1 Tuesday, 19 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Ierace, I see you're on your feet. I promised more or less
11 yesterday to Mr. Piletta-Zanin that he would get 10 minutes. If there's
12 any specific reason why you think you would be the first this morning,
13 please explain it to me.
14 MR. IERACE: There is, Mr. President. The first witness to be
15 called this morning is Rasid Dzonko. The exhibit list does not include a
16 video that was taken in relation to the relevant incident, and it should.
17 Steps are being taken to bring the video to Court. I should indicate that
18 it has been disclosed along with all of the other videos, and its contents
19 are similar, that is, the witness is seen to point out relevant features.
20 I apologise for not having included it in the exhibit list, and I seek the
21 leave of the Trial Chamber to add it to this morning's list. In other
22 words, it is on the exhibit list, but it has not been included in the list
23 for today. I don't know whether my friends are disadvantaged by that. As
24 I say, it has been disclosed and the contents are the usual contents.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, is this a video about an incident
2 the witness will testify about?
3 MR. IERACE: It is, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.
9 Your Honours, Mr. President, thank you for giving us the floor. First of
10 all, let me bid good morning to all of you. I think that these two issues
11 can be treated at the same time. Or perhaps would you want us first to
12 respond to the problem concerning the document? In which case, I can do
13 it hic et nunc.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As you wish.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Very
16 well, I will take this opportunity and address the issue of exhibits. The
17 Defence does not accept, and categorically so, this new way of
18 proceedings. The Prosecution had ample opportunity to disclose within
19 time limits this document.
20 There is another reason for which we cannot accept this exhibit.
21 In this trial, after you have had the problem of black boxes, I think now
22 we are faced with the problem of blank boxes -- white boxes. I have to
23 show you an example. This document concerns the following witness. This
24 is what we received earlier on. We have not asked for a better copy,
25 because the translation that we had in front of us reads literally as
1 follows: "The remaining portion of the text is not legible." So we
2 concluded that it was not possible to translate the remainder of the text.
3 We received yesterday the same document, but instead of having
4 this black box syndrome, we have a white box syndrome. We have received a
5 more complete translation, but if I take any line as an example, first of
6 all, I have the word "illegible"; then in the second line, four times
7 illegible; fourth line, five times illegible. And so on and so forth.
8 You can see it from the distance. The only thing we have is just
9 illegible words. I don't know if, realistically speaking, we can accept
10 that the Defence can conduct its preparations with the certificates which
11 could not be translated and all we have is just a string of words,
12 illegible, illegible, illegible. So that is the first issue that I wanted
13 to raise.
14 We are very -- once again, very categorical about the issue of
15 both the tape and the certificate. The number is P2771.1, which is
16 probably going to be tendered shortly by the Prosecution. The document
17 has more words marked as illegible than the words that have actually been
19 Let me now go back to the crucial issue in respect of which I
20 wanted you to give us some more time; namely, the issue of instructions.
21 What we would like to obtain from the Prosecution in accordance with Rules
22 66 and 68 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence is the collection of
23 significant documents which are in the possession of the Prosecution.
24 That is, the documents concerning the headquarters of the general staff.
25 There is a number of instructions which are indispensable for the
1 preparation of the Defence. The first group concerns the relationship
2 between the headquarters of the so-called Sarajevo army on one side and
3 its brigades on the other -- I'm sorry, let me correct myself -- and its
4 corps. So the links between the headquarters and the corps. This is the
5 first echelon of command. The Prosecution is telling us that we are
6 talking about a huge quantity of documents, which is not totally accurate
7 simply because, Your Honours, this documentation exists. The Prosecution
8 has produced these documents in another case which is currently pending
9 before another Chamber. The references of this trial were given to the
10 Prosecution, and this procedure is taking place within this other trial.
11 So we don't need to envisage an expedition to Sarajevo or to any
12 other location because the Prosecution is already in the possession of
13 these documents and this type of information, which have all been
14 disclosed in another case.
15 The same goes for the second echelon of command, that is to say,
16 the area of command between corps and brigades. That is the second level
17 of command; the relationship between the corps and the brigades. What we
18 wish to obtain, of course, are not specific and concrete orders, because
19 there are no such orders in this particular case, but we need the
20 so-called directives. It is the same term that is used in the English
21 language. And these directives comprise a so-called global orders, the
22 orders concerning a global strategy of the army.
23 Why is this necessary for the Defence? It is our submission, Your
24 Honour, that there were battles, and there was fighting going on during
25 the relevant times, and that this fighting consisted, of course, of
1 shelling or sniping or simply firing from fire weapons and so on and so
2 forth. And of course, during that period of time, there was a
3 considerable risk of mistargeting.
4 We wish to show a number of attacks or plans of attacks on the
5 part of the so-called Sarajevo army so that we can show that, as far as
6 the other side is concerned, there were necessarily some defensive
7 operations. I'm not talking about retaliation, but defensive operations.
8 Of course, there was very often exchanges of fire involving relevant
9 weapons. What we wish to show, Your Honours, is that these movements of
10 troops and general orders which had to be issued by the headquarters, of
11 course imply a certain number of transport of troops and equipment and so
12 on and so forth.
13 Every time when there is a transport of either troops or
14 equipment, there is always the risk of accidents involving shooting and
15 exchanges of fire in general. It is also important for the Defence to be
16 able to show that there was a strategy on the part of the so-called
17 Sarajevo army. Why? We will be able to show that such strategy existed
18 with the use of these directives. It is not the task of the Defence, but
19 I think that we can assist the Prosecution in trying to establish the
20 truth, that we would like to show there was no asystematic shelling or
21 sniping campaign throughout the relevant times. But that there were quite
22 legitimate actions and operations which were -- which could be expected in
23 view of the general situation and which we want to show with the
24 assistance of these documents.
25 So in a nutshell, we need the directives issued by the
1 headquarters to the army in general, army corps, and then from the army
2 corps to their respective brigades so that we can see what was exactly
3 going on in Sarajevo during the relevant times. Of course, I am talking
4 about the period of time between August -- September 1992 and August 1994.
5 I don't think that it is an impossible exercise for the Prosecution
6 because, once again, these documents have already been disclosed within
7 the framework of another case.
8 Thank you very much for giving us this opportunity to address the
9 Chamber on this issue. Thank you for your patience.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, as far as I understand Mr. Piletta-Zanin
11 at this moment, what he essentially did is to explain why he thinks that
12 certain materials are material for the Defence or exculpatory. Would you
13 like to respond now or would you like to respond later today or --?
14 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to respond now, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: I think I can do so briefly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
18 MR. IERACE: There is no issue between the Prosecution and the
19 Defence in relation to those two categories of documents. I explained to
20 the Trial Chamber last Thursday what steps we were taking to ascertain
21 what the office of the Prosecutor holds, which is relevant to its
22 obligations under Rule 66 (B) and Rule 68. So I don't know that we need
23 to spend any more time on that issue.
24 I anticipated to you last week that by the first week of April, I
25 will be able to inform the Trial Chamber whether there are any documents
1 we possess which are relevant and which we have not yet disclosed. That
2 follows on the Defence informing the Office of the Prosecutor that it
3 believes that there may be documents or that there are documents which
4 have been tendered in another case.
5 Mr. President, in relation to the medical report, my friend
6 complains that the first version of the report was largely illegible. Of
7 course, the Prosecution would have preferred to have disclosed a legible
8 version. Steps were taken to obtain legible versions late last year. I
9 have informed the Trial Chamber of that previously. And as a result, it
10 seems that a more legible version was obtained and it has been disclosed.
11 It is still not entirely legible. As can be seen, there are passages
12 which are either entirely illegible or only partly legible. I do not
13 understand why my friend blames the Prosecution for that. The Prosecution
14 makes available the best copies it is able to obtain. It is as simple as
15 that. It is not the fault of the Prosecution if there are not legible
16 copies which are obtainable. Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as the disclosure of
20 documents is concerned, I would say the army documents, you explained to
21 us why they are material to the Defence in your view and why they might
22 even be exculpatory. I do understand from Mr. Ierace that there is no
23 major disagreement perhaps on that, but that he'll first do his homework,
24 see what comes up. So I think until we have seen the results of the
25 research of Mr. Ierace, there's no reason at this moment, although it's
1 good to have your explanation as far as the materiality is concerned and
2 as far as the possible exculpatory character of the evidence is concerned,
3 to first wait and see what comes up, and then see whether that is
4 acceptable or not in view of Rules 66 and 68.
5 Then, the second issue of the medical documents, of course, we
6 haven't seen them yet. As we did last time, as soon as they will be
7 tendered, I do understand that you have objected already in advance. So I
8 think before showing it to the witness, perhaps also keeping in mind what
9 the testimony of the witness was until that moment, and for what probative
10 purposes the medical record is tendered, we'll then give a decision on
11 whether these records are admissible in evidence or not.
12 The document you showed to us, may I assume that that's the better
13 legible copy last been provided by the Prosecution?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at any rate,
15 that is the best copy received by the Defence. I'm sure about that.
16 Tomorrow, perhaps we will be given even better copies than the one that we
17 already have. But I don't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if by that question to my friend you
20 had in mind the copy that my friend held up which had a large area in
21 black, that is not the most legible version.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like now to have the best copy of both
23 parties, which, Mr. Usher, would you please, so that we can compare them.
24 And the other one as well.
25 I'm not going to read them, I'm just going to compare them in
1 view of...
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can hand up the original copy held
3 by the Prosecution. I'll make that available.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have given
5 you two examples. The clearer copy is the more recent one, and the
6 other --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, which copy did you show us from a
8 distance? It was this one, isn't it?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Both, both. That's the reason why
10 I gave you both, sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's then clear. That's the second copy is
12 the better readable one.
13 Mr. Ierace, it was not in my recollection, but both my colleagues
14 say that both copies have been put in the air. So that we now see that
15 the Defence has -- let me just compare them.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I return them to the -- these are the ones that came
18 from the Defence. This is the one that came from the Prosecution. So we
19 now have seen the best available copy provided by the Prosecution. We'll
20 give a decision when it comes to -- when the Prosecution will tender the
21 document. That about the medical documents.
22 What else did we have? Yes, the videotape is the last issue
23 raised this morning. I do understand that the videotape has been
24 disclosed to the Defence, but it has not been indicated to the Defence in
25 due time that it would be played. On the other hand, I also do understand
1 that the videotape deals with the specific incident on which the witness
2 will testify. May I please hear from the Defence on whether they think
3 they could cross-examine the witness even though the Prosecution has
4 failed to give a timely indication that they would use it.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Not only
6 were we taken by surprise, but also it was not the first time and probably
7 not the last time. We will, despite that fact, demonstrate our usual
8 flexibility in this case.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 Then I think, Mr. Ierace, having dealt with the problems, you
11 could call your next witness.
12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. And I express my gratitude to
13 the Defence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake of
16 clarity, I didn't mention a moment ago, though I was speaking about the
17 documents, what was the name of the procedure that is the case in which
18 the Prosecutor has already disclosed these documents. So let me tell you,
19 it is the case against Mario Kordic. I think that is the name of the
20 case. I don't have the number of the case, but I hope that this
21 information will be sufficient to the Prosecution. This case is still
23 MR. IERACE: I don't want to waste time, Mr. President. But it
24 was I who informed the Defence of the name of the case. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm quite sure that somewhere over the next
1 break, you will agree on which case it was.
2 Then, Mr. Ierace, would you please call your next witness. Let's
3 first see whether the videolink is functioning well. Yes, I see that we
4 have a videolink with Sarajevo. Ms. Philpott, are you able to understand
5 us? I think I saw you giving an answer, but I didn't hear anything.
6 Could you please speak a few words.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, good morning, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was quite audible. So I think if
9 the videolink is functioning well -- perhaps we should just give a test
10 and say a few more words so that we know for sure that we're able to hear
11 each other.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] One, two, three, four, five, six,
13 seven, eight, nine, ten.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Ms. Philpott.
15 I think, Mr. Ierace, you agree that the witness can be I would say
16 brought into the courtroom but brought within the videolink area.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I call Rasid Dzonko.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
21 giving me the floor. I'm taking advantage of this pause in the absence of
22 the witness actually to know in very exact terms whether Mr. Ierace can
23 tell us the name of the witness. I'm asking this question because we have
24 a number of documents. Sometimes he refers to him as Dzonko, sometimes
25 Dzenko, and so on. So could Mr. Ierace tell us the exact name of the next
1 witness. Is it Dzonko or Dzunko or what?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do you have any other persons in mind
3 which he could be confused with, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Because Mr. Ierace
4 might then ask exactly how his name is spelled.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It would be a good idea for
7 all of us if he did that, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I expect that you'll pay proper
9 attention to the issue just raised.
10 Good morning, Witness. I'll not call you by your name under these
11 specific circumstances. Good morning. You're at a great distance from us
12 here in The Hague, and you'll testify before the Tribunal but before
13 giving your testimony, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to
14 make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
15 and nothing but the truth. The text of this declaration will be handed
16 out to you now by Ms. Philpott. May I invite you to make that
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, and only -- and nothing but the truth; the whole truth, and
20 nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You'll first be examined by
22 counsel for the Prosecution. After that, you will be examined by counsel
23 for the Defence. And whenever the Judges have any additional questions to
24 you, they will put them to you.
25 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 WITNESS: RASID DZONKO
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 [Witness testified via videolink]
5 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
6 Q. Is your name Rasid Dzonko?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you please spell your name.
9 A. D-Z-O-N-K-O. D-Z-O-N-K-O. R-A-S-I-D is the first name.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzonko. Were you born on the 25th of December in
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In 1994, were you living in Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was your address in 1994?
16 A. In Sarajevo, Senada Mandica Street, number 5.
17 Q. Who did you live there with in 1994?
18 A. With my son-in-law and my daughter.
19 Q. Is that an apartment building with a number of floors?
20 A. Yes. It is.
21 Q. How many floors did the apartment building have?
22 A. Eight.
23 Q. On what floor did you live?
24 A. Seven.
25 Q. In 1994, how far was that place, approximately, from the
1 confrontation lines?
2 A. Well, about 50 to 60 metres.
3 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, were you injured?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did that happen?
6 A. It happened in July, in the evening at 10.30 p.m.
7 Q. Whereabouts were you when that happened?
8 A. I was in the kitchen. We were sitting there and watching
9 television. We were watching the World Championship, a football game.
10 Q. Who else was in the apartment with you at that time?
11 A. Well, my three daughters. We had met there. I came and sat with
12 them right up until my injury. My son-in-law was there and his two
14 Q. Was your wife present at that time?
15 A. I don't have a wife.
16 Q. At that time, you've told us your three daughters were present,
17 your son-in-law, and two of your grandchildren. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did either of your other two daughters have any children?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You've told us that you were watching television at the time that
22 you were shot and that that was about 10.30 p.m. Whereabouts were you
24 A. 10.45.
25 Q. In what part of your body did the bullet enter?
1 A. It hit me in the back.
2 Q. On what part of your back; the upper back, the middle back, or the
3 lower back?
4 A. The middle back.
5 Q. Was the entry point towards the spine or to one side?
6 A. To one side.
7 Q. Was that your left side or your right side?
8 A. Left side.
9 Q. Did the bullet stay in your body or did it pass through your body?
10 A. It passed through my body and exited and hit the wall, and then
11 continued on through the door and so on.
12 Q. Through what part of your body did the bullet exit?
13 A. Here, by the stomach.
14 Q. Perhaps you could stand up, Mr. Dzonko, and point to the part of
15 your body where the bullet came out. There is no need to lift up your
17 A. [Indicates]
18 MR. IERACE: For the record, Mr. President, the witness indicates
19 his left side, left front side, about halfway down the torso.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzonko. You may sit down again.
21 How big was the hole made by the bullet when it left your body?
22 A. Well, it was, I would say, 5 to 6 centimetres wide.
23 Q. You said that the bullet, after it left your body, hit the wall.
24 Do you know what happened to the bullet after it hit the wall?
25 A. It hit the wall, and then continued on, hitting the door, the
1 hanging part on the door. And there was a chandelier in the cupboard that
2 my daughter had taken down to prevent it from being damaged, but,
3 unfortunately, the bullet passed through all that, destroyed the lighting
4 and lodged somewhere there.
5 Q. Did you receive any medical attention that night?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Whereabouts?
8 A. I was taken to hospital straight away, to Kosevo, the hospital in
9 Kosevo, and I stayed there for 13 days.
10 Q. Did you receive any treatment at any other place before you were
11 taken to Kosevo Hospital?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At any stage during your treatment did you attend Dobrinja
15 A. When they took me, I went to Dobrinja. That's where they bandaged
16 my wound, and then I continued on upwards.
17 Q. Did you hear any shooting earlier that night, that is, before you
18 were shot?
19 A. Well, there was very little shooting. It would stop for a bit,
20 then continue, and that was what it was like every day.
21 Q. Did you hear any shot at about the time that you were shot?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Did you hear any shooting immediately after you were shot?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were there any soldiers positioned in your building at that time,
1 that is, around the middle of 1994?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you aware of there being any armaments or soldiers anywhere in
4 your building on the day or evening that you were shot?
5 A. No. We couldn't even get to the part where the soldiers were. I
6 never actually saw them, the people who were up there, looking after their
7 families. But I didn't see them.
8 Q. You told us that you were only 50 metres from the front line.
9 What part of your apartment faced the direction of the front line?
10 A. Well, actually it was the balcony, the balcony where I was hit.
11 That is directly facing the front line. There's a building in front of
12 us, and in between the two buildings, you -- there's -- it's open space.
13 You can see right the way through.
14 Q. Did you understand that an investigation was carried out after you
15 were taken from the apartment?
16 A. People from IFOR came, and they took the bullet and then took
17 photographs of it and examined it, but I wasn't there then.
18 Q. I think you said it was people from IFOR. Do you mean IFOR or
19 another United Nations military organisation?
20 A. I don't know. I can't say exactly who they were, but they came in
21 a car, one of them stayed in the car, and that's what I learned when I was
22 in hospital.
23 Q. Who told you that in hospital, or how did you find out in
25 A. When my son-in-law came to visit, he said that these people came
2 Q. Now, given how --
3 MR. IERACE: Pardon me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm reacting a
6 little late. I apologise. But I see in line 12, the answer given by
7 the witness was IFOR. I-F-O-R, IFOR. And then another line which is line
8 11, which is disappearing from our screens now, when I see the successive
9 question, the next question by Mr. Ierace, which refers to another
10 military organisation of the United Nations, another United Nations
11 military organisation, I don't see that the witness mentioned any United
12 Nations military organisation. And therefore, Mr. Ierace's question seems
13 to me to be --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is it the position of the Defence that IFOR was not a
15 UN military organisation? I just ask to clarify.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know what the witness
17 thinks that IFOR stands for. I don't know whether he knows what IFOR
18 stands for, the witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking a question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could
20 you please tell me whether the Defence takes the position that IFOR was
21 not a UN military organisation.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me consult the accused.
23 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer I was given is that
25 it was an organisation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The information contained
4 in the second question doesn't make the question inadmissible.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Mr. Dzonko, you told us that your balcony faced the direction of
8 the front line. From your balcony, could you see the --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- any of the area of the other side of the confrontation line?
11 A. Yes, you could see during the day. During the daytime, you could
12 see. But we weren't there -- we had to hide, so we would hide in the
13 other room and would only sit in the kitchen at these other times.
14 Q. On which side of the confrontation line did you live? In other
15 words, which of the armed forces controlled the area where you lived?
16 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. Which forces controlled that part of the other side of the
18 confrontation line that could be seen from your balcony?
19 A. They were the Serb side.
20 Q. Mr. Dzonko, some people might say that it wasn't very sensible to
21 live in a place that was so close to the confrontation line. Did you have
22 the option of moving to a different area further away?
23 A. No, I didn't have anywhere to live -- anywhere else. My
24 son-in-law had a house there, and my daughter.
25 Q. Mr. Dzonko, what was the room immediately alongside the balcony?
1 A. The kitchen.
2 Q. What was the nature of the wall between the kitchen and the
3 balcony? In other words, was it windows or a brick wall or what?
4 A. It was a brick wall, but there was a door there going out onto the
5 balcony and a window looking towards the direction from where I was
7 Q. On the 17th of July, 1994, did the window have any glass?
8 A. There was glass up at the top, up until halfway down the door.
9 But the bottom part was wooden planks.
10 Q. Are you referring to the door or a window?
11 A. The door.
12 Q. What about the window? Did that have any glass in it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were there any coverings over the window and the glass portion of
15 the door on that evening?
16 A. Yes, the blinds and two blankets were put up to block the view.
17 You couldn't see anything, but the light wasn't on anyway, just the
18 television set was on. And we put two blankets to cover up the windows,
19 and the blinds were down.
20 Q. Which direction was the screen of the television facing at the
21 time you were shot?
22 A. It was facing me, inwards, not outwards. It was inside the room
23 next to the kitchen.
24 Q. Mr. Dzonko, shortly you will see a video on the screen in front of
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this point, I would ask that the
2 technical booth play the video. The Exhibit Number is P3279TT. Thank
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. IERACE:
6 Q. Mr. Dzonko, can you see anything on the screen at the moment?
7 A. No. I cannot.
8 MR. IERACE: Perhaps, Mr. President, we could restart the video
9 and ensure the screen has the image.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Could, perhaps, the representative
11 of the Registry in Sarajevo confirm to us if the screen --
12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour. We do have the
13 video on the screen.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Then please may the video be
15 played further.
16 [Videotape played]
17 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Mr. Dzonko, I will now give you some
18 instructions. Please stand where you were -- where you were located when
19 you were shot.
20 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
21 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Please assume the position you were
22 in, to the best of your recollection, at the time you were shot.
23 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
24 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: It is my understanding that there was
25 wood on the door of this apartment at about the time that you were shot.
1 Can you please indicate, with your hand, the level to which the wood
2 covered the door.
3 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
4 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you please indicate, with your
5 finger, to the best of your recollection where the bullet hole came
6 through the door on the day that you were shot.
7 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
8 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you. Could you please take your
9 seat again, sir.
10 "And finally, could you please point to the location where the
11 television set was located on the day that you were shot.
12 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
13 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you."
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Mr. Dzonko, did you recognise yourself in that video?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you comply with the requests of the investigator truthfully
18 and to the best of your recollection?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was the TV which appeared in the video the same one or a different
21 one that you were watching on the night that you were shot?
22 A. The same one.
23 Q. Was the direction in which the television was facing on the night
24 that you were shot different or the same as it appeared in the video?
25 A. The same as it is now.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wish to show some photographs to the
2 witness. Perhaps I could have some assistance to do that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: The first photograph that I show to the witness is
5 part of P3279T, photograph marked 34A.
6 Q. In a moment, Mr. Dzonko, you should see a photograph on the screen
7 in front of you. Can you tell us when you can see a photograph.
8 Can you now see a photograph in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Do you recognise yourself?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Are you seated in the apartment in which you lived in 1994?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the approximate position where you were seated when you were
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the photograph, we can see a railing on the balcony. Was that
18 there when you were shot?
19 A. One part was there, but the other one was destroyed because two
20 shells had fallen on the same balcony prior to that.
21 Q. Can you describe to us which part was there and which part was
23 A. The part that was missing was on the left side, and the other one
24 was on the right side.
25 Q. In relation to the part of the balcony that appears in this
1 photograph, was any part of that missing -- I withdraw that.
2 What about the parts of the balcony that can be seen in the
3 photograph? Were they there, or any parts of that part of the balcony
4 with a railing, on the night that you were shot?
5 A. There's nothing there, just the wooden planks on the door. There
6 was no glass in the bottom part of the door.
7 Q. In relation to the green-painted railing which appears in the
8 photograph, did that part of the balcony have any railing on the night
9 that you were shot?
10 A. Yes, it did. What you can see here, but on the left side of the
11 balcony, there was nothing. The part that you can see now was there at
12 the time.
13 Q. Thank you for that.
14 You will now see another photograph.
15 MR. IERACE: Might photograph 9A be placed on the ELMO.
16 Q. Do you recognise the building which appears in front of you now?
17 A. Of course I do.
18 Q. Is that the apartment building in which you lived on the day or
19 the night that you were shot?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is the balcony of your apartment on the row of green-painted
22 balconies that appears towards the centre of the photograph?
23 A. The mid portion that was destroyed, there is another balcony
25 Q. All right. Do you mean that you were on the second balcony from
1 the top in the middle column of balconies in the photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To the left of your balcony, as one looks at the photograph, there
4 appear to be some three impact marks on the orange-coloured wall of the
5 apartment block next door. Is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. What made each of those three impacts?
8 A. They are the result of a shelling. My balcony was hit by two
9 mortar shells, on two occasions, and considerable part of it was
10 destroyed. But some has been -- something has been repaired.
11 Q. Do these three impact points represent three different occasions
12 or less than three occasions of shelling?
13 A. There was shooting and shelling almost every day.
14 Q. Do you remember when --
15 A. The smaller -- during the day, one didn't dare show up, because
16 you would disappear. Only during the night. That's where we were, that's
17 where we had our meals and watched television.
18 Q. Do you recall what years or year those three shelling impacts were
20 A. Well, you know, I had arrived five months prior to the events. I
21 lived in Trnovo. And I managed to escape from there, and I came to live
22 with my daughter. Some of the damage was already there. But the shooting
23 and shelling continued when I arrived. We no longer -- we could no longer
24 take this entrance that you can see. We had pierced an entrance on the
25 other side of the building which we used because we couldn't take the
1 front entrance any more.
2 Q. Why could you not take the front entrance?
3 A. Because it was visible from where the shooting came.
4 Q. Was that important that it was visible? What would happen if you
5 took the front entrance?
6 A. They would have killed you. Only during the night, when we had to
7 go to fetch water, did we use this entrance to leave the building.
8 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Photograph 35.
9 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you recognise what appears in this photograph?
10 A. It's difficult to recognise this.
11 Q. I think in the photograph, one can see a row of apartment
12 buildings slightly to the left of centre and another row --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- row of apartment buildings slightly to the right of centre, and
15 in between them, one can see an apartment building behind the two front
16 rows. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is. However, the mid part where I lived, there are
18 buildings on both sides, but there is a 10-metre long passage between the
19 buildings which is facing the portion of the front line from where the
20 bullets came.
21 Q. Can you see any part of your building in this photograph, that is,
22 the building in which you lived on the night you were shot?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. Are you able to describe that building as it appears in the
25 photograph, or that part of the building?
1 A. You mean only my apartment?
2 Q. Well, firstly, the building in which you lived.
3 A. Yes. This is it.
4 Q. Can you describe to us where it is in the photograph, that is, the
5 building in which you lived.
6 A. Here.
7 Q. We cannot see where you are pointing. Can you tell us where it is
8 in the photograph. Perhaps first of all, is it towards the middle of the
9 photograph or to one side of the middle?
10 A. Not exactly in the middle, more to the left where entrance number
11 5 is.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, is it possible for the witness in
14 Sarajevo to point to the photograph in a way which can be recorded?
15 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour, we can place the
16 photograph on the ELMO here in Sarajevo, and the witness can point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you then please assist the witness in
18 putting the photograph on the Sarajevo ELMO.
19 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that.
20 Q. Mr. Dzonko, can you now place your finger or a pointer on the
21 building where you were living on that night and hold the pointer or your
22 finger on that building.
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask the technical booth or whether we have
24 The Hague ELMO on our screen -- oh, yes, I see the finger of the witness,
1 A. [Indicates]
2 MR. IERACE: The witness is pointing to a high-rise apartment
3 building in the right portion of the photograph which shows the top layers
4 of the photograph [sic] destroyed. Thank you.
5 Q. To the best of your recollection, is that the building in which
6 you were living at the time you were shot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown again Photograph 34A.
10 Q. Mr. Dzonko, I think you see again the photograph that shows you
11 sitting in your apartment, approximately in the position you were in when
12 you were shot. Is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And in the background, we can see two buildings and a gap between
15 the two buildings. Is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Were there any houses between your apartment building and the two
18 buildings we can see in the back of this photograph?
19 A. There were two other buildings where this passage was, and they
20 could see both the right and the left side of this passage. As for the
21 building, there were less impacts on this side, in the shelling. The side
22 -- the building of the other side was also damaged by a shell.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. Actually, both of them.
25 Q. You told us earlier that from your balcony, it was possible to see
1 an area controlled by the Serb forces, that is, the forces on the other
2 side of the confrontation line.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Perhaps you could point -- withdraw that.
5 MR. IERACE: First of all perhaps, Mr. President, Ms. Philpott
6 could place a copy of this photograph on the ELMO in Sarajevo.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's 34A.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Dzonko, could you please point to any part of the
10 territory held by the Serb forces that you can see in this photograph. Do
11 you understand the question?
12 A. Yes, I do. There was this passage which was situated in between.
13 Q. All right. Well, first of all, can you point to the passage
14 between the buildings.
15 A. That is from this balcony, in this direction, towards the road.
16 Straight ahead.
17 Q. All right. Now, could you point to the building which is on the
18 right side of the passage as we look at the photograph.
19 A. [Indicates]
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. Here.
22 Q. Which side of the confrontation line was that building on; the
23 Bosnian government side or the other side?
24 A. These buildings were on the Bosnian side. And on the other side
25 of these buildings, there were Serb forces.
1 Q. All right. And what about the part that can be seen between the
2 two buildings in that photograph? Which side was that part on?
3 A. Yes. Serb side.
4 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Photograph 11A.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the record,
7 we would like to indicate that the witness showed -- pointed to two
8 buildings which he can see from his window, unless there's a mistake.
9 MR. IERACE: I agree with that, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown - I'm sorry - 1A,
12 Photograph 1A.
13 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you agree with me that this appears to be a
14 close-up taken from your balcony, showing the gap between the two
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown 3A.
18 Q. Do you now see a further close-up of the gap between the two
19 buildings as seen from your balcony?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Down the bottom of the gap, we can see what appears to be some
22 street lights and a traffic sign. Do you see those?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. And immediately behind the street lights, we can see what appears
25 to be a two- or three-storey house with a new roof, perhaps a new house.
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, this building was constructed after the war. The area had
3 been completely destroyed, and there is a new building that was built just
4 recently which was not there at the time.
5 Q. Where was the confrontation -- where were the confrontation lines
6 in relation to that new building at the time that you were shot?
7 A. Exactly on the spot where this new house is. This was their
8 ground. There used to be a house there before, but it was destroyed in
9 shooting. They had a very small house there, which was actually a bunker,
10 and that is where they were shooting from. This area was theirs.
11 Q. In the background, one can see a white building with a flat roof,
12 and one can see three rows of windows facing towards your balcony. Do you
13 know what building that was?
14 A. That building is a Catholic monastery. That is where Serbs were.
15 That is where they fired from. And also, it is the faculty of theology.
16 Q. When you say that is where Serbs fired from, what do you mean?
17 A. They could target everything from there. That is actually where
18 they targeted us from -- that was the most usual spot that they used for
20 Q. How do you know that that was the most usual spot used?
21 A. Because this is a very large building, and everybody said that
22 that is where they mostly fired from. When -- because the whole area
23 between this little house and further down was under their control.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would that be a convenient time?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Could you give us an indication,
1 just for our planning, on how much time you'd still need for the
3 MR. IERACE: About 10 minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: About 10 minutes.
5 Mr. Dzonko, we will have a break for half an hour, and then your
6 examination will be continued, first by counsel for the Prosecution, then
7 by counsel for the Defence.
8 We will adjourn until 11.00 local time in The Hague.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with the examination-in-chief,
12 Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 I ask that the witness be shown again photograph 35, from Exhibit
15 P3279T. Perhaps Ms. Philpott could place a copy of the same photograph on
16 the ELMO in Sarajevo as well.
17 Q. Mr. Dzonko, I show you again a photograph that I showed you
18 earlier. You have explained to us in the meantime that, from your
19 balcony, there was a passage between two buildings of a similar height to
20 yours through which the area on the other side of the confrontation line
21 could be seen.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the photograph, are you able to see either of the two buildings
24 that were between your apartment and the confrontation lines?
25 A. [Indicates]
1 Q. You point to the buildings to the right of the photograph. Please
3 A. Here, in between.
4 Q. What is in between?
5 A. The passageway.
6 MR. IERACE: The witness points to the centre of the photograph.
7 Thank you.
8 Might the witness be shown Photograph 076. 076 is the photograph
9 which appears to have some -- yes, thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just to avoid whatever misunderstanding,
11 usually the last part of the numbering is either numbers or letters, and
12 then not more than two numbers. Could it be 07B?
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 Q. What appears in that photograph, Mr. Dzonko?
15 A. That's in the corridor, and it is a cupboard, built-in cupboard or
17 Q. You said earlier that the bullet, having left your body,
18 ricocheted off a wall, and ultimately entered a cupboard and hit a
19 chandelier which had been placed in the cupboard for safekeeping. Is that
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Does that cupboard appear in this photograph, or was it a
23 different cupboard?
24 A. It's this cupboard here in the corridor.
25 Q. Would you please point to the particular part of the cupboard that
1 the bullet entered.
2 A. It hit somewhere here, but I can't actually see it. This upper
4 Q. All right. The upper part. Thank you, that will do.
5 Now, when you were discharged from Kosevo Hospital, did you
6 receive any documentation from the hospital staff?
7 A. Nothing. I didn't receive anything.
8 Q. At any stage did you see any documentation -- excuse me for a
9 minute, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. One, with
12 respect to the French translation, and what is going to appear in the
13 transcript. It wasn't what was said by the witness. The reference was to
14 medical documentation and not to anything else.
15 And the other point -- that is my main remark, but the other point
16 is that if we're going to examine this question of documents now that you
17 received a moment ago, I don't know whether it would be convenient to find
18 a way of reading to the witness the pertinent part or the part that is
19 being established. So that is a suggestion on my part. So that is a
20 suggestion on my part, thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear yet Mr. Ierace asking to present any
22 document to the witness. But if it comes to that, Mr. Ierace, perhaps we
23 would first have a look at the document and see whether it could be done
24 or not.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Dzonko, at any stage have you received a report apparently
2 from Kosevo Hospital about your injuries and the treatment that you were
3 given at that hospital?
4 A. I didn't receive anything. I received a discharge list, the
5 discharge paper.
6 Q. When did you receive that?
7 A. When I left hospital.
8 Q. What information did it have on it?
9 A. I didn't actually read it. I put it away somewhere. I don't know
10 where it is.
11 MR. IERACE: I ask that Exhibit P2771 be placed on the ELMO.
12 Mr. President, does that meet your requirements?
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'd rather first -- if you'd please give it first
14 to the Chamber and give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to give the
15 reasons why he objects against presenting the document to the witness.
16 Yes, if you would please give it just...
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
18 giving us the floor. What we should like to indicate is the following:
19 That the documenti quasi, totally illegible, except the essential part at
20 the bottom. So what we should like to do is to submit this document
21 directly to the witness, he can read it, and we can see what is to be
22 understood by it. And as I said a moment ago, Mr. President, this portion
23 in the translation, and we have these words here, it says "illegible," and
24 then there's a blank, and then "illegible" and so on. So it's not a
25 document that, reasonably speaking, can be used in this case and in this
1 procedure, and I think it would be far better if the document were to be
2 placed on the ELMO in front of the witness for the witness to read it if
3 he is able to.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it's decisive whether the
5 witness can read it or not, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But do I understand that
6 it is the position of the Defence that those parts of this document
7 readable could be admitted into evidence and those parts illegible could
8 not be admitted into evidence? Because you asked the witness to read
9 parts of it, which raises this question.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
11 there is a reason why -- that there are grounds to reject this document.
12 If you compare the two translations that I handed to you a moment ago - I
13 don't know if you've got them - but those two translations that we
14 received of the documents, one of them is in black and the other one is
15 little clearer, whiter, you will see that it is in fact the same document,
16 which is readable in the upper part, but the English translation is not
17 the same. So this raises an essential problem. We have two documents
18 with two different translations as to the part that is legible. So we
19 cannot accept these documents, and we think that these documents in their
20 entirety, whatever their copies, whether it is the dark copy or the white
21 copy, that they should be rejected.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you if you present this
23 document to the witness, what is your probative purpose doing so? I can
24 imagine there are many, but please indicate to us what you would like to
25 establish by putting questions to the witness in relation to this
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, first of all, it corroborates the
3 evidence of the witness as to the date of admission and approximate date
4 of -- and the evidence as to the date of discharge. The witness is
5 identified as the recipient of the treatment by way of his name on the
6 document and his year of birth. The document also contains some
7 information in relation to his diagnosis on discharge, diagnosis on
8 admission, partly, and surgery performed. There is also a reference to
9 him being a wounded person and a reference to a relevant part of his body
10 which is corroborative of the evidence he has given.
11 Mr. President, perhaps I should make the position of the
12 Prosecution clear, because this is related to an ongoing objection. The
13 Prosecution does not say it is necessary for medical records to be
14 tendered before the fact of injury can be established by this Tribunal.
15 That evidence of injury may come from one or more sources. One source,
16 and in my submission, a sufficient source, is a surviving victim informing
17 the Tribunal of the injuries that he received. So in that sense, this
18 document is not essential to the Prosecution case. The Prosecution offers
19 it because it is available and because, to the extent it is legible, it is
20 corroborative of the witness's evidence. But the Prosecution does not
21 lose the evidence of the witness if the document is not tendered. Thank
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you'd like to respond,
24 especially to the position the Prosecution takes in respect of the
25 evidentiary matter raised by the Prosecution, please do so.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, willingly. Three points,
2 Mr. President, the first of which is the following: This document is not
3 an original document. The original, as the witness has said, has been put
4 away somewhere by him, by the witness. So that is one problem, the
5 problem of originality of the document. It is not an original.
6 The second point is the eventual probative value of the document.
7 Now, Mr. President, if we look at this last document, which is the version
8 that is most legible, with the one that we received a -- some time ago, we
9 can see that in this document, there are things that were not legible
10 previously. Now, we received this document on the 18th or the 19th,
11 actually - this morning - in our pigeonhole and it is not possible for us
12 to be given documents and exhibits on the same day several hours before
13 the commencement of trial. So that is a matter of principle.
14 The other reason is that the consequence of this is that we should
15 consider this particular document in this particular form as it was
16 presented to us, and it was presented to us just this morning, or maybe
17 last night, which means that the rules concerning the disclosure of
18 documents were not respected. And therefore, this document cannot be
20 As to its probative value, I don't know, because I'm not able to
21 read it. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I invited you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, also to respond to
23 the position of the Prosecution that the type of injuries we're talking
24 about could be established by other means than medical reports. I'm
25 specifically asking you this because if - I say if - we would exclude this
1 document, apart from the corroboration that might result from it, it would
2 take away for you as well any challenging of the testimony of the witness
3 by using these kind of documents. For example, if a witness would say I
4 have been shot in the left arm, and if a badly legible document would say
5 it would be the right arm, you'd lose an opportunity -- I'm just trying to
6 draw your attention to advantages, and disadvantages, of course, of using
7 these kind of documents.
8 And therefore, I didn't hear any response to Mr. Ierace's remark
9 that he could do without the document as well, and that still the
10 testimony would be there.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I have a few moments to
12 confer with my colleague? Thank you.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
15 according me those moments to confer. The Defence persists, that is to
16 say, in this state of the document, which is not an original and
17 completely illegible, the Defence does not -- the position of the Defence
18 is that it does not want to have it accepted. We persist in our position.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber feels that it is necessary to shortly
23 deliberate and do it during a short break. Expected we'll be a couple of
25 We'll adjourn for five minutes or any longer, if necessary.
1 --- Break taken at 11.23 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before we give a
4 decision on whether it will be admitted or not, the Chamber allows you to
5 present this document to the witness for the obvious first questions. So
6 you may proceed this way. So if the witness could be shown
7 Document P2771.
8 The problem is that I see no witness on my screen. And may I
9 expect that a copy is in Sarajevo, Mr. Ierace? Because it might be a bit
10 difficult to read it from the screen or to...
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think there is a copy in
13 JUDGE ORIE: You don't think so.
14 MR. IERACE: No. Perhaps we could try with the screen and see how
15 legible it is.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] It is P2771.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but what I can see from a distance, and may I
18 ask, Mr. Ierace, is the bad legible copy of P2771 in Sarajevo, because it
19 very much looked to me on the screen as the, let's say, the black box.
20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, you're correct.
21 Excuse me, Mr. President.
22 The document that we have here does not seem to me to be
23 particularly legible on our ELMO, so could I respectfully suggest that the
24 poorer quality document be placed on the ELMO in Sarajevo, and I think it
25 just was. Perhaps it could be placed back on the ELMO in Sarajevo,
1 because the preliminary questions relate to parts of the document which I
2 think are visible on both versions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please put on the ELMO in Sarajevo the -- I
4 would say the bad copy, and the better copy is on the ELMO in The Hague
5 and could be manipulated by zooming in or zooming out.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Mr. Dzonko, there is a document placed in the area in front of
9 you. Would you please look at that document --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm truly
12 sorry, but I have to say that in respect of the same document, whether
13 we're dealing with the black or the white version, we have received
14 translations emanating from the Office of the Prosecution, and they are
15 not the same. So we have problems of translation. I wanted to draw the
16 Chamber's attention to that fact.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are not yet at a point of the
18 content of the document as far as translation is concerned. When I
19 referred to the obvious questions, I was not looking to any detail of
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE:
23 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you recognise that document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where have you seen it before and when have you seen it before?
1 A. Here, ten days ago.
2 Q. All right. And before then, had you seen it? In other words,
3 apart from ten days ago, have you seen it before?
4 A. I don't remember. Maybe I've forgotten.
5 Q. All right. Please look closely at the document. And do you see
6 towards the top of the document there is entered your name?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then please zoom in on the specific spot of
8 the document.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the witness is viewing the
10 poorer quality version in Sarajevo rather than the better quality version
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'd like him perhaps to look at both.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you'll ask him, then, whether he sees the
15 same or any different.
16 MR. IERACE: Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Dzonko, in relation to the copy which is in front of you, do
18 you see that your name appears towards the top part of the document?
19 A. I see it, yes.
20 Q. Do you remember that earlier you told us that you received a
21 discharge paper when you left hospital?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Now, when did you last see that discharge paper or a
24 copy of it?
25 MR. IERACE: I'll withdraw that.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has already
4 answered the question. He saw the document ten days ago in Sarajevo.
5 MR. IERACE: No, that's not --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please respond, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. In fairness to the Defence, I
8 don't think that I could connect the two at this stage. And I also
9 withdrew the question because I recollected the witness said he had not
10 read the discharge summary. But perhaps I would clarify that with the
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's also my recollection that he said he didn't read
14 MR. IERACE: Yes. So again in fairness to the Defence, that's why
15 I withdrew that question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One moment, please.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
20 Q. Mr. Dzonko, would you please look at the top line of the document.
21 Do you see the words "University Medical Centre, Sarajevo"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you see, to the right of those words, "Letter of Discharge"?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. I now direct you to the bottom of the document, that
1 is, the bottom left-hand corner. Do you see, in the bottom left-hand
2 corner, some handwriting?
3 A. There's a signature here.
4 Q. Is there also a date?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recognise any of the signatures which appear in the bottom
7 left-hand corner of the document?
8 A. There's my signature. The other one, I cannot... That's it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties in following your line of
10 questioning at this moment about dates and --
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I'm still directing the
12 witness to the poorer quality copy which he has in Sarajevo. And if you
13 will bear with me --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I would first like to instruct Sarajevo.
15 Ms. Philpott.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: In The Hague, we have two copies of what seems to be
18 the same document. The document the witness has in front of him at this
19 moment, is that a document with a big darkish area, especially on the
20 right side of that document?
21 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put that --
23 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] One has a darker. One copy is darker
24 than the other.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please put the dark copy...
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Do you have an ERN number?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that it's appearing on our screen. If you
3 put it on the ELMO so that we could compare the ERN numbers. Yes. That
4 copy is now on the ELMO. Could you please move it so that we can see the
5 top of the page. If you would move a bit more downwards. I still cannot
6 see the top of the page. Please -- yes. There is -- am I correct in my
7 understanding, Ms. Philpott, that there's no ERN number on the top of that
9 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] That's correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other ERN number visible on this very
12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour. The bottom
13 right-hand corner.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put that on the ELMO.
15 Yes, that's a different... I notice on my screen that at the
16 bottom right-hand corner, I have 0028341, and I think the last number is
17 an 8 as well. Could you confirm that, Ms. Philpott?
18 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, that's correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please leave this document on the ELMO and
20 keep the other copy, for the time being, away from the witness.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE:
23 Q. Mr. Dzonko, you told us that you recognised your signature on the
24 bottom left-hand corner of that document. You also said that you saw
25 there a date. What is the date?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you instruct the one who is
2 manipulating the ELMO in Sarajevo to zoom in on the left bottom corner so
3 that we can see it better.
4 MR. IERACE: The ELMO is now zooming in, but we are seeing the
5 centre part of the document. Could the document please be manipulated so
6 that the bottom left-hand corner is placed in the middle of the screen.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I apologise. Your Honour, may I
8 please just say that the document that the witness was first looking at
9 was the other copy, which is bearing a different ERN number.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear to us now. This might cause
11 Mr. Ierace to repeat perhaps his last questions.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you be bear with me for a
13 minute, because I think that I observed another document in the possession
14 of Ms. -- of the registrar. The other document, I wonder if that could be
15 placed on the ELMO. The one that is not as dark. And perhaps the camera
16 could be zoomed back. All right. In the top right-hand corner, is there
17 the ERN number 0036-1011?
18 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] That's correct.
19 MR. IERACE: All right.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand, Mr. Ierace, that we are now working
21 with a third document of the same document?
22 MR. IERACE: It seems that way, Mr. President, and I don't know
23 where the earlier copy came from. The one which is on the screen now is
24 the one I have, which has the darker area.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the one we have. And what copy does
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin have?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question,
3 was it in plural or in singular?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever copies you have. We have just been
5 handing out, and I'll just give you the information --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have received --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we just got 0020-8842, ERN
8 number. We just saw on the screen that, in Sarajevo, there was a very
9 black copy, 0028-3418 ERN number in the down right-hand corner of the
10 document. And there is now a third document with an ERN number, vertical
11 on the right top corner, which I was not able to follow immediately the
12 number, but it ended by 11. Which of these three do you have? Perhaps
13 refer to the last two digits.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to enlighten the
15 Prosecution. There are only two documents, but three ERN numbers. The
16 document that you consider to be the most legible is the one 0020-8842.
17 This is the document that we received only this morning and the document
18 that we object to.
19 The document that has two ERN numbers, which considerably
20 simplifies things, is the document which we had the opportunity to see a
21 moment ago on the screen, the number being 002 -- I think 3, 44, again I
22 think 3. The copy is so poor that I'm not sure. The document that I
23 submitted to you a moment ago in order to clarify the matters is a
24 document which bears also another number. You will see it on the
25 document. There's the first number and the second number, which is
1 0036-1010. So we have two documents, one of them having two numbers, only
2 one of the numbers being legible. And another one with a third number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think that it matters that
5 there are versions which have different ERN numbers. The explanation for
6 the ERN number which appears in the top right-hand corner of the copy on
7 the ELMO at the moment is that it was attached to a statement by the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: And it consecutively followed on from the ERN numbers
11 of that statement. In that statement -- perhaps I should leave it at that
12 in the presence of the witness, Mr. President. My basic point is I don't
13 think its of any consequence, and perhaps if I could continue with the
14 questioning I could take the witness to the relevant issue and perhaps
15 give an explanation later.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'd like to know for certain what document
17 you're using when putting questions to the witness. Because I thought it
18 would be the clearer copy, and it then turned out, when I had difficulties
19 in following your line of questioning, especially on the left bottom part
20 of the dates and signatures, I had difficulties in following your
21 questioning. So therefore, I would say that you have to be quite clear on
22 what document you're using and provide the Chamber with that document.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if we can turn off the witness's
24 ability to hear what I'm about to say, I can give you a very brief
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask -- first of all, indicate to the
2 Registry in Sarajevo that we might turn off the sound for you in a moment
3 in order to discuss legal technical matters that have been raised, and
4 we'll be in touch with you again soon.
5 May I then ask whether it's possible - I'm asking this to the
6 technical booth - to --
7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour, I have removed the
8 headset from the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that -- when the headset is removed,
10 Ms. Philpott, could you confirm to us that without the headset, you cannot
11 hear what words are spoken in The Hague?
12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So we still have the picture on our screen of
14 Sarajevo. We can see that the witness is not wearing at this moment a
16 Then please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly to put this issue in its
18 proper perspective, what we're dealing with is simply a letter of
19 discharge in relation to this witness. Nothing more than that. The
20 witness made a statement to an investigator of the Office of the
21 Prosecutor on the 13th of November, 1995. And I anticipate that the
22 witness will give evidence that the date which appears above his signature
23 in the bottom left-hand corner of the copy in front of him, is the 13th of
24 November. In other words, he signed it on the occasion of him making a
25 statement to the Prosecutor.
1 JUDGE ORIE: My problem, Mr. Ierace, is that I have a copy in
2 front of me which bears, in the left bottom corner, not something that
3 seems to be the signature of the witness, nor a date.
4 MR. IERACE: I'm coming to that, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you will remember I earlier said that
7 there was a mission to Sarajevo to obtain more legible copies --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: -- of medical reports. The legible or more legible
10 version that you have is a product of that mission. One would not expect
11 the copy held by the hospital to have the signature of the -- of this
12 witness and the date, because, of course, he made that on a copy which was
13 retained by the Office of the Prosecutor. That's why I'm taking him to
14 these particulars on the poorer quality version, simply to link him to the
15 letter of discharge. We then go from the poor quality one, having
16 established that link, to the better quality one. But my overall point is
17 that it has taken us a lot of time, and really what this really comes down
18 to is simply linking him to this document, which in any event carries
19 legibly his name, the nature of the document, and his date of admission.
20 So perhaps I could, in a short form, accelerate this process and
21 leave it at that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You -- yes, but whatever -- I'm not saying that you
23 would not be allowed to do so, Mr. Ierace. If you are putting questions
24 to the witness on the basis of a bad quality, even if it's just in order
25 to link him to the better legible copy, we would like to be able to follow
1 your questions and what the witness's answers are and to see whether we
2 can with our own eyes see that if you're asking about a date, that there
3 is a date on that document. And we don't have a copy.
4 Do you have any copies of the -- I mean, even if you would tender
5 both the bad and the good copy, just in order to...
6 MR. IERACE: I apologise for that, Mr. President. I thought that
7 all of the poorer quality ones, that is the ones which had the black area,
8 carried the signature and the date.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The better -- yes, the poorer one. But we didn't
10 have the poorer one. We returned it.
11 MR. IERACE: I understand, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So we just have the --
13 MR. IERACE: I understand how the confusion came about.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just keep the copy for a second so that we
17 can follow your questioning. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott could arrange for the witness's
19 headphones to be replaced.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 Perhaps wait for one second, Ms. Philpott.
22 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your
24 permission, I should like to intervene in response to what Mr. Ierace has
25 just indicated. First of all, because we cannot verify whether the system
1 is working, the ERN number that Mr. Ierace stated, the one that we can
2 read on the second document, I should like Mr. Ierace to read it out so
3 that we know exactly what number we are talking about. If I understand
4 the issue correctly, the witness was asked to sign a document of this
5 kind, that is, a document which was totally illegible. And thirdly, the
6 reason why we have been asking for original documents is simply because,
7 if we're going to have to work with two copies, with three numbers, it is
8 going to be very difficult. The originals simplify things, and we believe
9 that they should be found somewhere, as we have seen in the case of
10 Witness Besic, the other day. Let us not waste any more time. Let us
11 have this cleared up.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Prosecution is not able to at
13 this very moment, if I do understand them well, to produce the original
14 copy of this -- the original of this document. And we all are aware there
15 are two different copies, one I would say the black box, and the other one
16 major parts illegible. The black-box one appears to have a signature and
17 a date on it. The other one has not. And for the time being, we'll
18 proceed on the basis of these copies available to the Prosecution, to the
19 Defence, and to the Chamber.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness could have his headphones back.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. IERACE:
24 Q. Mr. Dzonko, would you please look at the bottom left-hand corner
25 of the document that you looked at earlier. For the record, that is
1 Exhibit P2771.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] May I have the ERN number, please,
3 Mr. Ierace, just to be sure.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're creating problems, Mr. Ierace. You said
5 2771, but that's, of course, the well-legible copy, and the other copies,
6 as far as I can see, have no numbers on it.
7 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So let me just perhaps assist you in instructing the
9 Registry in Sarajevo to put on the ELMO a document which has in the right
10 top corner, but vertically, the ERN number 0036-1011.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 MR. IERACE: Again, I would ask that the ELMO zoom in on the
13 bottom left-hand corner.
14 Thank you. Yes. If you can just stop there.
15 Q. Mr. Dzonko, what is the date -- first of all, can you point to
16 your signature, please, on the document.
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. What is the date which appears on the document near your
20 A. The 13th of November.
21 Q. Is that your writing?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many statements have you made to investigators of the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. For the
2 transcript, the witness placed his picture in between three signatures,
3 one which is ascendant and clear, and the other is lower down. Now, for
4 the purposes of the transcript, for the record, may we describe exactly
5 the position in which the witness indicated that his signature was to be
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just do it briefly. The witness pointed at a
8 signature on the same height as 13-11. That's the second box from above,
9 left-hand side, at the left bottom corner of the document.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: I withdraw the earlier question.
12 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you remember when you placed your signature on that
14 A. [No Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you remember when you placed your signature on that
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but the French
19 translation and at the bottom of the transcript, we have another
20 signature. I am very sorry. But could this be put right in the French
21 transcript. Thank you in advance.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot see the French transcript, but may I ask
23 specific attention for the preparation of the French transcript, if
24 necessary even to listen to what has been originally said, and that it
25 appears properly in the French transcript.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Mr. Dzonko, I apologise, we did not hear your answer. I will ask
4 the question again. Do you remember when you placed your signature on
5 this document?
6 A. I can't remember when it was.
7 Q. How many times have you given or signed a statement for
8 investigators of the Tribunal's Prosecution office?
9 A. I don't know that either. Whenever I went, I would sign.
10 Q. In what year did you first sign a statement for an investigator
11 from the Prosecutor at the Tribunal?
12 A. I can't remember that either.
13 Q. Whenever that was, did you give any papers to the investigator?
14 A. No, I didn't. No papers of any kind.
15 Q. Now that you have looked at the document in front of you for a
16 longer period of time, I ask you this question: Apart from ten days ago,
17 do you remember having seen this document before?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, but as we
20 presented two documents with different numbers and showed them to the
21 witness, could Mr. Ierace say what document he's referring to now. Could
22 he specify, please. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please do so, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm referring to the document on which
25 the witness has identified his signature.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Mr. Dzonko, do you remember -- I withdraw the last question. Do
4 you remember why you signed this document?
5 A. Well, what shall I say? I signed.
6 Q. Could you please -- I'll ask the question again. Do you remember
7 why you signed this document? In other words, what the reason was that
8 you signed it, and also, I should add, placed the date of the 13th of
9 November on it?
10 A. Well, I don't know. I can't remember why.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I won't take that issue any further.
12 Q. Mr. Dzonko, you have earlier pointed out to us from photographs an
13 area which was controlled by Serb forces on the occasion that you were
14 shot. What part of Sarajevo is that, that is, the area controlled by Serb
15 forces which you could see through the gap between the buildings?
16 A. It's called Nedzarici. That's it. And then Stupsko Brdo is down
17 there. And then the Lukavica road continues on down there. But where the
18 building is, that is Nedzarici.
19 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown again on our ELMO here and
20 on the ELMO in Sarajevo photograph 35 from Exhibit 3279T.
21 Q. Mr. Dzonko, earlier you identified the gap between the two
22 buildings that stood between your apartment and the Serb-controlled area.
23 You identified the gap as appearing, in this photograph, towards the
24 centre of the photograph.
25 In relation to the buildings on either side of the gap, in
1 mid-1994, that is, around the time you were shot, did anyone live in those
2 buildings, that is, the buildings on either side of the gap and in front
3 of your apartment?
4 A. Yes. In front of our apartment, there was another building, but
5 nobody lived on that side of the building, just the side of the building
6 that our building was on. We weren't allowed to look at that passageway,
7 but to the left and right of the passageway, it was free because it was
8 protected by this building. So it was only where I lived that you could
9 see right down there between -- in the space between the two buildings.
10 Q. Thank you for that.
11 Now, you've told us about the difficulties you had in entering and
12 departing your building from the front entrance. I think you said you
13 used the front entrance only at night to find water --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- to collect water.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you left the building, other than nighttime, did you walk on
18 the surface or in some other means? Did you cross ground by some other
20 A. Well, during the daytime [as interpreted], we would get through on
21 the opposite side. They broke down one apartment, and we could go that
22 way. But during the daytime, we didn't dare go out. We didn't dare go
23 into this passage.
24 Q. Clearly on the night you were shot you had access to electricity
25 because you told us the television was on. Were there times in 1993 and
1 1994 when you did not have power?
2 A. Well, there wasn't any electric power all the time, just when it
3 was this world football championships. That's when they let us have some
4 electricity for a day or two, and that was the last day of those football
5 matches. It was the world championship, so we had electricity then, but
6 otherwise, we didn't.
7 Q. How did you -- I withdraw that. Did your apartment have an
8 elevator, that is, your apartment block?
9 A. Yes, it did.
10 Q. How did you get water up to your apartment when there was no
12 A. We used the stairs.
13 Q. Were there times when you took shelter elsewhere in the apartment
14 block from fire, in particular, shelling?
15 A. Well, you could only go through the other side, the -- from the
16 other room where it was protected. Because otherwise, there could be a
17 stray bullet.
18 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. May I just ask you whether
20 you'd -- these documents, are you going finally to tender any or all of
21 them in evidence? So I think it's good to know before we start the
23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I will seek to tender them on
24 the basis that the witness has said he received a letter of discharge from
25 the hospital when he left. The document speaks for itself. It identifies
1 the witness, his year of birth, his date of admission, the name of the
2 hospital, and the nature of the document, all of which are consistent with
3 the witness's evidence. The witness identifies his signature on a
4 photocopy of the document, although he no longer recollects why he placed
5 his signature there or when he placed it there or what the purpose of the
6 signature on the document was.
7 The more legible copy is admissible on the basis that a comparison
8 with the less legible copy reveals it to be the same document, but in a
9 more legible form.
10 Having regard to my earlier observations as to the relevance of
11 this material, while I say it is admissible and it is of assistance to the
12 Trial Chamber, I simply make clear that I take the view that it does not
13 diminish -- if it is not accepted into evidence, the evidence of the
14 witness is not diminished by that. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't hear you refer to the diagnosis parts,
16 neither on the top or on the bottom. Would you seek to rely on that as
18 MR. IERACE: Even on the more legible version, little of the
19 diagnosis part is comprehensible. When one has regard to the translation
20 of that bottom part into the English language, it's only every occasional
21 word that is decipherable. There are references to body parts in
22 decipherable words which are consistent with the area of injury, but I
23 appreciate that that's as far as it goes. It may be that the Trial
24 Chamber takes the view that part of the document is not admissible, and I
25 accept that, clearly. Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to
3 cross-examine the witness?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will be
5 ready, but before we go ahead - and thank you for asking - I would just
6 like to remind you of the fact that the Defence is categorically opposed
7 to admittance into evidence of the two documents, both of them, the one
8 that the witness had in his hand, and the other because, for the moment,
9 Mr. Ierace is tendering one. That's the first point.
10 The second point is that we are opposed to it all the more so as
11 the only thing that we can see is the witness was visited by a
12 gynecologist. Now, this is a little troubling. We see that at the
13 bottom, the doctor is a gynecologist, which is a little disquieting. So
14 we're not certain what happened to this witness, and as to the diagnosis,
15 it is essential to have one.
16 So until we have these two documents, it would be blinding to
17 justice and the Defence, so -- and it would mislead us. So do you want us
18 to commence the cross-examination now, Mr. President? What I wanted to
19 know really was whether the documents are admitted into evidence or not,
20 in light of what you said a moment ago. If they are not admitted, then
21 the position of the Defence is clear. If they are admitted, we shall have
22 to accept it.
23 But we would like to hear the ruling before we go ahead with the
24 cross-examination. Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked for a decision. Of
2 course, you could -- if we give a decision now, we do not know whatever
3 will come up during cross-examination so it would be a provisional
4 decision to that extent. Of course, we are not on a jury trial here where
5 you keep away from a jury a document or not.
6 Let me first tell you that it's the understanding of the Chamber
7 that Mr. Ierace tenders both the signed copy and the best legible copy.
8 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So I think that there's some misunderstanding as far
10 as what will be tendered. The provisional decision of this Chamber is
11 that the form as such, especially the upper part, let's say, where it
12 comes from and even some of the stamps, are clearly legible, that the
13 diagnosis part, especially the middle part, is not legible. But just to
14 give you an example, the name of the witness appears quite clear on the
15 document; the date of birth, just the year, is quite legible; the date of
16 admission is quite legible, and the date of discharge also seems to be
17 quite legible.
18 So this Chamber provisionally decides that this document or these
19 documents are admissible in evidence, but only to the limited purpose of
20 establishing from the upper part, which is clearly legible in its content,
21 in its context, and I gave you a few examples of that just a minute ago,
22 so if this is of guidance when cross-examining the witness, please
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your ruling,
25 Mr. President.
1 May I now address - or do I do it through you, Mr. President -
2 Ms. Philpott, who was standing next to the witness in Sarajevo? May I
3 address her directly, speak to her directly?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you give her instructions, you may do it
5 directly in order to save time.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 Ms. Philpott, I know that you're well able to follow French, and
8 this will be in French, so would you please place on the ELMO next to the
9 witness Document Number ERN 0020-8842, please. It is the document which
10 is the clearer of the two copies, I think. And it also has a provisional
11 number, P for Prosecution, 2771. 2771, P.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I'm sorry, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do
13 not have a document with that ERN number.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President [In English] Not
15 a problem. Thank you very much for this information indeed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please have it...
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are going to
18 have to work with the exhibit on the screen. But in the meantime, let me
19 say good morning to the witness.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me, Witness?
22 A. I can hear you, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Witness, we are now going to enable you to see
24 something on your screen. It is a document that has just appeared on our
25 own screens. Can you see the document, too, Witness?
1 A. I can, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Is it a document with the following number at the top,
3 and that number is 20-8842. Is that the number of the document?
4 A. I can't see it very well.
5 Q. All right. Witness, would you now please point, with your finger,
6 to the square where it says in the Serbian language, I think, the date of
7 discharge, the date you left.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the document is on The Hague ELMO
9 where the witness is not able to point at.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I know. But I thought we
11 could ask Ms. Philpott to indicate this to the witness. But I'll proceed
12 in a different way. Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, can you see on the document you have before you, in the
14 central part of the first square, a rectangle in the first box where it
15 says, in Serbian, the word "Filijala"?
16 A. I can't say see that.
17 Q. All right. Witness, now could you count eight boxes down the
18 page, on the left-hand side, from top to bottom, and stop yourself in the
19 eighth box or rectangle, moving from top to bottom.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, wouldn't it be a good idea to zoom
21 in specifically on those parts you'd like to show to the witness.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can zoom in, yes. Thank
24 Q. Witness, can you now see the box, the space in front of you?
25 A. I can see it, yes.
1 Q. And do you see a first date?
2 A. I can see it, yes.
3 Q. Could you read it out, please, Witness. If you cannot, then tell
5 A. I can't see it very well. There's a 1. I can see a 1. I can't
6 see it well enough.
7 Q. All right. Thank you. You're not able to read the year either,
8 are you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Would you now read out,
11 Witness, please, what it says, that is to say, the first digit in Arabic
12 letters in the inferior part, right below, and we've zoomed in on it.
13 Could you read what the first digit is down below that.
14 A. I can't see it well enough.
15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I'm now going to ask the
16 technical booth to zoom in to the right-hand side.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Zoom right, please. Thank you,
18 a little bit more. Move right. Thank you. Stop.
19 Q. Witness, it says -- you have here a box, a rectangular one, and
20 there's a printed inscription inside. Can you see that box with the
21 printed letters? The first word is "Adresa." Can you see where it says
22 "Adresa" typed in?
23 A. You mean in the middle here?
24 Q. Yes, that's it. Witness, as you can see it --
25 A. It says "Mjesto." "Mjesto" and the date.
1 Q. Now, Witness, underneath that box where you've just read out the
2 word "Mjesto," there's another box, and then a third box with some typing,
3 some typewritten words in it. Can you see that third box?
4 A. "Adresa," you mean?
5 Q. Yes, that's right. Now, Witness, would you please read out, loud
6 and clear, the words that have been typed in in that box.
7 A. Well, I haven't got my glasses with me, and I can't read it. I
8 can't see well enough to read.
9 Q. Witness, when you came to this examination, didn't you think that
10 you would probably have documents to read?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Nobody told you that if you cannot see very well --
13 A. I have problems with my sight.
14 Q. But do you have your glasses with you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Witness, when you signed your statement, did you have your
18 A. No.
19 Q. Witness, when you signed this document in this obscure version,
20 did you have your glasses with you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Witness, at the time you signed this document, were you asked to
23 read this document before signing it?
24 A. They read it out to me.
25 Q. Witness, can you verify -- so they asked you to read this obscure
1 document, the one that you have in front of you?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Witness, the document that you signed is the document that was
4 read out to you.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was it? What do you mean when you say "they"?
7 A. I beg your pardon?
8 Q. You told us that "they" had read it out to you. Who do you have
9 in mind? Who did you mean when you said "they"?
10 A. My daughter was there.
11 Q. Witness, when you say "they," "they came," who do you have in
13 A. My daughter was here.
14 Q. Witness, I understand that your daughter was there. But apart
15 from your daughter, the individuals who read the document out to you, who
16 were they?
17 A. The people who were here.
18 Q. Yes. But who were they?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that my friend indicate to the
21 witness what he means by the words "the document."
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have referred to
23 different documents while questioning before. You referred to the
24 statement of the witness, you referred to other documents as well. Would
25 you please be very clear in when you're talking about a document.
1 But apart from that --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Absolutely sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think since we interrupted the cross-examination
4 anyhow, it's time for a break of 20 minutes.
5 Mr. Dzonko, we'll have a break for 20 minutes, and then we'll
6 continue. So we'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00 local time in
7 The Hague.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before my learned colleague
12 resumes his cross-examination --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry, one moment, please. I saw that General
14 Galic was not yet in the courtroom. Please proceed.
15 MR. IERACE: Before my learned colleague resumes his
16 cross-examination, I seek to inform the Trial Chamber that the Defence and
17 Prosecution have agreed to a change in the order of the videolink
18 witnesses. Instead of Fatima Pita following Marko Kapetanovic and Ramiza
19 Kundo, Fatima Pita will now follow Kapetanovic.
20 Mr. President, it's also clear, I think, that we are unlikely to
21 finish the videolink witnesses by Thursday. Perhaps it would be prudent
22 to inquire as to whether we could extend into Friday with videolink. The
23 reason for the change is that Mr. Mundis will be taking Fatima Pita, and
24 he is not available after tomorrow. If Fatima Pita is not concluded by
25 tomorrow, then I will, with the leave of the Trial Chamber, take over the
1 relevant part of the Prosecutor's role in relation to her evidence from
2 Thursday morning.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for informing the
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness, can you hear me once again?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, let me go back to the document which you had
11 on your -- on the screen a moment ago. That is the document bearing the
12 number P2771. If necessary, we can perhaps ask at the same time that it
13 be put on the ELMO.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, the document that
15 you see here, the one that you have in your hand and which was submitted
16 to the witness, the one with the signatures.
17 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
18 Q. Witness - yes, we can perfectly see it now. Thank you. Witness,
19 can you see this document in front of you? I think that you --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I think you have it in the other version as well. You said a
22 moment ago that they had read it out to you. Who did you have in mind
23 when you said "they"?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this gets back to the objection I made
1 just before the break when I asked that Mr. Piletta-Zanin clarify first
2 which document he was referring to, because he referred to statements as
3 well as the medical discharge summary. And the question he has just asked
4 makes a presumption in that regard. I ask that he first clarifies with
5 the witness which document was read to him, whether it was this document
6 or his statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do that,
9 Mr. President. Now we are talking about the document that I had put on
10 the ELMO, and the references of which I have just provided.
11 Q. Witness, with respect to this document, the one which is in front
12 of you and which you can see on the screen, whose number is P2771, did you
13 state the following: "They read it out to me"? That is my first
15 A. When I was here, a woman read the document for me because I have
16 -- I read with difficulty generally speaking, so I couldn't make out
17 everything that was written on it.
18 Q. Witness, you are telling me now that you signed the document, but
19 that you did not read it. Is that your testimony?
20 A. I asked her to read it out for me because I couldn't see it very
22 Q. Witness, when you signed this document, the document was read out
23 to you. Was that the case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I should like to know whether the entire document was read out to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Witness, did they also read the entire diagnosis, which can be
4 found at the bottom of the document?
5 A. Which diagnosis? Of my wound? Is that what you mean?
6 Q. Yes, in all likelihood in relation to the wound that you had
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Witness, at the time, were you able to understand the diagnosis as
10 it was read out to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Witness, am I correct in understanding that the document was read
13 out to you, and that the reading of the document was comprehensible? Was
14 that the case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Witness, the person or the persons who had read out this document,
17 did they have any other document with them in their hands?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So they only had this document, the one that we are currently
20 discussing, P2771?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was that document of the same quality as the one that you now have
23 in front of you and that you can see on the screen?
24 A. Yes, what we saw just a moment ago on the screen.
25 Q. I'm talking about the document that is now on the screen.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the document be zoomed out so that we have a --
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your
4 assistance, Mr. President.
5 Q. Witness, we are talking about this particular document. Am I
7 A. Yes, yes. This one.
8 Q. Thank you very much for your answer.
9 Since you told us that everything was comprehensible, that is, the
10 text that you were shown, I should now like the technicians to move down
11 to the bottom left side, the bottom left box of the document, if it is
12 possible. And to focus, to zoom in --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] We would like to have zoom on the
14 left corner. Yeah, correct. Thank you very much indeed. Stop here,
15 please. Stop here, please. That will be right.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you read the text which is written
17 under the first signature, the first one which we can see under this box?
18 There is the first signature which spills over to the adjacent box, and
19 will you please read out for us the text that you can see underneath.
20 A. You mean where my signature is?
21 Q. I cannot see what you're pointing at, Witness. But there is a
22 signature in this box that you can see. There is a very big first letter
23 which sort of leans towards right, and there is a typed-out text
24 underneath. Can you please read that text for us?
25 A. I can see the text, but I cannot read it. I cannot make it out.
1 Q. At the time you signed this document, you didn't have your glasses
2 with you. Am I right?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Can you now read out for us the text that is written under this
5 large signature?
6 A. The 13th of November, my name and surname; Dzonko Rasid.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. Were you ever examined by a gynecologist?
8 And I apologise for the question.
9 A. At the hospital?
10 Q. Have you ever been examined by a gynecologist? In hospital, yes.
11 A. There were several physicians. I don't know what they were
12 specialised in. There were several of them.
13 Q. Witness, do you know whether the physician who examined you was a
14 gynecologist or not?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. Let me move on to a
17 different subject.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for one and
19 simple reason, because we are not able to read what is contained in this
20 document, we cannot see whether this document is signed by a gynecologist
21 really concerns this patient. It is the quality of the document that is
22 hampering my intentions in this respect.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.
24 We didn't get it.
25 A. Here in Sarajevo?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Yes.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: The interpreter in the English language indicated
6 that she did not get Mr. Piletta-Zanin's question. And therefore, we have
7 an answer in response to no question. So perhaps he could repeat the
8 question for the benefit of the transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was following the French channel, so I didn't
10 notice that the transcript says that the question should be repeated.
11 Please, would you do so.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
13 was going to -- I was about to ask the Prosecution to follow the French
14 channel. But I'll be happy to repeat my question.
15 Q. Witness, can you confirm that you did give a written statement in
16 Sarajevo. Can you confirm that for us?
17 A. I don't know. I cannot remember when that was. I don't know. It
18 was years ago.
19 Q. Witness, I'm not interested in the date; I'm just interested in
20 your giving the statement. Do you remember giving a statement?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Witness, when the OTP investigators came to videorecord your
23 apartment, do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Do you remember when that was?
1 A. I don't know. I have forgotten that, too.
2 Q. What time of the year was it?
3 A. For the statement? I don't know. I don't know which year.
4 Q. Sir, I'm talking about the videotape, the film in which you
5 figure. When was that filmed; in what period of the year?
6 A. Last year, sometime in the spring.
7 Q. Witness, did they ask you at that time to confirm your previous
9 A. I don't remember that.
10 Q. Witness, a moment ago, you read us a date, the 13th of November.
11 Is that correct? Was that date on the document that you saw on the
12 screen? Can you confirm that, please.
13 A. You mean what I signed?
14 Q. Yes. Quite correct. Can you confirm what you just said?
15 A. I don't know what. What do you want me to confirm?
16 Q. Take your time, Witness.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help us
18 [In English] We need to have the same document on the ELMO.
19 [Interpretation] Yes, that's the one.
20 Q. Witness, I can now see the document. A moment ago, you read a
21 date, the 13th of November, and your name next to it. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Yes, please go on.
24 A. But I don't know which year.
25 Q. Very well. In response to a question put to you by the
1 Prosecutor, you stated some time ago that you had seen the document ten
2 days ago. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. Witness, can you explain to us, how is it possible
5 that we have the date of the 13th of November, whatever the year was,
6 whereas today is the 19th of March, how is it possible that you saw a
7 document of this kind only ten days ago?
8 A. I just signed it.
9 Q. Witness, the date that you can see on the document, the 13th of
10 November, the document in respect of which you say that you saw it only
11 ten days ago, was this also written in your hand?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, since we have a very important problem with the dates, is
14 it possible that someone asked you to write down this date here?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness.
17 Witness, I'm going to help you. Do you know whether in the course
18 of the month of November 1994, 9-4, 1994, that you gave a statement at the
19 OTP -- for the OTP?
20 A. It's possible, because I don't know how many times.
21 Q. All right. Witness, you said a moment ago that you lived in the
22 area of Trnovo, the district of Trnovo. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, I lived in Trnovo, and I live in Sarajevo now.
24 Q. Thank you for specifying. You said that you left Trnovo at the
25 beginning of the conflict. Is that right?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 Witness, do you know if at the beginning of the conflict, and to
4 be more specific, towards July and August 1992, 9-2, important fighting
5 took place in Trnovo between at least two factions that were there? Are
6 you aware of that?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer.
9 Now, is it true, on the other hand, that Trnovo was bombed by
10 both of the two camps during the fighting?
11 A. Well, there was shelling, and we had to flee from the shelling.
12 But our side didn't have any weapons, and they didn't do the shelling.
13 They targeted us from up above, targeted our houses, from tanks and
14 mortars, Howitzers, for three days and three nights, and we had to flee.
15 We had to escape.
16 Q. Thank you for your answer.
17 Now, Witness, isn't it true that the Muslim forces recaptured
19 A. Two months later, two months after that, the Muslims took over,
20 took control.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness.
22 Would I be right in saying that in the region, important fighting
23 took place throughout this time? There was a lot of fighting; would that
24 be true?
25 A. Well, yes, there was.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer.
2 Let me now move on to another question pertaining to your family.
3 You said that when you were wounded, three of your daughters were with you
4 or were living with you in the Sarajevo apartment. Could you tell us,
5 please, the names - first and last names - of those three individuals.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think that's the evidence,
7 that is, that his three daughters were living with him in that apartment.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please, then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, specify.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I will
11 specify. I don't know if the witness can hear what I'm saying now - this
12 is a slight technical problem - but --
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you just guide us to the spot where it is in the
14 testimony, yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to have to take a
16 little time in order to do so, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you help us, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Yes. Page 14, line 7.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm just looking for it.
21 Yes, I can see that the witness actually said that he was at that
22 moment with his three daughters in the apartment.
23 MR. IERACE: And also page 19, line 18.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't see the problem. I
25 just wanted to ask the witness to confirm that he had three daughters, and
1 that he would give us the names of those three daughters, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, then it must be a translation
3 problem. I think you're referring to the three daughters living with the
4 witness, of which you'd like to have the name. Let me just check.
5 Your question was: "You said that when you were wounded, three of
6 your daughters were with you or were living with you in the Sarajevo
7 apartment. Could you tell us, please, the names." So you are implying
8 that they might have been with him or might have been living with him.
9 And I think the objection of Mr. Ierace is that the testimony was just
10 that they were with him and not were living with him.
11 I don't think it's a -- unless it turns out to be a major problem,
12 so let's not spend too much time on it. Could you please rephrase your
13 question and continue.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank
16 Q. Witness, when you were wounded, you were with your three
17 daughters. Is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, is it correct that at the time you were
20 living with at least one of your daughters? Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you give us her name, her full name, please.
23 A. Mediha Gojo [phoen].
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm checking the transcript,
25 Mr. President. I think the name is Golo.
1 Q. Could you repeat it for the transcript, Witness. Could you repeat
2 the surname. Is it Golo?
3 A. Yes, Golo.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the English transcript,
6 the name is Golo, G-O-L-O.
7 Q. Witness, let me go back to what your daughter could have said in a
8 statement, but I'll come back to that later. Now I'd like to concentrate
9 on your own statement. You said that you were living at the time about 50
10 metres from the front line. Is that right? Is that what you said?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, how was this front line apparent? That is to
13 say, what did it consist of? What were the material facets of the front
14 line physically?
15 A. Well, we didn't dare go there. We just kept to this side. I
16 never actually saw it. All I knew was that shooting was coming from that
18 Q. All right, Witness. So you were living in that apartment
19 throughout, shall we say, the autumn of 1992 and to the end of the summer
20 of 1994. Would that be correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. At the time, perhaps even at night, did you see the
23 front line physically, which was 50 metres from your apartment, or not?
24 A. No, I didn't see anything. I only saw once when the liberation
25 came and when peace was signed.
1 Q. All right. Well, let's go back to the liberation time. Where and
2 how was the front line built up which was 50 metres from your apartment,
3 as you said?
4 A. I don't know. There was some sort of bunkers there, and the army
5 was in those -- the soldiers were in those bunkers. Several houses, this
6 row of houses, that was the front line, the enemy front line. And I can
7 say that because I saw it when we dared go there.
8 Q. Thank you for the answer.
9 Now, you said "houses." Witness, were they residential houses?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me repeat
11 my question.
12 Q. Witness, can you hear me?
13 A. Yes, I can hear you.
14 Q. Thank you. You mentioned houses that made up the front line.
15 Were they residential homes, residential houses, Witness?
16 A. Yes, residential, but that's where the army was. There were no
17 civilians there. So this was the border, the line, the front line, and
18 that belonged to the army, the army held it. And there were bunkers in
19 those houses, several of the house were destroyed and there were bunkers
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, I think I'm going
22 to need your assistance once again. Could we please place on the ELMO a
23 photograph numbered 35. It's the same number, the 0012-12/35. That's the
24 end number. The end digits are 3-5.
25 Q. Witness, you're going to see a photograph. Let me check it. Yes,
1 that's the right one. It's on the screen. Can you see the photograph in
2 front of you, Witness?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Thank you. On the right-hand side of the buildings, on the
5 right-hand side of the photograph, there are some buildings, and they seem
6 to be considerably damaged.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And now the highest point above those buildings seems to be in a
9 worse situation than the others. Now, you told us a moment ago, Witness,
10 that there was a residential block which is where the army was. Was it
11 these blocks here? Are those the blocks?
12 A. No, the small buildings. I mean the small buildings by the
13 passageway between the buildings. But on the right-hand side, that was
14 the -- damaged most, and it was through that passageway -- it was that
15 passageway that they targeted most.
16 Q. I was listening to what you were saying in Serbian, and you said
17 that the army, the soldiers were in the passageway somewhere, that you
18 indicated to us a moment ago. Is that right?
19 A. Whose army? Whose soldiers?
20 Q. The Serb. The Serb soldiers. It's up to you to say, Witness.
21 It's up to you to tell me, Witness.
22 A. Well, in the passageway and down where the small private houses
23 were, that was where the Serb army was, where the Serb soldiers were,
24 whereas in these buildings here, they weren't there.
25 Q. All right. Now, who was opposite the Serbian army in the
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. One moment, please.
4 MR. IERACE: There are a number of confusing elements that have
5 emerged in the last page, at least one of them, according to the English
6 transcription, is a result of a proposition being put to the witness on
7 the basis that he had said it earlier, and in the English translation he
8 hadn't. We now have a situation in relation to the passage, something
9 about soldiers in the passageway. I anticipate that there is confusion in
10 the mind of the witness in relation to what is meant by "the passageway,"
11 in other words, whether it refers to the actual passageway or what can be
12 seen through the passageway. And I'd be grateful if that can be clarified
13 with the witness so as to avoid further confusion.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly, Mr. President.
16 Q. Witness, when you were speaking about the passage, what did you
17 mean? What passage? What were you referring to?
18 A. Well, the passageway between the two lines of buildings, but
19 nobody went that way during the war. Nobody went out onto that passage,
20 and all the residents, the tenants, in those high-rise buildings, they
21 were turned the opposite side. But nobody could live down there, nor did
22 they, and it has all been destroyed. They only lived this side. On both
23 sides of the passage, but nobody went down that way.
24 Q. Let's get things straight. I know what you mean, but it might not
25 be clear to everybody. On the screen, we have a photograph which is 1A,
1 the last digit is 1, and the letter is A. 1A.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you place
3 that photograph from the set on the ELMO and we'll go back to that one.
4 Q. Now Witness, can you see this new photograph on the screen with
5 that number? Can you see it?
6 A. Yes, I can see it.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, then, Witness, would it be correct to say that
8 this passage that we can see between the railings of your balcony is the
9 passage that you were talking about a moment ago?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, we can take that
13 photo off the screen now, please, and leave the second one there. Thank
15 Q. Now, Witness, the passage that we can see between the two blocks
16 of buildings, the blocks of high-rise buildings, it is roughly in the
17 centre of the photograph. Now, that same passage, it is that same passage
18 but taken from the opposite side. Is that right? From --
19 A. That's right, correct.
20 Q. Thank you. I think that everything has become clear now for one
21 and all.
22 A moment ago you said that it was in that passageway which is
23 opposite your balcony, or rather, that you can see from your balcony, that
24 there were soldiers. Now, which soldiers were you referring to? Which
1 A. Where the two-storey buildings were, they were Serb soldiers,
2 where the smaller houses were.
3 Q. All right. Now, opposite them, if there were soldiers, whose
4 soldiers would they be? Which soldiers would those be?
5 A. Well, I don't know. The Serb army was down there. Who was
6 there? There were bunkers. You couldn't see them.
7 Q. Witness, when you speak about people in the bunkers, do you mean
8 the Sarajevo army? Is that what you mean?
9 A. No. No. They couldn't be that army there. I don't know where it
10 was, but it wasn't there. I have no idea where they were.
11 Q. Witness, who were the people in the bunkers, then, that you
12 mentioned? Who were they?
13 A. The Serb army.
14 Q. Now, my question, Witness, is the following: Opposite the army
15 that you said was the Serb army, who was there opposite the Serb army?
16 A. Well, the buildings. There was nobody, just the buildings. They
17 were opposite them.
18 Q. There were no soldiers, Witness? Were there no soldiers opposite
19 the Serb army?
20 A. Possibly there were. I don't know. I wasn't interested where
21 they were or where our army was.
22 Q. Witness, you never saw any Bosnian soldiers as --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you now have put, I think, the
24 same question in different forms five, six times, to the witness. I think
25 the witness is not in a position to give any further answer. So please
1 proceed with some other question.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, Mr. President, am I
3 authorised to read the written statement of this witness out?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that's relevant. Of course it is.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, before I go on to my next question, your answer to me
7 several times was no. Now, I'm going to read out a passage from the
8 statement that you gave on the 13th of November, 1994, and I'm going to
9 say that the ERN number is 0103-9375. The text that I have in front of me
10 is in English, and states the following: [In English] --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: I apologise for interrupting. Before my learned
13 friend reads that, the date of the statement is in fact the 13th of
14 November, 1995, not 4.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will give you
16 the text, and you can read the number. I read out 4, and at school I was
17 taught that this was a 4, but I can provide you with the document and the
18 Trial Chamber can read the date for themselves.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is quite insisting on
20 his year and you're on yours. Is there something we have to decide,
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can provide
23 you with the document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if necessary, we'll ask you to provide it to us.
25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps it could come via me, Mr. President. That
1 might shorten this dispute.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please first show it to Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: I think I see the confusion. If this is the document
4 my friend was about to read from, that is, in fact, a statement dated the
5 29th of August, 2000. He starts off by saying: "Further to my previous
6 statement dated 13 November, 1994..." But when one goes to that
7 statement, one sees in fact that it was the 13th of November, 1995.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do we understand that you're
9 reading from a statement given in a November month or in an August month?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to
11 read the text that I have, which makes reference to the first statement of
12 the 13th of November, 1994, and the statement that seems to have been
13 taken on the 29th of August, 2000, and recognised by the witness. And
14 then I'm going to read out part of the statement dated the 13th of
15 November, 1994. But I'll start off with --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your answer is that you're reading
17 now from the August statement. Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank
20 Q. Witness, on the 29th of August, 2000, you said the following, and
21 I'm going to quote: [In English] "I would say that all of the Bosnian
22 soldiers that I saw were infantrymen."
23 [Interpretation] Witness, you've just told me that you didn't see
24 any soldiers belonging to the Bosniak army. How come, then, that you
25 stated it would appear the opposite on the 29th of August, 2000, referring
1 to your statement of the 13th of November, 1994?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzonko, did you understand the question?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you understand the question put to you by
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to see whether I could phrase the question
8 so that we get an answer from you. Mr. Dzonko, I do understand that you
9 identified in one of your earlier statements the Bosnian soldiers as being
10 infantrymen. Is that correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us where and when you saw these
13 Bosnian soldiers.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From time to time, I might see them
15 when they pass by. They had a kitchen somewhere in another building. I
16 didn't see it, I never went to that kitchen, but I would see them
17 sometimes, two or three of them, going to have breakfast or lunch when
18 there was a lull in the shooting, when there was no shooting. But I
19 didn't actually like looking.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever see them in a position opposite to where
21 you told us the Serbian soldiers were, close to the passageway you just
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I don't know which way they
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are close to a quarter to
1 2.00. Could you indicate to us how much more time you'd need for the
2 cross-examination so in order to give --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I please confer with my
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Mr. President,
7 at least one more hour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I will then check during the break on how much time
9 is still available for you. I'll do some bookkeeping but not do it now
10 right away.
11 Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two issues: Firstly, if the witness
13 is to be sent away, would you think it appropriate to ask him to come
14 tomorrow with his glasses? And secondly, is it a break that's coming up
15 or the end of the proceedings?
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, I would say a break to adjourn until tomorrow
18 MR. IERACE: Yes, in that event, I'd be grateful if you could
19 suggest to the witness he bring his glasses tomorrow. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Mr. Dzonko, we have not yet finished your examination. Would it
22 be possible for you to return tomorrow morning?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't got any glasses, and
24 I can't see with them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzonko, that would be my second question, that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 if you would return tomorrow morning to the same place, could you bring
2 your glasses?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do I need them for? I don't
4 know anything anyway.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as you may have noticed, sometimes either the
6 Prosecution or the Defence asks you to read something; and without
7 glasses, it's extremely difficult. And we hope it is better with
8 glasses. So would you please be so kind to bring your glasses tomorrow.
9 We'll see for what purpose they are needed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can only read one letter at
11 a time, one by one, and it takes me a long time to make up a word.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. And of course, if the
13 glasses will not help you, we'll then see what to do. But would you be
14 willing to bring your glasses?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can bring them, but it will
16 be the same as it is now. It will be no different than it is now. There
17 is nothing that can be different. I would do it willingly if I could, if
18 I knew how, but I don't.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't expect you to read any better right
20 away, but if you bring your glasses, perhaps for looking at the pictures
21 on the screen, or for whatever reasons, it's always handy to have them
22 with you.
23 Would you please bring them? I didn't hear your answer. I saw
24 you speaking, but I didn't hear it.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if I can come
1 tomorrow. I'm not a well man. My health isn't good. I don't know if
2 I'll be able to.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you take a rest this afternoon, and I'm
4 certain that you'll get the necessary assistance to come. It will not
5 presumably take more than one hour tomorrow. So would you please come
6 back tomorrow morning if your health allows you to do so. And I'm certain
7 that the Registry available in Sarajevo will be of your assistance to
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much in advance, Mr. Dzonko. You'll
11 be excused for now.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything else to be discussed at this very
14 moment? If not, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on
18 Wednesday, the 20th day of March, 2002,
19 at 9.00 a.m.