Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15331

1 Friday, 8 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, to everyone in the courtroom.

6 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-98-29-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 I was informed that you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did some work on the

11 transcript of yesterday and the day before, and that you had no time yet

12 to just write down what exactly it was. If you would take that effort so

13 that on the basis of the small note you'll then provide to the Chamber,

14 that we'll be in a position during the break to check and to find the

15 spots so that we can pay proper attention to what bothers you in that

16 respect.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I asked

18 the Registry if I could address the Trial Chamber for five minutes, or

19 even less, for three minutes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If it's about this -- if it's about the transcript

21 issues, the Chamber would like to receive places, texts, et cetera, where

22 there is mistranslation, so that we can check it and not spend time on it

23 not being in a position to check it. If it's something different, please

24 proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's similar

Page 15332

1 but it's also different. I would appreciate it if you could have faith in

2 us. But during the break, I will try to give you the references, the

3 references, the ones that we gave you yesterday. And I'd like to say --

4 I'd like to say this now, with your permission, because we'll waste time

5 if you permit me to do so, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we must be in a position to check and to

7 verify, and we can't do that on the spot. So we'll wait for the first

8 break, and then we'll receive your short note.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. But

10 this is what I want to say, but I wasted a lot of time, a lot of time I

11 wasn't able to use for the Defence of my client. But there were errors in

12 the transcript, and this IS time I have wasted. But the Defence's rights

13 have been violated because we cannot constantly be asked to verify things

14 in the transcript. This is time that we have wasted, and this is time

15 that we can't use for the defence of our client.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not time that is wasted. If there is error

17 in the transcript, that is because making a transcript is a difficult task

18 which cannot be made without errors, and everyone in this courtroom,

19 Defence, Prosecution, Chamber, will do their utmost best, and it will take

20 some time now and then to make sure that these inevitable errors will not

21 cause any prejudice to any party. That is how the Chamber would define

22 the situation.

23 Yes, this is not a moment to open a discussion on it. I have

24 expressed the view of the Chamber after you have expressed your view on

25 the issue. Then the second thing I'd like to say: The parties are

Page 15333

1 invited -- I think I gave a few examples already when Ms. Mahindaratne

2 made objections a couple of times, that parties should limit themselves in

3 objecting to questions to substantial issues, and not on minor issues that

4 finally do not affect the substance of the testimony so that the flow of

5 evidence can continue and will not be unnecessarily interrupted.

6 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP5.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

11 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP5 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, sir. Yesterday, my last question to you concerned

18 where the tank was kept, the tank of your armoured company. And you

19 explained it was kept in the compound of the Nedzarici barracks, in the

20 last facility, about 30 to 40 metres from the faculty of theology. Are

21 the Nedzarici barracks a short distance southwest of the school for the

22 blind on Stupska Brdo?

23 A. It's, if you look at it from Alipasino Polje, I think from the

24 southwest perhaps, it's about 300 to 350 metres from the school for the

25 blind, from the school for blind children.

Page 15334

1 Q. Was the tank usually kept inside a building?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. From where would the tank fire its rounds? Where was it when it

4 fired rounds? Did it change its position, or was it normally in the same

5 place?

6 A. It had to change its position.

7 Q. Did it always stay within the barracks, or did it sometimes leave

8 the barracks to fire rounds?

9 A. It had to leave the barracks.

10 Q. Would it go all over Nedzarici to fire rounds, or would it stay in

11 particular parts of Nedzarici?

12 A. It couldn't go all over Nedzarici because the streets are very

13 small. There are private houses there. It could only use that main road.

14 We never used a tank to fire at residential buildings up there. It was

15 only used down here from the barracks where there were five or six hangars

16 in which there was nothing before the war. It was the territory of the

17 Muslim -- of the Muslim army, and it was only built after -- there was no

18 room for maneuvering with a tank.

19 Q. When you say "the main road," do you mean Aleja Bosne Srebrene

20 Street?

21 A. I'm thinking of the Aleja Branka Bujica. I don't know what that

22 street is called now.

23 Q. All right. Were there mortars kept at the barracks as well as the

24 tank?

25 A. No.

Page 15335

1 Q. How did you receive information about the targets for the tank?

2 Were the targets given by the names of buildings or map references or

3 what?

4 A. I said we didn't fire the buildings. The tank was only used in

5 area near the barracks because the demarcation line was by the barrack's

6 fence. We were by the barracks, and the Muslims army was behind where

7 there were large concrete constructions. And when the army from our

8 positions observed where the enemy was firing from, then we would call for

9 someone to neutralise that fire.

10 Q. Who would make that call for neutralising fire? Were they the

11 local commanders in Nedzarici?

12 A. No, since the area was not very large, it was a small lodge, and

13 the phones were used. Old military phones were used, and they would call

14 people from the line directly, the people who were in danger because of

15 the enemy fire.

16 Q. You said earlier "we didn't fire buildings." Did you, apart from

17 the Oslobodjenje building, fire a tank at any stage at buildings, that is,

18 positions, military positions, of the enemy in buildings?

19 A. No, we couldn't have done so because the tank would have had to go

20 right in front of our lines, and it would have been a very easy target.

21 Q. Were there not lines of sight from areas in the middle of

22 Nedzarici to high-rise buildings surrounding Nedzarici?

23 A. Can I answer that question? Can I answer?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were, where the primary

Page 15336

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15337

1 school was, but all the routes leading to the primary school -- well

2 only -- well vehicles could barely get to it. Perhaps a van could reach

3 it, but a tank would have reached it with difficulty.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, an objection,

6 but in order to -- no objection, Mr. President. But could the witness

7 speak a little more slowly so that I can verify whether the English

8 transcript corresponds to what he is saying in his mother tongue, which is

9 the Serbian language. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you speak not too quickly. I would say,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that if the transcribers can follow, that would be the

12 right speed. And I'm, for reasons of time, I think it's not appropriate

13 to ask the witness to speak slower.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. When you were called upon to assist other troops in Nedzarici with

17 the tank, I take it that the tank would fire at physical objects, be they

18 buildings or something else. Can you tell us what type of targets you hit

19 with the tank, apart from the Oslobodjenje building?

20 A. I said that we fired from the tank -- only from the Aleja Branka

21 Bujica because that's the road it was able to use. This happened on two

22 occasions. Oslobodjenje was fired at on two occasions with two shells on

23 each occasion.

24 Q. Please stop. What I'm asking you is this: Do you remember

25 yesterday you told us that the tank was used to fire some shells, to shoot

Page 15338

1 some shells, at the Oslobodjenje building, and that was in June of 1992?

2 A. The second half of June, yes. With two shells. That's what I

3 said.

4 Q. All right. Now, you did that in order to eliminate some sniper

5 positions in that building. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Did you use the tank to eliminate sniper positions in

8 other buildings at any stage?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you use the tank to eliminate troop positions in other

11 buildings at any stage?

12 A. That's what I was explaining. Not in the buildings; only along

13 the demarcation line, the one that ran by the barracks because that's the

14 only place where there was room for manoeuvre and you could see enemy

15 trenches.

16 Q. So did you fire at the trenches or did you fire at barricades or

17 trees or what?

18 A. We fired at the trenches.

19 Q. So a tank was used to fire at trenches. Is that what you say?

20 A. Yes, only at one of the front lines.

21 Q. All right. What else did you fire at, apart from the Oslobodjenje

22 building and the trench or trenches at one of the front lines? What else?

23 A. Nowhere else, nothing else from the tank.

24 Q. Did you ever receive orders to fire at targets in the city?

25 A. No, that would have been impossible.

Page 15339

1 Q. Did you ever receive orders to fire at any target outside

2 Nedzarici?

3 A. No, Nedzarici was surrounded by high buildings. It was entirely

4 surrounded, and it was impossible for us to see anything.

5 Q. All right. Now, yesterday -- I'll withdraw that. After the

6 Oslobodjenje building collapsed, did it continue to be used by the ABiH

7 for sniping; that is, amongst the ruins of the building?

8 A. No, it was no longer possible for them to climb up to the middle

9 part where the lift was, et cetera.

10 Q. What about from the ruins in the lower levels? Were those areas

11 used by snipers?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Was the building used after it collapsed -- I'll withdraw that.

14 At the time that the building was shelled, was it used to produce the

15 daily newspaper in Sarajevo?

16 A. I wasn't able to know that. We couldn't see civilians moving

17 around that building, not at all.

18 Q. You simply didn't know. Is that the position?

19 A. Yes, we didn't know.

20 Q. Did you hear from any sources that the newspaper continued to be

21 produced throughout the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You never heard that?

24 A. No. We were quite simply in hell. We didn't have electricity,

25 and we didn't have any water. We were unable to follow --

Page 15340

1 Q. Have you heard it since, that it was produced on a daily basis, on

2 a regular basis, throughout the war?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection

4 because the witness is being asked what he found out after -- well, I

5 don't know after how much time, but after the events concerned, so this

6 objection concerns the relevance.

7 MR. IERACE: It goes to credibility, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

10 Prosecution's explanation is very brief. Why --

11 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to discuss in the presence of the

12 witness the subject of the last -- the basis Mr. Ierace has laid for his

13 response to your objection.

14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of

16 the courtroom for one second.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just while that's being done, to save

19 time, could Madam Registrar please get ready to show to the witness

20 Exhibit D1674. And secondly, could we have access to the videotape so

21 that we could provide it to the audiovisual room and have it put at the

22 appropriate position.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is the videotape in the technical room?

24 MR. IERACE: It is.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you wanted to expand on --

Page 15341

1 Mr. Ierace has told us that he wants to ask this question in order to test

2 the credibility of the witness. You said it was a short explanation.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I don't

4 know if that is the only explanation that Mr. Ierace has, but if it's his

5 only explanation, I don't see what could be inferred from the fact that

6 perhaps ten years after the events, a witness discovered something.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as I understand it in the area, it's a

9 well-known fact that throughout the war, the newspaper didn't miss an

10 issue. And after the building collapsed, the staff continued to produce

11 the newspaper from the ground level beneath the ruins. And that meant, of

12 course, that civilians were travelling to that part of the city which is

13 immediately adjacent to the area where this witness says he was operating

14 from. The particular relevance of the question is if he says that he's

15 never heard that, and later in the fullness of the evidence of the trial

16 it emerges that that's incredible, that that's unlikely then that will

17 assist the Trial Chamber in forming a view of the credibility of the

18 witness on issues such as those. Thank you..

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As Mr. Ierace has developed

22 this argument, I'd like to respond to it. When Mr. Ierace says that

23 everyone in the area was aware of this, everyone in the area was aware of

24 this on the Muslim side perhaps. This witness just said that they knew

25 nothing about it, that it was hell, they had no electricity, they had no

Page 15342

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15343

1 water either. It's obvious they didn't know what was happening in the

2 ruins of the building. If the witness said that at the time of the events

3 he didn't know, then he didn't know at the time of the events. And to

4 find out -- to know whether he had found this out later on has nothing to

5 do with the credibility of the witness. It's possible to know things five

6 or six years later but not to have known them at the time of the events.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.

9 The objection is denied, although it's not a subject that should be

10 explored in full detail.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.

13 Q. Have you heard it since that the newspaper was issued regularly

14 throughout the war?

15 A. After the signing of the Dayton agreement, I went to Novi Sad. I

16 worked in a friend's restaurant. After I returned, I found out about

17 this, that they worked in the Oslobodjenje building. But in what

18 capacity, how, and who, I don't know.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown D1764, and

21 perhaps Mr. Usher could move the ELMO slightly so that I could see the

22 witness.

23 Q. Sir, please look at the map alongside you. And with the pointer

24 alongside your glass of water, could you please point to the position on

25 the map, if you see it, of the barracks at Nedzarici that you've told us

Page 15344

1 about where the tank was kept.

2 A. The barracks is here, so this part here.

3 Q. All right.

4 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness points to an area to the

5 southeast of the dark black line in the vicinity -- in an area that is

6 between the dark black line and the road marked on the map as Aleja Bosne

7 Srebrene Street, commencing just above the circle placed on the map. It

8 has a number in it which I can't read on the video.

9 Q. Would you please place the pointer back on the map.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. All right. And would you also point to the faculty of theology.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 MR. IERACE: All right. Witness indicates the faculty of theology

14 which appears on the map with a circle around it. The are of the barracks

15 is on the other side of Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street, between that street

16 and the thick black line slightly to the north. Thank you.

17 Q. Now, the main road that you told us about that the tank would

18 travel on, would you please point to that.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the road indicated on the map as

21 Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street.

22 Thank you, that might be returned.

23 Q. Now, did you ever go into the buildings at the faculty of

24 theology?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15345

1 Q. Do you agree that there are four buildings that form that complex?

2 A. No, it's one building. It has got four corners, and there's a

3 park in the middle. It's a square, in fact. Only part of it, at the

4 lower part towards Igman, there's only that part there. But it's like a

5 square.

6 Q. All right. Given that you refer to it as one building, did that

7 building have a ground level, and then three levels above the ground

8 level?

9 A. Part of the building, yes.

10 Q. Did you ever go, during the war, to the top of that building, that

11 is, to the roof?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever go to the top level of the building, that is,

14 immediately under the roof?

15 A. Perhaps on a couple of occasions.

16 Q. All right. And did you ever see any snipers in that building,

17 that is, soldiers with rifles shooting at targets outside Nedzarici,

18 targets on the other side of the confrontation lines?

19 A. No. Considering that I knew the situation in Nedzarici very well,

20 we did not have any sniper weapons.

21 Q. What do you mean by a "sniper weapon"?

22 A. Anything which has an optical sight on it. A hunting rifle can

23 also be a sniping weapon -- a sniper weapon, in my opinion.

24 Q. All right. Were there ever snipers, to your knowledge, that came

25 into Nedzarici to operate on that territory?

Page 15346

1 A. Throughout the war, nobody came to Nedzarici, not to assist us.

2 Only people who came from Zenica. They were fleeing Zenica via Kiseljak,

3 and they were positioned there as ordinary soldiers. They were going to

4 the trench. But for anyone to come and help us, assist us, to be there

5 for ten days, a fortnight, a month, to be in the trench, to be with us, to

6 assist us, that didn't happen.

7 Q. When did those people come from Zenica? What month, what year?

8 A. I don't know exactly the dates. It was in 1992 because the Muslim

9 soldiers forced us -- forced them out of Zenica, and then they would pay a

10 thousand Deutschmarks to be let through. And then the Croats made them

11 also pay money, and then they would come to our area.

12 Q. So the question was as to the date, not the circumstances. And if

13 you don't know the month, do you know the year that happened?

14 A. It was in 1992. It was the beginning of the war, because they

15 were fleeing Zenica with their families, with their wives and children.

16 Q. Now, if you don't know the answer to this, please say so. Was

17 Nedzarici, I suggest to you, was a particularly sensitive part of the

18 confrontation line around Sarajevo from the perspective of the Bosnian

19 Serb forces?

20 A. I don't understand the question, what do you mean "sensitive"?

21 Q. What I mean by that is it was a particularly vulnerable part of

22 the line for Bosnian Serb forces.

23 A. Because we were surrounded. Probably, yes.

24 Q. And you tell us that at no stage during the war did you receive

25 the assistance of outside forces. Is that correct?

Page 15347

1 A. Yes, I state this.

2 Q. Now, you've told us what you regard as a sniper rifle, a rifle

3 that has a scope. Were there soldiers of the Bosnian Serb army in

4 Nedzarici who, with rifles, positioned themselves so that they could see

5 areas on the other side of the confrontation lines? Firstly, was that the

6 case?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You're telling us that there were not Bosnian Serb soldiers who

9 positioned themselves with rifles so that they could see areas on the

10 other side of the confrontation lines. Is that correct? That didn't

11 happen?

12 A. The lines that were established in 1992, people went to those

13 lines, and they stood guard. Where they were, there was no movement

14 during the war. We only lost one part of the territory in Nedzarici

15 during the war because we couldn't stand sniper fire.

16 Q. All right. Perhaps you misunderstand the question. I'll come

17 back to that.

18 You told us yesterday that the tank that fired on the school for

19 the blind where your brother was, was firing from Brijesce Brdo. Is that

20 the case?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us how you know that, where it was firing from? Did

23 someone see it firing?

24 A. I told you that my brother had told me this.

25 Q. Have you any idea how your brother knew that?

Page 15348

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15349

1 A. When he was on that position, on one occasion, they saw when they

2 were not being targeted, where there was a large fire, flash of fire,

3 which came out of a barrel of a tank. That came out, and they also saw

4 the traces of the caterpillar wheels in the soil.

5 Q. Did he tell you where he was exactly at the school for the blind

6 when he saw that?

7 A. Ground floor, ground floor, which is in the middle of the

8 building.

9 Q. What weaponry did you see at the school for the blind when you

10 went there during the war? Apart from pistols, what else did you see?

11 A. Automatic rifles, only with the fold-up butts, and one hand-held

12 rocket launcher.

13 Q. Did you see any mortars?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You told us yesterday that you did not go upstairs into any of the

16 buildings at the school for the blind during the war. You said the reason

17 you didn't do that was that you couldn't do that because there was a

18 broken-glass partition where the steps were. So if you went up the steps,

19 you could be seen from Vojnicko Polje. Is that correct?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not

21 remember -- I do not recall that in the testimony of the witness we spoke

22 of glass partition, but I can check.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's my recollection that the witness said so.

24 So please check before, and try to find it.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No, he did say. I

Page 15350

1 apologise.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember also yesterday when we saw the video, we saw some

6 blankets being used for protection, visual blinds? And you explained that

7 blankets and boards were used for sniper cover. Do you remember seeing

8 that in the video yesterday, not in relation to the school for the blind

9 but some other area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Incidentally, was that area in Nedzarici somewhere, yes or no?

12 A. Yes, it was in Nedzarici, in the street where my house is. And

13 it's not on the very first front line. It's about 120 metres from the

14 front line.

15 Q. Now, why could that not have been done at the school for the blind

16 to give protection to soldiers going up the stairs to the top floors of

17 the buildings? Why could they have not erected a blanket or some wood so

18 that they could not be seen from Vojnicko Polje?

19 A. I said that they had made premises for accommodation on the ground

20 floor of the building. There were several bunkers outside of the house,

21 so there was no need for them to go upstairs. I don't know what the

22 effect would have been because even they would be hit -- they were hit on

23 the ground floor with sniper bullets.

24 Q. Well, let me make sure I understand what you're saying. So it's

25 not a question of they were incapable of going upstairs, but rather they

Page 15351

1 didn't need to go upstairs for defence purposes. Is that the case?

2 A. Yes, because the army could only come across ground. We were

3 defending ourselves from attacks.

4 Q. Would it not have been better to defend yourselves from attacks if

5 you had a safe position above ground level, so close to the front line and

6 at such a prominent, extended point of the front line?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a

8 question which is completely speculative, and we're going to ask the

9 witness whether he's got competencies of a strategist if he can answer

10 such questions.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, putting to one side the

12 inappropriateness of saying that in presence of the witness and within the

13 hearing of the witness, this is of such basic, fundamental, and I might

14 say an obvious nature, that one does not need any particular

15 qualifications as a strategist to respond to it.

16 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.

18 MR. IERACE:

19 Q. I'll repeat the question to you. Would it not have been -- before

20 I repeat the question --

21 MR. IERACE: Madam Registrar, could you please prepare to be shown

22 to the witness shortly Exhibit P3279 OA, photograph ending with the number

23 3. Thank you.

24 Q. I'll repeat the question to you.

25 Would it not have been better from the point of view of defending

Page 15352

1 yourselves from attacks if you had a safe position above ground level so

2 close to the front line and at such a prominent extended point of the

3 front line?

4 A. In my opinion, no.

5 Q. You say it was unnecessary?

6 A. No. What I said, and I answered this question before, that we

7 were at risk from the ground. They could only come from the ground. The

8 soldiers could come across ground because it was on the ground that the

9 trenches were, the enemy trenches.

10 Q. If you had greater height, you could see more into the trenches,

11 could you not?

12 A. No. These were extremely deep trenches, well over the height of a

13 man. And bunkers are bunkers, and you know what they are like. They are

14 like dams. More or less they were -- they served in the army.

15 Q. If you had greater height, you could see further than you could

16 from the ground, couldn't you?

17 A. Probably, yes.

18 Q. If you had greater height, you could perhaps see over barricades,

19 couldn't you?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. You don't know because --

22 A. Personally, I don't know that. Personally, I don't know that.

23 Q. You personally don't know, I take it, because as you tell us you

24 never went up there to find out. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15353

1 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown Exhibit P3279 OA.

2 Q. While that's being prepared, how many buildings were there in the

3 school for the blind? Just one or more than one?

4 A. I think three.

5 Q. All right. Look at the photograph to your right, do you see those

6 three buildings? If, so please point to them with the pointer.

7 A. This is one building.

8 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the building within the circle of

9 the two circles, the one on the right. The circles being in the top

10 left-hand corner of the photograph.

11 Q. Please continue.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the building in the second circle

14 which is immediately to the left.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the second building. And

16 this is the third building.

17 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the building to the right of the

18 two circled buildings. Thank you.

19 Q. Now --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, perhaps I do not see it well on my

21 screen, but it seems to me that the first two buildings the witness

22 pointed at were both within one circle containing a number 1 in it, rather

23 than in two circles.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, I see. The image on

25 my screen could be either of those, and I accept that it's one inside the

Page 15354

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15355

1 larger circle. In fact, I know it's the second circle, but beneath the

2 larger circle with the one.

3 So correct the transcript, the first two buildings indicated by

4 the witness were both within a circle with the number one in it.

5 Q. Sir, do you see a building with a circle around it and I think a

6 number 2 in that circle? Do you see that?

7 A. I see that there is a circle with a number 2, but I can't clearly

8 see what it is.

9 Q. All right. Now, if you look towards the top of the photograph, to

10 the right of the three buildings we see a green area, perhaps a field. Is

11 that correct? Perhaps you could point to it.

12 A. You mean this?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes. These were sport fields of the institute for blind children.

15 Q. Just behind the field, we can see what appears to be a line of

16 trees. Do you see that?

17 A. You mean this here, in the distance?

18 Q. Yes, yes. I'm sorry.

19 A. Not a line of trees. These are orchard fruit trees around houses,

20 ordinary apple trees. It's not a line of trees.

21 Q. That orchard, was that on the Bosnian Serb army side of the

22 confrontation line in 1993?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. On this photograph, do you see the old people's home?

25 A. Old people's home is here, about here.

Page 15356

1 Q. Can you actually see any of the buildings on the photograph of the

2 old people's home, any of the building?

3 A. The photograph is very unclear. I think the old people's home is

4 here, right here. Because next to it I see a house of a friend of mine,

5 and I can see that his house is clear. The old people's home is a lot

6 bigger, and it should be about there.

7 Q. All right. As you look at the photograph, was the old people's

8 home to the left of your friend's house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yesterday --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, for the transcript, the witness pointed

12 at the extreme top left corner of the photograph.

13 MR. IERACE: Immediately --

14 JUDGE ORIE: And talked about the old people's home.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes.

16 Q. Yesterday, I asked you a question about where the video we saw

17 yesterday might have been filmed from. And you said perhaps it could have

18 been filmed from the old people's home. Having regard to the high-rise

19 building we see in front of the old people's home as one looks at the

20 photograph, do you agree with me that it's most unlikely the video -- the

21 part of the video which showed the student hostels was filmed from that

22 building?

23 A. Again, I repeat, it's possible, and I'm sure that it's possible to

24 photograph it. It looks here as if it's not there, the old people's home,

25 as if it doesn't exist on this photograph. It's also a building with

Page 15357

1 three floors.

2 Q. All right. Coming back to the orchard, were there buildings

3 behind the orchard as you look at the photograph, although we cannot see

4 the buildings?

5 A. There were private houses, individuals houses, up to the height of

6 two storeys.

7 Q. And were those houses on the Bosnian Serb army side of the

8 confrontation line during the war?

9 A. There were on our side, yes.

10 Q. In relation to the video that we saw yesterday, do you agree that

11 all of it was taken from somewhere on the Bosnian Serb army side of the

12 confrontation lines in Nedzarici?

13 A. You mean the entire video recording, everything that we saw?

14 Q. Yes. What I mean is that the camera was positioned at various

15 places in Nedzarici during the filming. Is that the case?

16 A. Recordings were from different parts of Nedzarici. I can show you

17 on the map exactly where that is. It wasn't all filmed from one place --

18 Q. No, no. But clearly it was filmed from different places, but were

19 all of those different places somewhere in Nedzarici on territory

20 controlled during the war by the Bosnian Serb army?

21 A. Yes. Probably.

22 Q. All right.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have some still photographs which

24 we've produced since yesterday afternoon from the video. Perhaps they

25 could be -- one of those at this stage could be -- I'll withdraw that.

Page 15358

1 I'll leave that for a moment.

2 Might the witness be shown Exhibit P3279 NN; in particular, two

3 photographs ending in the numbers 09 -- excuse me -- and 11. Perhaps both

4 those photographs could be shown to the witness.

5 Q. Sir, would you please look at those two photographs side by side.

6 Firstly, I'd like to let you know that these are photographs taken after

7 the war ended. Drawing your attention firstly to photograph ending in

8 number 11, would you agree that in that photograph we can see the

9 high-rise buildings of Alipasino Polje? Yes or no.

10 A. In Alipasino Polje, in the distance.

11 Q. Yes. And on the right, we can see Lukavicka Cesta, that is

12 between the intersection in the immediate foreground going off to the

13 right?

14 A. Yes, this is Lukavicka Cesta.

15 Q. Please point to that street.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you. And the road going off to the left is the main road

18 you referred to earlier. That goes down towards Ante Babica Street. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Immediately in front of the intersection, we have the shopping

22 centre or the -- yes, the shopping centre. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, this is the shopping centre.

24 Q. All right. And do you agree with me that the camera which took

25 this photograph appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of the school for

Page 15359

1 the blind, having regard to the intersection that you've identified?

2 A. This building here is very well known to me. Between the school

3 for the blind and this building, there used to be a house before the war,

4 and it's not there now.

5 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

6 Q. It appears -- it's obvious from the photograph that whenever this

7 photograph was taken, the building there was a brand-new one. Is that

8 correct?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,

10 I'm sorry, but we have an important point to make. The witness just

11 showed something in the transcript on the screen, that is, and he said

12 before the war, there was a house there. And that should be entered into

13 the transcript. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness just pointed at a house with a red roof

15 which appears approximately in the middle of the photograph, to the left,

16 indicated that between that house and the school of the blind, and at that

17 moment, he pointed away from that house in the direction of the camera

18 point of view. So not seen from the camera, behind that house, but in

19 front of that house. He said that between the house visible and in front

20 of that house, in between that house and the school of the blind, there

21 had been another house before the war.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. Was -- first of all, perhaps you could answer the question I asked

25 earlier. The building which appears in the photograph with the red and

Page 15360

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15361

1 black roof appears to be newly constructed, indeed, not even finished, at

2 the time of the taking of the photograph. Is that correct?

3 A. Mr. President, there is something I would like to say about this

4 house, but would it be possible to go into private session?

5 JUDGE ORIE: If there is a specific issue you'd like to deal with

6 in private session, we'll go into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15362

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE:

5 Q. All right, now looking at the second photograph, you'll notice

6 that with a telephoto lens, we have a close-up of the portion of the view

7 above the black and red roof showing the intersection of Aleja Bosne

8 Srebrene Street and Ante Babica Street. Do you agree with that?

9 A. Let me just have a look.

10 Yes.

11 Q. All right. Now, I want to point out to you a few features of this

12 particular photograph. I'd be grateful if you could take the pointer and

13 point to these features as I mention them so that I can be sure that you

14 are following them. Firstly, point to Ante Babica Street, if you could

15 run the pointer along that street.

16 A. That's this street here.

17 Q. Now, do you see above the trees slightly to the left of the bigger

18 of the trees, one can just make out a light post, apparently on Ante

19 Babica Street. If you could firstly point to the trees, to the left of

20 the photograph.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Thank you. Move your pointer slightly to the left of the tallest

23 tree.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Just there, do you see there what appears to be a

Page 15363

1 light post?

2 A. That is a light post, yes.

3 Q. All right. Now do you know if that light post was there during

4 the war?

5 A. They would install these sorts of light posts in the part of

6 Sarajevo that I used to -- that I lived in. These are new light posts. It

7 wasn't there during the war for sure. Maybe some other light post was

8 there, but this one wasn't.

9 Q. All right. But before the war, were there light posts of a

10 similar height in Sarajevo, parts of Sarajevo?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. All right, now, move your pointer slightly to the right of that

15 same tree. And do you see some green grass. Bring it down to the grass.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you. And do you see what appears to be a ground-level

18 entrance to the -- one of the Alipasino Polje high-rises. Do you see

19 that?

20 A. That's what it looks like, whether it's an entrance or the area

21 where the rubbish is left, I don't know. But perhaps it's even a shop

22 because there is some sort of inscription above it.

23 Q. In any event, we see a thickish white horizontal section, and

24 beneath it, slightly beneath it towards the middle, we can make out what

25 appears to be part of a wall, at least there is a whitish area on the

Page 15364

1 front of the wall. Do you see that? Perhaps you could put your pointer

2 on it.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. I think this is it.

6 Q. Yes, thank you.

7 Immediately to the left of the entrance, we see a light-coloured

8 column, vertical column, of the building with one window on each level.

9 Would you please point to that.

10 A. Could you explain that to me, please. I don't understand where.

11 Q. Put the pointer back on the entrance.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. And now move it ever so slightly to the left.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Now extend it upwards, directly up.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you. Do you see that column which has the windows?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the column.

20 Q. Now immediately above the entrance and immediately to the right of

21 that column we see a wider area of the facade being of a slightly darker

22 colour. Please point to that.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Perhaps the ELMO could zoom back so we can see where the witness

25 is pointing. Thank you.

Page 15365

1 And then immediately to the right of that, we see another vertical

2 light-coloured column similar to the earlier one. Please point to that.

3 A. Where the balconies are. You mean over here.

4 Q. Between the balconies, slightly to the left of the balconies, we

5 can see a whitish edge. Move the pointer.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Thank you for that. Now leave those photographs there if you

8 will. And at this stage can we see the video from the Oslobodjenje

9 building through to the end of the portion which shows us the student

10 hostels. Thank you. And then it could be stopped.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could stop the video there, in fact. Thank

13 you.

14 Mr. President, at this stage I'd like to distribute some

15 photographs, being stills taken from the video.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

17 MR. IERACE: I have one colour --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We object, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please explain why.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, we aren't sure that this

22 was developed from this photograph. That's the first thing. And

23 secondly, we have already had numerous problems regarding the reproduction

24 of material. We saw this in the case of maps. We saw that reproduced

25 maps don't have the same references. And I wouldn't like to have an

Page 15366

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15367

1 extract which is made and we don't know how, an extract of material that

2 we have given, that one continues to ask the witness technical questions.

3 Since I see that these questions concern precisions. This procedure

4 doesn't seem to be one that is possible to us. We can't use technical

5 means in an unacceptable manner.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would first like to see the photographs

7 before.

8 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have been

10 provided with a coloured copy, because I see that there's a difference

11 between the colour and the black and white copies.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist, the only other

13 coloured copies I have at this stage are two photocopies of that coloured

14 print. I'm happy to provide one of those to my learned colleague.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no problem in Mr. Piletta-Zanin having

16 a look at the -- I would say the best copy available, this one. So if

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin would have a look at it. And perhaps ...

18 The Chamber will concentrate for a while on the slightly less

19 quality so the Defence is in a position to look at the best photograph.

20 Perhaps meanwhile, Mr. Ierace, you can explain to us how and by whom this

21 still was made.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes. Yesterday afternoon, after court, the copy of

23 the video that was disclosed by the Defence to the Prosecution was taken

24 to Mr. Zoran Lesic who is an earlier witness in these proceedings. And he

25 took the video, and with his machinery, produced these prints from various

Page 15368

1 positions on the video film. I have some more to come. I received them

2 back from Mr. Lesic late yesterday afternoon. And in due course, we'll

3 get some more colour copies done of these and provide it to the Trial

4 Chamber and to the Defence.

5 Mr. President, the reason I've done this is as I mentioned to you

6 yesterday, when you look at the video on a monitor with a VHS, it's a lot

7 clearer than it is on the courtroom monitors. I don't know that the

8 photographs are any quantum leap from what we see on the screen, but I

9 think they are a little bit better.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact, you asked us to look at the

11 video in a better quality than appears on our screen, and therefore you

12 extract it.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have two problems, two

17 basic problems there. The first one is whether one can know if on the

18 basis of one document that one party provided, whether it's possible to

19 make a patchwork on this basis, cut it up, et cetera. And with regard to

20 this, I think it's very dangerous to manipulate in a certain sense, in

21 inverted commas, documents that have been provided by one of the parties.

22 And secondly, Mr. President, is that this example demonstrates very well

23 the fact that the forces are not equal. We would never had the material

24 possibility of carrying out such an operation with our own documents and

25 to present situations which are totally legible or clear to the witness.

Page 15369

1 The Prosecution has means at its disposal, but this isn't a reason to

2 permit it to edit things in such a way on the basis of our documents. The

3 Defence could never do such a thing. And for this reason, a document is a

4 document, and you can't just cut it up into little pieces like this, take

5 it out of its context.

6 And the other reason is that this was never possible for us to do.

7 We were never able to do this with elements from the Prosecution. We used

8 a banking system. I can put it like this, with regard to documents.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin could keep

10 his voice down or take his headphones off and whisper.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there has been a repeated order

12 not to speak in your own language in the presence of the witness, not

13 under the control of the Chamber. I'm just --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was speaking

15 French, but why should I speak in English now? [In English] If I cannot

16 use my language, I will do it with pleasure, but I do not see why I

17 shouldn't use my own language.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has ordered you

19 several times, the Defence, not to speak aloud in their own language. You

20 may speak our own language just as much as you want during all the times,

21 but not so loud that the witness might be able to hear what you say.

22 That's the ruling, and you should obey to that ruling.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in French. He doesn't

24 understand French.

25 JUDGE ORIE: To whom were you speaking Mr. Piletta-Zanin? To whom

Page 15370

1 were you speaking French, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To no one.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You were speaking aloud at a level of noise that

4 could be heard by the witness in a language, as far as I understand at

5 this moment, which was not a language the Chamber or the other party can

6 understand. And we ordered you several times not to do so. I take it

7 when you communicate with Ms. Pilipovic, that you do that in the B/C/S

8 language, and that's what you are not allowed to do at this volume.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's the ruling you should obey.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00. And

13 Mr. Ierace, yes.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could hand up the other

15 photographs at this stage. It might save time, to Your Honours so --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that we can see. Of course, we cannot easily

17 compare them with the video unless we would have a copy of the video as

18 well. Yes, if there would be a copy of the video available as well so we

19 can use our time as good as possible to identify. Are there any ...

20 At this moment, we do not need the video and the other

21 photographs, Mr. Ierace.

22 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you were able

Page 15371

1 to identify the spots on which you'd like to address the Chamber. We

2 would like to receive the locations first, and then read it, and then

3 hear. Because very often, there's some confusion because we are not

4 prepared. So there's no way not to discuss or not to give you an

5 opportunity to raise the issue, but rather, we would rather first see the

6 places so that we can first read what's in the transcript in order to

7 better understand your objections or submissions. That is the issue. And

8 perhaps it would even be good if the -- we could make, if you have

9 identified the places and the words, to give that also to the Prosecution

10 so that they also can prepare and that we can smoothly discuss the matter

11 once we have oriented ourselves on the problem. That's the first issue.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, with

13 pleasure. But now, what I want to say is that this is page 1527 [As

14 interpreted].

15 JUDGE ORIE: Of today?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We are

17 speaking, Mr. President, of the period where I said that the witness

18 clearly had said "never," "nikada," in Serbian, and this is what I am

19 speaking about.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about yesterday because you asked for

21 the tapes of yesterday and the day before yesterday. Yesterday, page

22 1527, as I understand, yes, the word "never." Yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, the page is false,

24 Mr. President. With all due respect, I said 15297.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's now 15297. That's the page. Is there any line

Page 15372

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15373

1 number?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The line is 13.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's about the word "never." Yes. And any

4 other?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I can start, if you wish.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, we first want to read what is in there, in the

7 transcript of yesterday, and then we'll hear your argument. So we'll

8 first read what we -- yes. So we'll concentrate on page 15297, and then

9 we'll hear from you. Is that B/C/S version or is that -- no, we have no

10 B/C/S transcript. Is that English or French?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Both, Mr. President. It is

12 the verbal transcript, so-called, of the B/C/S, and then we have the

13 English transcript, and probably in the French as well which I didn't have

14 time to hear.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps the Prosecution during the next

16 break check on whether they find a similar in the original, perhaps, with

17 the help of a translator. And if they would agree, then we don't have to

18 spend any more time to it, that the word "never" has appeared. If you

19 would not agree, then we have to discuss the matter. Yes. Okay, we'll do

20 that, then. Deal with it after the break.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so that it can

22 be done, Mr. Ierace has to have access to the Serbian transcript.

23 JUDGE ORIE: But that's -- the most important thing is what has

24 been said. So what we should hear is the -- what is said in B/C/S. And I

25 do not see any reason why we could not check that during the break.

Page 15374

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Mr. President, indeed. So

4 that everyone can save time, may I just state here in four words what the

5 witness said, in four words, not in the brief way, for the Serb booth, but

6 in four words -- thank you. It has now been interpreted, in four words

7 the witness said "he was never stationed." He was never stationed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You used the B/C/S words, and the translation will

9 tell us what they -- yes. You said four words in B/C/S, and we'll then

10 hear the translation.

11 Could you please repeat them for the translators.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] "He was never stationed."

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction, if it was about a

14 tank, then it is "it was never stationed."

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask, again, because I can listen only to

16 one language at one time, also to hear the French translation so that I

17 can write it down.

18 Could you please repeat what you just translated.

19 Yes.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a

21 mistake here in the French interpretation now because that's where we have

22 to be very precise. The witness never said "I was never stationed there."

23 I'm going to repeat the four words, mean the following: "It was never

24 stationed." And we were speaking of the tank, just to remind you, not of

25 the witness.

Page 15375

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So -- now, that's clear now.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And, Mr. President, after

3 Mr. Ierace can check this, could I please make a very, very brief

4 submission so that we can all avoid, and particularly the Chamber, to

5 waste more time on these matters.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... that's neither

7 of the parties is going to tell the other party how to save time. This is

8 a ruling from now on. The Chamber is very well aware that a lot of time

9 is lost now and then and is wasted now and then. And it does not assist

10 the Chamber to hear where one party thinks that the other is wasting time.

11 Chamber is fully aware of where this happens.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is it the same issue or

14 another issue?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not

16 what I said, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's what I said.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there another issue in respect

20 of these four words to be raised?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'd like to say why our

24 rights have been offended, but if I cannot, then I won't.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can do the last two minutes

Page 15376

1 before the next break.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One minute will not be enough.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I said two minutes. We'll give a decision on the

4 objection of the Defence on the use of a still of a videotape. The

5 Chamber has carefully considered the argument raised by the Defence. The

6 Chamber agrees with the Defence that one should be very careful if work is

7 done on a specific object such as a tape to make a still out of it. On

8 the basis of the explanation given by Mr. Ierace and on the basis of our

9 own observation, the Chamber has at this moment no reason not to accept

10 that the photograph presented is a still of the videotape. The argument

11 about the context, the Chamber considers that the context of this

12 photograph is still available in the tape because that is still there.

13 The Chamber also has carefully considered the equality of arms involved

14 and raised by the Defence. The Chamber is -- finds it very important to

15 keep a close eye on the equality of arms, and as demonstrated yesterday,

16 where the Defence felt that they might have no access to audiotapes, and

17 where the Chamber tried to assist the Defence as good as it could, the

18 Chamber is of the opinion that if at -- in a similar situation the Defence

19 would need a still of a videotape, it always can address the Chamber and

20 the Chamber will do whatever the Chamber can to put the Defence in the

21 same position. And therefore, to see whether such a still can be

22 available to the Defence as well.

23 The objection is denied, but the Chamber thought it important to

24 give a bit more detail the reasons why the objection was denied.

25 You may proceed, Mr. Ierace, if the witness has been escorted into

Page 15377

1 the courtroom again.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, we wanted to

5 know how much time has the Prosecution got left because we would also like

6 this point to be respected. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yesterday -- you may escort the witness into

8 the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 There have been considerable objections. I'll consider

11 together -- I'll ask further information to the registrar, and I'll

12 consider the matters together with the other Judges in the Chamber.

13 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. To save time later on,

15 could I alert Madam Registrar that at some point I may require these two

16 photographs: P3259, just that plain exhibit number. I think there were

17 two photographs attached to it. Thank you.

18 Might the witness be shown the still from the video. I think the

19 exhibit number of that is P3761.

20 THE USHER: There is no picture on the witness's monitor.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do not see anything on my monitor at this

22 moment.

23 Yes, I now find a -- the Judges have the photograph on their

24 screen now. Is that true for the parties as well? Then we can continue.

25 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you.

Page 15378

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15379

1 Q. Sir, I would like you to compare the photograph in front of you to

2 the photographs you looked at earlier. In particular, the telephoto

3 photograph. By looking at both photographs, are you able to identify on

4 this new photograph the ground entrance to the high-rise buildings at

5 Alipasino Polje? I should say "a ground entrance" to one of the high-rise

6 buildings in Alipasino Polje.

7 A. It is a very unclear picture, but I can see two identical

8 entrances.

9 Q. All right. Would you please point to them.

10 A. One. Two. Second one.

11 Q. Okay. Witness, would you take a marker pen --

12 MR. IERACE: Is it blue or black, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Blue is for the Prosecution.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

15 Q. And circle the two, what appear to be the two entrances.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you. Now, I appreciate the image is not very clear. Do

18 there appear to be some roofs between the video camera and the entrances,

19 just beneath the entrances?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the quality of

21 what we have been given, the quality of the picture on the screen, does

22 not allow us to prepare for this line of questioning. I thought it would

23 be just good to have this in the transcript. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We certainly would have preferred to have the

25 photographs, the original coloured photographs. If there's any need, you

Page 15380

1 can always ask to inspect them, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The quality is, of

2 course, also limited because of the source not being completely clear.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. IERACE:

5 Q. Do there appear to be roofs in the image immediately beneath the

6 entrances?

7 A. I can't see it clearly.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would like the witness to now see

10 another photograph taken in the same circumstances, P3759. And that one

11 before the witness at the moment might now be removed, along with the

12 other photographs. They can be removed as well.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just

14 like to make one observation. We had a break. During the break, we could

15 have had a look at this photograph. And this was not the case. That was

16 not done. And this is an ambush. We could have prepared ourselves

17 finally to be in a position to see something, and deliberately this was

18 not done. The photographs were not handed to us during the pause. If

19 this is considered to be normal, that's very well. The Defence will have

20 to defend blindly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber didn't ask for the determination it

22 has to make the photographs. It would have been proper, but I should have

23 perhaps also mentioned that to give the photographs to the Defence before

24 the break if this would result in any consequences, we'll then see. Let's

25 proceed at this moment, and see whether -- but I think it would have been

Page 15381

1 proper to do so, Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I agree with that. I did,

3 however, mention on the record that I had more photographs here which I

4 could make available. But I should have done it anyway.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Defence could have asked at that very moment

6 even if the Chamber for its determination would not need to have it.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that the two student hostel buildings

10 were identical to each other. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And please accept from me, for the moment, that this is an image

13 taken from the video that you saw yesterday of the student hostel which is

14 further down the slope. Do you remember yesterday you said "this is the

15 way the hostels appeared throughout the war"?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber would prefer to have the

17 video always played to the point where the still is taken so that we also

18 can compare it.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would please instruct the technical booth

21 to play the video.

22 MR. IERACE: If the booth could play the video until such time as

23 I ask that the image be paused.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 15382

1 MR. IERACE: I think it has to be rewound to the beginning.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think we were almost there.

3 MR. IERACE: In fact, it was there. There might have been two

4 images.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a bit back.

6 MR. IERACE: I think forward again, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you give the instructions.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, continue to go forward slightly.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, still a bit more. A bit more. We were almost

10 there.

11 MR. IERACE: I think it might have been at the beginning,

12 Mr. President. I think that was where the tape ended.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The last image of that sequence. Okay, let's leave

14 it there for a while. Please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE: I don't think that's the image, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not.

17 MR. IERACE: It's earlier on. Perhaps if we go back to the point

18 where we see the Oslobodenje building.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the tape be rewound so that we then ...

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Stop there. All right.

21 Q. Now, in front of you, you have an image of what you see on the

22 screen approximately. I draw your attention to the -- what appears to be

23 in the image the bottom three levels of that building. Would you

24 please --

25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could now go to the photograph,

Page 15383

1 Mr. President, if it's convenient.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the photograph may be put on the ELMO.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

4 Q. Would you please point to the bottom three levels of the image --

5 I'm sorry, of the building which appear in the image.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. All right. Would you please place your pointer lower than the

8 floors you are indicating.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Lower again.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you. Now lower again.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Thank you. Please leave your pointer on that last area.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. To the left.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you. Now, those three levels that we can see were part of

19 that building. Is that the position?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Move your pointer to the right-hand half of the building on the

22 same level.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. Move the -- please keep your pointer at that position.

25 At that stage, we can see -- the camera is looking more or less straight

Page 15384

1 on to that wing of the building, perhaps slightly to the left of straight

2 on. And apparently, we can see through a section of those bottom levels.

3 Is that correct?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.

7 MR. IERACE: Should the witness leave the courtroom,

8 Mr. President?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Most certainly -- very

10 certainly.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness to -- I'm sorry that I have

12 to ask you to, but sometimes that's part of the fate of a witness, Mr. DP.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to say that the

15 camera would have been looking practically opposite is probably erroneous.

16 Also, it would be nice to know what actually it means by opposite, but

17 when we look at the carrier, that is the basis.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the English transcript says

19 "straight on that wing" and not "opposite." Is there any translation

20 problem? Could you please read the English transcript and see --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, there's no problem of

22 translation. This is the way that the question was phrased in English,

23 which doesn't seem correct to me. I don't think that we can say that the

24 photograph was taken opposite this wing for a very good reason. That is,

25 if we examine the basis, they are not at all in the axis taken, or that is

Page 15385

1 from the imaginary point from which this photograph was taken. We can see

2 that the way that the carrier is the basis, they would need an angle of

3 more than 45 degrees, and it wasn't taken opposite. We cannot say that it

4 was a frontal position. We cannot say this to the witness because this is

5 not the truth because it appears in the exhibit --

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, although I did add the words slightly

7 to the left, in the interests of saving time, if that's the objection, I'm

8 happy to rephrase it

9 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to prevent whatever comes, there is a

10 lot of evidence that this building and the other similar building is a

11 building which consists of three wings, so that means that if these wings

12 are equally divided over the building, that the angle is 120 degrees

13 approximately. So if the parties would agree with that, that we are

14 looking at two wings of a building which make an angle of approximately

15 120 degrees, then we know within what limits we are as to the angle under

16 which the photograph was taken. I'm not saying that we know what the

17 angle is, but we know what -- in what limits the angle approximately is.

18 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

19 courtroom again. Mr. Ierace, I heard you say that you'll rephrase the

20 question. And let's proceed.

21 If there's any basic disagreement on what I said before as far as

22 the building, I'm not saying what the final determination of the Chamber

23 is, of course, but that there is a lot of evidence. I mean, we have seen

24 a lot of maps with the, yes ...

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 15386

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is a disagreement here,

4 and I can explain why, if you wish me to do so.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because simply we know that

7 there are three wings. I have never seen -- we don't know whether these

8 three wings are equally divided between them. Perhaps there is a larger

9 wing on one side than on the others.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I meant not whether large or -- but

11 approximately to what corners. And I'm referring to all of the maps on

12 which we see these buildings appear, and the shape of these buildings on

13 the maps. But if you disagree, then as I said, it's not a determination.

14 I was just reflecting what until now has been in evidence and of which I

15 never heard any contestation.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Sir, would you please take your pointer, and place it on the upper

19 levels of the left -- can you not hear me?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear Mr. Ierace?

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. Would you please take your pointer and place it on the upper

23 levels of the left-hand wing of the building in the photograph.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Do you see there appear to be reasonably sharp shadows

Page 15387

1 in the top left-hand portion of each window space forming a diagonal line,

2 a series of diagonal lines over the facade? Do you see that?

3 A. You mean this?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I think that is a reflection from the sun.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. If the sun is in a certain position.

8 Q. Yes. So we see what appears to be the effects of sunlight in the

9 form of light-coloured areas, and then dark-coloured areas clearly

10 indicating shade. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Now, place your pointer in the lower levels of that

13 same left-hand side, where you had it before.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. Now as we look at the spaces between those walls, we

16 see a lot of dark areas. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we appear to see vertical columns with sunlight on them

19 towards the front, around the area of your pointer. Correct?

20 A. Is this what you are referring to?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Now take your pointer to the right in those same lower

24 levels.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 15388

1 Q. Thank you. Place your pointer one level further up.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Thank you. And in the two cavities immediately to the left of

4 your pointer, do you see some light-coloured areas. If so, please point

5 to them.

6 A. Yes, you can see that.

7 Q. All right. And place your pointer again on the last of those two

8 areas.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. No. Over to the left.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Further.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Further again.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Thank you. And now take it down a level.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you. And do you see a light-coloured area there as well?

19 Do you see that, a light-coloured area?

20 A. Yes, but there seems to be some sort of shield here. I don't know

21 what. Some kind of protection, some kind of screen.

22 Q. All right. I'm going to suggest to you that when you watch the

23 video again in a few minutes, what we are seeing in those squares is

24 daylight behind the building. Do you understand what I'm inviting you to

25 observe in the next few minutes?

Page 15389

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. When the video is replayed, please also look at the

3 same area on the other building; that is, the lower floors.

4 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the booth now replay the last minute

5 or so of the video up to the point -- withdraw that. I would ask that we

6 now see the video from the point of Oslobodjenje onwards until I ask that

7 it be paused.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. IERACE: Could we please rewind the video to the scene where

10 we see the Oslobodjenje building.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The technicians might not know what is the

12 Oslobodjenje building. Starting at the beginning, perhaps.

13 MR. IERACE: From this point onwards will do. I'm sorry,

14 Mr. President, to interrupt.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now please play it forward at normal speed.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. IERACE: All right. Please stop there. And rewind slowly.

18 Rewind slower -- rewind, please. Thank you. Please stop. All right.

19 Q. I think we're now looking at the second of the student hostels.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And beneath the horizontal white lines, we can see a dark area

23 which includes what appears to be a street light. Do you see that, the

24 street light? Slightly to the left of the middle of the picture?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15390

1 Q. To the right of the street light, in the dark area, do you see a

2 square of a lighter colour? It seems to have a slight reddish tinge to

3 it.

4 A. I can see that the colour is different. I apologise. I'm

5 slightly colour blind. I can't distinguish between red and blue. There

6 is something that is different.

7 Q. Yes. In any event, it seems to be lighter, significantly lighter

8 in colour, whatever colour it is, to the surrounding area. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Given the position of the sun we noticed earlier, one would expect

11 that the area beneath the building could well be in shade. Correct?

12 A. Yes, in the lower right-hand corner. That's how it appears, at

13 least.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

15 object.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yet again, I don't think we

18 are referring to the same building. We are speaking about the same

19 building. The fact that there is an angle, that the sun doesn't strike

20 it, strike the facade in the same manner perhaps --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you cannot explain about the --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Then, could the

23 witness leave.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of

25 the courtroom.

Page 15391

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I first see, you say -- your objection is you say

3 we are not talking about the same building. As far as I understand it,

4 questions are put by Mr. Ierace about the building on the screen. Whether

5 this is the same building as any other building we saw before is a

6 different matter and certainly fit if you think there would be any

7 confusion for cross-examination. But if there's any other reason why you

8 object, please tell us.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's the same

10 building, but it's not the same wing.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any misunderstanding?

12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps there's a misunderstanding, Mr. President.

13 This is the -- if I could put it this way: The building that we saw in

14 the photograph earlier is the building which is presently the UN field

15 office in Sarajevo. I think that could be generally accepted. I think

16 Ms. Pilipovic would be aware of that. Perhaps she could agree to that.

17 In any event, the building which we now see on the screen is not

18 that one, but its twin. It is not a wing of the same building as the

19 earlier one. It is the same wing of the building which is in the

20 photograph.

21 It might assist, Mr. President, if the video could be played for

22 the Defence to see that it's a separate building. I would have no

23 objection to that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If perhaps before the witness comes in again

25 that this part of the video be replayed.

Page 15392

1 MR. IERACE: It might be easier if it's played forward slowly

2 because we should then see the break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. IERACE: I think that's going to take us in the wrong

6 direction.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well forward is what I would usually refer to as

8 backwards. Mr. Ierace, if you say to the left or to the right, it will

9 certainly create no confusion, more to the left, I take it.

10 MR. IERACE: Well, it depends on where the camera is moving. So

11 if it's played backwards, that might give us a view to the left.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could it be played backwards.

13 MR. IERACE: Stop there, please. It should now be clear that the

14 building on the left of the screen is the present UN field office. The

15 building on the right is the twin of the earlier building. The building

16 in the photograph is the building on the left.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you're putting questions to the witness in

18 respect of the other building.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if the objection is that it's not the same

21 building, you do agree on that; it is the other building.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for having put the

25 question to me, Mr. President. But I'm still not quite convinced. I'm

Page 15393

1 going to try and identify by using a photograph the background, but we can

2 continue, I think, and we will see. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness

4 into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the video could be forwarded, moved forward

7 slowly. Further. Please stop there.

8 Q. All right. Now --

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

10 Q. All right. Now, I asked you whether you could see on the screen

11 to the right of the light post a squarish shaped area which was lighter

12 than the surrounding area. I think you said that you could. I think I

13 then asked you whether, having regard to the position of the sun, it would

14 be unsurprising if the lower levels of this building were partly in shade

15 at the time this video was taken.

16 A. I really don't know.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. I know that this building has three wings, but as to the position

19 of the sun ...

20 Q. Okay. You appreciate that in the upper levels, the shade is quite

21 heavy in the cavities between the floors and walls. Do you agree with

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I suggest to you that the light square that I referred to earlier,

25 to the right of the light post, and in fact is lighter in colour because

Page 15394

1 we're seeing daylight, the effects of daylight, behind the building.

2 A. That's possible, but I don't know.

3 Q. All right. In the foreground, we see what appears to be a piece

4 of glass, as one might expect if the video was shot through a broken

5 window space. Would you agree with that?

6 A. Do you mean the lower right-hand corner?

7 Q. Yes, I do.

8 A. This could also be shadow caused by the sun on the building over

9 there. It's quite easy.

10 Q. Okay. But you agree a possibility is it's a piece of broken glass

11 in the corner of the window frame?

12 A. It's possible.

13 Q. Now, in the lower part of the picture, we see what appears to be a

14 flat-roofed building with a dark window immediately facing the camera. Do

15 you see that?

16 A. To the left, in the left part of the photograph?

17 Q. We can't see where you're pointing on the screen unfortunately.

18 But towards the bottom of the image, right at the bottom, so the bottom

19 quarter, do you see running across the screen what appears to be a

20 building with a flat roof?

21 A. I asked you whether it was to the left, on the left side of the

22 photograph?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point at the -- no, no, it's not

24 possible.

25 MR. IERACE:

Page 15395

1 Q. It's not -- it extends from the left corner of the screen,

2 certainly as far as the darker diagonal part of the image, and one can see

3 behind the darker area that it indeed extends almost all the way to the

4 bottom right-hand corner of the screen.

5 A. Yes, I can see it.

6 Q. All right. Now, do you know of such a building in Nedzarici to

7 the west, approximately the west, of the two student hostels, such a

8 building that was there in Nedzarici during the war?

9 A. Yes. But physically, that was outside of the territory of

10 Nedzarici.

11 Q. All right. To be clear on this, I'm not suggesting to you that

12 the video was shot from the school for the blind. I'm not suggesting that

13 we know where it was shot --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we no longer

15 have -- we no longer have this on the screen.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have it again. Yes.

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. I'm not suggesting to you it was taken from any particular place,

19 because we don't know. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Having said that, and having regard to the angles of

22 the buildings, I suggest to you it seems that the position was further to

23 the right of the school for the blind, that is, closer to towards the

24 Oslobodenje building. What do you say to that?

25 A. In relation to what? I didn't understand that.

Page 15396

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point from where the photograph

3 was taken?

4 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be quite unclear when you say to the

5 right, because it depends on what direction you look, and I take it

6 there's confusion.

7 MR. IERACE: Of course. Yes. I'm sorry. I left something out of

8 the question.

9 Q. Do you remember the photograph I showed you earlier where you

10 pointed out to us the three buildings of the school for the blind earlier

11 this morning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you remember that to the right of those buildings, you

14 said -- and behind them, was an orchard?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And behind the orchard, as one looked at the photograph, were some

17 houses?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And as one looked at the photograph, the orchard and where the

20 houses would have been was to the right of the school for the blind?

21 A. Yes. When you're looking from the student hall of residence.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you for that. I'm suggesting to you that the position

23 of the video camera was somewhere to the right of the school for the blind

24 in terms of that photograph you saw earlier this morning, and it may well

25 have been further back. Would you think that a fair comment?

Page 15397

1 A. With regard to the photograph or the video recording?

2 Q. With regard to the video recording in terms of the position of the

3 camera?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's one final photograph, but

7 maybe from the interests of time, maybe I can avoid using it. Could the

8 video proceed forward at a normal pace.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. IERACE: Stop there. Now, for the benefit of the transcript,

11 at this stage we're looking at the building that is the UN field office.

12 That is the student hostel building further down the slope to the north.

13 And the right wing of that building as one looks at the video.

14 Q. I draw your attention to the top floors of that wing, and we see

15 extensive damage. Is that correct, to the facade?

16 A. Sorry, just a correction. This building is still the student hall

17 of residence, and the building to the left is the UN building. This

18 building is not used as office space.

19 Q. I'm sorry.

20 MR. IERACE: Might the video please be played forward slowly.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. IERACE: Please stop. I stand corrected. You're quite right.

23 Q. The top floors of the left wing of that building have extensive

24 damage to the facade. Do you agree?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15398

1 Q. The horizontal strips which we see of a light colour, were they

2 concrete, indeed, reinforced concrete?

3 A. I think it's Ciporex, which is a soft material. It's only a sort

4 of partition.

5 Q. We're talking about the white horizontal stripes that we see on

6 the screen?

7 A. Yes, the horizontal rows, that's what we're talking about. The

8 windows are above them. The windows are installed above them.

9 Q. Was that damage done by shells?

10 A. I couldn't say exactly.

11 Q. Was that damage done by fire from the Bosnian Serb army side of

12 the confrontation lines?

13 A. This part of the building does face our side. It faced our front

14 line.

15 Q. I suggest to you that given the extent of the damage, it must have

16 been caused by shells or rockets rather than small-arms fire. What do you

17 say to that?

18 A. Perhaps it was caused by a hand-held rocket launcher because

19 Ciporex is a very soft material.

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the video now be moved I think

22 in a forward direction, although perhaps the Defence could assist me, to

23 the red buildings. Is that forwards or back?

24 JUDGE ORIE: What red buildings, Mr. Ierace?

25 MR. IERACE: The buildings of a red colour which were the subject

Page 15399

1 of examination-in-chief yesterday. I'll just check my notes,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was a previous part but I'm not

4 quite sure.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to help

8 Mr. Ierace, but I haven't understood which building he's referring to, the

9 building with the red roof.

10 MR. IERACE: It's all right. If the tape could be reversed

11 quickly so that we can follow the image.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, could we

13 take the time into account because the Prosecution has taken up a lot of

14 time, more than the Defence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The -- it's not easy to assess, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

16 due to translation issues, due to objections on both sides. And to be

17 quite honest, the Chamber cannot at this moment make a precise account on

18 the global account the Defence has taken more time than the Prosecution.

19 So please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the tape now be

21 rewound at a faster speed than normal but with the image on the screen so

22 I can alert the booth as to when to stop it.

23 Please stop. All right.

24 Q. Now, you told us yesterday, for the benefit of the transcript I

25 should say, that the image we now see on the screen is the side of a

Page 15400

1 high-rise building with a series of holes in that side. The colour is red

2 with some horizontal lighter coloured stripes which appear to denote the

3 floors of the building, and we are seeing it through a craggy black

4 outline as if the film was shot through an opening.

5 Now, you told us yesterday in relation to one of the holes that we

6 see on the side of this building that it was used for sniping. Do you

7 remember saying that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: I ask that the film be rewound slowly.

10 Q. Whilst that's being rewound, you also said that, as I understood

11 it --

12 MR. IERACE: Please stop. Stop there, and go forward slowly. Go

13 forward slowly. Please stop. Forward slower again. I'm sorry. Forward

14 again. Thank you. All right. Please stop.

15 Q. Now, you said that the hole could have been made from within by

16 the enemy forces so as to specifically create a hole for sniping. Do you

17 recall saying that?

18 A. Yes, with the already-existing windows, the windows that are

19 there. I think that these were the windows that the toilets had or the

20 storage rooms, but they were the windows that the smaller rooms had.

21 Q. Yes. The windows you now refer to I take it are those which

22 appear in a vertical line directly under the apex of the roof. Is that

23 correct? We see one on each storey.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To the left of that line, we see another hole approximately two

Page 15401

1 storeys down from the top. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, that also could have been made by a shell, couldn't it?

4 A. I don't think so because there are two walls here. You've got a

5 brick wall, and on the inside you have reinforced concrete.

6 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. But that's not a reason as to why it

7 wasn't a shell, is it?

8 A. I don't think that a shell, a mortar shell, could create such a

9 hole.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about mortars. The Bosnian Serb army also had

11 the benefit of artillery guns, didn't they?

12 A. We didn't have such things, and they weren't active in the

13 surroundings of Nedzarici.

14 Q. When you say "we didn't have such things" do you mean the army

15 surrounding Sarajevo, or do you mean the part that was in Nedzarici?

16 A. No, I was only referring to the army in Nedzarici. What happened

17 in the surroundings, I don't know. I said we didn't have any electricity

18 or water. We had no TV.

19 Q. All right. Stop there. I said to you that the most efficient way

20 to take out a sniper is with another sniper. Do you agree?

21 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

22 Q. You don't know. Snipers -- I withdraw that. You've told us that

23 there were snipers on the enemy side operating against you from a variety

24 of positions. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, I state this with certainty.

Page 15402

1 Q. Were they operating from the student hostels?

2 A. I know they were operating from the Oslobodjenje building that we

3 spoke about a lot. But as far as the student hostels are concerned, I

4 don't know, because they didn't see our positions. I was hit with a

5 recoilless shell from the student hostel.

6 Q. I'm not asking you about whether you were injured. And in

7 relation to the building on the screen, you've told us that snipers

8 operated against your forces. Correct?

9 A. I'm sorry.

10 Q. It's okay.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, given what you tell us was your vulnerable position in

13 Nedzarici with snipers operating against you from high-rise locations on

14 different sides, I suggest to you that the obvious way of responding to

15 that threat was by the use of snipers on the Bosnian Serb army side. What

16 do you say to that?

17 A. I state with conviction that there were no snipers in Nedzarici in

18 this part of the building that you are showing from the recording. It was

19 facing -- for us it was not an advantageous position because you can see

20 it below that there was a very large field. They were wounding our

21 soldiers that we couldn't go and get during the day. It's some kind of a

22 point of Nedzarici. It's not frontally facing Nedzarici. It is facing

23 sideways, flankways.

24 Q. Sir, at any stage during the war, either in Nedzarici or anywhere

25 else, did you ever see a sniper weapon on the Bosnian -- what you

Page 15403

1 understood to be a weapon of the Bosnian Serb army?

2 A. Personally, no.

3 Q. You told us yesterday that bricks would be removed, or at least

4 small holes made, by the snipers operating on the Bosnian government side

5 so that they could shoot from a protected space. Do you remember saying

6 that?

7 A. Yes, I remember, but that's not how I said it. I said that this

8 was the first hole behind which you have some kind of partition wall. And

9 on this other partition wall, you also have a smaller hole that was made.

10 And we were facing at least 4.000 windows and holes, so we couldn't

11 possibly know where from. And on here, we can see holes for --

12 Q. Okay. Now, we can see from this image that the camera seems to be

13 shooting through a very rough hole. Do you agree with that? We can see

14 the outlines of a hole through which the camera is shooting, or at least

15 the outlines of an opening with rough edges through which the camera is

16 filming.

17 A. Yes, you could say that because of the shadows.

18 Q. Are you familiar with the buildings on the Bosnian Serb army side

19 which faced this particular building at this particular angle; that is,

20 the building we see on the screen?

21 A. Yes. In that buildings, it houses, and mostly in that part, they

22 only have one storey. [As interpreted]

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. IERACE: Now, might the video be stopped, and at the moment I

25 don't require the witness be shown an exhibit.

Page 15404

1 Q. Yesterday, you told us of three barriers that were erected on the

2 street leading down to the intersection of Ante Babica Street, and the

3 street we know as Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street. Do you remember saying

4 that, three barriers across the road.

5 A. Yes. And I said that first they had put two upper checkpoints

6 just before the barricades before the conflict in Sarajevo started.

7 Q. I would be grateful if you could confine your answers just to the

8 questions that I'm asking in the interests of saving time.

9 Did you understand the purpose of those barriers to be to protect

10 persons on the other side from being fired at, being seen and being fired

11 at, from your forces?

12 A. No, not for those three barricades.

13 Q. What did you understand their purpose to be?

14 A. Well, I've already answered earlier. Those first two barricades

15 remained from that time. They had put containers in old vehicles. And

16 then when other barricades were erected, but the nearest one, the closest

17 one to us, that is where a trench went through, a trench corridor, where

18 the enemy forces went through. And just across Vojnicko Polje there were

19 a few buildings that they occupied. And it was a visual protection for

20 their own soldiers.

21 Q. They were visual protections for their own soldiers. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I think you mentioned containers. If we can talk about them

24 this way, the barrier closest to the intersection as barrier one, the

25 barrier in the middle, barrier two; and the barrier closest to your

Page 15405

1 positions, barrier three. Which of those three barriers, or which of them

2 were containers?

3 A. On the barricades, there were those old barricades that remained.

4 When they made the third barricade with a trench through which their

5 soldiers went, we were no longer able to see what was happening there. It

6 was completely sheltered from view.

7 Q. So the last you saw of barrier one included a container or

8 containers. Is that correct? Before you could no longer see it.

9 A. No. We --

10 Q. What was barrier one made from when you last saw it during the

11 war?

12 A. We only saw the barricade which was the closest one to us. You

13 understand? Further, we could no longer see.

14 Q. Have you ever personally seen a barricade at position number 1

15 during the war?

16 A. If we're speaking about barricade number 1, the closest one to our

17 positions, then, yes. I don't know what you mean by barricade number 1.

18 Q. Let's call the barricade which is closest to your positions

19 barricade number 3; the middle one, barricade number 2; and the barricade

20 closest to the intersection, that is, the barricade furthest away from

21 your positions, barricade number 1. Sir, during the war, did you

22 personally ever see barricade 1? Yes or no.

23 A. No.

24 Q. You never saw it. Is that your evidence, during the war?

25 A. Yes, I'm stating this because we only saw the barricade number 3.

Page 15406

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you how much time you think you

2 still need?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would have thought around 40

4 minutes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems for the Chamber is that

6 bookkeeping, which is not our favorite sport, becomes so complicated

7 because of the many, many objections where it seems that I'm not very

8 successful in keeping the parties within certain limits as far as their

9 objections are concerned.

10 Would you please, until the next break, prioritise your subjects

11 in the best possible way because the Chamber will have to consider what to

12 do.

13 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

14 Q. All right, now, you never saw barrier 1. You never saw barrier 2

15 during the war. You only saw barrier 3. Is that your evidence?

16 A. I told you already; when the conflicts broke out, you were able to

17 see number 1 and number 2.

18 Q. You already told us that you never saw --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness was in the middle

22 of answering the question. He was interrupted. This is not normal, and I

23 believe that he is interrupted in a relatively aggressive manner.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I agree with you that the Chamber doesn't like any

25 raising of voices which it hears sometimes.

Page 15407

1 May I ask you now, because your last answer might have caused

2 confusion where you were stopped halfway. We have three barriers. The

3 closest to Ante Babica Street, close to the intersection. The one closest

4 to your positions. And the one in between. During the war, you told us

5 that you've seen the barrier closest to your positions.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the very beginning of the

7 war.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the very beginning of the war. Then the --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was possible to see it, but it

10 was just at the very beginning of the war, barricade number 1. Closest to

11 the Ante Babica intersection --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, you now called that ... I'm asking - please

13 forget about the numbers for the time - closest to your positions, you've

14 seen that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. After three months of war,

16 that's the only one, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The middle one?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they made the barricade which

19 was the closest one to us, we were no longer to see anything else. Do you

20 understand? I'm sorry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So you say in the beginning, you might have seen the

22 middle one, but as soon as the barricade closest to our position was

23 erected, then we could not see the middle one any more. Yes?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the one close to the intersection with the Ante

Page 15408

1 Babica Road, have you ever seen that ever?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the very beginning of the

3 war, yes, because that was the first one that was erected. It was the

4 first one that was erected.

5 JUDGE ORIE: For how long did you see that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps for two months, from the

7 beginning of the conflict.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe it? Did it consist of

9 sheets, of containers, of whatever? Could you describe how the barrier

10 was?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, from the

12 containers, made of containers, and old vehicles. It was a physical

13 obstacle so you couldn't get through, physical barrier.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, containers and old vehicles.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And then -- and it was made in

16 this way, so that when they were doing the checkpoints on the first

17 barricades, so that you would have to slow down. You couldn't go

18 directly, but if you went with a car you would have to slow down and go

19 next to it. The first one and the second. The third one was straight.

20 And as I said, at the beginning, that they were even putting some parts of

21 wardrobes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got an answer to my questions. Please

23 proceed, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. The building that you told us, or the house that was alongside

Page 15409

1 that appeared -- I'll withdraw that. Earlier I showed you two

2 photographs, one being a telephoto shot taken from the same position as

3 the other, and you told us that the building which appeared in the

4 foreground was not there during the war. There had been another building.

5 How high was that earlier building? In this way, was it just a ground

6 floor or was it a ground floor with more levels on top of the ground

7 floor?

8 A. Do you mean the building that can be seen clearly on the

9 photograph that I was pointing at?

10 JUDGE ORIE: You were pointing at the building, and you said

11 between that building with a red, black roof, and the Institute of the

12 Blind, there had been another building before the war. Mr. Ierace is

13 asking you how high was that building that is not there any more on the

14 photograph? How high was that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think two storeys. A ground floor

16 and a storey.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: All right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown map P1785.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: It was shown to the witness yesterday by the Defence.

23 Q. Yesterday, you told us that there was a cannon more or less at the

24 point which appears on this map marked with the number 23. Do you

25 remember saying that?

Page 15410

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you ever see this cannon in that position?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Will you show us on the map where you were when you saw it?

5 A. I was in the top of the barracks because it was snowing. For a

6 very long time we looking where the fire was from. We couldn't find out

7 because there was a road that was made in the hill. They had also cut

8 through a part of the hill. And then by the road, they put a camouflage

9 net.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The question was where you were when you saw the

11 cannon. You're explaining a lot of things, but could you please

12 concentrate very much on the question; answer that, yes. So where you

13 were.

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. When you say at the top of the barracks, how many floors up were

16 you? Ground plus how many floors?

17 A. Ground floor plus two storeys. And I didn't say I was on the top.

18 I said I was in the barracks, in the upper part of the barrack because the

19 barrack has more than one building.

20 Q. When you say that the cannon was in that position more or less,

21 was it in the street or in a building or what?

22 A. I explained earlier. There was a part of the road that was cut

23 through next to the road. You could see it clearly in the binoculars.

24 The soldiers were billeted in the house just near the hill where it had

25 been cut through.

Page 15411

1 Q. Do you mean it was in a hole in the road?

2 A. I've already explained. As the road has been cut through in a

3 hill, the inside of the road next to the hill has been cut in so that you

4 put the cannon there. You understand?

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd like the witness to be shown now a

7 CD photograph which is P3279 E. And perhaps the witness's monitor could

8 be put on computer evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, computer evidence.

10 MR. IERACE: In a moment you will see on your screen --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give it to the -- I take it that it

12 will be steered by your case manager.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, it will, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. In a moment you will see on your screen a photograph which we will

17 be able to move sideways. Accept from me, because it is not in dispute,

18 that the photograph you're about to see was taken from the point which

19 appears on the map marked 23. Do you understand? Do you understand what

20 I've just said to you?

21 A. No, that's not the place.

22 Q. That's not the place. All right.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now we're about to move the photograph sideways 360 degrees. I

25 want you to look at the photograph, and if you see where the cannon was,

Page 15412

1 please tell me immediately and we will stop moving the photograph.

2 All right, please stop the photograph. I think we've just done

3 360 degrees.

4 A. From this place, you cannot see it.

5 Q. All right. Can you recognise what appears in the photograph at

6 the moment? And for the benefit of the transcript, we're looking down the

7 road, that is, the road appears to be on a slope. We're looking

8 downwards.

9 Do you recognise the view which appears in the photograph?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And do you see in the background a row -- a number of

12 houses at the end of the road, commencing at the end of the road?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you see in front of those houses a road which runs across

15 the picture, appears to be an intersection?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recognise that to be Ante Babica Street?

18 A. If that's what it's called here. But in any case, that's what the

19 street which continues from Ante Babica on, and continues on to Dobrinja,

20 takes us to Dobrinja.

21 Q. All right. Will you now please turn to the map alongside you.

22 And perhaps we could have the map on the video evidence. Thank you.

23 Do you see Ante Babica Street to the left of number 23? If you

24 do, please point to it.

25 A. Yes, I can see it.

Page 15413

1 Q. Thank you. Now yesterday, as I understood your evidence, you said

2 that between Ante Babica Street and moving towards the two confrontation

3 lines or green lines to the left, there were houses, and they were

4 completely destroyed during the war. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. And just at the beginning of the war, they were on our side,

6 and later on it was held by the Muslim army. So Ante Babica Street was

7 not a confrontation line.

8 Q. Do you see the two lines -- I don't know how they appear to you

9 with colour blindness. Are you able to accurately identify the colour

10 green?

11 A. One seems to be darker to me, and the other one lighter.

12 Q. Yes. The darker line, does that show the forward positions of the

13 Bosnian Serb army during the war? Perhaps you can point to the darker

14 line, as you see it.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Yes. Just there. Please stop your pointer.

17 In that area -- please bring it further down the line.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the portion of the darker line

21 immediately to the right of Nedzarici, slightly below and slightly above.

22 Q. Does that accurately reflect the forward positions of the Bosnian

23 Serb army, let's say, in 1993?

24 A. Approximately yes, but the map is not precise. It's not a correct

25 map. It's not a proper map.

Page 15414

1 Q. In relation to the confrontation lines or the forward positions of

2 the Bosnian Serb army, is it correct in that part, the part you've just

3 had your pointer?

4 A. In this part, we had no soldiers. Nobody had any soldiers there.

5 It's just an ordinary meadow. It was just an empty space that we were

6 very afraid of all the time.

7 Q. All right. As you move further to the left, that is, towards the

8 institute of theology, where do you say are the first houses?

9 A. Next to the primary school.

10 Q. All right.

11 MR. IERACE: Now, the witness indicates a point where the side of

12 the triangle, that's the red triangle indicating the cone of fire,

13 intersects a vertical line near a group of symbols indicating buildings

14 which is to the left of the name "Nedzarici" that appears on the map.

15 Q. I think you said that included a primary school. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, these black dots. That's the primary school.

17 Q. Do you see also some dots on the map to the right and slightly

18 lower of the primary school, just below and to the left of the "N" in

19 Nedzarici? And perhaps you could point to them.

20 I'll withdraw that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we're at a point to have a break. I'd

22 first like to ask the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom. We'll

23 have a break for 20 minutes approximately.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE:

Page 15415

1 Mr. Ierace, could you tell the Chamber, what other subjects, how

2 many, and what about you had in mind?

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Subject to whether this witness

4 says he was in Nedzarici in December of 1992 and early January, I wish to

5 cross-examine him on the subject of their being widespread fire, shell

6 fire, and small-arms fire into the city on Christmas day, or eve, 25th of

7 December, and Serbian Orthodox Christmas day, 6th of January, as well as

8 New Year's Eve. You may recall evidence from other witnesses that that

9 happened. This witness says he had a tank in his company. Earlier

10 witnesses -- some earlier witnesses said they weren't there at that time

11 of year.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. That's one subject. What

13 else?

14 MR. IERACE: That's one subject. He was asked questions in chief

15 about a mosque.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: And that's now in the Defence case an issue. I wish

18 to ask him some questions about mosques. Clarify what a mountain cannon

19 is. I don't think that will take long. There are some questions I wish

20 to ask him in closed court which will only take a minute or two, whether

21 he knows certain people who have already given evidence in this trial, and

22 that has particular relevance because of the subject of tanks having

23 regard to what some witnesses have said about there being tanks or not

24 tanks in Nedzarici. And that's it, Mr. President. There's one other

25 topic which I may drop. Perhaps I could indicate whether I pursue that

Page 15416

1 one at the end of the break.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you might have noticed, the Chamber will

3 consider whether and how much time will still be granted to you. I also

4 pointed that the Chamber has great difficulties in keeping both parties

5 within the limits of their time, both while examining the witness and when

6 objecting against the questions of the other party.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just one other issue. I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, if you could do it in 30 seconds.

9 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, it's in relation to the evidence we're

10 hearing now about there being a field and now houses on the Serb side of

11 the confrontation line. I would be grateful if my learned colleagues

12 could indicate where [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it should be redacted which is not something

25 that is already now for the outside world. Madam Registrar, would you

Page 15417

1 please prepare the redaction. I'll give you some guidance once we enter

2 into the break.

3 Am I correct in my understanding that next week we start with the

4 videolink testimony?

5 MR. IERACE: On Tuesday. I think it's Tuesday.

6 JUDGE ORIE: On Tuesday. So we still have Monday available. Yes.

7 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm just making

9 a note that I was promised two minutes before the break. I was promised

10 and given to Mr. Ierace. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. I promised you two minutes. So

12 we'll not adjourn, but you'll first have two minutes.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed,

15 Mr. President. There is a very serious problem which is happening which

16 is the following: When I intervene for translation purposes, and I

17 believe we can all agree on the point that I am only do this when it is

18 essential so that everyone can understand a specific example. If a

19 witness said at Nedzarici one tank, I have to intervene if Mr. Ierace is

20 asking questions about several tanks because then it gives a false

21 representation. And then when the witness says that the tank was never

22 stationed, and in the transcript it says the opposite, I have to

23 intervene. When I'm doing this, when I'm asked to prove it, we're wasting

24 a lot of time, but we're doing this for everyone. We do not want this to

25 be interpreted as being something that's done on our part to do this for

Page 15418

1 any diversionary purposes. It's not doing anything else. But we're

2 trying to save time. If these objections are taken out from our side,

3 although this is making the hearings actually shorter, I don't think this

4 is honest. This is not correct. It is not equitable.

5 The very last matter in relation to time: Yesterday, we saw that

6 the Prosecution took some 40 minutes. Today, there was not much time that

7 was taken. And we are already now at 20 minutes to 1.00. Therefore what

8 I wish to say, Mr. President, is that when we are asking to give our time

9 to the points which are general interest, and therefore we are doing this

10 for the general interest, it is not correct that -- it is not fair to

11 somehow add it to the Prosecution time so that the Prosecution uses this

12 for their own purposes and profit from it. This is the briefest way in

13 which I could express myself. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We'll adjourn until

15 1.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I promised the parties some more guidance in respect

19 of some procedural matters. The Chamber rather prefers to continue at

20 this very moment. I'll just give you one point of what I'll say in a more

21 coherent way at the beginning of next week, that is that objections should

22 be limited to not more than two lines of transcript, and it is enough to

23 refer to what kind of objection it is. That is, relevance or question

24 asked, question answered, or hearsay. That's clear enough, and the

25 Chamber will then decide upon the objection, and of course will first see

Page 15419

1 whether there's any need in view of the testimony at this moment and any

2 objection as raised, whether there's any need to hear the other party on

3 it as well. The other party would not get more than two lines as well,

4 and then a decision will be given in order to avoid that any objection is

5 the beginning of a lengthy argument. Perhaps the parties could keep that

6 already in mind for the next 40 minutes.

7 Mr. Ierace, the Chamber has decided that you'll have another ten

8 minutes, not more certainly than 12 minutes to go. Please proceed.

9 MR. IERACE: May I start, Mr. President?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. Yesterday you told us there was a mosque in the aerodrome near the

13 airport neighbourhood. Do you see that area on the -- the position of the

14 mosque on the map in front of you, and if so, could you please point to

15 it.

16 A. I've already said that the map is not quite precise. But it is

17 more or less somewhere here.

18 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates a position on the map to the

19 left of the dark-green confrontation line.

20 Q. Perhaps you could put the pointer on the map again, please.

21 A. I apologise. It's here. And I said that these lines weren't very

22 precise.

23 Q. Yes. On the light-green line where it intersects a road which is

24 to the right, not necessarily the same name but if one follows the road to

25 the right, it's indicated as bulevar Branicaca Dobrinje Street. Were

Page 15420

1 there any or mosques in that area; do you remember? I take it there were

2 not.

3 A. No.

4 Q. And did that mosque suffer any -- I'll withdraw that. You told us

5 that it couldn't be seen from Nedzarici. Were there any other mosques --

6 any mosques that could be seen from anywhere in Nedzarici?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Now, where were you on the 24th and 25th of December,

9 1992?

10 A. I was in Nedzarici.

11 Q. On -- at midnight on the 24th of December, 1992, that is,

12 Christmas eve, there was the sound weaponry being fired in large

13 quantities all around the perimeter of Sarajevo. Is that correct?

14 A. I don't know really. I don't know about that.

15 Q. Do you remember what you did on Christmas eve, 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you sure you were in Nedzarici?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that that's what happened at midnight, and

20 that noise lasted for about 20 minutes, that is, until about 20 minutes

21 past midnight on Christmas day. What do you say to that?

22 A. I don't know about that piece of information.

23 Q. Is the 6th of January the date on the Serbian Orthodox calendar

24 for Christmas?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15421

1 Q. I suggest to you the same thing happened on Christmas eve,

2 according to the Serbian Orthodox rites, that is, at midnight on the 5th

3 of January, there was a similar barrage from positions of the Bosnian Serb

4 army around Sarajevo?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I did hear that Mr. Piletta-Zanin added one word

7 which was not translated. I did not invite you to speak so quickly that

8 the interpreters could not translate any more.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have difficulties in understanding

11 your language, it seems.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, question of the

13 year.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's not clear. Could you please assist.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly. The Serbian booth

16 understood it correctly. I object because we're speaking about a

17 different year. We have to know whether it was 1992, 1993, or 1994. So

18 my objection, in less than two lines, was objection, the question concerns

19 the year. The issue concerns the year.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm certain it could have said in such a way

21 that everyone would have understood right away.

22 Mr. Ierace, would you please clarify.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes.

24 Q. I suggest to you that at midnight on the 5th of January, 1992,

25 that the same thing happened. There was a barrage coming from Bosnian

Page 15422

1 Serb army positions around Sarajevo of fire into the city that lasted some

2 20 minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Ierace, that you're mistaken and

4 that you are referring to the 5th of January, 1993?

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes.

6 Q. What do you say to that?

7 A. I'm not familiar with that.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we go into closed session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into closed session.

11 [Closed session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15423

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 15423-15428 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 15429

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please make clear to the witness --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether it is a different building.

10 Yes, please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Witness, can you recognise the building in the photograph? Is

13 it one of the two buildings that corresponds to what we call the students'

14 city? Yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that the upper part of this building

17 right above, the structure above, is it white or is it light colour?

18 A. Yes, at the top, yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much. The following question, Witness: Could you

20 now answer a question that is going to be purely hypothetical, purely

21 hypothetical. Let's imagine, let's imagine that the windows of one of

22 these buildings, it doesn't matter which one, and the inside walls

23 disappeared because of the war. And my question is as follows: Given the

24 angle of the -- of fire that is necessary in order to attain a point which

25 is on the other side of the Ante Babica Avenue, that concrete floors of

Page 15430

1 the building, would they have constituted an obstacle to a direct shot

2 from the Serbian positions, regardless of where these positions were?

3 MR. IERACE: I object. The question says it doesn't matter which

4 building; it does. The question doesn't differentiate between the floors.

5 There are clearly differences between the upper floors --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Question is unclear, I do understand. You're making

7 a lot of assumptions that could all influence the answer. Would you

8 please be more precise, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Q. Witness, let's imagine, let's take both buildings, and let's

11 imagine that there were no windows and no inside walls in either of the

12 buildings. It's a hypothesis. From the Serbian positions, could a shot,

13 a direct shot, if it were to hit a point on the other side of the Ante

14 Babica Avenue --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness has already -- I hesitate

17 to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's put the question to the witness. I think --

19 please continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to the question. It's

21 difficult to do so in the presence of the witness but --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin is allowed to finish this question.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. Going to continue. For both these buildings, Witness,

Page 15431

1 hypothetically, let's say there are no more windows and there are no more

2 inside walls. So far are you with me? Do you understand the hypothesis?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. In this hypothesis, and I'm going to ask you the

5 following question: From the Serb positions that you know, the presence

6 of the horizontal floors, would it have constituted an obstacle to a

7 direct shot? Yes or no. What I mean is to hit the Ante Babica Avenue

8 which is located behind these buildings?

9 A. Yes, it would have constituted a problem, yes.

10 Q. Very briefly, could you tell us why? Why would it have been a

11 problem very briefly?

12 A. Because we were in a far lower position, lower than these

13 buildings, subordinate to this building. So we practically only saw the

14 ceilings.

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that was a closed session

20 matter.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please make a redaction, Madam

22 Registrar. It's 92.15 until 18.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 [redacted]

Page 15432

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 Q. Thank you very much. Now, could we go back to the question that

4 we spoke of, the cannon. Do you remember 360-degree photograph? At the

5 moment, I don't have the time because I haven't been given enough time to

6 play this photograph again. But this cannon, was it stationed near - and

7 I mean near - to what was shown on this 360-degree photograph?

8 MR. IERACE: I object. Inappropriate question. Leading. The

9 evidence has given clear evidence about this, and this question does not

10 clarify any existing misunderstanding.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do not agree that the answer is that clear. The

12 witness has testified you could not see the position of the tank. Could

13 you give us any other indication on where the tank was.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are not

15 talking about a tank. I'm sorry, we're talking about a cannon.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Cannon, yes. I made a mistake.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I was going to answer.

18 The cannon was located -- what was filmed was at the bottom of the Mojmilo

19 hill, and the cannon was at the top. So it was at the end of the

20 regarding that we saw. It was at a much higher elevation than the

21 position on the recording.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This is approximately from where the picture was

23 taken?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 200, 250 metres approximately,

25 going up Mojmilo hill.

Page 15433

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Would you next time ask the witness in examination-in-chief what

3 the distance was, not whether it was near or not.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. Following question, Witness: You said earlier that you did not

7 receive any outside assistance, outside aid in Nedzarici.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You meant as far as your company was concerned?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, there is nothing in the

11 cross-examination which requires clarification in relation to that part of

12 the evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what's the relevance, please.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I

15 understood. You want me to say it in two words in response? Is that it?

16 I was listening to the Serb booth, so I didn't hear what you said.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, indeed,

19 Mr. President. It is important in respect --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about the importance. It is the

21 issue whether it was raised in cross-examination first, I think.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes, the

23 question of outside help was raised during cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please put your question.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 15434

1 Q. Could you please answer, Witness. Therefore, you said during

2 cross-examination that you did not receive any outside help. To which

3 company were you referring to?

4 A. I was thinking about the entire battalion in Nedzarici.

5 Q. Now, I'd like to continue, regarding the question Oslobodjenje.

6 You said during the cross-examination the way that this building had

7 fallen and why it had fallen. You used the words "alone, on its own, it

8 collapsed, alone, first wing and then another wing." You were ready to

9 make a drawing. We don't have time for a drawing. But could you please

10 explain to us how did this collapse happen exactly with precision, so that

11 we know, please.

12 A. Both parts that had collapsed were linked to the central part that

13 can be seen. So they didn't start from the ground. First the left wing

14 had fallen, and then three days later, right wing had fallen. The way

15 that -- the construction of the building worked, they were attached to the

16 central part. And only the central part had the base and the rest was

17 like hanging. For five floors, there was nothing, and then there were

18 these wings of the building began which later collapsed.

19 Q. Thank you. I'm just is going to come -- going to come back to the

20 question of assistance, and that will be my penultimate question. This

21 assistance, you spoke of help in a general way, or was this specific

22 assistance in weapons or anything else?

23 A. In principle, we didn't get any assistance in anything.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you the very last question. It's

25 with respect to the cannon on the Mojmilo side that we spoke about. When

Page 15435

1 such a weapon is positioned, does it have a crew that's loading it? Yes

2 or no.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. As a general rule, according to normal army rules that

5 you know, this crew, do they have to stay in position near the piece, near

6 the weapon or on the weapon, on the piece?

7 A. Probably, yes.

8 Q. Thank you. How many people would have to constitute a crew for

9 such a weapon, such a piece?

10 A. Three men, I believe.

11 Q. Thank you. How were the supplies coming to the opposing side for

12 this piece?

13 A. I really don't know.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further

15 questions, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for you.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 We would like you to have a look again on the map 1785. Now, you

21 can take a red pen and put a mark on the place where you saw a cannon. Do

22 you remember? You talk about the water reservoir. Just put an X or

23 something like that.

24 A. Reservoir.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Of the position of the cannon.

Page 15436

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I respectfully intervene to

2 point out that I think this is actually an exhibit of a Prosecution

3 witness rather than a copy of it. I don't know whether you want to place

4 the mark --

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The one that I have is D1785.

6 MR. IERACE: I apologise.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't know whether this is the one that I am

8 talking about, but this is a Defence exhibit, not a Prosecutor exhibit.

9 Am I right?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. That's

11 right.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is just to put an X in the place

13 where the cannon was.

14 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I've already said that the map is very imprecise.

15 It was approximately here, where this point is. Perhaps a little further

16 up.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just put an X there, and the letter "T," as in

18 Tom.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has no questions for you. I have got

22 one question for you, and that is about sniping or snipers. It's not

23 quite clear to me, was it your testimony that there were no snipers at

24 your side, well let's say, in Nedzarici, that you are aware of?

25 A. Yes. I said there were no sniper weapons at all.

Page 15437

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No sniper weapons. But were there -- you said

2 a sniper weapon is with an optical sight on it, and you said a hunting

3 rifle could even be a sniping rifle. Was there any weapon with which you

4 would target at relatively long-distance persons?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We heard testimony in this Court of a witness who was

7 on your side of the conflict that every company -- let me just find the

8 exact words. Yes. I'll quote his exact words. He said: "Each company

9 has to have a sniper." That was not --

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That was not true in the area where you ...

12 A. More or less, I knew the situation throughout the line in

13 Nedzarici. And my information is that there was absolutely no weapons

14 with optical sights, with scopes. No hunting rifles or any other rifles

15 with scopes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I did put the question to you, then, in a

17 different way. Apart from optical sights, was there any targeting of

18 persons at a relatively long distance even if it would be without a

19 telescopic sight?

20 A. It was with great difficulty that we were able to observe the

21 people. I said we were in a lower position. On several occasions, one

22 guard position was not just looking in front of itself, but the guard

23 position was looking at that first one because -- to prevent the injuring,

24 so that people wouldn't be hit through the hole that you were watching

25 through. For instance, people were observing by watching through the rear

Page 15438

1 mirror of a lorry so that you see what's happening behind you because if

2 they were to shoot, then you wouldn't be hit. So we were observing with a

3 system of, say, of mirrors.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's not quite clear to me. Could you please ...

5 A. Because all of our positions were only on the ground level.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 A. You know, only on the ground level. There were 10 or 15 cases

8 that a person would be injured through the place that he was looking

9 through, even if it's a very small hole. So later on, for instance, if I

10 was in a guard position, I would be looking at the space in front of

11 another person's guard position, and he was looking at the space in front

12 of me. We were not looking at places in front ourselves because that's

13 how we avoided from being hit. Or if you understand, with a rear mirror,

14 we would be looking in the mirror to see the back.

15 JUDGE ORIE: My question was about targeting persons at a

16 relatively long distance, and you are telling me about how you had to

17 protect yourself from being shot. Is that correct?

18 A. No. Yes and no. We were not able to see at a great distance from

19 Nedzarici. We would only open fire in case of being attacked.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my last question: The weapons you had,

21 what was approximately the killing range as far as you know? And then I'm

22 talking about rifles.

23 A. Automatic rifle, I really don't know what its killing range is.

24 What it can go up to. I don't know that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's of no use targeting targets that are outside the

Page 15439

1 range, is it?

2 A. Yes, but I think that you cannot see as much with the naked eye,

3 as much as a rifle can hit.

4 JUDGE ORIE: At what distance would you target, for example, a

5 person or a vehicle with the rifles you had?

6 A. I didn't understand the question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you choose a target, would you say if it's further

8 away than 50 metres I would not even try because there's no chance to hit

9 the target in such a way that it would cause the result I would like to

10 achieve? Or would you say not over 200 metres or not over -- I mean, what

11 was the distance you thought it of any use to target either persons or

12 objects with the weapon you had, weapons you had?

13 A. Considering my sight, it would be about 80 to 100 metres

14 because --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please finish your answer.

16 A. Because everyone who served in the Yugoslav People's Army, we had

17 exercises in targeting and shooting for 50 metres. That was the outer

18 limit, 50 metres. Before the war, that's what an ordinary soldier would

19 hit.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers.

21 This concludes your testimony in this Court. I'd like to thank

22 you very much for coming to The Hague and to testify. You've answered a

23 lot of questions from both parties, and from the Bench. And I'd like to

24 thank you for that. And I wish you a safe trip home again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just say

Page 15440

1 something.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just want to thank the Chamber for

4 allowing me to testify. And in order just to tell you how it was, every

5 morning, at every dawn, a new day of hell began for us.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware that living in the war

7 circumstances has been extremely difficult for many citizens of Sarajevo.

8 We adjourn until next Monday. I think we're still in this same

9 courtroom, Madam Registrar, on Monday. And we only on Tuesday start

10 the -- and I think we are sitting in the morning, I think, if I'm -- or do

11 I make a mistake? We're sitting at the time indicated on the court

12 calendar, next morning in this courtroom. I wish everyone a pleasant

13 weekend. We're adjourned.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

17 November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25