Page 7993
1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed, Mr. Ierace, that you would like to
10 address the Chamber this morning, but before giving you the opportunity to
11 do so, I would like to come back to an issue raised yesterday by Mr.
12 Stamp, that is, about the 92 bis (C) statements. The Chamber has decided
13 that these statements can be submitted to the Chamber now. The main
14 reason for not waiting is that then we have the statement available to the
15 Chamber and that, if necessary, the Defence could examine witnesses also
16 in respect of the statement, and if the Appeals Chamber would decide
17 otherwise about the admissibility, of course, this Chamber will have to
18 draw the consequences of that. But it is mainly in order not to bother
19 the Defence, not to obstruct the Defence in paying proper attention to
20 these statements while other witnesses are examined.
21 Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation to that issue that
23 you raised, if you wish, we could hand copies of those two statements to
24 the Registrar now.
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the decision of the Chamber was
Page 7994
1 that one of the statements was only partially admitted into evidence. You
2 only applied for a partial --
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- admission of these documents.
5 MR. IERACE: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that what you are going to give to the
7 Registrar is limited to the part you asked to submit to the Court.
8 MR. IERACE: Excuse me for a moment, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will give you an opportunity. Yes, Mr.
12 Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in their present form, they are the
14 entire statement. If you wish, we could redact the statement
15 appropriately so that it contains only the part upon which we rely.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think that that would be better, but let me first
17 -- I saw that Mr. Piletta-Zanin was on his feet already twice, so give
18 him an opportunity to respond.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 This is just to clarify things a little in relation to the statement,
21 rather, in relation to 92 bis. Now, the Defence is wondering when is it
22 that these documents should be submitted directly or indirectly to the
23 witnesses. I do understand the intention of your Chamber to protect the
24 Defence's rights, but how could we, if there was a reference to these
25 statements in any way at the time of hearing of the next witness, if the
Page 7995
1 Appeals Chamber has to decide in favour of that. Now, this is a technical
2 question, but it will be propitious to examine it now because if the
3 witness should be -- should know about these statements in relation to 92
4 bis and later the Chamber hypothetically should give right to the Defence,
5 that would imply that a large part of the testimony - perhaps even all of
6 the testimony - of the witness who knew about this report could be put
7 into question, and so this would be a problem that would come by
8 consequence, and this is what the Defence would like to tell your Chamber
9 at this point.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... your problem, or
11 at least I do understand what you think will be our problem as well. If
12 it is not admitted at this moment, it would be more difficult for the
13 Chamber to understand part of the testimony that might be related to the
14 statements. If during the examination of witnesses still to be examined
15 attention will be paid to the whole or part of these written statements by
16 deceased witnesses, it certainly will lose part, or perhaps even all, of
17 its relevance if finally this Chamber would have to disregard the written
18 statements by the deceased witnesses.
19 I do see the problem, but if we would decide otherwise and say,
20 well, of course, we have read the statements since we had to decide on
21 whether to admit them or not, so we have knowledge of the content of the
22 statement, and it is up to this Chamber finally to take these statements
23 into consideration or to disregard them, but at this very moment, the
24 Chamber takes the view that it is better to have them on the table when
25 these witnesses will be examined and, finally, when we know the decision
Page 7996
1 of the Appeals Chamber, that we know whether we can take them into
2 consideration and, therefore, also take into consideration those parts of
3 future testimony which relates to that or, at least, to assess the
4 probative value of it. We think this is a better way of dealing with it,
5 and perhaps hearing the testimony of witnesses and not having in front of
6 us the testimony -- the written statements to which this testimony is
7 related.
8 So it is a practical solution. I think part of the problem is
9 created by the mixed system we are using in this court, where usually the
10 admission of evidence would mean that it becomes known to what in most
11 common law systems would be the jury, or would not become known to the
12 jury. But since this Chamber had to decide itself on the admissibility of
13 these written statements, so we have read them, I think it is a better
14 solution to have them in front of us and to have them available to us
15 while hearing the testimony of witnesses still to come and, at a later
16 stage, we will finally have to decide on whether we have to disregard them
17 or whether they may have any probative value and this, of course, is also
18 true for the testimony still to come.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the first matter I wish to raise
22 concerns today's testimony table. Although the estimates which we have
23 provided of the length of examination-in-chief in relation to the two next
24 witnesses, Goran Todorovic and Witness J, should take us to the conclusion
25 of today's sitting, I anticipate that because of our efficient approach,
Page 7997
1 we may indeed, finish them earlier. The third witness, Mr. Magnusson, has
2 arrived this morning -- was due to arrive this morning following a long
3 international flight, and I anticipate he will not be ready to enter the
4 witness box until tomorrow morning. Therefore, it may be that the
5 evidence today finishes before the allocated time simply because we were
6 able to keep the witnesses well within the estimates we have given.
7 Mr. President, another matter I wish to raise concerns the issue
8 of the timetable for the presentation of the Prosecution's case, that is,
9 the balance of the case. I indicated that, by early this week, I would
10 present to you a revised timetable and would make submissions in relation
11 to what time, any time extension that we needed, should we need any
12 extension. Given the order of the Trial Chamber some weeks ago and a
13 communication that we received from the senior counsel in chambers
14 approximately a week ago, it seems clear to us that we are required at
15 this stage to finish the case by the 5th of July. That presents some
16 difficulties to the Prosecution, but we are doing our best to contain the
17 remainder of the case within that time period.
18 As I indicated to the Trial Chamber, I think it was last week, we
19 have identified some 40 witnesses that we are prepared to drop from the
20 Prosecution list. Even so, the remaining number at our present rate of
21 evidence - and I factor into that time taken by the Defence, as well as
22 the Prosecution - means that we could not finish within the proposed
23 conclusion date of the 5th of July.
24 Mr. President, that situation has caused us to think creatively as
25 to how we might manage to nevertheless remain within that closing date. I
Page 7998
1 have a proposal which I will develop tomorrow morning, but I think it wise
2 to alert the Trial Chamber to it today so that you have the opportunity to
3 think about it in advance, if you so wish.
4 Firstly, might I make these observations about the remaining
5 witnesses generally because there are some characteristics which
6 distinguish them from the majority of witnesses we have so far called. It
7 could fairly be said that the average time that each of the remaining
8 witnesses would take, if we were to approach their examination-in-chief in
9 the same fashion as the witnesses we have already called, would be far in
10 excess of the average time of witnesses so far. That is because of the
11 nature of their evidence. We have a number of expert witnesses and the
12 remainder, by and large, are what one might call international witnesses,
13 that is, individuals who were present during the indictment period in and
14 around Sarajevo, but who came from outside that territory, people such as
15 United Nations military officers and UNPROFOR officers and United Nations
16 civil affairs officers. So there is a difficulty that we have.
17 I have a proposal which is that, where possible, with these
18 witnesses when examined in chief, I or whichever counsel takes them for
19 the Prosecution team elicits from them in leading form whether they are in
20 a position to give evidence on certain topics, to which I anticipate the
21 answer will be "yes," and then, rather than take the witness further into
22 those topics, to ask no more questions on those topics, but instead take
23 them to other material. The topics which would be skimmed over in that
24 fashion would be topics which have not been the subject of
25 cross-examination previously when similar evidence has been given by other
Page 7999
1 witnesses. When I say it has not been the subject of cross-examination, I
2 specifically mean Rule 90, and I rely upon the interim judgment that you
3 have provided to the Defence, that is, that the Defence is required to
4 contradict the witness, witness's evidence, where it is inconsistent with
5 the Defence case.
6 Therefore, the remaining area which the witness would be invited
7 to expand upon would be the essence of their evidence which the
8 Prosecution cannot do without. Some witnesses would still take
9 considerable time in the witness box when examined in chief, perhaps an
10 hour, two hours, perhaps three, but by the same token, a large
11 number of witnesses may be dealt with well within an hour, perhaps within
12 half an hour.
13 If this is to work, then, it will be because the Defence is
14 similarly restricted in cross-examination. There have been many occasions
15 over the last few weeks and months when cross-examination has taken more
16 time than examination-in-chief and, more particularly, where there have
17 been repeated objections made in particular by the Defence, which has had
18 the effect of impacting adversely on the Prosecution timetable. I do not
19 suggest for a minute that it is inappropriate per se for the Defence to
20 make objections or, on occasion, for the Defence to cross-examine longer
21 than the time taken in chief. We accept, of course, that that is the
22 approach taken by this Trial Chamber, that there be time limits on both
23 parties, and we do our best to work within that.
24 I simply make this observation at this stage: That my proposal
25 will only work if the Defence is restricted in its cross-examination in
Page 8000
1 the same way as the Prosecution is restricted in its examination-in-chief
2 in this delicate remainder of the Prosecution case.
3 Mr. President, more specifically in relation to the witness list,
4 it is taking considerable time, as perhaps you might expect, as we juggle
5 which witnesses we can drop and those that we really must call to some
6 extent. I will have a final list, with one exception, tomorrow morning.
7 That list will have a number of deletions from the remainder of the
8 witness list. It will have one or two additions, for reasons which I will
9 explain, and by the end of the week, there may be, and I stress "may be"
10 an addition. And if that is the case -- a further addition, and if that
11 is the case, I will explain why at the relevant time that is done, later
12 in the week rather than tomorrow.
13 Mr. President, I hasten to add that I understand that you were
14 expecting me to give you that list today, and that was my intention until
15 it became apparent yesterday afternoon that there is some further work
16 required, and I would be very grateful if I could have the indulgence of
17 the Bench until tomorrow morning when I present that list. I propose to
18 do so before I call Mr. Magnusson and I have in mind, if it is convenient
19 to the Trial Chamber, that the giving of his evidence be something of a
20 test of this approach. He's a UN civil affairs officer who has a
21 statement -- who has made a statement of many pages, much of which is
22 relevant, but in taking him through his statement, I propose to adopt the
23 approach that I have outlined, and perhaps that would be of assistance
24 both to the Defence and to the Trial Chamber in allowing us to test how
25 well it works or doesn't work. Because if it doesn't work, then the
Page 8001
1 sooner we realise that, the better, and we can look at what other
2 alternatives there may be.
3 One of the possibilities, in a general sense, is to apply yet
4 again Rule 92 bis, and I should say in passing that the steps taken by the
5 Prosecution assume that the witnesses we have so far sought to deal with
6 by 92 bis, in fact, are successfully tendered. One of the problems with
7 92 bis is -- and applying it to the remainder of the witnesses, is that
8 many of those witnesses give evidence of conversations, either with the
9 accused or with senior subordinates or with, in some cases, individuals
10 who were further up the command, the chain of command and, therefore, 92
11 bis would not seem to be appropriate.
12 Mr. President, I hope that assists. If there are any questions
13 you wish to ask me, of course I am happy to respond and I would be
14 grateful if I could have that further indulgence of 24 hours. Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you have time until tomorrow. Did you
17 also discuss the practical approach you proposed with the Defence?
18 Wouldn't it be wise to see whether you could agree on a way of proceeding
19 which would -- which would be approved as well by the Defence? If not, of
20 course, we will have to take decisions on that, but as you know, this
21 Chamber always prefers to have the parties on the same line, and so if
22 there would be an opportunity to discuss it - and I am aware that you are
23 running out of time since you have to prepare for tomorrow - but perhaps
24 it might be helpful to discuss the matter with Defence counsel as well.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will do that. Perhaps if it is
Page 8002
1 convenient to my friends, I could meet them at the next break and we could
2 have a preliminary discussion then.
3 There is one other matter I should alert the Trial Chamber to
4 which is relevant to this proposed manner of proceeding, and that is the
5 observation that all of these witnesses, almost without exception I should
6 say, are in -- because they are international witnesses, come from the
7 four corners of the earth. If we are to commit ourselves to this
8 approach, then it means we will have to have sometimes two or even three
9 witnesses on standby, ready to come into the Trial Chamber to give their
10 evidence as soon as the others finish. If the approach founders, then it
11 will be organisationally disastrous to have so many witnesses waiting
12 around.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, invisible for the transcript, I saw you nodding
16 a firm "no," but could you please explain what was behind your nodding.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The truth, Mr. President. The
18 truth was behind this gesture of mine, but I would like to be more
19 precise in reminding the Prosecution that we have had this facility called
20 the telephone for some time now and, therefore, we could have discussed
21 this earlier, but I have never received a telephone call from anyone and I
22 am only finding this out this morning. So this is what I would like to
23 remind them.
24 The situation as it stands now, the Defence cannot accept what has
25 been proposed. Why is that? Because what we are being proposed is to
Page 8003
1 reduce the rights of the Defence in an unacceptable way, in one way. That
2 would be applicable to witnesses that are extremely important in
3 authorizing the Prosecution to lead the interview, that is, the testimony,
4 the witness hearing as they see fit. Now, in this Tribunal, any other
5 Trial Chambers, I should say in this Tribunal, I think we should follow
6 the Rules that have been applicable so far. Now, the hearing of a witness
7 should be conducted in a certain way. A question should be asked in a
8 certain way, and I think that you have noticed that sometimes Defence will
9 accept certain leading questions and that the Defence is not objecting to
10 them.
11 Now, we are doing this, we are not objecting, in order to gain
12 time. We are only objecting when we see that it is absolutely necessary,
13 and often it does seem necessary. Now, if the Prosecution doesn't have
14 enough time to continue this hearing of witnesses by this deadline, now
15 this is not up to the Defence to take the consequences of that. The
16 Defence is not here to make up for the faults of the Prosecution. It is
17 up to the Prosecution to be perhaps more concise in the questioning, to
18 have fewer objections, to cause fewer objections, or to do something to
19 use any of the rights that they have left, and they don't have many left.
20 Now, certain essential elements like those that come from other
21 cases or from files that have been given to them very late or something
22 like that. Now, I believe this is a principal position of the Defence
23 which is saying, "no," and no to this manner of hearing Mr. Magnusson or
24 any other witnesses.
25 Now, we can discuss these thing with Mr. Ierace, if he wants to.
Page 8004
1 We can maybe discuss some other means of accelerating this procedure. I
2 believe that there must be some other means of accelerating the procedure.
3 We saw yesterday some of the questions were asked and I did not object,
4 for instance, the photograph that we looked at and I didn't object in
5 questions in relation to photograph because that would have been a waste
6 of time. So I think there are other ways of accelerating the procedure.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to make two observations. At that time,
8 first of all, things are almost never as simple as they look at
9 first sight. So if, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are telling us that it is not
10 the Defence who should solve the problem of the Prosecution, you are
11 certainly right. At the same time, we all know that we grant now and
12 then more time to the Defence in cross-examining witnesses than the time
13 taken by the Prosecution. So, therefore, the cause of the existing
14 problem could not be put single on one of the parties. It is an
15 interaction of what happens in this courtroom that is related to efficient
16 use of time now and then. It is related to the content of the testimony
17 which would ask for other solutions than keeping very strictly to the time
18 used by the examining party. That is one observation. So the problem is
19 not just as simple that as if the Defence is now asked to solve the
20 problems of the Prosecution.
21 The second observation I would like to make is that if I
22 understood you well, you are quite willing to discuss in a creative way
23 the solution of the existing problems with the Prosecution. I take it
24 that you think that there are other ways of solving or, at least, other
25 ways of working more efficiently. With great expectations, the Chamber
Page 8005
1 awaits the outcome of your discussions during this stage.
2 It was just a preliminary matter raised, not a final discussion on
3 how to proceed, so I think we are informed now by both parties about an
4 initial approach of how to proceed, and I would like to leave it to that
5 for this very moment.
6 Is there any other issue to be raised?
7 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. Might I be excused?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Then since Mr. Stamp is the only one left, I take it that he will
10 examine the next witness.
11 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is just to say, since the
13 witness is about to come, I would just like to use this break that the
14 French booth translated "5th of July" as "5th of June," so I would just
15 like to make sure that it is correct. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would take another month from the
17 Prosecution's case and that would not be applauded by the Prosecution.
18 We are waiting for the next witness. It will be Mr. Todorovic?
19 MR. STAMP: Mr. Todorovic. He is on his way.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Todorovic, can you hear me in a language you
22 understand?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this Court, the Rules
25 require you to make a solemn declaration, and the text of this declaration
Page 8006
1 will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make
2 that declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: GORAN TODOROVIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr.
8 Todorovic. You will first be examined by counsel of the Prosecution.
9 Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
12 Q. For the record, could you please state your name.
13 A. My name is Goran Todorovic.
14 Q. What is your date of birth, Mr. Todorovic?
15 A. 10th of January, 1982.
16 Q. And where do you live, in which city do you live?
17 A. Sarajevo.
18 Q. And how long have you lived there?
19 A. My entire life.
20 Q. In January of 1994, in which part of Sarajevo did you live?
21 A. I lived in the municipality Novi Grad, and the settlement was
22 called Alipasino Polje.
23 Q. What was your address then?
24 A. Klara Zetkin number 6. Today it is called Bosanska Street number
25 6.
Page 8007
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe the
3 witness said he lived nearby something called the phase-C, and I see
4 that --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Basically, the French and the
7 English translation interpretation did not correspond. Could you please
8 repeat the question to the witness so that we can clear up this
9 conclusion?
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. You live at Klara Zetkin number 6, today, Bosanska Street number
12 6, is that what you said?
13 A. I don't think I understood your question, but at any rate, the
14 street is currently called Bosanska Street number 6, and previously it was
15 called Klara Zetkin Street number 6, so the house number remains same, but
16 the street has changed.
17 Q. Now, Alipasino Polje was divided into different phases. Which
18 phase is that address at?
19 A. Phase-C.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. Now, do you remember the 22nd of January 1994?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I am going to ask you to describe for the Court what, if anything,
25 happened to you that day. Did you leave your home that day?
Page 8008
1 A. I am not quite sure I understood your question.
2 Q. You lived in an apartment at Klara Zetkin number 6; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. With whom did you live?
6 A. I lived with my father, mother and older brother.
7 Q. Now, did you leave your apartment to go anywhere that day?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where was this?
10 A. I went out to the playground or, rather, to the parking that was
11 in front or nearby my building.
12 Q. And did you play there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Alone or with other persons?
15 A. There were many other children there.
16 Q. Can you remember the names of the children that were playing with
17 you?
18 A. Well, it has been a long time since then. I don't think I can
19 remember the names of all of the children. But I remember that there was
20 Mirza there who died; Nermin, who also died as a result of that incident,
21 and there was a boy called Dzenad, there as well, Alen. I can't remember
22 the names of all of the children who were there, but there was a total of
23 perhaps 10 of us there.
24 Q. Were there any girls there?
25 A. Yes.
Page 8009
1 Q. Can you remember the names of any of the girls that were there?
2 A. There was Lejla there and there were two other girls, but I truly
3 cannot remember their names now. I can't remember.
4 Q. What were you playing?
5 A. We were mostly throwing snowballs at each other and sledding.
6 Q. And while you were there, did you hear anything or did anything
7 happen?
8 A. Yes. We heard explosions of a shell. Since the sound of the
9 shell resonated between the buildings, we were unable to assess where the
10 explosion came from but, however, we could tell that it was quite near.
11 Q. Did you hear one explosion or more than one?
12 A. Actually, later on, I learned that there were two explosions.
13 However --
14 Q. For the time being, please tell us what you heard at that time.
15 While you were playing there with your friends, did you hear one
16 explosion or more than one?
17 A. One explosion.
18 Q. You said later on you learned something. What did you learn
19 later on?
20 A. We actually heard that those were two shells that exploded, one
21 after the other.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that this question
24 should not be allowed. This is hearsay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: There is no general rule against hearsay, so could
Page 8010
1 you please indicate why this hearsay evidence is --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that the
3 witness is talking about an important fact, an important incident that he
4 has personal experience of, and what happened afterwards does not
5 concern this Chamber. This Chamber should be concerned by the personal
6 experience of the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there anything?
8 MR. STAMP: I have no response to it, really. The question has
9 been answered and I would submit that whatever weight the Court deems fit
10 to give to that statement, the Court will do so in its best judgment. This
11 is not the first time I have heard hearsay in this Court and I am
12 not aware of any general rule against its admissibility, really. It is a
13 matter of the way it is interpreted.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, if you allow
18 me?
19 JUDGE ORIE: If it is really urgent, but I would rather that you
20 not interfere with whatever discussions. But if it relates to what you
21 heard at that time, tell us.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me explain. When I said
23 that I heard one and perhaps more of those shells fall, this is how it
24 goes. When the shell falls between the buildings, you can hear it
25 resonate, you can hear a sound of this nature. So it is hard to say how
Page 8011
1 many shells have, in fact, fallen because it resonates quite a lot and it
2 resonates between the buildings, so it is hard to say right away whether
3 it is one shell or more. You can simply make an assumption, and that is
4 all. And these shells fell immediately, one after the other.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, when you heard this shell or shells explode, did yourself
8 and your friends do anything?
9 A. Yes. We started running towards a safe place, which was the
10 entrance of our apartment building.
11 Q. And as you ran towards your apartment building, did anything
12 happen?
13 A. Yes. I managed to reach the building as the second shell fell. I
14 was wounded at that time and this is what happened to me.
15 Q. What part of the building did you manage to reach when the shell
16 fell?
17 A. I almost made it into the building. It happened right at the
18 entrance into the building.
19 Q. And where were your friends that you were playing with?
20 A. Well, they were mostly behind me. They didn't make it. They
21 didn't manage to enter the building.
22 Q. When the shell exploded behind you, did you feel or hear anything?
23 A. I felt stress. However, I didn't feel right away that I had been
24 wounded. The explosion shook me because it was quite nearby.
25 Q. And what did you do?
Page 8012
1 A. Well, I simply ran through the entrance and I tried to get to my
2 house up the staircase as soon as possible because I supposed that my
3 parents would be worried about me. This was simply my instinctive
4 thinking. I simply ran through the entrance and started running up the
5 staircase.
6 Q. And did you meet anyone on the staircase?
7 A. Well, as I reached the 6th floor or so, I realised that I had been
8 wounded, that there was blood running down my face. I wiped it and I saw
9 blood on my fingers and I started feeling faint, and at that moment my
10 father started coming down the staircase, so he was the first person that
11 I saw on the staircase.
12 Q. Did your father take you anywhere?
13 A. Yes. My father took me immediately to a nurse who lived on the
14 8th floor.
15 Q. And did she do anything in respect to your injury?
16 A. She said it was not wise to touch the wound at that moment because
17 it needed surgery. So she said she would just try to stop the bleeding,
18 and she put a kind of a bandage, a gauze, to my wound and said
19 professionally qualified people needed to attend to it.
20 Q. For how long did you remain in the nurse's apartment?
21 A. About half an hour.
22 Q. Why did you remain there for half an hour, do you know?
23 A. Because we were afraid that another shell could explode.
24 Q. And after that half hour elapsed, did your father take you
25 anywhere?
Page 8013
1 A. Yes. He took me to the military medical institution where they
2 attended to my wound and sutured it.
3 Q. What is this institution? What is it called and where is it?
4 A. It was the former barracks Viktor Bubanj, and it was perhaps one,
5 one and-a-half kilometres from my building.
6 Q. So were you treated at this medical facility?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we hear again the name
10 of the barracks because one of the booths failed to interpret that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slowly repeat the names of the
12 barracks, Mr. Todorovic?
13 A. Yes. It was called Viktor Burban.
14 Q. And from there, were you discharged and sent home or were you
15 admitted?
16 A. I was taken to a room there. So this cleaning and surgery of my
17 wound took perhaps some 15 minutes, and I was discharged immediately after
18 that.
19 Q. Did the doctors take anything from your wound?
20 A. Well, I couldn't tell at that time. There was a shrapnel there
21 and they had to clean it and remove bits and pieces and so on.
22 Q. Did you return there for treatment?
23 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was 10 or 15 days later
24 when I went to have the -- when I went to have them check my wound and
25 remove the stitches.
Page 8014
1 Q. When your father was taking you out of the building, did you
2 notice any at the front of the building?
3 A. No. I don't know what you have in mind. Oh, yes, yes.
4 Q. You did notice. What did you notice?
5 A. Did you mean the building in which I lived and not the medical
6 institution where I went to have my wound attended to?
7 Q. Yes. When your father was taking you away from Klara Zetkin
8 Street number 6, did you notice anything in front of the building that you
9 lived at?
10 A. Yes, I did. Since this was all done in haste, I managed to take a
11 quick look at the place where the shell landed and I saw traces of blood,
12 I saw sled there; I think there was a children's shoe there, a tennis
13 shoe.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to your friends that were playing with
15 you, who were behind you as you entered your building?
16 A. Yes. I knew that some of them died, but I didn't know at the time
17 exactly who had died.
18 Q. And can you remember the names of those who died?
19 A. Yes, I can. The names of the children who were my friends: There
20 was Mirza there, and then another boy called Mirza as well, a boy called
21 Nermin. There were two girls whom I didn't know personally, however, I
22 used to see them in front of my building, and they were somewhat younger
23 than me so I didn't know them fully well.
24 Q. Did you know their names, the two girls?
25 A. I didn't know at that time but I learned their names later on.
Page 8015
1 Q. What were their names?
2 A. Their names were Indira -- and I can't remember the name of the
3 other girl right now. I can't.
4 Q. Very well. Were you the only -- was your group of children the
5 only group of children that was outside playing that day?
6 A. No, I don't think it was the only one, no.
7 Q. That day in the parking area in front of your building, did you
8 see any soldiers or any military activity taking place?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. In the course of last year, did you participate in the production
11 of a video on which you indicated to an investigator of the OTP certain
12 places which are relevant to this incident that you just spoke of?
13 A. Yes, I did. I did.
14 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I
15 proceed to show the witness and have him identify Exhibit P3281.G?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, leave is granted, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: Thank you. It seems as if the -- if it is important,
18 the number is P3281.G.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have in words now on the transcript.
20 [Videotape played]
21 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you please indicate by pointing
22 where, to the best of your recollection, you and your friends were playing
23 on the 22nd of January, 1994.
24 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
25 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you please indicate by pointing
Page 8016
1 where, in which direction, to the best of your recollection, you and your
2 friends started running after you heard the first shell explode on the
3 22nd of January, 1994.
4 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
5 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you. Can you now please show
6 me by standing at the location where, to the best of your recollection,
7 the shell which wounded you exploded on the 22nd of January, 1994.
8 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
9 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Mr. Todorovic, can you now please
10 show me by walking to and standing on the spot where, to the best of your
11 recollection, you were located when you were wounded on the 22nd of
12 January, 1994.
13 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
14 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you walk to the spot and stand
15 there.
16 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
17 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I am now going to mark that spot with
18 yellow paint in the figure of an X with a 1 beside it."
19 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
20 Mr. President, with your leave, I propose also to show the witness a
21 photograph and ask if he can identify that photograph.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
23 MR. STAMP: Before I do so, may I just for the record.
24 Q. The places that you indicated in the video that you just saw, I
25 take it you did so to your best recollection and knowledge. Is that
Page 8017
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 8018
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. STAMP: Could photograph P3678.D be shown? Slowly turn it
5 clockwise. And slowly turn it clockwise.
6 Q. If and when you see the spot where you were injured, please tell
7 us to stop.
8 A. Stop.
9 Q. Could you describe for us the spot where you were injured at?
10 A. What do you mean? How do you mean, to describe it?
11 Q. Tell us where it was. Do you see the spot on the photograph?
12 A. Yes, I can see the spot on the photograph. I don't know how to
13 describe it. I could perhaps indicate that it is on the right-hand side
14 of the screen. It is the entrance, the only entrance on that part of the
15 screen that can be seen from this angle. This is the spot where I was
16 wounded.
17 Q. Is that the area where there is a motor car parked?
18 A. Yes, behind the car, in front of the entrance.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. STAMP: Could you continue turning. Could you stop there,
21 please.
22 Q. The area where the cars are parked, is that the park in front of
23 the building that you were playing at?
24 A. Yes, that is the parking lot. Yes, except it was the upper part
25 of the parking lot. The photograph should be turned to the left-hand side
Page 8019
1 to show the exact area where we played.
2 MR. STAMP: Could you please turn it slightly to the left.
3 A. Yes, you can stop now.
4 Q. Where is it, if you can describe the place on the photograph.
5 A. Yes. The spot is located exactly underneath or beneath the
6 chimney, which can be seen quite well, so it is on the parking lot, but it
7 is in the direction of the chimney.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MR. STAMP: Can you continue to turn to the right. Could you stop
10 there, please.
11 Q. The street which runs towards a building in the background of the
12 photograph, is that Cetinska Street?
13 A. It is not the entire street. Cetinska goes approximately -- in
14 fact, it begins from there, from the second lamp post. So from that post
15 that we can see going from here. So Klara Zetkin Street goes towards this
16 side, like that. Towards me.
17 Q. Thank you. And I take it from your answer that this is a true and
18 accurate photograph of the area in front of your apartment building?
19 A. Yes, yes, it is.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further in chief, may it please you,
22 Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.
24 Ms. Pilipovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 8020
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Todorovic, you will now be examined by counsel
2 for the defence.
3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Can you answer this question: On the 22nd of January, 1994, how
7 many of the children were playing in this area where you lived?
8 A. I cannot quite remember. I cannot recall. I didn't count the
9 people. I didn't think it was necessary. But there were about 10 of us
10 or so.
11 Q. Today, you told us -- answered by my learned colleague that you
12 heard one explosion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If I tell you that in the statement that you gave to the
15 investigators of the OTP on the 18th of September, 2001, that in that
16 statement you said that you heard two explosions, could you perhaps answer
17 what is true? What is the truth?
18 A. Well, when I said that I heard two explosions, of course, what
19 happened is that I learned two explosions happened. I heard about it
20 later after the incident. I heard there were two shells later. Because
21 they were resonating, there was -- the sound was deflected so it was
22 impossible to tell how many shells had fallen.
23 Q. When you said that you learned about it later that two shells had
24 landed and that it was on the basis of that that you told the
25 investigators that two explosions had taken place, could you perhaps tell
Page 8021
1 us, did you hear where these shells had fallen?
2 A. It was not possible to tell where they had fallen. You mean did I
3 tell them? I am not sure that I understand the question.
4 Q. My question: When I told you that you told the investigators of
5 the OTP that you heard that there were two explosions and today, at the
6 question of my learned colleague, you said that you had heard only one
7 explosion. Now, considering this difference, you told us that it was
8 later that you heard that two shells had landed and it was on the basis
9 of that that you said that there were two explosions.
10 Now, if I have not interpreted you correctly, please correct me.
11 A. It is okay. Now, when the Prosecutor asked the questions, this
12 was not -- this kind of question, it wasn't when I heard it or how many I
13 heard, how many explosions I heard. The question wasn't what I knew then
14 and what I knew now. That was not -- that was not stressed as being very
15 important.
16 Q. Since you answered that you learned later since you heard that
17 there were two explosions -- two shells, as you said, could you perhaps
18 tell us where did they fall, these two shells, that you learned about?
19 A. They landed behind the building where I lived. So we played in
20 front of the building where I lived and they fell behind the building.
21 Q. When you say, "on the other side on the other building, behind the
22 building," could you perhaps clarify for us what is located behind your
23 building, on the other side of the building?
24 A. What is located is a small kind of park.
25 Q. Where this kind of park is, could you tell us whether that area,
Page 8022
1 that park, has a name?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you perhaps later, as you say, that you learned that two
4 shells had landed there, did you learn whether anyone was injured by the
5 landing of these two shells?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you say "no," does that mean that you didn't learn anything
8 or that nobody was injured?
9 A. I didn't learn, I didn't find out, nor did I enquire about
10 anything about it.
11 Q. In the area where you played and where you were sledding, we saw
12 that area on the video material and on the circular photograph. Now, in
13 that area, do you know in that area where the shell landed and how many
14 shells landed?
15 A. Do you mean throughout the war or -- ?
16 Q. On the 22nd of January.
17 A. They came -- they fell in that area, those two shells, and then
18 two also fell in another street, lower down. But that is quite some way
19 away from where the two shells landed that had to do with us.
20 Q. Now, if I showed you the circular photograph again, could you
21 perhaps indicate on the circular photograph in relation to the place
22 where you were injured, could you perhaps tell us where these two shells
23 landed?
24 A. Do you mean in the area where I was wounded?
25 Q. Yes.
Page 8023
1 A. The first shell that landed cannot be seen in that area. You
2 cannot see the spot of the explosion of the second shell.
3 Q. When you say it cannot be seen, the spot where the second shell
4 landed, could you see perhaps where the first shell landed?
5 A. Well, the camera was actually located on the spot where the first
6 shell landed. Where the photograph was taken from, the camera was located
7 on this spot.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to show
9 the witness Prosecution evidence 9281, that is the 360-degrees photograph.
10 We can be shown the spot of the first --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, what -- I made a mistake.
12 I made a mistake with the spots. Where the first to where the second
13 landed, I think I made a mistake with the two of them. So perhaps if we
14 can show on the photograph, I think I may have mistaken first for the
15 second.
16 You can see -- so this is the second shell that I am talking
17 about. The first one landed behind --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Slow down a moment. You have at a very high speed.
19 Mr. Todorovic, everything you say has to be translated first. So if you
20 immediately answer the question, then the interpreters have no time to
21 translate the question, and the same is true for Ms. Pilipovic. So would
22 you please take a pause now and then.
23 Ms. Pilipovic, did you want to show the witness again the
24 360-degree photograph we just saw?
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The circular photograph, yes, Your
Page 8024
1 Honour, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is on my screen under computer evidence.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The number is P3678.D.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It is "D", not "G"? On my list, it is "G." Did you
5 want to show the video or the circular photograph?
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Circular photograph, Your Honour.
7 But what I have put on is that the video was 3281.G.
8 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you have a photograph before you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us, now that you can see the photograph before you,
11 this hill at the background of the photograph behind these two high-rise
12 buildings, could you tell us what is the name of the hill?
13 A. I think that is Zuc hill.
14 Q. Mr. Todorovic, here in this part of the photograph, could you
15 indicate for us the spot where, according to you, the shell landed?
16 A. Which shell?
17 Q. The first one.
18 A. You cannot see it in this area.
19 Q. What about the second?
20 A. The second fell on the spot where the camera is located now.
21 Q. I would ask for the photograph to go to the right, please. If the
22 cursor could be moved to the right, please.
23 Mr. Todorovic, you tell us as we going around with the photograph
24 when to stop.
25 A. You can stop now.
Page 8025
1 Q. Are you saying that it is in this part, according to you, the
2 second shell landed?
3 A. Yes. It fell behind the building.
4 Q. Behind the building?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Todorovic, on this photograph, can you indicate on this
7 photograph where the shell landed from which you had injuries and your
8 friends had injuries?
9 A. Yes. It is located on the spot, the spot where the video
10 is -- where the camera, where the cameraman is located.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask to continue the
12 circular movement of the photograph, please.
13 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you tell us when to stop.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry, could we stop now.
15 Q. Mr. Todorovic, could you tell us, this hill that we can see in the
16 background behind these houses, could you tell us what is the name of the
17 hill?
18 A. Mojmilo hill.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you continue, please, the
20 circular movement of the photograph to the right.
21 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you tell us when. Can you see it at the time that
22 this is going around? Can you see the spot where the shell landed?
23 A. Which shell?
24 Q. The shell you suffered injuries from.
25 A. You cannot see it because the spot is where the cameraman is
Page 8026
1 standing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, he has now five times said that the
3 actual spot where the camera is, is the spot where the shell landed. I
4 don't know what's the use of asking him again the same question.
5 But please proceed.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am now finished
7 with the circular photograph questioning because now I understand now that
8 the spot that the shell landed from which the witness suffered injuries is
9 where the cameraman is standing, and I just wanted to conclude that we
10 cannot see this spot. Thank you.
11 Q. Witness, could you tell us where in relation to the place that you
12 were wounded at, how far is where the cameraman is standing, that is, how
13 far is the spot from where the shell landed to the spot where you were
14 injured, could you tell us?
15 A. 10 to 15 metres. That is an approximation. I never calculated
16 it exactly.
17 Q. Could you tell us whether on that spot -- can you see that spot?
18 Can you see the spot? Can you see the marks from the grenade, from the
19 shell?
20 A. I am not sure that understand. What spot and what traces?
21 Q. On the spot where the shell landed, is there a trace? Is there a
22 trace from the shell?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you can see the spot?
25 A. Yes.
Page 8027
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Todorovic, asked by my learned colleague, you
2 answered that on that day when you were playing with your friends, that
3 you did not notice soldiers there?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Could you answer, please, in the period 1992, 1993 and 1994, in
6 that area where you lived, did you see soldiers?
7 A. Soldiers were not permanently there in the building. Of course I
8 saw soldiers passing by, not a number of them, not in convoys, but simply
9 people from the houses went to the front line. That is quite normal.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see it is time
11 for a break. I will have another 10 minutes. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Todorovic, we will have a break for half on hour
13 so we will resume at 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
15 --- Upon resuming at 11.00 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed with the
17 cross-examination of the witness.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Todorovic, just before the break, you told us that -- before
20 the break, you told us that you used to see soldiers?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us how they were dressed?
23 A. Well, it wasn't a real full uniform. Some of them wore camouflage
24 uniforms and tennis shoes and then an ordinary jacket on top of it, or
25 they would only have camouflage trousers on them. It wasn't a real full
Page 8028
1 uniform on them.
2 Q. In view of the fact that you were 12 years old at the time, did
3 you know that in the vicinity of the place where you lived, there was a
4 military staff, a military headquarters where the troops converged?
5 A. There was definitely nothing of the sort in the vicinity of the
6 building where I lived, but liberally speaking, I think that within a
7 kilometre, kilometre and-a-half, there was a first front line, so there
8 might have been some kind of headquarters there.
9 Q. In the vicinity of the place where you lived, was there a
10 restaurant called "Stela"?
11 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
12 Q. Do you know that in the area of Phase-C where you lived, there was
13 a headquarters of a detachment known as Kulin Ban?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In relation to this part where you indicated the shell had landed,
16 can you tell me how far was it from that spot and to the premises where
17 the headquarters was located?
18 A. I don't know exactly, perhaps some 500 metres. Perhaps more
19 than that. I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. I don't know. I
20 can't tell you precisely.
21 Q. You told us today that the shell that inflicted injuries on you
22 and your friends was the second one that landed. Have you learned later
23 on where the first shell had landed?
24 A. Yes. Or, rather, not the exact spot. I was simply told that it
25 landed behind the building, but I don't know the exact spot where it
Page 8029
1 landed.
2 Q. In view of the fact that you told us that in relation to the place
3 where you were injured, the second grenade, the second shell, landed some
4 10 metres away, so can you tell me in relation to the first grenade, how
5 far is it from there, where the second shell landed?
6 A. I can't tell you exactly. I was told that it landed behind the
7 building, but I never saw the exact spot because, for a month after my
8 being wounded, I didn't go out of the building. And the second shell
9 landed on the grassy area so that the traces of its landing were gone
10 soon thereafter.
11 Q. You told us that in relation to the place where you lived, the
12 front line was about 1 kilometre away?
13 A. Yes, approximately 1 kilometre, perhaps more.
14 Q. Well, when you tell us that, is this your personal knowledge or is
15 this something that you learned from somebody from your family or somebody
16 else?
17 A. Well, I learned that later. During the war, we knew approximately
18 where the front line was, and after the war, I went to the place where the
19 front line was and I saw where it was.
20 Q. When you told us that the first grenade landed on a spot that is
21 hard to identify right now because there is no trace left, can you tell us
22 this: This spot where the first shell landed, can you tell us how far is
23 it from the headquarters of the Kulin Ban detachment?
24 A. Well, you mean with respect to the first shell?
25 Q. Yes.
Page 8030
1 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly because I don't know the exact
2 spot where the first shell landed. I simply know that it landed behind
3 the building, but I don't know exactly where.
4 Q. After the incident which took place on the 22nd of January, 1994,
5 can you tell us whether around that time or immediately thereafter
6 anybody spoke to you about the incident which took place? Did you talk
7 to anybody about it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Can you tell us when was it that you spoke to somebody and gave
10 information regarding this incident for the first time?
11 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but it could have been a year
12 after the incident that I gave my first statement. I can't tell you
13 exactly. It is hard to pinpoint it. I know that it was definitely a year
14 or more than a year, but I don't know exactly.
15 Q. One more question: When you told us that you heard the explosion,
16 you couldn't tell whether it was one or two explosions, but can you tell
17 us whether you heard where the shell was fired from?
18 A. I am not sure. I can't remember.
19 Q. When you say, "I can't remember," does this mean that you did not
20 hear where it was fired from or you don't remember?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. In this statement you gave to the OTP investigators on the 18th
23 of September, 2001, you said, "I didn't hear the firing of the shell."
24 Is that true?
25 A. I don't know.
Page 8031
1 Q. Can you tell us whether that is true, the fact that you said that
2 you didn't hear where it was -- where it had been fired from?
3 A. Yes, I think that is correct.
4 Q. Was any member of your family a member of the BH army?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: When you quoted the witness for the first time, it
7 reads in English that he would have said, "I didn't hear the firing of the
8 shell." In your second question, it reads in English: "Can you tell us
9 whether that is true, the fact that you said that you didn't hear where it
10 was where it had been fired?" The first quotation is about whether he
11 heard the shell being fired. The second quotation is about a direction.
12 Could you please inform the Chamber whether the first or the
13 second one is correct?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my first question was
15 a full quotation of the witness's words in the statement given to the
16 investigators on the 18th of September, 2001, and this is paragraph 4 of
17 the document of his statement, where in paragraph 2, the witness is
18 recorded as saying, "I did not hear the shells being fired." And I wanted
19 the witness to confirm whether this was true.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in your second question, your quote was a
21 bit different, and there is some relevance.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that is my interpretation.
23 The first time I quoted and the second time I interpreted that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8032
1 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you told us that some members of your family were
2 members of BH army or that your father was a member of it; did I
3 understand you well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether your father had a uniform?
6 A. Not a full uniform, but he had some parts of it.
7 Q. Do you know whether he was issued weapons?
8 A. No. Or rather, the weapons were not normally brought home and he
9 typically did not go to the front line.
10 Q. Can you tell us how much time during a day or during a week your
11 father spent in his unit?
12 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I think that it was every other
13 day that he went there. But I don't know exactly. I can't remember. But
14 at any rate, he spent quite a bit of time there.
15 Q. When he went to serve there?
16 A. Well, what I meant is that he would go there every other day, so
17 he would be at home a day and at the front line for the next day.
18 Q. Well, when you say that he went to the front line, can you tell us
19 where your father slept at night?
20 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly. I never accompanied him, so I
21 don't know exactly.
22 Q. Did your father tell you where the front lines were, the ones
23 where he was at?
24 A. No. I didn't know that fully, no.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't have any
Page 8033
1 further questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
3 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
4 MR. STAMP: No re-examination, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
6 Mr. Todorovic, since the Chamber has no further questions to you,
7 this concludes your testimony as a witness in this court. You have
8 answered the questions of both parties and, well, you will be certainly
9 aware that it is important for us to hear from those who were present at
10 the relevant times, at the relevant places, to hear from those persons the
11 answers to the questions of both parties. I thank you very much for
12 coming to The Hague. I know it is quite a distance, it is quite a
13 journey, and I hope you have a safe journey home again.
14 Mr. Usher, could you please lead Mr. Todorovic out of the
15 courtroom.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, as far as I can see, we have two, I
18 couldn't say documents, but two objects to be admitted. Could you please
19 guide us.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3678.D, 360 degree Quicktime movie;
21 Exhibit P3281.G, video.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Now,
24 regarding the 360-degrees photograph, apart from the usual objection that
25 we have, we believe that you also noticed that this photograph seemed to
Page 8034
1 have been made - and it comes across from the testimony from this witness
2 - not in the usual way but in some other way. And now to demonstrate
3 this, now, I would like to point out that very often we can see the shadow
4 which -- from where the photograph was taken and then we can see from
5 where the trace that couldn't be seen. And now this witness said that the
6 person who was the cameraman, that he was on the spot taking the
7 photograph. Now, I believe that I can remember that Mr. Lesic, the expert
8 who came to testify, told us that there was a system with a tripod and
9 that there was a special angle so that this photograph can be taken and
10 that then photographs are taken in a series and they are pieced together.
11 Now, this photograph shows us that this was not taken in the usual
12 way because we can see the shadow of the person taking the picture. We do
13 not see the tripod at the certain number of degrees, the way that it was
14 explained to us before. And I just wanted to make sure that the Trial
15 Chamber also noticed this. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, do you want to make any observation in
17 relation to this specific objection against the --
18 MR. STAMP: No, I have no observations to make except that I would
19 submit that it is adequate that the witness can testify where it was taken
20 from and that it is a fair and accurate depiction of the area in front of
21 his home where the incident happened. If it please you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In order to pay full attention to your remark,
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you explain to us what makes you believe that the
24 photographer would have the camera in his hands, instead of standing next
25 to the tripod?
Page 8035
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that this comes out
2 from the testimony of the witness who just testified, of Mr. Todorovic,
3 and I believe that we can see very well on the photograph itself the
4 shadow of a person holding with his two hands, at the height of the face,
5 that is, fixing a camera, or at least what seems to be a camera. So we
6 can see this shadow on the surface on the image of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you that we saw a shadow.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps just look at it again so that we
10 have a better picture of the one who is supposed to take the pictures.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could look for it in the
12 transcript. I believe that in the English transcript it is possible to
13 see where there is somebody said that -- or the witness said that there
14 was a person standing, and if it is necessary, I can look it up in the
15 transcript.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that there is hardly any -- well, let's
17 just first look at the 360-degrees photograph and perhaps where it is
18 facing the building, because that is approximately where I remember
19 that -- Could you please turn it to the right, up until we are facing the
20 building because there it is where I remembered I saw some shadows. No.
21 Could you please also turn a bit downwards because I noticed that
22 sometimes you can go a bit higher up. Perhaps go a bit downwards and then
23 back to the left. To move to the -- no, no, no. It is not zooming in,
24 but going more to the ground level, so as low as possible.
25 That is the lowest? There we are. Yes.
Page 8036
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was a lot clearer earlier,
2 Mr. President. We were able to see better before. But I believe that we
3 can see the right hand of the photograph and the left hand of the
4 cameraman. I think that here we can see the gesture of someone who is
5 holding their hand in front of their face with what looks to be a camera.
6 And the testimony of Mr. Todorovic a moment ago was precisely this: [In
7 English] "where the cameraman is standing."
8 JUDGE ORIE: The cameraman is not the same as someone holding a
9 camera, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I do agree with you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I did hear the testimony of the witness but your
12 interpretation is not a reflection of just the words, but is an
13 interpretation.
14 Is this the most lower? As we can't go any further down? Could
15 you zoom in -- out? Is there any zooming out? No. It doesn't give us
16 any extra information. Well, at least we have seen it. We have heard the
17 interpretation of the Defence of this shadow.
18 Is there any need for you, Mr. Stamp, to comment on the shadow?
19 MR. STAMP: I have no further comments to make, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You have no further comments to make.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Having listened carefully to the additional objection
23 of the Defence and having looked again to the picture, the Chamber has
24 decided that the 360-degree photograph will be admitted into evidence.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 8037
1 JUDGE ORIE: I will just give a short reason for the decision as
2 well, and that is that it has -- the Chamber is not able to interpret the
3 shadow we have just seen as a circumstance that would indicate that this
4 360-degrees photograph is not taken according to the explanation given to
5 us before on the production of these 360-degrees photographs. That means
6 that both the video and the 360-degree photograph just mentioned by the
7 Registrar are admitted into evidence.
8 Mr. Stamp, that means we are now at a point where you could call
9 your next witness, which would be protected witness "J."
10 MR. MUNDIS: That's right, Mr. President, for whom the Chamber has
11 granted the use of a pseudonym and facial distortion during the course of
12 his testimony.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Since there is no voice distortion, I think we can
14 just proceed. Is the face distortion effective at this moment? It is.
15 So then would you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
16 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, may I be excused?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would
19 just like to make use of this short break to say that in French
20 transcript, in line 25, page 36, things were added which were not included
21 and I would like to just make sure that the booth is aware of that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am certain that the proper care will be taken
23 to listen with even more precision during the work on the transcript.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. J, as I will call you because, in
Page 8038
1 this courtroom, we will not use your own name, as a result of protective
2 measures granted in respect of you. I also inform you that on the video
3 screen that is broadcasted, your face will not be visible.
4 Mr. J, I should have started to ask you whether you can hear me
5 in a language you understand.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, Mr. J, the
8 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration,
9 and the text of this solemn declaration will be handed out to you now by
10 the usher. May I invite you to make that declaration.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS J
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
16 Mr. J, you will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
17 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the usher show the witness the document
19 marked P3684, which contains the witness identifying information for the
20 record.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
23 Q. Witness J, I just asked -- I know you just said "yes." If you
24 could verify that your name and date of birth are as listed on that sheet,
25 without saying that information out loud.
Page 8039
1 A. Yes, that is my name and surname and my date of birth.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness J. Could you tell us in what city you were
3 living at the time the war broke out in Bosnia?
4 A. I lived in Sarajevo.
5 Q. And Witness J, is it also correct that you have lived in Sarajevo
6 for all of your life?
7 A. Yes, I was born in Sarajevo and I have lived in Sarajevo my whole
8 life, and I still live in Sarajevo.
9 Q. At the time the war broke out in Sarajevo, what was your
10 profession?
11 A. I was a policeman.
12 Q. Have you continued serving as a police officer to the present day?
13 A. Yes, I am still a policeman.
14 Q. When did you first join the police force in Sarajevo?
15 A. It was on the 18th of September, 1991.
16 Q. And what type of training did you receive to become a police
17 officer?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
20 The last question to you was what type of training you received to
21 become a police officer, and then we were interrupted, but could you
22 please answer this question?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I completed so-called course which
24 was a shortened training course for policeman, which was established at
25 the time, which was valid at the time.
Page 8040
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. Approximately how long did that training course last, and what
3 were the subjects that you studied during the duration of that course?
4 A. First, it was a course for policemen. Among other things, we were
5 doing criminal law, material law, procedural law, law on traffic, and many
6 other subjects that are important for police work. So this is a special
7 course for policemen. And then later on, when I was transferred to other
8 types of work in 1993, I also completed a course in criminal
9 investigation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp [sic], may I just interrupt you, and may I
11 apologise to you, Mr. J. In order to solve a computer problem, I was
12 informed that your case manager has to perform something that makes some
13 noise. And in order not to be -- to be surprised by it, could you please
14 make your noise at this very moment.
15 If we would not have needed or, at least, if the Prosecution would
16 not have needed the computer during the testimony of the witness, of
17 course, we would have waited until the break. And the second observation
18 I would like to make is that if noisy people are never any noisier, then
19 it would be far more quiet in the world. Yes. Thank you very much.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp [sic].
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Let me repeat the question with respect to how long the course
23 that you undertook lasted.
24 A. The first course was three months, and the second one, about two
25 months.
Page 8041
1 Q. What were your duties when you were first graduated from this
2 police course?
3 A. I was an ordinary policeman.
4 Q. Did your duties subsequently change, and if so, how?
5 A. Yes, my duties changed in a sense that later on I was a criminal
6 investigation policeman. So I was conducting investigation of crimes,
7 that is, particularly in robberies and theft, that is burglaries,
8 investigating burglaries, mostly.
9 Q. When did you become a criminal investigator, the approximate
10 month and year?
11 A. That was early 1993.
12 Q. At the time when the war broke out in Bosnia, what type of police
13 work were you doing?
14 A. I was an ordinary policeman, that is, a policeman who is
15 regulating traffic
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
17 very often we spoke about a moment when the war broke out in Sarajevo. I
18 don't know whether that is the same time when the war broke out in Bosnia.
19 So I don't know whether my learned colleague could perhaps give a more
20 precise date that he is referring to.
21 MR. MUNDIS: I can certainly ask the witness, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Witness J, to the best of your recollection, when did the war
25 begin in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
Page 8042
1
2
3
4
5
6
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8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
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18
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25
Page 8043
1 A. We, as policeman, believed that that was the 4th of April, and I
2 am talking about Sarajevo. And I think it probably started earlier, but,
3 more specifically, in Sarajevo, it started on the 4th of April, 1992, when
4 I can now call it VRS took the police school, which was the police
5 college, which was in the settlement of Vrace.
6 Q. And I believe you say, "I think it probably started earlier." By
7 that, do you mean that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina started prior to the
8 war beginning in Sarajevo on 4 April, 1992?
9 A. Well, yes. I think that this is places like Zvornik and
10 Bijeljina. I am not quite sure now.
11 Q. You also mentioned, "when I can now call it VRS." What does the
12 acronym VRS stand for?
13 A. VRS is the army of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how conditions of
15 life changed in the city of Sarajevo once the war began?
16 A. At the moment when the war started, at least in the first few ten
17 days or so, nobody can quite believe it. And people still lived in a
18 normal way. They went shopping, they went to work. So everything went
19 its usual course, but then there was a feeling that something was wrong,
20 and at that time there was sudden shooting-- shootings that happened,
21 sudden firings. I think that was about 2nd of May, when it was -- the war
22 really started then, when there was strong shelling and firing in town.
23 Q. Witness J, I would like to draw your attention to the period after
24 10 September, 1992. Did the shelling and firing in town that you referred
25 to continue after the 10th of September, 1992?
Page 8044
1 A. Yes, it did. I believe that in September 1992, I was at the time
2 still where I was when the war started, which is in Electroprivreda
3 facility. That was at the time -- it was in September. It was the
4 settlement of Trg Heroja, Hero Square, had the heaviest -- suffered the
5 heaviest shelling at the time, as far as I can remember.
6 Q. And what exactly were you doing in the electro facility?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but I believe that
9 the French booth is trying to say that the interpreter was not able to get
10 the name as well as the name of the facility, the electrical facility.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The name of what, apart from the electro facility?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The name of the place, the
13 location.
14 JUDGE ORIE: At the time it was at the settlement -- yes, could
15 you please repeat the name of the electro facility and the name of the
16 place where it was located?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the building -- that was
18 the administration of the electrical supply of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it
19 was in the settlement called Socijalno.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that solve all the problems from the
21 French booth? Well, of course, I should listen. Yes. If I do not listen
22 to the French channel, of course, I cannot hear the comments of the French
23 booth. I apologise. But everything has now been cleared.
24 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp [sic]. I have to apologise, Mr.
25 Mundis, because that is already the second time.
Page 8045
1 MR. MUNDIS: It is okay, Mr. President, I get the drift.
2 Q. Witness J, within the settlement of Socijalno, was the electrical
3 supply administration building located on Hero Square?
4 A. No. The Hero Square is across from the River Miljacka from the
5 Socijalno settlement.
6 Q. And what precisely were your responsibilities in the
7 administration of the electrical supply of Bosnia-Herzegovina building?
8 A. We were protecting the outside of the building, to protect it from
9 robberies.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I am very sorry,
11 Mr. President, but since I am going to be in charge of the
12 cross-examination, I haven't heard the localities and that is very
13 important. You can see that on line 17 of the current page, the
14 localities are not mentioned. So I was wondering whether if the witness
15 could be asked to repeat what he said.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat where you said that the Hero
17 Square is across from the -- I think you mentioned a river.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was settlement called Trg
19 Heroja, Hero Square, and then there is a river Miljacka, and that is
20 between the settlement of Socijalno.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters are normally --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear enough for you?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will try and find my way out
24 of it by using a map.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have changed to the French booth, and now I have to
Page 8046
1 listen to the English booth. So I change again to channel 4, I think.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters are normally
3 writing down the names of geographical concepts, so it is later on given
4 to the person who does the transcript.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin now specifically asked
6 for the names because he would need them during cross-examination and, of
7 course, he cannot wait until tomorrow.
8 So usually, you understood, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, usually, these
9 names are always checked and written down later, but since you need them
10 now to cross-examine the witness, as I explained to the booth, an
11 exception is made and we ask the witness to repeat it. The river at least
12 is Miljacka River.
13 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. Witness J, approximately what was the time period when you were
16 working security at the electrical administration building, during what
17 time frame?
18 A. Well, that ended about in October.
19 Q. Of 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Moving into 1993, at the point in time in which you were doing
22 investigations, did there come a time when you began undertaking, along
23 with your partner, investigations into sniping incidents?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you recall the approximate month and year in which you were
Page 8047
1 first called upon to conduct an investigation concerning sniping?
2 A. Well, that happened throughout 1993.
3 Q. Approximately during the course of 1993, approximately how many
4 sniping investigations did you conduct?
5 A. I think about ten or so, dozens.
6 Q. Did you also conduct sniping investigations through the first half
7 of the year 1994?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Approximately how many sniping investigations did you conduct in
10 that year?
11 A. A number of them. I can't quite remember, but in 1994, there were
12 many sniping incidents.
13 Q. Did you also during the period 1993 through the first half of
14 1994, also conduct investigations with respect to shelling incidents?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Approximately how many, or if you don't know that, how frequently
17 did you conduct such investigations?
18 A. Such investigations, we conducted only when there were injured
19 persons.
20 Q. And approximately how many shelling incidents were there where
21 people were injured?
22 A. I really cannot tell you with certainty. But there were a number
23 of occasions.
24 Q. And where was the location of the police building that you were
25 working out of during 1993 and the first half of 1994?
Page 8048
1 A. In 1993, that was the 4th police administration, which was located
2 in the settlement of the Hero Square, Trg Heroja.
3 Q. Did you continue working out of that same location in the first
4 half of 1994?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Approximately how large was the area of the city that fell within
7 the jurisdiction or responsibility of the 4th police administration?
8 A. The 4th police administration covered the area, that is the
9 separation from the bridge, from the settlement Malta until the end of
10 the bridge, that is the 27th of July bank, Pere Kosorica Square, and I am
11 talking about old names of streets that we used at the time. So that the
12 27th of July bank, Pere Kosorica Square, Brace Ribar Street, then there
13 was Ivan Krndelj Street. Then there was old Hrasno, and then there was
14 other streets in Hrasno Brdo: Zagorska, Sremska, Milinklacka, Triglavska,
15 maybe few others. But I believe these are the settlements: Hrastovo
16 Brdo, Staro Hrasno, and Pere Kosorica Square. These are names from before
17 the war, old names.
18 Q. And which part of the city of Sarajevo were these streets and
19 settlements located in?
20 A. That was municipality of Novo Sarajevo.
21 Q. Did you at any time during the period from 1993 through the first
22 half of 1994, conduct any type of criminal investigation outside of the
23 municipality of Novo Sarajevo?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I would like to focus your attention on investigations that you
Page 8049
1 conducted with respect to sniping incidents during this period, 1993
2 through the middle of 1994.
3 Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the standard procedures
4 that you would use in investigating sniping incidents during that period?
5 A. When sniping incidents occurred, the way that the procedure went,
6 considering that we were somewhere in the centre of town, it was very hard
7 to get to the Trg Heroja, Rasno, Hrastovo Brdo, because during the day you
8 couldn't cross the bridge which connected these settlements with the rest
9 of the city. So when sniping incidents occurred, normally, the procedure
10 was to call the homicide department which specialised for this type of
11 work. Then we would inform the forensics and the investigating judge who
12 were necessary to be present at an investigation as a team. But in most
13 cases, this type of team could not be established because it was not
14 possible to get to the settlement during the day because either there was
15 another -- there was a shelling in another part of town or there was
16 combat in another part of town, or simply it was not possible physically
17 to cross the bridge because of the sniping activity.
18 Q. Did the police administration building that you worked in continue
19 to have the regular utilities and infrastructure that would permit you to
20 carry out investigations?
21 A. No. My colleague and I did not have any equipment except a
22 typewriter and paper that we had. As far as electricity is concerned, we
23 occasionally had it and in situations where we had fuel to get the
24 generator going. But as far as vehicles are concerned, we didn't have a
25 vehicle or any means which would help us in our work. The telephones
Page 8050
1 operated very rarely, so it was with a radio connection that we managed to
2 be in touch through the operation centre in case we needed to contact the
3 hospital. Because the hospitals were quite a long way away from us, so in
4 case if there was a victim, it would be hard for us to get to the
5 hospital.
6 Q. How did you normally during this time period receive information
7 or reports that a sniping incident had occurred?
8 A. Normally, medical institutions informed us through the operation
9 centre that a person somewhere in that settlement was injured or they
10 would sometimes give the exact address. If the victim survived the
11 incident, then they would know exactly where that happened. Or then
12 through the duty officers, the chief officer, we would be directed to go
13 to the place where the incident happened, the sniping incident.
14 Q. Witness J, did you conduct an investigation into a sniping
15 incident involving a woman named Edina Trto?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Do you recall the approximate month and year in which this
18 incident occurred?
19 A. That was in September 1993.
20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did in terms of the
21 investigation into this incident?
22 A. That incident, about this incident, we found out only two hours
23 later. I cannot tell you exactly who informed the police administration
24 about this incident because I was told this by the shift duty officer, and
25 I went to the site of the incident two or three hours later. The body of
Page 8051
1 Edina Trto had already been taken away, probably by some people who were
2 in the vicinity. They took the body to the hospital, they drove it to the
3 hospital. So, through the operations centre, we found out about the name
4 and the date of birth and what the injury was. And that was all the data
5 that we had at the time that we were able to gather in connection with
6 this incident. I arrived at the site two or three hours later when the
7 shooting calmed down.
8 Q. As part of your investigation, did you subsequently speak to
9 anyone at the hospital about Mrs. Trto and what had happened to her?
10 A. We tried, but in the hospital they did not have any more data in
11 relation to this person. We were not able to find the witnesses who drove
12 Edina Trto to the hospital. Because at the time in the settlement, there
13 were many people who lived and who were refugees from other areas who were
14 near the front line and then they started living there. So, as a matter
15 of fact, we did not have the real situation that we could count on with
16 regard to where to find people that we would need to speak to.
17 Q. What did you discover upon arriving at the site where Mrs. Trto
18 had been shot? What did you see and what did you do there?
19 A. I found traces of blood, no other traces.
20 Q. Did you look around the site where Mrs. Trto had been shot to
21 possibly discover any sources of fire with respect to that incident?
22 A. Yes. This was a normal procedure, so I toured the wider area and
23 I determined that the shell was probably fired, most likely fired from the
24 direction of Osleska Street. The shot came most likely from all.
25 Q. Just to clarify, perhaps it was a translation error, was Mrs.
Page 8052
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 8053
1 Trto hit by a shell or a sniper bullet?
2 A. Sniper bullet.
3 Q. Witness J, late last year did an investigator and photographer
4 come and take you to the site where Mrs. Trto had been shot?
5 A. Yes, they did.
6 Q. And were you present when a videotape was made with respect to
7 that location?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown
10 the video marked P3280.Z, and that that be done in closed session in order
11 to protect the identity of the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we will turn into closed session.
13 [Closed session]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 8054
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen that we are in open
20 session now.
21 MR. MUNDIS:
22 Q. Witness J, on the basis of the site visit that you conducted with
23 respect to this incident and based on your experience in previous
24 incidents involving sniping in this general vicinity, did you reach any
25 conclusions as to where the possible source of fire was with respect to
Page 8055
1 that incident?
2 A. The conclusion was that the sniper bullet was fired from the
3 Ozrenska Street, which was under the control of the army of Republika
4 Srpska, because during the entire war, there were well-known sniper spots
5 there.
6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown the 360-degrees
7 panoramic photo which has been marked P3279.ZZ.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, can I
10 just use this interval, if a technician could come and help me because I
11 have a blocked mouse and I cannot move it. So if somebody could come and
12 assist me. I have no access to the computer. Thank you. Thank you,
13 madam.
14 JUDGE ORIE: This solved the problem? Yes.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Witness J, do you recognise the image in the screen in front of
18 you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What does this image depict?
21 A. This image depicts a part of the building, Ivan Krndelj number
22 six, also Ina building, Ina BH building. This is what it was called
23 before the war. I think it is still called "Ina," but I don't know if the
24 letters "BH" are still in its name. And it also shows the parking lot in
25 front of it.
Page 8056
1 Q. Towards the left-hand side in the photograph, in approximately the
2 centre, there's what appears to some -- a hilly region with trees on it.
3 Do you recognise what that area is?
4 A. I think that could be either Pofalici settlement or Buca Potok.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I ask that the photograph be turned to the right.
6 Q. I would ask the witness if, at any time he sees the area that
7 contains Ozrenska Street, to please tell us to stop the photograph.
8 A. Stop.
9 Q. Can you please describe the area that is visible on the photograph
10 which contains Ozrenska Street.
11 A. This is the top of the hills on which you can see to the right of
12 this green building, and then above the shopping centre that you can also
13 see. So the hilly area, the top of the hill.
14 Q. Witness, do you have any idea as to the approximate distance from
15 Ozrenska Street to the spot where the photographer was standing who
16 took this photograph?
17 A. Well, my own assessment would be 600 to 700 metres as the crow
18 flies.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I ask the case manager to continue with
20 the photograph to complete the 360-degree view, please. Thank you very
21 much. I would ask the witness be shown a photograph which has been shown
22 P2379.Z. If that could be placed on the ELMO, please. And also if the
23 witness could be provided with a blue marker, a blue pen, please.
24 Q. Witness J, I ask you to turn your attention to the photograph
25 marked P2379.Z. Can you tell us what this photograph depicts?
Page 8057
1 A. This photograph depicts the Hrasno settlement, Ivan Krndelj
2 Street, three high-rise buildings, Ivan Krndelj Street number 6, 2 and 4,
3 and it even depicts the red high-rise building in Ivan Krndelj Street and
4 this part of Obala 27th July Street, and you can also see the bridge
5 connecting settlements Malta and Hero Square, and you can also see this
6 yellow building, which was a commercial building before the war. And
7 then, up here, you can see, I think, this area which is to the left of
8 Pofalici and Buca Potok. I am not sure which settlement exactly this area
9 belongs, to the first or to the second settlement. And then you can see
10 the building of Ina BH and also a part of the parking lot in front of Ina
11 building and the building in Ivan Krndelj number 6.
12 Q. Witness J, is the location where Mrs. Trto was shot visible on
13 this photograph?
14 A. Well, she -- it was right here near the top of this building.
15 Q. If you could please take the blue marker and draw a circle
16 indicating the approximate location where Mrs. Trto was at the time she
17 was shot.
18 A. It was right here next to this vehicle.
19 Q. If you could please draw a slightly larger circle around the dot
20 that you made.
21 Thank you, Witness.
22 MR. MUNDIS: That is all with the photograph for now. Thank you,
23 Mr. Usher.
24 Q. Witness J, did you also conduct an investigation into a sniping
25 incident involving Nafa Taric and her daughter?
Page 8058
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Do you recall approximately what month and year that incident
3 occurred?
4 A. It was also September of 1993.
5 Q. Do you recall how the report of that incident came to your
6 attention?
7 A. Same way as the previous one. In the case of Trto Edina, somebody
8 took the lady to the hospital and then the medical institution and
9 informed the police administration who, in turn, informed us.
10 Q. Did you visit the location where Mrs. Taric and her daughter had
11 been shot?
12 A. Yes, I did visit it.
13 Q. What type of investigation did you carry out upon arriving at that
14 location?
15 A. Well, I took a survey of the broader site, but in this case I
16 didn't find any traces of blood or any fragments or casings or anything of
17 the sort.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I know that the
19 transcripts are revised every night, but we are now told in the
20 French booth that these two people were killed by bullets, and I know that
21 they weren't.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The translation was still ongoing when you started
23 making your observation. Could you please repeat the beginning.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly, I am sorry. I
25 know that the transcripts are revised every evening, but there are things
Page 8059
1 that I just can't let go by because we heard from the French booth that
2 these two people were killed by bullets and, of course, this is not a
3 deadly incident, and I would like it to be corrected immediately. Thank
4 you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, hit my bullets is not the same as killed by
6 bullets.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. MUNDIS:
9 Q. Witness J, did you also conduct an investigation into a shooting
10 incident involving Atema Mukanovic?
11 A. I think her name is Hatema, her first name.
12 Q. Hatema Mukanovic?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Do you recall approximately what month and year that incident
15 occurred?
16 A. In 1994, but I am not quite sure now as to the month.
17 Q. Do you recall if it was in early 1994 or the summer of 1994 or
18 late in the year of 1994?
19 A. I think it was late 1994.
20 MR. MUNDIS: I ask NOW that the witness be shown a map which has
21 been marked P3234, and I would ask that a post-it or other appropriate
22 redaction be made over the lower right-hand portion of that map which
23 contains identifying information concerning this witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before putting it on the ELMO -- I am informed that
25 the name has been covered. Please proceed.
Page 8060
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. Witness J, during the past few years, have you been interviewed on
3 at least one occasion from investigators by the Tribunal?
4 A. Could you please repeat the question?
5 Q. On at least two or three previous occasions, have you been
6 interviewed by investigators from the Yugoslav Tribunal?
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. And during the course of those interviews, were you provided with
9 a map and asked to make certain notations upon that map?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is the map which has been placed in front of you one of the
12 maps on which you made several marks in a red pen?
13 A. Yes, that is the map.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, for the record, I would simply note
15 again that the normal procedure here is that red is reserved for the
16 Bench, but with respect to this map, those marks had previously been made
17 by a witness simply to avoid confusion later.
18 Q. Witness J, let's start with the number one. Can you tell the
19 Trial Chamber what that mark indicates?
20 A. Mark number 1 depicts the place where Edina Trto was shot, where
21 that incident took place.
22 Q. Can you tell us what mark number 2 is on this map, please?
23 A. Mark number 2 depicts the positions of the army of Republika
24 Srpska where the shot was fired from.
25 Q. Above the number 2 or below it, if you are looking at the number 2
Page 8061
1 in the correct position, there is a line that has been drawn in red. Can
2 you tell us what that line represents?
3 A. Based on my recollection, this is where the line separating the
4 army of Republika Srpska and that of army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was.
5 Q. Was that line commonly known as the confrontation line?
6 A. Well, that is a line that never moved from the beginning of the
7 war until it ended. It always remained the same throughout the entire
8 war.
9 Q. Can you tell us what the number 3 that you marked on the map
10 represents?
11 A. Number 3 is the spot where the Taric Nafa incident took place,
12 where Taric Nafa was wounded.
13 Q. And the spot marked with the number 4?
14 A. The spot marked number 4 is the building in which Mukanovic Hatema
15 lived and where she was killed by the sniper bullet.
16 Q. And with respect to number 5, it is marked on the map, can you
17 tell us what that location indicates?
18 A. Number 5 indicates the spot where my brother was killed by the
19 sniper shot.
20 Q. Do you recall the month or day and year in which your brother was
21 shot?
22 A. It was on the 22nd of March, 1993.
23 Q. At the time your brother was shot, how old was he?
24 A. He hadn't turned 17 yet.
25 Q. At the time your brother was shot and killed, was he serving in
Page 8062
1 the military in any capacity?
2 A. As far as I know, he was not a member of the army.
3 Q. With respect to the mark or the spot marked with a number 6 on the
4 map, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what that number represents?
5 A. Number 6 is the spot where I was hit by a sniper bullet.
6 Q. Do you recall the time period in which you were shot by the sniper
7 bullet?
8 A. It was on the 20th of March, 1993, two days before my brother was
9 killed.
10 Q. And finally, the spot that you have marked with the number 7. Can
11 you tell the Trial Chamber what that number represents, please?
12 A. Number 7 indicates a spot from which the shot that killed
13 Mukanovic Hatema was fired.
14 Q. How was that location derived? How did you determine the place
15 from which Mukanovic was shot?
16 A. We conducted the on-site investigation. I did this with a
17 colleague of mine. And since we had an entry and exit wound, and on the
18 windows of her apartment there was a plastic foil, so the bullet went
19 through -- went in and then went out, and then we were able to use a rope
20 to determine the trajectory of the bullet.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness J.
22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
25 Mr. J, we will first have a break and then after the break, you
Page 8063
1 will be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence. We will have a break
2 until a quarter to 1.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
4 --- Upon resuming at 12.50 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that you are --
6 you will cross-examine the witness. But, before asking you to do so, I
7 would like to make one small remark in respect of what we discussed
8 yesterday in the early morning hours.
9 As I told you, I would inquire further in the medical aspects, and
10 it was brought to my attention until now that not all the wishes that you
11 expressed yesterday were yet known by OLAT. In general, I would say that
12 this is not because this Chamber feels that it could not pay proper
13 attention to it, but the quickest way of achieving what is most needed
14 would be by addressing OLAT first, because what we have to do is to
15 inquire with OLAT what has been done, et cetera, et cetera. So if you
16 take the direct route, that might even speed up things. This will not
17 stop us from making further inquiries, but going the direct way might be
18 even more in the benefit of General Galic than doing it through the
19 activity of the Chamber. I just wanted to let you know. And we are
20 waiting now to get further information from OLAT and from the detention
21 unit.
22 Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
24 the attention that you are showing to -- in respect of these matters. The
25 problem was the following, is that we had a week of a break where we were
Page 8064
1 all physically away from each other and from General Galic, and it seems
2 that his situation has unfortunately not improved, but on the contrary,
3 has deteriorated. Another point is that the OLAT does know that General
4 Galic has asked for some time now a structure in his cell which would help
5 him, and this is a very important point and that the service does know
6 about it. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We will further inquire into it, and you will try to
8 choose the quickest way, that is the direct way. I would rather not
9 discuss it any longer since the witness is waiting to be cross-examined.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Generally speaking, you know how much the Defence likes to be speedy when
13 they are able to.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. I would like to ask you some questions following
18 examination-in-chief. First of all, I would like to show you a document
19 which will have a number 105.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a
21 document which has been just communicated by the Prosecution. That is the
22 map which was annotated by the witness. But the reason why we would
23 tender it, introduce it, would be for another reason. Now, if we could
24 have the assistance of the usher, we would like to have everyone look at
25 this map. Thank you.
Page 8065
1 JUDGE ORIE: Has the name been covered?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is exactly
3 the same map that was shown earlier.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking whether, when it is put on the ELMO,
5 that we --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. No. What -- sorry,
7 I apologise. What we would have to do is that the signature, which is
8 hardly legible, it should be actually hidden before we put it on the ELMO,
9 so we shouldn't put anything on the ELMO right now. We should perhaps
10 find a sticker that I don't have at the moment. Perhaps somebody could
11 help me with this, perhaps with a small yellow sticker. Thank you.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D105.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that we should now
14 have this document on the screen. Excellent.
15 Q. Now, Witness, in a moment I will ask you some questions in
16 relation to this document, but before that, I would like to ask you to
17 answer certain questions. You said that you had a course so that you can
18 conduct simple ballistic investigation; is that correct?
19 A. It was not ballistic training. It was simply some primitive
20 information or devices that I could use to help me do investigations. But
21 I can say firmly that I had no formal ballistic training.
22 Q. I am going to have to stop you here. Thank you, Witness, I'm
23 sorry, but in order not to waste time, I am going to stop you. Now, you
24 recognise this map which is before you?
25 A. Yes, I do.
Page 8066
1 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you can see the numbers 2 and 7 which
2 are written upside-down?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Now, this area, 2 and 7, this area, was it
5 an area which was going uphill?
6 A. Yes. It was seen from the top toward the slope.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel for Defence be asked to make
9 breaks because the interpreters aren't able --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I very much appreciate your
11 willingness to make enough speed, but the translators cannot follow you.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is the
13 speed, right? Is that the problem? I will slow down.
14 Q. Witness, can you see the line which goes between numbers 2 and 7?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. This line does correspond to the demarcation line between the two
17 camps -- the two parties; is that correct, according to your knowledge?
18 A. Well, I will have to explain this further. As a member of the
19 police force, after the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established, I was
20 not allowed -- I did not have access to any combat line. So I cannot tell
21 you with certainty where exactly the separation line was because I never
22 had access to it.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait for the
24 interpreters to finish?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
Page 8067
1 Q. Who wrote this line? Who put this line in?
2 A. I put this line here, based on my knowledge. I am not an expert,
3 and --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel not interrupt the witness?
5 We are unable to interpret.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, interrupting the witness, although
7 I do understand why you do it, creates major problems for the --
8 especially the English booth. So I have to -- even if you would interrupt
9 the witness, would you please interrupt him but not immediately resume
10 asking next questions? Just -- yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will take care.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Now, Witness, can you see that above number 2, can you see this
14 area which looks to be a -- has a triangular form?
15 A. I am sorry, I did not understand your question.
16 Q. I will rephrase it. Now, between numbers 2 and 7, a little to the
17 left, above number 2, you have an area which is criss-crossed. Can you
18 see this, which is shadowed. Can you see this area?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. Very well. I would like you to take a marker, with the leave of
21 the Chamber, a black marker, and if you can just mark this area, please.
22 For the moment, if you do not put anything on it, if you can just dot it.
23 Now, in this area, if you can write a number 8, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
Page 8068
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 8069
1 Now, Witness, would you agree with me that this number 8 is next
2 to the area that you say was the area of the BH Army, held by the BH Army?
3 A. Well, that's what it is, approximately. I cannot claim that
4 with certainty.
5 Q. Now, I am going to interrupt you, thank you very much.
6 Witness, what is -- and I am now going to ask you a technical
7 question. What would prevent anyone from considering that there was a
8 shot that was fired from an area that is marked as 8, rather than 2 or 7?
9 A. You mean technically?
10 Q. Yes, because that is what I am asking you.
11 A. Nothing prevents it.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. We can take this from the
13 screen.
14 Now, Witness, I am going to ask you another different series of
15 questions which are in relation to your experience and the incidents that
16 were mentioned. First of all, I would like to start with one -- is the
17 one which is greatly upsetting for you, and this is the incident regarding
18 your brother. You do remember that, don't you?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Very well.
21 Now, the Prosecution question, you were asked whether your brother
22 was in any way a member of the armed forces and your answer was -- for me,
23 it was a rather strange answer; you didn't say yes or no. It was
24 ambiguous. You said -- if I ask you: Did your brother belong to an army,
25 what is your answer?
Page 8070
1 A. Yes, I would allow for that possibility. Do you want me to give
2 you a further explanation?
3 Q. Yes, please explain it, especially explain it for the Chamber.
4 A. Well, all of the conscripts had to be 18 years or older. However,
5 a large number of young people, without the knowledge of their parents,
6 applied to some units that were not of military character, just in order
7 to have three meals a day.
8 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. Thank you very much indeed
9 for this answer.
10 Now, another question: As a policeman, you took an oath, didn't
11 you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, would I deduce from your answer that there is a high
14 probability that your brother was a member of a military unit?
15 A. My brother never wore a uniform, and to my knowledge, he was not a
16 member of any unit. At that time, I spent more time at the police
17 station than at home. My mother lived as a refugee at an elementary
18 school in the settlement Trg Heroja and my other brother --
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Now, could you confirm, Witness, at the beginning of the war,
21 regular troops, as well as irregular troops, were practically not wearing
22 a uniform?
23 A. During the first few months, that is true, but afterwards, all of
24 them had either a uniform or some insignia. These uniforms were usually
25 made from canvas.
Page 8071
1 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said a moment ago that, as far as you
2 know, there were children below 18 years of age that joined voluntarily
3 units, para units, in order to be able to access canteens; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, that is a possibility, however, I know that it was not the
6 case in this particular instance. These young people never participated
7 in any kind of military operations or anything of this sort.
8 Q. But they were invited to be part of the war effort; is that
9 correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What was their function then?
12 A. All they wanted was to have three meals a day, breakfast, lunch
13 and dinner.
14 Q. But if they were joining units, formations, military units, what
15 were their tasks, their duties?
16 A. No tasks at all. They were not members of those units. They were
17 simply children, young people who lived there. So they had to feed
18 themselves somewhere because they had no food in their homes.
19 Q. So what you are saying is that the army would allow it that the
20 children would go and eat in military canteens. Is that what you are
21 saying?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So why are you talking about the canteens, Witness?
24 A. I am talking about them because these kids, these young people,
25 went to those so-called military canteens to get their food there.
Page 8072
1 Q. You know this, don't you, Witness?
2 A. It was a well-known fact these kids were not members of military
3 units.
4 Q. How old were they, these children, in general?
5 A. I am talking specifically about my brother. He went there, but he
6 was not a member of any military unit.
7 Q. I understand. But if people didn't have a uniform, Witness, was
8 it possible that it would be easy to confuse a child going to a military
9 canteen with a soldier who was perhaps only a few months older? I am
10 talking in general.
11 A. They did not have uniforms perhaps during the first few months in
12 1992. In 1993, it was already an established army and they did have
13 uniforms. So that was not possible what you are talking about.
14 Q. Witness, I would like us to now focus on some other elements. You
15 spoke about a building of Elektroprivreda, the electrical supply
16 administration. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I would like to show you another document. That would be
19 D106, which is a map of Sarajevo.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this map does
21 not have any name, I believe. I am just going to have a look. Yes, it
22 doesn't, and I think we can submit it. Thank you.
23 Q. Witness, you have before you a map. Do you recognise it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you tell us on this map where the
Page 8073
1 building of Elektroprivreda is located that you spoke of earlier? Perhaps
2 you could use a pointer, please.
3 A. It is a building marked "P524."
4 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to ask you to take a relatively thin
5 marker.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Usher, a black
7 colour.
8 Q. And if you can circle this area in such a way that -- thank you
9 very much. In such a way that we are able to see.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you. I would like to suggest that you put number 1 next to
12 the circle as we will possibly have other annotations.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, Witness, do you know if in this area, in
15 the immediate vicinity of this area, there were also military barracks?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You are saying "no." Does this mean that you don't know or that
18 there were no barracks?
19 A. I don't know that barracks were there.
20 Q. Very well.
21 Now, in your capacity as a policeman, do you know where would the
22 HQs or the HQ of brigades and of the most -- the most important battalions
23 in the area?
24 A. Yes, I could show you approximately where it was.
25 Q. Could you please show it approximately?
Page 8074
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Witness, could you perhaps do it with a pointer first and then put
3 it in a specific place? Now, with the pointer, if you can just point at
4 the specific spot with the pointer.
5 A. Well, I am not sure I will be able to do that with precision.
6 Q. You can do it in a general way, perhaps.
7 A. Well, approximately, 1 was here in this area here.
8 Q. Stop, please.
9 Now, if you can put in this area another circle with a number
10 which would be number 2, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Very well.
13 Now, Witness, do you know which brigade or battalion was in
14 question here?
15 A. This area here was called Hrasno Brdo. I don't know, it kept
16 changing the name during the war.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you.
18 Could you continue with other locations that you know of, please.
19 A. I think that it was somewhere here.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 Can you now put a circle and a number 3 around that area.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Do you know, Witness, what this area was? Do you have a name,
24 perhaps?
25 A. Yes, I know that the headquarters was here, somewhere.
Page 8075
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Could you give us the street, please, Witness.
3 A. It was Porodice Ribar Street. That is the current name.
4 Q. What was the old name of the street?
5 A. It was Brace Ribar.
6 Q. Now, same place, Witness, for the location and the number 2.
7 A. The name of this street is the name, so somewhere before
8 Varazdinska Street, I think it was previously called Sremska Street.
9 Q. Thank you, Witness. Could you continue, please, with the fourth
10 location.
11 A. I don't know any locations in this area.
12 Q. And do you know of any locations in other areas on the map?
13 A. No, I don't know. I don't know those military headquarters.
14 Q. Do you know where the MUP was, the MUP? Could you indicate it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which street, please?
17 A. Do you want me to tell you the central headquarters of the police
18 administration or you want the republic MUP?
19 Q. No, just the address of the central institution where you worked,
20 the MUP itself, its address.
21 A. It is the street currently called La Benevolencija, and formerly
22 it was called Augusta Cesarca.
23 Q. Do you have a number, please?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And perhaps you could give us the name again, that was Augusta
Page 8076
1 Cesarca?
2 A. Augusta Cesarca. That was the name before the war.
3 Q. If you don't know the number, Witness, it doesn't matter.
4 Do you know whether next door to the MUP, there was another
5 military HQ?
6 A. No, it was not next to the MUP. The specialist units were in the
7 main building of the MUP during the war.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you.
9 We are going to another series of questions, Witness. Now, you
10 said that every time that an incident happened, the hospital would inform
11 you about it. Is that correct?
12 A. Well, it was true for some cases and not for others.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. The hospital informed us of every case.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 When the hospital would inform you, what was the delay, the time
17 that passed from the moment when the incident happened and the information
18 was transmitted to you?
19 A. Well, sometimes it was one or two hours.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 And what was the reaction time of your team?
22 A. We tried to go to the site immediately upon learning of this
23 information, but in some cases, we weren't able to do so due to the
24 sniper activity.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could the counsel please wait
Page 8077
1 for us to finish the translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. J, may I ask you also to look at your screen
3 where the transcript is and not start answering the question until the
4 moment that the cursor stops moving. The interpreters have difficulties
5 in following.
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is for you as well, so you would
7 understand. I don't have to explain it to you.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel repeat his last question
9 because it was not interpreted due to the overlap.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please repeat your last question,
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. Witness, as far as my last question is concerned, this is what it
14 was. I was asking you whether it was possible that your team was going
15 -- was intervening 8 or 10 days after the incident occurred, and your
16 answer was "no," that you reacted immediately. Is that what your answer
17 was; is that what you said?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 Witness, I am going to return to the question of the hospital.
21 You said - and for the transcript that was page 55, line 14 - that when
22 the victims of an incident survived, when they survived the incident, they
23 knew exactly where this incident happened. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 8078
1 So consequently in your reports, and I am not talking about "your
2 reports" but reports of your team, of the forensics and the other
3 policemen, you always knew when an incident happened, and when you knew
4 that people survived, where this incident happened. Is that correct?
5 A. Could you please repeat the question?
6 Q. Yes.
7 Now, when a person was a victim of an incident with not lethal
8 consequences, you indicated that generally it was known where this
9 incident occurred. This person knew where this happened; is that correct?
10 A. In the majority of cases, yes.
11 Q. Very well. So always in the majority of cases, your police
12 services knew at the time of the facts, knew where these incidents took
13 place?
14 A. Yes, we knew where the incidents took place.
15 Q. Consequently, if you knew these locations, this is what you put in
16 your reports; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that is right. We put all of the information that we had at
18 our disposal into reports.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like
21 to, and the witness, shown a piece which is the Prosecution piece, and it
22 has a number, P3681, and I would like to -- the reason why I would like to
23 have it shown is because the gentleman is a policeman and perhaps he could
24 be of some assistance. And this piece, the Registrar has it, of course.
25 In order to avoid any error, this is, Madam Registrar, this is a
Page 8079
1 photographic document which is a police notebook, Sarajevo police
2 notebook, and I believe that the number is 3681. I believe
3 that is the number.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The document is under seal. That means that we have
5 to go into private session -- closed session. Yes.
6 The exhibit is admitted under seal so we have to turn into closed
7 session to continue.
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8 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, but, Madam
9 Registrar, am I well informed that we are in Courtroom III tomorrow
10 morning? Yes. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom
11 III.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
13 1.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
14 the 8th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
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