1 Thursday, 28 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I conveyed the

11 excuses of Mrs. Pilipovic yesterday to the Registrar. She was not sure

12 whether she would be able to attend or not, and she conveys her excuses

13 and wishes everyone all the best for the Easter holidays.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call its

15 next witness?

16 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President, we are.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And that will be?

18 MR. STAMP: Mehmed Travljanin.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

20 the courtroom.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Travljanin.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

2 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Would you --

4 may I invite you to make that declaration of which the text has just been

5 handed to you by the usher.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

9 WITNESS: MEHMED TRAVLJANIN

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Travljanin, the order is that you'll first be

12 examined by counsel for the Prosecution, then by counsel for the Defence,

13 and if it is Bench has any questions to you, we'll put them to you either

14 at the end or during your examination.

15 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President

17 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

18 Q. Mr. Travljanin, would you please state your full name for the

19 Court?

20 A. Mehmed Travljanin.

21 Q. And do you live in the city of Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. For how long have you lived there?

24 A. For 50 years.

25 Q. Are you employed? Do you have a job?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is your occupation?

3 A. I am a private entrepreneur together with a friend of mine.

4 Q. Now, did you live in Sarajevo during the period 1992 to 1995?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in that period, were you employed?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have any type of role or occupation during that period?

9 A. I did after the war. But during the war, I'm afraid I don't quite

10 understand. It's not quite clear to me what you're asking.

11 Q. Did you participate in any activity with respect to the war in

12 Sarajevo during that period, 1992 to 1995?

13 A. Well, yes, one could say so.

14 Q. In what way did you so participate?

15 A. Well, in the way of a policeman.

16 Q. And what did your functions involve being a policeman?

17 A. My functions involved the following: To assist overcoming

18 differences or disputes between people and things like that.

19 Q. Now, in 1994, did you have any other sort of occupation or

20 business?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us what it was.

23 A. It was something like a -- it's difficult to translate. A coffee

24 bar. Shall we call it a cafe, where we would get together? We could have

25 some coffee or tea, talk, things like that.

1 Q. Now, where exactly did you have this coffee bar?

2 A. Very close to the place where this disaster happened. Right next

3 to the market.

4 Q. Which disaster are you referring to?

5 A. This shell that fell there. Twenty-five metres away from where

6 the shell fell, that is where this coffee bar I'm talking about was and

7 where we would get together.

8 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask you to describe exactly where the

9 shop was. You have told us a distance, but could you tell us exactly

10 where the shop was in respect to the street or the market.

11 A. Well, looking directly from the tram lines, my shop --

12 Q. Those tram lines you speak of are the tram lines on Marsala Tita

13 Street, at the front of the market?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. If you're looking directly from those tram lines, at the

16 front of the market. Please go on.

17 A. To make it a bit clearer, it's best to explain it starting from

18 the tram lines. So facing from the tram lines, you see the marketplace.

19 And to the left is this shop. And across the way on the right-hand side,

20 about 25 metres away, is where the shell fell. And all of this is on the

21 market itself. So shall we say it covers an area of some 400 or 500

22 square metres. Something like that. Don't hold me to it.

23 Q. Let's get back to precisely what I was asking you about. Where

24 exactly in relation to the market is your shop?

25 A. On the market itself.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. On the left-hand side.

3 Q. That is the left-hand side of the market, facing the market --

4 A. When you're facing the market, from the tram lines.

5 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall the 5th of February, 1994?

6 A. Of course I do.

7 Q. And that is the date of the event you refer to as the disaster, is

8 it?

9 A. Exactly so.

10 Q. Do you recall the weather that day?

11 A. The time was just fine for that season. There was no snow. It

12 wasn't particularly cold either. If everything had been like the weather,

13 it would have been fine.

14 Q. Can you please explain to the Court what happened that day and

15 what you experienced. Could you start with at about what time did this

16 event occur.

17 A. Well, let me see. This happened about half past twelve, between

18 half past twelve and 1.00 in the afternoon. I was sitting in my shop with

19 some friends of mine, and like any other day, we were having the same kind

20 of conversations, and we heard this explosion. And it was normal for us

21 in Sarajevo in those days to hear explosions, and we would try and assess

22 even how powerful it was. Even old women knew the type of shell, whether

23 it was 62 or 155. This time it was a powerful one. The explosion was

24 very powerful.

25 We all jumped up. I looked through the window. I saw people

1 lying down. I didn't find it unusual, because in those cases, we all

2 throw ourselves on the ground. However, I saw no one getting up, or at

3 least a lot of people did not get up, and then I realised what it was.

4 We went out. It's unbelievable how quickly people arrived on the

5 spot, reporters, cameramen. And then it was terrible, terrible.

6 Q. Just tell me -- tell the Court, please, what you saw in the

7 market. What happened when you went out?

8 A. I don't know how to explain it. I can't find the words. You have

9 to see it. But parts of bodies were scattered around. Crying, howling,

10 running around. People were dragging and loading. People were vomiting.

11 What can you expect?

12 I don't know what to say. The worst thing that could have

13 happened, happened. It's difficult for a human mind to accept that such a

14 thing could happen.

15 Q. You said, "People were dragging and loading." What were the

16 people dragging and loading?

17 A. Yes. The dead, the wounded. There were few wounded. I don't

18 know exactly percentage-wise but there were quite a number of dead. They

19 said there were 67. To me it seemed to be more, but they established that

20 there were 67 dead. They were loading the dead onto trucks. There

21 weren't that many vehicles. We were short of fuel. But in such cases,

22 one finds it. Bodies were thrown one on top of another like logs, and

23 they drove them to hospital and so on.

24 Q. Now, before this explosion occurred, about how many people were in

25 the market? Could you estimate?

1 A. It's a rather difficult question. If 67 were killed, let's say --

2 Q. Stop there, please. From your observation, if any, before the

3 explosion, are you able to make an estimation as to the amount of people

4 who were in the market?

5 A. Well, there were probably 400. I couldn't tell you exactly, but

6 it was very crowded. Let's say there were 400.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. Not necessarily. That need not be correct.

9 Q. What were the -- or what was the character of the crowd there?

10 Was it civilian or military, or male or female? Was there any predominant

11 group among that crowd?

12 A. Civilians, and mostly women normally because it's a market, though

13 there were men, too, of course. But it was the centre of town. People

14 were swapping goods, buying, selling.

15 Q. Did you notice any military activity in the vicinity of the market

16 that day?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, you said that there were reporters and cameramen arriving on

19 the scene. Did they -- were there video cameramen there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did the video cameramen record the dragging and loading of the

22 wounded and the dead?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if you saw a video of what occurred, of what you saw occurred

25 that -- would you be able to identify it and speak about it?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I would ask that the

3 video designated P2278 be shown. It's a very short video.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, leave is granted.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you. Thank you very much.

7 Q. Mr. Travljanin, is the video you saw, insofar as it concerns the

8 market, a fair and accurate depiction of the removal of the dead and

9 wounded that you saw that day?

10 A. Just one comment.

11 Q. Wait. Before you comment --

12 A. And to the gentleman who is interpreting there, could he speak up

13 a little bit, please.

14 Yes, it is all clear to me, clear as daylight.

15 Q. How long did you remain at the market after the shell exploded?

16 A. Well, it is difficult to say. For about 45 minutes, perhaps one

17 hour, because I had some responsibilities, too. I did not call my wife

18 and my children immediately. And they knew that I was in the market, so I

19 had to call them and let them know that I was safe and sound. But, say,

20 45 minutes to one hour.

21 Q. What about your shop? Was it damaged or not? Did anything happen

22 to it?

23 A. No, it was not damaged. But one fragment nevertheless did get

24 through the glass and landed in the wall. It wasn't fatal, however. And

25 that is all. And I can tell you why it was so if you want to know, why

1 the shop was not destroyed. If you want to know why, I can tell you.

2 Q. Yes. Please tell us.

3 A. I don't know how much do you know, how you are familiar with that

4 shell, how it bursts when it falls and how then the spray goes. But I was

5 lucky with all that disaster because shells which then spray their

6 fragments all around, they should have -- they should have also reached my

7 shop and killed me and my friends. But it was those unfortunate -- those

8 retched people out there who saved me, because although -- all the

9 fragments that were flying towards my shop were absorbed by people, by

10 people who were alive then, and that's that.

11 Q. Do you recall any other shelling in the vicinity of the market at

12 about that time?

13 A. You mean that same day? At that same time? I don't understand.

14 Q. That day.

15 A. No. That day, I'm not aware of it. Even if there was something,

16 I wouldn't be aware of that.

17 Q. Was this the first time the market had been shelled or the

18 vicinity of the market had been shelled?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can you recall when before that the area of the market had been

21 shelled?

22 A. I do, yes. Oh, yes, I remember it very well. Before this one

23 hit, the most fatal of all, which I think was one too many for the

24 European Community -- but a similar shell hit the 22nd of December - that

25 is what the shop is called - right next to the market, to the -- on the

1 right-hand side. So my shop is on the left-hand side, and this outlet was

2 on the right-hand side, and the market is between us. And there I will

3 again say that as luck would have it - if that is luck - the shell did not

4 hit the market directly. It hit the edge of the roof. And that is what

5 saved many lives. There were dead. There were wounded. I wasn't there.

6 I don't know how many because I wasn't on the spot. I arrived later on.

7 Q. That shell you said which hit the 22nd of December building, about

8 how long before the 5th of February had it fallen? Can you give us an

9 estimated time period?

10 A. Oh, dear. Let me see. It's not -- it's difficult. I don't know

11 because things were happening all the time right there in the centre. I

12 don't know. I don't want to be wrong. Maybe I'll say perhaps 20 days,

13 but don't really hold me to it, the exact date. But let us state it was

14 some 20 days before that.

15 Q. Can you recall the -- doing a video presentation where you pointed

16 out certain spots in the market for an OTP investigator in the latter part

17 of the year 2000?

18 A. I do, yes.

19 Q. And you yourself would be on that videotape?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if you saw that tape, would you be able to identify yourself

22 and the presentation you made?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, I ask that videotape

1 P3281A be shown for the Court and the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The video may be shown.

3 [Videotape played]

4 "Could you please point to the location where, to the best of

5 your recollection, you were located at the time of the explosion of the

6 mortar at Markale Market on the 5th of February, 1994. Could you please

7 point."

8 "This is the place where I was."

9 "Could you now please walk to the location where you recall

10 seeing the mortar explode and where you saw -- later saw the crater from

11 the mortar on the 5th of February, 1994. And when you get to that

12 location, can you please stand on the spot."

13 [Indicates]

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

15 Q. Did you see yourself on that videotape?

16 A. I did, yes.

17 Q. And you pointed out the various places to the best of your

18 recollection.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. So at that time, at the time of the videotape, the area of the

21 market had been rebuilt and renovated, had it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours, Mr. President.

24 That is the end of the examination-in-chief. May it please you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.

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1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the

2 witness?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. President, but

4 may I first ask, when shall we have the break?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm inclined to say after your

6 cross-examination, taking into consideration that cross-examination takes

7 usually the same time as the examination-in-chief, but I'd say at 10.30

8 approximately.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I fully

10 agree with you that we have the break immediately after my intervention,

11 but I asked you this because this morning I wasn't able to copy all that I

12 wanted to, and, therefore, I will perhaps, if such a need arises, I will

13 need to ask for a break in order to copy it so as to be able to conduct my

14 cross-examination, of course if the Chamber allows me to do that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you need many copies, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, or --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. It is a form. I simply

17 think that I do not have enough, the sufficient number of copies. We

18 usually have nine or ten, and I usually [as interpreted] have less. So of

19 course it is a matter of courtesy that we have copies for everybody here.

20 The photocopies that we -- the copies that we have here could not fit into

21 the format of the paper that we have here, so it is a technical problem,

22 but we shall see how we go about it.

23 May I go on?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning, and thank you for coming

3 to the courtroom.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Thank you. I have a certain number of questions to ask of you.

6 You said, Witness, that you took part as a policeman in belligerencies; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you were a member of the army, were you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You were merely a member of the police force, is that it?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Witness, where was the place where -- where was your centre?

14 Where did you gather?

15 A. You mean as a policeman?

16 Q. Yes, as a policeman.

17 A. In the city.

18 Q. Yes, I understand that you were not out in the country, but I'd

19 like to say -- to know where in the city was the police barracks where you

20 were.

21 A. It's not a barracks. It's a structure, a skyscraper. It was the

22 centre of a neighbourhood community there, and we took over those

23 offices. And if I told you where, I don't know that you know it. But say

24 it was at Drvarksa Street, if you want to know.

25 Q. Can we know also the number of the house on the street?

1 A. I don't know the number, but it is right there, that skyscraper,

2 on Drvarksa Street.

3 Q. Well, can you tell us is it the Sarajevo centre, is it Novo

4 Sarajevo, and so on and so forth?

5 A. Specifically to this answer [as interpreted] that you ask me, it

6 is not easy to answer, because in Sarajevo, streets are divided into

7 left-hand side and right-hand side, or, rather, the old town and centre.

8 So say this was part of the old town, Stari Grad, and it was in Stari Grad

9 and it was -- it is about, say, 300 to 400 metres away from the market.

10 Q. Witness, how many -- how strong was this police post? How many

11 men were there?

12 A. Do I have to answer that?

13 Q. Witness, if you are telling the -- if you are speaking the truth,

14 then you must answer it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please answer the questions. If you think you could

16 not, please tell the Court, but as a rule, you should answer to all the

17 questions. And there might be some misunderstanding. I think

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now questioning you not specifically yet on what

19 happened at the Markale market but your activity as a policeman. Please

20 answer the question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. We were about 60, 65, 66

22 maybe.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, were these uniformed policemen?

25 A. No, because we had none. Well -- so we wore whatever we had.

1 There simply were not any uniforms around. Had there been any uniforms,

2 we would have been uniformed.

3 Q. Are you telling us that none of the 60 or 70 policemen who were

4 based in the street that you mention, that none of them wore uniforms?

5 A. Well, there were none, as I said. And we are not policemen. We

6 are a group of enthusiasts defending at that time. At that time, we

7 didn't know what the police was. We didn't know what the police job was.

8 Q. But, Witness, tell us then, what were you if you were not a

9 policeman? I understood that you were a policeman. Was it a special

10 unit?

11 A. Well, I don't really know how to tell you. A special policeman.

12 After all, we were all policemen, but we were the official ones, unlike

13 other policemen. You didn't understand my point. I wasn't a

14 professional. I became one only when the war started.

15 Q. Very well. You tell me that there were, therefore, official

16 policemen and unofficial policemen, is that it?

17 A. Naturally. Naturally. Those who were policemen before the war,

18 then they went on as such.

19 Q. Witness, you are telling me that you were not, or at least that is

20 what emerges, what was passed from the transcript, that you were not a

21 policeman. At the time of the incident, that is 5th of -- 5th of

22 February, 1994, you were not a policeman. What were you? You weren't?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Until when were you a policeman, Witness?

25 A. Until the end of 1993. I believe it was October.

1 Q. And when you say a "policeman," Witness, what do you exactly mean

2 by that word "policeman"?

3 A. Well, if you talk about the rule of law in a state, then I can

4 tell you that under such circumstances -- I don't know. What exactly do

5 you want to know? Are we talking about wartime, what a "policeman" means

6 in wartime? Is that it?

7 Q. Witness, will you tell me, in wartime, was a policeman a soldier?

8 Is that how I'm to take your hesitance?

9 A. No, not necessarily. I mean, a policeman is somebody who is at

10 hand, who helps, who comes to succour, who does things like that. As for

11 the site itself, it was not defence line, it was the city.

12 Q. Witness, but until 1993, were you insured? Were you a beneficiary

13 of social insurance?

14 A. None of us were, not only me. It was later on, and it varied then

15 on the companies as they started to pay in. And there's still very many

16 people who are still not insured.

17 Q. Yes. I understand that. But formally speaking, were you -- did

18 you -- did you hold the thing which is usually called the social card, the

19 social insurance card?

20 A. Nobody held it. I repeat, nobody held those. And had something

21 happened, there was no problem. You'd go to the hospital, and they'd do

22 whatever was necessary.

23 Q. And if you went to hospital, nobody would ask who was paying your

24 insurance for you?

25 A. Oh, come. No. No. It was wartime, sir.

1 Q. And is it that there were never some forms, Witness, which would

2 indicate the existence of such-and-such insurance -- insurer?

3 A. I don't think so. Perhaps, but I can't really say because it was

4 a time of confusion. There was no red tape or anything. I mean, it was a

5 time when people's lives were being saved.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, your activities until 1993 -- until the

7 end of 1993, you said that you were a kind of parallel police, if I

8 understand you properly. Were you armed?

9 A. Let me correct you. We were not parallel police. There was just

10 one police. And I was armed. I had a short barrel. But I was lucky

11 enough that I did have it. Very many of my fellow policemen didn't have

12 them. We simply tried to arm ourselves in all ways possible, but it was

13 with great difficulty that we did that.

14 Q. Witness, since you had no uniforms and since you were not a

15 parallel police, as you say, then how did people identify you as a

16 policeman, not parallel but armed policeman? How did -- how could people

17 tell you apart?

18 A. We had our accreditation.

19 Q. And by "accreditation," I presume you mean a card that you could

20 wear, for instance, on your chest. Is that it?

21 A. Yes, indeed. With a photograph.

22 Q. I see. With your photograph.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Witness --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

1 between question and answer.

2 Q. Now, could you tell us something about the structure that was

3 called the Territorial Defence?

4 A. Well, say that -- that we did -- were a part of it.

5 Q. Does that mean yes?

6 A. Yes. But it changed. Initially, it was the Territorial Defence.

7 And then things became a little clearer, because we changed our

8 accreditation several times. As the things improved, we changed it that

9 way.

10 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. You are telling us, Witness,

11 that you were armed, that you had a weapon. Do you know if the

12 Territorial Defence was in the possession of its own weapons, for its own

13 purpose? That is, did the Territorial Defence have its own arsenal?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Witness, when you say "no," does that mean that you do not know

16 that or does it mean that they did not have them?

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... have it. No, we know that

18 they didn't have much, because everything had been taken away from us in

19 the city of Sarajevo, and we tried to manage. I presume that some people

20 had their personal weapons before the war, and they used them. But the

21 city, the state --

22 Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. Yes. I am interrupting you

23 because I see on the -- on the transcript that your answer is not recorded

24 in full. Will you please start your answer from the beginning.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: The answers are not

1 fully recorded because the counsel starts speaking before the witness has

2 finished his answer.

3 A. There were no weapons. There were no arsenals, and not enough --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the interpreters indicate that one

5 of the reasons that they are not able to translate is that because you

6 start asking the next question before the answer of the witness has been

7 translated. So would you please make a pause between the answer and your

8 next question.

9 And perhaps may I ask this to you, as well, Mr. Travljanin.

10 Everything has to be translated. So once the question has been put to

11 you, perhaps you could look at your screen. Do you have a text moving in

12 front of you? If you'd wait --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I do not understand

14 English.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. But if you just wait until it stops moving, that

16 means that everything has been translated up to that moment. And if

17 you're done, give your answers. And you'll certainly forget about it

18 sooner or later. Then I'll remind you.

19 Please proceed.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And

22 my apologies for it. It is quite true that perhaps I was too fast.

23 Q. You were telling us that the Territorial Defence was not armed.

24 Do you know if in the structure of the former Yugoslavia it was true that

25 the Defence, generally speaking, was organised on the three tiers, on

1 three -- was based on three pillars: The army, which at times is called

2 JNA; the Territorial Defence, which was the second pillar; and the civil

3 defence, which was the third pillar of the defence? Would that defence

4 philosophy more or less reflect what you know about it?

5 A. You are correct in saying that in the former state in Yugoslavia,

6 that it existed. There was the Yugoslav army, the Territorial Defence,

7 and the civil defence.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer. And in relation to what is

9 called -- or rather, what you call the TO, that is, the Territorial

10 Defence, do you know if at the time it was true that the weapons were kept

11 in some large public companies so that they could be used if need arose,

12 so that they could be used if need arose, in case of some trouble? Does

13 that remind you of something?

14 A. Yes. Yes. In work organisations, yes, that is true of them. But

15 they had been removed in the time by the other side. They had taken away

16 everything -- they had seized and taken away everything from us. I could

17 take a whole day telling you about all this, but this suffices. We did

18 not have them.

19 Q. Thank you for your answer, which is quite complete. I know who

20 you mean when you said "the other side." I assume you meant the Serb

21 side.

22 A. Yes. Yes, the Serb side. Exactly.

23 Q. Thank you for your answer.

24 Witness, as a participant in the Territorial Defence, did you know

25 whether the Territorial Defence was able to be used to support the army in

1 case of war, in case of combat?

2 A. It's very difficult to answer that question. There was a quest

3 for weapons. We were looking for weapons. We couldn't do anything

4 without weapons.

5 Q. Witness, when I ask you this question, I'm not talking simply

6 about armed support, but one could also provide logistic support. For

7 example, provide means of communication, various rear support methods. So

8 do you know whether the Territorial Defence in the broad sense supported

9 the army in operations of a military kind?

10 A. That's a very delicate question for me to answer, because I'm not

11 qualified to do so. But if you're asking my personal opinion as a

12 citizen --

13 Q. But let's take your personal example, Witness. There were at

14 least 60 or 70 people that you knew and who were located some 300 metres

15 from the Markale marketplace and who were part of the Territorial

16 Defence. Did you know other people who were also members of the

17 Territorial Defence?

18 A. Of course I did. There were many headquarters.

19 Q. Fine. So when you're talking about many headquarters or locations

20 where the Territorial Defence was situated, could you indicate them to us,

21 please, Witness, since apparently you were aware of them and you knew

22 them.

23 A. We're delving deep into the Territorial Defence. I think we're

24 going in the wrong direction, because every skyscraper, every house, had

25 its own guards who took turns. There was so much fear that people were

1 guarding buildings overnight. You can't call that Territorial Defence.

2 They were patriots. There was no difference any more amongst us. We all

3 were -- wanted to save our town and to save ourselves.

4 Q. Witness, these patriots, as you call them and who were guards,

5 they were therefore armed, were they not?

6 A. Of course they were. There were representatives of all three

7 nations. There were Serbs, too, because people were afraid for their

8 lives.

9 Q. Witness, if we're talking here about patriots who were not members

10 of the Territorial Defence or of the police or soldiers, were they then

11 armed civilians? Is that what you're saying?

12 A. There were some weapons here and there, just for the psychological

13 effect it would have.

14 Q. These armed civilians you're talking about, could you distinguish

15 them by a distinctive sign, a label, something that they wore on their

16 chest?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, you yourself - and you are telling us that

19 you were not a policeman but a member of the Territorial Defence - did you

20 consider yourself to be a civilian or a military man?

21 A. I don't understand the question. You're talking about the

22 Territorial Defence and the policemen. I told you I was a policeman.

23 Q. Very well. Witness, in your capacity as a member of the

24 Territorial Defence that you were --

25 A. At the beginning, this didn't last long. Afterwards, I became a

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1 policeman.

2 Q. Fine. At the beginning. At the beginning.

3 In your capacity as a member of the Territorial Defence, did you

4 consider yourself to be a soldier or a civilian?

5 A. We all thought we were soldiers for the defence. I see that that

6 is what you are alluding to. Yes, a soldier. I considered myself a

7 soldier. I was proud of it.

8 Q. I understand you now. You consider yourself to be a soldier,

9 though you were not formally incorporated in the army.

10 A. You were talking about the very beginning. There were no military

11 formations. I am also talking about the beginning.

12 Q. Witness, I am talking about the beginning. So regarding the

13 beginning, we agree. Is that okay?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, this beginning, until when did it last, this initial

16 period?

17 A. Well, almost for a whole year, until the army was constituted and

18 the police force, which I was a member. And then things started

19 functioning, though there were omissions, shortages of weapons and food

20 and everything. You know that.

21 Q. You say for about a year, as I see in the transcript. Can we

22 agree, then, that the war unfortunately started in your region in the

23 spring of 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, if you were to give a date for the beginning

1 of the conflict in Sarajevo, to the best of your recollection, what would

2 it be?

3 A. Let's say officially the 4th of April, 1992.

4 Q. Witness, before the 4th of April, 1992, a little before that, was

5 there a highly conflictual situation which was almost like a war in

6 Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes, you're right. You're right. There was panic. It could be

8 felt in the air.

9 Q. Could you in two words indicate those few days or few weeks before

10 the date that you have mentioned, the 4th of April, what the situation was

11 like?

12 A. I'll be brief and concrete, to the point as to what was

13 happening. The Serbs -- can I use that word? The Serbs took up some

14 checkpoints on the other side of Vrbanja. They had socks on their heads.

15 We thought that they were playing around. They started banning passage,

16 movement. Nobody really knew what was really happening.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, we're still talking about this period from

18 the spring of 1992 until the spring of 1993. Do you know whether in

19 Sarajevo, in addition to the armed civilians that we referred to a moment

20 ago, were there any militia of a paramilitary kind?

21 A. If we're talking about the very beginning, there were quite a

22 number of groups. You may misunderstand me, you may take me wrong, but

23 all those groups were working in the interest of the defence of the town

24 and the people of Sarajevo, regardless of their ethnicity.

25 Q. Witness, are you aware of irregulars that were fully armed and

1 that were situated in Sarajevo? Are you aware of such groups? When I say

2 "irregulars," I means groups that were not integrated within the

3 Territorial Defence or later within the army or the Civil Defence.

4 A. Sir, we're talking about the very beginnings. At the very

5 beginning there was nothing. All this was in embryonic form. So if a

6 group is next to me, I can't say that it is a parallel group or something

7 like that. I am saying, from the beginning, we all rose up in defence.

8 And later on we knew who was a policeman, who was a member of the army,

9 who belonged to the Civil Defence, and so on.

10 Q. Witness, so from your answer, I gather that you never heard

11 mention, while you were a member of the Territorial Defence, groups that

12 were irregulars and which were waging their own war in Sarajevo?

13 A. I am repeating again. If we're talking about the very beginning,

14 there were such groups but not irregular groups. And they were not waging

15 their own wars.

16 Q. Witness, are you aware of a commander called Juka?

17 A. Yes. But many don't know who Juka was. I don't know whether

18 Their Honours know who Juka was. May I tell them?

19 Q. Yes, of course.

20 A. Juka, many people think he was a bandit, a thief. Before the war,

21 he did all kinds of things and that's quite true. But -- but --

22 Q. Yes, please continue.

23 A. May I finish?

24 Q. Yes, yes. Please do.

25 A. That same Juka, when the first shot was fired and when serious

1 things started happening, with his so-called thieves and paramilitary, as

2 you call them, units stood up in defence of the city and he saved Sarajevo

3 from the first onslaught, and that is a fact. He is deceased. He has

4 died. And we have to stop there, and we have to pay tribute to him for

5 this. As for other things that he did, he deserves punishment. That is

6 who Juka was.

7 Q. Why should we stop there? You consider Juka to be a hero?

8 A. For a period of time, he was a hero indeed.

9 Q. Witness, do you know other chiefs coming from the same origins as

10 this Juka that we have mentioned: Caco, Delte, Labudovic, Seve, Nedo,

11 Akrapi?

12 A. Yes, yes, I do. I've heard of them, of course. Every citizen of

13 Sarajevo knows about them, Juka and Caco and Celo.

14 I repeat again - I'm going back to the very beginning - those men

15 defended indeed the town. I never saw a pistol.

16 I did serve the army in Tito's days. I wasn't interested in

17 weapons. I didn't even know how to shoot. But these men were brave. And

18 with the former army in the very centre of town, they were the ones who

19 gave us hope and will, and we followed them. As to what happened later,

20 it happened.

21 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer, but I gather from that answer

22 that these commanders whose names I have listed and who you say you knew,

23 headed armed groups.

24 A. Yes, correct. At the very beginning. We're still talking about

25 the beginning.

1 Q. Were those people heavily armed?

2 A. No. I don't know what you mean by "heavily."

3 Q. Do you know whether they were organised amongst themselves in a

4 military sense?

5 A. Well, let's say so. Juka had quite a good group around him.

6 Q. When you say "a good group," how many people would you say it

7 was?

8 A. At first, probably about 200 men who joined them. And there was

9 some discipline. He took people from the former army who had some

10 knowledge and capability.

11 Q. When you're talking about a group in the order of 200 men, they

12 were under this single commander?

13 A. Yes. I'm talking about Juka. He may have had more than that.

14 Maybe more. Probably.

15 Q. Witness, so you're telling us there may be more. Could you give

16 us some indication of the size?

17 A. I repeat, they were not irregular units. At first we were all

18 regulars, indeed regulars. Regulars indeed. I didn't have a chance, an

19 opportunity to join Juka. I was over here on the other side. I would

20 have though. Maybe I would have left him later on, but that's how it was.

21 Q. Witness, concerning the other groups that we mentioned a moment

22 ago who were under these other commanders that I mentioned, were they of

23 the same size roughly? I'm talking about the troops under them.

24 A. Well, I think there was a difference, after all, between them.

25 After all, Juka was the leading person. These others were below him. So

1 there was a kind of difference amongst them.

2 Q. So you believe that Juka had authority over all the other groups?

3 A. Well, not really, but his opinion was obeyed. And I am repeating

4 again, at the very, very beginning of the war.

5 Q. Very well. Witness, I should now like to go on to another line of

6 questioning, and I am interested in the weapons in the centre of

7 Sarajevo. Witness, do you know whether what are sometimes called

8 defenders, which I will use exceptionally now, the defenders of Sarajevo,

9 did they have a special unit of so-called snipers?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Witness, do you know whether there was a factory in Sarajevo

12 called Zrak?

13 A. Before the war, yes. The former Yugoslav army held it.

14 Q. Did this factory produce highly specialised optical sights for

15 weapons?

16 A. For the former Yugoslav army.

17 Q. My question was not whether it was working for the Yugoslav army.

18 My question was whether it manufactured this type of product. Yes or no?

19 A. You mean during the war? I don't know that.

20 Q. You don't know whether the factory was producing optical sights?

21 A. During the war, I don't know.

22 Q. And before the war, did it produce optical sights?

23 A. Before the war, yes.

24 Q. Did this factory continue working until the beginning of the war,

25 right up until the beginning of the war?

1 A. Probably, yes. I don't know.

2 Q. In whose hands was the factory when the two camps split up? Shall

3 we call it that?

4 A. At the moment of the split, it was probably under the Yugoslav

5 army. But when they separated, it was on our territory.

6 Q. When you say "our territory," you mean the territory controlled --

7 A. I mean the city of Sarajevo.

8 Q. Yes. So it was under the control of Sarajevo. Do you know in

9 whose hands the stockpiles were?

10 A. I don't know anything about the stockpiles.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, I should like to go on to another area. You

12 were in the Territorial Defence throughout this period. Could you confirm

13 that there was no fuel that was readily available throughout the period of

14 the war in Sarajevo?

15 MR. STAMP: Just -- just -- I am hesitant to rise because I want

16 my friend to proceed as quickly as possible, but I think the question

17 could be a little bit clearer. It's a little vague when he asks him about

18 being in the Territorial Defence throughout this period. If perhaps we

19 could narrow the period to know what he's asking about.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, but

21 I think on the French channel it was much clearer. So I can ask the

22 Prosecution to follow the French channel, because he will be able to

23 follow much better what I'm saying.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you suggesting that someone --

25 Mr. Stamp, I never noticed that you speak or understand French.

1 Is that true or is that not true?

2 MR. STAMP: Not good enough for these proceedings.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. STAMP: I do not.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You can't ask someone to listen in a language he

6 doesn't master. Of course, if there's a difference you may point at that,

7 but you can't require someone to speak or understand a language he --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought that

9 Mr. Stamp's French was good enough for him to be able to follow. So I

10 apologise to Mr. Stamp.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I never heard Mr. Stamp speaking or listening

12 to French so that I assumed that he was not able to do so. But perhaps I

13 underestimated him.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One should never underestimate

16 the Prosecution.

17 And I'm very sorry, Mr. Stamp. If I may, I will repeat my

18 question.

19 Q. Witness, during the period we're interested in - and that is the

20 beginning of the war until the autumn of 1994 - were you still in

21 Sarajevo? I thought you said you were.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Since during this period you were in Sarajevo, when

24 was there a shortage of petrol? Could you confirm that it was not readily

25 available?

1 A. It was hard. It was hard.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.

3 Do you have any knowledge of the existence of mortars in the

4 possession of the military authorities in Sarajevo?

5 A. At the beginning, no. But later, yes. I knew about it.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer.

7 Do you know or did you see -- but first, do you know whether

8 certain people had light mortars which they could move around in vehicles

9 of the Golf brand, for instance?

10 A. No, no. That's very risky.

11 Q. When you say "no," does that mean that you don't know, or you're

12 telling us that that was never the case?

13 A. No, I don't know.

14 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Witness.

15 I should now like to show you, Witness, a map.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is an

17 exhibit that has already been produced, and the number is D70. But as

18 this witness may be led to make certain markings, I am reproducing the

19 document without the number so that it shouldn't be confused with the

20 previous exhibit.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not quite sure any more whether there was

22 already any marking made on that map. I -- my recollection --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: It's on the map, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It has not been marked by anyone, this

25 document.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's quite correct. I don't

2 know whether we can use it again such as it is. Could we check that,

3 please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: There have been no markings made on the map.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then of course we now use a new copy of that

6 same -- well, it's not a -- of that same document. Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: And what will then be the new number?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a problem, because I

11 saw in the transcript "D80" but I think that we have reached D79. I'm not

12 quite sure about the numbering by the registrar.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if a document is not admitted, it keeps

15 its number. Therefore, D79 was not admitted.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fine. So it will be D81,

17 therefore. I haven't premarked it because I wasn't sure. But I can do

18 that right now, Mr. President.

19 In the meantime, I would like to request the usher to be kind

20 enough to come to the Defence Bench --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Usher.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- so that I can give him the

23 documents. Thank you very much.

24 Q. Witness --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

1 witness is hearing me.

2 A. Yes, I can hear you. Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a document consisting of two

4 diagrams: The first document, consisting of two pages; and the -- it

5 should be read together -- and a second diagram, which is the last page of

6 this document. So Witness, could you look at the third page, please, the

7 one at the end of the document. Would you tell us what you see there,

8 please, whether you recognise this drawing.

9 A. I think I do.

10 Q. And if you do, then please tell us what it could be.

11 A. Probably the marketplace.

12 Q. It's a Markale, is it not, Witness?

13 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it looks like.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] His excellency General Galic

15 would like to ask this document to be placed on the ELMO, please, so that

16 everyone can see it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, will you please just point. And you will be also given a

20 black marker. Will you please show us where was your coffee-shop on this

21 diagram.

22 A. Perhaps if we could turn it.

23 Q. Yes, do that. Do that, please.

24 A. Because I think that would be easier for everybody. Like this.

25 Q. Just wait. Just wait, Witness. Let me finish my question.

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1 Witness --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have another

3 five minutes -- five, perhaps eight minutes at the outside. So this is

4 the time for the break, and I do not know whether it is better to take the

5 break now, which is an important thing, and that we then come back to this

6 when we return or ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think it will be better to have a break now.

8 Mr. Travljanin, we'll have a break for half an hour. So you

9 return then, and then the examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin will continue.

10 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before I give you the opportunity

14 to resume your cross-examination and before the witness comes into the

15 courtroom, I'd like to come back to the objection of Mr. Stamp in respect

16 of your question. Let me just try to find it.

17 Your question would read in the English transcript -- the

18 transcript reads, page 29, line 9: "You were in the Territorial Defence

19 throughout this period. Could you confirm that there was no fuel that was

20 readily available throughout the period of the war in Sarajevo?"

21 Mr. Stamp objected on the basis that the question could be

22 clearer. Mr. Stamp says: "It's a little vague when he asks him about

23 being in the Territorial Defence throughout this period," and he asked for

24 narrowing the question. I think Mr. Stamp had in mind at that moment that

25 the witness has said a couple of times that he was only during a certain

1 period in the Territorial Defence and not during the whole period of the

2 war.

3 You responded, and let me -- by saying: "I'm sorry,

4 Mr. President, but I think on the French channel it was much clearer. So

5 I can ask the Prosecution to follow the French channel because he'll be

6 able to follow much better what I'm saying."

7 But, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, didn't you say, and say it in French:

8 "[Interpretation] You were in the Territorial Defence throughout this

9 period of time. Can you confirm it for me that there was no petrol

10 readily available in Sarajevo throughout the war?"

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've already

12 said that I have full confidence in this Chamber, so no doubt if you say

13 that I said that, then undoubtedly I did.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what you said, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. That

15 means that the French text was in no way clearer than the English

16 transcript. So it was improper to tell Mr. Stamp that he could better

17 listen to the French channel, and it was especially improper because

18 there's an underlying suggestion that the translation would not have been

19 made according to the standards which we expect in this courtroom. That's

20 the reason why you should not have referred Mr. Stamp to the French

21 channel, indirectly blaming the translators for giving a not precise

22 translation.

23 Could the witness be brought in the courtroom again. And you may

24 proceed with your cross-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

1 repeat what I said, that is, I address my apologies to everybody

2 concerned.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be seated, Mr. Travljanin. It was a bit

4 more than half an hour, but we had to deal with a technical question

5 meanwhile. So we apologise for that.

6 Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, we shall resume. I believe you have on the screen -- I

9 believe we can still see it. I don't know, however. Yes, we do. We see

10 a sketch here.

11 Will you merely show us where was your coffee-shop? Of course if

12 you can see it.

13 A. And shall I put a black cross there or what?

14 Q. No. Wait. Wait. Wait, please. Please check that it is the

15 right colour.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I then ask the usher to

17 check, because I cannot see from here whether the colour of the marker is

18 correct.

19 Q. Just wait a moment. Wait a moment.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I have a problem, since my laptop was not connected.

21 But I fixed it. So please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't dare suggest that you

23 move -- change to the French channel, but I --

24 Mr. President, I was saying that we should check the colour of the

25 marker.

1 [In English] Is it a black one or -- is it black? Okay. Thanks.

2 A. A black marker, a black one.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Will you then use this marker, please, to mark

4 the place where the coffee-shop was which you ran.

5 A. Well --

6 Q. Do it, please.

7 A. If we assume and we know that these are the -- these are the tram

8 lines, isn't it?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe so.

10 Q. But I suppose you know the area better than I do.

11 A. Yes. So these are the tram tracks. And we are entering the

12 market from the tram lines, moving into the interior, to the left. So

13 these are stalls here. And this part here -- now, I don't know how you

14 drew this. It should be narrower than it is here. But it doesn't

15 matter. And the outlet ought to be here.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness, for being so precise.

17 I'd like you now to look at what you call the stalls, that is,

18 these rectangular boxes which are in the market. Please look at them.

19 A. Yes. I see them.

20 Q. Would this distribution of stalls tell you the distribution of

21 stalls on the day of the explosion?

22 A. More or less.

23 Q. Very well, Witness. Will you please, then, put your signature at

24 the bottom of the document. Will you please sign this document -- of

25 course, if the Chamber gives -- if Their Honours give their leave for

1 that.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't mind. We never do it. But I don't see any

4 specific reason, since the exhibit has a number. So that's the only

5 marking on it.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. All right.

7 Q. So it is not worth the trouble. There's no need to sign it.

8 Will you then -- will you then, please, go back to the previous

9 page, or more exactly, the page which we see here.

10 Witness, do you see here in this part of the sketch to the right

11 the building of the 22nd of December, which is partially sketched, and the

12 other building where your coffee-shop was on the other side?

13 Thank you. Witness, the distribution of this stall which are

14 represented by these rectangular boxes, does this tally with your memory?

15 A. No. I think that more stalls have been crowded into here. But it

16 could be -- no. I mean, when one looks at it with the lay eye, one could

17 see that there are just too many stalls, but more or less.

18 Q. Thank you very much for this precision.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions with regard

20 to this document, Mr. President. We don't have -- it can be removed from

21 the ELMO. If the usher would be so kind to do that.

22 Q. Witness, the coffee-shop that you ran, for how long did you run

23 it?

24 A. Well, when I got off this police service that I did, and that was

25 1993. October, maybe September -- October. I'm not sure about the

1 month.

2 Q. Which year?

3 A. 1993. End of 1993.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know who ran this coffee-shop before

5 you?

6 A. Nobody. It was completely destroyed. It was completely gutted

7 out. It used to be a fishmonger's. And then with the help of my friends,

8 I restored it.

9 Q. But the owner, who was the owner?

10 A. No. The owner is not known to this day. We're still waiting for

11 the restitution.

12 Q. Witness, could it be that the -- its owner was somebody of Serb

13 origin?

14 A. Oh, dear. Yes. Yes, it could be. I can't say yes or no.

15 Q. Very well. Witness, before we put on the ELMO another document,

16 which is a map of Sarajevo, I'd like you to answer the following

17 question: Do you know why and when the commander whom I mentioned a

18 moment ago, Caco, and whom you said that you knew, do you know when he was

19 removed?

20 MR. STAMP: One minute.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. STAMP: I did not hear the witness say that he knew this

23 commander. I think he said he heard of him and knew of him. There's a

24 slight distinction between knowing somebody and knowing of the person or

25 hearing of the person.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yeah. Well, I do not really

2 know what is the term that I used in French. But I can rephrase this

3 question. I shall be happy to do that.

4 Q. The person that we're talking about, Witness, that person whose

5 name you just heard and you told us that you knew it - and I mean the

6 name - and you said Caco something, that he was your commander, that he

7 was --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know if this commander was removed from his post at some

10 point in time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know when that happened, approximately?

13 A. I wouldn't be able to say.

14 Q. Do you know which year?

15 A. Even there I'd be wrong. But I'd say it was towards the very end,

16 that is, sometime -- at about the time of the Dayton Accords. I don't

17 know exactly, but I think it was towards the very end of the war.

18 Q. And if I give you the date, which is October 1993, would you say

19 that that was it?

20 A. I don't think so. I don't think that is the correct date. I

21 think he lived after that date.

22 Q. And do you know why he was removed?

23 A. You're asking me why he was dismissed. I was just an ordinary

24 citizen.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. Another question: Are you aware of a

1 shelling which happened -- which hit a green area in Grbavica some -- that

2 when some 30 shells were launched by Sarajevo forces?

3 A. Well, it doesn't come as a surprise. You could find as many

4 places like that.

5 Q. But if I mention the date of the 24th of May, would that ring a

6 bell?

7 A. No, it doesn't.

8 Q. Witness, do you know where the headquarters of the 9th Motorised

9 Brigade was?

10 A. No, I don't know that.

11 Q. Witness, I will now have a map shown you, with the assistance of

12 the usher.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I hope that we have enough

14 copies for everybody.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Have you numbered the document, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16 THE REGISTRAR: D82.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] D82. Thank you, registrar, as

18 always.

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map which is now on the video

20 monitor?

21 A. Yes, rather.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer. Will you then use a pointer which the

23 usher will place in your hand in order to point at where do you situate

24 Markale on this map?

25 A. I don't see Stari Grad, the old town, here.

1 Q. Perhaps -- [In English] On that -- on the very centre of the map.

2 A. Yes. Perhaps it is a good idea to zoom it in. As you like.

3 Q. Stop. Stop, stop. [Interpretation] And now we have to move the

4 map higher up.

5 A. Yes, it has to be moved up because this is Skenderija. We have to

6 cross Miljacka. Let me see. Brajkovic, no. Cicin Han, no. And further

7 on, the map has to be moved down.

8 Q. I don't know whether it is the usher who has to do it or the

9 technical booth. [In English] The upper part. The upper part of the map,

10 please.

11 A. It has to be moved down.

12 Q. A little bit. A little bit. And a little bit, and here we are.

13 Stop.

14 A. Here we are. Yes. We're quite near. This is Mejtas,

15 Bascarsija. And there's the street where yet another tragedy, a horrible

16 tragedy, happened in Ferhadija. I'm sure everybody here is aware of it.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, will you please -- do you see a street

18 in?

19 A. Yes. Mula Mustafe Baseskije. That's it.

20 Q. And will you please now find the site of Markale?

21 A. I can't really -- I'm reading this. I think this is it, where it

22 says "104." It should be.

23 Q. Witness --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. On that street that you just-- that you've just

1 mentioned, will you please -- do you see a sign indicating a church? Can

2 you see it? This is a black symbol, a black rectangle with a white cross,

3 and it is right below two letters, "MU." Can you see that?

4 A. No, I don't. I just don't.

5 Q. Witness, can you see the street which we're talking about which

6 was the former Marsala Tita Street?

7 A. Yes I do.

8 Q. And will you take your pointer and point on the screen. Not on

9 the screen, on the other screen. Will you please indicate the street?

10 Yes. Stop. Stop now and keep the pointer there. Here to the left you

11 have a church. Do you see it? There. Thank you. And in relation to the

12 church, can you locate the location of Markale?

13 A. If we look at it like this, the church should be to the right. It

14 is so-called cathedral. So the market is to the left of the church.

15 Q. Very well.

16 A. A bit to the west.

17 Q. Will you then please put a cross at the place where you believe

18 that the Markale market was on this map?

19 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I really hit it. I'll -- right. I'm

20 afraid I'll go wrong. I know the street and that is where it should be,

21 approximately here.

22 Q. Thank you. Please put a cross. Will you please make a cross on

23 there? Or if you would rather put a circle, I will accept that, too. You

24 can put a circle there --

25 A. Here it was, approximately.

1 Q. -- for the transcript. Yes. We are aware where that is. Thank

2 you. Witness, will you please show where the street where the

3 headquarters of the Territorial Defence was, the one that you belonged

4 to?

5 A. Sir, I think you just went off the mark. I repeat that we didn't

6 have headquarters, because I was part of the police. The Territorial

7 Defence lasted for a very short time, and it changed from one place to the

8 other. It moved house frequently. So --

9 Q. No, but witness, I will interrupt you. No. Excuse me. A moment

10 ago, told us about a place where there were about 60, 65 persons. Will

11 you please point at the -- at this place, repeat the name of the street,

12 please?

13 A. Yes, I can point at it, but you keep asking me about --

14 Q. Which is the street please?

15 A. It is the former Drvarska Street.

16 Q. Very well. Former Drvarksa Street. Thank you. Will you please

17 point at that street? Please take the pointer and point at that street on

18 the map which is on the ELMO.

19 A. I can't really get my bearings here. If that -- if this is the

20 market, then we go up. I don't see it say "Drvarksa Street." Is it the

21 new plan or the -- the new map or the old map?

22 Q. This is a new map, I believe, Witness.

23 A. Yes. These are the new names of the streets. They have changed

24 those names. So it is above the market. I mean, there can be no mistake

25 about that.

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1 Q. Witness, could you please tell us whether in relation to the

2 market that road was to the north, to the south, to the east, or to the

3 west of the market in relation to the Markale marketplace?

4 A. I'm afraid I can't tell you, because I may make a mistake, but to

5 the left in relation to the market. Perhaps a little to the west.

6 Q. And you said a moment ago it was about 300, 400 metres away; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you for your answer. From the scene of the event.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you for your answer. My last question: When the accident

12 occurred in Markale, did you know whether there was a factory for the army

13 situated in the building of the 22nd of December?

14 A. It is still there, the building, but it's not a factory. Former.

15 It was a former factory of the Yugoslav People's Army, which manufactured

16 uniforms.

17 Q. Were there workers in that building and in that factory?

18 A. I can't tell you. Probably there were some guards. It wasn't

19 empty.

20 Q. But, Witness, your coffee-shop was opposite this building,

21 opposite this factory, wasn't it?

22 A. It's not a factory. You keep saying things. It's not a factory.

23 We can't call it a factory. A former factory, call it.

24 Q. Witness, thank you for coming.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

1 Mr. President. That ends my cross-examination, and thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: I have no re-examination. However, may I ask two

5 further questions which don't necessarily arise out of the

6 cross-examination?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Looking at the clock and knowing that

8 it's the last witness, and taking into account you took 34 minutes for

9 your examination-in-chief and the cross-examination took one hour and 18

10 minutes, please proceed.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 Further examination by Mr. Stamp:

13 Q. Mr. Travljanin, immediately before the explosion at Markale

14 market, did you hear anything in particular?

15 A. I don't know what you mean. What -- what could I have heard?

16 Something unusual, you mean? Unusual things were happening from one

17 minute to the next, so I couldn't tell you specifically.

18 Q. Very well. Having been a resident of Sarajevo during the war,

19 were you accustomed to being in places that had been hit by mortars or

20 being near where mortar shells impacted?

21 A. That is the right question. It's strange what people are like.

22 One gets used to everything, even to shells. One minute you're alive, the

23 next you're dead. The only thing that mattered is that it wasn't you.

24 Q. Now, when mortar shells impact, do you sometimes hear anything at

25 about the time when they impact?

1 A. Let me see. If you hear this so-called something else that you're

2 referring to, some kind of sound, it's a good thing when you hear it. It

3 means it's flown by, and once it impacts, it's too late. I know that from

4 personal experience. Not just me, the whole town, children, old people.

5 Q. What type of sound? And Mr. Travljanin, please listen

6 precisely to the question I'm -- please listen to the questions I'm asking

7 and answer precisely. You said if you hear this sound, it's a good

8 thing. What is the sound that you sometimes hear when a mortar impacts?

9 A. It's called whistle. It's like a whistle. Children were able to

10 imitate it, this sound of a shell. And there were jokes being cracked.

11 Something like this, like a whistle.

12 Q. And you said that this was something that was very common for the

13 residents of Sarajevo to hear and know and recognise; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, indeed. It was part of everyday life.

15 Q. Now, in the -- in respect of the incident of the 5th of February,

16 did you hear a whistle?

17 A. I did not, no. No. I said a moment ago when you hear the

18 whistle, it's gone. But once it hits, it's over. Some other people

19 somewhere else heard it.

20 Q. Okay. When the explosion occurred, you were inside your shop; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Travljanin.

24 MR. STAMP: Nothing further, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

1 Any reason to cross-examine the witness on this particular aspect

2 touched upon during the re-examination?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I had difficulty in

4 following the question, because there was reference to the impact. But

5 anyway, I don't think it requires any cross-examination.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Travljanin, the other Judges don't have any

8 questions for you, but I have got one question for you.

9 You testified that when you heard the explosion, you were sitting

10 in your shop and that you looked out of the window and that only then you

11 went out. On the video, you were asked where you were during the

12 explosion, and you indicated a place which seemed to me to be outside the

13 shop. If you'd like to review it, I'll ask this part of the video to be

14 replayed.

15 Perhaps it's better to do it. Could we perhaps replay the video

16 of the -- the second one.

17 MR. STAMP: That, I believe, is Exhibit number --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have known it by myself.

19 MR. STAMP: -- 3281A.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the interview with the investigator.

21 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could that please be replayed.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I comment on this?

24 [Videotape played]

25 "... the location of the mortar on Markale market on the 5th of

1 February, 1994? Could you please point."

2 "This is the place that I was."

3 "Could you now please walk to the location where you recall

4 seeing -- "

5 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't need to be further played. Yes. Thank

6 you.

7 You're pointing with your hand to what seemed to be the back of

8 you. Could you explain exactly what you pointed at when the investigator

9 was in Sarajevo and in respect of what you testified in this court.

10 A. Your Honour, that is my premises. Those are my premises. The

11 question was where I was at the moment of the explosion, and I pointed

12 with my hand. You saw the premises behind me. That is where I had this

13 coffee-shop, and that is where I was. And then you see on the video that

14 I went on to show where the shell fell. So that's it. It's quite clear.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that when pointing with your hand to

16 the building behind you, you mentioned to indicate that -- you meant to

17 indicate that you were inside that building.

18 A. It's not a building. It's a small coffee-shop, my coffee-shop.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's in your coffee-shop. Yes. Thank you very much

20 for your answer.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Travljanin, you've now answered all the questions

23 put to you by both the Prosecution and the Defence and from the Bench. I

24 thank you very much for coming to The Hague.

25 Judges are dependent on the information they get from those who

1 know about what happened, and your answers to the questions give us

2 information we need while preparing the decisions we have to take. So

3 thank you so much for assisting the Tribunal in this way to fulfil its

4 task. And I wish you a safe journey home and a good Easter weekend.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

9 the documents tendered.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3281A, videotape; Exhibit P2278,

11 videotape; Exhibit D81, three pages of diagram of Markale Market marked by

12 witness; D82, map marked by witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: All these documents and tapes are admitted into

14 evidence.

15 Mr. Stamp, I do understand that you've run out of witnesses for

16 this week.

17 MR. STAMP: Unhappily, perhaps, we have run out of witnesses. We

18 tried to schedule to ensure that no one would --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. STAMP: -- have to wait for the long weekend here.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have a full understanding for that. We can't

22 just play around with witnesses. We have to take into consideration that

23 we can't keep them here for too long a time.

24 Is there anything else the parties would bring to the attention of

25 the Chamber at this very moment? You're both standing. Mr. Stamp,

1 you're --

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Because

4 for once we have gained a bit of time, I have two remarks to make. One is

5 that once again that we, as the Defence, in order to examine this witness,

6 we needed to have certain elements which were not given to us. And I'm

7 referring to the totality of the exhibits that we know that exist, and

8 those are the military directives which we have been requesting for --

9 from the general headquarters right down to the brigade level. I would

10 have liked to ask certain questions in that connection; however, the

11 Defence's wings were cut, and we repeat that. And we should like to ask

12 the Prosecution two things through Mr. Stamp:

13 First, when will the Defence finally have access to these exhibits

14 which are of absolutely vital importance for them, because we can work 24

15 hours a day, if necessary.

16 And my second question: In order to prepare ourselves better, can

17 we know how the Prosecution will act in the future regarding medical

18 documents?

19 Often the translations are often inventions. And I think this is

20 a term that you used yourself. I think I'm speaking from memory. I think

21 that is the word that you used. So can the Prosecution tell us regarding

22 these two groups of documents what they intend to do. Can they assist the

23 Defence regarding this particular question regarding multiple translations

24 of exhibits; and secondly, when we will have access to documents of a

25 military nature. Thank you.

1 MR. STAMP: In respect of the first question, we have disclosed

2 all documents which ought to be disclosed pursuant to the Rules of

3 Procedure and Evidence. Anything which we receive in future - because

4 this is on ongoing obligation - which is relevant or ought to be disclosed

5 pursuant to those Rules will immediately be disclosed.

6 In respect to the second question, the translation department is a

7 department which operates under the direction of the Registry, not the

8 Office of the Prosecutor. And I did indicate on a previous occasion when

9 a part of a document had been translated and not all of it. In other

10 words, only the relevant part had been translated and not the amount of

11 stitches or the precise amount of penicillin that had been prescribed.

12 That if there are issues in respect to translations, those issues must be

13 brought to the CLSS so that they may take whatever action that needs to be

14 done. I don't think it is quite fair to be making statements which might

15 adversely characterise their performance unless they are brought here or

16 are put in a position where they can answer these questions. In any case,

17 I am quite sure, and I've been informed that they are well prepared to

18 accommodate the Defence and have done so in other cases if the Defence

19 brings any discrepancy or any issues to their attention. May it please

20 Mr. President, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. President, I'm sorry,

24 but simply this: Regarding the so-called military documents, I note that

25 the Prosecution has said that they will disclose them as soon as they have

1 them. I know that there is a case called Kordic in which those documents

2 have been disclosed. Therefore, the Prosecution does have possession of

3 those documents, and I think they should authorise access to them.

4 Regarding translations, we understand that we are not accusing

5 anyone among the translators. On the other hand, the Prosecution produces

6 certain exhibits, and that is up to them. But sometimes they contain

7 translations that are relevant to other documents. And so if there's an

8 error, I think it doesn't come from the translators but from the actual

9 Prosecution, which gave one document thinking that it was another

10 document. So the Defence, like anyone else, would like to have the

11 clearest possible situation. It's a question of methodology, which

12 affects in the first place the Prosecution. Of course, the Defence never

13 said that it was criticising the work of anyone, certainly not of the

14 translators. That is not something that we have said, and we wouldn't

15 like those words to be put in our mouth.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me deal with both the problems raised by

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Let me first stress that it is the task of the Defence

18 itself to find whatever documents that could support the case of the

19 Defence. I'd like to start saying this, because I'd like to stress that

20 the Defence should take all efforts, and the Defence is aware of all the

21 rules they can invoke if they have difficulties in finding what they are

22 seeking. Of course, this Chamber will always consider requests for

23 assistance if the Defence finds difficulties in its task.

24 If the Defence is of the opinion, as you expressed referring to

25 the Kordic case, that the Prosecution has in its possession documents that

1 are material for the Defence and might even be - that's how I understand

2 it - might even be exculpatory, then of course there is a general

3 obligation to disclose whatever exculpatory evidence is in the hands of

4 the Prosecution.

5 I did understand that the Prosecution is doing its utmost best to

6 locate whatever documents the Defence has referred to. And I think we are

7 still waiting for the results of this first round of inspection of what is

8 in the hands of the Prosecution, and I expect that this will be done

9 soon.

10 We discussed and we got an indication from the Prosecution when

11 they thought they could have finished this exercise, so I expect on rather

12 short notice a report both of the Prosecution in respect of the results

13 and, if necessary, any comment from the Defence.

14 You will understand that talking about the totality of exhibits

15 is, well, a rather vague denotation. And of course, if, for example,

16 specific documents in the Kordic case are referred to, I do assume that

17 the Defence has given every detail which they have to the Prosecution in

18 order to better enable the Prosecution to undertake what it promised to

19 undertake.

20 Let me then go to the second issue, the medical documents. We

21 have been confronted a few times with differences in translation and even

22 translated parts of a document where we could not find a corresponding

23 text in the copy of the original of which it was translated.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have heard the decisions of this Chamber

25 about this -- of these translations. I think it would be proper for the

1 Defence that whenever they are confronted with this situation, that they

2 immediately inform the Prosecutor. And if the translations are made on

3 the request of the Prosecution, I think it's proper that the Prosecution

4 then addresses those who are responsible for the translations made on

5 their request.

6 If this is done well in advance of the documents being tendered as

7 evidence, then we can avoid a situation where we're not -- this Chamber's

8 not only confronted with the problems in respect of translation or --

9 well, let me say in general the problems about the translation, but that

10 we can proceed in such a way that the Prosecution has been able to repair,

11 as far as possible, what has done and that there is a final translation

12 which could be checked by the Defence on its correctness.

13 So therefore, I think the first thing to be done is that whenever

14 you are confronted with such a situation, immediately inform the

15 Prosecutor, see what can be done so that we have a proper translation at

16 the trial. This of course does not prevent you from indicating later on

17 that this final translation is the result of earlier complaints by the

18 Defence on the earlier translations, but then at least we can proceed and

19 the Prosecution is able to properly prepare for that situation during the

20 examination of the witness.

21 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor -- sorry.

23 Mr. President. Sorry. I was listening to the interpretation. I was

24 listening to the interpretation, hence the error.

25 JUDGE ORIE: They both start with "P-r."

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1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We hold in high esteem

2 both, in high regard both.

3 Now the question. What I wanted to say is the following: that the

4 Prosecutor, as I was just saying, was clearly informed in a general

5 manner, and since December last year, that infinite problems arise with

6 every medical document which is poorly legible or illegible. We are

7 speaking in general terms. Of course the Defence could take up each one

8 of these documents, but since we do not know what the Prosecution will be

9 producing and not, will be tendering or not, and you could see yesterday

10 that several documents were in extremis withdrawn by the Defence, however,

11 it is a considerable effort on the part of the Defence to take all medical

12 documents and to say, "This one is all right, and this one is not." We're

13 talking in principle and in general. I think that the Prosecution, as

14 they had done in the beginning, to find the most legible of the copies and

15 to supply it both to the interpreters, to the Chamber, and to the

16 Defence. And the Defence would appreciate it highly, but we will resist

17 on this, and we thank you very much for your suggestion.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We have taken notice of your observations

19 in this respect.

20 Then if there's nothing else to be raised at this very moment, we

21 are just before the Easter weekend. I wish everyone in this courtroom,

22 those who assist us just outside of this courtroom, a good Easter

23 weekend.

24 General Galic, the same is true for you. I do understand that

25 under your circumstances it is not the Easter weekend someone wishes to

1 have, but I nevertheless wish you a good Easter weekend.

2 We will resume --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. My Easter will

4 be somewhat later, but we shall mark this one too. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until next Tuesday at a quarter past

6 two in this same courtroom, if I'm correct, Madam Registrar. Yes.

7 We will adjourn until then.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.03 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day

10 of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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