1 Thursday, 9 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

12 MR. STAMP: Indeed, the Prosecution is, Mr. President. It is

13 Witness R who is here and available, and I believe the arrangements for

14 voice distortion are in place.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's also my information.

16 So we will wait until he is brought into the courtroom.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. I take it that you can hear me in a

19 language you understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. R, because we will call you Mrs. R, since

22 protective measures are granted in respect of you, protective measures

23 that mean that your face is not visible, your voice is not audible as it

24 is, but will be distorted, and your name will not be used in this

25 courtroom.

1 Mrs. R, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

2 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

3 nothing but the truth. The text of this declaration will be handed out to

4 you now by the usher, and may I invite you to make that declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS R

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the witness is not speaking into

10 the microphone. French booth made a mistake, Mr. President. Ask the

11 witness to say it again, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you to repeat it because they had

13 some difficulties in hearing you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. I will now switch to the -- it has

16 now been understood and translated.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

19 Prosecution. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you to put off your microphone when the

22 witness is answering the questions.

23 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, may I proceed by

24 handing to the witness a document marked P3685?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

1 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

2 Q. Witness R, can you hear me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I am going to ask you to look at that document and say nothing

5 until I ask you two questions about it. Thank you, you may close it now.

6 By telling me "yes" or "no," could you answer whether or not you

7 see or you have seen your name and date of birth on that document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness R, because of necessity, you have been

10 granted protective measures. I wish to take you directly to the events

11 that you are here to speak about without going into your background in any

12 detail.

13 In the years 1992 to 1994, were you living in Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. And did you go anywhere in particular on the 4th of February,

16 1994?

17 A. Yes. I went to Dobrinja.

18 Q. Can you recall where in Dobrinja you went to?

19 A. The place is called Dobrinja I and the area is called Branulatsa

20 Sarajeva, something like that.

21 Q. Did you go to a particular site in that area?

22 A. Well, yes, it was a gathering point. We used to barter food items

23 there.

24 Q. And was that your purpose to be there, to barter food items?

25 A. Yes, that's right. I needed to obtain flour to feed my children.

1 Q. Could you describe the area where you were, the immediate area

2 where you were involved in this bartering?

3 A. Well, I took a longer route to Dobrinja because I wanted to take a

4 safer route that I believed was safe from shelling.

5 Q. And what did you take to barter for flour?

6 A. I took apples.

7 Q. And did you put these apples at any particular place?

8 A. Well, they were packed in one kilogram packages and I had them in

9 my bag, sitting next to me. So people who would bring flour would give me

10 flour and I would give them apples in exchange.

11 Q. While you were in this area where the bartering took place, can

12 you say whether or not there were other persons there and about how many?

13 A. There were many people. There were people from my neighbourhood.

14 There were women from my neighbourhood who died. Some were wounded, some

15 were uninjured. And there were people from Dobrinja as well. Some of

16 them got injured, some of them were unharmed. I can't remember all of

17 their names. I don't even know all of their names.

18 Q. I have it here that you said -- I have it here that you said --

19 oh, "unharmed," I beg your pardon. I thought it was "unarmed."

20 Since you are here, may I ask you: While you were there, did you

21 see anyone with any weapons?

22 A. No, I didn't see anybody with arms.

23 Q. Did you see any soldiers there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, you said that some of the persons there were injured. Could

1 you tell us precisely what happened to cause injuries, and just tell us

2 what you observed.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, we heard this

5 sound of shells, if I can call it that, and a shell landed at that moment

6 between or amongst ourselves. There were many wounded. I was among them.

7 My neighbours were wounded. There were people who got killed, and there

8 were people from Dobrinja as well whom I don't know, but there were many

9 people. I can name some of them.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. Let's take it step by step and in sequence.

12 Where the incident occurred, what is the first thing you hear, if

13 anything?

14 A. We heard this sound of a shell. We didn't know where it was going

15 to land. We didn't even think it was going to land near us because all of

16 us were gathered together, but this is what happened.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, counsel.

18 MR. STAMP:

19 Q. After you heard the sound of the shell, did you hear where it

20 landed and whether it exploded?

21 A. One shell landed further away behind a building. That is how we

22 felt it. And the other one landed in a spot where we were gathered.

23 Q. The shell that landed further away, is this the one that you heard

24 passing?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And was this the first or the second shell?

2 A. The first shell. The second one landed in a spot where I was

3 together with my neighbours and other people.

4 Q. After you heard the first shell pass over and explode between

5 buildings, did you and your friends do anything?

6 A. Well, we tried to get shelter in the building entrance but, later

7 on, we came back because we didn't think that another shell would come.

8 Q. About how long after you heard the first shell did you return to

9 where you were at the beginning?

10 A. Two, three, perhaps five minutes. I can't really pinpoint

11 exactly. We were afraid.

12 Q. And when you returned to where you were, what happened?

13 A. Soon thereafter, a shell landed in a spot where a group of women

14 was.

15 Q. And when you say the shell landed, could you describe to us what

16 you heard and what you saw?

17 A. I heard a sound. I couldn't see a shell because there was smoke

18 and dust all over. People were screaming, just like I was, because I

19 could tell right away that I had been wounded.

20 Q. And what happened after that?

21 A. I was afraid so I ran to an apartment, and a man there helped me.

22 Other people who could flee, they fled, but some people remained in a

23 spot, and some women remained there wounded until somebody came to pick

24 them up. This is how it was.

25 Q. Were you taken anywhere?

1 A. Yes. This man in whose balcony I took shelter, he helped me and

2 he helped me take off my boots. I don't know exactly what I was wearing.

3 So I sat there and a woman came in a white coat, she was probably a nurse,

4 and she bandaged my leg and helped me a little bit. And then they loaded

5 me in a car and took me to the hospital in Dobrinja.

6 Q. And were you treated there?

7 A. Yes, I was treated and released that day, and then I had to go

8 daily to renew my bandages.

9 Q. While you were being taken to the hospital, did you hear anything

10 else?

11 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean, "anything

12 else"?

13 Q. How many explosions did you hear that day in Dobrinja?

14 A. I can't remember. There were many, but I can't remember the exact

15 number. We were so afraid that we didn't manage to count them.

16 Q. Now, was this the first occasion that you were injured in that

17 time period that I mentioned earlier, 1992 to 1994?

18 A. I was wounded in October of 1992 by a sniper, but I didn't give

19 any statement pertaining to that until last year. Nobody asked me about

20 that. And then I gave a statement, and you probably have a copy of that.

21 Q. Yes, I do. But I am going to ask you to tell the Court about that

22 incident very quickly.

23 Where were you wounded by the sniper? Which place were you at?

24 A. The place is called Mladeni. I went to get a bucket of water

25 there. There was a well there.

1 Q. Did you go alone or were you accompanied by anybody?

2 A. I was alone and I hurried. I wanted to get water as soon as

3 possible and get back as soon as possible.

4 Q. Tell us about the circumstances in which you were shot. What were

5 you doing precisely at the time when you were shot?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. At this

8 stage of the discussion, if we want to gain time, the Defence would like

9 to suggest perhaps if we can just put questions in essence on what it is

10 actually in the Defence's brief -- in the Prosecution's brief and not

11 about other facts which are not in this brief so that we don't move away

12 from our point. Because otherwise, any witness could go on about a litany

13 of little facts that we don't really need to concern ourselves with.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: I believe that part of the Prosecution's brief, and I

16 take it to mean the pre-trial brief, referred not only to -- to scheduled

17 sniping incidents which was indicated that we would attempt to prove in

18 detail, but that they would be referring to unscheduled sniping incidents,

19 and I think that is also reflected in the 65 ter summaries of the evidence

20 -- in respect of evidence of a variety of witnesses. We don't propose to

21 use too much time to go into a variety of incidents, but it is reflected

22 in our brief that we intend to prove briefly some unscheduled sniping and

23 shelling incidents.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The suggestions made by Mr. Piletta-Zanin do not

25 cause me to give you any further guidance. Please proceed.

1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. What precisely were you doing at the time you were injured by the

3 sniper?

4 A. Well, I felt an impact and I was so afraid that I hurried back

5 home. I wasn't far from my house. I was so afraid, at least, that it

6 didn't seem far. And when I got home, my brother helped me and took me to

7 the state hospital.

8 Q. What were you doing when you felt the impact?

9 A. I wasn't doing anything. I was simply hurriedly walking to my

10 house because I wanted somebody to help me. I was very much afraid. I

11 was panicked because I was alone.

12 Q. Could you listen carefully to the question I am asking you.

13 At the time when you felt the impact, what were you doing?

14 A. Well, I knew I had been wounded. I was about to cross the street,

15 if that is what you mean, to reach the well. So I stepped from the road

16 on to the lawn and I was hit at that moment. I was perhaps two or three

17 metres away from the well and I didn't make it to the well.

18 Q. Where were you hit? In other words, in what part of your body

19 were you hit?

20 A. In my knee and -- in my knee on the right leg and above the right

21 leg, and I also had an entry and exit wound on my left leg.

22 Q. Can you say the direction from which you were shot?

23 A. From the settlement of Nedzarici.

24 Q. And on what basis can you say that?

25 A. Well, because that part, that area, can be seen from the spot

1 where I was and we always supposed -- not that we supposed, but this is

2 how it was that they always shot at us from that part of Nedzarici.

3 Q. At the time when you felt the impact, which direction were you

4 facing? Were you facing any particular community?

5 A. Well, I was. I was facing Nedzarici. I believe that I would see

6 somebody and would have time to take shelter, but I didn't manage to, and

7 what happened, happened.

8 Q. How were you dressed on the day you were shot?

9 A. I had a skirt, a plain skirt as we call it, and a jacket or some

10 sweater. But, generally, the clothes one would wear at home.

11 Q. If I may take you back to the incident of the 4th of February,

12 1994, you said you sustained injuries that day. Could you tell us what

13 part of your body you got injured at?

14 A. I was wounded in the left leg below the knee. It was a

15 through-and-through wound.

16 Q. And did you receive a medical record from the Dobrinja hospital in

17 respect to your injuries?

18 A. Yes, and I think that you have a copy of that as well. I saw that

19 document two days ago when I visited an office here.

20 Q. That medical record, did you give a copy of it to an investigator

21 of the OTP?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And did you sign the copy which you furnished the OTP with?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, may I

2 proffer to the witness a document marked P2251.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: And to the Court that document, as well as the

5 document marked P2251.1.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It will be the translation. Thank you.

7 MR. STAMP: Could it be given to her off the screen or on the desk

8 in front of her? Her name is on it, and there are protective measures.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think the usher was intending to put it on

10 the ELMO, but it should not be. Yes.

11 MR. STAMP:

12 Q. Witness R, is that a copy of your medical record from Dobrinja

13 hospital?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Do you see where you signed and do you see your signature there?

16 A. Yes, I see it. I can see it well.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. STAMP: Would it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours, I

19 have nothing further of this witness in chief.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. Would you please return the

21 document to the Registry, please.

22 Mrs. R, questions will be put to you now by counsel for the

23 Defence.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. You told us today that on the 4th of February, 1994, you went to

4 Dobrinja. Can you tell us what time that was? When did you set off for

5 Dobrinja?

6 A. It was in the morning. It was before 12.00. In any case, it was

7 the morning I was in Dobrinja. I can't tell you the precise hour, but it

8 certainly was in the morning.

9 Q. On that 4th of February when you set off for Dobrinja, who did you

10 set off with?

11 A. There were neighbours of mine who were with me, quite a few of

12 them. I knew some of them. Some of their names I did know, some of their

13 names I don't. There were people with me.

14 Q. When you say "neighbours," how many were you?

15 A. Those that I knew, there were four or five, six of us, something

16 like that. It was our gathering point, Dobrinja I, and then we would meet

17 up there. There were about four or five of us, I think, when we went

18 through the trenches, the connecting corridors for the trenches.

19 Q. Was a person named Fata Spahic also with you?

20 A. We met down there. I don't know who came first, whether it was me

21 or Fata, but in any case we were down there together.

22 Q. Do you remember if she came before you or you were the one who

23 came and then found her?

24 A. I can't remember the details, but we saw each other down there.

25 Q. Could you tell us which route did you take from the part of the

1 settlement where you lived to get to Dobrinja?

2 A. That was through -- across Mojmilo hill and then through a

3 connecting corridor trench which was dug for the civilians. We went

4 across the Lukavica road and then we went on to Dobrinja.

5 Q. How often do you take this route?

6 A. I only went once on that day. I didn't go before, while the

7 others did go on a number of occasions.

8 Q. So you say that that was the first time you went to Dobrinja on

9 that day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Asked by my learned colleague why you were going to Dobrinja, you

12 said that, "This was a gathering point, this is where we bartered food."

13 A. This is where my neighbours went and this is -- I joined them on

14 that day.

15 Q. On the way to Dobrinja, did you meet a soldier?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you warned by anyone that you should not be going to

18 Dobrinja?

19 A. No, no, we were not told anything by anyone. We needed to go. We

20 needed to get food for our children.

21 Q. In the part of town where you lived, near that part where you

22 lived, did Fata Spahic also live?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see troops in that part of town?

25 A. No, I did not.

1 Q. Did you see or did you know that on the Mojmilo hill there was BH

2 army?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. When you say that these were civilian trenches, could you tell us

5 where do you have this information from? How do you know this?

6 A. Well, I think they were for civilians, because civilians used

7 them. Those neighbours of mine who went before, that is what they used.

8 They never said before that they saw any soldiers, any troops. So on

9 that day either, I didn't see anyone.

10 Q. How often did your neighbours take that route to get to Dobrinja?

11 A. I really don't know. I don't know how frequently they went. I

12 know they did go, but I don't know how many days they went. I wouldn't

13 give you anything with precision because I don't know. But they did go.

14 Q. After the 4th of February, you were wounded, as you say, on

15 Dobrinja I. Did you see your neighbour Fata Spahic after that?

16 A. No, no, I didn't see her for a very long time because I was sick

17 and Fata was also sick because we had to get over our injuries.

18 Q. Did you at any point speak about that day, about the day in

19 question, the 4th of February 1994?

20 A. No, we didn't. We didn't see each other frequently. It would be

21 in passing. We didn't really speak about it.

22 Q. Before the 4th of February 1994, you spoke of an incident that

23 took place in October 1992 when you were injured?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that you were wounded by a sniper that, according to you,

1 fired from Nedzarici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On that day, at what time did you go and get water?

4 A. It was 10.00, 11.00, I can't remember. I can't be absolutely

5 precise.

6 Q. That source, was it located beneath Mojmilo hill or near Mojmilo

7 hill?

8 A. No, no, it is much further, further down from Mojmilo hill. It Is

9 in a meadow near a settlement. It is a well. It is not a source, it is a

10 well that's been dug, dug up.

11 Q. How far is that settlement from Nedzarici where you went for

12 water?

13 A. I really can't tell you what the distance is. It is not very far

14 and it is not very close, so I really can't tell you. I really wouldn't

15 know. I know that that's where the firing came from.

16 Q. How often did you go to fetch water at that source?

17 A. Well, not very often. Later on, of course, when I was wounded, I

18 didn't go at all because I was always afraid.

19 Q. You said that you were injured and you went to the state hospital?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. How many days did you stay in hospital?

22 A. I did not stay in hospital. They bandaged my wounds, they took

23 me back home. A man came and changed my bandages.

24 Q. That day when you went to the state hospital when you say that you

25 were wounded, did you get a certificate or a medical certificate from a

1 doctor?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Do you have that document?

4 A. I don't know whether it is enclosed here. If it is not, then that

5 can be asked for, that can be requested.

6 Q. Do you personally have it?

7 A. No, I don't. I don't have it with me.

8 Q. Do you have the original of the medical documents of the Dobrinja

9 hospital?

10 A. I think there is a copy here.

11 Q. I am asking you whether you personally, whether you personally

12 have it, whether you, when you went to Dobrinja hospital and then you went

13 to bandages, do you have a document?

14 A. I have it but I didn't bring it with me. I don't have it on me.

15 Q. But you say you have it at home?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. On that day when you were in Dobrinja, could you tell us what the

18 weather was like that day?

19 A. Well, it was a winter day. It was sort of sunny, so-so.

20 Q. When asked by my learned colleague, you spoke about a number of

21 shells that landed. You said that the first landed behind the building

22 and that the second one landed in the immediate vicinity where you were

23 with your neighbours, and after that you said that there were many

24 explosions and that you can't determine how many shells landed?

25 A. Well, I heard either firing as I was being taken to the hospital.

1 There was always firing. I never counted it because I was really

2 frightened.

3 Q. Do you have any information, do you know, since there was a lot of

4 firing, do you know that there was -- there were battles being fought in

5 that part of town?

6 A. No, I don't know.

7 Q. Could you determine perhaps which part of town did you hear firing

8 coming from?

9 A. I was in the car. I was being driven in the car. I heard

10 detonations but I don't know from which part of town that was coming from.

11 Q. In the part of town where you lived, in that part of town, were

12 there battles being fought?

13 A. There were no battles, but there were shells on a daily basis.

14 Q. When you say, "there were shells on a daily basis," could you

15 perhaps tell us whether you were personally present and do you know, do

16 you know about people who were injured or killed as a result of the daily

17 shelling?

18 A. Yes, there were, but I don't know their names. I can't remember

19 that. Because, these years, I was mostly at home with my children, and my

20 house itself where I lived was shelled.

21 Q. When was your house shelled?

22 A. I can't remember. I can't remember the exact year or when it was,

23 but it was shelled. It was shelled twice, in fact.

24 Q. In your settlement where you lived, is there a school?

25 A. No, not in the vicinity.

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1 Q. In the part of settlement where you lived, did you see armed

2 soldiers?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Did anyone -- was anyone in your family, close family, a member of

5 the army of BH?

6 A. No, they weren't.

7 Q. When you were asked by my learned colleague, you said that you

8 heard a sound of a shell. Could you perhaps describe a little more

9 closely from which direction and at what time did you hear the sound of

10 the shell?

11 A. I don't think I can say that precisely, not from the -- not the

12 direction or the time. It was in the morning. We were down there. Which

13 exact time, which hour, I can't exactly tell you exactly.

14 Q. Could you tell us how many people were in this location where you

15 were?

16 A. No, I can't tell you that either. There were a lot of us. I

17 really didn't have time to count people and there was no need for that

18 because we were all scared and we were all just in a hurry to do our

19 business and go home. But, of course --

20 Q. How long did you spend at that location before you heard the sound

21 of the first shell?

22 A. Not even half an hour, while we were gathering, and people from

23 the nearby buildings were also coming out. They needed also to barter

24 things with us.

25 Q. When you told us that you came to that spot to exchange apples for

1 flour, did you know whether on that day there would be distribution of

2 humanitarian aid?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Could you explain how did you know that there would be flour there

5 on that day?

6 A. We were bartering with the inhabitants of Dobrinja. For instance,

7 we would take apples to them or something else, things from the garden,

8 vegetables from the garden. Perhaps they had no flour and they didn't

9 have apples, they didn't have lettuce or something, and then that is how

10 we bartered. That is what we bartered. It was with the inhabitants of

11 Dobrinja that we bartered.

12 Q. When you say that they probably had flour, could you tell us

13 whether you personally knew where they had this flour from?

14 A. Well, we didn't know. We assumed because they were near to the

15 airport, they would have it. I don't know why. But in any case, they

16 barter this flour with us. But I don't have the exact information why and

17 how they came to have the flour.

18 Q. When you say that they were bartering flour with you, could you

19 tell us that you bartered different vegetables for flour on several

20 occasions?

21 A. No, it was only on that one day when I was there on that

22 ill-fated day.

23 Q. That spot where you were standing on that plateau, could you

24 determine in relation to the place where you were standing how far away

25 were you from where the shell landed?

1 A. There was a play area and a shell fell in a corner of the area

2 where we were standing. There was -- at that time, there was some kind of

3 a wooden bench. At that time, in any case.

4 Q. Could you tell us how many persons were killed by the shell that

5 day?

6 A. I know about my neighbours. I know about three of my neighbours,

7 and four of us were injured, and there were others who were killed and

8 injured who were inhabitants of Dobrinja, but I don't know their names or

9 surnames. I just saw them injured and I also heard that there were

10 people who were killed. Because the injured were taken to the hospital

11 just like I was.

12 Q. When you say that there were others who were killed, could you

13 tell us who you heard that from and when?

14 A. Well, it was in the screams, noises, people saying there is people

15 killed, there is people injured, that kind of thing. But these

16 neighbours, I can't give you the names, the injured and the dead.

17 Q. Could you give us the names of your neighbours that were killed?

18 A. Muskija Pribinja, Fatima Sito, Seida - something like that -

19 Balicevac, and I was wounded. You know my name. Fata Spahic was also

20 injured. Then there was Azra Spahic and then there was Refija Balicevac.

21 Q. So you are saying that Muskija Pribinja was also killed?

22 A. Yes, she was.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has nothing further.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp. Does the Prosecution want to re-examine

25 the witness?

1 MR. STAMP: No, Mr. President. I have no re-examination.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

3 Mrs. R, you have answered the questions that have been put to you

4 by the parties, and the Bench has no further questions for you. That

5 means that this concludes your testimony in this Court. Please be --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- be aware that it is important for this Chamber to

8 hear the testimony of those who have been present at these times and at

9 these places, so, therefore, we thank you very much for coming to The

10 Hague. It is a long way, and I hope you have a safe journey home again.

11 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

12 courtroom.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for calling me

14 here.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

17 the...

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3685, pseudonym sheet, under seal;

19 Exhibit P2251, specialist report in B/C/S, under seal; Exhibit P2251.1,

20 English translation, under seal.

21 JUDGE ORIE: These documents are admitted into evidence.

22 May I just make one observation. First, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when

23 you assisted the Chamber in trying to avoid a waste of time, you talked

24 about the litany of little facts in front of a witness who just testified

25 that she was shot in her left and in her right leg. It would be more

1 appropriate if you would have talked about relevance, rather than of

2 "little facts." I do understand that you meant to say that these were not

3 the main facts perhaps we are concentrating upon. I take it that that was

4 your intention. But in presence of the witness, talking about little

5 facts, if she testified on these issues, that could have been avoided. I

6 am not saying that you could not make the suggestion you made, but other

7 wordings would have been more appropriate.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

9 much for this remark. What I remember saying - but perhaps I mistaken -

10 is that I said the following: Little facts or more or less little facts.

11 I believe that I may have made a nuance, but I totally agree with you, but

12 I will look at the French text and I will certainly bear in mind what you

13 said. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Even if you would have said "little facts" or "more

15 or less little facts," for a witness, these are certainly great facts.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right,

17 Mr. President. Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience. We still have to decide

20 on the admissibility of the sit-reps yesterday when Mr. Ierace examined

21 Mr. Magnusson. We prefer to deal with the matter when Mr. Ierace has

22 returned, so we said we would give a decision by tomorrow, but we would

23 rather do it in the presence of Mr. Ierace. That would be the beginning

24 of next week.

25 Is there anything else apart from that I remember that Mr.

1 Piletta-Zanin is urgent -- is waiting for some information from the

2 Prosecution side on what he calls the "grattage," and I just look at the

3 English transcript, the change of text, rubbing out parts of text, and I

4 think he referred -- was it in respect of the police reports,

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, or was it in respect of the medical records?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, in

7 relation to but, in fact, there are these medical documents or

8 quasi-medical in relation to my colleague.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you give some information on it or

10 when did you intend to do it, if you can't do it now?

11 MR. STAMP: We had intended to call a witness to explain how the

12 corrections were made. But having regard to a time schedule and the other

13 logistical considerations, it does not seem feasible to call a witness

14 just for that. However, if the court insists, we will do our best efforts

15 to bring a witness here to explain that. But I am wondering if perhaps an

16 explanation from the well of the Court or from counsel's role would

17 suffice if I could inform my friend so that I can confirm the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think we fully do understand that you are under a

19 restraint of time. I think the first thing the Defence seeks is to

20 receive what the Prosecution thinks is the explanation of how these

21 documents were handled. We already had some clues in the testimony which

22 might be possible explanations, but I think before deciding whether this

23 Chamber would like to hear in more detail and perhaps by oral testimony

24 about this phenomenon, I think the first thing Mr. Piletta-Zanin would

25 like to know is what position the Prosecution takes so they can consider

1 whether that is an acceptable position to them or not or how they could

2 proceed to verify whether this explanation is to be accepted at a later

3 stage, whether they have to call any witnesses on it. I think that is the

4 first thing the Defence seeks. So may I first leave it to the parties to

5 communicate on the issue and perhaps only afterwards both the parties, and

6 perhaps even the Chamber, might consider whether it is necessary to call

7 any witnesses or that it is not, or that some of the witnesses that will

8 be called anyhow might have knowledge about what happened.

9 So may I first invite the parties to communicate so that at least

10 you give your views on it to the Defence, and what will then happen, we

11 will see then.

12 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. We will do so.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much,

14 Mr. President, for this suggestion. Since we are talking about

15 discussions within the parties, the Prosecution, that is Mr. Stamp, could

16 they perhaps tell us now exactly when he knew about the facts that the

17 witness Richard Mole would not be able to come next week as this is

18 scheduled? This is quite important because the Defence would like -- as

19 you have stressed it yourself, Mr. President, we would like to have the

20 possibility that when we have a problem with an important witness, that we

21 are informed immediately, rather than a few minutes, few hours, or a few

22 days, before the hearing. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is -- the Chamber expressed its view that

24 if there is a major change, and that means not swapping from 10.00 to

25 11.00, but a witness who takes a lot of hours, that if he is postponed for

1 a considerable period of time, that the Chamber wants to be informed. I

2 think it is quite clear that these kind of surprises should be avoided

3 and, therefore, we want to be informed, and at the same time, we express

4 that we are aware of the importance of quick information to the other

5 party. We also expressed that we are also aware that the Prosecution is

6 not the master of the time and might not always have control over the

7 presence of witnesses.

8 So of course if Mr. Stamp would like to tell you or if there is

9 any specific procedural reason to discuss that in court now.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, absolutely not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then is there any other issue?

12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President. With your leave, the matter

13 raised by my friend could be discussed as well. However, it is a good

14 precursor to another matter which I would like to raise before the Court.

15 We are trying to move the witnesses through to give the relevant testimony

16 to the Court as rapidly as possible. And having regard to our schedule

17 for next week and problems that we are having, we have been able to

18 arrange for two witnesses who are not on the letter of the 7th of May

19 which was sent to the Defence, although there may have been a subsequent

20 letter. There is a subsequent letter of the 8th of May.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I have in front of me this moment a letter of the 8th

22 of May. That is the last one I received.

23 MR. STAMP: And that letter indicates that we expect and are in a

24 position to call the expert witness, Berko Zecevic, and also another

25 important witness, I think it is Captain, but perhaps it is Major, Jeremy

1 Hermer next week. They are available and I am not quite sure about the

2 situation in respect to Berko Zecevic, but the captain might not be easily

3 available at another time. But we did ask him to come next week to fill

4 in for other witnesses that we are having difficulties in getting for that

5 week.

6 As regards the Witness Berko Zecevic, notwithstanding the

7 directive from the Court that there be a 45-day period between the filing

8 of the report and the testimony of the witness, I would respectfully

9 invite the Court if they could adopt a flexible approach in respect to

10 that witness. Having regard to the fact that notwithstanding that the

11 report was filed on the 11th -- or the statement pursuant to Rule 94 bis

12 was filed on the 11th of April, all the documents contained in that

13 statement were served on the Defence in both English and B/C/S for -- from

14 sometime last year, and I think even before. And there had been a time

15 when that witness was here in preparation for testimony and he had been

16 listed to testify, and the documents were then in the possession of the

17 Defence.

18 I don't know if it would cause my friends any difficulties or

19 embarrassment if at this stage he was called next week, notwithstanding

20 his designation as an expert pursuant to the relevant provision. And, of

21 course, the situation in respect of Captain Hermer, is a civil expert but

22 he is not an expert and we believe that we would be entitled to call him

23 in any case.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you before asking whether Mr.

25 Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic has any observation in that respect, the

1 expert witness Berko Zecevic, you expect him to testify on issues that

2 have been dealt with before in this courtroom, if I am -- if my

3 recollection is correct.

4 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. STAMP: And there are -- there would be one or two added

7 dimensions to his testimony in respect of those events that have been

8 covered before.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- you ask for flexibility. Did you inform

10 the Defence about what dimensions that you would like to add?

11 MR. STAMP: They are included in the documents which were served

12 in the statement which forms the document to be filed pursuant to the

13 Rule, so the Defence would have been informed of what he is able to say,

14 what he can testify about, for some long time now.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. As far

18 as new dimensions are concerned, I am not certain that we have the same

19 vision of things, but that is another story. The essential problem,

20 Mr. President, is that your Chamber has a motion which was filed by the

21 Defence and that Mr. Stamp doesn't know about because he hasn't spoken

22 about. The Defence has asked your Chamber to consider that Mr. Zecevic

23 should not be called as an expert witness, for various reasons, and the

24 main reason would be this, is that the report, if we can call it that, has

25 not been done by the decision or order of your Chamber or any authority in

1 the Tribunal but it was done on the orders of the tribunal in Sarajevo, a

2 court in Sarajevo. So in order to know -- because of this, it is not

3 possible to accept that this so-called expert witness should come next

4 week.

5 However, it is true that we have had fruitful discussions with

6 Mr. Waespi yesterday or the day before yesterday, and the Defence would be

7 very happy that the second witness who is mentioned and this Captain

8 Hermer, they can come, and we will hear them with pleasure, that is

9 certain. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. President. I do

12 have to confer with General Galic. I am sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

14 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise,

16 Mr. President, but in my worry to be brief, I forgot to add something. If

17 this person should come as an expert, you know that there is a possibility

18 that the Defence has, is to bring its own experts in the Chamber. This is

19 just what General Galic has just reminded me. And then in this brief

20 delay, we will not have time to bring our own experts to be here. So if

21 there are material and technical problems, of course, and the Defence is

22 also not a master of time, and as we all know here, tempus fugit.

23 MR. STAMP: If I may, with your leave --

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask one additional question to

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin before I give the floor to you, Mr. Stamp.

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have seen your written submissions to the

2 Chamber indicating that if a report or a statement of an expert is not

3 made on request of the OTP or of the Chamber, that it could not qualify as

4 a statement of an expert under Rule 94 bis.

5 Could you please indicate what makes you believe that the words,

6 the full statement, of any expert witness to be called by a party would

7 require that the statement is made on behalf of one of the parties?

8 That's my first question. So where do you -- how do you -- what is the

9 reasoning behind this interpretation Rule of 94 bis? And the second

10 question is whether there is any case law in this Tribunal you would rely

11 upon for this interpretation.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. But

13 because I am not directly in charge of this problem and Madam Pilipovic

14 is, she will do it for me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I usually address the one who is standing at this

16 moment, and you are both standing. So, Ms. Pilipovic please.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in our submission, we

18 informed the Chamber that the finding that my learned colleagues are

19 relying upon is the one of Mr. Berko Zecevic, however, it is not the one

20 written by Mr. Berko Zecevic - I think that this is what we wrote in our

21 submission - this is a report made at the request of the court in

22 Sarajevo, and it was written by three experts. So, first of all, we have

23 no consent of the other two experts for that report. I don't have their

24 names right in front of me, but these other two experts wrote the report

25 together with Mr. Zecevic, and also in a case before this Tribunal, the

1 case Kunarac.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If I may interrupt you, that would be seen as a

3 problem as well, but a different problem from the one I just mentioned.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I didn't

5 quite follow your question since it was addressed to my colleague. But I

6 believe that your question was: Why is it that we believe that the

7 conditions needed for 94 bis were not satisfied when we say that the

8 expert witness report needs to be submitted in accordance with the Rule 94

9 bis. I believe that that was your question, why does the Defence

10 believe --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was my question. My first question was:

12 What is the basis for the interpretation that Rule 94 bis would not apply

13 if the statement or report of an expert witness is made on the request of

14 some other authority, judicial or other authority, so not on the request

15 of the OTP or one of the Chambers of this -- one of the Judges of this

16 Tribunal.

17 That was my specific question, and as far as I understand you, you

18 raised the issue whether you can use the report of an expert witness or a

19 statement of an expert witness if it is signed and drafted not by one

20 expert but by more of them. That is an issue as well. So I take it that

21 you -- you are informing us about other objections than those I just

22 mentioned. I just mentioned the fact that on whose request the report was

23 made. You now added another issue.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The position of

25 the Defence regarding whose -- who was the authority that ordered this

1 report is supported by Rule 94 bis. That says that the opposing party

2 shall file a notice indicating whether it accepts the expert witness

3 statement, and so on, and who the ordering authority is. So this is on

4 what we base our position.

5 Your Honour, well, I have just stated our position to you and I

6 wanted to confer with my colleague since we -- we did not envisage that we

7 would be discussing about this question today. So perhaps we don't have

8 all of the information available right now. But the discussion between

9 myself and my colleague was that -- centred around the fact that we would

10 meet with the other side and discuss this matter further.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, of course, if there would be further

12 discussions. Let me just confer with my colleagues.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties would discuss the matter, the Chamber

15 would be able to hear the results of it and I would then suggest that it

16 could be, for example, at the 11.00, if that would be enough time. If

17 not, we would like to be informed about it at 11.00. So then perhaps,

18 unless you would like to make any observations at this very time, Mr.

19 Stamp, or that you...

20 MR. STAMP: There is one observation. I don't think it is

21 necessary here to say too much in respect to the motion filed. The real

22 issue is whether or not an expert may refer to another document, whether

23 he wrote it or someone else has wrote it, and adopt as his own opinion

24 something which is expressed in it. And I think it happens very

25 frequently, that is something that experts do, refer to other writings or

1 other comments by other experts and adopt it for the purpose of assisting

2 the Tribunal. The real issue here, however, is the one raised last. If,

3 as I understand it, the Court did order that the Defence are entitled to

4 have their expert here when our expert testifies, then if my friends

5 cannot have an expert here in time, then we would not be pressing to call

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is very important.

8 MR. STAMP: That would end the debate. However, there is another

9 issue which perhaps our team leader may want to address as to the notice

10 that we should give to the Defence for them to get their expert here at

11 the period of notice. I don't know if the seven-day directive that had

12 been issued earlier would be too long now that we are moving into the last

13 couple months of the case and we would have to be squeezing various

14 witnesses here from a variety of countries in the world and on short

15 notice.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the -- may I say the time table the

17 Chamber gave in respect of expert witnesses is such that we could expect

18 the Defence to prepare for their expert witnesses to be available within a

19 certain time limit. So of course it is always better if the parties

20 already communicated that we intend to call this expert witness, please

21 prepare for the presence of your own expert witness. But this is, I am

22 afraid, a bit too much of a surprise. The mere availability of the expert

23 report, of course, does not indicate to the Defence approximately when

24 they will have to take care that their expert would be available to

25 attend. And of course, the presence of the expert witness from the

1 Defence is of importance for the cross-examination. It is for sure that,

2 although counsel may be very experienced, sometimes they need the

3 assistance of an expert in order to put the right questions in

4 cross-examination to an expert of the other party.

5 Yes.

6 MR. STAMP: So the position is that if the Defence cannot make

7 that arrangement to get their expert, we would not be pressing to call

8 Berko Zecevic, and that would foreclose the discussion on that issue.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would that have been the matter you would like to

10 discuss with the Prosecution?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. That is one of the

12 facts, Mr. President. But in fact, the discussion should be considered as

13 closed, considering that in any case, if this person would be admitted as

14 expert, our expert should be here to hear this discussion. So in any

15 case --

16 JUDGE ORIE: And you say there is no possibility the Defence

17 could arrange the presence of its -- I mean, just if we would allow

18 Mr. Zecevic to be examined as an expert witness.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is practically impossible

20 partly because of my personal schedule, and I apologise for

21 that, but we have only been informed about it yesterday and today, and

22 certainly because in relation to this person in question.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, having heard both parties, the Chamber

25 invites the Prosecution to reschedule the appearance of Mr. Zecevic,

1 whether it will be as a witness or as an expert witness.

2 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. As it pleases the Court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any other changes in the schedule for next

4 week?

5 MR. STAMP: None that I am able to advise about at this point.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I do think the Defence has agreed as far as

7 Mr. Hermer is concerned.

8 Yes, I see no objections, so I take it that my understanding was

9 correct.

10 MR. STAMP: The last issue, if I may raise it --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we are talking about

13 Captain Hermer, is that correct?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. STAMP: If I may just formally tender to the Court through the

16 Registrar the statements of the witness Bajram Sopi, redacted as ordered

17 by the Court, and both the statement of Hamdija Cavic with the attachment,

18 in the form as directed by the Court, and both of them are in English and

19 B/C/S.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The statement of Bajram Sopi P3663.B. The

22 statement of Hamdija Cavic, P3663A.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they are admitted into evidence, and we all know

24 there is still an appeal pending on the admission into evidence of these

25 statements.

1 Then perhaps the last question to you -- unless you have any

2 other, Ms. Pilipovic, you made me curious. When I asked you about case

3 law, you were about to say something about a decision in the Kunarac case.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is right, Your Honour.

5 I have been thinking about that because we had a similar problem in the

6 Kunarac case and at that time our friends from the Prosecution wanted

7 to introduce, as an expert statement, a statement that an expert gave in

8 another case. And the Trial Chamber in Kunarac decided that it was

9 unacceptable. And in accordance with the Rules in force then, it was

10 necessary for an expert to give a full new report, either at the request

11 of one of the parties or at the request of the Trial Chamber. And I can

12 verify the exact wording of that decision. It is dated -- it goes back to

13 1999, and it was a decision of the Trial Chamber regarding the

14 admissibility of the report by Mrs. Klerin given in another case. The

15 Trial Chamber did not accept --

16 JUDGE ORIE: K-l-e-r-i-n?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is Professor Klerin. I think we will be

19 able to retrieve that decision. Thank you very much for your assistance.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If there is anything else to be raised at this very

22 moment? If not, we will adjourn until next Monday. Madam Registrar, that

23 would be in the afternoon, at a quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

25 10.30 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

1 the 13th day of May, 2002, at 1.45 p.m.

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