1 Tuesday, 2 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone after this long weekend,
6 both in the courtroom and just outside the courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Looking to the Prosecution, did I understand well
11 that it has been arranged that the Prosecution witness Mr. Harding would
12 be called in order to continue being cross-examined by the Defence?
13 MR. IERACE: That's so, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's nothing else to be discussed at this
15 moment, Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I have just a small
17 announcement with respect to the order of witnesses. There is a slight
18 change to the schedule which has been filed, the date of the schedule
19 which we had filed on 26 March, 2002. And the new order which will be
20 formally handed over to you, I think by the end of today, will be, as we
21 know, first it's Mr. Harding, the end of cross-examination, and then some
22 re-examination; then, and that corresponds to the letter of 26th of March,
23 will be Mr. Jusufovic. Then the next witness will be Ismet Fazlic. So he
24 comes a little bit earlier. Then the next witness will be
25 Nedim Gavranovic, then Omer Hadziabdic, and then Edin Suljic. So that
1 means that witness Rasema Menzilovic will be moved to the week of 8th and
2 12th April. Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your information, Mr. Waespi.
4 Mr. Usher, may I then ask you to escort Mr. Harding into the
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Harding. It has been quite some
8 time ago that you were here, and that unfortunately we had to interrupt
9 your examination as a witness. May I remind you that you are still bound
10 by the solemn declaration you made at the beginning of giving your
11 testimony. And it's now up to the Defence to continue the
12 cross-examination. Perhaps there may be re-examination or questions of
13 the Judges as well, but we'll see.
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 WITNESS: CARL DANIEL EDWIN HARDING [Resumed]
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
17 handing the floor to the Defence. We would like to thank the witness and
18 to say hello to everybody, but thank the witness to be so kind to come
19 back. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding, for coming back. As it was the
20 case in the past, I will put my questions to you in the French language.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
22 Q. If you remember, you testified on the 25th and on the 26th of
23 February of this year.
24 And since some time has lapsed between those dates, I would
25 propose, Mr. President, that we begin by showing the witness a map that he
1 himself had annotated so that he may refresh his memory this way. I will
2 give the map number or the indication. I believe that it is marked P -- I
3 cannot remember any more what was the mark. I believe that the court
4 clerk has it in front of you. Yes, I found it. It's P3644. It is a
5 Prosecution evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] It is H, actually. So 3644H.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So 3644H.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Is it PH?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I'm very sorry, it is a
10 handwritten -- it is a handwritten letter. I believe it is an"H" now that
11 I look at it better. May we show this map to Mr. Harding, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: I have a map, P3644.CH.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] It should be that. It should be
14 that, yes.
15 While the witness is examining the map, I would like to ask the
16 court clerk to prepare as well a map that the Defence had submitted to the
17 witness last time. It is a map bearing the mark D53 or 54, if I'm not
19 THE REGISTRAR: D53.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Great.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please take a few moments to look at this
22 map, or do you have it clearly in your memory? Do you need some time?
23 A. No, I can remember this map.
24 Q. Very well. I would also like to submit to you the map bearing the
25 number D53, only to refresh your memory, and then I shall put questions to
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, would you please be
3 kind enough to show this map to the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D53 be put on the ELMO. Yes.
5 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. WAESPI: If the Defence could please indicate the date of this
8 map - it looks like a sketch to me - and also who the author is of this
9 map. Because I suspect that this is a map which is attached to one of the
10 witness statements from a Prosecution witness, and this Prosecution
11 witness was in Sarajevo in 1993. So I'm not sure whether it's very
12 helpful for this witness to comment to a map drawn by a witness who was
13 in -- potential witness who was in Sarajevo much later.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do remember that we paid some attention to shifting
15 certain positions. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please explain what
16 the source of this map is?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President.
18 Would you like me to explain to you the meaning of this map, or the
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Then --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Concerning the
22 origin, unfortunately, I cannot do it. I thank you for asking me to do
23 it, but unfortunately I cannot. I did not think that this objection would
24 be raised at this point, so I am not prepared to give you this answer.
25 But the Defence will look into it later on. I shall be able to give you
1 an answer shortly after the break. But what my colleague is telling me is
2 that these elements come to us from the Prosecution, and this is why it
3 shouldn't be a problem. Now, as to know exactly who was the material
4 author of this map, I do not know it. But I believe that concerning this
5 document, it must bear an ERN number. I do believe that there is -- the
6 authenticity of this document is not in question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... confusion as far
8 as time is concerned whether it could confuse the witness when he would be
9 confronted with a map which is covering a different period of time
10 compared to the period of time he is testifying about. I think that was
11 your problem, Mr. Waespi. What the source -- yes, please.
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honour. And the witness, who will be a
13 Prosecution witness, is Witness Gardemeister-Kukkola, who will come later,
14 and as I said before, he was in Sarajevo in 1993, well after Mr. Harding
15 was there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course, it is a document which
17 originates from the Prosecution, so it can be used. But
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're warned that this sketch or this drawing, as
19 Mr. Waespi says, stems from a different period of time. So if you would
20 please keep that in mind. I don't know what questions you would have
21 about this map.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President. The
24 question related to this map were with regards to the chronology of
25 various observation posts, whether we are talking about Papa posts or Lima
1 posts. This is why this document is here, because we just wanted to
2 establish the chronology of the existence of these observation posts.
3 Q. We shall not look or consult these documents for now,
4 Mr. Witness. They may remain in front of you. But my first questions are
5 basically general questions. Mr. Witness, would you be kind enough to
6 remind us if that is correct that you stayed on the site from the month of
7 July 1993 [sic] up until the beginning of the year 1993? Is that the
8 correct period of time during which you stayed in Sarajevo, from July 1992
9 until 1993, the end of the year? Could you please tell us when were you
11 A. In Sarajevo or in theatre?
12 Q. When I talk about the theatre, theatre, I'm talking about
13 Sarajevo, in the sense that during -- when were you in Sarajevo and if you
14 intend to talk about Lima, that's also the case, you may do so.
15 A. I can only talk about the Papa side, and I was in Sarajevo August
16 1992 through to January 1993.
17 Q. Very well. I had thought that you said July. I'm terribly sorry.
18 You yourself have now mentioned August 1992. I will take that into
20 Do you know if there was an agreement, a cease-fire agreement,
21 prepared on the 19th of August, 1992?
22 A. During that period, there was a cease-fire agreement about every
23 other day. So it would be quite normal to have one, and it would be
24 broken by 1000 hours on the day that it applied.
25 Q. Witness, who was implementing these cease-fires on the Serbian
1 side, for instance?
2 A. I could only comment on the Papa side. The Serbian side is the
3 Lima side. I would be informed of a cease-fire by the operations staff in
4 the PTT building.
5 Q. Witness, do you know who would sign these cease-fire agreements?
6 A. All I can say, it was somebody on the headquarters staff.
7 Q. When you talk about the headquarters staff, are you talking about
8 the Serbian headquarters side?
9 A. No, I'm referring to my headquarters, being in the PTT building.
10 In that building, there were liaison officers from both sides, and there
11 were numerous senior officers that liaise with the French battalion based
12 at the airport. And through that link and through those methods of
13 communications, a cease-fire would be agreed. And that's the way that I
14 understood it. But I was never part of a wide-area cease-fires, only very
15 local cease-fires to achieve specific tasks.
16 Q. Very well. Witness, you just told us that there was some liaison
17 officers from each of the factions that were present, for both factions.
18 Is that what you're telling me?
19 A. From both sides, yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 You told me that these officers were in direct liaison with the
22 headquarters, therefore, the headquarters of both of the two sides, two
23 factions, that were present?
24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
25 Q. Thank you for this answer, Mr. Witness.
1 I can therefore infer from the answer you just gave us that the
2 headquarters, having been at the time under the responsibility of
3 General Galic, because he was in charge of Sarajevo, so he would send his
4 liaison officer every second day, every other day, in order to get a
5 signature for a cease-fire, to come to a cease-fire agreement?
6 A. Whether he sent somebody to be physically present in the PTT or it
7 was done through lines of communication, I can't answer that as I was
8 never part of a general cease-fire.
9 Q. Very well. However, the headquarters that were under the
10 responsibility of General Galic, those headquarters made sure that
11 somebody or somehow the message for a cease-fire would be sent to you or
12 somebody would physically come and make sure that the cease-fire is
13 implemented. Is that the case?
14 A. All I can say, I was never part of the negotiations for arranging
15 a general theatre cease-fire, area cease-fire, only local. So what
16 actually physically happened in the PTT, I was never present as I was
17 always out on an observation post or down in the city at the Papa
19 Q. Thank you for the answer. Thank you for this answer, Witness.
20 Do you know if there was an operation done by the BiH army from
21 Sarajevo that would be called Jug, J-u-g?
22 A. I've never heard of a specific operation as I was not there to
23 comment on their tactical operations, really. I never heard of that, no.
24 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.
25 I would now like to go back to those two observation posts. I
1 would like to talk about the Papa observation post. I believe that
2 phonetically the abbreviation stands for "Presidents." You told us that
3 there were five Papa posts, and then later on a sixth Papa observation
4 post was implemented. Is that correct?
5 A. The number designations are correct but it does not mean that
6 there were six specific posts manned by UNMOs. To avoid any confusion,
7 when a new position was put in place, it was the next number on, whereas
8 we would remove people from an observation post but that position still
9 maintained a number.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, while you were still working at the Papa
11 posts, I believe 1 and 5, you knew nevertheless that outside there were
12 some observation posts called Lima. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Witness, do you know what is the reason why there has never been,
15 as it seems, observation posts, Lima observation posts, at the southeast
16 of Sarajevo?
17 A. I couldn't comment on where any of the Lima posts were because I
18 was never informed of where they were because I did not need to know.
19 Likewise, my opposite number on the Lima side, he didn't know exactly
20 where the Papa side observation posts were. So whether there was one in
21 that position or not, I wouldn't know. And whether he tried to put one in
22 there, again, I wouldn't know.
23 Q. Witness, were there any Papa zones to the southeast of Sarajevo?
24 Were there observation posts called "Papa" to the southeast of Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, there was one.
1 Q. Can you tell us which one, please.
2 A. Papa 6, which I'm pointing to on the map. It was directly south
3 of the Bistrik barracks on, I think the hill is referred to as Colina
5 Q. Witness, do you know if there was an observation post
6 independently of its name, whether it's Papa or Lima, but an observation
7 post that was supposed to observe the Mount Igman?
8 A. The only observations that we would do on Mount Igman would have
9 been from Papa 5, which is in the west end of the city, and that looked
10 directly west over the plain, and then you could see on the right-hand
11 side down to Dogude [phoen], across the plain, up to Mount Igman. Whilst
12 I was there, we tried to negotiate a position, a Papa position, on Mount
13 Igman, but we were unsuccessful, whilst I was there anyway.
14 Q. Witness, when you say that you were unsuccessful, what do you mean
15 by that? Somebody stopped you from erecting an observation post?
16 A. I went to Mount Igman once with a colonel and where we wanted to
17 put it, I don't think they wanted us to be there for some reason. And
18 there was also questions of accessibility to where we needed to go, and
19 then as we are moving in trees, the routes would have to be clearly
20 identified because it would be easy to confuse our movements with
21 movements from the ABiH. There was only one trip up there whilst I was
22 there. It was then held with the colonel to continue negotiations.
23 Q. Witness, thank you. Just to make sure who was the authority,
24 which camp was the side with which you were trying to negotiate?
25 A. That would be the ABiH forces on Mount Igman.
1 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. I should now like to discuss
2 military operations. Are you aware of a military operation whose name was
3 Kisik, K-i-s-i-k?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Yeah, I was bothered by an interpretation I received, but it's
7 fine now. I have another series of questions for you regarding your
8 knowledge of weapons and what was happening in your area of
9 responsibility; that is, the Papa posts generally speaking. You mentioned
10 the existence of 50 guns at Papa 1, and these were guns, I think, that you
11 defined as 120-millimetre guns. Is my memory correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Could you clarify what you actually said regarding the number
15 A. I don't have the exact transcript of what I said. I believe there
16 were only four 105-millimetre artillery pieces.
17 Q. Exactly, yes. 105-millimetre, I'm sorry, I apologise. Yes, 105
18 millimetre, not 120. And there were 50, is that right, at Papa 1? Am I
20 A. No.
21 Q. How many then?
22 A. Four. Four. It's only four.
23 Q. Very well. Could you indicate, Witness, what is a 105-millimetre
25 A. What do you mean by indicate? Do you want a picture or a small
1 comparison --
2 Q. No, Witness. But the person addressing you is no specialist in
3 military weaponry, and I don't know what a 105-millimetre gun is. I don't
4 know whether others are like me, with very limited knowledge, so I
5 wondered if you could explain for us what a 105-millimetre weapon is.
6 A. Right, okay. I understand now. 105-millimetre artillery piece is
7 fairly small, has two wheels, towed by a truck. It has quite a small
8 barrel. Either side of the barrel and in front of the wheels are
9 protection plates. The crew go behind these plates. The weapon has a
10 sight. They are given the range and indication to the target, and then
11 they would fire the weapon, which has a projectile which is 105
12 millimetres in diameter and would have a range between 11 to 14
13 kilometres, depending on the model of the artillery piece and also the
14 standard and condition of the ammunition and the skill of the crew and
15 their communication as well.
16 Q. Witness, an artillery piece of 105 millimetres, is that in fact an
17 artillery piece or not?
18 A. It is, yes.
19 Q. Very well. You stated in your previous statement that there were
20 crew members for this piece who had no previous training in military
21 warfare. Can you confirm that? Is that what you told us?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. You also said, Witness, that the majority of these men were men
24 who had no protection helmets or uniforms. Is that true?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Witness, I proceed from the principle that these people were
2 dressed in civilian clothes. Is that right?
3 A. They had a collection of pieces of uniforms. Some were in
4 uniform. The temperature at that time would mean that they would be in
5 shirt-sleeve order or T-shirts. And if they got camouflage trousers, you
6 could construe that to be a complete uniform. Other ones didn't have any
7 specific items of military uniform. It would just be jeans. So there was
8 a mix.
9 Q. Witness, those who didn't have any camouflage clothing or helmets
10 or anything at all and who were wearing jeans, would you agree with me in
11 saying that they were dressed in a civilian manner?
12 A. Yes, that would be civilian clothing, yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Witness, at the beginning of the war, and I mean more precisely
15 the time when you arrived, that is, the summer of 1992, the month of
16 August 1992, is it not right to say that many soldiers did not have
17 uniforms in the sense that one means in a regular army?
18 A. Yes, in that there was not enough equipment to go around.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, is it also true that there wasn't enough
20 offensive equipment? What I mean is one gun for four men or one gun for
21 five men.
22 A. Yeah, there was not enough small arms to go around.
23 Q. Witness, do you know if one of the strategies of the ABiH was that
24 the weapons would remain in situ, that is, on the front line, on the
25 positions, whereas the men would take turns manning those weapons? Would
1 you agree with that?
2 A. Whilst I was there, there was no ammunition for these artillery
3 pieces and nobody manned them.
4 Q. Witness, I' talking about what you referred to as SA, that is,
5 "small arms."
6 A. Yes, they would hand over the small arms, the rifle, when one of
7 them was on guard or something. They would have to hand it over as there
8 was not enough to go around. So that was my confusion. [Realtime
9 transcript read in error "there was more confusion"]
10 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
11 Do you also know whether the army, early on, organised some kind
12 of platoons grouping around one weapon, four or five soldiers with one
13 weapon, and there would be one weapon for those four or five soldiers?
14 Does that ring a bell for you?
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before the witness answers that
16 question, I note a transcript error which may not get picked up in the
17 check. That's page 14, line 4. Presently it reads, "there was more
18 confusion." I think the witness said "that was my confusion."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was my recollection as well but I was not
20 following the English transcript. By saying this, Mr. Ierace, I'm certain
21 that it will be corrected this evening.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Did you understand my question, Witness, please?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You've said "yes" twice. Is that an answer to my question?
2 A. Yes, I understand your question. Around the artillery pieces,
3 they called themselves a battery and they named it the 105th battery.
4 Around the small arms, which I think you are referring to, I saw that
5 there were no divisions such as platoons or sections. The whole thing was
6 just as a battery. So one weapon didn't belong to five; it would just go
7 according to the rota for sentry duty and things like that.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.
9 Let us imagine, Witness, that one of those soldiers dressed in
10 civilian clothing is wounded, mortally wounded. If you were to see him,
11 what would -- on what grounds would you be able to say that this was a
12 civilian or a military man who had been wounded? Have you understood my
14 A. Yes, I understand it. And for such an incident, if that were to
15 occur, the report I would produce would be that my position had received
16 incoming fire, and there was one casualty. If I were to take the casualty
17 to the morgue or to the hospital, I would just refer to it as a casualty.
18 So we didn't really have a delineation between somebody wearing military
19 clothes or somebody wearing civilian clothes. And this is hypothetical
20 because I was never put in that position to do that.
21 Q. But we do agree that hypothetically, if you were to find a wounded
22 man along the front line or in the trenches dressed in civilian clothing,
23 you could not exclude categorically that this was a military man, that
24 this was a soldier?
25 A. The way that we would describe that is that they were parts of a
1 militia force, so as part of a militia, they do not have sufficient
2 equipment. So physically I could describe them as wearing civilian
3 clothes but it was that he was male, female, dead or alive, rather than
4 reference to what he was wearing. So it will be difficult to give a
5 finite answer to that question.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Talking about militia, could you tell us, until when, as far as
8 you know, did this militia remain active, knowing that you stayed until
9 January 1993 in Sarajevo?
10 A. By a militia, it would be a specific group of people that are
11 working to a common objective. And the front lines were manned for the
12 entire time that I was in Sarajevo, and the people manning those had
13 varying degrees of equipment. So I don't quite understand what you're
14 trying to ask me. But all the front lines were manned when I left. Some
15 were manned by uniformed people and some not.
16 Q. Let me rephrase my question. You yourself spoke about militia a
17 moment ago. Were you referring to what was known as the "Territorial
19 A. By a "militia," that would indicate it was not a paramilitary
20 organisation, as a militia is quite a specific group of people. I haven't
21 come across the term "Territorial Defence" before.
22 Q. Could you define briefly and succinctly what you mean by
24 A. Militia would be a group of people drawn into a conflict, working
25 to a common aim, commanded by a common headquarters and undertaking
1 military training as and when the conflict would allow and would do
2 effectively what's commonly known as on-the-job training. Before the
3 conflict, they would not be in the military and so would have minimum
4 knowledge of military operations. Does that answer your question?
5 Q. Very well. You have certainly answered a part of the question,
6 Witness. Witness, so these militia were not wearing uniforms because they
7 were basically clothed in civilian clothing?
8 A. Yes, because there was not enough military uniforms to go around.
9 Q. Thank you. But if these militia were active on the front, they
10 were armed, some better, some worse. Is that right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Witness, could one say that
13 these were, in a sense, civilians who armed themselves for a purpose X,
14 defence of barricades or anything else? Would that be right?
15 A. Working to a common aim, yes.
16 Q. As you have repeated what I said, so armed civilians pursuing a
17 common aim. Is that right?
18 A. [Previous translation continues]...
19 Q. I think I heard you correctly. I don't know whether the
20 transcript will reflect it. Could you repeat your answer? It has not
21 been reflected in the transcript. You said "correct," did you not?
22 A. Correct. They were armed civilians.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Let me now go on to another group of questions concerning heavy
25 weapons in Sarajevo, and not armed militias that we have just been
1 discussing but heavy weaponry. Witness, could you please look again at
2 this map to your right, the topographic map and not the sketch. You spoke
3 to us during your last hearing. You spoke to us about shelling that
4 occurred from a position close to post 6, I think it was, with a weapon
5 which was moving laterally, I think you said. Do you recollect this fact?
6 A. Yes, traversing, yeah.
7 Q. Could you, to refresh our memories, tell us briefly where this
8 took place? Where did the firing come from?
9 A. From the area that's marked on this map, where I'm pointing now by
10 the blue arrow that points to the north with a short line through the
11 centre of it.
12 Q. Very well, Witness. You have told us that the shells fired from
13 this position landed on the town. Could you please remind us where they
15 A. Firing from the position I've just said, over my head, and I was
16 at position 6, on the map in blue, and the landing on the roof tops in the
17 centre of the city and then traversed to the right and to the left in this
18 area marked with the letter "I."
19 Q. Witness, in answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said
20 that in your opinion, this was shelling of a civilian area. Do you
21 confirm that?
22 A. Yes, that was a civilian area.
23 Q. Very well. Witness, last time I put to you a certain number of
24 questions to see whether you could localise with precision the address of
25 the headquarters of the 1st Corps and the address of the brigades, and you
1 told us that you could not. Do you remember that?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Very well. Witness, do you know where the MUP was, M-U-P, the
5 A. No, I've never heard that term before.
6 Q. Very well. Witness, if I were to tell you that within the 1st
7 army corps, the MUP had its headquarters in the area that you yourself
8 marked, would you believe that this was still a shelling of civilian area
9 when there were important military targets there?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
11 MR. WAESPI: I think since the witness said he doesn't know what
12 MUP is, I'm not sure whether it's very helpful if he is asked whether the
13 headquarters of such an unknown quantity for the witness was a military
14 target or not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that if the witness
17 doesn't know what the MUP is, which has been described as the police
18 academy or secret service, he certainly knows what the 1st army corps is,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You said the MUP was in the 1st army corps. That's
21 what the translation --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't say that,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just read the English transcript. Witness, if I
25 were to tell you that within the 1st army corps, the MUP had its
1 headquarters in the area that you yourself marked, that's what the
2 translation says.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I was focussing
4 on the question that within that area was both the MUP and the 1st corps,
5 and the headquarters of the 1st army corps, which are two different
6 targets, one next to the other. The MUP is in Benevolencija Street, and
7 the 1st Corps right next to it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can't check exactly what you said in French,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but still the objection says that if you don't know
10 what the MUP is, then you should take that out.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can rephrase it,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, if I were to tell you, and that is what I think I told
16 you a moment ago, that within this area there were two targets, one, the
17 headquarters of the 1st army corps, and secondly, the services of what is
18 known as MUP, which -- police institution of great importance, as a
19 specialist, would you then consider that to be a military target?
20 A. My answer would be that the firing of that weapon is completely
21 indiscriminate. If the location of the headquarters were known, then you
22 would use a specific weapon to fire at it.
23 Q. Witness, my question does not concern the weapon. It only relates
24 to the presence of military targets, a headquarters of the 1st army
25 corps. Is that something that is also sometimes defined as police academy
1 or are these military objectives, objectives of a military nature?
2 A. The corps headquarters would be a military target.
3 Q. Thank you for your answer. When you say all headquarters,
4 Witness, do you mean the headquarters of a brigade for instance as well?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: Just a clarification. Maybe my friend hasn't read
7 the transcript. I think he answered, "The corps headquarters would be a
8 military target" and not "all headquarters."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what is in my recollection as well. So
10 of course, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, might not follow the English transcript but
11 it should be corrected if it's not correctly in there. May I remind
12 you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that when the witness asked you -- answered your
13 question about the military target, that your question was about
14 shelling. You said, "I'm not talking about the kind of weaponry," but you
15 were talking about shelling when you initially asked your question.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't see where the
17 problem is, Mr. President. I said that I was leaving light weapons to go
18 on to heavy weapons.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When the witness answered that it would have been an
20 indiscriminate -- what does he exactly say? It was an indiscriminate --
21 you said, "I'm not talking about weapons" but your question was about
22 shelling, so about heavy weapons.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But at
24 first, what I wanted was simply to be told whether we are talking about a
25 military target or not. The question of whether this or that weapon was
1 being used comes next. This was -- I was talking about the location in
2 the first place.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Well, of course,
4 shelling is not a weapon, but we use that word for heavy arms. So you are
5 using that word in your question, so if you say, "I was not asking about
6 that," you did ask about shelling in that area. You asked whether the
7 shelling was on a civilian target or not. But let's leave it for the
8 moment. But please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.
11 Q. I'm continuing, Witness. You said that the headquarters of an
12 army corps would be a military target. Witness, would the headquarters of
13 a brigade also be a military target?
14 A. Yes, it would.
15 Q. Thank you --
16 A. Is that NATO brigade or some other formation? A NATO brigade is
17 thousands of men. I'm not sure how you break up brigades.
18 Q. I cannot answer that question, first of all, because I'm not a
19 military expert and secondly because, at the time, I don't know whether
20 the BH was a member of NATO. I think not. And therefore, I'm talking
21 about a brigade in the general sense of the word.
22 A. How large is your brigade?
23 Q. It's not my brigade, but a brigade generally has 2 and a half
24 thousand to 3.000 men, I think.
25 A. Then a brigade headquarters is a legitimate military target.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer.
2 Witness, in view of the involvement in the conflict of police
3 forces, would the headquarters of the police of the same level of command
4 also be military targets?
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: The question presumes two things: Firstly, an
8 awareness on the part of the witness, with some precision, as to whether
9 the police at all times were combatants. There is not that evidentiary
10 basis for the question to be asked. And secondly, it's a matter for the
11 Tribunal to finally determine. The question is inappropriately asked of
12 this witness unless there is some particular expertise that the Defence
13 draws upon of this witness. At this stage, that hasn't been established.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The
17 question that I asked was what is sometimes known as a mirror question,
18 that exactly the opposite is asked to what the Prosecution asked: Wasn't
19 this indiscriminate shelling of a civilian area? What I'm doing now is to
20 try and establish a balance. And if we had command centres of the police
21 of that level, would that not be a military target? And I'm only doing
22 what the Prosecution has done but the mirror opposite. And I think that
23 the Defence cannot be prevented from asking such a question because, on
24 the one hand, the witness is a man, with his military expertise, can
25 clarify things for all of us. And secondly, if the witness cannot answer,
1 he has only to tell us that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, a military man such as this witness
4 can certainly comment on whether military headquarters are a legitimate
5 military target. That is uncontroversial. We have heard evidence in this
6 trial to date that reserve police officers undertook a military role. We
7 have also heard evidence that regular police officers didn't. There has
8 been some qualification of that as well. There is not an evidentiary base
9 that this witness speaks of which allows the Defence to go the next step
10 and invite the witness to declare whether a police headquarters in the
11 context of Sarajevo in the context of August 1992 to January 1993 was a
12 legitimate military target. That is the difference between a police
13 station and military headquarters in relation to this witness's opinion.
14 Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, may I ask you a question in between. Do
17 you have any knowledge of involvement of either regular police or reserve
18 police in the combats, in the military activities in the period when you
19 were there, of course?
20 THE WITNESS: I never saw a policeman on the front line.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, but my question is whether you have any knowledge
22 of --
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- involvement of the police, either reserve or
25 regular, in the military activities?
1 THE WITNESS: No, the police were just the civilian side.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it's not of great use to ask
4 hypothetical questions on the issue to the witness. Please proceed.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
6 Mr. President. I shall, therefore, ask another series of questions of a
7 different nature.
8 Q. With regards to heavy weaponry, Witness, you have told us that
9 your services were to observe, to check and surveil the mobile means
10 enabling the firing of mortar shells by making them mobile; in other
11 words, by moving them from point A to point B. Which were those mobile
12 means? Would you please be able to describe to us what they were?
13 A. There may have been confusion, as we didn't monitor any mobile
14 mortar units whilst I was there.
15 Q. Witness, did you not state that there were mobile means and that
16 you were also in charge of tracing them and discovering them, in other
18 A. Whilst I don't have my transcript, if mortars had been reported
19 firing from an area, I may well have been tasked to go to that area, such
20 as a hospital. But invariably, we would be chasing things that would have
21 moved on, if they were there in the first place. So we didn't monitor
22 mobile mortars.
23 Q. Witness, when you talked about firing from the Kosevo Hospital,
24 you stated that you did not personally see any traces on the ground coming
25 from the use of mortars. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You stated, and I'm talking about your statement on page 4375,
3 that apparently those mortars would have been mounted on something. Would
4 you please tell us, according to you, what were these mortars mounted on?
5 A. Well, not having a copy of that transcript in front of me, I would
6 say it would have to have been something mobile. I may well have said a
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate the line for me,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I have page 4375 --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Mr. President,
11 I worked on the French transcript, I must say. So I do not know if the
12 pages are the same. But of the French transcript, it is on page 4375 and
13 the lines in question are the lines 11 and 12. This is only the French
14 text, however. I could probably be able to find you the English text, but
15 what I have in the French version is that it was probably mounted on
16 something else. And in fact, later on, if you wish, I could give you some
17 time to find it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have some difficulties in finding it.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Would you like me to search
20 for it in the English transcript?
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... already.
22 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if we can assist Your Honours, it's on page
23 4373, on line 16, and it -- well, perhaps if my friend wants to use it, he
24 can put it to the witness himself.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to move closer to the
2 microphone, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I still have difficulties. Did I understand you well
4 you said 4373, Mr. Waespi?
5 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And then line?
7 MR. WAESPI: 16. It starts on line 15, "But I didn't see any base
8 plate marks." And then it continues.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I must have a different transcript then.
10 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The one I am using is the uncorrected Microsoft
12 JUDGE ORIE: You said "plates." I could look for "plates" and
13 that would certainly give me --
14 MR. WAESPI: "Plate marks."
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just found the English
16 transcript. I opened it, actually.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I've found it with the search engine. It's 4364,
18 line 7, in the final version.
19 Let me tell you, Mr. Harding, what the question was at that moment
20 on the 25th of February and what your answer was. The question was: "You
21 said that you checked the area around the Kosevo Hospital and tried to
22 find the location of the mortar. And you mentioned these markings, the
23 plate marks. So did you observe or did you observe any such marks?" Your
24 answer was: "I found no marks on the ground to suggest that a mortar had
25 been firing." I still have no mobility yet.
1 The next question was: "So if a mortar was fired, apparently the
2 evidence is if that mortar was fired, what kind of mortar use would that
3 have been?" And your answer was: "The staff sergeant didn't specify a
4 calibre, but it was going to be noticed." I still do not get at the
5 mobility of --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Continue reading.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the mobility
9 will come actually at a later point. I just wanted to establish this for
11 JUDGE ORIE: The last part of this answer was, "But I didn't see
12 any base plate marks, and therefore it must have been mounted on something
13 different." That was your answer.
14 Now, please, repeat your question.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
16 Q. Witness, let's go to the next page of the transcript actually. If
17 it was mounted on something, this something, could it have been mobile?
18 Could it have been a truck, for instance, technically speaking, of course?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have stated on the following page that
21 the forces, the UN forces for which you were working, asked you to verify
22 if those trucks, such trucks actually were moving throughout the city and
23 if they were actually used. Is that correct?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
25 MR. WAESPI: If he indicates, my learned friend, a specific answer
1 by the witness, it will be helpful for the witness, especially after that
2 happened a month ago that --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, with
4 pleasure. However, I just wanted the witness to say it for himself. I'm
5 not going to give him his answer. I may read you his answer. The answer
6 was: "Yes, you were asked to look for such means, but you and your men
7 had not found any."
8 Q. Do you confirm this, Witness? I'm talking about mobile means, of
10 A. Yes, we were tasked to look for things and we never found any.
11 But we would have reported such --
12 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer.
13 Witness, is it possible to carry in a civilian vehicle, a simple
14 ordinary civilian vehicle such as for instance a Golf VW, not to mention
15 the precise vehicle, a small mortar calibre, 80 millimetres, for instance?
16 Witness, could you please say your answer out loud.
17 A. A small car, you could carry it. Whether you could fire it, I
18 wouldn't be able to comment.
19 Q. But it is absolutely possible to mount and to transport such a
20 device, to actually fire from a vehicle and then to dismantle it and to
21 leave with the same vehicle. Is that possible?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, my friend packs into his question now several
24 issues, and I think the witness already said that he could not comment on
25 whether it could be fired with it. And that's one of the aspects he has
1 asked again. So if my learned friend could just divide his questions into
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not quite
4 the same question. The witness said, "To fire from a vehicle, I don't
5 know." And consequently, I was already subdividing my question. But my
6 following question was: "Is it possible to carry it, to mount it outside,
7 to fire, to dismantle it, and then to bring it back in the same vehicle
8 such mechanism? Is it possible? Is such a mechanism possible?
9 A. Those three stages, yes.
10 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.
11 Such a mobile device that hypothetically would be moving around
12 the city, is it a legitimate military target when one uses the firing
13 called a "counterbattery firing"?
14 A. A counterbattery firing, yes.
15 Q. Thank you for this answer.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would have
17 more questions, but I don't know at which time you wish to take your
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we started at a quarter past 2.00,
20 so we'll have a break at a quarter to 4.00. Another 15 minutes. Yes,
21 please proceed.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Then I
23 shall continue.
24 Q. Witness, thank you for giving us such precise answers.
25 Witness, did you see in Sarajevo during your stay there civilian
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 vehicles that would have stickers either on the dash or on the windows of
2 the vehicle?
3 A. Stickers, what do you mean by "stickers"? Because yes, they have
5 Q. By "stickers," I mean stickers that would identify a vehicle as
6 being a military vehicle.
7 A. I saw many vehicles. And if they were military ones, they tended
8 to be painted green and painted by hand. But there were a lot of vehicles
9 being moved around, a lot of white Volkswagen Golfs, for example. But
10 specific stickers, I can't recall such things because it has been nearly
11 ten years ago now.
12 Q. Witness, you were talking to me about a white Golf or white
13 Golfs. Were those vehicles requisitioned by the army?
14 A. I was told but I never confirmed that they came from the
15 Volkswagen factory which was to the north of the city. I think it's in
16 the area of Vogosca. I saw -- I had a chance to look at it once through a
17 pair of binoculars, and I saw a lot of white Volkswagen Golfs still parked
18 there. There were an awful lot of them. Whether they had been
19 requisitioned or acquired, I was never able to confirm that, if that
20 answers your question.
21 Q. All the answers satisfy the person that asks questions. But with
22 regards to this vehicle, Witness, did you know if the drivers were able to
23 find fuel easily?
24 A. Again, I can't answer that question really because --
25 Q. So then during your mission there, when we talk about pumps, gas
1 stations, were they distributing gas on a regular basis to civilians?
2 Were they operating normally?
3 A. I can't answer that question. That would be UNHCR. I got my fuel
4 from the PTT and French battalion. So I don't know if they had
5 difficulty finding their own. I really can't answer that.
6 Q. Thank you for this, Witness. I would like to go back to the
7 hospital now and still with relation to heavy weaponry. We had a
8 witness --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And, Mr. President, I believe
10 that we can talk about a previous testimony heard without referring to the
11 witness in question.
12 Q. But we have heard a witness testifying to the effect that the
13 hospital had undergone direct firing from the inside of the city. Were
14 you able, as an observer, to examine traces of these -- of the shootings
15 on the Kosevo Hospital which would have been direct shots coming from
16 inside the city and not from outside the city?
17 A. No. The damage that I inspected was on vertical sides of the
18 hospital and so did not come from the city centre. They were north-facing
19 slopes -- north-facing walls, sorry.
20 Q. Witness, still with regards to the hospital, is it technically
21 possible that one may have opened the fire with mortars, either
22 small-calibre mortars or large-calibre mortars, from the roof of the
24 A. The roof, technically, I suppose, it would be possible to fire
25 from a roof, but I didn't look at the roof. Looking at it from that
1 position, it didn't really occur to me from the roof, because that's not
2 where the staff sergeant indicated.
3 Q. Witness, do you know if a team of observers checked the roof of
4 the hospital to see if some mortar traces were found there?
5 A. No, we wouldn't go up there at that time. And none of my troops
6 went up there to do so.
7 Q. Thank you for this answer.
8 I would like us now to move on to the PTT building. We are
9 talking about the central building of the PTT that you have in memory. Is
10 that correct? Is that so? Thank you. Now, could you please turn to the
11 map that's on your right and tell us, where is the central PTT building,
13 Witness, would you kindly show us on the map that area.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. The PTT --
17 Q. You are talking about point P. Is that correct?
18 A. That's right, yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, just to avoid any confusion, would
20 you be able to show us where was the Presidency, and I would like to check
21 on this map. The Defence was not in possession of one. I just wanted to
22 know if the president was not written as well, indicated as well with a
23 letter P. Would you please be able to tell us where the Presidency was as
25 A. [Indicates]
1 Q. Did you mention this with regards to the map?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, let's move on to --
4 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry, my friend, the witness, I think, wanted to
5 answer or at least explain where he pointed -- he has pointed to.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what you intended to do, Mr. Harding?
7 THE WITNESS: I did, because the HQ is adjacent to the
8 Presidency. So that is not the exact position of the Presidency. If the
9 Presidency is regarded as the main building in the centre of the city, we
10 were immediately east of it in an adjacent building, and that's Papa
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I see that my learned friend,
13 Mr. Waespi, is giving me his wonderful support. I shall certainly hope
14 that this cooperation will continue.
15 Q. But Witness, would you please go back to the map. Turn it
16 around, flip it around, please, and put it back where the PTT building is.
17 I believe it's on the other side of the map. Thank you.
18 That is correct. We can see on our screen point "P," which
19 represents the PTT building, and right under -- over it, actually, we can
20 see point 5. I believe that that represents the Papa 5 post where you
21 were at some point. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's Papa 5.
23 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.
24 Witness, how were you able to communicate when incidents would
25 occur between the Papa positions and the Lima positions?
1 A. Papa side never communicated with Lima side. It was always with
2 the PTT, and we were on different radio frequencies.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, in order to communicate between the two, between you and
6 the others, you were using the PTT structures. Is that correct, PTT
8 A. The UN-supplied radios, if that's what you mean, yeah.
9 Q. I have no doubt that you were using UN devices. But were you
10 actually using, in the proper sense of the word, the technical assistance
11 in terms of networking? Were you using the local PTT for its network?
12 A. When I first arrived, the telephones still worked, but we would
13 still use the radio. Administration would be carried out using the
14 telephone. After a while, the power went down, and so we only had the
16 Q. Very well. Witness, if at the very beginning you were using the
17 PTT installations, do you know if the government, the said government army
18 was also using PTT installations for their own needs?
19 A. If the telephone worked, then I would expect them to use it.
20 Yeah, it's reasonable.
21 Q. Witness, did I understand you directly, did you say, in fact, that
22 the civilian PTT were also being used for military communications? In
23 terms of means, when we talk about civilian installations, were the
24 military using those installations? At least at the very, very beginning.
25 A. Well, when I first arrived, I had very little contact with the
1 ABiH. But if the telephones worked, then I would presume that they would
2 use them.
3 Q. In other words, the civilian PTT infrastructure was actually being
4 used for military communications? Were they assisting the military?
5 A. As I said, if the telephone worked, then I would expect them to
6 use it. But once they went down, then it was just radios. So I can't
7 really comment from experience, only from a personal judgment type of
9 Q. Very well, thank you. Witness, do you know if at the beginning in
10 fact the army, so-called government army, had for themselves very
11 important radio communications which were enabling them to be in touch
12 with the other army corps throughout the whole Bosnia, and this, of
13 course, was in the general concept of the defence?
14 A. I guess they had their own communications setup, so how they went
15 about that, I didn't have any experience of it. But I'm sure that they
16 had their own communications, if that answers the question.
17 Q. Witness, when you say "I suppose," do you know for sure or do you
18 just infer this?
19 A. Well, you can't run an army without communications. Therefore, I
20 would presume that they had communications and an army in a modern-day
21 context, rather than historic.
22 Q. So are you telling me that communications means are indispensable
23 for an army?
24 A. There is a significant advantage to have communications, if that
25 answers your question.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a few
2 short questions, but I do believe it would be quite important to take a
3 break right now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... until quarter
5 past 4.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed in cross-examining
9 the witness.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Witness, can you hear me?
12 A. [No audible response]
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 Witness, the name of Major Henneberry, does it say anything to
15 you? Does it ring a bell?
16 A. Major Henneberry, Canadian army?
17 Q. Maybe indeed, Major Henneberry. Is his rank major?
18 A. As far as I can recall, yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Was this commander active during the time
20 that you were in Sarajevo? Did you know him?
21 A. Major Henneberry was another military observer.
22 Q. Did you work with him, Witness?
23 A. I'm trying to remember. He may well have been on the headquarters
24 staff. He wasn't one of my staff on Papa side. So whilst I recognise the
25 name and connect to the service, I can't recollect any actual dealings
1 with him.
2 Q. Yes, but did you know him personally?
3 A. Only on a professional basis.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should now
6 like to read a statement, two and a half lines or three lines in English,
7 of a statement made by this Major, Mr. Henneberry. May I do so? And
8 after that, I will have a question for the witness. This is Exhibit
10 MR. WAESPI: What's the nature of this document? Is it a witness
11 statement or is it an attachment to a witness statement or a document?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have an extra copy so in order to give
13 Mr. Waespi the opportunity to have a look at it?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I don't have a copy,
15 Mr. President. But it is simply a statement of a witness taken by
16 representatives of the Prosecution and which we have in front of us. But
17 there are only three lines that I would like to read.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think usually, there's no objection, Mr. Waespi,
19 or? Usually --
20 MR. WAESPI: We would like to see the statement before it's quoted
21 to the witness or even shown to the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, usually, if you are quoting from a certain
23 document, the other party is informed about at least the use of the
24 document. So if you could just give it for Mr. Waespi perhaps for one
25 minute so that he can have a look at it.
1 I can expect the Prosecution to be prepared for prior statements
2 of this witness but, of course, not of every witness.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Which line do you intend to quote,
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? You have given it away now, isn't it?
6 MR. WAESPI: Is it the bit you have indicated, my friend, with
7 blue ink?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think it is the one but
9 last paragraph on this page, three lines. But the document was produced
10 by the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: We have no objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, I'm going to read to you what was stated by the military
16 officer that we were referring to a moment ago, this major in the Canadian
17 army, regarding the 3rd of December, 1992. [In English] "... news said
18 Serbs shelled airport. We watched and reported Muslims shell airport from
19 Mount Igman, Ilidza. (Again, the news reports were wrong and the wrong
20 side took the blame internationally for actions they didn't start.)"
21 "The wrong side took the blame for actions they didn't start."
22 [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, were you informed of
23 shelling that took place on the 3rd of December, 1992, of the airport
24 shelling from Mount Igman?
25 A. The only shelling that I recorded and can note on the 3rd of
1 December was the offensive on Otes, and we had no observation posts on
2 Mount Igman and we had nobody off to the west side of the plateau over
3 towards Ilidza or Butmir, so I wouldn't be able to comment on anything
4 coming out of Mount Igman or behind Mount Igman.
5 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
6 Mr. Richard Mole, was he your superior?
7 A. For a period of time when I was in Sarajevo, yes.
8 Q. Could you remind us of that period of time?
9 A. Colonel Mole left Sarajevo on the 24th of December, 1992, and
10 Lieutenant Colonel Cutler took his place. As to when he moved in, I
11 cannot give you an exact date of that, but it would have been
12 approximately September 1992.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know, Witness, whether Mr. Richard Mole made a
14 statement, like you, for this Tribunal, a written statement?
15 A. I understand he has been approached, but whether he made a written
16 statement, I don't know. I have spoken to him purely out of courtesy but
17 not with specific regard to any activities or any specific incidents.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.
19 Let us assume that commander Richard Mole did make a written
20 statement, and let us also assume that he said, and I will summarise the
21 following, that the Sarajevo forces, that is the so-called governmental
22 forces, placed certain weapons in the vicinity of the Kosevo Hospital.
23 Unfortunately, I only have the text in Serbian, which says, "in the
24 vicinity of the Kosevo Hospital."
25 Do you know whether we are talking here about other weapons than
1 the mortars that it has been established were used in the vicinity of the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The witness my learned friend is referring to,
5 that's Mr. Mole, will be a witness here. And I don't think it's
6 appropriate for this witness to comment on something the originator of
7 this witness statement can do himself.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not asking
10 for any comments on the statements of Mr. Mole. I'm just asking whether
11 this witness also knows of any other weapons in addition to the mortars
12 that were referred to being localised in the vicinity of the Kosevo
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... any reference is
15 necessary to another witness, which -- but of course, you can ask him the
16 question if he -- perhaps the answer would be different than a
17 confrontation. Another statement would be most helpful, perhaps.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I took the liberty of doing
19 this. It is only because I wanted to know whether this witness worked in
20 a team with Mr. Mole who saw this, so that's all.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. You're not asking for any comments
22 but asking for information known to the witness personally. Yes, please.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me repeat my question,
25 Q. Did you see in the vicinity of Kosevo Hospital other weapons or
1 guns in addition to the mortars that we referred to a moment ago?
2 A. There were the armoured personnel carriers which we have spoken
3 about before. But any other weapons like mortars or anything like that,
4 then no.
5 Q. What do you mean, "armoured vehicles," Witness? You're referring
6 exclusively to what is known as the APCs?
7 A. Yes. Armoured vehicle, APC, yeah.
8 Q. Thank you for your answer.
9 Witness, are you aware of firing in the period while you were in
10 Sarajevo that came from the position Papa 4 in the direction of the PTT?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. As for men, you said during your testimony
13 that you knew that there were about 50 men at Papa 1, and 50 at Papa 4,
14 approximately. Would you agree with those figures as being those that you
16 A. Approximately, yes.
17 Q. Approximately, thank you.
18 How many men were there at the other posts that may be of interest
19 to us, that is number 2, 3, 5, and possibly also post 6, if you know? And
20 when I say 5, I mean 5A and B.
21 A. Papa 6 is 0. Papa 5, 0. Papa 5A, 0. Papa 5B, 0. Papa 2, 5. I
22 think that covers it.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So these men you are referring to, you are referring to soldiers
1 of what is called the "government army," are you not?
2 A. Yes, if -- that's military personnel, militia personnel.
3 Q. Witness, if I add up -- if I add up, you're talking of the staff
4 of the government army of Sarajevo, are you not?
5 A. Talking about the people at those grid references, those
6 positions, as numbered, if that's what you mean.
7 Q. Yes, but those people whose number you have given, we are talking
8 about soldiers of the army, the so-called government army. We do agree,
9 don't we?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, if I add up the number of those soldiers,
12 would we agree that there were about 50 men at Papa 1, 50 at Papa 4, and
13 maybe a dozen on the outside on the other Papas, which means that we are
14 talking of a number of the order of 150 men. Is that right?
15 A. That's 112.
16 Q. Even better. Witness, do you know how many active soldiers there
17 were in Sarajevo during the period while you were there on the side of the
18 army of Sarajevo that was called the government army?
19 A. I did not gather such tactical information. No, I can't give a
21 Q. Witness, if I say to you that more or less everyone agrees that
22 there were 75.000 soldiers recognised as such by the government army,
23 would that figure be acceptable for you?
24 A. That's a general consensus, as I couldn't give a figure.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, if the observation groups at Papas 1 to 6
1 monitored or supervised some 120 soldiers, who took care of the others,
2 that is, roughly speaking, some 84.000 that remained?
3 A. The observation post --
4 Q. Sorry, 74.000.
5 A. The observation posts have interlocking arcs, which means from
6 one, on its left, it would look towards another observation post. We were
7 not there to supervise the troops, as they could do as they wanted, but we
8 could observe 95 per cent of Sarajevo and its environs. When we saw
9 military activity, we gave a grid reference which would be six figures,
10 which brings it down to a 100 metre square. We did not allocate which
11 side was doing at that grid reference. We simply reported the military
12 activity as we were unarmed military observers. We were there not to
13 count people or supervise them.
14 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. A few more technical
15 questions with regard to the city. Do you know what Zetra is?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You never heard any mention made of the Olympic stadium to the
18 north, close to the Kosevo Hospital? A hangar close to the Kosevo
20 A. The Olympic stadium, as in the running track and open area in the
21 middle, was one of the Papa positions. We referred to it as the "Olympic
22 stadium" rather than an area name such as if that's what Zetra is. But
23 yes, I know about the Olympic stadium.
24 Q. Do you know whether there were any hangars or halls that were used
25 as hangars close to that area?
1 A. Olympic stadium that I talk about had seating all the way around,
2 and underneath it was where we had some military observers. I walked
3 around approximately half of that -- you could get vehicles parked in
4 there, if that's what you mean by hangar. But in the middle of the
5 stadium was grass, it was a football pitch. And when I first arrived you
6 could not go out into that area because it was covered by a sniper. So
7 by "hangar" I would infer an aircraft. No, you couldn't get that under
8 the stadium seating.
9 Q. No, but next to the stadium, was there a covered area which was
10 used as a hangar or as a warehouse and that was called Zetra?
11 A. South of the stadium, there was a large structure that I was
12 informed used to be the indoor ice skating rink, and that had severe
13 impacts that I saw on the roof, and was burnt out. I had no cause to go
14 into just a burnt-out building. We only went to the stadium as I've
16 Q. Did you see equipment, military equipment, or troops next to that
17 structure that you said was partially burnt?
18 A. Not that I recall. There were people around, but I didn't really
19 pay much attention. We just drove on past that road. It was going
20 towards the front line there, and the building was burnt out.
21 Q. Do you know or do you not know whether there was any ammunition
22 dump of the army there?
23 A. No, that would be the first I've heard of it.
24 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
25 Do you know whether the schools were used during the conflict also
1 for the stationing of troops?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When you say "no," does that mean that you didn't know or that you
4 are disputing it?
5 A. No -- no, I don't know where any of the schools were, either
6 civilian or military.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 Do you know, Witness, whether there were special prisons in
9 Sarajevo opened during the time, of course, that you were there?
10 A. No, that would be outside of my operations. In the PTT building
11 were members of the Canadian Royal Mounted Police, and they would have
12 dealt with that, I would presume, but not me as a military observer.
13 Q. Witness, when you arrived in Sarajevo, that was in the summer of
14 1992, was it still possible to see active so-called paramilitary
16 A. The only thing that I witnessed were the militia that we've spoken
18 Q. But you did not see paramilitaries on one side or the other?
19 A. By "paramilitary" I presume that you mean a small group of people
20 working to their own objectives, and no, I was out on an observation post
21 and so had no experience of paramilitaries from either side, and I had no
22 connection with Lima side for my entire period there.
23 Q. Witness, when incidents occurred, so-called sniping incidents,
24 what would happen in terms of information? To whom would you communicate
25 that an incident had occurred, if to anyone?
1 A. If the incident had been witnessed by an UNMO, he would then
2 report it using the instant report, and that would go to Papa
3 headquarters, and then into PTT. But only if he witnessed it. If he was
4 told about it but didn't witness it, he could not report it.
5 Q. Yourself, did you ever report such an incident of which you were a
6 witness, an eyewitness, for instance?
7 A. I was sniped at myself, but I didn't report it as it was just an
8 incident I shouldn't have -- I should have paid more attention to where I
9 was going. I myself, apart from that, I was ambushed twice, and I did
10 report it.
11 Q. Witness, you talked to us about the Presidency a moment ago, and
12 you indicated it on the map with the pointer. Who was, in Sarajevo, the
13 Supreme Commander of the armies, at the time of the offence?
14 A. In the Presidency was a civilian government and they came -- they
15 would come and go. So it's difficult to answer that question.
16 Q. I will stop you right here. My question is the following: Who
17 was, in term of the structure of the organisation, the Supreme Commander
18 of the armies?
19 A. In the Presidency, I would presume Izetbegovic.
20 Q. Thank you for your answer.
21 Witness, where were the premises where Alija Izetbegovic would go
22 and his services would be stationed? Was it the Presidency building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, since you just told us that the Supreme Commander of the
25 armies was Mr. Izetbegovic, and that the Presidency represented his -- was
1 it a military target since he was stationed in the Presidency building?
2 A. If that's how he was viewed, then you could say that as the
3 government, the leader of the government, he is ultimately as the army is
4 one of his unit -- not units, one of his departments, but he was the
5 civilian head of it rather than a military head. When he came and went,
6 it was covered by international press. That was how we would find out due
7 to being next door to him. But I would presume because he was a civilian
8 leader, there was an agreement between Lukavica and the Presidency that
9 they would not shell each other's headquarters. That was the
10 understanding that I was under, with my headquarters right next door to
11 the main Presidency building. I cannot -- that was purely by word of
13 Q. You're telling us that there was an agreement to exclude from all
14 shelling commanding zones in question. Is that what you're telling us,
16 A. To shell the Presidency building with the civilian leaders would
17 hinder any progress with regard to negotiations. I was under the
18 understanding that on that basis, the Presidency building right next door
19 to me was not going to be a specific target; likewise, if Lukavica came
20 under attack, it would also hinder those discussions. So it is difficult
21 for me to say if Izetbegovic, from my point of view, was not a military
22 leader. He did not wear a uniform. He did not carry arms, but the armed
23 forces are usually under the command of the civilian leader.
24 Q. Yes, who was, of course -- it became a military leader when the
25 war was declared. But let me move on to something else which you just
1 said -- I'll withdraw what I just said. What you said, Witness, you were
2 not aware of any specific agreements that would have been passed between
3 the parties, agreements which would implement that some zones were to be
4 excluded from shelling?
5 A. The only building that I was aware of was the Presidency, and that
6 was purely by word of mouth. PTT undertook discussions like that, and I
7 was not there to make any political comment.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, one or two questions more. Do you know if on the Lima
12 side, were there also positions surveilling or observing sniping
14 A. I would expect a Lima position to report all that it witnessed.
15 So if it witnessed a sniper firing or was subjected to sniper fire, then I
16 would expect it to report it as we were under a common remit.
17 Q. Were you -- between Papa and Lima, were you in telephone
18 communication? Were you able to communicate in any other way?
19 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness has answered that already, Your
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know if the witness
24 had answered if for within the Papa area or between, the communications
25 that existed between Papa and Lima. This is what I wanted him to clarify
1 in his answer.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes. Witness, would you be able to answer that question?
5 A. I did not have any direct communications with anybody on the Lima
6 side. It was all through the PTT.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know if any investigation was made following
8 incidents reported by Lima to Sarajevo authorities, the so-called Sarajevo
9 authorities, with regards to sniping incidents or shelling incidents?
10 A. No, because I was unaware of his activities.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know if an agreement, an anti-sniping
12 agreement, was in some way made and then implemented by General Galic? Do
13 you know this?
14 A. I haven't heard of any anti-sniping agreement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: I move to rise to my feet by that question on the
17 basis of Rule 90. If my learned colleague has instructions that
18 General Galic indeed was a party to such an agreement during the tenure of
19 this witness, then it is incumbent upon him, it is required by the Rules
20 that he put that to this witness or otherwise indicate it to the Tribunal
21 if it is inconsistent with the evidence of this witness. In other words,
22 this is perhaps an example of where Rule 90 is not being followed as the
23 Defence is required to follow it. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understood
1 what my learned colleague just said. But what I wish to say here -- what
2 I wish to obtain from this is that the Prosecution states that
3 General Galic would be responsible for a campaign that he either organised
4 or allowed to be organised, that the elements of a campaign be
5 orchestrated. So he allowed the existence of this campaign. According to
6 the Prosecution. But I would like to know if this witness would know what
7 he would know of the facts that could have happened even after his stay in
8 Sarajevo but that is covered by the period covered in the indictment. If
9 this witness heard that the General Galic wished that this agreement be
10 implemented and if he participated to the drafting of this agreement, then
11 he will tell us. If he has not heard of anything like this, he will tell
12 us that he hasn't. But if each time the Defence asks a question in order
13 to find or to get closer to the truth, if every time we get structured
14 objections by the Prosecution, we will not therefore be able to approach
15 and get closer to truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I first notice that I'm a bit
17 surprised that I now get two counsel to object against questions. That's
18 not what we allowed the Defence to do and I think that's not the way the
19 Prosecution should do it. I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin explained the
20 relevance of the issue raised and -- although I still owe the parties, and
21 it will come soon, a further answer on what I would say was a submission
22 of the Defence, not a specific request, nor was it an application for
23 ruling. But I think still this week, I'll explain why the objections from
24 the Defence do not stand where they think that Rule 90(H) could not be
25 applied. But here we see, I would say, a clear situation where the
1 witness is able to give evidence, at least, that's what the Defence seeks,
2 whether the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for the
4 If we look at Rule 90(H)(ii), we started: "In the
5 cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence relevant to
6 the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to that witness
7 the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel appears which is
8 in contradiction of the evidence given by the witness." That means that
9 if the witness has given evidence which would contradict the case of the
10 Defence, then of course in order to -- I would say to protect the witness
11 rather than anyone else, to protect him against any confusion or any
12 uncertainty as what he is confronted with, then you should put the case to
13 the witness.
14 But as far as I see now, we are in a situation where the Defence
15 seeks whether the witness is able to give evidence relevant to its case,
16 but we have not entered yet a situation where the testimony of the witness
17 has contradicted the case of the Defence. So for this moment, I would
18 deny the objection.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, certainly given Rule 90, that is the
20 only conclusion that one could draw, that the witness's evidence has not
21 contradicted the Defence case. In relation to the ruling that will be
22 handed down later this week, there was a decision of another Trial Chamber
23 handed down last week.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. IERACE: If you're aware of that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I've thoroughly studied that decision, yes.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, as I try to catch up what I -- where I was before, some
5 will probably say it's not as difficult, but I am now slightly confused.
6 Witness, I will ask you the question. I will reiterate my
7 question: Did you at any point, given your competence and given your
8 military career and your experience in Sarajevo, had you heard at any
9 point that General Galic would have participated, would have taken part,
10 in the preparation of an agreement which would be called an anti-sniping
12 A. That General Galic would have been in negotiation with Colonel
13 Mole or Colonel Cutler, once something had been arranged, then he would
14 have informed me so that that could be monitored. But at the time and up
15 to the time when I left, I wasn't informed of such an agreement. But he
16 wouldn't have told me because it wasn't in place, and therefore, it was
17 still on his agenda as in my colonel, be it Mole or Cutler.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, a few more questions relating to military
19 technique. Do you know what orders are, what we technically call
20 directives, actually?
21 A. Orders, yes; directives, I take is another word for orders.
22 Q. When we talk about directives, can we say in military terms that
23 those are general orders given at the level of the general headquarters
24 given or issued towards army corps?
25 A. A directive -- yes.
1 Q. Is that the adequate term?
2 A. Well, a directive given to the corps, and then that would then
3 disseminate down through the ranks and become specific orders in order to
4 react to the directives given.
5 Q. Witness, could you please tell us what was your military rank once
7 A. At the time in Sarajevo, squadron leader, which is a major.
8 Q. I see, squadron leader. Mr. Commander, as a military man, would
9 it be possible that upon examining these directives, someone who is a
10 military man such as yourself, a man who practices the military art, to
11 read exactly what the number of men in terms of troops are ordered for a
12 certain period of time, for certain areas?
13 A. Directive would not give the specific detail exactly how many
14 people are to do what specific task. It would be up to the commanders, be
15 it colonel level or lieutenant colonel, to detail specific tasks in order
16 to comply with a directive, a directive given to the corps level to apply
17 to the corps rather than each individual man. So as the orders -- as the
18 directive comes down, it would change to orders, which then would be to
19 specific tasks. And all of those tasks collectively would comply with the
20 directive, if you can understand the dissemination as it goes down through
21 the rank.
22 Q. Very well. In other words, and if I understood you correctly,
23 upon examining the directives and then the orders, and now we're talking
24 about corps, army corps and battalions which would be respecting the
25 directive, so then it would allow practitioners such as yourself to bring
1 answers to some questions such as troop movements, the need to get
2 involved in certain military means. Is that correct?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if the Defence could indicate whether he
5 wants the witness to talk about his experience from the British army or
6 from the Bosnia Serb army or from the ABiH, whether he thinks he has seen
7 any of these, I think this would clarify the purpose for the witness.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that Mr. Waespi
9 understood very well. I'm not talking about the rules that are applied in
10 the Swiss army; I'm talking about the general principle of how an army is
11 organised; and namely, in this particular event, what happened in
12 Sarajevo. I'm not talking about the organisation of British army or of
13 any other army.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Your question to the witness is that whether
15 Mr. Harding could, from this directives, or at least a man in a similar
16 position, could, well, deduce from the directives as you indicated to
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That brings you down to the situation in Sarajevo,
20 Mr. Harding. BiH army.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. May I
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you did, as a matter of fact, as
24 Mr. Waespi asked you to do.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you're very
1 alert. You do not miss anything.
2 Q. But Witness, would you be able to answer the question I just asked
3 you earlier?
4 A. The reaction to directives would all depend on the army. NATO
5 forces allow initiative, and from directives, there are implied tasks.
6 Regarding the forces in Sarajevo, how they would react to directives for
7 either side, I couldn't comment. I could only comment from the NATO side,
8 and that is that initiative is allowed to cover the implied tasks by the
9 directives. So if that answers your question, as I've got slightly lost.
10 Q. This only answers partially my question. I shall maybe formulate
11 my question differently. Let's suppose for a moment that we are in the
12 NATO organisation, the way that army is organised. Let's say we are in an
13 army that was organised by NATO, and at the time I believe that Yugoslavia
14 was part of NATO. I'm not certain of this. I do believe that it was, but
15 I'm not absolutely certain.
16 In this army schematic, is the examination of the directive --
17 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps I can help my friend. I'm not aware that
18 Yugoslavia was part of NATO at that time. And if that's a basis for what
19 follows in terms of questioning, I would suggest to rethink.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties compromise on whether the former
21 Yugoslavia ever was part of the NATO? May I deduce from the smiles on
22 someone's faces that the parties do agree that the former Yugoslavia was
23 never a member of NATO? Yes.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my will is
25 such, I would so much like Yugoslavia to be part of this nation-wide
1 grouping that I was taking my dream as reality. But I know that one day
2 dreams can become reality, and I do thank my learned friend,
3 Mr. Waespi, to have corrected me.
4 Q. Witness, when we talk about NATO, the examination of directives
5 and then orders at the level of brigade, would that enable to deduct troop
6 movements, how much men should be brought in, what structure should be
7 made, what would be the span of the battle, and so on and so forth?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour, I'm really sorry to insist on this
10 point. Mr. Harding was an UNMO observing what happened in Sarajevo during
11 a brief period, and unless the Defence shows that he has intrinsic
12 knowledge about the NATO directives, of ABiH directives, which the witness
13 denied, I'm not just not sure it's helpful to ask these questions to this
14 witness. There will be higher-level witnesses going to channels which
15 would be more able to, and certainly military experts to answer these
16 questions. I do object to going further.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thank Mr.
20 Waespi infinitely. He reminds me of a point that I wanted to mention to
21 you earlier and I was just actually forgetting it. A long time ago, we
22 have asked to be able to consult directives and the orders. We have asked
23 a long time ago of this, and the Prosecution tells us, and I'm sorry for
24 using the Serbian expression, mala sutra, which means "never." So it is
25 very important for me to consult this. I would like to know, I wanted to
1 know what had happened in order to prepare for this witness. But the
2 access to these documents is refused to me. So we are now finally asking
3 openly and overtly when can we have access to these documents. You do
4 know that these documents exist, they are here in this building, and this
5 is my question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... is not on the
7 witness stand at this moment. It is one of the things we finished with
8 last Thursday, and you know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that I expressed as my
9 view that the Prosecution would on short notice come up with what they had
10 found and what they were able to give you access to. And I felt, as a
11 matter of fact, that part of that, and -- well, you demonstrated more or
12 less that I was not wrong -- that you're more or less asking Mr. Harding
13 whether the material you expect access to be given by the Prosecution is
14 as vital for the Defence as you deem it is.
15 I think Mr. Harding has practical experience in -- from his
16 career, so I wouldn't say that the question on what you could deduce from
17 certain directives could not be asked to the witness. But the importance
18 for the Defence case, of course, is a different matter. But I think
19 that's -- we'll deal with the issue between the parties at the end of this
20 afternoon's session when perhaps we could get an indication of when now
21 exactly the Prosecution comes up. And if you would do it on a very -- on
22 the level of factual experience, you may proceed examining Mr. Harding.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will then
24 continue under reserve, which is the following ruling, that once again the
25 Defence would like to point out that we have our hands tied and our wings
1 are clipped because we do not dispose of all the information that exists.
2 Q. So this being said, Witness, let's say if I take a grenade in my
3 hand and I throw the grenade from the roof top of a building 20 metres
4 high, what would happen to the ground?
5 A. It would receive damage. That's --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 Mr. Waespi, is there any need for the Prosecution to re-examine
10 the witness?
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there is, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Waespi:
14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Harding.
16 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour, when making references to the
17 transcripts as referred to before, I will refer to the unredacted
18 Microsoft version.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you find a very specific word in the parts,
20 please indicate it to me because that's easier to search than the word
21 "army" or "uniform."
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I will also read out the relevant passages
23 because it has been some time the witness testified, so I think it may be
24 easier for him to refresh his memory.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you could indicate the day, whether it
1 was the 25th or the 26th of February, that would be helpful for me.
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will, Your Honour.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Harding --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry to
6 interrupt, but you are referring to the text, the French text or the
7 English text, so that I am absolutely certain of what you're talking?
8 MR. WAESPI: The English text.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. Mr. Harding, you were asked --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Waespi.
15 MR. WAESPI: I apologise. Thank you very much.
16 Q. Mr. Harding, you were asked on the 26th of February, 2002, that
17 was on page 4434, and perhaps the key word is "no-man's land" or "front
18 line." You were asked to mark certain positions. And in doing that you
19 explained that, in some areas, it was quite a ground to be classed as "no
20 man's land" as it gave cover to neither side --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm not
23 quite certain that "no-man's land" and "front lines" mean the same thing.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. We'll find it. Even if it's not exactly the
25 same, I think Mr. Waespi was helping me to refer to a specific word in the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 text which might assist me in finding the place. Whether it's the same or
2 not is a different matter.
3 Thank you, Mr. Waespi, and please proceed.
4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. So I'm continuing to quote.
5 Q. "So it's not going to be exact because it was effectively natural
6 buffer zones caused by the lie of the land. But this is the approximate
7 location that if we were to go near it, we would have to liaise with one
8 or both sides because we would be going into an area of possible
10 Now - and that's my question - how would that liaison procedure
11 work with respect to the Bosnian Serb army? With whom would you talk?
12 A. It would be all through the headquarters staff in the PTT
13 building, and they would use liaison officers that were in the PTT
15 Q. Now, do you mean by your point you're making here that you had to
16 make contacts, that this was the result in going safely into the area you
17 wanted to go to, this buffer zone or no-man's land?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. That's your expectancy, that talking to the other side, both
20 sides, that they would ensure that you could safely go to the area?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And in fact, was that the case?
23 A. Yes, that system was used numerous times to repair city utilities,
24 for example.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding. The second point I wanted to clarify with
1 you is on page 4448, and that is again the 26th of February, 2002. And
2 the code word, Your Honours, is "coloured armband."
3 You talked about the following, and I quote you: "I hesitate to
4 call them an army," and you will later clarify which army you talk about,
5 "because I did watch troop movements going northeast. Some had uniforms,
6 some did not, but they all wore the same coloured armband on their left
8 My first question is, which army are you talking about?
9 A. The BH.
10 Q. And my second point is, do you recall the colour of these
12 A. On that specific event, it was either blue or red, but I cannot
13 say exactly which colour that is.
14 Q. Do you recall whether during the time you stayed in Sarajevo, the
15 colour changed, the blue or red colour, or it remained the same
17 A. When I -- that specific reference was to a specific military
18 activity, and they all had the same colour for that specific military
19 activity. Otherwise, they didn't wear any armbands. It was just to
20 identify them. I think you're referring to operation towards Zuc, and so
21 presumably they had that amount of material in that colour for everybody,
22 and if they had another operation, I can't say whether they would change
23 it or reuse the material that they already had.
24 Q. But you do recall that in a different operation, they also had
1 A. To the best of my recollection, there was only one other major
2 military advance that was reported to me, and they did have colour
3 armbands. But again, I couldn't tell you exactly what colour.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
5 The next point is "cable car." And perhaps you can refer to your
6 map, Prosecution Exhibit 3644. You told us still on the 26th of February,
7 2002, on page 4462, that you can see, and I quote you: "By the cable car
8 from low ground to higher ground..." And you continue.
9 Can you indicate, please, on the map where this cable car is
10 located. And if you could use the blue pen this time. Is there any sign
11 perhaps which would indicate the cable car?
12 A. On the map as presented, there is a black line clearly shown on
13 the map to a peak --
14 Q. Perhaps you can indicate by a dotted line the line of the cable
16 A. Dotted line in blue.
17 Q. And at the one end, perhaps the one closer to Papa 6, can you mark
18 it with perhaps a CC, indicating that this dotted line is the line of the
19 cable car.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you very much. The next point is, in fact, the next page in
22 the transcript which is, in my version, 4463. You mentioned when asked by
23 the Defence an incident which you described as follows, and I quote: "And
24 I observed them as they shelled the PTT building. We timed the flight of
25 their ammunition and the number of rounds that were fired. And they
1 coincided exactly with what the PTT building was reported to me."
2 My first question is, do you recall any casualties occurring at
3 this shelling?
4 A. There was no casualties as reported to me.
5 Q. Who occupied the PTT building at that time?
6 A. UN personnel, which would have been elements of the Ukrainian
7 battalion, the French battalion, the French field hospital was in there,
8 the headquarters of the UNMOs for Sarajevo. So it was all the UN
10 Q. Now, can you tell us the date of this incident, if you want and if
11 you have it with you, referring to your diary?
12 A. I will need to refer to my diary to get an exact date of that.
13 It is going to be in December or January because that was when we
14 had Papa 6. I know it was late in the day. I can't specifically remember
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, seeing that you have difficulties in
17 finding, may I just remind you that in your answer at that time, you were
18 thinking about November. That's part of the transcript. You said, "I
19 would have to look through my diary to give you an exact date, but it
20 would have been when Papa 6 was in position and operational." And you
21 were looking at November. So you were looking at November. That's what
22 you said, at least. I don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to remember exactly when Papa 6 went
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I ask which line you have,
2 because we don't have the same lines with the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... 4530. It would
4 then be line 10 in the English version.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, may I ask you how many questions you
7 still have? How much time would it take? Because if we would have a
8 quarter of an hour to go, even if it would be a bit shorter, it's very
9 uncomfortable, I think, for Mr. Harding to sit here and try to find.
10 Perhaps then we could use the break and then have the last question put to
11 him whether he had found the exact date.
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, I can imagine how it feels that you want
14 to find something. You can't find it at this very moment. So perhaps,
15 Mr. Waespi, if you would first proceed and then we'll see how to solve
16 this problem.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
18 Q. I'm moving on to the shelling incident of the 31st of October.
19 This is referred to - I'm still in the part of cross-examination - on page
20 4474. And in answering a question by the Defence, you said, and I
21 quote: "No, I cannot say where the shells came as I did not see any of
22 them firing. I was merely in the middle of when they landed."
23 Now, the day before, in examination-in-chief, you testified on
24 page 4381, that was the day before, and I quote: "Observation posts were
25 reporting seeing the impacts in the city by the sheer amount of fire in
1 the city, landing in the city. It could only have come from outside the
2 city, that being the Bosnian Serb army."
3 So my question is merely for clarification purposes. Despite the
4 fact that you did not see yourself the sources of fire, was there still
5 information at your disposition that allowed you to come to a conclusion
6 as to the source of fire in terms of from which of the confrontation lines
7 the fire originated?
8 A. Yes, because none of the Papa call signs reported seeing or
9 hearing any firing from along the front lines that they were near. The
10 sheer amount of fire landing on the city was reported by all the Papa call
11 signs. And so from that, it had to be from the outside, because of the
12 amount of ammunition that was coming in. There was so much it could not
13 have been fired from along the front lines, and the Papa observation post
14 not see it because there would be muzzle flashes, there would be smoke
15 from artillery pieces and from mortars. So you would see it and you would
16 hear it. But all they were observing were the impacts into the city.
17 Q. And when you say, and I quote you, what you just said: "It had to
18 be from the outside," which side of the confrontation line are you talking
20 A. From the Serb side.
21 Q. Thank you. Moving to a next issue, that is on page 4477, and it's
22 about sniper fire. When asked today, like the reference I just made, you
23 mentioned that you were sniped at. First, can I ask you when that was?
24 Do you recall that?
25 A. I can't give a specific date, but I know exactly where it was.
1 Q. Which is?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just want to know whether I
4 can link this to -- I'm going to 489, and I don't see page 4470 mentioned
5 by the Prosecution. So could they give us a more precise indication
6 because we have a different system.
7 MR. WAESPI: I apologise to my learned friend. The page
8 reference --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.
10 MR. WAESPI: Apologise again. The page reference is 4477. And
11 perhaps a word you could enter is "carriageway," because the witness said
12 that, and I quote: "To the east of Papa headquarters, there were signs on
13 the corners of the road so that when you cross that road, you knew that
14 you had to move quickly as a sniper had been firing down that road. To
15 the west enroute to the PTT, we used the main carriageway, and it was not
16 uncommon to be fired at when you crossed the road at the junctions."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that's page 4542, line 7 and
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I found it. Thank you,
20 Mr. President.
21 MR. WAESPI: And I just finish the paragraph: "And the fire would
22 come from the south."
23 Q. Now, Mr. Harding, you wanted to tell us where the location of that
24 incident was.
25 A. I was sniped at personally near Papa 5 Bravo as marked on the map
1 in blue ink, the small blue triangle. The shot was fired from further
2 down the hill to the west where I'm indicating now --
3 Q. If I just can interrupt you at this point. Can you please use
4 your blue pen, indicate the exact location you were at and from which the
5 fire came from, from which side.
6 A. I was at the position marked 5 Bravo, and the shot uphill from
7 down at the bottom of the valley there.
8 Q. If I can just reflect what the witness drew, he drew a blue arrow
9 directly towards the position 5B, and position 5B was the position he said
10 he was sniped at, where his exact location was.
11 Is there anywhere near the railways?
12 A. Yes. The railways are at the bottom of the valley, the railway.
13 You can see the railway lines are marked here.
14 Q. If you could just indicate one part of the railway lines and draw
15 a small line and also the letter R.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thanks.
18 MR. WAESPI: The witness just drew a dotted line with the letter
19 R, leading towards the arrow he drew a few seconds ago.
20 Q. Now, when you said in your testimony --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Solely in order to avoid
23 confusion, I think I read on the map, which is not mine, another R on the
24 map. I'm not quite sure, but I think next to the Presidency, I think I
25 saw an R, a letter R.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think there would be no confusion since this R
2 would be close to 5 Bravo on the map. But Mr. Waespi, if I may guide you,
3 this Chamber has seen maps before in their lives, and I have never seen
4 such a clear indication of a railway and even a railway plus more so.
5 Otherwise, the maps will be fully covered with repetitious characters.
6 And --
7 MR. WAESPI: I entirely agree with Your Honours, and I'm sorry for
9 Q. But perhaps to avoid any confusion, add W to the R so we know it's
10 the railways. Just a W after the R which you have just indicated.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you very much. You said that you did something foolish or
13 silly which led to you being sniped at. Can you tell the Court what this
15 A. I was going to the position marked 5 Bravo. I had other military
16 observers with me. There's a small road that leads to it which looks
17 straight down the hill towards the railway. We usually took a small track
18 to the side of the road, but for some reason I walked down the road. The
19 sniper took his shot. It passed me on my right-hand side, and the shot
20 was from between 6 and 800 metres. I then took cover along the track that
21 I should have been using in the first place.
22 Q. Do you recall the name of the road?
23 A. No. It was just a track that led to the position. We didn't deal
24 in any road names.
25 Q. At that time, did you wear anything which was indicative of your
1 position that you were a UN person?
2 A. I had a blue flack vest and I would have been wearing my blue
3 beret with the white badge.
4 Q. Was that the same outfit your colleagues had?
5 A. They would have had something similar, but they would all be
6 wearing their own national uniform. And some of them had a flack vest
7 which would be very dark blue, and others would have been wearing a bib
8 with white letters on the front with "UN" written on it. So they all
9 individually were clearly UN personnel, but we were not all dressed
10 exactly the same.
11 Q. Thank you. In concluding this issue, I would again refer to the
12 last quote I put to you, and I quote it again: "And the fire would come
13 from the south." This referred to the incident when you said there were
14 signs on the corners of the road and so on.
15 Now, when you say "and the fire would come from the south," what
16 was the south, or what was on the south?
17 A. In the south was rising ground which would lead up to the hills
18 towards Trebevic, so this is the southern area that I was referring to,
19 where the slightly wooded and urban area is indicated on the map, south of
20 Papa headquarters and south of the Presidency, which is up a steep slope.
21 Q. And which part, which side of the confrontation line was that
23 A. It would be coming from the area which -- some of which was
24 no-man's land, so it would be south of the front line as indicated on the
25 map here. This is the front line which I've drawn in black which is only
1 an approximation from my memory. It is from the area here.
2 Q. I understand that. Thanks. And south of this confrontation line
3 was an area controlled by whom?
4 A. Normally by the Serbs, because those areas of no-man's land where
5 there would be wide-open fields, but they were the dominant forces there.
6 Q. Thank you. Turning to the next issue of multibarrel rocket
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, how much time would you still need? I
9 think perhaps it's better to have the break now.
10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I agree, Your Honours. I think probably 10
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we have a break until 5 minutes past
14 Mr. Harding, if you could use the 20 minutes to go through your
15 notes, it might give you a more comfortable feeling.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. Mr. Harding, did you have a chance to go through your diary and
21 check whether you could find the date of this shelling incident?
22 A. I found an entry on the 4th of December when the PTT was shelled.
23 But my writing wasn't exactly brilliant at the time of writing in this
24 diary, and I didn't have enough time to find the specific incident where
25 we timed the flight of the ammunition rounds. But I can clearly remember
1 doing it, because it had only been a short time before I was sent to
2 Bosnia that we had been doing that as part of a British army exercise, and
3 we were controlling the fire. And it is exactly the same. And that's why
4 it's so clear in my mind. But the PTT was shelled on the 4th of December,
5 and I still need more time to go through all of my scribbling, I'm afraid.
6 Q. But you are confident that it was after September 1992?
7 A. Yes, definitely.
8 Q. Now, the second incident you had mentioned today was the incident
9 you were sniped at close to the railway system. Do you recall when that
10 happened, with or without your diary? And I guess if you don't recall, we
11 won't go through the diary exercise again.
12 A. That would have been towards the end of September, because I was
13 showing people the observation post. And to be showing them, I had to
14 have time in theatre. So it was definitely in September. The weather was
15 good and it was hot. So that narrows it down to definitely September.
16 Q. And you said end of September.
17 A. Within September, because I can distinctly remember I was showing
18 people where it was, and the weather was warm. We would be moving from
19 there shortly, and so that sort of narrows it down to the latter part of
21 Q. The next issue is the issue of multibarrel rocket launcher, and
22 it's to be found in my records on page 4481. I just have a brief point.
23 You were asked by my learned friend Pilipovic to tell --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So that we can save time,
1 would you please tell me which day you're referring to, because there were
2 two days?
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
4 MR. WAESPI: I think it's the 8th of December, 1992, as far as I
5 recall because that's --
6 JUDGE ORIE: But I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking for the 25th
7 or the 26th of February if it was during cross-examination.
8 MR. WAESPI: Sorry. Yes, sorry for that. 26th of February.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see a multibarrel rocket launcher on page
10 4543, line 22, but I still have to check the context.
11 MR. WAESPI: And the word "Zuc hill area" are also code words to
12 discover where we are.
13 Q. The only question I'm asking you about this incident is you
14 answered, and I quote: "The launcher must have been located northwest of
15 Papa 2 because of the straight line. That line goes through where I have
16 written on the map the area of Zuc."
17 Can you tell us by referring to the map where the front line was
18 in the area of Zuc at the time that you had observed the firing?
19 A. By looking at the map, there's the area of Zuc as drawn. And the
20 front line was approximately where the black line has been drawn. And we
21 were at the position here marked with a plus 1 and a number 2.
22 Q. And do you know more about the position of this rocket system, at
23 least on which side of the confrontation line which you have just referred
24 to was it positioned?
25 A. The rockets flew directly overhead, which gave us one point. We
1 watched them land to the east of Papa headquarters, which gave us another
2 point. We then did a back bearing and draw the line, and we could then
3 deduce that it came from in the area northwest of our position. We were
4 fairly close to the front line because we were observing shelling.
5 Therefore, the shots must have come from the other side of this hill,
6 which then put it on the Serbian army side. The front line could be seen,
7 because we had just seen shelling on the front line, and it was on the
8 other side. It was northwest.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
10 The next point I want to clarify with you deals with page
11 reference 4458, and the buzz word is "self-propelled artillery." And this
12 is again the 26th of February, 2002.
13 You answered a question by the Defence, and I quote: "At Papa 2,
14 there were self-propelled artillery known as the 2S1, and there was a
15 counterbattery radar mounted on an armoured vehicle which I do not know
16 the designation of. Throughout my time, to the best of my knowledge,
17 these vehicles never moved, and there was no maintenance carried out on
18 them and they were further down the hill from Papa 1."
19 My question to you is, did you ever see any of these weapons
20 firing from Papa 2?
21 A. No, definitely not.
22 Q. Or are you aware of any reports that any of these weapon systems
24 A. There was an observation post northeast from those guns, and they
25 never reported any firing from that area.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
2 The next issue, and we are coming close to the end, you were asked
3 whether you had -- and this is on page 4458 and 59, you were asked whether
4 you had, and I quote: "Any problems when setting up Papa 6 positions."
5 And the code word is "reconnaissance" in French. The English
6 word, I guess, the same. Your answer was: "Yes, we did. The initial
7 problem was trying to find a location where we could put the observation
8 post. During our initial reconnaissance, we were fired at by 12.7
9 millimetre machine-gun, and we had to withdraw down the hill."
10 Do you recall in your observation who fired at you?
11 A. The Bosnian Serb army.
12 Q. Now, I continue quoting you: "We then moved to the west and found
13 the location which eventually became Papa 6. And then all of the grid
14 references for Papa 6 observation posts, I was informed that they were
15 given to the Lima side to give to the Serbian army so that they know
16 exactly where we were. Within 24 hours, every OP had been engaged and
17 fired at by either mortars or artillery, and a round of mortar landed
18 directly on top of the building that we were using as the observation
20 Can you tell us who engaged every OP?
21 A. We didn't see weapons actually firing but -- and we didn't have
22 any reports of any outgoing firing from any of my observation posts, which
23 by that time covered the majority of the city, and so I would say that it
24 was from the Bosnian Serb army, as they were the only ones that had been
25 given the six-figure grid references, especially of Papa 6 because it was
1 a new location.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.
3 The last two questions are as follows, and they originate from
4 comments you made today: You were asked about the functioning of
5 telephone communication at the PTT building. In your recollection, when
6 did the telephone system stop working?
7 A. It would be difficult for me to give a precise date on that,
8 because we were using radios at that time. I would say it would have been
9 the end of August, beginning of September. It's really difficult for me
10 to say because we didn't use the telephones.
11 Q. And my last question would be, what was the most common car used
12 in Sarajevo while you were there?
13 A. A white Volkswagen Golf.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure of the
16 relevance of this question, and also what part are we talking about with
17 respect to the users?
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, the question has already been
20 answered. Your objection is denied, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The question as
21 such is not inadmissible.
22 The answer had been given already, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. That concludes my
24 cross-examination -- I'm sorry, re-examination. At one time, perhaps now
25 or after you had your questions asked, I would like to formally introduce,
1 tender, the exhibits which come with Mr. Harding.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Waespi, I suggest that we'll deal with that
3 when the witness has been led out of the courtroom. But of course, we'll
4 not let the witness go until I've checked whether any of my colleagues or
5 myself still have questions for him.
6 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to be put to you.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You have just said that the white Volkswagen
9 Golf was the car which was more commonly used in Sarajevo, and a moment
10 ago, you said that the army used white Volkswagen Golfs as well. My
11 question is: The people in general, the individuals which -- who were not
12 members of the army, used the Volkswagen Golf as well?
13 A. The Volkswagen Golf seemed to be used by a lot of people and it
14 continually gave us cause for concern, as one of our vehicles was the
15 white Volkswagen Golf and they kept stealing pieces from it. But it was
16 used by a cross-section of the population as well as ourselves. So some
17 people would be met wearing a military jacket, and others would be in
18 complete civilian clothes. We never stopped any of them to identify what
19 they were doing and where they were going. So it was a complete -- I
20 would say it was a cross-section of the population.
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions to put
23 to you.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 My first question relates to the cars, especially the Golf cars
1 that you have seen in quantity. You've seen a lot of them, you said. You
2 also told us that you thought that it was impossible to fire mortars on
3 cars, but that it was possible to mount them on top of vehicles and to
4 carry them and then fire from a position. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. The mortar, take it apart, put all the pieces in the car,
6 and then drive somewhere and then take it out and reassemble it outside of
7 the car, and then it could be fired.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you mean without bringing any
9 modifications to the car?
10 A. By laying down the seats and producing a cargo area, the mortar
11 components themselves are man portable. But you couldn't -- then the
12 mortar would have to be set up on the ground, and then fired and then
13 taken apart again. The mortar concerned, for example, it can be taken
14 apart and troops can parachute with those pieces, which gives you an idea
15 of how large they are.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the calibre of mortars,
17 according to you, what were they? If we suppose that they were fired from
18 the perimeter of the hospital, can they reach the target? The trajectory
19 Of the mortar, what would it be? If a mortar is fired from within the
20 hospital circle, could it actually achieve or reach the target, to your
22 A. The mortars in question are 82-millimetre mortars. They have a
23 range of 3 kilometres, which would take them out beyond the front lines
24 when fired to the north from the hospital. So they were very capable of
25 firing into the area held by Bosnian Serb positions.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I see. So if we understand
2 correctly, you have stated during your cross-examination on the 26th of
3 February that Mount Igman was under Serbian control. Is that correct?
4 A. Mount Igman was under -- Mount Igman is under Bosnia -- ABiH
5 control, not the Serbian control.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. And you have stated that
7 the front line would shift in the sense that in that region, it would
8 change places, or during the time you were there, was the Mount Igman
9 always under the control of the ABiH?
10 A. Mount Igman was always under ABiH control.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And I have but one last question
12 for you, Witness: I would like to know, what is your definition of
13 "militia"? You told us that there were some differences between militia
14 and paramilitary groups, according to you. The definition is well known
15 in the military jargon, and if I understand correctly, the difference that
16 you see in the two is based on the fact that militia is still under a
17 command, and on the other side, the paramilitary groups are not under the
18 control of a predetermined commander. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And according to you, those who
21 were members of the militia, and in this particular case of the Bosnian
22 militia, were these men militiamen or paramilitary men? Were they under
23 the control of a military authority or are we talking about groups that
24 did not have a unique commandment?
25 A. These militia were under the control of a military authority and
1 they were not working to their own aims and objectives. They were
2 controlled from outside of their battery.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, since I've no further questions for you,
5 this concludes your, I would say, split-up testimony given in this Court.
6 But I see that Mr. Waespi might be of a different opinion.
7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, only shortly or for a short while, Your Honours,
8 just two clarifications of points which came out of questions --
9 JUDGE ORIE: The questions of the Judges. Yes, of course. And if
10 we -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] It's a little bit of a
12 never-ending story when things seem so clear. If the Prosecution wishes
13 to start up and open another round of questions, we will stay here and we
14 will listen to this. But we would prefer actually that this does not
16 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is of the opinion that of course no new
17 issues can be raised at this very moment, but if it is an issue that has
18 been touched upon by the questions by the Judges, then you're allowed to
19 put these questions. And of course, the story is ending, but not ending
20 before the Defence then has had an opportunity to put additional questions
21 in only this respect to the witness as well.
22 Yes, please, Mr. Waespi.
23 Further re-examination by Mr. Waespi:
24 Q. Just a point to clarify about the white Volkswagen Golf cars, you
25 said earlier that some were painted green and by hand, I understand, to
1 identify them as military cars used by the army. Is that what you are
2 saying, or can you tell us how that relates to the white cars still used
3 for whatever purpose and the green repainted cars?
4 A. As I said, some had been painted obviously by hand and brush, and
5 I can only presume it's because they were to go near the front line, and
6 it was to tone them down so they would not become an easy target. As to
7 who was driving them, I would presume that it would be the military
8 personnel. But they were very prominent because they were painted by hand
9 rather than spray.
10 Q. And the second point is also for clarification purposes: You
11 talked a lot about militia and the questions asked by the Judges, by Your
12 Honour, also relates to that. For you, was the ABiH, the Bosnian Muslim
13 army, a militia army as a whole or did it have sort of component parts
14 that were militia in the way you defined it? Can you tell us the
15 relationship between the militia and the ABiH?
16 A. I'm referring to militia, it was the personnel manning the
17 105-millimetre artillery battery, because -- some had uniforms, some did
18 not. As their training would progress and presumably they got more
19 uniformed, they may well all have the same uniform but they still did not
20 have a large amount of military training. But they are working to a
21 common aim with command from a higher authority. To answer your question,
22 it would be they would get more uniform but they would still in essence be
23 a militia because they haven't had the training. But by looking at them,
24 you wouldn't really be able to tell unless you questioned them.
25 Q. And when you say they were part of the military hierarchy, you
1 mean the ABiH hierarchy with ultimately what you answered Mr. Izetbegovic
2 as the commander in chief?
3 A. Yes. They had command from a higher authority, and the difference
4 being that a paramilitary would write their own objectives, and if they
5 didn't all agree with it, some of them would then break away as another
6 paramilitary group and work to their own objectives. And there is the
7 difference between a militia and a paramilitary. Paramilitaries work on
8 their own, to their own benefits, whereas a militia is locally recruited
9 civilians given military training as soon as possible, equipped as best
10 they can and work to a common aim.
11 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi. Any need to put additional
13 questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, to say what the
15 Prosecution just said a few minutes ago, it's just some points of
16 clarification. May I?
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, give you the opportunity to --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you have talked earlier about these Golf
22 vehicles that were painted by hand and with a brush. And this was done
23 especially when they were to be sent near the front line, if I understood
24 you correctly, so that they don't become "easy targets." Did I understand
25 you correctly?
1 A. It was a presumption that they were to go near the front line.
2 And if they were to, then it would stop them becoming an easy target, an
3 easily observable target.
4 Q. Witness, do I understand you correctly when I attempt, for
5 instance, to interpret your words with regards to these cars having been
6 artisanal [phoen] paint that basically they were done -- it was not a
7 professional paint job that was done in this case?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Very well. Witness, since we do know very well that there wasn't
10 enough fuel in Sarajevo, do you know if the paint was available as well?
11 A. I don't know what the fuel state of the city was. And as regard
12 other supplies, I didn't interact with that side. That would be the
14 Q. Did you see paint shops in Sarajevo that were selling paint?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps that goes beyond the mere issue of
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. President,
19 that everything that is very clear may look obscure to the Prosecution,
20 but I do believe that I'm trying to clarify the point.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The question was, did you see paint shops in Sarajevo
22 that were selling paint?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, no, because most of the shops were closed, and
24 I wouldn't know what they were selling because we didn't go into any of
25 the shops, if you can understand. I wouldn't know a paint shop if it was
1 written in a foreign language.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any further clarifications to be asked,
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, just a few,
5 Mr. President.
6 Q. Witness, is it possible that a large number of these white Golf
7 vehicles that came out of the factory could not have been painted just
8 because, in fact, there weren't enough paint available?
9 A. I don't know how much paint there was available, so I can't really
10 answer that question.
11 Q. Very well. Earlier, you talked about white Golf vehicles in which
12 people in uniform were. Do you confirm this?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in fact, can we say that there were more white Golf vehicles
15 than Golf vehicles painted in what is known as camouflage paint?
16 A. We were referring to the number of Volkswagen Golf vehicles
17 generally, and there were a significant number of them. As to the
18 division between how many were painted in camouflage and how many were
19 not, I couldn't really make a statement because that would depend how many
20 came down or drove through the city when I personally happened to be
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. And the very last question, Witness: On page
25 17, line 5 and on the line 6, in answer to a question by the Prosecution
1 with regards to the militia, the question was, Was the militia armed when
2 they were on the front, and you answered yes in general terms. But in
3 order to avoid any confusion and with regards to your last question with
4 regards to militia, I would like to know, Witness, that when you talked
5 about militia, you were talking about all the people and not only all the
6 concerned people by this definition, and not only by some members that you
7 were able to observe on positions Papa 5 and Papa 1?
8 A. No, the term "militia" cannot be applied to everybody because a
9 militia is a locally recruited person who is given training. Therefore,
10 it can't apply to everybody. It would only be those given the training.
11 Q. Witness, I will stop you here. My question was the following:
12 You said what militia is. You said that all the people who are concerned
13 by this definition and not only some people manning artillery weapons that
14 you were able to observe positioned at Papa 1 and Papa 4?
15 A. It would have been those people at other parts of the front line
16 that have been locally recruited.
17 Q. So your last answer given to the Prosecution did not encompass
18 just some workers, some people who were situated at Papa 4 and Papa 1?
19 A. It encompasses those people at Papa 1 that were manning the
20 artillery. They were not to be considered workers because their job was
21 the artillery.
22 Q. Yes. This encompasses them, but it is not exclusively, it is not
23 only these people. Do we agree with this?
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Harding, see whether I
25 understand the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin well. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do
1 you intend to ask the witness whether, apart from the people you saw at
2 Papa 1 and Papa 4 and which fall within his definition of militia that you
3 would find elsewhere members of militia as well? Is that...?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is what the
5 witness already stated while giving an answer earlier. But since his very
6 last answer seemed more restrictive, I just wanted to clarify.
7 JUDGE ORIE: He wants to know whether you saw people falling
8 within the definition of militia apart from Papa 1 and Papa 4 at other
9 places as well.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 Well, Mr. Harding, I was a bit quick when I said that we concluded
16 already your examination as a witness, and that we still had to deal with
17 the documents. But no more questions for you. Thank you very much more
18 coming, coming twice even, and answering all the questions. I know it has
19 been quite a long time that you have been with us in this courtroom.
20 Thank you very much for answering the questions and thus in assisting both
21 the parties and the Court to perform their tasks. Thank you very much.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you guide us through the
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, would you please listen very carefully
2 when the Madam Registrar tries to guide us through the papers, since it is
3 already a long time ago and I'd rather not make any mistake.
4 Madam Registrar, what do we have on our list?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3662, six photographs. Exhibit P3661,
6 UNPROFOR report from squadron leader Harding. P3660, UNPROFOR report,
7 Carl Harding. P3644.CH, map marked by witness. D53, a map.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Let me just first ask
9 Mr. Waespi whether all the documents he intended to tender have been
10 mentioned by the registrar.
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there is -- it's correct what the registrar
12 said. This is this after-incident report which is Prosecution Number
13 3659, which has already been signed by Mr. Harding which was given to us
14 by Mr. Harding at the same time like the two battle-damage assessment
15 reports. And we would also propose to tender -- they were also listed on
16 that letter which we have given.
17 THE REGISTRAR: I do have copies of that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
20 believe that at the time, and in spite of the fact that the Defence had to
21 prepare in a real hurry, we had accepted the photographies, so that
22 everybody can know what we're talking about. But I believe that the
23 question as to the admissibility of reports was a pending question,
24 Mr. President. And I do not remember if you had rendered a decision. I
25 believe that the Defence had said at the time that we do not find it
1 admissible, that in extremis some documents be produced, that the
2 Prosecution is trying to -- had in time or was able to consult for quite a
3 while, and we didn't agree with the fact that we were presented with these
4 documents shortly before the hearing. And we believe that these documents
5 were not communicated to us in due time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I'll inform the Defence that the
7 registrar just informed me that a full set of colour copies of the
8 photographs are available since, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you raised the issue
9 on whether the objection that you received a copy of the report only
10 shortly before the trial would not change even although the
11 cross-examination of Mr. Harding was resumed approximately one month
12 later. The Chamber prefers to give its final decisions on these issues
13 tomorrow and not today. This gives us an opportunity, first of all, to
14 once again read your objections again and see what your additional
15 argument today would add to that.
16 So we'll give a final decision on the documents by tomorrow. This
17 brings me to another practical issue. As I indicated before, I'd ask the
18 Prosecution by the end of the afternoon session when during this week,
19 because I do understand that it was during the first week of April that
20 this Chamber can expect the report and the results of the checking the
21 contents of the file on those documents that the Defence would like to
22 have access to.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that will be later in this week. As I
24 indicated on the 14th of March, a search was commenced last week. There
25 are various stages of that search process, some of which involve a
1 computer search, and then some final filters. I will have that response
2 to you, as I undertook on the 14th of March, by the end of week. It may
3 be earlier than the end of the week.
4 Mr. President, on that date, the 14th of March, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
5 raised some further categories of documents that he wished. And in
6 response before you, I declined to provide those documents. Of course, it
7 is open to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to explain the relevance of those documents,
8 and if dissatisfied with the Prosecution's response, to raise it with the
9 Trial Chamber. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- so we can expect at least the results of the
12 search by the end of this week. Let me add, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have
13 stressed several times that the hands of the Defence are tied by not
14 having had access to the documents you're seeking. Of course, it's
15 difficult for the Chamber to give a decision on it now, but if it would
16 turn out that both the documents were in the hands of the Prosecution and
17 they should have been disclosed, or at least it would be unfair that you
18 had no access to these documents at the time you need them in order to
19 cross-examine the witness, if that would finally be the situation the
20 Chamber finds is the situation the Defence was in, then of course we could
21 grant an opportunity to recall the witness in order to be cross-examined
22 on these documents as well. Of course, I can't say at this very moment
23 whether this would be the situation.
24 But apart from your own responsibility to try and find the
25 documents you need, this might be the situation the Chamber finally might
1 establish to be the one the Defence was suffering from.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I, Mr. President?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we have to
5 recall this witness, it is a theory in the Greek sense of the word that --
6 the theory of a witness that we would have to recall, and I mean quite a
7 number of witnesses. We had this witness, and I asked a question
8 regarding a shelling of the 3rd of December. If we had these elements in
9 our hands, I could have asked a whole series of other questions which
10 might have perhaps have proven in your eyes the unfounded character of
11 accusations against Mr. Galic. I did not have the possibility to do
12 that. I didn't have the possibility to do that for other witnesses,
13 experts who were familiar with the situation on the spot. And each time
14 we were lacking this information. I know that it exists; I definitely do
15 not understand why the Prosecution cannot allow members of the Defence
16 team to have access, maybe even under armed control. It doesn't matter.
17 So that we will go wherever the Prosecution tells us to go. But we need
18 to have those documents. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course this Chamber does
20 understand that you seek to obtain these documents from the Prosecution,
21 and it might be that they are there and it might be that they are material
22 for the Defence. We don't know yet what's in the hands of the
23 Prosecution. We'll get a report on that. Until now, I have seen no
24 further signs -- you said perhaps I'll write them a letter and see whether
25 I can get anything. You know that under the Rules in this Tribunal that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 if you need the assistance of a Chamber, you should show that you have
2 taken necessary steps to secure the assistance of a state in order to get
3 the documents. You have to identify them, and then you can seek the
4 support of the Trial Chamber. Until now, I've seen no application under
5 Rule 54 bis, and I heard a lot of complaints about the Prosecution not
6 providing these documents. Of course, we'll see what the report is; but
7 as I have stressed before, it's the primary task of the Defence itself to
8 try to get them. And of course, if they are there and if the Prosecution
9 is under an obligation to provide them to the Defence, I expect them to do
10 so, and that's the reason why we asked the report from the Prosecution.
11 And as I understand, we get it by this week. But as you may have noticed,
12 I and this Chamber has stressed both sides of the problem, the Prosecution
13 side and the Defence side.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are waiting for this report
17 clearly, but what we wanted to say is that we have already clearly stated
18 which documents we need, and if we don't get the report as promised, we
19 will intervene by presenting all the letters that we have sent.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... under 54 bis, you
21 should address the state authorities. And I don't know whether there's
22 any correspondence. But please keep in mind that of course, in
23 order to assist the Defence, all the requirements put by Article 54 bis
24 should be fulfilled.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing else. 7.00. We'll adjourn until tomorrow
2 morning, again, at 9.00 in this same courtroom.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
4 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
5 Wednesday, the 3rd day of April, 2002,
6 at 9.00 a.m.