1 Tuesday, 29 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to continue to
11 cross-examine -- to examine the Witness DP9?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Usher, could you please then escort
14 the witness into the courtroom.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP9.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please sit down.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP9, may I remind you that you are still bound by
21 the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS DP9 [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP9, good morning.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Mr. DP9, yesterday, by the end of the sitting yesterday, you were
7 asked if you knew if there were any damages on the church that you
8 mentioned in the period 1992 to 1994, that there were certain operations
9 around it.
10 A. In the spring and the summer of 1992 on the Orthodox church in
11 Veljine there was some damages that were not so important made by
12 hand-held rocket launchers and shells. And these weapons were fired on
13 the church. I think that was in July. I believe it was July. But that
14 period it's a bit difficult for me because it happened so long ago. But
15 the church was quite damaged because of tank shells that were fired on it
16 from the direction of Elo Elektra by the barracks Jusuf Dzonlic and then
17 the former military rubbish dump. And as it was established in military
18 expertise, the damage occurred because two tank shells -- first, it was
19 one which was a tank and then the other one was of a different kind, they
20 damaged the tower -- on the Veljine church.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP9.
22 Mr. DP9 could you repeat the name of the barracks?
23 A. I think that was Jusuf Dzonlic that was from that direction. I
24 don't know whether that was left from the front to the back, but that was
25 the part of town called Halilovici.
1 Q. Mr. DP9, do you have any knowledge at that time when you say that
2 that you say from that barracks there was the firing of tanks. Who had
3 the control of those barracks?
4 A. From the start of the hostilities these barracks was under the
5 control of the Muslim army. At that moment, I don't know how they called
6 themselves whether they were still the Green Berets or the Army of BH or I
7 don't know what other name they used.
8 Q. Mr. DP9, you told us yesterday where you were in the period of
9 September 1992. You told us that you were a member of the Territorial
10 Defence. Could you tell us in September 1992, what was the name of the
11 military unit that you belonged to. Perhaps you mentioned it but could
12 you perhaps repeat it just for continuity purposes.
13 A. I belonged to the company which belonged to the 1st Infantry
14 Battalion which was a part of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
15 Q. Could you tell us your 1st battalion, which brigade did it belong?
16 A. I think that it is possible that it was Ilidza Brigade because
17 this area belonged to Ilidza.
18 Q. Mr. DP9, could you tell us about the positions, the front lines
19 and its length of your company, if you know, and of your battalion?
20 A. On that part of the front, my company held the line from the
21 airport in Butmir, of the Krtelji base, Kotorac, Dobrinja, Dobrinja I, and
22 for a while also of Dobrinja IV. And then in the continuation left and
23 right the other companies' positions of this battalion continued.
24 Q. Mr. DP9, in your company, how many people, how strong was it, your
25 company? Did your company contain smaller units?
1 A. Companies are made up of platoons and the number of platoons vary
2 but the base is about 110, 120 people.
3 Q. Could you tell us as a member of the 1st Company of the 1st
4 Battalion, you said there were about 100 of you. Your positions when we
5 are speaking about being on duty, being on the front line, in which
6 facilities did you have accommodation? What did you use?
7 A. Depending on the configuration of the terrain and the facilities
8 that were there, what we used were the buildings on the front lines, on
9 the first lines, and where there were no buildings we used improvised
10 trenches that we made on the sports airport. Down there, there were some
11 containers which were reinforced to protect against fire. These were
12 mostly the facilities that we used.
13 Q. Could you tell us, depending on the positions of your company, how
14 far away was the front line, how far was the demarcation line between your
15 company and the members of BH Army unit?
16 A. That also depended on the terrain that was between us. And it
17 varied throughout the positions. It was mostly divided by streets and it
18 could be a distance of about 20 or 50, sometimes 30 metres, and where
19 there were less populated areas like the sports airport, civilian airport,
20 there were -- there was much more distance between us, some 100 metres.
21 Q. In relation to your -- the positions of your company, could you
22 tell us in the period from September 1992 until the 10th of August 1994,
23 was there combat in that area?
24 A. In this area, from time to time, there was combat. Sometimes
25 fierce. There were fightings. I apologise. And during a certain period,
1 and there were perhaps sometimes fighting of lesser intensity. Sometimes
2 there was mutual firing and on a daily basis, and the firing was provoked
3 sometimes by false alarms particularly during the time when there was not
4 good visibility in early morning or in the evening.
5 Q. Mr. DP9, if the Defence presents you with a city plan, a city map,
6 where you were as you say would you be capable of marking the lines, the
7 positions of your company or battalion?
8 A. I know very well where the demarcation lines were.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the
10 Defence would like to present part of the map that we have been using when
11 we are examining witnesses. That would be Defence Exhibit D1770.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. DP9, while we wait for the city map to be shown to you, could
15 you tell us what kind of weapons did your company have?
16 A. We were an infantry unit, an infantry formation, and we had
17 infantry weapons, which is supposed to be used by such formations. These
18 were semi-automatic rifles, automatic rifles, grenades, hand-held rocket
19 launchers. On the position of the company there was also a 60-millimetre
20 mortar which as it was needed it was moved to where there were intense
21 fighting or where there were direct threat of attack was reported to be.
22 And we also used rifle grenades.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a problem --
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Computers are not working. It's
25 okay now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the screen we
3 cannot see the map.
4 Q. Mr. DP9, could you tell us, considering you told us about what
5 weapons you used, what was your uniform like, if you had one?
6 A. At the beginning of the conflict we wore our own clothes except
7 for people who at home -- except for people who at home as members of the
8 reserve force had uniforms of the former Yugoslav Army and some people
9 also had uniforms of the police reserve force which are of a different
10 colour. But the uniforms we got later from an army warehouse and these
11 were not complete uniforms, but in part. And I think that it was
12 beginning of 1993 that I had the first complete new uniform and not an old
13 one from a warehouse.
14 Q. Mr. DP9, when you told us that on the part of the front line of
15 your company there were fierce combat and shooting on a daily basis and
16 firing from weapons, could you tell us whether you knew -- you had
17 personal knowledge from which positions in relation to the positions of
18 your company, units of the BH Army fired? Which were the positions?
19 A. Because the demarcation lines were so close, it wasn't hard to see
20 where there was firing coming on to our positions, except that these
21 points varied frequently, probably because of us returning the fire.
22 Q. Could you tell us from which weapons these units fired on your
23 positions, and did they have some specific positions that you knew about
24 and that were dominating your positions?
25 A. As an infantry soldier I knew the weapons quite well, so with a
1 lot of accuracy I can say which weapons were used on the front lines.
2 These were infantry weapons. Automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifles,
3 hand-held grenade launchers. And from the Mojmilo hill one BST recoilless
4 cannon. It's a type of artillery weapon. Then there were Browning heavy
5 machine-guns. And then from the Igman elevation points, there were heavy
6 artillery weapons, Howitzers, cannons and high-calibre mortars.
7 Q. Now that you told us what weapons were used by the BH Army, you
8 said BST. Could you please tell us what it is. Do we presume it to be a
9 recoilless gun?
10 A. Yes, it is a recoilless gun. It is an artillery weapon for
11 shorter distances. I think it is most accurate, it is about 1.000, 1.500
12 metres. I am not an artillery man, so I don't know the exact
13 characteristic of any medium character, but it is not a heavy weapon.
14 Q. Do you personally have knowledge from which positions this BST was
16 A. These were the positions of the Mojmilo hill which is located
17 between the Dobrinja locality and the Alipasino Polje locality, and it
18 dominates above one part of this locality.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do see that the map is now on the
20 ELMO and visible on our screens, so.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. DP9, could you have a look on your right-hand side and you
23 have a map of the city. Could you perhaps mark on this map the
24 positions --
25 A. Am I supposed to do it with a pencil?
1 Q. With a very fine black liner, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you not to bend over that much because
3 your head is in between the screen and -- yes. If you could do it this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, but it is a little small
6 and I can't see that very well.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. If you can, Mr. DP9, perhaps you can lift the map a little bit and
9 move your hands.
10 A. Is this all right like this?
11 Q. Go a bit further up. I think that is okay. No, go a bit further
12 up. The map. Could you just move it up so that we can see the lower
14 A. Can you see it now?
15 Q. Yes. This is okay now.
16 A. Do I have to put in -- mark the positions of Republika Srpska
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Mr. DP9, in relation to the line that you marked, marking the
21 positions of your company, could you mark the positions, the front line of
22 the BH Army in relation to yours?
23 A. Am I supposed to do it with the same marker?
24 Q. Just with a dotted line, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist, because we cannot
1 see it on the screen now. Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. DP9, now that you have marked the positions with a dotted
5 line, I can see that at one point this line is interrupted in the area of
6 Donji Kotorac can you please explain?
7 A. The interruptions of the line, as much as I was able to mark it on
8 the map, represents the civilian airport which was under the control after
9 UN forces, after they took it over from the Republika Srpska Army. And
10 for a while, I don't know, later on it was taken over by SFOR and
11 throughout the runway which was fenced off, they had their own vehicles
12 and their own people there.
13 Q. Mr. DP9, when you marked the lines on this map, the dotted lines
14 as positions of the BH Army, could you tell us if you know what were the
15 main facilities from which the BH Army was active, was operating, that
16 they used on the first line of the front line?
17 A. On the first line, residential buildings were used that were there
18 and I marked in the position according to them. There is the school. At
19 that time it was called Dusan Pajic-Dasic. I don't know what it is called
20 now, because it belongs to the Federation now, so I don't know what the
21 school is called now.
22 Q. Mr. DP9, could you mark the position of this school?
23 A. How am I supposed to do that?
24 Q. Just mark it with a number "1" and circle it with a pen.
25 A. Number "1," yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Can you tell us what unit was located there? I am referring to
2 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 A. According to some information which mainly came from people who
4 crossed over from the town or from people who were exchanged, the
5 prisoners and detainees, I mean, there was a special unit there of members
6 of the police commanded by a certain man called Vikic. He had been at
7 that post before the a war but I don't know for how long they stayed there
8 or how they changed shifts because there was some other positions there
9 held by other units.
10 Q. When you say there were positions held by other units, could you
11 be more precise? What units were they and what positions?
12 A. From the school Dusan Pajic-Dasic they dug trenches in the
13 direction of the Bijelo Polje road about 100 or 150 metres in front of the
14 school where there were containers which had been left behind, which had
15 been used as changing rooms for the sports area. There were also sandbags
16 there. And there was a unit there which had arrived from the flank so as
17 to be able to fire on the part of the area under our control. These were
18 people who had dug the trenches and were later exchanged, and they knew
19 that there were units from Dobrinja there and not Vikic's men. At the
20 building and behind it, and the ground there is higher than the school
21 itself there were firing points and I don't know who arranged this, but UN
22 forces arrived to check on these. They came with APCs because these
23 firing points were used to fire on the Bijelo Polje road which was an
24 important communication.
25 Q. Mr. DP9, could you please mark the building that you say was
1 behind the school building. Could you put a circle there and mark it with
2 number "2."
3 A. This building I think has a ground floor and then six floors, and
4 it is across the road from the school. I think that after the
5 United Nations intervened, there was no firing from that position for a
6 while -- for a time.
7 Q. Mr. DP9, when you say that the UN intervened, can you tell us if
8 you remember when this took place?
9 A. I think it was in the spring of 1994, but I am really sorry I
10 can't be more precise. A lot of time has elapsed since then.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP9.
12 Today you told us, as far as I was able to understand, that two
13 shells were fired from the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks in the direction of the
14 church of Veljine. Can you mark on the map where this barracks was.
15 A. I said that this was done from the direction of the barracks
16 because there are some other military facilities around it. So I will put
17 a circle but I can't pinpoint it with certainty. The people who carried
18 out an on-site inspection when they were carrying out an inspection of the
19 building marked it the way I will do now.
20 Q. Mr. DP9, would you please mark this with a number "3."
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is in the
22 area of the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks.
23 Q. Witness DP9, you told us that shots were fired in the direction of
24 the church. Can you tell us whether the church in Veljine was used for
25 the purposes of the army of the VRS?
1 A. The Army of Republika Srpska had trenches in front of the church
2 in Veljine and a prefabricated facility that had remained behind after the
3 church was constructed. This was used to keep building materials in. And
4 at the sides of the church in the wooded areas surrounding it, there were
5 sentry posts. The church itself was not used for any military activities.
6 Q. Mr. DP9, when you spoke of the demarcation lines and marked them
7 on the map, can you tell us whether there was any damage to residential
8 buildings at the demarcation lines in that period?
9 A. Throughout the war as the buildings were where they were and as
10 units of both armies were stationed there and there was constant firing,
11 and because weapons were used in these activities, there was damage
12 depending on the location of the building. Some buildings were damaged
13 more; some less, depending on where they were and what extent they were
14 exposed to the military activity.
15 Q. Can you tell us as far as you know what parts of the buildings you
16 used were damaged the most?
17 A. The buildings separating the Miroslava Krleze Street - I really
18 don't know what it is called now - suffered the worst damage. So it was
19 these buildings and the buildings across the road from them. Then the
20 buildings in the Indira Gandhi Street.
21 Q. Mr. DP9, when you say -- what streets were the ones that were the
22 most badly damaged?
23 A. Can I show it on the map?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Should I just show it or mark it?
1 Q. You may just mark it.
2 A. It is these buildings here.
3 Q. As you say this was the building -- the street called Miroslava
4 Krleze Street.
5 A. This is a street that had two sides and the buildings were damaged
6 on both sides, the same situation obtained in part of in the Indira Gandhi
7 Street and I can't remember the other street names, but there is another
8 street here which also was a street separating the right side from the
10 Q. Could you put a row of little X's there to show us where Miroslava
11 Krleze Street and the Indira Gandhi Street where buildings were heavily
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Mr. DP9, can you tell us, since you spent some time there at the
15 relevant time, 1992, 1993, 1994, can you tell us in your estimation
16 whether the damage to the buildings was proportionate or was there more
17 damage on one side than there was on the other? Can you assess this, you
19 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That calls for a legal
21 JUDGE ORIE: When I heard the word "proportionate" the same thing
22 came into my mind, but after I heard the explanation of Ms. Pilipovic, I
23 think the question is admissible, so the objection is denied. So whether
24 there was more damage on one side as there was on the other, that is what
25 the question was. Yes.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 Q. So can you answer, please?
3 A. I don't know to what extent I am able to estimate damage, but to
4 me, in the places where there was an exchange of fire, furniture caught
5 fire in the flats, and then the flats would burn. Where mortars landed,
6 there was destruction of parts of walls. And it was the same on both
7 sides of the lines.
8 Q. Mr. DP9, when you told us about your unit, can you tell us who the
9 commander of your company was?
10 A. My company commander was Mile Gavric. Before that in the
11 beginning there was another man, his name was Zoran. I don't know what
12 happened to him. He went elsewhere. He was there in the beginning and as
13 a refugee. I didn't know the local population well. So I don't know
14 whether he was a local man or not.
15 Q. When you say "local population" are you referring to the people
16 who were in your company?
17 A. In my company, there were people who lived in that area but also
18 others who, like me had fled from parts of town that were under Muslim
20 Q. Can you tell us whether in your company there were professional
21 soldiers or officers of the former JNA?
22 A. In my company there were no professional members of the Yugoslav
23 Army, no officers.
24 Q. Can you tell us how you as soldiers contacted your company
1 A. Wherever possible, temporary induction telephone lines were set
2 up, provisional telephone lines. But where this was not possible, we used
4 Q. Witness DP9, we talked about the buildings that were used at the
5 front lines. Can you tell us whether there were civilians in those
7 A. The buildings right next to the demarcation lines which were taken
8 by the army on both sides there were no civilians. I am certain there
9 were no civilians on our side. They were behind the lines in the rear.
10 On the opposite side, I didn't see any civilians, and I assume they must
11 have evacuated the civilians from buildings right along the demarcation
13 Q. When you say there were no civilians in the buildings, that they
14 had been evacuated from the front line, can you tell us in particular in
15 reference to the line -- the part of the line where your company was, what
16 the depth at which the civilians were -- was? If you can show that on the
18 A. The civilians were, as far as buildings go, in these buildings
19 here and in these buildings here, in family houses here. Their owners
20 stayed in those houses. They were civilians. At this depth we also had
21 our logistic support, food, telephone communications, first aid station in
22 case someone was wounded. We controlled an area several hundred meters
23 deep behind the front lines.
24 Q. When you said you had first aid clinic in case someone was
25 wounded, we are now referring to the part you marked. Can you tell us
1 whether any civilians were wounded?
2 A. This first aid station here was intended for soldiers. There were
3 other outpatient clinics used for civilians and there were hospitals where
4 civilians were taken. I wasn't there, but I know that if someone was
5 wounded by a projectile, a projectile that went astray, perhaps, people
6 had to have their wounds dressed and first aid had to be given them, and
7 then they would be sent on for treatment.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the transcript,
9 I want to say that the witness is explaining the position of the buildings
10 between the line of separation and the place labelled "Bijelo Polje." So
11 these are the buildings behind the demarcation line. Above the words
12 "Bijelo Polje" in the lower part of the map.
13 Q. Witness DP9, you told us that members of the Army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina fired from Mojmilo hill. Can you tell us what -- well,
15 first of all, can you mark where these positions were, if you know.
16 A. I have already marked this with a dotted line here facing the
17 Starosjedoci area. These other slopes of Mojmilo and at higher elevation
18 there were the weapons I mentioned, the recoilless gun, the Brownings and
19 all this was here on this hill. There are family houses on the hill,
20 trenches were dug connecting trenches and dugouts. And Atlantic City even
21 higher elevation was the United Nations base which I think on one occasion
22 during the war was taken by the Muslim army. But there were some members
23 of the peacekeeping forces there.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact
25 that the Defence has half an hour left, my colleague will use this time.
1 My co-counsel will use this time to put some questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. Thank
4 you, Mr. President.
5 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I would like us to come back to what you told us earlier. You
9 told us about firing from tanks that hit the church. What parts of the
10 church were hit?
11 A. The tower of the church was hit, of the Orthodox church in
12 Veljine. Below the dome on the tower.
13 Q. Very well. With your own eyes, were you able to see this damage
14 at the time; yes or no?
15 A. At the time --
16 Q. Could you just please answer with a yes or no.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you, yes or no, tell us what was the state of
19 the tower, please.
20 A. You mean after the shelling?
21 Q. After the tank fired.
22 A. The front part of the tower facing Dobrinja and the other side
23 facing Debelo Brdo were damaged, and the only thing that was left was the
25 Q. As far as you know, was it possible to have access after the tower
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was targeted? Was it possible to get to the higher point of the tower, to
2 the higher part of the tower; yes or no?
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin did, I miss anything or as the
5 witness not yet indicated where the church, the Veljine church was
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, he gave the
8 name of the church, and we are talking about the famous church which is
9 located exactly at the corner of the square that he indicated, but --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, my question was, of course, since
11 I mentioned the name of the church, you can deduce of that, that I heard
12 the witness use the name. When I asked whether the witness indicated
13 already where the church was located, it is not to you to say where the
14 church was located, but you can ask the witness whether he could indicate
15 where the church was located.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Of
19 Q. Witness, could you please use the pointer or even your hand and
20 just to indicate on the map where the church that we are talking is
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. Very well. Thank you.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the
25 church located on the map which is just the angle of the corner of the
1 square that he drew on the map.
2 Q. But, what could you do so that it is clearer, could you please
3 place number "4" next to the church. "5." I think we have already had 4.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, why -- why wasn't it possible to
6 get to the upper part of the tower?
7 A. In the building itself, there are no steps that lead to the dome
8 or to the tower. You only go with steps to the bell. But there were some
9 exits and some covers, and those people who came after the church was
10 damaged, they said that these exits and openings were just covered by the
11 debris after the shelling, and people couldn't get to the tower any more.
12 Q. Witness, what you are saying is that part of the wall fell down?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Thank you. I would like to go to another subject now since we
15 have the map of the city in front of us. First of all, I would like to
16 ask you to take the pointer, please, thank you, and to place it on the
17 northern part of the line that you drew alongside the street that was
18 known as Lukavica Street.
19 A. [Indicates]
20 Q. Very well. Could you just move your pointer to the left, please.
21 And by following the street -- no. Go by the main road on the left. Yes,
22 a little bit further. Stop now. Stop now. In the area that you just
23 indicated, Witness, do you know if there was just one single system of
24 trenches, I am talking about the trenches of the opposing side, or were
25 there several? And I am talking about the segment that you just
2 A. In this part that Lukavicka Cesta was dug up so that it can be
3 used as a trench, as a connecting trench for communication towards the
4 buildings of Dobrinja going towards this side, and towards the Mojmilo
5 hill. Just behind the road, there were these trenches, connecting
6 trenches to which manpower and supplies came. And then there was another
7 system of trenches which went towards this side of the water supply
8 towards the top of Mojmilo hill where there was a passage to the Mojmilo
9 locality and Alipasino locality. And there was another trench which runs
10 through the fields and orchards up there.
11 Q. Thank you very much. As far as you know, I would like you to take
12 again the fine liner, and if you can please draw this on the map as
13 accurately as possible. Thank you. And please by using dotted lines.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Witness, thank you. Could you just place your pen to the
16 beginning of the line or the lines that you drew. You just drew another
17 line. Could you please place your pen there.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. Yes. Thank you.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to the
21 south of the lines that he drew.
22 Q. What is this location? Do you know what is there, what is located
23 there to the south of the road?
24 A. On this location, on the left-hand side there is the electricity
25 transmitter for the Dobrinja. There is some green area and then all the
1 way to the Lamela building.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. I think that I heard --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think I heard,
4 Mr. President, that there was talk of the parking which I cannot see that
5 in the translation, that is, I cannot see it in the transcript. And since
6 I heard the parking mentioned, I am going to ask a question again.
7 Q. Witness, I believe that you mentioned a parking. Was it a
8 mistake? Did I have a dream?
9 A. No. There are several parking lots there.
10 Q. Yes, but I am only interested in one and it is not in the
11 transcript. Could you please indicate this parking, Witness, please.
12 This is deliberate, I know that is.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I noticed that you are speaking
14 aloud in a language that we cannot hear. And I heard the translators
15 saying something like "this is deliberate."
16 Was that a translation of what Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Indeed, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what, if you are talking to
19 Ms. Pilipovic, we now notice that this is translated as well. I don't
20 know what was deliberate or not deliberate, but I asked you before not to
21 speak at such a tone that anyone else could hear it, if you confer between
22 counsel. Would you please keep that in mind.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I
24 apologise most profusely.
25 Q. Witness, could you please indicate again the location of this
1 parking lot please.
2 A. As far as I understand this map, it is this, this and this. All
3 of these are parking lots between the building.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
5 witness mentioned several parkings which are to the south of the road.
6 Q. Witness, in relation to this, what we are talking about, what was
7 the distance in relation to this parking lot that we are talking about?
8 Could you tell us what was the distance between the parking lot itself and
9 the nearest trenches that you drew, if you know that approximately?
10 A. There is a green area to where the trenches where, between there
11 and where the trenches are. It could be --
12 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreter didn't hear the
13 number of metres of the distance. Could the witness please repeat.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number of metres you just
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between 40 and 50 metres. It is one
17 green area. It is a green, which is next to the parking lot.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness.
20 Witness, from the positions that you had the control of that you
21 occupied, and if you know from the Lukavica barracks, was it possible to
22 see the parking lot that we just spoke about?
23 A. No, sir, that is impossible.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, Witness, I am going to go to another
25 line of questioning. You indicated -- this is a very last question -- did
1 you know if these trenches that you just drew were used by the army, by
2 the BH Army?
3 A. Yes, for their needs. They dug them -- they dug them for their
5 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to go to another line of
6 questioning, Witness. You spoke of a mortar, a 60-millimetre mortar. Did
7 you have the opportunity to find out about even theoretically something
8 about the way this weapon functioned; yes or no?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know if this type of weapon is a very accurate
11 weapon; yes or no? Do you know that? What can you tell us about it?
12 A. For a weapon, there are many reasons whether it is accurate or not
13 depends on who is handling it, whether this person is trained or not, and
14 what kind of ammunition is used, whether it is old ammunition, whether it
15 was used provisionally, whether it was changed, modified, and every weapon
16 has a margin of error, which it makes when it is used, when it is being
18 Q. Very well.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We have some problems in receiving the French
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am on another channel so --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am on the English channel. Could we just see
23 whether we receive any French translation on channel 5. We do not. Is
24 there a technical problem? We do not get any translation on channel 5 in
25 French. Is there -- is it the interpreters that have problems or are the
1 technicians --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us in the English channel?
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... a technical
4 problem to be solved.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, just one moment, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis?
7 MR. MUNDIS: The French booth is now speaking on the English
8 channel to ask if we can hear them and clearly they are coming through on
9 that channel.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I now switched to channel 4. Yes, I hear --
11 [Interpretation] At the moment, I am listening to you on number 5.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much and thank
13 you for the interpretation.
14 Q. Now Witness, you told us earlier about the area at the back where
15 civilians still lived. Could you please indicate it on the map.
16 A. It would be about here, is where the buildings are concerned, but
17 this and that over there.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness indicated two
20 areas to the north and south of the enclave next to number "5."
21 Q. Witness, these two areas that we have, were there, as far as you
22 know, shellings that took place? If yes, what were they like and where
23 did they come from?
24 A. These areas suffered shellings on several occasions with heavy
25 weapons and mortars from Mount Igman and from the direction of the city of
1 Sarajevo. I think from the area of Alipasino Polje with heavy mortars and
2 with lighter mortars from the area of Mojmilo and from the area of
4 Q. Thank you very much. Were there military targets there as far as
5 you know?
6 A. In the areas on the edges there was part of the military
7 logistics. There were kitchens and the clinic, as I have already said.
8 And further at the back in some parts was the former barracks. In the
9 other parts there was nothing else except private houses.
10 Q. Witness, how could you explain this firing, therefore, this
11 targeting of these areas?
12 A. Well I presume that the civilian areas were not the actual targets
13 of this artillery but these projectiles were probably badly fired. They
14 were of poor quality or simply the weapons, the charges were not of good
15 quality and they probably didn't fall where they were supposed to.
16 Q. As far as you know, what you're telling us were mistakes. Was
17 this frequent, very frequent, relatively frequent? How would you describe
19 A. Because we are talking about people who are not so well trained to
20 handle weapons, and because these were old storages of ammunition. These
21 were war reserves from the 50s and the 60s and because they were also
22 improvised, made new workshops with poor charges, this was a frequent
24 Q. Thank you. Witness --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of Madam
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Registrar, I will show you Exhibit 3274, P3274 with the ERN number 02 --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the ERN number.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, if this will
4 help you, we have the photo itself, just to save time, if we can have your
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could use that photograph and then see
7 whether Madam Registrar finds the original, we can compare it. She has
8 found it already so perhaps we better use the original. Did you indicate
9 before Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to Madam Registrar, that you would use this
10 photograph? That would be very helpful so that she can prepare for it.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, and I apologise for that.
12 Because I have to do it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: If would also be helpful if advance notice could be
15 given to the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is examination-in-chief so you could have
17 foreseen that you were going to use this photograph, and it would have
18 been fair to inform the Prosecution as well.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3274 has A, B, C. Which photograph would
20 you like, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the B, the one that
22 I showed you. Thank you, in advance.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you prefer to use the marked or the unmarked
24 photograph? And would the Prosecution oppose against the unmarked?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The marked photo would save us
2 MR. MUNDIS: If I could see the photograph, please, then, the
3 marked one.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put the photograph on the
5 ELMO, Mr. Usher.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness --
8 JUDGE ORIE: In such a way that we don't have the reflection.
9 Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just for the record, this appears to
11 relate to a sniping incident that is not part of the Rule 65 ter or
12 expanded Rule 65 ter notice that the Defence has provided.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is this either 6 or 18?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. Here we are going to
15 speak about the incident number 22 on one hand, and of another matter more
16 important as a general rule, which is the quality of the maps that is
17 submitted to us. The questions are to be asked -- must be asked in order
18 to find out whether what has been shown to us on Prosecution maps, whether
19 this is to be trusted or not.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we find this in your 65 ter summary?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure that we can find
22 it in this form, but I think this is going to be a matter of principle.
23 We always maintained that we will try and demonstrate that these maps
24 which are purely virtual, they are contested by the Defence. And we
25 didn't think it was necessary to put it in writing but from now on, we can
1 should be more extensive. This is a principle. We are contesting these
3 JUDGE ORIE: I am not contesting your right to contest maps. But
4 I am just point at your duty to indicate what the witness will testify
5 about and if it is about the inaccuracy of maps, it should be in the 65
6 ter. And if you want to pay attention to incident number 22, it is at
7 least surprising that if you mention two other incidents, that you do not
8 indicate that it is also about 22. That is -- the matter of principle of
9 course no one denies the Defence the right to contest the accuracy of
10 maps. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether the Prosecution
11 could prepare for cross-examination by having a reliable basis in your 65
12 ter summary.
13 Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, for the record, the Prosecution also
15 objects to the colloquy on page 28, lines 17 through 23, having taken
16 place in the presence of the witness. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I should have been more cautious in
18 this respect as well.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, bearing in mind
20 the cooperation of the parties we suggest to pass on to incident number 6
21 which --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the Judges are
23 conferring so --
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the reason why what you want to
1 ask the witness is not in the 65 ter summary is not an acceptable reason.
2 We will let you continue now, but this is not a decision on whether we
3 will take into consideration the evidence that follows from it, and the
4 Chamber will consider how to proceed when this happens again. It is not
5 the first time. You have been invited to be more precise. What we see
6 now is that you leave out whole sniping incidents that you think are
7 relevant. We will keep a close eye on what kind of questions you are
8 going to put to the witness now. We will also keep in mind whether these
9 questions are such that it would be really -- whether it really would have
10 frustrated the Prosecution's preparation for cross-examination. But I
11 indicate already to you that we cannot proceed this way. I hope, and the
12 Chamber is not willing to repeat these kind of remarks for the next eight
13 weeks. So just saying, "well I should have done it or I should not have
14 done it, it is a matter of principle, we denied it so many times." We,
15 the Chamber, wants just as the Defence should have and usually had a fair
16 opportunity to prepare for cross-examination, the same is valid for the
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Very well.
21 Q. On the photograph that you can see on your right, Witness,
22 please --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And perhaps could we have a
24 zoom on this photograph.
25 Q. Witness, can you see what is mentioned to the side of the arrow
1 which is in the centre?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom on the
5 arrow. Could we go to the maximum, please. I presume this is the
7 Q. Witness, what you have just below the arrow, what is it, if you
9 A. These are buildings, private houses, that are part of the
10 so-called airport settlement, airport locality, next to Dobrinja V.
11 Q. Very well. Nothing else? Could you tell us something else?
12 Could you see anything else?
13 A. This is where the arrow is pointing, on the right and left-hand
14 side are the buildings in continuation of the Mitsubishi Avenue. There
15 are some restaurants there, some disco clubs. I know this area quite well
16 because that is where I live.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can remove the photograph
19 now. I would like to have another map shown referring to incident number
20 6 which I believe was clearly mentioned in our summary and bears the
21 number of 1771. I think this map should be placed on the ELMO. But,
22 Mr. President, I believe that we are approaching breaktime and I don't
23 know whether it would be a good idea to have a break now and then we can
24 continue with the questions after. Whatever you want.
25 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Because I notice that at five minutes to --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Some time, Mr. President,
3 because we have to be very precise on these incidents.
4 JUDGE ORIE: How much time I asked you, that it will be a certain
5 time that -- because Ms. Pilipovic --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quarter of an hour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Because Ms. Pilipovic told us that at five minutes to
8 10.00 that since you would have another half an hour, I think she was
9 rather moderate, because you had more time. So, therefore, yesterday you
10 took 20 minutes. Today you used one hour and 25 minutes. So that would
11 mean that you have one quarter of an hour left. We will adjourn until
13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I have a few remarks to make.
16 The first is that unfortunately - and I inform the Defence right
17 away - that for technical reasons it seems not to be possible to have the
18 videolink as scheduled. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as I understand by now
19 that the videolink could be established on from the 12th of November. I
20 think it was scheduled to start next Monday, but it will be the Tuesday in
21 the week to follow next week. So that would be the 12th of November where
22 we could start. The Chamber regrets that it cannot be done as scheduled,
23 but technical difficulties, we can do a lot, but not to solve the
24 technicians' problems and the availability of people. So, therefore,
25 please prepare for the 12th of November.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be objections, for example, for
3 reasons of the availability of the witnesses, please inform the Registry
4 as soon as possible so that final arrangements can be made. As long as we
5 do not hear from you, we take it that the witnesses will be available on
6 the 12th of November and if necessary the following day. Then the second
7 issue I would like to address is that we have experienced several times,
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that when you hear something in the original language
9 of the witness, and if you notice it has not been part of the translation,
10 you, at several occasions, indicated what you heard in the original
11 language and that it was not in the translation.
12 Under these circumstances, it would be proper to ask the witness
13 without any further explanation to repeat his answer and perhaps ask
14 specific attention of the interpreters, since you missed, and there is no
15 problem if you say, "I missed something in the translation." But you
16 should not tell in the presence of the witnesses what part you did not
17 hear in the translation and what, as you heard it, was part of his answer.
18 So under the circumstances, indicate that there might be an incomplete
19 translation, and invite the witness to repeat his answer and then the
20 interpreters, I am certain, it's -- I mean, if a mistake is made, the
21 interpreters are not the only ones in the world who would make a mistake.
22 I am very impressed by the performances and just as we all make mistakes,
23 it might happen, but then we should ask the witness to repeat his answer
24 and the interpreters then will be fully aware to even do even more their
25 best, as they already do.
1 Then the third issue is about the 65 ter summaries. This morning
2 there was a complaint, and I think the complaint was justified, and I
3 don't know what else we will hear, what testimony we will hear about
4 incident 22. If it would just be what we heard until now, it might not
5 have a dramatic effect. But the Chamber uses this opportunity to make
6 clear that the Defence is entitled to examine witnesses in order to
7 present its case. But the Rules are quite clear whether you repeated
8 certain issues already seven or eight or nine times is of no importance.
9 The Prosecution should know what they can expect and should be in a
10 position to prepare for cross-examination.
11 It's not the first time now that this has happened and as you
12 might have -- as you all know that in football matches, those referees
13 that are very lenient in the beginning, at a certain moment they will pull
14 a yellow card and you know what comes after the yellow card.
15 The Defence is entitled, but to examine witnesses, it is a
16 fundamental right, but it is not a right that can be exercised without
17 observing duties attached to it. And one of the duties is that the
18 Defence should give such 65 ter summaries that the Prosecution is in a
19 position to prepare for cross-examination. I hope that this is a clear
21 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Good morning, Mr. President. Given those comments,
23 this might be an appropriate time to draw to your attention a filing by
24 the Defence yesterday which expresses itself to be in accordance to the
25 decision of the Trial Chamber. The filing is described as "the broader
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 summaries of statements of the witnesses," in other words, the expanded
2 65 ter summaries. I notice that the summaries appear to still not comply
3 with the oral order of the Trial Chamber last week. Could I draw your
4 attention for example, to witness number 21 - I won't give the witness's
5 name - the last sentence of that summary reads: "His testimony would be
6 important for scheduled sniping incidents numbers 4, 9 and 14," and
7 nothing more is said. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We will read it. If that would be the last sentence,
9 then it does not comply with the order.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin you have another 15 minutes to examine in chief
11 the witness. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your
14 decision, Mr. President. I take note of the opinion. I take it to be a
15 red card, if I understood your words correctly.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, the red card is what will come if you continue to
18 do similar things.
19 Please be seated, Mr. DP9.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Good morning again, Witness. I don't know whether what we have on
23 the screen -- could we just check that. Yes. Thank you.
24 Witness, having looked at the map on your right, could you please
25 look at the document, 3264, which I have here, which was mentioned here.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have got a copy, if that can
2 save time.
3 THE REGISTRAR: I am sorry, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I don't know which
4 document you are referring to. It is a "P" document or...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the copies you just distributed or...
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just asked
8 for your leave to show the witness document P3264. I have a copy in my
9 hand, and if it is in the interest of saving time, then --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you -- have you indicated this to the Registrar
11 during the break, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I mentioned it on the list,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the last list?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the list 14th through
16 the 18th of October, 2002. And I don't know whether -- it is the very
17 last page, in any case.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please show it to the Prosecution, whether
19 there would be any -- is this a marked photograph or not?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It is marked in a sense
21 that there are some pen markings on it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you put it on the ELMO so that you can see
23 it. Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, this exhibit was notified to us by the
25 Defence and we have our copy.
1 JUDGE ORIE: When was this done? Last --
2 MR. MUNDIS: I believe on the 11th of October.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please put it on the ELMO. Yes, we could
4 use a photo for the time being, a copy, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I take it that
5 the Prosecution will carefully see to it that it is the same document.
6 Yes, please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph, please?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. Witness, can you distinguish something which seems to
11 be like the bell tower of the church? It is slightly to the left.
12 A. Behind this building I see a dome of the Orthodox church in
14 Q. Very well. Witness, bearing in mind or referring to the item that
15 you have described --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am listening. Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I -- sorry.
19 Q. Witness, is this the facility which was reconstructed after the
20 tank firing?
21 A. This facility was reconstructed only after the Dayton Agreement.
22 I think in 1996, and throughout the war, this facility was destroyed and
23 it was not possible to restore it or rebuild it because of the firing.
24 Q. Thank you. This type of photograph with the outline of the church
25 that we can see, could it have been taken, bearing in mind the destruction
1 in this way precisely, at the time of the war after the shelling of the
2 church; yes or no?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the photograph, please--
6 Mr. Usher, could you please -- [In English] Could we have the map on the
7 ELMO. [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Looking at this map on your right, Witness, could you please
9 identify with the pointer two points where there is number "6" and where
10 there is number "18." Do you see them?
11 A. This is point number "6" and point number "18."
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
14 witness did as he was asked.
15 Q. Now, the question I want to ask you is the following: From what
16 we call the site of the church, Witness, do we have any kind of direct
17 view on the canal of the Dobrinja, and what I mean by the site of the
18 church is the front of the church.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution objects unless it can be established that
21 the witness was in the church and had a line of sight.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please verify the factual basis of the
23 knowledge of the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the front
25 doesn't mean the -- inside the church. And what I mean for the French
1 transcript that I am listening, and the interpretation that I am listening
2 is not what appears in the English transcript.
3 Q. Now, Witness, did you go at the time, at the time of the war, to
4 the location of the church that we are talking about?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the front of the church, that is, the
7 clearing which is located in front of the main entrance to the church?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you ever look from that location towards Dobrinja?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. And now I am just going to ask you: Did you go to the
12 Lukavica Barracks; yes or no?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, since you went to the front of the church and
15 turned towards Dobrinja, since you went there, did you see, did you have a
16 direct view on the Dobrinja river; yes or no?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could you tell us why?
19 A. The view of the Dobrinja river is hidden by a wooded area, by tall
20 buildings that were constructed in Dobrinja IV and III.
21 Q. Was it possible, Witness, at any point in the war to see in front
22 of the square in front of the church, the front of the church, was it
23 possible to see the water in the Dobrinja river?
24 A. No, absolutely not.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, now, starting from the principle
1 that assuming that the church has not changed location, did you go back
2 after the war to the church on whatever occasion?
3 A. I go to church regularly when there are important church holidays.
4 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to go to this church, to the
5 upper floor of this church, if it is possible to go there?
6 A. The access is possible only to the first balcony of the church
7 where the choir is.
8 Q. I am going to stop you here. From this first balcony of the
9 church did you ever look to the outside in the direction of Dobrinja, if
10 there is an opening, if there is an opening to look through?
11 A. There is a small church window on the balcony. It is made of a
12 coloured glass, invitrage, so you cannot look from the church outside. It
13 is about 4 metres up from the level of the ground.
14 Q. Thank you. I am going to come back to the photograph that you had
15 a look at and that you identified. At the time of the events and bearing
16 in mind, Witness, what you just told us, would it have been technically
17 possible for a shot to be fired from the location of the church and hit
18 someone on the road that you see before you? Do you want me to repeat the
20 A. No, it is not possible.
21 Q. Could you tell us why not, according to you, technically speaking,
22 it is not possible?
23 A. I told you that the tower was shelled and even if it was possible
24 to get up there, this was exposed to firing from all the surrounding
25 buildings and Mojmilo hill, and this would have been equal to suicide to
1 attempt such a thing.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, you told us that you also went to the
3 Lukavica Barracks. From the Lukavica Barracks, did you ever have a look
4 at in the direction of Dobrinja; yes or no?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it possible from the Lukavica Barracks to look to
7 see beyond the very front line the first line, the Serb line in Dobrinja,
8 is it possible to see beyond there; yes or no?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, was it possible from the Serb lines that you
11 indicated whether they were on the front line or at the rear, was it
12 possible to see the sight of the parking lot that you indicated earlier
13 which is located 40 or 50 metres from the trenches of the defence; yes or
15 A. No.
16 Q. You categorically claim "no"?
17 A. The parking lot is surrounded by tall buildings, by three -- on
18 three sides, and the fourth side is the Mojmilo hill which we did not have
19 under our control, so we were not able to see it.
20 Q. Thank you very much. The very last question, Witness. On the map
21 that you have on your right, you see the lines that go down in an oblique
22 way north-east, south-west. Can you see these defence lines going in that
24 A. Do you mean these lines?
25 Q. Yes. Could you continue these lines. These lines, yes. Thank
1 you very much. These lines, bearing in mind in what you have just told
2 us, do these lines seem correctly indicated or incorrectly indicated?
3 A. In a small part they are correct, but for the most part they are
4 not correct.
5 Q. Could you please indicate the areas that are not -- that have not
6 been correctly marked?
7 A. What is incorrect is the line or put too far back. This is the
8 Miroslava Krleze Street. Next to the school, that is completely wrongly
9 put in. It is in fact a completely different direction. It is an error
10 of about half a kilometre, more than half a kilometre. Here this is
11 correct, and this part here is -- this is small map -- but this may be 10
12 metres or so where there is a mistake.
13 Q. Witness, as much as you can with a black pen, could you please
14 mark, indicate again, what you think to be the true line of the Serb
15 lines, please, with a black pen.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. This is referring to Serb lines; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you please mark next to them -- could you please mark next
20 to them indication like "VRS" or "SRK" at the bottom of the line. Put
21 "SRK," bottom of the line, yes.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you very much. And if on this map, if you can also rectify
24 the other line, the opposing line, the positions of the other side, if
25 this is possible could you do that, in a dotted line, please.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Thank you, Witness.
3 Witness, I would like us to move on the map and to look on the
4 other side, the western side below the -- no, above, above the central
5 boulevard of Dobrinja. Could we please move the map on the ELMO slightly.
6 Thank you. Stop, stop, stop.
7 Above where it says "boulevard" you see long buildings. Could you
8 please indicate just above the word "boulevard." I think that is the
9 Boulevard of the Defenders. To the left. More to the left. No, that's
10 right. Please, to the left. To the left. No. No. Above. Above. Yes.
11 Stop. No, above. Above. Yes. Don't move.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, the witness is pointing
14 to a rectangle representing a building, and I think that is -- this is
15 above the word "boulevard."
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, how high was this building, as far as
17 you know?
18 A. This building is located in the former Mitsubishi Avenue where
19 there are many shops and commercial centres and I think that this building
20 has eight to ten floors. I can't remember exactly at the moment.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Building that are around to the south,
22 south-west, and to the north-west of these buildings, are these buildings
23 of the same height?
24 A. These buildings are of similar height, perhaps there is a floor of
25 difference between them. I can't exactly tell you. But this is
1 approximately the height. This is a locality which was built in
3 Q. Very last question --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this really is the last question.
5 You took already 80 minutes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 Q. Witness, do you know if there were prisons in Dobrinja, and if yes
8 could you indicate their name and location, please. Thank you.
9 A. According to what I know from the exchanges and people who have
10 escaped, there were at least two prisons in the former discotheque Turbo
11 Mitsubishi and in the Babylon discotheque and these were in the
12 underground premises of these buildings and one of the prisons was called
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Thank you witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you tell us where prisons appear
17 in the 65 ter.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have it before me. I
19 can't give you an answer now. At these elements which were just handed to
20 me. I don't know -- I don't have it here on this very spot. Perhaps I
21 could check and let you know a little later.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the
24 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
3 Q. Good morning, DP9.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Can you please tell us when the first time you met with the
6 Defence counsel in this case, please?
7 A. Well I think it was in the spring that I had contacts with some
8 people, a gentleman and a lady, who came to ask me whether I would be
9 willing to testify in this trial.
10 Q. These people that you are referring to, this gentleman and lady,
11 were they investigators or were they the Defence counsel?
12 A. They were counsel.
13 Q. Do you see either of those counsel in the courtroom today?
14 A. No, not the ones I saw then.
15 Q. And when you say "it was in the spring" was that the spring of
17 A. Yes, it was in the spring of this year.
18 Q. And when you met with this gentleman and this lady, did you tell
19 them about the confrontation lines or the demarcation lines that you've
20 testified about today?
21 A. We didn't discuss those matters. They simply wanted some
22 information as to whether I would be willing to appear before The Hague
23 Tribunal, if it was necessary. And they wanted to take my details so that
24 if I agreed to testify, they could keep me informed of further
25 developments. They told me that I might be called upon to testify quite
1 soon, perhaps in May.
2 Q. Do you recall the names of either the gentleman or the lady that
3 you met with in the spring of 2002?
4 A. The lady's name was Snjezana and I don't remember the gentleman's
5 first name. I think his last name was Radovic. I apologise if I am wrong
6 because quite some time has elapsed.
7 Q. When was the first time that anyone from the Defence team asked
8 you about the placement or the location of the confrontation lines in
10 A. When I arrived here as a witness of The Hague Tribunal, I had
11 contacts with the Defence counsel present here and we talked about some
12 questions they were interested in with a view to building up their defence
14 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was that you arrived here in
15 The Hague and met with the Defence counsel?
16 A. I arrived in The Hague a little over two weeks ago and it was then
17 that I had contacts with them. And after that this weekend, a few days
18 ago, again.
19 Q. And do you recall when during this period that you have been in
20 The Hague you discussed the location of the confrontation lines with the
22 A. I think we discussed this the last time I met the Defence counsel.
23 Q. So that would be over the past weekend; is that correct?
24 A. That was just before the past weekend, day earlier.
25 Q. So, Friday of last week; is that right?
1 A. Yes. This weekend was a long one because there was a holiday on
2 Thursday. So I think it could have been perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday, but
3 every day seems the same to me here. So I am not sure whether it was
4 Tuesday or Wednesday.
5 Q. And when you say you met and discussed this with Defence counsel,
6 is that Ms. Pilipovic and/or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
9 wishes to know how relevant this very lengthy question is.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP9, may I ask you to -- first of all, do you
11 understand or speak any English or French?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir. I don't speak any foreign
14 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to take off your earphones. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I think your question was what was the
17 relevance of these questions. I wanted to give the opportunity to the
18 Prosecution to respond to that, but if you want to specify your question,
19 please proceed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This will be sufficient.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, could you please respond.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution submits this is
24 relevant in particular for two reasons or at least for two reasons. The
25 first one being as the Trial Chamber is well aware, the Prosecution has on
1 numerous occasions referred to the Defence obligation pursuant to
2 Rule 90(H) to put its case to the Prosecution witnesses. We are now
3 seeing through at least this witness an explanation for why that wasn't
4 done and why that wasn't done when the Prosecution witnesses who could
5 address these matters were here testifying before the Trial Chamber. And
6 I can give you a couple of examples, Ismet Hadzic who testified about the
7 confrontation lines in Dobrinja. Those confrontation lines were not
8 challenged by the Defence during the Prosecution case. And now, during
9 the course of the Defence case, we are seeing what the Prosecution would
10 describe as significant differences between the confrontation lines as put
11 by the Prosecution witnesses, and as put by this Defence witness.
12 We have alluded in the past to perhaps the need for either
13 recalling witnesses or putting on other witnesses in a rebuttal case, and
14 the Prosecution is simply trying to determine exactly why it is that the
15 Defence failed to abide by Rule 90(H) during the course of the Prosecution
17 JUDGE ORIE: So the relevance is mainly a procedural one.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, however, the second reason, Mr. President, can
19 also go to the credibility of the witness with respect to information that
20 the witness is now providing which may or may not - and I stress the "may
21 or may not" - be as a direct result of Prosecution evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes Mr. President. Perhaps
24 one day we should be interested in the provisions in Rule 90(H). If I can
25 just have 30 seconds. I am not going to speak for longer. It is
1 literally impossible for Defence team, which is made up of two counsel and
2 not like a team of many like the opposing side, it is impossible for us
3 during the Prosecution case to gather all the useful elements for the
4 case. It is not possible to have all the information when there is only
5 two of us here. We do our best. We gather the information that we get
6 after the fact.
7 Now, to ban us from using it in the interest of justice and truth
8 because of the Rules -- because of the obligation that we have of the
9 Rules, we believe that this is really impossible. Now, as far as the
10 credibility of the witness is concerned, I don't know whether we are going
11 to do much -- anything to do with much with his credibility, whether he
12 saw Mr. Brown or Mr. Smith or whoever. I don't think this has nothing to
13 do with it at all.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I may?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to respond to that? Well, we heard
17 the objection, we heard your response. We heard the response to that of
18 the Defence and the objection is denied. So, please proceed.
19 MR. MUNDIS:
20 Q. Witness, with respect to -- sorry.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Headphones.
22 Q. With respect, Witness, to the destruction of the church, when was
23 the first time you mentioned the destruction of the church to the Defence
25 A. I think I first mentioned the destruction of the church to the
1 counsel when I told them what areas I covered with my unit, and that would
2 have been when we met on Tuesday or Wednesday last week.
3 Q. Witness, during the period from September 1992 through August
4 1994, what rank did you hold in the VRS?
5 A. Throughout the war I had no rank. I was simply a private.
6 Q. And I take it that the infantry unit that you were assigned to was
7 a platoon; is that correct? The basic infantry unit being a platoon?
8 A. The -- yes, the basic infantry unit is a platoon.
9 Q. How many men were in your platoon?
10 A. The number of men in my platoon varied from 24 to 32,
12 Q. What was the rank and name of your platoon leader?
13 A. The first leader of my platoon was Bosko Vujadin who had the rank
14 I think to start with of a Staff Sergeant from the reserves. The reserve
16 Q. Was Bosko Vujadin subsequently replaced as your platoon leader?
17 A. Mr. Vujadin left to take up another duty and Igor Bratic and with
18 him from the JNA he brought with him the rank of lance corporal. And I
19 think that in the reserves, this rank is automatically transformed into
20 the rank of sergeant.
21 Q. Which company was your platoon a part of?
22 A. My platoon was part of the 1st Company.
23 Q. How many platoons, if you know, did the 1st Company have?
24 A. The 1st Company had four platoons.
25 Q. Was each of those platoons approximately the same size as your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the name and rank of the company commander during this
4 period from September 1992 through August 1994?
5 A. This was Mile Gavric and his rank, I think was that of a staff
6 sergeant, and whether he was promoted, I can't remember.
7 Q. And was Mile Gavric the company commander during that entire
9 A. No. An educated man arrived who had the rank of lieutenant and
10 his name, I think, was Zoran Grumic.
11 Q. Moving up the chain of command, the next level would be a
12 battalion; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Which battalion was the 1st Company subordinated to during this
15 time period?
16 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion.
17 Q. And how many companies did the 1st Infantry Battalion have?
18 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion had four companies, one of which was
19 for logistics.
20 Q. During the period from September 1992 through August 1994, who was
21 the commander, the name and rank of the commander of the 1st Infantry
23 A. The commander was, until he was killed, Bosko Vujadin. Before
24 that it was the Crisis Staff that held this post. I don't know which of
25 them was the most important or whether they were all equal. But after he
1 was killed in 1993 in the early summer, Mr. Dusan Gavran arrived, and he
2 remained the commander throughout the period you are interested in.
3 Q. Do you recall the ranks of either Bosko Vujadin or Mr. Dusan
5 A. Mr. Bosko Vujadin had the rank of staff sergeant from the
6 reserves; and Mr. Gavran, when he took up his post, had the rank of
8 Q. Witness, perhaps I misunderstood, but I believe you earlier said
9 that Bosko Vujadin was your platoon leader; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. And when he left that post, he became the commander of the
12 Q. Just so I am clear, this individual went from being a platoon
13 leader to being a battalion commander; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, yes. You are correct.
15 Q. The next level up the chain of command from a battalion would be a
16 brigade; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. I think that's how it is in the army.
18 Q. Do you know which brigade your battalion, the 1st Infantry
19 Battalion, was subordinated to?
20 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. We gravitate toward the Ilidza
21 municipality, so it would have been the Ilidza Brigade or some other
22 Sarajevo brigade, but I am not sure. If it is of any assistance, I know
23 who the commander was. Maybe you can tell by that.
24 Q. I will get to that in just a moment, Witness. Do you know how
25 many battalions were part of the brigade?
1 A. No, I don't know that.
2 Q. Who was the commander, the name and rank, if you know, of the
3 brigade commander that was superior to your platoon?
4 A. I know about Mr. Veljko Stojanovic. I think he had the rank of
5 major, perhaps.
6 Q. Witness, how in your platoon did you receive orders from the
7 platoon leader?
8 A. The platoon leader issued orders in person, if he was present in
9 the platoon, or he sent them by courier or the induction telephone lines.
10 Q. When your platoon was on the front lines or the demarcation lines,
11 where was your platoon leader?
12 A. Our platoon leader was in one of the sentry posts with us or
13 perhaps in the company headquarters.
14 Q. How frequently did the platoon leader issue orders to you via a
16 A. Only if there was an interruption in the telephone line due to
17 military operations or some sort of breakdown, or if he was prevented from
18 coming in person.
19 Q. What was the length along the front line that your platoon would
20 be responsible for at any given time during this period?
21 A. My platoon was responsible for one-third of the line I marked, and
22 it changed shifts with other platoons from the company, so that we were
23 stationed according to need and according to the orders we received.
24 Q. How long approximately was the confrontation line in Dobrinja that
25 you marked earlier on the maps?
1 A. It was about 3 kilometres long, or maybe even less. I am not sure
3 Q. And you're telling us that your platoon of 24 to 32 men were
4 responsible for approximately 1 kilometre of that line?
5 A. A little less than that.
6 Q. When your platoon received orders from the platoon leader, were
7 those orders always carried out?
8 A. Orders had to be carried out.
9 Q. And that principle would apply throughout the chain of command up
10 and down is that right?
11 A. Yes that's how the army functions, on that principle.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.
13 According to the usual rule, it would be proper to ask the witness whether
14 he knew about the way the chain of command functioned in the superior part
15 of the chain of command. I just remind you, he was just a simple private.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until now, the question was about principles,
17 whether orders had to be carried out. As far as I understand, that is the
18 basics of every military structure. So I don't know whether it greatly
19 assists the Chamber to establish here that, as a principle, orders should
20 be carried out.
21 Mr. Mundis, if you are interested in really what happened, then
22 ask the witness and try to find out the basis of his knowledge, if not,
23 move to your next subject.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, that was the one and only question
25 with respect to that subject, so I will move on.
1 Q. Witness, were you aware of anyone in your platoon being
2 disciplined for failing to follow an order?
3 A. My platoon and I personally carried out orders, and there was no
4 need for any of us to be disciplined.
5 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in the army on the front
6 lines from the September 1992 through August 1994, do you know or did you
7 hear of any soldiers in your company being disciplined for failing to
8 follow an order?
9 A. I do not know of a single incident where someone was disciplined
10 for failing to carry out an order.
11 Q. Does that apply just to your company or to the
12 Sarajevo Romanija Corps as a whole?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object on the
14 same basis.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was whether you ever heard about
16 anyone to be disciplined. Did you -- your answer until now was that you
17 never heard of such a disciplinary action. Is your answer limited to your
18 own company or did you not hear on disciplinary action in general?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Beyond my own unit, I have no
20 information nor was I able to obtain any information. But as I understood
21 the Prosecutor, this referred to failure to carry out orders. Some men
22 were disciplined, for example, for not turning up on their shifts on time
23 to relieve the sentries --
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I just stop you. So you are telling us that you
25 know about disciplinary action taken against individuals, but not because
1 they did not obey orders; is that correct? Yes -- perhaps I am not quite
2 clear. I mean, not turning up for your shift might be disobedience as
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only for matters that I mentioned
5 because they were late for their shifts. There were men who went home to
6 take a bath and then instead of going to the line to take their shifts,
7 they stayed at home, they lingered. And they had to explain whether they
8 had been sick or had any problems and otherwise they would have to be
10 JUDGE ORIE: Not for any other kind of disobedience?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS:
14 Q. Witness DP9, a few moments ago --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,
16 but we have to ask for absolute accuracy here. The origin of the question
17 that Mr. Mundis asked was about the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, but it isn't
18 very clear in any case in the transcript whether the answer of the witness
19 concentrated on what he knew or not. I believe this has to be cleared up.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness told us about what the kind of
21 disciplinary action he knew about and I did understand your answer that
22 you did not hear from -- of any other disciplinary action taken for not
23 obeying any orders; is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. Witness DP9, were you aware of any individuals during the period
3 from September 1992 through August 1994 who were disciplined for smuggling
5 A. I don't know of such cases in my unit for disciplinary measures,
6 or punishments because of smuggling.
7 Q. You never heard of any incidents in which anyone was disciplined
8 for smuggling cigarettes or selling cigarettes to the ABiH forces?
9 A. We didn't even have enough cigarettes for ourselves, so I don't
10 believe in such a possibility for this area where I was. I don't know
11 anything about it.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I
13 would like the witness to be shown a document. I have copies.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please assist Mr. Usher.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Is there a number for this document?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't know
17 what document this is. Is this a document that was submitted to us
18 beforehand, according to the Rule or I don't know. We were not informed
19 about this and, therefore, no comment.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what the document is, perhaps not
21 explain anything in the presence of the witness. Let me just have a look
22 at it.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I ask for a
24 translation in the language of the Tribunal which I propose to be French
25 so that I can concentrate on it completely.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The document is translated into English and until now
2 the Defence has shown to have a sufficient knowledge of the English
3 language to read documents in English. Perhaps we should first ask the
4 witness to take off his headphones. May I ask you to take them off.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You put some questions to the -- in respect of
7 where this document came from and I think we should now first give an
8 opportunity to the Prosecution to explain their position in respect of
9 this document and then you may respond.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the document that you now have before
11 you is a document which came up in a routine search of the Prosecution
12 evidence that we have in our evidence vault, and there are numerous
13 references to a person who has the same name as this witness, and this
14 person was apparently prosecuted or at least charged for smuggling a
15 rather high volume of cigarettes to forces of the ABiH.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. MUNDIS: It is unclear, Mr. President, if in fact the person
18 named is this witness, but I would like to be able to put those questions
19 to him with the benefit of him referring to a document that has, as I
20 said, numerous references to a person with the same name.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I now see that apart from
22 having the document in the English language, there is also a translation,
23 as far as I can see, in B/C/S. Could you --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- Perhaps one additional question. Do you know
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 where this document comes from? Do we know what the source is?
2 MR. MUNDIS: We are looking for that at the moment, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please respond, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise,
5 Mr. President, I was just conferring. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please, you may respond to --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President.
8 But, Mr. President, what I am interested in knowing is since when has the
9 Prosecution had this document and knew they were going to produce it
10 today? Because I can see that there are necessary copies, which is fine,
11 but we were not informed of this. And we believe that this is rather
12 surprising and I didn't even have time to read it in any language
13 whatsoever in either English, French or in Serbian. And the accused has
14 not been able to read it either. So what we can do is just go on
15 blind-folded. I can put down my headset. We have to confer. We have to
16 talk. How can we go on further. How can we advance. Looking at this
17 document with about 20 pages, with the tables, indicators. I don't know
18 whether this is proper or in accordance with what we mentioned earlier. I
19 am just wondering.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we briefly respond a couple of points
22 raised by Defence counsel. In the first place, and we are still
23 attempting to ascertain exactly where this document -- where the
24 Prosecution obtained this document, but in the first place, the
25 Prosecution is not aware of any rule that requires us to disclose
1 documents or information in our possession with respect to cross-examining
2 the witness. Our recollection is in instances where Defence
3 cross-examined Prosecution witnesses with documents that there was no
4 notice to the Prosecution that that would be the case --
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you to respond to that,
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So the position of the Prosecution is that if
7 something is a document they've used in cross-examination, that has no
8 obligation to give notice in advance to the other party, and that the
9 Defence did the same while cross-examine the Prosecution witnesses.
10 Could you please respond to that, first.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not sure
12 that we can do that now. Moreover, since the -- Mr. Ierace has asked to
13 leave the courtroom in order to check on some evidence, and I believe that
14 the equality of arms demands that when we are asked for something,
15 especially since we know this is a document that we wouldn't have had time
16 to read. If this was just a page, then we can do it during the session,
17 but --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's be quite clear. You based
19 your objection upon what you seemed to suggest to be a Rule, that the
20 Prosecution was under an obligation to give advance and notice -- to give
21 notice in advance of the use of this document in cross-examination.
22 The issue was -- and that's a totally different issue. If you
23 say, "well we do not object, but we need time to read," of course that is
24 a different matter. And of course, you should be given time to read the
25 document and we will come to that soon. But I first want to find out
1 exactly what is the legal basis, the legal procedural basis of your
2 objection. Is it your view that a party should give notice in advance
3 that they will use a certain document in cross-examination or is that your
4 position? And the second question, is this what the Defence practiced
5 during the Prosecution case?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President,
7 article 20, 21, 24(E) the time has to be given to the accused to
8 prepare his defence. This also requires time to respond during
9 cross-examination. Now, how do you want me to prepare seriously, how can
10 I prepare my questions when, one, when this is an ambush. I haven't had
11 time to ask -- to speak to General Galic. Two, I haven't had time to look
12 at the text and three, the translation of B/C/S to English and French
13 which I will never have any way. This means, I believe, that the right of
14 the Defence has been offended. This is as far as the text are concerned.
15 But this is completely contrary to the equality of arms principle. This
16 is not just been offended, this principle has been completely destroyed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no decision has yet been taken on what to do
18 with the document. So I -- perhaps it would be wise that we adjourn for
19 20 minutes. Would there be a possibility for General Galic to read the
20 document in the B/C/S version during the break and perhaps we would need
21 some more time -- yes, Mr. Mundis.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I just have two things. First, I have
23 been able to locate where the Prosecution obtained this document, which is
24 from the RS Ministry of Defence archives in the first instance. Secondly,
25 if it could be of assistance to either the Chamber or the Defence I do
1 have one English copy and one B/C/S copy of this document with the
2 witness's name or the name of the person -- the person with the same name
3 as the witness highlighted which should speed up the process --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps is the whole document of relevance to
5 you or will you concentrate on certain parts?
6 MR. MUNDIS: I would certainly concentrate on certain parts and I
7 remind the Defence and the Chamber, of course, that we at this point don't
8 know if the person referred to in the document is the witness. And
9 finally, Mr. President, if I may, I just call to your attention the first
10 page of the document, the cover page. This document was prepared by an
11 individual who is also on the Defence witness list. Thank you,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let me just confer with my colleagues.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would there be a possibility for Defence
16 counsel to confer with General Galic? Does this need any specific
17 measures or -- Madam Registrar, do you know whether --
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that there would be a possibility to
20 confer with General Galic during the break. Perhaps we make the break a
21 bit longer than usual for that reason. If this would not be possible, I
22 would like to be informed right away, even during the break. We will
23 adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that you, Mr. Ierace, wanted to
2 address the Chamber. Please proceed.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. The subject matter is the
4 issue which troubled the Defence --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I apologise.
6 We have to respect things and do them in an order. Before Mr. Ierace can
7 take the floor, I believe that you told us that you would authorise us to
8 find out on which basis you decided to change your jurisprudence and
9 change the rights that the parties have. I believe this is what I
10 understood. If this is not the case, I will apologise.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What case law are you referring to -- about
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We -- if you remember,
14 Mr. President, when we intervened once you told us that from now on your
15 Chamber will not admit that anyone who hasn't been present at the
16 examination-in-chief would go on about cross-examination. Now, what I
17 want to know is: Why are you changing this now, changing the positions of
18 the parties? If Mr. Ierace takes the floor, although he wasn't there
19 earlier, we have to know what really our rights are and that they are
20 protected and respected. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will respond to you in two ways,
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. First of all, I take it that Mr. Ierace is not taking
23 over cross-examination, but that he wants to address the Chamber. I did
24 not know yet on what issue, and he was just about to explain what it was,
25 that is number one. Then, although I cannot give you a decision by the
1 Chamber on your request to explain the change in case law. I can tell
2 you, however, that what has happened is that until now the Chamber has
3 allowed the Defence to cross-examine witnesses that has happened on two
4 occasions. The last occasion was on day 115. So the Defence has been
5 allowed to cross-examine a witness even when they were not present during
6 the examination-in-chief.
7 Upon a repeated establishment that cross-examining counsel was not
8 aware of what had happened during the examination-in-chief, I indicated
9 under these circumstances, although I did not specifically refer to these
10 circumstances, that the Chamber would not allow the Defence to
11 cross-examine witnesses if they would not have been present during the
12 examination-in-chief, and then allowed even at that very moment you to
13 continue, although not on a specific line of questioning. So I am not
14 answering to your question whether there was a change in jurisprudence. I
15 am just referring to what has happened in the Defence case. At this
16 moment Mr. Ierace is not taking over cross-examination. So in that
17 respect, I would say there was not a deviation in whatever way of the line
18 of Defence because I take it, Mr. Mundis, that you will continue to
19 cross-examine the witness at a later stage.
20 And I would give Mr. Ierace now the opportunity to address the
21 issue he wanted to address.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the issue which arose just before the
23 break essentially involved the two things. The disclosure by the
24 Prosecution of material that it wished to use as evidence at trial; and
25 secondly, what notice should be given to the Defence of our intention to
1 use material in cross-examination. In relation to the first issue, it
2 seems to me that Rule 66(B) applies of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence
3 that is, the obligations of the Prosecutor pursuant to reciprocal
4 disclosure. The application of that Rule to this situation leads me to
5 the following observations: It is not until the Prosecution is informed
6 of the identity of a Defence witness and a reasonable 65 ter summary of
7 facts to which that witness will testify, that the Prosecution is able to
8 make an assessment or judgment as to what material it possesses which it
9 may use during cross-examination, and, therefore, it seems to me, having
10 regard to the words of the Rule, it is obliged to disclose to the Defence.
11 Practically speaking, given the late notification to the
12 Prosecution of sufficient witness details to enable a search to be done,
13 and by that I mean, name, date of birth, and father's name, it has often
14 not been until the last minute that we have identified relevant material.
15 I can give an example in relation to this witness. In the last two hours
16 we have identified some photographs which have not been disclosed to the
17 Defence because up until the notification made to us, the issues that this
18 witness would testify to, that material was not caught by Rule 66(B).
19 This morning we determined that there are some photographs in our
20 possession that are germane to cross-examination.
21 Essentially, Mr. President, I want to say this: It seems to me
22 that in applying Rule 66(B) to material that the Prosecution proposes to
23 use in cross-examination of Defence witnesses, the Prosecution should
24 disclose that material to the Defence as soon as it has identified it as
25 such, that is, as material it may use in cross-examination. Since that
1 may not happen, and indeed probably won't happen until a day or so before
2 the witness is called, it may well be that the Defence will not have that
3 material disclosed to it with as much time as it would prefer.
4 At least, in most cases, I expect that we will be able to disclose
5 a B/C/S copy because usually the documentary material is, in fact, in
6 B/C/S in its original language, perhaps with a rough English translation.
7 So, Mr. President, that is why I rise to my feet. We have touched upon a
8 policy issue for the rest of the Defence case. And I want to assist the
9 Trial Chamber by identifying that issue, reciprocal disclosure and what
10 the Prosecution proposes to do by way of applying it. And I would be
11 grateful for any guidance from the Trial Chamber in relation to that
12 proposed policy by the Prosecution.
13 That leaves us with the situation of the photographs for this
14 witness. We don't have -- we only have one copy. I can tell you that
15 these photographs were only produced -- were only printed in the last two
16 hours or so, and I am happy for the Defence to look at them and for us to
17 explain briefly the relevance of them, if that would assist. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now have two issues. The first is an issue
19 of a general procedural nature on which lead counsel for the Prosecution
20 was allowed to express himself. So that is about disclosure about whether
21 notice should be given in advance to the Defence. The second issue that
22 since the document the Prosecution intended to use before the break has
23 been given to the Defence, whether there are any observations to be made
24 in respect of the use of that document, and whether the Defence has had
25 enough time to read that document and specifically those parts that relate
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to the present witness.
2 Is it you, Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin who is going to
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't have
5 time to think about it because sometimes I need some time to think. But
6 we were able to find out in the few minutes that we were given some things
7 which I believe would allow us to say, to state that everything that is
8 happening here now is a terrible waste of time, and the responsibility for
9 this will never be the Defence's. There is a very simple way of finding
10 out whether this person is involved in this. And this is to ask him,
11 which comes from his testimony, if he was ever a soldier in the Ilijas
12 Brigade. This document which is in the hands of the Prosecution, and
13 written in English, says that these are facts relating to soldiers who
14 found themselves in a battalion which is not the battalion, not concerned,
15 in a company, not company concerned, and so on, in a location which is by
16 road 100 kilometres from this place, as the crow flies 50 kilometres from
17 the location where this person spends -- spent the whole war.
18 I believe there is a problem of harmony more or less because the
19 text of the documents since I was able to more or less read both documents
20 in two languages is that these people moved cigarette packages from Ilijas
21 to another house somewhere which I don't know anything about. Now, but in
22 the text that I was able to see, the first thing before raising this kind
23 of problem is to find out if this person had ever gone to Ilijas and this
24 question, after it is asked, then one should proceed. And I don't
25 understand at all why we didn't first ask the question if this person was
1 ever a soldier in Ilijas when he had stated that he stayed the whole war
2 in Dobrinja, which is apart 100 kilometre by road from this position. If
3 this question was asked and if this person tells us that he never was a
4 soldier in the trenches of Ilijas which seems to be the most logical
5 procedure to do, if he says, Mr. President no, I stayed in Dobrinja the
6 whole time. Then we can stop this discussion, we wasted an awful lot of
7 time, and I didn't have time to have lunch during the break.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that the Prosecution may put some
10 questions to the witness not necessarily the one, but of course it is a
11 very good suggestion to ask the witness about places, et cetera. And did
12 I also notice, Mr. Mundis, you saying that the person had been prosecuted,
13 at least charged with certain offences and I don't know whether the
14 document would support that, but you may ask a few questions to the
15 witness and we will keep a close eye on what happens and whether it is of
16 any use to continue putting questions.
17 But I immediately say it is not as rigid as suggested by the
18 Defence, but certainly within certain limits.
19 Mr. Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before the
21 witness comes in, I would like to propose for purely logical reasons, that
22 it would be -- perhaps you haven't read the text -- but considering that
23 this text was written referring to the situation in Ilijas, the brigade
24 which is located some 50 kilometres from Dobrinja, I would suggest that he
25 should be asked the question to find out if physically he was a soldier
1 there, physically, because if he was not, then we believe that ask any
2 questions to find out whether he was -- about his morale, whether he was
3 prosecuted or charged with that, that would be a waste of time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: As I decided before, as I gave the decision of the
5 Chamber that it would not be as rigid, let me just, without suggesting
6 anything at all, if for example the place would be wrongly stated, then,
7 of course there would be other reasons to find out. But to a limited
8 extent, the Prosecution is allowed to put questions to the witness.
9 Please, Mr. Usher, escort the witness into the courtroom.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. DP9.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise that you had to wait for such a long
14 time, but we could not decide in another way.
15 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could with your indulgence ask
17 that the witness take the headphones off because I think we need to
18 clarify one additional point that was just raised by the Defence as the
19 witness was coming into the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you take your headphones off. Yes. Thank you.
21 Please do so.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, reading the document that I believe
23 everyone has before us there is reference to the municipality that
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin referred to, however, the Prosecution would contend that
25 that refers to the number one which is on the previous page in the English
1 translation referring to different individuals. With respect to the
2 information contained in paragraph two of page 8, there does not seem to
3 be very quickly looking at this information --
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just draw your attention in the English
5 translation, page 8 where it says under 2, where it starts with a lot of
6 names, and then it says "all reserve soldiers --"
7 MR. MUNDIS: I see that Mr. President, but it is unclear from the
8 remaining text if the events described in those following paragraphs
9 occurred in that municipality.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say -- but at least, as I told you
11 before, to a limited extent you will be allowed to put questions to the
12 witness and we will see how it develops and whether it is relevant or not.
13 But the Defence has indicated some problems, at least that might arise.
14 We cannot now at this very moment prelude on your cross-examination. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since
16 Mr. Mundis mentioned this in a language which I have before me, this is
17 bottom of page 8, and what I can read, it seems to be combat positions.
18 Now, when we are talking about Ilijas in combat positions, we can assume
19 that this whole problem is in --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the problem seems to be clear. Of
21 course, we cannot start to discuss all the details of what should come out
22 or not come out from the testimony of the witness. So we will keep a
23 close eye on it, and Mr. Mundis, please proceed, and keep in mind whatever
24 has been said both by the Defence and by the Chamber.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. If the witness could put
1 his headphones.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Witness DP9, at any time during the period from September 1992
5 through August 1994 were you ever in the Ilijas Brigade?
6 A. No, I was never in the Ilijas Brigade. That's quite a different
8 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Borislav Glavocevic?
9 A. No, I have never heard of that name?
10 Q. Thank you, Witness.
11 Witness, there seems to be some confusion earlier about the
12 precise brigade that you were assigned to. Is it possible that your
13 platoon fell under the responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
15 A. I don't know exactly what brigade it was. It is possible that it
16 was the Sarajevo Brigade. However, I am certain that I was a member of
17 the 1st Infantry Battalion gravitating toward the Sarajevo Romanija Corps
18 area. However, I am not sure of the name of the brigade. I apologise for
20 Q. Have you ever heard of an individual by the name of
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Veljko Stojanovic?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Was he in fact the commander of the brigade to which you were
25 A. I think he was.
1 Q. Are you aware of any sniper platoons in the brigade that was
2 commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Stojanovic?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order -- I
4 apologise. But because of the situation which is happening, I have had
5 to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, do we have to ask the witness to take
7 his headphones off?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not necessarily.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because of the situation which
11 occurred, and I had to look at these texts extremely quickly in both
12 languages, and since I see that Mr. Mundis seems to be changing the
13 subject, am I now to focus on other points in these two texts, both in
14 Serbian and in English, or is this now -- was this by pure chance that
15 this -- we wasted so much time on this incident?
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... any further
17 cross-examination in relation to this document?
18 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Please proceed.
20 MR. MUNDIS:
21 Q. Let me ask the question once again, Witness: Are you aware of any
22 sniper platoons in the brigade that was commanded by
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Stojanovic?
24 A. No, no, I am not.
25 Q. Have you ever heard of a platoon commander by the name of
1 Andzeljko Kozomara?
2 A. No, I don't know a man of that name.
3 Q. Witness, are you aware of any sniper units on the VRS side of the
4 confrontation lines in Dobrinja that were active from September 1992
5 through August 1994?
6 A. I don't know that such units exist in armies.
7 Q. Have you -- did you ever see in the period from September 1992
8 through August 1994 any --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Translation, interpretation.
12 Translation on line 7320 -- 73.20.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please repeat your answer. You were
14 asked whether you were aware of any sniper units on the VRS side of the
15 confrontation lines in Dobrinja that were active from September 1992
16 through August 1994. Could you please repeat your answer to that
17 question, which was perhaps not clear in translation.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, armies in general
19 or at least the armies that were involved in that conflict, I do not know
20 that there were any units armed purely with that kind of weapon, as units.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer. Please proceed,
22 Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Witness, prior to the war, did you do a period of compulsory
25 service in the JNA?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you trained in the infantry during the time you were in the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you aware or were you aware when you were in the JNA that that
6 military force conducted specialised sniper training for infantry
8 A. No.
9 Q. During the time between September 1992 and August 1994 in the
10 areas that your platoon was operating, did you at any time see any SRK
11 soldier carrying a sniper rifle?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr.
13 President --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no. I withdraw. Yes. I
16 think this should be put as question, well, I am going to say this,
17 Mr. President, on the same basis, one should know whether the witness has
18 the capacity, ability, factual ability to know what the sniper rifle is.
19 That would be the most important question to ask.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Didn't the witness refer himself to when asked about
21 the existence of sniper units, that he was referring to that kind of
22 weapons which suggests that at least he has an idea of what it is.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] He said they didn't have any,
24 but perhaps if we could find out if he was able to recognise them as such.
25 JUDGE ORIE: This is an interference. If the witness says that he
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 did not know whether units with such a kind of weapon exists, that means
2 that the witness at least has for himself, an idea of what type of weapon
3 it is. So, therefore, it was not necessary to interfere in the
5 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, I repeat the question: During the time period between
8 September 1992 and August 1994 in the areas that your platoon was
9 operating, did you at any time see any SRK soldier carrying a sniper
11 A. I know what a sniper weapon is. In the command in Soska there
12 were military snipers -- there were military snipers in the rifle racks
13 and I saw a piece that where units were threatened by enemy fire, they
14 could ask for that so that they could observe the enemy. In the area
15 where I was we didn't need this because there was a block of buildings
16 across the road so such a weapon would have served no purpose where I was
18 Q. Witness, in response to the last question you testified about the
19 command in Soska I believe you said; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where is Soska?
22 A. Soska is actually the name for a rifle rack. It is a place where
23 weapons are stored which are not being used at the moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is just to say, and I
1 would ask for more accuracy, I believe that the interpretation in Serbian
2 was: "What is Soska" and not where it is. So perhaps the witness can
3 answer the correct question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question put to you was: Where is Soska? Can
5 you answer that question?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are rifle racks found in
7 places where weapons are stored.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that Soska is a "thing,"
9 rather than a geographic place; is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. So, Witness, you have seen sniper rifles stored in Soska rifle
14 racks; is that your testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall specifically where you saw these rifle racks with
17 sniper rifles in them?
18 A. The rifle rack, there was one in the command in the corridor where
19 the on-duty person was.
20 Q. During which time period do you recall seeing this rifle rack with
21 sniper rifles in it, in this command building?
22 A. I think this was during the time period that we have been
23 discussing here.
24 Q. Do you recall seeing rifle racks containing sniper rifles in any
25 other buildings during this time period?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Witness, during the time that your platoon was in Dobrinja, again,
3 September 1992 through August 1994, were the weapons that you and your
4 fellow soldiers used provided to you or were they personal weapons or was
5 it a combination of both?
6 A. My platoon and I had our personal weapons in that period.
7 Q. Were any of these personal weapons hunting rifles?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What kind of personal weapons did you and your platoon have?
10 A. These were not privately owned weapons. They were weapons
11 belonging to the Army of Republika Srpska. And these were automatic and
12 semi-automatic weapons, rifles.
13 Q. Did you ever see anyone in the area of Dobrinja on your side of
14 the confrontation lines with hunting rifles or hunting rifles with scopes
15 on them?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Since we are talking about
19 hunting rifles here, it might be a good idea to perhaps ask about a
20 specific date in relation to what we know about other information from
21 other witnesses. I would have wanted the time of the question to be more
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you put it in a time context, Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS:
25 Q. Witness DP9, during the period of September 1992 through August
1 1994, did you ever see anyone in the area of Dobrinja on your side of the
2 confrontation lines with hunting rifles or hunting rifles with scopes on
4 A. No. No, I didn't.
5 Q. During the period, Witness, from September 1992 through August
6 1994 did your platoon ever receive any orders from the platoon commander
7 concerning the shooting of civilians on the other side of the
8 confrontation line?
9 A. We could open fire only at the orders of our superiors and only
10 when our lives were threatened. Civilians never did this, they never
11 threatened anyone. I know that an order was brought to our positions
12 telling us to pay attention to the people digging the trenches who have
13 been brought there by force and some of whom were civilians. And when
14 leaving the area controlled by the Muslims we had to be careful not to
15 open fire.
16 Q. Witness, you just made reference to "leaving the area controlled
17 by the Muslims." Which areas are you referring to?
18 A. When I was leaving the Dobrinja area or most of the town,
19 Alipasino and other parts of the town, fell under the control of units
20 called the Green Berets. Later they were called the
21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was the area I referred to.
22 Q. Witness, you said: "When leaving these areas we had to be careful
23 not to open fire." Are you saying that as you left these Muslim
24 controlled areas, you had your weapons with you?
25 A. I didn't say anything like that, that I opened fire when I was
1 leaving. I was not allowed to take weapons with me.
2 Q. Witness, I am a bit confused. As part of your last -- or your
3 answer on lines 4 through 6, the transcript in English reads: "And when
4 leaving the area controlled by the Muslims, we had to be careful not to
5 open fire."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps, if there would have been a
7 misunderstanding, could you please repeat your answer to the question put
8 to you --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we had to be careful
10 not to shoot at the civilians leaving the area when I was already in the
11 army because there were civilians running along the airport or along the
12 runway or along the river bank and we had to be careful not to confuse
13 these civilians with soldiers. I didn't say anything about opening fire.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, does this clarify the issue
15 sufficiently? Please proceed.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Witness, you made several references in the past few minutes to
18 civilians. During the period September 1992 through August 1994, were you
19 able in the Dobrinja area to distinguish between civilians and forces of
20 the ABiH?
21 A. The civilians I saw and who were digging trenches, yes, I could
22 tell them apart from the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina because
23 they were not wearing uniforms. They were not armed. And they were
24 standing in open spaces. They were not protected by tools. I believe
25 that no member of the Muslim units would have behaved like that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I am looking at the clock. How much time
2 would you still need?
3 MR. MUNDIS: I have got five or six additional areas to cover, Mr.
4 President. I am clearly not going to be even --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do understand that. But I will do the usual --
6 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, if I could get a time score from the Bench, that
7 would be very helpful in times of preparation for today.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I will give it to you but it will be communicated to
9 you this afternoon, and of course, the Defence will be informed about the
10 time allocated.
11 Mr. DP9, unfortunately we cannot finish your examination today.
12 That means that we will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. You should not
13 speak with anyone about the testimony you have given in this court. And
14 we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.
15 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, since you or as a matter of fact,
19 Mr. Ierace raised an issue of photographs before, will they be
20 communicated to the Defence?
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will certainly show the colour
22 photo -- the colour photographs to my learned colleagues immediately that
23 we finish this afternoon, and disclose or provide copies, at least in
24 black and white, to the Defence this afternoon as well by placing them in
25 their locker.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that it either becomes clear by the
2 photographs or by your explanation what this exercise is about?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just
6 allow myself to say that tomorrow morning I would like to address the
7 Chamber very briefly just to state the position of the Defence in
8 reference to certain incidents which would have been avoided with a little
9 bit of good sense. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then hear from you tomorrow morning.
11 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
13 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
14 the 30th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.