1 Thursday 16 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.49 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you ready to resume the cross-examination
10 of Mr. Hermer?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I am.
12 Although you know that normally you remind the witness that he is still
13 under oath, under solemn declaration.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what I intended to do, but thank you for
15 assisting me.
16 May I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
17 declaration you made yesterday? It might be unnecessary, but I would
18 still like to remind you.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, another thing I very often do is to indicate
20 how much time the examination in chief has taken. It is one hour and 42
21 minutes. Please proceed.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, so much.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin [Continued]
24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. I will continue my cross-examination in French and I will also
2 listen on both channels so that I can have everything we need. Here we
4 Witness, I am going to ask you to answer as briefly as possible
5 because everyone here would like to save as much time as possible. So if
6 I am interrupting you during your answer, it is not because I am being
7 rude, but because -- in order to save time. I am sure you will
9 Witness, in relation to your testimony yesterday on page 33, you
10 spoke of some agreements that the parties reached in relation to Mount
11 Igman. Could you, in a few words, tell us what was that about?
12 A. Yes. The agreement was reached, was brokered, if you like, by
13 UNPROFOR, and was designed to bring about some resolution over the area of
14 ground known as Mount Igman. The agreement, as I understood it, was to
15 allow a United Nations force to stay permanently and police the Igman
16 area, thus preventing that area being fully controlled by either side in
17 the conflict, and thus hopefully preventing further conflicts in that
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. If we are talking about kind of security
20 corridor; is that what the idea was behind it?
21 A. A security corridor would be one way of describing it. That would
22 be apt, yes.
23 Q. Thank you for your answer. I will come back to it. I would like
24 to go into another line of questioning now.
25 We have testimony, Major, that is saying quite often that there
1 was -- there were weapons, mobile artillery weapons, artillery means in
2 Sarajevo. For instance, there was small lorries or trucks which were used
3 to transport mortars or even private vehicles that were used for this
4 purpose. Have you, with your own eyes, seen such means?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what you saw, briefly, and when and
8 A. My experience of such things, I could not put a specific date on
9 that, I am afraid. These experiences occurred throughout my time. The
10 kind of things which I witnessed personally, to which I believe you are
11 alluding, were vehicles such as civilian cars, for example, Volkswagens,
12 that would have improvised weapon systems in the vehicles. The vehicles
13 would be significantly modified to allow this to take place. I saw what
14 would essentially be considered to be civilian, rather than military,
15 trucks being used to transport weapons of a light nature, be it small
16 mortars or medium mortars. And also one vehicle which was prominent in
17 Sarajevo was what I would term a "flat bed" or flat back" lorry on which
18 was mounted heavy machine-guns.
19 Q. And very briefly, what kind of machine-gun, please?
20 A. A heavy machine-gun, 12.7 calibre or larger.
21 Q. Thank you for your answer.
22 You spoke earlier of several vehicles, civilian vehicles, that
23 were modified in order to make them into military vehicles. Could you
24 tell us something about their number, how many units would that be? How
25 many vehicles, rather?
1 A. I can recall in terms of civilian vehicles, family saloon car, for
2 example, probably seeing personally two or three of these vehicles which
3 had been modified with armour, plating, windows removed and weapons
5 Q. Thank you, Witness.
6 I am not going on to another line of questioning and this is in
7 relation to the answers that you have already given. You said, Witness,
8 that you were in contact with the HQ in Lukavica with an ordinary civilian
9 telephone line. Could you confirm that?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you confirm, if this was the case, that the
12 military parties that were present and confronting each other in Sarajevo,
13 were they able to use those civilian telephone lines for military
15 A. I have no personal knowledge of that, no.
16 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
17 Now, sir, yesterday you said that you briefly saw on two occasions
18 General Galic, page 49 line 5. Could you confirm that in fact you never
19 discussed with him directly on any subject matter?
20 A. As my memory serves me, no, I never had any detailed discussion.
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your answer.
22 You also said, 48.20, that the offices of Major Indjic, who later
23 became colonel, were on the first floor; is that what you can confirm for
24 us now?
25 A. If I said the first floor, I meant the ground floor.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer.
2 Sir, you said in relation to Major Indjic that he was working for
3 the Sarajevo Romanija headquarters. What are the factual elements that
4 would help you to assume -- not to assume this, but to know this, as a
6 A. As I remember from yesterday, that was, in fact, an assumption,
7 based on my experience and the way in which Major Indjic was introduced to
8 me at the outset of our working relationship.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So you are confirming that this is just an interpretation on your
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, on several occasions, on page 40, line 21,
15 you said that when there were shots that were being fired onto the city,
16 there were apparently no military targets that were targeted. You said:
17 "There was no military target present." That is a quote.
18 Sir, my question is the following: In relation to what you said,
19 could you categorically exclude that on the locations that you were
20 referring to, there were no mobile targets like the ones that you just
21 described for us?
22 A. No, I cannot.
23 Q. Thank you for your answer.
24 So if I understand you correctly, there is a possibility, a
25 theoretical possibility, that there were or there was a mobile military
1 target at a location that you described as being a civilian target or a
2 civilian location?
3 A. That is possible, yes.
4 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
5 Yesterday, asked by our learned colleagues by the Prosecution, you
6 said that the incident reports on outgoing and incoming were about 1 to
7 100. On which base -- on what are you basing this, this percentage, this
8 relation, this ratio?
9 A. The ratio is a pure numerical one based on the number of incident
10 reports relating specifically to impacts in the city versus impacts
11 outside the city, incidents.
12 Q. And to ask you another question, did you yourself, on the basis of
13 the Sit-Reps or Inc-Reps, did you ever make that calculation of a ratio?
14 Have you ever done such calculation yourself?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Could you indicate to us on the basis of which, which period and
17 which report exactly?
18 A. I could not give you a specific report, but the calculation was
19 something which I was doing regularly for use in briefings within the PTT
20 building. I never, to my knowledge, formally articulated that on paper or
21 reported it.
22 Q. Very well. I am going to interrupt you. Thank you for your
23 answer. But I remember that what you said last time - that is yesterday -
24 that it was a report about 1 to 2 per cent. Is that what you remember as
1 A. That would be the ratio I would conclude after doing my mental
3 Q. Thank you very much. I am going to come back to another point
4 now. The incident that you referred to in the area of Holiday Inn, do you
5 remember the moment during the examination of yesterday?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, first of all, you said in relation to the
8 shots that you were able to see on the facade of a building, that there
9 were some flashes. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. You also said that on the basis of your experience and of your
12 knowledge of the field and the maps that you made, you were able to locate
13 almost with certainty that the shots were coming from a building which was
14 under Serb control. Is that what happened?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Thank you for your answer.
17 Since you did it on the basis of maps, what was the street where
18 this building was located, please?
19 A. I do not know the name of the street.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your answer.
21 Sir, I asked you yesterday about your training and your military
22 qualifications, and you answered and I thank you for it. Now, sir, would
23 you agree with me if you considered that the physical location where the
24 supreme commander of an army is, in the time of war, a legitimate military
1 A. Definitely, yes.
2 Q. Thank you for your "definitely." Now, is it true that the
3 Presidency was such a location?
4 A. As I understand it, yes, it was.
5 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
6 Sir, what is the distance between the Holiday Inn and the
7 Presidency building?
8 A. From memory, I would say in the region of 300 metres.
9 Q. Isn't it true that the Presidency building is located almost
10 opposite the Holiday Inn?
11 A. Not almost opposite, no. Close to, but not almost opposite, in my
13 Q. Do you think that this distance was a lot shorter than that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Fine. Sir, do you know that strategic meetings were taking place
16 on the day of the incident -- incident in that building?
17 A. I have no knowledge of that.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, do you know that on the day of the incident,
19 there were combats or combat activities?
20 A. Where specifically?
21 Q. [In English] In and around Sarajevo.
22 A. Yes, there were.
23 Q. Thank you. Sir, in relation to your answer, could you
24 categorically exclude the possibility that troop movement were about to
25 intervene or were intervening at that moment in the area of those shots,
1 and at the time, you didn't know anything about that?
2 A. Yes, I can categorically say that, in the area of those shots,
3 there was no military activity happening or about to happen.
4 Q. How could you, sir, exclude this possibility if you did not know
5 that a meeting was going to take place in these buildings, a strategic
6 meeting, if certain military personnel, in uniforms or not, were supposed
7 to be there at that time, for instance?
8 A. The subject of the fire, as we discussed yesterday, was not
9 military. There was no indication --
10 Q. Now I am going to interrupt you. Could you please answer my
11 question? My question was the following: How could you exclude the
12 possibility of what I have just indicated to you?
13 A. I couldn't.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. You also said, and this is page 59, line 1 and
15 the following one, you said that a little before this incident, as far as
16 you know, there was no military target in that area. How can you be so
17 sure of that?
18 A. Based on the investigations of the -- my colleagues who were there
19 on the scene shortly after it had commenced.
20 Q. Very well. Sir, do you know and -- do you know, sir, if in the
21 area of the Holiday Inn there was -- there were some elements that
22 belonged to elite units of the Muslim army, that is, the snipers, and that
23 they were about to regroup?
24 A. I have no knowledge of that.
25 Q. Sir, you said earlier that you were not able to know where the
1 mobile military targets were like the ones you spoke about. Could you
2 exclude the possibility that at the time of the incident, just before
3 it, that there was precisely such a mobile military target in that area?
4 A. No, I cannot.
5 Q. Thank you for your answer. You spoke of sniper alley, or what was
6 called the sniper alley, and you said that it was located along government
7 buildings. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes I do.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. These government buildings, do you also mean the
10 Presidency by those buildings?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. That is, practically, theoretically, militarily, that was the
13 residency of the supreme commander of the army?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Thank you. Sir, as far as you know, and in your capacity as a
16 professional soldier that you are, could you confirm that this is the
17 case: That this location of the Presidency was frequently used for
18 meetings between military personnel?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, a technical question also and I am going to
21 call on your experience here. You spoke yesterday about very young people
22 who were armed and below the age of 16, and that they were bearing rifles,
23 bearing arms. Do you remember that?
24 A. I don't think I used the expression "bearing arms" yesterday.
25 Q. I think this was my expression, but you were talking about very
1 young people who were very near military situations and military
2 locations. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes I do.
4 Q. All right. What I will go back to that question a bit later.
5 Now, as far as the armed people are concerned, can you confirm for
6 us -- you can't hear me? [In English] I can't do anything for you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I can't hear the
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?
10 THE WITNESS: Only just.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear it now? Is it better?
12 THE WITNESS: I can hear it but not good.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Can you hear me now?
14 THE WITNESS: I can hear you.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?
16 THE WITNESS: I can. It is adequate.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I will listen for
20 a while to the English booth in order to see whether the sound quality is
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Witness, I apologise for this, but let us go back to what we had
24 been talking before. Can you please tell me, based on your experience,
25 how many armed people were there in the town of Sarajevo? I mean, the
1 Muslim army here, the so-called Muslim army.
2 A. This is a bit difficult to answer that question simply because
3 there were more men able to bear weapons than there were weapons in
4 existence. The figure, as I remember, that we were working to as a broad
5 figure was that approximately 10.000 men could bear arms in the city at
6 any one time.
7 Q. When you say, "10.000 men able to bear arms" you most probably
8 believe that those people were armed at the same time?
9 A. What I believe is that there was the ability to -- for 10.000 men
10 to carry arms simultaneously, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, let me tell you that according to some
12 figures, there were about 50.000 people who were considered to be
13 soldiers, albeit there were fewer weapons, individual weapons, that could
14 have been distributed to them. Would this figure be acceptable to you?
15 A. I have no means of verifying that, but based upon the number of
16 men I witnessed of soldiering age, I would say that would be a reasonable
17 figure, yes.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer. I will go to my next
19 question, sir.
20 Can you please tell us briefly, were there any women in the army?
21 A. Yes, there were.
22 Q. In active service?
23 A. Certainly, yes.
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge of numerical values for those units?
25 A. If you mean do I know how many women were serving, the answer is
1 no, but the ratio of men to women was very small, or rather women to men.
2 It was a very small percentage of females that appeared to be serving.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you for this answer, sir.
4 I would go back to some of the things you mentioned during your
5 testimony specifically concerning the firing from DSA, AAA; I mean the
6 anti-aircraft fire artillery. You have told us that these weapons were
7 used in such a way as to -- to be used in the ground mode. Can you
8 confirm that very frequently these were direct hits?
9 A. I am sorry, direct hits, do you mean --
10 Q. [In English] I mean we use it in the direct way.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. [In English] Thanks.
13 [Interpretation] Can you then tell us, please, or can you confirm
14 for us, when this ammunition from the anti-aircraft artillery is used in
15 the direct way, that it practically cannot be used with the detonator or
16 ignition system which has to do with the height of the rocket?
17 A. That -- as I understand it, that is correct, yes.
18 Q. Thank you for that answer, sir.
19 Now, I will go back to another element of your testimony. We will
20 now turn to one of your lunches, meals, at the PTT building when you were
21 able to witness the attack on the Zuc Mount. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness.
24 Now, can you please confirm by saying "yes" or "no" that you
25 watched only that area and that you only saw the area of the impact?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. But you can't tell us anything regarding the
3 range of that shot? You can't tell us anything about the distance where
4 this shot originated? Here I am interested in your personal observation,
5 not in the reports that you might have read about it.
6 A. No, I cannot tell you.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, sir, I have a technical question
8 regarding your training, your education. Can you tell us, when we speak
9 about a distance of 1 vertical kilometre -- I am sorry, horizontal
10 distance, can you tell us what is 10 degrees? What is it in practical
11 terms, what height are we talking about, about 10-degree elevation? I am
12 afraid you did not understand my question. Shall I repeat it for you?
13 A. No, I understand. My difficulty here is that in the British
14 forces we do not work in degrees, we work in mils.
15 Q. Can you approximate? Can you make this conversion and switch from
16 degrees to mils? Sir, if I tell you that if we are speaking about
17 vertical elevations, that is approximately 250 metres, would that seem
18 right to you, approximately?
19 A. I was working on about 200, but, yes.
20 Q. Perfect. Thank you. So we are speaking about the same subject.
21 Thank you for your reply. Now, sir, I have the following question: Can
22 you tell us whether the UN forces, whose member you were, adjusted their
24 A. Do you mean synchronized?
25 Q. That is exactly what I was interested in.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you stated that you were sure about the
3 origin of firing because there was a matter of one or two seconds at the
4 time. However, you can't be certain that your watches showed identical
5 time. Can you be certain of that?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 But in order for everything to be clear, when you say, "that is
9 correct," that means, no, you are not sure, you cannot be sure about that;
10 is that right?
11 A. I cannot be sure that is right.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness.
13 Can you be certain, sir -- so my question is: Can you be certain,
14 can you categorically confirm that in that attack which you witnessed,
15 there was no troop movement, be it the advancement of troops or retreat,
16 with respect to a certain combat line?
17 A. No, I cannot state categorically.
18 Q. Thank you. Now I will continue with this line of questioning.
19 Sir, you will agree with me if I say that we cannot exclude either an
20 error in elevation or any military target for which you might not know,
21 might not have known at the time?
22 A. No, we cannot exclude that.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you, sir.
1 Now, I will switch to another topic. I just have to check what
2 the time is since the Chamber is very sensitive to that.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can you tell us
4 how much time we have?
5 JUDGE ORIE: When starting this afternoon, you used 37 minutes. I
6 have to add the time. That is from -- let me just have a look, 14.50
7 until -- it is 14 minutes. You used 77 minutes at this moment, that is
8 one hour and 17 minutes, as far as I can see, and there would be a
9 remainder of 25 minutes. So there would be 25 minutes left. But you know
10 you don't have to use them.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I try to do my best, sir. [Interpretation]
12 Shall I continue, Mr. President?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one thing, regarding the
15 time schedule. Can you tell us when do you envision for us to have a
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is appropriate to have the break shortly after
18 4.00, so that is after you concluded the cross-examination which I expect
19 you to conclude within some 25 minutes, that is 5 minutes to 4.00.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will not disappoint you,
21 Mr. President.
22 Q. Now, Witness, let us continue with my questions for you. Thank
23 you for your previous answer.
24 Can you tell me, does the word "oxygen" mean anything to you?
25 A. I understand what oxygen is.
1 Q. Does the term "Operation Oxygen" mean anything to you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Witness, have you never heard of an operation which we called
4 here "Operation Oxygen" during which the oxygen bottles were allegedly
5 filled with gunpowder and apparently transported by the members of an UN
6 organisation, and apparently transported to a hospital in Sarajevo?
7 A. I have heard it as a sort of apocryphal story, but I've never
8 heard it referred to as "Operation Oxygen," no.
9 Q. All right. Now let us forget about this term. But can you tell
10 me, when did you hear of this operation and where?
11 A. I cannot specifically remember when I first encountered this
12 story. It is something which you could say has gone down in UN folklore
13 and is often recounted. I've heard it recounted a number of times, or
14 something similar.
15 Q. Sir, you heard that from other high ranking officers; isn't that
17 A. I am sure I heard the story in a bar, and I normally drink with
18 officers of my own rank.
19 Q. Sir, have you ever heard stories about the same kind of an
20 operation that was called --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "Container."
23 Q. "Operation Containers."
24 A. No, I have not heard of an operation referred to by that name. If
25 you were to elaborate, I might know more.
1 Q. Well, you will probably ascribe it to the UN folklore once again.
2 However, this was an operation in which allegedly trucks were modified in
3 order to be able to conduct a more or less clandestine transport of
5 A. I cannot say I have specifically heard of that incident, no.
6 Q. Witness, your response surprises me. You told me that you did not
7 hear specifically of it, but did you hear anything relating to this type
8 of incident, to a similar type of event or something like this?
9 A. I would like to explain that during my time in Sarajevo, there
10 were many stories like this which were in the public domain. Both sides
11 were -- warring factions, would recount such tales, as would unreliable
12 sources within the UN, and I have since heard other similar stories, but I
13 have no personal experience of this.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 Now I will turn to another line of questions. We will go back
16 to the Mount Igman once again.
17 Do you know whether at one point the forces of General Seferovic
18 were able to pass through what we used to call security corridor just a
19 while ago, in order to engage in military operations on the other side of
20 Mount Igman and consequently commit certain crimes?
21 A. With regard to the first part of your question, my answer is that
22 logically and the evidence pointed to the fact that there was indeed
23 crossing of this area as certain personalities would appear, both outside
24 and inside Sarajevo, outside beyond the UN safe corridor, which would
25 suggest strongly that there had been some transgression of that area.
1 With regard to the last part, I cannot say whether they were consequently
2 able to commit certain crimes.
3 Q. Witness, mea culpa. I think I misstated the name. I meant
4 Mr. Sefer Halilovic, that is the person I meant, and does this change your
5 answer in any way?
6 A. No, it doesn't change my answer.
7 Q. Thank you. Now we will remain on the same topic. Do you know of
8 a tunnel between Dobrinja and Butmir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you confirm for us, sir, that this tunnel was equally used for
11 transporting ammunition and weapons into the city?
12 A. I cannot personally confirm that, although it would seem likely.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know, sir, whether
14 prisoners, maybe prisoner of war, Serb POWs, were used for digging this
16 A. I have no knowledge of that.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
18 You spoke to us about your knowledge of the city of Sarajevo. And
19 could you now tell us where the following places are: The Main Staff of
20 MUP or the MUP command?
21 A. No, I cannot remember the location of that headquarters.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, sir, where the 101st, 102nd, and
23 105th brigades or, rather, their commands were located? Precisely.
24 A. No, not precisely.
25 Q. Sir, now, I am not asking these questions -- I am not referring
1 only to brigades, but to battalions as well, but if you do not know where
2 the brigades were, then I suppose you don't know where the commands of
3 battalions or lower units were either. Is that right?
4 A. The information I was receiving as the operations officer and the
5 MIO, was, if you like, paper information. The observation post staff were
6 the men who would daily visit these locations and knew specifically where
7 they were. So, without a map, it would be more difficult for me.
8 Q. I am speaking of your personal knowledge.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. And on the other hand, when for example, a shell
11 falls, a random one, how can you categorically, definitely, exclude the
12 possibility that this shell was intended for a very particular specific
13 military target which was maybe located in a residential building,
14 however, in a building where there was a command or headquarters or some
15 kind of a military target?
16 A. It is impossible to categorically definitely exclude that.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 Now, Witness, I would like to go back to some other topics. I
19 will -- let me address the registrar and Mr. President.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to give to the
21 witness document D108, which was used before, and I think that all of us
22 have it. We will use this document in a little bit. And now I would like
23 to focus on some general questions.
24 Q. Sir, yesterday you answered to one of my questions yesterday by
25 saying that you also had some history training, theoretical training,
1 during your education; isn't that so?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 We, all of us, know what trench warfare is. Please correct me if
5 I'm mistaken, but please tell me, is it true that this type of warfare was
6 led between 1915 and 1917 before the Brest Litovsk agreement?
7 A. If you are referring to the First World War, the conflict between
8 allies in Germany, then yes, it was.
9 Q. It was the only possible reference, isn't it? Now, tell me, sir,
10 regarding this type of warfare, is it true that two armies dug in there
11 and refrained from advancement or trying to conquer new territories? Now
12 I am referring to the front in northern France, practically in Belgium.
13 A. I am sorry, I don't understand the question you are asking.
14 Q. We are referring to the bois des dames. Is it true in this type
15 of situation, the French army specifically and the German army, were dug
16 in, in the trenches, and there were observing each other, they were
17 shelling each other, but there were not attempting to gain terrain, to
18 gain ground?
19 A. It was certainly a classic war of attrition but, ultimately, the
20 aim was to gain ground, yes. The physical circumstances made that very
22 Q. So, practically speaking, these two armies, for two years were
23 shelling each other without gaining any ground, consequently?
24 A. There were minor gains and losses, but in general terms, no, you
25 are right.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 Sir, if we follow this hypothesis, the shooting from these mined
3 trenches, from trench to trench, this was something that was perfectly
4 acceptable in the art of war?
5 A. When there are purely combatants involved, yes.
6 Q. Thank you very much for your answer, Witness.
7 Sir, I would like to go back to some other historical questions.
8 As a British officer, I am sure you will be able to answer. 1913, 14, 15,
9 February, 1945, does that mean anything to you?
10 A. 1913, 1914, and 1915 and February 1945, are they the dates we
11 are --
12 Q. No. It is the 13th, the 14th and 15th of February.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. 1945
14 A. Perhaps my history is escaping me. We were well into the Allied
15 advance through Europe at that time, approaching the Rhine, as I recall.
16 Q. Okay, and Bomber Harris?
17 A. Yes, I apologise. Yes, the dam busters, Bomber Harris and the
18 Allied daylight bombing raids on Germany and the German industrial power
20 Q. When you are talking about industrial power, you are talking about
21 the city of Dresden, right?
22 A. Dresden in particular is an example which is used to identify that
23 period, yes.
24 Q. And the campaign of the 13th, 14th, and 15th of February, 1945, he
25 was targeting specifically Dresden, do you know how many victims there
1 were, how many casualties?
2 A. I don't know how many, but I know it was a significant number of
3 civilians that were killed.
4 Q. Is it true that we are talking about hundreds of thousands of
5 people who died, burned alive?
6 A. Certainly many thousands.
7 Q. And for the first time in history, what was used was a huge use of
8 inflammable bombs, incendiary bombs?
9 A. That is incorrect. They were used primarily on London in 1941,
10 prior to that.
11 Q. I said in such -- on such a vast scale, but that doesn't change
12 the question. There were incendiary bombs that were used, is that
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. The question is important. I have to ask you. Historians
16 normally say that there were no large military important targets in
17 Dresden. Now, could you confirm that?
18 A. Certainly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I've been giving my learned colleague
21 a bit of leeway here but I am wondering if we have perhaps crossed into
22 the realm of irrelevance at this point.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute? I remember, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
24 that earlier you have asked similar questions to witnesses, and I am not
25 going to disclose to this witness what one of your last questions was,
1 but is there any dispute about it before --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
3 whether the debate is the correct term to use or "dispute," sorry. But I
4 am trying to find out, this is what happened few years ago and this is
5 just to bring it to the witness that there was a moral condemnation of the
6 fact or perhaps bring it to recognise this, and I believe that this is
7 very important and it is relevant for the case that interests us, and that
8 is Sarajevo.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But is that in dispute between the parties? I mean,
10 the rather personal -- I take it it is just one or two more questions and
11 it is your time. We are three minutes off from the time limit. So if you
12 want to use it that way, I don't know whether it is in dispute,
13 Mr. Mundis, whether this has led to any Prosecution, that is -- I didn't
14 want to disclose one of the questions to come, but --
15 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly not in dispute, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But if you want to use your remaining time this way,
17 I will even give you the one minute extra that I just took.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed. I
19 am just going to confer for a brief while.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I apologise, sir. I am going to come back to what I was saying.
23 Since I have one minute extra, I am going to try not to use it. Now, sir,
24 could you tell us, as far as you know, as an officer and a man of honour,
25 if any measure was ever taken by anyone who may have taken part or ordered
1 -- taken against anyone who may have taken or ordered these bombardments
2 of Dresden? Was anything ever taken against these people who did that to
4 A. To my knowledge, no.
5 Q. Could you tell us why?
6 A. A combination of reasons, I understand. One, in that it helped to
7 secure an Allied victory, which gave it legitimacy as an act, and
8 secondly, that as a collective target, albeit, a civilian target, it was
9 seen as a legitimate means to justify an end.
10 Q. I presume the end justified the means.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
16 Q. Major Hermer, I would like to return to the issue that arose
17 immediately prior to the recess last evening and, namely, the use of or
18 the fact that you saw young people close to the front lines.
19 Yesterday, you indicated that you saw young people around military
20 positions. Do you recall saying that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Do you know what specific military positions or what -- or at what
23 locations these military positions were?
24 A. Young people around military positions was a common feature of
25 that conflict on both sides of the front line. We could be here all day
1 if I give you a list of areas where it occurred.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say that it was widespread on both sides of
3 the lines?
4 A. Yes, it would.
5 Q. Do you recall specifically on how many occasions or approximately
6 how many occasions you saw children with weapons?
7 A. Holding weapons or bearing arms?
8 Q. Let's start with holding weapons.
9 A. Infrequently. A few times, between 5 and 10 times, perhaps.
10 Q. And bearing arms?
11 A. Never. I never witnessed children bearing arms in a military
12 fashion. Young teenagers, yes, but children, no.
13 Q. What do you mean when you say "bearing arms in a military
14 fashion"? What does that mean?
15 A. It means that -- by that I am implying that an individual would
16 have ownership of a weapon and would be prepared to use it in an offensive
17 or defensive manner.
18 Q. Do you recall what types of weapons you saw young people carrying?
19 A. Generally, small arms, rifles, assault rifles, Kalashnikovs.
20 Q. Do you recall what you saw these children or young people doing
21 with these weapons?
22 A. Playing or cleaning the weapons. Playing with or cleaning the
24 Q. Based on what you saw, are you able to say whether the weapons
25 were the young people's weapons or did they belong to someone else?
1 A. In all instances, I am fairly certain that these weapons did not
2 belong to these children.
3 Q. Did you ever see children around military positions during times
4 when there was active combat?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. At the time, do you recall whether any of these young people were
7 actually carrying weapons at the time of that combat?
8 A. No, my recollection of young people with weapons was invariably
9 when there was a quiet period and administration and relaxation was being
10 carried out.
11 Q. Did you ever hear or receive reports of children becoming
12 casualties by being close to military positions?
13 A. Yes, but you also have to consider that many military positions
14 were close to areas inhabited by children, on both sides.
15 Q. Can you provide any specific examples?
16 A. I would say certainly the areas of Dobrinja and the southern area
17 of the front line from Lukavica along towards Grbavica. Those areas were
18 heavily inhabited and also extensively fought over.
19 Q. Do you recall receiving or hearing about reports of children
20 becoming casualties while carrying weapons?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I am going to move on to a subject that was brought up today and
23 mainly that being, as you have described it, "mobile military targets."
24 Do you recall or do you have any approximate idea as to the number
25 of these mobile military targets, as you have described them?
1 A. I am sorry, do you mean across the conflict or in one specific
3 Q. Let's focus on inside the city of Sarajevo during the five months
4 that you were in the PTT building.
5 A. I don't know how many, as I think I said earlier. I saw two or
6 three of these type of vehicles personally and I have reports of others,
7 so you have to bear in mind that there were a few vehicles running in the
8 city at that time, due to a lack of fuel. Those which were may well have
9 been used.
10 Q. During the five months that you were posted and quartered in the
11 PTT building, how frequently would you be out on the streets of Sarajevo,
12 either travelling from OP to OP or otherwise out on the streets?
13 A. As far as possible, daily.
14 Q. And during this five-month period, you only witnessed mobile
15 military targets on two or three occasions, you personally?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Thank you, Major Hermer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution has no further questions, Mr.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
21 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.
22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yesterday, you said that on a number of
25 occasions, there were shells landing close to the OP sites. My
1 understanding is that the OP sites were close to the military sites, to,
2 well, gun sites or something like that. Is that true?
3 A. In most instances, they were fairly near to either the
4 confrontation line or military installations, yes.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions to you.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like you, if you could
8 tell me, when you spoke yesterday of complaints that you presented to
9 Major Indjic, you spoke of some complaints that were to do with shooting
10 that was targeting the UNPROFOR. Did you have an occasion to tell him
11 about the shooting that was targeting civilians?
12 A. Yes, I did, on a number of occasions.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And if I understand correctly,
14 you said that at least as far as the sniping activities were concerned,
15 that following your complaints, the shooting stopped, or at least in as
16 far as the incidents -- the incident that you mentioned, when you -- when
17 you -- oh, yes, when you mentioned the CNN, and you said that when you
18 mentioned the CNN who were coming to photograph the site, that the
19 shooting stopped.
20 Now, as far as civilian targets were concerned, did your complaint
21 had any consequences? Did the shooting on civilian targets stop or not?
22 A. If there was an acceptance at the outset of the telephone call
23 that something was happening and if there was an agreement reached, that
24 the liaison officer would try to do something and generally that shooting
25 would cease, either naturally or by intervention. It is difficult to say.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the fact that you
2 mentioned a civilian target, did it influence in any way the decision that
3 was taken, in your opinion? What do you think?
4 A. Not necessarily. On occasions, it was not accepted that the
5 target was civilian, although that was our interpretation. As I said, if
6 there was acceptance, then the answer is yes, there would be an effect and
7 it would stop, generally.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, this happened that there was
9 an acceptance that civilian targets were targeted or even hit, in any
11 A. That certainly appeared to be the case, yes.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now two brief
13 questions, please. You spoke about -- you spoke about ladies who were
14 bearing arms, I believe.
15 A. That is correct.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In a sense that there were not
17 enough weapons to go around for people who were of military age, so I am a
18 little hesitant to find out was this a phenomenon, were these specific
19 individual cases sporadic, or was this something quite normal and usual,
20 that ladies, as well as young people, were bearing weapons and took part
21 in the combat?
22 A. No, it was not commonplace to see women bearing arms. They were
23 an exception and notable as such.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was an exception that
25 attracted your attention, therefore?
1 A. That is correct.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So when they are talking
3 about young people, children, you said you saw them playing, and your
4 expression was "playing with weapons." What do you mean by "playing with
6 A. In a similar manner that most young boys will play with toy guns,
7 play battles and the like, I witnessed young children at child's play,
8 but using real weapons.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could we imagine that these were
10 weapons that were -- could not be used, that they were not actually real
11 weapons, that they had lost their ability to be weapons, their capacity?
12 Or were these weapons that actually could be used for firing?
13 A. It would seem extremely unlikely to me that these were what we
14 might call "deactivated weapons". To me, they looked authentic, and
15 considering the environment and the conditions of these weapons, it seems
16 very likely that they were fully active.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, when you are
18 talking about cars that were modified to be used for military purpose,
19 did these vehicles bear any kind of insignia which distinguished them from
20 ordinary civilian vehicles?
21 A. The answer is yes. Generally, they were painted in a military or
22 paramilitary fashion. Some attempt of camouflage may well have been made
23 on the surface of the vehicle. Often, there would be slogans, words or
24 insignia painted on these vehicles.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hermer, I also have a few questions for you. You
2 have told us yesterday that on the basis of crater analysis, the range and
3 direction of the firing points could be established. We heard a lot of
4 testimony in this court about direction. Could you please tell us a bit
5 more about how you could establish the range by crater analysis?
6 A. The range assessment doing crater analysis is one of the more
7 difficult elements to assess because there are a number of factors which
8 can make the assessment inaccurate, for example, the height at which the
9 weapon was fired. The height the weapon was fired and the type of charge
10 that was used to fire the weapon will affect the angle of trajectory of
11 the round which makes the impact on the ground distinctive. So,
12 generally, the first thing to do is to assess whether the impact is mortar
13 round or an artillery round, and that is done by looking at the
14 characteristic shape of the impact on the ground. The two are very
15 different. If the ground is very soft, this can be almost impossible to
17 Once you have established whether the round was fired by mortar or
18 artillery, the next thing to do is to try to find some trace or remainder
19 of the fuse of the weapon, which would give you an approximate angle of
20 trajectory, be it high angle or low angle. Based upon the size of the
21 impact and any parts that remain of the shell, you can then determine
22 approximately the calibre of the weapon that was used, and by combining
23 all those factors, you can make a deduction with regards to the range of
24 the weapon. The easiest thing to assess is the direction from which the
25 weapon was fired. The pattern on the ground is very distinctive, but the
1 range is much more difficult.
2 JUDGE ORIE: About the charge, what would you know about the
3 charge? Because it is my understanding that it is not one of the least
4 important elements to establish the range.
5 A. Generally, with artillery pieces, you are working with fixed
6 shells and fixed charge, but when you are working with mortars, you can
7 vary the amount of charge which is that which fires the round out of the
8 barrel of the weapon. By varying that, you can of course increase the
9 range or decrease the range, and that is used in conjunction with the
10 angle of trajectory of the weapon. So, for example, you might need to use
11 a very high charge and a very high angle of trajectory to achieve a very
12 short range if you have a high feature which you need to clear, for
13 example, a hill. On the other hand, you could use a low angle of
14 trajectory and a low charge to achieve a greater range. And these are the
15 elements which make crater analysis difficult.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that as far as the
17 direction is concerned, that it is far better possible to give firm
18 conclusions if you would compare it with the range?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I have another question for you. You told us --
21 although the transcript says really time was used, but I think you were
22 talking about real time using for establishing gunlines or gun positions.
23 Could you explain to me - gunlines, I think I do understand - but how real
24 time would be used to establish compositions?
25 A. The time of flight of a round from the point of fire to the point
1 of impact is a very important tool for soldiers to use. By accurately
2 timing that time of flight and taking into account some other variables,
3 it can help you to determine the range at which the weapon was fired. But
4 as I have said, there are other variables such as altitude, the firing
5 point, and any obstacles which need to be cleared which can increase time
6 of flight, but not necessarily range.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hermer, my last question to you is: You told us
8 yesterday about the obstruction you experienced when you wanted to move on
9 the Lima side. Did you experience similar obstructions to move on the
10 Papa side?
11 A. Such restrictions were occasionally placed upon us, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would compare the obstruction on the
13 Lima side and the Papa side, would you say it was more intense on one of
14 both sides?
15 A. Gaining clearance to move around the Lima side was generally
16 beset with problems and frequently, without warning, our military
17 observers were confined to their locations. On the Papa side, this was
18 less so, and Bosnian army and government elements were generally happy
19 with us having freedom of movement within the city.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hermer. This concludes your testimony
21 in this court. I would like to thank you very much for -- well --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...there might be
25 questions. Are they related to any questions of the Bench?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe so,
2 Mr. President. I would just like to confer for a couple of seconds
3 because after the questions by the Chamber, General Galic would like to
4 ask some questions, and maybe we can do it after the break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...I think it is
6 better to have the break now. We have a shorter time in total so let's
7 have a break of 25 minutes. We resume then at -- if the interpreters
8 would agree with that as an exception, we have a break of 25 minutes, so
9 we start at a quarter to 5.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 4.20 p.m
11 --- on resuming 4.47 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.
14 General Galic and the Defence of General Galic are grateful for the
15 Chamber for giving us an opportunity to reply to something mentioned by
16 Judge El Mahdi that has to do with women members of the army. General
17 Galic reminded of me an existence of a document and my question is as
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
20 Q. Sir, did you know about a fact that in the 102nd Motorised Brigade
21 of the Muslim army, in which there were some 3500 soldiers, there were at
22 least 236 - the exact number is 236 - women, 7 per cent of which were in
23 command posts, whereas the others were deployed on the front or in combat.
24 Did you know of this? Sir, we are now referring to the 102nd Motorised
25 Brigade. I am now referring to a document in our possession. It is a
1 document dated December 20, 1993.
2 A. I cannot say that I specifically remember having been made aware
3 of those figures. They are not -- they don't strike a cord. I can't say
4 I knew that, no.
5 Q. Didn't you know that there was a significant number of women
6 reservists who were in the 102nd Motorised Brigade?
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer the question, Mr. Hermer.
8 A. I would have to say that I wasn't aware that the number was -- or
9 the percentage was as high as that, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The second question was whether you knew that there
11 was a significant number of women reservists. That is not a percentage
12 any more. That was in the first question.
13 THE WITNESS: My apologies. No I did not know there were a
14 significant number.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And still within the same line of questions, do you know, sir,
17 about a document which pertains to demobilisation of children?
18 A. I am not aware of any document pertaining to that subject matter,
20 Q. Thank you, Witness.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Since I take it that there are no further questions,
23 this - and I say now for the second time, Mr. Hermer - concludes your
24 testimony in this court. I would like to thank you very much for coming
25 and answering questions of all the parties and the Bench. That is
1 important for us to hear witnesses who can tell us about events at the
2 relevant times, relevant places. Thank you very much for coming.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Hermer out of
5 the courtroom.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we have no documents,
8 although D108 which was not tendered before has been mentioned, but it is
9 not tendered in evidence. That means that the Prosecution could call its
10 next witness, but I think there are still a few remaining issues to deal
11 with before.
12 First of all, we have received the redacted Prosecution documents
13 numbers 291305 and 315A, the redactions, just to consist of taking out
14 parts that were not related to the evidence given by the witness.
15 Is there any observation to be made in that respect from the side
16 of the Defence?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I
18 don't think there are any.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ierace, did I understand you well that you
20 -- that you would give a short explanation on an issue which was dealt
21 with by Mr. Stamp -- by -- yes, by Mr. Stamp, the issue of the medical
22 records with, may I say what looks more or less as rubbed out entries.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have spoken to the relevant members
25 of my team about that issue and it is, in my opinion, appropriate for
1 there to be some enquiries made of the relevant people, the relevant
2 institutions in Sarajevo. And we are tasking an investigator to make
3 those enquiries. I expect that that will take at least a week.
4 Therefore, any explanation that we will be in a position to provide to the
5 Trial Chamber probably won't be before the end of next week.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you will make further enquiries.
7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could
9 Mr. Ierace remind us of the date when these documents were produced.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What document are you --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The documents, the medical
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I really don't understand what the
15 purpose of that question is. And as my learned friend well remembers, it
16 was Mr. Stamp who led that evidence. If he is anxious to know that date
17 then I would be happy to provide it to him at the next break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Produced, the production of documents could mean
19 different things, in my view.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: When he wishes to tender to evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have to ask or do we know?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No when was that? I just
23 wanted -- no, what I wanted is that Mr. Ierace could give us again the
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...was approximately
1 three weeks ago.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is exactly what I
3 remember, Mr. President, and therefore I believe it has been now for three
4 weeks, and I think one would have had enough investigations to find out
5 the exact date.
6 Now the Defence would like to ask your Chamber if the Chamber can
7 issue a decision whereby the -- telling us that these pieces, these
8 documents, are not accepted because we cannot go on with this kind of
9 suspense if they are going to be tendered in evidence or
10 not, and it is never happening. So, as far as we are concerned, they
11 should not be tendered. They cannot be tendered. One month notice is not
12 acceptable, and the position of the Defence is such.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...of course, we will
14 consider your request.
15 I have one additional question to you, Mr. Ierace. Is there any
16 of the witnesses to be called in the very near future? That means,
17 looking at my list, well, before the second part of next week, that would
18 be in relation in whatever way with medical documents or -- the numbers
19 are not enough for me to identify.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is a possibility.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, we are talking about medical
23 documents that are showing, well, call it multiple entries, call it
24 manipulations. As the Defence prefers to say, call it "grattage." Of
25 course, I would like to know exactly whether next week the Defence would
1 be hindered in cross-examining the witnesses by not having an answer yet.
2 Perhaps not all medical documents would cause the same problems. We have
3 them of many different kinds. Could you please try to inform the Chamber
4 after the next break on whether one of these specific documents that
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is talking about would be introduced during the next
7 MR. IERACE: Just a point of clarification, Mr. President. When
8 you say, "one of the documents, specific documents that Mr. Piletta-Zanin
9 is talking about," do you mean documents that are affected by the
10 signature of Dr. Dobraca, in other words, the entry that is troubling the
11 Defence in relation to Dr. Dobraca.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's in general terms. You can see on
13 documents that there has been a previous entry at the same place. I think
14 there have been already discussions of possible explanations like shortage
15 of paper or whatever it might be. But that we know more about that and
16 specifically asking whether one of these documents, where you can see that
17 there had been something else before and there is now a new entry, whether
18 one of these documents will be used during the next week.
19 MR. IERACE: I will certainly make those enquiries, Mr. President
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber would like to know that before
21 further considering the issue. That is of a totally different nature, but
22 I would also like to deal with it before the weekend.
23 General Galic, I was informed that your chair in the detention
24 unit has been ordered but not yet arrived. I am just mentioning it in
25 order to make clear to you that we try to pay proper attention to the
1 matters raised before and that we will do that on a continuous basis.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very much.
3 And I have to tell you that my medical condition, as far as the
4 problems I had spoken to you before, has somewhat deteriorated. Thank
6 JUDGE ORIE: I am sorry to hear that, that it has deteriorated. I
7 have given instructions that the Chamber wants to be informed about every
8 development in assisting you in overcoming the health problems. We know
9 we are just human beings so we know it is not always possible, but
10 whatever additional treatment might be necessary. So, therefore, I was
11 just referring to the chair because that is one of the first and one of
12 the most, I would say, one of the most simple issues to deal with. And
13 the chair is coming, and of course we hope that it will -- we hope at
14 least outbalance the deterioration and give some improvement.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am trying to withstand this trial
16 as much as I can, but you -- I would like to remind you of another
17 suggestion of mine, to have a medical examination and to enable people who
18 were in charge of my health for 30 years at the Belgrade military
19 academy and to see what else can be done in order to help me go through
20 this trial and perhaps later on, if need be, go and have a surgery. Well,
21 this is very briefly what my request is all about. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic, when I am talking about the chair, it
23 is not that I think that would be the final solution, not at all. We have
24 advised the -- your Defence to get in touch with those responsible and I
25 have given instructions that whatever steps are made, whatever --
1 whatever developments are there, that the Chamber is informed about it.
2 And of course, I take it that the Defence has also brought to the
3 attention of those responsible your specific request for being examined
4 by the doctors you would prefer to examine you. But the chair is a very
5 easy thing and easy to be dealt with, and I was informed that it has been
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I would
8 like to tell you another thing that you are not aware of: The Defence
9 has already put in a request with the head of the detention unit to have
10 an appointment with him in order to discuss all of these ongoing problems.
11 I am sorry if I have taken too much of your time. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Not at all. We can't solve your problems, but we can
13 keep a close eye that proper care is taken and we are, on a continuous
14 basis, informed about the developments. I just wanted to let you know.
15 As you know, whenever there is any specific health problem remaining for
16 which you would like to ask the attention of the Chamber, we are always
17 willing to listen to it and see what we can do about it.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again, thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be any uncertainty about the
21 transcript whether the documents P219, P305 or P315A, would have been
22 admitted, I confirm that they were just a couple of minutes ago admitted
23 into evidence.
24 Is the Prosecution then ready to call its next witness?
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I call Mr. Henneberry.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, can you please escort Mr. Henneberry
2 into the court.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, I would like to
4 withdraw from the courtroom.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 WITNESS: PATRICK HENNEBERRY
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Henneberry - at least I assume that you are Mr.
9 Henneberry - before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure
10 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text of this
12 declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you
13 to make that declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth
16 and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Henneberry.
18 Mr. Henneberry, you will first be examined by counsel for the
20 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
21 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
22 Q. Is your full name Patrick Noel Henneberry?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Were you born on the 11th of April, 1960?
25 A. I was.
1 Q. In 1979, did you join the armed forces of Canada?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you now retired from the Canadian Armed Forces?
4 A. From the active forces, yes. I am still a member of the reserve
6 Q. Did you retire from the active forces with the rank of Major?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In 1992, were you posted to UNPROFOR duties in Bosnia?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In that capacity, did you travel to Sarajevo on the 30th of July,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you remain there until mid-February 1993?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you initially assume the position of senior military
17 A. On -- yes, on particular positions.
18 Q. Yes. Ultimately, did you assume the position of commander on the
19 north Lima side of Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Lima being the side where observations were made of the equipment
22 and activities of the Bosnian Serb army; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you responsible for 32 UNMOs, being UNMO, United Nations
25 Military Observers?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown a map which
3 is Exhibit 742.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Ierace.
5 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Would it be possible for Mr.
7 Ierace to have a map for General Galic. He would be able to look at it
8 much better than I would or Ms. Pilipovic.
9 Thank you, Madam Registrar. Thank you very much indeed.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. Mr. Henneberry, did this map come into your possession?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did it come into your possession during the course of your
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As you understand it, as of what date is the map accurate in
17 terms of its depiction of various Lima positions?
18 A. Fall of 1992.
19 Q. In the bottom left-hand side of the map, there appears a black and
20 white chart; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: I think that part of the map, Mr. President, would
23 probably fit on the UNMO --
24 JUDGE ORIE: The ELMO.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, excuse me, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, you made the commitments as far as
2 the -- could you please wait for one second, Mr. Usher. You made the
3 commitments in respect of the UN confidential information. Do I
4 understand that this is not to be regarded as protected, or at least this
5 part of the map? I mean, we granted the protective measures but it was on
6 the request of the Prosecution.
7 MR. IERACE: That is so, Mr. President. But that relates only to
8 some of the documentary exhibits, not all of them
9 JUDGE ORIE: We were not informed what documents were and what
10 documents were not. And let's not discuss at this very moment whether it
11 would have been appropriate to limit the protective measures to those
12 documents that needed the protection.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you look at the letter that I think
14 was copied to the Trial Chamber dated the 15th of May, that is yesterday,
15 on the second page --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have not perhaps read your mail of yesterday,
17 but let me just have a look. Yes. I just received it. Yes, they are
18 all, as far as I can see, 742 -- no 742 -- I see you made a distinction
19 between those under Rule 70 and those not.
20 MR. IERACE: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's proceed.
22 And would you please put on the ELMO, Mr. Usher, the chart at the
23 left down corner of the map.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Henneberry, the chart which is before you indicates
1 across the top line "UNMO patrol base number." Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in the left-hand column going downwards, various types of
4 weaponry. Is that the case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On the face of it, the chart would appear to indicate the numbers
7 of particular types of weaponry at various Lima positions; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Coming back to the top line, one sees that one of the columns is
11 titled "Lima HQ." To what does that refer?
12 A. That is the headquarters for the commander of the UNMOs based in
13 Lukavica barracks.
14 Q. All right. So am I correct in saying that the map indicates the
15 various positions as of the fall of 1992 of certain Lima positions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They being the ones, all of the ones that existed at that stage
18 or not?
19 A. I couldn't say for sure. There is one other that I think was
20 destroyed before this time. Let me rephrase, if I may. Yes, yes, to your
21 answer, I do recall this.
22 Q. All right.
23 And again if we go to the black and white chart, in the bottom
24 left-hand corner under "note 2," I think we see this stated: "These
25 figures were taken from an undated document written in Sarajevo at some
1 time between December and September of 1992." Do those words appear?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Let's put that to one side and come back to that later
5 Now, as of mid-September 1992, whereabouts were you based?
6 A. I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
7 Q. As of mid-September 1992, whereabouts were you based?
8 A. Specific position or -- I am sorry?
9 Q. Where did you sleep at nights?
10 A. I would have to look at my diary, because I moved occasionally
11 from position to position. If I had a specific date, I could tell you.
12 Q. All right. But in a general sense, say between mid-September and
13 the beginning of December, at what type of locations were you based?
14 A. I was at various Serbian positions, be they military
15 establishments such as Lukavica, or other facilities that were held by the
17 Q. At some point, did you become based at the Lukavica headquarters?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When was that?
20 A. Permanently in December of 1992.
21 Q. Up until December, that is when you were permanently based there,
22 did you visit the Lukavica headquarters and if so, how frequently?
23 A. I did visit. The frequency was dependent on the tactical
24 situation, primarily. It ranged from once per week up to several times
25 per week.
1 Q. As part of your duties and the duties of other UNMOs, were
2 documents known as Shoot-Reps prepared in which the number of outgoing and
3 incoming shells or other projectiles were recorded?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you form any view as to how accurate these Shoot-Reps were?
6 A. They were very inaccurate. Almost always, the count was lower
7 than the actual number of rounds.
8 Q. How often were those documents prepared?
9 A. Daily.
10 Q. Can you identify what factors account for them being an
11 underestimate of the actual number?
12 A. There were three main reasons. First, we did not have a physical
13 presence, "we" being the UNMO, at all of the known sites. And we knew
14 there were other sites around Sarajevo that we were not permitted to
15 enter. The second reason was that some of the UNMOs were not very
16 diligent in their duties. And the third reason is frequently, I suppose,
17 the number of rounds falling were so intense that it was not possible to
18 distinguish from one to another or get an accurate count.
19 Q. All right. Now, you have told us that prior to sometime in
20 December, you were based at places other than Lukavica headquarters. From
21 time to time as part of your duties, did you make observations of gun
22 positions on the Bosnian Serb army side of the confrontation lines?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you form any view based on your observations as to the nature
25 of the fire emanating from various gun positions that you observed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was that view?
3 A. Most of the indirect weapons, they being artillery or mortars,
4 much of the time, they were fired indiscriminately without aiming and for
5 no apparent reason.
6 Q. I think you still have in front of you the map which is Exhibit
7 -- proposed Exhibit 742. Looking at that map, can you identify to us
8 particular positions where you made those first-hand observations and
9 formed that view?
10 A. Certainly. It might be easier to say that the only positions I
11 didn't see firing from were Lima 12, Lima 13, and that would be all. The
12 most intense firing that I observed came from the position monitored by
13 Lima 7, Lima 3, Lima 11, and Lima 12.
14 Q. All right. You have identified the observation posts from which
15 you observed firing.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification. The answer says
17 that "the only position I didn't see firing from were Lima 1-2" - I
18 understand it is Lima 12 - "and Lima 13 and that would be all." But then
19 among the locations for the most intense firing I find Lima 12 again.
20 Could you verify that.
21 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I should have said Lima 2. I did not
22 see firing from Lima 2 or Lima 13.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is clarifies the issue.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 8548 to 8550.
1 Q. So you have identified to us the positions from which you observed
2 firing. From which of those positions did you observe firing in
3 circumstances where you formed the view that it was indiscriminate without
4 aim and for no apparent reason?
5 A. Lima 3, Lima 10, Lima 11, Lima 12, Lima 7, and Lima 5.
6 Q. Now, we are particularly interested in the period from, say,
7 mid-September 1992. Did your last answer apply in all respects to the
8 period after mid-September 1992 or not?
9 A. It did.
10 Q. Let's go through some of those positions. Lima 7, what
11 observations did you make from Lima 7 which led you to that conclusion?
12 A. I observed numerous times soldiers firing weapons, indirect
13 weapons, artillery and whatnot, without aiming, firing while they were
14 intoxicated, moving some of the weapons by hand without aiming, firing
15 what is called over open sites for an indirect weapon, which is not the
16 proper procedure, and in discussions with the soldiers themselves.
17 Q. All right. I will ask you to explain some of the -- those
18 observations you have related. When you say, "moving some of the weapons
19 by hand without aiming," what exactly do you mean?
20 A. If I may use an example of a mortar, for instance. It is a tube
21 that points towards the sky and there should be a number of wheels and
22 sights, optical sights with wheels, to which you move the barrel minutely
23 by varying degrees. That is the only way a mortar can be fired accurately
24 to the target it was intended, not a pinpoint target. I personally
25 witnessed several times the soldiers moving it by hand or them by hand
1 without checking their sights, without knowing where the round would land
2 when fired, and in some cases, they actually just kicked the weapon.
3 Whenever it stopped was fine, and they would fire that way.
4 Q. In relation to this fire you are telling us about, were you able
5 to determine where the fire ended up? In other words, whether it ended up
6 in the city of Sarajevo on the other sides of the confrontation lines or
7 somewhere else?
8 A. In many cases, yes, you could see the impact or I could see the
9 impact in the city. There were several occasions where I did not see
10 where the rounds landed, but on many occasions, yes, I could see them
11 falling in the city.
12 Q. On any of those occasions where you did not actually see where
13 those rounds landed, were you nevertheless able to arrive at a conclusion
14 as to whether or not it would have landed somewhere in the city?
15 A. Generally, yes.
16 Q. How far approximately was Lima 7 from the nearest point of the
17 front line, just approximately?
18 A. Less than 1 kilometre.
19 Q. I take it, therefore, that the city on the other side, as a matter
20 of logic, was at its closest point something less than a
21 kilometre. Is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. In relation to mortars, perhaps a mortar directed at a target
24 within the city, if you were to kick it or otherwise handle it in such a
25 way that it moved, say, five degrees, what would that translate as in
1 terms of distance in a target area? In other words, if it is moved a
2 few degrees, is that a matter of a few metres in a target area or tens of
3 metres or more or what?
4 A. Depending on the distance fired, it would be --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to be extremely
7 precise on these questions. I am sorry to interrupt, but the French
8 transcript will not be exact. We are talking about five degrees and I
9 would like to have the same thing in the French transcript. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that proper care will be taken of you
12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Taking you back to your earlier explanation as to your
15 observations which led you to your view, you also said that you observed
16 what is called "over open sites," firing over open sites for an indirect
17 weapon. Could you explain that to us?
18 A. Yes, sir. Similar to not using the optical sights to be precise
19 on an indirect weapon, such as a mortar, artillery pieces use the same
20 principal of a series of gears and sights fairly precise. On numerous
21 occasions, I observed the soldiers simply looking with their naked eye
22 down the barrel, moving it slightly, and firing that way, moving it by
23 hand slightly without the use of the correct gears, and estimating where
24 it would land, and firing the rounds.
25 Q. I take you back to the question I asked you before my learned
1 colleague rose to his feet, and I think you didn't have an opportunity to
2 respond in full to that question. That is: If the mortar is moved, say,
3 five degrees, what would that translate as in terms of distance in a
4 target area? I think you said, "Depending on the distance fired, it would
5 be," and that is as far as you got. Can you finish that answer, please?
6 A. Yes, sir. It would be tens of metres, ranging to hundreds of
7 metres, depending on the distance from in the case of a mortar, a
8 baseplate, that being where the mortar is, to the impact.
9 Q. Finally, in relation to the relevant observations which led to
10 your formation of your view, you said that discussions with the soldiers
11 themselves -- first of all, which soldiers?
12 A. Serbian soldiers on Lima 7.
13 Q. What were those discussions, and I am asking you specifically
14 about conversations which occurred after mid-September, 1992. Thank you.
15 A. The soldiers on Lima 7 and other positions, but Lima 7 as the
16 example, told me frequently that they would just fire because they wanted
17 to, at no particular target, on occasion. They were also or, rather, they
18 also told me that sometimes they would fire in the case of another
19 position just by the time of day in the general area of a target. And,
20 again, with an indirect weapon, the method in which they moved them, it
21 meant that there was no accuracy to it.
22 Q. What do you think they meant by explaining that they were firing
23 by the time of day in the general area of a target?
24 A. I have no doubt that they were using the fire as a psychological
25 effect on the targets and the impact area, which included civilians and
2 Q. Did you make any observations as to whether there was increased
3 fire at particular times of day?
4 A. On some positions, yes, there were. If I look at Lima 3 -- no, I
5 am sorry, that is prior to September.
6 Q. Did you make any observations from any observation post as to
7 whether there were increased -- there was increased fire at particular
8 times of day after mid-September 1992?
9 A. Yes. Lima 10 and Lima 11 would open fire frequently around
11 Q. Could you work out any reason for that apparent pattern?
12 A. It was to terrorise people.
13 Q. What was the rate of fire on those occasions? In other words, was
14 it a matter of one or two shells or 10 shells or 20 shells in quick
15 succession, or what? Please wait for your answer.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Again, I apologise, but I
17 have to say it, the French transcript says: "What was the right to fire?"
18 I think they may have mistaken "rate" and "right."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that might be the case. Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
20 would there be any risk of confusion during this examination? I mean, if
21 you would just write it down on a small yellow paper, because
22 General Galic cannot be confused by it, Ms. Pilipovic cannot be confused
23 by it. We are all listening to the original testimony. Mr. Ierace could
24 not be confused by it. I do agree with you it is important to have a
25 correct French transcript, but it is not necessary in order to achieve
1 that to interrupt the testimony.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. President,
3 but I am trying to do my best when I can. It is very hard to listen to
4 and write at the same time. Thank you very much. I will do my very
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have to do that as well.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Just before I repeat that question, Mr. Henneberry, I might make
10 clear that all of my questions, unless otherwise indicated, refer to the
11 period after mid-September 1992.
12 What was the rate of fire on the occasions that you thought the
13 objective was to terrorise people? Was it a matter of one or two shells
14 or a larger number, or what?
15 A. It depended on, I believe, just the whims of the soldiers and
16 part of what I suspect was a battle plan. It could be as few as one round
17 or as many as a number that couldn't be counted due to the rate of fire.
18 Well over 10, 20.
19 Q. So the situation, as I understand it, is that you were there as
20 a United Nations military observer. Were you wearing any distinctive
21 clothing to indicate your position?
22 A. Yes, sir. I wore a blue beret or a blue helmet. I also wore a
23 large Canadian flag, coloured flag, on my flack jacket which I wore most
24 of the time, and on occasion, a bib. I don't know if that describes it.
25 It is a pullover, a blue pullover that said "UN" on it, as well as a badge
1 that identified me as a UNMO.
2 Q. In any event, based firmly on your appearance, it was clear what
3 your role was?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And in front of you, the gunning crews, the gun crews, rather,
6 engaged in this form of fire, indiscriminate form of fire?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And admitted as much to you?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Were you ever accompanied during these observations by any
11 officers or liaison officers, in particular, from Lukavica, in other
12 words, from the headquarters?
13 A. I don't think. I don't recall.
14 Q. Did you ever raise any of these concerns that you had, firstly,
15 with the local commanders?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know what brigade the gun crews at Lima 7 came under?
18 A. No.
19 Q. On how many occasions, approximately, did you raise your concerns
20 with the local commander, let's say, at Lima 7?
21 A. I can only say frequently.
22 Q. Was that at Lima 7 itself or somewhere else?
23 A. With the local commander, it was at Lima 7.
24 Q. Do you recollect his rank?
25 A. I believe he was a Lieutenant-Colonel.
1 Q. Do you recollect his name?
2 A. No.
3 Q. To the best of your recollection, what did you say to him in
4 relation to this indiscriminate fire directed at the city?
5 A. Many times, he would be asked to stop because it was
6 indiscriminate. We frequently asked why there would be firing to a
7 particular area and were often told that it was a matter of military
8 tactics, and often we simply weren't given a reason or response.
9 A. When you say, "We frequently asked why there would be firing to a
10 particular area," did you say anything to make clear your concern as to
11 the indiscriminate nature of the firing?
12 A. Yes. Many times we would tell the local commander, not on Lima 7
13 but other positions, that the shells were falling inside the city where
14 there was no opposing force, military presence.
15 Q. You have told us that you did that frequently at Lima 7. On any
16 of those occasions, did the local commander, the Lieutenant-Colonel, deny
17 that it was happening?
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Did you make complaints to the local commander at Lima 3?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On any occasion did that local commander deny that it was
22 happening from Lima 3?
23 A. The commander, I don't recall, but soldiers did deny.
24 Q. When you say "soldiers," do you mean members of the gun crew or
1 A. Yes, the members of the gun crew.
2 Q. So you are saying that, if I understand you correctly, you formed
3 the view they were firing indiscriminately, but they denied to you that
4 they were on some occasions; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, and there were times - I don't recall how many - when I was
6 literally standing at the gun position while the guns were being fired -
7 excuse me - and they declared that they weren't firing the guns. Excuse
8 me for the smile, but I could see them being fired and they said, "We're
9 not firing."
10 Q. Did they have smiles on their faces when they said that to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Going back to the complaints that you made to the local commanders
13 at Lima 3 and 7, you told us you don't recall if they ever denied it. Do
14 you recall if they ever admitted it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right.
17 What is the state of your recollection as to their responses? I
18 think you told us so far that they said something to the effect, or at
19 least the one at Lima 7, said something to the effect that it was part of
20 a military plan; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, on occasion.
22 Q. Did he ever attempt to explain how firing indiscriminately into a
23 mixed urban area could be legitimately part of a military plan?
24 A. I can't say positively the commander at Lima 7, but several
25 Serbian officers, commanders or officers --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to ask
3 Mr. Ierace to remind us exactly where we -- there is a mention of a
4 military plan. I am sorry I am a little late but I am trying to be
5 everywhere at the same time. Could Mr. Ierace give us the page and the
6 line, please?
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness -- if I could assist, Mr. Ierace,
8 on page 57, line 14, the witness said, "Part of what I suspect was a
9 battle plan." That is at least how he used the words.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, which page and
11 which line?
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think I said 57, line -- but let me just retrieve
13 it. I think it is line 13 -- line 14: "What I suspect was a battle
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact, I have a different passage in
16 mind. In the English transcript, it is page 59, the answer at line 3.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 59, line 3.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But we are talking about
19 matter of military tactics. That is not exactly the same thing as
20 military plan.
21 MR. IERACE: Which is why I used "words to the effect." I am
22 happy to accommodated my learned colleague's concern.
23 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Henneberry, saying to us earlier that when
24 you protested the indiscriminate fire to the local commander at Lima 7,
25 you said this: "Many times, he would be asked to stop because it was
1 indiscriminate. We frequently asked why there would be firing to a
2 particular area and were often told that it was a matter of military
3 tactics, and often we simply weren't given a reason or response."
4 Do you remember giving that answer earlier?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. At Lima 3, were you ever given the same explanation, that it was a
7 part of military tactics?
8 A. To the best of my recollection, I was given that explanation on
9 perhaps all positions and certainly most.
10 Q. Did you make complaints to the local commanders at each of these
11 positions where you observed fire and concluded that it was
13 A. Did I make the complaint? I am sorry.
14 Q. Did you make complaints to the local commander at each of the Lima
15 positions where you observed that behaviour?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And did any of them ever offer any other explanation that you
18 could now recollect, other than "it was a matter of military tactics."
19 A. They would elaborate occasionally on the military tactics they
20 were speaking of. Lima 5, for instance, it was stated quite clearly that
21 the tactic was to destroy the city and kill all of the Muslims inside.
22 That was their statement.
23 Q. Do you remember approximately when that was said to you, or was
24 that more than one occasion?
25 A. More than one occasion.
1 Q. Were any of those occasions after September 1992?
2 A. Yes. All.
3 Q. What were the ranks, the high ranks, of the individual who said
4 that to you by way of explanation?
5 A. Captains, majors, lieutenant-colonel, colonels.
6 Q. Would you happen to know what brigade those officers were from?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I take it you were given clearance by the Lukavica headquarters to
9 attend and make observations from the various positions; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you have told us about the complaints you made at the local
12 level. Did you ever make any complaints to higher levels within the
13 command structure of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
14 A. Yes, frequently.
15 Q. Was that to a particular individual or more than one individual?
16 A. More than one.
17 Q. First of all, approximately how many individuals?
18 A. Five -- excuse me, five.
19 Q. Could you take us through each of those five, who they were?
20 A. There was a gentleman who claimed to be our liaison officer, who
21 worked across the hall from my headquarters, my staff. There was an
22 individual named Misha, who claimed at one point to be the operations
23 officer. There was an individual named Indjic, sometimes called himself
24 Indjic Miljenko, who was an intelligence officer on staff, and at least on
25 one occasion, I made that same complaint to General Galic. There were
1 also several, I would approximate 8 or 9 people, on the second floor of
2 senior rank, and I don't recall their names or positions, to whom I made
3 the same complaint or observation.
4 Q. Now, first of all, which building are you referring to when you
5 say, for instance, the second floor and the headquarters?
6 A. I am talking about the Sarajevo Romanija Corps headquarters where
7 I co-located my headquarters as well.
8 Q. Just to be clear on it, whereabouts was that headquarters?
9 A. In Lukavica.
10 Q. Now, were there a number of buildings at Lukavica?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it a fairly large complex?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where was this particular building in relation to -- within the
15 complex in relation to the main entrance, that is the entrance closest to
16 the city of Sarajevo?
17 A. Right beside it. Metres.
18 Q. How many floors were there in this building?
19 A. I am going to say two, two above-ground floors. Frankly, I
20 can't see the building in my mind right now.
21 Q. All right.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, when you would find a suitable moment for
23 the short break within the next couple of minutes, I would highly
24 appreciate it.
25 MR. IERACE: This would be a convenient time, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a short break. Our afternoon is a bit
2 different from what it usually is. I would like to have a break of 17
3 minutes, so that makes 10 minutes past 6.00. Otherwise, there will only
4 be 45 minutes left then we have 50 minutes left.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m
6 --- Upon resuming at 6.13 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE: I apologise.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
10 MR. IERACE: Yes, I apologise for being late, Mr. President.
11 Q. I was asking you before the break about the headquarters. Where
12 in the headquarters, if you know it, was the office of General Galic?
13 A. It was -- excuse me. It was on the second floor toward the centre
14 of the building as I knew it. There were portions of the building that I
15 did not get into.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you and ask for a clarification.
17 For in different countries and in different languages, ground floor,
18 second floor. Sometimes the ground floor is the first floor. Would you
19 please be clear on whether the second floor is two above the ground floor
20 or is it --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, second floor is two above ground floor.
22 Actually, no. It is the second floor above the ground, yes, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that has been clarified.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. You would walk up the ground level one flight of stairs; is that
2 what you mean?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be given a sheet of
5 paper and a pen.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Ierace?
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Mr. Henneberry, can you draw on the piece of paper --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could that be done on the ELMO, Mr. Ierace?
10 MR. IERACE: Yes certainly, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Especially since it is not yet a classified document,
12 is it?
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. All right. Now, I will ask you this question first: Was there a
15 main entrance, if I could call it that, to the Lukavica complex?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did that main entrance come off -- I take it that main entrance
18 came off a road?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Taking the top edge of the paper as north, could you first of all
21 draw a line indicating the road in the area of the main entrance.
22 A. I will have the refer to --
23 Q. Also indicate the entrance in the road leading from it into the
25 A. Certainly.
1 Q. Perhaps the ELMO operator can zoom it back.
2 A. I have identified, by way of two dots here, the headquarters, this
3 being the road that was outside of the Lukavica compound; this being the
4 main entrance here; this being the headquarters building itself, the first
5 building as you came in to the -- generally, the south. This corner is
6 where my headquarters, the UNMOs headquarters, was. And I would
7 approximate from the part of the building that I recall or that I had
8 access to, that General Galic's office would be just slightly left of the
9 centre of the building on the second floor, with his windows facing
10 generally south-west, sort of that way.
11 Q. All right.
12 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown the map which is Exhibit
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry, but
15 since the witness has indicated many things in this -- this paper and on
16 the screen, perhaps my learned colleague could give verbal indications for
17 the transcript, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or if I could assist you. When the witness was
19 mentioning a road outside the compound of Lukavica, he was referring to
20 the vertical line, and left central entrance is where the horizontal line
21 comes in to that line. The command building was the greatest rectangular.
22 The part in the upper right-hand side, a very small rectangular black
23 part, is where his office was and the arrows show the view from the
24 offices of General Galic, and I see that the witness is now adding it all
25 to the drawing.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. Thank you for that, Mr. Henneberry.
3 MR. IERACE: And thank you, Mr. President.
4 Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a copy of the
5 standard Prosecution map which is Exhibit P3644. I have some blanks to
6 provide to Your Honours and the Defence. And perhaps to save time, I
7 think we are all reasonably familiar with it. We can open it at the
8 folded section which depicts Lukavica.
9 THE REGISTRAR: P3644.PH.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. Mr. Henneberry, can you please open the map in the --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,
13 but I believe when the witness drew something which looked like a
14 horizontal rectangle which was the main command building, he also drew a
15 small black rectangle, and I do not see that this was mentioned, the
16 smallest rectangle, please.
17 THE WITNESS: Shall I clarify, sir?
18 JUDGE ORIE: I see that you started writing already.
19 THE WITNESS: That was just an indication, that particular mark,
20 an indication of slightly left of the centre of the building, and this
21 particular mark here, if I divide the building like this, would be General
22 Galic's office on the second -- on the floor above ground by one flight of
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one stairs up.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. If it may assist for the benefit of the transcript, having regard
2 to where you have placed north, you indicate General Galic's office to be
3 on the southern side of the building. And going back to an earlier
4 answer, there are two arrows on the diagram which indicate the direction
5 of view that the General would have had through the window; is that
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. All right. Now, would you please turn to the map that you have
9 just been handed. Can you find on that map the complex of Lukavica.
10 A. Yes, I have it here.
11 Q. Do you see on that map the road which you have described in the
12 diagram as "road outside of complex"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you also see on that map the road that comes off it at 90
15 degrees and alongside which is the headquarters building?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and highlight the section of
18 those two roads which appears in your diagram.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you for that. Do you also see in silhouette form the
21 building which accommodated the headquarters?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Could you draw with your blue pen an arrow ending at that
24 particular silhouette?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you for that.
2 MR. IERACE: That might be returned.
3 Q. Mr. Henneberry, I now take you back to the five individuals that
4 you told us you complained to about indiscriminate fire into Sarajevo.
5 The first of those you described as "a gentleman who claimed to be our
6 liaison officer who worked across the hall from my headquarters, my
8 Do you know the name of that individual?
9 A. No, sir, I am afraid I have forgotten.
10 Q. Do you recollect his rank?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Do you recollect any distinctive features about his appearance?
13 A. He was an elderly gentleman and, by that, I would put him seeming
14 to appear in the mid-60 years of age range, perhaps slightly under.
15 Q. Was he ever uniformed when you saw him?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Was he always uniformed when you saw him?
18 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
19 Q. Did he have an office to himself or an office that he shared?
20 A. It was sort of an open office concept with more than one person in
22 Q. Did you complain to him on one occasion or more than one
24 A. More than one.
25 Q. Approximately how many times?
1 A. I really couldn't even approximate, sir. It was several.
2 Q. As to why you complained to him, you have told us that he claimed
3 to be your liaison officer. Who did you understand be to represent in
4 terms of liaison with you and the UNMOs?
5 A. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
6 Q. On how many occasions, approximately, did you complain to him
7 after mid-September 1992?
8 A. Several, perhaps less than 10, to him.
9 Q. At any stage, did he suggest to you that you were mistaken in
10 your conclusion that the fire was indiscriminate?
11 A. I don't believe so.
12 Q. Do you recollect what explanation, if any, he offered to you for
14 A. No, sir, I don't.
15 Q. Did he ever offer to take any action to stop it?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Go on.
18 A. The action was that he would, like most of the people we
19 complained to, that he would send our request forward, "forward" being up
20 the chain of command, for consideration. And invariably -- most of the
21 time, that statement was accompanied by a request for some form of action
22 on the part of the United Nations or by the Muslim side. And it was clear
23 that my request would not be accommodated unless his request for action
24 was also accommodated.
25 Q. Did you actually hand to him on any of those occasions a written
2 A. I couldn't say for sure that it was to him, sir. I did written
3 complaints, but I couldn't say for sure it was to him.
4 Q. Do I understand you to be saying that, in effect, on some of those
5 occasions, he said he would make a complaint further up the chain of his
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And did he indicate whether his complaint would be in writing or
10 A. I don't believe so, sir.
11 Q. On any occasion, did he report back to you on the results of a --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apologise. I
14 know the transcripts are revised, but I can see the answer that the
15 witness gave, the meaning, "I couldn't say for sure," and he also said
16 that as far as he remembered, he wouldn't be able to say for certain
17 which officer it was. But it is not just one word, it is a whole
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you would agree with that and I think, as
20 a matter of fact, that the witness testified that he does not remember
21 whether it was specifically to this person that he handed over a written
22 complaint. And that is --
23 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I will clarify it to save time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I could clarify it to save time
1 JUDGE ORIE: If this is true, I think we have the missing part of
2 the transcript.
3 THE WITNESS: That is true
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think that if just a whole part of a sentence falls
5 away, then it might be more difficult to redact that, so I appreciate your
6 assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
9 Q. So on a number of occasions, you complained to a person you
10 understood to be a senior officer and, what's more, a liaison officer
11 within the SRK, of indiscriminate fire. Is that your evidence?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. On any of those occasions -- shall I say following any of those
14 occasions, did he report back to you on what action, if any, had been
16 A. First, if I may make a minor clarification. I don't believe I
17 ever used the specific word "indiscriminate" fire. I would use a phrase
18 such as, "the fire is landing on the UNMO position in the middle of town."
19 I did not use the word "indiscriminate." And as far as getting back to
20 me, I couldn't say for sure whether he did frequently. I could tell by
21 getting on the radio whether the fire had ceased or not because I could
22 contact one of my colleagues and they would tell me.
23 Q. On any of the occasions that you complained to him, did the fire
24 cease shortly thereafter?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. I did?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. All right. What did that indicate to you, if anything?
4 A. That the consideration of my complaint was taken and an order had
5 been called to ceasefire.
6 Q. Do you remember where the fire was originating from on any of
7 those occasions that it stopped?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness just slow
9 down a little for the interpreters? Thank you.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. Are you able to say, although you don't recall --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the
14 message passed, I believe the message on the slowing down. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was. You hear it in French, we hear it in
17 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. Although you don't recall the specific places of origin, does your
20 memory serve you sufficiently to say whether those sources were Lima
21 observations post positions?
22 A. The sources of the fire?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Yes, sir. Or sites monitored by the Lima observation positions.
25 Q. Now, the second person that you mentioned you complained to, I
1 think you said there was an individual named Misha someone who claimed at
2 one point to be the operations officer. The transcript hasn't at this
3 stage recorded the name that you gave. Who was that person?
4 A. The name he used was Misha, "M" as in "Michael" i-s-h-a, and he
5 claimed to be the corps operations officer. And I say "claimed." I don't
6 personally believe he was the senior operations officer, just by way of
7 his age and location in the building. But he was -- he was involved with
8 operations, and perhaps his understanding of what an operations officer is
9 and mine differed.
10 Q. On how many occasions after September 1992 did you personally
11 complain to him in terms similar to your complaint to the liaison officer?
12 A. To him, it was few. I would say less than five.
13 Q. What was his response on those occasions?
14 A. Indifference, generally.
15 Q. Did he ever offer any action or further report up his chain of
17 A. I don't recall whether he did or not.
18 Q. If you recollect, what was it about him, either his appearance or
19 what he said, that led you to conclude that his response to your concerns
20 was one of indifference?
21 A. Body language, shrugging, no verbal response, ignored my
23 Q. Did you speak to him through the services of an interpreter?
24 A. I don't believe so. I believe he spoke English.
25 Q. Incidently, the first person you mentioned, did you communicate
1 with him through an interpreter or in English?
2 A. Through an interpreter.
3 Q. Do you recollect Misha's rank?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did he wear a uniform when you typically saw him?
6 A. Yes, but his uniform was a different colour than the standard
7 green camouflage of soldiers. His was a solid blue. Similar, but not
8 quite a police uniform. Similar to.
9 Q. Did you ever see any room in the headquarters which seemed to be
10 an operations room?
11 A. An operations planning room, yes. An operations centre, no.
12 Q. Did this gentleman, Misha, seem to have an office somewhere in the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Whereabouts was that?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. All right.
18 The third person that you mentioned was an individual named
19 Indjic, who you described as an intelligence officer on staff, although I
20 may have confused two individuals in that description. Did you mean
21 by "intelligence officer" the person named Indjic or another person?
22 A. Indjic.
23 Q. Did he seem to have an office in the headquarters?
24 A. He had an office directly across from the entrance to the UNMO
1 Q. Was that a shared office or an office just for him?
2 A. I believe it was his own.
3 Q. Do you know what rank he was at that stage?
4 A. When I started, he claimed to be a captain, and at some time in
5 the winter, he was promoted to major.
6 Q. Did he always wear a uniform?
7 A. The vast majority of the time, yes.
8 Q. Did he ever say to you what his job was?
9 A. Yes. He said he was the, not "a," but "the" intelligence officer
10 for the corps. I did not believe him in that, but I did believe that he
11 was a trained intelligence officer. By that, I mean trained in the skill
12 and art of intelligence collection.
13 Q. When you say that you did not believe his claim to be the
14 intelligence officer for the corps, did you form any view as to what his
15 job, in fact, was?
16 A. His job was in part to try to get intelligence from the UNMOs. Of
17 that, there is no doubt. He also had, and spoke to me on several
18 occasions, of intelligence that he personally gathered or was given on the
19 status of the Muslim forces. Finally, he knew frequently, and perhaps
20 always, of the larger-scale plans of the corps, and by that I mean the
21 corps plan, the brigade plans.
22 Q. Did you ever see him in the company of General Galic?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. On how many occasions after September 1992 did you complain to
25 him about shelling of Sarajevo in particular, shelling of civilian
2 A. Dozens and dozens, if not hundreds. I met with him daily, several
4 Q. Before you moved into the Lukavica headquarters, that is before
5 that time whenever it was in December 1992, how many times per week would
6 you complain to him about such shellings?
7 A. To him, less than once a week before I moved in.
8 Q. When you moved in, then how often?
9 A. Dozens upon dozens, if not hundreds. There would be days when I
10 would spend six hours with him. There were days whether I would meet with
11 him 20 or 30 times. There were other days when we didn't meet or the
12 contact was less frequent.
13 Q. What can you tell us as to his response, typically, if there was a
14 typical response, to your complaints about civilians in the city being
16 A. Initially, there was much rhetoric about why the Serbs were
17 shelling the Muslims civilians and military, how the Serbs had been
18 persecuted over the centuries. As we got to know each other and in fact
19 developed a rapport, he had admitted to me that he knew civilians were
20 being shelled and were dying and that he believed it was wrong, but it
21 simply was going to continue.
22 Q. Did he explain to you why he thought it was going to continue?
23 A. Yes. The ultimate goal, as explained by Indjic and indeed General
24 Mladic himself, was to either destroy the city or rid it of Muslims.
25 Q. You said just then and I am quoting from the transcript, " and
1 indeed General Mladic himself."
2 A. Excuse me, sir. General Galic.
3 Q. So coming back to Indjic, he told you that he believed it was
4 wrong, but it simply was going to continue, and he explained to you why he
5 thought it was going to continue, namely, because the ultimate goal was to
6 either destroy the city or rid it of Muslims. Have I accurately reflected
7 back to you your evidence so far?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did he say anything as to where the orders were coming from to
10 that end?
11 A. Other than an indication - perhaps not a direct statement per se -
12 but an indication that it was the corps plan. Specifically from who, no.
13 Q. Was that in a particular conversation or a series of conversations
14 that you had with him that he indicated, to use your word, that it was the
15 corps plan?
16 A. Several conversations.
17 Q. Can you remember at this stage -- well, first of all, did you
18 speak to him in English or a different language?
19 A. English.
20 Q. Can you remember the words that he used or any of the words that
21 he used which indicated to you that he was communicating that it was the
22 corps plan? And take your time to think about it.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To be precise and since the
1 witness is going to take his time, would it be possible for Mr. Ierace to
2 be more precise about which army corps?
3 MR. IERACE: I will take that on board, Mr. President, and I will
4 come back to that
5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it is perfectly clear from the line of
6 questioning, but if I do -- yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Do you remember any of the words he used that indicated to you
9 that it was the corps plan?
10 A. Not particularly no.
11 Q. All right. When he spoke of the corps in these various
12 conversations that you had with him, which particular corps were you and
13 he discussing?
14 A. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
15 Q. Did he say anything to you at any stage about the way in which
16 that corps plan, as you understood it, was communicated down to the, for
17 instance, level of the gun crews?
18 A. Mr. Indjic did not tell me but I saw other ways or witnessed the
19 ways in which the information would flow from the corps headquarters
20 right down to individual soldiers.
21 Q. Can you tell us what they were, please.
22 A. Yes. Occasionally, and I simply -- I couldn't say how many times,
23 the senior officers who were on brigade staff, or perhaps brigade
24 commanders, would come to the headquarters. Radio transmissions were also
25 used at least at the brigade headquarters level, presumably up and down,
1 and from that, I saw, getting down into the brigade and perhaps lower unit
2 status, down to the soldier level, the orders were usually transmitted
4 Q. How did you know it was the brigade commanders who would come to
5 the headquarters? Was it a matter of you recognising them or some other
7 A. On a few occasions, I recognised individuals who said they were
8 brigade commanders. Generally, it was the way in which they arrived and
9 what they were doing that made me believe they were brigade commanders.
10 Q. What was that method of arrival?
11 A. They would have a driver and a vehicle. They would get out and be
12 escorted with some deference to their status and they would go upstairs if
13 they were senior.
14 Q. When you say "go upstairs," what was there upstairs, apart from
15 the office of General Galic?
16 A. The operations planning room that I discussed earlier was up
17 there. There were telephone communications as a minimum, perhaps others.
18 There were some accommodations. There were restricted areas that I simply
19 didn't get into.
20 Q. Do you know whether those restricted areas were staffed? In other
21 words, whether there were offices there or not?
22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. In those conversations, in those long and repeated conversations
24 with Major Indjic, did he express any misgivings about the campaign, apart
25 from acknowledging that it was wrong? I should say by "campaign," I mean
1 the shelling of Sarajevo.
2 A. No, other than he did not give or transmit to me any misgivings
3 other than on occasion, towards the end, he stated that the shelling of
4 the civilians was wrong, in his opinion.
5 Q. Apart from whether or not he communicated any misgivings to you,
6 did he indicate any unwillingness on his part to stay in his position,
7 whatever that position was?
8 A. Just the opposite, sir. He indicated that he intended to stay and
9 was looking forward to senior appointments and promotion within the
11 Q. One might hear those words and conclude that although he knew it
12 was wrong, he was untroubled by it and embraced it. Were you able to
13 conclude from your observations what his attitude to it was, even though
14 he knew it was wrong? And of course I am talking about the deliberate
15 shelling of civilian areas of Sarajevo.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Two remarks. This question is
19 in relation to a simple psychological consideration of a person and I
20 don't think that we could answer such -- anyone could answer such a
21 question. And the second remark is that I have a lot of difficulties
22 following. I would like to ask for everyone to slow down because I have
23 to write these corrections for the French booth. Thank you very much.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do press the question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
1 MR. IERACE: I do press the question, meaning that I understand my
2 learned colleague objects to the question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he said he made some remarks, but I think he is
4 complaining since you are asking about the judgment of the witness of
5 someone else's mind, if I am...
6 MR. IERACE: Except that the key words in my question were, "Were
7 you able to conclude from your observations." I am happy to turn the
8 question around if you wish it, Mr. President
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would like to have it more in a factual way.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. You told us that you spent many hours with him, sometimes, I think
13 you said six hours on one occasion; that you complained to him hundreds of
14 times in the period that you were in Lukavica headquarters, complained to
15 him hundreds of times about the shelling of civilian areas in Sarajevo; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And he was sufficiently candid with you on a number of those
19 occasions -- withdraw that. He was sufficiently candid with you on a
20 number of occasions that he believed it to be wrong. That's your
21 evidence, I think?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. He also conveyed to you enthusiasm in remaining in his job,
24 although he had indicated to you that he believed it was wrong?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Did you make any observations about him when he --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am really sorry, Mr.
3 President, but now the French booth is putting in the text he said
4 that "this campaign was not correct." Now, Mr. Ierace did not precisely
5 use the word "campaign," and we know why, and now it is going to be in the
6 French transcript. This is something entirely new and I have to intervene
8 JUDGE ORIE: Can you please indicate exactly on what line this
9 happened because I am not following the French?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Earlier -- I am
11 following both interpretations. Earlier, Mr. Ierace was just -- [In
12 English] Line 11, page 83.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please -- it might also have
14 been caused by the speed, of course, and that is two people speaking the
15 same language. That is what often happens. Could you please resume at
16 line -- page 83, line 11, or just before, and repeat your question so that
17 it will be properly translated. I do respect that Mr. Piletta-Zanin
18 listens to the text in his own language.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, sir.
20 MR. IERACE: Line 11 in the English transcript is halfway through
21 a sentence, so perhaps from --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I invited you a few lines before so that at least
23 line 11 is included.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you told us that you spent many hours with
1 Major Indjic, on at least one occasion, six hours. You have also told us
2 that you complained to him hundreds of times during the period that you
3 were at Lukavica headquarters about the shelling of civilian areas in
4 Sarajevo; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He was sufficiently candid with you to tell you that he knew the
7 shelling of the civilians in Sarajevo to be wrong; is that also your
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Nevertheless, he conveyed to you enthusiasm in remaining in his
11 job; is that so?
12 A. Remaining and progressing to higher levels of rank, yes.
13 Q. All right.
14 Now, that enthusiasm, was that expressed in one conversation or a
15 number of conversations?
16 A. Several conversations.
17 Q. Was it at a particular period of time, as you remember it?
18 A. It would likely have been January on, after Indjic and I developed
19 a rapport that allowed us to be candid.
20 Q. How did that enthusiasm express itself to you? Was it in the tone
21 of his voice, the words he used, his body language or what?
22 A. Generally, the phrase that he was looking forward to a long career
23 promotion. The tone of his voice conveyed enthusiasm.
24 Q. Was there anything about those factors, the words he used, the
25 tone, or his body language, which indicated to you comfort with that
1 activity of the deliberate shelling of civilians in Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes. In the sense that although he personally disagreed with it,
3 he believed that it was a necessity of doing and conducting military
4 business. He did not say that specifically, but his attitude, I suppose,
5 showed that he was not discomfort -- not terribly upset about it. It was
6 the corps plan and it was a necessary [Real-time transcript read in error
7 "unnecessary"] evil.
8 Q. Now, going back to the earlier period of your acquaintance with
9 him, in those earlier days when you complained about the shelling of
10 civilians in Sarajevo, did he, in those days, ever deny that it was
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did he ever suggest to you that you or your observers were
14 mistaken in what they saw?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he ever say that if it happened, it was uncontrollable
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And yet later, once he fell into your confidence, your evidence is
20 that he not only admitted that it happened, but that it was wrong?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In other words, your evidence is, as I understand it, and please
23 correct me if I am wrong, he ceased to deny it, admitted it and said it
24 was wrong, but necessary?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next area of my
2 examination-in-chief will concern General Galic and the remaining
3 individual that the witness has identified as a senior officer to whom he
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it would be inappropriate to start dealing with
6 that in two minutes. May I just, therefore, take it, of your last answer
7 to the question of Mr. Ierace that where the transcript says that it was
8 the Corps's plan and it was an "unnecessary evil," that you said it was a
9 necessary evil?
10 THE WITNESS: Necessary. It was required.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That is line 1 on page 86.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we adjourn, you asked me to
13 enquire and I have done that. And in relation to the witnesses to be
14 called, there is one witness where there are medical records on the
15 exhibit list, and that is Husovic. We have checked the quality of the
16 documents and the original is a very poor copy. That is not to say that
17 there are signs on it of changes being made, but simply it is poor
18 quality copy.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We have noticed that it is certain types of documents
20 where it is repeatedly found. I think it takes not more than five minutes
21 to see whether this would hinder the Defence in a specific way by
22 cross-examining that witness, so that and if true, then we will be
24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It does not have to be done necessarily today, but we
1 would need some time on next Tuesday for the evidence of the present
3 That means that we will -- since we are not sitting tomorrow,
4 since we are not sitting on Monday, that we will adjourn until next
5 Tuesday at 9.00, in the morning same courtroom, and please, Mr. -- Mr.
6 Henneberry, would you be then again be present in this courtroom?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it - I never indicated this before - but I
9 take it that there will be no further talks with the Prosecution while
10 during the next weekend, that is for you. That is so that there will be
11 no further discussions on your testimony, and especially it is a long
12 weekend. But that you will be here again on Tuesday morning and we then
13 will resume the examination-in-chief, and later on, you will be
14 cross-examined by the Defence.
15 We will adjourn until next Tuesday, 9.00 in the morning.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
18 the 21st day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.