1 Wednesday, 13 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Stamp, yesterday we got stuck at a certain moment with copies
11 of a document. I expect the Prosecution to have taken all necessary
12 measures, and then please proceed with the examination of the witness.
13 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President,
15 Your Honours, and thank you for handing me the floor. The Defence would
16 like to say that the document we got this morning, ten minutes ago, the
17 document is still not legible, so I really don't know how we can possibly
18 work with this document. They told us that they cannot give us a better
19 quality of this document. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just have a look on the document as it is in
21 its best condition.
22 Mr. Stamp, could you please tell us what, in your view, the
23 situation is.
24 MR. STAMP: I'm informed that the original we have is just as good
25 as these copies. I had asked for the best possible copies to be brought,
1 and these, I'm told, are the best possible copies.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I assume that you do agree that part of it is not
4 MR. STAMP: I have -- it has been indicated to me that with
5 effort, they were read and translated. So I propose to ask the witness if
6 we could read it into the record since he participated in making it.
7 Probably it would be difficult for him to make it out, but he probably
8 would be able to do so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say that some deciphering would be possible.
10 Let me just see whether the witness could do this, if you ask him to do
11 so, and then see what the situation then is. And then of course we should
12 have a look at the translation as well where it says already that one line
13 is illegible. So please proceed at this very moment, and we'll then later
14 decide on whether this is admissible evidence or not.
15 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all this being
18 said, I would like to say the following: I am assured that the witness is
19 very well prepared and he could certainly read this document in a partial
20 manner. The fact is the Defence was not able to get acquainted with this
21 document because we were not able to verify the reality of the translation
22 with an original to compare the two, because one fourth or one third of
23 the document is almost completely illegible and this cannot change
24 anything to the fact that the preparation for the cross-examination of
25 this witness was not sufficient. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may add
3 one more thing on another issue, the Defence, following your suggestion of
4 yesterday, has examined, for other witnesses, problems of -- has examined
5 other documents. We have had conversations with the Prosecution up until
6 late last night, 11.00 p.m. last night. I will not say who I spoke to.
7 When I asked for these documents, I asked the Prosecution to be handed
8 these documents, and they told us that they did not know we had asked for
9 such documents. I can ask for these documents. But if you tell me that
10 the Prosecution does not even know what we are talking about, whereas we
11 had asked on one or two occasions late last night, I am quite worried
12 about this.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What was the response? They were going to get the
14 document, or was there any refusal to do so?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you asked me
16 last time when we have documents that are not in a legible state or that
17 are not of a good quality, and I would like to show you here only to
18 inform the Court what they look like. And you told us we should ask them
19 to get clearer copy. I had requested to get a better copy last night, and
20 this morning the Prosecution had no idea that we had ever requested them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: They had no idea that you requested this yesterday
22 evening or before?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we had these
24 conversations between last night and late last night, so I told them that
25 they should try to give us these documents as soon as possible. I asked
1 again earlier this morning, the Prosecution, if they were able to give us
2 these documents, and they said that they didn't know anything about it.
3 They didn't know when we could get these documents. This is what I
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not quite clear to me. I do understand that you
6 asked for copies of documents yesterday evening, and this morning the
7 Prosecution would not have been aware of your request. Is this a
8 misunderstanding or is this -- what I'd like to find out is whether
9 there's a malcommunication or whether there's unwillingness to assist each
11 MR. STAMP: There's no unwillingness on the part of the
12 Prosecution. The fact is we were not aware of the request made at 11.00
13 p.m. last night. Up until now, I have just heard of this request this
14 morning, if my friend Mr. Piletta-Zanin communicated to me directly that
15 request or if he could tell me who in the Prosecution's office he spoke to
16 and gave this information at 11:00 last night, I will be able to assist as
17 well as I can.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to solve problems if there's any
19 unwillingness. I'm not willing to solve a communication problem that
20 exists somewhere in the middle of the night and which can be easily
21 solved, and I think that's the view of the Chamber.
22 So then, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sabljica.
3 A. Good morning.
4 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be shown document 2171, please,
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please assist.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have copies of these
8 documents, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We have an extra copy just provided to us. So if
10 there is any need for extra copies for the booth, even the Chamber could
11 be of some assistance.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document
13 that is handed was handed with its translation or not?
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was handed with the translation, at least
15 the copies that we provided with translations.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Was the witness -- did the
17 witness become aware of the translation? Because if the witness was able
18 to read the English translation, if he understands more or less the
19 English language, this exercise has no really point.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Has the copy that has been given to the witness the
21 translation attached, 2171.1, or...
22 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is just in possession of the original,
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you will see that the second page of the document
4 that you contributed in preparing is not very clear in some parts. If you
5 could assist us by returning to the first page, and I'm going to ask you
6 to read as best you can your report from where it begins "pregledom lica
7 mjesta." Please proceed.
8 A. A forensic investigation carried out at the shelling site at
9 Klare Zetkin Street in the park between Kare Zetkin Street and the Rade
10 Kovcar square. It has said that the shell fell on the sidewalk.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is asking the witness to start
12 over again, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Sabljica, could you please read slowly and
14 start again reading the passage you were just --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The witness could tell us what exactly he is
16 reading, which portion of the document?
17 JUDGE ORIE: This is just for the booth. As far as I can see he
18 started reading the last linear of the first page of the original, and
19 that would be --
20 MR. STAMP: I think he started at the beginning of the last
21 paragraph in the first page from the part where it says "pregledom lica
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, "pregledom lica mjesta." I can imagine that
24 since the second paragraph starts with the same words, it is quite
25 similar, but there could be some confusion. So the witness is starting at
1 the bottom of the first page of the original document. Could you please
2 read slowly for the booth.
3 A. "Inspection of the impact site of the third shell in the park
4 between the building that bears number 4 on the Street Klare Zetkin, the
5 investigation uncovered that the shell hit the unpaved surface between the
6 sidewalk and the lane. Traces of the central crater, peripheral marks,
7 are not very well seen whereas the length of the elliptic patterns is
8 mainly seen in the direction of west, or rather slightly towards north
9 with respect to the magnetic west. The length of these traces is
10 approximately 120 centimetres long. On the basis of the shape of the
11 traces, of the patterns, that had fanned out and from the traces of the
12 fragments of the shell" -- there are two words that I cannot read. I can
13 only guess what is written here, but I wouldn't like to read out something
14 that I'm not sure of. There are two words that I'm totally not sure of.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you have to guess, it's better not to do so.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Okay, proceed beyond those two words, please.
19 A. Should I go on?
20 Q. Yes, beyond the two words.
21 A. I will read what is legible.
22 Q. Go on, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate line by line where there
24 are parts that you cannot read. So you said the first two words you
25 couldn't read were exactly on what line? You're on the second page now.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading now the third paragraph,
2 or third line rather, following the words "fragmented parts." It's the
3 last two words in the third line, and I cannot read them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So you can't read the last words of the third line?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed with what you can read.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It is possible to see on the
8 buildings surrounding the area" -- once again, I wouldn't like to guess
9 what is written, and I cannot read it up until the end of the line.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The last part of line 4, if I'm correct. Yes, please
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "A mortar shell was hit, exploded,
13 with a calibre of" -- and I cannot read the last words in line 5.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, then, with line 6.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In the direction where Nedzarici is
16 situated, or that is to say the Institute for the Blind."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it line 7 you're reading at this moment, or?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm following the translation.
22 The witness does not read line number 6 at all.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I pointed at.
24 Could you please read line 6. You indicated to us that you could
25 not read the last part of line 5. Could you see what you could read from
1 line 6 in which I decipher the words "neto prema." That's line 6 as far
2 as I can see.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "From the direction," something
4 rather as to indicate towards the north or more like it to the west. "In
5 this direction -- in that direction is situated Nedzarici, or the
6 Institute for the Blind."
7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, could you read every single word
8 of line 6, or were there words you couldn't read?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first word on line 6 is
10 illegible. I think that what is written here is "fell," Pala in B/C/S.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The first word you couldn't read. And at the end of
12 the line, could you read all words?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Are located Nedzarici or the
14 institute." We don't see the word "for," but I know it's Institute for
15 the blind.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Line 6, in the middle, I see a word Prema. Can you
17 read what follows the word "Prema." I see the witness nodding that he
18 could read that part of line 6. Could you continue with line 7, in which
19 I see the word "Nedzarici."
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Or the Institute for the Blind."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. STAMP: I'm not quite sure if I follow you here,
23 Mr. Sabljica. Could you read as best as you can from the word "prema" on
24 line 6.
25 A. "Towards the north or the west, in this direction are located
1 Nedzarici, that is to say, the Institute for the Blind."
2 Q. Continue.
3 A. "In the vicinity of the site where the shell fell, a tail of a
4 mortar bomb was found. The calibre of it being 120 millimetres. However,
5 since the explosion marks found on the spot, in other words, the traces
6 indicate the impact point of a shell of a 82 millimetre. One stabiliser
7 of this mortar shell was fired from another place, perhaps and more likely
8 from the roof of some neighbouring buildings."
9 Q. Could I just ask you to read again from the sentence ending "Lica
10 Mjesta." That's the tenth line down. Could you read from the beginning
11 of the sentence on the tenth line from top.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see the words "lica mjesta" appearing three times
13 at least, so it's on the tenth line.
14 MR. STAMP: Tenth line.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's where it starts, the second words seems to be
16 something like "projektila," or something like that. That's the place you
17 are seeking, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. To begin
21 with, to show the witness has not read as far as we know the penultimate
22 word of line 2, and that it seems that he has neither read -- doesn't --
23 it is not perhaps important, but where we are now, he read TJ, which means
24 i.e. in the text. But the penultimate word of the second line it seems
25 was not read by the witness, and I see that the witness is nodding, so
1 obviously there is something. And could perhaps the witness then read the
2 word. Could he be requested to do that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please later ask him whether he did read the two last
4 words of line 2, because I think he started hesitating at line 3. But
5 please proceed.
6 MR. STAMP:
7 Q. Yes, could you proceed with the sentence that starts on the tenth
8 line from top, and the sentence begins right of the words "lica mjesta"?
9 A. "That is marks indicating the impact of a 82-millimetre shell.
10 This tail-fin of a mortar shell fell from some other place. In all
11 likelihood, from the roof of one of the surrounding buildings where at the
12 time of the incident, at the time of the incident, yet another shell
13 fell. The shell killed five persons."
14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sabljica.
15 Now I'd like to go a little bit slowly.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make clear to the parties, of course the
17 Chamber will decide at a later stage on whether this is -- this document
18 is admissible as evidence or not. But for this very moment, please
19 proceed, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Now, could you please --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please first go to the last words of line
24 MR. STAMP: Yes.
25 Q. Could you please return to the two last words of line 2 on the
1 second page of this document.
2 A. "General shape."
3 Q. There's a sentence which starts on that second line. Could you
4 read from the beginning of the sentence.
5 A. "On the basis of the general shape, or general outline..."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the translation was going
8 on, but we are not getting the same interpretation from the French booth
9 and the English transcript. The interpretation from the French booth was
10 "shape" whereas we had something else in English, and I think these
11 things should be clarified just to have it all clear.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there are some translation
13 problems, and we are aware at this moment we have to inspect, perhaps, the
14 transcript, the English and the French transcript. If it would be of
15 vital importance for the cross-examination, please indicate so,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. STAMP: I am not quite sure of the interpretation at the
19 beginning of the paragraph.
20 Q. I'm going to ask you again if you could to start again, and we're
21 not going through the entire paragraph, but the first sentence of the
22 paragraph which begins at the bottom of the first page.
23 A. "The marks of the -- the pattern of the central crater is
25 Q. Sorry, I'm asking to you read again from the beginning of the
1 paragraph at the bottom of the page. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That is at "pregledom lica."
3 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So the last six lines of page 1.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "On the on-site inspection of the
6 impact point of an artillery shell in the area in front of building number
7 4 in Klare Zetkin Street established that the artillery shell had fallen
8 or had hit the edge of the curb between the traffic lane and the pavement,
9 sidewalk. The pattern of the central crater is not particularly marked,
10 whereas the length of elliptic, star-shaped traces is most pronounced in a
11 westerly direction, that is, slightly towards north in relation to west
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification at this very
15 moment of the booth. As far as I see, the second time the witness was
16 reading this specific part, I did not hear in the translation anything
17 about a third shell, while on page 6, line 22, the translation says that
18 "it was about a third shell."
19 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President, that's why I came back to this
20 part to ensure that it was clarified.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. Please proceed. It just was unclear to
22 me and I was a bit confused by it. Please proceed.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. Now Mr. Sabljica, having read from this document as best as you
25 can, is your memory refreshed in respect to your investigation that day?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In respect to your investigation of the impact site in front of 4
3 Klare Zetkin Street, which was on the curb, can you say the direction from
4 which that shell came?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you please tell the Court the direction from which that
7 shell came.
8 A. Slightly towards more north-northwest in relation to west proper,
9 so slightly towards north.
10 Q. Slightly towards north of west proper; is that your answer?
11 A. That's right. Yes.
12 Q. Now, can you recall what type of round would have caused the
13 crater which you saw in front of 4 Klare Zetkin Street?
14 A. It was a mortar shell, 82 millimetre.
15 Q. You said a 120 millimetre tail-fin was found in the vicinity. Can
16 you recall where that was found?
17 A. Nearby, near the place where this 82-millimetre shell fell, yes,
18 but I can't remember the exact distance.
19 Q. Well, just clarify one thing in respect to that: Was it or was it
20 not found in the crater itself of the 82-millimetre shell crater?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In respect to your inspection of the site in front of number 3
23 Cetinjska Street, your record is legible. Could you confirm for the Court
24 the type of mortar shell which fell on the street in front of number 3
25 Cetinjska Street?
1 A. It was a mortar shell, 82-millimetre shell.
2 Q. And can you confirm for the Court the direction from which this
3 shell which fell in front of number 3 Cetinjska Street came?
4 A. From the west.
5 Q. From your record and your recollection of your investigation,
6 could you tell the Court if there is any significant area in the direction
7 of the west, from 3 Cetinjska Street and 4 Klare Zetkin Street?
8 A. It was the locality of Nedzarici, or rather the area around the
9 building housing the Institute for the Blind, and that particular area was
10 under the aggressor's control.
11 Q. Do you know of any particular military installation which existed
12 in that particular area?
13 A. In the former Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav People's Army had its
14 barracks in the immediate vicinity of that building -- I mean, the
15 vicinity of the Institute for the Blind.
16 Q. Now, if I may, Mr. Sabljica, refer you to the last paragraph of
17 your report.
18 MR. STAMP: And I think Mr. President, Your Honours, I may proceed
19 quickly. I don't think there's any problem with illegibility. Thank you
20 very much.
21 Q. Can you confirm for the Court that that impact site was at an
22 unpaved surface in the park between Klare Zetkin Street and Rade Kovcar
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And you used your standard method of measuring the patterns of the
1 rays which emanated from the central crater?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the longer axis were in a westward direction, and these axis
4 were longer and clearer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where did you conclude that the shell was fired from, which
8 A. On the basis of the general pattern of destruction marks and
9 because these were more marked from the westward direction, and that is
10 how we determined that the projectile must have landed from that
12 Q. So your conclusion was the projectile came in from the west as
14 A. That's right, yes.
15 Q. Briefly, let me take you back to that 120 millimetre tail-fin.
16 You said that that might have come from a shell which fell from the roof
17 of a building. Did you receive reports that there was a fourth shell
18 which hit a roof?
19 A. Nothing in writing, but it was based on witnesses' statements,
20 that is, people who lived in the area.
21 Q. Did you do any analysis of any roof or side or top or back of a
22 building structure itself that day?
23 A. No. As these are tall buildings, they are skyscrapers,
24 multistorey buildings, it wasn't all that easy to conduct that analysis.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 Now, was that site photographed, the site of the three-shell --
2 may I rephrase the question, take it step by step. Do you know if the
3 site at number 3 Cetinjska Street was photographed?
4 A. Yes it was.
5 Q. And can you say the site of the shell which fell at number 4 Klare
6 Zetkin Street was photographed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you recall who did the photography?
9 A. The crime technician.
10 Q. If you have a look at your report, will it assist you as to who
11 did the photography?
12 A. [redacted].
13 Q. Finally --
14 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, may I proffer to the
15 witness a blank map already marked P3644. I understand that this is a
16 map we have already been using.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but perhaps first one of the last answers of the
18 witness about a person for which the Prosecution sought protective
19 measures, if I am correct.
20 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for a name, and the name was given. And I
22 think we need a redaction as far as the answer is concerned, although
23 protective measures have not yet been granted.
24 MR. STAMP: Pending.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Pending the outcome.
1 MR. STAMP: I'm very grateful for the guidance, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed. I have not clearly in my
3 mind what your last --
4 MR. STAMP: I had asked leave of the Court to proffer to the
5 witness the map --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The black and white, yes, please proceed.
7 MR. STAMP: Do we need --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm using
10 this break because I do not want to interfere with the witness, but we
11 would like, and we would appreciate, when we speak about either of the
12 parties here, we normally try not to use words such as "aggressor." I did
13 not really want to interrupt the witness, but this is a general rule. I
14 do not know whether the Chamber agrees with me or not, but this is an
15 important point.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the testimony of
17 the witness and not the question. But perhaps I would like to ask both
18 parties that if one of the witnesses refers to one of the parties in the
19 conflict as the "aggressor" or the "defender," then to first of all
20 identify who was the aggressor or the defender, and secondly invite the
21 witness to use a different denomination for the parties.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 That means, Mr. Sabljica, for you that where you have been talking
25 about the aggressor, would you please indicate to what party -- I can
1 imagine that it would be the Serbian armed forces or the Bosnian and
2 Herzegovinian armed forces, that you speak in these terms rather than in
3 terms of aggressors or defenders, because it gives more information to the
5 Please proceed, Mr. Staple.
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
7 Q. So you referred to the area surrounding the Institute for the
8 Blind. Could you just tell the Court which party controlled it, was it
9 the Serbian army or the army of the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 I should properly put it. Was it the army of the Republika Srpska or the
11 army of the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. That area was under the control of the army of Republika Srpska.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Now, could you have a look at that map, and I'm going to first ask
15 you to point out as best you can where Markale is, Markale market is, on
16 that map. Take your time and...
17 Have you located the area of the Markale market?
18 MR. STAMP: Could you assist him by putting the thing under the
19 ELMO. Will you prefer a smaller pen?
20 JUDGE ORIE: As long as it is blue, I'm quite happy.
21 MR. STAMP: I'm afraid I'm not seeing what is on the ELMO. I
22 don't know if it's a technical problem on this side.
23 Q. Just put a circle.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Put an X in the circle with the two lines crossing in the middle
1 of the circle.
2 A. [Marks].
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we ask the technical
6 booth to zoom in a little bit. We can hardly read the map like this.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps move the map a bit I would say in a
8 northwesterly direction. Could you please assist, Mr. Usher, so that the
9 centre of the -- the place marked by the witness is in the centre of the
10 screen. Yes. And then zoom in as good as possible.
11 Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
13 Q. Can you point to where you marked the market? I'm not seeing that
15 JUDGE ORIE: I see the marking made below the words "Stari Grad"
16 just under the I of "Stari."
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Now, I would like you to draw a line just in the direction of 18
19 degrees of north on that map. I know you can't be precise; you don't have
20 instruments here, but give us your best approximation.
21 A. [Marks].
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry,
24 Mr. President, but we cannot see the end of the line. Could we ask the
25 witness to extend the line further because I think that the issue is quite
2 MR. STAMP: I was about to ask him.
3 Q. Could you just take the line to the top of the map.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. Thank you. As best you can, Witness, I'd like you to find the
6 location of the impact site for the shell which hit the edge of the
7 asphalt area in the hollow of Pupina Street and Oslobodilaca Street on the
8 4th of February, 1994.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this may not be
12 so important, but I think that this map has been premarked. On another
13 map, we have a green point which is in the far end of the town of Sarajevo
14 near the locality which is called Kotorac, which you will find south of
15 the airport. That is, southeast, 5.00. I don't know whether you have
16 this premarked point on your map. We have it on ours. I don't know if
17 this is a mistake or...
18 JUDGE ORIE: I can't locate it.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 5.00, southeast.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't see the number on my
22 map. What number are you talking about? I can indicate it like this with
23 my finger. It is quite legible. The southern east extremity of the
24 airport, we have a point here which seems to have been premarked. I don't
25 know if this is a mistake, if it is only the case with our map. On our
1 map, the point was made in green. I don't know whether you can see it
2 from the distance.
3 MR. STAMP: I don't have that on my map.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...green as a
5 matter of fact on my map. Would you please give it to the usher and see
6 whether it's different than mine. If you would ask the usher to keep his
7 thumb on the green spot, that would facilitate me to -- and then perhaps
8 if the usher could -- yes, Madam Registrar, if you could put your thumb on
9 the very same place as well.
10 Madam Registrar.
11 MR. STAMP: May I have a look at that, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please show it to...there's a green
13 dot on it. I don't know who placed that on it. I don't know when it was
14 placed on it. I expect that at a later stage if the green spot would
15 bother the Defence, that you'll get a clean one.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have a
17 problem with the colour. What I would like to have checked is whether the
18 map has been premarked.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, there's a mark on your map which is
20 not on our maps. I think it's not of major importance to find out at this
21 moment, who did the marking, whether it was intentionally done, or whether
22 it was done by mistake by someone who had a green marker pen in his hand.
23 I don't think at this moment you are concentrating on that area of the
24 map, so please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Yes.
1 Q. Could you look at the area located between the buildings Mihaila
2 Pupina and Oslobodilaca Sarajevo in Dobrinja?
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. And the X you marked there, that is the impact site or the
5 approximation of the impact site at the edge of the asphalted area.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you mark the area behind the building at Mihaila Pupina
8 Street where another shell fell in this hollow area?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm really
11 truly sorry. The map that we were given is not the same as the map we
12 were given earlier on. I don't know what happened with the other map.
13 The map that we received a moment ago is not the same one that we have
14 here. This one doesn't have any annotation, any marking whatsoever.
15 There must have been a confusion. I think that the map that we had a
16 moment ago ended up with someone else. I don't know if it's the
17 Prosecution who --
18 MR. STAMP: I think if my friend wants to recover the map we had,
19 we will hand it to him. I think what happened is because of what
20 complaint we thought about the marking on the map, the Registrar handed
21 you a new map.
22 I see she is nodding in agreement. If you would like your old
23 map, you could have both the old one and the new one.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We marked these maps in order
25 to be able to work on it, and it has just been taken away from us.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You will get your old map with the green marking on
2 it back and you have a new virgin one as well.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
4 Mr. President.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Yes, you were about to mark for us the area where the shell fell
7 behind the building at Mihaila Pupina Street.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, could you put a circle around the
10 one that fell at the edge of the asphalt.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Could you now put an X at the approximate site of the one which
13 fell on Oslobodilaca Sarajevo Street?
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And that is the one which you did not do a crater analysis on?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, from that general area, perhaps you could use a broader
18 marker, I would like you to draw a line.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, just for the sake of the clarity of the
20 record, the second cross indicated by the witness on the map was the one
21 without a circle, but the lower one and the third cross was the cross
22 without the circle around it, the upper.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I'll try to
24 ensure that I -- ensure the record is up to date.
25 Q. Could you use a broader marker to draw a line from that general
1 area towards the east where Lukavica is.
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. And I ask you to draw it as far as you can on the map, just to the
4 end of the map?
5 A. [Marks].
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Nothing, Mr. President. I
8 misread the text.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. Just draw it.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. Now, could you circle the area you call Lukavica.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And could you put an X over the place you call the Energo
16 Investment complex.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Now, in respect to that incident of the 4th of February, 1994,
19 Mr. Sabljica, could you say about how far was the confrontation line
20 between the army of the Republika Srpska and the army of the federation of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina in the direction from which the shells came.
22 May I just rephrase the question. How far from the impact site
23 going towards the direction from which the shells came was the separation
24 line between the two armies?
25 A. Between 350 and 400 metres.
1 Q. And that is your approximation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to take you now to the 22nd of January, 1994. And
4 I'm sorry to be taking you backwards, but could you please mark for us the
5 area on the road in front of number 3 Cetinjska Street as far -- if you
6 can. I know this is an approximation, but please do your best, take your
8 A. [Marks].
9 MR. STAMP: The witness makes an X around which he draws a
11 Q. Could you make an X this time with no circle at the site in front
12 of number 4 Klare Zetkin Street where the shell impacted on the curb
13 between the traffic lane and the sidewalk.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And could you put a circle with no X at the impact site in the
16 park, that is a park between Klare Zetkin Street and Rade Kovcar park
17 where the shell hit the surface?
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Oh, you put a cross. Could you put beside that cross a number 3.
20 I was hoping you'd put a circle.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. And using the broader pen, could you draw a line in the direction
23 of the west. One moment. And I'm going to ask you to draw a line in the
24 direction of the west from the site at number 3 Cetinjska Street, straight
25 westward to the end of the map.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. And I am going to ask you to draw a line from the impact site at 4
3 Klare Zetkin Street going westward but slightly north of west as you
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. Draw that line straight to the end of the map, please.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Could you put a circle around the area in Nedzarici where the
9 compound of the Institute for the Blind is. What you described to us,
10 Witness -- please wait, Witness -- you described to us the Institute for
11 the Blind, and you spoke of an area around the Institute for the Blind. I
12 want you to put the circle not around what you think is the Institute for
13 the Blind but around that area which you described which surrounds the
14 Institute for the Blind.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Now, could you put a circle where -- a circle with B in it for the
17 Institute for the Blind, if you can find it.
18 A. [Marks].
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to be able to follow,
22 could we please have this portion zoomed in, if possible.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, could the technicians zoom in,
24 especially on the circle and the B and have it at the centre of the --
25 Mr. Usher, yes.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing
3 further in chief -- I was just indicating, Mr. President, I have nothing
4 further in chief of this witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STAMP: I have for the Court, perhaps we could deal with it at
7 a later date, copies of one of the documents he referred to. I think we
8 eventually had him read from the better copies which were later produced.
9 And as he has indicated, the site was photographed, the witness to whom we
10 seek protective measures, he says, took those photographs and we intend to
11 put in those photographs at a later date, but they are here and available,
12 if the Court should so desire to see them.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one moment, please.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we can expect photographs at a later stage
16 introduced by another witness. And as far as the documents P2171 is
17 concerned, of course this Chamber will have to consider whether it's
18 admissible in evidence or not. You'll understand that, Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Being it's three minutes before the time we usually
21 have a break, I don't think it's of great use to start the
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Thank you
25 very much. However, it would be useful to us to know what your decision
1 regarding the illegible document is going to be, because we don't know
2 whether we will be asking questions on the basis of that document or not.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the Chamber will
4 give it some consideration during the break. So therefore three minutes
5 extra is not bad at all.
6 Mr. Stamp, is there anything you'd like to --
7 MR. STAMP: Since we have three minutes, perhaps the witness could
8 be escorted out. There is one small comment I may make and one small
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but once the witness is escorted out of this
11 courtroom, I'd like the technical booth to make sure that no pictures are
12 broadcasted when he leaves the courtroom, because -- I made an arrangement
13 for that, so the protective measures, the face distortion, is still
15 Can I get a confirmation from the technical booth that when the
16 witness is escorted out, that the measures are still effective? Yes.
17 Then please, Mr. Sabljica, when you return in this courtroom, you'll then
18 be examined by the Defence counsel.
19 Mr. Usher, would you please guide Mr. Sabljica out of the
21 Mr. Stamp, please proceed, yes.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much. The first comment I make is in
23 response to something my learned friend said. As I understand it and it
24 is really a matter for the Court to decide, the Defence may cross-examine
25 on a document whether or not it is in evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if we finally would not admit it into
2 evidence, then of course I think it's a good awareness of using the time
3 properly. But we'll guide him in that respect after the break, yes.
4 MR. STAMP: Very well.
5 I received an email while I was on my feet, and I am trying to
6 recover it. It is in respect to the witness -- I think we should go in
7 closed session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Private session.
9 MR. STAMP: Yes, it's an application for protective measures.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We are still in open session at this moment. Could
11 we please change into private session.
12 [Private session]
13 Page 5288 – redacted – private session
13 Page 5289 – redacted – private session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you're standing. Please tell us what
7 you'd like to bring to our attention.
8 MR. STAMP: I had indicated and I think the witness had said that
9 photographs were by taken by one witness, and I had indicated that we
10 intended to tender it later. My friend asked for copies of these
11 photographs, which I will give to them, and I have asked if they would
12 object if we would tender it now. And my friend indicated he would
13 consult and let us know. I was wondering if there would be any objection
14 to us putting this in.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic, I don't know who
16 I have to address.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank you
18 for handing us the floor. The Defence is absolutely agreeable with the
19 fact that the pictures be placed on the ELMO.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there are no objections from Defence. Perhaps I
22 would wait until the examination-in-chief has been finished in order to
23 give guidance, especially the Defence as far as the admission into
24 evidence of the document is concerned. Yes, please proceed, and I'll give
25 you our decision later.
1 MR. STAMP: With the leave of the Court, could the witness be
2 shown the folder marked P2172. And the Court be given copies of that
3 folder, as well as P2172.1.
4 Q. Could you have a look at the front page of that folder. At the
5 bottom of that folder in the middle, there is a name. Please do not tell
6 us the name, but do you recognise the name?
7 A. Yes, it is [redacted]--
8 Q. Sorry, sorry. Do not say the name.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp, I do agree with you, but on the other
10 hand, you should have taken the precaution. It's on the ELMO, so it's not
11 only the witness who could read it.
12 MR. STAMP: I was not aware that it was put on the ELMO.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It was on the ELMO. I'm not aware who gave the
14 instructions to do that. On the other hand, it was -- I tried to read it
15 on the ELMO. But without zooming in, I didn't manage to do so because it
16 was quite vague. So I...
17 MR. STAMP: May I just ask immediately if the name...
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: It will be redacted. Let's not take a risk whether
20 it was readable or not. Just for certainty we'll have it redacted, both
21 the video and the -- I don't know whether the answer was --
22 MR. STAMP: He began to say a name.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So let's redact that as well, yes.
24 Please proceed. Perhaps I'll explain to Mr. Sabljica. There are
25 other witnesses of whom the name is never mentioned in this courtroom.
1 All the parties know who it is, and you might have understood by now who
2 is one of those witnesses. So we try to avoid that his name is on the
3 screen and that someone mentions his name. Would you please keep that in
4 mind so that these measures taken in respect of those forthcoming
5 witnesses will be effective.
6 Yes. I fully understand that you're not aware of this system, and
7 therefore I explained it to you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Now, the name which you recognised is the name of a criminal
11 technician who photographed the site of the incident of the 22nd of
12 January, 1994?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I would just like to
17 inform the Chamber that my colleagues did not have the intention to
18 show -- to submit this document. I have a list of witnesses who are
19 projected for the period for the 6th to 15th of March, and on this list of
20 witnesses I do not see my colleagues wish to tender into evidence the
21 document 2172. As for the witness who is here on the stand, we have the
22 Document 2247, 2345, and 2309. If they intended that that be Mr. Q --
23 2347, correction. And so if the document 2172 was to be tendered into
24 evidence, we do not see that document on the list.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you...
1 MR. STAMP: I am not quite sure if we did indicate what exhibits
2 would be -- or we would propose to tender through the Witness AI --
3 Witness Q. I don't think we have listed Witness Q as yet. I see my
4 friend nodding. I don't know.
5 JUDGE ORIE: On my list of the 8th of March, Witness Q does not
6 yet appear.
7 MR. STAMP: And Witness Q is the witness to whom this document
8 would have been tendered through.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is the objection such that you say that you
10 withdraw your consent to show the photographs to the witness, or do you
11 think you could proceed?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we may proceed.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, and my learned friend.
16 Q. Could we just go quickly through these photographs. Have a look
17 at photograph number 1. Do you see an arrow on that photograph?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you say what it points to?
20 MR. STAMP: Please stop.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please put
23 this picture on the ELMO so that we can see what the picture is.
24 MR. STAMP: Indeed, indeed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although I understand you have got a copy by
1 now? It is on the ELMO at this moment, but I understand that -- I can't
2 imagine that you were not prepared and did not have this set of
3 photographs with you at this very moment. You have not been provided with
4 an extra copy at this moment?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we did have
6 illegible copies, copies that were not that clear. But that those
7 concerned another witness, Witness Q or AI or EI, I do not who it is any
8 more according to the two versions and the confusion. But we have now
9 received these pictures in colour. They are before us. What we would ask
10 is that in future, the Defence is not asked to prepare at the last minute,
11 if you will, because it is not possible. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I fully agree. I thank you. I have expressed the
13 Chamber's gratitude for your cooperation, and I'm certain that Mr. Stamp
14 is aware that this kind of surprise could create a lot of problems for the
16 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President. Just for the record, the
17 Defence received these colour copies last year. For the record, they were
18 not at the surprise of the Defence. We would not proceed this way if the
19 Defence did not object. We could, as intended, tender these through
20 another witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we agreed to do this this way, and I thank the
22 Defence for their flexibility.
23 MR. STAMP: I thank them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. Quickly, if we may, what does the arrow in picture number 1 point
3 A. The arrow points the impact point where the shell fell on
4 Cetinjska number 3 Street.
5 Q. And that is on a road, an asphalt traffic lane?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is photograph number 2 depicting the same impact site from the
8 opposite angle?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Photograph number 3, does it show more closely the explosion marks
11 on the asphalt surface?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you see drawn across that photograph -- not drawn. Do you see
14 across that photograph a yellow line or object?
15 A. It is a metre that is actually in the shape of a ribbon, and it is
16 in the possession of the crime scene technician, measuring tape.
17 Q. Did you use that tape to measure the fragment marks on the ground?
18 A. Yes, the measuring tape is part of --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm very sorry
20 to interrupt, but I am seeing that now questions are being posed or asked
21 regarding questions, but the Defence would like to ask that these pictures
22 be shown to General Galic. We were not able to do so, and this is because
23 we would like to obtain some instructions from our client as to the
24 topography. I have seen for instance on a previous picture a backdrop,
25 and frankly I must tell you that I do not know at all where that is. But
1 General Galic probably knows where this picture was taken. So we have to
2 consult our client, and it is a job of the Defence to do so.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You have one coloured copy or two or -- I think
4 you've got one?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We only have one copy, of
6 course. It is the copy that we have received.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a second copy available? Otherwise I would
8 even share with one of my colleagues. But if there's another colour copy
9 available, it could be given to the Defence so that General Galic is --
10 has an opportunity to look at them.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you,
13 Mr. President. May I consult General Galic for just five seconds. I
14 would like to show him some important points.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hope that I
19 did not take up too much of your time. Thank you for this -- for allowing
20 me this interruption.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course under the circumstances I would grant
22 you even a bit more than five seconds.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Yes, you had indicated that this yellow line is a measuring tape
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 which you used to measure the traces. Have a look at photograph number 4,
2 please. And that is a photograph of fresh blood traces in the snow?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have a look at photograph 5, please. Do you see an arrow in that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us what it points to.
8 A. The arrow points to the impact point on the curb in front of the
9 street Klare Zetkin number 4.
10 Q. And is photograph number 6 a close-up shot of the previous
11 photograph, or of photograph number 5?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you have a look at photograph number 7, please. What does
14 that photograph depict, can you say?
15 A. This photograph depicts traces of blood and of human tissue on a
16 sleigh where kids were -- the kids were using for sleigh riding.
17 Q. And could you have a look at photograph number 8, please. Could
18 you tell us quickly what that photograph depicts.
19 A. It's a hat of a kid. It's sort of a cap belonging to a kid, and
20 we can see also traces of blood in the snow.
21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sabljica.
22 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further in chief, may it please you,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.
25 One moment, please.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving leave to the Defence to cross-examine
3 the witness, I'd like to tell the parties what this Chamber intends to
4 decide on the admission of document P2171. It goes without saying that
5 the Chamber is very unhappy to be confronted with a document which is in
6 some part not legible. But we have to see whether this document is
7 admissible in evidence. What we see, as a matter of fact, is that the
8 document is not legible on the first few lines of the second page. These
9 lines are part of a segment of the document which seems to deal with one
10 shelling incident, where the other parts of the document refer to other
11 shelling incidents. When considering whether this document would be
12 admissible in evidence, the Chamber has given consideration to what the
13 probative value of this document could be. And we make -- we distinguish
14 between two possible probative-value elements: The first is the
15 existence, as such, of a report in relation to three shelling incidents.
16 That would mean that the report, as such, as a whole, would be admissible
17 for that probative purposes.
18 The second aspect is the content of the document on each of these
19 shelling incidents. The Chamber feels that although some parts of the --
20 I would say the second paragraph, at least, the report on the second
21 shelling incident are legible, that they are related in their context to
22 other parts of this same paragraph.
23 The Chamber finally will decide if the Prosecution persists in
24 tendering this document that from page 1, we might attribute probative
25 value to the whole page with the exception of the last two lines, and the
1 last word of the third line from the bottom. That is, "tragove." That's
2 the first word, and then the last two lines. We'll not consider the first
3 paragraph of the second page of which the last word reads: "zevot," as
4 having any probative value as far as the content of the document is
5 concerned. However, the last paragraph, again, dealing with, as it says
6 in the translation, the third shell, will be taken into consideration by
7 the Chamber as to its probative value.
8 This also means that as far as the translation is concerned,
9 Mr. Stamp, that we do not admit into evidence the translation as it is now
10 in Document P2171.1, because especially the paragraph of which the first
11 lines reads: "Inspection of the site in front of number 4 Klare Zetkin
12 Street" is as far as the content of the document is concerned only
13 admissible in relation to the first sentence and not to the rest. The
14 Chamber feels that whatever has been translated is a translation of what
15 the translator has speculated to be the original text. And as I just
16 explained to you, whatever follows in the same paragraph is in its context
17 related to the aforegoing, so therefore we'll not admit that as far as the
18 content of the document is concerned.
19 So the Prosecution is invited to provide a translation of the
20 document, but only in respect of those parts which we would consider as
21 far as the content of the document is concerned. That means the first
22 sentence of the paragraph starting with the "Inspection of the site in
23 front of number 4 Klare Zetkin Street and Koncara at the shell or third
24 shell." It's not a third shell. The translation says "The shell impacted
25 with the curb between the traffic lane and the sidewalk." The first
1 sentence is still to be considered by the Chamber. All the rest of this
2 paragraph will not be considered. So in order to prevent us to read any
3 speculative translations, would you please tender, then, as far as the
4 translation is concerned, a translation without the remaining part, and
5 perhaps start again with the last paragraph of the document.
6 MR. STAMP: We'll do.
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, I would like to say that according
8 to my opinion, we should admit the whole first page until the last word.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: We have a difference. Of course, my colleague
11 decided it another way.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. The first page, I mentioned it.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: I will endeavour to have the document --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: As it pleases you, Mr. President, we will endeavour to
18 have the document translated in the manner which you ordered. May I
19 just ask if we may have liberty to make application in the future if
20 perchance we may obtain a better copy of this document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The reasons why we do not admit it at this very
22 moment is that we have been presented with a copy which is illegible. Of
23 course that is the very fundament of our decision. So if another document
24 would turn up, then of course we would think by ourselves why it has not
25 been possible to come up with a legible copy before which would have saved
1 us a lot of time. But of course we'll consider the admissibility of this
3 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
5 objects to this categorically. Because if I don't know by what magic a
6 more clear text is presented to us --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whenever the Prosecution comes up
8 with a legible copy and tenders it into evidence, you'll have a full
9 opportunity to object against tendering that document at that time.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, I'm grateful to
11 the Chamber.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Then is it Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin who is going to
14 cross-examine the witness?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we had an
16 unsigned statement for this witness, we still do not have the shrapnel,
17 that we received the photographs very late as you know, we would like you
18 to ask if we could conduct this cross-examination in two parts, first by
19 Ms. Pilipovic, and then by your servant.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sabljica, good morning.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Can you confirm for us that on the 19th of November, 1995, you
25 gave a statement to the OTP investigators?
1 A. I did.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, I'm going to tell you right away that
3 since you're speaking the same language, there's a major risk of speeding
4 up questions, answers. Would you please look at your screen, wait until
5 the text stops moving. That means that it has been translated, and only
6 then answer the question. I'm certain that I'll have to remind you now
7 and then to this rule. But otherwise the translators cannot follow us.
8 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you signed that statement. Did you confirm with
11 your signature that what the statement says is what you said on the 19th
12 of November, 1995?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if after you made this statement you
15 had some other interviews with OTP representatives?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how many times and when?
18 A. Two more times. The last time being in November last year.
19 Before that, I don't really remember.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if during those interviews, you also
21 signed statements that you gave to the investigators, or were those only
23 A. I signed those statements.
24 Q. Thank you. And in November when you spoke with OTP investigators,
25 did you also sign a document which was done by OTP investigators?
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that you had lived in
3 Sarajevo in 1992, 1993, 1994, and before that. I believe you said that
4 you were born in Sarajevo.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us in what part of the town did you live, which
8 A. I lived in the Novo Sarajevo, in the municipality of Novo
9 Sarajevo, street Bratsno-Jedinsno Street, number 9.
10 Q. Thank you. You told us that the 28th of April, 1992, you joined
11 the Territorial Defence. Is that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. Did you become a member of the Territorial Defence of your own
14 free will, or was there a mobilisation?
15 A. I did it of my own free will. There was no mobilisation yet at
16 that time.
17 Q. Can you answer, where was the headquarters of the Territorial
18 Defence? Where did you have to report?
19 A. As a member of the Territorial Defence, in the compound of the
20 factory Vaso Miskin Crni, there was a building on the premises that we
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
23 like to show the witness the map that the witness already has so that we
24 can work more efficiently. And we would like him to mark the site of the
25 Territorial Defence headquarters and the street.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, I see you are presenting
2 Document 3644.MS to the witness.
3 Mr. Usher, the witness has a black pen. Mr. Sabljica, whenever
4 Ms. Pilipovic asks you to mark something, you'll now use a black pen to
5 distinguish these markings from the markings you made on the request of
6 the Prosecution.
7 A. [Marks].
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you be more precise as to the location of that
10 little cross. Will you please explain it to us so that we could have in
11 the transcript the name of the street and --
12 A. It is Kolodvorska Street.
13 Q. And the number, if you know it?
14 A. I believe it is BB. No number, because it is within the factory
15 compound, on the factory grounds.
16 Q. So for the transcript, the witness identified the location of the
17 headquarters of the Territorial Defence in Novo Sarajevo which was on the
18 grounds of the Vaso Miskin Crni factory.
19 In Kolodvorska?
20 A. Yes, currently Kolodvorska Street, without number, that was
21 previously Darovalaca Kvi, that is Blood Donors Street.
22 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you please tell us if as a member of the
23 Territorial Defence, were you issued with a weapon?
24 A. Yes. When I went to the defence line.
25 Q. Can you confirm for us whether the command post of the Territorial
1 Defence was there, and that members of the Territorial Defence of the Novo
2 Sarajevo municipality were duty-bound to report to the building where this
3 command post to be given their assignments of the Territorial Defence
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Can you tell us how many members were there in the Territorial
7 Defence of the Novo Sarajevo municipality? What was the response?
8 A. I can only speak about my neighbourhood community.
9 Q. Well, can you then tell us what was the strength, what was the
10 response and how many members, that is, able-bodied men, who had reported?
11 A. The neighbourhood community Bratsno-Jedinso, brotherhood unity,
12 had about 270 [sic] men.
13 Q. These 280 men that were part of the -- that made up the
14 Territorial Defence of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo in the
15 neighbourhood community of Bratsno-Jedinso, can you tell us how many of
16 them were armed?
17 A. We had only about ten rifles or so.
18 Q. Can you answer for us whether your neighbourhood community
19 Bratsno-Jedinso had its own headquarters?
20 A. It was in the same building.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, how did you, as a member of the
22 Territorial Defence, and all the other members, how were you dressed? Did
23 you have uniforms, did you all have them, or was it on an individual
25 A. 90 per cent of us did not have any uniforms and we wore civilian
2 Q. Did you have some kind of identification to show that you were
3 members of the Territorial Defence?
4 A. The coat of arms of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was
5 a patch that we sewed on to the sleeves of our shirts.
6 Q. You told us that your neighbourhood community was the
7 neighbourhood community Bratsno-Jedinso, and you had about 280 men who
8 reported to the Territorial Defence. Can you tell us how many
9 neighbourhood communities are there in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo?
10 A. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question.
11 Q. Amongst the members of the Territorial Defence, were there any
13 A. Well, unless we count cooks, then there weren't any.
14 Q. Can you tell us if in your municipality, within your Territorial
15 Defence, there were any military formations commanded and led by
16 individuals and which operated within the Territorial Defence
17 headquarters? Do you have any knowledge about that? When I say "military
18 formations," I mean paramilitary formations acting within the Territorial
20 A. We only communicated with members of the Ministry of the
21 Interior. I don't know which paramilitary formations you have in mind.
22 Q. Specifically I mean paramilitary formation under the command of
23 Juka Prazina.
24 A. In our territory, the members of his unit did not come to our
1 Q. When you say they did not come to your territory, do you have any
2 knowledge as to the area in which the paramilitary formation commanded by
3 Juka Prazina operated?
4 A. I think it was Novi Grad, by and large.
5 Q. Can you tell us, where was the command post of that paramilitary
6 unit in Novi Grad?
7 A. I really don't know.
8 Q. Can you tell us, can you confirm to us, whether the units of the
9 patriotic league also operated within the Territorial Defence, so-called
10 green berets?
11 A. In Novo Sarajevo, none, as far as I know.
12 Q. And do you have any knowledge regarding other parts of the city of
13 Sarajevo, if units called green berets operated there, at that time,
14 specifically I mean in 1992 and the time when you became a member of the
15 Territorial Defence?
16 A. I know about the territory, municipality, of Stari Grad.
17 Q. Can you answer, where in the territory of the municipality of
18 Stari Grad was the command post of the green berets and how were they
19 dressed? How were the members of green berets dressed? Did they have
21 A. Where their headquarters was, I really don't know. And some of
22 them did have uniforms; the majority, however, wore civilian clothes. All
23 they had was those green berets as their head gear.
24 Q. Did members of the green berets, and you tell us they could be
25 identified by the green berets on their heads, did they carry any weapons?
1 A. When they went to the defence line, I suppose they did carry
3 Q. Members of the green berets in the Stari Grad municipality, how
4 many people were there? How many members of the green berets there were?
5 A. I really don't know.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, in April and May, 1992, and also in 1993, as
7 a member of the Territorial Defence, did you take part in any fighting?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us when and in which parts of the town?
10 A. From April 1992 up until the end of July the same year, between
11 the economic school and the Bristol Hotel near the power distribution
12 company, that is the area where we held the line.
13 Q. Mr. Sabljica, would you be so kind and indicate for us on the map
14 where the line was, where you said fighting took place between April and
15 July 1992.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Mr. Sabljica, the line that you have marked, is it a street in the
18 town so that we can be precise for the record, if you know?
19 A. Vilsonovo Setaliste Wilson's Boulevard, all the way up to the
20 electriva [phoen], that is the power distribution company, alongside the
21 Miljacka River.
22 Q. When you say fighting was going on between April and July 1992,
23 can you tell us how frequent that fighting was? Was it on a daily basis
24 or every other day or once in three or four days?
25 A. There was daily shooting going on, daily squirmishes, if I may say
2 Q. Can you tell us when it was that your unit of the Territorial
3 Defence was subordinated to the Supreme Command? That is, when did it
4 become part of the BH army?
5 A. Sometime in mid-July, 1992.
6 Q. Are you telling us that as a member of the Territorial Defence, as
7 of mid-July 1992, you became a member of the BH army? And if this is
8 correct, can you tell us which military formation -- under which military
9 formation your Territorial Defence unit came?
10 A. I believe that at the time, it was called the 2nd Motorised
12 Q. The 2nd Motorised Brigade whose member you were, how many men did
13 it have? What was the strength of this brigade?
14 A. I don't know the exact number.
15 Q. Can you tell us how many battalions it had?
16 A. Four or five, I think, but I'm not sure.
17 Q. And to which military formation did you belong? You were a member
18 of this brigade, but where was the command of your unit and was it a
19 company, a battalion, or a detachment?
20 A. It was a company which grew out of the Territorial Defence unit of
21 the Bratsno-Jedinso neighbourhood community.
22 Q. This company whose origin was this local unit, that is the
23 Territorial Defence unit of the Bratsno-Jedinso local commune, how strong
24 was it? How many troops did it have?
25 A. After it became part of the BH army, it counted about 150 troops.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you indicated for us the positions and the locations
2 where fighting took place between April and July 1992 on the map. Can you
3 now tell us where the positions of your unit were, of your company, that
4 is, and where its command post was located?
5 A. The positions were in front of the building of the economic
6 school, in the vicinity of the Bristol Hotel, somewhere in front of the
7 engineering school. And the headquarters was at the same location where
8 the Territorial Defence headquarters used to be, that is, within the
9 compound of the Vase Miskin Crne factory.
10 Q. Sir, can you tell us where the command post of the four battalions
11 which made up the 2nd Motorised Brigade were?
12 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: -- do we have evidence -- it might have missed
15 me -- that there were four battalions in this brigade or is that something
16 which is coming from my friend?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in seeing that a question has been put to
18 the witness, can you tell us how many battalions it had. And the question
19 was about the 2nd Motorised Brigade, and the answer was four or five. But
20 I'm not sure.
21 MR. STAMP: Yes, it has just been pointed out to me.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you, therefore, tell us where the command posts
24 of these four battalions which were part of the 2nd Motorised Brigade
1 A. I really don't know. I was a simple soldier.
2 Q. On this map where you indicated the line where the fighting was
3 going on, can you point to the building of the power distribution company,
4 the Bristol Hotel, and the economic school. And if it's convenient,
5 would you please mark it with numbers starting with number 1, just tell us
6 what building you're indicating.
7 A. I've just marked with number 1 the building of the Bristol
9 Number 2 stands for faculty of engineering.
10 And number 3, that is, the circle in between, is the economic
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps zoom in. It's hardly visible for
13 us, especially the spot where the markings have been made. Perhaps you
14 move it, Mr. Usher, to the centre of the screen, and then if it's zoomed
15 in. Even a bit more to the centre. It's now out of our screens. Could
16 you please move it. Yes, a bit more, please.
17 Yes. That's clear to us.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked
19 with number 1 the location where the Bristol Hotel was; number 2, the
20 economic school --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. The faculty of
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, Witness.
24 And number 3, the economics school.
25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, in this area where you said the positions of the
1 army were, is the building of the power distribution company located in
2 the vicinity?
3 A. Yes, it's on the same said, but I don't see it here.
4 Q. Very well. In -- from June 1992 up until June 1993 when you said
5 you left the BH army, as a member of this company, did you take part in
6 any fighting?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us where the positions of your company were located,
9 the one that was part of the 2nd Motorised Brigade, and in what parts of
10 town you fought? I am referring to the period between July 1992 and June
12 A. In the area of Hrasno Brdo, but I cannot recall the names of the
13 streets. As far as I'm concerned, that part of the town was just the
14 outskirts of the city.
15 Q. How frequent was this fighting during that period of time?
16 A. There was shooting, squirmishes and shelling from the positions of
17 the VRS every other day, every three or four days or so.
18 Q. Could you indicate for us on this map where the front line ran in
19 that period of time.
20 A. I couldn't draw the exact line, however I could perhaps encircle
21 the overall area, the area of Hrasno Brdo, because I don't seem to be able
22 to find my bearings in this part of the town very well.
23 Q. Yes, please do so, Witness.
24 A. [Marks].
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Mr. Sabljica has
1 indicated with a circle the area of Hrasno Brdo. I should like to ask him
2 to mark the circle with an X.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Witness, you have encircled the area of Hrasno Brdo, the Hrasno
5 hill, are you telling us that the positions -- both positions of the VRS
6 and the positions of BH army were in this area?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you now tell us where the residential area of Hrasno was
9 located and under whose control that area was, since it was below the
10 Hrasno hill?
11 A. It was under the BH army control.
12 Q. Could you please make a circle around the residential area of
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Can you mark the Hrasno neighbourhood.
16 A. [Marks].
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, next to the circle
18 which the witness marked with an X as being the area of the Hrasno hill,
19 there is a circle indicating the residential area of Hrasno which was
20 under the BH army control.
21 Q. Witness, the Hrasno neighbourhood which was under the BH army
22 control, what military unit was deployed in this residential area of
24 A. The same one, that is, the 2nd Motorised.
25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, could you mark on this map where the positions of
1 the VRS were and also with respect to Hrasno, where exactly the fighting
2 took place and the squirmishes that you said were, according to your
3 opinion, almost a daily occurrence?
4 A. I'm really not in a position to indicate precisely where they
5 were, but we were not far apart in this area. One street was under the BH
6 army control, and then the next one would be under the VRS control and so
7 on and so forth.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.
9 You said you took part in the fighting in the area of Hrasno Brdo
10 that you indicated for us on the map. How long did you remain at the
11 front line? Where was the soldiers quartered? And where did they take
13 A. We worked in two-hour shifts, that is, you would be at the front
14 line for two hours, and then we were off for two hours. We stayed mainly
15 in the houses situated right below the front line, maybe some 50 metres
16 below the front line, and that is where we took our meals.
17 Q. You said you stayed in partly demolished houses. How many such
18 houses were there, and did all BH army members stay in those houses when
19 off duty?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
21 MR. STAMP: It's not on objection, it's just a clarification
22 again. It might have missed. I can't recall the witness saying "partly
23 demolished houses." It might have missed me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, it also struck me that you said
25 that the witness said he stayed in partly demolished houses. Did he say
1 this in B/C/S? Because it's not in the translation.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said "in
3 destroyed houses."
4 Q. Mr. Sabljica, correct me if I am wrong.
5 A. Yes, you're right.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So such houses can be totally
7 demolished or partly demolished.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly demolished houses.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now I believe we have
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that as a member of the Territorial
14 Defence, at the beginning of the conflict, you operated together with the
15 MUP units. Am I correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What MUP units were those? Were their members armed, and how?
18 A. They belonged to the police of the former SUP, of the former BH
19 SUP, precisely the Novo Sarajevo municipality SUP, and they were armed
20 with automatic rifles. They wore uniforms which belonged to the former
21 Yugoslav police.
22 Q. Is it your testimony that together with the members of the police,
23 you took part in the fighting going on between April and July 1992?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us where the police headquarters were located during
1 that period of time in the Novo Sarajevo municipality?
2 A. I really don't know.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you perhaps tell us whether the members of the
4 MUP, as of the establishment of the BH army, that is, mid-July 1992 also
5 took part in the fighting together with you, that is, members of the 2nd
6 Motorised Brigade? Did they also fight with that brigade?
7 A. No, not any more.
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge that the police unit under the command
9 of Dr. Kemal Loncarevic also operated in the area of Novo Sarajevo at that
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is it that you don't know, or that it did not operate there?
13 A. No, I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that in June 1993, you
15 transferred to the police and started working there. Can you tell us what
16 the reason of your transfer from the BH army to the MUP was?
17 A. The reason of my transfer was the possibility for me to do my job
18 with the police as a professional, because this is the kind of degree that
19 I had. They were looking for a mechanical engineer.
20 Q. You told us that your profession was mechanical engineer. Was
21 there a chair for ballistics at the university where you took your degree?
22 A. There was a department for rocket science, but I don't know
23 whether they specifically had a source in ballistics.
24 Q. During your studies, were you aware of the fact that ballistics is
25 an autonomous science as such?
1 A. Well, yes, I was. But at that time I wasn't so interested in it.
2 Q. To what extent did you obtain your knowledge at the university?
3 I'm referring specifically to your knowledge of ballistics. Did you
4 specifically study ballistics at the university?
5 A. No, not at the university. I gained some general knowledge in
6 mathematics, physics and mechanics which I later applied in my work.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you could find in the next few
8 moments a suitable place to interrupt your cross-examination so that we
9 could have a break.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 Q. When you were employed by the MUP because of your university
12 degree, to what post were you allocated? What was the title of the post?
13 A. In the decision that I received from the MUP, the title of the
14 post was "ballistics expert," "ballistics and mechanical traces expert"
15 that is.
16 Q. So it was thanks to your degree in mechanical engineering that you
17 were employed by the MUP as a ballistics and mechanical traces expert?
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is the
20 convenient time for a break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed the cross-examination
25 of Mr. Sabljica.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you told us before the break that a decision that
3 enabled you to work at the MUP, you were accepted there as an expert in
4 mechanical traces expert. Is that true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us, in order to be called a mechanical traces expert,
7 do you need to complete the -- to graduate from a faculty of mechanics and
8 to have completed your -- to actually follow any mechanical courses at the
10 A. No, the prerequisite was to obtain a degree from a faculty of
12 Q. In order to obtain the title of a ballistics expert, what do you
13 need to have? Did you have to have finished the faculty of mechanics
14 department of ballistics, the mechanical engineering faculty?
15 A. I really don't know at the time what was the prerequisite, but I
16 was accepted because I had completed the faculty of techniques, because my
17 professors, the professors who taught ballistics were also electrical
18 engineers and mechanical engineers.
19 Q. Could you please confirm to us whether at the time you were
20 employed, did you have any knowledge with regards to ballistics and how
21 much knowledge did you have, or perhaps you did not have any knowledge at
22 all in this field?
23 A. Well, my knowledge in that field was quite limited.
24 Q. At the time you were employed, you were a trainee? Were you
25 accepted there as a trainee? And if so, how long was your training
2 A. Yes, and it lasted six months.
3 Q. During that six-month training period, what duties and chores did
4 you do as a trainee?
5 A. I had to be present during investigations and during the
6 investigations, particularly to shelling incidents. I was to examine
7 traces that occurred after breaking and entering, on cylindrical holes and
8 traces that occurred after firing, after a fire, after somebody had shot
9 from a firearm, during blood crimes. So I did not sign any reports during
10 the first six months since those were -- since this was actually just part
11 of my training period, as a trainee. I never worked alone. I was always
12 worked under the supervision of elder colleagues, or, if you will,
14 Q. You tell us, therefore, that you followed a six-month training
15 course. After the six-month period, did you have to take a test?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, six months and
18 not six years for the transcript.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That the French? Yes, six-month. It appears in
21 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
22 A. No, I did not have to take an exam at all.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. During your work at the MUP, did you obtain the qualification of a
25 ballistics expert after taking an exam?
1 A. I told you that I did not have to take an exam, and I never
2 obtained any written document as to my qualifications.
3 Q. Thank you. You told us that during the first six months you were
4 present during investigations, during shelling incidents, during sniping
5 incidents and breaking and entering as well. During that period, that is
6 to say, your training period, were you always on the same team or did the
7 team change? Was there actually teamwork at the MUP level?
8 A. We always worked as a team, and we always worked in one team. And
9 I would usually go to the scene of the crime with my senior colleague, my
10 mentor. He was a crime-scene technician. I would also go with the
11 investigating magistrate and the experts that worked, operatives that
12 worked for the homicides.
13 Q. Can you tell us, where was the building in which you worked?
14 A. It was the building of the former Centre of Public Security, CSB.
15 And today, it is the building of the MUP.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of the
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You tell us that it was the centre that covered the whole Sarajevo
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again,
23 it's street La Benevolencija. I heard the street pronounced by the
24 witness, and that street is not in the transcript. And we would like the
25 witness to repeat the name of the street, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that was the request of the
2 interpreters' booth as well.
3 Could you please repeat the name of the street in which the
4 building was you worked in.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the Street was La
6 Benevolencija That is the name that the street has today.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Sir, could you please tell us on the map or show us on the map
9 where was the building in which you worked during the conflict took place
10 in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993, and 1994?
11 A. I will try to do so.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
13 indicated by marking a circle around an X the place where the building of
14 the CSB of Sarajevo was situated.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We have so many circles with X's in it at this very
16 moment. Could you please, Ms. Pilipovic, be a bit more precise.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the circle with the X
18 is under or in the area of Sarajevo under Mejtas, those words. I think
19 that for the transcript, that is sufficient, I believe.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I identified the spot.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that during the six-month training
23 period you went to carry out on-site investigations. You actually went to
24 visit the scene of the crime. How many on-site investigations did you
25 attend when we talk about sniping and shelling incidents during that first
1 six-month period?
2 A. It is a little difficult to say, but altogether, I will attempt to
3 give you an estimate figure. I believe that altogether, I must have gone
4 to about 20 on-site investigations. Since at the very beginning, the team
5 was going to visit the scene whenever there was a larger shelling
6 incident, independently of the fact whether there were casualties or not.
7 Afterwards, this practice was stopped, and we would only go to carry out
8 on-site investigations if there was one or more casualties.
9 Q. When you talk about later on this practice was stopped, could you
10 tell us at what point did you -- was this practice carried out? When did
11 they start doing this and when?
12 A. It was right after my training period, the six-month training
13 period that I already mentioned, so we're talking about the winter of
14 1993. And the practice was stopped because sometimes we would go to the
15 site, the scene of the crime, and that area was still under heavy
16 shelling. So it would happen that colleagues were injured and our lives
17 were at stake.
18 Q. May I correct you. When you talked about 1993, you must have
19 talked about 1994, since you started working in 1993.
20 A. Well, it was in the winter of 1993 actually, because I started
21 working in July --
22 Q. You're talking about 1993, right?
23 A. The beginning of 1994, we can say that, yes.
24 Q. So during those 20 on-site investigations that you attended during
25 your six-month training, can you tell us how many sniping incidents did
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you investigate and how many shelling incidents did you investigate, or
2 are you also talking about other on-site investigations other than the two
3 above-mentioned situations?
4 A. I'm only talking to you about shelling and sniping incidents. I
5 could not give you the exact figure, but maybe 20 per cent of
6 investigations were carried out regarding shelling. And the rest was with
7 regards to sniping incidents.
8 Q. In 1994, can you tell us how many on-site investigations did you
9 carry out from the month of September 1994? Could you give us an
10 approximate figure?
11 A. Approximately 30.
12 MR. STAMP: May I just ask for a clarification. The question I
13 have recorded here is: "Approximately how many on-site investigations did
14 you carry out from the month of September?" Is that the question as you
15 have it, during 1994, "How many on-site investigations you carried out
16 from the month of September?"
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be possible for you to phrase the question
18 in such a way that everyone understand what is meant.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. As of January 1994 up until the end of August 1994.
21 A. About 30 on-site investigations.
22 Q. When you talk about those 30 on-site investigations that you
23 carried out during that period of time, were those mainly on-site
24 investigations with regards to sniping incidents or shelling incidents?
25 A. For the most part, those were on-site investigations regarding
1 shelling incidents.
2 Q. Mr. Sabl -- Sabljica, can you tell us, since you told us you
3 investigated mainly shelling incidents, can you explain to us in what part
4 of the city this was? Where did you carry out the most part of your
5 on-site investigations?
6 A. It's very difficult to tell you, but we were acting on the whole
7 territory. We would go to all parts of the city, so I couldn't really
8 tell you what part of the city was more involved.
9 Q. During your on-site investigations, were you always accompanied by
10 a magistrate judge and did you always draft a report?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us, when we talk about these records of
13 investigations signed by the magistrate or for which the magistrate was
14 present, were those sent to the Tribunal?
15 A. It's very difficult to say, because at the end of our
16 investigation, we would always give it to the forensic department in order
17 to complete the report. Now who would bring that, the investigating
18 magistrate, I don't know.
19 Q. During the on-site investigations for which you were present --
20 and now I'm going to be talking about the period of time while you were a
21 trainee and also I'll be talking about the period that begins with 1994
22 and up until the end of August -- were there any members of the
23 United Nations, any UNMOs present?
24 A. Not always, but they were present from time to time.
25 Q. How often were the UNMO members with regards to the on-site
1 investigations that you -- for which you were present, how often were they
2 present? How many times did they come?
3 A. About 30 per cent of the times in relation to all the on-site
4 investigations that I had to carry out from January until August 1994.
5 Q. When the United Nations' members were not with you, can you tell
6 us if the members of the United Nations were informed of the incidents,
7 whether shelling or sniping incidents, while you were carrying out the
9 A. Believe me when I tell you that I do not know.
10 Q. Do you know that your -- do you know if in your department there
11 was somebody who was in charge to get in contact with United Nations'
12 representatives and to inform them of incidents that took place, whether
13 it's shelling incidents or sniping incidents?
14 A. I do not know this.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sabljica, when you would go to visit the scene
16 with your team, and when you were carrying your on-site investigations,
17 were you only doing those on-site investigations for the parts of the town
18 that were under the control of the BiH army?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You, as a member of the team, did you take part in on-site
21 investigations that took place outside of the city, that is, in the areas
22 that were still under the control of the army of the BH?
23 A. No, only for the city of Sarajevo.
24 Q. Did you investigate and did you know that there were some
25 homicides that took place in different parts of the city, and would you
1 also do on-site investigations for those types of crimes?
2 A. No. When this would happen, we would only examine traces from the
3 scene crime, either parts of the bullets or other pieces that were
4 communicated to us.
5 Q. When you were working and when you were going to on-site
6 investigation -- to the site, did you also carry out investigations in the
7 areas that were not under the control of the army of the BiH?
8 A. I did not really understand your question well.
9 Q. When you were working at the CSB and when you were working as an
10 expert, as a member of the team, did you go to visit the crime scene when
11 people would get killed, either from a homicide incident or because of a
12 shelling incident on parts of the city that were under the control of the
13 army of BiH? I'm going to ask you first for the sniping incidents. Did
14 you ever participate to on-site investigations when somebody was killed
15 from a sniping fire in the areas that were under the control of the army
16 of BiH?
17 A. No.
18 Q. While you were working, were you told that in a part of the town
19 for which you say there was a line, a demarcation line from which you say
20 the Hotel Bristol is there, the school of economics and the faculty of
21 mechanics, you said there were snipers in that area and you said also that
22 that area was under the control of the BiH army?
23 A. You mean to tell me that they were firing on Grbavica?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I did not have any official knowledge of this.
1 Q. How about unofficial information?
2 A. Well, with respect to unofficial information, it was what people
3 were saying -- I don't know if this can be considered as to be valid
4 evidence -- but people were saying all sorts of things.
5 Q. When you talk about all sorts of things, do you also mean that you
6 heard that from those buildings, snipers were shooting?
7 A. Probably, but I do not have any evidence to confirm this.
8 Q. Thank you. During your work as part of the member of the CSB
9 team, do you know if there was a commission that was formed, a commission
10 of teams, on the part of the VRS side and the part of the police that was
11 under the control of the VRS? So do you know if there were mixed
12 commissions that would go to carry out on-site investigations with regards
13 to shelling and sniping incidents?
14 A. I really do not know because we had no contact with the colleagues
15 from the Republika Srpska MUP at the time.
16 Q. During your work as you were employed, did you work in close
17 collaboration with the BiH army? Did they tell you an incident took
18 place? Did they have your reports with regards to incidents in areas
19 where fightings were taking place?
20 A. No, not to us directly, never.
21 Q. You said that during the on-site investigations, you said that you
22 were present during those on-site investigations with regards to shelling
23 and sniping. Other than sniping and shelling incidents, were you also
24 carrying out on-site investigations when, for instance, other weapons were
25 involved, such as canons and so on and so forth?
1 A. Yes, but only during the first six months. So unfortunately, I do
2 not have any written report in which there was an analysis that such a
3 projectile was fired from that type of weapon.
4 Q. Can you confirm to us if the work of a ballistics expert was to
5 determine the direction of fire?
6 A. The direction, the type and the calibre, if possible. As to the
7 origin or the range, never.
8 Q. So only the direction, but not the place from which the projectile
9 was fired and the range?
10 A. No.
11 Q. But we're talking about on-site investigations. Who else was
12 present in the same team? Who was the expert who was to establish the
13 range and origin of fire?
14 A. It was only done on one occasion when we were carrying out an
15 on-site investigation on Markale. The market of Markale. There was an
16 expert witness team, and they carried out that work. But I was not led
17 into this investigation.
18 Q. This team of experts that carried out the on-site investigation at
19 Markale, was that the team that went on site on February 6th? Can you
20 tell us who was a member of that team, who were the members of this team?
21 A. Yes. The investigating magistrate, Zdenko Eterovic, and also a
22 professor from the faculty of mechanics, Mr. Berko Zecevic was present.
23 He actually teaches weaponry at the faculty of mechanics.
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge if on the 6th Professor Berko Zecevic
25 was joined by the late Hamdja Cavcic who was also there on the previous
1 day with you?
2 A. I believe so. I cannot really affirm that. I don't know.
3 Q. I think, but if I misinterpreted you, you will correct me if I am
4 wrong me. You told us that you were not a ballistics man, that it was
5 a -- that you were somebody else?
6 A. That's quite right. We did not go into that.
7 Q. When you say "we," can you explain it in more detail? Does it
8 mean your team?
9 A. Yes, that is the team of ballisticians attached to the Ministry of
10 the Interior.
11 Q. Do you know who determined the impact angle at the Markale market?
12 A. I believe it was professor Berko Zecevic.
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge that on the 6th of February when, as you
14 say, a team headed by Professor Berko Zecevic determined the battle at
15 Markale, do you know if UNPROFOR representatives were present during that
17 A. I really don't know that.
18 Q. That day, when the incident at Markale happened, can you tell us
19 where were you when you received the information about -- that the
20 incident had come to pass?
21 A. In my office at the CSB centre on La Benevolencija Street.
22 Q. When you came out to the scene, can you tell us what you found
23 there, or, that is, what did you find there?
24 A. The scene of the incident was already guarded by policemen from
25 the security station of Stari Grad. There were no casualties or
1 fatalities there. There were very few people in that area, I mean apart
2 from authorised officials, apart from policemen at the time when we got
4 Q. Can you confirm if on your team there was also a person with a
5 videocamera to record the event?
6 A. Yes. It was Zlatan Sadikovic, one of the crime assistants, crime
7 technicians at the centre.
8 Q. When you came out to the scene, was the investigating magistrate
9 with you, and did he tell you what to do?
10 A. Of course. Mr. Asim Kanlic was the magistrate. Without his
11 authorisation, we could not start the investigation.
12 Q. We've had the opportunity to see the video documentation which you
13 also saw. Can you tell us whether you were able to establish what kind of
14 charge did the shell which hit the Markale have?
15 A. No, unfortunately it would be very difficult. And --
16 Q. And can you tell us what kind of shells are there with respect to
17 the charge they carry?
18 A. You mean how many different types of charge can be used with 120
19 millimetre mortars?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Well, it is something that I recollect from the Yugoslav People's
22 Army when I did the service. I think from 0 to 6 charges.
23 Q. When you say 0, does that mean basic charge, and 6 charges?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When it comes to this basic charge and supplementary charge, did
1 you establish what kind of charge did the shell which got to Markale have?
2 A. No. Because we never went into such analysis in our
3 investigations, that is, we never cared about the type of charge used to
4 fire a shell to determine the direction from which it had come.
5 Q. Can you tell us, after when did the -- on the 5th of February when
6 you were a member of the investigating team, when did the team of UNMOs
7 arrive there?
8 A. I don't know exactly when they came, but they came I know because
9 we did not was not to tamper with the stabiliser which was wedged -- which
10 was embedded in the ground until their arrival.
11 Q. Can you tell us, which member of the team was the first one to
12 identify the place which you later identify as the place where the
13 stabiliser was?
14 A. I believe that we identified it jointly. Mr. Sead Besic, the late
15 Cavcic, and I, and Sead cleared the site so that the analysis could be
17 Q. You say that Mr. Besic cleared the site, the site which you
18 identified as the alleged site where the stabiliser of the shell could be
19 found. Did the investigating magistrate authorise this, and is it
20 permissible to clear the site prior to notifying the UNMOs and their team?
21 A. But naturally the investigating magistrate authorised us. I told
22 you already that we never started an investigation without his
23 authorisation, and we didn't know if UNPROFOR would come. We didn't know
24 if they would been informed.
25 Q. So you, your team, did not notify the UNPROFOR team that the
1 incident had come to pass, and you did not request them to join you during
2 the -- in the course of the investigation?
3 A. As far as I know, we never did that on our own, as usually
4 UNPROFOR representatives would be informed by our higher -- by our chiefs
5 in the Ministry of the Interior.
6 Q. Can you tell us who was it that notified UNPROFOR representatives
7 and when so that they could come to Markale market?
8 A. I really don't know.
9 Q. When you say that Mr. Besic cleared the ground, did he clear the
10 site right up to the place where you could see the stabiliser?
11 A. Yes, Mr. Besic used water to wash off blood and tissue at the
12 centre of the shell impact and drew it on asphalt so that we could carry
13 out our investigation.
14 Q. When the UNPROFOR team arrived, had you already determined the
16 A. Yes, and left -- and put the boundary marks there, as you can see
17 on the photograph -- when I'm testifying -- so they could see what method
18 we had used.
19 Q. We had the opportunity to see UNPROFOR members clear the area
20 around the stabiliser. Can you tell us if your photographer recorded the
21 point in time when UNPROFOR members extracted, pulled out, the stabiliser?
22 A. I really don't remember. I know they dug it out, but whether he
23 recorded it or not, I don't remember.
24 Q. Can you tell us if you measured the depth of the crater?
25 A. Yes, but the stabiliser was still there.
1 Q. Can you explain to us, since the stabiliser was, as you tell us,
2 stuck in the ground, how, then, did you measure the depth of the crater?
3 A. We used a ruler, and that makes part of the gear or the equipment
4 of a crime technician.
5 Q. Can you tell us how deep was the crater?
6 A. I think the report says it, 9 centimetres, if I recall it right.
7 Q. Can you answer if you were in a position, and could you take
8 photographs of the crater after the stabiliser was taken out?
9 A. That job is the job of crime technicians so that I cannot really
10 affirm whether Mr. Besic took photographs or not.
11 Q. Can you tell us, when you arrived at the scene, did you notice,
12 did you observe, any fragments, any shrapnel?
13 A. You mean scattered fragments of the shell?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge, that is, did you see anyone pick up
17 those fragments?
18 A. Whenever there is an on-site investigation, the crime assistant,
19 the crime technician, is duty-bound to do that, to collect all the
20 evidence. So Besic and others gathered the evidence on the -- on the
21 site, so presumably they also collected the fragments.
22 Q. When the stabiliser was dug out, could you describe what the
23 crater looked after that, of the place where allegedly the shell had
25 A. Well, it was a hole. It was a cylindrical hole with a diameter
1 corresponding with the tail-fin of the shell, so that it could penetrate
2 to the depth of 9 centimetres. That is as far as my memory serves me.
3 Q. Can you confirm if it is possible at the place hit by a shell, can
4 this central crater be filled with shell fragments or debris of the
5 material that the shell hit?
6 A. You mean to find some foreign body in the crater? Well, there was
7 asphalt and there was sand. That was the structure of the ground hit by
8 the shell.
9 Q. But did you used to find that in other cases of your on-site
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to which one of your associates in
13 the team took away the stabiliser and shrapnel?
14 A. Crime technicians.
15 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether this shrapnel and the
16 stabiliser were photographed?
17 A. The stabiliser, yes, it was. About the shrapnel, I'm not sure.
18 Q. Do you have any knowledge if the stabiliser and fragments were
20 A. Yes. It's always done by our laboratory, by our crime
21 laboratory. They always performed the analysis of the shells to determine
22 the type and so on and so forth. At times, it is not possible to find out
23 the tail of the shell, and then it is more difficult to determine the
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge if the crime laboratory also analysed
1 the stabiliser and fragments or fragments or shrapnel of the shell which
2 allegedly hit Markale?
3 A. I really don't know what they did because they were a department
4 on their own. I mean they were independent of us.
5 Q. Can you tell us who was responsible for that in the Ministry of
6 the Interior and who could assign people to the analysis, to perform the
7 analysis of shrapnel and everything else?
8 A. Well, all the evidence went -- after the evidence was recorded, it
9 was also forwarded for analysis.
10 Q. Who issued orders?
11 A. Well, it was the head of the crime laboratory or somebody else I
12 really don't know.
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge if the crime laboratory also analysed
14 the stabilise and shrapnel of the shell which arrived at Markale?
15 A. No, I have no such knowledge.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge if the on-site investigation at Markale
17 market was also performed by a UN commission?
18 A. Yes, they came after us. As I told you, we put boundary marks,
19 and they pulled out the tail-fin from the ground.
20 Q. And when they pulled out the tail, did they keep it, or did your
21 team take it over?
22 A. No, they returned it back to us, and we took it and filed it in
23 the log book in the crime laboratory, which is the regular procedure.
24 Q. But do you have any knowledge if the United Nations' commission
25 carried out an on-site investigation and recording of the scene after you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 had done that?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you could find a suitable moment to
4 interrupt the cross-examination within the next few minutes, please let us
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you have any knowledge if a request was made to
8 set up a commission made up of the representatives of the Serb and Bosnian
9 side to carry out the investigation at Markale?
10 A. I heard it on television.
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge if that commission and in that
12 composition did indeed carry out the investigation on site at Markale?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Can you tell us which member of your team took the stabiliser and
15 shrapnel of the shell and took them to the -- to MUP, to the police?
16 A. I believe it was Sead Besic.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
18 call it a day now. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 Before I adjourn, I'd just like to confer with my colleagues for
21 one second.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why we conferred is that the Prosecution
24 is still waiting for an oral application for protective measures made this
25 morning. We'll give a decision on that before we resume the
1 cross-examination of the witness tomorrow morning.
2 Since I take it that the cross-examination would take some time,
3 that means that the witness will not be confronted with a decision just at
4 the very minute where her testimony will start.
5 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on
9 Thursday, the 14th day of March, 2002,
10 at 9.00 a.m.