Page 13093
1 Friday 20 September 2002
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 1.59 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Having concluded the hearing on the motion under
7 Article 98 bis, we will now continue with a Status Conference. Before
8 starting with the Status Conference, I would like to stress that it may be
9 clear to the parties that only today the Chamber heard the oral arguments
10 on the motion, that we still have to deliberate on the decision to be
11 taken, and that therefore, what we are discussing now is just for
12 preparing for the situation, and not one of us knows at this moment
13 whether this situation ever will exist, that the motion will be wholly or
14 partially denied. So we are preparing in case of that the Defence will
15 have to present its case. I wanted to make this quite clear, and it is
16 mainly practical matters that we are dealing with.
17 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence is
19 conscious and aware of that and we thank you for it. Just simply that I
20 would like to ask you for your leave to leave as of 14.13. I have already
21 told Madam Registrar I have a plane to catch. And with your leave, I
22 would leave, and of course my colleagues will remain here and the Defence
23 will be perfectly well represented.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to work as efficiently as possible, but you
25 are excused if you have to catch a plane. I would first like to have a
Page 13094
1 list of some items the Chamber would like to raise and then, of course,
2 there would be an opportunity for the parties to raise any additional
3 necessary at that moment.
4 I first would like to go back to what happened before the summer
5 recess. We have 92 bis statements, some of them tendered. They were all
6 filed under the P Exhibit Number 3663 and then later some letters were
7 added. The Chamber would like the Prosecution especially to retender the
8 partially admitted statements, and then redact it in such a way that taken
9 out the parts not admitted, so that the admitted parts of the statements
10 are remaining and they would be retendered. And then giving the following
11 exhibit numbering, that would be, Madam Registrar, P3663C, I think we
12 start. This especially in respect of the Witness Soubirou and Rakic
13 partially admitted.
14 There is another remaining issue. Exhibits PT289 is a booklet of
15 which the Prosecution asked the Registry to return the original to the
16 witness. It has been dealt with. We have given a decision that a copy
17 would be made of that booklet and that the original would be returned to
18 the witness. As far as I understand, the original seems to not be the in
19 the hand of the Registry at this moment. I don't know whether this needs
20 any specific attention at this moment. No, if you say that it doesn't
21 need any specific attention, then I take it that the problem have been
22 solved.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, but we are looking elsewhere.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, I would like to turn into private session for
25 the next issue we have to deal with that relates to the past.
Page 13095
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Page 13097
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5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now again.
7 In your filing of the 19th of September, it appears that all the
8 documents have been disclosed to the Prosecution, so that you have
9 fulfilled -- that the Defence fulfilled its obligation fully at this very
10 moment. Of course, apart from the ongoing obligations, since there is
11 reciprocal disclosure to continue. But as it stands now, everything has
12 been disclosed to the Prosecution. The Prosecution does not agree.
13 Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Defence and the Prosecution met
15 yesterday afternoon. We informed the Defence that we have not received
16 the 16 newspaper articles. We have not received two of the six books.
17 And we also have not received a reasonably large number of documents which
18 appear in the exhibit list. We have given the Defence a list of those
19 documents, and we are told by the Defence that by this coming Monday, the
20 23rd of September, we will have a list of the newspaper articles. And in
21 due course, we will have disclosed to us the two additional books, and we
22 will receive a response in relation to the number of other documents.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution
25 and the Defence had a meeting yesterday. We were speaking of newspaper
Page 13098
1 articles. The Defence is of the position that they have already disclosed
2 them to the Prosecution. However, I don't have the documentation
3 confirming when this was disclosed, and this is why I told the Prosecution
4 that I will verify which documents have been disclosed so far. I believe
5 that these newspaper articles have been disclosed, together with the two
6 missing books that have not been found by the Prosecution yet.
7 Now, as far as the list of the documents is concerned, the
8 Prosecution gave us a list of the documents that they believe are
9 missing. And I promised my colleagues I would verify this and inform them
10 on Monday exactly when the newspaper articles and two books were
11 disclosed, as well as the list of documents that the Prosecution claims
12 they are missing. So, on Monday I will contact my colleagues with further
13 information regarding this.
14 Another matter that we touched upon is the translation of
15 exhibits. The Defence has translated some of the exhibits. If we are
16 going to touch upon these later, then I will refrain from speaking on this
17 issue.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have exhibits as the next issue on my list. I
19 would first try to finish with disclosure, as such. So I take it that
20 there is a constructive cooperation between the parties, and that the
21 still remaining could be solved in relatively short time.
22 Then we come to the exhibit list. First of all, I noticed that -
23 and I think it was done on the request of the Registry - all the
24 exhibits -- I should say, as a matter of fact, documents, because they
25 become exhibits once they are tendered and admitted, but all the documents
Page 13099
1 have been prenumbered, at least we see on the list that they have all got
2 numbers. So from now on, the list of exhibits admitted will not be in the
3 subsequent order, but according to the prenumbering that has been made on
4 the list at this very moment.
5 I understood that as far as the exhibits are concerned, there were
6 no objections by the Prosecution at this moment on the authenticity of the
7 documents. At the same time I noticed this morning that you, Mr. Ierace,
8 made an observation as far as authenticity not even be checked. What is
9 the position of the Prosecution on authenticity?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, on a number of occasions over the last
11 six months, I have made requests of the Defence, both Mr. Piletta-Zanin
12 and Madam Pilipovic, in order to ascertain the authenticity of the SRK
13 documents which have been disclosed by them to us, such as, I have
14 requested the opportunity - which I am entitled to under Rule 66 - to see
15 and examine the originals. I have also requested information as to where
16 the documents were found.
17 On each of the numerous occasions I have made that request, I have
18 been told that they would get back to me and that never happened. I was,
19 therefore, surprised to see that there was no issue as to authenticity.
20 At the meeting yesterday, I made it clear that the position of the
21 Prosecution is that we cannot acknowledge the authenticity of the
22 documents unless we have such information made available to us and an
23 opportunity to make our own enquiries. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the authenticity issue is not settled yet.
25 Ms. Pilipovic.
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Page 13101
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my colleague
2 just said, that we discussed the authenticity of documents yesterday. In
3 relation to this, I would like to tell you that I contacted my
4 investigators regarding this. From the very beginning of this trial, I
5 have informed the Trial Chamber that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was
6 disbanded after the Dayton Agreement. And I also told you that the
7 documentation of the corps could be found all over the territory of
8 Republika Srpska.
9 All of the documents that the Defence has disclosed during the
10 past 18 months to the Prosecution were initially obtained by our
11 investigators, and the originals of these documents can be found in
12 Banja Luka in the main depository. My investigators have told me that the
13 documents they found in the field were found in Nevesinje Pale, Rogatica
14 Pale, and there is other places. Therefore, the documents that are in
15 possession of the Defence and that had been disclosed to us -- by us to
16 the Prosecution, the originals of these documents are with the military
17 authorities in Banja Luka. Therefore, my colleagues can gain access to
18 all of these documents in Banja Luka.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What you are telling us is that you have no originals
20 available. You are under an obligation -- I think it is not under
21 Rule 66, but under Rule 67(C) where it says if the Defence has made a
22 request under 66(B), The Prosecution should be entitled to respect any
23 books, et cetera. That is Rule 67(C), That you may inspect the copies in
24 the hands of the Defence, but I also do understand that copies have been
25 made and have been made available to you. And for the originals, that you
Page 13102
1 should apply for access in Banja Luka. But at least you indicated where
2 the documents you copied for your own file are kept at this -- where these
3 documents are kept, and you say in Banja Luka in the general storage.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the copies of the
5 documents that were disclosed by the Defence were obtained from our
6 investigators. And I told you that the originals of these documents can
7 be found in Banja Luka in the Main Staff there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we sufficiently then discussed the
9 issue of authenticity. Of course, it is of no use to go through the
10 authenticity of all the documents at this very moment. We will see what
11 happens when some or all of these documents will be tendered into evidence
12 and then see whether there is any authenticity objection remaining.
13 Then the next issue translation.
14 Ms. Pilipovic, do I understand you well that all the documents you
15 intend to tender into evidence are translated by now?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the majority of the
17 documents have been translated. The Defence is still trying to ensure
18 that the documents that will be tendered during the Defence case are
19 translated.
20 Yesterday, I agreed in the discussion with my colleagues. I heard
21 from them that they are able to provide assistance in translating these
22 documents. Therefore, we agreed that some of the documents that the
23 Defence intends to introduce during the first weeks of our case, will be
24 delivered to our colleagues so that they can assist us in translating
25 these documents. I believe that this is what we agreed on yesterday, if I
Page 13103
1 properly understood my colleagues.
2 At any rate, we will do our best to have the documents translated,
3 those that we intend to tender during our case, and delivered to our
4 colleagues within the prescribed time of seven days before we intend to
5 tender them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us any idea at this moment,
7 80 per cent or 60 per cent or 95 per cent of the documents that you intend
8 to tender are translated? Just an approximate idea.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that we
10 have 50 per cent translated yet. However, the Defence believes that we
11 will be able to comply with the ruling of this Trial Chamber, and to
12 forward the documents seven days prior to tendering them. We have been
13 assured by the Prosecution that they will try to assist us in having these
14 documents translated.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, it is the rule not later than seven
16 days; that is a different thing than seven days before. The earlier, the
17 better. So if there are any documents at this moment that you know
18 already that you will tender, provide them already for translation so that
19 the parties have an opportunity to -- that the Prosecution has an
20 opportunity to study them already. And also keep in mind that --
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is what we arranged,
22 Your Honour, with the other side. I think that as early as Monday we will
23 be able to indicate which documents on the list that we discussed will be
24 used during the first few weeks of our case.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may have notice in the Scheduling Order
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Page 13105
1 that the Chamber is specifically concerned about timely translation. So
2 let's -- unless the Prosecution has any further submissions to make in
3 this respect, let's just for a moment forget about the detailed written
4 reports on the efforts you have made, because I -- as the Chamber sees, a
5 lot of progress has already been made.
6 But if there is any additional submission to be made, Mr. Ierace,
7 please do so.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President. I want to be crystal clear
9 on this issue of translations so that the Defence problem doesn't become
10 the Prosecution problem.
11 As I understand it, 130 of the Defence documents have been
12 translated. And we were given copies of those yesterday, and they are the
13 first 130 documents on the list which was filed yesterday. I offered to
14 assist the Defence on this basis: That we could perhaps have a language
15 assistant prepare a rough translation of the documents, not a draft
16 translation and not a formal translation, and we would be more than happy
17 to make those translations available to the Defence and the Trial Chamber.
18 We could not do them all in a short space of time, and therefore,
19 if they -- if the Defence, if it did not imperil their case, were prepared
20 to tell us which documents they will be tendering in the first three
21 weeks, perhaps one week straight away, two weeks very quickly, then we
22 would prioritize those documents and as soon as we get them, we will make
23 them available. And, of course, that assumes that a rough translation
24 will be acceptable to the -- to Your Honours. So we will do that.
25 Mr. President, there is however another issue, and that is the
Page 13106
1 books and the tapes. I have asked the Defence to indicate which
2 paragraphs of the books they wish to tender so that we don't have to
3 embark on translating six books. And they are quite thick.
4 And secondly, we have received now I think 23 videotapes. So I
5 think well in excess of 100 hours of viewing. I could be wrong on that,
6 but I think it is in excess of 100. I don't know what steps have been
7 taken by the Defence to provide a transcript of those videotapes and a
8 translation into English. And I hesitate to offer the services of the
9 Prosecution to do that for them. I am not sure that we have those
10 resources. But perhaps that could be dealt with. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please respond to that, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when it comes to
13 video material, those segments that the Defence intends to tender will be
14 taken care of by us, meaning that we will provide the transcripts for the
15 segments that we intend to tender. We have already started working on
16 this, and I have transcripts prepared already for some portion of the
17 video material. I will do my best to do this on a timely -- in a timely
18 manner for all other material.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we knew when we
20 could expect to have the parts of the books identified, that will be
21 tendered. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. Having gone through the videos, you
23 now have to also read books, as far as I understand. Did you identify
24 already the parts of the books, and could you inform the Prosecution about
25 it , because otherwise, they have to read books as well.
Page 13107
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is doing
2 its utmost in that respect, as well. We will try to inform the
3 Prosecution as soon as possible about the parts that we intend to use.
4 And this is something I informed my colleagues yesterday. I also told
5 them that if we had two more assistants, I am sure that we would be able
6 to be more efficient in this regard.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that is a matter of the
8 Registry, rather than a matter of the Prosecution. I get the feeling that
9 there is some constructive cooperation in this field as well, or fields,
10 as repeating the words of Judge Rodrigues, who used these terms quite
11 regularly. So I take it that the video will have priority, and you have
12 already identified and you will take care of that so that you could inform
13 the Prosecution about that. And the books are coming next.
14 May I ask the Prosecution to remind the Chamber if they feel that
15 the Defence is losing pace in making progress in respect of the videos and
16 the books? Because we have no firm answer at this very moment, but of
17 course it is of no use perhaps to say at this moment, it should be done in
18 ten days. Let's just see how we proceed, and if the Prosecution would
19 remind the Chamber that they think it would need more attention than it
20 gets at that very moment. Then that's about the exhibits.
21 Then I would like to turn to the witness list which has been filed
22 yesterday as far as I see. The Scheduling Order asked the Defence to list
23 the witness in different categories - such as those used by the Defence in
24 the provisional list - within each category by order of importance for the
25 Defence case. I see that the list, as it is now, does not categorise the
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Page 13109
1 witnesses in the same way as the provisional list did. And I don't know
2 whether this is the order of priority or that it still has to be done,
3 Ms. Pilipovic. Because it is -- gives me the impression that it is not
4 specifically in an order of priority for the Defence case, but I might be
5 wrong.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has done
7 its best to categorise the witnesses. They are all important to the
8 Defence. And we made the concerted effort to go through the witnesses
9 according to list and represent them as they will appear. One of the most
10 efficient ways for the Defence was that the witnesses would obviously come
11 to the court and testify.
12 One of the main problems that the Defence had was the changes of
13 passport, because this started in Republika Srpska on the 21st of July of
14 this year. So all of the witnesses had to have their passports changed,
15 although the witnesses already had their passports. So the Defence think
16 it is best to do all these witnesses, 76 of them, to put them in some kind
17 of order of importance.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. By category then, because you changed the
19 categories. It was not without reason that in the Scheduling Order that
20 the Chamber referred to the categories. Because the Chamber was of the
21 opinion was quite helpful to have them in these categories, and then of
22 course within these categories to be listed in priority order. But these
23 categories we now have to reconstruct them. Of course, for some of the
24 witnesses, it is possible to see whether they are UNMOs or not, but not
25 for all of them.
Page 13110
1 So if the original categorization could be restored and then have
2 them listed in whether it is -- whether they are more important or not
3 than other witnesses. As you know, it is like equals. Some people are
4 more equal than others. And I do understand that all of the witnesses are
5 important for the Defence, but some might be of greater importance than
6 others.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will have
8 a second look to the list of the witnesses, and we hope that we will do
9 this as soon as possible to somehow categorise them according to some
10 order the way the Trial Chamber wishes it.
11 I apologise, Your Honour. We are not going to be able to be able
12 to ascertain that the witness will follow this order absolutely as they
13 are submitted. They will be brought to the Tribunal. I think that is all
14 right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: When I ask you to categorise, that is for other
16 reasons than the appearances of the witnesses in court. That is, of
17 course, a totally different whether you want to --
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, of course.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we asked for a list of not more than 170 hours.
20 There is one witness of which is not certain whether he will testify or
21 not. But if he would testify, we would have a total of 186 hours. That
22 is more than 170. So I think --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We checked this
24 yesterday, last night, after we looked at the list again. And this has
25 also been spotted by the Defence as a problem, yes.
Page 13111
1 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would -- so that's the list in that respect
2 does not yet meet the requirements put by the Chamber.
3 Are there any comments to be made at this moment on the list of
4 the witnesses, Mr. Ierace?
5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I note that it is a
6 significantly different list from the one filed earlier. I have only seen
7 it for the first time this morning. I also note that two things, that at
8 least one of the witnesses, an international, as I understand it, was not
9 in Sarajevo in the indictment period, perhaps a few days after he left.
10 That is an issue of preliminary relevance.
11 Secondly, a number of the witnesses, according to the
12 descriptions, appear to be giving evidence which is irrelevant to the
13 issues before the Trial Chamber, either entirely, according to the
14 descriptions, or at least in the majority. And by that I mean
15 descriptions to the effect that they will give evidence about targeting of
16 civilians on the side of the confrontation line held by the Sarajevo
17 Romanija Corps.
18 Two or three times so far, the issue of tu quoque. Tu quoque has
19 appeared to arise and we have been assured by the Defence, that it would
20 not be put forward as a Defence. It is quite predictable that much time
21 will be taken up with these witnesses, based on these descriptions,
22 arguing over just that issue.
23 Mr. President, in those circumstances, might I respectfully submit
24 that there should be some initial deliberation on this issue in the
25 interests of predictably saving argument with a great many of these
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1 witnesses. In other words, it should be made perfectly clear what is and
2 is not admissible in terms of subject matter. And by that I mean, if the
3 Defence wishes to submit that it is relevant, then perhaps that can be
4 more economically done rather than in the context of individual
5 witnesses. At the outset in terms of general parameters, it may mean that
6 a large number of these witnesses either don't have relevant evidence or
7 at least their relevant evidence is very short. Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps the Chamber received -- some members of
9 the Chamber received this list yesterday. Some of them have seen it only
10 this morning. So I think we cannot discuss this matter at this very
11 moment, where it was even suggested to the Chamber to do so, we decided
12 that we will deal with it at the pre-Defence conference. But it would be
13 helpful if the parties would prepare written submissions so that we can
14 first read what the objections are and then perhaps specify for specific
15 witnesses, and then receive a response from the Defence, so that we can
16 more efficiently deal with it at the pre-Defence conference.
17 So may I invite you first, Mr. Ierace, to file submissions in that
18 respect from the Prosecution's view. I would say that, giving this order
19 today, that if you wish that you have to file written submissions, that
20 the same time you need to prepare them, they will be given to the Defence
21 to respond. Yes?
22 The witness list, we -- the Chamber has seen that -- are there any
23 other submissions to be made in respect of the witness list, Mr. Ierace?
24 MR. IERACE: Not from the Prosecution, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber observed that quite many witnesses
Page 13114
1 are seeking, or at least the Defence is seeking for quite many witnesses,
2 protective measures. I would say it is rather become a rule than the
3 exception. We have not seen any requests, but the Scheduling Order says
4 that by the 25th of September, the requests should be submitted to the
5 Chamber. And since we see that it is known already for many witnesses
6 that the reasons are given, so that we can listen to the argument and to
7 the response of the Prosecution.
8 I must say it is a quite high number. And as we sometimes
9 disencouraged the Prosecution to stick to the protective measures sought,
10 and seeking protective measures for far less -- for a number far less of
11 witnesses, the Defence is certainly aware that this Chamber is very
12 much -- is paying a lot of attention to the public character of the trial,
13 and, therefore, would like to ask the Defence also to keep in mind the
14 important aspect of the publicity of this trial. We will see whether this
15 would reduce the number of applications for protective measures.
16 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your
18 leave, the Defence has heard all your remarks and observations and will do
19 its utmost to take them into consideration. However, this situation is
20 different from the Prosecution's, and here I hesitate to tell you about my
21 personal experience, but I will perhaps do it one day, people who come
22 and -- who come from the side of vanquished, they are still today much
23 more prone to defuse emotions rather than those who come from the
24 triumphant side. Now, this is what explains it. These people are in a
25 different position and this is what we have to say, thank you.
Page 13115
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the Defence takes it
2 that -- this is partly argument already. Let's just weight and see what
3 the reasons are given for the request for protective measures, and then we
4 will then decide after having heard the response of the Prosecution.
5 If you are about to leave, I just tell you what was still on the
6 agenda. So it was the videolink, when we can expect an application for
7 the videolink, because that is what the Defence asks. And another thing
8 the Chamber would like to raise is points of agreements between the
9 parties which is an unsettled issue still already since the 16th of
10 November last year.
11 And finally, I would deal, so that you would know and if you want
12 to deal -- when you want to discuss it with Ms. Pilipovic just for one
13 minute, that it would be possible, I would like to pay attention to the
14 fact that the Chamber was not quite amused by both parties using more
15 pages or longer pages than they should have done in accordance with the
16 guidelines.
17 And finally, I would like to pay attention to the health situation
18 of the accused. So that was on my agenda, so that you know what you are
19 missing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. With
21 your leave, I shall depart. And thank you again for myself and in the
22 name of the Defence. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, so the first issue was when do
24 you intend to file a motion for videolink? When could we expect it,
25 approximately?
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1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the situation
2 stands now, the Defence believes that that will be after the 25th of
3 October. So between the 25th of October and 6th of November. We have two
4 witnesses in the Sarajevo area who expressed the wish to testify via
5 videolink.
6 Now, we have a problem with a couple more witnesses who, for
7 medical reasons, would not be able to come to the Tribunal. So we will
8 try that by the 25th of October and by 6th of November, that between these
9 two dates, the Defence witnesses will testify by videolink, all focused in
10 one location to make it easier. But I will have to say that perhaps there
11 will be some witnesses who will want to testify by videolink and that it
12 should be done from Belgrade.
13 The Defence has one witness who lives in Novi Sad, and whose
14 medical condition is currently such a state that he cannot guarantee that
15 he will be able to come to The Hague. And we have one witness who is
16 unfortunately -- who has unfortunately now become very ill, and he thinks
17 that he will not be able to travel. But this will depend on his tests.
18 But the Defence will make sure that the Defence knows by the time and that
19 we will be able to inform by the time and the location. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's about the videolink. I do understand that it
21 is mainly for medical reasons that you are seeking witnesses to testify by
22 videolink. There are also a number of witnesses under 92 bis. When do
23 you expect to have their statements to be available to the Prosecution?
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence assesses
25 that this will happen in the next month, that it will be in a month's time
Page 13119
1 that we will be able to have this checked, that an officer of the Registry
2 will be able to confirm these statements. This should happen as soon as
3 possible, of course, but generally, I think it will be in a month's time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking this because the officer has to be
5 appointed, has to travel to the locality where the witness resides. So I
6 would like to -- we will consider whether somewhere in the next month
7 would be good enough that we would urge you to even do it quicker. But we
8 will -- we will give it specific attention.
9 Next question is about expert witnesses. When do you expect that
10 you could submit the reports of the expert witnesses?
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has also
12 discussed this question. And in our assessment, it will be early
13 November.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Early November. Of course it very much depends on
15 what will be the order of calling your witnesses and expert witnesses,
16 whether this would be in due time.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will check again what exactly our ruling was for
19 the Prosecution, because I remember that we had a very specific ruling on
20 how much time the other party would need to express itself, whether it
21 would accept the expert report, and how much time there would still be
22 needed to prepare for the appearance of that expert witness in court. But
23 at least it is in the transcript now, that it's your expectation it will
24 be the beginning of November.
25 Mr. Ierace, would there be any specific responses or submissions
Page 13120
1 to be made on the issues we just dealt with, that is, protective measures,
2 videolink, 92 bis, and expert reports?
3 MR. IERACE: Just a point of clarification, Mr. President. I was
4 unsure from what my learned colleague said as to the dates for the
5 videolink testimony. Was she suggesting that the testimony would occur
6 between the 25th of October and the 6th of November? Because if that is
7 the case, I wonder whether we have enough time to decide if it is
8 appropriate.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that you would file the motion
10 between these two dates. Is that correct? Or would you like to have the
11 videolink effective in these -- this period of time?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] At that time, at that period of
13 time, Your Honour. But unfortunately, I received this information only
14 now, when I was in Sarajevo. So I was not able to do anything about it
15 earlier. One important witness for the Defence, just like all the others,
16 this witness asked for the testimony to happen between the 25th of October
17 and 6th of November, and that is why I was speaking to other witnesses who
18 will also testify via videolink. That is how I specified this time and
19 this is what I have just told the Chamber.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And I apologise, but I would just
22 like to know, what is the delay that is needed so that we would be as
23 efficient as possible to inform the parties for the videolink? Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We have two issues. First whether the Chamber allows
25 the witness to be examined by videolink; and then the second is the
Page 13121
1 technical preparation for it.
2 So the first thing that has to be done anyhow is to apply for it
3 rather soon. Then the Chamber will try to find the answer to the next
4 question: How much time it would need to prepare for the videolink to be
5 established. Because it is not just the technicalities, but also someone
6 of the Registry being present. So therefore, if you apply as soon as
7 possible for the permission to have these witnesses heard by videolink,
8 examined by videolink, we will then at the same time try to find out how
9 much time it would take to prepare.
10 The next issue is: Points of agreement between the parties. I
11 noticed that in the pre-trial -- some of the pre-trial Status Conferences,
12 that the parties seem to agree on certain issues. I am specifically
13 referring to the 16th of November of last year. And there was still a
14 long list where the parties were supposed to sign this list as being the
15 points on which the parties would agree. Finally, for this agreement on
16 few points, the list as such was not signed and was not filed.
17 Although you might wonder whether or not some of these facts were
18 facts of common knowledge. I don't know whether the parties really still
19 disagree on Sarajevo being on the east/west axis in the valley. I don't
20 think so, as a matter of fact. And a lot of other issues I think the
21 parties could easily agree upon. And perhaps the list could be a bit
22 longer.
23 For example, I wonder, having read the motion under Rule 98 bis
24 whether the -- for example, the Defence contests that witnesses of certain
25 incidents, that some people were injured during these incidents. For
Page 13122
1 example, Witness A, B, C, or D, that is Witness A was injured at a spot,
2 at a certain date. I am not talking about the hour of the day, because
3 that sometimes is in dispute. But whether -- I never heard we put to the
4 witness that you just claimed to have been hit by a bullet, but you were
5 not.
6 So a lot of issues, I think, could be easily dealt with. And I
7 also thought of confrontation lines because we have evidence from some
8 witnesses on confrontation lines. Then as an attachment to the motion
9 under Rule 98 bis, we are confronted with a map which also indicates
10 confrontation lines. And I am not saying that they are for every
11 centimetre the same, but they very much look alike I must say.
12 So therefore, and that does not even differentiate to times of the
13 conflict. But especially since I also read that a lot of the witnesses of
14 the Defence would testify on the establishment and on the situation of
15 confrontation lines, I wondered, how much disagreement is there on the
16 actual position of the confrontation lines and whether we could limit
17 ourselves to -- well, to those parts in dispute, of those parts of the
18 confrontation lines very relevant for a specific incident or those parts
19 of the confrontation lines moving during the conflict considerably rather
20 than hear another 10, 20, or 30 witnesses on where approximately the
21 confrontation lines were.
22 So these are just two suggestions on which the Chamber would like
23 to invite the parties to sit together again and to see what could be
24 reached. And if you would need any assistance to that, the Chamber is
25 quite willing to assist you in it or the Senior Legal Officer could
Page 13123
1 perhaps assist. So there might be ways to finish what remained
2 unaccomplished last year on the 16th of November.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that very briefly?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. IERACE: I would, for my part, for the Prosecution part, be
6 grateful for that assistance. We did meet to go through the propositions
7 that were provided to us by Judge Rodrigues. And it may be that at this
8 stage, more could be accomplished by us. I think that the presence of an
9 assisting party, either the Court or the Court through the Senior Legal
10 Officer, may be a positive contribution towards achieving that result.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I may just spend a few words on that again.
12 I remember that -- I have not been present but -- the mere fact of whether
13 an appointment started on the 10th of October, or the 8th or the 9th or
14 the 7th or the 6th was one of the points of disagreement at that moment.
15 As far as the Chamber is aware, this has not been a hot issue
16 during the last seven months, but it was the 6th, the 7th, the 8th, the
17 9th, or the 10th. So therefore, even if you compromise, even could say
18 that the parties agree that on or around the 8th of September, so that if
19 someone wants to establish that it is within this time limit. Because it
20 is a pity that you have to spend a lot of the time on these kind of issues
21 if they are such small differences. And perhaps you can also then see how
22 important these differences turn out to be.
23 So if the parties could sit together and see whether they could
24 achieve more than they did last year, that would be highly welcomed by the
25 Chamber.
Page 13124
1 Then, the final point I would like to raise is the page limit for
2 filings. The Chamber noticed that both parties have sought different ways
3 of achieving the same, that is, to use more pages than allowed. The
4 Defence did it by putting 400 words on a page instead of 300, which is in
5 accordance with the guidelines, and the Prosecution did it by asking for
6 more pages at the very moment when the document was filed. I don't think
7 it needs any words to say that the Chamber is not amused by the different
8 techniques used to do what the parties apparently want to do, but should
9 not do.
10 Then, the final and a more important issue, and that would be the
11 last one for the Chamber to raise, but of course the parties will have an
12 opportunity to raise any additional issue.
13 General Galic, the Chamber would like to know whether there are
14 any developments in your health situation that would need the attention of
15 the Chamber at this moment?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Sorry. There are no
17 important changes. I can just tell you that in the last month --
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt you. As you know, as before, if
19 you would rather speak about it in private session, the Chamber is - for
20 reasons of your privacy - perfectly willing to go into private session. I
21 leave it up to you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for warning me,
23 but I don't think there is anything secret about this. I think that we
24 can speak normally, because the question that we have spoken about is
25 already known.
Page 13125
1 In the last month, I have used -- since the detention
2 administration helped me, I went to have physiotherapy on several
3 occasions. There has been some progress -- at least that is what I feel.
4 But there have been also some crisis, and even on one occasion, I had even
5 asked to have surgery.
6 I hope that for the rest of the trial, together with the doctors,
7 I will do my best to follow the trial, to be at the trial, and to follow
8 the trial under normal circumstances. But if there are any considerable
9 problems, I will inform you in due course. For the time being, I feel
10 that I am able to follow the trial. Now I have my family who is visiting
11 me today, and I hope that this will also contribute to an improved mood.
12 And you know everything happens in the mind and everything begins and ends
13 with the brain. So I hope that once the trial begins, I will be refreshed
14 for the continuation of the trial.
15 Thank you very much, and thank you for your concern.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, General Galic, for informing us. It is
17 good to hear that you aware that if there is anything to be brought to the
18 attention of the Chamber, that you can do so, and the Chamber expects you
19 to do so.
20 Apart from that, I am glad to hear that at least the physiotherapy
21 gives some relief, although not the final solution, of course. And then
22 now I am urging the parties to proceed quickly, because your family is
23 waiting. Is there any other issue the parties would like to raise?
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I understand that we are sitting
25 again -- is it the 2nd of October?
Page 13126
1 JUDGE ORIE: The pre-Defence conference is scheduled for the -- I
2 think it was for the -- I should have a look at my --
3 MR. IERACE: Madam Registrar is nodding.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's better to rely upon her.
5 MR. IERACE: The Defence and I are meeting the day before, and I
6 am sure that we will both do what we can to finalise the more obvious
7 issues of fact. And perhaps once we have done that, we can indicate what
8 issues may perhaps, if we both agree, benefit by some outside assistance.
9 Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you need the assistance of the Chamber or
11 the Senior Legal Officer, you know how to apply for it. Anything to be
12 raised by the Defence, Ms. Pilipovic?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted to
14 check whether it is on the 3rd or on the 2nd? I think that the Status
15 Conference is on the 3rd and that our meeting with the Prosecution is on
16 the 2nd, if I am not mistaken.
17 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I see, the pre-Defence conference will be
18 on October 3rd at 9.00 in the morning. Yes.
19 Yes, I am asked to remind you that, of course, you should inform
20 the Victims and Witness Unit in due time for the first witnesses for which
21 you need the assistance of transferring them to The Hague, so that you are
22 well prepared for the 7th of October. Yes -- of course, not the 7th of
23 October, perhaps not the first witness but at least they need time to
24 prepare it, and that you get in touch with them in due time. Yes.
25 Okay, then this concludes the Status Conference. I Thank the
Page 13127
1 parties for the cooperation, and we will see each other again at the 3rd
2 of October.
3 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
4 at 3.05 p.m.
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