA 1, although the road continued to the summit

23 of Hum, we did not go up there.

24 Q. Witness, I have a couple of more questions regarding PAPA posts,

25 specifically PAPA 6. Did you have any problems when setting up PAPA 6

Page 4459

1 positions? I mean, you personally and your superior officer.

2 A. Yes, we did. The initial problem was trying to find a location

3 where we could put the observation post. During our initial

4 reconnaissance, we were fired at by 12.7 millimetre machine-gun, and we

5 had to withdraw down the hill. And we were too close to the actual front

6 line. We then moved to the west and found the location which eventually

7 became PAPA 6. And then all of the grid references for PAPA observation

8 posts, I was informed that they were given to the LIMA side to give to the

9 Serbian army so that they know exactly where we were. Within 24 hours,

10 every OP had been engaged and fired at by either mortars or artillery, and

11 a round of mortar landed directly on top of the building that we were

12 using as the observation post. Fortunately, it exploded -- it was a quick

13 fuse. As soon as it struck the building, it exploded. It didn't

14 penetrate, and we needed sandbags to stay there.

15 Q. In the area where you set up the observation post number 6, were

16 there any paramilitaries and local commanders of the Bosnian army that

17 prevented you or made obstacles with respect to the setting up of this

18 observation post?

19 A. Before we went to the area, we spoke to our liaison in the corps

20 headquarters to let them know what they were doing. When we got to the

21 area, we were given a guide so as not to go too far up the hill and too

22 close to the front line. Apart from that, there was no obstruction in

23 setting up the observation post; however, at one time, there was a

24 formation of militia, and they were going to do an attack up the hill

25 behind us. That meant we were too close to a very specific operation. We

Page 4460

1 withdrew the OP. The forces advanced up the hill. They took control of

2 part of the road to Pale. They stayed there for a short while before

3 tanks from the Serbian army advanced down the road, and they withdrew back

4 down the hill and there was no change in the front line. Once that had

5 finished, we then moved back. So yes, we were -- had a problem in being

6 too close.

7 Q. Is it your testimony that those forces were forces of the BH army,

8 the troops moving towards the road?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. In this area, the area below your observation post, you told us

11 yesterday that that was the position from which one has an unobstructed

12 view of one portion of the town of Sarajevo. Would that be the area of

13 Colina Kapa, Velika, and Mala?

14 A. Well, as I say, we didn't go by names unless they were prominent.

15 I do remember the first name. But we observed the area known as Stari

16 Grad, all of the eastern parts of the city. In our left of arc was PAPA

17 2, so we could see him, and right of ark was the eastern end of the city.

18 Just move the map for one moment. You can see from the map the

19 blue circle with number 6 is the approximate location of the observation

20 post. We can see all of Stari Grad. We can see up the hills to the crest

21 line which was up here, and to a certain extent you could see the

22 beginning of the valley that then goes off to the eastern end of the

23 city. There's an old fort somewhere down here, and there's another fort

24 higher on the hill. We could see both of those. If This area encompasses

25 the areas that you described, then the answer would be yes.

Page 4461

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Mr. Harding, in the area of Colina Kapa, Velika, and Mala and the

3 part where your observation post was, was there a concentration of BH army

4 troops?

5 A. As you drive up to get to PAPA 6, it was very common to see

6 personnel with weapons and an assortment of military uniform. So there

7 were troops enroute and in the buildings north and northeast of PAPA 6.

8 But as to their numbers and formation designations, I couldn't tell you.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 You said they were in buildings. Can you tell us whether the

11 headquarters of these units were there perhaps and whether the quarters of

12 those troops were there? Do you know what buildings these are?

13 A. Actually on front line, there was a trench system. It was during

14 our initial reconnaissance we had gone that far, hence we were engaged by

15 the heavy machine-gun. These trenches were supported by buildings made

16 from logs that they had cut down. And the duty shift of those on duty

17 would man the trenches and stay in the log buildings. Those off duty

18 would be in the buildings behind. The only reason I can say that is

19 because I have seen troops walking towards the front line, and then later

20 on you would see different troops walking back. So there was a roster in

21 operation, and yes, they lived in the buildings directly behind their

22 front line.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Mr. Harding, you have told us that your PAPA locations were in the

25 part of the city under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can

Page 4462

1 you tell us with reference to this map where the elevations were that were

2 controlled by the army of the Bosnian Serbs -- or rather, the army of

3 Republika Srpska?

4 A. You can see at PAPA 6, this is on a steep slope facing north. If

5 you go south, you're going uphill into the wooded area. This is high

6 ground. You can see by the cable car from low ground to higher ground,

7 and you've reached the road. So the area -- the high ground along this

8 road was held by the Serbian army. And lower down the slopes was

9 controlled by the BH army, and where there was open ground such as just

10 here where my marker is, that would be common area which would be no-man's

11 land. But the summary is the Pale road belongs to the Serbs. Lower down

12 belongs to the BH army.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, if the witness could point out or even mark or

15 somebody puts on the record where he is pointing to as he goes along.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to ask that. If

18 the witness could clarify what elevation is the one you referred to as

19 occupied by the army of Republika Srpska.

20 A. I said this is going uphill. The area that I've just ringed using

21 a black marker pen is the road that I said is the Pale Road. I definitely

22 know that this was under the control of the Serbian army. The letter H is

23 high ground, that's high ground. That is high ground. The rest of it --

24 I've drawn a front line down here, but the actual specific front line I

25 cannot be more accurate because it is in closely wooded area, and it was

Page 4463

1 also extremely steep as there was a cliff near PAPA 6, so give an

2 example. But the Serbian army was known to hold the high ground.

3 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry, Your Honours, to interrupt again.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps the witness could draw a line, sort of a

6 dotted line where you think the front line or where you are not sure where

7 the front line is, to the fluid, or where it's located.

8 THE WITNESS: I've drawn a dotted line in black ink, and it's

9 between the area that's previously described as the Pale Road and the

10 front line that I drew earlier on today. It was in this area that would

11 become no-man's land. The trenches I observed were in thickly wooded

12 area, but there is open ground as well. We did not go up the slope to try

13 and find out exactly where the front line was; we just did it from our

14 experience and from other observations.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Harding, can you mark on this map the locations from which,

17 according to you, shots were fired by soldiers of the army of Republika

18 Srpska at the town and at what parts of town? You talked about this

19 yesterday. Could you mark it on the map, please, if you can. If not,

20 tell us that you don't know.

21 A. Whilst I was at PAPA 6, I observed a Serbian army battery. They

22 were off this map to the east and on a hill. And I observed them as they

23 shelled the PTT building. We timed the flight of their ammunition and the

24 number of rounds that were fired, and they coincided exactly with what the

25 PTT building was reporting to me. They fired about three volleys of at

Page 4464

1 least two rounds. The reason I can specifically remember this is because

2 we recorded the time of flight, which is standard operating procedure for

3 the British forces, so that you know the round you see land on the ground

4 is the round fired by the artillery that you are dealing with. And so I

5 cannot mark this. They were on a ridge line off to the northeast from my

6 position.

7 Q. Can you tell us when this was?

8 A. I would have to look through my diary if you need an exact date.

9 But it would have been when PAPA 6 was in position and operational, so

10 you're looking at November. Shall I look through my diary to give you an

11 exact date?

12 Q. Did you draw up a report about this incident?

13 A. We recorded -- it became difficult to report on that because it

14 should have been a ShootRep from the LIMA side if there had been a LIMA

15 position there which I didn't know. So we would have recorded it as an

16 incident report because the PTT had been shelled. I didn't need to

17 forward this report to the PTT because I gave them the grid reference of

18 the battery engaging them, and they could count the incoming rounds for

19 themselves.

20 Q. And based on the information you gave them, can you locate the

21 direction in relation to this map of a hill where you say the battery was,

22 in relation to the PTT building?

23 A. From the PTT building, it was directly east.

24 Q. Can you indicate this on the map so that we can orient ourselves,

25 show us the part of town this refers to.

Page 4465

1 A. All right. The PTT building was on the main road leading into

2 Sarajevo. It was receiving fire from there an approximate bearing of 160

3 degrees slightly less than east on the hill, which is off this map, if

4 that answers your question.

5 Q. Are you saying that this is behind the hill that you marked, that

6 this was the high ground where the army of Republika Srpska was?

7 A. The area I'm pointing to now is in the valley. High ground to the

8 north, high ground for the south. There was a clear channel all the way

9 down to the city and still in direct line of sight all the way down the

10 road. This is in the valley. The ground then climbs because the valley

11 turns from heading at 160 degrees grid it turns and heads away down to

12 let's say 120 degrees grid and up. If you just move the map a little bit

13 more, from the old city, you're going uphill. And this is high ground,

14 and the battery I was observing from PAPA 6 across on to the high ground

15 was in approximately this location. You see the ground is climbing

16 there. That is the top of a hill, and it was in this area. And it could

17 be seen on the crest of the hill.

18 The reason I could identify it during the shelling of the PTT is

19 the muzzle flashes were clearly visible on the ridge line. And so I could

20 time 21 seconds from leaving the barrel to the impact. And that time was

21 repeated.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, if the witness again --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think -- Ms. Pilipovic, would you please guide

25 the witness to mark or describe exactly which spot he indicated.

Page 4466

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness to

2 go back to the end of this map and to read the part that can be seen so

3 that we can orient ourselves as to the direction from which you say the

4 shell came. If the witness could draw a dotted line from the location of

5 the PTT building to the place where, in your estimation, the shots were

6 fired from.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if the witness just indicates the

8 place where he saw the fire came from, would that be enough? I mean a

9 straight line could be mentioned by everyone and the map will be

10 overloaded with all kind of markings.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I agree.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist us and put that

13 part of the map on the screen by manipulating it on the ELMO so we can see

14 how Mr. Harding will mark the source of the fire he saw.

15 A. I marked on the map two arrows pointing towards the west. The

16 area concerned is slightly off this map. The arrows are drawn on the

17 hill -- on the slope which is still climbing as it goes to the east. The

18 arrows are also in woods where the artillery in question was not on the

19 wood line; it was on the crest line. You could see the muzzle shots.

20 It then fired down towards the PTT and the PTT was being shelled from the

21 east.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you tell us what artillery piece was used?

24 A. The specific type and calibre, you'd have to refer to somebody

25 from the LIMA side as, although I have no evidence, I think they were

Page 4467

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Page 4468

1 tasked to go and have a look to find out what had happened from the

2 Bosnian Serb side of the incident. It would presume by the range, the

3 accuracy, and the muzzle flash, it was probably a 122 millimetre

4 artillery.

5 Q. Can you tell us the range of the 122 millimetre weapon?

6 A. I can't tell you the range of that as I was only on the city. I

7 had no reason to talk to anybody and I never saw any of that inside the

8 city. I know it is a primary piece of artillery, and I in my previous

9 experience have only dealt with the British 105 millimetre light gun, and

10 they were static 155 weapons. So I can't tell you the range of that.

11 Q. Can you tell us what damage was caused to the PTT building after

12 the building was fired on from those positions. Can you tell us that?

13 A. No, I can't tell you that. You'd have to refer to one of the PTT

14 staff. However, when I reported to the PTT building, it was fully

15 functional and there was no significant damage to the structure.

16 Q. Do you know whether on the occasion of this incident a report was

17 drawn up in the PTT?

18 A. Once again, the PTT was my higher command. And what reports they

19 generated I suspect would be a complaint to the Serbian liaison officer or

20 down through LIMA side into Lukavica barracks. But that was a higher

21 command for me, so I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Witness, yesterday during the examination-in-chief you mentioned

24 an incident that happened on the 23rd of October at the cemetery. Can you

25 tell us whether on that occasion in the area of the Lav Cemetery, PAPA 3

Page 4469

1 was in the immediate vicinity, and I am referring to the 23rd of October?

2 A. On the 23rd of October, my second in command was visiting the

3 position in the former olympic stadium. We did not have a proper

4 position adjacent to the Lion Cemetery at that time. As part of his

5 patrol, he would stop there and check that the armoured vehicles had not

6 moved and were still there. But no, we had nobody there.

7 Q. So you are telling us that your deputy, along with you, was

8 accommodated in the PAPA 3 premises which were near the olympic stadium?

9 A. No, I wasn't accommodated there. I was in the PAPA

10 headquarters. And neither was my 2IC.

11 Q. Apart from your 2IC, how many people were there at the PAPA 3

12 point?

13 A. We always aimed to roster two people down there.

14 Q. On the 23rd of October, with respect to the incident that was

15 reported to you, did you get an official report as to the time and place

16 of that incident and the positions from which shots were fired at the

17 cemetery?

18 A. My second in command would have filled out an incident report, and

19 it would have been reported to the PTT in the normal way.

20 Q. Do you know whether on the 23rd of October, your second in command

21 did fill in the form and sent the report?

22 A. Yes, he did, because he then described what he had seen, and that

23 generated me to go and visit that location the following day. I made note

24 of it in my diary at that time.

25 Q. Can you tell us when and at what time on the 23rd of October you

Page 4470

1 received the report from your second in command as to the incident that

2 took place?

3 A. No, I did not record the time.

4 Q. Are you saying that you received the report of the incident on

5 that day?

6 A. Yes. He would have reported it on the 23rd, the day that he saw

7 it, and that's the day I made note of it in my diary. Regarding timings,

8 it was in broad daylight, and I cannot narrow it down to morning or

9 afternoon.

10 Q. And did the report contain a description of the positions from

11 which shells were fired at the Lav Cemetery?

12 A. To the north of the cemetery is the front line. The building was

13 struck on its north-facing side, which is where the door was in the

14 photographs that you saw. It was only a matter of a two-minute drive to

15 the north before you're at the front line. We did not see from where the

16 artillery or mortars that it was fired from. It was unexpected. So

17 no, he would not have reported from where it came because he did not see

18 where it came.

19 Q. So you are telling us that it was not in the report and that

20 you do not know from what direction and from what positions the shelling

21 of the cemetery, the Lav Cemetery, on the 23rd of October was carried out?

22 A. The weapons came from the north. And any more than that would

23 have been conjecture and just his opinion and we were only to report the

24 facts of what we saw. So he would have just said "from the north."

25 Q. Can you tell us on the basis of what you determined that the

Page 4471

1 shelling came from the north? What in the military sense led you to

2 conclude that the shots were fired from the north? And could you mark the

3 direction on the map, please, north in relation to the cemetery.

4 A. I marked on the map in black pen an arrow with an N which is

5 pointing towards the north. The Lion Cemetery and the stadium are to the

6 west of the arrow that I've drawn. The reason we would say that the

7 rounds came from the north is because that side of the building faces

8 north, and the round landed at the base of the north-facing slope.

9 Therefore, it would have been impossible to drop that round from any other

10 direction, because there was hills to the east and it was open ground to

11 the west. But the round would have had a strike mark pointing either east

12 or west if it came from that location.

13 Q. Can you tell us in relation to the direction you have indicated

14 whose army was concentrated there? Do you know that?

15 A. On the map, going down the road towards the stadium, there were a

16 lot of open ground, and the front line was in the approximate location of

17 the blue dotted line that was drawn yesterday. It was open ground to the

18 north of the blue dotted line were the Serbian army forces. To the south

19 of the blue dotted line were the BH forces.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief you told us that in

22 part of the PAPA 3 location near the Lion Cemetery, you saw armoured

23 vehicles, and that you observed them. Is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Can you tell us in relation to the cemetery, how far were these

Page 4472

1 armoured vehicles away from the cemetery?

2 A. To the east of PAPA 3 is an independent building, and these

3 armoured vehicles were to the east and to the south. From my

4 recollection, it was only about 200 metres on the south side of the

5 building and slightly on the eastern side of the building. But it was on

6 lower ground and you had to go through the building to see them.

7 Q. Do you know whether there were any soldiers in the building

8 protecting the APCs? When I say soldiers, I'm referring to the BH army

9 troops.

10 A. I don't know. I didn't see any.

11 Q. In your opinion, can you tell us whether the place where the APCs

12 were and the surrounding area constituted a military target?

13 A. By their nature, you could say that the armoured vehicles were a

14 military target. Regarding the surrounding area, I would say no because

15 there was nothing at all of a military nature.

16 Q. During your tour of duty, do you know whether these armoured

17 vehicles were used in certain operations by the BH army?

18 A. The vehicles were checked twice a day, and up until the time I

19 departed, they never moved.

20 Q. So I gather that your testimony was that the vehicles were not

21 used during your tour of duty?

22 A. That's correct. I didn't see them, and it was not reported to me

23 that they were moved which is why we moved the UNMOs from that location

24 because they were not being used to the best effect.

25 Q. Yesterday, you told us that PAPA 4 was located near the Kosevo

Page 4473

1 stadium. When was PAPA 4 located near the stadium Kosevo, in what period

2 of time?

3 A. When I arrived to the day I left, we always had UNMOs under the

4 stadium.

5 Q. Yesterday you spoke about mortars, 82, 120, and 60 millimetres

6 calibre which were located in the area where the hospital was. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. I didn't specify calibre. The staff sergeant who saw it didn't

9 specify a calibre. But he had reported through his command that the

10 mortars were fired around the hospital, within the environs of the

11 hospital.

12 Q. Do you know that the mortar activity from the hospital compound

13 was reported by your colleagues and your superior officer at the time,

14 Mr. Cutler?

15 A. The army staff sergeant would have reported it and it eventually

16 came to the Colonel, which is how I found out about it.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Mr. Harding, yesterday you spoke about the incident which occurred

19 on the 24th of September, 1992, and told us, that is, provided description

20 of the tanks which you said were moving south. I think the street in

21 question is the one connecting Nedzarici and the airport, at least that is

22 what you indicated on the map.

23 Could you tell us now from what direction these tanks were moving

24 towards Sarajevo?

25 A. They came from the east. They were heading west. They then

Page 4474

1 turned the corner and started to head north. They were going up the

2 primary road that goes past Dobrinja, past Nedzarici, and off to the

3 north.

4 Q. You told us that fire was opened from these tanks. Can you tell

5 us whether you yourself observed the incident the way you described, or is

6 it the case that somebody else told you about the incident?

7 A. I observed this myself because it was such a significant movement

8 of armour, the biggest that I'd seen to date. And that's why I watched

9 from the OP at PAPA 5. I personally watched it.

10 Q. Following this event, did you compile a report?

11 A. Yes. I would have filled out the incident report at PAPA 5, which

12 would have then been sent to PAPA headquarters.

13 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the incident which occurred on the 8th

14 of December, 1992, and told us that the shelling started at 10.00 and

15 lasted until 1600. The shells would have landed east of the headquarters

16 where you were, if I understood your testimony correctly.

17 A. The date you're referring to is the 31st of October, and that is

18 correct. They were landing to the east and to the west of PAPA

19 headquarters.

20 Q. Can you tell us and mark on the map the positions from which the

21 shells came?

22 A. No, I cannot say where the shells came as I did not see any of

23 them firing. I was merely in the middle of when they landed.

24 Q. Was it possible for you, on the basis of the position of the

25 shells that were falling in the area, to establish the direction from

Page 4475

1 which they had come?

2 A. No, you'd have to talk to someone from LIMA side.

3 Q. Can I therefore conclude that you cannot confirm at this point

4 that the shells had come from the positions under the BH army control, or

5 from the positions under the VRS control?

6 A. No, I cannot say where they came from.

7 Q. Witness, as a member of the United Nations and a military

8 observer, did you have an obligation to visit the site where incidents

9 occurred, specifically, would you visit the site of a sniping incident?

10 I'm not referring to you personally, but to your service.

11 A. No, we would not report sniping activity as an incident. However,

12 we would make note of where it was so that if we were going there, we

13 could take appropriate precautions.

14 Q. When you visited the scene of an incident in cases you had been

15 informed of an incident and an injury or a casualty, what type of activity

16 would you undertake? What kind of obligations did you have? Did you have

17 to file a report? Did you have to establish the positions from where the

18 fire was open and so on and so forth?

19 A. The incidents that were seen by the observation posts were

20 reported by the forms that I've previously described. If there was a

21 specific incident, I would have been tasked by Colonel Mole or Colonel

22 Cutler to go and attend the report in all respects. We were not there to

23 decide who had instigated it or where the shots had come from if we

24 couldn't see where they had come from. So there was very few incidents I

25 was tasked to, but I would try to look at everything so that the Colonel

Page 4476

1 had the facts and they were not biased to either side.

2 Q. During your tour of duty in Sarajevo as an UNMO, approximately how

3 often would you visit the scenes of sniping incidents, and is it possible

4 for you to describe for us one such incident and the measures that you

5 undertook on those occasions?

6 A. Sniping is regarded as small-arms fire and occurred all around the

7 city all the time. So we did not report sniping activity as it could not

8 be differentiated from the small-arms fire. If I did go to a sniping

9 incident and there was only one, was where a woman was shot dead and was

10 lying on the road to the west of PTT. We did not stop because of the risk

11 from sniping. It was a French battalion armoured personal carrier that

12 stopped and picked up the dead body, and I merely followed up that

13 incident by identifying the casualty, seeing where she had been shot. I

14 filled out a one-page report so that if the UNPROFOR were accused of

15 helping the casualties of one side the answer was already in the PTT and

16 it was merely on a more humanitarian reason, rather than taking a side.

17 Q. Is it your testimony that in respect of that sniping incident,

18 your team did not carry out an onsite investigation, nor did they

19 investigate the firing position, that is, the position from which the

20 shots were opened that hurt this woman? You merely assisted her?

21 A. That's correct, there was no specific onsite because it was

22 considered too dangerous to stand there.

23 Q. During your tour of duty in Sarajevo, you told us that there was

24 sniping activity in the town. Were there any protests lodged by the

25 warring factions with respect to the sniping activity, either you

Page 4477

1 personally or someone from your team?

2 A. No, not to my knowledge.

3 Q. Since you were positioned in town and had a number of colleagues

4 who patrolled around the town, were you at any point in time informed by

5 them about any specific locations inside the town from which sniper fire

6 was opened? Did you have any such information?

7 A. Yes, we did. To the east of PAPA headquarters, there were signs

8 on the corners of the road so that when you crossed that road, you knew

9 that you had to move quickly as a sniper had been firing down that road.

10 To the west, enroute to the PTT, we used the main carriageway, and it

11 was not uncommon to be fired at when you crossed the road at junctions.

12 And the fire would come from the south.

13 Q. Can you tell us whether you, as a United Nations military

14 observer, had the obligation following an incident such as a shelling

15 incident to verify the situation on the other side, depending on which

16 side opened fire? Did you have any duty to establish the direction from

17 which the fire came? That is, did you have to identify the side that

18 opened fire? Was that one of your obligations, or is it the case that you

19 only had to report on what you actually saw?

20 A. We would report the incident when we saw shells landing. We would

21 not say where they came from because you would be unable to tell when

22 observing from a distance. The LIMA side would report firing from their

23 positions. The collation of that information would have been one of the

24 duties in the PTT headquarters, UNPROFOR headquarters. Whether they tried

25 to establish the time of our reports of impacts to the time of their

Page 4478

1 reports of ShootReps, I am unaware. But I know that they were severely

2 undermanned to monitor the weapons around the outside of the city. If we

3 were to say where the rounds came from, it would be personal opinion and

4 conjecture which we didn't do.

5 Q. You've just told us that you made record of the number of

6 impacts. On the basis of what did you make your estimates of the number

7 of impacts in the area that was shelled? What was the manner in which you

8 proceeded?

9 A. Firstly, attention would be drawn to the area by the sound of the

10 explosion. Then by looking at the area, either with the naked eye or

11 binoculars, you would see the debris brought up by the explosion. It was

12 presumed that the number of explosions would be the same as the number of

13 rounds that landed on that position. So it was by hearing and observing

14 that the reports were made.

15 Q. These reports that you made, were they accurate in terms of

16 probability, or were they reports made on the basis of personal

17 observation?

18 A. The reports were made as observed by the military observer, and

19 the accuracy would be he was required to give a 6-figure grid reference

20 using the map that he was provided with.

21 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague,

22 you spoke about a multibarrel rocket launcher. On the map of the town,

23 can you indicate for us the positions from which the soldiers of the VRS

24 targeted the town and tell us which areas of the town were engaged by this

25 multiple-barrel rocket launchers?

Page 4479

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Page 4480

1 A. If you would look at the map, I'm pointing to the position that

2 was designated as PAPA 1, drawn on the map in blue ink with the number 1.

3 On the incident that I think you're referring to, we had moved slightly

4 around that hill. We were on the face that was facing towards the west,

5 and we had observed some shelling, came back around the corner of that

6 hill when the projectiles flew over our head. They were heading towards

7 the city in the direction that the pointer is laid as a straight line. We

8 just looked towards the city to see where they impacted, and we saw

9 munitions landing to the east of the PAPA headquarters, which is just

10 here. From that distance, we could only estimate how far to the east that

11 you could see the rounds as they exploded on the rooftops to the east.

12 To draw a backbearing to that, from the position we observed to the

13 position of impact, they must have come from the northwest of the city.

14 That would be, if I follow the pointer down, over towards the area of Zuc

15 and north of that, somewhere in this area.

16 That was how we presumed where they came from because we were in

17 an unusual position to have been overflown by the projectiles and see

18 where they landed. Therefore, we had two points which to draw a straight

19 line between. Normally, when the ammunition lands, it's only a single

20 point. You see the explosion so you don't know where it has come from.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would it assist you, Ms. Pilipovic, if I indicated

22 that the direction of the pointer the witness used was connecting the two

23 lower left corners of the triangles marked yesterday as PAPA 1 and PAPA

24 2.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4481

1 Q. Witness, can you tell us -- actually, did you tell us that it was

2 from the direction of Zuc that a projectile was fired from a multiple

3 rocket launcher? Is that what you indicated on the map?

4 A. The launcher must have been located northwest of PAPA 2 because of

5 the straight line. That line goes through where I've written on the map

6 the area of Zuc which we spoke about earlier. This is a hilly area, and

7 so it was somewhere maybe slightly to the north of where I wrote Z-U-C.

8 Q. Whose troops were concentrated in the area of Zuc?

9 A. To the best of my knowledge, that would be the -- possibly be the

10 Serbian army. That precise date that I saw them, I would have to revise

11 where the front line is drawn at the moment as BH forces had pushed their

12 way through Zuc and moved the front sign. So I would need to reconsider

13 exactly where the front line is, and also I have no experience of

14 multi-barreled rocket launchers, so I do not know their range and any

15 sighting requirements for them.

16 Q. Just one more question: When was that? In what period of time

17 while you were in Sarajevo?

18 A. That happened on the 8th of December, 1992.

19 Q. Was there already fighting going on in the area of Zuc?

20 A. Before the rounds flew over our heads, myself and Captain

21 MacDonald had been observing shell fire on the hill directly west of our

22 position. I'm indicating where we stood, just slightly west of the

23 position marked as PAPA 1. Where the marker is, this is the bottom of the

24 valley. This is the top of the valley, and there's a road just there.

25 And they were shelling that road.

Page 4482

1 Would you like me to somehow mark the map to show that?

2 Q. Yes, please.

3 Would you please also tell us what was the period of time when

4 this fighting for Zuc took place.

5 A. I've marked a cross where we stood. I'm not quite sure how to

6 mark it to delineate it from all the other markings on this map. I don't

7 know what you would suggest. This is where we stood at the cross, and the

8 road is marked by this black S-shaped line.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this, I think, would

10 be a convenient time for a break. And I will also finish my

11 cross-examination as far as this part is concerned, and my colleague will

12 continue tomorrow.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that we continue cross-examination

14 tomorrow and we will now proceed to the examination-in-chief of the next

15 witness? Would the Prosecution then prepare for examining the next

16 witness. We'll then adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

17 Mr. Harding, you may have noticed, for all kind of practical

18 reasons, your cross-examination and a possible re-examination by the

19 Prosecution will take place tomorrow. I know it's very inconvenient for

20 you, but we are more or less forced to do it this way as you might

21 have misunderstood. We apologise for that. So your presence is not

22 needed any more today, but tomorrow morning at 9.00 we'll start again in

23 this same courtroom.

24 THE WITNESS: I was due to return to the United Kingdom at 1600

25 hours today. I would need to sort out flights. Also, I have a

Page 4483

1 four-year-old son back in the United Kingdom being looked after by a

2 platoon of relatives. So I need to have a little look at that and see if

3 I'm able to do that or if I have to stay here, my wife and myself.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was, as a matter of fact, expecting that this

5 would have been discussed with you by the Prosecution. But it now turns

6 that it has not been because this is more or less the schedule we arranged

7 for yesterday. Perhaps it would have been wiser to keep you in the

8 courtroom instead of discussing the matter in your absence.

9 Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I had caused some inquiries to

11 be made of the Victims and Witnesses Unit as to whether it would impact on

12 the witness and I apologise. I had not received word back. That may be a

13 team issue, rather than a victims witness issue. In order to accommodate

14 the witness, Mr. President, I would have no -- the Prosecution would have

15 no problem with the witness returning to the UK, and then coming back to

16 The Hague at a later date for further cross-examination. In fact, given

17 that Mr. Kucanin has been waiting around for over an week, that would

18 enable us to continue with his evidence uninterrupted and provide more

19 time to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to finally hone into his cross-examination so

20 he fits within the remaining half an hour or so.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that Ms. Pilipovic is nodding that she

22 would agree. Let's then -- if you'd just discuss when the witness could

23 be recalled to further be cross-examined and inform this Chamber as soon

24 as possible. You'll understand that the Chamber has yet put any questions

25 to the witness, and I think that the less time we'll have in between the

Page 4484

1 continuation of the cross-examination and the breakup today of the

2 cross-examination, the better it would be.

3 And Ms. Pilipovic, you'd like to add something?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that the

5 Defence understands the problems that Mr. Harding is faced with, with his

6 family. So whenever you decide to recall Mr. Harding for further

7 cross-examination, we agree with that. We will be ready to proceed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So could you please arrange, then, Mr. Ierace,

9 that it would be as soon as possible, perhaps after we finish the

10 examination and cross-examination of Mr. Kucanin.

11 Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do apologise that the Chamber took some ten minutes

16 extra which was necessary to discuss a matter of the order which have no

17 consequences for the order at this moment, but that's the reason why we

18 are back a bit later than indicated.

19 Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I spoke to Mr. Harding, of course

21 strictly in relation to him returning to the Tribunal, during the break.

22 And he has told me that he will attempt to return to The Hague so that

23 he's in a position to continue his evidence on Thursday. I anticipate

24 that that will follow the evidence of Mr. Kucanin. He has an estimate of

25 three hours in chief. It's also been brought to my attention during the

Page 4485

1 break that [redacted] who was to be called immediately following

2 Mr. Kucanin is now seeking some protective measures. I would be grateful

3 if we could make an oral application, perhaps a little before we adjourn.

4 That will be done by Chester Stamp of the Prosecution team. Essentially,

5 the request relates to some issues which perhaps should be pursued in

6 closed session. Indeed, on reflection, I would respectfully ask that his

7 name be redacted.

8 The application can be expanded on at a later point, if that's

9 convenient to the Trial Chamber. Mr. President, all of that being said,

10 I'm now in a position to commence the examination-in-chief of Mirsad

11 Kucanin.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would this mean that you would like to have

13 redacted the name of the witness you just mentioned on the record of

14 today?

15 MR. IERACE: Yes, please. In case the application is successful.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I remind you, talking about protective

17 measures, that I think at the beginning of March we expect some witnesses

18 to be heard where I think no final decisions have yet been taken on the

19 protective measures and we are still waiting for some information. Would

20 you please check that, because that's my recollection. I'm not

21 specifically prepared to make this remark at this very moment, but since

22 you talked about protective measures it comes into my mind.

23 Yes, then, yes, I was interrupting you, Mr. Ierace, I see in the

24 transcript. "In case the application was successful," yes, that was your

25 last remark. We are at the moment where we can call your next witness.

Page 4486

1 Mr. Usher, would you please bring the witness into the courtroom.

2 Perhaps I may remind the parties if we want to continue the

3 cross-examination of Mr. Harding on Thursday, we have approximately half

4 an hour to go today. If you'd stay within the time limits, you'd use two

5 and a half hours tomorrow, which would leave us two more hours tomorrow

6 for the cross-examination, and we would then still have one hour for the

7 cross-examination on Thursday. But as soon as we have whatever kind of

8 delays we might not be able to finish the cross-examination of Mr. Harding

9 by Thursday. So may I specifically urge the parties to behave as

10 disciplined as possible.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've just received an email from a

12 member of my team who tells me that Mr. Kucanin will not be available to

13 the Trial Chamber for another 15 minutes. I don't know what the reason is

14 for that. But that being the case, perhaps we could make some use of this

15 time by me raising an issue that will arise in any event during the

16 examination-in-chief of Mr. Kucanin.

17 Mr. President, this witness has made three statements to the

18 investigators of the office of the Prosecution. Those statements, of

19 course, have been disclosed to the Defence. In one of those statements,

20 being a statement made on the 12th of November, 1995, the witness at great

21 length referred to a number of positions around Sarajevo. The witness was

22 a criminal inspector, that is, a member of the police force, during the

23 armed conflict in Sarajevo. And consequently investigated a large number

24 of incidents where civilians were the victims of small-arms fire or

25 shelling. As a result of his general experience, in that statement, he

Page 4487

1 listed a large number of places where in his opinion sniping originated on

2 the Bosnian Serb army side of the confrontation line. And similarly,

3 where shelling originated on the Bosnian Serb army of the confrontation

4 line. Had he been required to mark those positions during his evidence, I

5 anticipate he would have taken in excess of an hour just to do that.

6 Therefore, out of Court, he has marked a map with those various

7 positions. The Defence was notified of our intention to seek to tender

8 that map by letter dated I think the 21st of February, and copies of the

9 map were served at that time.

10 Yes, the 21st of February. Mr. President, if we're allowed to

11 follow that course, then we should comfortably conclude his evidence

12 within the three hours. I should think well within the three hours, so

13 perhaps whilst we await Mr. Kucanin's arrival, the Defence could perhaps

14 indicate if they have any difficulty with that.

15 Secondly, I note that Mr. Stamp is now present, and he could

16 elaborate in closed session on the situation in relation to the

17 aforementioned witness. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please first respond to the

19 request of Mr. Ierace to extender into evidence a premarked map with all

20 the positions.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at present the

22 Defence has only the statement of the 10th and 12th of November, 1995. As

23 for the rest of the file, it is with my colleague, because he is expected

24 Mr. Mirsad Kucanin to testify on Thursday. So I don't have the map in

25 front of me, and I cannot give you my answer now. I will be able to do so

Page 4488

1 tomorrow morning before we begin. All I have is a statement of the 10th

2 of November, 1995, and a few official notes, but I do not have the map in

3 front of me so I cannot discuss it now.

4 With your permission, the Defence would like to respond tomorrow

5 morning before the examination resumes, because my colleague was preparing

6 to examine Mr. Kucanin on Thursday.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not expressing the opinion of the Chamber

8 on what our decision would be even if we would allow you to respond

9 tomorrow morning. I think we should keep in mind that being surprised

10 during the examination-in-chief by a map slowly being marked over one hour

11 might not be a situation where the Defence is better off. But let's just

12 hear tomorrow from Mr. Piletta-Zanin briefly what his opinion is about the

13 production of this map, this premarked map.

14 I must say that I do appreciate that for time-saving reasons some

15 pretrial marking is done because this morning, I noticed that even the

16 direction north on a map still had to be marked, which seemed perhaps a

17 bit superfluous.

18 I understand that the witness is not yet available, so then

19 Mr. Stamp could explain to us the reasons for the protective measures. So

20 we have to go into closed session. Private would be enough, I think.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4489

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Page 4495

1 [redacted]

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3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 1.29 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Wednesday, the 27th day of February, 2000,

6 at 9.00 a.m.

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