Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7654

1 Monday, 22 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think we still have to tender the

13 exhibits.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is due from Mr. Donia. Could I please ask

15 for the assistance of the registry? Madam Registrar, could you help us

16 out.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 368 -- P3683, report of Robert Donia, two

18 binders and supporting material.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to that exhibit, there are

20 some additional materials: P368A, which is the binding contain the

21 open source material; P3683B, which is a videotape in six parts titled

22 "Death of Yugoslavia." I have those at the bar table now. A copy has

23 been provided to the Defence. P3683C, which is the audiotape of the

24 speech by Radovan Karadzic. You may remember, Mr. President, the Defence

25 wished us to tender that as well. The transcript is at tab 200 of binder

Page 7655

1 number 1, so perhaps I could hand over those materials.

2 "The Death of Yugoslavia" is footnote 15 of the open source

3 volume. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Ierace.

5 It is admitted in evidence.

6 Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, if you allow

8 me to do so. After my learned colleague suggested for these records to be

9 adopted, my learned colleague objected to the record and binder number

10 2/2. This is a record. We don't know whether it is of the 14th of May or

11 of the 12th of May. Our objection relates to the authenticity of this

12 record, given that we didn't have the opportunity of seeing the original

13 of this document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find out. Is that the meeting

15 subsequent to the meeting -- I haven't got any materials with me at this

16 very moment.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, it

18 is a record, the command of the 1st Partisan Brigade.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is the meeting --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] In brackets it says: The 14th of

21 May.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It is not being presented by General Galic, according

23 to the testimony, is that the --

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you: I don't remember that there were

Page 7656

1 any specific questions as to the source of where it came from. Of course,

2 I heard several questions about how this was drafted, but not as to the

3 source and Mr. Donia found it. Is my recollection correct?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I

5 understood Mr. Donia, the document which was used by Mr. Donia to write

6 his expert report, these were documents that were given to him by the

7 Prosecutor. The Defence had this document at an earlier date before Mr.

8 Donia used it for his expert report. My learned colleagues disclosed it

9 but the problem was that, at our meetings, we never spoke about the

10 authenticity of the documents. So that we now find ourselves in a

11 situation in which I would like to contest or object to the authenticity

12 of this document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any specific reasons why the Defence takes

14 that it might not be an authentic -- a copy of an authentic document?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is because at the

16 head of the document it says, "The Command of the 1st Partisan Brigade."

17 As far as we know, in that area, we had the 30th brigade and at the time

18 General Galic was the commander of the 30th division. So with regard to

19 the stamp and the signature by the person who is the -- who took the

20 minutes, we have a line and it says "cap," and it has been struck out. We

21 don't know what capacity that person was at the meeting because we can't

22 see whether it was a captain 1st class or just a captain. We don't know

23 who crossed this out on the last page of this record.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a decision after the break specifically

25 in respect of this document.

Page 7657

1 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: In the meantime, Mr. President, could I just note

3 that my recollection is that if one goes to the original of the document,

4 that is the B/C/S version, one can see quite clearly a line through the

5 "captain" in that document and, therefore, it appears that the transcript

6 into the English language merely faithfully records that. In any event, a

7 line through those words hardly raises an issue as to the accuracy of the

8 translation. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So the P3683 and the annexes A, B, C are admitted,

10 but a decision on the document just referred to by Ms. Pilipovic will be

11 taken after the break.

12 Madam Registrar,

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D99, judgment in B/C/S; Exhibit D99.1,

14 English translation; Exhibit D100, B/C/S article entitled "Cunning

15 Strategy, Sarajevo 1997", D100.1, English translation; Exhibit D101,

16 article in B/C/S entitled "On People in Front of the Assembly are Shooting

17 Our Snipers"; D101.1, English translation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to Exhibit 100, I have no

20 objection to the tender of the passage which is translated into English

21 and, of course, the B/C/S passage which covers that. The document is some

22 pages in length but there is only a translation of one paragraph, so I

23 have no objection to that paragraph.

24 In relation to Exhibit 101, I object to that tender. You may

25 recall, it appears to be a magazine article relating to certain events on

Page 7658

1 the 5th of April, and it was put to Mr. Donia that it contradicted his

2 account in respect of events on the 6th of April. He then pointed out the

3 discrepancy in the dates, and I think at that point it lost all potential

4 relevance. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, would you like to respond,

6 perhaps first to D100.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to

8 document D100, the Defence has only had one part translated, the part from

9 the book which is relevant with regard to Mr. Donia's testimony, since Mr.

10 Donia didn't speak about the Patriotic League as a military

11 organisation formed within the Party of Democratic Action. And the

12 Defence didn't have other parts translated, so I am not sure which part my

13 colleague is objecting to as far as the text from the book is concerned,

14 that is to say, the article.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... it is not

16 translated, as far as I understand. Yes. So it seems that the parties

17 agree on what is tendered, yes?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is fine. As far as

19 document 101 is concerned, it is true that in the article it mentions the

20 5th of April and that Mr. Donia in his expert report spoke about the 6th

21 of April. But in response to our question, Mr. Donia said that on the 5th

22 of April, too, people gathered near the Assembly, around the Assembly, and

23 that on that same date, the 5th of April, citizens were fired upon. So

24 that this document supports Mr. Donia's allegations as well as what is

25 stated in his expert report, that is to say that it was on the 6th of

Page 7659

1 April.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether that is an allegation of such,

3 but Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: I think the most important point, Mr. President, is

5 that there was no cross-examination pursued in relation to the documents

6 so once the date discrepancy was established and, therefore, it lacks any

7 probative value. There has to be more of a nexus, in my respectful

8 submission, in order for a party to tender into evidence a hearsay

9 document, than what we have here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute between the parties that there

11 has been shooting both on the 5th and the 6th of April? I mean, not on

12 whether it is Juka Prazina or not but on whether there was shooting.

13 MR. IERACE: No dispute on that, Mr. President, according to my

14 recollection of the evidence of Mr. Donia.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So if there is no dispute on that, I think that that

16 was mainly used to, well, as you said, to allege that certain people

17 might have shot at the crowd at that very moment, and there has been no

18 further cross-examination on that issue. It stopped after it was

19 established that it was a different date.

20 Of course, this leaves entirely -- it is entirely up to the

21 Defence when presenting their case, if it is relevant, to come up with

22 further details as far as what happened on the other dates. But we will

23 give a decision after the break but we will take into consideration what

24 the parties have made as their observations.

25 I think then D100, there is no dispute as to what part should be

Page 7660

1 admitted. So D100 and D1001 are admitted, that's just the passage, and we

2 will give a decision after the break on D101.

3 Madam Registrar, I think that was all. Yes.

4 Now, Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call its next

5 witness?

6 MR. IERACE: We are, Mr. President, and that witness will be

7 taken by Mr. Stamp. Before that occurs, Mr. President, you will recall

8 that I handed up last week a fresh translation of a document that came in

9 through the witness Trto.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Would now would be a convenient time to --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could do it right now. That was the new

13 translation with the two dates.

14 MR. IERACE: There were some pages missing, or a page missing from

15 the original translation. It's P1675, that is the exhibit number for the

16 B/C/S document, and a translation was requested of the missing page and,

17 in fact, we received in return a fresh translation of the entire document.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: If it is accepted into evidence, I suggest that it

20 be .2, so the .1 remains the original translation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This is the first time the Defence receives the new

23 translation or -- yes? So perhaps it is better to take a decision after

24 the break. If, Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there is any

25 objection against it, I would first like to give you the opportunity to

Page 7661

1 have a look at it and to study it. And the Chamber then also can have a

2 look at it.

3 Anything else, Mr. Ierace?

4 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President. Might I be excused

5 during the evidence of the next witness?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

8 Mr. Stamp, is my understanding correct that your next witness will

9 be Witness AI and that a pseudonym, voice and facial distortion is granted

10 in respect of that witness?

11 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President, that is correct.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that the voice distortion, which is

13 usually the most problematic, has been set by now so that we could

14 proceed. Is that correct? Yes, Madam Registrar.

15 Then if all the protective measures are effective, Mr. Usher,

16 could you please bring in the next witness.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AI, because that is how I will call you,

21 protective measures are in effect in respect of you. That means that your

22 face cannot be seen by the outside world. Your voice cannot be heard in

23 its original sound by the outside world, and you will not be called by

24 your name, but you will be called "Mr. AI."

25 Mr. AI, before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

Page 7662

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Page 7663

1 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration, and the

2 text of that declaration will now be handed out to you. May I invite you

3 to make that declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, very much. Please be seated.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS AI

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AI, you will first be examined by counsel for

10 the Prosecution, Mr. Stamp.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. AI. Firstly --

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Firstly, I am going to ask you to look at a document, and say

17 nothing after you look at it.

18 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, may I have the witness

19 shown P3682.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher.

21 MR. STAMP:

22 Q. Mr. AI, by answering "yes" or "no," can you tell me if you see

23 your name on the document?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. And do you see your date of birth?

Page 7664

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 Do you live in the city of Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And for how long have you lived there?

6 A. 45 years.

7 Q. Did you live there during the period 1991 to 1995?

8 A. Yes I did.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The transcript, it just says

11 "1991."

12 MR. STAMP: That perhaps is the French transcript.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

14 MR. STAMP:

15 Q. Can you recall being injured in a shelling incident in 1994?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you recall the date of this incident when you were injured?

18 A. The 22nd of January, 1994.

19 Q. At the time you were injured, where were you?

20 A. I was returning from a search for food. I was going home. I was

21 in Alipasino. It is part of the town. It is the Alipasin bridge or

22 Alipasino Polje.

23 Q. You were returning home. Could you tell us how you were

24 travelling?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7665

1 Q. By what means were you travelling?

2 A. Well, I was on foot but Alipasino Polje consists of -- I live in

3 "C" phase, and I was returning from "B" phase because that was the

4 closest way to get to the "C" phase. And in that part, in the "C" phase,

5 as I was returning home, I was wounded there.

6 Q. Could you tell us exactly what happened? As you walked, did you

7 hear anything?

8 A. The distance between the "B" and "C" phase, I was passing through

9 the "B" phase and I was heading towards the "C" phase. When the first

10 shells fell, I didn't see them but judging by the detonation, they were

11 very near. It was in Alipasino Polje. I can't really say whether it was

12 in "A" or "C" phase but -- because I didn't see them. There were

13 explosions in front of me. In the parking place, there was children who

14 were on sledges, because it was quiet that morning. There was no shooting

15 that you could hear. When these two explosions occurred, they ran towards

16 the entrances to the buildings, and I ran after them. They were a little

17 in front of me, perhaps four or five metres in front of me. When that

18 third shell fell on my left side, three, four, or five metres from me, the

19 explosion threw me into the air. I fell down. I started crawling towards

20 building, the entrance of the building, which was about five or six metres

21 away from me. And I then felt, as I was crawling on the asphalt, I felt

22 that I had problems in my -- in part of my face. I didn't realise that I

23 had been wounded. But then I realised I was wounded. I lie down on my

24 side and headed towards the building, and the tenants found me there.

25 They came out to collect the wounded after the explosion of that shell.

Page 7666

1 Q. Can you say what happened to the children who were running towards

2 the apartment building?

3 A. After the explosion, when I was hit by the shrapnel, I heard

4 screams and groaning, and because they were in front of me so that part of

5 the shrapnel hit them. I didn't see this, but I heard screaming, I heard

6 groaning, et cetera.

7 Q. Where were you taken? Can you say where you taken by the

8 residents?

9 A. The residents from the building took me to -- they put me in a

10 car. I think it was a Golf. They put me and a boy in that car and then,

11 as it is all in the immediate vicinity, that Golf took us to the hospital

12 in Dobrinja, and from Dobrinja, we were transported to the Kosevo hospital

13 because they weren't able to help us there. So we were then taken to the

14 centre of the town to the Kosevo hospital.

15 Q. Were you admitted at the Kosevo hospital and were you discharged

16 that day?

17 A. I was admitted and there was surgical intervention. They operated

18 on me that day.

19 Q. Can you say about how long you were admitted in the hospital for,

20 approximately, if you can recall?

21 A. The first time when I was wounded, when they were saving my life,

22 I stayed about two months. The second time, I was in hospital for about a

23 month, and the third time, when they were transplanting my rib, I stayed

24 for about two and a half months.

25 Q. Could you tell us where on your body received injuries or serious

Page 7667

1 injuries, if any, please.

2 A. A piece of shrapnel hit part of my face, right here, and damaged

3 my whole jaw, and exited here right next to my shoulder.

4 Q. And could you tell us briefly, if you can, the nature of your

5 treatment?

6 A. Well, I don't want to repeat myself. They patched up this part.

7 I was clinically dead by the time I was transported to hospital. That

8 lasted for about an hour and a half. So the first thing they did was save

9 my life. And they sewed me up. I am not an expert on medicine. The

10 second time, they put some pins in to make my jaw straight, and the third

11 time they transplanted my -- part of my rib, and because my jaw had been

12 shattered. It was very difficult for me to put it briefly.

13 Q. I understand.

14 Could you tell us whether or not there are any effects on you

15 physically still from that injury?

16 A. Yes. I cannot chew so I cannot eat food normally. I can only

17 swallow. I have to eat soft food, mushy food. The nerves in my face have

18 been damaged so that I don't feel part of my face, and then when they were

19 stretching my skin to cover that place, my skin is very brittle now and it

20 is hard to stop any bleeding. I also have pains in my shoulder so I do

21 not feel normal at all.

22 Q. And psychologically, are there any psychological effects from this

23 shelling?

24 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, very severe consequences. I am constantly

25 under sedation and under control. I am being monitored. It is a bit

Page 7668

1 hard for me to talk about it all, believe me.

2 Q. I want to take you back to the day of the incident. I am sorry to

3 have to do so, but I just want us to go through one or two more aspects of

4 it in detail.

5 You were in "B" phase of Alipasino Polje, you said, when you heard

6 two shells explode in the community; is that correct?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. The first two shells that you heard explode, did you hear the

11 shell being fired?

12 A. No, not the first two. I didn't hear the first two being fired,

13 no.

14 Q. Did you hear anything after those two explosions?

15 A. Right after that I heard, as I was running, there was a kind of

16 eerie silence, and then I heard the whiz of the third shell being fired,

17 and immediately after that, it landed in my immediately vicinity.

18 Q. Could you say about how long after you heard the first two shells

19 explode did you hear the second one being fired -- sorry, did you hear the

20 third shell which injured you being fired?

21 A. Well, a minute and a half or two minutes, something like that.

22 Something like that.

23 Q. You said -- well, my translation says you said you heard the whiz

24 sound of a shell being fired. Could you describe the sound you heard a

25 little bit more, the sound of the third shell being fired?

Page 7669

1 A. Well, I will try, as far as my jaw will allow me. It is like

2 opening a bottle, but much louder. It's a kind of hiss.

3 Q. And can you say where the sound of this third shell being fired

4 came from?

5 A. Well, behind my back, from the part where Nedzarici is, there was

6 a military barracks there as far as we knew before the war. During the

7 war, we didn't even dare look in that direction. We were afraid to.

8 Q. This area of Nedzarici from which the sound of the fire of the

9 third shell came, under the control of which part of the conflict was it?

10 Was it the army of the Republika Srpska or the army of the Federation of

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. It was under control of the army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. You said you heard the sound of the firing coming from Nedzarici.

14 Was this the first time you ever heard the sound of a shell being fired?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I know it is difficult to speak, so if you could tell us briefly

17 about your experience in hearing shells being fired before that incident.

18 A. Well to put it briefly, the "C" and the "B" phases were in the

19 immediate vicinity of Nedzarici and there was daily shelling. It entered

20 our subconscious so that we got used to living with it and we learned to

21 distinguish the sounds of various kinds of projectiles being fired because

22 they also fired from tanks. We could see them from the windows of our

23 flats.

24 Q. You said it was a quiet day. What do you mean by that? Was there

25 any other shelling in the community that day or not?

Page 7670

1 A. Well, that morning it was like a miracle. It was a cold January

2 day and you couldn't hear a single bullet. It was so quiet, so peaceful,

3 you couldn't hear -- at least, I didn't hear any shelling or any bullets

4 being fired or anywhere around us.

5 Q. What was the weather like that day?

6 A. It was a cold, sunny day.

7 Q. And can you recall about what time of the day the shelling

8 occurred?

9 A. Well, a little after 11.00 in the morning.

10 Q. About how long after you heard the third shell being fired did the

11 explosion occur, that is the explosion which injured you and the children?

12 A. Well, around two minutes.

13 Q. May I rephrase that. Between -- can you give us, and I know it

14 would be an approximation, an approximate time period between the firing

15 of the third shell and the explosion of the third shell?

16 A. Well, not more than ten seconds. Well, it is very difficult to

17 say. But ten seconds at the most, not even that long.

18 Q. Thank you. And could you say, if you can, precisely, which street

19 you were on when you were injured or which apartment building you were

20 running towards?

21 A. I think it was called Klara Zetkin Street then. I am not sure of

22 the house number, but I think it was 4. I think it was entrance number

23 4. They changed the names of the streets after the war.

24 Q. And the children you saw, where were they playing?

25 A. They were playing outside the entrances 2 and 4. There was an

Page 7671

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Page 7672

1 area in front, a parking space, where they were sledging or sliding along,

2 skating in their shoes on the -- that part of the parking lot. And I was

3 walking towards them.

4 Q. Did you receive a letter of discharge when you left the hospital?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And would you be able to recognise a copy of it, if you saw it

7 again?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, could the witness be

10 shown P2183A.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Usher.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is a copy of the letter

14 of discharge.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. And do you see your name, your father's name, and your year of

17 birth on it?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I

21 apologise for interrupting the proceedings. But in the document that I

22 have before me, it seems that there is a handwritten part on the back. I

23 don't know if everyone has the same and I don't see -- I can't see that

24 this has been translated, this handwritten part. There is something that

25 might be a date. I am not sure. Could my colleague Stamp provide us with

Page 7673

1 some clarifications, perhaps. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: Indeed, I see some illegible scrawl of about five or

4 six characters on the back. I don't know if that is what my friend is

5 referring to. This is on my copy. I don't know if his copy has anything

6 else. I have the original from -- or as it ends here. If my friend would

7 have a look at it. The scrawl which I described is there but it is not a

8 part of the document that the Prosecution proposes to tender.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that we have a

10 solution. It is probably a copy of the signature which is on the back of

11 -- on the front of this document, although it seems to be a different

12 person who has signed. But, I think, Mr. President, this is the same

13 signature as the one that we can find -- as the one that we see on the

14 stamp.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I would suggest that it is the signature in mirror

16 and not -- it reads -- no. Yes, I see. It is not a mirror. I do see it.

17 I also see very slightly the name just above the signature, which appears

18 to be the same name as we find twice on the front side, "Piranic" and the

19 signature seems to be approximately the same. It has the appearance of

20 the same signature.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But what

22 is even more troubling is that we can read something, but very difficulty

23 -- with a lot of difficulty. We can read the name of the doctor

24 "Biranic" or "Piranic" which is marked on the back. But we can see on

25 the text below, I can make out the word date "dana," which means "day,"

Page 7674

1 but I don't know whether this is something that was translated or not.

2 Apparently not, because at the end of the document that we have here, on

3 the front, it has been translated as A1 under this number. But the lines

4 that we see on the front of the document, and this is not a mirror image

5 because we can see it quite clearly, these lines have not been

6 translated. Could Mr. Stamp tell us why.

7 MR. STAMP: Most probably, as is apparent, it is because that area

8 of the document is not legible.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That might create a lot of problem for

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. STAMP: As I indicated, the original is here.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Can we first see whether it is of any help if

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has a look at the original.

14 Mr. Usher, could you please.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Certain

18 things appear to be more legible on the original. There is a date to the

19 left which perhaps indicates -- which is perhaps February 1995. But I am

20 sure that with a good magnifying glass, a good translator should be in a

21 position to do miracles, and I have no doubt that he will do so very soon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have a look at the original, as well,

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Mr. Usher.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

Page 7675

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your permission, I can

3 see - and this is not the first time that this has happened - the document

4 that was given to us at the time by the Prosecution consists only of one

5 page, and as you can see, the other side has not been reproduced. So yet

6 again, regardless of the importance of the text, we are being provided

7 with elements which have only been partially reproduced. I don't think

8 that this is quite normal. Whatever the length of the text in question,

9 it has to be provided to the Defence. All the more so in that the

10 document coming from the Prosecution was clear, given that we could see

11 that there were two sides that were -- it was printed on both sides.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In general terms, I would say that documents

13 tendered at trial should be the same as the documents disclosed to the

14 Defence. There is a slight difference. So in general terms, I would

15 agree, but I don't think at this very moment, having inspected the

16 document and also the original -- at least the most original is in the

17 hands of the Prosecution, that there would be a reason at this moment not

18 to continue to examine the witness.

19 Mr. Stamp, you may proceed.

20 MR. STAMP: That, if the please you, Mr. President, Your Honours,

21 is the examination-in-chief of this witness. I have nothing further at

22 this point. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to cross-examination the

24 witness?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but we would like to

Page 7676

1 examine the question of translation for a few seconds. Because it seems

2 that the translation that we have just received is not the same as the one

3 that was given to us at the time. So we would like to verify this. That

4 will take a little time. I am very sorry, but it would take a few seconds

5 JUDGE ORIE: A few seconds is fine. Otherwise, I would suggest

6 that you start to cross-examine the witness and then perhaps during the

7 break that you finalise the inspection of the translation. If it is just

8 a matter of seconds, then, please proceed.

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are a few slight

11 differences, but we could start with the cross-examination. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. You have your medical document in front of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That document contains the address where you used to live; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, you lived at this address from 1991 to 1995?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7677

1 Q. And from a considerable time before that. So that is an area

2 that you have lived for a long time?

3 A. Yes, since 1981.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 On the medical document that you have provided, it says that on

6 the 17th of October, 1994, when you were admitted, you were employed in

7 [redacted] Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us, from 1991 to 1995, whether you were also employed

10 in that organisation?

11 A. No. We were all put on stand-by because of the wartime

12 conditions.

13 Q. So in that period 1992, 1993, 1994, you were not employed?

14 A. No. I was on stand-by like most of the employees there.

15 Q. In 1992, in April, May or June, did you receive a draft note?

16 A. No.

17 MR. STAMP: I --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

19 MR. STAMP: -- hesitate to hand. I am wondering if perhaps the

20 questions dealing with the employment of the accused at a particular

21 place might be sufficiently direct that it might disclose - I beg your

22 pardon - the questions of the witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Ms. Pilipovic, I think until now it is

24 just a matter of whether the witness was employed or at stand-by. So that

25 might be true perhaps for some more people in the area in these times.

Page 7678

1 But Ms. Pilipovic, would you please keep in mind very much that also the

2 identity of the witness is protected.

3 MR. STAMP: I am obliged, Mr. President. And to my learned

4 friend.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

6 endeavour to do so.

7 Q. Witness, you provided us with a document saying that you were

8 admitted to hospital on the 17th of October, 1994?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us whether you have documentation about your

11 admission to hospital dating from January 1994?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you confirm that you did not hand over these documents to the

14 Prosecution?

15 A. I can't remember. I gave them a lot of documents.

16 Q. So you are confirming that you provided documents from January

17 1994 also?

18 A. I am not confirming anything. I am just saying I am not sure.

19 Q. Do you have these documents?

20 A. Yes, I do, in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Can you confirm that on the 22nd of November, 1995, and the 23rd

22 of February, 1995, you made statements?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On the 23rd of February, 1995, did you make a statement in the

25 Public Security Station -- Centre of Novi Grad?

Page 7679

1 A. No, not in Novi Grad.

2 Q. Witness, the Defence is in possession of a statement which says on

3 the 23rd of February, 1995 in the Novi Grad Public Security Centre of

4 Sarajevo.

5 A. Well, if you have the document, it is possible. It was soon after

6 I was wounded so I cannot remember every detail. It is very hard for me.

7 But if it bears my signature, then I will accept it as an official

8 document.

9 Q. In November 1995, you also made the statement to investigators of

10 the Prosecution?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, in the statements you made in the centre of the Novi

13 Grad -- in the Novi Grad Public Security Centre, you described the time

14 and the event that happened in January; is that correct?

15 A. I repeat, whatever I said, I abide by it. But I cannot remember

16 all the details after all this time.

17 Q. Are you telling us that in 1995, when you made these statements,

18 your memory of these events was better than now?

19 A. No. I am just talking about my statement.

20 Q. And in relation to the event that occurred, can you tell us when

21 your memory was better, in 1995 or now?

22 A. It is the same because these events are engraved in one's memory

23 and they are very hard to forget. The intensity of remembering stays the

24 same.

25 Q. Witness, I put it to you that in the statement you made in the

Page 7680

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5

6

7

8

9

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11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

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20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 7681

1 Public Security Centre, you said that on the 21st of January, 1994, you

2 were on your way home.

3 A. It is possible, madam, that an error may have occurred. But

4 please try to understand that errors are possible. I allow for the fact

5 that I may have been mistaken.

6 Q. So you are saying that you allow for the fact that when making

7 your statement in 1995, when you said that this happened on the 21st of

8 January, you were mistaken?

9 A. Madam I had a difficulty speaking then. I may have been misheard

10 so there may have been an error. The way I speak now is relatively good

11 in relation to 1995.

12 Q. You signed that statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Witness, you made a statement on the 22nd of November, 1995, to

16 investigators of the Prosecution?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether when you made that statement to the

19 investigators of the Prosecution, you read the statement you had made on

20 the 23rd of February, 1995, in the Public Security station?

21 A. I am not sure.

22 Q. Witness, I put it to you this is your statement of the 22nd of

23 November, 1995. On the first page of that statement, the document number

24 is 00962556 in the original and you say: " I have read the statement I

25 made to the government, to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the

Page 7682

1 23rd of February, 1995, and I confirm that the contents are true to the

2 best of my recollection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What is your question, Ms. Pilipovic?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is that correct, sir? Is this correct, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You saw then that it said in the statement the 21st of January

8 when you read it?

9 A. I didn't pay attention, believe me.

10 Q. Witness, on the 23rd of February, 1995, you also said that the

11 date when this event occurred was the 21st of January, 1994.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think the point is perfectly clear.

13 If it is again about a date, that is perfectly clear that there is some

14 contradiction with the date.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, can you tell us what the distance is between phases "B"

18 and "C"?

19 A. 150 or 200 metres, something like that.

20 Q. Do you confirm that the address in your medical certificate is an

21 address in phase "C?"

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, can you confirm whether in phase "B", on that square,

24 there is a restaurant called "Stela"? I am talking about 1992, 1993,

25 1994.

Page 7683

1 A. I don't know, believe me. I never went into cafes.

2 Q. In phase "B", was there an establishment called "Stela"?

3 A. Believe me, I don't know.

4 Q. Do you know that during the conflict in Sarajevo, 1992, 1993,

5 1994, in the area of phase "B", there was the headquarters of the 102nd

6 Motorised Brigade?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In the period from January 1994, specifically on the 21st and

9 22nd of January, did you see soldiers in that part of town?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Can you confirm that in the area of phase "C" there were police

12 stations of the reserve police?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that in phase "B", in the part where you lived, the

15 HVO command was located?

16 A. No, and I didn't live in phase "B", I lived in phase "C".

17 A. If you lived in phase "C", do you know that there was a reserve

18 police station in phase "C"?

19 A. I just said, no.

20 Q. When you say "no," are you saying you don't know or that it

21 wasn't there?

22 A. I am saying it wasn't there.

23 Q. In 1992, 1993 and 1994, given that you told us that you know that

24 Nedzarici was under the control of the army of the Republika Srpska, can

25 you tell us where phase "A" and "B" and their surroundings, can you tell

Page 7684

1 us under whose control these areas were?

2 A. You are referring to "A" and "B" phase?

3 Q. I am talking about phases "B" and "C".

4 A. And C, well, they weren't under anyone's control. They were

5 under the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Can you tell us with regard to Nedzarici which was under the

7 control of the army of Republika Srpska, as you say, and with relation to

8 A, B and C phases, where were the lines of the BH army?

9 A. As I lived in "C" phase, it was probably behind Vojnicko Polje. I

10 don't know exactly because I am a civilian.

11 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993 and 1994, did you

12 have any work duties?

13 A. Well, I was waiting, as I told you. I was on a waiting list, as I

14 told -- as I said.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

16 like to show the witness document of the Prosecution 21572. It is a

17 photograph from the 21st of February, 1994.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it has been used before. Madam Registrar.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please locate the document.

21 MR. STAMP: May I just enquire of my learned friend, is it 2157

22 that she said? 2157, that is correct?

23 JUDGE ORIE: That is what she said.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 2172, it says here. Exhibit

25 P2172.

Page 7685

1 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, could you tell us whether in January, and you spoke about

4 the 22nd of January when my learned colleague put this question to you,

5 you said that the weather was good?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The days preceding that day, was there any precipitation, was

8 there any snow?

9 A. Perhaps ten days earlier, yes, there might have been snow because

10 there were parts where the children would skate.

11 Q. Could you have a look at photograph number 2, please.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the document has been admitted under

14 seal, but I do understand that if you just concentrate on the photographs

15 and nothing else, that they could be put on the ELMO, which makes it

16 easier to understand and follow the witness. Yes. If you have a

17 particular photograph. Number two, yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise this part?

20 A. Yes, the beginning of "C" phase, there is a square, Alipasino, "C"

21 phase.

22 Q. At the bottom of this photograph, can you see some houses in the

23 direction of this red car and in front of a car? Can you see that?

24 A. Buildings on the left-hand side.

25 Q. In the direction of the buildings, there are cars which can be

Page 7686

1 seen. At the bottom of the photograph, can you see a hill?

2 A. Yes, the Mojmilo hill.

3 Q. Do you know under whose control the Mojmilo hill was in 1992,

4 1993 and 1994?

5 A. Under the territory of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Do you know whether the BH army was on that hill?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Witness, you told us that you lived for a long time in that part

9 of town?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When my learned colleague asked you this question, you said that

12 shelling was frequent in that part of town?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Could you tell us in which period this occurred most frequently?

15 A. You mean the time period?

16 Q. 1992, 1993 and 1994, these are the years I am thinking of. So

17 before the shelling that you are speaking of now.

18 A. Well, almost every day.

19 Q. When you say, "every day," could you single out any particular

20 incident?

21 A. No, I couldn't. This was something that happened on a daily basis

22 in Sarajevo.

23 Q. When you say, "on a daily basis in Sarajevo," could you tell us

24 whether as a result of this shelling that you have been speaking about,

25 whether there were any victims?

Page 7687

1 A. Yes, there were.

2 Q. Could you perhaps tell us -- could you mention the name of someone

3 you know who was a victim of shelling in the part in which you lived?

4 A. Someone I knew died.

5 Q. Could you tell us when this happened?

6 A. In 1993.

7 Q. Could you tell us in which month, perhaps?

8 A. I think it was in May.

9 Q. Witness, you have spoken to us today about the fact that you

10 heard the sound of the third shell; you heard the third shell being

11 fired?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. You said that you also heard that shell exploding?

14 A. Yes, on my left-hand side, behind my back.

15 Q. Do you distinguish between the firing of a shell and the explosion

16 of a shell?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Could you tell us, could you describe what the sound is when a

19 shell is being fired?

20 A. I tried to explain this to the Prosecutor. Well, it is like the

21 sound made when you open a bottle, you know, it is something like that.

22 But it is a lot louder; the sound is a lot louder.

23 Q. Are you telling us that on the basis of the shell being fired, you

24 determine which direction the shell had come from?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7688

1 Q. When you heard, as you said, the sound of the shell being fired,

2 are you quite sure that it was from the direction of Nedzarici or was this

3 just an assumption?

4 A. Yes, I am sure.

5 Q. Did you hear the sound of the first two shells being fired, the

6 first two shells you mentioned?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Did you hear where those two shells exploded?

9 A. I heard that explosion to my left-hand side, but I couldn't say

10 where exactly. I couldn't pinpoint the location. There were buildings

11 there.

12 Q. Could you tell us at what distance with regard to the -- from what

13 distance with regard to the place where you were that you heard these

14 shells being fired?

15 A. I don't know. As the crow flies, perhaps 100, 150 metres. It is

16 very difficult to determine this precisely.

17 Q. After this incident occurred, the one you have been speaking about

18 and in which you were wounded, up until the 23rd of February, 1994, did

19 you speak to anyone about that incident? When I say, "to anyone," did you

20 make a statement to the competent authorities? Did you report this

21 incident to those in authority?

22 A. No, just the statement that I made. I didn't speak to anyone else

23 about the incident. Not the incident, but the massacre.

24 Q. You said that you were taken to the Dobrinja hospital?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7689

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

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23

24

25

Page 7690

1 Q. Could you tell us how long you stayed in the Dobrinja hospital?

2 A. They -- they sent us to the Kosevo hospital.

3 Q. So you are telling us that in the Dobrinja hospital, you weren't

4 provided with any sort of medical treatment?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Witness, in your statement of the 23rd of February, 1995, you said

7 that in Dobrinja, in the Dobrinja hospital, "I was provided with

8 first aid."

9 A. Well, when I say "first aid," that includes an examination, a sort

10 of visual examination to determine whether it is possible to treat him

11 there or not. It depends on how serious the injuries are.

12 Q. So you are now telling us you were examined there.

13 A. Yes, I was visually examined. When they saw my jaw and my face,

14 well, it was natural for them to send me to the place where they should

15 have sent me.

16 Q. When you were taken to the surgery department, is that part of the

17 Kosevo hospital?

18 A. Yes. Yes, part of the UMC, the university medical centre, and the

19 facial surgery department.

20 Q. Could you tell us how long you stayed in the Kosevo hospital?

21 A. The first time, it was a month and-a-half or so, and the second

22 time about two, two and-a-half months, maybe three. Something like that.

23 Well, there are medical records about this in any case.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it is

25 time for a break now.

Page 7691

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you need some more time?

2 You have --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

4 consult my colleague with regard to the documents which he examined while

5 I was conducting the cross-examination. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Comparing the time you have taken until now, it is

7 just a few minutes less than the Prosecutor.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, wouldn't it be better that you now

13 resume your cross-examination and that we deal with the admission of

14 evidence of the documents after we finish the examination of this

15 witness. This also means that if there were any objections against newly

16 provided document P1675.2, that we wait just for ten minutes or quarter

17 of an hour to deal with that and first resume the cross-examination of the

18 witness.

19 Yes, then please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, in 1992, were you a member of the Territorial Defence?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Witness, you told us that you possess documentation on the date

24 of your admission to the Kosevo hospital?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7692

1 Q. Can you tell me what the date of admission is on the document

2 that you have?

3 A. The 22nd of January, 1994.

4 Q. Did you hand this document over to representatives of the

5 Prosecution when they talked to you?

6 A. I am not sure.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

8 further questions. My co-counsel wishes to put a few questions relating

9 to documents.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not going

12 to ask any questions, but perhaps we could just wait. If Mr. Stamp wants

13 to complete his list of questions and then, after, we will present these

14 questions with regard to the admissibility of these documents in question,

15 with regard to whether or not they should be admitted.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is not questions but argument on the

17 admissibility of the document.

18 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

19 MR. STAMP: I have no re-examination of this witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. AI, I have one question to you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ORIE: You might have noticed that when you said that you

23 recognised the document that was shown to you in relation to your

24 treatment, you may have noticed that there was some exchange of views as

25 to the back side of that document where we could, although not easily,

Page 7693

1 discover a few things.

2 Do you know or do you remember what is on the -- if there is

3 anything on the back side of the document and what is on the back side of

4 the document?

5 A. On the front side of the document, it says that I was to report

6 for a check-up in 15 days. On the back of the letter of discharge, it

7 says: "situation unchanged, check-up in 15 days." And then again it

8 says: "situation unchanged, condition unchanged, report back in a month."

9 I think there are two or three of these entries when I went to check-ups

10 with Dr. Piranic. And he would say, "Condition unchanged, next check-up

11 in a fortnight." "Condition unchanged, next check-up in a month." That

12 is what was on the back of this letter of discharge.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answer.

14 Mr. AI, you have answered all the question by the parties for the

15 Prosecution, by the Defence, and also by the Bench. It is important for

16 us to hear the answers from those who have been present at the relevant

17 times and at the relevant places because it will assist us in performing

18 our task. Thank you very much for coming and assisting the Tribunal by

19 your presence and by answering these questions.

20 I know it is quite a long trip from Sarajevo to The Hague. I hope

21 you have a safe trip home again.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, then, would you please escort Mr. AI out

24 of the courtroom.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 7694

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then it might be the wisest thing to do is first to

2 deal with the document tendered in respect of Mr. AI and then go back in

3 the past and see what is left from last Friday and even before.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3682, pseudonym sheet under seal.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It is admitted.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2183A, discharge -- form letter of

7 discharge in B/C/S. P2183A.1, English translation.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for interrupting you, Madam

9 Registrar. That is always unwise to do, as I know by now. No, no, no,

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please, I take it that you want to raise objections

11 against the admittance -- the admissibility of 2183.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

13 am verifying the transcript. I wouldn't want us to have the same problem

14 with numbers that we had on Thursday, because I can see that on several

15 occasions, document 2183 was referred to in the transcript of the hearing

16 -- it is correct now, but just a minute ago, it was 283. This error

17 seems to have been corrected now, but I didn't want us to have the same

18 difficulties. Yes. However that may be, the reason for which we are

19 raising an objection to the tendering of this document is that this

20 document wasn't provided to us in its entirety. The entire document

21 wasn't provided to us, and this is not the first time this has happened.

22 And I have to say that the Defence is quite surprised to come to the

23 conclusion that even on one of these documents -- although on one of these

24 documents we can perfectly well see that the front of the document has

25 writing on it and contains indications.

Page 7695

1 Well, the Defence is surprised to see that it is only part of the

2 document which was provided to it. I am not talking of what has happened

3 today, of course, because we have a copy which is more or less complete.

4 I am referring to documents that we had for this witness and which were

5 provided to us earlier on.

6 Mr. President, it is not just that we were only provided with a

7 partial document, but in addition, at the time we only received a very

8 rudimentary translation, although the Latin was quite elegant. I can see

9 that in the translation that we were provided with, many things were

10 missing. For example, this is just one example, these Latin words. If we

11 have a look at the English translation which we were given today,

12 Mr. President, I can see that yet again certain things have not been

13 translated. And it would suffice to know, as we were reminded by the

14 Trial Chamber, we can see here that we have some numbers which go from 1

15 to 4 and then pass on to 6 and 7, and this means that, yet again, one or

16 two of the cases at the bottom of the document was not translated.

17 You will also see that in the part which mentions the number of

18 days spent in the hospital, this part has not been translated and there is

19 another part of the document, at the top of this one, here you can read

20 "Odjeljenje-odsjek," and these words have not been translated either. It

21 seems that this has not been translated in the translation that we have

22 just receive from the Prosecution. And when reading through this document

23 again, I can see that a Serbian expression which is on the right below the

24 part, the printed part, and which says "Sifra," this has been translated

25 differently. The English translation is different. I am saying that this

Page 7696

1 is apparently so because I am examining this right now. So to be brief,

2 on the one hand, the document has not been provided, the original document

3 has not been provided, and on the other hand, part of the text has not

4 been translated, and thirdly, with regard to what has been presented to us

5 as a translation, we can see that yet again certain things that are

6 contained in the document have quite simply not been translated, whereas

7 it is quite obvious -- well, we don't have the translation of what was not

8 reproduced.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you -- I think you assisted the Chamber

10 greatly by pointing at those parts where it seems that the pre-printed

11 text in boxes is not translated, such as the number of days and the --

12 there were some other entries, for example, the fifth entry between

13 "examined" and the "seised." I do understand that both the accused and

14 the Defence team all read and understand B/C/S. Could you please tell the

15 Chamber in what way the incorrect translation is hindering you in your

16 Defence? So I am not talking about the authenticity, but just about the

17 translation.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, willingly, Mr.

19 President, because, as I said, the Defence is not just a two-headed body

20 and there are people who -- and this is what I could call my support base,

21 there are some people who would like to clarify certain things. This is

22 necessary. And these people only work on the basis of the translations

23 that they are provided with since, contrary to Mr. Galic, they don't speak

24 Serbian. And I rely on them because I have to rely on someone. And if we

25 are provided with incorrect translations, then obviously what results from

Page 7697

1 these translations will be inexact or, at least, this could happen.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Are there members belonging to the Defence team who

3 do not understand B/C/S or do not read B/C/S, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in Geneva,

5 there are people who --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, there aren't.

8 JUDGE ORIE: My question just related to those who were official

9 members of the Defence team. But I do understand that some people who

10 support you might have difficulties when they rely just on the translation

11 and cannot read the original. Is there anything else you would like to

12 add?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. To reply to your

14 question, Mr. President, whatever the knowledge of languages that my

15 colleagues have, that my colleague has and that General Galic has, it is

16 obvious that the fact that they do know these languages doesn't affect

17 the fact that when certain pages are not translated, which is the case

18 with this document, in that case, we can't know what there is, what it

19 means, and as a result, it is not possible to organise a defence.

20 There is nothing else, apart from the fact, Mr. President, that on

21 page 26 of the transcript, of the French transcript, it would be better to

22 read "investigator," rather than "investors of the Prosecution."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, here is a piece of yellow paper

24 which you can use to bring those smaller details to the attention of those

25 who are preparing the transcript, as I told you before.

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Page 7702

1 an opportunity, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, or Ms. Pilipovic, to check the

2 documents just provided to you? 1675.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, not yet.

4 I was concentrating on other things. I will do so now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the next break.

6 May I remind the Prosecutor's Office that when this document was

7 discussed before, that they have decided not to tender the documents P1675

8 and P1675.1 at that time due to the fact that there was no full

9 translation. So I take it now that you do tender all three of them.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it would make more sense to tender

11 only .2, that is the fresh translation, but to give it that separate

12 number so as to distinguish it from the earlier translation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So what it means is the Prosecution now tenders P1675

14 and 1675.2.

15 Then we still have to deal with two other documents. The first

16 document is -- let me just have a look. That is the meeting which is

17 footnote, I think it was 83, in the report of Mr. Donia. The document as

18 being a part of the footnote materials of the report of Mr. Donia is

19 admitted into evidence. We do not take separate decisions on several

20 parts. It has been used by Dr. Donia to prepare his report. Admitting it

21 into evidence allows the Chamber to check carefully whether the

22 conclusions drawn, from whatever documents supporting the expert report,

23 can be followed or not be followed. Apart from that, there has been

24 extensive cross-examination specifically on this document and that is

25 another reason why we would -- why we admit the documents into evidence.

Page 7703

1 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the last document is D101. I hardly dare

2 to ask you about completeness of documents, but from the translation

3 I take it that you have not tendered the whole article because the

4 translation ends with a -- with a question without an answer. If I

5 compare it with the original language, I also see that -- at least it

6 appears to me that it is also a question with which the article ends.

7 Is it the whole article or part of it?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must admit

9 that it is a matter for which I was absent, so Ms. Pilipovic will be in a

10 position to reply to you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is just

13 part of the document, part of the interview.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And that was your intention, to just tender part of

15 the document?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we decide that the document is admitted into

18 evidence. At the same time, we see that it's, I would say, double

19 hearsay, and it might be about a different date. But at least it has the

20 probative value that someone says that someone else told him that on a

21 different day, but quite close to the day the expert report deals with,

22 there had been shooting at a crowd from a unit or persons related to Juka

23 Prazina. So, as you may have noticed, in this Chamber and the Tribunal

24 rather liberal rules of admission of evidence do exist. That is because

25 we are not in a jury trial here and that the Chamber will assess what

Page 7704

1 exactly the probative value of the evidence will be at the end of the

2 trial.

3 Having dealt with the documents --

4 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President? The next witness

5 will be taken again by Mr. Stamp. Thank you.

6 MR. STAMP: I advise that the Prosecution is unable to bring forth

7 the next witness today. As I mentioned in my last letter, we had been

8 liberal perhaps in estimating the time Witness AI would take and we had

9 also decided, having regard to his difficulty in speaking for long periods

10 of time, to try to confine his testimony only to precise issues and not

11 take him into general matters. And it has taken a much shorter time than

12 we expected. He had been set down for two hours, two hours in chief and

13 cross-examination, and with the time that we would have expected to be

14 taken with ancillary applications, he would have taken all of today. That

15 was indicated in our last letter. He has been much shorter and we are not

16 in a position to call any other witnesses today.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am

19 somewhat surprised because, for the 22nd of April, we were told there

20 would be a witness for two hours and that was very short, and everyone is

21 happy about that. But tomorrow, apparently, we won't have anyone, if I

22 can see the programme that the Prosecution provided us. But for the 24th

23 and 25th, if I can see this correctly, we will just have one witness and

24 he has been given one hour. And I would comply with this, but perhaps we

25 should perhaps be told how this shall develop because, two days for one

Page 7705

1 hour for one witness, the figures don't add up. What I can see here,

2 given that there is nothing, I don't know if we are working tomorrow or

3 not but --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are not working tomorrow. That

5 is not because of the Prosecution but because of the Bench. What I see is

6 for the 24th until the 26th of April, that is three days, three witnesses.

7 What is the use of telling us that it is one hour for two days if you see

8 that the next witness is two hours for one of those two days as well and

9 one of those days filled with the last witness. So I have three witnesses

10 for three days, which is the average. But I would, of course, be glad if

11 the average could even be improved without any loss of quality.

12 Mr. Stamp, I take it that not even later today -- if you say not

13 today, that means the witness will not arrive. Okay.

14 MR. STAMP: And having regard to what you just expressed,

15 Mr. President, the witnesses for the rest of the week have been -- the

16 number of them is deliberately conservative. In fact, there were five

17 other witnesses scheduled, but having regard to difficulties in travelling

18 of one of those witnesses, we had to remove two of them. And we did not

19 want to take a risk that there would be any overlap between civilian

20 witnesses coming from Sarajevo for the next succeeding week which we will

21 not sit.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. STAMP: It may well be that we will have a shortened week. I

24 don't know if it is wise to try to get another witness and take the risk

25 of having that witness wait here.

Page 7706

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is always very difficult to strike a fair

2 balance between what is involved in losing a couple of hours in court and,

3 at the same time, what it involves if a witness has to wait for one or two

4 days and has to arrive earlier and then to wait. So I would say until now

5 this Chamber, although it has been announced a few times that we might run

6 out of witnesses, this is actually the first time we really do, and I must

7 say that after three months of trial, that is not a bad performance. I

8 think we are, in general, using our time good. We hardly lose any hours

9 on witnesses who are not available.

10 So I would continue to rely on the -- on what the Prosecution has

11 done until now. Of course, it is difficult for us if you take only 37

12 minutes, like you did today, where you indicated two hours, of course, for

13 us, it is very difficult to foresee where your initial estimate might not

14 be finally valid any more. So I leave it up to you and I -- the Chamber

15 trusts that in a similar way as you did before, you are taking a -- taking

16 into consideration all the elements, that means waiting of witnesses,

17 efficient use of time in court, et cetera. So I will try to leave it to

18 that.

19 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Since we find ourselves with some additional time

22 today, I would like to take this opportunity to raise a matter in closed

23 session in relation to the timetable of the trial.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We could do it right away, I think. So could we

25 please turn into closed session.

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18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 11.55, p.m.,to be reconvened on Wednesday,

20 the 24th day of April, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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