Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14928

1 Monday, 4 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 The Chamber has considered to give some more guidance on

10 procedural matters to the parties. We will do that, not today, but we

11 prepared a -- we are preparing some more guidance in respect of several

12 aspects. Such, for example, I will just give an example is that we give

13 Defence guidance as to whether they have to specify what documents will

14 have to be -- whether they have to indicate through which witness they

15 will introduce documents, also the specific documents and not just the

16 list in respect of a number of witnesses.

17 But you will have to wait for one or two more days. Yes,

18 Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am in the process of drafting a

20 motion in respect of the oral order that was handed down by the Trial

21 Chamber on the 30th of October, last Tuesday. That's the oral order that

22 concerned the banking system.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. IERACE: If the guidelines which have been prepared by the

25 Trial Chamber at the moment will touch upon time allowed for

Page 14929

1 cross-examination, then I can do one of two things. I can either ensure

2 that that is indeed filed tomorrow, if it is of any assistance,

3 alternatively, wait until those guidelines are given and then we can

4 consider our position.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that the -- let me just --

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do not expect any further guidance as to the

8 banking system, just time to be used by the parties. So if you intend to

9 submit to the Chamber further thoughts in this respect, you perhaps better

10 not wait. Yes.

11 Then I think that we could continue with the examination of the

12 witness. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

13 courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: You still can hear me in a language you can

16 understand?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

21 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony. And then,

22 Mr. Stamp, please continue the cross-examination of the witness.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 WITNESS: IZO GOLIC [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 14930

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

2 Q. While you were attached to the 120-millimetre mortar crew in

3 Sarajevo, were there any other mortar or artillery units that were

4 attached to your brigade?

5 A. Within the brigade, there was also the Sokolac, the Sokolac mortar

6 battery. So that means that there were three battalions, the Rogatica

7 battalion, and my battery, the Sokolac one, and I think also the Pijesak

8 one, it didn't have a separate battery.

9 Q. Did the Sokolac battalion have mortars or artillery weapons?

10 A. Beginning, there were 120-millimetre mortars, the same battery,

11 and on -- upon the transferred to Petrovici, they also got some mountain

12 cannons, after war production, I don't know what the type was, I think 48

13 or something. I am not sure.

14 Q. Were there any batteries of 76-millimetre field guns?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where was this?

17 A. I didn't understand the question.

18 Q. Where was the battery of 76-millimetre field guns located?

19 A. It was located behind these two 120-millimetre mortar batteries.

20 Q. When you say "behind," you mean to the south of the 120-millimetre

21 batteries at Petrovici?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And were each -- well, were there 82-millimetre mortars assigned

24 to each battalion?

25 A. I don't think so. We didn't have 82-millimetre. Only later,

Page 14931

1 three mortars came so just before we went to Petrovici. But within the

2 companies, each company had two, that is, one 60-millimetre mortar.

3 Q. You said that among your targets -- or is it your evidence -- may

4 I withdraw that. Is it your evidence that while you were at Ivanici among

5 your targets were ABiH forces in the vicinity of the Jewish cemetery? Is

6 that your evidence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And also ABiH forces on the other side of the Miljacka river in

9 Grbavica?

10 A. Well, around the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, yes.

11 Q. About how many times, approximately, I can imagine you can only be

12 approximate on this, approximately how many times were you ordered to fire

13 on these ABiH units?

14 A. Well, that was on several occasions. Sometimes fightings went on

15 for two days. I remember that once we refrained from responding, from

16 returning fire. It was a Muslim attack on the Jewish cemetery. And the

17 fighting went on for a whole day. And it was only in the evening that we

18 fired and the attack ceased in the course of the night. And this happened

19 on countless occasions, during every Muslim attack.

20 Q. During those occasions, is it your evidence that they were firing

21 at the ABiH lines?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in a way, the

25 way that the question is asked, I am not sure that it is comprehensible.

Page 14932

1 This "they" puzzles me somewhat in the transcript.

2 MR. STAMP: I will rephrase it. I think I said "you."

3 Q. During those countless occasions is it your evidence that you and

4 your mortar battery were firing at the ABiH lines?

5 A. I cannot recall that as being their lines. Very frequently they

6 would attack in three waves on to our lines which were located alongside

7 the confrontation lines, that is, the barricades dating from the month of

8 April, which means that we were firing on them, on the first front lines

9 that they were attacking. We didn't fire on their defence lines.

10 Q. Is it correct that the distance between the lines, their front

11 line and the Serbian Army, the Bosnian Serb Army front lines in the

12 vicinity of the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, and also in the vicinity of

13 the Jewish cemetery, while you were there were very close, not more than

14 50 metres?

15 A. Yes, in certain places there was just a wall of a building, of the

16 same building, and there were lines that were very close, even under 15

17 metres, less than 15 metres.

18 Q. I take it, therefore, that when you were firing at them in the

19 circumstances, you would have to be very careful that you did not hit your

20 own troops; is that so? You would have to exercise caution not to hit

21 your own troops?

22 A. That is quite normal, and it is -- it was logical that we

23 would -- we would take that into account in order not to hit our own

24 troops.

25 Q. Would you take into consideration the weather conditions as they

Page 14933

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Page 14934

1 were at the time you were ordered to fire?

2 A. Yes. Yes, of course. And the time of the firing, whether it was

3 day or night, particularly at night one had to be very accurate because it

4 is very hard to adjust the sight then to target.

5 Q. Did you receive meteorological reports in respect of the weather

6 conditions?

7 A. In principle, no, no, not to that extent, no. You know, it was

8 war, that's what we had to do. It was war. It wasn't an exercise.

9 Q. How would you take into account the weather conditions?

10 A. Well, according to the situation that we saw, that we observed.

11 Q. Would you make observations and allowances for the wind speed and

12 wind direction?

13 A. That, not so frequently. Personally, I tried to make all the

14 calculations from the schedules and normally once whenever accuracy was

15 needed, I would conduct all the calculations, estimations. But, of

16 course, there were shifts as well. And I said that I was the only one in

17 that battery who had the right military specialty for this. I was the one

18 who was the mortar operator.

19 Q. When you said that you would make all the calculations from the

20 schedules, by "schedules" I take it you mean the mortar firing tables?

21 A. The calculation is done in two ways. We had a professor of maths

22 who was a good -- who could calculate well from the tables. And then

23 there was another way, doing it according to a planchette, which is a

24 French system dating from the end of last century. We didn't have

25 contemporary systems for calculations like American systems using a

Page 14935

1 calculator, using a computer. We couldn't have that amount of accuracy,

2 that degree of accuracy.

3 Q. You said, did you not earlier, that it was normal to fire into the

4 city, notwithstanding that there were civilians living there, in response

5 to enemy fire. When you fired into the city --

6 A. I think that -- I am sorry. I believe that in the confrontation

7 lines there were no civilians. We withdrew our civilians, that's a fact.

8 They were not directly on the demarcation line, on the separation line.

9 And my belief is that in that part where the Muslim targets were, there

10 were no civilians, except if someone was crazy enough or that they had a

11 need to leave the civilians there, to position them there.

12 Q. Very well. Did you fire at any time into the city itself away

13 from the confrontation lines?

14 A. Well, I was talking about the parts from which they fired

15 artillery, where they had intense concentration of their own forces.

16 Q. I take it your answer is yes, you did fire into the city, away

17 from the confrontation lines; is that so?

18 A. Not in that sense. There was the confrontation line and where

19 they use their artillery from. As far as I am concerned, or they were

20 preparing an infantry attack, as it was the case in the settlement, in the

21 emptied school in Buca Potok, as I already mentioned or around the

22 Viktor Bubanj Barracks.

23 Q. Are you now saying that you never fired into the city in any area

24 where there might have been civilians residing, living?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

Page 14936

1 This is much too general question because we don't know where civilians

2 could have or could have not resided. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The question may be

4 answered by the witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't fire at civilians.

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. Did you fire into the city, away from the confrontation lines

8 where civilians might have lived at any time?

9 A. I don't think we did.

10 Q. Very well. Was there a requirement that you record the targets

11 that you shot at and whether or not you succeeded in hitting those

12 targets? And when I say "record" I mean record in writing.

13 A. Yes. Particularly later on, because UNPROFOR representatives

14 arrived and we had to have this kind of data and before as well, we had a

15 register, a logbook which is made in every department which fired, and

16 then also on the level of a platoon. Which means that this in this

17 logbook we kept the azimuth of the main direction, the elevation, and

18 other data that is important. Occasionally we didn't have the return

19 information, if it was not a guided firing. I said myself that we

20 ourselves did not determine what the targets were.

21 Q. Very well.

22 A. I would just ask the Chamber if it is possible, this is democratic

23 institution, I would like to address it. I don't know if this is normal

24 for you, this is ordinary for you. But these little papers that

25 Mr. Prosecutor is getting and that contain falsehoods, lies,

Page 14937

1 misinformation that were going around, I believe that this method isn't

2 correct in a democratic institution. Because perhaps then --

3 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "little papers"? I do not see

4 any little papers.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the right-hand side, the

6 gentleman, that is what he did last Friday. All the time he has been have

7 having these pieces of paper in front of him with false names and all

8 this, you know --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from giving your judgment on

10 what is on papers that you have never seen. The Prosecution is working as

11 a team. They can assist each other, and in order not to interrupt

12 unnecessarily, they might communicate, just as I do with the Registry, by

13 means of small notes. May I invite you to answer the questions put to you

14 and not to comment on the way the Prosecution operates.

15 Please proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, last time, two names

17 were confused, when Slavko Aleksic was asked about. There was Vasko's

18 name, another man's name from a completely different part of Sarajevo.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think I instructed you to answer the questions

20 and -- yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP:

24 Q. One question about that, Mr. Golic: Over the last couple of days,

25 have you seen any piece of paper with any falsehoods about you?

Page 14938

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I invited the witness not to comment and

2 not to interfere with the Prosecution operates. I think it would not be

3 of great assistance for the Chamber to ask the witness about pieces of

4 paper of which, at least, as far as I know, he cannot have any knowledge

5 as to what is on these pieces of paper.

6 Please proceed.

7 Or do you have any specific issue you would like to touch upon and

8 then perhaps you better explain that in the absence of the witness.

9 But --

10 MR. STAMP: Well, I did -- he did answer the question I asked.

11 The answer is not on the record.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't finish my answer. I was

13 asked about a chimney. I never said that, and that was also a question

14 from the piece of paper about putting a shell down a chimney stack.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you are speaking about the pieces of

16 paper exchanged by members of the Prosecution team to which you have no

17 access. Is that correct? Then, it is not an issue you would have to

18 comment upon.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, these records that you kept in respect to your firing of the

22 mortars, how long were you required to keep them?

23 A. Well, they were not kept for very long, these records. They were

24 in some -- this was a logbook from the former JNA and sometimes it was for

25 myself and the battery that I kept it.

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Page 14940

1 Q. Was there a requirement that you keep a record of the shots that

2 you fired for the purposes of examination or investigation by the

3 artillery commander?

4 A. Yes. I know I remember once there was an investigation,

5 Mr. Grajic came, so fortunately we had everything. It was handed over to

6 him. He was the chief of artillery and he asked us to hand this over to

7 him.

8 Q. Was there any requirement that you provide these records to the

9 artillery commander or any superior officer on a regular basis?

10 A. To the battery commander, on the whole.

11 Q. Did you --

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. The investigation that you spoke of in which you had to deliver

15 the records to the artillery commander, when was that investigation? You

16 recall the month?

17 A. I think it was in June. A mortar shell fell behind our lines and

18 that matter was investigated.

19 Q. And I take it that is June 1992?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. When you say "a mortar shell fell behind your lines" were there

22 any casualties as a result of this mortar shell which fell behind your

23 lines?

24 A. I think that one of our men was slightly wounded.

25 Q. Do you know of any other investigations conducted by your

Page 14941

1 artillery commander or any superior officer of your brigade in respect to

2 misfiring of mortars or possible misfiring of mortars?

3 A. No, I am not aware of any such investigations.

4 Q. You indicated -- withdrawn.

5 Is it your evidence that from your vantage points on the prominent

6 positions at Vraca you could see the front lines at Grbavica?

7 A. I don't think so. You couldn't see the demarcation line in the

8 entire area.

9 Q. Could you see the buildings in Grbavica in the area of the front

10 lines from Vraca?

11 A. Yes, on the whole, you could.

12 Q. And of course from Vraca you could make out the height of these

13 buildings?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How often were you told by superiors not to fire at civilians and

16 to obey the Geneva Conventions?

17 A. As far as the battery is concerned, Mr. Grajic, the artillery

18 chief, usually did this. And I remember he lined up both batteries and

19 then read out those orders, perhaps we didn't even have the occasion to

20 act contrary to these instructions.

21 Q. How often were you told this?

22 A. Maybe every 10 to 15 days. It depended on the need. There was

23 other information regarding the situation at the front, and above all

24 regarding the situation in Rogatica, where we came from.

25 Q. Very well. In the months while you were posted to Sarajevo did

Page 14942

1 you receive leave from duty occasionally?

2 A. Yes. We spent 40 days there at the most without having leave, but

3 the shifts took place every seven days, usually.

4 Q. And during some of those times of leave did you return to

5 Rogatica?

6 A. Well, yes. We went home.

7 Q. Did you return there on or around the 22nd to the 25th of May,

8 1992?

9 A. I couldn't say right now. Sometimes I regret not having kept a

10 diary, that errors are made.

11 Q. Did you take part in an attack by the Bosnian Serb Army in

12 Rogatica in May, 1992?

13 A. No --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to object. This

15 doesn't seem to be within the territorial framework and is outside of the

16 chronological scope which is referred to in the indictment.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, can you respond or should we ask the

18 witness to leave?

19 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be allowed to step out, just for a

20 moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please ask the witness to leave the

22 courtroom.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: The question posed and just a few other questions I

Page 14943

1 might have, subsequent to that question, are not questions aimed to elicit

2 information, generally speaking, about events outside of the time or area

3 of the indictment but elicit information about the conduct of the witness

4 himself and go to the credibility of the witness and might assist the

5 court in evaluating the evidence which the witness gives. But they are

6 not generally about or the purpose is not to elicit information outside

7 but about the conduct of this witness in particular.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain to us why this specific subject

10 would cast a -- would assist the Chamber in assessing the credibility of

11 the witness?

12 MR. STAMP: The questions would tend or seek to elicit information

13 about whether or not he was involved in shelling of other areas and what

14 were the consequences of those shellings, if so.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And what do you mean, following orders or not

16 following orders or? It is still not clear to me whether how --

17 MR. STAMP: The witness has testified that he has not heard of any

18 situation in which the RS Army was involved in any breach of military

19 discipline or any breach of law, military law. I think that is the

20 expression he used or was used by counsel when counsel asked the question.

21 The questions go to his credibility about whether he or his units were

22 present and involved in various breaches of military law, contrary to his

23 testimony.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 14944

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you could

2 listen to us with regard to information that the Prosecution has provided?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. You objected --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... respond. Please

6 do so.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,

8 there are two things. First of all, the place mentioned by the

9 Prosecution is very far from Sarajevo and has absolutely nothing to do

10 with Sarajevo. It is not even certain that at the time it was within the

11 SRK, that's the first thing. The second thing is that even if

12 such-and-such a person may have done, committed acts before the period,

13 this has nothing to do, and we have already had this problem with a zone,

14 an area to the north of Sarajevo, the area of Breza, and I am appealing to

15 the jurisprudence of your Chamber.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is that --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With regard to the previous

18 decisions of your Chamber

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... testify whether

20 the answer given previously is credible, and if he would establish that

21 the witness himself participated in such violations, as far as I

22 understand, then you would say the answer is not credible. To this

23 limited extent, but really to this limited extent, we will allow you these

24 questions.

25 MR. STAMP: Very well.

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Page 14946

1 [The witness entered court]

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. STAMP:

4 Q. Mr. Golic, did you participate in an attack by the

5 Bosnian Serb Army in Rogatica in May 1992?

6 A. I did not participate in an attack. At the time I don't think

7 that the conflicts had even started. It wasn't until the 15th of May that

8 there was the first casualty. When we went there, we didn't join any kind

9 of formations. We quite simply rested at home. I didn't participate, for

10 sure.

11 Q. Did you -- were you present at any time in 1992 when Bosnian Serb

12 military units were involved in fighting in Rogatica?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... allowed you your

15 objection, and I think the answer of the witness that he rested at home at

16 that time should make you move to your next subject, please.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. Was your -- I beg your pardon.

19 Was your unit involved in the attack on Gorazde in the summer of

20 1994?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the same

22 objection. The same objection. I am expressing this objection as a

23 chiasmus.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained, unless you would --

Page 14947

1 please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to take advantage

4 of this opportunity to find out how much time the Prosecution has because

5 we have said that it would take half an hour and I think this time has

6 been used up already.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, that is, could you give us an

8 indication?

9 MR. STAMP: There are a few areas in which I would like to explore

10 more comprehensively. But having regard to the time limit, I will try to

11 complete this cross-examination very shortly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what means "very shortly" because half an

13 hour was more than half an hour as well. Five minutes?

14 MR. STAMP: I will do it within five minutes, but --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

16 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire of the Court in respect of the

17 previous ruling, does the ruling mean in effect that no questions can be

18 asked about the presence of the witness at Gorazde, Gorazde, I beg your

19 pardon, or his activities there or that particular question is not

20 permitted?

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I would say that your understanding is right,

22 that the Chamber deems the presence of the witness in Gorazde

23 insufficiently relevant to continue that line of questioning.

24 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

25 Q. You said that as time passed during your sojourn in Sarajevo, you

Page 14948

1 began to receive ammunition, shells, which were not of the best quality or

2 you said words to that effect; is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you able to identify those shells by looking at them?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the

7 question -- well, it's been answered.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. When you fired those shells, would the possible error occur by it

11 overshooting the mark or going short of the mark or deviating left or

12 right of the mark?

13 A. Well, you had to take care with regard to the distance, in

14 general. For example, heavy mortars, M-48 mortars, mortar shells which

15 were about -- which weigh about 17 kilos, if everything was all right in

16 the firing tables, well those sudden problems with these items and you had

17 to use less elevation for a greater range.

18 Q. What were the identifying features of the -- of these shells?

19 A. Well the shape and the weight, the shape of the detonator, the

20 packaging of the detonator. In some cases, the detonators were not

21 inverted so it was -- this is something that could be determined very

22 easily, even at night, without any problems.

23 Q. Now, when you fired these shells whether at day or at night, would

24 you use them in situations where your own troops might have been near to

25 the target? And when I say "near," I say within 100 to 200 metres to the

Page 14949

1 target, would you use those potentially inferior shells?

2 A. I said that later on we didn't shell as frequently, that those

3 shells would arrive when we were in the Petrovici territory and our

4 targets were in general in the areas of Obranici, Colina Kapa, Zlatiste

5 and in the direction of the Jewish cemetery. So our units were only near

6 the Jewish cemetery. Nothing else was within our range.

7 Q. Did the quality of those shells improve over time?

8 A. I have to admit that we would receive all sorts of things. There

9 were shells with foreign production. I remember that there were certain

10 inscriptions in the Hebrew language.

11 Q. Did they improve --

12 A. Sorry. I didn't understand that.

13 Q. Did the quality of the shells improve over time?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. Now, when you were firing --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not for

18 me to decide on this, but if we say five minutes, that means five minutes.

19 There are other witnesses who are waiting and we don't want to have the

20 same problem as last time. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: When I say five minutes, I will keep an eye on the

22 clock, and as the Defence usually did not interfere 30 seconds after such

23 things had happened, I would invite you not to do it as well.

24 Please put your last question to the witness.

25 MR. STAMP:

Page 14950

1 Q. When you had targets which were close to, and that is within 200

2 metres of where your troops, your own troops were positioned, would you

3 use shells that you recognised as inferior or possibly defective to fire

4 at those targets?

5 A. We used what we had at hand at the time.

6 MR. STAMP: Nothing further, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Stamp. Is there any need to

8 re-examine the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Half a dozen questions,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, my first question is to clarify

15 something. Do you remember the sort of train, this wagon, this

16 compartment you described on which a mortar had been mounted?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, I have the impression that in the transcript something

19 has not been entered. You mentioned two men. Where were those two men

20 with regard to that compartment, to that train compartment?

21 A. I am sorry. If I mentioned it, I don't remember mentioning it.

22 Q. Very well. I will put the question differently. Who operated the

23 weapons on that railway truck?

24 A. I didn't say that I saw the men who operated it, and I don't know

25 how this railway truck moved. I said that you couldn't see the locomotive

Page 14951

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Page 14952

1 but that the railway truck, the railway compartment was moving. I think

2 that is what I said.

3 Q. I am asking about the weapons and not about the train compartment

4 itself. Did you see the men who operated the weapons?

5 MR. STAMP: That's asked and answered.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember saying that.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you very much. Another series of questions. You spoke

9 about a lorry that had been adapted to serve as platform from which a

10 weapon could be fired. It was a Fap, 13-ton Fap, do you remember this?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. For the Serbian translation, an F-A-P, a 13-ton Fap.

13 A. Well, it weighs about 13 tons, but the load it can take is 7 tons.

14 That's the size of the motor, 1.300.

15 Q. Did you see the men who operated the weapons on that lorry?

16 A. Well, it was at a distance. We saw them operating, but it was not

17 possible to see how many men there were. You know, someone drove the

18 lorry for sure, too.

19 Q. Just a minute. If you saw them operating, could you tell us

20 whether they were wearing uniforms?

21 MR. STAMP: Before --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: That question, not only appears to be leading, but

24 the objection is primarily that it does not arise out of cross-examination

25 and is not permissible to raise it as re-examination.

Page 14953

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Faps, first, were discussed

2 early in the morning of last Friday during the examination-in-chief. Is

3 there any reason why you could not have put those questions in respect

4 of --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not quite that but in

8 cross-examination there was a series of questions in relation to the

9 lorry, to the way that it came out, the way it went in, and I recall that

10 there was a line of questioning, precise questions, with respect to where

11 the tunnel was located. There was a confusion, it seems to be, with the

12 Kosevo Hospital and the Kosevo tunnel and I wanted to clarify these

13 points. So about the precise location, and also to find out whether one

14 was able to see uniforms on these vehicles.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we will allow you to a very

17 limited extent one or two questions in this respect. Uniforms is not

18 something that came up during the examination-in-chief. Your question was

19 not about -- yes, your question was about uniforms and you justified your

20 questions by primarily telling us about locations. So to a limited

21 extent, you may put one or two questions.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Including the question of uniforms, Mr. President?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one question about uniforms.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 14954

1 Q. Witness, would you please tell the Chamber how the people who were

2 operating these weapons were dressed?

3 A. From Vraca, you couldn't see very well, to be honest. Frequently

4 them and us, we mostly wore the old uniforms of the former army, but we

5 all wore what we had. So neither army was ever fully dressed in uniforms.

6 Q. Thank you. Second question: When you spoke to us about the

7 tunnel, could you give the name of the tunnel again so that we are sure

8 what we are talking about? The question is: Do you know whether in this

9 tunnel there were other weapons apart from the Fap 13/7.

10 MR. STAMP: That again does not arise as to whether there are more

11 weapons or less weapons. That is something the Defence should have

12 explored in chief if it is relevant to his case. That issue did not rise

13 in cross-examination and it cannot be raised in re-examination. We submit

14 that the question is not permissible.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked the witness during

16 examination-in-chief about mobile mortars firing from the tunnel and also

17 other weaponry from that location. So it seems that you were the one who

18 did put questions similar like the one you are putting now to the witness

19 in this respect.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

21 reason why I asked this question is the following: There was a line of

22 questioning asked by Mr. Stamp about the fact, to find out about a tank

23 attack, whether there was attacking a tank with a shell, that was

24 something that could be done. And I wanted to explore certain things on

25 Friday and your Chamber told me that I could not. And now I just wanted

Page 14955

1 to raise a number of questions in relation to these tank attacks,

2 particularly if they are -- they were located where we think they were

3 located, these attacks on tanks.

4 MR. STAMP: If I recall, the evidence from cross-examination, all

5 that was asked was a hypothetical question about whether or not it would

6 be efficient or effective to fire the mortar at the tank. The evidence of

7 the witness was that he received orders in respect of firing at tanks, at

8 least once. Again, therefore, what my friend proposes or the area he

9 proposes to enter could not arise in re-examination. However, if he is

10 permitted to raise these new issues, I would ask for the time to

11 cross-examine him on whatever is brought out by my friend.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained and the matter has been

14 dealt with in examination-in-chief and does not arise from

15 cross-examination.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, a question in relation to what appeared in

19 cross-examination, these logbooks where you noted your targets and the

20 hits, when the representatives of the United Nations came to visit your

21 battery, were you in a position to give them the data that you had in your

22 logbooks? If you can answer with a yes or no, I would appreciate it?

23 A. Not me personally, battery commander, yes with the presence of the

24 chief of artillery, but not me personally.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know if this battery commander had done this in

Page 14956

1 fact?

2 A. I think he did.

3 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard, Witness, of any protests that may

4 have been done with the United Nations force that had to do with your own

5 firing from the battery that you were commander; yes or no?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you hear, Witness, anything whatsoever in relation

8 to hypothetical protestations that may have happened for the same facts,

9 but not in relation to your battery, but in relation to much more

10 important hierarchy, for instance, the battalion; yes or no?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp

12 MR. STAMP: The previous question was outside the scope of

13 re-examination and so is this one. It didn't arise in cross-examination

14 and he is going into new grounds as a protest. As a matter of fact, the

15 issue of the presence of United Nations personnel arose in chief, firstly

16 in chief. If there were matters involving protests that the Defence was

17 interested in, it could have been inquired about at that time. It does

18 not arise from cross-examination. May it please you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it seems that you take the

20 logbooks as a starting point for questions about what could have been done

21 with the information contained in the logbook. Yes, but that's, of

22 course, not -- that would re-open the examination-in-chief as a whole,

23 because let's just assume that everything was noted down in the logbook.

24 So you have put a few questions, although they did not arise directly in

25 the cross-examination. Unless there is a clearer link with the

Page 14957

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Page 14958

1 cross-examination, I would invite you to move to your next subject. May I

2 also remind you that half a dozen is six in my view, but since two or

3 three might be more as well, could you please keep that in mind.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We share

5 the same notions, Mr. President. The clearest link is the following:

6 During the cross-examination, the witness spoke of the existence of an

7 investigation which was conducted by the chief of artillery with respect

8 to one specific incident.

9 It seems that these logbooks may have been used to show what had

10 happened during the investigation, and this investigation was mentioned in

11 the cross-examination. What I am doing, I am just using it instead of

12 asking about Mr. Grajic, I believe, and an internal investigation, I just

13 want to ask questions about a parallel level.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Two more questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the

19 witness has already answered, I am just going to ask one more question.

20 Q. Witness, on this subject, do you know if any protest was made by

21 UN forces on the level of your battalion, and if you can answer with a yes

22 or no, we would appreciate it. Thank you.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Very last question with respect to the

25 quality of the shells, do you know if on the other side the shells were of

Page 14959

1 a different quality, or were they --

2 MR. STAMP: Again --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --

4 MR. STAMP: We asked no questions about the shells from the other

5 side. It doesn't arise from cross-examination.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You may put this question to the witness, and that

7 will be the last one, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Witness, do you know if on the other side the BH forces had the

10 same problems with their own weapons in terms of quality of shells, that

11 is, on the quality of firing as well and the quality of firing?

12 MR. STAMP: Now the question not only does not arise, it is now

13 very leading.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It is a leading question. Please answer the question

15 and we will hear what your answer is.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I shouldn't have had the

17 second part of the question, I would have answered to it that they were

18 not very precise. Sometimes they even used the anti-hail shells, you

19 know, the very heavy sound which is very frightening and doesn't have good

20 precision. They were very unselective and very unprecise in their firing.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 You spoke about two tanks dug in near to the Kosevo tunnel. Do

Page 14960

1 you recall that?

2 A. Above. That is, on the slope which goes from the Hum hill towards

3 the old Ciglana, it is not populated there. But it certainly -- it is

4 just soil there. It is not populated.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Do you know whether those tanks ever fire?

6 A. Personally, I did not see it. I don't think I said I did, but it

7 was from our men on the positions primarily who were located in Vraca. I

8 heard that that is where the firing was coming from.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: How far is the nearest entrance to the Kosevo

10 tunnel to the nearest building of the Kosevo Hospital complex, if you

11 know?

12 A. I didn't say on the left-hand side. From the west side there was

13 a lorry that came -- the mortars came -- fired from the lorry. And from

14 the Kosevo Hospital, it was mostly during truce periods, there was 10 or

15 15 such examples. So the question has nothing to do with the operation

16 from the mobile trucks. Perhaps I didn't understand.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The question is: The distance, the distance

18 between the Kosevo tunnel and the Kosevo Hospital, which is the distance?

19 It is very simple. The hospital is a very big complex. I am talking

20 about the closest building to the tunnel.

21 A. Perhaps some 400 metres. There is an entire road between them and

22 goes to Vogosca near the Kosevo stadium. It has nothing to do with each

23 other, the Kosevo tunnel and the Kosevo Hospital.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Were your mortars fixed to the ground or could

25 you move them from their place? I am sorry. I couldn't --

Page 14961

1 A. Yes, they were fixed to the ground, but we also moved them because

2 a mortar, if there were 10 or 15 shells, if that -- if the soil is soft,

3 then it starts sinking.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No more questions, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

6 you.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 [Interpretation] I would like you to tell me about -- clarify two

9 or three points for me, please. The first is in relation to the tanks.

10 If I recall correctly, you said, and I am going to quote you in English,

11 it was an answer to a Prosecution question [In English] "The tanks were

12 dug in, and you could only fire with shells which had fuses."

13 [Interpretation] If I understand well, to a question asked by

14 Judge Nieto-Navia, you said that you heard, that you didn't see, the tank.

15 Were you speaking of one single tank? Were there several tanks? And

16 where do you have this information that the tanks were dug in, in fact?

17 A. I didn't -- not that I didn't say the tank. What I mean is that I

18 didn't see the tank fire which is a completely different thing. I didn't

19 see the tank fire. But we did see tanks dug in. We saw the barrels come

20 out. I didn't say without a detonator, but only with delayed det -- time

21 delay detonators. So they would be detonators with a time delay built in.

22 And I said that instantly highly explosive shells there would be no point

23 in doing this. I don't know. We didn't use those.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So what you are saying, what you

25 are saying is that you saw the tanks dug in. In English, it was "dug

Page 14962

1 in" --

2 A. That is what I said in my first testimony on Friday, I believe.

3 That's the truth.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But they were

5 immobile targets, they were immobilised in a way?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, my second

8 question: You said, and I am going to quote you in English [In English]

9 "I was the only one in the battery who had the right military specialty

10 for this."

11 [Interpretation] And can we understand that during your absence,

12 or while when you were not there, your battery continued anyway to

13 function. Who was taking over from you, if the person who was in charge

14 was not capable acting as a qualified military person?

15 A. I didn't say that the others were not -- didn't have the

16 expertise, but I said that within a very short period from the 13th to the

17 28th of March, the battery in the area of Han Pijesak and in the training

18 firing in Kalinovik, we became capable for conditions very quickly and the

19 commander officer of the battery, late Jovan Orasanin, had been an

20 infantry lieutenant and he knew how to operate the 82 millimetre mortars,

21 and his deputy, Milorad Krajisnik from Rogatica, served on M-48 mortars,

22 the so-called heavy mortars which had wheels. So all of them managed to

23 become good at this, good at operating in a very short period of time.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Well, you

25 said, if I understand correctly, to a question that was asked, and I am

Page 14963

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Page 14964

1 going to quote the question in English [In English] "Battery crew used map

2 coordinates to fire," [Interpretation] You answered and I am going to

3 quote [In English] "At the time the map you cannot see the height of the

4 buildings."

5 [Interpretation] So what do you do then? How were you able to

6 take into consideration the buildings, different heights of buildings,

7 without hitting some nonmilitary targets? How do you handle this problem

8 of different heights of buildings, of civilian buildings?

9 A. This question was within the context of another question, and I

10 think that's the reason why I went around the lines to see where we were

11 able to operate, where we were able to fire. That is precisely why we

12 couldn't fire when we were asked to, what you just said, Judge, is if

13 there was another battery which was in a possibility to hit this target.

14 So if I am firing with a mortar behind a high building, and there is a

15 target, and obviously I cannot hit that target if there is a building in

16 front of it, so sometimes we would have to go personally and see which

17 targets were possible. We didn't fire the targets that we -- you just

18 said -- we didn't fire the targets that we couldn't hit. It is not a

19 question of height, but it was a question of where the shell was supposed

20 to go to from where the point -- the point from where the enemy forces

21 were firing, if I understood your question correctly.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. I am just quoting you.

23 These are not my words. So another thing, please, you said that you

24 intervened in terms of -- if there was an attack, that is, you returned

25 fire when there was a Muslim attack. I understand well that these were

Page 14965

1 infantry attacks. Could you perhaps explain to me how a mortar can

2 intervene, how can it be engaged when there are troops, when there is

3 manpower that is engaged? Don't you risk -- isn't there a risk of hitting

4 your own troops with mortar fire?

5 A. For these reasons that's why I said we fired towards the

6 Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, Jewish cemetery, those locations when there

7 are no high buildings. Where there are high buildings, the mortar is not

8 much use. So we didn't fire alongside the river bank and so on.

9 Naturally with the first shell, there is always a factor of risk and that

10 a shell is then sent somewhat further away.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that to be very

12 accurate you have to fire more than one shell?

13 A. In principle, yes.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Golic, I've got a few questions for you as well.

16 Is my understanding correct that you and your battery were operating in

17 the beginning of 1993 as well?

18 A. Not in the Sarajevo area.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then. That's not a correct understanding.

20 Thank you for that answer. As far as the tanks are concerned, we -- you

21 have answered several questions in respect of these tanks that were dug

22 in. You told us Friday that you could only see the barrels on the

23 south-eastern slope of Hum towards Ciglana, and that's what you told us

24 today as well.

25 The matter came up subsequent to a question about firing of

Page 14966

1 mortars from the Kosevo tunnel. Could you tell us, these tanks, were they

2 dug in westerly from the Kosevo tunnel or easterly?

3 A. North-west. Somewhat further away and further towards the west.

4 JUDGE ORIE: At what distance, approximately, from the tunnel?

5 A. Perhaps some 800 metres because the tunnel is little lower down

6 and the other is further up towards the hill. So it is very hard to say

7 because it is a slope.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that this is also,

9 therefore, seen from the tunnel, not in the direction of the

10 Kosevo Hospital, but in the other direction?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then you told us that sometimes if you wanted to hit

13 targets, especially if they were hidden more or less by buildings, that

14 you would have to go and look and see whether you could identify these

15 targets. Could you give me examples of that? What would you see if you

16 tried to identify them?

17 A. Well, I said from Vraca you could see the memorial park and what I

18 didn't say, nobody asked me about it, they had their anti-aircraft cannon

19 at 220 millimetres and from that place you could observe the best. Most

20 of the time the targets from high buildings, as I said, where some sniper

21 firing, where you could only hear the hit, the shot much later because the

22 sound doesn't travel so well. And you can -- don't know whether the

23 bullet has been fired or not. But these were not our targets and we

24 simply could not target such sniper nests. We mostly targeted locations

25 of concentration of the Jihad Army, their artillery positions.

Page 14967

1 JUDGE ORIE: Was your unit ever involved in responding to sniper

2 fire?

3 A. No, no. No, we were not in a position to do that. I am sorry.

4 In terms of Mojmilo hill, from that part located above where Lukavica was

5 and the Mojmilo hill, there are settlements when the Sandjak people were

6 and there on several occasions -- I apologise -- we did operate. But this

7 was like the suburbs and around in the hills, they had their positions as

8 well. So it was their line, their position, as well as the snipers in

9 some basements or something.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then respond to, how would you

11 consider this? Was this only if there was an attempt for a breakthrough

12 or that you would be involved in such an action?

13 A. Breaking the Muslim line through. I didn't take part in such an

14 operation but as a battery we took part in the liberation of Zlatiste.

15 That is the part below the Trebevic, where the Muslim had a direct link to

16 Skenderija where there was a secret tunnel or something and they came out

17 from there. This was held by the police and the police handed it over to

18 the Muslims. So we couldn't use that road and we had to lift the blockade

19 and sometime in June, in the first attack, we didn't manage to take

20 Zlatiste, and in the second attempt, the second attack where our battery

21 was also engaged, I think there were five platoons with six weapons and

22 all the shells, so I think that was -- and then Zlatiste was taken.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Not platoons, but salvo. Interpreter

24 apologises.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer. This concludes your

Page 14968

1 testimony in this court unless there are any --

2 MR. STAMP: Just three areas that I would like to ask about

3 briefly, but I don't know if my friend, if the Defence would have any. I

4 think the order would be for them to go first.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I always try to say to the witness, "this

6 concludes the evidence" but I now and then hope that that would be true.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is provocation,

8 Mr. President. I will leave this to Mr. Stamp, and we will see what we

9 shall do subsequently. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We will do that anyhow after the break if these are

11 more than one questions -- yes, Mr. Stamp?

12 MR. STAMP: Very well.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, let me just first -- I think the proper order to

19 proceed is to ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin whether he wants to put any additional

20 questions, and he indicated more or less that he would wait and see. But

21 I think it would be proper that you make up your mind now whether you have

22 any additional questions to the witness, if so, please put them to the

23 witness, and if not I will ask Mr. Stamp to proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, perhaps just one

25 question.

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Page 14970

1 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke about, in response to a

3 question put to you by the President, you spoke about the tank that had

4 been dug in. And the question is as follows there will be two questions.

5 The first question: Was this tank operated -- accompanied by its

6 operators, the troops that are supposed to use it usually; yes or no?

7 A. When I saw it, I didn't see anyone moving.

8 Q. Secondly, the position, the place where the tank was dug in, did

9 that prevent the turret from rotating? Did it prevent it from making the

10 rotations that tank usually makes when it is in action?

11 A. Well, all I know is there was shelling of our command in Vraca.

12 It didn't rotate, but I think it was possible for it to rotate.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the only thing I asked is where

14 the tanks were located, especially whether they were west or east of the

15 tunnel. That is the only clarification I sought. And I see that you are

16 now touching upon different matters.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But let

18 me explain why, perhaps. You asked whether it was while going away from

19 the hospital.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted

22 to say is that --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make sure, could this have been said when the

24 witness is present or -- yes, please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so. This doesn't

Page 14971

1 concern me directly. But what I wanted to establish was whether it was

2 possible for a tank, whether it is west or north-west with regard to a

3 certain spot, whether it is possible for it to fire over such a position

4 which could have provoked fire in response. This is the only thing I

5 wanted to establish and I think that the witness has answered the

6 question. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if that was your last question. I do not

8 see it, as a matter of fact -- yes. "When I saw it, I didn't see anyone

9 moving. Yes, being dug in would not prevent the turret from moving."

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

13 Q. I think you said in answer to Judge El Mahdi that a mortar tube or

14 weapon cannot fire over a building. May I ask you this: Is it not

15 possible for a mortar round because of its relatively steep angle of

16 descent to hit a target which is behind a building?

17 A. It wasn't that, that if the building is high it can't fire behind

18 the building. It has its trajectory, a shell has its trajectory so it

19 can't hit something behind a tall building. Just because the building is

20 very tall and the shell has its normal ballistics trajectory.

21 Q. Are you saying that it is impossible for a mortar shell to hit a

22 target behind a tall building or would it depend on the distance between

23 the target and the tall building?

24 A. Naturally. If the distance is great from the place where the shot

25 is fired from, then the angle of descent is lesser and the area behind the

Page 14972

1 building that can be hit becomes reduced, if I have understood your

2 question correctly. We never fired at a distance closer than 2 to 3.000

3 metres except when we had semi-direct firing in the Mojmilo area, when we

4 aimed directly, all the targets were over 3.000 metres away. And

5 regardless of how high the shell goes, it can't hit something behind a

6 tall building.

7 Q. I see. You also said, if my understanding is correct, that you

8 can't fire at something you couldn't see. Is that your evidence or is it

9 that many times observers --

10 A. That's not what I said. That's not what I said.

11 Q. Very well. So it is correct that you would be able to fire at

12 targets which you couldn't see with the direction of your observers? Or

13 may I rephrase that. Is that with the assistance of observers telling you

14 exactly where the target is your mortar battery could fire at targets

15 which you couldn't actually see from where the mortars were placed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said also that in respect to firing in the vicinity of

18 Brotherhood and Unity Bridge and with the Jewish cemetery you said that

19 with the first shell there was a factor of risk and that shell is then

20 sent somewhere further away. What do you mean by that? When you say the

21 first shell would be sent somewhat further away, do you mean that it would

22 be sent further away from targets, perhaps your own troops that you did

23 not want to hit?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. STAMP: And Mr. President, the last question with your leave

Page 14973

1 is in respect to a new issue which was raised by my learned colleague for

2 the Defence in re-examination. And that is in respect to the battery

3 commander showing to UNPROFOR personnel the logbook or the records of

4 firing. So it doesn't really arise from a question that was asked by

5 Your Honours, but something which arose, and it is one question.

6 Q. You said earlier that you thought that your battery commander

7 might have showed your battery's logbook of firing and targeting to

8 United Nations' personnel. Can you say what were the possible reasons or

9 circumstances why your battery commander might have showed this logbook to

10 United Nations' personnel?

11 A. When representatives, UNPROFORs -- when UNPROFOR representatives

12 would go around, this was mostly in Petrovici.

13 Q. The circumstances in which your battery commander might have

14 showed the UNPROFOR personnel the logbooks were merely when they visited?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. Nothing further.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Golic -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not a

19 question, but quite simply the witness mentioned the Dobrovoljacka Street.

20 I don't know if we could ask the witness whether this concerns the same

21 street that is sometimes called the Benevolencija Street, and this is just

22 so as to be able to establish what we are talking about. I am told that

23 it is not the same thing.

24 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, it would have been proper to ask the

25 witness whether he knows whether this street also has another name,

Page 14974

1 because it was leading; and second, I do understand that you received an

2 answer to your question from a different side. So there is no need to

3 answer that question any more.

4 Mr. Golic, it took us quite some time but you finally now have

5 answered all the questions of the parties and of the Bench.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We also know that it is quite a distance where you

8 come from. We would like to thank you for having come to The Hague and

9 have testified in this court because this Chamber needs the information

10 given by those who have been present at the relevant times and at the

11 relevant places. Therefore, thank you once again and I wish you a safe

12 trip home again. Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, please escort the witness out of the

15 courtroom.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We have no documents that are in need to be admitted

18 into evidence. It is still a bit unclear to the Chamber at this very

19 moment who would be your next witness, and if it is a witness that you

20 asked -- for which you sought protective measures, and let me just try to

21 make things clear. It is a woman or it is a man? That might clarify the

22 issue.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is a man.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it is a bit confusing to me. Let's just

25 turn into private session for one second.

Page 14975

1 [Private session]

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Page 14980

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anyone in the public gallery? We can't see

7 it from here quite well. There is no one in the public gallery. We then

8 turn into open session for a while.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

13 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

14 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I

15 invite you to make that declaration of which the text will be handed out

16 to you now by the usher.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. We will not

20 use your own name, but we will use the pseudonym -- Ms. Pilipovic? We

21 will use the pseudonym DP11 and your face will not be visible for the

22 outside world as well since protective measures have been granted in

23 respect of you. You will first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. Do we have to turn into private

25 session or...

Page 14981

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, very briefly

2 just to get biographical data from Mr. DP11, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will then turn into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

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9 [redacted]

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Page 14982

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Page 14983

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14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. D11, you told us that after the war broke out you moved to

19 Vraca, to Grbavica, in Novo Sarajevo municipality. Can you tell us, in

20 September of 1992, were you in that area?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us, when you say that you were in that area were you

23 engaged anywhere?

24 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. When you tell us that you were engaged in the

Page 14984

1 Army of Republika Srpska, can you tell us in September 1992, did you have

2 a rank?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In what capacity -- I withdraw that.

5 Could you tell us what was the unit that you belonged to in

6 September 1992 as a private, as a soldier of the Republika Srpska?

7 A. 3rd company, 3rd Battalion of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters corrects herself, 4th Battalion of

9 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could you tell me, how many people were in the battalion of your

12 3rd company [sic]?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us how many? What was the strength of it?

15 A. Depending on what was happening in the terrain, the composition of

16 the unit changed. Normally it would be 80 to 100 people.

17 Q. Can you tell me what kind of weapons you personally had and in

18 terms of your unit?

19 A. I had an M-84 rifle, and the company had automatic rifles,

20 automatic and semi-automatic rifles, two machine-guns, and two mortars,

21 M-60.

22 Q. Can you tell us, 80 to 100 people who were a part of your company,

23 who were these people?

24 A. These were ordinary citizens of the settlement, of the

25 neighbourhood where we lived. Average age of the company was about 45.

Page 14985

1 Q. Can you tell us, did you have a uniform and if you did, what kind

2 of uniforms did you have?

3 A. To start with, we did not. But later on, beginning of 1993, we

4 started receiving some uniforms. Later on, somewhat more. Camouflage,

5 ordinary camouflage uniforms.

6 Q. Can you tell us, in September of 1992, where were the positions of

7 your company?

8 A. Beginning from the beginning of April until the end of 1995, these

9 positions were held the same in the Jewish cemetery.

10 Q. Can you tell us, who was the commanding officer of your unit?

11 A. Yes. Mirko Stanic.

12 Q. You told us that your company was part of the 3rd Battalion.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us who was the commander officer of the

15 3rd Battalion?

16 A. Blagoje Kovacevic.

17 Q. Do you know to which brigade your battalion belonged to?

18 A. Yes. To the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

19 Q. When you told us who the commanding officer of your company was

20 and who was the commanding officer of the battalion, could you tell us

21 whether these people were professional soldiers or were they also citizens

22 who lived in that area?

23 A. The commanding officer of the company was an ordinary citizen who

24 lived in that area. The commanding officer of the battalion was in the or

25 had been in the Yugoslav Army before the war and had the rank of a

Page 14986

1 captain.

2 Q. Mr. D11, could you tell us about the length of the front line of

3 your company?

4 A. Yes. About 250 metres.

5 Q. Can you tell us where were you stationed while you were on the

6 front line?

7 A. Yes, in a house nearby in Pandurevica about 30 metres from the

8 front line.

9 Q. So you are telling us that in this house was the command post of

10 your company?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At the time you were in the positions, so from the period from

13 April until 1995, you say this line didn't change, this position didn't

14 change, and that two members --

15 A. No, it is a mistake. It is from April 1992 from 1995 until the

16 Dayton Agreement was signed. Could you repeat the question.

17 Q. Mr. D11, you are telling us that from April 1992 until the end of

18 1995 you were with your company holding these positions; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us, did you dig trenches?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you tell us that you dug trenches, are you telling us that

23 during the duration of the conflict and you spent time in these trenches

24 and the war you spent time in the trenches?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14987

1 Q. In relation to the positions of your company, the front lines for

2 which you say were on the Jewish cemetery, can you tell us whether in the

3 vicinity there were BH Army soldiers, and if so, at which distance were

4 they in relation to your front line?

5 A. Yes. They were in the lower part by the chapel of the Jewish

6 cemetery, about 50, 60 metres away. And the top of the cemetery, they

7 were at a distance of about 30 metres on the other side of the wall.

8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you're telling us that the lines

9 of separation of both armies in relation to the Jewish cemetery were at

10 the Jewish cemetery?

11 A. On one side of the wall of the Jewish cemetery, we were. On the

12 other side, they were.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

14 like to show one part of the Sarajevo map to the witness DP11 considering

15 that during the -- by answering some questions he told us about the

16 positions of his company. And we would like to ask the witness to mark

17 the positions of the company and, if he knows, of the battalion.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be D1778.

20 Q. Mr. DP11, on your right-hand side do you recognise a map? You can

21 have a look on your right-hand side. You can have a look at the map.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. DP11, if you can, could you please mark with a black pen the

24 positions of your company. Just a moment. Just a moment. If you can use

25 a fine-liner, please, so that...

Page 14988

1 If you can just tell us what you are marking at this moment so

2 that we can say it into the transcript.

3 A. [Marks] My 3rd Company.

4 Q. Could you tell us -- could you mark for us the positions of your

5 battalion?

6 A. Yes. [Marks] That's the 4th Company.

7 Q. So you are marking the positions of the 4th Company?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many companies were in your battalion?

10 A. Five.

11 Q. Can you tell us the positions of the other companies?

12 A. Yes. [Marks] 5th Company.

13 Q. You've marked the 3rd, the 4th and the 5th. What about the

14 positions of the 1st and the 2nd Company?

15 A. [Marks] 1st company.

16 Q. Positions of the 2nd Company?

17 A. [Marks] 2nd Company.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. D11, in relation to the positions of the

19 battalion, and specifically your company, could you mark, indicate, the

20 front line of the BH Army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. D11, if you can use a dotted line to indicate the positions?

23 MR. STAMP: Perhaps if he could use a dotted line, but a blue

24 marker.

25 JUDGE ORIE: A blue marker would suggest that it was done on the

Page 14989

1 request of the Prosecution, I take it.

2 MR. STAMP: Very well.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we usually do.

4 MR. STAMP: Very well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So not use the blue marker --

6 MR. STAMP: Very well. And just for clarity, sic, I am wondering

7 if the witness would be able to explain what he means when he marks lines,

8 in response to questions about the position. If he meant these were the

9 front lines of the companies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems there could be some confusion in that

11 respect. Could you please clarify this.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. D11, when you indicated the part of the companies that were

14 part of your battalion, could you tell us the area of the 4th Company,

15 what part of town is that?

16 A. That is the position below the main road in the direction of Pale

17 going towards the Vrbanja Bridge.

18 Q. Can you tell us the location and the part of town where your 3rd

19 Company was?

20 A. Could you please repeat the question.

21 Q. The position of your 3rd Company, what part of town is that? You

22 said it was the Jewish cemetery?

23 A. Jewish cemetery. I said it was Jewish cemetery, I said it several

24 times.

25 Q. The position of the 5th Company?

Page 14990

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the location, please.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What about the 1st company?

4 A. The 1st company's position were in Debelo Brdo.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague told me

6 that what was not entered into the transcript was the answer of the

7 witness about the positions of the 5th Company.

8 Q. Mr. D11, could you tell us precisely about the positions of the

9 5th Company, what part of town is that?

10 A. Yes. Below the Debelo Brdo, former barracks of the JNA Bosut.

11 Q. When you say former barracks of the JNA, could you tell us what

12 army used that barracks before?

13 A. Yes. The commanding officer of the company Vojvoda, Slavko

14 Aleksic. It was composed of ordinary people and it belonged to the Army

15 of Republika Srpska.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, the position of the 1st Company, what

17 positions were they as part of the positions?

18 A. These were positions below Staro Brdo and around Staro Brdo.

19 Q. When you say "below Staro Brdo and around Staro Brdo," can you

20 tell us what is the altitude of Staro Brdo?

21 A. About 750 metres.

22 Q. Can you tell us about the positions of the 2nd Company?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What part is that?

25 A. That is the road going towards Pale, Zlatiste, via Trebevic.

Page 14991

1 Q. When you marked the positions of the companies within the 3rd

2 Battalion, can you mark on the map the front lines of the BH Army and use

3 a dotted line for that, please.

4 A. Yes. Which colour?

5 Q. With a black fine liner, dotted line, please. And if we can be

6 efficient, please, and could you tell us which parts of town you are now

7 marking?

8 A. I am marking here below the 4th company where are the positions of

9 the Muslim army [marks]. In front of the 3rd Company, Muslim lines

10 [marks]. And then I am marking in front of the 5th Company [marks], and

11 then in front of the 1st Company [marks], and then in front of the 2nd

12 Company [marks].

13 MR. STAMP: I don't know exactly what the purpose is, but if these

14 markings are going to be of any use, precise use later on, we need to have

15 a record of what he is saying in reference to what he is writing. As he

16 drew the lines, both set of lines, he has been explaining without us being

17 given a description of what he is referring to.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, there might be some confusion.

19 The last dotted lines the witness has drawn which he said that -- let me

20 just -- of which he said that these were the lines, the front lines of the

21 BH Army. He testified that was -- he was marking the lines below the

22 4th Company, and he drew the line from the Miljacka river close to a

23 number, "292," and close where it reads "Unioninvest" in south-easterly

24 direction passing by as it seems the Jewish cemetery, if I am correct, and

25 then the dotted line continues over what is Staro Brdo, and then turns

Page 14992

1 into an easterly direction.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. D11, by marking these lines, the dotted ones as well as the

5 full lines, did you mark the positions of the two armies?

6 A. Yes. I will explain it a little. I will elaborate a little. I

7 marked it so that there is no confusion regarding the changing of the line

8 because there was no change to the line during the war.

9 Q. So, Mr. D11, you're telling us that these lines, the way that you

10 have marked them, are dotted as being BH Army lines, and full lines as

11 being lines of the positions of the Republika Srpska Army were the front

12 lines which were in position throughout the conflict period? Are you

13 confirming then that from April 1992 until the end of the war in 1995,

14 these were the lines?

15 A. Yes, from the start of the war until the end of the war.

16 Q. Mr. D11, since you've marked these lines, could you tell us what

17 period of time from the time when they were set up until the end of the

18 war, what period of time did you spend on these positions of your

19 3rd Company?

20 A. From the start to finish. From 1992 until the end of 1995, that

21 is, until the company was disbanded and Serbs left Sarajevo.

22 Q. Since you've marked these lines, can you tell us, from the period

23 of 1992 until September until the 10th of August 1994, in this area that

24 you have marked, was there fighting?

25 A. Yes, there was intense fighting.

Page 14993

1 Q. When you say that the fighting was intense, could you tell us how

2 frequent such fighting -- how frequently such fighting occurred?

3 A. Almost on a daily basis.

4 Q. Mr. D11, you say that the fighting occurred on a daily basis. But

5 can you tell us whether you had personal knowledge as to the positions

6 from which the fighting was being fought?

7 A. Yes. They fired at us from the direction of Hum. They fired at

8 us from tanks. They fired at us from Pofalici where the water supply

9 system is. They fired from multiple rocket launchers at us. From the

10 railway station, they fired at us with mortars. And from the tunnel which

11 goes towards the Kosevo stadium, they fired at us from a tank. From the

12 Kosevo Hospital they fired at us. They fired at us with mortars. They

13 fired at us with snipers from all the high buildings, including Mojmilo,

14 the Assembly, the Executive Committee, the Marshal Tito Barracks, et

15 cetera.

16 Q. Mr. D11, when you listed the positions of the BH Army and the

17 positions from which they fired and the weapons that they used, can you

18 indicate the Sogbunar and Sirokaca [Realtime transcript read in error

19 "Rogatica"] positions on this map?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. For the sake of the transcript, Witness, could you mark the place

22 that you have called Sogbunar with a number "1."

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Use number "2" to mark the position, to mark Sirokaca.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid a misunderstanding, where the

Page 14994

1 question -- the earlier question reads the Rogatica positions, I think you

2 asked then already for the Sogbunar positions. I think that is page --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I don't know

4 how Rogatica turned up.

5 Q. Mr. D11, you marked with number 1 the place called Sogbunar and

6 Sirokaca with number 2, now that you have done that, can you tell us with

7 regard to those positions from which you said the BH Army fired at you,

8 could you tell us what weapons, what guns were used in the fighting and

9 how often were they used?

10 A. They used mortars almost on a daily basis when they would attack

11 us.

12 Q. When you say "mortars," are you claiming that they only used

13 mortars or were other weapons used?

14 A. Well, there was heavy infantry weapons, Pams, PATs, machine-guns.

15 Q. Mr. D11, do you know whether in those areas, the areas of Sogbunar

16 and Sirokaca do you know when the members of the BH Army were positioned?

17 And if you know, what unit was there?

18 A. Yes. They were located in the school and Caco's units and the

19 Black Swans led them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just for

22 the sake of the transcript, I can see "Pam" and "Pat." Perhaps it would be

23 a good time to clarify this. It is PAN, instead of Pan and it would be

24 necessary to say what a "Pat" means. We know what it means, but this is

25 so that everyone can know what it means. If you like I can tell you. I

Page 14995

1 will be quite happy to do so.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think we should ask the witness to clarify and I

3 think it is --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. D11, when you said P-A-M, Pam, and P-A-T, Pat, if that is

6 what you said?

7 A. Pam. That's a 12.7 millimetre calibre.

8 Q. Could you explain to us what these abbreviations mean?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. D11, when you indicated the Sogbunar and Sirokaca positions

11 and told us that these were the BH Army positions, can you tell us that

12 whether from the position where your company was located, did you move

13 from those positions? Did you go to other positions that your battalion

14 had?

15 A. I am sorry. You have made a mistake. These weren't the positions

16 of the Muslim army, but of the Muslim artillery. And these were positions

17 where they had other weapons too. But the Muslim army was by the Jewish

18 cemetery, by the wall.

19 Q. Yes, Mr. D11, that's how I understood you, but I wanted to know

20 whether you and your company went to other positions that your battalion

21 held?

22 A. Yes, and I went there personally. I went to help the 5th Company,

23 the 2nd Company, the 1st Company, when there was fierce fighting, when a

24 fierce offensive had been launched. I could provide you with the dates.

25 Q. Mr. D11, when you say large-scale offensive or large-scale attack,

Page 14996

1 could you tell us when this took place?

2 A. Well, it was mostly at the beginning of April 1992 and in June

3 1992, December 1992, January 1994, 1993 February, 1995.

4 Q. Mr. D11, when you said "December 1992" could you tell us what

5 period that was, in December 1992 and could you tell us what the nature of

6 the attack was?

7 A. It was in the first half of December. There was a large-scale

8 attack at the Jewish cemetery. They were all intense. All the attacks

9 were intense.

10 Q. Mr. D11, you told us that you and your company, you personally and

11 your company, were present at all the positions held by the other

12 companies, that is to say, by your battalion. Could you tell us the

13 position of your 1st Company with regard to the positions that have been

14 marked, and with regard to the BH Army positions? So from which parts of

15 the town could be best seen from those positions?

16 A. Well, all parts of the town in the Old Town, Grbavica, Vraca.

17 Q. Given that you were in that position, could you explain us to what

18 the positions of the BH Army were with regard to Staro Brdo?

19 A. Yes. When the French UNPROFOR forces arrived, the Muslims took up

20 position in the -- among the rocks of the Staro Brdo behind the barracks,

21 the Bosut barracks, and they fired at us from the flank, they fired at our

22 units of the 3rd and 4th Company.

23 Q. With regard to the positions of your battalion, and when you mark

24 the positions in the Staro Brdo, can you tell us which other positions

25 were dominant with regard to the town?

Page 14997

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which were controlled by the army?

3 A. The BH Army controlled Mojmilo, Zuc, Igman, Debelo Brdo, above

4 Vogosca. Rijeka.

5 Q. Do you know about the Colina Kapa positions? Are you aware of

6 this?

7 A. Yes. The Muslims had Colina Kapa under their control. They fired

8 at the road to Pale via Trebevic, there was sniper fire, they came under

9 sniper fire and it was shelled by artillery.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

11 permission, the Defence would like -- Defence counsel would like to show a

12 photograph to the witness, the number is 341, and we would like to tender

13 this document into evidence under this number. Because this number has

14 been mentioned in the list of evidence as 341D. And our colleagues from

15 the Prosecution have these items.

16 Q. Mr. D11, can you recognise the view that you can see in this

17 photograph? Does it mean anything to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us from which positions this photograph was taken, in

20 your opinion?

21 A. Yes. From the left side of the Jewish cemetery.

22 Q. Could you tell us the high -- the tall white building, could you

23 tell us what this building is?

24 A. Yes. It is the Executive Council.

25 Q. Just a minute, Witness. You said that the white building that is

Page 14998

1 prominent in this photograph is the Executive Council building, have I

2 understood you correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you indicate this building to us once more.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. When you said the Assembly building, for the sake of the

7 transcript, when you -- it's the white building with a black roof which is

8 just below the Executive Council building.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to this

10 building and said it was the Assembly building.

11 Q. Mr. D11, can you tell us whether you can recognise any other

12 buildings in this photograph?

13 A. Yes. Holiday Inn.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript the

15 witness has pointed to a yellow building on the left-hand side, to the

16 left of the Executive Council building and he has said this is the

17 Holiday Inn.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Hum, and it is the relay

19 station on Hum.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you recognise any other buildings in this photograph?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Mr. D11 --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, when the witness indicated Hum

25 building with the relay station, he pointed at the hill in the background

Page 14999

1 with the tower on top of it on this photograph.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was

4 just wondering whether it would be necessary for the witness to encircle

5 the buildings and indicate what they are with a number to indicate the

6 Assembly building and Executive Council building.

7 Q. Could you mark the Executive Council building with a number "1."

8 You can make a large circle. You can encircle the building and you can

9 mark it with a large number "1."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. For the Presidency building, can you mark the Presidency building

12 with a number "2" and encircle it. The Assembly building.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Mr. D11, the yellow building which is to the left of the Executive

15 Council building, can you encircle that building and mark it with a number

16 "3." That is the Holiday Inn building.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Mr. D11, you said that the Hum hill and relay station, you said

19 that this was number 4. Could you mark a large circle there too, please.

20 A. And Number "5," the railway station.

21 Q. Sir, you've marked the railway station with a number "5." Could

22 you tell us about the building which is at the foot of the railway station

23 which has been marked number "5," what sort of building is that? Can you

24 tell us?

25 A. Yes. It is the Marshal Tito Barracks.

Page 15000

1 Q. Could you mark that building with number "6." Could you mark the

2 Marshal Tito Barracks with number "6."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Mr. D11, are there any other buildings that you can recognise in

5 this photograph? Any other buildings that you were able to see, any other

6 building that you can see in this photograph and that you recognise?

7 A. I can see all of these tall buildings here.

8 Q. Mr. D11, could you tell us between the Holiday Inn building that

9 has been marked with number "3" and the Marshal Tito Barracks, do you

10 recognise the building between these two buildings?

11 A. Yes. This is the transport school.

12 Q. Could you mark the transport school with the number "7."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Mr. D11, in the course of 1992, from March 1992 until the end of

15 the war, until August 1994, do you personally know whether during that

16 period these buildings were used by BH Army soldiers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us which of these buildings that you have marked

19 with the numbers, 1, 2, 3, 5 --

20 A. Yes. I will take them in order. Number 1, sniper nests. They

21 fired at Vraca, the Jewish cemetery, Grbavica. Number 2, also sniper

22 nests, targeted the Jewish cemetery and the road to Vraca. Number 3,

23 again, sniper nests. Number 4, multiple rocket launchers fired from

24 there. Number 5, mortars and snipers. Number 6, snipers. Number 7,

25 that's where they fired at the tunnel. That's from where tank fired. And

Page 15001

1 these buildings were used for accommodation for the Muslim army.

2 Q. Mr. D11, in the course of 1992 and 1994, can you tell us whether

3 and how often soldiers fired from the positions that you have marked and

4 with the weapons that you have mentioned? How often did this occur?

5 A. Well, this occurred on a daily basis. Several times every day.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness showed

7 the witness a photograph, D331. Defence would like to show the witness

8 another photograph marked D331.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. D11 --

13 MR. STAMP: Before we proceed, can I inquire if there is a

14 lighting system on the ELMO? Perhaps the photograph could be illuminated

15 a little bit more than it is.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please see whether you could make it even

17 more...

18 Perhaps we could continue meanwhile since we all have a photograph

19 in front of us. It is the best possible result, I am afraid.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. D11, can you recognise this photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us what you can see in this photograph?

24 A. You can see the entrance to the Jewish cemetery from the Muslim

25 side.

Page 15002

1 Q. With regard to this entrance that you say is the entrance to the

2 Jewish cemetery, can you tell us which forces had it under their control

3 in the course of the conflict?

4 A. It was under the control of the BH Army throughout the war.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would be

6 a good time to have a break.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until five minutes past 6.00

8 but not until after Mr. Stamp --

9 MR. STAMP: Perhaps my observation could wait -- would await the

10 adjournment. Perhaps what I would like to indicate could await our return

11 to court.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do not follow you. Yes. You would say you tell me

13 after the break. Yes. We will adjourn until five minutes past 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the issue you wanted to raise, is that

17 something that can be done in the presence of the witness?

18 MR. STAMP: It is something which I think I ought to reserve and

19 allow the flow of evidence. Instead of introducing a procedural matter at

20 this stage, I think I will observe it at a more appropriate stage.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. D11, on this photograph you told us that Jewish cemetery could

24 be seen. This was the entrance to the Jewish cemetery. Did I understand

25 you correctly?

Page 15003

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The previous photograph you showed us some buildings that you

3 recognised and for which you told us where the buildings that during the

4 conflict were held by the BH Army. Could you tell us, from the positions

5 of the Jewish cemetery, what view did you have in relation to these parts

6 of town, that is, to the locations that we marked?

7 A. We had a very good view because these were tall buildings. And we

8 were on an elevated point, higher than 150 metres.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, my colleague

10 would continue with the examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

15 Witness, good afternoon. Earlier you spoke of the positions

16 located on what we call Colina Kapa. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know if there are several Colina Kapa

19 locations?

20 A. No.

21 Q. After this name, Colina Kapa, is there a qualifier to indicate

22 something?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. You don't know. Very well.

25 Witness, do you know if the positions of Colina Kapa in relation

Page 15004

1 to your own positions, in relation to the positions that you held, were

2 they to the south or to the north or anywhere else?

3 A. Of which army?

4 Q. I am talking about the positions of the BH Army on Colina Kapa.

5 Was this in front of you or behind you in relation to the city that you

6 had in front of you?

7 A. In front of us.

8 Q. Witness, the position of Colina Kapa, was this between you and the

9 city; is that what you are saying?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Very well.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please show the

13 witness an exhibit, one of the Prosecution maps. For us it will be number

14 1779, and could it be pleased placed on the ELMO. I suggest that we place

15 the document in colour on the ELMO. Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please focus on the two lines, the

19 line which is dark green line which is located at the south of the map,

20 and that is the VRS; and the light green, which is in the north of this

21 map above Brajkovac, would correspond to the BH Army positions. This

22 position of the lines at the time, did they seem accurate to you; yes or

23 no, and why?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Do you see a circle, a red circle below point 58?

Page 15005

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. According to your experience, which one of the two

3 armies at the time that you knew was located in the area marked by this

4 red circle?

5 A. BH Army.

6 Q. Are you absolutely certain about this, Witness?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, between the circle that you

9 mentioned and number 2, do we see, or rather what do we see between those

10 points in terms of facilities, buildings or obstacles? What do you know

11 about this space between?

12 A. Yes. There is a locality held by the BH Army.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can withdraw this map now

15 and we can go on to the next map, please.

16 MR. STAMP: As it is being withdrawn, may I just note for the

17 record that there was a summary provided and reference was not made to the

18 fact that this witness would be testifying in respect of incident 2,

19 sniping incident 2.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, as far as this is

22 concerned, I am not sure -- I will have to check the correspondence, what

23 has been submitted, and then I will check it later. Thank you. Now --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... informed before

25 the -- before 7.00. Please proceed.

Page 15006

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will just confer. Thank

2 you.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Map 180 with the assistance of

5 the usher, please.

6 Q. Witness, again, we have a map. Do you recognise it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. The positions of the lines, do they seem correct to

9 you?

10 MR. STAMP: The last observation I made in respect of notice from

11 summaries, I again make in respect of this map, for what it is worth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is incident 11 mentioned in the summary?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is the same

14 answer, I believe, because we are going to check and we will tell you

15 later, if you give us your permission.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Questions had been answered already when Mr. Stamp

17 raised the issue in respect of the -- of the earlier questions. We are

18 now about to hear the answers of the witness. Will there be any different

19 questions to -- in respect of this map compared the earlier one or would

20 you -- do you intend to ask the same to the witness? Because the first

21 question was --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. If the question is

23 addressed to me, then I will answer. The questions that we would like to

24 ask are in relation to the proximity of the cemetery, what is known as the

25 Jewish cemetery in relation to this incident and so on.

Page 15007

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there is any additional summary,

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but I see 12, 15 and 24 on your summary. This is not a

5 minor issue you are raising here in respect of -- let's just first

6 concentrate on sniping incident 2. It would have been appropriate to, if

7 you indicate incidents in your summary, you cannot in view of the

8 questions you just put to this witness leave out number 2, is it?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will check,

10 with your leave, as soon as possible, precisely this question of the

11 testimony. I don't know whether this is in the correspondence of the 29th

12 or the 30th of October that we were referring to. It could be in one of

13 these letters. I don't have them before me, Mr. President. Mr. Stamp,

14 whether this witness, I don't recall it, but was this witness mentioned in

15 the letter dated the 29th of October, please?

16 MR. STAMP: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And are 2 and 11 mentioned in that letter Mr. Stamp?

18 MR. STAMP: 28th of October. We have two summaries.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the last summary, discuss it indicate 2 and 11?

20 MR. STAMP: No, it doesn't. 12, 15 and 24.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have it before me. I

22 will check.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: If the incidents are not mentioned in relation to

25 sniping incident 2, then it seems that the Defence has disregarded the

Page 15008

1 rulings of the Chamber in respect of these incidents. The Chamber will

2 consider what we will have to do. I mean, the questions in respect of

3 incident 2 have been put to the witness. Are your next questions in

4 relation to incident 11 or more general on the area? The positions at the

5 Jewish cemetery have been mentioned in the summary, already in the first

6 summary, so you are allowed to ask questions in that respect.

7 But the Chamber, again, stresses that we will not just continue

8 this way. I mean, this issue has been raised several times. The Defence

9 has been ordered not only to give further details as to what are relevant

10 facts in relation to certain sniping incidents, but now, as far as at

11 least as we can establish at this very moment, even not the specific

12 incidents are mentioned, especially in respect of incident number 2. It

13 cannot be said that this is not of importance for the Prosecution in

14 preparing for cross-examination.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to say that

18 the Defence specified every incident in the submission that my colleague

19 sent last week. I think it was last week. It was in French, written by

20 my colleague. I think it was mentioned at the meeting that we had with

21 you. I believe this is a misunderstanding, but unfortunately I do not

22 have the letter that is in French with me now, because I did not know it

23 was going to be contested. It was all mentioned in there, which incidents

24 we mentioned with which witnesses. I believe this is a slight

25 misunderstanding now.

Page 15009

1 JUDGE ORIE: I could not check this at this very moment.

2 Mr. Stamp, if relevant facts in respect of incident 2 and 11 have been

3 mentioned in recent correspondence, it would have been inappropriate to

4 raise the issue, as you have done it. We will check what has happened.

5 We will check what is in the correspondence, and then we will see who is

6 to be blamed for what happened here.

7 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will now

9 proceed in the following fashion, please. I propose that the witness

10 tells us for the map simply if he knows to which army did the red circle

11 belong to, the area of the red circle that he has to the right on the map.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the -- the map is the same as the other one.

13 Yes, it is different --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Almost the same.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was held by the BH Army.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, now could you please do the same

19 exercise, if this is possible, in relation to an exhibit that I will show

20 you now.

21 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the counsel, I am afraid.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you want to --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. This is 1781

24 with the assistance of the usher, please.

25 Q. Witness, can you identify the document that you have to your

Page 15010

1 right, please.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, in relation to this document and from -- no,

4 I withdraw that.

5 In the red circle that you have in the centre of the map, could

6 you tell us, if you know, which army held this area?

7 A. I am sorry. I am just going to first correct the positions of the

8 BH Army. It didn't go that way, but it goes, it just went right behind

9 the cemetery. This red circle is the chapel held by the BH Army, so the

10 lines should go here. Perhaps, I could correct it.

11 Q. Witness, perhaps I could just interrupt you. With a black pen, I

12 would be very grateful if you could correct what you think should be

13 corrected, if this line, so-called BH Army line, could you correct it. If

14 it is VRS line, please, with a full line, and the BH Army with a dotted

15 line.

16 MR. STAMP: Before we proceed, may I just inquire through the

17 Court, which maps are these which the witness is being shown? These maps

18 I don't believe they are in evidence in this form. I believe a corrected

19 version by a particular witness is in evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you -- I take it that the Defence wants to

21 tender -- looking at the numbers they are assigning to these maps, I take

22 it that they, on the basis of the maps that were originally disclosed, I

23 think -- that's at least how I understand.

24 MR. STAMP: They would be new exhibits.

25 JUDGE ORIE: They would be new exhibits, otherwise they would not

Page 15011

1 need to have any numbers. Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 Q. Witness, could you please do this, what I have asked you. So,

4 with a dotted line, the BH Army line; and with a full line, VRS line, if

5 you have to make any modifications, of course.

6 A. Yes, gladly. I will correct the mistake. The line of the

7 BH Army. The line of the 3rd Company, my company. And this is not

8 correct.

9 Q. Witness, you spoke to us of a chapel -- could you wait, please.

10 With a pointer, could you please point to where the chapel was.

11 A. The exact location of the chapel was here, this red circle here.

12 Q. Very well. Could you please mark it with a number "1," a small

13 number "1." Mark the chapel with number "1."

14 A. How should I mark it?

15 Q. Mark it in Arabic numerals.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, please tell me, under whose control

18 was this chapel? Which army controlled it?

19 A. The BH Army.

20 Q. How can you be sure of this? What personal knowledge did you have

21 of this?

22 A. Well, of course I know about this because I spent four years

23 there. They all fired from infantry weapons at us. They fired from the

24 chapel at us.

25 Q. Very well. But when you say that you were there during the entire

Page 15012

1 period, do you mean that they were there -- they were also there during

2 that entire period?

3 A. Yes. I can claim that for sure.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, from the positions that you have on

5 the left of this map, were you able to see anything at the level that has

6 been indicated by number 24 on this map and why?

7 A. Well, there was a building there. They acted from the inside. We

8 didn't see that. All that we could see was the firing.

9 Q. Witness, perhaps my question wasn't quite clear. I'll reformulate

10 it in two phases. Can you see the number "24" in the middle of the map?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. From the positions that you held, what was it possible

13 to see at the level of the ground or where you can see the number 24?

14 Thank you.

15 A. You could see some large buildings there. It was hidden.

16 Q. When you say "hidden," was it totally hidden, partially hidden?

17 A. On our side it was concealed by the buildings from the positions

18 of the Republika Srpska Army.

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we have 30 seconds,

21 please.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber

25 would like to avoid whatever possible confusion. We would like to verify

Page 15013

1 whether there could be any. May I ask you a question: If you look at

2 this map, and if you look at number "24" you see that it points to what

3 appears to be a red dot. Do you see that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know what is there on the place of that red

6 dot?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what it is, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the Jewish cemetery chapel.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No. I mean, that's the red circle. But I am drawing

11 your attention to the red dot. Could you please point at it on the map,

12 first at number 24.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indicates]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that red dot. Could you tell us -- yes, the dot

15 you just pointed at. Could you tell us exactly what that is?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a tram track.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said that you could not see number 24

18 from your positions, did you indicate that you could not see that part of

19 the tram track or were you pointing at where you see the number "24"

20 written on the map?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 24 on the map.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you see from your positions the tram

23 track at that specific point where you find the red dot?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were curtains. It was

25 difficult to see.

Page 15014

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well if you say that you would

2 have a view on where the tram track was, if there had been no curtains?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On our side, there were curtains

4 there, but it wasn't possible to see that because of the tall buildings.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps my next question would be: How would

6 you then know that there were curtains there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't there myself. I said

8 there were curtains in the direction of the tram track, but high buildings

9 obstructed our vision.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but how did you know that there were curtains?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say number 24 itself, but

12 here in the direction of Marijn Dvor.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then let me just ask precisely. Could you not

14 see the tram track specifically on the red dot location because of high

15 buildings or because of curtains? So I am only asking you about that

16 specific spot.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The high buildings with regard to

18 number 24 in particular.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the red dot, you mean?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Mr. President, in the pause, I found in our file a letter that we provided

24 the Prosecution with and I said the witness that we are speaking about now

25 will be testifying with regard to everything, with regard to the Jewish

Page 15015

1 cemetery will testify with regards to everything that concerns the Jewish

2 cemetery. And specifically with regard to that, the impossibility of

3 vision, the frequence of shooting, et cetera --

4 JUDGE ORIE: The letter I have not exactly here. If you could

5 just give it to the --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is just one thing that

7 hasn't been mentioned, number 11, and this is a mistake for sure.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have the first page here,

10 Mr. President, if it is required. I have the first page of the

11 correspondence, if it is necessary. Okay, thank you.

12 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about these buildings, in other words,

13 you said that from your positions you weren't able to see point 24 because

14 of the high buildings. As a result, was it possible to fire from your

15 positions at the red dot, number 24; yes or no, please?

16 A. No, because there was shooting from the BH Army side.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would like to change the subject

18 now and deal with this very briefly. I would like to move on to a series

19 of technical questions.

20 What can you tell us about ricochets and about stray bullets in

21 the course of an exchange of fire? Could you respond to this question

22 very briefly, please.

23 A. Yes. Whenever there was an attack and whenever there was intense

24 firing, bullets would ricochet from the walls because the Jewish cemetery

25 is surrounded by very high walls, two metres high. It is a concrete

Page 15016

1 construction, very solid material. So naturally the bullets would go all

2 over the place. And the terrain is on a slope.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know if on the other side of

4 the town of Sarajevo there were particular positions where the enemy could

5 produce weapons, munitions, et cetera, et cetera?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, do you know of any particular places?

8 A. I do because I lived in the war -- I lived in Sarajevo before the

9 war. One of such places was Vaso Miskin Crni. I know that because shells

10 would hit our positions and they had BH Army inscribed on them.

11 Q. Could you tell us where this factory was located, please?

12 A. In front of Marijn Dvor.

13 Q. Can we see it on the map, the one that you have in front of you?

14 A. Yes, part of it here.

15 Q. Very well. Could you encircle this location, mark it with number

16 "2" and number "2" will refer to the weapons factory.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know of any other locations --

19 MR. STAMP: With reference to the location, just to move to the

20 centre of the ELMO so we could follow it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we could see it better.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, perhaps you could mark that with a number -- that's fine.

24 Thank you.

25 Witness, do you know of any other places where there were similar

Page 15017

1 installations, similar sights in the course of the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can we see these places on the map?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can we see it on the other map?

6 MR. STAMP: Before we go into these places which counsel has led

7 the witness into, could we first establish the basis of this knowledge?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please ask more specific to the basis

9 of the knowledge for the witness during the conflict, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, s'il vous plait, M. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, thank you. Could

13 we put the overall map of Sarajevo on the ELMO.

14 Q. Witness, do you have knowledge of the other places where weapons

15 were produced?

16 A. Through Croats, Muslims and Serbs in Sarajevo, they told us about

17 it. They would be present in our units. And through the shelling of our

18 positions, through shells that didn't explode because they had been

19 produced rapidly, and not all the components had been included.

20 Q. Do I understand you well when you say that you knew about this

21 because of knowledge you obtained during the course of the war; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness, if you can see it, I would like you to show us on the map

25 that we will place in front of you --

Page 15018

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... 8.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly, thank you.

3 MR. STAMP: Could I get that number, please, the number of the

4 map.

5 THE REGISTRAR: D1778.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, can you see this map?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you see some of the sites that you mentioned a minute ago in

10 this map; yes or no?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you first of all indicate these sites to us on

13 the map.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Very well. What do why have there? Witness, could you tell us

16 what is located at those two sites? You pointed to two sites. We will

17 write it down later on. But what was there at these sites?

18 A. Yes, I can tell you.

19 Q. Could you tell me, please.

20 A. Energoinvest and the Vaso Miskin tools factory.

21 Q. Thank you. I would be grateful if you could encircle these two

22 sites. The first one that you pointed to.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. And just a minute, please. Just a minute. And the

25 second one -- just a minute. I don't think we have a number on this map.

Page 15019

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We don't have any numbers.

2 Q. Mark it with a letter "A" in the little circle to the right?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. That refers to the tools factory. And mark the

5 Energoinvest building, I think that's what it is, with the letter "B."

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what was made at these two sites?

8 A. Could I just correct something, please. At site "A" there was the

9 number "2" there.

10 Q. Very well. But we can see, and we know what we are speaking about

11 now. Thank you.

12 Witness, what was produced at the site marked with the letter "A"?

13 A. They produced mortar shells there and ammunition for infantry

14 weapons.

15 Q. Thank you. And what about the site marked with the letter "B"?

16 A. At that site, rifle-launched grenades, mines, barrels for rifles,

17 optical devices.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke about rifle-launched grenades.

19 Could you tell us what they are, exactly these notorious rifle-launched

20 grenades?

21 A. They are infantry weapons which fired from rifles with -- they

22 were fired from an automatic or semi-automatic rifle.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I am going to turn to the issue of material,

24 physical destruction, and to the extent that you have knowledge of this in

25 your area. Could you, first of all, tell us when such destruction took

Page 15020

1 place, in what period?

2 A. At the beginning of the war in 1992.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you tell us where, in

4 territorial terms, this destruction was concentrated the most?

5 A. The entire line and the Jewish cemetery settlement.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when you looked at the town from

7 your positions, was it possible for you to see mosques; yes or no?

8 A. Sometimes, you could see the tops of mosques. There are mosques

9 in Sarajevo -- there are over 200 mosques in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Yes, but my question was: Whether you could see mosques from the

11 positions that you held; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, did you receive any instructions to

14 shell these mosques; yes or no?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Did you receive any instructions to shell

17 other buildings of a cultural or religious nature; yes or no?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, now with regard to the issue of

20 civilians. If you received any instructions, what sort of instructions

21 did you receive with regard to the protection of the civilians at the time

22 of war? Had you received any instructions? What sort of instructions did

23 you receive? Can you tell us anything about this, please.

24 A. Yes, I can. We put civilians in an area which was outside the

25 combat area, but there were some civilians who were not responsible and

Page 15021

1 they returned home to take certain items, clothes, et cetera. Mothers

2 didn't want to leave their sons, et cetera, so a lot of them became

3 casualties.

4 Q. Witness, you are talking about victims on the Serbian side now, I

5 think, is that right?

6 A. Yes. I know about that side.

7 Q. Of course, of course. But that wasn't really my question. Were

8 you given instructions in your company that concerned opening fire and it

9 concerned the necessary protection that civilians should be provided with?

10 A. Yes. We didn't have any orders to fire on civilians.

11 Q. Very well. Am I to understand, for the sake of the translation,

12 that your testimony is that you were ordered not to fire on civilians?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. STAMP: Those last two questions were leading. The

16 penultimate one leading, and the last one, very leading.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you want to have things

18 clarified, it is -- I have since many times told you that the

19 clarification should not be by way of leading the witness. If you

20 understand the answer to be, although it appear on the -- it does appear

21 on the transcript as a different answer, then perhaps you could ask for

22 further clarification, but not by saying, "what in your view, the answer

23 should have been?" Or at least that is how you understood it to be the

24 right answer.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

Page 15022

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, to the extent that you have answered my previous

4 question, could you tell us how frequently, if that was the case, you were

5 issued with such instructions, with such orders?

6 A. Yes, I could explain this better. We received orders every three

7 days or every five days. Soldiers came who were leaving Sarajevo, which

8 was under the BH Army and they would come from other units and they would

9 join our -- bring our company up to strength because men who were fit for

10 military service had been wounded or had been killed.

11 Q. Very well. But as far as instructions that you may have received,

12 were these instructions given to you as frequently as the ones that you

13 have been referring to or were they less frequent or more frequent?

14 A. It all depended on the need, on what was required at the time.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am just going to confer with

17 my colleague for a minute.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the clock, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have 10

21 minutes at the most now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: For tomorrow, yes.

23 Then we will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this

24 courtroom. One moment, please.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 15023

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just allow me to write down my last annotation. I

2 can't do it outside the courtroom.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I ask Madam Registrar --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I thank you for your patience. We --

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same

7 courtroom.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

10 the 5th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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