1 Monday, 28 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. I am glad
6 to see that no one was blown away during the weekend.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 As far as I have been informed, all the practical problems that
12 asked our attention last Thursday have been solved, at least. Yes, I see
13 nodding from both sides. So we could then continue to examine Witness DP
14 10. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, Madam Usher, could you please escort
15 the witness into the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP10. You hear me in a language you
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the protective measures are effective. May
21 I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have
22 given at the beginning of your testimony.
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. With the help of
25 Madam Usher, I will take the liberty of distributing this map. Could it
1 be please placed on the ELMO. In point of fact, it is the same map, the
2 same number with 1, because this is the same section of the map that we
3 saw yesterday. So it is 1766.1 because it is the same type of document.
4 And I will ask -- also ask Madam Usher to...
5 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is not switched on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Will you push the button of your
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It is Monday
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP10, if you bow you head too much to the ELMO, we
11 have no protective measures on the ELMO. We have on all the cameras but
12 not the ELMO. Apart from that, it takes away the view also from us from
13 the ELMO. Yes.
14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP10 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
18 A. Good morning to you.
19 Q. Last week you made a point or rather a cross in number " 1" in
20 the western part of this map. And I will be grateful if you do the same
21 thing now, quickly. Take the black marker and indicate with a cross and a
22 number perhaps a finer marker, please.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the witness be given the
24 other marker. Thank you very much.
25 Q. And to indicate with a cross and a number "2," "3," et cetera.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps zoom in slightly on where the marking
2 has been made.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Exactly, but will you encircle those two figures. Please make a
6 circle around them and tell us what is number "2" and what is number "3."
7 A. Number 2 is Zrak company. Number 3 is the electrical engineering
8 school. At least, that is what it was before the war.
9 Q. Witness, please tell us, what is it that was in the electric
10 engineering faculty?
11 A. A workshop making shells.
12 Q. Can you tell us how did you learn that?
13 A. I gave you names of witnesses last Friday, that is people who
14 lived in Sarajevo at the time.
15 Q. Right. Very well. But that is what we are talking about, isn't
16 it. Thank you.
17 Witness, now, I would like you to be shown another map.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which is P3728. But, Madam
19 Usher, we have made copies of the map, and unfortunately there is a
20 marking on this map, but it is self-explanatory as we shall see. It is
21 our number, 1668 and that tell us about the Prosecution exhibit that I
22 have just indicated 3728, and I would like this map, Madam Registrar,
23 would be placed on the ELMO.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, do you recognise this place which is indicated on the
3 A. I do.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is off.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So sorry. Thank you.
6 Q. Will you take the pointer and point at the stadium please.
7 A. [Indicates]
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us how tall were the walls
9 supporting the -- around the stadium?
10 A. Ten metres.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like you now to focus --
12 JUDGE ORIE: In order to follow, I did not know the word you used
13 for the -- what was supporting around the stadium. And I thought I would
14 see it in the English translation. But unfortunately, that does not
15 appear in the translation either.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I am so sorry. I
17 am talking about the staircase that is the where the seats are.
18 Q. Witness, will you please focus on point 15 that you can see on the
19 screen. Thank you. Do you see -- do you see that under the
20 diagonal -- up diagonal line right at the number 15 -- no, no, no. I am
21 talking about the upper line, yes. And then proceed to the left. Proceed
22 to the left. Proceed to the left. Now, the line, the line, Witness --
23 no, this is to the right. Thank you. Further, further. Stop. Stop.
24 And at this particular place, Witness, there is a rectangular bar,
25 rectangle which is under the point. Can you tell us what is this
2 A. This is an eight-storey building.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I make it precise for the
4 transcript that the witness has pointed at a rectangle indicating the
5 building crossed by the red diagonal which marks one of the limits of the
6 trajectory. Thank you.
7 Q. You have just told us that it as eight storeys. I believe I heard
8 you, but I am not sure if it is in the transcript. Yes. Thank you.
9 Witness, now, from what used to be MUP, will you place the pointer
10 on the other side of the triangle. No, no, no. I am talking about the
11 base of the triangle. Very well.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. Now, move to the centre of the base of the triangle.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Right. Thank you. From this point which you have indicated and
16 that is the centre of the -- the middle point of the base of the triangle.
17 According to what you know about the area, is it possible to fire at point
18 number 15 with a firearm? I am talking about direct shots. Yes or no and
20 A. It is not possible.
21 Q. Witness, will you tell us why, to your knowledge, that is not
23 A. It is not possible because the stadium is too tall and this
24 building, and where the victim was, there were always screens, busses or
25 carpets or something, so that you could never see people here nor could
1 one move there, that is, this point. This point was quite well protected.
2 You couldn't see anything.
3 Q. Witness, now I would like you to very quickly --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And can we have on the ELMO
5 photograph 3244. This is a photograph. I can give it directly to Madam
6 Registrar, with your permission.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We usually take the original and Madam Registrar
8 will --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
10 Q. The question that I will ask you with regard to the photograph you
11 will see on the screen is as follows: The building that you talked to
12 us -- whether the building that you mentioned is the one that is shown on
13 the photograph, that is the first thing; and then to check the number of
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the exhibit P3244 has been marked.
17 Is the marking of any relevance for this witness, and would the
18 Prosecution oppose against showing the nonmarked copy to the witness?
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if we could just be shown the markings
20 on 3244. The copy we have does not have those markings.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection to
23 either of those photographs being shown to the witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you want to show the marked or
25 the unmarked photograph to the witness?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is
2 better to have a pristine photograph, if possible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then do you want to tender it because then we
4 have it give it -- no. So the unmarked version is now shown to the
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You have this image to your right. Does either of these building
8 that we can see here tell us what you have just told us?
9 A. Yes. It is this building here.
10 Q. Very well. Is this building as tall as the other one that is in
11 the background facing us?
12 A. I would say it is.
13 Q. Very well. Tell us how many floors do you see? How many storeys
14 are there of the building on the left side of the photograph?
15 A. Eight.
16 Q. Will you please count them.
17 A. Eight storeys and the ground floor, so it is a 9-storey building.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This photograph can be
20 removed. And I would like now the witness to be shown another exhibit
21 which is our Exhibit 1767. It is a map of the incident number 10.
22 Mr. President, I will show this witness a colour map. I know that we
23 worked in black and white, but we know these maps very well by now, I
25 Q. Witness, do you recognise this; yes or no?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have two colours indicating the positions
3 of the lines of the adversaries on this map. The ABiH is light and the
4 ARS is dark, dark green.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For -- to all of us, the ARS
6 cannot be seen well in black and white, but it is north of the dark green.
7 Q. Insofar as the Serb positions are concerned, are these positions
8 correct, from what you know about them?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Witness, why and could you -- why to begin with, and then could
11 you please redraw them, according to what you know.
12 A. They are not because some structures, some streets are shown as
13 they were in the Serb territory and they never were and I can point at
15 Q. Witness, I would appreciate it if you could take a marker -- no,
16 you are right, please point with the pointer and then after that, mark
17 your positions.
18 A. So this is -- okay -- right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If we just, yes. So we can follow the witness when
20 pointing at certain streets.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this line here is okay up to
22 this point. And then it goes -- this is the Strojorad building, and it
23 belonged to the opposite side. And the line went down here to the corner
24 of the stadium. Our positions were here. And then it went back towards
25 the police, the MUP club, and then it went up Ozrenicka Street, here it
1 says Ozrenska. And then it followed Ozrenska Street, so the houses were
2 below the road. That is where the trenches to this intersection to
3 Moravska Street and that was the end of the line to which we can see the
4 city of Sarajevo. And here our line drops down because it goes down and
5 we cannot see Sarajevo. And we move on to Djukica Potok or Lukavica,
6 whichever way. That is how the line went. So it goes to this junction
7 towards Ozrenska and Moravska and this is the last point from which we can
8 see Sarajevo. And from here we drop because this is a hill. We go down
9 and move towards Lukavica.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we have at this point, no indication
12 at what time frame the witness is referring to.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 Could you also try to -- well, marking will be made on the map later on, I
15 take it.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right,
17 Your Honour. In order to save time and this is a portion of the answer
18 for the record, we will ask the witness to confirm. I think he used the
19 term "horizon" in his language when he expressed in B/C/S which I don't
20 see clearly indicated in the transcript. In other words, the ridge line
21 from where it was possible to see and then the part of the line from which
22 it was no longer possible to see.
23 Q. Could you please, Witness, mark once again, precisely the
24 position, the Serb positions along this line.
25 A. So, this is correct, so I don't need to correct this one. I shall
1 proceed from here. This portion here is no longer significant.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness. I should like to ask you to
3 indicate for us 622, 23, on the junction -- yes.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. The point which you have just indicated which corresponds to a
6 junction, are you sure that this point corresponds to the point where your
7 lines ended and why? Why are you sure?
8 A. I spent three years there, after all. That is the last point, as
9 I said, that was important -- that is important in this context. I mean,
10 this is the last point where we had the vision of Sarajevo. Anything
11 coming after this point would be placed from where we were not able to
12 target Sarajevo.
13 Q. Could you indicate with a red circle -- I mean, could you indicate
14 in the red circle which appears on the left side who was deployed in this
15 area at this position throughout the relevant times, I mean throughout the
16 times in respect of which you have some knowledge?
17 A. The Army of BH.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I should like to show you a
19 different photograph now.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] P3228 -- 68.
21 THE INTERPRETER: 3268, interpreter's correction.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will take the example
23 marked as -- we have a copy of this, Your Honours, if necessary.
24 THE REGISTRAR: P3268.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We will take the one
1 marked with 4324, the ERN number, and then 4325. That will be the order.
2 JUDGE ORIE: These are the marked photographs that's what you
3 wanted to show. Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
5 Q. You have a photograph on your right, Witness. Do you recognise
6 this area?
7 A. I do. This is the Krndeljeva Street junction at Grbavica.
8 Q. Witness, I should like you to ask you to indicate with a pointer
9 the hill that we see in the background, that is the central point.
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. Yes. Very well. You are now indicating the hill. Thank you.
12 This hill, under whose control was it during the conflict?
13 A. The army of the Federation.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, to your knowledge, the point
15 indicated in blue colours slightly to the right of a lamp post --
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Yes, very well. You are now indicating. This -- on which
18 territory, on whose territory was it, according to what you know?
19 A. This belonged to the federal area.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, there seem to be two circles and it is
22 unclear as to which one the witness was referring to.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing to the circle in the street
24 next to number "2" Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where I had the feeling that you
25 wanted the witness to point to the circle just above the ridge of the
1 hill. Is that correct? That one? Yes. But he was pointing at the other
2 circle when he answered your question.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't see the other circle.
4 Let me try again.
5 Q. Where is the -- this other circle --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, I see it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just to the --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, no, no. The witness
9 indicated the right circle, but we can ask him again.
10 Q. Witness, would you please place your pointer on the circle which
11 we find under the horizon, to the right.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. Yes. Leave it there, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will describe it for the
15 record. Thank you. The witness has indicated with his pointer the upper
16 circle which we found on this photograph in the sky lightly to the left in
17 relation to the lamp post.
18 Q. In response to my question in relation to this you responded this
19 territory was in the hands of the BH Army. My second question in relation
20 to this is during which period of time?
21 A. I arrived there in October 1992 and I stayed there until the end
22 of the war and the line never changed in this area.
23 Q. Very well.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to
25 be shown a different photograph. This one can be taken away. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. The witness
3 was asked to clarify and simply Mr. Piletta-Zanin restated what the
4 witness testified without putting any question to the witness without
5 seeking a clarification. And also, --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 MR. MUNDIS: And also in the Prosecution submission, he
8 mischaracterised that evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you perhaps -- I have
10 to get the right transcript on my screen. Yes. The clarification was,
11 first of all, to see whether there was any misunderstanding as far as the
12 point indicated by the witness. Could we perhaps first have the last
13 photograph again on the ELMO.
14 Witness, could you again point to the circle just right to the
15 lamp post in the -- approximately on the ridge of the hill.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that everything is clear in this
17 case all of these points, one, two and three, are located in the federal
18 area. The lines, the separation lines held by the Serbs cannot be seen
19 because of this building. So all of this area was in the hands of the
20 Federation. So it is only somewhere behind this building that the lines
21 of the VRS soldiers began.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that the whole of the hill
23 visible on this photograph was in the hands of the BiH. That is your
24 testimony, that is clear.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of course.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
2 Mr. Mundis
3 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, Mr. President, when the witness
4 referred to the building, that should be indicated as the large white
5 building towards the left centre of the photograph.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is what he pointed at.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the other one,
10 Q. Witness, on the basis of the other photograph --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we can have this one as
12 well, please. Thank you.
13 Q. Witness, would you please indicate on this photograph at the large
14 white facade that you can see on the right side of the photograph--
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. Yes. Thank you. The witness is now indicating the building with
17 the blind facade.
18 When I said the building with the blind facade, I was meaning -- I
19 meant the one which has no windows on it. This facade, witness, how far
20 does it stretch compared to the street which we can see in the centre of
21 this photograph which is therefore, parallel with respect to the building
22 in question?
23 A. This building is also 9 floors tall, approximately, and it
24 stretches westward from the south. This white side of the building is
25 facing the Serb positions on the hill located towards Vraca.
1 Q. Witness, what we need to know is how far into the street does this
2 facade stretch? In other words, what is the distance between this
3 building and the hill? How far does it go with respect to the street?
4 Are there any other buildings of this height in this area or no?
5 A. This is a very close shot. There are other buildings here as
6 well. This is a close up. If the photograph had been taken from afar,
7 you would have seen other buildings as well.
8 Q. Would you please use your pointer and indicate the -- slightly
9 more to the left please -- a point that we can see on this photograph, a
10 marking that we can see on the photograph.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. Yes. That is the one that I was referring to.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is now referring
14 to a blue colour point which indicates approximately the scene of the
16 Q. Witness, the point that you have just indicated, to your
17 knowledge, and in light of the terrain in particular the building on the
18 right side was it accessible to shots coming from the left, from the
19 Serb-held area that you indicated a moment ago?
20 A. Not far from this point here southward, in the vicinity of these
21 buildings, these houses here, there used to be a relatively tall building
22 where the command of the Federation army was located. We used to refer to
23 this place as taxi's club and this was some kind of protection, some kind
24 of shelter.
25 Q. Let me stop you, Witness, my question was a purely technical one.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 From the positions you held and which you have shown us a moment ago, was
2 it technically possible to target directly to scene of the incident that
3 you are now indicating with the pointer? Was it possible to target this
4 spot with direct shots; yes or no and why? In light, of course, of the
5 nature of the terrain in the area, and the placement of buildings in
7 A. No, it was not possible because we couldn't see the spot for this
8 building. We could see just the angle of this building. And, again, with
9 respect to Ozrenska Street, our positions were somewhat lower.
10 Q. Are you telling us, Witness, that it was not possible to see the
11 spot and was it possible to target the scene of the incident; yes or no?
12 A. No, it was not possible. Because we would have shot only at this
13 building, at this side of the building.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you spoke about a military facility
15 in the area. Can you describe for us briefly what it was?
16 A. As I have indicated, you cannot properly see the spot on this
17 photograph. But in this area here, there used to be a building before the
18 war which we referred to as taxi driver's club. The location became the
19 command of the people who held the lines -- the positions here in this
20 area in Hrasno. So this rather large building was their command. They
21 had protected themselves very well. You couldn't see the exact location
22 because of the houses around this vicinity.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Witness, I shall stop you because my learned
24 colleague seems to have an objection.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we previously objected on the grounds
1 that is we didn't have clarification with respect to what time frame. We
2 renew that objection with respect to the previous questions but also with
3 respect to this line of questioning specifically.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please take this into
5 consideration when continuing.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has
7 just indicated a location which we were ignorant of and it seems to be a
8 command. We didn't know that. If we establish that there were such
9 locations all over Sarajevo, I know that the Prosecution is opposed to
10 that, and I can simply take note of that. But the witness should indicate
11 to us, nevertheless, what period of time he was talking about.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I was clear enough.
13 Before I started my testimony about this, I indicated that I was deployed
14 ever since October 1992 until the end of the war. So I was referring to
15 the period of time between end of 1992 and 1995. That entire period of
17 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether during that entire period of
18 time this building did exist, as you called it, the driver's club. Yes.
19 During the entire period of time.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just
22 ask you, how much time was scheduled for this witness?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Two hours without breaks, I
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until now, you took two hours and ten minutes,
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Without interruptions, you
4 JUDGE ORIE: Normal interruptions are included in the time, as you
5 know, and there were no -- there were no interruptions such that would
6 cause us to change the account of time. Perhaps this is the moment to say
7 that the Chamber will be relatively strict on this. We have had some --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... use your time.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will need only a few
12 Q. Witness, do you know, and this is a general question, if in the
13 city of Sarajevo, according to your knowledge, there was a significant
14 number, yes or no, of targets, military targets? I am referring to the
15 area controlled by the BH Army.
16 A. Of course there were.
17 Q. Can you tell us once again, generally speaking, if these military
18 targets - I am referring to the command posts - were usually located on
19 higher floors or lower floors of the building, according to your
21 A. Well, mostly they were located on ground floor, that's where they
22 were safe.
23 Q. Do you know if these military targets were located in the
24 buildings that in the past had been civilian buildings?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What type of buildings would that have been, as an example?
2 A. Well I mentioned the taxi driver's club. And then at Marijn Dvor
3 they were located at the former Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the
4 Holiday Inn hotel. I believe this is enough.
5 Q. What can you tell us about residential buildings in this context?
6 A. As I have indicated, they were usually located in the basements of
7 those buildings or on the ground floor of such buildings, which were still
8 inhabited by civilians, by regular residents. So they could also become
9 victims of potential attacks.
10 Q. Thank you very much. I don't think I have already -- I have asked
11 that question but do you know if there was at Grbavica the protection
12 communication lines which enabled the civilians to move around?
13 A. Are you referring to the protection against sniper shooting? Are
14 you referring to the screens?
15 Q. Yes, yes, if you have used the word "screen," yes, I was referring
16 to that as well.
17 A. Yes, there were many such types of protection, wherever there was
18 a risk of sniper fire.
19 Q. Witness, do you know --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Are you ready to
21 cross-examine the witness, Mr. Mundis?
22 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to
24 interrupt once again. Mr. Mundis, I apologise for that. The record does
25 not indicate properly my question which is important, as most of my
1 questions. I was referring to the person by the name of Dragonov. I
2 asked if you knew what a Dragonov was and the witness said he didn't. On
3 page 29, we see that there is nothing in the transcript.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was listening to the French channel.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And at least I heard Mr. Piletta-Zanin ask what
7 whether the witness knew what a Dragonov was. And although I could not
8 hear his answer in his own language, your answer was "no"?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- It is clarified now. Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask first with the
14 assistance of the usher that the witness be shown Defence Exhibit 1767,
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
17 Q. Witness DP10, in response to a question from the Judge on
18 Wednesday, you told us that your platoon was at different locations along
19 the confrontation line during the time period that you were there, that
20 is, from October 1992 through 1995; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. In the area of Grbavica.
22 Q. And the black line that you have marked on 1767 reflects the
23 confrontation lines that your unit operated along?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would ask you to take a blue thin-lined marker. Can you tell us
1 approximately where on the line your platoon was located in October 1992.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And if you could please place the letter "O" and the numbers "92"
4 next to that dot, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. During November 1992, where was your platoon located? If you
7 could place an "N92" next to that, please.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. In December 1992, where was your platoon located?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. During 1993, did your platoon also operate along this
12 confrontation line?
13 A. From 1992 until 1995, the entire period of time. We would spend
14 15 days here, 15 here and then 15 there. We were rotated. Excuse me, my
15 company consisted of three platoons and we took turns all the time until
16 the end of the war.
17 Q. Were you able, as a result of this rotation, were you able to come
18 to an understanding of the unique facets at each point along that
19 confrontation line?
20 A. Our responsibility was always the same.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness come closer to the microphone,
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would the witness -- the microphone of
24 the witness come closer to him or the witness closer to the microphone.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our responsibility along all the
2 lines --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like some precision.
5 What does "unique facets" mean precisely. It is not quite clear, at least
6 to the Defence. It is not clear what is meant. Can it be made more
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis. Yes.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. For example, Witness DP10, during November 1992, at the spot that
11 you have marked on the map D1767, can you tell us about any trench lines,
12 fortification lines, or other unique situations concerning the front line
13 at that point during the month of November 1992?
14 A. There were four skyscrapers along the Miljacka. And then you see
15 many buildings are not shown here. Because there were 60.000 inhabitants
16 in Grbavica before the war, but not all these buildings are shown here.
17 On this map there aren't any buildings. So here there are buildings.
18 Q. I am asking you, Witness, please, specifically about the point on
19 the line that you have marked where you platoon was located in November
21 A. This is where a trench was, a fortification.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps there
23 is a problem because I believe to have understood in the Serb
24 interpretation the precise word -- the word that should have been used in
25 the Serbian was "ceta," that is, company. But if he means whether he
1 means company or whether he means something else and the witness explains
2 this perhaps he will be able to answer better. The problem has to do with
3 the Serb -- Serbian interpretation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We would check that later on. But the question
5 now was about the position where the witness was stationed in November
6 1992. He indicated the spot he marked on the map. Could you answer the
7 question in respect of that part.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] N92 is marked here. We had a trench
9 here. Is there anything else I should say?
10 MR. MUNDIS:
11 Q. DP10, how many men were in your platoon?
12 A. Fifteen.
13 Q. And you testified on Wednesday --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to resolve this
16 misunderstanding, perhaps the witness should be asked whether he was the
17 commander of a platoon or of a company, in view of his answers so far, to
18 avoid creating a misunderstanding.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Were you a platoon commander or were you a company
20 commander at that time?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked that question on Friday
22 and I said I was a platoon commander.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although it was not on Friday. That is my
24 recollection as well.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the holidays. Before the
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Witness DP10, did you remain a platoon commander from October 1992
5 through the end of 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. During that entire time period, did your platoon remain at a
8 strength of approximately 15 men?
9 A. Well, it depends. Some would leave; some would flee the war; some
10 come. So it was also more or less 15 people plus/minus. Sometimes there
11 were 15; sometimes there were 14. You know.
12 Q. You always testified on Wednesday that you didn't hold any
13 particular rank, other than being the functional title of platoon
14 commander; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. And that remained the case throughout the period from 1992 through
18 A. It was.
19 Q. And you told us a few moments ago that there were three platoons
20 in you company; is that correct?
21 A. It is, yes.
22 Q. Each of these platoons also had approximately 15 men, give or
23 take, during the time period in question?
24 A. More or less.
25 Q. Other than these three platoons, did the company that you were
1 assigned to have any other units?
2 A. With a part of infantry units, I don't know whether I get -- but I
3 was with the mechanised armoured battalion, which means I had APCs at my
4 disposal, and I ran them.
5 Q. How many APCs did you or did you as the platoon commander have
6 control over during this period?
7 A. Three. Three -- I am talking about my platoon -- three APCs.
8 That is company nine, the company had nine.
9 Q. Did these three APCs remain fully operational during the time
10 period from 1992 through 1995?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. During the time periods that your platoon was along the
13 confrontation line did you and your platoon soldiers remain in the APCs or
14 did you assume positions in buildings or trenches?
15 A. Next to the APCs, our chief role was to support infantry lines
16 pulling out the wounded, the killed, and so on and so forth.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that we go into closed
18 session for a few questions, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed session. Private session
20 and closed session is the same in this courtroom, so both of them.
21 [Private session]
13 Page 14383 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14384 – redacted – private session
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen. Please proceed,
24 Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS:
1 Q. Witness DP10, what was the approximate length along the
2 confrontation line that your platoon was responsible for at any given
4 A. 2.000 metres.
5 Q. Let me see if I understand you correctly, Witness. The 15 men in
6 your platoon were responsible for 2.000 metres along the length of the
7 confrontation line?
8 A. I said we supported the lines. We had infantry lines, that is
9 infantry soldiers who were in the trenches. And we were next to the APCs
10 and in case of the attack of the enemy units we would support then. In
11 case of fatalities, we reacted then, our wounded. So we were not strictly
12 tied to the trenches. At the invitation of our comrades from - what do
13 you call it - the lines, those who were on the lines, it was only then
14 that we would start action. We were not strictly tied to the trench on
15 the front line. And others provided the guard service.
16 Q. Witness, you testified on Wednesday about instructions from your
17 superiors not to open fire on civilians. Do you remember that?
18 A. Of course, I remember it.
19 Q. And you testified that you were given those instructions on a
20 daily basis; is that correct?
21 A. Every day.
22 Q. How would you characterise the chain of command within from your
23 brigade commander down to yourself as the platoon commander?
24 A. From my post using telephone, but it wasn't far. So I could also
25 walk there. So first I would turn to my immediate commander who was the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 company commander and then to the battalion commander and then on from
2 brigade and then on to the General Staff, that is, from the lower echelons
3 to the upper. That is how we received our orders and that is how we
4 reported about the tasks accomplished.
5 Q. Would you characterise the chain of command as one that was very
6 ridged or was there a great degree of latitude given to you as a platoon
7 commander to interpret the orders that you received?
8 A. Our orders were always - and I as a platoon commander - to be
9 strict, to take care that the soldiers do not wander around the lines or
10 do something illicit, not to fire unnecessarily, not to fire at what they
11 should not fire at. We had a very correct and very strict command. And a
12 very disciplined one.
13 Q. When you say disciplined, do I assume from that that when you gave
14 an order to your platoon that that order would be carried out?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DP10, I see you nodding but your answer would
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The previous one?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I was too early. But I saw you nodding in
19 the affirmative, which is difficult for the interpreters to translate. I
20 am not sure whether the question as a whole was already translated to you.
21 So the last question was whether Mr. Mundis can assume that when you gave
22 an order to your platoon, that the order would be carried out?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not issue any orders on my
24 own account. I always had to consult with my superiors. So that I was
25 never the one who issued such orders except in case of an attack of the
1 Bosniak side. Then, of course, I defended myself with all the means at my
3 JUDGE ORIE: The question was: When you gave an order -- whether
4 you received it from someone else is a different question, but when you
5 gave an order whether your men would carry out that order?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well I was, I commanded and they
7 were subordinated to me. They had to do it
8 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether they did.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, they did.
10 MR. MUNDIS:
11 Q. Similarly, Witness DP10, when you received an order from your
12 company commander, you carried out that order; is that correct?
13 A. Of course.
14 Q. And the company commander carried out the orders of the battalion
15 commander; is that right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And the battalion commander carried out the orders of the brigade
19 A. Yes. All the way up, that's right.
20 Q. And to take it to its logical conclusion, the brigade commander
21 followed the orders of the corps commander; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Witness, during the time period from September --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
2 the Defence objects to this line of questioning. Because it is highly
3 subtle. You asked a question because you wanted to know if the soldiers
4 of the witness's platoon obeyed his orders. And now one proceeds with the
5 same kind of questions. But this witness has no way of knowing whether a
6 colonel or who was responsible for the brigade obeyed the orders of his
7 superior or not. He can only make conjectures, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Whether he could know or not is just as hypothetical
9 as you suggest the answers of the witness are. On the other hand,
10 Mr. Mundis, of course, the Chamber would certainly be assisted if we would
11 have the source of knowledge of the witness in this respect.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your objection contains comments as well. If
13 you are objecting, and if you think you couldn't do it without commenting
14 on the answer of the witness you should suggest to the Chamber that we
15 find another solution and we will certainly follow you. But I hope you
16 will keep this in mind.
17 Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Witness DP10, during the time that you were a platoon commander
20 from September 1992 through August 1994, did you ever have an occasion to
21 report any of your platoon members for failure to follow an order?
22 A. I didn't have any such cases.
23 Q. Witness DP10, in the period from September 1992 through August of
24 1994, are you aware of any incidents where any members of your company
25 were reported or disciplined for failing to follow an order?
1 A. There were no such instances. No, no.
2 Q. DP10, in the period from September 1992 through August 1994, were
3 you aware of any instances where anyone in your battalion was disciplined
4 or reported for failing to follow an order?
5 A. I am not aware of that.
6 Q. Witness, are you aware of anyone in your brigade being disciplined
7 or reported for failing to follow an order during the period September
8 1992 through August 1994?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During the same period, that is, September 1992 through August
11 1994, are you aware of anyone in the corps being disciplined for failing
12 to follow an order?
13 A. I wasn't that well informed, believe me.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I am about to move into another line
15 of questioning and perhaps this would be a good time for a break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we will perhaps have a break.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just address you on one issue just in
18 order to give you some guidance. The objection you just made could have
19 been made also in wording such as that you would object and that you would
20 have said that it would have been proper to clarify the source of
21 knowledge of the witness in respect of the last two or three questions.
22 That would have been the proper way of doing it. It would have been
23 perfectly clear, both to the Chamber and to the Prosecution, and it gives
24 no comment on the answers. Because part of your objection was what the
25 witness knew or did not know, and that is just speculative, although
1 perhaps probable, but I think you should not comment in such a way on the
2 answers of the witness while being cross-examined by the Prosecution.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you may proceed.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, I would that the witness be
9 shown the map which has been marked D1767, please.
10 Q. Witness, I would like you, if you are able to do so, on the map
11 that is before you, to mark please the location of your brigade's
12 headquarters using a blue pen.
13 A. You cannot see it here. It is outside the map. I cannot find it
15 Q. Did you say earlier this morning that on occasion you were able to
16 walk to your brigade headquarters from the confrontation line?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Taking the confrontation line at the point where it intersects the
19 MUP building, do you see that on the map?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you please place a blue X on that location.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Can you please draw an arrow in the general direction of your
24 brigade headquarters from that blue X.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And approximately how far from the blue X was it to your brigade
3 A. 300 metres.
4 Q. Do you recall the address or the location of which building your
5 brigade headquarters was located in?
6 A. It was at the junction with Zagrebacka Street, where Bana Surbata
7 Street meets Zagrebacka Street and the location was called Aleksandrija.
8 It was a restaurant which was located in this building which was a
9 high-rise building.
10 Q. Do you see the location on map D1767 where your battalion
11 headquarters were located.
12 A. You cannot see it on this map. My battalion command was located
13 at Petrovacka Street in the middle of Bana Surbata Street as you climb
14 down from Vraca.
15 Q. Could you please draw an arrow again from the blue X in the
16 direction of your battalion headquarters.
17 A. That's the direction where the command was located. And the
18 company command was located here, whereas the battalion command was
19 located in this area.
20 Q. Okay, the --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, would it assist to use map D1766?
22 MR. MUNDIS: We can try that, Mr. President. If the witness can
23 be shown D1766.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company command was located here
25 number one. The battalion command or the headquarters was located here.
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. And you have marked that with a number "2" for the battalion
4 A. Company headquarters number one, and battalion headquarters number
5 two. So this here is the junction with Zagrebacka Street where the
6 company had orders where this used to be Petrovacka Street and this is
7 where battalion headquarters were located and this street here going down
8 is Bana Surbata.
9 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever confusion there is
10 already, another number one on the map which is next to a cross which is
11 Kranjceviceva, which is north of the river Miljacka.
12 MR. MUNDIS:
13 Q. Witness, do you see on this map where the brigade, where your
14 brigade headquarters was located?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to be
16 sure that there will be no confusion later on, a blue colour pen I think
17 would be necessary.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness -- I looked when the pen was
19 given to him. It had the appearance of blue. Is that correct? Yes.
20 Blue is used, but it might not be that clear on the ELMO scree.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Again, Witness DP10, if you see on this map before you, D1766, the
24 location where your brigade's headquarters was located, could you please
25 mark that with a circle and a number "3" using the blue pen.
1 A. You cannot see the brigade's headquarters. It was located in
3 Q. That's fine, Witness, if it is not on the map.
4 A. Here, approximately, in this area, at Lukavica.
5 Q. Could you please mark that with a circle and the number "3" using
6 the blue pen.
7 A. This is just an approximation. I would need some more space here
8 in this direction.
9 Q. That's fine, Witness. Was the brigade headquarters located in the
10 same building at Lukavica Barracks as the corps headquarters?
11 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I heard -- what I heard was "Na," is that correct?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
14 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
15 photograph marked P3244, the photo bearing the number "1A". And while
16 that is being done --
17 Q. Witness, was the brigade headquarters located at the Lukavica
18 Barracks throughout the period of September 1992 through August 1994?
19 A. Yes. Not at the barracks, but behind the barracks. But it was
20 part of the barracks, yes.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has just
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was not the testimony of the witness that it
24 was in the barracks, but just that it was Lukavica, but he corrected it
25 now. Please proceed.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Can I have a clarification, please on the exhibit
3 MR. MUNDIS: P3244.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The marked or the unmarked?
5 MR. MUNDIS: The unmarked, please. Also if Madam Registrar could
6 provide the Prosecution with P3278 -- sorry -- 3728, the large bundle of
7 maps, that would be very helpful, please.
8 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look immediately to the right of the
9 individual standing in the centre of this photograph. Do you see a
10 structure just above his stomach in that photograph? Can you please point
11 to what I am referring to with the pointer.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. That is the stadium; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. The stands of the stadium.
15 Q. And immediately above that and slightly to the left, right in
16 front of that gentleman's chest, you can see the lights of the stadium; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Witness, in the centre of that photograph, there is a small tree.
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And behind the tree what appears to be a large white building. Do
23 you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That building is the MUP building, is it not?
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. MUNDIS: That photograph can be returned to the Registrar and
3 if I can ask that the witness be shown -- excuse me -- P3268, the
4 photograph marked number "2."
5 Q. Witness, you testified earlier about this intersection. Do you
6 recall what intersection that is depicted in this photograph?
7 A. Kranjceviceva Street.
8 Q. This would be the view that you would have had from the SRK lines
9 between September 1992 and August 1994, is that correct?
10 A. This is where the defence line of the Bosniak army were located
11 and we were up there, here, in the hills. The Serb forces were deployed
12 on the hill.
13 Q. Could you see this intersection from your location, Witness?
14 A. No, we couldn't. Here in the vicinity was the headquarters of the
15 Bosniak units and the second reason -- I mean, as I said, this was the
16 first line of the Bosniak forces. And this whole street was covered with
17 screens, buses and other vehicles which completely obstructed the view
18 from our side of this junction.
19 Q. Witness, is it your testimony that you could or could not see this
20 junction from the location where your platoon was located from September
21 1992 through August 1994?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question
23 needs more precision because the witness has indicated that his platoon
24 would be rotated every two weeks, and that it was deployed along a 2.000
25 metre long line. I think that my colleague should be more precise in his
2 JUDGE ORIE: The positions are not that clear if the platoon
3 covered two kilometres of confrontation line, Mr. Mundis. Would you --
4 MR. MUNDIS: I will withdraw that question, Mr. President, and
5 move on.
6 Q. Witness, at any time between September 1992 and August 1994, did
7 you conduct any type of reconnaissance mission into the territory
8 controlled by the Federation?
9 A. No, never.
10 Q. So when you testified earlier today that there were ABiH
11 headquarters positions located in the ground floors of buildings, you did
12 not have any first-hand knowledge of that situation, did you?
13 A. As I indicated, we learned this from the people who had left
14 Sarajevo during the war, Croats and Serbs who had managed to leave the
15 town. The bridge, these people could also testify to these circumstances.
16 They were in the relevant area in 1992 and 1993, and managed to escape
17 across these lines, some of which were held by the HVO and reached our
18 area, and remained later on with our army.
19 Q. But the fact is that you personally did not see any of these
20 headquarters locations; isn't that correct?
21 A. I saw them from -- from the air, from bird's eye view. I don't
22 know how to put it.
23 Q. You saw these locations from positions controlled by the SRK
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, Mr. Ierace has a few
2 questions for the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I have access to
5 Exhibit P3728. Just while that is being done --
6 THE REGISTRAR: I have it here, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: All right. Thank you. That can be returned.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:
9 Q. Sir, you marked on a map the forward positions, as I understand
10 it, of the Sarajevo Brigade during the time that you served in that
11 brigade; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In what month in what year did you commence to serve in that
15 A. On the 6th of October, 1992.
16 Q. On the map --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like us
18 to be as precise as possible. The witness did not indicate on the map the
19 positions of the Sarajevo Brigade. What he indicated was the position
20 that he knew about concerning his battalion. He even stopped at one point
21 and he said that, beyond this point, this is not significant, this is not
22 important. I would like us to -- all to bear this in mind for all future
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the witness answered the question, I
25 take it that he understood that it related to his earlier answers. But
1 the next question was not related any more to confrontation lines, so
2 please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. On that map you indicated that the forward positions included one
5 corner of the football stadium; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Where was the -- where were the forward positions of the army of
8 the Presidency in relation to the stadium?
9 A. From the Loris building through the side stadium. There is the
10 main stadium and the auxiliary playground all the way to Mrkevic Street
11 and further on towards Vraca.
12 Q. The stadium was the subject of a number of --
13 A. The auxiliary playground, I mean.
14 Q. On the territory of the stadium, there were a number of battles;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Well, the battles were almost a daily occurrence. And there would
17 be shooting almost every day in this area.
18 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that at various times there were
19 attempts by one side or the other to control the territory of the stadium.
20 A. Yes, of course. The federal soldiers attacked our positions
21 almost on a daily basis. But they wanted to get hold of our positions.
22 Q. I suggest to you that up until August 1994, the most of the
23 stadium that was ever held by the army of the Presidency was one corner.
24 A. That one corner was held by the VRS army. The remainder of the
25 area was a kind of no-man's land. Their line, including the trenches, ran
1 across the auxiliary pitch, together with the lawn. So this was the area
2 between the Muslim soldiers and the Serb soldiers.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown Defence
4 Exhibit 1767, and could that please be placed on the ELMO so that we can
5 see the stadium.
6 Q. Witness, would you please point to the auxiliary pitch.
7 A. You can see it here. This is where the line went, and this is
8 where the pitch is located. And it went right across the pitch.
9 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness points
10 to an area on the map on which is written "athletic field" to the left of
11 the stadium.
12 Q. Sir, do you see a light green line that passes through the
13 athletic's field on the map, and perhaps you could point to it.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that that was the forward position of the
16 army of the Presidency at that point?
17 A. Yes, I fully agree with you.
18 Q. Now --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you to invite the witness to
20 mark the athletic field. Because on our copies, you can't read these
21 words so we will have difficulties in finding it at a later stage.
22 MR. IERACE:
23 Q. Would you please take a fine point blue pen and place a circle
24 around the athletics field, what you called the auxiliary pitch?
25 A. [Marks]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Thank you. I think you have drawn a square but that is okay.
2 Now, when were you first approached by anyone from the team representing
3 the accused, be it an investigator or a lawyer or anyone else who you
4 understood to be a representative of that team or member of that team?
5 A. Two days prior to my departure to The Hague.
6 Q. You had no contact before then with any member of the Defence
7 team; is that the case?
8 A. No, never. I didn't know those people.
9 Q. Are you saying that the first contact was within the last two
11 A. I think I can be precise. It was on the 10th of this month, on
12 the 10th of October.
13 Q. On the 10th of October --
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Do you have any idea how it is that your name appeared -- and I
16 will not repeat your name, I will not state it -- that your name appeared
17 on a list of witnesses to be called by the Defence, that list dating from
18 August? Do you know how that could be?
19 A. Well, I know Mr. Radovic, he was the one who contacted me, Mr.
20 Vojo Radovic.
21 Q. But no one asked you if you would be a witness in this case at any
22 stage before the 10th of October; is that correct?
23 A. Mr. Vojo Radovic contacted me and since he knew which unit I
24 belonged to, we knew each other from before and he knew that I would be in
25 a position to testify about these things. I had seen Vojo Radovic prior
1 to the 10th of October.
2 Q. When did Mr. Vojo Radovic first contact you in relation to this
4 A. Sometime in midsummer. I don't remember the date. This summer, I
6 Q. When you say "sometime in midsummer" could it have been earlier
7 than June 2002?
8 A. Well, thereabouts. June, I believe.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Are there any questions
11 arising from the cross-examination?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If the
13 Prosecution has no further questions, then we would like to ask some.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Give an opportunity to the Judges to ask
17 additional questions so that if this would --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you start. If the questions of the Judges
20 would raise any new issue, then of course an opportunity will be given to
22 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you were asked about instructions that
24 you received or orders that you received and also whether you reported to
25 the company commander, then the battalion commander, the brigade commander
1 and so on and so forth. Do you remember that?
2 A. Of course I did that.
3 Q. Right. Now, my question with regard to the instructions that you
4 received not to target civilians, is it correct that it went through the
5 same chain of command?
6 A. Yes, the same. The same from the company commander up the ladder.
7 Q. A moment ago you mentioned the name of the company commander. Am
8 I to understand that therefore, the orders not to target civilians went
9 straight up in a straight line and therefore would be traced to
10 General Galic?
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like you to be shown now a map -- no,
13 I think it is still on the screen.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The other map, please.
15 The one that we saw a while ago relating to incident number 15 with the
16 red triangle marked.
17 Mr. President, the series of questions that I will ask now arise
18 from questions asked by the Prosecution regarding the presence of MUP.
19 And I would like to have a map or rather a liner to this witness, if
20 possible. If not, we shall try to make do with something.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You want a liner -- it is not quite clear to me --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] A ruler. A ruler, Your
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have one specific with centimetres
25 on it or --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Something
2 to enable the witness to draw a straight line. Perhaps a notebook or
3 something hard enough.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can this do?
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the pointer could not do because that is
6 not straight. But if the back of the --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is off.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this will do. May I move
9 on, Mr. President?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, I want you to do the following: You identified point 15
13 on the map. And I would like you now to draw a straight line - wait,
14 wait, wait - in the direction to the triangle base, but leaving outside
15 the first building. No. No. Put this piece of cardboard down. No, no,
16 no, no.
17 I want us to see the upper part of the triangle.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. That's it. Perfect. Perfect. Now, draw a line from this
20 point -- no, wait. Wait. As close as possible to the lower left angle,
21 more down, down, further down.
22 Witness -- no, wait. No. Witness, move the ruler to point 15.
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. That's it. Now, wait to hear what I want you to do. So draw a
25 line leaving the building that we talked about outside, as close to the
1 building as possible, but without going through the building. Do you
2 understand what I mean? No, no, no. And a little bit more. Right.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Now, draw the -- no. I know that it is not --
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. There.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. I think the witness has the blue
9 pen in his hands. He should have had black pen in his hands now.
10 Mr. DP10, whenever you do on the request of the Defence you do it with the
11 black pen. The blue pen is for the Prosecution.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, draw this line, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Go on, go on. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, will you indicate
16 the MUP building, the police building on the map?
17 A. [Indicates]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness does it and
19 indicates a larger building to the right and outside of the triangle and
20 the line which he has just drawn.
21 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move on to another question.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We do not need this map any
23 more for the time being. We shall not be needing this map for the time
25 Q. You told us with regard to the brigade that its headquarters was
1 not at the same place or rather "behind in Lukavica." What did you mean
2 "behind in Lukavica"? Will you tell us where exactly?
3 A. Well, it is in point of fact is the Serb cemetery and there were
4 some warehouses behind it belonging to the former barracks. You get what
5 I mean? And that is where our headquarters was in, where the commander
6 was Veljko Stojanovic.
7 Q. Could it be confused with what one calls the Lukavica Barracks
8 where the corps command was or was it at a different place?
9 A. I don't know where the corps command was, believe me.
10 Q. Very well. But your brigade's place, were there other -- were
11 there any other units there, or your brigade alone?
12 A. Only the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you my last or my
14 last but one question rather. We talked about orders which you issued,
15 and I would like you to listen to me very carefully, Witness.
16 Is it technically possible, despite an order that you've issued,
17 for somebody to fail to carry it out or to execute it badly, without your
18 knowledge; yes or no?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And how can you exclude such a possibility, so emphatically, and
21 when I say "emphatically," I mean 100 per cent?
22 A. Because these are obedient troops, soldiers who explicitly listen
23 to the orders received from their superiors and never fail to execute
24 them. And they were told not to target civilians and they merely targeted
25 the sources of fire. And everybody complied with this.
1 Q. Very well. Good. You were asked about possible proceedings,
2 disciplinary proceedings, responsibility, and your answer was -- your
3 answer was and you were asked -- and your answer was, you answered that,
4 and when you answered you spoke generally. So my question is as follows:
5 During your military service, how many soldiers did you come to know
6 personally that you could talk about?
7 A. Well, that is a very broad question. But those men who were in
8 my -- and me, those who had to do with my company, I wouldn't say that
9 more than a hundred or so soldiers passed through that company, those who
10 had to do with my combat position.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. You said that the
16 commander of the brigade reported to Galic; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is that a first-hand knowledge or is it
19 because of the chain of command or is it because of the place in which the
20 headquarters was located?
21 A. It is only an assumption, because this was this command, platoon
22 commander, company commander, and so on and so forth. So that is an
23 assumption that I am making because that is how things should be or should
24 have been.
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Because of the chain of command?
1 A. Well, yes. That's how things were.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No more questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 [Interpretation] I would like to seek a clarification if I may
7 call it that, please. If I understood you well, you said that your unit,
8 your platoon, the platoon under your command, was behind the front line,
9 was in the rear of the front line. Is that what you said?
10 A. Yes, behind the front line.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So I have understood your
12 meaning right. And my second question is -- and it has to do with finding
13 out whether, if you were behind the front line, where could you really
14 confirm what or claim what one could see from the Serb lines, from the
15 Serb front lines? Could you really claim what one could see from the
16 front line regarding the other side of the city from where you were, if I
17 understand you right? Because after all, you were further away -- you had
18 a line of two kilometres, you moved up and down and you were asked
19 about -- you were asked these things and you said "yes, one could or
20 couldn't see from this particular place or from some other place." But
21 your position behind those lines, can you, and how can you really claim
22 that from a particular point one could see or one couldn't see a
23 particular area from the positions that you held? Could you please
24 clarify this point for me.
25 A. Well, that is not an assumption. For instance, the front line was
1 below Ozrenska Street, and I was on its other side. So the -- I was about
2 10 metres away from the trench on the front lines, that means I could see
3 everything that a man on the front line could see. And my field of vision
4 I could follow with my eyes, the same things that the man in the trench
5 could follow with his eyes. So that means I saw everything that I told
6 you about.
7 Excuse me. We were behind the front line only because we had our
8 APC because the APC could not be in the trench.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, well exactly. That is what
10 I understood. So you cannot really affirm as to the field of vision of
11 the soldiers who were in front of you because you were behind them; isn't
13 A. I was 10 metres behind them, I said that. But I had the same
14 field of vision in front of me. I could see the same things as they
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well. May I
18 first ask the assistance of Madam Registrar. I would like to show one of
19 the photographs, but I have not got the right number in my mind. That is
20 the photograph looking down on the red roofs. Yes.
21 Madam Registrar, that would be number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: P3268, bearing ERN 4325.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO, please.
24 Mr. DP10, you have told us when I did understand you correctly,
25 that you could not see the intersection shown on this photograph because
1 the whole street was covered with screens, buses and other vehicles. Is
2 that is correct, that the view was obstructed? How do you know that?
3 A. I saw it. And secondly, this position, the positions of our
4 troops this is deep -- the depth of the defence zone were some soldiers.
5 Now, as this building was here looking from where I am to the right, this
6 building and this building also provided a shield and additionally there
7 were also those screens, trams and buses. So we were to the right. And
8 this here is a street down the depth of the Muslim territory. This is way
9 back deep in their territory.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So from where you were, and
11 do you mean now the trenches or 10 metres behind the trenches that you
12 could observe that the view was taken by screens, buses, other vehicles;
13 is that correct?
14 A. From 10 metres behind. But I mean, the soldier in the trenches
15 saw [Realtime transcript read in error "it was"] the same thing that I
16 did. It was impossible. There were no civilians [Realtime transcript
17 read in error "soldiers"] at all. It was the front line. Civilians
18 couldn't move about there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't see the intersection, you couldn't see
20 the crossroads because of the obstruction put in place down there?
21 A. That's right, behind these obstacles I couldn't see anything. I
22 couldn't see any movement behind the obstacles because it was very well
24 JUDGE ORIE: There were no holes in between these shields? There
25 were no parts that were not properly protected?
1 A. They were very strict about it. Everything was protected so that
2 we couldn't see anything. I am telling you their command was there, so
3 they were very careful.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Were they ever moved, these screens or buses or would
5 they stay on the same place all the time?
6 A. Well, unless the wind did something, but they would redo it. For
7 instance, something falls down, but they put it up again so that we
8 couldn't really ever see that intersection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The view was always obstructed, as far as I
10 understand. Could perhaps the other photograph --
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: There might be a problem with the transcript. I
13 wasn't --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: One of your answers -- I am just trying to see
16 whether it is correct in the transcript. One of your answers earlier was
17 "the soldier on the trenches, it was the same thing that I did. It was
18 impossible. There were no soldiers at all. It was the front line.
19 Soldiers couldn't move about there."
20 Did you intend to say that civilians couldn't move about there? I
21 think that is what I -- yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Civilians. Civilians.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript should be corrected then in page 54,
24 line 25. I could now perhaps the -- may I just look at -- yes.
25 Witness, would you agree with me that the intersection shown on
1 this photograph was -- depicts the same intersection as we saw on the
2 previous photograph, but then from the other direction?
3 A. I think -- yes, it is this white building. The same intersection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You just told us that you could not see this
5 intersection from your position because it was shielded off by buses, et
6 cetera, et cetera. Could you tell us where we can see your position, from
7 where you could see that buses were taking the view of this intersection?
8 I mean, from where would you look at it?
9 A. From here.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is pointing at the edge of the ridge of
11 the hill just to the right-hand side of the white high-rise building in
12 the middle left of the photograph.
13 Witness, would that mean that we could see on this picture that
14 position that you held on the hill?
15 A. Here where I keep the pointer, that was the end of our positions
16 of our line. Over here where all the defence line of the Bosniak army.
17 So this here where the last point from where we could see, say, this
19 JUDGE ORIE: So there was a point from that hill from where you
20 could see that intersection from the Serbian-held positions -- position, I
21 must say, in the single.
22 A. Partly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "partly"?
24 A. Well, I am saying since our trench was right there, we could see a
25 part of it, but all these, there were screens and there were no civilians
1 moving because this was literally the front line of the Bosniak army. The
2 civilians never moved around there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean on the intersection at the bottom of the
4 photograph or at the front line in the hills, that the civilians couldn't
5 move there?
6 A. Down there, this is where the screens were. We could not see the
7 upper positions because of the houses. The area is very densely
8 populated. We couldn't see it. But whatever we were able to see from our
9 positions was actually sheltered by the screens.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Including the crossroads depicted on the bottom
11 of this photograph?
12 A. Yes, correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: I would seek your leave to ask some questions arising
17 out of two answers given in response to questions from the Bench. Those
18 answers were in effect that civilians were not in the area seen in the
19 photograph because it was the front line.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was at least an issue that came up. But
21 perhaps for the order -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any question that
22 arises from the question of the Bench that you would like to put to the
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you have finished with your
25 questions, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let us focus on this photograph for a
4 minute. When you indicated the building located on the left, this one
5 here, you also showed us where your trenches were. Did you indicate to us
6 precisely what we are able to see on the photograph or something that was
7 further away behind these buildings? That is my first question.
8 A. This photograph was taken after the war. The picture was totally
9 different during the war. The whole of this area was screened with
10 various types of protection objects. So from the venture point from where
11 we were, from where we would see the junctions the screens were just --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I would like the witness to answer -- to finish his
13 answer to that question.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You said, "so from the venture point from where we
16 were, from where we would see the junction, the screens were," and then
17 please continue.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, it was not possible for us,
19 nor was for any need for us to open fire at this junction. We couldn't
20 see anyone here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
23 Q. My question was as follows: Witness, with your pointer could you
24 indicate to us the corner of the building that you told us about, more to
25 the left -- very well. Please remain here with your pointer.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 When you said that from -- when you talked about what you could
2 see from this point, were you precise in describing this area or were your
3 trenches located further away, further behind this building?
4 A. I said that the last point -- I mean our trenches -- where our
5 trenches were coincided with the corner of this building. As I said, I
6 couldn't directly target this location. And whatever small portion was
7 visible to us, it was covered with screens. We couldn't see the area
8 because of the corner of this building.
9 Q. Thank you. You told us a moment ago that you did not have an
10 angle necessary for opening fire.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You told us also that the battles were conducted on a daily basis.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Is it possible that -- would it have been possible for the bullets
16 ricocheting from these battles to target any passing individuals here?
17 A. Yes, it is possible.
18 Q. One more question which is not a direct one, but you will tell me
19 whether I am allowed to ask it or not.
20 From your positions, Witness, from where you were, were you able
21 to see the area, whatever it is, when it was covered with fog?
22 A. No. Because of the distance, it is a long distance after all, and
23 the fog in Sarajevo is usually very thick.
24 Q. And in those circumstances, you wouldn't be able -- you were not
25 able to see anything whatsoever?
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That concludes my examination,
3 Mr. President, thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Further cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:
7 Q. Sir, you said a few minutes ago that it was not possible to fire
8 into that area, and there was no need to open fire because you could not
9 see that area because of the barricades; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. If there had not been barricades --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. I
13 object because the testimony of the witness, as you can see above in the
14 transcript, is that they could not open fire because of the building that
15 he had indicated a moment ago, and not only because of the barricades. If
16 we are talking about the barricades, then one should also include the
17 building. That was the testimony given by the witness.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building is also considered a
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, again, in your objection there is
21 a lot of comment, there is the interpretation of the answers. I could
22 point to other answers that might not concur with your interpretation of
23 what the answers were. I may remind you that I asked you before that in
24 your objections you should not use such words as to guide the witness to
25 what answer you would like him to give.
1 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. So I take it that the barricades were quite effective in reducing
4 the fire from your side of the front lines towards those areas?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. You also said that there were no civilians in that area because it
7 was effectively so close to the front line. How do you know that?
8 A. I didn't see any. I saw no civilians there.
9 Q. Were you able to distinguish between civilians and soldiers from
10 your area of the front line overlooking the area in the photograph?
11 A. All soldiers wear uniforms and moved about in the vicinity of the
12 trenches. And we had a pretty good idea as to where the trenches were.
13 Nobody moved around without those green uniforms. Nobody wore civilian
14 clothes, at least I didn't see anyone.
15 Q. And I take it that you used binoculars to assist you in detecting
16 movement by people in that area; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, so we were in a better position to distinguish between
18 civilians and soldiers.
19 Q. Sir, you say that there were no civilians -- you know there were
20 no civilians in that area because you never saw any. Is that throughout
21 the entire period that you were in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, in relation
22 to that intersection, that area of the intersection that we see in the
24 A. Believe it or not, I myself never saw a civilian throughout the
25 war. They never moved around. They were somehow protected. They never
1 ventured all the way to the forward lines. We, after all, didn't allow
2 our civilians to approach our front lines, so that was the case with the
3 other side I suppose. I never saw a civilian there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. There seems to be great
5 confusion. When you say that you never saw civilians, you are referring
6 several times to areas close to front line trenches. These questions were
7 put to you several times in respect to the intersection and the obstacles,
8 at least the obstacles that would take your view from this area.
9 When you say that you never saw civilians, would that include the
10 area of, let me say, the street, where you see these cars driving in this
11 intersection, or would it be just about the lines held by the BiH military
12 which, as far as I understand, you told us that were further up the hill?
13 If you are talking about never having seen civilians, would that answer be
14 limited to close to these front lines, or would that also be a valid
15 answer to the street, intersection, as you see it on this photograph?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At all main junctions in the city,
17 on the other bank of the Miljacka river which was even as far as 2.000
18 metres away from our lines as the crow flies, wherever it was possible --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's just concentrate on this part of the town,
20 although I know it is not far from the Miljacka river, but it still is
21 some distance. You would say, you never saw any civilians moving around
22 this intersection, this main street. Did you ever see soldiers there?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not in the trenches. It
24 was difficult to see that. Everybody was trying to hide or flee, so it
25 was very difficult to see anyone there. The military and the civilians
1 all were very careful when it came to their movement.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, but you said "I never saw
3 civilians." Let's just concentrate on this part of the road, this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was never there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, but from a distance. Of course, no one says that
7 you were there, but from where you could see the, I would say, the
8 barriers, the obstacles to your view. Did you ever see around these
9 obstacles, perhaps down here in the streets, did you ever see any military
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The soldiers probably knew their
12 ways about the area. I, for instance, never went to the portions of the
13 territory where I could be visible. I did it only once, but ended up
14 wounded. So everybody took greatest care as to their movements. I could
15 see the area for instance, over the Miljacka river, but it was very far
16 from our positions, even 3.000 miles. I could see -- 3.000 kilometres [as
17 interpreted], excuse me. I could see the vehicles pass by, for example,
18 but there was nothing we could do. There was no need to react in any way.
19 I could see, for instance, a vehicle passing between the buildings, but
20 it was very far away, probably over 3.000 metres away from where we were.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I am asking you these questions because your
22 testimony, you, several times you said "civilians would not move around
23 there," but as far as I understand your answer now is that the same would
24 be true for military. At least you didn't see any military there either;
25 is that correct? And I am talking again on this part of the photograph,
1 not 3.000 metres away, but this part of the photograph.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw a civilian there. And
3 if I may add, just one more remark, this point here, the corner of the
4 building, I said previously that this is where our defence lines ended.
5 We couldn't see this area here because -- where the line ended. I could
6 see Lukavica, but I couldn't see the town of Sarajevo. Even if the
7 barricades had not been there, I would not have been able to see this
8 area, as far as Serb soldiers are concerned.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Sir, perhaps we should just clarify exactly what your
12 responsibility was so we can better understand what you saw and what you
13 didn't. You have told us that you were in the 2nd Armoured Battalion and
14 that you had three APCs attached to your platoon; is that correct?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that my
17 intervention is necessary at this point. There is a gap in the
18 transcript, page 74, line 22. I will tell you what I heard the witness
19 say, but I don't want to be accused of leading in any way, as if you trust
20 me -- very well, very well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... you say. I have
22 difficulties because I am on 65 at this very moment. You said 74 or is
23 that a translation problem? I am just trying to identify the spot. Would
24 you please say --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I indicated
1 page 64, that is the proceeding page. The line 14 maybe which is on the
2 previous page. Let me just check. Yes. Line 22, Mr. President, on page
3 64, not 74.
4 JUDGE ORIE: What is missing?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your permission,
6 Mr. President, I will tell you. I thought I heard the witness say that
7 from there - at least that is what I heard - the terrain climbs down --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... to where the big
9 white building crosses the line of the ridge.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
12 whether this concludes my intervention --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... was missing. If
14 there was anything else missing, then please tell us.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. It is just that the
16 witness had used the word "padala" in order to indicate that the terrain
17 declined, which means that the lines held by the Serbian army --
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... intervention by
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you repeat that part of your answer.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corner of the white building,
21 this is where the line ended. The line held by the Serb military on the
22 horizon here. That is the point from where it was possible to see
23 Sarajevo. From that area, the terrain drops leading to the Djukica creek
24 and Lukavica. But the whole area was screened off. There were barricades
25 all around the area so it was not possible to engage in any action there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.
2 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. In relation to the photograph in front of you, we see many roofs
5 from the hill on the background. Between September 1992 and August 1994,
6 the buildings in the vicinity of the front line, that is that part of the
7 front line, did not have roofs, did they, because of the fighting?
8 A. There has been some reconstruction since. This is a new
9 photograph. The roofs were probably down or damaged. This is a peacetime
11 Q. Along the front line whole buildings were completely destroyed
12 back to ground level, weren't they? Not every building, but some of them?
13 A. That is not correct. All of the houses were still standing except
14 for the fact that the windows were broken or that they had some different
15 type of damage.
16 Q. Sir, it was more than broken windows wasn't it? It was whole
17 roofs destroyed in some cases, wasn't it?
18 A. Private houses, family houses, the ones located up the hill.
19 Maybe if something had fallen on top of them. I don't know. But I think
20 the majority of those houses were still inhabitable. Most of them were
21 far enough from the separation line. As I say, the Bosniak forces were
22 deployed along the ridge of the hill and the area here was safe.
23 Q. Now, in relation to your responsibility, you were part of a
24 mechanised battalion or an armed battalion, mechanised brigade, and in
25 particular you had three APCs, correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The APCs, I take it, had a weapon on them, is that so?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this does not
4 result -- arise -- does not arise from the questions asked by the Bench.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the same question came into my mind.
6 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, there has been extensive
7 questioning of this witness since cross-examination concluded on the topic
8 of whether there were civilians in the area of incident number 10 and what
9 this witness saw of both civilians and military and it necessitates a
10 clearer understanding of what his responsibilities were in terms of what
11 he would have been likely to see. If the focus of his responsibilities
12 was the APCs, then that -- one would have a very difficult expectation
13 then if, for instance, his responsibility was that of a sniper.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. Are there any other
16 questions, Mr. Ierace?
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, there are.
18 Q. Sir, there were a number of high-rise apartment buildings in the
19 area and some of those can be seen on the photograph in front of you,
20 can't they?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you not allow for the possibility that civilians lived in
23 those apartment buildings?
24 A. They lived in those located on the side opposite from our side on
25 the western bank of the Miljacka river, on the side which was not visible
1 to us. They lived on the safe side of the buildings, that is, in those
2 rooms which could not be reached by any bullet. They did not occupy those
3 rooms which were facing the Serb positions.
4 Q. That would have been far too dangerous for them, wouldn't it?
5 A. That's what they did. I mean, our people did the same.
6 Q. Now, the barricades that you have described to us in recent
7 answers offered protection to pedestrians who would cross the road which
8 led up towards the hill, correct?
9 A. Towards the hill and away from the hill.
10 Q. And given the presence of civilian-type buildings in the area, you
11 would not be surprised if civilians used the protection of the barricades
12 in order to safely cross that street, correct?
13 A. That's what the protection was for. They used it for the purposes
14 of safe passage from one part of the city to another.
15 Q. And you would surely expect that any snipers on your side of the
16 confrontation line would exploit any breaks in those barricades in order
17 to hit soldiers --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What question asked by the
21 Bench contained explicitly a reference to the presence of snipers in the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- No. Snipers was not mentioned, but
24 the -- whether there were any breaks in these barricades was a question
25 that came up newly, so the objection is denied. But, Mr. Ierace, could
1 you please then try to limit it mainly to that aspect and not start a new
2 line of questioning on the issue.
3 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President, yes.
4 Q. I will repeat the question: You would surely expect that any
5 snipers on your side of the confrontation line would exploit any breaks in
6 those barricades in order to hit soldiers --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. I
8 am very sorry but I don't think that this witness was -- has ever been
9 asked about snipers. Perhaps we should start by asking him if there were
10 any snipers and then follow on. I think this question is just an ambush.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is cross-examination, this is
12 not examination-in-chief. That is under different rules as you might
13 know, therefore, the objection is denied. And, again, may I ask you to
14 not to use your objections in order to give comments or give additional
15 information that might be of influence to the witness.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. What is your answer?
19 A. I believe I was clear and have already responded to this question.
20 My unit was a motorised armour unit which did not have any snipers or
21 mortars at all. So the issue didn't -- does not apply to us at all.
22 Q. In other words, you can't inform us, given your responsibilities,
23 as to what the situation was with snipers or other individuals who may
24 have had the job of exploiting any breaks in those barricades; is that
1 A. There were no snipers in my unit. I cannot give you any comment
2 to that effect.
3 Q. Would you please listen to the question. I think you have
4 explained to us that because of your particular responsibilities, that's
5 as far as you can go in assisting this Court with the exploitation in
6 breaks in the barricades; is that correct, sir?
7 A. Any breaks in those barricades, and this applies to both sides.
8 Whenever we discovered a gap in our lines or any such problem in our
9 lines, we would try to repair it overnight. So all these breaks were
10 repaired right away. There was a large concentration of people living in
11 the area, after all. So there were no breaks, so to speak. There were
12 half a million people living in Sarajevo, in the area. They had to put up
13 all those barricades and be careful about them.
14 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I have to apologise to the parties, but I had
18 forgotten one question when I asked the witness -- when I examined the
19 witness before. I have got one question for you.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE ORIE: You talked about the MUP building. Would that be the
22 same for you as police academy or is the police academy a different
23 building from the MUP building?
24 A. Before the war, the building was a police academy. There never
25 was a police station located in this building. It was a school. But
1 during the war, it was in this school building that our platoon was
2 located. It is from there that we defended ourselves. It was not a
3 police station.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do understand. But where other people refer to
5 police academy and where you talk about the MUP building, you would -- it
6 would be your position that that is the same building?
7 A. Yes, of course. That's the only building that can be connected
8 with MUP in the area. There was no other such building.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your answer. We will
10 adjourn, but your testimony, Mr. DP10, has been concluded by now. So
11 after the break, we will not see you again. I would like to thank you
12 very much for coming the long way from where you live to The Hague. And I
13 would also like to thank you for giving answers to the questions of both
14 the parties and of the Judges, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours. It
16 was -- it has been a pleasant experience for me.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, is my understanding correct that
23 DP9 will be the next to testify? Yes, I see from both parties they do
24 agree that that will be the next witness. A decision on the requested
25 protective measures have not yet been taken. I can tell the parties that
1 an overall decision for all protective measures sought is being prepared.
2 It is not always easy because we -- a few things have been mixed up and
3 things have been changed meanwhile, as well. I am specifically referring
4 to the safe conduct. So we first have to take a decision on the
5 protective measures sought for Witness DP9, and I would like to turn into
6 closed session to see whether there are any additional observations to be
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we do that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are not yet in closed session.
10 MR. IERACE: Just two quick matters. Last Wednesday you asked me
11 if the -- when the Prosecution would be filing a response to the Defence
12 application for a certificate of appeal --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I saw something on my desk this morning. Is that a
14 different thing?
15 MR. IERACE: It is a different thing, Mr. President. And last
16 Wednesday I said that we would do it by this afternoon. There has been a
17 holdup with the translation, and it may not be until tomorrow afternoon
18 that we file our response.
19 Secondly, by way of explanation, this morning I left the Trial
20 Chamber during the sitting and returned during the sitting. That is
21 because we heard significant evidence for the first time of which we were
22 not forewarned and we are seeking to adapt ourselves in the most
23 economical way to research and then respond to that evidence. And for
24 that reason, it may well be that with future witnesses, with your leave,
25 Mr. President, I will absent myself and return and indeed seek leave to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 ask questions in cross-examination, as well as other counsel. And that
2 being said, given that we are about to hear another witness, I propose not
3 to be present during the examination-in-chief, or at least part of it.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, as far as the next witness is
6 concerned, the last line of the summary, of the extended summary was he
7 will speak about facts important to 4 scheduled sniping incident and then
8 two numbers follow. Has this been -- the Chamber has asked the Defence to
9 be as precise as possible if these facts are part of the examination. Has
10 there been any further explanation by the Defence to the Prosecution in
11 this respect?
12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We received a letter dated the
13 21st of October 2002 which gave us some information. I can only assume
14 that that is the only additional information which pertains to the oral
15 judgment, the oral decision of the Trial Chamber some eight days ago, ten
16 days ago.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, I would like to turn into closed session.
18 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you are.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 [Closed session]
13 Page 14434 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 14435 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 14436 – redacted – closed session
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness
2 into the courtroom. At the same time, Madam Registrar, may I ask you to
3 deal with the documents tendered during the previous testimony.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand? Can
6 you hear me in a language you understand?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite you just to sit down for a second since
9 we have to deal with a small procedural issue and then we will start your
10 examination as a witness. Yes. Please be seated for one second.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1765 under seal, pseudonym sheet; Exhibit
14 D1766, map marked by witness Exhibit D1766.1, map marked by witness
15 Exhibit D1767, map marked by witness Exhibit D1768, map marked by witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections expressed by the
17 Prosecution the documents are admitted into evidence, D1675 under seal.
18 THE REGISTRAR: D1765 under seal.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for the mistake.
20 Mr. DP9, usually it takes one or two minutes more before the
21 witness enters the courtroom, that's the reason why we are not yet
22 completely finished with what we had to do.
23 May I invite you to stand, to stand up. The Rules of Procedure
24 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to
1 make that solemn declaration and the text has just been handed out to you
2 by the usher.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP9, we will not use your own name since
8 protective measures have been granted in respect of you. So, therefore,
9 we will address you as Mr. DP9 or Witness DP9.
10 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. You will first be examined by
11 counsel for the Defence.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS DP9
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP9, good afternoon.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I will show you a document
19 and ask you to look at it and to tell us whether the information on this
20 sheet of paper is correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before you continue, may I also ask
22 the Registrar 1768 is that not a number that has been just attributed to a
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that this one
1 becomes --
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was wrong. 1769, my apologies.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. DP9, is the information in the sheet of paper accurate?
6 A. Yes, it is accurate.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to obtain
9 some more precise information about Witness DP9, I would like to ask that
10 we go into a closed session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed or private session.
12 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. DP9 --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are in open session. Please proceed.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
15 Q. Mr. DP9, you told us that in 1992 in the beginning you said where
16 you lived until the first unrest. Can you tell us according to you, when
17 was that in your neighbourhood?
18 A. In my neighbourhood, the unrest started and what happened was that
19 in a part barricades sprung up in the shape of dustbins. So that in early
20 March, and then because of certain information I had and the advice of my
21 neighbours, I moved to another territory.
22 Q. Mr. DP9, in 1992, in September, can you tell us where were you
23 then, in which territory?
24 A. In the month of September, I was in the territory of Bijelo Polje,
25 Lukavica, and that is the area bordering on Dobrinja I.
1 Q. Can you tell us if in September 1992 you were in that area? Since
2 when were you in that area?
3 A. I was in that area from the month of April 1992.
4 Q. Can you explain to us what was the reason? You've indicated --
5 you mentioned different locations. What was the reason why you were in
6 that area since April 1992?
7 A. In April 1992 in that area when the news spread of the Yugoslav
8 People's Army had to leave the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that
9 area, the Territorial Defence was established and I was its member. And
10 at certain locations it stood guard, which were set up in the direction of
11 the city of Sarajevo.
12 Q. Mr. DP9, you tell us this: The part of the city that you lived
13 in, and you told us earlier on that you held positions there, which is the
14 part of the city that you are talking about?
15 A. It is Dobrinja, that is what it is called. The locality of
17 Q. Witness DP9, you said that you became a member of the Territorial
18 Defence. Was that some kind of formation and how many people did it
19 consist of, this Territorial Defence?
20 A. At the beginning, the Territorial Defence consisted of a number of
21 reservists, people who were a member of the reserve police force.
22 However, later on when it became clear that the situation would get even
23 more dangerous, it became better organised. Military-aged men or partly
24 able-bodied men, people fit or partly fit for military service were
25 supposed to report there so that adequate protection can be organised.
1 Q. When you say that the adequate protection had to be organised, who
2 do you have in mind? Why was it necessary to organise protection?
3 A. There was organised activity coming from the other part of the
4 town where what we at the time called Green Berets were. There was
5 already a lot of unrest in the city and people who were still able to
6 leave the city because a number of people could no longer leave the town
7 told us about these incidents. I personally, while I was still living in
8 my neighbourhood before I left, I also noticed some people including the
9 people I knew who had been assembled and partly armed.
10 Q. Witness DP9, when did you first see these groups of people that
11 you said were partly armed and in which part of the town this was, if you
12 saw any?
13 A. In late February in the neighbourhood where I lived, there
14 appeared a number of patrols of the reserve police force wearing their
15 typical uniforms, the uniforms of the reserve police force which were blue
16 in colour, who were also accompanied by people not wearing uniforms. And
17 they together conducted patrols. What seems strange to me was the fact
18 that the people, the members of these patrols were civilians and all of
19 them Muslim.
20 Q. Were these people armed?
21 A. The leader of this patrol who was a reserve police officer had an
22 automatic rifle. And these other people initially, during the first
23 several days did not carry weapons, according to what I was able to
24 observe. However, later on when I took a closer look, I realised that
25 they had pistols, the pistols that they did not bother to hide, and were
1 displaying them visibly. They were usually stuck in their belt.
2 Q. Mr. DP9, in September 1992, were you personally armed?
3 A. I was armed in September 1992, yes.
4 Q. When did you first get a weapon? At that time or before that
5 period of time?
6 A. I have been given a weapon by the Territorial Defence as early as
7 the month of April of that year. However, it was commonly owned. I mean
8 that those people who returned from their tour of duty would leave the
9 weapons to the following shift.
10 Q. So it was in April 1992 that you were first issued a weapon. From
11 that period of time on, that is after April, were there any operations
12 conducted? Was anything going on in the area where you lived and were you
13 in a position to use your weapon?
14 A. Well, we started using our weapons in late April, early May. This
15 was a long time ago, so I am speaking to the best of my recollection.
16 There was a formation consisting of 10 to 15 people. And they attempted
17 at one point in time to take control of the Veljine church, from the
18 direction of Dobrinja, the church which was located in the area of
20 Q. Do you know when in the month of April this was? In mid-April or
21 late April?
22 A. I said that it was either in late April or early May. I cannot
23 remember the exact date. It was a long time ago.
24 Q. You said that there was a group of people who attempted to take
25 possession of this locality. Do you know which group it was? Who were
1 these people?
2 A. This group --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has given the Defence
5 a little bit of leeway here but we are objecting on the grounds of
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have discussed the issue before,
8 but please respond.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but from what we
10 understand, we also adopted the position, as far as the position of the
11 Prosecution is concerned, this period of time is also relevant for the
12 purposes of establishing the existence of certain number of locations
13 which might be relevant, in view of the fact that the witness has the
14 knowledge of the things which will -- it will be demonstrated will be
15 important for the purposes of establishing the truth.
16 As far as I understand, my learned colleague is asking about the
17 relevancy of the question in view of the period of time. I think we
18 addressed the issue during the Prosecution case as well, that is the issue
19 of how relevant the period preceding September 1992 is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just to clarify the Prosecution's
22 position with respect to this issue, the Prosecution has always taken the
23 view that we are required under the Statute to establish the existence of
24 an armed conflict, and that was the specific reason why evidence was
25 adduced to demonstrate that an armed conflict existed prior to the
1 commencement of the indictment period. But the Prosecution's view is that
2 we have established that and I don't know if that is still at issue as far
3 as the Defence is concerned, but that was the reason we adduced evidence
4 with respect to pre-indictment period.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Am I right in understanding that one of the few
6 issues on which the parties had agreed was that during the whole
7 indictment period there was an armed conflict in and around Sarajevo?
8 Well, I have to check it. Does the Defence at this moment contest that
9 there was an armed conflict?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence expressed
11 its position to the fact that there was an armed conflict, however, in
12 view of the indictment against General Galic which indictment specifies
13 that the units of the Yugoslav People's Army and other units of the 4th
14 Corps took position of important strategic positions in and around
15 Sarajevo after which the town was besieged. The witness -- the Defence is
16 merely trying to establish that it was not a matter of taking possession
17 of important strategic points that simply a division occurred along the
18 ethnic lines in certain parts of the town, and that in those areas, as a
19 result of that, lines of separation were established at one point in time,
20 which lines of separation existed continued to exist throughout the
21 conflict and did not significantly change. However, there were portions
22 of this line which were altered to a certain effect. With this witness we
23 are trying to show that it was not a matter of taking important strategic
24 positions, but that simply lines of separation was established at one
25 point in time between these two major ethnic entities in the area of the
1 town of Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it in dispute that lines of separation were
3 established at one point in time?
4 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have dealt with the issue before,
6 and I have suggested in order not to shortcut in whatever way the rights
7 of the Defence, I suggested that you could lead the witness through these
8 kind of things very easily and that you would not expect the Prosecution
9 to object. But to hear from every witness to come whether he saw the
10 other party having rifles or automatic rifles or pistols and whether they
11 were not visible or visible, where this finally seems to have not a
12 specific meaning for the case, might take a lot of time and might not be
13 of great assistance to the Chamber.
14 So therefore, my suggestion would be that you very quickly move to
15 what is the relevant part and unless the situation in that part of town
16 was considerably different from what we find somewhere else, and that is
17 that both parties came together, perhaps one party saying that the others
18 were showing that they were organising themselves and were trying to get
19 weapons, and where the other party said that it was just the opposite
20 party that was coming together, was organising itself and getting some
21 weapons. I mean, that is a picture we have heard with not great variance.
22 I think now some 30 40, 50 times. So I think that we could go through
23 that quite quickly, unless there is a specific thing that needs specific
24 attention, and if you want to pay specific attention to front lines, move
25 to that subject as soon as possible then. Or if you would say in one part
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of town people were having rifles but everyone was having this private
2 mortar, that would be different and you can pay specific attention to
3 that, but most of what we heard during the last 15 minutes is, if not
4 identical, then at least very much similar to what we heard already many
5 many times. So I think it would be efficient to deal with it in a
6 different way and perhaps to follow the suggestion made by the Chamber
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but the witness
10 whom the Defence is hearing for the first time today, together with the
11 Chamber and the Prosecution, is the first witness who actually spent some
12 time on those lines and in this particular neighbourhood. So we think it
13 is necessary and useful for us to about the situation during that period
14 of time from this witness concerning this particular area. In particular,
15 in view of the fact that the witness has just indicated that there had
16 been fighting around the church which locality is also relevant for the
17 Defence. My questions -- my question concerned the fighting in the area
18 of the church.
19 Q. Witness, you indicated that in September 1992 --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is specific. If you want to cover a specific
21 area, no problem, but a lot was really similar to what we heard before.
22 And please proceed.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 Q. Witness, DP9, you told us that in September you were present at a
25 certain line. In what capacity was that?
1 A. I was present at those lines in my capacity of a VRS army soldier.
2 Q. As a VRS army soldier, can you tell us what unit you belonged to?
3 A. I was a member of an infantry unit. And as far as the military
4 structure is concerned, I was a member of a company which was part of the
5 1st Infantry Battalion.
6 Q. Witness DP9, let me go back a little. You told us that the first
7 operations occurred in the month of April in this area involving the
8 Veljine church. Was there any open fighting, open conflict in the area at
9 the time and what were the consequences of both in terms of troops and
10 potential damage and destruction?
11 A. They arrived from the area of Dobrinja, the former football
12 stadium which is now the bus station belonging to Republika Srpska.
13 Infantry fire was opened by the guards and we were alerted and told that
14 even senior members of the unit should engage in fighting. But after a
15 while, they withdrew and I don't know because it was already dark. There
16 was no electricity on that particular day although there had been
17 electricity in the previous days. So the visibility was very low and I
18 don't know exactly how it happened. And the area itself is rather green
19 and there were certain -- there were also barricades there. So I am not
20 quite sure about the casualties. But as far as our side is concerned, we
21 did not suffer any casualties.
22 Q. Witness DP9, do you have any personal knowledge whether the church
23 which was the subject of this fighting was damaged during the armed
24 conflict in the area?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution renews its objection
2 on the grounds of relevance. We're discussing an incident that happened
3 in April of 1992 which is clearly pre-indictment period.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am trying to
6 elicit from the witness whether he has any personal knowledge about the
7 damage done to the church, to the building. I am not talking specifically
8 about the month of April, but generally speaking, I am referring to the
9 period of the armed conflict. I just want to know whether the church was
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is, as such, not entirely irrelevant. I
12 take it that you will put then questions to the witness later on about
13 what might be the relevance of the damage done to the church? I mean, the
14 mere fact that the church was damaged, is that what you want to establish
15 or this specific church in relation to specific events that happened
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may proceed. Well, let's --
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Not proceed because it is a quarter of 2.00. That
21 means we will have to adjourn until tomorrow morning, same courtroom,
22 9.00. Ms. Pilipovic, until now, the Defence took approximately 20
23 minutes. Yes.
24 If there is no other issue to --
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For -- in order to clarify for the transcript,
2 the last part of the session that was not an open session was a private
3 session, although the English transcript says that it was closed session.
4 There might be some confusion since private session and closed session is
5 effectively the same in this courtroom. So, therefore, I will take care
6 that the, perhaps, that we find a clear line on whether we use closed
7 session or private session, and that it could create no confusion
8 whatsoever in the transcript. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning,
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
12 the 29th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.