1 Wednesday, 17 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Is the Defence ready to continue the cross-examination of

12 Mr. Philipps?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would just

14 like to mention that my learned friends have not given me the documents

15 that they promised yesterday.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What were these documents exactly?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave them a list of

18 the ERN numbers, and my colleague said in the break that he would disclose

19 the documents to me during the day.

20 MR. IERACE: My apologies, Mr. President. I had that bundle

21 yesterday and I had thought I had a spare copy and that the Defence had

22 another copy. I do apologise for that. Perhaps I could hand them over

23 now.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least that is better than nothing. Under

25 these circumstances, knowing that Mr. Ierace was so glad to give them to

1 you, I think perhaps an extra call would have assisted him in preventing

2 that he would have to apologise this morning, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 Yes, Madam Registrar, would you then please escort Mr. Philipps

4 into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 WITNESS: RICHARD PHILIPPS [Resumed]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Philipps, may I remind you that you are still

8 bound by the solemn declaration you give at the beginning of your

9 testimony.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Philipps, good morning. Yesterday, towards

12 the end of the session, I asked you a question, whether you knew who gave

13 out tasks in the mortar sector and who was part of the battalion group,

14 who was the commander of the section.

15 First of all, I wanted to ask you whether in the course of the

16 analysis of these documents, whether you knew or had any information

17 about the sector commanders.

18 A. By "sector commanders," I take it you mean section commanders?

19 Q. Mr. Philipps, yes, section commander in the mortar platoon, if

20 there was such a battalion, a mortar battalion, in any of the brigades.

21 So within that battalion, there is a section.

22 A. I can answer the question how it might be generally, but I have no

23 specific information from the documents relating to the orders from a

24 battalion commander to his mortars.

25 Q. As part of the battalion, could you tell us who issued orders to

1 the section commander from the battalion?

2 A. Generally speaking, a battalion commander would be responsible

3 for the orders to the mortars that formed part of his battalion.

4 Q. Mr. Philipps, while analysing the documents, did you come across

5 a document based on which you could see that the commander of the brigade

6 issues orders to the section commander?

7 A. I have not seen a specific document where the brigade commander

8 gives orders to battalion assets, that is, directly to the mortars.

9 However, from the structure we can see that, in some cases, mortars were

10 under the command of the brigade commander, but not those mortars which

11 were a part of the battalions.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Philipps. Mr. Philipps, yesterday when we talked

13 about the 4th Mixed Anti-armour or Anti-tank Regiment, you told us and we

14 see how you presented that on the diagram. This is slide number 64.

15 Would you agree with me that in the 4th Mixed Anti-armour

16 Artillery Regiment would have only anti-armour weapons?

17 A. Generally speaking, I would expect to find only anti-armour or

18 anti-tank weapons in a mixed anti-tank artillery regiment.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Philipps, may I just interrupt you. I think we

20 asked you yesterday to, if possible, whether you could show the slide Ms.

21 Pilipovic is referring to. I think it is slide 64. Thank you.

22 Please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Philipps, could you explain to us the organisational structure

25 of the 4th Mixed Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment?

1 A. The only information I have about the structure of the 4th Mixed

2 Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment is shown on slide 64. And as you will see,

3 it shows three artillery batteries. This would be unusual, but was the

4 information with which I was provided.

5 Q. So you would agree with me that on this chart of yours, the

6 composition of the 4th Mixed Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment is not usual,

7 it is not in accordance with the regulations?

8 A. As I think I stated yesterday, I tried -- well, I did not use the

9 structures of the 4th JNA Corps to come to my conclusions about the

10 structures of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. So the composition of the 4th

11 Mixed Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment under the JNA, I did not use that

12 structure to superimpose it upon the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. I would

13 expect, or would have expected, to have seen these three artillery

14 batteries within the mixed artillery regiment rather than the mixed

15 anti-tank artillery regiment. This may be a mistake in the statement,

16 but it is not, in a sense, not up to me to decide that the individual who

17 stated he saw these things is incorrect, unless I have information which

18 contradicts it or shows it to be wrong. That is why I have shown them as

19 unconfirmed with dotted lines.

20 Q. Mr. Philipps, I am asking you these questions because it is

21 something that is a part of your expertise. You are a military expert. I

22 would also like to ask you this question regarding the 4th Mixed

23 Anti-tank Artillery Regiment. This is slide 65. Could you tell us --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was the 4th Mixed

25 Artillery Regiment.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you please tell us whether it was part of the division?

3 A. To understand your reference to a division, the 4th Mixed

4 Artillery Regiment and the 4th Mixed Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment, as I

5 understand it, formed part of the corps artillery group. But I have only

6 seen one reference to a corps artillery group. Generally speaking, these

7 regiments seem to act independently but under the control of the corps

8 headquarters. I am not quite sure about your reference to a division.

9 Q. Mr. Philipps, while you were analysing the documents, come across

10 a document which would indicate that the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment had

11 a Howitzer division of 150 millimetres, 122 millimetres, and multi-rocket

12 launcher?

13 A. I have shown on slide number 65 the information that I have

14 located relating to the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment, and this shows a

15 series of different batteries, some of which were detached at various

16 times to other brigades and some of which remained part of the 4th Mixed

17 Artillery Regiment.

18 Q. Did you have information that when we are talking about the

19 artillery battalion which was part of the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment,

20 that there were two corps artillery groups that were formed; one of them

21 was at the Nisici front and the other one was north of Sarajevo?

22 A. I was not aware that there were two different corps artillery

23 groups that had been formed, however, I am aware that some of the

24 artillery was detached and supported operations on the Nisici plateau with

25 the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.

1 Q. Could you please tell us which documents you used for your chart

2 for the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment?

3 A. Yes. I will just have to consult the index.

4 Q. Mr. Philipps, so that we don't lose time, could you please tell us

5 whether for this kind of information, including slide 64, for the

6 anti-tank and the mixed artillery regiment, did you have one document or

7 did you have several documents?

8 A. Looking at the diagram, the fact that there are dotted lines

9 around these units means, to my mind, they are unconfirmed as shown on

10 the legend and, therefore, without looking at the index, I would assume

11 that they are from only one document.

12 Q. Would you agree with me in view of the fact that you only had one

13 document and that this information is unconfirmed, that this chart, when

14 we are talking about these two artillery regiments, the chart does not

15 correspond to the organisational structure of either of the regiments?

16 A. Unfortunately, I only have the information in the documents that I

17 used. If there is any further information as to the structure of these

18 organisations, then it is not in my possession.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to that last question, it

20 would be fair for my learned colleague to indicate to the witness the

21 respects in which the organisational structure is, according to the

22 Defence, incorrect.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, Ms. Pilipovic - I hope you are

24 listening as well, Mr. Philipps - I do understand that if you use a dotted

25 line, you say the information on which I have drawn these conclusions are

1 rather weak and, therefore, the conclusions are just as weak because I

2 didn't find any confirmation, which would mean that the parts with the

3 dotted lines are either true or not true. You are not certain about that

4 and you make some reservation. So, therefore, Ms. Pilipovic, if you ask

5 whether the structure on the slide is not correct, I think the expert

6 witness answered that question already, that he says that, "The only

7 information I have would drive me in this direction to assume that this

8 is true." And, therefore, if you say it is not true, the only possible

9 answer, I think, could be that if there is other information which

10 indicates it is not true, that perhaps Mr. Philipps would easily accept

11 or at least take that information into consideration while again

12 looking at the conclusions, but then it would be conclusions drawn up on

13 other documentary basis.

14 So, therefore, I think it is not very useful to put this question

15 to the witness. But if there is any specific information which you think

16 would contradict this or if you know that it is not true, than please

17 confront the witness with that instead of asking him questions which,

18 according to the testimony until now, could result in only one predictable

19 answer.

20 Please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But what

22 I wanted to get from the witness, Mr. Philipps, as a military expert, I

23 expected an answer in which Mr. Philipps would explain what comprises the

24 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment in accordance with the Rules of the Yugoslav

25 Rules or the Sarajevo Romanija Corps which applied the JNA rules.

1 JUDGE ORIE: That is fine. Then please ask him to do so. So the

2 question now is what, according to JNA rules, should be or should have

3 been the composition of certain mixed artillery regiment.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that I already asked that

5 question, but I hope that Mr. Philipps will reply to this question now.

6 THE WITNESS: I can reply to the question by saying that I would

7 expect a regiment, but again whether this applies specifically to the JNA

8 is outside my knowledge, as I did not use the structure of the JNA 4th

9 Corps to put together the structure of the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment.

10 The information I used were orders signed by General Galic relating to the

11 mixed artillery regiment and instructions regarding the handover of

12 artillery units to other brigades. This is the source of the structure

13 that I have.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Philipps, slide 66, we have got the 4th Light Artillery

16 Regiment for anti-aircraft defence. Was information -- we are talking

17 about slide 66. Was information also not available which could confirm

18 the accuracy of this chart, in view of the fact that you used a dotted

19 line here? This is slide 66.

20 A. Again, the only information that I was able to use on the 4th

21 Light Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment, in this case, was a Defence

22 document. I have the reference here in front of me. The document is

23 dated the 4th of October, 1993, and is a stamped order issued by the

24 Sarajevo Romanija Corps command on that date, attaching the 1st Light

25 Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment's 20-millimetre guns to another brigade.

1 And hence I have shown on the chart that on the 4th of October, these

2 weapons were detached to the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, using the

3 abbreviation in the original document the "1st RPBR." I have used the

4 original abbreviation in case my interpretation of that abbreviation was

5 incorrect. And that was the only source of weapons for the 4th Light

6 Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Philipps, slide number 69, the 4th Engineers

8 Battalion. Do you know, did you have information that this battalion was

9 organised according to companies and platoons and not in accordance with

10 groups?

11 A. I would imagine an engineer battalion would normally be organised

12 into companies and then split from companies into platoons. The source of

13 the structure on page 69 is an order by the then Colonel Stanislav Galic

14 relating to future activities and combat activities of the Sarajevo

15 Romanija Corps. I would have to look up the date of that instruction.

16 The translation of obstacle construction group comes from the B/C/S

17 abbreviations, military abbreviations, I believe, of GZ, EGZ, and GOP.

18 This slide only show as very small part of the engineer battalion.

19 Q. Mr. Philipps, yesterday when we talked about the document about

20 the appointment of Mr. Marko Zubic, who according -- which according to

21 you is a document which you cited in your charts and stated that

22 Mr. Sipcic, according to you, based on that document, was on duty as corps

23 commander during the months of July and August.

24 Do you have this document in front of you?

25 A. I don't have a copy of that document in front of me.

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1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has a

2 copy so I would like to have this document shown to Mr Philipps, and we

3 can also place it on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you going to tender the document or is it

5 just for the expert witness to...

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would just like to

7 have Mr. Philipps explain this document to us.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please put it on the ELMO, Madam Usher.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Philipps, in the lower right corner of this document, it says,

11 "Commander Major General Tomislav Sipcic"?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Is it correct that there is no signature of Mr. Sipcic on this

14 document?

15 A. Yes, there is no signature.

16 Q. A document which bears no signature by the person whose name and

17 surname are on the document, for you as an analyst, what would be the

18 weight of that document if it had no signature?

19 A. It has less weight with no signature, but it does have an official

20 stamp and the signature of someone else in the organisation.

21 Q. If I put it to you that this document could have been issued as a

22 blanket document, would you then consider it had the same weight if

23 another person had signed it? Basically, does this document prove to you

24 that Mr. Tomislav Sipcic was occupying this post at the time?

25 A. No. As a single document, it is merely information that

1 Tomislav Sipcic may have been the corps commander at that period of time

2 and would require confirmation from other documents or other sources to

3 put General Tomislav Sipcic as the corps commander at that period.

4 Q. So, what you are saying is that this information that you

5 have inputted into your charts, that this is the period when

6 Mr. Tomislav Sipcic was a major general and he was the corps commander,

7 this is information which is still unconfirmed?

8 A. The positioning of General Sipcic as a corps commander was based

9 on this document and a separate witness statement by the Sarajevo Romanija

10 Corps.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may just confer

12 with my colleagues, please.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

15 nothing further.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just while that document is on the

19 ELMO, might the camera pan up so that we can see the ERN number.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

22 Q. Mr. Philipps, you said that you attributed weight to the document

23 in part because of the stamp and the signature. What does the stamp say,

24 for the record?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no

1 interpretation. I don't have interpretation and Mr. Galic has no

2 interpretation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So we have first, we will have to solve the technical

4 problem. I see that there is some --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone in the B/C/S booth has still not been

6 fixed, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So we are still facing the problem of only one

8 microphone. We can now continue, but may I ask the technical booth, it is

9 now the second day that there is only one microphone properly functioning

10 in the B/C/S booth, that proper attention will be paid to it during the

11 first break.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Mr. Philipps, I was asking you what words, if any, can be

15 discerned in the stamp, but perhaps going on the ELMO, do these letters

16 appear in the form of a word, "K-o-m-a-n-d" and then is there an "a" after

17 the "d"?

18 A. I see the words commander, Komanda Korpusa.

19 Q. Have you seen that stamp before?

20 A. I have seen that stamp before.

21 Q. On what type of documents have you seen that type of stamp

22 before?

23 A. It is -- I have seen it on documents that relate to documents

24 coming from the corps command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown a two-page

1 document. I have one additional copy. Perhaps that could go to the

2 Defence.

3 Q. Mr. Philipps, do you read B/C/S?

4 A. I can understand one or two military terms, but I have no real

5 understanding of the language.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that the witness

8 does understand French because he is still going very quickly. I am

9 listening to the B/C/S booth, Serbian booth, which is going very fast.

10 Can we please slow down with questions and answers. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The last four words would have been sufficient.

12 Please proceed, and could you please slow down.

13 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mr. Philipps, are you able to say whether the document in front of

15 you appears to be a draft translation of the B/C/S document you were shown

16 by the Defence a few minutes ago?

17 A. It looks very much like it, but I do notice that the name of the

18 individual that signed the document is in fact missing from the draft

19 translation, otherwise, it is a -- appears to be a draft translation of

20 that document.

21 MR. IERACE: Might the translation please be returned to me.

22 Q. The document that is the draft translation contains these words:

23 "Within the scope of carrying out combat operation tasks, Marko Zubic is

24 hereby assigned to the establishment post that exists in the corps

25 command."

1 Was Marko Zubic someone that you included in the chart?

2 A. I will have to consult my notes for that.

3 Q. All right. If it may assist you, he is described in the earlier

4 part of the document, according to the draft translation, as a reserve

5 major. Is someone of that rank likely to appear in the chart by name?

6 A. It would depend on his position, rather than his rank. And

7 looking at my index, I see that reserve Major Marko Zubic does appear on

8 the chart. I can attempt to find him on a slide, if required.

9 Q. And according to the document you have just consulted, was there

10 any other reference or source as to Marko Zubic?

11 A. Apart from that document, there was a witness statement from the

12 assistant commander for logistics.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in due course I will seek to tender

15 the draft translation. I ask the witness be shown another document,

16 together with a translation. It is the only copy I have so I will ask

17 that, firstly, the B/C/S document be placed on the ERN. Perhaps it could

18 be placed so that we can see the ERN number which is at the top of the

19 page.

20 Q. Mr. Philipps, yesterday you were asked questions about the

21 formation of the Vogosca operations tactical group. For the benefit of my

22 learned colleagues, that question appears at page --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we have the reference so

25 that we can check. Thank you, Mr. President.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Ierace started a sentence to give you the

2 reference, so it might have been wise to let him finish. And if it would

3 have been not understandable, that you would have asked for further

4 specifications.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. The page is 11.729,

7 commencing at line 1.

8 Q. You were asked whether you had any knowledge about the formation

9 of the group and whether you knew why it was formed and whether you had

10 any information about that. You, in essence, replied that there may be

11 information in your list of documents. Would you please go to your list

12 of documents and assist us as to whether the B/C/S document on the ERN --

13 I am sorry -- on the ELMO was one such document.

14 A. In my index to the chart, I have listed under Vogosca operational

15 tactical group ERN number Y0003262. Y0003262: an order by a Colonel

16 Dragan Marcetic relating to the forming of the VRS TG Vogosca.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I might indicate that the document was

18 provided by the Defence on the 12th of June, 2001.

19 Q. Would you now go to the other document and place that on the ELMO.

20 Are you able to say whether the document now on the ELMO which is in the

21 English language appears to be a translation of the B/C/S document for

22 which you just gave us the ERN number.

23 A. It appears to be the same document, based on the names of the

24 units and individuals.

25 Q. And can you tell us where the document emanated from and what type

1 of document it is, according to the information on the document.

2 A. The document has come from the corps headquarters of the Sarajevo

3 Romanija Corps, that is, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps command, and has

4 originated from the deputy corps commander or chief of staff, Dragan --

5 Colonel Dragan Marcetic, and is an order to form a Vogosca tactical or

6 operational group from four separate brigades.

7 Q. Is it dated the 19th of June, 1993?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Is it indicated in these words to be "very urgent"?

10 A. Yes, in capitals, at the top, it says: "very urgent."

11 Q. Does one of the earlier paragraphs, in essence, explain the reason

12 for the formation of the group?

13 A. Yes, really the first paragraph of the order is a preliminary

14 explanation of the reason for the formation.

15 Q. Do the words "I order" thereafter appear in capitals?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Would you please read item one under the words "I order"?

18 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the camera can pan back a little.

19 THE WITNESS: Under the words "I order," it states: "Form the

20 Vogosca tactical group composed of the Ilijas, Kosevo, Vogosca and

21 Rajlovac Brigades. Lieutenant-Colonel Dragan Josipovic is commander, in

22 addition to his regular duties."

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. Would you please read part of or start to read the next paragraph?

25 A. "The Vogosca TG commander will, when operations are ordered,

1 unite the entire combat operations of these brigades in a single

2 operational and tactical whole, with the aim of inflicting the greatest

3 possible losses of personnel and TMS, technical equipment and materiel, on

4 the enemy, halting enemy penetration on the specified axis, recovering

5 lost positions in the operating zone of the units mentioned, and thereby

6 remove the dangers to special production enterprises and create

7 conditions for further offensive operations."

8 Q. Please stop there.

9 Do you know what the initials TMS refer to?

10 A. TMS is a B/C/S abbreviation which refers to logistic requirements,

11 that is, technical equipment and materiel. By that I mean ammunition and

12 supplies required for fighting.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. IERACE: Might those documents be returned. Mr. President,

15 in due course, I will seek to tender both the original and the

16 translation.

17 Q. Finally, Mr. Philipps, would you please go back to slide 66, about

18 which you were asked some questions. In the box with the bold line, in

19 particular in the middle of the box, we see a head and shoulders symbol

20 for Mr. Ugresic. The symbol is shown with a dotted line. What does the

21 fact that the figure that is in the dotted line indicate, if anything?

22 A. The figure itself appears dotted simply through the nature of the

23 display. The figure should simply be blue, with a blank face, rather than

24 dotted.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that complete re-examination.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or

2 more questions to put to you.

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Although it is probably well-known to

6 everybody, sometimes names change from army to army and from country to

7 country. So I would like to know -- we don't have that in our records

8 until now, as far as I remember. I would like to know the rank of the

9 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, starting, let's say, from the 2nd lieutenant

10 until General Mladic.

11 A. Generally speaking, there is a laid down regulation for the rank

12 in each position. However, within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the

13 shortage of officers was such that many officers held positions that were

14 much higher than their rank would normally afford. You would expect to

15 see, in charge of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, a major general. In charge

16 of each of the brigades would be a full colonel. Each of the battalions

17 would be commanded normally by a major in the JNA or the Sarajevo Romanija

18 Corps. Below that, companies were commanded by captains, and below that,

19 it is possible that platoons were commanded by 2nd lieutenants, though

20 more normally they would be commanded by senior noncommissioned officers.

21 Sections themselves would be commanded by ranks, a noncommissioned

22 officer such as a lance corporal. However, in reality,, we see that in

23 one situation a sergeant was commanding a brigade, admittedly a small

24 brigade, but nevertheless a sergeant was in charge of quite a large

25 organisation of a battalion size, although called a brigade. The ranks

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1 did vary and so although we might see, for example, a lieutenant colonel

2 in charge of an artillery regiment, he may later have been replaced by

3 someone as low in rank as captain.

4 So the variations in the ranks are quite dramatic to what you

5 would normally expect to see in any army.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Which was the rank of Genera Mladic?

7 A. I would, unfortunately, be surmising on his rank at any particular

8 point. I understood that he was a colonel general. That is one rank

9 higher than a major general.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No further questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has a question for you.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 [Interpretation] Sir, I would like to ask you to clarify point.

14 Having done your analysis of the structure of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

15 did you find out about the existence of snipers and also their

16 relationship to the corps command, if this existed, of course.

17 A. The term "sniper" is used very often to refer simply to someone

18 who is shooting at a specific target. But if we are now talking about

19 trained snipers, that is individuals who are specifically designated as

20 snipers, then each unit of a size of a platoon, that is, a relatively

21 small unit, should have at least one sniper attached to it. Each

22 battalion would have a small group of snipers attached to it, and each

23 brigade would have a sniper platoon.

24 So, at each level, trained snipers were supposedly, that is

25 according to the regulations, attached and under the command at that

1 particular level. At the corps level, there is no specific sniper unit.

2 So I have seen no specific information that there was a corps level

3 sniping organisation. The highest level I have seen sniping unit is at a

4 brigade level.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have another

6 question. Did you find out about the relationship, if any, between the

7 corps and paramilitary formations?

8 A. The existence of paramilitary formations, to use that term, is

9 shown on the chart with the one example of a unit that I could not link

10 directly to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. And that is shown on the

11 right-hand side of the chart. Other organisations which had been termed

12 "paramilitary" were later shown or may have been incorporated within the

13 corps itself, that is, were no longer paramilitary, that is outside the

14 military, but were brought into the military and under the command of the

15 corps.

16 The example I have located does not appear to be part of the

17 structure of the corps, as there is no command relationship that I have

18 located between the corps headquarters and the paramilitary organisation,

19 and there is no VP number or vojni post number for this organisation and

20 it is shown on the chart under the name of the officer in charge,

21 Vidovic.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Philipps, this concludes your

24 evidence before this Chamber. I usually thank those for coming from a

25 long distance to this courtroom. I think that would not be appropriate.

1 But it is not of less importance that you came and answered all the

2 questions of the parties and of the Bench. So, therefore, thank you and

3 -- well, the safe trip home is not as usual as well.

4 Madam Usher, can you please escort Mr. Philipps out of the

5 courtroom.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I indicated yesterday that I would

9 seek to tender formally the additional references that were referred to.

10 As well, this morning I indicated three other documents. I don't have

11 copies of those documents. Would you prefer that the Prosecution made the

12 necessary number of copies and then formally sought to tender those

13 documents later in the day?

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that would be preferable. Because if there

15 would be whatever objection, we might have difficulties without looking at

16 the document, very often, to decide on objections. So, therefore, we

17 prefer to have that done later this day. Perhaps it would then be a good

18 idea to deal with all the documents, both Defence and Prosecution

19 documents, at the same time subsequently and not to deal with part of them

20 now and part of them later today.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Before I call the next witness,

22 you may remember yesterday I pointed out that the witness --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise but

24 before Mr. Ierace goes on further, perhaps you could authorise us --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- for our expert to leave.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Yes, your

3 expert out of the courtroom. Of course, it is public session, so if he

4 wants to follow the proceedings, he is perfectly free to do so in the

5 public gallery.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Yesterday, I foreshadowed that the next witness will

8 be marking some maps in the witness box, unless the Trial Chamber has

9 approved for him to do it out of court. It then lapsed in the course of

10 business of the day. So we did not ask the witness to do that yesterday

11 afternoon. However, I have in mind, if it is acceptable to the Trial

12 Chamber, that during one of the breaks - perhaps the first break - the

13 witness will carry out that task so as to save court time. I raise it now

14 in the absence of the witness so that the Trial Chamber could consider

15 whether you think that is an appropriate course, and then the witness

16 could be instructed, if you think it is appropriate, to do that during the

17 break. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would not

20 agree with the proposal of my learned colleague that the witness should

21 mark a map without the presence of the Defence and the Chamber.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber would prefer the marking to

24 be done in court, but let's -- I mean, marking as such, the time it takes

25 would be approximately the same in and out of court. So perhaps we can do

1 it in a speedy way, of course, without making any mistakes, but that

2 is the same in or outside court.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps -- I am sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

5 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I should explain a little about the

6 background of the maps, to save time. These maps comprise separate maps

7 for each individual scheduled incident, sniping and shelling, and as well,

8 I think the unscheduled incident number one. The maps were prepared

9 within the OTP and indicate the confrontation lines based on information

10 available to those who prepared the maps. The maps have been shown to the

11 witness, and he has indicated that they are not entirely correct in terms

12 of the position of the confrontation lines.

13 So that is the nature of the changes that he will be making. The

14 witnesses who prepared the maps are -- have been dropped or not included

15 because of the pressure on the OTP to finish by the due date. I don't --

16 I take it view that there is nothing of significance which requires him to

17 be called, especially since we now have the head of the relevant army who

18 can, from his own recollection and knowledge, indicate the position of

19 the confrontation lines. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you would ask the witness in general

21 whether a map with confrontation lines on it would be correct, and if not,

22 whether he could adjust. I mean, that would take not much time, I hope.

23 If that --

24 MR. IERACE: Except that there are 30 maps, one for each incident.

25 But perhaps, Mr. President, I can take it to a certain point in the

1 examination-in-chief and then if you wish to reconsider, that can be done.

2 But I will take it to a point where you will be better seized of the

3 background and the task involved.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will see how it develops. I take it that

5 the 30 maps are partly overlapping each other.

6 MR. IERACE: I should say this: There is less than 30. Some maps

7 refer to more than one incident.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would the maps overlap, would the parts of

9 a specific map overlap --

10 MR. IERACE: Yes. For instance, the Dobrinja shelling map

11 clearly has an area which relates to some of the sniping issues. But the

12 sniping maps necessarily in more detail because, of course, the position

13 becomes more critical as you go down in scale.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But perhaps we would not ask a witness, if he

15 made corrections on one map, to make the same corrections on another map

16 where the same front lines appear.

17 MR. IERACE: I thought of that, Mr. President. It doesn't work.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's see how we can proceed. Then

19 you are ready to call your next witness, which would be?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. Karavelic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karavelic. Madam Usher, would you please escort

22 the witness into the courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

25 understand?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, Mr. Karavelic,

3 I presume, you are required to make a solemn declaration that you will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text will

5 be handed out to you now by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make that

6 solemn declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Karavelic. Please be seated. You

10 will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

11 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 Q. Sir, would you please give your full name, date of birth, and

17 rank?

18 A. My name is Vahid Karavelic. I was born on the 7th of April, 1956,

19 in the village of Bresovik, municipality of Visoko, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My rank --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I do not want to disturb

24 Mr. Ierace, but sometimes it would be useful to have a visual contact with

25 the booth. I don't know whether the Prosecution will need the chart or

1 not. Perhaps we could avoid the problems if it is taken away. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever there is any need for contact, visual

3 contact, with the booth, and I noticed that you use visual signs several

4 times in such a way that I am not going to accept your request. If there

5 is anything to be communicated with the booth, it should not be done

6 either by using your hands or other communication. If there is any

7 problem, please address me.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. Sir, I think you were about to give us your rank.

11 A. General Major.

12 Q. What is your present position or occupation? Or should I say,

13 what duties do you have?

14 A. I am currently working in the joint command of the army of the

15 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the joint command, I am the chief of

16 the section for plans and operations.

17 Q. Is that in the joint staff of the army of the Federation of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in 1975, did you join the former JNA? Did you enlist?

21 A. That year, I enlisted to the first year of the military academy

22 in Belgrade.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question is very leading.

24 It gives the year and it gives what the answer should be. I don't think

25 it is admissible.

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may recall that I was invited by

2 the Defence to ask leading questions in relation to the background of

3 witnesses called by the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute as to 1975 or as to the JNA?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

6 this --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you whether that is in dispute or not.

8 It is either "yes" or "no."

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

10 this because the problem is the following: I cannot memorize everything

11 and, therefore, if dates are given that I cannot memorize, the time that I

12 find them, the procedure -- the proceedings go on. That is the reason why

13 I am stating this.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interest of saving time, I will

15 rephrase the question. I will handle it differently.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. Did you join the JNA? Did you enlist in the JNA?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When?

21 A. In 1975, I went to the military academy, and in 1979 I received my

22 first rank and I began to work in the JNA.

23 Q. Now, ultimately, when did you leave the JNA?

24 A. I deserted from the JNA in December 1991.

25 Q. What was your rank before you deserted in December 1991?

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1 A. I was a captain, first class.

2 Q. Had you done further studies or attended courses from the time

3 that you left the military academy until December 1991?

4 A. Yes. I took a large number of courses, amongst them a course for

5 the battalion commanders in Sarajevo in 1986 which lasted for six months.

6 This is one of the most important courses that I took. After that, I took

7 the exam for the rank of major from 1987 to 1989, so I took this course

8 from two years and I was awarded -- or I took the exam for the rank of

9 major. I also attended other courses.

10 Q. Now, following your desertion from the JNA, did you become

11 involved in the military forces for the newly independent state of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes. After I left the Yugoslav People's Army, I joined the

14 resistance -- I joined the Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. When did you do that, that is, when did you join the Patriotic

16 League?

17 A. In early January 1992, I participated in the organisation and the

18 work of the Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. And at some stage did you become involved in the defence forces in

20 the form of the Territorial Defence?

21 A. On the 10th of February, 1992, I was officially appointed

22 commander of the district staff of Territorial Defence of Tuzla. And from

23 then on, I commanded the resistance in the area from -- of north-eastern

24 Bosnia up until the time I was captured.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have to

2 intervene. There is a part missing in the French translation.

3 "Territorial Defence" has only been interpreted as "sector," and this is

4 important.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean appointed commander of the district

6 staff of Territorial Defence of Tuzla. Yes. That has then been

7 corrected.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. In about April of 1992, did something happen to you?

11 A. On the 27th of April, 1992, I was captured and taken to Belgrade,

12 to the -- actually, to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica.

13 Q. Were you tried?

14 A. From April 28th until the 11th of May, I was taken before three

15 colonels every day, three colonels of the JNA, who processed me, and at

16 the end, they told me -- they asked me how I would like to be executed.

17 Q. May I interrupt because we are under severe time constraints. I

18 will stop you at that point and ask you a further point in a minute.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So the Defence can usually

21 cross-examine the witness later on, I see that the name of the prison or,

22 rather, the town where the prison is located wasn't mentioned in the

23 transcript. I know that this will be done, corrected in the night, but so

24 that we can cross-examine today, would it be possible to ask the witness

25 to spell the name of the town. Thank you.

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Might I suggest that that be done at

4 cross-examination rather than at this stage. I am very conscious of the

5 time constraint.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. On the other hand, I can

7 imagine that you might need the name of that village for preparing for

8 cross-examination.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if that is the case, then perhaps Mr.

10 Piletta-Zanin would care to read the statement that we gave him some time

11 ago from this witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If this is in the statement, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. IERACE: Page two, second last sentence or third sentence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that when a witness appears in this court

15 and gives testimony, that the party to whom a prior statement has been

16 disclosed uses that for the understanding of the testimony and if there

17 would be any need to do that in cross-examination, to verify whether it is

18 correctly understood, it can be done in cross-examination. And even

19 if you thought it be necessary, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it took you five

20 lines, when one would have certainly been sufficient.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I gave Mr. Ierace now the possibility to proceed.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Now, if it is possible for you to answer "yes" or "no," were you

1 tried? In other words, was there some sort of court hearing or

2 court-martial hearing?

3 A. I don't know what the role of those three colonels was, but I

4 think, yes.

5 Q. And at some stage, did you receive a sentence?

6 A. After the question how I would wish to be executed, they told me

7 that they will tell me their decision later. However, after that, there

8 was an exchange.

9 Q. As a result of the exchange, did you retrieve your freedom?

10 A. Yes, on the 13th of May.

11 Q. After that date, did you resume your military pursuits, your

12 military occupation?

13 A. After a brief period of time which I took to recuperate, I joined

14 the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And

15 then on September 1st, 1992, upon the formation of the 1st Corps of the

16 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was appointed deputy commander of that

17 corps.

18 Q. Until when were you the deputy commander of the 1st Corps?

19 A. Until the beginning of August 1993, when I was appointed the

20 commander of that corps.

21 Q. Now, did the 1st Corps play any role in the armed conflict in

22 Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995?

23 A. The 1st Corps of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 was the main body which performed all -- the defence activities regarding

25 Sarajevo.

1 Q. Did the 1st Corps have responsibilities of a military nature

2 outside the armed conflict in Sarajevo? In other words, were there other

3 arenas of military conflict under the responsibility of the 1st Corps,

4 apart from Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many troops were there by, say, mid-1993 within the 1st Corps

7 who were placed within the confrontation lines surrounding Sarajevo?

8 A. The 1st Corps of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 in the course of 1993, when it was -- it had the largest number of men,

10 comprised of 74.000 to 75.000 soldiers. In the town of Sarajevo, about

11 45.000 soldiers were posted and the rest were on lines outside of the

12 city of Sarajevo.

13 Q. Now, were women at any stage between August 1992 -- sorry --

14 September 1992 and August 1994, combatants within the 1st Corps?

15 A. I think that in early 1992 there were such cases, such examples.

16 However, from the end of 1992, we stopped with this practice, for several

17 reasons, and we kept women only in the commands in the medical corps, in

18 logistics, and on lighter duties.

19 Q. What was the earliest military age within the 1st Corps between

20 those same dates, that is, between September 1992 and August 1994?

21 A. Eighteen. And we also did have volunteers who would be under

22 eighteen.

23 Q. In relation to the volunteers, how young were the?

24 A. They would be one or two years younger than 18, but they always

25 had special status and we would wait for them to be 18, to reach the age

1 of 18.

2 Q. What did their special status involve? In particular, what type

3 of duties did those volunteers between 16 and 18 carry out?

4 A. Nothing special. They were placed on waiting lists.

5 Q. Well, did they have combatant duties? In other words, did the

6 volunteers, 16 year olds and 17 year olds, perform duties as combatants on

7 the front line, actually fighting?

8 A. No. We didn't permit that.

9 Q. Were the reserve police utilised by the 1st Corps as combatants

10 at any stage in that same period of time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What about civil defence? Were there any occasions when you would

13 use civil defence or civil protection, as it is sometimes known, to, say,

14 transport water or food to the troops of the 1st Corps?

15 A. If I may be allowed to stress the difference between the term

16 "civil protection" and "military duty."

17 The 1st Corps of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

18 the course of 1993, 1994 and 1995, in short time periods, did use the men

19 from the work obligation. Civil protection, during the entire period of

20 the aggression, carried out its own tasks and duties.

21 Q. When you say, "men from the work obligation" --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I may take it that you respond to a word used by the

23 witness.

24 Mr. Karavelic, this Court still has to decide on a lot of aspects

25 of the conflict. When you use the word "aggression," we would interpret

1 that as not aggression from your side but aggression from the Serbian

2 side. If there is no specific need to refer to aggression and if you

3 would, for example, you would just refer to the time of the conflict,

4 this Chamber would prefer you to use neutral words, unless there is a

5 specific reason why you would use another word. But the example we just

6 had, I think you were really referring to the entire period of the armed

7 conflict. So if you could do that. But if there is a specific reason why

8 you choose that word in answering the questions, of course, please

9 indicate so and we will listen to why you use that word.

10 I think it is time for the break anyhow.

11 Mr. Karavelic, we will adjourn. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there

12 was any issue left on from approximately 10 minutes ago you would like to

13 submit to the Chamber, then please do so.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There was a minute or so ago

15 in relation to the map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it was when you asked for a clarification as far

17 as the name of the village was concerned, where we spent some time on that

18 and when I gave the opportunity to Mr. Ierace to proceed. I got the

19 impression that there was perhaps some other issue that you would like to

20 raise.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. In the meantime, the name

22 appeared, following your intervention. It appeared in the transcript so I

23 was able to find it, and things are clear now. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

25 We will adjourn until 11.00.

1 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the

5 Defence has just received material which is extremely important and it is

6 only now we received it, although we have been waiting for this for ages,

7 we ask your Chamber for the possibility to talk about this for 10 or 15

8 minutes at some point so that we can get some answers from the

9 Prosecution. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wonder whether this issue has

12 anything to do with the cross-examination of the present witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If not -- is it in relation to this witness,

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, this is not

16 in relation with this witness. The witness may leave now and then we can

17 talk about it, but that would mean waste of time. I just need to confer.

18 Thank you.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We will then discuss the matter in due course and we

22 know that it will not affect the testimony of this witness. So it is not

23 urgent, we don't have to do it now, right away.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is urgent

25 to discuss it today, but not right away. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will see whether we find a moment to discuss

2 the matter. It would assist the parties if the Chamber would have

3 available one copy of the material so that we at least would know what we

4 are talking about, that might save time.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. Sir, before the break you told us that men who had a work

8 obligation in short time periods were used by the 1st Corps. What do you

9 mean by "men who had a work obligation"?

10 A. These were people, I presume, who were unfit for military service

11 for the army. These were people who were slightly more elderly, but on

12 the other hand, would be able to give their contribution to the work

13 obligation which is established in the law, since the law provides for

14 this possibility, for the state to use people in work obligation on

15 occasions. Every now and then, the 1st Corps, the command, would ask

16 the staff and then the staff would ask the Ministry of Defence, which

17 would then allow or authorise the use of people in such a way of smaller

18 units for the needs of work obligations.

19 Q. What type of duties would those people do for the 1st Corps? Can

20 you give us an example.

21 A. Building of temporary facilities, either above ground or

22 underground for troops accommodation, for instance.

23 Q. Did those duties include the digging of trenches?

24 A. Perhaps, yes. Perhaps, yes, deep within the territory.

25 Q. When you say, "deep within the territory," do you mean not at the

1 confrontation lines or do you mean something else?

2 A. That's precisely what I mean, not on the confrontation line.

3 Q. Who would use the trenches which were dug deep within the

4 territory? Military people? Civilians? Could you explain.

5 A. Military and civilians. For instance, most infrastructure

6 facilities for medical facilities, for kitchens, building of roads, they

7 would need to get supplies, then for sewage pipes and so on, for a

8 number of different types of work.

9 Q. Now, did the ranks, that is the upper ranks, of the 1st Corps

10 include any Sarajevans of the Serb community?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you give us an example or two?

13 A. For instance, at the main staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

14 the deputy commander of the main staff was General Jovo Divjak, a Serb.

15 And then at my command, in my corps command, two of my assistants were

16 officers of Serb nationality: My assistant for legal affairs throughout

17 the war was Colonel Zlatko Petrovic, a Serb, and then assistant for morale

18 in 1992 and 1993 was Colonel Rajko Mihajlovic, a Serb. And there were

19 many others.

20 Q. I want to ask you a few questions about armaments. At any stage

21 between the dates I mentioned earlier, did the 1st Corps have tanks?

22 A. The 1st Corps, throughout the period until the summer of 1994,

23 had only two tanks and they were inside the city. It could be also

24 mentioned that there was a third one which was never functioning, and

25 there was only one tank that we used for manoeuvres and used it in combat

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1 and for defence.

2 Q. What happened in the summer of 1994 in relation to your tanks, the

3 number of tanks?

4 A. In the summer of 1994, during one battle on a wider area on a

5 plateau between two mountains, Treskavica and Bjelasnica, the 1st Corps of

6 the Army of BH captured a large number of tanks and APCs.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if Mr. Ierace could

9 be a little more precise in his question, in his question about the summer

10 of 1994, if he could just be more precise, which month.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am just going to ask

13 for a technician, please. Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: For what, Mr. President?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the usual problem. I

16 must have done something wrong.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That is not necessary, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Sometimes

18 problems arise even without doing something wrong. Although the question

19 on what part of the year 1994 could have been put to the witness in

20 cross-examination, Mr. Ierace, I think it would be wise perhaps to follow

21 another question to specify.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 Q. When exactly did that happen, that your forces captured a large

24 number of tanks and APCs? In what month?

25 A. I think that it was in September 1994.

1 MR. IERACE: All right. I won't take that any further, for

2 obvious reasons, Mr. President.

3 Q. Did you have any rocket launchers between September 1992 and

4 August 1994?

5 A. We had -- there was mortars and then there was rocket launchers.

6 Could you please repeat your question? I didn't understand it.

7 Q. You mentioned then that there were rocket launchers. Did you

8 have any rocket launchers that worked between September 1992 and August

9 1994?

10 A. A rocket launcher, there isn't such a term.

11 Q. I see. Perhaps it is a translation problem. Do you understand

12 what is meant by a multiple rocket launcher, which is a series of tubes in

13 one unit which is capable of launching around a dozen rockets almost

14 simultaneously so that each of the rockets lands within the same

15 approximate target area?

16 A. We had a very small number of single rocket launchers, single tube

17 rocket launcher. We had a multiple rocket launcher called Orkan, but

18 throughout the period, we never had ammunition. We didn't have a single

19 rocket for this weapon.

20 Q. Did you have any ammunition for the single rocket launchers in

21 that period?

22 A. I don't think that we did.

23 Q. In relation to the ammunition and armaments available to the

24 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, according to your information, did they have any

25 specialist sniping weapons in that period?

1 A. I think that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps had a high percentage of

2 a type of sniper which their units had. I think that was the 7.9

3 millimetre calibre sniper 76 and it was produced by Kragujevac from

4 Yugoslavia.

5 Q. When you refer to 7.9, does that refer to the size of the

6 cartridge or the size of the bullet?

7 A. I think that this is the charge size, but I think that the bullet

8 is smaller. It is 7.62.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown a map from

10 the exhibit list. Excuse me. That is 3644.VK-3. Mr. President, it may

11 be that the Madam Registrar does not have a copy. I have a bundle here,

12 so I will hand those over to the court usher. I think the Defence has a

13 copy, Mr. President. It was included on our exhibit list.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has VK-2,

15 and Mr. Ierace said VK-3, so we want to make sure that there is no

16 confusion.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Are you using V-2 or --

18 MR. IERACE: VK-3. I think it is the same map.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then it is at least confusing to give it

20 different numbers.

21 MR. IERACE: It won't all fit on the ELMO, so perhaps that first

22 can simply be handed to the witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is VK-2 going to be used for other

24 purposes? I mean, it's --

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I suspect that in fact is an error,

1 and there is only one map, and for some reason it has been given two

2 separate numbers.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I see from a distance that Ms. Pilipovic had a

4 similar size map in her hand, but it is not the same one.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. This VK-2 has no

6 markings. It is the same scale but this VK-2 doesn't have markings and

7 VK-3 has some markings.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You have got VK-3 now, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

9 Okay, then please proceed.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it wasn't an error. They are separate

11 maps.

12 Q. Sir, do you recognise the map which is in front of you?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just so that we

14 agree on the numbers, this is VK-3 or VK-2 that we need?

15 JUDGE ORIE: VK-3.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Three.

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. Do you recognise that map?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you please read out the words which appear in heavy black

21 marker pen across the top of the map.

22 A. "Command posts of the command of the 1st Corps and of the

23 brigades of the 1st Corps of the Army of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993."

25 Q. In the bottom right-hand corner, does your name appear, together

1 with your signature, indicated as the Commandant, that is, Commander?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On the map we can see marked, with a blue pen, a number of sites

4 and symbols. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Some of those symbols and positions appear in the city and some

7 to the north of the city. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I will first ask you about the blue pen markings in the city. And

10 perhaps at this stage the part of the map which shows some symbols in the

11 left hand part of the city could be placed on the ELMO.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the second microphone of the witness

13 please be switched on. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please switch on the other

15 microphone of the witness as well. Yes, thank you.

16 MR. IERACE: To assist the court usher, they are numbered and

17 perhaps we could put on the screen the portion which shows numbers one,

18 two, and three. That is approximately in the centre of the map.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, so as to assist us, would you please take the

20 pointer that the usher will shortly hand you -- yes, and can you hold the

21 pointer on position number one so that the camera can be adjusted. Not on

22 the screen, but on the map itself.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. You will need some adjustment to the map. Sir, we will now move

25 the map so that we can all see where you are pointing.

1 A. The position number one, this is the location where the command of

2 the 1st Corps of the BH army was.

3 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, there are a number of symbols

4 that have a number one. I think there are two, to be precise. The

5 position that the witness now points to is directly south of the stadium.

6 Now, you said that was the location of the command of the

7 1st Corps of the BH army. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was at that site? In other words, what type of building was

10 it?

11 A. It was a building until 1992. It was the seat of a political

12 party.

13 Q. Did the building have a name?

14 A. I don't believe that it had a special name, no.

15 Q. How many floors did the building have?

16 A. It had two floors.

17 Q. Did the command occupy the entire building or only part of the

18 building?

19 A. The whole building.

20 Q. Was the building ever hit between September 1992 and August 1994

21 by fire which you understood to come from forces of the SRK?

22 A. Yes. Several times, once directly from a tank projectile.

23 Q. When you say, "by a tank projectile," do you know whether that was

24 in the mode of direct fire? In other words, was it possible from the

25 building to see SRK-held territory?

1 A. Yes, 360 degrees. At the smallest possible angle, there was a gap

2 that was found between the buildings, and a tank projectile arrived from

3 the Grdonj region and hit the building.

4 Q. Approximately when was that?

5 A. I think it was in the summer of 1994.

6 Q. Was there ever a policy that, or an agreement, that you and the

7 SRK command --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am objecting to this because

11 I think this will be a leading question. It is the way that the question

12 is phrased that this seems to me to be the case.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can inform the Trial Chamber that in

14 the culture of common law, criminal matters, it is not only permissible

15 but indeed is a requirement that witnesses have put to them propositions

16 which may not be of assistance -- well, if I would put it is a different

17 way, propositions which the witness is ideally placed to respond to and

18 which require a confrontation, in other words, require a response from

19 that obvious witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But a line has to be drawn between

21 -- I mean, the most perfect way of assisting a witness is, of course, to

22 put part of the answer in the question. I am not saying that you did, but

23 it is not -- could you perhaps first enquire of the witness whether any

24 specific arrangements were ever made in respect of headquarters, which I

25 think is the basis of your question.

1 MR. IERACE: As you please, Mr. President.

2 Q. General, were there any specific arrangements, as you understood

3 it, made between the warring parties in respect of targeting or not

4 targeting headquarters?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would you please now move to the box marked "1," which I think is

7 just to the right of box marked "1." Not immediately to the right but a

8 little further to the right.

9 Now, I think the box marked 1 had nothing inside it, whereas

10 the box marked 2 has a cross inside it, that is, from opposite angles

11 of the rectangle. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What does that symbol indicate?

14 A. It indicates the location of the brigade command.

15 Q. I appreciate that, but the symbol of a rectangle with a cross,

16 does that have any particular meaning?

17 A. I am not sure myself. I think perhaps it is just -- indicates the

18 level of the establishment unit or the formation.

19 Q. Now, you can take the pointer away for a moment. On the map we

20 see a number of similar boxes, that is, rectangles with crosses. Do each

21 of those indicate brigade command headquarters?

22 A. Yes. These do indicate precisely that.

23 Q. I will now ask you to point to a box which has a slightly

24 different symbol. Would you please move to the left of the city, and do

25 you see there a number of other boxes marked consecutively from 1 which

1 have not only a cross, but also a vertical line? If you could move

2 further to the left rather than to the right. In other words, to the west

3 of the -- yes, stop there. I see that you are pointing to such a box, in

4 fact, to the right.

5 What number is alongside that box?

6 A. The number 9 is written there, and I think that this symbol

7 indicates a motorised brigade.

8 Q. And what specifically does it indicate to be at that location?

9 A. Just as in the previous case, only the brigade command.

10 Q. Would you please now move your pointer to the western point of the

11 city. I think you will have to unfold some more of the map. And a moment

12 ago, you were close to a box which had "SPT" written on it and some

13 crosses above it, three crosses. What was at that position?

14 A. This was an ammunition depot, as well as of other lethal

15 ammunition of the corps.

16 Q. In what building or complex of buildings was that ammunition

17 depot?

18 A. This entire complex that I am pointing at, this was a barracks of

19 the JNA before the war, the Marsal Tito Barracks.

20 Q. Incidentally, when was this map made?

21 A. About a month and-a-half to two months ago.

22 Q. And did you make it?

23 A. Yes, I did, together with my officers, with the help of my

24 officers.

25 Q. Would you please continue to move to the left? And do you see

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1 another set of boxes numbered 1 and 2 and 3, and so on?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was in the positions indicated by those boxes?

4 A. These boxes, these three boxes, just as in the previous cases,

5 indicated the command posts of the brigade commands.

6 Q. Would you please move now down to the area of Dobrinja, and in

7 particular, a similar symbol marked number 5. Does that also indicate

8 a brigade command or a different type of facility?

9 A. Yes. It indicates the command of the Dobrinja Brigade, the 5th

10 Motorised Brigade.

11 Q. While we are in that part of the map, was there a tunnel operating

12 at some stage under the airport?

13 A. From August 1st, 1993, onwards, yes.

14 Q. Would you please take a blue marker pen and mark on the map the

15 position of the tunnel. First of all, are you able to do that? In other

16 words, do you remember where it was?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please take your time and indicate where the tunnel was.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. IERACE: The witness has placed a dark blue line running

21 across the runways.

22 Q. Would you please now return to the middle of the map and slightly

23 north of the city, where there appears a blue box and, inside it, some

24 writing. Could you please read the writing inside the box.

25 A. "The special purpose industry Zrak."

1 Q. What is the locality of that indicator? What settlement was

2 that?

3 A. Buca Potok.

4 Q. What was the special purpose industry Zrak?

5 A. Until the war, it was exclusively used for the manufacture of

6 optical products for the needs of the Yugoslav People's Army. During the

7 war, partially, to the extent that it could be used because of major

8 damage, it was used for the same purposes as well as for other purposes,

9 repair of weaponry. I can't specify exactly how much of it was used for

10 the production of other products of other weaponry and so on.

11 Q. And was that in the territory controlled by the 1st Corps?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Further north of that box, we see some different symbols. Perhaps

14 you could point to one, and there is one indeed to the right of the box, a

15 little further to the right. Yes.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 MR. IERACE: For the purposes of the transcript, the symbol is a

18 blue line with two shorter parallel lines, one on either side.

19 Q. What do those symbols indicate?

20 A. This symbol indicates a certain type of artillery weapon.

21 Q. What type of artillery?

22 A. I think that this is a general tactical symbol for artillery

23 weapons. In this case, there was a Howitzer of 105 millimetres located

24 there.

25 Q. On the screen at the moment, further north and slightly to the

1 west, there is a diamond symbol which you are now pointing to. What does

2 that symbol indicate?

3 A. The tank that I already talked about.

4 Q. I don't require you to point to this, but in the bottom left-hand

5 corner of the map, is there also a brigade headquarters indicated at

6 Hrasnica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, are you able to point to the whereabouts of the Supreme

9 Command of the ABiH in that same time frame, September 1992 through to

10 August 1994?

11 A. It's here, where I am pointing.

12 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and place a heavy cross on that

13 position.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. All right. That will do. You have placed a triangle. Now, in

16 summary, does this map show the positions of the brigade command

17 headquarters as of mid-1993, as you understand it, with the assistance of

18 your former -- some of your former subordinates?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That might -- before that is returned, I should add that, of

21 course, it shows the supreme command headquarters and the corps

22 headquarters as well. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. IERACE: Might that be returned.

25 Mr. President, might we go into closed session briefly. I imagine

1 it will take no more than 10 minutes, perhaps less.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this is in respect of protected

3 witnesses or material?

4 MR. IERACE: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed session.

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We are now in open session. Please proceed,

24 Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE:

1 Q. Sir, do you have in front of you a bundle of photographs -- I am

2 sorry -- a bundle of maps?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. IERACE: For the record, this bundle is P3728.

5 Q. Would you please look at the first of those maps which is marked

6 as "sniping incident 1 [now unscheduled]."

7 On the map, do you see two broken lines, one in dark green and the

8 other in light green, running approximately parallel across the map?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

11 Q. Assuming for the moment that the green lines indicate the

12 confrontation lines between the 1st Corps and the SRK as of November 1992,

13 do the lines appear to be correctly placed or not?

14 A. For the most part, yes, with the remark that this facility in the

15 corner called Strojorad, left from the red circle --

16 Q. Can I interrupt you there. Would you please place that part of

17 the map on the ELMO, with the assistance of the usher.

18 A. With the remark that this facility Strojorad was in the course of

19 1993 -- I cannot give you the exact date but it was handed over to the 1st

20 Corps, only this facility.

21 Q. Was all of that facility taken by the 1st Corps at that time or

22 part of it?

23 A. I think the whole facility as such.

24 Q. What type of facility was it?

25 A. It was a car mechanics service. It was publicly owned, a large

1 one.

2 Q. Would you please take the blue pen -- I withdraw that.

3 Is there a number 40 which appears in reddish-brown ink

4 immediately to the left of that facility?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did that change take place?

7 A. I cannot tell you the exact time.

8 Q. Do you remember what year?

9 A. Certainly in 1993, perhaps in 1994. I cannot confirm this without

10 additional consultations.

11 Q. Now, to the south of that facility we see the two green lines go

12 around an object which has the numbers 217 in it. What was the facility

13 at 217?

14 A. This was a sports stadium, football stadium.

15 Q. At any stage between September 1992 and August 1994, was there a

16 change in the confrontation lines at that spot?

17 A. Yes, but only in a minor part where --

18 Q. Please don't mark it at this stage. Go on. Don't mark the map,

19 but continue with your explanation.

20 A. In one or two cases, we took this corner of the stadium, but the

21 whole time, the stadium was under the control of the Sarajevo Romanija

22 Corps, and after a while, we lost the stadium.

23 Q. And I think you indicated the top left corner as one looks at the

24 map. Is that correct?

25 MR. IERACE: Yes, I think that can be agreed, Mr. President.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. Please now turn to the next map. Could you tell us whether the

4 confrontation lines are correct as of December 1992? Take your time to

5 familiarise yourself with the part of Sarajevo which appears in the map.

6 A. I think, yes.

7 Q. Please now go to the third map. Once you have familiarized

8 yourself with the area, are the confrontation lines correct as of April

9 1993?

10 A. It is hard for me to be absolutely certain about something. I

11 would have to give you a margin of 50 to 100 metres, more or less. 1993

12 was the hardest year and there were small movements but, in general,

13 generally speaking, yes.

14 Q. You have just mentioned that 1993 was the hardest year. In what

15 sense? In what way?

16 A. Because the 1st Corps had the most difficult battles to fight in

17 the defence of Sarajevo during 1993.

18 Q. Would you please now go to map number four. Can you tell me when

19 you have recognised the area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the middle of the map we see a long, narrow, black box. What

22 was there? What does that black box indicate?

23 A. I think that this could be a base for a building, something that

24 was not completed. And I think that most of the time, for the longest

25 period of time, it was under the control of the 1st Corps.

1 Q. When you say the building was not completed, do you mean by the

2 time of the war it had not been completed, construction had not been

3 completed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. And it seems from the map that the building was in

6 no-man's land, if that can be translated, in the area between the

7 confrontation lines. Is that correct?

8 A. This is what is indicated here but I think that, for the longest

9 period of time, it was under the control of the 1st Corps.

10 Q. Are the confrontation lines correctly indicated or not on that

11 map?

12 A. I am not sure. I couldn't tell you 100 per cent. Perhaps this

13 building which had just started to be constructed, maybe it should be

14 within the area under the control of the 1st Corps.

15 Q. Could I draw your attention to the confrontation lines to the left

16 of the building. If you could use your pointer, first of all, to point to

17 the confrontation lines to the left. Yes.

18 Do you have recollection -- if you bring the pointer down. Do you

19 have any recollection -- stop there. Do you have any recollection as to

20 whether that line is correctly placed or not?

21 A. I think, yes.

22 Q. Can we now go to the next map, number five. As of June 1993, do

23 the confrontation lines appear to be correct?

24 A. This should be a question mark. I don't know when this -- I

25 don't know the exact date when this building -- this facility Strojorad

1 was put under the control of the 1st Corps, and also in this area here,

2 approximately the line went through the number 36, as I am indicating

3 on the map.

4 Q. When did that happen, or was that throughout the period?

5 A. The forces of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps held this entire

6 triangle which is marked in red, but through 1992 and beginning of 1993,

7 we took control of this facility and half of this line, which is how the

8 line remains until the end.

9 Q. Does that mean that the lines appear correctly drawn as of June

10 1993 in that respect?

11 A. I think that only these two facilities, I would exclude them and

12 include them in the area of the 1st Corps.

13 Q. Would you please take a blue pen, and having regard to your

14 evidence, it seems that the light green line should be moved. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. I think so, yes.

17 Q. Could you please indicate -- draw on the map with the blue pen

18 where the light green line should be as of June 1993.

19 A. In order to continue drawing the line, I cannot see on this map

20 the Jewish cemetery, which is my main point of reference.

21 Q. Are you confident that the part you have drawn is correct, or not?

22 A. I think if I may say that I am 99 per cent certain that I did draw

23 it correctly.

24 Q. Now, you also pointed to an area to the left, that is the bottom

25 left of the map, and said that at some stage there was a change in the

1 lines at that point. Are the confrontation lines on the map correct as

2 of mid-1993, June 1993, in that area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please now go to map six. And can you advise us if the

5 confrontation lines on map six appear correct as of July 1993?

6 A. I think that these facilities were not on no-man's land. I think

7 that these facilities were under the control of the Sarajevo Romanija

8 Corps.

9 Q. And again, could you take your blue pen and on this occasion

10 indicate where the dark green line should be as of July 1993, according to

11 your recollection.

12 A. Shall I draw a line?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Are there any other changes that you would make or is that it?

16 A. I think that's it.

17 Q. Please now go to map seven, that is, sniping incident seven,

18 according to the box. Now, on this map we see a blue line around a

19 building. If you could just please answer "yes" or "no," is the building

20 within the blue circle the Loris building?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was that building on the front line? Please, again

23 answer "yes" or "no."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in that building, were there any headquarters? Please, again

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1 answer "yes" or "no."

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were there any facilities of the 1st Corps in that building?

4 A. No. Except for the soldiers on the line.

5 Q. What part of the building did they occupy?

6 A. The first quarter of the first fifth of the building had been

7 destroyed vertically. It was destroyed as a result of operations, and the

8 soldiers were located on the lowest levels of the building, as low as

9 possible, including cellars.

10 Q. As you gave your answer and referred to a portion of the building

11 which you describe said as the first quarter being destroyed, you were

12 indicating the southernmost part of the building. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there any civilians living in the building at that time, that

15 is at the time of the fighting and indeed, throughout the period from

16 September 1992 to August 1994?

17 A. I think so, yes.

18 Q. Sir, in other parts of the front line, particularly in urban

19 areas, were there civilians living in residential accommodation during

20 that same period, from September 1992 to August 1994?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. I will rephrase it.

23 I am now not asking you a question about this map but a more

24 general question. Between August -- I am sorry, between September 1992

25 and August 1994, were there civilians living within, say, 150 metres of

1 the confrontation lines on the Sarajevo side, that is the Bosnian

2 government side?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As the deputy commander of the 1st Corps up until around July 1993

5 and thereafter as the corps commander, did it concern you that there were

6 civilians living so close to the combat zone?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. An outside observer might think that it was extremely imprudent

9 and unwise to allow civilians to live so close to the confrontation line

10 because of the obvious danger to them. What would you say, if anything,

11 about that?

12 A. On several occasions, I tried to intervene, including addressing

13 the political leadership, to find a solution and to remove the civilians

14 from the vicinity of the front line. Partially in a minor percentage,

15 this succeeded, but most of the people, largest percentage, they could

16 not be moved because there was no where for them to move to. Because for

17 most of the percentage, anything that was within deep in the city was

18 either destroyed or burned. And then the people who had their houses

19 near the front line or their flats, they preferred to remain, rather than

20 go into the deep into the city to a basement and to be living in a

21 basement.

22 On several occasions they would say openly and publicly that if

23 there was need to die, they would rather die on their thresholds than

24 somewhere else. We never resigned ourselves to this fact, but objectively

25 speaking, it was a very difficult problem to resolve.

1 Q. Please now move to the next map, map number -- sniping incident

2 eight. You will notice that this is similar to an earlier map that you

3 have seen.

4 Are the confrontation lines as shown on the map correct for July

5 of 1993?

6 A. Just a minor -- including a minor remark that this line here

7 should be on the actual facility of Grdonj in the place of this

8 light green line and the dark green line, as much as it is to the south

9 of number 906, it should go to the north of the number of 906, but

10 everything else is fine.

11 Q. Would you please take the blue pen, and having regard to the

12 indications you made on the screen on the map, correct the dark green

13 line.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Did that apply for December -- I am sorry. Did that apply for

16 April of 1993 as well, that is, that change to the front lines as shown,

17 confrontation lines?

18 A. I think so, yes.

19 Q. In that case, would you now please go back to map number three and

20 make the same change.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Would you now please go to map number nine.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it is the approximate time of the break.

24 May I make the following suggestion. We see we still have a lot of maps

25 to go. You asked whether the maps could be marked prior to the appearance

1 of the witness. If the witness would be able, perhaps on maps you would

2 indicate by number, to do the markings without any further

3 instructions, and with an opportunity for both parties to observe what

4 the witness does and if the witness, of course, also, under the control

5 of the Chamber, that is either the Senior Legal Officer or the registrar

6 would be present, if that could be done during the next break and if the

7 witness could either inspect the maps you indicate or you leave it to the

8 witness to see whether - and I am now talking about the confrontation

9 lines - he would think that any adjustments should be made, and then does

10 that with the blue marking, the explanation would then follow after

11 we resume, that would be a solution which the Chamber would think that it

12 would be difficult to oppose at least. The Chamber has found no reason

13 why this cannot be done in this way, especially when the parties could

14 observe that the witness is uninstructed making the changes.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would the Defence agree with that?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell us why?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I think this is quite

19 easy to explain. Because what we have seen, Mr. President, is that in

20 order to answer the questions, if there had been some changes, it is

21 necessary for the witness to know when this took place. And these maps

22 are not fixed in terms of time, and if we can see a map, for instance,

23 when we can see a car mechanic shop facility, this situation is

24 different between August 1992 and 1993. However nicely the exercise can

25 be conceived, I don't think it can easily be done.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Are there other objections?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You mean in terms of maps? I

3 will confer.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, none, although with the

6 observation I don't know where this could be done, and the Defence really

7 needs a break, to use it as a break rather than working during the break.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes -- we always grant you the break.

9 Sometimes, perhaps, this might be different.

10 Let us just assume -- Mr. Ierace, could you indicate which maps

11 would be suitable for the witness to check during a break and could you

12 give the time reference then to the witness. We could then ask the

13 registrar to write down the numbers of the map and the dates.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes. Mr. President, I could do that. I could give

15 the -- a document from the Prosecution, or at least we could handwrite the

16 dates for the relevant map numbers. That could be given to the witness.

17 He could then take his time, and perhaps when he has finished the task, he

18 could indicate that to the court usher or the registrar, whoever is in

19 court, and then we could then reconvene.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you think it would take?

21 Because I also noticed that most of the time is used not by the marking,

22 but by the questions related to it. So if, for example, if you would

23 expect from certain maps that no changes would be needed, perhaps we

24 could then ask the witness to review these maps. But if you say, "I

25 expect changes to be made on all the maps" then, of course, that would

1 be --

2 MR. IERACE: It doesn't always go as planned or anticipated,

3 Mr. President. So perhaps I give the -- Madam Registrar the dates

4 alongside the numbers and he could move through the balance of them. I

5 would think he can do it within 20 minutes anyway.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a last question for you, Mr. Karavelic:

7 Would you be willing to give up a 20-minute break in order to do the

8 following, to go through these maps? You will then get a list with the

9 numbers on the top right-hand corner, for example, if we look at -- you

10 see the handwritten numbers on the top right-hand corner. You would be

11 provided with a date, and would you then please check the following maps

12 on whether the confrontation lines are correctly indicated on these maps

13 at the moment indicated to you for each single map?

14 Would you then, please, if there is any correction needed, make

15 that correction and, when we resume, indicate on what maps you made any

16 correction to the confrontation lines? Would you be willing to give up

17 your 20 minutes pause for that? And I am certain there would be a

18 possibility or at least to give you something -- well, at least you have

19 some water in front of you.

20 Madam Registrar, would you be willing to be here? Then it could

21 be done in the same courtroom under the control of the registry in the

22 presence of the parties, if they want to.

23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Since I

25 understand that the Chamber will not be here during the break, I think it

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1 would be necessary to tell the witness that he will continue to do this

2 without any written document. I think this should be clarified to him by

3 you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We require you to do this without receiving any

5 instructions while you are doing it, and without consulting anything. If

6 you would need to consult any document while adjusting, then please do

7 not, and tell us after the break that on a certain map you would need

8 further information in order to be sure whether you could make any

9 correction or not. Yes? Did you understand the instructions?

10 Mr. Ierace, you were on your feet.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Would it be appropriate to

12 inform the witness formally that he will shortly be given a sheet of

13 paper indicating the map number and the relevant date, at least the

14 relevant month and year.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to do what you were asked to do, you

16 will receive a piece of paper indicating the handwritten...

17 MR. IERACE: Left-hand column and the months in the English

18 language, if he is able to recognise them.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps make it such, Mr. Ierace, that you

20 make the month in Roman and the year --

21 MR. IERACE: I will do it like that, Mr. President, if that might

22 save time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If there is anything you might not understand as far

24 as the period is concerned - you will get the month and the year - please

25 tell us when we resume.

1 If there are no other observations from the parties in this

2 respect, we will adjourn until 1.00.

3 Mr. Ierace, you give the list with the numbers to the registry

4 and the Defence may inspect the piece of paper.

5 We will adjourn until 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karavelic, I was informed that you were able to

9 perform what the Chamber asked you to do. Has everything been clear to

10 you also in respect of the month and years?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: For the parties, the list, in the opinion of the

13 Chamber, should be marked for identification, so that it is clear what was

14 the basis for the instructions the witness performed.

15 Mr. Ierace, the maps have been returned to the registry, but I

16 think it would be useful to go page by page through it and see what

17 changes have been made and whether there are any additional questions in

18 respect of that.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The list will be MFI-16.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Am I correctly informed, Ms. Pilipovic, that you

21 have been present when the witness was making his changes and you would

22 confirm that no instructions have been given to the witness?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Q. Starting with map number 9 and working upwards in numbers, would

2 you please go to the first map where you have made a change. Is that map

3 indeed for incident number 9?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please point to the change.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Is that change consistent with that which you made to map number 4

8 before the break?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please go to -- I withdraw that.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we briefly go into closed

12 session?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: It will take about 10 minutes, I think.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take that it is because of protective

16 measures.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will turn into closed session.

19 [Closed session]

20 [redacted]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

14 MR. IERACE: I now return those exhibits. Thank you.

15 Q. Would you please now go to the next map on which you made any

16 change. Tell us what number it is.

17 A. Number 10.

18 Q. Would you please point to the change you made.

19 A. The change is only here because I don't know exactly the time when

20 this facility was taken.

21 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates a change made to the symbol

22 alongside the number 40.

23 Q. Please go to the next map that you made a change on. Is it the

24 case that you have moved -- I withdraw that.

25 Does the blue line that you have placed on the map replace the

1 dark green line or the light green line?

2 A. Dark green line.

3 Q. And, effectively, you have moved it further north; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please go to the next map in which you made a change.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, could we make the same markings

8 here, if you go --

9 MR. IERACE: Yes. Please place again on the ELMO map 11. Perhaps

10 the ELMO could pan back a little. Thank you.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE: Was that sufficient time, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, thank you.

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. Please point -- I think you now have map number 12. And have you

16 made a similar change to that which you made on map number 10?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Have you made any other changes on that map?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Please now go to the next map on which you made a change. Is that

21 map number 13?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And does the blue line replace the dark green line or the light

24 green line?

25 A. Dark green line.

1 Q. Effectively, you have moved the dark green line from the western

2 side of a number of buildings to the eastern side of those buildings. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know the identity of any of those buildings, in other

6 words, what purpose the buildings served before the war?

7 A. I think that precisely here within the red circle, I am not 100

8 per cent sure, but I think that this is a -- the old people's home,

9 pensioners' retirement home.

10 Q. Please now go to the next map where you made a change. And this,

11 I think, is the same map in terms of the position of the confrontation

12 lines as maps number 4 and 9, and you have made exactly the same change.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. I think so, yes.

15 Q. And the next map is map number 15. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Again, have you made the same change to it that you made on

18 earlier maps which had the same confrontation line. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please go to the next map. I am sorry, perhaps we could go back

21 to map number 15.

22 Do you know a facility before the war known as the police academy

23 or the school for the police? Have you heard of such a building?

24 A. Yes, I heard about this building. This building was located in

25 the Vraca. I think that is the building, the facility in question, yes.

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1 Q. And do you now point to a building on the map in the lower

2 right-hand corner which has alongside it the number 15?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please go to the next map. And is the change you made with the

5 blue pen to the dark green line or the light green line?

6 A. The light green line.

7 Q. Now, in that area, to your knowledge, was there any building on

8 the territory occupied by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps which you knew to be

9 a regular source of sniping fire?

10 A. Precisely here in this area where the red circle is on the map.

11 Facilities are not shown. There are several facilities there from before

12 the war.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

15 this isn't very fair to ask this kind of questions of the witness because

16 the witness had all the time not just to hear the -- to look at the map,

17 but also to look at the legend next to the map and it actually says

18 "sniper position." So that is what I think. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you respond to that.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the symbol indicated by sniper

21 position is, in fact, a rectangle, not a circle.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, should we understand this map, the red

23 circles not to refer to what is indicated on the left-hand side as sniper

24 positions?

25 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. I am sorry.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have to understand it that way?

2 MR. IERACE: The -- perhaps I shouldn't say this in front of the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps. Let me -- these questions came up

5 recently. Perhaps could you continue without that type of questions for

6 the time being and let's just first finish with the confrontation lines.

7 I mean, that is what we asked the witness to do. And then if you would

8 have any further questions in relation to what Mr. Piletta-Zanin just

9 referred to, then perhaps we should discuss this first in closed session

10 and also in the absence of the witness.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Please go to the next map on which you made a change. We are now

15 on map number 18. And have you placed a blue line on that map in the same

16 way that you did for map, I think it was number 6. Yes.

17 A. Yes. And it is indicated by the dark green line.

18 Q. In other words, the blue line replaces the dark green line. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please move on to the next page. And I wonder whether you were

22 just asked to switch on both microphones. Thank you.

23 Now, on map 19, have you altered the dark green line in the bottom

24 left-hand corner of the map?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. All right. Please go to the next one.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please ask the witness whether he made the

3 change in the right upper corner as well.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Have you also altered the dark green line on the top right-hand

6 corner, consistent with changes you have made to earlier maps which show

7 that part of Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now just in relation --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just in order

12 to gain time again, we said earlier that we will probably need about 10 to

13 15 minutes to get some answers from Mr. Ierace. I don't know how we are

14 going to get organised, but I just wanted to notify you of this.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I wanted to do this at the end of the morning

16 session. That means in six or seven minutes. I take it we received the

17 document what it is about.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. I might have missed the change on the

19 left bottom side was the -- was that the dark green line or the -- I might

20 have missed it.

21 MR. IERACE: Dark green.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. As to the change in the top right-hand corner, I think you said

25 earlier that --

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1 JUDGE ORIE: I still have a problem. Could you please ask the

2 witness if the dark green line moved north and even further than the other

3 green line? I have some difficulties in understanding front lines

4 crossing each other.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes.

6 Q. Sir, drawing your attention to the change you made in the bottom

7 left-hand corner, should there not also be a change to the confrontation

8 line, that is the forward positions for the 1st Corps?

9 A. Yes. And it goes towards the north from this currently blue line.

10 Q. Would you please draw that line in as well as a blue dotted line.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Now, in relation to the change in the top right-hand corner, I

13 think you said earlier that it was a workshop which at one stage was

14 partly occupied, or perhaps fully occupied, by the 1st Corps. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was it fully or partly occupied by the 1st Corps?

18 A. I think in totality of that -- in regards to that workshop, but I

19 am not 100 per cent sure.

20 Q. At the time -- all right, in other words, were both confrontation

21 lines almost in the same position when the facility was occupied by the

22 1st Corps?

23 A. In the same facility? You didn't have both confrontation lines in

24 the same facility.

25 Q. If it is appropriate, could you use a dotted line to indicate

1 where the forward positions of the 1st Corps were at that point?

2 A. I think that precisely this dotted blue line would indicate and be

3 in view of the light green line. And now I would do a full dotted blue

4 line which would be in place of the dark green line.

5 MR. IERACE: Just for the transcript, in fact, that is a full

6 line, not a dotted line, that the witness has just drawn in place of the

7 dark green line.

8 Q. Thank you. Would you now please go to the next map where you made

9 a change. Have you made a similar change to the previous map, for the

10 same reason, to the mechanic facility?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I think we are now on map number 20. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have you made any change to the bottom left-hand corner? We

15 cannot see it at the moment on the ELMO.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Should there be a change to the bottom left-hand corner as well,

18 the same as on map number 19, or not?

19 A. That's my mistake. I did not notice this part here. Yes, I

20 should make some changes.

21 Q. Please do those changes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties, Mr. Ierace. I don't know

23 whether you -- you are confusing the witness because, on map 19, the

24 changes made in the lower left-hand corner is in an area which does not

25 appear on map number 20.

1 MR. IERACE: Yes, you are quite right, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So I don't know whether we induce any confusion as

3 far as the witness is concerned.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes.

5 Q. Sir, I think I have misled you. Would you please look at both

6 map 19 -- you are nodding. I think you understand the confusion. Is that

7 correct? All right.

8 Would you now, please, move on to the next map in which you have

9 made a change. Is that map number 21?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And have you made the same changes on that map as you made earlier

12 on map 13?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Ierace, may I just ask one

15 question to Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I received a copy of a document which very much

17 appears to me to be a Hungarian document, at least a document in the

18 Hungarian language. We received submissions from the Defence in respect

19 of differences between the Hungarian and an English text. If you would

20 like to discuss this, the question is whether we should do it now or first

21 wait for a response from the Prosecution.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. We should do it now

23 because there are new elements, Mr. President. Every day we get a new

24 surprise.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But this is, as far as I can see, the document

1 we asked for, at least the Defence asked for, and made submissions about.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn -- we will have a pause in one

4 or two minutes.

5 Mr. Ierace, I think we cannot finish with all the maps. There

6 would not be sufficient time.

7 Therefore, I would ask the witness to return tomorrow morning at

8 9.00 in this courtroom. We have to deal with a procedural issue for a

9 couple of minutes and we have to stop at a quarter to 2.00. So would you

10 please return tomorrow, and would you not discuss with anyone nor in whole

11 nor in part, your testimony given in this court. Yes. Then you are

12 excused until tomorrow morning.

13 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness out of the

14 courtroom.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I answered "no" earlier, but I

18 should have said "yes and no." And I said "no" just to be brief. Madam

19 Usher left but I just wanted to give you three pages. I don't know to

20 whom I can hand them to, so that you can see what this is about.

21 Thank you very much indeed, Madam Registrar.

22 Mr. President and Your Honours, the reason why I am addressing you

23 is because these documents, these documents were addressed -- were

24 supposed to go to the Judges. The reason why I wanted to address you,

25 Mr. President and Your Honours, is because after the black box, the white

1 box and the gray box, we now have a wrong box. What I mean to say by this

2 is that in order to accept your invitation, we had prepared a response in

3 relation to the differences that exist between the English text and the

4 Hungarian text. And what we have written, we have ascertained a number of

5 points, and particularly for emergency, I have asked Ms. Pilipovic to call

6 me in Geneva so that -- to join me in Geneva so that we can finish this

7 writing and hand them over to you.

8 We mentioned in the writing some things starting from the text

9 that was given to us. Today for the first time, a few minutes ago, Mr.

10 Stamp handed me the actual document that we had asked for, that is, the

11 report finally signed which corresponds to the two pages that I had handed

12 over to you, and that also has a fax line dated the 2nd of May, 2002. The

13 document that had been handed to us before, Mr. President - and I had only

14 copied the first page - is a document which is not signed, but on which we

15 can see immediately by seeing the two pages together, by comparing the two

16 pages, that they are not one and the same.

17 I don't think that it is admissible if we are asking for the

18 original of a report, of an expert report, that we are not handed this

19 report, this expert report, that we are being asked to have useless

20 expenses, that we are organising number of things, making people move, do

21 trips, and that we are then suddenly told, "We have forgotten and you have

22 been working on a text which is not good." And here it is, here is the

23 original which is signed by the expert.

24 Mr. President, we cannot accept this. I don't see why we are not

25 given the text, and when we are given the text, we are given other text.

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1 This is -- I was going to say this is a farce but it is almost commedia

2 dell'arte, but we are not very far from that, Mr. President. I don't

3 really want to know the reason why we were not given these documents. I

4 have my own ideas. I suppose it could have been done differently in order

5 to give a longer delay, a longer lapse of time, so that we can be

6 organised.

7 Now, in two days, we have to organise people who speak Hungarian

8 correctly, can come and inform us on this text, unless the Prosecution

9 finally decides to withdraw this expert report, which would probably be

10 the best thing of all. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I take it, would you please respond.

12 MR. STAMP: The -- my friend has indicated that he is not

13 interested in the reason why he got an earlier text. But may I --

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber might be interested.

15 MR. STAMP: May I just explain. There was, in fact, an error.

16 The Defence were given an early rough draft of the expert report. When I

17 discovered that error had taken place, I had the original draft, which was

18 translated, delivered to the Defence, today. There is not much more than

19 that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. STAMP: All that would be required, and I would not object to

22 it, is that the Defence, if they need more time, could ask for more time

23 to have a look at this. I do apologise if there was some inconvenience,

24 but they have the actual copy that was translated in their possession now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If I look at the submission of the Defence, the

1 words "if there would be inconvenience" perhaps should be better replaced

2 by "for the inconvenience" because a lot of work was done on the other

3 text, that I would say for sure. So it is not a question whether there

4 was any inconvenience. There certainly must have been. But apart from

5 that, so the Chamber now understands that from the explanation of Mr.

6 Stamp, that it is the position of the Prosecution that there has been a

7 first version or a first draft. The Chamber is not in a position to say

8 whether it was a draft or first version. And that after that, there was a

9 second version or a report in Hungarian, and that is the second document

10 that had been submitted to be translated, and that the Defence first

11 received not the translated version but the previous version, and that the

12 submission they made is based on that document.

13 The Chamber will consider what to do under these circumstances.

14 And the first thing I will -- what the Chamber will do is to read

15 carefully what the transcript says as far as what Mr. Piletta-Zanin

16 suggested we should do. There is no formal motion at this very moment,

17 but I do understand on the basis of all the documents there was -- perhaps

18 in order to prevent any confusion, it might be wise, if the transcript

19 would not be clear enough, to perhaps write down. It must not necessarily

20 be five or six pages, but one or two pages, what the Defence would

21 consider to be the necessary consequences of what happened.

22 The Prosecution could then respond. Of course, we will try to

23 deal with it at the shortest notice, but Mr. Kovacs is not here at this

24 very moment so we couldn't ask him any additional questions. I would like

25 to not discuss this matter in detail knowing what the parties are, and

1 invite the parties to briefly indicate in a short submission what, in

2 their view, should be the consequences. And if the Prosecution would

3 respond on the shortest notice on such a submission, then we will decide

4 what to do.

5 MR. STAMP: Very well.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

7 And the first thing we will do in the morning, so that the witness will

8 not have to be brought in right away, is to deal with the documents.

9 There are still two documents in relation to Mr. Van Baal that have to be

10 decided upon and the second one are the documents in relation to

11 Mr. Philipps.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

14 the 18th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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