Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9072

1 Tuesday, 28 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we ask the witness to re-enter the courtroom, I still owe

10 a decision on the admission of document D110 tendered by the Defence.

11 That is a letter of the 2nd of February, 1993, by Marcetic, addressed to

12 Colonel Cutler. The Chamber admits D110 into evidence. The witness, Mr.

13 Cutler, has identified the letter as the one he received from

14 Mr. Marcetic. The Chamber takes note that the witness testified that he

15 had not seen any heavy weaponry on Mount Igman. His testimony does not

16 contain a confirmation of the presence of the weaponry mentioned on the

17 locations indicated in the letter, but the testimony did include that he

18 had seen locations on Mount Igman that had the appearance of being

19 prepared to have heavy weaponry positioned there. [Real-time transcript

20 read in error "appeared to have heavy weaponry positions there."]

21 This is the decision in this respect.

22 Mr. Ierace, are you ready to resume the examination of the

23 witness?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is two matters that I wish to

25 raise but before I raise those, I notice that the transcript of your

Page 9073

1 comments at line 18 in the English contains the words, "locations on Mount

2 Igman that appeared to have heavy weaponry positions there."

3 JUDGE ORIE: What I said is: "The appearance of being prepared."

4 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

5 Mr. President, there are two issues I seek to raise before we

6 commence the evidence today. The first harks back to comments that I made

7 yesterday to the effect that we may have a problem with the witnesses for

8 the Prosecution later this week. We had anticipated that

9 Christian Bergeron would give evidence after Paul Southwell and before

10 Francis Thomas. He is travelling from Canada, and it now seems extremely

11 unlikely that he will be here, in effect, in two days' time. Enquiries

12 have been made as to whether we could bring forward Richard Mole or

13 interpose a witness further down the list. Both of those attempts have

14 been unsuccessful. I therefore anticipate at this stage that the evidence

15 for this week will conclude with Francis Thomas, which may well be before

16 the close of the session on Friday. I will continue to make attempts to

17 bring someone in at the last minute, at least to give their evidence in

18 chief, so as not to disadvantage the Defence.

19 Mr. President, the second matter is I raised with you last

20 week, the issue of some submissions in relation to Witness AD - I will be

21 mindful that we are not in closed session - I asked if the Trial Chamber

22 preferred written -- a written response from the Prosecution or oral

23 submissions. If you wish to have written submissions, they could be now

24 filed very shortly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I, since, of course, the submission has --

Page 9074

1 submissions by the Prosecution in response to what has been filed until

2 now?

3 MR. IERACE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have prepared it, of course, it could be

5 filed. The Chamber has no specific preference, apart from one preference

6 that we use the time in court as efficiently as possible. So, if you have

7 prepared anything in response -- but there is one thing I first want to

8 consider. We had a motion, we had a decision, we had a further submission

9 from the Defence. Let me, during the first break, give you -- after the

10 first break, let me give you the feeling of the Chamber on whether we

11 would need an additional round of views or not. So if you could wait for

12 one hour.

13 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President. And it occurs to me that

14 given it is unlikely that we can fill the anticipated gap later this week,

15 perhaps we could make use of that time by applying it to any outstanding

16 issues which require discussion in court. I have in mind, for instance, a

17 certain view. I won't say any more in public session. There are some

18 other issues as well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If we could fill in the gap in the end of the week

20 by these issues, I can assure you that the Chamber will be prepared for

21 it.

22 MR. IERACE: And perhaps in that regard --

23 JUDGE ORIE: So perhaps the parties will be prepared for it as

24 well.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9075

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President.

3 Thank you for letting me take the floor. There are two comments I would

4 like to make. With your permission, you will see me wearing sunglasses

5 occasionally. It is not for stylistic reasons. It's just a problem that

6 I have, and I don't want to be too affected by the screens.

7 And the second problem is this, Mr. President, with regard to the

8 witness that we are cross-examining. We received supplementary documents

9 not only which date from yesterday, but which date from the day before

10 yesterday, before the examination of the witness commenced. This isn't

11 the first time that we have been racing against the clock in this

12 courtroom, and the Defence would like to emphasise that it can no longer

13 ensure such a Defence in a reasonable manner if, on each occasion, a few

14 hours and sometimes a few minutes before a hearing, if not after the

15 beginning of the hearing, we are provided with such information. And this

16 is quite contrary to the Rule 65 ter.

17 If I am saying this in a troubled voice, it is because I am very

18 tired, Mr. President, in all senses of that term, because we have also

19 received for the witness O'Keefe, who should be appearing very soon, we

20 have received a binder in which there are I don't know how many documents

21 and it is impossible for us to seriously present these documents to

22 Mr. Galic because this binder was given to us yesterday, I think, in the

23 course of the day, in the ad hoc file. So it is quite impossible to

24 ensure a Defence of such importance if on each occasion we are provided

25 with documents or information which are not just recent but which are

Page 9076

1 absolutely recent. And I think we have to know what is wanted. The

2 procedure has to be respected and then everyone will be content or we will

3 be racing against time and, as I say, this is a violation of the Defence's

4 rights, and I have mentioned this already.

5 Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 You made some observations in general terms on the documents you

8 received. Since you indicated that these are a large number of documents,

9 I think it was just about for you to do so. As you may have also noticed

10 during the past few months, very often, if it comes to specific documents,

11 the Chamber waits and see what is the document about, what is new about

12 it, and to be in a better position to assess what prejudice it would have

13 on the Defence preparation of the case.

14 So what I would like to do now is to give Mr. Ierace an

15 opportunity to respond to the general observations, so not to any specific

16 documents because we will deal with that if they turn up.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Firstly, in relation to

18 the supplemental information which was provided to the Defence, I think

19 yesterday, together with a draft translation, that document contains two

20 pieces of information. The first is a change of date which appears in

21 the statement. The second is some information in relation to an

22 unscheduled shelling incident which the witness witnessed, he personally

23 observed. I note that the first time that the Defence has complained

24 about the receipt of supplemental information sheets was in respect of

25 the witness Lieutenant-Colonel Cutler. It is a procedure which we have

Page 9077

1 followed throughout the trial, and again I state that the only reason that

2 these are received by the Defence at the last moment in some cases is

3 because we receive information at the last minute. And it is, to my mind,

4 the fairest possible way to make that information available to the

5 Defence and I think it is important that we do make it available to the

6 Defence, whether it is inculpatory or exculpatory.

7 Mr. President, in relation to the second concern of my friend,

8 that is the documents he has received in respect of the witness O'Keefe,

9 most of those documents -- first of all, all of those documents have

10 previously been disclosed. Secondly, most of the documents, if not all -

11 certainly most - will not ultimately be tendered but rather will be shown

12 to the witness and his attention will be drawn to a particular sentence or

13 a few words, in the same way as the Prosecution has done with the last

14 half dozen witnesses or so.

15 If it would assist my friend, if he would care to return the

16 folder, then perhaps tomorrow morning, before court, I could mark for him

17 the particular sentences or groups of words that we propose to take the

18 witness to so as to enable him to more quickly become familiar with that

19 material. That assumes that we don't get to Mr. O'Keefe today, and I must

20 say there is a strong likelihood that we will.

21 Mr. President, I guess the other way of doing it is this: It will

22 become apparent to my friend in examination-in-chief, of course, which are

23 the relevant words or sentences, and if he needs time to obtain

24 instructions in relation to those passages, perhaps an adjournment, given

25 we have time at the end of the week anyway, an adjournment until tomorrow,

Page 9078

1 then the Prosecution would certainly consider its position in relation to

2 that. It may well agree to it, depending on what my learned friend seeks.

3 Yes, that is the position of the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

6 allowing me to take the floor very briefly, once again. However

7 interesting it may be, I think that Mr. Ierace's submission fails to take

8 into consideration one of the Defence's fundamental rights, and that is to

9 find out which are the documents for the Defence. And I don't think that

10 in this brief lapse of time we can find documents for the Defence since

11 General Galic doesn't have access to them. I know that the accusation

12 likes to prepare phrases and submit them but, unfortunately, it is not

13 possible for them to do that with the Defence. That is not the goal of

14 this procedure here. The goal of this procedure is to detect, discover

15 the truth, and we won't be able to do so unless we have time to follow the

16 procedure.

17 With regard to the disclosure, the anterior disclosure of

18 documents, I would like to say that if it had been done in an electronic

19 way, I know how difficult it would be -- I know how difficult it is to

20 retrace these documents, and I don't want to refer to preceding cases.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you wish it, I can make some

24 enquiries as to whether these documents have been disclosed in hard copy

25 form as well as electronic form previously.

Page 9079

1 JUDGE ORIE: Are these documents listed under the exhibit numbers

2 or are they not? So apart from whether you intend to tender them.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I asked the question to Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, another member of the Prosecution team

7 prepared this. I anticipate the answer is yes, but I will check. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would

11 just like to say that we wrote a letter a few days ago and addressed it to

12 Mr. Ierace, and a copy was submitted to the register. And we said we had

13 verified this matter. We haven't seen a large number of documents listed

14 in the Prosecution's ad hoc document. There are no contestations about

15 this fact. I was then provided with a new binder with this document by

16 the Prosecution, and I am grateful for this.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it seems the documents that my friend

18 has were first listed to the Defence on the 21st of May, being some seven

19 days ago. I must say, I am not sure what my learned colleague meant by

20 the last passage, according to the English translation. But perhaps it is

21 better, since he seems to hint at some earlier correspondence in relation

22 to these very documents, perhaps it is better that I check with

23 the relevant member of my team before we take this matter further.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you do that during the first break, Mr.

25 Ierace.

Page 9080

1 So we will hear from the Prosecution after the break when Mr.

2 Ierace has further information from a colleague of his team who prepared

3 the documents and who might have seen the correspondence.

4 Then I think it is time - it is already late - for asking Mr. Niaz

5 to enter the courtroom.

6 Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Niaz into the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered the courtroom]


9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Niaz, good afternoon. Please be seated.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise that you had to wait, but we had to deal

12 with a few procedural issues. That is what happens now and then in a

13 courtroom. But you -- the Prosecution will now resume your examination.

14 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

15 May I remind you, Mr. Niaz, perhaps it is not necessary, that you

16 are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the

17 beginning of your testimony.

18 THE WITNESS: I am, sir.

19 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

20 Q. Mr. Niaz, yesterday you told us the names of the areas, that is

21 some of the areas, which came under your observation as a Papa side UNMO.

22 Did any of those areas contain what might be described as predominantly

23 residential areas?

24 A. You are right. Most of the areas in my area of responsibility

25 was predominantly residential area.

Page 9081

1 Q. During the time that you were an UNMO in Sarajevo, that is, from

2 the 2nd of October, 1993 until March 1994, could you tell us something of

3 the consistency or inconsistency of sniping activity in those areas?

4 A. Sir, as for the sniping activities concerned, were most of the

5 time consistent and we could see the -- most of the time, we could hear

6 these snipings coming in from the Grbavica side and a lot of injuries --

7 Q. Would you please repeat those last few words of your answer?

8 A. I said, a lot of injuries and a lot of casualties.

9 Q. When you say that you heard sniping coming from the Grbavica side,

10 on which side of the confrontation lines was that part of Grbavica?

11 A. It was on the south-western part -- south-eastern part.

12 Q. Which forces controlled that area at the relevant times?

13 A. That area was controlled by the Serbs.

14 Q. What about the shelling over the period of time that you were in

15 Sarajevo, were there days or weeks when there was more shelling than at

16 other times?

17 A. In fact, there are no -- we could not specify that these would be

18 certain days in a week when there was more shelling or there were certain

19 days in a week when there were little shelling.

20 Q. If I could interrupt you there. What I mean is, were there some

21 periods where there were more shelling or less shelling than at other

22 times?

23 A. Yes, sir. I remember one day very directly, and that happens to

24 be 16th of October, 1993. And during my tenure, that was probably the

25 heaviest shelling which we counted inside the city.

Page 9082

1 Q. How many shell landings did you count within the confrontation

2 lines on that day?

3 A. Well, not the confrontation line, but the shells, most of the

4 shells landed inside the city. And I think the time I started counting,

5 and if I finished counting, was about 1500, 2000 rounds, and thereafter we

6 lost count of the rounds. And in fact, I have given a detailed account of

7 this --

8 Q. All right. I will stop you there.

9 Are you aware as to whether there were any civilian casualties

10 that day from that shelling?

11 A. At least -- I was that day or midday, I was stuck up in the Kosevo

12 hospital emergency ward because we had no other place to go out. It was

13 not safe for us to be in any part of the city. So first two casualties

14 which I saw there coming was an old woman. I have given a photograph of

15 that also.

16 Q. All right. Can I stop you there?

17 First of all, could you please slow down with your answers so that

18 the transcriber can keep up with you? Secondly, can you focus on simply

19 whether you are aware as to how many civilian casualties there were that

20 day as a result of the shelling?

21 A. About 11, roughly 11, that, and about 20 or 23 injured.

22 Q. From the Kosevo hospital, were you able to see any of the

23 explosions in the city?

24 A. Well, initially, we were in the emergency ward where we could only

25 hear it. But I used to try to get out, to see where it was safe for us to

Page 9083

1 get out and move back to our OP. So, during that time, I did see quite a

2 number of rounds land inside the city.

3 Q. At what time, if you remember it, did this shelling start on that

4 day?

5 A. The shelling started precisely at about 0400 hours in the morning.

6 At that time, we were in our OP.

7 Q. Do you remember whether it seemed to finish at a particular time?

8 A. Yes. It finished up at about between 1500 hours to probably 1600

9 hours.

10 Q. Now, speaking generally about the shelling during the period you

11 were in Sarajevo, did you notice whether there was any pattern or

12 correlation between periods of shelling of the city and other events?

13 A. The question is not clear.

14 Q. From time to time, were you able to see a connection, any

15 connection, between the shelling of the city and other events that were

16 happening perhaps elsewhere?

17 A. Yes. At times, when we could hear heavy exchange of small arm

18 fire on the southern part of confrontation line, and immediately after

19 that we saw a heavy concentration of the shelling inside the city.

20 Q. During the period you were in Sarajevo, were there any offensives

21 carried out by the Bosnian government troops anywhere along the

22 confrontation lines?

23 A. I am not particularly aware of such incident but -- because I did

24 not see them myself. But from the exchange of the artillery, from the

25 exchange of the small arm fires, we did presume that there were certain

Page 9084

1 offensives which were carried out by the -- both the sides, rather.

2 Q. You've told us that the intensity of the shelling was greater on

3 some days than others. Were you able to work out a reason for any of the

4 periods of intensive shelling of residential area?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. One moment, please.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 It is very difficult, as we know, to define the town, what is a

8 residential zone in it and what isn't. We know that very well. So I

9 would like Prosecution to rephrase the question.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber finds no need to instruct Mr. Ierace to

11 rephrase the question, but, of course, if the issue is of importance, it

12 could be raised during cross-examination.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


15 Q. I will repeat the question, Colonel. You told us that the

16 intensity of the shelling was greater on some days than others. Were you

17 able to work out a reason for any of the periods of intensive shelling of

18 residential areas?

19 A. The possibilities which I could -- my UNMOs could work out was

20 that whenever the Bosnian would go in for some offensive, to release the

21 pressure from that particular area from that particular attack, they would

22 ensure that there was a lot of shelling and sniping inside the city.

23 Q. All right. Now, did you personally witness any incidents where an

24 individual or individuals who you regarded as indisputably civilians were

25 shelled?

Page 9085

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there one particular incident that comes to mind?

3 A. Yes. One incident -- I, at this point of time, don't remember the

4 dates or the days. We were going on a patrol and maybe about 250 yards on

5 where we were proceeding--

6 Q. If I could just interrupt you there. Did you say you were going

7 on a patrol?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you in a vehicle?

10 A. Yes. Most of the patrol, apart from the confrontation or the

11 front line, was carried out in the vehicles.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. So we went in that vehicle and about 250 yards, that is my

14 estimate at this time, a mortar bomb exploded --

15 Q. Sorry, was that a "mortar bomb"?

16 A. Yes a mortar bomb coming up, exploded, and we could see a woman

17 and a child, she was a girl, going together and suddenly blown up.

18 Now, at this particular moment, we took the vehicle at the site to

19 see that first. We waited for about 6 to 10 minutes, to see that there

20 was no further shelling. We proceeded up to the site. We collected the

21 pieces of the body in two garbage bags and the civilians helped us out,

22 and then we took them to the Kosevo morgue.

23 Q. Now, you have told us that you don't remember the particular date.

24 Do you remember the month?

25 A. It was definitely before the market incident.

Page 9086

1 Q. By that, which market do you mean?

2 A. Markale.

3 Q. Markale?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. And can you tell us the area where the incident

6 occurred?

7 A. Yes. If you go -- I don't know whether I will be able to exactly

8 point it out with a map. But if you go eastwards from the city centre,

9 there is climb going up. The road starts ascending around both sides. It

10 is a purely residential area. Both sides of the street are flats and

11 houses. That was that particular area.

12 Q. Do you remember the name of the area?

13 A. Exactly, I don't know -- I could find it on a map, definitely.

14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown a copy of

17 the standard Prosecution map which I think has previously been referred to

18 as P3644. I may or may not ask the witness to mark it, depending on his

19 answers. It may not be necessary for him to mark it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

21 Could you assist, Mr. Usher.

22 MR. IERACE: I think, for the moment, it would have the exhibit

23 number P3644AN, "N" for Nelly.

24 Q. Please look at the map, Colonel, and tell us if you are able to

25 identify on the map the place where the incident occurred. When you find

Page 9087

1 the relevant area, if you do, with the assistance of the usher, could you

2 place that part of the map on the machine in front of you?

3 A. The streets on the maps are not clear, but somewhere here. The

4 streets are not clear. The moment you hit the city centre, there is a

5 square and that road goes to the left --

6 MR. IERACE: If I could stop you there, please. You will notice

7 that one of the four edges of the map has the name "Sarajevo." Do you see

8 that, on the edge of the map?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Can you place the map so that edge is furthest away

11 from you so that we can make more sense of the image on the screen.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you turn it 90 degrees to the right.

13 MR. IERACE: It may be more convenient if the usher folds the map

14 so only the relevant portion is on the top.

15 Q. Now, Colonel, if you could answer this question: Have you located

16 on the map the position where you saw the woman and girl blown up?

17 A. It was probably -- the streets are not clear. I think this is

18 probably -- maybe this is probably. I may not be accurate, but this is --

19 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and place a cross --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the only part you would like the witness to

21 mark, because then perhaps we could do it in a more efficient way because

22 we have, what I saw - if I am wrong, please correct me - I saw the witness

23 pointing to an area on the map which is on the eastern side of the centre

24 of the city just approximately one centimetre left from where the word

25 "Kovaci" appears.

Page 9088

1 THE WITNESS: You're right, sir. I would agree that if we could

2 mark in an efficient way, in a map where the streets are a little more

3 clearer. I may not be able to find the exact location, but that would be

4 the general area, sir.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That would be the area. If the witness would not

6 come any closer, Mr. Ierace, do you think --

7 MR. IERACE: That will do, Mr. President, I agree.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Niaz, we might have heaps of maps finally marked

9 by everyone. I think it's quite clear -- since this is the only marking

10 expected from you, I think it's now clearly indicated where you located

11 the area where it happened.


13 Q. Colonel, approximately how far from the confrontation line did the

14 incident take place?

15 A. In the eastern side of Sarajevo. The confrontation line from this

16 place was quite far off. Maybe -- I may be wrong, but 5 kilometres, maybe

17 more.

18 Q. You have told us that you had done some training in crater

19 analysis. Did you carry out an analysis of this particular crater?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Were you able to determine the direction from which the mortar --

22 along which the mortar had travelled?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that direction?

25 A. It was generally from the direction of Sedrenik. We used to call

Page 9089

1 it "steep" or "sharp stones," that area, in the UNMO terminology.

2 Q. Were you able to determine the size of the mortar shell based on

3 your observations?

4 A. In fact, at that time we were -- the incident was such that it was

5 probably even different than -- it was a shock for all of us but -- I may

6 be wrong, but it was probably a 120-millimetre mortar.

7 Q. Did you say that it was a shock for all of you, what you had

8 witnessed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you described one of the two females as being a girl.

11 Approximately how old was she?

12 A. Not more than 9. Between 8 and 9.

13 Q. Could you please tell us what sort of clothing they were wearing

14 at the time, if you remember?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am trying to

17 follow the English transcript. I don't see that it is reflects -- I am

18 not sure whether it reflects what the witness said, whether he said

19 "direct shock" or "direct shot" because it is not in the transcript. I

20 did not hear clearly what he said, and I think it is important to clarify

21 this matter.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is why I asked the question which

23 appears at line 2 on page 18, to clarify that it was indeed "shock."


25 MR. IERACE: All right.

Page 9090

1 JUDGE ORIE: I heard the witness confirm that he talked about a

2 shock.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


5 Q. What was the nature of the area? How would you describe it in

6 terms of -- and socially? In other words, was it an industrial area,

7 commercial area or what?

8 A. This area was then purely a residential area, with a few or a

9 couple odd shops.

10 Q. Approximately how far was your vehicle from the two females at the

11 time that they were killed?

12 A. About 250, to maximum 300.

13 Q. Metres or yards or what?

14 A. Yards.

15 Q. Now, did you see anyone near them, that is, anyone at all?

16 A. Well, they were going on the right side of the road and maybe one

17 or couple civilians because -- could be on the other side or the same

18 side. I don't remember because the moment this thing happened, about 5 or

19 6 of them gathered. I presumed that they were also in the near vicinity.

20 Q. Did any of them have anything about their appearance that could be

21 interpreted as denoting them as combatants?

22 A. No. I can remember neither were they policeman or neither were

23 they in the army uniform.

24 Q. All right.

25 Now, what about your vehicle? Did it have any markings on it?

Page 9091

1 A. Yes. All our vehicles were white in colour with very clear UN in

2 blue, and most of the time we had our flags on.

3 Q. Did you see in the area of the two females anything that could be

4 regarded or even mistaken as military equipment or weaponry?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I will now take you to a different topic, namely, the incident at

7 Markale market in February of 1994.

8 Had you seen the market on that day but before the explosion?

9 A. Yes. In fact, that was in my daily patrol route.

10 Q. Did you notice the number of people at the market on that day

11 before the explosion?

12 A. The time was between 9.00 and 10.00 and it was crowded.

13 Q. When you say "it was crowded," can you give us some idea of how

14 crowded it was?

15 A. Well, it would be difficult for me to give you the exact figures,

16 but if I use the word it was "jam packed."

17 Q. I think that communicates some sense of how crowded. What time --

18 I think you said it was between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m. that you noticed it to

19 be jam packed; is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. At some stage later did you hear an explosion?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where were you, in relation to the market, at the time that you

24 heard that explosion?

25 A. Well, after carrying out a morning patrol inside the city and

Page 9092

1 submitting our daily report to the Papa headquarters, we went back to our

2 OP. Our OP is -- was located, that is Papa 2, in area known as Hum,

3 H-u-m. It is just below the famous TV tower overlooking the city. So we

4 were having lunch, we just started lunch. Once we heard an explosion

5 inside the city, as a normal operation procedure, one of my UNMO went out,

6 give the general direction of the incoming mortar or incoming explosion.

7 Q. If I could ask you to clarify that you said that, pursuant to

8 normal operation procedure, one of your UNMOs gave the general direction

9 of the incoming mortar or incoming explosion. Do you mean by that that

10 one of your UNMOs established the direction from which the sound of the

11 explosion came or do you mean something else?

12 A. Well, in this case, we were sitting at a predominant height, at an

13 OP which used to be overlooking the city. We used to presume or estimate

14 the general direction of the fire and the place -- the general place, not

15 an exact place, where the explosion had landed.

16 Q. On this -- in this case, did your UNMO determine the direction of

17 the resulting explosion or something else?

18 A. Well, he pointed out the general direction of -- then, from the

19 general direction of Sedrenik, but he was not clear.

20 Q. At this stage, you are -- you were at Papa 2; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Did you go to the marketplace?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Now, why did you go to the marketplace? How did you

25 know to go there?

Page 9093

1 A. The Papa headquarters was located inside the city, quite near to

2 the marketplace.

3 Q. So did you receive a phone call or a radio message or something of

4 that order?

5 A. I received a phone call and an immediate message to leave

6 everything and report to the place of explosion which we had reported.

7 Q. All right. Now I think you told us that you heard what you

8 believe to be the sound of the explosion at the marketplace; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. How long was it -- withdraw that.

12 At approximately what time did you hear that explosion?

13 A. I may be wrong, it is a long time --

14 Q. If you don't remember --

15 A. Maybe 12.00, I don't know.

16 Q. You say "maybe 12.00." Having regard to your earlier words, do

17 you mean that you are not sure if that was the time?

18 A. To be correct, I may not be correct in giving you the exact time.

19 Q. All right. If you are not sure of any answer that you give,

20 please tell us, do you understand?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Now, approximately how long after you heard that

23 explosion did you arrive at the market?

24 A. Maximum 40 minutes.

25 Q. When you arrived at the market, what did you see?

Page 9094

1 A. When I arrived at the market, the police, the local police was

2 already there. They have -- they had cordoned off the area. There were

3 one or two French UNPROFOR APCs standing there and the place was littered

4 with bodies, blood. The tempers of the locals were very high, especially

5 once I arrived.

6 Q. Were you wearing your uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did that uniform indicate that you were part of the United

9 Nations?

10 A. Yes. We had a helmet, blue helmet, with "UN" written on the top.

11 Q. Were angry words said to you?

12 A. Yes. At the moment I entered, I went inside the cordoned area --

13 to a police officer, took out a leg of a victim and shouted:

14 "Boutros-Ghali, happy New Year."

15 Q. Was that a severed leg?

16 A. Yes, and if I am not wrong, this incident was shown for quite some

17 time on the Sky TV probably.

18 Q. Without going into detail, is it fair to say that there were a

19 number of comments made to you by people present, expressing anger at the

20 United Nations?

21 A. You are right.

22 Q. Now, did you notice -- you told us that you saw bodies. Did you

23 see anyone there who was apparently wounded, but alive?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right.

Page 9095












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9096

1 A. I was myself ordered by the Senior Military Observer, Major

2 Thomas Roy, to bring on whatever casualty I can inside the PTT building

3 French hospital.

4 Q. Now, firstly, did you go to the market with some other people?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who were they?

7 A. I had two vehicles. I had Captain Simon Guest.

8 Q. Is "Guest" spelled G-u-e-s-t?

9 A. Probably. From the Royal Marines. Major -- Captain Mubarek --

10 sorry, Captain Mubarek from Jordan.

11 Q. Is "Mubarek" spelled M-o-u-b --

12 A. M-u-b. M-u-b-a-r-e-k. Almost right.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. And Major Farouk from Bangladesh, and the interpreter Jasmina.

15 Q. The interpreter, was that Jasmina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there anyone else that you recollect at this stage?

18 A. No. We left one -- and probably a Dutch UNMO. I am not sure

19 about that.

20 Q. Do you know the name of the Dutch UNMO that you have in mind?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Now, did you provide any assistance upon your arrival

23 to the victims?

24 A. Yes. Because that was the priority then given to me by the SMO,

25 that I must assist and regulate the location of casualties from the scene

Page 9097

1 of incident.

2 Q. And did you assist with the evacuation of any of the victims?

3 A. Yes. I myself took a woman. She was an elderly woman, maybe late

4 50s, and probably a young boy. There were two of them. One -- this old

5 woman was taken by me in my own vehicle and the other was taken by the

6 other UNMO.

7 Q. All right. Now, whereabouts did you take that woman?

8 A. We took her to the PTT building, the headquarters of United

9 Nations at Sarajevo.

10 Q. We have heard evidence that there was a medical facility at the

11 PTT building at some stage. Was that where you took her on this day?

12 A. Yes. I told you earlier that I was told by my SMO, the Senior

13 Military Observer, that he had made arrangements with the French to

14 receive the casualties. So otherwise the civilians were not allowed

15 inside the PTT building. So he had arranged so that I was not stopped on

16 the way, even at the initial barricade.

17 Q. You told us yesterday that part of your duties in relation to the

18 shelling of civilians in Sarajevo was to check the casualties or at least

19 the casualty numbers. Did you do that in relation to this shelling of

20 Markale?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when did you do that? Was it that day or later?

23 A. Same day.

24 Q. All right.

25 And what time did you start that process on that day?

Page 9098

1 A. If I am correct, it was after 1700 hours.

2 Q. 1700 hours, after that. Where were the places you went to in

3 order to count the wounded and dead?

4 A. There was only one morgue in the Kosevo hospital, the Kosevo

5 hospital itself. And in the city they had -- what did they call it?

6 State hospital. I don't know.

7 Q. And what about the PTT French medical facility?

8 A. No. I only took the casualties there.

9 Q. When you counted the numbers, did you include those who were taken

10 to the PTT building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. So you have mentioned the Kosevo hospital and Kosevo

13 morgue, the state hospital, the PTT medical facility. Were there any

14 other medical facilities that you checked for casualties that day that you

15 now recollect?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How many dead did you count that day which you understood to be

18 fatalities from that market explosion?

19 A. The exact figures, I may not be remembering, but between 60 to 70

20 were dead.

21 Q. And wounded?

22 A. About 120 to 140, 145, 200.

23 Q. All right. Now you have told us -- withdraw that.

24 When you described the area of the city that was under your

25 observation, I think you said the city centre. Is that correct?

Page 9099

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What part of the city would you regard Markale as being in at that

3 stage?

4 A. It was in the city centre.

5 Q. All right. Since you had been in Sarajevo, that is, from the 2nd

6 of October, 1993, until the day of the market explosion, were you aware of

7 any other -- of any mortars falling within, say, a radius of 200 metres of

8 the marketplace?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Incidently, what is your recollection as to the date of the

11 Markale market explosion? If you don't remember --

12 A. It was Saturday, probably. It was Saturday or Sunday. For sure,

13 it was a weekend, and 5th of February, 1994. I may be wrong, but this is

14 what my recollection says.

15 Q. Now, between the 2nd of October, 1993 and the 5th of February,

16 1994, approximately how many mortar rounds fell in a radius of 200 metres

17 of the marketplace, approximately?

18 A. The one which I saw and my team members saw along with me were

19 between 10, 11, maybe 12.

20 Q. All right. Now as a result of the crater analyses, were you --

21 are you able to tell us approximately how many of those involved a mortar

22 of the size of 120 millimetre?

23 A. I think most of them were 120-millimetre mortars.

24 Q. All right.

25 Now, listen carefully to the question. I am asking you whether,

Page 9100

1 in relation to those impacts that were analysed, whether you or your team

2 with you were able to establish the direction that those mortars

3 travelled, that is, the mortar impacts made since you had been in Sarajevo

4 up until the 5th of February, 1994.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. What was the direction?

7 A. The general direction, and especially this part of the city, was

8 from the Sedrenik side.

9 Q. Do you mean that if you drew a line on a map between the

10 marketplace and Sedrenik, then that was the approximate direction of the

11 mortar impacts, the craters? I am sorry, the direction along which the

12 mortars which created those impacts had travelled; is that the case?

13 A. You are right.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, finally, did you investigate an incident

15 involving Kosevo hospital, where three or four people were killed in a

16 shelling?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did that incident occur?

19 A. I don't remember the exact dates, but it was definitely before

20 this market in maybe December or January.

21 Q. As you understood it, how long before you arrived had the shelling

22 or mortaring taken place?

23 A. When did I arrive? This question is not clear, sir.

24 Q. How long after the explosion did you arrive at Kosevo hospital to

25 carry out your investigation?

Page 9101

1 A. The Kosevo hospital was -- you could see the Kosevo hospital

2 through a very powerful binocular we had in our OP. So the moment I was

3 reported upon this particular explosion, I think, another about 20 minutes

4 to 30 minutes, we were there.

5 Q. All right. Now, did you determine what type of missile had caused

6 the explosion? In other words, was it an artillery shell, a mortar or

7 something else?

8 A. Well, in this particular case, it had -- it had pierced -- it

9 landed in, probably, in the first storey - I am not correct - of the

10 hospital and we didn't see the impact, but we did see its -- the windows

11 broken and from where the shell went inside. We did see certain

12 splinters.

13 Q. If I could take you back to my question, and please tell me if

14 your memory does not enable you to answer it: Were you able to determine

15 what sort of missile caused it, and by "missile," I mean was it a mortar

16 shell, an artillery shell, tank shell, what was it? If you don't

17 remember, please say so.

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. In that case, I won't ask you any more questions about that

20 incident.

21 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

22 Q. When you went past the -- drove past the marketplace between 9.00

23 and 10.00 a.m. on the 5th of February, were there any military vehicles

24 near the market?

25 A. Would you -- correct, there were hardly any civilian or Bosnian

Page 9102

1 vehicles inside the city on that particular day, obviously, no vehicles.

2 Q. Did you notice any military equipment near the marketplace when

3 you drove past between 9.00 and 10.00?

4 A. No. Because it was part of our duty, the moment we observed a

5 particular military vehicle went in an area, we would investigate and

6 report.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes the

8 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

10 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to

11 cross-examine the witness?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Ready is

13 a big word, but the Defence will cross-examine the witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Can you hear me, sir?

18 A. Yes, I can hear you.

19 Q. Sir, I am going to cross-examine you in French. My first question

20 is as follows: Could you please tell this Trial Chamber what your

21 religious origins are?

22 A. I object to this.

23 Q. You object. Well, then I'll sit down. Good-bye.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear the last thing you said, Mr. --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said I will sit down. If

Page 9103

1 this witness objects to this question, then there is no reason for me to

2 ask it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. Let's just first see, could you explain

4 what the relevance is of your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, Mr. President. We

6 know that in this conflict, and it's unfortunate, there were religious

7 parties which were in conflict with each other. We know this very well.

8 We know this witness stated that -- well, we know this witness stated

9 that, in general, his team was composed of two persons, at least two

10 persons. That was in what he stated yesterday, towards the end of the

11 afternoon.

12 We should at least know whether this witness had very firm

13 religious convictions, that he was not just a layman, a secular person,

14 and as a result, he might have a biased attitude. He might be biased

15 towards one side than another and, as a consequence, he might not be

16 objective. This is the only thing I wanted to talk about. And taking

17 into account the statements he gave which contradicts some of the

18 statements when he was asked whether certain fires -- certain shots could

19 come from the Bosnian side, this witness replied to this question,

20 categorically, no.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I certainly understand that it is the

23 case for the Defence that there was a religious element to the conflict.

24 I should make clear that that is not part of the Prosecution case.

25 Indeed, we have led evidence that there were many members of other

Page 9104

1 communities, including the Serbian community, who not only chose to stay

2 in Sarajevo but contributed positively towards the defence of Sarajevo.

3 My learned colleague went on in his explanation to suggest that if

4 this witness has, to use my learned colleague's words, "very firm

5 religious convictions," that that would somehow contribute towards bias on

6 the witness's part.

7 Mr. President, in my respectful submission, very firm religious

8 convictions do not lead to a conclusion of bias. So, Mr. President,

9 whilst I understand the Defence case, this aspect is not shared by the

10 Prosecution. I now object to the question, having heard my friend's

11 explanation because if bias is what he seeks to establish, then

12 establishing the fact of the witness's religion and the degree of his

13 religious conviction does not provide that basis. Thank you.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to save time, I

15 shall withdraw this question. I have seen how the witness reacted and

16 that is sufficient for me. May I continue? Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, you are a Colonel, is that right?

18 A. You are right.

19 Q. When you arrived in Sarajevo, you were just a major?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would it be correct to say, sir, that you were rapidly promoted to

22 the rank of colonel?

23 A. No, not rapidly. I was a very senior major then.

24 Q. Sir, no one is questioning the fact that -- sir, how much time did

25 you require to become a colonel after having been a major?

Page 9105

1 A. Between 15 to 17 years, at the time, of getting promoted to the

2 rank of lieutenant-colonel and 23 to 24 is the time of getting promoted to

3 the rank of a full colonel.

4 Q. Very well. I will ask you another question, sir: In your

5 capacity as a superior officer, I think you are particularly well-versed

6 in reading maps; isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. I will show you a map a little later and will ask

9 questions about it later on with regard to maps of Sarajevo, and I am

10 going to ask you brief questions. If it is possible, can you answer "yes"

11 or "no."

12 Do you know where Zetra is?

13 A. At this time, I don't recollect.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know where Zitra is located?

15 A. Could you spell it?

16 Q. Z-i-t-s-a.

17 A. No.

18 Q. As a result, you don't know what could be located there; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Thank you, sir.

22 Do you know where Magro, M-a-g-r-o, is located and what might be

23 at that location?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Sir, do you know where the command and control post of the 102nd

Page 9106

1 is located?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Sir, do you know what Valter Peric is?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, would you by any chance know what Petar Dakic is?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Colonel, as a result, you are not in a position to know what might

8 be located there, is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Sir, do you know where the 105th is located?

11 A. 105th, what is 105th?

12 Q. The 105th Brigade, not the 105th Avenue.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know where Pavle Goranin is located?

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --


17 MR. IERACE: I object to this staccato questioning with the

18 gratuitous criticism reference to 105th Avenue. I take it my friend is

19 referring to, I think what was called the 105th Motorised Brigade or some

20 other fuller name. In my respectful submission, in the interest of

21 relevance and probity, it should be put to the witness, the appropriate

22 title should be put to the witness and there may be more revealing -- in

23 other words, perhaps my friend should for a start put to the witness the

24 full name of the relevant brigade. Thank you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we are

Page 9107

1 speaking to a military specialist who has spent more than a year in

2 Sarajevo, we could base ourselves that on the principle that he knows what

3 we are talking about when we are talking about the 105th or the 102nd, et

4 cetera. I think that's quite clear. If I have to lose time by mentioning

5 all the names, I'll do that willingly but we will be losing a lot of time

6 for the accusation of the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness asks for a clarification, which he did

8 not on all the other questions you put to him, if he asks what 105th, in

9 order to be sure what your question was about, I think you told him

10 correctly that it was the 105th brigade. Whether this is the full name of

11 the brigade, I don't think so, but I think it would have been proper to

12 give him the information he asked for in order to answer your question.

13 I think that the addition, "not the 105th Avenue" was not proper

14 to do because we cannot blame the witness for asking clarification, if you

15 just ask him where the 105th was located. Staccato or legato are the two,

16 I would say the two ends of a line. Mr. Ierace asked, at least raised the

17 issue that, staccato might not be the proper way of asking. I am not

18 asking you to go to legato. But if you could find a way in between, it

19 might sound well in all our ears.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With pleasure, Mr. President.

22 I shall proceed moderata cantata as of now.

23 Q. Witness, if you -- could you tell us where the Kulin Ban

24 headquarters is, if you know where it is? K-u-l-i-n, and then the second

25 word is B-a-n.

Page 9108

1 A. No.

2 Q. Witness do you know where the Gras structures are located,

3 G-r-a-s?

4 A. What are Gras structures?

5 Q. Could you repeat your comment please, Witness, because it

6 hasn't appeared in full -- I see.

7 Witness, do you know what Gras is, G-r-a-s?

8 A. In English, g-r-a double "s" or something else?

9 Q. Witness, we are speaking about Sarajevo and this is the name of

10 something in Sarajevo. I fear that it is not in English. It is probably

11 something in Serb.

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, can I consider that for each of the questions

14 that I have asked you, in response to each these questions, you don't know

15 what could be located in these places. Is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness.

18 Witness, I would like to move on to another question that

19 interests me which has to do with special units. Do you perhaps know

20 anything about the existence of certain special units, for example,

21 special units belonging to Drago Prazina?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Witness, the same question for the Ljiljan group?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Witness, the same question for the Kobra group.

Page 9109

1 A. No.

2 Q. The same questions for the Fatih, Boris and Sultan Fatih groups.

3 I will group them together.

4 A. No.

5 Q. As a result, you don't know where the control -- control and

6 command posts of these special units were located, what in English is

7 called the CC posts of these units; is that correct?

8 A. You are correct.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel. Mr.

10 President, Your Honours, I think it might be a good time to have a break.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Niaz, we will adjourn until a quarter past 4.00

12 and then the Defence will resume the cross-examination.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

15 --- Upon resuming at 4.18 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I made those enquiries over the

18 break.


20 MR. IERACE: I am now in a position to given an explanation, if

21 you want to hear it at this stage.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you could do it briefly.

23 MR. IERACE: Yesterday, the Prosecution provided the Defence with

24 draft translations of all of the contents of the documents which appeared

25 on the exhibit list to be tendered through this witness on the 21st of

Page 9110

1 May, 2002. As well as translations of those documents, the Prosecution

2 provided translations of all of the documents referred to by the witness

3 O'Keefe in his statement, even though we do not propose to tender those

4 documents.

5 Together with the translations, we provided Mr. Piletta-Zanin with

6 English copies of the same documents, even though they had been disclosed

7 to him at least since February and even though he had copies of those

8 documents identified in the list provided to him seven days ago. We

9 expressed to Mr. Piletta-Zanin that we were providing those English

10 copies to assist him in determining the translations.

11 So, Mr. President, I am completely at a loss to understand my

12 friend's confusion. If you wish to see it, I have a copy of the letter

13 which was faxed to the Defence on the 21st of May, 2002. That letter sets

14 out in the usual fashion the dates on which the documents which are on the

15 exhibit list were first disclosed, as well as the ERN numbers and the

16 description.

17 Mr. President, whilst I am on my feet, I anticipate there will be

18 a supplemental information sheet provided in respect of the witness

19 O'Keefe in the next short while which contains the contents of some

20 information which he has provided to us for the first time in the last

21 hour or so. That is about four lines long.

22 If there is anything else you wish to hear from me in relation to

23 the issue raised by my learned colleague this morning, I am able to do so.

24 I am having steps to have brought to the Trial Chamber a copy of the

25 letter which was included with the documents yesterday. Thank you.

Page 9111

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin if he could

2 briefly indicate whether the facts just presented by Mr. Ierace are in any

3 respect not correct. That is the first question I ask you.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] They are not correct,

5 Mr. President, to the extent that -- it is true that there was

6 correspondence between the parties on the 21st of May, and immediately

7 after that date, correspondence from the Defence to the Prosecution in

8 which we asked for these documents. We were given binders which my

9 colleague had, but there were documents which were missing, for technical

10 reasons, and as soon as we were able to get ready for this witness --

11 because it wasn't possible to verify all the pages of all the documents,

12 as soon as we started working on this witness, we immediately contacted

13 the Office of the Prosecutor to say, stop, there is a problem; please

14 disclose all the documents to us of which we do not have a copy. Thank

15 you.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you: You made some complaints about that

18 some documents were missing. Do I understand that some of the

19 translations were still missing or some of the original documents?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

21 Mr. President, these are the originals in that we were basing ourselves on

22 the letter that was disclosed to us by the Prosecution and in which the

23 document numbers were mentioned. You have a divider and the number which

24 is behind that. In the binder that we received, we only had one number,

25 974, and behind that number there were documents. The other numbers, they

Page 9112

1 were either nonexistent, or in the case of one or two, there

2 were dividers but there were no documents there. We immediately informed

3 the Prosecution of this. Maybe it is just a technical problem of

4 transmitting the documents, but as soon as we discovered this, we

5 immediately informed the Prosecution of this problem.

6 And have I been sufficiently clear, Mr. President?

7 JUDGE ORIE: What was -- I am afraid that I still do not perfectly

8 understand. You are provided with a letter and a lot of documents, and

9 you said you couldn't identify all the documents in the binders you got.

10 Were they then given to you when you complained about the incompleteness?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, apparently,

12 Mr. President, and I have to say, I would like to thank the Prosecution

13 for this: As soon as the Prosecution discovered that there was a problem,

14 they did its best in order to provide us with these documents as soon as

15 possible. But we only received these documents very late and, to date, we

16 have not been in a position to provide them to General Galic so that he

17 can examine them, with the exception of document 974, which is the only

18 document which we received at the time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did you receive the translations of the

20 other documents?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to ask my colleague

22 who deals with these matters.

23 Apparently, it was yesterday.


25 Mr. Ierace, it is still a bit -- the information that comes to the

Page 9113

1 Chamber is still a bit confusing. Is it true that the translation of at

2 least a considerable number of documents - that does not necessarily mean

3 the majority of the pages - but a considerable number of documents were

4 only provided to the Defence yesterday or -- ?

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yes, some translations were provided

6 to the Defence yesterday for the first time. They were draft translations

7 of the entirety of the documents from which sentences would be taken,

8 predictably in the evidence of Mr. O'Keefe, and also draft translations of

9 documents attached to Mr. O'Keefe's statement, even though they are

10 documents which the Prosecution does not intend to either tender or refer

11 to.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you are pointing at the limited use of these

13 documents. When you say, "we are not going to tender," would the

14 Prosecution -- could the Prosecution put questions it has in mind even

15 without using those documents?

16 MR. IERACE: Theoretically, we could, of course, but we don't

17 intend to. The reason it was done was because one might take the view

18 that because a witness refers to a particular document in their statement,

19 that that should be made available to the Defence. They were made

20 available to the Defence in English. And so what we did yesterday, even

21 though we don't intend to refer to them at all, was to provide the Defence

22 with translations of them, nevertheless, as well as translations of the

23 entirety of the documents on the exhibit list, even though the witness

24 will only be taken to a line or two and even though most of them, if not

25 all of them will not be tendered.

Page 9114

1 My basic point, Mr. President, is that we have engaged in an

2 exercise of assisting the Defence. We gave them a folder with the

3 translations and additional English copies to help them, and in response,

4 the Defence this morning has complained.

5 Mr. President, if there is any concern on the part of the Trial

6 Chamber, I think it is appropriate that Mr. Waespi be present because he

7 was the lawyer dealing directly with Mr. Piletta-Zanin in relation to this

8 matter. So that if any further issues are raised by my friend as has

9 occurred in the last few minutes I'm able to respond straightaway.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

12 know that we are looking at the clock, but to make things clearer because

13 Mr. Ierace is here, I can respond. As regards to Mr. Francis Roy Thomas,

14 a witness who will testify three hours, but perhaps less, there are about

15 10 exhibits which have been submitted by the Prosecution. For that

16 witness who will be taking the stand in a while, no translations have been

17 submitted. I am repeating this.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just one simple question: The documents

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to without translations, are they going to

20 be tendered into evidence?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, he is now referring to documents

22 relating to a completely different witness. Some of those documents may

23 well be tendered. They were identified yesterday. But when I say "may

24 well be tendered," again, it is in the context of this recent procedure of

25 simply showing them to the witness. Now, if they weren't on the exhibit

Page 9115

1 list, if they were simply shown to the witness, there wouldn't be any

2 requirement of us to provide a copy to the Defence or to have them

3 translated, that is, if the witness was simply refreshing his memory from

4 a --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.

6 MR. IERACE: I will slow down. So that is my response, Mr.

7 President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Let me just try to deal with both

9 information sheets and documents that came up recently or have been

10 provided additionally in B/C/S. It is the experience of this Chamber

11 until now that discussing these kind of issues in general terms usually is

12 not of great assistance to solve the problems. We discussed last week the

13 issue of additional information sheets. So much depends on what is in

14 there. If it is just a simple change from one date, from Tuesday until

15 Wednesday, or the correction of a mistake, it is of no use to spend much

16 time on general argument on additional information sheets.

17 We have the experience that it is very often -- very often the

18 same is true as far as documents are concerned. Sometimes it is easy to

19 fully understand a document within two minutes and sometimes documents of

20 the same length might take you three or four hours to fully understand it.

21 For that reason, the Chamber, in respect of these new documents,

22 first wants to reconfirm that the general rules are still standing, the

23 list should be presented to the other party, but if for any unforeseen

24 circumstances or for any other circumstances that might justify a

25 deviation from the applicable rule, we will deal with that when this

Page 9116

1 document or when this additional information comes up during the

2 testimony of the witness.

3 And if the Chamber is convinced that the Defence would need more

4 time to prepare for cross-examination, such additional time will be

5 granted as the Chamber, as far as our recollection goes, always granted

6 additional time if really needed. I leave it to that at this very

7 moment.

8 Mr. Ierace, there is one other issue. You asked something at the

9 beginning of this afternoon's session about any additional filing in

10 respect of what I would call "AD." If you would file it, would you then

11 do it as quickly as possible? And it is -- a motion has been, a response,

12 so after this initial filing, unless the Chamber otherwise decides, there

13 will be no further exchange of views until a final or a provisional

14 decision will be given.

15 MR. IERACE: We will do that tomorrow morning, Mr. President. I

16 have Mr. Waespi here now, if you wish there to be a response from the

17 Prosecution in relation to what Mr. Piletta-Zanin has said transpired with

18 missing documents and the like. Or if you think it is unproductive,

19 then we can move on.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What I just said is that usually we get to a solution

21 very quickly. If it comes to the specific document, then we can ask:

22 When was this document, how much time would you need for this document,

23 when was the translation given of this document, are you going to tender

24 this specific document or not, in what way are you going to use it. And

25 that is a far more productive way in the view of the Chamber to deal with

Page 9117

1 these kind of matters.

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we shall

4 conclude now because we don't find this to be extremely productive. I

5 would like to underline one thing: As for supplementary information

6 received yesterday regarding Colonel Niaz, I heard that the Prosecutor say

7 that it was only a question of change of schedule. I note that in the two

8 pieces of supplementary information for the very first time, and this was

9 not earlier in the statement of the witness, the existence of shelling

10 which was a subject of examination. There were dates, 17th and 18th of

11 October, 1993, and it was impossible for the Defence to ask some questions

12 to General Galic regarding those dates, about perhaps conflicts, and

13 everything was done for us to make it impossible for us to ask these

14 questions. I don't want to exhaust ourselves over --

15 JUDGE ORIE: What you are saying is the additional information in

16 respect of shelling on the 17th and 18th of October was never disclosed

17 before, and then the next question is: Would you need more time to

18 prepare for the cross-examination in that respect or would you like to

19 interrupt the cross-examination then in order to have more time so that we

20 could first continue with others? But before doing so, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Something very briefly, Mr. President. The dates of

22 the 17th and 18th of October in relation to that unscheduled shelling

23 incident were, in fact, not brought out by me in examination-in-chief.

24 That was information which was in the supplemental information sheet which

25 was provided with a translation sheet to the Defence yesterday. Thank

Page 9118

1 you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not in my recollection. Were there any

3 questions specifically to that date in the examination-in-chief? I

4 haven't got it in my mind.

5 MR. IERACE: The witness gave evidence of the shelling of Sarajevo

6 on the 16th of October. That was a separate issue altogether.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So you would say these new dates were in the

8 additional information sheet but have not been used?

9 MR. IERACE: Precisely.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, this Chamber does not know anything about

11 it. It is not part of the evidence produced.

12 MR. IERACE: Yes. And my basic point is that my friend's

13 complaint is that he didn't have an opportunity to receive instructions on

14 those dates. He did. They were provided with the translation yesterday,

15 as well as not emerging in evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then is the Defence ready to resume

17 cross-examination?

18 Mr. Usher, would you please then bring in the witness.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 Please be seated, Colonel Niaz. I again have to apologise.

21 Lawyers always deal with procedural issues and it always takes time. I

22 thank you for your patience.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Thank you for your patience, sir. Now we shall resume where we

Page 9119












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9120

1 stopped. Do you know where the command post of this 5th Brigade is

2 located? It is, I think, called the 5th Motorised Brigade.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please show us where this post is located?

5 A. This post, the brigade headquarters, 5th Motorised Brigade

6 headquarters was located inside Dobrinja.

7 Q. Sir, which part of Dobrinja?

8 A. The exact location, I would not be able to, but it was on the --

9 you go inside Dobrinja for about -- exactly, I am not sure but it was

10 definitely in Dobrinja, there is no doubt about it.

11 Q. Sir, could you tell us if you know where the command posts of the

12 battalions of the 5th Motorised Brigade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Colonel, same question about the command posts of the companies?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer. According to your experience, a

17 brigade counts how many men?

18 A. Well, depend upon the armies of various country, but a brigade is

19 normally about 4.000 to 5.000 men.

20 Q. Thank you for your answer. Is it true that there were about 10

21 brigades within Sarajevo while you were staying there?

22 A. I cannot give you the exact count, but the brigade which I

23 understood was -- the headquarters was 5th Motorised Brigade, there was an

24 HVO brigade and there was 102 -- I am not sure. There was three brigades

25 which were -- headquarters which were in my area of operation.

Page 9121

1 Q. Thank you. I am sorry for interrupting you but we are short of

2 time. I am not trying to be impolite.

3 Do you know where the headquarters of the other brigades were

4 located? Could you locate the places where the headquarters of the other

5 brigades were located; yes or no?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know, does the street name of Benevolencija

8 mean anything to you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know what MUP is?

11 A. How do you spell this?

12 Q. M-U-P.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Colonel, now I would like to speak about your military training,

15 please, and more specifically in connection with your training in the

16 Balkans. You told us yesterday that you had arrived, first of all, in the

17 region of Zagreb. Do you remember having said that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. You said that you were trained in crater analysis

20 which lasted two hours; is that correct?

21 A. Maybe two, three hours. Exact --

22 Q. From two to three hours, I think that was your answer.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be allowed to finish

24 his answers when he is clearly responding to the question.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In general terms, we are to allow the witness

Page 9122

1 to, but if there is any specific need to stop the witness, of course, this

2 will be allowed if he would go into an area which is not very relevant for

3 the party that asked the question.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, I am sorry for interrupting you. It was not what I

7 wanted. I thought that I understood that you had finished your sentence.

8 You said two or three hours of specific training, is that true?

9 A. Yeah, I don't remember the exact time but this could be.

10 Q. Have you completed your answer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, to the extent that you had had that training, could you,

13 first of all, indicate to the Chamber what you know about theoretical

14 variations of parabolic shots. If you know, of course.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be a matter of translation, but

16 the question has not -- does not appear in English in a way which seems

17 to be clear or logical. The witness is being invited to indicate what he

18 knows about theoretical variations of parabolic shots. I don't know

19 what a parabolic shot is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is especially what Mr. Piletta-Zanin

21 wants to find out. In his view, it means something and he wonders

22 whether the witness would explain what it means. But unless you say it is

23 -- if you don't know what it is, Mr. Ierace, that does not automatically

24 mean that it doesn't mean anything at all.

25 MR. IERACE: I understand that entirely, Mr. President, but the

Page 9123

1 use of the word "parabolic" in that context, I don't know that that could

2 have been intended. A parabola is a particular path. A parabolic shot

3 simply doesn't make sense. I stand to be connected.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The shot as such is not parabolic.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you want to say?

7 MR. IERACE: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: MR. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very glad that the

10 Prosecution, for the very first time, understands that a shot is not

11 parabolic. It is an excellent point.

12 Q. Is it possible, Witness, in regard to Markale, that the shot was

13 not a parabolic one, as I think or perhaps the Prosecution has confirmed?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just -- I am afraid that we have now a complete

15 confusion. If I do understand well, is that Mr. Ierace says that not a

16 shot as such but a trajectory of the projectile may be parabolic. I am

17 not saying that it is parabolic, but that is the trajectory rather than

18 the shots that could be parabolic. And he asks to reformulate the

19 question in such a way that this might become clear to the witness.

20 MR. IERACE: I should add that the witness has not yet given any

21 evidence about whether he conducted a crater analysis of what in the

22 Prosecution case was a mortar shell impact at Markale market.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think what -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now testing the

24 level of knowledge after the two to three hours' course. Yes.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 9124

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, it is perhaps a

2 difficult question.

3 Q. Witness, have you in your training in Zagreb, were you in any way

4 informed about the possible variations, parabolic variations, when firing

5 both with regard to a 120, 82 and 72 millimetre?

6 A. Well, it would not be in regard to 120, 82 or 72 millimetre. If I

7 am not wrong, you were referring to the trajectories. That is what you

8 mean by "parabolic"?

9 Q. I am talking about the character, the parabolic nature of the

10 trajectory and its possible practical variations. Were you specifically

11 trained on those matters?

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question asked by my friend

13 referred to 120, 82 and 72. I wonder whether my friend meant 62 instead

14 of 72.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If there are problems of this

16 kind, that Mr. Ierace should listen to the French because I didn't talk

17 about 62.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could have asked this question -- because

19 the witness confirmed that, so you could have asked it in re-examination,

20 Mr. Ierace.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am a bit perturbed and I

23 will have to dab at my eyes.

24 Q. Witness, was your answer "no," you had no specific training in

25 that regard?

Page 9125

1 A. No. Just an orientation training, and if I may correct you, the,

2 calibres of mortar, 120, 81 and 60 millimetre. No 82 and 72.

3 Q. Thank you very much for clarifying this.

4 Witness, this general orientation intervened in the courses of

5 two or three hours that you had?

6 A. Yes, because we were just generally to learn, not in specific

7 terms.

8 Q. Okay, Witness.

9 Witness, in response to a question of the Prosecution, you said

10 that as a rule there were at least two of you to conduct on-site

11 investigation. Now you have confirmed this. The person who was with you,

12 did the person have the same technical and theoretical training as you?

13 A. We were in fact on -- you are referring to which place? Which

14 incident are you referring where we had two --

15 Q. I am referring in general. You said, "as a rule, there were at

16 least two to conduct investigations" and that you always had with you a

17 junior officer. Is that true?

18 A. Not a junior officer in the technical terms but I just had another

19 military observer.

20 Q. The other military observer, Witness, did he have the same

21 training as you?

22 A. I don't know. Maybe.

23 Q. You never discussed between you about your respective trainings?

24 A. Well, may I correct you here. That training in Zagreb as

25 pertaining to the various military observer was not specific in nature.

Page 9126

1 Now, what matters was the actual experience with the various UNMOs were

2 having from their training and their own particular country.

3 Q. All right. Specifically, did you know people amongst you who

4 had at least one person who had a complete training of a ballistics

5 expert?

6 A. I was then not the team leader. But in my team, there was once --

7 yes, I remember once there was an artillery officer. And the artillery

8 officers are supposed to be expert in crater analysis and all these

9 trajectories. I am an infantry officer.

10 Q. Colonel, you said that in one of your teams, you had one artillery

11 officer, which seems a minimum as far as I am concerned. Was that person

12 an expert in ballistics? Did he follow courses in ballistics at the

13 university or at a higher level; yes or no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was his training and what was his name, please?

16 A. His name was Major Saleh, and he was from Jordan. He was a

17 major, and it is understood that in all professional armies, if a general

18 is reduced to a rank of a major and he is supposed to know, he should have

19 gone through various courses and ballistics --

20 Q. I have to stop you, I am sorry. That person, that major who was

21 an artillery officer, did he, yes or no, have the status of an expert

22 ballistic expert, that someone can be an expert in law or medicine? Yes

23 or no?

24 A. Well, the artillery officers are supposed to be expert in

25 ballistics.

Page 9127

1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, may I ask you, do you have any specific

2 knowledge about the training, also academic training, of the person you

3 just referred to?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir, not in detail.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Q. So this gentleman you have mentioned, Saleh, Major Saleh, did this

8 person carry out investigations with you? Did he carry out on-site

9 investigations together with you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

12 Witness, I would like to continue on this subject which regards

13 technical matters. Do you know whether it is important or not in order

14 to determine the origin of a shot, is it necessary to find elements that

15 have remained after a shell has been fired and to find these elements

16 intact? Sir, yes or no?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Sir, as a result, would you agree with me that if it

19 appears that such elements, and I am referring to a stabiliser in

20 particular, if these elements have been moved, sir, taken away and then

21 put back, in such cases, the investigation should be regarded with caution

22 because of such manipulations? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it would definitely affect the investigation.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. I would like to return to an incident with regard

25 to which you gave testimony, the Markale incident. Do you know that there

Page 9128

1 were about 10 investigations which were carried out in regard -- with

2 regard to this particular incident, with regard to this shelling?

3 A. Yes, as far as I know, that there were -- during my time, there

4 was only one official investigation carried out.

5 Q. Thank you for that answer. I am going to go back to what we spoke

6 about, what we saw a minute ago, and I have to list a certain number of

7 matters. And please answer briefly.

8 Q. Do you know where the 101st brigade was located?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The 1st Mountain Brigade?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The 2nd Mountain Brigade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The 1st Motorised Brigade --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are developing a speed, and I

16 notice that you referred to speed already before, because moderato is not

17 the way of playing but is a matter of speed, as you know, which cannot

18 be followed by the court reporters or the translators. So I am not asking

19 you to go lento, but a bit slower.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

21 Q. Witness, I am going to verify your answer. I was speaking about

22 the 1st, and your answer hasn't entered into the transcript -- the

23 1st Motorized. And your answer is "no," is that correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And with regard to the 2nd Motorised?

Page 9129

1 A. Same answer.

2 Q. So you don't know?

3 A. No.

4 Q. For the 5th, you said somewhere in Dobrinja?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. For the 9th brigade -- thank you. Sir, for the 9th Motorised

7 Brigade?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. The 10th Motorised Brigade?

10 A. No.

11 Q. For the brigade that you yourself mentioned during the

12 examination-in-chief, the so-called Croatian brigade, exactly where was

13 that brigade located?

14 A. Somewhere in Grbavica.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you for that answer.

16 Witness, I will show you a map in a minute. My colleague has

17 made me think of this and I think that it would be a good moment, if the

18 usher could help us, and turn towards us.

19 Witness, we are going to show you some maps, and in order to make

20 things easier, we have made fairly large copies of this map. I am not

21 sure that there are eight copies, but I think that there will be a

22 sufficient number. It is the same map as the one that is usually

23 presented by the Defence but usually we present only one copy.


25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I

Page 9130

1 apologise.

2 Usher, would you please --

3 Q. Witness, with the help of the usher, could you place this map on

4 the ELMO so that we can all have a look at it. Sir, do you hear me?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you ask for the microphone to be placed a

7 little closer to you. That will avoid problems with the translation.

8 Thank you very much.

9 Sir, do you recognise this as a map of Sarajevo?

10 Could we zoom in? Zoom in toward what the witness is looking at

11 so that we can all see this. Thank you very much.

12 A. This appears to be distorted map. The locations doesn't appear to

13 be the exact locations.

14 Q. Very well. Let's adhere to the principal that the map is not as

15 wrong as we might think. On the basis of this map, which is an official

16 one, could you show us precisely where the main positions, the main Lima

17 positions were; do you know?

18 A. We were not -- we were -- the UNMOs inside the Sarajevo city, the

19 Papa UNMOs were not supposed to be knowing the locations of Lima side.

20 Q. I understand that you weren't supposed to know where the Lima

21 positions were, but were you aware of this fact, at least? If not, just

22 say "no."

23 A. Oh, yes. The general area that from where the confrontation line

24 was passing.

25 Q. Very well. How many Lima positions were there? Can you hear me?

Page 9131

1 A. Yes, I can hear you. We had maybe 8 to 11 OPs in Lima side. I am

2 not sure.

3 Q. Could you very rapidly point them out on the map, and use a pen to

4 mark them with the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, et cetera.

5 A. I said I was not even -- I don't know where the OPs were located

6 inside the Serbian territory. We never visited those places.

7 Q. Very well. Witness, is it true to say that these posts were, as a

8 rule, situated next to the firing positions of the Serbian army?

9 A. I cannot say anything on that.

10 Q. Witness, is it true, as a rule, that according to military

11 practice, observation posts are placed next to places where something is

12 happening and not in locations where nothing at all is happening?

13 A. Not necessarily all the OPs. The observation posts are supposed

14 to be established at location from where they can observe, directly

15 observe, most of the area.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer.

17 Sir, do you know where the main firing batteries of the Bosnian

18 Serb army were located?

19 A. I said I never visited that place.

20 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you whether you had visited that place or those

21 places. What I am asking you is whether you had any certain knowledge.

22 If not, just say no.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you very much for this answer.

25 Sir, could you tell me where the pointed rock is located?

Page 9132

1 Colonel, can you hear me?

2 A. I can hear you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The translation might be a bit behind and then, of

4 course, the witness cannot answer your question until the translation had

5 the opportunity to be finished. Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is quite right,

7 Mr. President. In that case, should I repeat the question?

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question has been translated into

9 English as an inquiry as to where the pointed rock was.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the witness used the term "sharp"

11 though.

12 THE WITNESS: It was, I said, near Sedrenik. This was --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please give the witness

15 the opportunity to finish the answer.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question, and it would

17 be fair to the Defence if the objection was heard in his absence. Perhaps

18 I can refer to it obliquely. When a witness is asked to indicate

19 something on a map provided by the party, there are certain things that

20 should be done as a matter of fairness in relation to that map.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is still a bit of guessing for me. I don't

22 know whether it is true for the others as well.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the map -- the exercise should be

24 capable of being carried out in relation to --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that.

Page 9133

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I respond

2 to that very briefly? This witness is a military expert. He said that

3 he needed 24 hours to become a colonel, and I think that if someone knows

4 how to read a map, that should be an infantry specialist. He should be

5 able to do so if he is asked where a position is. People like me, get

6 lost.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection, as far as I understand it, is that if

8 you ask someone to do something, it should be possible for him under the

9 given circumstances to do what you asked him to do.

10 Would you please keep that in mind because we might ask you

11 afterwards whether -- what the situation was in this respect.

12 MR. IERACE: I should also say, Mr. President, there are

13 two aspects to the map in that regard which are wanting.


15 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, I am going to return to the question that I just asked

18 you. You said on several occasions that shots which came from the centre

19 of the town came from the region which you called the "sharp stone." Is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, on this map, and given that you

23 stayed for one year in Sarajevo, could you point out where the sharp stone

24 is located? Could you do that?

25 A. Can I correct you? My stay was not one year in Sarajevo.

Page 9134

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I still object. There is a

2 preliminary question which hasn't been asked, which is: Is that place on

3 this map? Rather than: "Can you point it out" or "Will you point it

4 out." I also at this point indicate quite specifically, since my friend

5 refers to the military background of the witness, that this is a map

6 which also does not have contours. So there are two issues: One,

7 contours, and secondly, whether that place of which we have all heard

8 evidence indeed appears on this map.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it if you ask the witness to mark a

12 specific or at least to indicate where a specific place is and you give

13 him a map, that at least the place you ask for is within the boundaries of

14 that map. Is that true?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as it is a

16 mountain, obviously, I gave certain indications to the witness. I don't

17 want to give him indications, but part of the mountains are on the

18 exterior. I have already provided the answer now. We also spoke, and you

19 are aware of this, Mr. President, of the seven forests area, and this area

20 appears quite clearly in this map.

21 Q. Witness, could you point out the area of the seven forests,

22 please?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Very well. Witness, you never heard the seven forests area being

25 mentioned?

Page 9135

1 A. No. This is a bit -- it is a tourist map, basically. We are not

2 used to tourist maps as far as my training is concerned.

3 Q. Very well. Witness, do you know which army was located - and

4 perhaps I will put that in the plural - which armies were located in the

5 Sedrenik area?

6 A. That was the Serbian army. The Serbian army was located.

7 Q. No, Witness, I am asking you the following question: Which

8 armies were located in the area that I have just mentioned, the Sedrenik

9 area? And if there was only one there, tell me which one was there.

10 A. Well, on both sides of the confrontation lines, on the inside

11 side were the Bosnian and the other side were the Serbians.

12 But I have not been on the exact confrontation line in this area

13 because this area used to be very, very dangerous for us to go. Rather,

14 most of the time, we were told not to go in that area.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer, sir.

16 Sir, would I be correct if I said that in this area which was

17 especially dangerous, there were two active fronts: One was that of the

18 Bosnian Serb army and the other front was the BH army, the so-called BH

19 army front. Is that exact?

20 A. You are right.

21 Q. Thank you, sir, for that answer.

22 Do you know whether there was any fighting in this area and

23 whether this occurred on a frequent basis?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Frequently, sir?

Page 9136

1 A. Quite frequently.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 Sir, a while ago you said that, as a general rule, when you would

4 speak about the shells that had hit the centre area, that they came from

5 that direction. Is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Sir, did you yourself carry out on-site investigations of these

9 -- of the traces of these shells, if there were any such traces?

10 A. Yes, in some cases, but in --

11 Q. Colonel, in how many cases? Could you please answer that?

12 A. Well, if you are talking to the cases which were -- which I

13 referred to in the near vicinity of the marketplace --

14 Q. Exactly, sir.

15 A. Could be five, six.

16 Q. Sir, in these cases, you indicated the general direction?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Sir, what enables you to say and to claim categorically today

19 before this Trial Chamber that a shell didn't come from that direction

20 which came from one of the armies or perhaps from the other army?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


23 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I can help my friend at this point.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With pleasure. With

25 pleasure.

Page 9137

1 MR. IERACE: I was careful in examination-in-chief to ask the

2 witness as to the direction rather than the point of origin. The question

3 asked by my friend seemed to go beyond that but perhaps I could assist him

4 by saying I don't seek to go beyond the direction.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is one of the questions that came into my

6 mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You asked: What enabled the witness to say and

7 to claim categorically today that a shell didn't come from that direction,

8 I think that the question was.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to be brief, I

10 will rephrase the question.

11 Q. Witness, I think that you understood the question. When you

12 carried out investigations of these six -- these five or six cases, what

13 enables you to say, since the two armies were positioned in that area and

14 there was fighting, what enables you to say, with precision, that the

15 shots came from one army rather than from another army?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before the witness answers that

17 question, I will try again. Perhaps I can do it a different way. I will

18 not --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...point in dispute.

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I listened carefully to the line of questioning of Mr.

22 Ierace, and he stopped when we talked about direction. And as far as I

23 understand Mr. Ierace, that it is not the position of the Prosecution, it

24 is not part of the case of the Prosecution, that in those specific cases

25 that this witness would have drawn any conclusions in respect of the spot

Page 9138

1 from where the fire --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I point out

3 the following: You noticed that my questions are sometimes articulated,

4 not always, but sometimes. Some questions depend on each other. And to

5 the question that was put to this witness by the Prosecution, the witness

6 denied that there were shots which may have come from a Muslim side. And

7 I am trying to question the witness's credibility in such a case what

8 enables him to affirm categorically that, in theoretical terms, there was

9 not a shot fired from one of the armies, namely, from the Muslim army?

10 And I think it is quite normal for me to put this question.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What line are you referring to if you say that --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With regard to the witness's

13 reply, I think it was yesterday. I can verify that. I will verify that.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could help. It was the case

15 yesterday that I asked the witness whether, in relation to any of the

16 analysis he did, he was able to establish that the source of fire was

17 within the confrontation lines, and he replied that he was not able to

18 make that conclusion.

19 But I am trying to help my friend. If he goes to today's

20 transcript, the English version, page 63, line 24, he quite clearly linked

21 this question to the crater analysis done on the impacts in the area of

22 Markale. Now, perhaps I can approach it this way: I will not be seeking

23 to argue that this witness's evidence establishes a point of origin of the

24 mortar impacts which he analysed within a radius of 200 metres of Markale,

25 only the direction of the trajectory.

Page 9139

1 If one looks at the questions that my friend has asked this

2 witness, at the line I have indicated and thereafter, he is clearly

3 questioning this witnesses about the point of impact in relation to those

4 particular mortar impacts. I invite my friend to not pursue it but to

5 stay with the direction and not the point of origin. Thank you.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...take more time to

8 discuss these kind of issues.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I will let you proceed for the time being, as

10 long as there is no misrepresentation of the testimony of the witness.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So, please put your question again and I will listen

13 carefully whether there is any misrepresentation of the testimony of the

14 witness, and please keep also in mind that the Prosecution does not seek

15 to establish through this witness that whatever the direction may have

16 been, that this would make it possible for us to establish the point from

17 where the shell was fired.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall bear

19 all of that in mind. But I think that it is important for us to ask the

20 right questions at the right time and to the right witness.

21 Q. Sir, you said in response to a question asked by the Prosecution

22 that, as far as you knew, not a single mortar shell fell in the interior

23 of the city of Sarajevo, not a single shell from the -- fell in the

24 interior from the BH army side; is that correct? Is that your testimony?

25 A. Yes, as per my knowledge. I would like to clarify the Honourable

Page 9140

1 Judges regarding a thing, that the UNMOs on the Lima side and the Papa

2 side were on the wireless communication. So immediately, if a round was

3 fired from the Serbian side, it was immediately reported upon and vehicle

4 also headed. Similarly, if a round was going out from the Bosnian sides,

5 and vehicle -- we were -- a particular OP would pass it on the radio set,

6 and similarly, the rounds coming in, we would report it.

7 So in most of these --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully interrupt. I

9 think it appropriate to go into closed session in the absence of the

10 witness.


12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

13 know why because we are wasting a lot of time like this. May I know why?

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...kept in mind

15 specifically by myself, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but we are not going to ask

16 Mr. Ierace to explain the reasons because I do understand that he wants

17 to explain the reasons in the absence of the witness.

18 Mr. Niaz, I have to ask you to leave the courtroom just for one

19 moment.

20 Mr. Usher, would you please accompany Mr. Niaz.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just for the transcript, I would like to say

23 in line 75, 12, says: "It was immediately reported upon and was heard,"

24 something like that. That was what the witness said. "Immediately

25 heard," something like that.

Page 9141

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you would just grant me 30 seconds.

2 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Mr. President, I proofed this witness and during that --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is in the absence of the witness.

6 MR. IERACE: And I take it we are in closed session?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are not, as a matter of fact. You didn't

8 ask -- did you ask for closed session?

9 MR. IERACE: Yes, I did.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. Let me just look to see if we need any

11 redaction until now. I don't think that you said anything up to this

12 moment that would need a redaction.

13 MR. IERACE: That is so, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we turn into closed session, please.

15 [Closed session]

16 [Redacted]

17 [Redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9142












12 Pages 9142 – 9151 –Redacted – Closed Session
















Page 9152

1 [Redacted]

2 [Redacted]

3 [Redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

6 the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Niaz, I hate to -- please be seated.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I hate to tell you same apologies, same reasons.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Sir, we shall continue. Are you aware of the fact that in

15 Sarajevo during the period that you stayed there, were you aware of the

16 fact that there were mobile targets?

17 A. Mobile targets for which army?

18 Q. I am talking about Sarajevo, the interior, that is to say, either

19 of the so-called Bosnian army, the governmental Bosnian army, or perhaps

20 of the HVO army.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. My friend

23 should indicate more specifically what he means by the words "mobile

24 targets."

25 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness would not understand that question,

Page 9153

1 then he would certainly inform us.

2 Please proceed. You may answer the question, Mr. Niaz.

3 THE WITNESS: One were the human targets when we were moving and

4 the second were the UNMO vehicles, the -- my vehicle was shot. So I don't

5 know, that was a target.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, I am talking about military targets, legitimate military

8 targets. That is to say, do you have any knowledge of tanks in Sarajevo,

9 yes or no?

10 A. I didn't see any tank in Sarajevo.

11 Q. Very well, sir.

12 Did you see, during your one-year stay in Sarajevo, any vehicles,

13 any cars, which were transformed in order to make it possible to transport

14 mortars or to make it possible to transport devices for firing shells?

15 A. No, I didn't see such vehicles.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the -- it might be misunderstood. Mr.

17 Piletta-Zanin, did I understand you well that you said that these vehicles

18 were transformed in order to make it possible to transport mortars or to

19 fire mortars? The transcript says, "to transport mortars or to make it

20 possible to transport devices for firing shells."

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, to

22 have mentioned that. That was my question. But I have difficulty in

23 seeing the screen tonight. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, does this affect your reply in any way? Does this change

25 your answer?

Page 9154

1 A. No. I didn't see such vehicles.

2 Q. Very well. Witness, during your stay in Sarajevo, did you see any

3 vehicles which were armoured, which were initially civilian vehicles but

4 which had been provided with armour in order to transform them into

5 military vehicles?

6 A. I don't think so. I don't remember. I don't think so.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer.

8 Now, sir, on several occasions you said that there was shelling

9 on civilian towns. Do you remember mentioning this?

10 A. Not civilian towns. I said in there was shelling in the city,

11 in the central part of the city.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a

13 problem, it seems, of translation.

14 Q. I said of a civilian character, you are right, Witness, but I

15 would like to follow me. Targets of a military nature. I think the term

16 you used was "civilian area." Is that what you remember?

17 A. It was a civilian area and the civilian casualties.

18 Q. Very well. Witness, the first thing I would like to ask is: How

19 can you claim that these were civilian targets if you didn't know where

20 all the various control and command posts were located, the ones which I

21 mentioned a minute ago?

22 A. If bombs land in a house and there are no military installation or

23 any mobile target nearby, and it kills the civilians around, so it

24 is obvious.

25 Q. Very well. Sir, you say that it is obvious. Do you regard this

Page 9155

1 as an established fact that we know that in Sarajevo there was a certain

2 number of military targets of a mobile nature? We know that you haven't

3 seen them, but how can you be certain, how can you claim categorically in

4 the testimony that you have been giving that there were no mobile military

5 targets next to the places that you have mentioned, the places that you

6 said were of a civilian nature?

7 A. Because I didn't see any such mobile target for sure.

8 Q. Sir, the simple fact that you did not see them, does that fact

9 exclude the possibility that they were perhaps present there?

10 A. Well, they could be present there.

11 Q. Thank you for that answer.

12 When you say that civilian targets were fired at, are you

13 referring in general to the situation such as you knew it or in particular

14 to incidents which you investigated?

15 A. Well, in particular to the incident which I investigated because,

16 as I mentioned earlier, that one of my tasks at the end of the day, daily,

17 was to go to the morgue and the Kosevo hospital to investigate or to see

18 for myself the casualties.

19 Q. Witness, how can you exclude the fact that there were no troops,

20 perhaps no soldiers, in such-and-such a place that you might have visited

21 after the explosion?

22 A. Well, I cannot determine that.

23 Q. Thank you for that answer.

24 Witness, do you know whether it is true - and we have testimony to

25 this effect - that in the vicinity of Markale, there was police post which

Page 9156

1 was -- which consisted of 60 or 65 men, between 60 and 65 policeman? Do

2 you know anything about this?

3 A. The most of the police station which I had visited, none of them

4 was having such a large number. But I don't remember police post near the

5 Markale marketplace.

6 Q. Witness, do you know where Drvarska Street is located?

7 A. I am sorry, I don't know.

8 Q. Do you know if there were other police posts in the Markale area?

9 A. Not in the -- the one police station which I can directly

10 remember in my area was Pofalici police station. It was a little far

11 away from the Markale.

12 Q. Very well. Witness, a while ago you spoke about civilian victims

13 in response to a question that was put to you. Is it true, Witness, that

14 a large part of the armed forces in Sarajevo didn't have a complete --

15 didn't have complete uniforms? Is that correct?

16 A. You are correct.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness.

18 Do you know whether women were also combatants?

19 A. Yes, there was some women in the army, too.

20 Q. Thank you for that answer, sir.

21 When you are shown the body in the morgue which might be the body

22 of a woman and which doesn't have a uniform, and doesn't have any wounds,

23 on the basis of seeing this body, what allows you to claim that it is the

24 body of a civilian or a member -- or of a member of the military?

25 A. Are you right, I mentioned that the day, it was a rotation day.

Page 9157

1 The weekend was a rotation day, and once I ask my interpreter why there is

2 so much of a rush here today in the marketplace. He said that in this

3 day, on this day, the soldiers come from the front line to exchange their

4 cigarettes for the food stuff. So you are right in saying that there

5 could be possibility and there must be also certain soldiers in civilian

6 clothes being part of that massacre.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. But my question didn't have to do with this

8 massacre in general. You said that one of your missions consisted of

9 going to verify the presence of bodies in the morgue; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you are shown a body in the morgue - and I

12 am not speaking about Markale; I am speaking in general - when you are

13 shown a body which doesn't have a uniform and which might be the body of a

14 woman, how can you categorically exclude that this isn't a loss which

15 happened in fighting, perhaps at the front line?

16 A. In some of this cases, it could have been as you say. But in

17 most of the cases, it was related to a bomb which had landed at a certain

18 place from where the casualties were evacuated.

19 Q. Thank you for that answer.

20 Have I understood your correctly when saying that on the basis of

21 seeing the body in the morgue and as a general rule, on the basis of

22 seeing the body, nothing would allow you to state whether this was the

23 body of a soldier or of a civilian?

24 A. I said, not in all cases.

25 Q. Thank you for this answer, sir.

Page 9158

1 I would like to continue with this question relating to shellings

2 and shots. Sir, do you know whether it is true - and we have testimony to

3 this effect - that very young children below the age which is usually

4 accepted as combatants were taken in by the BH army in order to carry

5 weapons, bear weapons?

6 MR. IERACE: I object to that question.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase that

8 question.

9 Q. Are you aware of the fact -- do you know whether there were very

10 young children in Sarajevo carrying weapons?

11 A. No, I didn't see, but one thing for sure. I had visited almost

12 this entire front of Sarajevo on my area of operation. I didn't come

13 across a single child, not a single child. That is for sure.

14 Q. Thank you, sir, for this answer.

15 I know that you are an officer, not an artillery officer but an

16 infantry officer, but I would appreciate it if you could provide me with a

17 technical answer. We think that we know that when there are artillery

18 shots, when mortar shells are fired, technique requires -- because of

19 technical reasons, the target is not hit by the first shot, there is a

20 long shot and then a short shot and afterwards you attain the target; is

21 that correct? Could you confirm this principle?

22 A. This principle is known as "bracketing," and you are right.

23 Q. Sir, is it true - because we have had testimony to this effect -

24 that what we as the Defence call the "margin of error" is roughly in the

25 region of 300 metres, a diameter of 300 metres -- or, rather, an area of

Page 9159

1 150 metres?

2 A. Generally, the artillery target or the mortar target is an area

3 target, and an area target, it could be a little more also.

4 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I remind you, I did some

6 computing on time. It was not easy this time. But I deduct all the time

7 in closed session and all the debate we had before. There would remain

8 another five minutes. Another five minutes would then remain.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, I will bear that in

10 mind, Mr. President. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, I would now like to address the question of shelling.

12 Can you confirm, because we have also received testimony to this effect,

13 could you confirm that when a mortar shell is fired, the effect is fairly

14 silent, it doesn't produce a loud noise?

15 A. Yes, as compared with the artillery. The mortar -- yes. But you

16 can't say it is silent.

17 Q. I said "fairly."

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we

19 please -- no, I will consult my colleague.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, do you know whether there were also sniper units in the

23 BH army?

24 A. I am not aware of it.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you had also carried out an

Page 9160

1 investigation into sniper incidents; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you said that you would often base yourself on the

4 investigations that had been carried out by the local police; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Well, our investigation, we would not officially report it unless

7 it was confirmed by UNMOs. So if a report was given by a local

8 policeman, we would add with the word "confirmed by UNMO." That would

9 mean that we were sure to agree.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.

11 One other question, Witness: Do you know what the 7th Brigade

12 was?

13 A. I told you earlier. It could be a brigade. I did not visit the

14 headquarters of this brigade, neither was I aware of it.

15 Q. I asked whether you knew what it was. Did you know that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Very well. Sir, if I tell you that this brigade was composed of

18 mujahedin, were you aware of this?

19 A. I am not aware of any mujahedin brigade in Sarajevo at least.

20 Q. Were you aware of any mujahedin brigades outside Sarajevo, perhaps

21 in Mount Igman, in the Igman mountain?

22 A. No. The only -- I have not seen it, but I heard that there was a

23 brigade operating in some central Bosnian location. I am sorry, I don't

24 know.

25 Q. When you talk about a brigade, are you talking about a mujahedin

Page 9161

1 brigade?

2 A. Yes, this is what the question you asked.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. And my very last question: How could you claim,

4 since you yourself had not seen the shots, that the incidents in question

5 was sniper incidents since fighting was going on, and one is well aware of

6 the danger that stray bullets represent?

7 A. Well, as far as sniping is concerned, I said earlier that I was

8 myself sniped at while I was taking a civilian old woman from the sniper

9 alley, probably wounded then. The vehicle was -- my vehicle was sniped

10 at. The very fact that Sarajevo city itself contained large number of

11 these container vehicles, the trams, located at the place where the

12 civilian could crawl safely. The very fact was that one could hear lot of

13 sniping activity going on continuously inside the city. And most of the

14 sniping was done by a 12.7. So the wound made by a 12.7, it is little

15 more severe or more vital than a bullet at maybe in the confrontation line

16 like when they are fighting with 12.7, a smaller calibre, where there

17 could be a stray bullet coming in.

18 Q. Thank you for this information. I have to interrupt you. I have

19 another three short question. The first one is: Do you know whether the

20 BH forces also had a 12.7 calibre weapon?

21 A. Once I reviewed the heavy weapons. There was one anti-aircraft

22 gun which I remember taking it out, but I don't remember at this moment

23 whether it was 12.7 or some -- I don't remember the calibre. But it was

24 definitely one light anti-aircraft gun which I --

25 Q. I will interrupt you. The 12.7 that you have mentioned, was that

Page 9162

1 an anti-aircraft rifle, what one calls a triple-A gun, or was it a

2 personal weapon?

3 A. 12.7 is basically an anti-aircraft gun.

4 Q. Very well. Witness, do you know -- do you know the Zrak factory?

5 Say "yes" or "no," if you can?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness.

8 Could you tell us in which circumstances you remember the date of

9 the 16th of October, which you yourself corrected quite recently, that is

10 to say, in the course of this month?

11 A. I will need initial testimony or the initial investigating team

12 which came to my country, then I didn't bring my diary along. So I may

13 have missed the month, but the date was very, very clear in my mind. So

14 the second time, probably two years back, when I was again asked to give a

15 written statement from my country, on that day, I consulted my diary. And

16 I have my diary with me here. It says the 16th of October. And if you

17 see the diary, you can find that it cannot be a fabricated one.

18 Q. That is not necessary, Witness. That is not necessary. But could

19 you please just tell me, since the incident we have spoken about, the

20 shelling of the town was an incident that affected you, why didn't you

21 speak about this in the course of your first examination?

22 A. You are talking about 16th of October?

23 Q. I am talking about the incident in which two women were allegedly

24 hit by a mortar shell.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the questions asked by my friend

Page 9163

1 indicate some confusion, at least in the English translation. The

2 evidence of the witness in relation to the 16th of October was that the

3 city received in excess of 1500 or 2000 shells. There was another

4 incident where a woman and a child were shelled. The witness has not said

5 that the incident involving the woman and child happened on the 16th of

6 October.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't

8 mention a date with regard to this incident. I only mentioned the

9 incident in which these two women were targeted by a shell.

10 Q. Witness, why didn't you mention this fact at your first

11 examination?

12 A. You are referring to the first testimony or -- not the testimony,

13 the first investigation report?

14 Q. Witness, I am talking about your written statement which was

15 submitted a few years ago, I think you said, submitted to Mr. Jan Van Ecke

16 and to Mr. Asif Akhtar Syed?

17 A. You are right. That investigation was basically regarding the

18 Markale market.

19 Q. But why didn't you mention this fact, Witness, can you tell me?

20 A. I told them there was a lot of sniping activity. If they asked me

21 to quote a particular incident, I would have done it.

22 Q. Very well, Witness, since you could have done it, I have one last

23 question: The site where this shelling occurred, was it an open space

24 where it was possible to see everything or was it an enclosed space in

25 the city?

Page 9164

1 A. No, it was a street, smaller street, a narrower street than the

2 bigger street, but it was not so narrow that I couldn't see anything.

3 Q. Very well. Witness --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you took now 10 minutes, and you

5 said that this was the very last question. So this is really the last

6 question.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. As a result, Witness, you weren't able to know whether in one or

9 the other of the parallel streets there was a military objective; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further

13 questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Is there any need to re-examine

15 the witness?

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

18 Q. You were asked whether you came across children carrying weapons

19 and you replied: "I didn't come across a single child."

20 Did you mean by that, that you did not come across a single child

21 carrying a weapon or that you never saw children in Sarajevo?

22 A. I saw large number of children in Sarajevo, but none with a

23 weapon.

24 Q. All right. Now, you were asked questions about how you could tell

25 if a casualty in the hospital was a civilian or not. When you visited the

Page 9165

1 hospitals daily to check on the casualty figures, did you ever have an

2 interpreter with you?

3 A. Yes. Always.

4 Q. Did you ever speak to the wounded patients?

5 A. Yes, sometimes.

6 Q. Did you ever ask them what their occupation was?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did that ever assist you in determining whether or not the

9 shelling victim or sniping victim was, in fact, a civilian?

10 A. Yes, that is one of the major fact.

11 Q. You were asked whether -- you were asked some questions about the

12 sound that mortars make when they are fired and you said that they were

13 not as loud as artillery.

14 What about different size mortars? In other words, are you aware

15 as to whether the firing of 120-millimetre mortar makes more sound or less

16 sound or the same sound as, say, a 62-millimetre mortar?

17 A. It is 60-millimetre mortar, not 62. Definitely the calibre is

18 different and the sound is different.

19 Q. When a mortar is fired, is there a range of charges that can be

20 placed underneath the shell?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does the sound differ, according to the number of charges placed

23 under the shell?

24 A. Maybe. I am not sure.

25 Q. All right.

Page 9166

1 In that case, I won't ask you any more questions about that topic.

2 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

3 Q. You were asked questions as to whether you were able to determine

4 if a mobile target had been present near the site of shellings in

5 Sarajevo. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I think you were then asked as to possible mobile targets,

8 whether you had seen any tanks in the city, and you said you had not; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What were some of the places of impact of shellings that you

12 investigated? In other words, what type of places were they?

13 A. Most of the places which I investigated were, let's -- were places

14 where I couldn't find any military target. For like Kosevo hospital,

15 shelling inside the city or centre area, Dobrinja.

16 Q. All right. I think one target you mentioned at one point during

17 cross-examination was a house. You were explaining how you could tell if

18 a target was a civilian target or not, and I think you gave an example of

19 a house which contained civilians and no military equipment. Do you

20 remember saying that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Approximately how many shelling incidents that you visited

23 involved shelling of houses?

24 A. A number of them. Well, this particular incident I am referring

25 was it was in the city that -- the center city, and it was a direct

Page 9167

1 hit inside an apartment where the inhabitants were living.

2 Q. How many of the shelling sites you investigated involved not just

3 houses but buildings of whatever description?

4 A. Well, the buildings -- most of the buildings were inside the

5 city, the high buildings.

6 Q. Are you able to assist us with an approximation of the percentage

7 of shelling incidents that you investigated where the site of the shell

8 impact was a building of some description or another?

9 A. Well, that is very difficult to at this moment.

10 Q. All right. If you can't do it, that is all right.

11 When you questioned surviving victims, did you ever ask them

12 whether there were any military weapons nearby or equipment or soldiers at

13 the time that the shell impacted?

14 A. No, but if at times you used to visit that place and see for

15 ourself that were there any -- like the incident I specifically quoted in

16 my testimony about the Kosevo hospital shelling. In that particular

17 incident, I, along with my team members, we search the complete area of.

18 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

20 Since the Bench has no further questions to you, this concludes

21 your testimony given in this court. I thank you very much for having

22 come the long way to The Hague. I also especially thank you for the

23 patience you showed when we were dealing with other matters and I wish

24 you a safe trip home again.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

Page 9168

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Colonel Niaz out

2 of the courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assist us in the

5 paperwork.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D112, map marked by witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but was it finally marked? It was intended to

8 be marked but no marks were put on the map.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Well, can

10 it be returned to us? What is important is that the witness could not

11 write anything into the map, so that we will take it back.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For our witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think the time is too short to start with the

15 examination of the next witness but let me just, for another reason,

16 confer.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: The parties should prepare for the trial to resume

19 tomorrow as scheduled normally. So at this very moment, a request for a

20 one-day delay is denied.

21 As the Chamber indicated before, if we find that there is any need

22 for further time to prepare for cross-examination, we will also determine

23 how much that time would be. But it is our experience that it can be

24 better assessed very often once we know the problem and when we have heard

25 the examination-in-chief. So, therefore, we will start with the next

Page 9169

1 witness to be examined in chief tomorrow in the afternoon.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I thank you for your

3 decision. We will take note of it. And the Defence will clearly state

4 that it is not in a position to start its cross-examination tomorrow.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has taken notice of this

6 observation.

7 If there is nothing else for this moment to be discussed, then we

8 will adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, same

9 courtroom.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 6.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 29th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.