Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4578

1 Thursday, 28 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom and those

6 assisting us just outside of this courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Ierace, before we -- and Ms. Pilipovic, before we continue the

12 examination-in-chief of Mr. Kucanin, I think there are two issues we have

13 to pay attention to. The first is that Ms. Pilipovic indicated yesterday

14 that you would inform the Chamber about the view of the Defence relating

15 to the expert report of Mr. Donia. Ms. Pilipovic, please tell us what

16 your view is.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the first issue that

18 my learned friend raised on Wednesday -- or Tuesday, was the question of

19 Berko Zecevic statement under 94 bis. I think that was the issue.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's a misunderstanding, but please tell us

21 what you would like to tell us.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. 94 bis, even if

23 its modified form, presumes -- says that the party which wishes to call an

24 expert witness needs to provide the statement. That is, we have the same

25 provision even now after the amendments of December. The only difference

Page 4579

1 is that previously the deadline was set, and that was the 21 days before

2 the date when the witness would be expected to testify. So the disclosure

3 of the statement or the document, report of the expert witness by the

4 party which intends to call that expert witness, and the only difference

5 being whether the Trial Chamber or the Pre-Trial Judge will prescribe the

6 entire limit within which it needs to be presented.

7 Now, my learned friend said that Rule 65 -- in line with Rule 65

8 ter, it is said in the submission of my learned friend that this is an

9 expert witness but the analysis was not disclosed, nor was it said last

10 time that he would be an expert, and that is why the Defence objects to

11 call Berko Zecevic on the date proposed by our learned friends because we

12 had not been provided with the report of the expert witness, nor were we

13 informed that he would be testifying as an expert witness. So these are

14 the two reasons for our objection against his testimony on the date

15 suggested by our learned friends.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you like to respond right away or

17 would you rather do it later today?

18 MR. IERACE: Would you allow me a minute, Mr. President?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have some difficulty in

22 understanding the two bases of the objection, but I think one of them as

23 to whether there has been timely disclosure. Mr. Stamp will respond in

24 relation to that ground now. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

Page 4580

1 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours. The

2 objection is based on the timing of the disclosure. Subject to correction

3 from friends, but my record indicates that the relevant report was

4 disclosed to the Defence on the 8th of June, 2000, and it was again

5 disclosed to the Defence on the 26th of November, 2001. I don't know if

6 that accords with the records of my learned friends, but these are the

7 records that we have, that the documents were disclosed two years ago and

8 also last year.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, let's check on whether this is

10 correct or not, but it's my understanding that the objection is based upon

11 the fact that whether the report has been disclosed or not, that it was

12 not clear to the Defence that this would be presented as an expert

13 witness, and they assumed, as far as I understand, that it would be an

14 ordinary witness or -- well, of course we have not received these

15 documents, so it's difficult for me at this moment to assess whether this

16 is right or not. Do I understand you right, Ms. Pilipovic?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you do, Your Honour. I have

18 to report that the Defence has not received the expert report of that

19 gentleman, Mr. Berko Zecevic, whom the Prosecution wishes to call as an

20 expert witness. We only have his statement as a witness, only his witness

21 statement, not his expert report.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it should be a simple matter to

24 clarify during the course of the day, the date of disclosure of the report

25 upon which the Prosecution relies as expert evidence, so we will confirm

Page 4581

1 the date and advise the Trial Chamber accordingly. On re-reading my

2 friend's objection, I think I understand the second objection to be that

3 she assumed, under the old Rule, there would be at least 21 days notice.

4 If that's the case, then my response is that the new Rule came into being

5 in December and that overrules the old Rule. There is a further issue

6 which I understand to be that the witness has not been previously

7 identified as an expert. That takes us back to the text of the 65 ter

8 summary. The first sentence of that summary is: "This witness, a

9 mechanical engineer, is a highly-qualified expert in heavy weapons

10 technology." And it continues on from there.

11 The next -- the third sentence is: "He will testify about the

12 operation and effect of the 120-millimetre mortar round," and goes on from

13 there.

14 So I say that the Defence is on notice that this witness is "a

15 highly-qualified expert" and would give certain expert evidence. The

16 title of the 65 ter summary did not identify him as an expert witness, and

17 that's why I raised the issue the other day, so there would be no

18 misunderstanding, and invite my friends to respond. But under the new

19 Rule, we have not breached any time constraint imposed by the Rules.

20 Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first of all invite the parties that

22 perhaps during the breaks today, whether they could achieve some kind of a

23 settlement. I mean, it's all a matter of time, as far as I can see. I

24 mean, even if there would have been some misunderstanding as to the

25 quality of this witness or expert, I mean, this finally could not exclude

Page 4582

1 him from giving evidence in this courtroom, I mean, just on the basis of

2 that. So may I invite the parties to see whether they can reach whatever

3 agreement so that we don't have to give complex decisions on whether newly

4 adopted Rules are also valid for those documents that have been disclosed

5 before or that the time of -- the moment on which the Prosecution

6 indicates that they would like to present a report as expert evidence

7 would be decisive. I mean, of course, as all professional lawyers, we

8 could spend days and days on that, but I prefer to see whether the parties

9 can reach an agreement on when this witness or expert report will be

10 presented as part of the Prosecution's case, so that there would be a fair

11 opportunity to cross-examine either on the basis of the report or on the

12 testimony of the witness given in court.

13 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I see

15 that you realise what is at the core of the problem. On the 29th of

16 October, my learned friend, under Rule 65 ter, disclosed the summary of

17 the statement, but it was not said that it was an expert witness. The

18 fact that it says in the text that he is an expert does not mean that he

19 can also be examined as an expert witness. Besides, at that time we had

20 the unamended 94 bis, and then it was said that the party wishing to call

21 an expert witness will disclose within a certain time limit; and then

22 secondly, within 14 days the opposing party needed to say whether it

23 accepted the report or whether to cross-examine the witness, and I think

24 that our learned friends did not act in accordance even with the previous

25 94 bis.

Page 4583

1 JUDGE ORIE: I invite you to find a solution for the problem. If,

2 Ms. Pilipovic, if it would be the position of the Defence that because, as

3 you explained, Rule 94 bis would not have been observed properly by the

4 Prosecution and that therefore the expertise could not be admitted into

5 evidence, then I'd like to know, because then we'll have to give a

6 decision on that. But if that's not your position, I'd like you to

7 discuss the matter with the Prosecution and see what solution as far as

8 the time and the preparation of cross-examination is concerned could be

9 found. Yes?

10 So I'll then close this issue for the time being, and I promised

11 you that I would give you a decision on the pre-marked map we discussed

12 yesterday. If the objection of the Defence on the admission into evidence

13 of the pre-marked map would be solely based on the fact that the Defence

14 would have had no opportunity to be present while the map -- or while this

15 document was marked, it would have been denied, since documents that have

16 been drawn, like sketches or markings on photographs or on maps, as we've

17 seen many of them in this trial. So if these documents marked by a

18 witness while giving a statement to the investigators of the OTP, these

19 documents may be relevant and they may have probative value, and therefore

20 they will usually satisfy the basic test of Rule 89(C). The claim that

21 such documents would only be admissible as evidence once they were

22 produced in the presence of Defence counsel finds no basis, neither in the

23 Statute or in the Rules. Of course, the Defence may cross-examine any

24 witness whose testimony relates to such exhibits on the content of such an

25 exhibit and also on the way the exhibit was produced, and of course the

Page 4584

1 Defence may also present any relevant evidence in relation to the content

2 of such documents or on the documents themselves when the Defence is

3 presenting its case.

4 In this particular case, however, some doubt has been raised as to

5 the relevance of the markings on the map the Prosecutor seeks to be

6 admitted. The witness has testified that most of his investigations of

7 incidents involving casualties were performed between August 1994 and

8 December 1995. He also testified, on the other hand, that the knowledge

9 of sources of fire that he marked on the map were known to him already

10 during the time relevant to the indictment, that is, from September 1992

11 until August 1994, based on the results of his own investigations and

12 those of his police colleagues.

13 The Defence has put forward that the statement mentioned by the

14 Prosecutor which the markings of the maps would be based refers frequently

15 to the investigation of incidents that took place after August 1994. All

16 together, there seems to be a dispute as to the relevance of the markings

17 in relation to the statements. In this situation of at least some

18 confusion as to the relevance, the Chamber prefers that a blank map would

19 be used while examining the witness so that we can have full control on

20 whatever relevance issue that might be raised.

21 Mr. Ierace, I asked you to prepare for both situations. I'm

22 certain you will have done so. So it's now time, I think, to ask

23 Mr. Kucanin to be brought into the courtroom again so that you may

24 continue your examination.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst that's done, earlier you

Page 4585

1 referred to the testimony, the expert testimony of Robert Donia. That, of

2 course, is a matter that has to be dealt with under the Rules, so perhaps

3 sometime in the next few days the Defence could indicate its position

4 under Rule 94 bis in respect of that evidence. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The time limit has not been lapsed, as far as I

6 can see.

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,

9 good morning and thank you for the decision that you took. This brings us

10 to another request, namely, very exceptional possibility with regard to

11 this witness to be allowed to examine this witness jointly by my colleague

12 and me, given that Mr. Ierace and his colleague could take the floor

13 previously. We should like both to examine this witnesses. We will be

14 testifying more about sniping than about shelling on the one hand, and on

15 the other, the Defence is once again placed in a position from which

16 it cannot get out. I will indicate this to the Chamber. I am pointing

17 only one of the example, which perhaps will help us not to waste time. I

18 received from the Prosecution some documents which have the following

19 numbers, and I will give them slowly for the interpreters and for the

20 transcript: 00269222A, 226 is the last one. These documents have to do

21 with two shells fired about which the witness testified yesterday.

22 However, it is not only that these documents are mutually confounding, but

23 you will see that the first document, which is 222, has -- refers to a

24 shelling incident of 3493, and the second one has to do with an incident

25 which is 30 -- 43093, but it has the same number. I have the photocopy

Page 4586

1 for this now. The photograph which we received concerning one of these

2 incidents is this one here. It is impossible, Mr. President, with a

3 photograph like this, to once again -- to use this, and we are showing you

4 because nobody knows what is provided in this information. When we have

5 information like this, we are wasting the time. And I am placing it at

6 the disposal of the Chamber. We need to re-organise ourselves, and that

7 is why we are asking now to conduct jointly the cross-examination, on the

8 one hand, so that we can prepare for it; and secondly, during the break,

9 Mr. Ierace and myself could check what happened with this document, which

10 we are quite -- that we are -- so that we make sure that nothing has

11 been -- no, not hidden from us, but withheld from us, because if this is

12 the photograph which is showing a possible military target in that area, I

13 do remember the witness, while testifying yesterday, of course, this

14 photograph requires particular importance. Thank you very much for your

15 attention, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ask already for a copy which is not just

17 black and white, but in the true sense of the word to the Prosecution?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I admit, I did

19 not dare comment at 3.00 in the morning. However, I will do it the next

20 time, because it was -- when I looked at these elements yesterday and when

21 we were faced with the text and we thought that the text was the same in

22 both situations. And that was something that we realised too late,

23 because we had other photographs which are more clear. However, we did

24 not check the numbers, whether the same text there were other

25 photographs. It is only last night that we discovered that.

Page 4587

1 JUDGE ORIE: The dedication of both Mr. Piletta-Zanin and

2 Mr. Ierace to their case makes me to assume that, if necessary, you would

3 make the phone call at 3.00 at night and Mr. Ierace would be glad to

4 receive it at 3.00 at night.

5 Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: I would just add, Mr. President, that we have invited

7 the Defence to inspect any documents they wish to which we have given them

8 copies of, and we received no response to that. It would be more

9 appropriate, I think, before my friend raises those issues first in court,

10 that he approach us to at least see the original and see if it's any

11 better than the blank copy that he has received, or at least invite us to

12 check that. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just make one general remark. First of

14 all, the Prosecution could pay proper attention that photographs are not

15 just black boxes if they are disclosed to the Prosecution -- to the

16 Defence. And the Defence, if they receive a black box, as we all know, in

17 black boxes, you don't know what is in it, could first of all address the

18 Prosecution and not spend any time on it in Court, but after they've asked

19 for clarification.

20 I think then, Mr. Usher, we could --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted

22 to know whether we could cross-examine the witness together, jointly, and

23 I haven't received the answer.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will decide at the very moment

25 where you could start the cross-examination.

Page 4588

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kucanin.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you can hear

5 me in a language that you understand.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kucanin, may I remind you that you gave a solemn

8 declaration yesterday and that you are, during the whole examination, you

9 are bound by that solemn declaration.

10 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be given a copy

12 of P3658. I have six copies at the bar table.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Since it might facilitate the preparation of the

14 Defence, the Chamber has decided by now that you will be allowed to

15 cross-examine the witness, but not simultaneously, but one after the

16 other.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace, as soon as we're ready

20 with the map.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

25 Q. Mr. Kucanin, yesterday you said that your investigations were

Page 4589

1 confined to impacts from both sniping and shelling, which affected

2 civilians rather than military people. I'd like you to mark some

3 particular positions on the map in front of you. Firstly, in relation to

4 shelling, you also said yesterday that you developed, through your

5 investigations, an understanding based on ballistics analysis conducted by

6 ballistics experts in the police service of the source of shelling fire,

7 especially repeated sources of shelling fire. As you look at the map, and

8 perhaps starting at the top right-hand corner, I'd like you to mark those

9 places. But firstly, please keep this in mind: Please only mark places

10 which you knew to be sources of shelling fire between September 1992 and

11 August of 1994. Would you please mark the first position with the letter

12 A, starting in the top right-hand corner. And perhaps first of all you

13 could point to it and tell us what it is.

14 A. This is the village of Mrkovici, in this area here.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you excuse me for one moment.

16 Might I have access to the map which the witness has in front of him?

17 Thank you. Might that be returned to the witness. I simply wished to

18 check, Mr. President, that there were no pre-markings on it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whenever it comes to marking of names of

20 villages or streets, would it be a suggestion that as soon as the name

21 appears on the map, that the party indicates on what location it is. For

22 example, if I look at the first village indicated by the witness, which is

23 in the right top corner, is Mrkovici, that we just say where it is written

24 on the map M1 and 2, for example. It's quite a clear map and it saves us

25 a lot of marking and -- so whenever the name is on the map, that we just

Page 4590

1 indicate in what part of the map it is, using the numbers and the letters

2 on the map.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will, Mr. President.

4 Q. Would you please place with a blue marker the capital letter A

5 alongside Mrkovici.

6 A. Mrkovici?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And I take it, having regard to my earlier question, you knew that

10 to be a source of shelling fire during the period of time that I earlier

11 mentioned; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Whereabouts did the shells land in that period of time that you

14 understood to be fired from that area?

15 A. The shells fell in the upper part of the town, in the Stari Grad

16 municipality and the Centar municipality. One of them hit the Markale

17 market in February 1994.

18 Q. Moving further around the map, what is the next area that you come

19 to, perhaps moving around and to the right, if there is any area you know

20 which is not on the map, please tell us.

21 A. Here on the right side, behind number 4 should be the location

22 which is called Burije. However, I cannot see it on this map. But it

23 is situated somewhere near number 4 that I'm pointing now with my marker.

24 The name of the place is Burije, and that's where the town was targeted

25 from with heavy artillery.

Page 4591

1 Q. Please place a capital B alongside number 4.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And continue to make your way clockwise around the map to the next

4 relevant point.

5 A. The Trebevic mountain is here. It is overlooking Sarajevo. And

6 this part here to the right from Zlatiste is sometimes referred to as the

7 south-western side of the hill. As far as I know, there were several

8 positions here from where the upper parts of the old town were targeted.

9 Q. All right. Yes, please place a capital C.

10 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, that is in the region of N8.

11 Q. Now, would you draw a line around the relevant part of the slope

12 of Trebevic. I think you said it was the south-eastern part.

13 A. It is this part here. Do you want me to draw a line?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. Another location from which projectiles came and hit the town, as

18 far as I know, is located on the slopes of Trebevic, and it is called

19 Zlatiste. It's here.

20 Q. Please --

21 A. The spot that I'm pointing with my marker.

22 Q. Please place a capital D in that position.

23 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, that is M8.

24 Q. Were there any particular villages in that area?

25 A. I don't know whether there were any around Zlatiste. There was a

Page 4592

1 barracks called Bosut, a Serb army barracks which was situated in the

2 vicinity, and it was from that barracks that shells came. But I don't

3 know about villages. I know that the MUP had a recreational centre there

4 before the war which was taken over by Serb forces and converted into a

5 military base, which then constituted a serious danger for the town.

6 Q. All right. Please continue to move in a clockwise direction along

7 the map. What is the next source of shelling fire in that period of time?

8 A. Slightly above Zlatiste is the village of Miljevic, which was also

9 a notorious place, because it was an artillery emplacement.

10 Q. Given its proximity to D, could you please mark that capital D

11 with a small 1 alongside it.

12 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, I think that is L8.

13 Q. Please continue.

14 A. Also in the vicinity there was a village in respect of which we

15 received information that its name was Petrovici. However, I'm not sure

16 that that was the name of the hamlet, so I should not perhaps refer to it

17 as Petrovici. However from what I know, and from intelligence received,

18 it was from this area. However, I don't want to speak about it, because

19 I'm not sure.

20 Let me move to the area of Vraca. Which is situated right above

21 the Grbavica neighbourhood, which was occupied by Serb forces. There was

22 a MUP school which was located at Vraca, which used to belong to the

23 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but which was taken over by Bosnian

24 Serbs at one point in time. It was a very important stronghold for them

25 and it was from there, from the vicinity of the MUP school that fire was

Page 4593

1 opened. At one point in time, professors and students of this school were

2 held captive in this school.

3 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, I think you're referring to J7.

4 Just before you mark that, are there any other areas which appear on the

5 map which were known to you in that period as a result of your

6 investigations and the investigations of your fellow inspectors to be a

7 source of shelling fire?

8 A. You mean before Vraca or here?

9 Q. Is there anything further south of Vraca that fits that

10 description, that is, further down the map, towards the bottom of the

11 map. I direct your attention to further down the map, that is, in a

12 southerly direction, perhaps west -- or east of the airport, due east of

13 the airport.

14 A. I'm really not an expert, as I told you. East of the airport, do

15 you mean this area here?

16 Q. We'll leave that for now. Perhaps we'll go back to Vraca. Would

17 you mark the area you earlier indicated with the capital letter E.

18 A. [Marks]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if I may just interrupt you. When the

20 witness's testimony was about Vraca, you indicated that he was pointing at

21 J7. He is marking -- and as far as my recollection goes, he also pointed

22 at K7.

23 MR. IERACE: I stand corrected, Mr. President. It is K7.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


Page 4594

1 Q. Now, in relation to Vraca, what type of fire emanated from that

2 area? At this stage I'm not talking about sniper fire, but mortars or

3 shells of some description.

4 A. Both mortar, artillery, and gunfire came from the area of Vraca.

5 As I indicated, it was one of the most important strongholds of the VRS

6 situated close to the town, as you can see. Right in front of it there is

7 the very centre, the very heart of the town.

8 Q. All right. Please continue.

9 A. In this area right above the neighbourhood of Dobrinja, there is

10 the hill of Gavrica, the Gavrica hill. However, I cannot locate it on

11 this map. However, I know that the entire area of Dobrinja was shelled

12 from artillery pieces from this position. I think that it was here.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, I think that's I9.

14 Q. Would you please place a capital F in that position, and we

15 understand that you cannot be precise about the location when you do so.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Please continue.

18 A. In the vicinity of Dobrinja I, there used to be a church, if my

19 memory serves me right -- the name was Meljine -- from where the

20 neighbourhood of Dobrinja was targeted from mortar pieces.

21 Q. Would you please place a G in that position.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And I think that is H9, approximately.

24 What type of church was it? Do you know?

25 A. An Orthodox church.

Page 4595

1 Q. What sort of non-sniper fire came from that source?

2 A. Mortar shells.

3 Q. I think you said that it was known as Meljine; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, something like that.

5 Q. All right. Please continue.

6 A. At the spot that I'm indicating right now is the area of

7 Nedzarici, where a VRS military barracks was located, and it was from this

8 location that this part of the town was shelled, that is, the Alipasino

9 Polje and Alipasin Most areas, the Alipasin bridge.

10 Q. Would you please place a capital H on that position.

11 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, it is F8.

12 Q. Please continue.

13 A. At this spot here, there used to be a forestry training or school

14 centre, from where the free parts of the Ilidza municipality, Sokolovic

15 Kolonija, and Hrasnica, were targeted from artillery and mortar pieces,

16 including the Igman road, which was used for bringing in food and other

17 supplies.

18 Q. Please mark that position with a capital I.

19 MR. IERACE: And for the record, I think that's C10.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Please continue.

22 A. Here, in this area, right above the village of Ahatovici,

23 towards the end of the map, there is a flat land, a plateau, called

24 Paljevo, from where the entire lower part of the town was shelled. The

25 Rajlovac area, Buca Potok, all civilian, purely civilian areas, and other

Page 4596

1 lower parts of the Sarajevo town. From my investigations where civilians

2 were the victims, I know that the projectiles came from this area. I

3 don't know the word -- I cannot see the word "Paljevo" here on the map,

4 but I know this area was called Paljevo. I used to live nearby.

5 Q. To the best of your ability, could you place a capital letter J in

6 the position of Paljevo. And I appreciate you have some difficulty in

7 locating it precisely.

8 A. [Marks].

9 MR. IERACE: A2, Mr. President.

10 Q. Please continue.

11 A. In this area here, there is the village Krivoglavci, situated near

12 the municipality of Vogosca. It is from this location that mortars

13 shelled the free parts of the municipality of Vogosca.

14 Q. Please place a capital letter L -- I'm sorry -- K in that

15 position.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Could you state the name of that village again, please?

18 A. Krivoglavci.

19 Q. Thank you. Please continue.

20 A. On this map, I don't see the part situated right above Vogosca.

21 You see the word "Vogosca" here. However, what's lacking is Blagovac,

22 which was a notorious stronghold from where fire was opened from tanks and

23 mortar pieces on the free parts of the Vogosca municipality, including

24 Kobilja Glava. The location is slightly behind this spot here.

25 Q. Please place a capital letter L off the map in the approximate

Page 4597

1 area.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. Please continue.

4 A. This area is called Poljine. It is a wider area comprising

5 several places, from where the centre of Sarajevo was targeted from

6 various artillery pieces. That is the areas around the Kosevo stadium

7 Kobilja Glava, the city cemetery and also the road which lead here through

8 these neighbourhoods which are linked with the centre of town.

9 Q. All right. Now, you're pointing at this stage, I think, to a

10 position on the map of K1; is that correct? All right. Would you please

11 place a capital letter M on that position.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. You say that that was a source of fire from various

14 artillery pieces. What about mortars?

15 A. All this -- oh, you mean at Poljine?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes, yes. Yes. I meant mortars too.

18 Q. Please continue.

19 A. And somewhere here, where I'm pointing, that is where Kromolj is.

20 I mentioned it yesterday. And from it, both artillery and sniper fire was

21 opened at this part of the city near the Kosevo stadium and neighbourhoods

22 of Bare, Breka, and this area here which links the neighbourhoods of

23 the city.

24 Q. Please place an N in that position, and that's L2 on it's map.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 4598

1 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, what about the barracks at Lukavica?

2 During that period of time, did you or any of your fellow investigators

3 establish a source of shelling fire or mortar fire as being the Lukavica

4 barracks?

5 A. That's right. There are the Rajlovac and Lukavica barracks. The

6 two barracks where the army of Republika Srpska was quartered, and in

7 Lukavica they had heavy artillery. And from Rajlovac they razed to the

8 ground a locality called Sokolac.

9 Q. All right. I think you've already marked the Rajlovac barracks

10 as K. Would you please mark the Lukavica barracks with the letter O.

11 A. [Marks]

12 MR. IERACE: And I think that's J10 for the record. I'm sorry.

13 Yes, J10.

14 Q. All right, Mr. Kucanin, are there any other sources of shelling

15 fire which are relevant to that particular period of time that appear on

16 the map, or have you marked those which you knew from those sources of

17 information?

18 A. I did not mark the Rajlovac barracks, and it's here. And all the

19 neighbourhoods along the railroad tracks and the road, I mean, all the

20 civilian neighbourhoods were at peril, at risk.

21 Q. You marked the area with the letter K. That was, I think, the

22 village of Krivoglavici. Would you mark the barracks at Rajlovac with the

23 letter P, capital P.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Are there any other sources of shelling fire for that period that

Page 4599

1 you haven't marked on the map, to your knowledge?

2 A. Well, often mention was made of Biosko and the area about

3 Faletici. If you follow it closely, Sarajevo is in a hollow and it is

4 surrounded by hills, and from many of these hills, I mean, it was easy to

5 place mortars or whatever and open fire because the city was down there as

6 if in the palm of your hand. All the targets were quite visible. You

7 could spot every single person that was there, so fire could be opened.

8 Q. All right. Would you now please return to the north-eastern

9 corner of the map, that's the top right hand section. I will invite you

10 to do the same exercise moving in a clockwise direction in relation to

11 sources of sniping fire that were identified from either your

12 investigations or those of your fellow investigators in the same period of

13 time. What is the first such position as you move clockwise around the

14 map from the north eastern corner?

15 A. The first such position is the ill-famed hill called --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must object to this

17 question, because it refers once again to hearsay. What I see from the

18 text, the question was as follows: "Identified from either your

19 investigations or those of your fellow investigators," literally. I think

20 that to examine this witness about the investigations of his fellow

21 investigators does not seem either logical or acceptable to me.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you might have noticed, the

24 case law of this Tribunal does not forbid hearsay evidence to be

25 presented. On the other hand, Mr. Ierace, the Chamber would very much

Page 4600

1 like to know whenever the witness gives information, whether it is from

2 his own investigations or from investigations of his fellow police

3 officers, so that we are better equipped to assess the probative value of

4 the testimony. Please proceed.

5 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Kucanin, would you please look at the position A that you

7 marked on the map. I think that was Mrkovici.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. From what source of information did you establish Mrkovici as a

10 source of fire during that relevant period of time? Was it from your own

11 investigations or the investigations of your fellow investigators?

12 A. My own. But perhaps I can help by explaining this. We had

13 investigating teams, and one investigator would be the leader investigator

14 and he would be the one to draw up the report, the official note, and

15 everything that had to do with that particular investigation. And then

16 several of us would be the -- what shall I call us? The auxiliary staff,

17 and we would all be helping this particular lead investigator.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a two-fold problem.

20 We have a spacial and a temporal problem, that is, not only one problem.

21 We have a problem with space and a problem with time. We therefore need

22 to know quickly when this witness speaks about his investigations, that he

23 speaks about those prior to August 1994 or after that. That is, we must

24 always pinpoint in time the knowledge of the witness.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that was --

Page 4601

1 JUDGE ORIE: Also specify in your questioning the time in which

2 the investigations took place.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I did at page 23, line 8.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree that you limited at that very moment

5 to the period relevant to the indictment. So -- but perhaps I may please,

6 then, remind the witness, then.

7 Mr. Kucanin, when we are talking about your investigations, please

8 keep in mind that Mr. Ierace started his questioning specifically asking

9 you about the period of time September 1992 until August 1994. So if

10 there's any source of knowledge, for example, investigations either made

11 by yourself or under your supervision by fellow police officers, which are

12 outside these time limits, would you please indicate this. Yes.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


15 Q. During your investigations in that period of time, that relevant

16 period of time of September 1992 to August 1994, what role did you play in

17 your investigations? Were you the lead investigator or one of the

18 auxiliary investigators?

19 A. I was the lead investigator in about 20 cases, and in about as

20 many, perhaps, I would be the -- I was the assistant investigator.

21 Q. Thank you. You've told us that Mrkovici was established as a

22 source of shelling fire based on your investigations during that relevant

23 period. What about position B, that is, Burije, which you identified as

24 being slightly off the map?

25 A. I did not conduct any investigation to do with Burije, but my

Page 4602

1 partner did that. I know that he conducted the investigation, and it was

2 established that it had come from Burije.

3 Q. And that's in the relevant period of time, is it?

4 A. Yes, yes. That's right. I am referring to that period only all

5 the time.

6 Q. Thank you for that. Position C, the south-eastern part of

7 Trebevic, did that arise from your investigations?

8 A. My investigations, because I conducted investigations in the upper

9 part here.

10 Q. Incidentally, apart from your investigations, was it established

11 as a source of fire by other investigations in that relevant period of

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Going back briefly to Mrkovici, you've told us you established

15 that as a source of fire from your investigations. Was it also

16 established as a source of fire during that relevant period by other

17 investigations?

18 A. Yes, and repeatedly so.

19 Q. In relation to position D, that is, the area of Zlatiste, what is

20 the position with that source of fire? In other words, in the relevant

21 period, was it identified by you or by other investigators or by both?

22 A. Both by me and by others.

23 Q. In relation to position D1, the village of Miljevic, was that

24 identified in the relevant period by your investigations, those of your

25 fellow investigators, or both?

Page 4603

1 A. My fellow investigators.

2 Q. In relation to Vraca, that is, position E, what is the situation?

3 A. I did that, and my colleagues too.

4 Q. Position F, Gavrica Brdo. I'm sorry. Position F was -- could

5 you please go to position F on the map. Which location is F?

6 A. Gavrica Brdo. Gavrica hill.

7 Q. Was the situation with Gavrica Brdo? In other words, was it your

8 investigations or those of your fellow own investigators or both

9 during the relevant period of time?

10 A. During the period under investigation, I was assistant

11 investigator on a number of occasions when investigations were conducted

12 establishing that, and again, my colleagues did that even on those

13 occasions when I wasn't a part of the team.

14 Q. Position H, that's the BSA barracks in Nedzarici?

15 A. This is my personal experience and also my colleagues'. Yesterday

16 I mentioned two cases that I handled, and on both of those occasions, the

17 projectiles came from the direction of Nedzarici.

18 Q. Position I, that is, the forestry school?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I -- am I wrong when I missed G, or ...?

20 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President, you're not wrong. That's my

21 oversight.

22 Q. Before we go to the forestry school, position I, would you please

23 go to position G.

24 A. My partner and I, as his assistant, did an investigation here,

25 when the projectiles came from the direction of the church at Meljine.

Page 4604

1 And may I address O, which is right next to it?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. This is the Lukavica barracks, and I have personal experience from

4 there and quite a number of my investigators conducted investigations

5 here, establishing that the projectiles had come from the direction of

6 Lukavica.

7 Q. You say quite a number. Do you mean by that, that was a

8 stronger source of fire than some of the others you have mentioned, a more

9 frequent source of fire, I should say?

10 A. Yes, that is a better word, "more frequent," yes.

11 Q. And given the confines of the investigators' department, I take it

12 you're referring to it being a source of fire where there were civilian

13 casualties.

14 A. That's right, yes.

15 Q. Would you please now go to I, that is, the forestry school, and

16 tell us whether that was identified as a result of your investigations in

17 the relevant period or those of your fellow investigators, or both.

18 A. On one occasion, my vehicle was hit on the road, and I sustained a

19 back injury. And we conducted the investigation. So it is from my

20 personal experience that I can say when I was wounded, and it was

21 established that the projectiles came from the school centre, and my other

22 colleagues also conducting investigations establishing the same thing, the

23 same source.

24 Q. What sort of source was it? Was it a mortar round or an artillery

25 shell or what?

Page 4605

1 A. Anti-aircraft. I think it was 40-millimetre, the Bofors type,

2 more or less, which is an anti-aircraft gun.

3 Q. Would you please now go to J. That, I think, is the region

4 Paljevo, on the top left-hand section of the map, where you had a little

5 difficulty in identifying precisely where it was from the map. Is that

6 from your investigations or those of your fellow investigators, or both,

7 during the relevant period?

8 A. During the period under consideration, it was my colleagues who

9 did that. I didn't. I worked there at a later time, not during that

10 particular period here. It was all my colleagues.

11 Q. All right. The next addition I think is K. Could you identify

12 again the name of that area.

13 A. Krivoglavci.

14 Q. Thank you. What is the situation with the identification of

15 Krivoglavci as a source of fire?

16 A. My colleagues' report and from the police station at Vogosca.

17 Q. And I think the next area is the Blagovac hill; is that

18 correct? That's L.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. What is the situation with the identification of that source of

21 fire?

22 A. I and my partner -- or rather, my partner was the lead

23 investigator, but I worked there together with him, and there were two

24 civilian persons, an adult and a child, in the neighbourhood of Barice,

25 and we established that the projectile had come from the direction of

Page 4606

1 Blagovac.

2 Q. M, that's Kromolj. I think M was Poljine.

3 A. Yes, Poljine.

4 Q. Yes. That's the situation with that, with Poljine being

5 identified?

6 A. I assisted in the investigation there on several occasions, and we

7 established that the projectiles had come from the direction of Poljine.

8 And the same holds true of Kromolj, marked with N.

9 Q. All right. And now we come back to the identification of the

10 sniping sites. Would you go to the top right-hand portion of your map,

11 and commencing from that position and moving in a clockwise direction

12 around the map, could you take us to the sources of sniping fire that were

13 identified by either you or your fellow investigators, or both, during the

14 relevant period. And as you identify them, could you tell us which it

15 was, whether it was your investigations or the others or both.

16 A. Here, where I'm pointing now, is Grdonj, a hill called Grdonj, and

17 Sedrenik is the area here. In between is the ill-famed Spicasta Stijena,

18 the spiked rock, as they called them, and from there a sniper targeted the

19 villages around, and many people were wounded here, and the old part of

20 the city, the Kovacici one. I participated -- I conducted one of the

21 investigations,

22 and my colleagues performed many more such investigations there.

23 Q. Please mark that with a number 1.

24 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, that's N3.

25 Q. You described that as being ill-famed. I take it from your choice

Page 4607

1 of words that it had a particular notoriety; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, so it is. So it is. I said that very many civilian

3 casualties were there. It is a rock outcrop and it was very easy to

4 target civilians from it.

5 Q. Moving around the map, what is the next relevant position that you

6 can identify?

7 A. Here, where I'm pointing now, is a place called Osmice. After a

8 hostel that was called that, and the road which sort of made that kind

9 of bends, and that is why it was called. And from that place you -- the

10 whole city could practically be controlled by the so-called Death Sowers,

11 and the snipers and all types of other rifles. I think it was from this

12 place and from Vraca, I think that from these two places the largest

13 number of projectiles were fired at the city. I conducted several

14 investigations there, and at least -- in at least one case I was the lead

15 investigator, in some of them I assisted, and there were a number of cases

16 also when my fellow investigators performed those investigations.

17 Q. Please mark that with a number 2.

18 MR. IERACE: And for the transcript, that is M7.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. IERACE: Time for one more, Mr. President?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have better expectation, as far as I can

22 see, from how many numbers approximately might still follow. I promised

23 everyone that I have a full break of half an hour, so I'm not stealing the

24 time you need to recover from the first hour. If it would be five or

25 seven minutes and if the interpreters' booth would agree, we could

Page 4608

1 continue and then have a break until after 11.00, if there would be more,

2 we perhaps better have the break now.

3 MR. IERACE: I think we had better have it now, Mr. President. I

4 have quite a few to go.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed under the guidance of our

9 new registrar.

10 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President, and might I quickly update the

11 Trial Chamber in relation to the two issues which arose this morning.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin has kindly given me his copy of the

14 blank photographs. We're making some inquiries about that and we are

15 considering the feasibility of having Mr. Zecevic called at a later date

16 so as to comply with the old Rule. I will provide the Trial Chamber and

17 my learned colleagues with some further information on that tomorrow

18 morning, if that's convenient.



21 Q. Mr. Kucanin, we finished number 2 of the sniping sites, which was

22 Osmice. Would you now identify, if there be one, the third site as you

23 move clockwise around the map.

24 A. The Vraca region, the Vraca settlement, and also the part right

25 above the Grbavica neighbourhood, which I'm indicating now, just before

Page 4609

1 that area, there is the Jewish cemetery from where sniper fire was opened

2 on the centre of Sarajevo.

3 Q. Would you please mark that with the number 3 and inform us as to

4 the source of information for the relevant period.

5 A. Both my investigations and my colleagues' investigations. [Marks]

6 Q. Please continue.

7 A. So from the Jewish cemetery towards Vraca, there's the settlement

8 of Gornji Kovacici, though I cannot see the letters here on the map.

9 But it is here, more or less, here where I'm indicating, in the same area,

10 in this same square. I can see Kovacici; however, there's also Gornji

11 Kovacici, where Serb army positions were.

12 Q. Please mark that with the number 4.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. What was the source of information in the relevant period for the

15 identification of number 4?

16 A. I was assistant investigator, and my colleagues did it.

17 Other locations include a whole range of places: Vraca, the area

18 of Vraca, which I could mark with number 5; up to the police school, the

19 area that I'm indicating now, all situated in Grbavica neighbourhood.

20 Q. Please do.

21 A. [Marks]. Both me and my colleagues conducted onsite

22 investigations in this area.

23 Q. Could you identify with a cross the position of the police

24 school.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 4610

1 Q. Thank you. Please continue.

2 A. The area leading from the Vrbanja bridge, which was on the other

3 side of the Miljacka River, the one which was under Serb forces control,

4 up to the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo bridge, that is, from here to there, this is

5 the Grbavica neighbourhood, where there were a number of sniper positions

6 which were active, and they were endangering this other area which was

7 under the BH government control, which included several very important

8 locations and facilities.

9 There was a number of important buildings here: The Metalka

10 company, for example, the skyscraper in Lenjinova Street, skyscrapers,

11 and also a commercial centre here. That is the area, that is, these were

12 the skyscrapers from which there was constant sniper fire.

13 Q. How much of your -- I withdraw that. Approximately what

14 percentage of your investigations were taken up with sniping from that

15 area, that general area that you've just discussed?

16 A. I myself worked on at least three such cases where trams were hit

17 by sniper fire coming from these positions. I was assistant investigator

18 on at least five onsite investigations conducted in this area here, which

19 included killing of a French soldier and a number of incidents where

20 French soldiers were wounded.

21 Q. Do you mean by that French soldiers who were working for the

22 United Nations at the time that they were killed?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. And were they killed by sniper fire or shelling or a combination?

25 A. I wouldn't like to have this incident becoming part of the record,

Page 4611

1 because it's outside the time framework. However, I have to say that

2 soldiers were very frequently targeted in Sarajevo.

3 Q. When you say "soldiers were very frequently targeted," do you mean

4 soldiers working under the banner of the United Nations?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, would you please go back to the cross --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

9 witness has just stated that one of these incidents didn't happen within

10 the relevant times. Could we be sure and certain -- could we make sure

11 that all these incidents correspond to the relevant times, the incidents

12 involving tram.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, --

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness gave that evidence

15 yesterday, but I'm more than happy to confirm it now.

16 Q. Mr. Kucanin, you've referred to you investigating three incidents

17 involving trams being hit by sniper fire coming from the positions you

18 have just identified. Did all of those three incidents take place in the

19 relevant period or not?

20 A. I worked on at least three such cases. I participated in the

21 onsite investigations which took place in that period of time, but I also

22 worked on other incidents outside this time framework.

23 Q. All right. You made a point of telling us that the incident

24 involving the French soldiers occurred outside the relevant time period.

25 Would you continue to do that, please. In other words, confine yourself

Page 4612

1 to incidents which occurred in the relevant time period, and if it becomes

2 necessary to refer to incidents outside that period, please inform us of

3 that fact.

4 All right. Now, going back to the cross that you've placed on the

5 map to indicate the police school, would you place a 1 alongside that

6 cross.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. You referred to a number of other sniping sites on the Bosnian

9 Serb army side of the confrontation line. You referred in particular to

10 the building Metalka. Would you locate that on the map, please, and

11 place a cross in that place with the number 2 alongside it.

12 A. [Marks].

13 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

14 Q. You also referred to skyscrapers in Lenjinova Street. How many

15 skyscrapers were there in that street from where sniper fire originated?

16 A. There are four skyscrapers in Lenjinova Street which were affected

17 by military activities. They are not accurately represented here.

18 They're square in shape, and they are here, at the spot that I'm

19 indicating right now, between the Miljacka River and Lenjinova Street.

20 Q. Were the skyscrapers of uniform height?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many storeys, approximately?

23 A. Fifteen, approximately.

24 Q. Were they in a line or some other geometrical pattern, that is,

25 the four buildings?

Page 4613

1 A. More or less in a line along the street.

2 Q. All right. Would you please indicate their approximate

3 approximate position on the map by drawing a line and then placing the

4 number 3 alongside the line.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. So as to avoid confusion, would you place a circle around the

7 number 3.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Were there any other buildings which were identified as a source

10 of sniper fire in the relevant period as a result of your investigations

11 or the investigations of other criminal inspectors or both?

12 A. There were three skyscrapers, referred to as shopping centre at

13 Grbavica. Each of them had about 20 floors. They were very often used as

14 firing positions. Targeted the centre of the town and Titova Street, and

15 for a very long time, civilians were getting killed on this spot that I'm

16 indicating right now. Although before there were some barricades had been

17 set up in this part, as some kind of protection against fire coming from

18 Trebevic, Gornji Kovacici, and some other areas. But it is from these

19 skyscrapers that fire was opened, and civilians were targeted here.

20 Later on, UNPROFOR placed a number of APCs and barricades on the

21 spot. The approximate location of the skyscrapers would be here. I did

22 not personally take part in any such investigation as a leader; however, I

23 assisted my colleague when the person by the name of Jugoslav Komarica

24 was killed. Somehow I remember his name.

25 Q. Was that during the relevant period?

Page 4614

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Were the three skyscrapers in a row or in a different formation?

3 A. Not exactly in a row. I cannot recall at this moment. They were

4 on a square, or maybe a triangle. They formed a triangle, more or less.

5 Q. Would you place a triangle in the approximate position of the

6 skyscrapers, and within the triangle, could you place the number 4.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, you said that there was a particular site in the city where

9 civilians were killed and where the fire was established as coming from

10 those three skyscrapers. You said that a barricade had been placed on

11 that site to offer protection, and I think you said that the position of

12 the barricade, in fact, did not offer protection from the three

13 skyscrapers. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. All right. Would you please mark the position in the city where

16 the civilians were killed from fire coming from site -- the site of the

17 three skyscrapers. If you could mark it with a cross, please, and the

18 number 5 alongside it.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now, what was the direction of fire that the barricade initially

21 was intended to protect civilians from?

22 A. From the fire opened from these skyscrapers; is that what you

23 mean?

24 Q. I think you said that initially the barricade was positioned to

25 provide protection from a different direction, and it was discovered that

Page 4615

1 it wasn't --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- protection from the three skyscrapers. So what was that first

4 direction?

5 A. From the area of Osmice and the Jewish cemetery, also from Gornji

6 Kovacici. It is from these positions that the -- this road here was

7 endangered. Trscanska Street and the civilians who walked along the

8 street and also the street near the building of the supreme court and this

9 other building. The barricade was set up in this way, in the way I'm

10 indicating right now, in order to afford protection from sniper fire.

11 Q. Was the barrier on a particular intersection of Marsal Tito

12 Street?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall the name of the cross-street on that intersection?

15 A. The street above was called at the time Djure Djakovica Street,

16 and it led towards Skenderija.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just for the sake of the record, I think

18 it's important that it is clear that the witness pointed as the previous

19 lines of fire from those places indicated on the map by markings numbered

20 2, and later 3 and 4, in the direction of the cross with an adjacent 5 to

21 it.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Now, was there a particular part of the city that was more prone

24 to sniper fire than other parts in this general area?

25 A. Yes. In this area here, there was a part. It was called

Page 4616

1 Trscanska Street and we called it Trscanska, or the "running street,"

2 because it was impossible to cross the street. So that's why we called it

3 runners' street. The area was dangerous all the way up to the

4 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo bridge. It was constantly exposed to sniper fire, and

5 I think that dozens of civilians were victims of this fire. I assisted my

6 colleague, Ilija Rosic, when a cyclist was killed in this incident from

7 this Chanska Street up to the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo bridge. You see these

8 letters here Novo Sarajevo, that's where the barracks of the former JNA

9 was located, and it was one of the main streets leading to the lower part

10 of the town.

11 Q. Would you please use the marker pen to outline that part of the

12 city which received that more intensive fire.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now, do you recognise on the map the three locations of the tram

15 incidents that you personally investigated during the relevant period?

16 A. Yes. One such incident occurred near this junction here. All of

17 them occurred within a ten-metre diameter. One of them happened near the

18 crossroads just below Trscanska Street. One occurred near the

19 technical school, here, more or less; and one took place in the area of

20 Pofalici, right before the bridge.

21 Q. Would you please mark those three positions with a cross and

22 alongside the crosses place the numbers 6, 7, and 8.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Now, you also said in your earlier explanation about the three

25 shopping centre skyscrapers that UNPROFOR placed some barricades in

Page 4617

1 position to offer protection from that source of fire. Could you point to

2 the place where UNPROFOR placed the barricade.

3 A. Here, right across the street.

4 Q. All right. So do I take it, therefore, that UNPROFOR placed a

5 further barricade at position number 5 to offer protection from the three

6 skyscrapers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you continue to make your way around the map and identify

9 any other positions that may have been identified in the relevant period

10 by yourself or your fellow investigators. Sorry. Just before you do

11 that, would you go back to the intersection marked 5, and if that could be

12 shown on the ELMO. I'd like to ensure that we have a circle around that

13 number 5. Would you place a circle around the number 5 on the

14 intersection, so as to avoid any confusion at a later date.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. And now continue to point out the relevant positions.

17 A. If I may just add in connection with the location number 5: An

18 investigating magistrate who conducted investigations lived here in the

19 vicinity, and we discovered this location, that is, this firing position

20 on the skyscraper, once when we came to fetch the investigating

21 magistrate. We left the car here, we entered the building to pick up the

22 judge, and when we came back, on the passenger's seat, we realised that

23 there was a hole which was made by a sniper bullet. And as we went out,

24 we realised that one part of the skyscraper was actually covering this

25 area here, so we started paying more attention to the skyscraper, and then

Page 4618

1 we invited UNPROFOR --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we ask

4 the witness the exact date of this particular incident? I should like to

5 know whether we are still within the relevant time.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it needn't be entered in the

7 record. I just wanted to tell you the way we discovered this location.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not the

9 first time that this witness is mentioning an incident which falls outside

10 the scope of the relevant times. I don't want to have to be on my feet

11 every time that the witness is mentioning an incident without giving us

12 the specific time reference.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just take you back to a

14 decision I gave in the beginning of this day. One moment, please, so that

15 I can quote myself without any mistake.

16 The Chamber has expressed that it would prefer the marking on the

17 map to be done in this courtroom in order to avoid any confusion as far as

18 the relevance is concerned. That's what you will read on page 7. It

19 seems that you misunderstand the decision of the Chamber, since the

20 Chamber has not indicated that incidents which are not within the time

21 limits of the indictment are, as such, irrelevant. They might be. We

22 wanted to keep a tight control over any relevance question. From your

23 observation, I do understand that you expect both the Prosecution and the

24 witness not to refer, in whatever way, to whatever happened after August

25 1994 or before September 1992. As we have discussed during this trial at

Page 4619

1 many occasions events that happened before especially September 1992, it

2 might be clear to you that events may have relevance.

3 So whenever the Prosecution would ask questions about the period

4 after August 1994 or before September 1992, the Defence, of course, can

5 raise an objection and ask what the relevance would be. But the mere fact

6 that an incident took place after August 1994 or before September 1992

7 doesn't make the testimony in this respect irrelevant, but there would be

8 perhaps a reason to ask ourselves what the relevance would be. So I think

9 there's no reason to complain that you have to get on your feet now and

10 then. If you want to raise the issue of relevance for any incident

11 outside the period I just mentioned, then of course you may do so, and

12 then we'll ask the Prosecution, if it's not clear of itself, what the

13 relevance might have been. Otherwise the Prosecution will have to explain

14 what the relevance of its question is, so just to avoid whatever

15 misunderstanding. But I do understand that you make an objection as far

16 as the answer of the witness is concerned relating to a moment which might

17 be beyond the time scope of the indictment.

18 Let me just confer with my colleagues, but first give Mr. Ierace

19 the opportunity to respond to the objection.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the explanation provided by the

21 witness was volunteered; it wasn't in response to a question I asked. But

22 it is still relevant because it explains the method by which sources of

23 sniping fire were established, and therefore it does not matter whether

24 this particular incident occurred within the indictment period or not,

25 provided the technique was used during the indictment period. Thank you.

Page 4620

1 [Trial Chamber confers]


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I? Thank

4 you. Merely to clarify. What the Defence wishes here, that Mr. Galic is

5 here reproached with participating in a campaign based on a number of

6 elements, and what we want is that in the transcript no possible confusion

7 can be made, that whenever a witness speaks about an element outside the

8 period, that it be registered then to say it was outside this particular

9 time frame, and then we shall have nothing against it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that that's exactly

11 what the witness, did, but let me just check. Let me just check,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I do agree with you, it was upon your question that

13 the witness said it was outside the time limit, so you are perfectly right

14 in making this remark.

15 Mr. Kucanin, whenever you refer to what you experienced, and if

16 it's outside the period of August -- September 1992 and August 1994, as

17 you indicated upon the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your experience with

18 fetching the magistrate, would you please also indicate whether it's

19 outside the scope or within the time scope of September 1992, August

20 1994. Yes? Would you please ... this would assist us in knowing exactly

21 when it happened.

22 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

23 No. I still have to give a decision on the objection, although

24 the last remark of Mr. Piletta-Zanin was not in support specifically of

25 the objection any more. If Mr. Piletta-Zanin would not have asked our

Page 4621

1 specific attention to the time frame, we would have said it to the witness

2 as well. The answer the witness gave, not on a specific question, but

3 explaining part of knowledge, has some relevance, both the relevance

4 indicated by Mr. Ierace, that it might show how, what methods were used,

5 and also, and I add that, that also outside specific investigations you

6 could collect some information about the type of incidents he investigated

7 at other times.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


10 Q. Mr. Kucanin, in relating that incident so far, you have told us

11 that after you returned to the car, you discovered a hole made by a sniper

12 bullet on the passenger's seat, and as a result of that, you realised that

13 one part of the skyscraper was able to cover that area. You also said

14 that as a result of your observations, you started paying more attention

15 to the skyscraper, and then you invited UNPROFOR to do something. What

16 did you invite UNPROFOR to do?

17 A. Well, first we told them that there was a sniper nest on one of

18 the skyscrapers and that it was a threat to civilians, so whether they

19 could do something to remove it. However, the UNPROFOR could not do it,

20 but they instead brought some APCs, and I mean, to begin with, they

21 brought the APCs, they put them across the street, at an angle, enabling

22 the civilians to move there, and later on some containers were placed

23 there to protect -- to shield the citizens from this particular sniper

24 nest.

25 Q. When was it that you went to pick up the investigating magistrate

Page 4622

1 and discovered the hole on the passenger's seat of the car?

2 A. It was in 1993. I'm quite sure about that.

3 Q. And how long after that incident was it that UNPROFOR placed the

4 APCs across the street and later some containers at, I take it, position

5 number 5 with the cross?

6 A. Well, a lot of time elapsed. I'd say not less than six months.

7 That is, from the time when our windshield was broken by that bullet.

8 These vehicles were placed there in daytime, that is, at the time of the

9 most intensive traffic, so they had to be removed. And about a year

10 passed by before some lasting shield was set up. And the citizens tried

11 to somehow make do by themselves, so they would hang some blankets or

12 sheets on a clothesline, or some wire, so as to protect them. So it took

13 a year, about a year, to put the containers there to shield the civilians.

14 Q. Was this the only occasion that UNPROFOR was informed of a source

15 of sniping fire against civilians and then action was taken by UNPROFOR in

16 response to that information, or were there other times as well?

17 A. There were other times as well.

18 Q. How many other times were there during the relevant period of

19 time?

20 A. Well, I'd say not less than 30.

21 Q. All right. Please continue to move around the map and identify

22 any other sniping sources of fire there may be as a result of your

23 investigations and those of your fellow criminal inspectors in the

24 relevant period.

25 A. Yes, sure. Here is Ozrenska Street. Now, about this, I heard it

Page 4623












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 4623 to 4629













Page 4630

1 from my colleagues who did investigations there. I did not participate in

2 them.

3 Q. All right. Can you please draw a line with the marker pen

4 parallel to Ozrenska Street so that we can identify the street from the

5 map.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Would you place number 6 alongside that line.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. Keep going, please, if you will.

10 A. Here is Zagorska Street. Yesterday we talked about one of the

11 incidents when a boy was killed who used to live on Zagorska Street.

12 Q. Please place a blue line alongside that street and a number 7 at

13 the top of the line.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Please keep going.

16 A. Here is Milinkladska Street, but I learned about that from my

17 colleagues who did investigations there.

18 Q. Again, place a line parallel to the street, with the number 8.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the benefit of the record, those

21 last three markings were at J7.

22 Q. Please continue, Mr. Kucanin.

23 A. And I'd like to add that Ozrenska goes -- stretches all this way

24 here and ends up here. So these are all the localities which are below

25 Hrasno, Cengic Vila, Dolac Malta.

Page 4631

1 Q. In that case, please place a line along number 6 for the relevant

2 Ozrenska Street.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Please continue.

5 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. Kucanin. Before we leave those

6 three streets, are you able to tell us which streets received fire from

7 those three streets, that's Ozrenska, Zagorska, and Milinkladska.

8 A. Milinkladska.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. This street, Vojvoda something, this high street. I forget what

11 it was called then. Now it's called Zamario [phoen]. Then Dzemala

12 Bijedica. And these transfer streets, Ivana Krndelja. I knew it's name,

13 on the other side, I mean it's called something else on the other side.

14 Then Miljenka Cvitkovic Street. We talked about that incident yesterday.

15 I just can't find it on the map now.

16 Q. All right. Would you please mark those streets which received

17 fire from those three sources by blue lines, and then circle those

18 streets, if you will.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you for that. Would you place a capital Z inside that

21 circle.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you. And now please continue to locate other positions on

24 the map, moving in a clockwise direction, which were identified from

25 police investigations in the relevant period.

Page 4632

1 A. On the basis of my colleagues' reports, those who worked in Novi

2 Grad, in the locality of Dobrinja, that is, from Dobrinja I. In that

3 part, there was a street called -- now, I forget its name right now. Oh,

4 yes. Miroslava Krleze. And a sniper fire was non-stop opened against

5 the rest of Dobrinja, especially against the central part. That street,

6 to my mind, could be here.

7 Q. Please draw a line parallel to the street.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And place a number 9 alongside it.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Please continue.

12 A. From the locality of Nedzarici, sniper fire was targeted at these

13 three vertical streets, and the horizontal one, which linked the locality

14 of Dobrinja with the rest of the city.

15 Q. Could you indicate those streets again, please.

16 A. It's the Olimpijska Street. This one I believe was called

17 Prvomajska, and the next one, I don't know what it was called. And this

18 one which was the worst one, as I could experience myself when I went to

19 perform my duties there. It was really a hazard to go down this street,

20 because it was constantly exposed to firearms, and that was non-stop.

21 Q. What was the name of that street?

22 A. This part here, it is called Lukavicka Cesta, and this one, yes,

23 it was Ante Babica. Yes, that's what it was called.

24 Q. And which part received sniper fire from Nedzarici?

25 A. Well, just as these three streets are, but those vertical. So

Page 4633

1 from the first street Prvomajska to the point where you enter the locality

2 of Dobrinja. So it's from here to here. That was the most exposed area.

3 Q. Would you please place a circle around the four streets that you

4 have marked, and within the circle place capital letter Y.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you. Please -- now, you've told us that you knew about Ante

7 Babica Street from your own experience. What about the other three

8 streets? Was that from your investigations or those of your fellow

9 inspectors, or both?

10 A. I assisted at an investigation here at the top of Provomajska

11 Street, and as for the others, I told you that my brother lived here.

12 And it was on the basis of what my colleagues said I mentioned those other

13 two, and the third one, because the incidents there were quite high. I

14 mean, they were frequent incidents.

15 Q. Please continue. I'm sorry. Just before you leave that, would

16 you place the number 10, I think it is, alongside, indicating Nedzarici.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. Yes, please continue.

19 A. I didn't do any investigation here, so it was on the basis of my

20 colleagues' investigations from the Rajlovac barracks, and it was

21 controlled by the army of Bosnian Serbs. So sniper fire was opened on the

22 localities here and it's road. Now, that particular locality is called

23 Sokolje, and it's here. You can read it here.

24 Q. Would you place the number 11 alongside the barracks, the position

25 of the barracks.

Page 4634

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And would you mark the relevant streets which received fire,

3 sniping fire, from that source.

4 A. This is a part of this locality of Sokolje. It is a very, very

5 densely populated area.

6 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of those streets that received

7 fire from the barracks?

8 A. No. I don't know what they were called. All I know is that that

9 particular locality is called Sokolje.

10 Q. Please continue.

11 A. You want me to mark this?

12 Q. Yes. Would you please mark that with capital letter X inside the

13 circle.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. On the basis of my own experience, and yesterday we also talked

17 about the Elma Jakupovic's murder, a little girl, and the sniper fire came

18 from a place called Kromolj.

19 Q. Would you please mark Kromolj with the number -- I think it's 12.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And would you place -- first of all, could you tell us the names

22 of the areas that were targeted from sniping source number 12, Kromolj.

23 A. Hasana Brkica Street, and then the neighbourhood and the whole

24 area of the sports -- the Kosevo sports stadium, Zetra sports hall, and

25 then Djura Djakovica Street. That's it's old name. It's goes from

Page 4635

1 [indiscernible] to Kobilja Glava, and the cemetery, the city cemetery, so

2 the funerals couldn't take place because of snipers. So there was a

3 rather wide area here which was exposed to sniper fair fire, or rather to

4 firearms.

5 Q. You mentioned the area of Kobilja Glava. Was that area, and

6 indeed all of the areas you just mentioned, subjected to sniper fire from

7 area 12 in the relevant period?

8 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Could you please draw an outline of those areas that

10 you have just mentioned that received fire from position 12.

11 A. It will be quite a large area. [Marks]

12 Q. Please place the capital letter W inside the circle.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kucanin.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

17 Ms. Pilipovic, may I assume that since you're standing, that

18 you'll start the cross-examination of Mr. Kucanin?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Your

20 Honour.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. My colleague will start the

23 cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

Page 4636

1 floor, Mr. President.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

3 Q. Good morning, Witness. Is it correct that you gave a number of

4 statements, in particular, on the 10th, and the 11th, and most probably

5 the 12th of November, 1995?

6 A. I'm sorry. I did not receive interpretation. Yes.

7 Q. Have you now received interpretation? It seems that you have.

8 Very well.

9 Witness, in this statement --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should

11 perhaps show the statement to the witness, in accordance with our

12 practice, so that the witness could confirm his signature. I will show

13 him only the first page, because other pages have been annotated by

14 myself. The number, for the transcript, is the ERN number 00360864.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please give the

17 document back to the usher so that I can have it back myself?

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, so we can therefore agree that you gave this particular

21 statement, that you signed it. Now I should like to know whether it is

22 correct that you stated that you were able to remember a certain number of

23 incidents. Thanks to the fact that you have preserved all of the notes

24 that you have made following these investigations, and that as a

25 consequence you were able to provide the details of the incidents in

Page 4637

1 question.

2 A. Well, it was possible for me to remember some of the events. The

3 interview took place in 1995, so not long after the incidents. And some

4 of the information I provided on the basis of my notes, which I made

5 throughout the war while conducting my investigations.

6 Q. Yes, but my question was as follows: Is it correct that in

7 respect of each incident you had notes, and that you have kept these

8 notes; yes or no?

9 A. At the time, yes, I did.

10 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you spoke about these notes, or this

11 notebook. I should like to know, technically speaking, what form they

12 are.

13 A. Those were the agendas, where I described my duties as a police

14 inspector on a daily basis. I would record the date of the incident and

15 all other relevant steps that I took in connection with my work.

16 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Are you still in possession

17 of this notebook?

18 A. I believe I am. I'm not sure whether I have them all. It was,

19 after all, eight or ten years ago. But I think I have kept most of them.

20 Q. Witness, you haven't brought these notebooks or this notebook with

21 you here in The Hague?

22 A. No.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers be asked to pause between

24 question and answer.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 4638

1 Q. Witness, you testified some time ago about an incident, including

2 a car which you took to the apartment where an investigating magistrate

3 lived; is that correct?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the English translator asked that the

5 two speakers pause between question and answer.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Since I was listening to the French channel, I

7 couldn't hear it.

8 Mr. Kucanin, could you please make a pause between the question

9 put to you and the answer you give, since the interpreters have to

10 translate everything you say and since Mr. Piletta-Zanin is able to follow

11 the original language, it might go too quick. May I also ask

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to do the same.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for this assistance.

16 Q. Witness, we were speaking about this notebook. Could you confirm

17 for me whether it still exists or no? Did you say yes? Is it correct

18 that it still exists?

19 A. No. I wasn't sure. I said that most of the agendas are probably

20 still in existence.

21 Q. Let me rephrase my question. When I mentioned a moment ago the

22 problems concerning the incident involving the investigating magistrate,

23 you declared that it was not necessary that this incident be made part of

24 the record. May I ask you why, in your opinion, this was not necessary?

25 A. Well, because I didn't conduct any official investigation on that

Page 4639

1 occasion. I simply wanted to tell you a story and to describe you how we

2 were able to establish the firing position on this occasion, in this

3 particular area.

4 Q. Witness, how can you be sure that this incident took place in

5 1993?

6 A. Well, I think I can, simply -- because I know when approximately

7 the location was discovered as a sniper fire position.

8 Q. In what part of the year was that?

9 A. I remember that it was not wintertime. We were lightly dressed.

10 We left the vehicle until nightfall there, and it was only after that we

11 were able to pull it out.

12 Q. Who was with you on that occasion? Were any colleagues with you?

13 A. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Could you give us the names of these individuals, if you

15 remember. If you don't, just say so, please.

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. What was the name of the judge that you were going to fetch?

18 A. Zdenko Eterovic.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, you've mentioned a vehicle in respect of this

20 incident. What kind of vehicle was it?

21 A. It was a police car, a police car, a Golf, which was painted blue

22 and white.

23 Q. So it was a Golf. Does it mean that the police at that time had

24 Golfs as their vehicles? Is it correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 4640

1 Q. Witness, I'm sorry I have to ask this question. What was the gas

2 station that the police normally used for refilling at that time?

3 A. I never went to any gas station to refill the fuel during the war

4 in Sarajevo.

5 Q. And why?

6 A. Well, they were not operational. There was no fuel.

7 Q. Witness, you are telling us that it was not possible to obtain,

8 normally, fuel in the town of Sarajevo at that time?

9 A. I am referring to police cars and the way they obtained fuel.

10 Q. I understand that. However, you just told us that there was no

11 longer any gas station in the town of Sarajevo.

12 A. There were gas stations. Whether they were working or whether

13 civilians were able to obtain fuel on such stations, I don't know. I

14 never went to any gas station during the war to refill.

15 Q. Could you please confirm this for us, sir: Did you remain in

16 Sarajevo throughout the war, that is, throughout the relevant period, from

17 the beginning of the war up until August 1994?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, the UNPROFOR personnel, did they have

20 to -- did they need fuel for their vehicles, such as ambulances and

21 official vehicles?

22 A. No, I'm not familiar with that fact.

23 Q. You, as a police officer, were able to use an official vehicle; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes. My vehicle was a civilian one. It was also a Golf, which we

Page 4641

1 referred to as Dvica, and it was painted red. It was a special type of

2 Golf.

3 Q. Witness, this vehicle, did you normally drive it, this official

4 vehicle?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Were you the driver?

7 A. Yes. That was an official vehicle which I drove whenever I was on

8 duty, whenever I went out on the scene. The same case applied to others.

9 I did not use this vehicle personally; it was at the disposal of my

10 colleagues as well.

11 Q. I understand. However, throughout those three years of time, you

12 never went to any gas station to refill this vehicle?

13 A. Yes, I did. I refilled it daily.

14 Q. Very well. Where did you do that?

15 A. Well, for each and every visit of the scene, I received a

16 Coca-Cola bottle of fuel. But it was not always fuel. Sometimes it was

17 oil for regular heaters, like fuel oil.

18 Q. Thank you very much for your answer, Witness. Why didn't you buy

19 fuel at a petrol station?

20 A. Buy fuel? Are you forgetting that there was a war going on in

21 Sarajevo? I just didn't have a penny in my pocket.

22 Q. Yes, but maybe it was possible for you to obtain some kind of

23 cards or rations that you could have used directly at the petrol station,

24 and I am referring to the institution, to the service whose employee you

25 were. Did they give you any such thing?

Page 4642

1 A. As I told you, I received from my institution, from my work

2 institution, a bottle, a litre and a half bottle of fuel. If the

3 destination was far away, I got a bigger bottle. There were very severe

4 restrictions, and Sarajevo, generally speaking, did not have fuel. But

5 the police had some.

6 Q. Thank you. You will told us that you didn't have money to buy

7 fuel. I think that unfortunately that was the case for many persons. Am

8 I correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you very much for this precision. I should now like to go

11 back to some other incidents that you had experience of. In particular, I

12 am interested in the incident which happened at the restaurant or in the

13 vicinity of the restaurant whose name escapes me at the moment. Maybe

14 Atina. That was the name of the restaurant, please?

15 A. I don't know what it was called then exactly. It seems to be that

16 it was called Adrijana.

17 Q. You're quite correct. The name of the restaurant was Adrijana.

18 Sorry, I forgot the name. Let us focus now on this particular incident.

19 I think you can remember the incident very well. You testified that you

20 were there at the scene and that you were the most experienced police

21 officer at the scene on that occasion; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. You also told us that you

24 had investigated the scene where the incident had taken place; is that

25 correct?

Page 4643

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness, I think that I can conclude from your previous statements

3 that, as an experienced policeman, you issued immediate instructions to

4 local police officers, if there was any on the location, in order to

5 protect the scene of the incident, to seal the scene and to protect the

6 traces of the incident; is that correct?

7 A. When visiting the scene, the area -- I mean, the traces were

8 preserved, but I don't remember whether the area was secured by the local

9 police.

10 Q. Thank you. But I was speaking of a general rule, general

11 regulation. Normally, you said that you had also photographers who worked

12 as members of your team; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, these teams of photographers, is it correct

15 that they participated in all such operations that you were called upon to

16 perform?

17 A. You said teams of photographers. Those were actually teams of

18 so-called technicians, each of whom had a special duty during the

19 investigation. Some were ballistics experts, for example, some were in

20 charge of making a diagram of the scene and make photos of the scene.

21 Those measures would be taken right away at the onsite investigation,

22 whereas my duty as a lead of the onsite investigation, was to make sure

23 that all the information relating to the incident is gathered, including

24 the names of eyewitnesses, victims, if any, casualties, the wounded, the

25 fatalities, and to describe, generally speaking, the measures taken as

Page 4644

1 part of the investigation.

2 Q. You spoke about members of the team who performed several duties,

3 but is it true that, first of all, you would take photographs of what had

4 happened and then later on you would conduct the investigation? Was it

5 the other way around? Did you first examine the scene and then take

6 photographs? That was my question.

7 A. First of all, one would examine the scene of the incident in order

8 to establish -- to find the traces of the incident. Once the traces are

9 established, they are clearly marked with arrows or numbers. Afterwards,

10 these traces are photographed, and that was the duty of the crime

11 technician. Throughout that time, I'm doing my job. I'm conducting the

12 investigation, waiting for them to finish their job. So each of us had

13 their specific duty which was part of the investigation.

14 Q. Am I correct in thinking that, chronologically speaking, before

15 you touched anything on the scene, before you removed the traces on the

16 scene, you would always take photographs so that that can be part of your

17 file? Or was it the other way around? Would you take a bullet, examine

18 it, and then put it back in situ and take photographs of it? Could you

19 explain this to us, please.

20 A. This is never done the way you've just described it anywhere in

21 the world, no.

22 Q. I mentioned two possibilities. The first one, first you take

23 photographs and then you make an investigation, and the other one the

24 other way around: First you do the investigation, you examine the scene,

25 and then you take the photographs. Which is the wrong one?

Page 4645

1 A. As I told you, the crime -- I'm a crime technician and I know that

2 traces on the scene of the incident cannot be removed or tampered with, in

3 any way, before photographs are taken. That is what my colleagues do.

4 Simultaneously, I conducted the investigation, trying to obtain

5 information as to who the victims were, who the eyewitnesses were, and so

6 on and so forth.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. So first of all you take photographs, and

8 then you proceed with the investigation; am I correct in understanding

9 your testimony?

10 A. The investigation starts from the moment --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin [Previous translation continues]...

12 Question several times, but it seems that you'd like to have either

13 another answer or some other clarification which is not clear to me at

14 all. So would you please put such a question that makes clear what you

15 want the witness to tell you exactly, apart from that it's your usual

16 answer is that --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do so,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... What you'd like

20 to hear from the witness or otherwise proceed to another subject.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. I will

22 be even clearer.

23 Q. On page 60, line 20, you told us that one cannot touch

24 the traces on the scene of the incident before photographs are taken.

25 That's what you said on page 60, at line 20, approximately; yes or no.

Page 4646

1 A. I'm sorry. I don't see this in the transcript. All I can tell

2 you is -- I mean, I can only repeat what I said a moment ago.

3 Q. Can you read English, Witness?

4 A. No, I cannot.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think if you include in the

6 witness [sic] a reference to the transcript, the witness might be

7 confused, because I don't see him look at the transcript. So I assume

8 that he'll not follow it. And it's confusing for him if you refer to a

9 transcript he doesn't know about. But apart from that, let me just make

10 it clear.

11 Mr. Kucanin, you testified that before taking photographs of the

12 scene of the crime, including such objects as bullets, they should not be

13 touched prior to taking photographs; is that true?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, yesterday you were able to analyse a number of

18 photographs given to you by the Prosecution in connection with Adrijana

19 cafe. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness, at this point I should like to show you photographs

22 number 00284 and 266.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show

24 the photographs to the witness, and I should like the witness to confirm

25 whether --

Page 4647

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

2 THE REGISTRAR: From Exhibit P2792?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's it, Madam Registrar.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we have the same

5 photograph.

6 Q. Would you go back to the previous one, please. Yes, that's the

7 one. Witness, could you please confirm whether that was the case.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And perhaps we can put the

9 photograph on the ELMO.

10 Q. Can you confirm, Witness, that this is the awning, the canvas

11 awning of the restaurant concerning this particular incident?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, can we now have the

15 photograph which is on -- which is two pages later in the document. The

16 photograph depicts the impact of the bullet. Yes, that's the one. Can we

17 please -- no, the other one, please, the one after that one. Yes, that's

18 the one I need.

19 Q. Witness, we have a photograph here, 00284270, for the record. Is

20 this the window that was hit by the bullet?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, would you please indicate on the photograph where the

23 canvas awning was.

24 A. You cannot see it on the photograph, because it was in front of

25 the cafe.

Page 4648

1 Q. Would you please go back to the previous photograph, then. You

2 told us that this was the sunshade or the awning through which the bullet

3 had passed before it hit the glass which is behind the awning. A moment

4 ago you saw the photograph depicting the impact of the bullet in the

5 glass, and in response to a question put to you by His Honour, Judge Orie,

6 that no traces were touched -- no traces of the incident were touched

7 before the investigation. I should like to go back to the previous

8 photograph, and I should like you to tell us where, in relation to the

9 bullet impact, was the sunshade.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we go back to the

11 previous photograph, please, number -- [In English] that one. The right

12 one. Okay.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you told us that traces were not

14 touched. Can we see here the beginning of the sunshade?

15 A. As far as I can see, you can only see the side of the awning,

16 which was not hidden by the bullet. That is, you can see the awning, but

17 from the side. As far as this photograph is concerned, the awning would

18 be in front of the cafe, that is, the part of the awning through which the

19 bullet had passed.

20 Q. Witness, in the upper part of the photograph, can you see a long

21 horizontal tube which was probably pulled up by a mechanism on the left

22 part of the photograph?

23 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 4649

1 Q. Witness --

2 JUDGE ORIE: We are close to half past 12.00. If there would be a

3 suitable moment for you to ... if you have one or two questions, then --

4 yes, please.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It would be a perfectly

6 suitable moment, Your Honour, because we can continue with the photograph

7 after the break.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you one question before the break? I

9 have with great interest followed your line of questioning. It's not

10 quite clear to me, but perhaps you could give me a short explanation. Is

11 it what you seek to establish that there is a contradiction between what

12 the witness said about not touching any material found at the place of the

13 scene before it would have been photographed, that no picture could have

14 been taken from the window when the -- how do you call it in English --

15 when the --

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: If the sunshield was -- the word "awning." I was not

18 that much aware of ... If the awning was still in place, or is there any

19 specific reason why you ask, or is it just to establish that the awning

20 had been --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm happy to

22 tell you that, but if I say it in the presence of the witness, who is

23 shaking his head, perhaps --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Go, but since I

25 heard a lot of questions which -- well, at the end of the specific part of

Page 4650

1 the testimony, well, did not seem of great relevance to me, for example,

2 whether other people would have pennies in their pocket as well compared

3 to Mr. Kucanin. Well, I still -- I'm not aware to be -- to see exactly

4 what -- if Mr. Kucanin says that he drove in a police Golf, the next

5 question was whether the police had a Golf. Well, of course, if there's

6 any reason to believe that there's anything wrong with his answer that the

7 police would just have Volkswagens and not Golfs, I would perfectly

8 understand your question. That's why I did not interfere. But if the

9 witness answered that the police had Golfs, well, that was it. There was

10 never any other answer. So it's still unclear to me whether you had in

11 mind that there were other vehicles, that there were no Golfs used by the

12 police. So I'm just -- during the break, perhaps, of 20 minutes, I invite

13 you to think of the relevance not only of the subject you are touching but

14 also the relevance of each individual question.

15 We'll adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you would like

19 to bring something to my attention. Please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Very

21 briefly. Simply, the Defence takes great care about the relevance of its

22 questioning, and I want to say, this witness stated -- I will say it

23 directly, because I think it is very important- that a certain tubing

24 system was used to establish where -- from where the direction came.

25 Now, if that tube was misplaced, then obviously all the measurements were

Page 4651

1 wrong, and we need to ask this question. As for the questions about the

2 petrol and the money, your Tribunal asked a question about a car, and we

3 established that it was Golf.

4 Now, what we want to know: Is it whether civilians could obtain

5 petrol freely in Sarajevo, and if civilians could not do that -- and

6 that's what I was asking the witness --- if they couldn't, then my

7 question is: Who could drive these vehicles? Could it be civilians, since

8 there was no petrol available to the civilians? And I think it is a

9 fundamental question with regard to the bullets, to the projectiles which

10 possibly hit -- which allegedly hit vehicles. So that is my question.

11 When you say we are asking irrelevant questions, it is quite possible that

12 the Defence may think -- may think, that this observation I will not say

13 that it is -- I should say that such a comment, such a remark, may shake

14 the Defence, may destabilise the Defence's position.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The last thing I would like to do is to destabilise

16 the Defence. I think it's not at this moment proper to start a debate on

17 the relevance of the few examples I gave. And let me just -- yes.

18 Perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, part of the problem is -- which I do not have

19 it with your lead counsel, as you may have noticed --, if you perhaps come

20 to your point a bit quicker. When I asked you what your line of

21 questioning was aiming at, I gave an example, which, as far as I could

22 imagine, might not be the aim you were seeking. I did that specifically

23 in order not to interfere with the line of questioning. But if you come

24 quicker to your point, and if you -- it's quite clear now and then that

25 the witness gave a clear answer on not touching any objects found at the

Page 4652

1 scene of the incident. It's really not necessary to ask him four times.

2 Although I do understand that it's quite important for you to establish

3 that this was his answer, but everyone heard it, and the second time he

4 confirmed that we heard it again, and the third time we heard it again.

5 So I think if you come quicker to your point, I'll be less

6 inclined to intervene, as you might have noticed, in comparison with your

7 -- the technique you use in cross-examining and your lead counsel. Of

8 course, I'm not saying who is the best, you'll understand. But is this --

9 may I assume that this response to your remarks and that we can continue

10 the cross-examination of Mr. Kucanin?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Mr. President.

12 Thank you very much. There is absolutely no problem. I merely wished

13 to -- wanted to clear up a point. That is all.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you then please bring in the

15 witness.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Kucanin. The cross-examination by Defence

17 counsel will now continue. You did not have your earphones on yet.

18 Cross-examination of the witness by Defence counsel will continue, but I

19 think first Mr. Ierace wants to bring something to the attention of the

20 Chamber.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I reserve just a minute or so at

22 the end of today's session?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4653

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Witness, thank you for coming back into the courtroom. I'd like

3 to go back to the photographs. They will be given you now. It is the

4 same photographs that we had a moment ago on the screen.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, can you please show the

6 first photograph, 266. Will you please place it on the ELMO. Very good.

7 Witness, we can see this garden cafe. Can you please show us, by

8 using the pointer, where -- from where exactly did the bullet strike, on

9 this photograph.

10 A. I can't do it on this photograph.

11 Q. Witness, will you generally point at the area which the bullet

12 struck, the area of the canvas which was struck by the bullet.

13 A. So I'm not claiming it with full certainty, but I think it was

14 this area here.

15 Q. Very well. Can we now blow this up. Could we now blow up this

16 area. And will you please try to focus it.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Might there be some recording for the transcript of

20 where the witness indicated.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please state for the transcript where

22 the witness pointed at, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very good.

24 Q. Witness, in relation to this entry point, you indicated that today

25 you are not quite positive where is it that the bullet struck exactly.

Page 4654

1 A. No. After all this time, and on this photograph, no, I'm not -- I

2 cannot be positive.

3 Q. Very well.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, can we show 269, which

5 is --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin has not done it. I'm content to do

8 it from the bar table.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the second answer of the witness was

10 that he couldn't do it with great precision. But if you, for the sake of

11 clarity of the transcript, of course, we could indicate where the earlier

12 pointing at was. I think it was at the right portion, the first right

13 portion, with some five half circles at the bottom of the awning.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have never seen so much

15 assistance, and I am delighted. Thank you very much.

16 Let us move on. Can we have photograph 4269, please, with the

17 help of the usher, of course. Very good.

18 Q. Now we see an arrow. Is it pointing at the entry point of the

19 bullet?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Thank you. Can we now move, slightly, the image while preserving

22 the blow-up, but moving slightly to the left. No, no, no. In the

23 other direction. Left. A little bit more. Yes. Thank you very much.

24 Thank you. Stop, please.

25 Now, Witness, do you see here, please, a seam in the canvas which,

Page 4655

1 in its lower part, falls down, a festoon I believe it is called, a festoon

2 which descends on the lower part of the screen. I believe your answer was

3 yes, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

5 Q. Thank you. Will you please give this back to me.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Will you, then, usher, please

7 take us back to the first photograph, 4266, and I want to ask the

8 technical booth to again blow up the festoons, in particular -- no, no,

9 no. The upper part, upper part. Here we see the table and chairs. Yes,

10 this is the festoon area. And will you now move it a little bit to the

11 left. There.

12 Q. Witness, can you see in this photograph -- can you find once again

13 in this photograph -- you have the original before you, and I'd like to

14 ask the technical booth -- there.

15 Witness, can you identify here the seam which we indicated a

16 moment ago which came down the centre of the festoon?

17 A. No, I can't. I think there are more of them here.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Which end up directly in the centre of a

19 festoon? I'm not quite sure. Could you make a backwards zoom now,

20 please. Can you please -- the technical booth, can you please help us

21 and make a backward zoom. I believe I need the Presidential

22 intervention. Oh, yes. Thank you. And now, in the booth, can you focus

23 on the area which is slightly above the neck of the person who appears in

24 this photograph on the left-hand side of the photograph?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please be zoomed in. That's what you asked.

Page 4656

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm kindly asking the

2 booth to do that. A little bit more, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit more.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very good. And now a little

5 bit to the left.

6 JUDGE ORIE: A bit to the left, please.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There. There. There we are.

8 More to the left.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Is it enough, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was waiting

11 for the camera to go to the place. And can we move a little bit more to

12 the left, please. Now a bit to the right. No. This was to the right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's difficult for the usher --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I do understand this. [Interpretation] Here we

15 are. Can we now zoom, blow up this particular area.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Do you want it more,

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know whether it is

19 technically possible, but if we look closely at the photograph that you

20 have before you, then we clearly have this seam, the area of the seam,

21 which goes down the axis of the entrance into the restaurant, and it is

22 where this seam is, and it comes down to the centre of the festoon. Now,

23 seemingly, it is where I'd like to focus, but if the technology that we

24 have does not allow us to do it, we shall do it some other way. Obviously

25 the technology does not allow us to focus on it, so I want to withdraw

Page 4657

1 this document.

2 And usher, will you please put once again 2670 on the screen.

3 Here we are.

4 Q. Now, for the transcript, we are talking about the photograph which

5 does not show at all the canvas or the sunshade or whatever it might be.

6 Now, Witness, on this photograph I see two, I would say two bullet

7 impacting sites; is that correct?

8 A. If I understood you right, you said two points of impact, did

9 you?

10 Q. If I understand you well, I did not hear the answer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked you whether it's right that

12 you see two impacts.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I see only one point of

14 impact.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Very well, Witness. Would you please point on the screen which

17 you have on your -- to the right, where is this point of impact that you

18 see here?

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Right. So for the screen, the witness points at -- rather, at

21 more or less a triangular point, which is in the second row and the second

22 line, in the square which is the second from above and second from the

23 left.

24 Would you agree that that is a relatively large hole?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4658

1 Q. Thank you. You said that you placed a system of tubes between two

2 points in order to establish the direction from which the bullet came.

3 Would you agree that it would be between the point -- the entry point on

4 the canvas and this point here?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. We see that there is no

7 canvas on this photograph, so it may seem difficult. But insofar as the

8 impact produced a relatively large hole, how did you -- what did you then

9 do to establish precisely the direction from which the bullet impacted the

10 glass?

11 A. On this photograph you do have the canvas except that it is dark.

12 If you --

13 Q. I understand what you mean.

14 A. Do you see here the robe which ties the canvas to the metal frame

15 and it is a permanent contraption, so -- and it is closer to the window

16 shop. I cannot agree with what you said. This canvas was tied here all

17 the time. So what did we do, then? We had --

18 Q. No, Witness. I'm talking only about the hole that we see here in

19 this photograph. Sorry to interrupt you. This is -- and you tell us that

20 this is a relatively large hole. You also said that at times you used a

21 very small tube so as to identify the origin of the bullet. And what I'm

22 asking you about is: When you have such a large hole, what do you do then

23 to regulate this tube, if you want to establish the direction? Because

24 the hole, the opening, is so large.

25 A. From the enclosed you can see that -- I'm an inspector. I'm not a

Page 4659

1 ballistics expert. I'm no expert at all in matters of ballistic. I am

2 repeating to you what I see technicians do. Yesterday I described a

3 contraption which we call the Vizir or Smeker, and which our experts used

4 to establish the direction. This tube had at the end something like an

5 antenna, like this thing that I have in my hand. They could extend it.

6 And in the middle there was a tube, and above it there was a small

7 periscope-like device. I understand what you are saying, that the hole

8 was large, but by centering this device in the middle of the hole and

9 then linking it with the other hole, one could establish the part of the

10 bullet exactly. I can tell you, on the basis of this glass, if you have

11 only one hole, and I can describe to you how one can establish the bullet

12 path on the basis of one hole. I can do it even though I say this is not

13 my job. I'm merely an inspector who conducts the investigation, and it

14 is up to others to do their job.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. I've understood that you are

16 not an expert, but can you tell us, please, what is vertically -- what is

17 at a distance one kilometre an arrow angle of about 10 degrees on a

18 vertical elevation?

19 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you what such an arrow means, but the

20 distance here in this particular case could have been about 200 metres as

21 the crow flies.

22 Q. Thank you for this answer. You told us that you were not an

23 expert, but nevertheless every time that such an incident happens, and

24 when you investigated, you tell us there was always a ballistic expert on

25 site, on the scene of the crime. Is that what you're telling us?

Page 4660

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Mr. President, I'd like to show this witness a document which came from

4 the Prosecution, which is ERN 00234308. We have a copy also for

5 interpreters. It is an exhibit which has -- premarked Exhibit P2790, and

6 in brackets it says [Previous translation continues]... Shall I repeat the

7 number? Because you did not hear me. 2790, and 2791.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, could you --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a sufficient number of

10 copies, and I should like to ask the usher to take them and distribute

11 them.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Copies for the

13 booth.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not yet, Mr. President, but

15 there will be very little translation for once, which will spare us some

16 problems, at least as far as I'm concerned.

17 Q. Witness, there is a document in front of you --

18 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, do you have in front of you a document 00234308? Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, is this a report that you prepared?

Page 4661

1 A. Yes. This is an official note made by myself.

2 Q. Very well. Did it concern an incident?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On this document, which will be tendered, can you tell us where we

5 can find the name of the ballistics expert?

6 A. On this official note that I made, no names need to be mentioned,

7 not necessarily. In this case, I was just an investigation assistant,

8 because I had received information that one person had been killed, and

9 that was the reason why I visited the scene. When I established that the

10 person in question was only wounded, the investigation was taken over by

11 my colleague from the relevant police station, in this case, the police

12 station of Novo Sarajevo, and he made the official report, which contains

13 all relevant information, including the names of persons who participated

14 in the investigation. In this official note, I only make mention, general

15 mention, of the incident that occurred.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. We will perhaps go back to this document

17 shortly. For the time being, I should like to address the issue of

18 circumstances of the incident, and I need some precision. What was the

19 child doing at the moment she [as interpreted] was hit?

20 A. According to what we knew at the time, from what the witnesses

21 told us, the child was either riding a bicycle or pushing a wheel near the

22 wall of a building there.

23 Q. In connection with this, I should like to know whether the child

24 was accompanied by his parents.

25 A. No.

Page 4662

1 Q. Very well. Would you now tell us what was the approximate

2 distance between the alleged firing position, that is, the position from

3 which the bullet had come, and the location of the incident?

4 A. As the crow flies, two or three hundred metres. The terrain is

5 not even in this area. It was a hilly terrain. And the fire was opened

6 from a hill, so I couldn't tell you what the exact distance was. However,

7 I must say that I don't see the relevance of this question, because a

8 child is a child, and must not be targeted, whatever happens, even if he

9 were near the trenches.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I understand your remark, sir, concerning this event, but I need

13 some further precision. What did this child wear? What kind of clothing

14 did he have on?

15 A. I can't remember. We didn't find him on the scene. It was only

16 at the hospital that we saw the child, and that is, after all, what you

17 can see on the photograph.

18 Q. You conducted this investigation, sir, but you failed to ask [as

19 interpreted] what kind of clothing this child was wearing?

20 A. This was done by the inspector who was the leader of the

21 investigation.

22 Q. And who was that inspector?

23 A. I don't remember. I really cannot remember.

24 Q. You don't remember. Very well. I understand. Who was the

25 ballistics expert for this particular incident? Do you remember?

Page 4663

1 A. I've read this document. It must have been Senad Mesic, one of

2 the most experienced ballistics experts in Sarajevo.

3 Q. Very well. I will wind up with this incident. Since the witness

4 told us he couldn't remember, I should like to now go back to the

5 Alipasino Polje incident.

6 Sir, yesterday, in response to a question by the Presiding Judge,

7 you said that you remembered very well that there was a kind of

8 headquarters, a military headquarters, in the area of Alipasino Polje. I

9 should like to take you back to this incident, because we need some

10 further precision. Do you know the address of the place that you mention,

11 or rather, mentioned in your testimony?

12 A. Yesterday I was not able to tell you the exact location because I

13 couldn't remember. I told you it was some kind of an administrative unit,

14 but now I know that it was a personnel department. I made some effort and

15 I managed to remember what it was. So it was the personnel department of

16 the Kulin Ban unit, which unit, to my knowledge, didn't have any

17 specific positions. I don't know what kind of unit it was. All I know,

18 that later on when we fought some internal crime incident, which is known

19 to all that -- at the end of 1993 the Ministry of the Interior made some

20 actions to that effect. So it was a department which was some 200 metres

21 away from the point of impact on Rade Koncara Square in the Alipasino

22 Polje neighbourhood.

23 Q. Witness, let's stay with this incident for a while. This is very

24 important information for the Defence. I would like to know whether you

25 managed to remember this here in The Hague, whether it was here that you

Page 4664

1 remembered this unit.

2 A. You mean the name of the unit?

3 Q. Not only the name of the unit, but the very existence of a

4 military facility in the region.

5 A. Yes, and it was targeted. In my report, or in my official note, I

6 also stated the name, Kulin Ban, of the unit, but I must say that we

7 never shrunk from mentioning something that we thought was important. If

8 you're doing your job professionally, there is no reason to hide

9 anything. I understand what you want to establish. You want to establish

10 that the gentlemen from the other side were targeting this military

11 facility but somehow ended up killing three and wounding 20 civilians.

12 Q. Witness, well, you perhaps know things that I don't know, but I

13 would like to know, in which document precisely you indicated the

14 existence of this military facility at the time of the investigation. In

15 your report, where do you make mention of that?

16 A. My official report was made on the scene of the incident, so upon

17 the onsite investigation, I made record of this piece of information. As

18 I said, there was a whole team of people, and their names are contained in

19 this report, together with the names of the casualties, the killed, the

20 wounded, and eyewitnesses with, if you have the report in question.

21 Q. Is this the official note 19/05-2, dated 22nd of July, 1994 do you

22 remember that? I'm sorry. 10th of November, 1993.

23 A. No, I don't remember the exact reference, but I remember that a

24 document was made which is called an official report on that date, and

25 that the incident took place in November.

Page 4665

1 Q. Thank you very much. My colleague will go back to this issue,

2 because she is better familiar with the geography of the place.

3 Let me ask you whether it is correct that in this report you make

4 mention of the fact that there was a military factory on this locality.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer. Let us go back to this military

7 facility that we mentioned. You said that it was involved with personnel

8 issues. Do you know how many people worked in this facility?

9 A. I don't, no. I don't think it is a very significant number. I

10 don't think that anyone wore a uniform there. Mostly women worked there.

11 Your colleague is probably familiar with the area, so she must know how

12 large this square is, this tarmac square between these buildings.

13 Q. Sir, didn't you state in one of your statements that it is

14 possible that at that moment of time, several civilians wearing uniform

15 may have passed at that moment?

16 A. I don't remember stating something of the kind.

17 Q. You didn't state that? Very well. I take note of that. So there

18 was absolutely no one --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Since my learned colleague has put to this witness

21 that he stated in one of his statements that it is possible that at that

22 moment several civilians wearing uniforms passed, I'd ask that he identify

23 the statement by the date and the page.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you able to quote literally?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll be happy to do it

Page 4666

1 in a moment. I will look for it. I think it's in the Serb text. And

2 we'll go back to the issue when we find it.

3 Q. Witness, let us now continue with the geographical layout, the

4 location of this incident. Was this facility on the ground floor or

5 upstairs?

6 A. I don't even know where it was. I never saw it. It is just on

7 the basis of statements given by eyewitnesses that we conducted our

8 investigation, and they told us that the shell tail was lying somewhere

9 around. So we were busy looking for this tail. However, if you're basing

10 yourself on the statement, I wish I had given a statement to the effect

11 that a soldier was passing by, and if anyone was able to see a soldier

12 passing by in a square in the Nedzarici neighbourhood, together with 500

13 other civilians, I mean, if such a person -- such an individual could be

14 targeted, then that must be an expert.

15 Q. You raised an issue involving a shell. Do you know what happened

16 with that shell?

17 A. I don't know. I know that a shell exploded and killed civilians.

18 Q. Witness, are you not aware of the fact that some parts of this

19 shell, in particular, the tail, is perhaps in the possession of the army?

20 A. You are now asking me about the parts of the shell, but a moment

21 ago you asked me about the shell in its entirety. Now, this a different

22 thing. On the basis of fragments that we were able to find at and around

23 the point of impact, one can easily establish what kind of projectile that

24 was. As for the tail, it was no longer on the -- at the spot of -- at the

25 very spot, at the impact spot.

Page 4667

1 Q. You haven't answered my question. Do you know whether this very

2 important part of the shell, which is called the tail, is in the

3 possession of the army? Do you know if they have this part of the shell?

4 A. If you have read my report, you would see that the tail was -- or

5 the stabiliser, as you call it, was taken by the members of such-and-such

6 unit. I don't remember the name of the unit. So we did not find it on

7 the spot. We found all other parts of the shell, on the basis of which we

8 could determine the type of the shell. As for the tail, we didn't find

9 it. Whether it was found subsequently, I don't know, but I know that when

10 we came to the scene, we started to search for the tail.

11 Q. Witness, I may have read your report, but the Chamber hasn't, and

12 that is why I have to put to you these questions, because the Chamber is

13 not familiar with your report. Speaking of the stabiliser, or rather, the

14 tail, it seems that the army gathered the traces of the incident. Does it

15 mean that before your arrival, members of the army had already been there?

16 A. I didn't see them.

17 Q. Let me rephrase the question. If members of the army had not been

18 there, would the members of your team have found this part of the debris?

19 A. Well, once it happened, for instance, that children took the --

20 one of such traces from the scene of the incident. It's not necessarily

21 the army. You have to understand the way it happened. This one shell

22 fell right after the other. There was war going on in Sarajevo. One

23 was -- one could risk death at every corner, at every moment, in the town.

24 Q. Witness, you told us that nobody was there before you. I think

25 that we should read your testimony yesterday. I think that -- it was the

Page 4668

1 28th.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have not

3 worked on the revised version of the text but on the original that we had,

4 and as a result of that, the line that I am about to give can only be the

5 hour. So it was 10 hours, 0016.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin's question starts with the words:

7 "Witness, you told us that nobody was there before you." That is not my

8 reading of the evidence the witness has given.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is this line where you're referring to yesterday's

10 testimony, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, which we tried to locate?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't

12 understand the question that you asked. I was just checking something

13 else on my screen. Would you be please so kind and --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace made an objection against the first

15 part of your question, which appears on page 83, line 18, which reads:

16 "Witness, you told us that nobody was there before you. I think that we

17 should read your testimony yesterday. I think it was the 28th."

18 Since Mr. Ierace tells us that in his recollection that was not

19 the testimony given and since you were referring to yesterday, I wondered

20 whether this first line of your question referred to yesterday's testimony

21 you're just trying to locate. So the testimony that nobody was there

22 before the witness; would that be yesterday's testimony or would it be of

23 today? But I have another solution, perhaps.

24 Mr. Ierace asked us for one minute before the break -- before we

25 adjourn until tomorrow. This will give ample opportunity to

Page 4669

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to see whether he can find the source of this part.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but what I can tell you

3 right away, there seems to have been a misunderstanding. I can tell you

4 right away, because I wish to be perfectly loyal, that the spot where the

5 witness mentioned was at 10 hours, 15, when he mentioned a soldier as

6 being part of this group. Do you want to -- do you want me to read it?

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you have it in front of you, perhaps we

8 could -- yes, but --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I do.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm using yesterday's transcript, without any times

11 in it, as it appears on my computer, so that's the reason why I couldn't

12 immediately locate 10.00. Please read the line, and perhaps then we'll

13 put the question to the witness tomorrow, But we'll at least have located

14 what we're talking about.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will read what I see in the

16 transcript, 10 hours, 16:

17 "[In English] [Previous translation continues]... may have passed

18 by, but there was no military formation there."

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think your -- let me just have a look. Is the

20 difference in view, Mr. Ierace, that the text just read by

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is that "may have passed by," where his question

22 today - but I have to change to today's transcript - would be that --

23 MR. IERACE: The words were: "Witness, you told us that no one

24 was there before you." Now, those words bear no relationship to the part

25 of the transcript which Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just read.

Page 4670

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps, since we have to continue anyway

2 tomorrow, could we just try to think it over? We've got some time for

3 it. And then I'll now give an opportunity to Mr. Ierace to make a remark.

4 He said he would use one minute.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would have finished it easily if I would not

6 have the fear that this courtroom might be needed this afternoon. That's

7 always the morning session that has to end timely.

8 If this would -- please, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, what I'm about to say actually relates

10 to this witness, but I don't think that there will be a problem. I'm

11 informed through the Victims and Witnesses Unit that this witness is most

12 anxious to return to Sarajevo by tomorrow night. He travels by train.

13 It's a two-day trip to return. He's been here for two weeks waiting to

14 give his evidence and giving his evidence, and he now faces serious

15 concerns on the part of his employer, to the point that he fears that his

16 employment may be in some jeopardy if he doesn't return. I draw that to

17 the Trial Chamber's attention in the hope that we are at least able to

18 finish this witness's evidence tomorrow. I don't blame anyone, of

19 course. I've taken some considerable time in examination-in-chief. I had

20 hoped that the map-marking would reduce it. But it's simply an

21 unavoidable problem that we have a little backlog. Of course, Mr. Harding

22 is waiting around as well. So, Mr. President, the reason I raise the

23 issue is simply to clarify whether we could expect that cross-examination

24 will finish by, say, the -- halfway through the last session tomorrow

25 morning. Thank you.

Page 4671

1 JUDGE ORIE: Halfway through the last session, what --

2 MR. IERACE: That would allow some little time for any

3 re-examination and questions from the Bench.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Yes. Of course, we cannot

5 give an answer to your question at this very moment, since we still have

6 to wait to -- well, how the cross-examination develops.

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic, could you give an estimate on

8 whether you would be able, well, let's say, to finish the

9 cross-examination tomorrow by -- it would then be approximately a quarter

10 past 1.00 or shortly after 1.00? That would mean that you have

11 another -- let's say a little bit over three hours.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we'll do our best.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's commitment we have to accept.

14 Mr. Kucanin, we heard about -- you see that we paid attention to

15 your problems and you had to wait here for quite a long time, which is,

16 well, beyond our control. But we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of March,

19 2002, at 9.00 a.m.