Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8692

1 Wednesday, 22 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Yesterday evening, Ms. Pilipovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we discussed

11 for one minute a possible very short extension of the cross-examination.

12 Is it your wish to put any additional question after having put the case

13 to the witness Mr. Henneberry?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would

15 like to do it, with your leave - although we would have to clarify - that

16 before the witness arrives, the Defence would like to bring up a point.

17 We believe that we have to do this in closed session considering all the

18 implications that could arise, and therefore, it would be appropriate for

19 this to be done before the witness comes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...before we

21 conclude the examination of this witness or -- I mean, is it related to

22 this?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. This has to do with the

24 request or the motion from the Prosecution with regard to the new witness

25 called AD, but I believe we have to do it immediately because the Defence

Page 8693

1 needs to respect a certain notice and we would also like to ask your

2 Chamber to reach a decision very quickly, which is why we would like to do

3 this now, at the beginning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...for a while, Mr.

5 Ierace, unless there would be any observation from your side.

6 MR. IERACE: The only observation I would make, Mr. President, is

7 that perhaps it would be more convenient for us to finish with this

8 witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. I am afraid we -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that

10 we can't, or of course I do not know what you are going to -- what issue

11 you are going to raise. But we might not be in a position to interrupt.

12 So if it would be done before the first break, would that be sufficient

13 for you or...?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I am

15 concerned, it will all be good enough for me. I don't know whether it

16 would be good enough for your Chamber.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed session.

18 [Closed session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8694

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Page 8701

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE ORIE: And since the CS disappears from my screen, please

9 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

11 would first of all like to thank the Prosecution since they reminded us of

12 the Rule 90(H), but what happened yesterday with the witness yesterday is

13 exemplary of the difficulties that the Defence has or can encounter during

14 the cross-examination of some witnesses.

15 First of all, this is with regard to the certain declarations that

16 may have been given by General Galic. Obviously, with regard to the

17 Articles 20 and 21 of the Statute, General Galic has a right to keep

18 silence and does not have to testify unless he decides to. Now, if we say

19 that General Galic never spoke and he does not have to testify against

20 himself. Now, if the Defence lawyer within the privilege that he

21 has with his client and that he has with the 87 of the Rules, perhaps it

22 will not be possible, since this is his obligation, the Defence lawyers,

23 to speak about it in the Chamber with regards to the cross-examination of

24 a witness because of the privilege.

25 Now, with regards to the Rule 90(H), it is true, Mr. Ierace, that

Page 8702

1 the Rule has it that normally we would have to contradict the witness on

2 each point that we want to bring up, but there are certain exceptions.

3 First of all, there is the absolute right of the accused to keep silent

4 and not to testify against himself and, therefore, the Defence lawyer has

5 got an obligation to keep his secret. Now, perhaps it would be necessary,

6 Mr. President, to explain this in relation to Rule 90(H), and we believe

7 that here we have a case which is quite clear theoretically and in

8 practice. There are certain questions that I will be able to ask the

9 witness, and I thank you for it, and there are some questions that for

10 once formulated in a rather vague way so that everybody would understand

11 why am I choosing to formulate them in such a way, because I am trying to

12 find the best way to respect the form and the substance. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my friend essentially is re-arguing

15 whether indeed Rule 90 applies. He is subject to an interim order, and

16 whatever view he has as to its appropriateness, the simple fact is that

17 it does apply to him. What is required of him should take no more than 30

18 seconds. That is, if his instructions are that General Galic did not say

19 what this witness says the General said, then he must simply put it to

20 this witness that the General did not say those words or words like it.

21 What is required is nothing more than that in relation to the

22 evidence as it touches on General Galic. So far, my learned colleague has

23 tested the reliability of the witness in relation to those conversations,

24 as he is entitled to do. But to test the reliability of a witness is not

25 the same as putting to a witness that the conversation didn't happen. One

Page 8703

1 can test the reliability properly and still at a later point concede that

2 the conversation happened. This is a matter which is well within the

3 knowledge of General Galic. He knows either it was said or it wasn't. It

4 seems on my reading of what my learned colleague has just said that he has

5 in mind to ask a number of further questions of this witness. I could be

6 mistaken, but if that is his intention, then, in my respectful submission,

7 that should not happen.

8 What simply remains at this stage is that the Defence be

9 afforded the opportunity, if they want it, to put to the witness the parts

10 of his evidence which are inconsistent with the Defence case. I note that

11 during the cross-examination my learned colleague also challenged the

12 witness's reliability in relation to his evidence in respect of

13 Major Indjic.

14 It may be that my friend is in a position, given his knowledge of

15 the Defence case, to put certain things to the witness in relation to that

16 evidence as well. It is a matter for him.

17 Thank you, Mr. President.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as I told you yesterday, you may

20 ask leave to the Chamber to put additional questions to the witness, very

21 briefly, where if it is your intention to confront the witness with the

22 Defence case, then you should put it to him and then you can ask questions

23 about his earlier testimony which contradicts the Defence case. At the

24 same time, you are fully entitled and your client is fully entitled to

25 remain silent, but then there is no reason, in the view of this Chamber,

Page 8704

1 to put any additional questions to the witness. I mean, you concluded the

2 cross-examination yesterday. So if you would apply for leave to put such

3 additional questions as to confront the witness with the Defence case, and

4 you are under no obligation whatsoever to do so in this respect, we will

5 fully respect this right of the Defence and of General Galic.

6 But if you would decide that you would ask additional questions,

7 then it should be after you have put the Defence case to the witness and

8 then, of course, Rule 90(H) will apply. So it is up to the Defence on

9 whether you want to further cross-examine, but only in this limited

10 respect, the witness.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

14 there could be a middle way and I would just like to bring it up -- not to

15 suggest it, but just to bring it up. One of the questions of the Defence

16 -- one of the questions that the Defence would like to ask the witness and

17 satisfy all sides is linked to his capacity to understand -- ability to

18 understand the Serbian language and, therefore, many problems that could

19 result from the fact that this witness only had a very limited knowledge

20 of the Serbian language. So say that he was talking about this to General

21 Galic and that he was not able to hear what General Galic said directly.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...response to this

23 midway solution.

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. My learned colleague's proposed

25 line of questioning has absolutely nothing to do with Rule 90. And Rule

Page 8705

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Page 8706

1 90 does not offend the right to silence. It does not oblige the accused

2 to get into the witness box at any point. It is simply a requirement of

3 the Rules in order -- which has the effect of clarifying the issues

4 between the Prosecution and the Defence. More specifically, in relation

5 to this line of questioning, yesterday my learned colleague asked the

6 witness this question: "When you had meetings with General Galic, is it

7 true to say that you were not able to speak directly with him because you

8 do not speak Serbian?" Answer: "Yes." Question: "Therefore, you had to

9 use an interpreter?" Answer: "Yes." And then later, "Who was the

10 interpreter?" And then: "Most likely Jadranka," and so on. There were

11 further questions about the interpreter.

12 So for my learned colleague to now say that he wants to question

13 the witness as to his understanding of Serbian clearly is illogical

14 since, as he knows, the witness not only does not speak Serbian, didn't

15 speak Serbian, but relied upon an interpreter.

16 Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has decided that it

19 will maintain its decision. That means that if you -- well, at least, if

20 you apply for leave to put further questions to the witness, that Rule

21 90(H) under (ii), especially the last part, should be applied. That means

22 that your -- it was not a suggestion, but your idea on finding a midway

23 solution is not accepted by the Chamber because what Mr. Ierace told us is

24 true that yesterday it has been part of the cross-examination, part of the

25 testimony of the witness, that he could not directly communicate, because

Page 8707

1 of his lack of knowledge of the Serbian language, with General Galic.

2 So, therefore, it is now up to you on whether you want to put very

3 briefly your case where contradicted by the witness and ask him a limited

4 number of questions or that you decide not to do so.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I need time to

6 confer, please.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are just going to ask two

11 questions, Mr. President, and I would like to thank you. We will be very

12 brief. And General Galic will not disclose his case or, rather, he will

13 not use his right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...you will put the

15 case to him, or are these questions in respect of other issues? Well, of

16 course, you -- we until now discussed an extension on the

17 cross-examination on the basis of the observations made yesterday by

18 Mr. Ierace. But I do understand that you now take a different line. You

19 ask leave to put two short additional questions and you are not

20 confronting the witness with the Defence case where he --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will confront the witness

22 to his own statements.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have no objection to my learned

Page 8708

1 colleague asking some further questions in cross-examination, however,

2 again it seems, if I understand my learned colleague correctly, that he

3 is seeking to avoid Rule 90.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will not allow any circumvention of

5 Rule 90(H) under (ii). Under this condition, the Chamber allows two

6 additional questions to the witness.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you think it proper if it be

8 explained for the benefit of General Galic the effect of it not being put

9 to this witness, that his evidence, as it touches upon General Galic in

10 particular --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, thank you very much for your

12 assistance, and it is quite a new situation where the Prosecution seeks to

13 protect the accused more or less. And it is not without hesitation, but

14 let me just first ask a question, perhaps to General Galic.

15 General Galic, I take it that since we had earlier discussions on

16 Rule 90(H), that you fully understand what this Rule is about and that you

17 also fully understand the consequences of not putting questions to the

18 witness specifically on that part of his testimony where he tells the

19 Chamber about meetings he had with you and the content of that meeting.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for giving

21 me this time to give my opinion with regard to Rule 90(H). First of all,

22 I would like to say that I am not very good in understanding the Rules,

23 and I am not an expert and I have trouble in interpreting them. This is

24 the first remark I have in response to your question.

25 The second is that during the two years since the indictment was

Page 8709

1 issued or, rather, the time of the indictment which is covered, the two

2 years, there have been many discussions and many meetings and briefings,

3 but the discussion of such nature and the declaration of such nature is

4 illogical, is incompatible with my position, with the situation that I was

5 in, and the political and military situation that the army of Republika

6 Srpska was in.

7 That is why I think that it can be concluded logically that in

8 relation to that Rule and your question, Your Honours, that is all I would

9 like to say.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then just try to explain, one of the risks of

11 this situation might be: That if we are just talking about logics and if

12 we are just talking about reliability, without putting the Defence case to

13 the witness and ask him specific questions on meetings and the content of

14 the meetings, later on, it could be understood as the testimony of the

15 witness on these specific issues - I am talking about the meetings -

16 whether they took place or not, the content of the meeting, was not

17 contested by the Defence. That is, I think, the major issue.

18 And of course, it is the Defence who finally decides what its

19 position will be, what will be contested, what will not be contested,

20 whether they will just want to limit the issue to whether it is logical,

21 what the witness said, and not putting directly to him that either the

22 meetings did not take place or that the content of the meetings was --

23 that the content of the discussions was not the content as it appears from

24 the earlier testimony.

25 If the Defence would need more time - I am not talking about days

Page 8710

1 - but if you would like to have an adjournment for 10 minutes, the

2 Chamber will gladly allow you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like

4 to have a five minute break, but we would like to indicate that the

5 reasons for our determination is strategic since the Prosecution can also

6 see what is at play. We would like to respect the right to silence, but

7 you can see how much the -- how much the Rules 90(H) and 97 are in

8 contradiction and how many problems we are having. We will need just five

9 minutes. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 10.00.

11 --- Break taken at 9.54 a.m.

12 --- Upon resuming at 10.05 a.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving the Defence the opportunity to express

14 itself, I would take the opportunity, first of all, to explain perhaps a

15 bit more in detail Rule 90(H) under (i). Rule 90(H) under (i) says that,

16 "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject-matter of the

17 evidence-in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness

18 and, where the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for

19 the cross-examining party, to the subject-matter of that case."

20 It is only in respect of this last part of Rule 90(H), that is, if

21 the cross-examination would go beyond the subject matter of the evidence

22 in chief and does not concern the credibility of the witness, it is only

23 to that last part that Rule 90(H)(ii) applies, that is, that the witness

24 who is able to give evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining

25 party so that this is not on the subject of the evidence in chief or

Page 8711

1 matters affecting the credibility, only then counsel shall put to that

2 witness the nature of that case of the party for whom that counsel

3 appears, and which contradicts the evidence given by the witness.

4 Of course, this Chamber does not know what questions would be put

5 to the witness by the Defence. And if there would be any reason that the

6 Prosecution would think that it would be necessary in respect of a

7 particular question that the case should be put to the witness, we will

8 hear from the Prosecution. Of course, we cannot predict what questions

9 you would put to the witness. The Defence will have an opportunity to put

10 one or two questions, but they asked for two questions, two questions to

11 the witness. But, of course, not those questions covered already by the

12 cross-examination yesterday.

13 Madam Registrar, would you -- let me just first ask: Is there any

14 need, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to put additional questions to the witness?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. There

16 will be two or three additional questions in relation to Rule 90(H).

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 90(H). Under (i) or under (ii)? We will hear

18 from that from you. Let's not try to guess and ask you to give

19 information. We will hear your questions and then we will be in a

20 position to decide.

21 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I only rise to my feet to seek the

23 opportunity, not now, but at a later point and perhaps in writing, to

24 respectfully put some submissions in relation to the interpretation by the

25 Trial Chamber of 90(H)(ii). Thank you.

Page 8712

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Usher, [Realtime transcript read in

2 error "Registrar"] would you please escort Mr. Henneberry into the

3 courtroom.

4 Just for the transcript, I was not asking Madam Registrar, but

5 Madam Usher, to escort Mr. Henneberry into the courtroom.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly, I

7 would just like to stress that there is a difficult -- difficulty that the

8 lawyers note very well, which is the probatio diabolico since we are going

9 to find ourselves in this case and I would like to draw attention to

10 this. Thank you.

11 For the transcript, probatio diabolico.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Henneberry.

13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise that you had to wait for such a long time

15 but procedural issues were asking our attention. Mr. Henneberry, I may -

16 perhaps unnecessarily - but remind you that you are still bound by the

17 solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

18 Before being re-examined by the Prosecution, there are not more than three

19 questions to be put to you by the Defence.

20 WITNESS: PATRICK HENNEBERRY [Resumed]

21 THE WITNESS: Before we start, is there a volume control on this?

22 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the machine in front of you but Madam Usher

23 will assist you.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

Page 8713

1 Q. Mr. Henneberry, bonjour.

2 A. Bonjour.

3 Q. [In English] Thank you very much for this. I appreciate.

4 [Interpretation] I would just like to ask you to continue

5 answering in French because that will be a lot easier for everyone. Now,

6 sir, this is what I would like say: Now, the Defence contests resolutely

7 not only the alleged meeting of the 16th of December, as well as anything

8 that may have taken place at it, and I would like you to confirm clearly

9 what you stated on the 2nd of July, 2000, in your witness statement, in

10 your written statement that I have before me, and that I will read to you

11 in a minute, and its reference number is 01008958.

12 And I am going to now quote what you said so I am now going to go

13 into English, with a pause. [In English] "I didn't have ready access to

14 him since he was at a rank above which I would usually do." Full stop.

15 [Interpretation] Sir, do you confirm that this is what you have

16 stated --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Two points, Mr. President. The transcript

19 reads: "above which I would usually do." I think my friend meant to

20 say, "above which I would usually deal," that is d-e-a-l.

21 Secondly, my learned colleague asked the witness to read out this

22 yesterday onto the transcript, which he did, so it is repetitive and lacks

23 any relevance.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not in the transcript -- well, in the

25 transcript, I see first part of a question. Is there anything else you

Page 8714

1 would like to --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Well, I would like to go ahead with the

3 question, sir.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 Q. Sir, you stated in July 2000 that you did not have ready access to

7 General Galic from the fact that you are at the rank below, and yesterday

8 you stated that this didn't count for you. Wouldn't you here have to

9 admit that on one of these two occasions, you did not tell the truth?

10 A. No, sir, I believe there was a misinterpretation or perhaps I

11 didn't state clearly when I said that it didn't count for me. I stand by,

12 "I didn't have ready access to General Galic." I also stand by the fact

13 that I met several times with him. Generally, I would go through our

14 liaison officer, Colonel Jakovic, or deal with most matters directly with

15 the Corps Chief of Staff or operations officer. But I did meet with him

16 several times. He was, however, not my first point of contact to deal

17 with issues. I was to go through his staff and try to resolve them that

18 way.

19 Q. Sir, since this meeting of the 16th of December is contested as

20 having taken place, how come that since you took your time in looking over

21 your statements and to modify some of them completely, that you cannot

22 produce a single official document in order to prove that this meeting had

23 taken place on the 16th of December?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: My learned colleague has put to the witness that he

Page 8715

1 modified some of his statements, and once more, did so completely. I

2 think, in my respectful submission, that can't be put. If my learned

3 colleague thinks that, then he is obliged to take the witness to those

4 modifications.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... a --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, gladly. We

7 spoke about it at length yesterday. I asked the witness yesterday how

8 come that in his statement from July 2000 he never mentioned the contents

9 of the meeting that is being alleged today, the words that General Galic

10 supposed to have added, and he almost miraculously produced them later,

11 asked by I don't know whom.

12 Now, these modifications obviously seem to be additional, and I

13 believe that an addition is also a modification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not lose ourselves in plays of words.

15 Mr. Henneberry, is the question clear to you? The question is:

16 Why -- what could explain that quite some new elements in your testimony

17 in this court compared to what was in your original statement, original

18 statement, the statement given before, what is the explanation of these

19 new elements --

20 THE WITNESS: I understand, sir.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- coming up?

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due

24 respect, that was not the question. The question was: Why there is no

25 official document brought here to support this modification of statement

Page 8716

1 of the witness. It is not why he changed the statement. He said that he

2 looked over his documents, et cetera. But what I am saying is why there

3 is not an official document which would establish this. Thank you, Mr.

4 President. That was the question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I misrepresented your question, I fully agree with

6 that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So that is the question. I was mainly

7 concentrating on what was an addition. Let's talk about new elements.

8 That is, I think, a fair representation of that part and why it is not

9 supported by any official document or whatever document.

10 THE WITNESS: I understand the question. So may I answer that

11 then?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

13 THE WITNESS: The reason, sir, is there were no -- if you mean by

14 an "official document" a transcript or something, we didn't keep notes or

15 secretaries did not keep notes on the United Nations side for most of

16 these meetings. The meetings were routine - not necessarily the meeting

17 between General Galic and I - but there were several meetings and we had

18 sometimes a dozen a day. I would like to add, sir, that my feelings and

19 thoughts on the days were captured on notes like this. This single page

20 represents seven days. That was my diary.

21 So, I didn't put down everything. Some important details, as you

22 call them, sir, such as when five of my colleagues were injured

23 previously, that was becoming routine as well. You won't find that in a

24 document but there are many medical records to back that up. That would

25 be my response, sir.

Page 8717

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. But, sir, the very last question, you, therefore, confirm that

3 there is no document, no official document, in relation to -- either to

4 the alleged meeting of the 16th December which is still contested by the

5 Defence or in relation to the alleged words spoken by General Galic at the

6 time of the meeting?

7 A. The only document would be my diary, sir, and you are correct,

8 there is no official document on my part that would state the proceedings

9 of the meeting.

10 Q. Sir, could you please take one page of your diary. Could you just

11 take it up.

12 A. [Previous translation continues]...the diary?

13 Q. Yes, that is correct. Could you please just show it. This, sir,

14 is the only element of any nature, either official or not, which would

15 show that there was an alleged meeting of the 16th of December; is that

16 correct?

17 A. No, sir. There are United Nations documents, perhaps Colonel

18 Mole's official documents and the agenda or reports by the senior military

19 observer that may have those. I personally don't know of them, but I was

20 not the only person at the meeting so I don't know.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. No

22 further questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the transcript, the witness showed

Page 8718

1 us a piece of paper which is approximately of the size of 10 centimetres

2 by 5 centimetres, in which is filled by small handwriting.

3 Mr. Ierace.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

5 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you just said, "I was not the only person at the

6 meeting." You also said in cross-examination that there was an

7 interpreter present. I think you said his name was Jadranka. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Jadranka, sir.

10 Q. How do you spell that?

11 A. The interpreter Jadranka was Y-a-d-r-a-n as in "Nicholas" k-o.

12 And if I may, sir, I believe I mentioned that I thought she was probably

13 there as she was the normal one we used. I can't confirm positively that

14 she was there

15 JUDGE ORIE: Would the last letter be an "A" or an "O"?

16 THE WITNESS: An "A".

17 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript, it is "Jadranka" instead of

18 "Jadranko."

19 THE WITNESS: The "Y," as well, sir, may be a "J," depending on

20 the pronunciation.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. I think you said that during cross-examination that she was of

23 Serbian ethnicity. Was she -- who was she? Was she a United Nations

24 interpreter or an interpreter for the SRK or who?

25 A. She was a local person in the employ of the United Nations, as

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13 English transcripts.

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15

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18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8720

1 most of the interpreters were.

2 Q. Had you experienced any problems with the quality of her

3 interpreting on past occasions?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. If it wasn't her, then who else might it have been?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry that I have to

8 intervene, for the reasons that you know already. This has to do with the

9 transcript. I could see on several occasions that the French transcript

10 does not carry the entirety of what is being said. For instance, here the

11 half of the page has not been transcribed and I would like to -- I would

12 like everything to be transcribed as accurately as possible. Thank you

13 very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Half of what page? I do not understand you,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. It seems that

17 half of the line which I just indicated which is now gone from my screen

18 has not been translated into French, and this is not the first time. Page

19 6, line 17 -- 26, line 17, I believe. In any case, page 26, line 11, and

20 then -- and then line 17 and 18 of page 26.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...read those parts

22 not translated which would make it easier to --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. Now, the first

24 one, the first one we have is expressions "depending on the

25 pronunciation," which has not been translated. This isn't very

Page 8721

1 important. And then the second thing which was very important, this was

2 the line 16, 17 and 18. I believe that the half sentence as most of the

3 interpreters were -- was not translated. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is line -- that is page 26, line 17, 18.

5 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. If it wasn't her that provided the interpretation on that

8 occasion, who else might it have been?

9 A. It most likely would have been an interpreter working for General

10 Galic and his headquarters.

11 Q. Coming back to that last answer that you gave in

12 cross-examination, could you tell us who else was present apart from the

13 people you have so far identified, that is yourself, Lieutenant Mole?

14 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Mole, yes.

15 Q. General Galic, one interpreter, perhaps Ms. Jadranko --

16 Ms. Jadranka. Who else?

17 A. That was all, sir.

18 Q. Now, yesterday, you were taken through certain passages in the

19 redacted form of your diary that you provided to the OTP on the 2nd of

20 October, 2000. Do you have a copy of that in front of you?

21 A. I have my original unredacted version. I don't have the redacted

22 version with me.

23 Q. Perhaps I could just check whether the page numbers correspond.

24 Would you go to page 18?

25 A. I don't have pages on this, sir. The date perhaps might -- the

Page 8722

1 dates would correspond.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be handed an

3 unmarked copy of Exhibit P646. I have a copy at the bar table.

4 Q. I think you now have a copy of the relevant document. Would you

5 please turn to page 18? The page number is indicated on the bottom left

6 hand corner.

7 A. Yes, sir, I have it.

8 Q. Yesterday, you were asked to read certain passages from the entry

9 for the 27th of November. Firstly, that, of course, is the 27th of

10 November, 1992. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. You explained that passages made in italics were made by you

13 after the original diary entry. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you make those comments at the time you constructed this

16 redacted version of your diary, that is, for its forwarding in October

17 2000 or at an earlier time?

18 A. At an earlier time, sir.

19 Q. Do you remember when it was that you made those comments which

20 appear in italics?

21 A. 9 November 1996. I say that because it is on my original copy.

22 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday, you were asked or, rather, I should say

23 certain words were read out from that entry, those words being: "Reports

24 of 15.000 Muslim troops from Igman led by German including Leopard tanks."

25 And then these words: "The hill overlooked most of the downtown area and

Page 8723

1 whoever held it could bring fire to bear on the downtown." End quote.

2 Do you remember that those words were put to you yesterday?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And then Mr. Piletta-Zanin said to you, "We are talking about the

5 Olic hill." Do you remember that? Or "Zuc Olic hill," something to that

6 effect.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, that last sense appears in italics in this document, doesn't

9 it?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And then underneath the paragraph in which that sentence appears,

12 is there a further paragraph in italics?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Do these words appear in that further paragraph, and I remind you

15 of the earlier reference to reports of 15.000 Muslim troops from Igman

16 lead by a German, including Leopard tanks. I will now quote the words

17 from the following paragraph: "The report of a German commanding 15.000

18 troops plus Leopard tanks was never proven or disproved. Personally, I

19 don't think it was true. The German supposedly commanding was said to

20 have been an ex-colonel in the German army. However, the report of 15.000

21 troops on Mount Igman continued through to January. I believe there was

22 some truth to the report because the Serb Corps made thorough and

23 expensive preparations to repel a ground attack from Igman."

24 Do those words appear?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 8724

1 Q. All right. If you please go to page --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. Just so that

3 there is no problem in interpretation. I would like to ask my learned

4 colleague if he can also give the commas and full stops so that there is

5 no misunderstanding. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There don't seems to be any misunderstanding.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. If you go over the page, certain words were read out from your

10 entry for the 5th of December. The words which were read out

11 were: "Front line destruction, tanks, vehicles, buildings, animals,

12 people."

13 Is that the case?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if you go to the beginning, first of all, for that entry, are

16 the first words after "5 December," "Otes offensive Thursday, Muslims 500

17 killed in action." Do those words appear?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Beneath it, that is, beneath that paragraph, is there a paragraph

20 in italics?

21 A. There is, sir.

22 Q. And in that paragraph, do you give something of an overview of

23 what that report was all about?

24 A. I do, sir.

25 Q. In the last sentence of that paragraph, do these words

Page 8725

1 appear: "This incident appears to have happened on Thursday, 3 December,

2 but I didn't write it down until 5 December."

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Coming back to the beginning of that italicised paragraph, do you

5 explain that Otes was a small suburb of Sarajevo that had been held by the

6 Muslims?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Do you say further that you "watched the battle from a hillside

9 and thought it a classic ground battle except without the tanks."

10 A. That is there, sir.

11 Q. Do you say these words: "I had never seen such a concentrated

12 artillery and ground attack at that point. The outcome was that the Serbs

13 took most of Otes"?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,

15 but the French booth is asking me to slow down Mr. Ierace since they are

16 having difficulties, it seems.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please slow down your speed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And also could Mr. Ierace

19 repeat his last question, the way it appears in the transcript. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It appears in the transcript as I remember having

22 heard it. And that was do you say these words --

23 MR. IERACE: I think there are some words missing.

24 THE COURT: Then please repeat you question.

25 MR. IERACE:

Page 8726

1 Q. Do you say these words: "I had never seen such a concentrated

2 artillery and ground attack to that point." Full stop. "The outcome was

3 that the Serbs took most of Otes." Full stop.

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Now, coming back to the words that were drawn to your attention

6 in cross-examination, "Front line destruction, tanks, vehicles, buildings,

7 animals, people," is that a reference to destruction on both sides of the

8 confrontation line or the Bosnian government side or the Sarajevo

9 Romanija Corps side?

10 A. That is on the Bosnian government side. As we refer to it, the

11 Muslim side, sir.

12 Q. Above it, the line above, do you say: "Went to L-3, watched

13 Ilidza take hundreds of incoming burning civilian areas"?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. On what part of the confrontation line were those incoming

16 received?

17 A. I don't --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I apologise. I apologise.

19 The interpretation in French is saying, "taking hundreds of civilian zones

20 in flames." Now, I don't see the word "incoming." That has been omitted.

21 This is incoming, is fire is what has been coming into the area. That has

22 to appear in the transcript. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You read the words literally, I take it, Mr. Ierace.

24 Perhaps the witness could explain what "incoming" exactly means in this

25 respect.

Page 8727

1 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I am just trying to find that here.

2 MR. IERACE: Second line.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that specific incident as I sit here,

4 but the incoming to Ilidza refers to rounds landing on Ilidza, rounds that

5 were fired by the Serb side on to the Muslim side.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification.

7 Mr. Ierace, if there would be a suitable moment --

8 MR. IERACE: That is suitable, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication on how much time you

10 would still need for the re-examination approximately?

11 MR. IERACE: No more than 10 minutes

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 10 minutes past 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

14 --- on resuming at 11.14 a.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Ms. Pilipovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

16 issue you raised this morning in closed session, the Chamber expects that

17 it can give a decision after the next break. Yes.

18 Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Mr. Henneberry, remaining on the same page, that is page 19, would

21 you now please turn your attention to the entry for 7 December. These

22 words were read out to you: "Heavy shelling in barracks. Multiple rocket

23 launcher impacts. Muslims new weapons in area."

24 Now, first of all, are there other words which appear in between

25 the words which were read out?

Page 8728

1 A. That was for 7 December, sir?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I am sorry, I missed -- I can't seem to find that here.

4 Q. Before the break, I took you to 5 December.

5 A. Yes, sir, I am on 7 December. I am just looking for your quote

6 here.

7 Q. I think the first words that appear alongside 7 December are

8 "heavy shelling in barracks." Do you see those words?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And I think those words were drawn to your attention yesterday.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After those words in italics, do these words appear: "Lukavica

13 barracks HQ for UNMO L call signs and for the Sarajevo Romanija Corps"?

14 A. They do, sir.

15 Q. Next words which appear after that are: "25 multiple rocket

16 launcher impacts within 100 metre."

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. "Buildings on fire, several wounded, seven killed."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, did you mean by that entry that there were 25 multiple

21 rocket launcher impacts within an area of 100 metres or did you mean

22 something else in relation to the reference to 100 meters?

23 A. I meant within 100 metres of my headquarters in Lukavica, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is

Page 8729

1 extremely important in these questions. I am sorry to interrupt

2 Mr. Ierace but it is very important that the interpretation is very

3 precise. We are here talking about an impact of a multiple rocket

4 launcher and it was not interpreted by the booth, and this is important

5 because both army used it -- both armies used it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you slow down a bit, Mr. Ierace, we

7 might have less problems.

8 It does appear, however, from the answer that it was impact within

9 100 metres from the headquarters of the witness in Lukavica, which might

10 explain something. But if you could just read that part which is not

11 translated so that we could --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the current page, line

13 10, and the text says the following, [In English] that "There were 25

14 multiple rocket launcher impacts." This addition of multiple rocket

15 launcher was not interpreted and that is important for the French

16 transcript, for the reasons that you already know. Thank you, Mr.

17 President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So, this has been then corrected.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, I think your evidence is - please correct me if I am wrong -

22 that your headquarters at Lukavica were in the same building as the

23 office of General Galic. Is that correct or not?

24 A. That is correct, sir.

25 Q. Therefore, it follows that the rocket impacts were within 100

Page 8730

1 metres of the headquarters of the SRK. Is that correct?

2 A. Correct, sir.

3 Q. Of the several wounded and seven killed, do you know how many were

4 combatants?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. All right. Would you please now turn to page 26, in particular,

7 an entry for 25 December. The last words on your diary entry were read

8 out. Those words were: "Meeting Galic - Mole - I, boring," followed by

9 three exclamation marks, "Airport road open."

10 A. Correct, sir.

11 Q. Does that entry begin with the words: "Said goodbye to Mole"?

12 A. It does, sir.

13 Q. Following the diary entry in italics, do you state: "This was

14 Lieutenant-Colonel Mole's last day"?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Did the meeting with Galic and Mole have anything to do with the

17 fact that it was Mole's last day?

18 A. It did, sir.

19 Q. Was anything discussed beyond niceties to do with the fact that it

20 was Mole's last day?

21 A. There was, sir.

22 Q. What was that?

23 A. Colonel Mole expressed some frustration by way of a reminder to

24 General Galic that the siege of Sarajevo - that may not have been the word

25 he used, but that was the intent - was ongoing, that little progress had

Page 8731

1 been made, that the shelling and activities continued. I believe General

2 Galic again in a -- with some frustration on his part, restated his

3 frustration with the Muslim forces and their activities towards Serbian

4 civilians and whatnot.

5 Q. All right. Do you remember why it was that you used the

6 word "boring" in your diary?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Why was that?

9 A. It was -- the meeting was intended as a farewell. There was

10 little of substance in the sense of both Colonel Mole and General Galic

11 restating things that had already been said, and at that point, short of a

12 significant incident such as the air corridor I mentioned previously, I

13 felt that my job was out coordinating patrols, talking to brigades and

14 whatnot. This particular meeting took me away from what I felt was my

15 primary or most important function.

16 Q. Thank you for that. The next entry is the 26th of December. On

17 the second line, do these words appear, and also on the third line: "Need

18 to brief Galic and local commander at L-2"?

19 A. They do, sir.

20 Q. Having regard to the preceding words, was that proposed briefing

21 of General Galic on your part in relation to the air operations agreement?

22 A. It was, sir.

23 Q. Do you recollect whether that meeting took place?

24 A. It did, sir.

25 Q. Do you remember when?

Page 8732

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Now, would you please go to 4 August, which is on page five.

3 These words were read out during cross-examination: "Muslim

4 funeral shelled," and I pause to note that the word "Muslim" is in

5 italics, " - news blames Serbs - I am not sure." And then do these words

6 appear after that, firstly in brackets and italics: "(I have)," end

7 italics, "much sympathy for common locals." Full stop. "Still objective."

8 Full stop.

9 A. That appears, sir.

10 Q. And do those words reflect sympathy on your part for the locals

11 in Sarajevo?

12 A. Those words reflect sympathy at that time primarily for the

13 civilians and the innocents, as I called them, on the Serbian side. I had

14 not yet been exposed much to the Bosnian or the Muslims inside Sarajevo.

15 Q. Do these words also appear in the same passage, being words that

16 were read out yesterday: "Both sides continue shelling each other"?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. All right. Now, you were asked questions about the shelling of

19 the funeral and you said in response to those questions that -- firstly,

20 there were strong indications or a strong probability that the Muslim

21 forces had fired on their fellow citizens during a funeral. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. You were asked whether that was a common thought by most UNMOs,

25 and you said that it was.

Page 8733

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

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Page 8734

1 A. Correct, sir.

2 Q. Are you aware of whether any investigation was carried out in

3 relation to the shelling of any funerals which established that the source

4 of fire was within the confrontation lines, that is, on the Bosnian

5 government side?

6 A. Yes, sir. Some investigations took place. In order to accurately

7 determine where fire commenced from, one must conduct what is called a

8 crater analysis, a scientific, a military, technological look at the

9 impact ground. With respect to the funeral, I don't know that a crater

10 analysis was done. I am aware that, as a minimum, an informal

11 investigation was conducted by the United Nations, perhaps more than that.

12 Q. Is that in relation to the incident on the 4th of August?

13 A. It is, sir.

14 Q. All right. Do you know whether any investigations were carried

15 out in relation to the shelling of funerals at any other time with the

16 finding that the shell had originated within the Bosnian government

17 territory of the confrontation lines?

18 A. Speaking specifically to funerals, I don't recall. Other

19 incidents were investigated. And I believe, for political reasons, no

20 public categorical statement that the Muslims were shelling their own was

21 made. However, it was, if I can use the term "common knowledge" that the

22 investigations strongly pointed to the fact that the Muslim forces did, on

23 occasion, shell their own civilians.

24 Q. In relation to those investigations which strongly pointed to the

25 shells having originated on the Bosnian government side, do you recollect

Page 8735

1 the nature of the impact points?

2 A. Specific areas are you enquiring about?

3 Q. Not so much specific areas, but types of targets, if you have that

4 recollection.

5 A. The marketplace and gathering points were common target areas,

6 whether people were queueing for water, United Nations' aid, or buying

7 what little there was available in the markets. Those were common areas.

8 Q. Can you be more specific as to dates in relation to those targets?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Can you at least indicate whether any of those incidents that you

11 have referred to occurred after mid-September 1992?

12 A. They did, sir.

13 Q. Going through those individually, you say: "People queueing for

14 water." How many investigations are you aware of where the results

15 strongly pointed to the shell or shells having originated on the Bosnian

16 government side?

17 A. Off the top of my head, I can recall four that I believe stated

18 that the shells were fired by the Bosnian Muslims on to their own

19 people.

20 Q. Can you assist us with where those water queues were?

21 A. All of the incidents I am talking about were generally inside,

22 well inside, the city boundary of Sarajevo and well inside the known line

23 of confrontation inside the -- excuse me -- the Muslim area. I cannot

24 provide addresses at the moment. I simply have forgotten that detail.

25 Q. What was your source of information in relation to these specific

Page 8736

1 investigations, that is, where the shelling originated on the Bosnian

2 government side?

3 A. The source I believed most was the reports from the UN

4 headquarters in the PTT and briefings that I attended on the UNMO side at

5 the PTT routinely. They did make the news, the radio, that I heard, but

6 very early on, I learned not to believe the news.

7 Q. Who gave the briefings in the PTT?

8 A. If it was a United Nations briefing, it was usually given by the

9 operation staff at UN -- at the UN level as opposed to the UNMO level.

10 The operations staff would consist of intelligence and operations people.

11 Specifically, I recall a French officer an operations person and a

12 Canadian officer on the UNMO side. If it was a briefing internal to the

13 UNMOs, it would be given by the senior military observer or his deputy.

14 Q. Okay. Now, first of all, in relation to the briefings given by

15 the operations staff, you say that you recall a French officer and a

16 Canadian officer. What was the name of the French officer?

17 A. I don't recall, sir.

18 Q. What was the name of the Canadian officer?

19 A. I've forgotten his first name, but it was Major Jackson, and his

20 first name is somewhere in my diary.

21 Q. Do you recall a time frame for, firstly, the French officer, that

22 is, a period of time during which he gave these briefings?

23 A. Given that I was attending as a senior UNMO at that time, it

24 would have been late fall, perhaps early winter, after sort of

25 mid-October onward. Most likely in December.

Page 8737

1 Q. Can you give us a time frame for Jackson, that is, the Canadian

2 officer?

3 A. Earlier than that. I couldn't state a specific end date, but he

4 was in Sarajevo when I arrived and was there for -- there until at least

5 two months after. So I would estimate into October, and the briefings

6 would have been a weekly briefing that I would have attended on only a

7 couple of occasions in that time frame.

8 Q. That is the time frame of about two months; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And I think you said that you arrived in July?

11 A. Correct, sir. End of July.

12 Q. Yes. So we are talking effectively about the months of August and

13 September; would that be correct?

14 A. Correct, sir.

15 Q. Now, you said that you attended -- I am sorry, you said that the

16 briefing on the UNMO side would be given by the senior military observer

17 or his deputy?

18 A. Correct, sir.

19 Q. Who was the senior military officer when you first arrived?

20 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Grey from, I believe, the Australian army.

21 Q. Do you recall the name of his deputy?

22 A. If not immediately, then certainly shortly after my arrival, his

23 deputy was Major James De Rosenroll from the Canadian army.

24 Q. Could you please spell his first name?

25 A. D -- correction: Small d-e, space, capital R-o-s-e-n as in

Page 8738

1 "Nicholas" r-o-l. I believe there is a second "L" at the end.

2 Q. Now, when did Lieutenant-Colonel Grey leave that position?

3 A. Within a week or two, perhaps three, after our arrival, I

4 believe. At that time, I was a commander of a single site and was not

5 used to the overall procedures yet. So I can't be more specific than

6 that. It was shortly after our arrival, though.

7 Q. Was he then replaced by Lieutenant-Colonel Mole or someone else?

8 A. By Lieutenant-Colonel Mole.

9 Q. And Lieutenant-Colonel Mole was the senior military observer

10 until the 25th of December, 1992; is that correct?

11 A. Correct, sir.

12 Q. Clearly any briefings, therefore, that were given by the senior

13 military officer from mid-August until the 25th of December would have

14 been given by him; is that correct?

15 A. Correct, sir, or Major de Rosenroll as his deputy, but the senior

16 officer was Colonel Mole.

17 Q. Certainly, if they were given by his deputy, you would expect

18 Lieutenant-Colonel Mole to be aware of them?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Mole was replaced by Cutler; is that correct?

21 A. Correct, sir.

22 Q. And was he the senior military observer until when you left?

23 A. He was, sir.

24 Q. Now, I think you said there were two sources of these briefings:

25 One was the senior military observer or his deputy and the second was the

Page 8739

1 operations staff of the UN in the PTT building; is that correct?

2 A. Correct, sir.

3 Q. Would you expect the senior military observer to be aware of the

4 content of briefings given by the operations staff?

5 A. Undoubtedly, sir.

6 Q. Now, if I understand your evidence correctly, it is that the most

7 reliable information that you had to the effect that sites such as water

8 queues or marketplaces or aid sites were shelled from sources within the

9 confrontation lines were from these two types of briefings, both of which

10 were held in the PTT building; is that correct?

11 A. Correct, sir.

12 Q. All right. And did you understand that there were strong

13 indications from investigations carried out on shellings of some of these

14 sites that the source of fire was from within the confrontation line?

15 A. That was frequently the case, yes, sir.

16 Q. All right. You were also asked yesterday in cross-examination

17 whether women were members of the ABiH, and you said that they were. In

18 what roles did you observe women in the ABiH?

19 A. I can't state that I knew their roles. I did see them in uniform

20 amongst soldiers or relatively senior ABiH staff or people.

21 Q. It is interesting that you say you saw them in uniform. You were

22 there until February 1993. Can you tell us in what sort of places you

23 saw women in uniform on the ABiH side?

24 A. The best way to describe the two that I can recall, one would be

25 downtown in the vicinity of the Presidency building, generally milling

Page 8740

1 about with other soldiers, and one was definitely on the road between

2 Sarajevo and Rajlovac on the front line, on the Muslim side, with two to

3 three other soldiers.

4 Q. Can you remember any other specific instances where you saw women

5 in a situation which clearly communicated to you that they were within the

6 ABiH?

7 A. No, sir, not at this time.

8 Q. All right. On both of those occasions, they were in uniform, I

9 think you said?

10 A. Correct, sir.

11 Q. Yesterday, you were also asked some questions about the

12 significance of someone in the position of Major Indjic revealing to you

13 information on a corps plan. You were asked if that would be a very

14 important fact and you said: "Important for a number of reasons."

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise but, again, the

17 French interpretation is talking of a corps or, rather, should be talking

18 about a corps plan since yesterday, if you remember, Mr. President, we

19 were talking about an Army Corps plan. So this is just for the

20 transcript. This is about what has just been said by my learned

21 colleague, and I have a line before me.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that page 46, line 16, "information on a corps

23 plan"?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is right. The first part

25 of line 16 of the current page.

Page 8741

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for practical purposes,

2 if you would have said, "I am sorry, Mr. President, but line 46

3 -- page 46, line 16, a corps plan has not been translated into French,"

4 that would have easily been done. That is the quickest and shortest way

5 of dealing with it.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. What were those reasons?

10 A. The several reasons were that I knew up front from the first

11 moment, based on training and experience, that as an intelligence officer,

12 major -- then captain but later Major Indjic, was trying to develop me as

13 a contact. He was going to try to use me. That is clear. That is what

14 anyone should do. Perhaps he knew as well that I was going to do the same

15 thing. Traditionally, intelligence officers will develop a contact, but I

16 did not have an intelligence officer, so I had to do that myself. That is

17 what I was attempting to do with Major Indjic. I also had to report back

18 what he was telling me, and it would be corroborated or not with other

19 information by the UN intelligence people at the PTT.

20 If two or more sources corroborated what Major Indjic said, that

21 would give him a certain reliability status as a contact, whereas, if his

22 information was not corroborated or was wrong, it would tell us another

23 thing.

24 Q. In relation to the specific information that he gave you, that it

25 was a corps plan, did you have source of -- withdraw that. Did you, in

Page 8742

1 fact, have corroboration?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Please --

4 A. When I say, "I had corroboration," that was corroborated by the

5 intelligence and operations people in the PTT and then the UN

6 intelligence and operations people in the PTT, and that information that

7 there was a plan was relayed to me.

8 Q. What was the nature of the corroborative material?

9 A. I don't know, sir. It would then have been other sources and

10 good intelligence people won't reveal all of their sources.

11 Q. Do you recollect the names of those intelligence and operations

12 people? I am not asking you to state them in open court, but do you

13 recollect them?

14 A. No, sir. Other than Major Jackson was probably one of them as a

15 senior operations person, but specifically, no.

16 Q. Are there any other reasons that you had in mind when you said

17 that there are a number of reasons?

18 A. Yes. Because if Major Indjic turned out to be a reliable contact,

19 his information could streamline certain issues, could save UN or other

20 lives, and perhaps as importantly, if he was giving me reliable

21 information, he would be expecting something in return. And I would have

22 to then determine how much information I could give him in order to

23 maintain the open relationship or, in essence, maintain him as a contact,

24 to use him, so to speak.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Henneberry.

Page 8743

1 MR. IERACE: That concludes re-examination, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. It was a bit more than 10 minutes,

3 but I think it was not unfair to the Defence to allow you to continue.

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, according to

6 the Rule, there are certain new points that have been raised by Mr.

7 Ierace and the Defence is applying for leave to your Chamber to ask some

8 brief questions with regards to these new points.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, thank you again. The Prosecution asked

14 you certain questions about Ilidza and you were asked about some questions

15 about acts in Ilidza. Do you remember?

16 A. What acts in Ilidza? Sir, I don't recall the name Ilidza. Are

17 you talking the funeral, sir?

18 Q. I am sorry, I am talking about Ilidza. I am talking about

19 Ilidza. Could you tell us, please, which side was in control of that part

20 of Ilidza?

21 A. In the main, it was the Muslim side, but I would have to see a

22 map to make a better determination. It may have been totally in their

23 control, but I would have to see a map.

24 Q. Sir, if you are not certain, you would not exclude the possibility

25 that a large part of that territory was in Serbian hands?

Page 8744

1 A. Without looking at a map, you are right, sir, I cannot state that.

2 Q. Thank you. Sir, you were asked about a meeting which allegedly

3 took place on the 25th of December. Do you remember?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, who according to you, would have -- and this is a

6 conditional: Who would have attended this meeting apart from the persons

7 that you told us about?

8 A. There would have been an interpreter as well, and that was most

9 likely all. So a total of four.

10 Q. Including yourself?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And who would have been the interpreter?

13 A. Either Jadranka of our employ or an interpreter of General

14 Galic's. Perhaps both, but I simply don't recall.

15 Q. It is, however, true that we can consider that you do not recall

16 this?

17 A. The interpreters? That is correct, sir.

18 Q. Sir, earlier, you were asked about the shellings that took place

19 in Sarajevo and your statement was quoted recalling the following

20 elements, [In English] "Confrontation lines."

21 May I ask you to clarify that your statement -- in your statement

22 it said that it was possible that the Bosnian government troops did fire

23 at their own people?

24 A. Yes, sir. Your question is not complete, sir, but, yes, that is

25 possible.

Page 8745

1 Q. Thank you very much. [In English] I know that sometimes we do

2 have some difficulties with the transcript. Thank you for that. But I

3 cannot read it and try to ask my questions. I am quite sure you will

4 understand it.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you very much for that. I will go ahead in French.

7 [Interpretation] Sir, when we are talking about the shelling, is

8 it possible, as far as you can recall, that the shellings, that the

9 responsibility would come from the Muslim side for their own people, would

10 it have occurred in the area known as Dobrinja?

11 A. If I may just delay here, I am picturing in my mind the various

12 places. But in fact Dobrinja is very clear now and, yes, that was

13 possible.

14 Q. I am just reminding you so that things are clear, Dobrinja is the

15 neighbouring area to the landing strip of the airport, it is to the north

16 of the airport. Is that what you remember, sir?

17 A. I remember it being beside, immediately beside the airport, yes,

18 sir.

19 Q. Sir, is it possible that such shelling also occurred in the area

20 known as Alipasino Polje? I am reminding you that this is a neighbourhood

21 which is a little to the north of Dobrinja.

22 A. Yes, sir. It is possible that that could have happened anywhere

23 in the city.

24 Q. Thank you. Sir, I would like to go back to your information

25 sources or your intelligence sources. When you spoke of a corps plan, did

Page 8746

1 I understand it correctly sir, your testimony purports that you could not

2 give any name of any officers, intelligence officers, who would have

3 confirmed the alleged existence of a corps plan which is contested by the

4 Defence?

5 A. Correct, sir.

6 Q. Thank you, sir, for your answer. I would like to go back to

7 Major Indjic now. Do you remember when you spoke to him, generally

8 speaking, not the dates, but time of the day?

9 A. From first thing in the morning, being 7.00 a.m., through to

10 midnight, we spoke frequently.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this question, it seems to go in one

12 sense well beyond re-examination, but in another sense seems to relate to

13 nothing that was asked in re-examination or any answers that were given in

14 re-examination.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate where this issue has

17 been raised in the re-examination?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Earlier, Mr. Ierace mentioned

19 the name of Mr. Indjic, of Major Indjic. He was quoted on several

20 occasions, and it seems that Major Indjic would have been the only source

21 that this witness can indicate as being relative to the alleged

22 existence of a corps plan.

23 Now, the reason why I want to ask this question is in relation to

24 the additional questions by the Prosecution, as well as with regard to the

25 circumstances, personal circumstances, with regard to Major Indjic, and I

Page 8747

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6

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8

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13 English transcripts.

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25

Page 8748

1 believe that the Defence is authorised to do this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It might not have been a totally new issue, but is my

3 recollection correct, Mr. Ierace, when you asked some questions about

4 the relationship with Major Indjic --

5 MR. IERACE: I didn't ask any questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, but it was part of the testimony.

7 MR. IERACE: The only question I asked the witness was what the

8 reasons were that he regarded, that is the witness regarded, Mr. Indjic's

9 revelation of a corps plan as being important. And that flowed directly

10 from a question asked in cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, of course, part of the testimony was

12 about the way the witness communicated and behaved in respect of Major

13 Indjic.

14 One question you are allowed to put.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Q. It is a -- all the more simple question because it is a fact. It

17 is true, and I believe it comes from your statement and your testimony, is

18 it true to say that Major Indjic had a serious drinking problem?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: That is something that could have easily been put in

23 cross-examination and it certainly doesn't arise from re-examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you. We will allow one

25 question since part of the testimony was, although not

Page 8749

1 specifically asked, was about Major Indjic. But there is no reason

2 whatsoever why you would not have put this question in cross-examination,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So I gave you an opportunity to put one question and I

4 would say that was intended to take advantage of the possibility given,

5 and I might remind this for future situations.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if the question stands and the answer

7 stands --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: -- had it been asked in cross-examination, it would

10 have been a subject of re-examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will given you an opportunity to re-examine

12 the witness in this respect.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

14 I hope that you will accept my apologies. It is not manipulation on my

15 part, but simply in good faith, I thought that I would be authorised to

16 ask this question. Very well. I will not ask it. I will ask other

17 questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You've asked it; it has been answered. Mr. Ierace

19 will get an opportunity to re-examine the witness on this issue. Please

20 proceed

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very last question, indeed.

22 Q. Very last question, sir. Does the name or the abbreviation of

23 Sib, S-i-b- or C-i-b, mean anything to you?

24 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Perhaps my friend can

25 explain how this arises from re-examination.

Page 8750

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: This means that you withdraw the question?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, if I am told no, then I

5 won't ask it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I don't remember that I said no, but I just wanted to

7 make clear to you that if you would start to explain in the presence

8 of the witness, the relevance of the question what it was about, et cetera

9 et cetera, that --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is very simple,

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would just like to see where in the

13 re-examination it appears that the Prosecution has asked any questions

14 about Sib or that it was part of the testimony, even if not specifically,

15 asked for.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. In a few

17 words, in a nutshell, it is perhaps a problem of interpretation that we

18 would like to clarify. We spoke of a meeting of the 25th of December, and

19 I think that it was in 1992, when this meeting took place with General

20 Mole -- or Colonel Mole, and it seems that in some translations that we

21 have here we are talking about Sib. Now I wanted just to make it clear,

22 since we do not know who the translator is, I just want to find out who

23 was there. So now this is not a vital question for the trial and, of

24 course, we don't have to ask it. It is not going to change anything.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 8751

1 Mr. Ierace, I promised that I would give you an opportunity to

2 re-examine the witness on the specific issue of any, I think, alcohol

3 abuse.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

5 Further re-examination by Mr. Ierace:

6 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you were asked whether it was the case that Major

7 Indjic had a serious drinking problem, and you said that he did. First of

8 all, as a cultural characteristic, in your experience, when dealing with

9 members of the Serb community, especially man to man, was it the case from

10 time to time that alcohol was taken?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Was there a particular drink that was favoured by members of the

13 Serb community on those occasions?

14 A. Slivovitz, sir, and please don't ask me to spell that.

15 Q. Okay. How common was that?

16 A. It was almost always a way of commencing a meeting and was

17 available during meetings and of ending meetings with Serb military.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether declining to join, on the part of yourself

19 or someone else in your position, was undesirable or desirable? In other

20 words, was there any expectation as a matter of culture, if you like,

21 that people would do this, would partake?

22 A. Sir, declining to partake, it was commonly thought that that was

23 an affront or an insult to the Serbs, but I personal know that thought was

24 a myth. After about a month or six weeks, I simply didn't drink and it

25 did not hinder my relationship with the Serbs.

Page 8752

1 Q. All right. Now, during your many meetings, I think you have told

2 us at least hundreds of meetings with Major Indjic, did he consume alcohol

3 in some of those meetings?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Did he consume alcohol during all of those meetings?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Can you give us an approximation in terms of a percentage as to

8 during how many of those meetings he consumed alcohol?

9 A. Approximately a third. So 33 per cent, approximately.

10 Q. In relation to the remaining two-thirds, on any of those meetings,

11 did he seem to you to be under the effects of alcohol?

12 A. Yes, sir, he did.

13 Q. Can you give me an approximation in terms of percentages of how

14 many of those meetings, that is the two-thirds, he appeared to you to be

15 under the effects of alcohol?

16 A. It would be very few, a minuscule per cent, that he appeared to be

17 under the effects, but there would be some occasions.

18 Q. All right. Now, the issue of alcohol has been raised in the

19 context of your evidence as to the revelation by Major Indjic of

20 indiscriminate fire being part of the corps plan. Do you understand that?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Two possible ways --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am objecting

25 to this because I think that we are going now to another side. We are

Page 8753

1 slipping to an abyss of the other side of the proceedings.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do press this question and this line

3 of questioning. The issue has been raised by the Defence and I must

4 respond to it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is denied. Please proceed.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. Mr. Henneberry, there are two possible ways, perhaps there are

8 more, in which a serious drinking problem on the part of Major Indjic may

9 be relevant to your evidence of his revelation to you of the existence of

10 the plan. One way is that it may, in part or in whole, be the subject of

11 a fantasy, alcohol-induced. Another way is that it may have loosened his

12 lips but what he said is reliable. Do you understand that?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Do you agree with that?

15 A. I do, sir.

16 Q. Now, in relation to the first hypothesis, was there anything about

17 what he said or the way in which he said it which raised in your mind even

18 a question that his confiding in you that indiscriminate fire was part of

19 a corps plan was a fantasy?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Was there anything about what he said or the way he said it which

22 made you think that he was guilty of indiscretion and revealing to you

23 something which perhaps he would not have done, had he been sober?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. On how many of the occasions that he discussed this aspect of the

Page 8754

1 corps plan with you was he, in your mind, drunk?

2 A. I can't even begin to think, sir. We had so many meetings and the

3 topic was so frequent, I can't even guess.

4 Q. All right. In terms of percentages, would you be able to give us

5 some idea or not?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. All right. Was there any occasion when he wasn't under the

8 influence of alcohol that he spoke of this aspect of the corps plan?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Was there anything he said to you -- on those occasions when he

11 wasn't under the influence of alcohol, was there anything he said about

12 the corps plan which was inconsistent with what he had told you when he

13 was heavily under the influence?

14 A. No, sir.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 Mr. Henneberry, Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to

18 you.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: First I would like to know, Mr. Ierace, if

20 your intentions are to tender Exhibit 646.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President -- Your Honour - I'm sorry - I am happy

22 to do so. I had been following the recent pattern of, where possible, not

23 tendering material and instead relying on what was said by the witness or

24 by counsel. But I see nothing improper in the Bench requesting that I

25 tender something and then doing that.

Page 8755

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if I may guide the parties in this respect,

2 that was a technique we used when only a small part of a large document

3 would be presented to the witness, and in order to avoid any contamination

4 and in order to keep the pile of paper within certain limits, we -- that

5 is what we suggested to the parties. But I think the Chamber has got a

6 feeling that we have no context any more now major parts of this document

7 have been presented to the witness in italics -- not in italics, line

8 before, line afterwards. So that is the reason perhaps why, under

9 these circumstances, it would have been better to produce the document.

10 Of course, in the beginning, we could not guess to what extent the

11 document would be quoted. But I think we heard approximately a quarter of

12 it by now.

13 And the next time, if there is a similar approach, I think we --

14 it is not isolated parts of the document any more, it is the general part

15 of the document that has been presented.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation to that, the practice

17 that I have adopted and which I propose to continue, is to place the

18 relevant documents on the exhibit list, in other words, the documents

19 which the Prosecution proposes to tender, and if there is only a line, to

20 avoid the unnecessary handling of paper and not tender them, but I remain

21 quite open to a request from either the Bench --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must interrupt, Mr. Ierace,

23 and I apologise because the French booth, whatever the reason is, is

24 unable to follow you and they are protesting to me. Thank you.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, simply put, they will be on the

Page 8756

1 exhibit list. If either the Defence or the Bench would prefer that a

2 particular document is tendered, then because they are already on the

3 exhibit list, they can easily be done. And with documents such as the

4 redacted diary, we would -- given what you have just said, a document of

5 that nature, we would in fact tender in the future. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But I was interrupting Judge Nieto-Navia. I am

7 sorry, but I am afraid otherwise I would have forgotten to give you

8 guidance on this. I apologise.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. If the document is

10 going to be tendered, I have no questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Just El Mahdi has one or more questions to you as

12 well. Or no questions.

13

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for a

17 clarification, please, and I was wondering whether you can help me to see

18 things more clearly. In your opinion, as an officer, from the positions

19 of the Serb army on the hills as you explained on the map, and the type of

20 weaponry that existed, would it be possible for you to read a strategy in

21 it from these positions independently of what you may have heard or not

22 have heard? You as a military officer, from the type of weaponry and the

23 positions, would you be able to read into it a kind of strategy, whether

24 offensive or defensive, and the gamut of in between these two?

25 A. Yes, Your Honour. Given the placement of the weapons, the fact

Page 8757

1 that weapons, additional weapons, were known to exist but we did not have

2 access to them, and that additional weapons were moved in, combined with

3 the overall lack of sufficient manpower, particularly front line soldiers,

4 and the requirement for those soldiers elsewhere in Bosnia and the

5 theatre, it was my speculation, although it seemed obvious to me, that the

6 intent was to completely encircle the city to prevent supplies from moving

7 in or out and to essentially wait out the Serb -- correction, the Serbs to

8 essentially wait out the Muslims and/or starve them out, maintain complete

9 control of the city to their advantage.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. In a sense of the type of

11 weaponry, if you can just help us in this, what could you read into the

12 type of weapons that were positioned in these emplacements?

13 A. Excuse me. The first thing was that heavy weaponry, and by that

14 I will talk about mortars and above, anti-aircraft weapons and whatnot,

15 were in scarce supply on both sides. There was a significant mix of very

16 old weapons and some newer modern weapons. So neither side had a modern

17 military, so to speak.

18 The weapons that the Serbian side had were capable of reaching

19 anywhere in the city, either directly or indirectly -- correction,

20 certainly indirectly, and most of the city with direct fire weapons. And

21 they could be used, depending on the situation, in combination. For

22 instance, indirect fire that would keep the heads down of any opposition

23 while the -- in this case, the Serbian military could move forward, or

24 direct fire, especially the large calibre weapons such as anti-aircraft

25 weapons, were capable of terrorising those who were near its impact by its

Page 8758

1 sheer nature of explosion and spread pattern of fragments, and the

2 anti-aircraft weapons were capable of firing through buildings. So if the

3 force, an opposition was believed to be inside a building, the

4 anti-aircraft weapons could fire through the walls of the building.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would also like to

6 ask you a question in relation to Lima 10 and Lima 11. You said that the

7 shots, the fire, that came from these two positions, were mostly fired in

8 order to cause terror.

9 Why and how did you come to this conclusion? And why specifically

10 these two positions?

11 A. Sir, I believe what I meant to say was Lima 7 was fired primarily

12 to invoke terror. Positions Lima 10 and 11 fired into the city as well

13 and also on to the front line. I am sorry, I've forgotten the second part

14 of your question. If I may read it.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How were you able to come to

16 that conclusion?

17 A. Because they were hitting, frequently hitting from those two

18 specific positions, hitting civilian areas inside the city, and I could

19 know that by the reports coming from my colleagues inside the city. I

20 would see a weapon fired, they would report an impact of the same calibre

21 of weapon, and so they could be put together.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So we are talking here about

23 position 7, or was it 10 and 11?

24 A. To clarify, Your Honour, position 7 had a domineering look at the

25 city; it could see everything. Most of the firing from 7 was

Page 8759

1 indiscriminate and fired into the city, that I could personally see the

2 weapon fired and the impact. Position 10 and 11, I often could not see

3 the impact and relied on my colleagues. However, the impacts that I could

4 see from the weapons fired from positions 10 and 11 did occasionally hit

5 homes and buildings known to have been occupied by civilians, or were

6 fired in a manner that kept people running from building to building, "on

7 their toes" is a phrase we use in English.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

9 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, there is no interpretation into

10 English.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

13 I am going to ask the question again, and I was asking for a

14 clarification in relation to the weapons of the BH forces. During your

15 period while you were there, there was talk of a lack of weapons, most of

16 the time. Is it true that most men of military age, so to speak, were

17 able to bear weapons, in effect, or was there a substantial shortage of

18 weapons? What was your impression?

19 A. My impression on the BH side was that at least those on the front

20 lines all had, in a military term, a "personal" weapon, meaning a rifle of

21 some sort. Whether or not they had to exchange those when they left the

22 position, I don't recall hearing that. Therefore, I would conclude today

23 that all of the soldiers had a rifle of some sort.

24 With regard to heavy weapons, again, mortars and anti-aircraft,

25 there was a definite shortage on the BH side up until about December, when

Page 8760

1 they started to re-equip or be re-equipped.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You said that you saw two women

3 in military uniform, which suggests that they were members of the army.

4 You spoke of two women. Were they bearing weapons?

5 A. At least one was, sir. I don't recall the one by the Presidency.

6 I would say probably. But definitely on the one on the road leading to

7 Rajlovac had a weapon.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And in your opinion, was she

9 going to the front line? Was she involved actively or was she perhaps

10 working in the administrative services or other services?

11 A. I saw her on the front line, sir. She was on the front line.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, sir.

13 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Judge El Mahdi. I have a few questions

15 for you as well.

16 Could perhaps first Exhibit P3449 be presented to the witness.

17 These are the photographs.

18 Mr. Henneberry, you have answered questions about two photographs

19 that are taken, I would say, in the field. That is the first photograph

20 that is, last four digits are 9095, and photograph with, in the right

21 bottom corner, 92125, someone with a Canadian emblem on his uniform.

22 Could you please look at the other picture that is also taken in the field

23 which has at its back - perhaps you could look at the back - ERN number

24 ending with 9090 in red.

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 8761

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Page 8762

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is that picture taken approximately from the same

2 position as the other ones?

3 A. No, sir.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you this -- well, let me first have the

5 next question. Does it give a similar view at least of the area covered

6 as part of the other pictures?

7 A. This view, I believe, sir, would be looking more from the

8 south-west into the city. I would have to confirm with a map. Whereas

9 the other two are almost due west. So there would be a difference in how

10 much of the city was exposed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am asking you specifically about a small,

12 square relatively light rectangle in the lower-left part which has the

13 appearance of a building at a distance. I don't know whether it is a

14 building or not. And on the relatively unwooded area on the hill in

15 front, would this structure in this area with hardly any trees, the part

16 where there is no bush and no trees, on the right upper side of this hill,

17 would that be the same on the three pictures because I see a similar

18 structure and a similar area with hardly any bush or wood?

19 A. Yes, sir. It appears to be the same. The building and the open

20 area is the same. The view is slightly different.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that mean that if the view would be

22 clear, that you would see from those positions as appear in the two other

23 photographs with people on it, would be approximately the same as in that

24 third photograph with no people on it? I mean the view on the city,

25 especially distance, buildings.

Page 8763

1 A. Yes, sir, approximately.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 Mr. Henneberry, you have been confronted with document D108, which

4 starts with: "You will no doubt be aware of the incident at Lima 7 on the

5 19th of December 1992."

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. I do, sir.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you just give us a brief indication, not more

9 than that at this very moment, of what was the incident at Lima 7 on the

10 19th of December?

11 A. It was a perceived hostage-taking of UNMOs by Serbian forces.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.

13 I noted that on the map we looked at Lima 7 is indicated in a

14 slightly different way compared to all the other positions, that is that

15 the small circle next to it is white, where all the others are black. Has

16 this a specific meaning?

17 A. I suspect it is just a technical matter, sir. I don't recall off

18 the top of my head. As in the difference between the black and white

19 circle, Lima 7, the position was different, but on the map, if I could

20 see the map --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps Exhibit P742 be shown to the

22 witness again. You said the difference --

23 A. No, sir. I can state with some confidence that that was just a

24 matter of the machine used to reproduce the map and it was a technical

25 one.

Page 8764

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.

2 You testified about shelling targeting within the boundaries of

3 the city, shelling people from the ABiH population by ABiH forces. How

4 frequent was that? Could you give us a further indication.

5 A. Speculatively, it was relatively frequent, especially when the

6 press were around. I say, "speculatively" because not all incidents were

7 investigated. But there was a direct correlation to when the press were

8 visiting the ABiH positions or forces to the number of shells or the

9 frequency of shelling inside the city. So I suspect that those shells,

10 those incidents, were generally done by the ABiH forces, and that was a

11 common feeling.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are talking about several specific types of

13 targets. You mentioned markets.

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a better indication of markets. We

16 heard a lot of testimony - you will not be surprised - about one market.

17 Would that market be included in your assessment or would it not; it would

18 be the Markale market?

19 A. That -- I wasn't considering that one, sir. That happened after I

20 had gone.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you indicate what other markets you were

22 considering?

23 A. For the first few months when I was there, there was very, very

24 little to buy inside and outside the city. Whenever a shipment would come

25 in of whatever, food, UN aid, even that was being resold, an impromptu

Page 8765

1 market would open up or perhaps it would be taken to a former thriving

2 marketplace and then put on display. They weren't permanent markets in

3 the sense they were open all the time. They were just gathering places.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Was this phenomena which you would

5 described as being relatively frequent reported to the ABiH headquarters

6 -- was there any complaint? This Chamber has heard testimony -- not

7 testimony, but has seen evidence, whether it was complained about, using

8 hospital grounds for firing mortars. Are there similar complaints, either

9 in writing or recorded in whatever other way, to the ABiH forces

10 complaining about this shelling their own civilian population?

11 A. I am told that there are, and I believe that there are. Not by me

12 because I would have had nothing to do with that. But I am almost certain

13 that there are and I also know that the response was often by the ABiH

14 Presidency diplomats that the UN had no right to accuse them of shelling

15 their own people, that the Serbs were the aggressors. In essence, they

16 denied that they were doing it by trying to deflect the blame to the Serbs

17 JUDGE ORIE: What is the source of the knowledge of these replies?

18 A. Briefings, reports and discussions of the PTT headquarters of the

19 UN.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The last question: Would it be able, in your view,

21 to retrieve the reports of your discussions with General Galic and Major

22 Indjic, especially in respect of the corps plan or destroying the city,

23 getting rid of the Muslims, could be retrieved in any of the daily reports

24 either made by your reports or anyone else?

25 A. I believe in the official daily report, there would be mention of

Page 8766

1 that. Especially, I understand there were two types of reports. One was

2 generally unclassified. It went to New York over an unclassified means.

3 There were other classified reports that spoke of delicate matters that

4 emanated from the headquarters and they should be available. I can't

5 imagine why they wouldn't be.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your answers.

7 This concludes your testimony, Mr. Henneberry. I see Mr.

8 Piletta-Zanin --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, thank

10 you. The Defence would like -- following one of the new points that were

11 raised by your Chamber, the Defence would like to ask one -- only one

12 question and this is the question asked by Judge El Mahdi in relation to

13 reading of a military strategy in the field.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you remember the question that you were

18 asked by Judge El Mahdi earlier in relation to the possibility of being

19 able to read a military strategy by you as a military person, military

20 officer? Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. The question is the following: Would you be able

23 to tell us, if you knew precisely two elements, firstly, the confrontation

24 and separation lines between Bosnian Serbs on one side and BH army on the

25 other side and, secondly, a different military installations and

Page 8767

1 facilities in the city itself?

2 A. With regard to the confrontation line, my answer is yes, I knew

3 what it was. With regard to all of the presumably ABiH military positions

4 inside the city, I did not know of those until November or December. I

5 was not permitted to see them.

6 Q. Thank you very much for your answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Henneberry, I was a bit too quick when I said

8 that that was the end of your testimony in this courtroom. You also

9 answered the last question from the Defence.

10 You have answered a lot of questions from both parties during a

11 long examination. You have also answered the questions of the Bench. I

12 thank you very much for coming. It is important for us to hear the

13 answers from those who have been present at the relevant times and the

14 relevant places. Thank you very much for coming.

15 THE WITNESS: You are welcome, sir.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, would you please -- well, we don't have

17 to escort you out of the courtroom specifically.

18 We will adjourn until 1.00 and then we will deal with the

19 exhibits.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

21 --- Upon resuming at 1.05 p.m.

22 [Closed session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8768

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Page 8770

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Page 8771

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE ORIE: And, Madam Registrar, may I ask your guidance in

9 going through the documents that have been used during the -- yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this juncture, I might formally

11 indicate that I seek to tender Exhibit P646, which is the redacted diary

12 and other documents prepared by the witness. Copies of that have been

13 given to Madam Registrar.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a document that we read

16 from. This is complete. We object to this, and the reason is, Mr.

17 President, is that we read certainly about 40 or so sentences from this

18 document but the document contains a number of other information and there

19 was no testimony on these other elements. Therefore, and following in the

20 sense what was proposed at the time by the Prosecution, we had

21 prepared ourselves for the reading of the documents, respecting the

22 procedure so far. We cannot now be told one day something is being

23 tendered and the next day that it is not being tendered. This time, we

24 are objecting to the tendering of this document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

Page 8772

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Mr. President, the Prosecution has throughout reserved its right

3 to tender documents of which it gives notice in compliance with the

4 seven-day rule, and this document comes within that ambit. At no stage

5 has the Prosecution said that it definitely would not tender any of the

6 documents of which the Defence has had notice in respect of this witness.

7 Rather, as I explained earlier and as I have explained on other occasions

8 to the Defence, we place on the sheet what we may tender and then see if

9 we can avoid tendering by bringing out the relevant lines. So it is not,

10 in my respectful submission, correct to say that the Defence has been

11 mislead.

12 The second issue that my friend raises is one of relevance, so it

13 seems, that is, the fact that the document contains many passages which

14 have not been made the subject of questioning. That alone is not a

15 sufficient reason for the document not to be tendered. The witness was

16 cross-examined at length about the sources of the material in the

17 document, the reliability of the material in the document, and indeed he

18 was cross-examined about the letter which accompanies the document when

19 he forwarded it to the OTP on the 2nd of October, 2000. It is a document

20 in every sense of the witness, contemporaneously made in the -- to the

21 degree that it contains his diary entries. Those entries which were not

22 contemporaneous are clearly indicated by italics. I press the tender.

23 Thank you.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: As the parties may have noticed that the Chamber was

Page 8773

1 very much interested to know whether the parties would tender the document

2 or not because otherwise the Chamber might have asked for the production

3 of this document and asked for it by itself.

4 As I explained before, the practice used in this court - and I

5 also explained the reasons why - is functioning quite well if you are

6 dealing with an isolated part of a document, if the Chamber is in a

7 position to have some idea of the context. But if we concentrate on a

8 specific part of a document, it is also that we have some difficulties in

9 understanding the context, was also due to the very fragmentaric use of

10 document, where large portions of the document were read out. Sometimes

11 the next line was not read out or the previous line, which created the

12 feeling within the Chamber we would have to see the document in its whole

13 and, therefore, the objection against the admission to evidence is denied.

14 And this document, P646 is admitted into evidence.

15 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us as far as the other

16 documents are concerned.

17 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Just so

19 that I know, is this document going to be admitted as it is or is it going

20 to be admitted as we have seen it on occasions, only with the relevant

21 parts?

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...as a whole. And

23 of course, as professional judges, we will take proper care that we use it

24 in relation with the testimony given in this court. We have the testimony

25 in our minds and in the transcript. But the document as such is admitted

Page 8774

1 into evidence.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3705, diagram drawn by witness; Exhibit

5 P3449, a set of five photographs; Exhibit P742, map; Exhibit P3644.PH, map

6 marked by witness; Exhibit D108, UNPROFOR memo.

7 JUDGE ORIE: All these documents are admitted into evidence.

8 Then, Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call its next

9 witness?

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness is

11 Edin Husovic, who will be taken by Prashanthe Mahindaratne, who is a

12 member of the legal trial team, and present in court as well will be Daryl

13 Mundis. And might I be excused?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Ms. Mahindaratne, I might have some difficulties in pronouncing

16 your name now and then but I hope you will accept apologies for that.

17 Mr. Usher, could you please escort into the courtroom,

18 Mr. Husovic.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

21 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I hear that you are responding in English.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that you would like to give your

25 testimony in English or in your native language?

Page 8775

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13 English transcripts.

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25

Page 8776

1 THE WITNESS: It doesn't matter for me. I can speak English or

2 Bosnian.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It is what you prefer.

4 THE WITNESS: I can speak in English.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You can speak in English. If there would be any

6 moment where you would prefer to use your own language, interpreters are

7 there, so please inform the Chamber right away because we would like to

8 avoid whatever confusion because of your mastering the language.

9 Then, Mr. Husovic, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

10 to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole

11 truth and nothing but the truth at the beginning of your testimony. The

12 text of this declaration will be handed out to you. If you would prefer

13 to use your own language for your solemn declaration, please indicate so,

14 because we have them available in both languages.

15 Would you prefer the Bosnian-Serbian-Croat or the English?

16 THE WITNESS: In English is fine.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The usher hands out a text to you now.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: EDIN HUSOVIC

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the benefit of the Bench and the Defence,

23 this witness will be testifying with regard to shelling type incident

24 number 19.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

Page 8777

1 Examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

2 Q. Mr. Husovic, would you please state your full name and spell out

3 the last name?

4 A. My name is Edin Husovic, and it is H-u-s-o-v-i-c.

5 Q. Would you please state your date of birth and the town or

6 municipality in which you were born?

7 A. I was born on 27th of February, 1976.

8 Q. Did your family and yourself live in Sarajevo at any stage?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When was this?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I would just

13 like us to be very precise for technical reasons. Line 18, there is no

14 French interpretation regarding the date of birth and the address.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

17 Q. Could you please say when you lived in Sarajevo?

18 A. I lived -- I was born and raised in Sarajevo. I have lived there

19 from 1976 to 1996.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I have no

22 interpretation. I don't know whether there is a problem, but there is no

23 interpretation in French

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...keep a better --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this is a

Page 8778

1 technical reason.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem has been solved in the French

3 booth.

4 So please proceed.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Husovic, did you live in Sarajevo during the course of the

7 war?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Can you please state what your occupation was during this period?

10 A. I was just a student.

11 Q. Did you regularly go to school or did the conflict affect your

12 daily schooling?

13 A. Well, it did. I was going to school, actually, in several

14 apartments around my neighbourhood because we were not allowed to go to

15 regular high school because they were bombing our neighbourhood

16 occasionally.

17 Q. Mr. Husovic, were you at any stage shot while you were living in

18 Sarajevo?

19 A. Yes. I was shot by sniper on January 10th, 1994.

20 Q. You recall that incident? How old were you when you were shot?

21 A. I was 17.

22 Q. Were you still a student then?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. Can you specifically state the date and the time at which this

25 incident occurred?

Page 8779

1 A. That was at January 10th, 1994, around 12.30 p.m.

2 Q. What type of a day was this? Was it a clear day? Was there clear

3 visibility?

4 A. It was a clear and sunny day. It was clear visibility.

5 Q. Was it a calm day or was there much shooting during the course of

6 the day?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I

8 apologise. I think it is me, now. I can't follow and I am asking you to

9 slow down because I would like to be able to see both transcripts at the

10 same time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It might be better that you just take a small pause

12 after the witness has answered and that the witness takes a small pause

13 after the question has been stated.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

15 Q. I will repeat that question, Witness. Was it a calm day or was

16 there much shooting during the course of the day?

17 A. It was a very calm day.

18 Q. Where were you at the time? Can you describe the location at

19 which you were?

20 A. I was in the front of my building. There is a certain bar,

21 pizzeria, and I was standing with a few friends of mine, just chatting,

22 when shooting occurred.

23 Q. Can you please state the name of this area, the neighbourhood?

24 A. It was on Cengic Vila and it is in front of Paradiso Pizzeria.

25 Q. Paradiso Pizzeria was the restaurant you referred to earlier?

Page 8780

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You referred to yourself being with friends. How many others were

3 present with you at the time?

4 A. Five more guys.

5 Q. Do you remember their names?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you please tell us what the names were?

8 A. Sure. It was Sead Kahrimanovic, Junuz Uzunovic,

9 Mirsad Abdurahmanovic, Zijad Mujezinovic, and I can't remember the fifth

10 one. I am sorry.

11 Q. You did refer to Abdurahmanovic being present?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were their occupations at the time?

14 A. They were just civilians. They were unemployed at the time. They

15 were just trying to survive, like everybody in Sarajevo.

16 Q. Can you remember the attire you were wearing at the time? You can

17 just describe it only if you remember.

18 A. I was wearing that -- it was jeans, tennis shoes, sweater and a

19 jacket which was a kind of blue colour with white stripes.

20 Q. Do you remember what type of clothes your companions were wearing?

21 A. Yeah. They were wearing jeans and just sport outfits.

22 Q. Would it be correct to say that you and your friends were all in

23 civilian clothing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you or any one of your companions carrying any weapons or

Page 8781

1 anything that resembled a weapon?

2 A. No, not at all.

3 Q. At the time, what were you and your companions doing?

4 A. We were just standing, talking, chatting, telling each other

5 jokes.

6 Q. Can you please describe the incident to us, the shooting incident?

7 A. While, we were talking, I just heard a whistle, a bullet whistle,

8 and a felt a huge pain in my abdominal area, fell on the ground, and two

9 of my friends, they picked me up. They pulled me into Paradiso, into that

10 pizzeria. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't see any holes on my jacket. I

11 pulled my jacket and I saw red circle on my stomach. There was no blood.

12 One of my friends -- actually, it was Mirsad Abdurahmanovic, he asked me

13 if I am okay. I couldn't breathe. There was like maybe 20 more shots,

14 shot at the time, so bullets were whistling still around that area. They

15 just put me in a car and they drove me to the hospital. Sead Kahriman was

16 driving at the time.

17 Q. You said you were taken to the hospital?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 85.1, some 20 shots.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22 Q. Who drove you to the hospital?

23 A. It was Sead Kahriman.

24 Q. Did anyone else accompany you to the hospital, apart from the

25 person who drove the car?

Page 8782

1 A. It was only Sead, but the other guys, they drove another car, so

2 they were following us.

3 Q. As a result of this shooting, were you injured?

4 A. Yes, I was injured. My liver was damaged. I lost a lot of blood.

5 I almost died.

6 Q. Mr. Husovic, would you be able to say from which direction the

7 shots came, from which direction you were fired at?

8 A. They came from Hrasno Brdo.

9 Q. When you say Hrasno Brdo, what exactly do you mean? Can you

10 briefly describe Hrasno Brdo to the Bench?

11 A. That mountain it was located south from the pizzeria about maybe

12 1500 metres.

13 Q. Do you know which part to the conflict or which army controlled

14 Hrasno Brdo?

15 A. Serbian part. Serbs, they controlled that area.

16 Q. Can you be more specific when you --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 85.24, I believe that I heard

19 the witness speak of a mountain. In any case, I found it in the French

20 interpretation, although it doesn't appear in the transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Husovic, it is my recollection that you talked

22 about a hill, south from the pizzeria, maybe about 1500 metres from

23 that. That was your answer?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, you are correct, sir.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So that it was a hill does not appear in the --

Page 8783

1 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. It was hill. Apologise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- transcript.

3 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. When you refer to Serbs, who did you exactly refer to? Can you

6 be more specific?

7 A. Serbian army, probably.

8 Q. Are you familiar with the term VRS?

9 A. Yes. Vojska Republika Srpska.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Army of Republika Srpska.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12 Q. Who did you refer to when you said "Serbian army"?

13 A. Army of Republika Srpska.

14 Q. Would you be able to recall as to which direction you were facing

15 when you were shot?

16 A. I was facing that hill, the Hrasno hill.

17 Q. Were the hills of Hrasno Brdo visible from where you were?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Husovic, did you see any military equipment or big military

20 vehicles in the near vicinity at the location you were standing at when

21 you were shot?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were there any military buildings or uniformed personnel nearby?

24 A. No, they were all civilians.

25 Q. Did you see any persons, civilians or otherwise, who were armed at

Page 8784

1 the time nearby when you were shot?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you specifically recall about how many shots you heard at the

4 time?

5 A. At least 20 shots. I am sorry, I really didn't count at the time.

6 I was still in shock.

7 Q. You said you were taken to hospital for treatment for the

8 injuries you sustained in this shooting incident?

9 A. Yes, you are correct.

10 Q. Do you remember how long you were in hospital?

11 A. I was in hospital 10 days, even though my treatment required more

12 than 10 days. But it was not that many beds available.

13 Q. When you left the hospital, were you given a letter of discharge?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number 2097.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would just like to take this

18 opportunity to indicate on line 10 on the previous page that personnel in

19 uniform, words "personnel in uniform" had not been interpreted.

20 JUDGE ORIE: In the French transcript or --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "Uniformed personnel" into the French

22 transcript.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, "uniformed personnel."

24 Please proceed Ms. Mahindaratne. You asked -- yes, we have the

25 document in front of us. Please proceed.

Page 8785

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

2 Q. Mr. Husovic, do you recognise the document which was just shown to

3 you?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Your name is included there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that your address which is included there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your father's name is there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that the letter of discharge that was issued to you when you

12 left hospital?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number 2114.

15 Q. Mr. Husovic, are you aware that an official report was made of

16 your -- the shooting incident you just testified about?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recognise the document which was just shown to you?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Is your full name indicated in that?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Is that the official report that was made with regard to the

23 incident you just testified about?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number 3236.

Page 8786

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I have been informed that we should

2 stop today at 1.45 sharp. So I don't know, if it is just one or two

3 questions that you would like to put to the witness in respect of this new

4 document, please proceed. If not, perhaps we could conclude for today. I

5 will leave it up to you how to finish in the next two minutes.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I just have a couple of

7 questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you think you can do it in, let's say, two, three

9 minutes, that is fine.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I should be able to do it. Thank you, Mr.

11 President.

12 Q. Mr. Husovic, you gave two statements to an investigator from the

13 Tribunal with regard to your shooting incident?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. At the time you marked a particular map indicating the location

16 you were standing at, at the time you were shot?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Is that the map that was just shown to you?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. On that map, you circled in red the building where the Paradiso

21 restaurant was and marked it as number 1?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In that circle you also indicated with an "X" the position you

24 were standing at, at the time you were shot?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8787

1 Q. You also circled in red the building in which a market was and

2 marked it as number 2?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber what this -- the Bench, what the

5 market was when you refer to it as number 2?

6 A. This right here was a marketplace where people would buy their

7 food and they would trade food for cigarettes.

8 Q. Was this market regularly patronised by civilians?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have just one last question, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, but the French

13 booth has not been able to understand. Perhaps if the penultimate

14 question could be repeated, please.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

16 Q. Was this market regularly patronised by civilians?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell the Bench as to who controlled the area

19 where restaurant Paradiso was located, which party to the conflict?

20 A. Bosnian.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is all, Mr. President. I have no more

22 questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Not for today or would this conclude the

24 examination-in-chief as a whole?

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This would conclude examination-in-chief.

Page 8788

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Mahindaratne.

2 Mr. Husovic, this courtroom has to be used for another case this

3 afternoon so we will adjourn now. Would you please return to this

4 courtroom tomorrow morning, 9.00.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thanks.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You will then be examined by the counsel for the

7 Defence.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

12 the 23rd day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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